Talk Elections

It begins!

First things first - where is our city, roughly?

I like my Le Havre idea, so if we mimick Le Havre, at the mouth of a major river and also one the shore of an important sea/ocean/channel whatever.

Well, as far as that kind of thing goes I like the idea of mixing docks with other heavy industry. But what should the language of this city be?

English :D

I like the idea of Le Havre geography wise (as I'm used to Atlantic port cities ;D) but I'd like a city...'British' in character I suppose; something split by class and area.

Maybe English would be best for this forum, but it would be interesting to have an historical linguistic minority.

Yes, a minority entirely gone/assimilated by now.

Actually, I nominate Pittsburgh circa 1950.  Certainly the on of the greatest experiments, and to date failures, of urban renewal... assuming you guys are still going that route, I have been out of the loop for a very long time.

You guys should probably just design your own city, though.  I think that idea had merit.

Yeah, I like an industrial city with docks and heavy industry and some very strong Labour-voting constituencies, so long as there are enough Tory and swing seats that either party can form a majority in council. Perhaps also a popularly elected Mayor, as well?

That's why I like my Le Havre idea - there are some wealthy areas, sometimes very wealthy, areas within the city itself in addition to some very rich suburbs (like Ste Adresse is to Le Havre) save for the dirt-poor industrial suburbs (like Gonfreville-L'Orcher is to Le Havre)

Hmmm... I'm searching for that emoticon that is just a middle finger waving back and forth.

Well the plan (this time round :)) is to design a rough outline of a city, and then incorporate a degree of real detail into specific areas - if this is to be a city historically dependent on heavy industry, then parts of Pittsburgh would work fine.

Le Havre actually looks pretty good (on Google Maps) - not too large, but large enough to be financially able to make lots of decisions.

I constructed an entire metropolitan area if you're interested...

However, it has its flaws.  I suspect it's too white-collary for you, Al, more like the Columbus or Twin Cities metropolitan area of present than the types of places you like ;)

Just for reference vis-a-vis income;

FTR, I have no problem with integrating parts of various cities into this city... or its suburbs. Either in terms of housing, industry etc. Le Havre is just a basic idea for geography, and maybe income structure and polarization (which would make things fun).

I agree. I'm already working on two parts of Glasgow I'd like to integrate into the model.

So Le Havre for the basic outline of the city, mixed heavy industrial base (the docks, yes, but also other industries often found near the coast - steelworks, say. Maybe chemical factories. And I think we can work in some incorporated mining villages on the fringes of the city (btw, presuming industrial surrounds for the city makes it easy to concentrate the bourgeois parts of the city - which seems to be one of the attracts of Le Havre). This gives us a pretty diverse city in some respects. I think we could also give it an older centre, perhaps with a cathedral. It should also have a university - late 19th century probably). Anyway. I'll post a couple of test maps this afternoon.

I have a (oh no not again) Glasgow based solution to where to site the middle class; hills. The west end of Glasgow boomed post 1850 when it became easier to construct sweeping terraces on hilly ground (Glasgow is peppered with 'drumlins'). Places like Hyndland are seperated from working class areas by a 40 degree gradient approach. High living meant you lived above the smog. It's also an interesting class metaphor :)

I would suggest a couple of working class estates in the suburbs. The city probably would have been bombed during the war and these would have been built to house people who were bombed out.

We have these in London.

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Outline of the City (presuming it has city status) at the beginning of the game.

Lends itself nicely, again, to Le Havre ;)

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=49.500465,0.140247&spn=0.065776,0.181789&t=p&z=13

Aside from San Francisco, the only city I really know is Dhaka. I suppose you don't want that.

Actually, voting patterns in Melbourne are quite interesting. It's numerous municipalities across the greater Melbourne area, but has very distinct Conservative/Labour areas (or Liberal vs Labor, given that we're talking about Australia). I put a couple of primary vote maps in the gallery the other day, but I'll put in another few showing seats parties won, etc).

Here are the links (I won't post the image because it'll create a large post which doesn't relate precisely to the thread).

