The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero?  Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan?  That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm.

Plus having their union busted and collective bargaining rights taken away, while nothing happens to police and fire. I have less of an issue with them pushing cost cuts than with the existential battle picked by Walker--which, again, I'm not going to say he was wrong as a Republican to fight on.

bingo. I'm no fan of public unions and the ridiculous pension system that they have but this protest isn't all about their salary cuts and changes to the benefits, it's about Walker essentially proposing to destroy the public unions. It's about Walker's absurd rhetoric against the unions. It's about the fact that Wisconsin doesn't even need to be making these cuts, if it wasn't for the GOP's tax breaks. It's about the general idea that less and less of the best and brightest will decide to become public workers because of the wage cuts and benefit reductions. Remember, teachers don't only become teachers out of altruism, they also do it to make a living. The same goes for all other public workers.

Anyways these are standard Republican tactics for crushing unions and the working class. Create a big deficit by reducing taxes, then later getting angry about the budget deficit and calling for cuts in services and public worker pay. It happened at the federal level with Reagan and Bush. It's happening at the state level across the country. It's happening at the local count level as well. Now of course Democrats have their own budget problems and in many ways are as awful at the Republicans as managing the budget but at least they aren't as intellectually dishonest as Republicans. At least they don't campaign on lies as often and actually propose reforms to change systems as opposed to just making cuts.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Democrats in the Wisconsin state legislature actually proposed a series of amendments to strike out the parts of the bill that would get rid of the parts of the bill that got rid of the right to collectively bargain and form unions. Republicans didn't budge. That's what makes this so different from say the Health Care bill or FinReg. Sure when those bills were proposed they looked like they were going to rape Republican interest groups and were totally against GOP philosophy. Yet the Democrats allowed their amendments to go forward. Many Democrats voted for their amendments. They compromised. Naturally the GOP still put forward all roadblocks against both bills because they're bastards.

The GOP isn't doing that. They just want to destroy a group that works on behalf of the working class. This has nothing to do with the budget or good public policy. That's why the state legislature is revolting and doing something that I consider to be morally dubious. But what the Republicans are doing is absolutely wrong and deceitful so I support them.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

I agree with most of the guys here. Very few people would disagree with the reforms Torie mentioned. But the rest of Walker's bill and the exception of his political cronies from it are so odious that it's hard not to justify the public workers' outrage.

That part of the agenda is to 1) defund unions' campaign war chests,

And why should a union's war chest be defunded while private companies that bid for state contracts can spend freely to elect their buddies to positions of power?
If somebody wants clean elections and politicians that aren't beholden to special interests, he should bar both of them from raising and spending money for electoral reasons.

Partisan advantage. No, it can't be defended, just like exempting public safety employees cannot be defended. Not everything the GOP does is defensible. Who knew?

The problem is that people like you defend it. If krazen and wormy did it, nobody would bother.
But we've come to expect better than that from YOU.

Yeah Torie, I'm kind of disappointed in you. Your hatred of unions blinds you from the fact that this is a gross partisan powergrab that would cascade to other states if it was passed. For example my state wants to take away the collective bargaining rights of teachers now and replace teachers with laptops.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

The teacher's have no contract? That is what I infer when krazen said that the Dems attempt to force one through in the lame duck session was killed.  In which event, why is it necessary to pass this law at all?  Just tell the unions what you are willing to pay (looking at the whole compensation package, including pensions), and that you won't go any higher. Period. End of story. That takes this union busting card entirely off the table. It becomes solely a money card, and what I care about is money.

Torie returns to sanity, good.

For a second there I seriously thought that you were arguing for the busting of the unions.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Does anyone have any data on Wisconsin's debt/Wisconsin's debt to GDP ratio? Every site I've been to looks to either exaggerate data or be for teabaggers and all of them show different numbers. Forbes has a good interactive site that shows tax-supported debt, debt to GDP ratios etc but it's a year old.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

While I'm not surprised that the public sector workers are woefully under paid compared to the 'private' sector, I am surprised at the salary levels in your chart.  Most americans make around $12-15/hour, and most people I know with master's degrees wait at table.. so the chart seems a bit dubious.

