Bush is liberal.

[angus]

Bu$h is a liberal, no doubt.  I've been screaming this from the top of every building in San Francisco and they all think I'm nuts.  But, it doesn't really matter, does it?

I just got back from safeway where all reds were on sale for 20% off!  It's going to be another unproductive weekend.

On the way out, there were about 10 people with petitions spanning the range of topics from stem cell research to DNA testing by cops to two local schools closing.  I signed 'em all.  California loves populism.  So do I.

My country tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing.

[angus]

Hey agcat,
I will say I'm into constructionist justices; whether I agree with them or not is another issue.  Right on.

[angus]

Dean or Clinton were not liberals.

The term liberal is relative. It's differant for differant people. Clinton presented himself as a moderate. Dean presented himself as being ultra-liberal, whether he is or isnt is another story. I think they are both liberal. You think Bush is conservative. Its not a set in stone thing. All politicians form the two major parties are liberals. Its just to what degree they are liberal. However thats by American standards of what the term liberal means. To me, liberalism is based on government control. the bigger and more powerful the government, the more conservative it is. I consider myself a liberal in that I believe in absolute limited government. I am a year away from being able to vote, but I'm sure I will vote Libertarian in small local elections, because they are true liberals

That's apparently close the definition of liberal in Sweden, as was pointed out in another thread.  I once offered to accept and use that definition, but there were guffaws.  I offered a more logical one.  Lots of moaning over that too.  It reminds us of the fact that in any debate the first point of order is to define all terms.   Your definition is fine, and if it holds, then bush is both quite liberal and quite conservative, like the rest of us.

Television footage of Kerry campaigning today (in San Antonio and Houston for the largest slate of delegates remaining) showed Kerry offering several alternative definitions as well.  "If it's liberal to support no child left behind, and not just with lip-service, then I'm a liberal.  If it's liberal to ... then I'm a liberal."  Ad nauseum.

But, staying on topic, our definition was succinctly implied by Rightwingnut's original question.  By his implied definition (one of my favorites) Bush's agenda is liberal.  And both Dean and Clinton are more conservative.  Kerry is also a liberal.

[angus]

I think a lot of Republicans are making the mistake of thinking that the 'center' should be defined as some sort of median or mean point of the American electorate. I don't think it should, it should be made with the idelogical pronciples of the 2 sides as a strating point. This means that Republicans are clearly more extreme since they seem much closer to their ideal society, both in real life and in their rethorics. Dems are further from it, thus less extreme.

No.  The center is in your head.  You can put it anywhere you want.  I always do.  And besides, that misses the entire point of the debate.  It is not one of intensity, or magnitude, or placement of a fulcrum along an arbitrary scale.  The debate is about what arbitrary scale to use.  

Bush is a liberal (as is Kerry) by virtue of the fact that they're big spenders.  That's all.  This isn't complicated.

[angus]

I'll try again.  You buy a car.  It's expensive, so you buy comprehensive and collision insurance along with the state-mandated 40/20 PIP.  okay.  You wreck the car.  Dammit.  You have a 500 dollar deductible and the car has about 1700 dollars worth of damage.  So you ask for a 2200 dollar estimate from the body shop.  See how that works?  You see where I'm going with this.  You wanted a liberal estimate.  Or maybe  you want to apply sunlotion liberally on your back if you burn easily.  Or maybe you'd like a liberal amount of peanut butter on your bread (Bush likes JIF, by the way).  Conversely, if you're trying to sell your plan to install cable TV and carpeting in the state pen (after all, it's probably boring and lonely in there sometimes) you go to the voters with an underestimate hoping that, once they say yes, you can hit 'em with the real bill later.  Or if you want your wife (or mom or slut-of-the-month or whatever) to buy you something pretty, you give them a conservative estimate of the cost.  

Liberal, in this case meaning free or out-of-control, was implied by the question and by the link.  Any of you bother to look?  Conservative, then, finds it definition by contrast.  Quod erat demonstrandum.

[angus]

I know.  Just being an asshole.