These three maps are the Upper House vote recorded, but done according to the Lower House electorate. This is to try to anull any personal vote an incumbent might have in the Lower House (since the Upper House is predominantly a vote for a particular party).

Greens vote: https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/GALLERY/2482_09_09_09_3_16_35.PNG
Labor vote: https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/GALLERY/2482_09_09_09_3_17_54.PNG - look particularly at the Melbourne map (top one). You can very clearly see Labor's heartland in the west, north-west and south-east. The pink areas are typically upper-middle class to wealthy and the red areas (excluding the inner city, where the greens polled well, thus drawing down the Labor vote) are predominantly your average suburbia/swing seats.
Liberal vote: https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/GALLERY/2482_09_09_09_3_18_54.PNG - not specifically about Melbourne, but some of the lightly-shaded areas in rural Victoria are strong National Party areas - so the Liberal Party did poorly but they're still very conservative.

Here is the election result, showing which party won each seat. The Independent was an incumbent, and an incumbent independent was defeated in Mildura, in the state's north-west corner. Two seats are 2PP Nationals vs Liberals, and four are Labor vs Greens - read my comments for details: https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/GALLERY/2482_16_09_09_11_29_49.PNG

This is the result of which party received the most votes in the Upper House, according to the Lower House electorate. It's effectively the same as the numerous maps on the site for FPTP elections in other countries, although minor party votes are probably inflated, given that this was STV rather than FPTP. https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/GALLERY/2482_16_09_09_11_44_36.PNG

I like the idea of chemical factories and steelworks. I think both foundaries and petrochemical factories are the sorts of heavy industry that frequently are surrounded by low-income working class households.

An added dimension with Pittsburgh, of course, is the many established neighborhoods, and topography.  In terms of those neighborhoods, it is very easy to track their historical development, even if you aren't from the area.

Yes I noticed that from Street View

Though I'll post a Glasgow example to show what I mean

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Am about to try a fairly basic landuse map - commercial, residential, industrial, parks-woods-etc. Though it's worth pointing out that, if we assume this is an English speaking city (as seems to have been agreed), then people will be living in some of the industrial areas (which I don't think is the case with Le Havre) and to a lesser extent in the commericial core.

True; and to a greater extent if this is set in the 50's. It would also be the areas most likely to simply be cleared of housing all together if the city council was being brutal with redevelopment.

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As for the letters...

C: Cathedral
T: Town Hall
U: University
FS: Football Stadium
SW: Steelworks
PS: Power Station
M: Mine

White represents open ground and etc.

Edit: shipbuilding goes on in the far south of the main industrial-port area.

Oh yes, we need a name for the city.

After that the fun stuff starts - dividing the city into bits and then... but we need a name first.

Perhaps something with 'port' or 'mouth' at the end of it. Or maybe just a simple 'borough' (or burgh ;) )

What about Alunsborough? ;D

Modesty forbids :P

Think it should have "by" on the end. Because Vikings are cool and we nicked the outline for this city from somewhere in Normandy ;D

Alunsby? :)

How about Port Alunsby?

Stovesby? That has a nice sound to it.

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Please note that the areas shown are not wards. Wards will be subject to change and will have some relationship to population. They are, rather, recognised districts of the city, areas with a lot in common even if not united for electoral purposes. The colours are those of an extremely crude class pattern - the assumption is that the game will start in about 1955 or so.

And they are also a good way of getting this to work out well.

What you do now is simple - declare an interest in a couple of districts. And then once we've sorted all that out, write stuff up (quite detailed if thou like) about them. Some notes (in part just to save you the bother of trying to stick one map on top of the other) to help out:

I contains the commercial core of the city, as well as the Cathedral, the Town Hall and various cultural amenities. It's also the only area I'll make a class note on - while it's a middle class area at the start of the game, it won't remain one unless some very strange things happen with urban planning. So don't go overboard wi' that.

Talking of cultural amenities, IX includes the main football ground.

III contains the University and, obviously, most of city's students. The main railway station is in IV.
 
XIII looks to be commuter villages overrun by suburban developments. VII is probably filthy rich.