Opebo, did you read the chart?

It says total compensation and not only that but it's for Wisconsin workers only.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

It says total compensation and not only that but it's for Wisconsin workers only.

That's still enormous salary.  Most people only get their $12-15/hour as total compensation, as they have no benefits.

I think it includes insurance coverage as a benefit. The source of chart didn't include anything on methodology though so I can't say for sure.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

And this is why America is screwed people. We can't even discuss the damn issue without immature responses and over hyper-sensitivity based gotcha moments. Part of the problem is the arrogance of some many on this damn forum. And I even mentioned this in the original damn posts. Grow up people, and get this thread back on topic.

Nah, I just think you're an idiot for thinking that the amount of racial tension there is, is somehow abnormal. When it comes to anti-immigrant tension, in the modern world this is completely normal. Nearly every western country on Earth besides Canada has or has had a culture of immigrant scapegoating and inflamed tension because of legal and illegal immigration. It's a pretty natural reaction but this time,as long as immigration doesn't stay so politicized which it probably will, the tensions should go away much quicker than historically because of mixed race marriage and rapid cultural diffusion.

When it comes to Blacks, well that takes absolutely no explanation. If anything relations are remarkably good for what has been done to their ethnic group over the centuries, it's only been a decade or two since rampant racist attitudes from whites have died out and yet we have a Black President. Strides are happening there. Black culture might be a little too insular but that's to be expected.

So overall, America is doing pretty average to well for a nation with our myriad cultures. It's still not the optimal situation and in an economic crisis without effective leadership they'd become violent and ultra-politicized very quickly. Oh wait, that situation is probably happening we're all f'ed!

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Wow, when even Rasmussen is showing numbers like that, you know the jig is up.

The Pubbies cannot afford to back down, and won't.

One already has, and we just need two more. There have to be at least two recently elected from marginal districts.

In Ohio a few Republican Senators buckled as well with regards to Kasich's nonsense.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

 Woah: http://www.livestream.com/theuptake

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Guys, watch the live stream I just posted. It's crazy.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

stop going to work

A general strike is a serious possibility at this point:"MikeElk: Wisc Firefighters Union President Joe Conway tells me there should be a general strike"

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

What a Pyrrhic victory, I see no way for Republicans in Wisconsin to rebound from this unless the protests get really, really, really violent tomorrow and there is more blowback from that. News coverage should be pretty universally negative on their legislative tactics and their rhetoric. Now that the debate is purely about collective bargaining rights vs. no collective bargaining rights and the Republicans can't hide behind the "OMFG budget crisis!!!" argument, they will lose even more popular support.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

2008 Democratic Senate seats with Kerry percentage:
Lena Taylor (4)- 80%
Spence Coggs (6)- 83%
Jim Holperin (12)- 46%
Mark Miller (16)- 58%
Robert Wirch (22)- 51%
Julie Lassa (24)- 51%
Fred Risser (26)- 75%
Dave Hansen (30)- 47%

I'd expect a big enthusiasm gap in favor of Democrats in these special elections.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

The polls were already against the Republicans.

They were also already against the Democrats - an inconvenient fact missed by many partisans.

With majority favorable opinion of teacher's unions and 57% disapproval for Walker?

With over 60% in favor of collective bargaining rights as well, which is now the only issue that will be debated upon.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

PPP:"Do you think public employees in Wisconsin should or should not have a right to collective bargaining for wages, benefits, and working environment rules?"

Should have a right to collective bargaining- 57%
Should not- 37%
Not sure- 7%

The public clearly will side with Scott Walker and the Republicans on this issue!!!

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Good news for Ohioans (from PPP):

Do you approve or disapprove of John Kasich's job performance?
Approve 35%
Disapprove 54%
Not sure 11%

More results here (http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_OH_0315513.pdf )showing doomsday news for Republicans. Lesson: don't mess with unions in states with a big working class/union tradition.