I think you can all work out for yourselves where the docks are, even without checking the other map ;D, but steelworks be found in IX,X and XXII. XV includes a coal power station (marked on the map) and chemical works (not marked), amongst other things (maybe refinaries and stuff. You get the picture). Outside the main industrial zones (ie; around the port and the old mining towns), there is an industrial estate in XX, which you might have missed.

XX and XXI are, quite obviously, large interwar council estates. XXII is a collection of mining towns and industrial areas recently added to the city, while XVII is a mining village overrun with overspill estates.

And finally, hardly anyone lives in XIX right now. This is intentional. It's a pretty obvious target for some of those delightful new tower blocks, but we aren't there yet.

I'd love to do this, I'm just afraid I don't know that much about culture/politics/society in the time period in question.

Southport VII it is for me then ;D

What is II like?


A good place to check what your region is like is to look up the city of Sainte-Adresse.

The idea is for it to be a working class area squeezed between the higher ground and the city centre. Ie; a working class area because of flooding and being on the wrong side of the old town walls, rather than because of docks and industry. Either largely early 19th century slumland or by-law housing (by-law housing = the straight rows of terraced cottages stereotypically associated as being "typical" traditional English/Welsh working class housing and largely built after local authorities started to demand a few minimum standards for housing (late 19th century). Proper slum housing looked very different), though likely a mixture of the two. Probably a lot of the orginal population lives in XX by 1955.

What's the second-richest region after VII? I obviously want a right-wing wealthyland area.

Up to you ;D

But I'd have guessed VI from where it is. Maybe VIII. The other outer-blues are probably more in the way of standard middle class interwar suburbia. In the early 20th century the richest would have been III, obviously, but urban decay in such places had already set in by the '50's.

Oh, don't worry about that. I know more about it than is exactly healthy, and the same goes for a couple of other people. And all will happily share information, I'm sure.

I think I'd like VIII, unless Hashemite wants it. If he wants it, I'd appreciate XIII.

I found this website about Le Havre: http://www.ville-lehavre.fr/delia-CMS/quartier/index/article_id-/topic_id-456/danton-rond-point.html - Google can translate, I think. It might give some ideas about some of the areas out there.

Wonder where I go here. XIII?

I'd like XIII on the condition that it's also wealthy. If not, then I.

Just stay away from any area that has green space around it. Then the town planners will drop in a few concrete tower blocks and voila; 5000 'socialist' voters on your patch :) They can even build the damn things in time for an election...

If you want it to be wealthy, it certainly can be. You can also incorporate features from anywhere you like, so long as they fit in with what's already been established.

So how many wards will there be in the city - and roughly how many wards per district?

Don't know yet :)

Just in case this all seems a little intimidating :) I'll do IV to give an example of how 'tis done, etc.

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IV - St Jude's

East of the old city walls and west of the inner port, St Jude's is a densely populated working class district and a minor industrial area. It was largely built before the onset of by-law housing and is home to Stoveby's worst slums, some of which were cleared by bombing in the War. Housing in St Jude's, beyond being largely unsuitable for human habitation, is noted for its unusual architecture and (according to public health officials) dangerous high stairs originally built for flood protection:

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Employment is dominated by various small workshops in the district, by the port and railways, and by low order public sector and service jobs in the city centre. The population of the district has been falling since the council house construction boom that followed the Wheatley Act, but the area remains overcrowded, a situation not improved by the destruction of parts of the district during the war. St Jude's also includes the city's main railway station.
St Jude's has been a Socialist stronghold since the early 1920's and the area is regarded as dangerous one by activists for other parties - reports of canvassers being thrown down the district's characteristic long stairs, while never confirmed, have entered the political folklore of Stovesby.

I'll call VI.  My idea for VI is that it sits at a crossroads for the city as a kind of "second business district" where a number of wealthy merchants and such live in a combination of modest mansions and townhouses, next to their businesses, or at least transportation to their businesses, if they happen to be downtown or in the manufacturing districts.  Does that mesh with your conception?

For the most part, though, no too many uber-wealthy people live in VI... based on my conception... but many many people of considerable means.

... Waiting for confirmation, Al.  If it meets will your approval, I'll have something drawn up quickly.

Yeah, having it as an early (ie; late 19th century) "villa suburb" makes a great deal of sense. Good idea.

Still fighting over whether to take XIII and I... both are appealing!

VI - North Liberty

Most residents, if asked to identify the city's second downtown, would immediately point to North Liberty.  This neighborhood, which sits on an area of relatively flat land between the industrial lowlands, and residential highlands serves as meeting point for many of the main transit arteries of the city, and a central hub for the surrounding neighborhoods, both upper and lower class.

Here, expensive boutiques share storefronts with common shops, and people of all financial means shop side-by-side in the bustling business district, while sharing street cars to their jobs and homes.

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This is a far cry from what you would have seen just a century ago.  In the 1850's, most of this land was taken up by the cow pastures that give it it's name ("Liberty" being an old term for a plot of commonly-held grazing land).  As small village existed at a cross roads in the area.  This began to change, however, when two of those cross roads were turned into turnpikes, and the sleepy area outside of the city controlled access within.  Inns and small stores popped up at the junction, followed by homes, department stores, and other developments.  The turnpikes were dissolved in 1899, but by then the small village was a booming center of commerce; which was then annexed by the city in 1908 (still a sore spot with some of the old time residents).

This history of late development has lent to the neighborhood's wide, sweeping streets, and relatively uncongested appearance.

St. George Parish, a beautiful, ornate church, rivaling the Cathedral itself, is a symbol of the community and source of local pride.

A few of the cities great financial and industrial kings own significant estates in the neighborhood, but for the most part, much of the housing is densely packed, though decidedly upper-scale row housing for the merchants who own businesses in the area.

Like much of the city, North Liberty was damaged during the war.  And though recovery was swift, the opportunity given by newly available land, the slow advance of urban decay, and the designs of urban planners leave the future of this neighborhood uncertain.

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On a side note, I based this neighborhood almost entire off of the neighborhood of East Liberty in Pittsburgh, which is a couple blocks from my apartment and was itself a victim of urban renewal, 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Liberty_%28Pittsburgh%29

We'll as we're being local ;D This area is based on places like Ayr and Helensburgh

VII - Culzeansands (pronounced 'Cuh-ley-an Sands')

This area was once a former fishing village nestled in sand dunes. It was swallowed up by the mid-19th century expansion of the urban area and with it came the construction of grand Georgian and Victorian sandstone terraces and smaller townhouses. While the area, through choice, did not become a 'kiss me quick' summer resort, it still maintains a healthy seasonable tourist trade. It's houses are well kept and expensive. It's inhabitants are outward looking, at least to those on middle class 'jollies' from the city and elsewhere. It remained an independent burgh until local authority re-organisation in 1927

Culzeansands is home to a summer arts and cultural fair 'The Flibbertygibbert' on The Sands and is home to the regionally famous Princes Theatre and the Maritime Museum. A coastal tram operates in the area connecting with transport services further south. The sand dunes are very popular with ramblers and bird spotters.

Politics; Centre-right/ European liberal

Local areas; St Andrew's, Muckle Ferry, Zelburgh, Kirklachlan, Trondwick

You can do both if you want ;D

Btw, if you want some examples of British civic architecture (which you'll need if you're doing I) then I can find a lot very quickly. There's a lot of variety as cities sort of competed against each other for the fanciest town hall in the second half of the 19th century. Actually, I'll send a few now. Though the name of I is probably very dull - maybe just City or something like that - feel free to choose a French name for XIII; there was a fashion for French stuff with early suburban developers. And the translations were often very bad.

Glasgow City Chamber ftw on that one :) I was there at the weekend; i'll need to upload pictures.

True (and I forgot about that one in the PM I sent him - must have been distracted by the self-loving horror that is Cardiff City Hall ;D).

Well, if I can take both, I'll happily do so! :)

Indeed you can, indeed you can.

I want one. But I don't know which. :(

I suppose, honestly, I'd love to have a general tutorial over everything if that's at all possible. :)

I'll take XX, please.

Bump!

For VIII, I'm thinking it's probably sort of two in one. The half to three-quarters closest the city is upper-middle class, professionals who work in the city, are quite well off but can't afford to live in VII, and therefore live slightly further out, commuting daily. The outer half/quarter is more recent development, still middle to upper-middle class, but been built more recently and more resembles suburbia. The closer part is made up of larger older houses and is considered "leafy" (I assume you use the same adjective in the UK?).

Am I on the right track?

EDIT: I'm pretty sure this was my last post in the thread, so I'm going to develop VIII here, rather than a new post later which is going to be after your later post on the various city wards.

VIII - St Alban and Sunnybrae

The suburb of St Alban to the north of Stovesby Centre was initially settled by industrialists and bankers in a period of Stovesby's rapid growth during the Industrial Revolution. St Alban has always been considered attractive due to its nearness to the city. Many of the homes date from the late-Victorian era, and the tree-lined streets are still desirable.

In more recent years, wealthier citizens have moved to the costal suburbs to the west, however St Alban has remained an upper-middle to upper class suburb. Most residents are professionals in financial and legal fields, who work in the city.

St Alban is well-serviced by public transport, with an extensive light rail/tram network from the city centre running up most major roads.

Further out from St Alban, the middle- to upper-middle class suburb of Sunnybrae has recently been developed. Only two of the tram routes servicing St Alban currently service Sunnybrae, and few residents can rely on public transport to get to work. Improvement of public transportation has been a hot-button issue in Sunnybrae, and the last council election saw a popular (albeit losing) independent running a single-issue campaign on the expansion of the tram network in the area.

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Photo: Davis Avenue, St Alban, is a fairly typical street in this leafy suburb. Photo courtesy of Google Earth.

Yes, I think you certainly are.

XIII: Saint Michael

Saint Michael was originally sparsely populated farmland, with Saint Michael being the name given to a small coastal hamlet whose economic survival depended on farming. Like adjacent Culzeansands, this farming economy was overrun by urban growth and some grand Georgian and Victorian terraces and smaller townhouses were built along the coastal cliffs.

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Growth inland was much slower, and it only started becoming a suburban area after World War II, with the construction of the city's small airport. As opposed to the very affluent coastal areas of the district, areas inland tend to be more middle-class and the townhouses are more modest. Compared to the coast, it has more of a suburbia feel to it.

Most people in the district commute to work in the city, though some work at the small airport.

Saint Michael has been a traditionally right-wing area, though the left has some strength in poorer social housing parcels around the airport.

Areas: Stovesby-Saint Michael Airport Lands, La Côte, Old Saint Michael (both coastal), Stovesby West, Walsh Acres (inland areas)

I: Stovesby Centre

The Centre district is the core of the city, and is home to the city's main white-collar business district, the City Hall and the Cathedral. Although very active in daytime, the core has a relatively low population, because many of the people working in the district commute there.

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The Centre is a relatively well-off middle-class area, though there has been development of cheaper public housing in some parts of the district. A considerable share of the population live in costly flats overlooking the small yacht's harbour (Old Harbour) and the seafront. The Old Harbour, which used to be the city's main harbour before the Industrial Revolution, is now an affluent promenade lined with cafes and popular with tourists.

Stovesby Centre is a right-wing area, due to its largely upper middle-class inhabitants.

Areas: Old Stovesby, Old Harbour, Cathedral Park, Royal Square (where the city hall et al is).

Not sure if posh flats overlooking the old harbour is exactly "period", but the rest is good. And in parts excellent.

Well, newer posh flats overlooking a recently transformed harbour (from old, small and early industrial harbour to a yacht/wealthy people's boats harbour with touristy areas), but I understand that may not be post-War fitting, and is possibly more 80s-90s.

Thanks, btw.

Yeah, it's something that'll probably happen at some point if the game gets that far. I'll be doing a few other districts when I get back from my work in a few hours, btw. If we can crack on now, we might be close to starting next week or so.

XX: Willow Tree

Once the grounds of a rather wealthy abbey (before it was demolished in a religious upheaval), the 1930s saw Willow Tree become the scene of a large council estate.

This estate, consisting of rather uniform terraced houses with individual gardens, small parades of shops every so often and a fair number of allotments, is basically an area that took a lot of emigrants from St. Jude's and other such areas before and after the war. Much of its population commute into the centre of the city on a daily basis as local leisure facilities are somewhat spartan- the local swimming pool, the Willow Tree Pool, is an outdoor pool not considered for the faint-hearted in winter. The libraries are good though.

A small local tram network, originally used in the building of the estate, is still in operation, although is in dire need of an upgrade.

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Areas: Willow Tree, Marringtree, Four Princes, Oldbridge, Sutton Hill, Deepchurch and Pine Tree.

II: Low Town

Hemmed in between the sea wall, the northern railway line and the cliffs, Low Town has the unenviable reputation of being the worst slum in Stovesby outside the St Jude's district. Low Town was largely constructed in the first half of the 19th century - while an area to the west of the industrial districts might seem an unlikely place for a slum, the unhealthy, marshland of the area and the then constant threat of flooding explains a great deal. Low Town is dominated by gloomy courts and (towards the east) grim Scottish-style tenements, employment is largely unskilled and death rates are abnormally high. The area was devastated by bombing during the War and its population has halved since 1931 - despite this, the area remains overcrowded. Politically, Low Town was a paradoxical Conservative stronghold until the mid '30's; the large Irish population voted for them in municipal elections because of the education issue, the rest of the population because of jingoism, the promise of Social Imperalism and anti-Irish sentiment. Extreme residential segregation made it surprisingly easy to build a successful electoral coalition from apparently opposing elements. In part due to their reputation as a party of the Trade Unions and the better off Working Class, the Socialists polled poorly in Low Town until radical housing and slum clearance plans became a staple of their election literature. Since the mid '30's Low Town has voted strongly Socialist, though turnouts are low.

IX: Isaacstown

Isaacstown is a classic, almost streotypical, example of a traditional Working Class district. It is largely made up of row upon row of terraced housing, includes Fineeg Park (the home of Stovesby AFC), large numbers of factories, a small steelworks and much of the waterfront of the inner docks. A traditional stronghold of Trade Unionism, Isaacstown was the Socialists first stronghold in Stovesby and remains one of the Party's strongest districts. Longterm concerns exist about the future of the steelworks, but this is, in general, not an area with many social problems.

XXII - Ardthorpe

The former Urban District of Ardthorpe was incorporated, against the wishes of its inhabitants,  into Stovesby in 1953. The UD comprised the industrial towns of Ardthorpe and Donsett (home to a large steelworks), two pit villages and an overspill estate. There are serious concerns about industrial pollution in the west of the district. The area is heavily industrial and utterly Working Class and, unsurprisingly given its three collieries, local politics is dominated by the Miners union. The old Ardthorpe UD was a Socialist stronghold (the Party typical won all contested seats with the exception of the occasional Independent or Independent Socialist) something that has not changed with incorporation.

XIX - Hellsby Wood

The parish of Hellsby Wood was added to Stovesby in the same boundary changes which brought in Ardthorpe. It was originally part of Saltforth Rural District and is largely fields and wasteland. There are old industrial facilities on the boundary with Ardthorpe, a few farmhouses, the Hellsby Colliery and a few rows of terraced housing near the pit. That's about all.

XI - Sanker

Largely developed in the last three decades of the nineteenth century, Sanker is a mixture of by-law terraces and (near the river) industrial facilities, including several large factories. It is an unremarkable Working Class district with strongly Socialist voting patterns and no serious social problems. Local politics is dominated by the Engineering union.

V - Shaddyside

Its name apparently a result of its position under the cliffs, the Shaddyside is a large and diverse area largely developed between 1820 and 1880 and is Stovesby's traditional immigrant district. A majority of people in the district are of Irish descent, but was also the historic home of the city's Jews. The tradition of immigration has continued and the Shaddyside now has the largest population of Commonwealth migrants in the city. Housing is of a decidedly mixed quality, ranging from crumbling slums to Stovesby's first council houses (which are generally of a very high quality). The area was once a Liberal stronghold but has voted Socialist since the 1920's (with the exception of 1931). Political life is, however, decidedly fractious and internal stich-ups and messy deselections have become common.

X-Stovesby Island

Stovesby Island was once an unassuming stretch of saltmarsh to the southwest of Stovesby. Industrialisation brought major changes; the construction of the inner docks and the Ship Canal seperated the area from the mainland and the area was turned over to purposes of heavy industry. The waterfront of the largest of the inner docks, Leip Dock, is on Stovesby Island as are many facilities relating to the massive outer docks. Stovesby Island is also home to a vast landscape of warehouses and small factories and foundaries, as well as a large modern steelworks. The area is connected to the mainland by two bridges, a railway bridge into the heart of Stovesby and a road bridge linking Stovesby Island to the homes of the bulk of its workforce in Isaacstown and Sanker. But Stovesby Island is not without a resident population; when the docks were built so to were houses for dockers, generally of an appalling quality and small size. Most of these were bombed out during the War, but some survive and remain in a dreadful state. Stovesby Island has traditionally been united with Isaacstown for electoral purposes.

XV - Outer Docks and Industrial Estates

There's no need to say much as no one lives here. The area includes the things that the name suggests (and also a coal-fired power station). It is probably Stovesby's economic hub, though was only incorporated into the city in fits and starts (between 1923 and 1952).

XVI - Eastridge

Eastridge is perhaps not the most interesting part of Stovesby. A largely rural area as late as the 1920's, it is now dominated by classic interwar suburbia (much of it ribbon development). Though there are a few small estates, it is largely owner-occupied and middle class. While affluent rather than rich and lower middle class rather than truely bourgeois, its residents are nonethless well aware of the social gulf between Eastridge and the likes of Shovington or even Upper Stovesby. Local politics in Eastridge has long been dominated by the Eastridge Residents Association, but votes solidly Tory in national elections. There is a Socialist vote in Eastridge, but it isn't large enough to win or even come close.

XVIII - Upper Stovesby

Upper Stovesby is not a name that many of the residents of this diverse slice of suburbia would use to describe where they live - the area includes owner-occupied suburbia from the interwar period and more recently, along with several 1930's council estates. It is, on balance, more working class than middle class but not by a massive amount. Plans exist for more council housing to be built in the area, but details have not been agreed on and the matter has stalled. Politically it contains a mixture of strongholds for both parties and an unusual amount of swing territory for a city as polarised as Stovesby.

XVII - Shovington

The pit village of Shovington was built in the middle of the nineteenth century, an active colliery remains in the area and much of the district still has the feel of a mining community. But Shovington changed beyond recognition in the 1930's as overspill estates physically linked the area to Stovesby and as a huge new industrial estate was developed north of the old village. As a mixture of council estates and miners cottages, Shovington is predictably Socialist. The Miners union remains a considerable force in local politics, though (unlike Ardthorpe) it doesn't have total control over candidate selection.

XIV - Frodsby

Named for the former parish of Frodsby, this district is much like Eastridge being largely comprised of interwar suburbia and being large middle class. There are, however, several notable differences. The first is that it includes a large section of Wedlock Wood (leading, in turn, to higher property prices than Eastridge), the second is that there is no Residents Association in Frodsby. It is, however, not uniformly Conservative in municipal politics - the Municipal Liberal Association remains unusually active in the area and only lost its last councillor in 1951.

XII - Gawther

Gawther is essentially a mixture of by-law housing and (towards its eastern end) interwar suburbia, including council estates. It is a largely working class area, but not to the extent of Sanker or Isaacstown (and has considerably higher average rates than both). Gawther only swung to the Socialists in 1945 and the Party has yet to consolidate its hold over it - it appears prone to bolt away from the Party in poor years (in contrast to the districts to its south) and concerns exist about the possibility of a backlash against the Commonwealth immigration into the neighbouring Shaddyside district. It is, however, one of the few usually Socialist parts of Stovesby where candidate selection is not dominated by union branches.

II - Chamberlain

Chamberlain was Stovesby's first real suburb - an area built to allow the bourgeoisie to escape from the industrial fumes of St Jude's and the noise, small houses and horse dung of the old town. Large houses with huge gardens were initially the norm, though as time went by the area became more and more a perfect example of villa suburbia. The University of Stovesby has been based in Chamberlain since 1882 and its foundation can perhaps be seen as the high point of Chamberlain's existence. Since the end of the First World War things have started to change. Many Chamberlain residents were no longer satisfied with life in villadom and moved out into the new suburbs. The area is moving downmarket over the longterm, a process that has been accelerated by the development of a new red-light district on the Chamberlain side of the old town walls. The leadership of the Municipal Conservatives have concerns about the longterm safety of what was once their greatest stronghold, but have not voiced this in public.

XXI - Hellsby

Hellsby is the largest building site in the city. Although home to several 1930's estates it remained largely rural until recently - when the city council decided that it was the idea location for a massive council estate, larger even than Willow Tree. House by house and year by year, the Hellsby plan is coming into fruition... though criticisms have been levelled at the slow pace of construction.

...so we just need SMC Ltd.* to do its job and Stage One will be complete. Yay :)

*Smid Metalworking and Construction. See what I did there.

Couple of notes...

1. I'm working on a provisional ward map at the moment (won't be final until Smid develops the last district).

2. I'm also making changes to the rules to make the game more intimate (so that the game can easily be played with only a small handful), more unknowable (so that much of what goes on will go on between the players only - the GM will not be party to deals between one PC and another) and easier to run in general.

Anyway...

The provisional ward map:

As the game moves on, the ward map will change. At this stage the oldest parts of the city are heavily over-represented - this won't be the case later on.

()

I'll explain a bit about how wards will work in the game now, just because.

Basically, there will be no registration by ward. Instead, you will register by district... and not only where your PC lives, but (if you want) where they work, where they own property and so on. Essentially, in order to run in a ward in a given election a PC will have to have some formal link to the district that it is in. Only residence must be on the 'white' form - the rest can all be kept on the 'black' (private) form if you wish. In order to stand in a given ward you must be selected as a candidate for that ward - I'll probably waive this for the first election and it will usually be a formality in later ones (though not always).

There will be three councillors per ward - the overwhelming will be NPC's, obviously.

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=102332.msg2189369#msg2189369 - Just so you can see what I've done. Am happy to adapt it if necessary (travelling for the next few days, but after that). I'll delete this post later so it doesn't get in the way.

Other than St Albans perhaps being confused with St Albans, that's fine :)

I'm not quite sure I follow. Is there a St Albans that is too famous for this to have one? There's a St Albans in Melbourne (which I presume was named after somewhere in Britain) which is a really working class area, but I always thought it sounded like a nice name.

Yeah, St Albans in Hertfordshire. Though St Alban or even St Alban's would cause no problems.

Corrected!

A minor error - now fixed. Thanks.

Can I propose a slight edit to IX? I'd like it to be my area of residence and to be a bit more focussed on docks and dockworkers. I'd suggest it to be the center f the Irish and Catholic presence in Stovesby, and dominated by a combination of the church and the G&TWU. There are certainly protestants in town, though, but no or very few immigrants.

I'd also suggest a name change if possible to East Stovesby, in keeping with the idea of it being built rapidly in the 1860s or so as the port grew and the area was developed as part of the expanision of Stovesby. I think it's important that the area Was built as an outlier that then just got accidentally surrounded by circumstance, but is still not culturally integrated with the rest of the city.

East Stovesby (or Port Stovesby or Newtown or whatever) would basically be somewhere that largely self-regulated; underfunded by the council with the difference largely made up by the church, it votes for the MSP but mainly because the MSP candidates are always Catholic in the area, and the other parties never nominate Catholics at all. I don't think reliion should play a major role in the game (certainly it should be a Protestant city) but the dockworkers should have a historical link to Ireland and a still firm link to the Catholic church.

It's 3:30am here so this might not be fully fleshed out, but let me know what you think.

Not a bad idea actually (dockers were as often Irish Catholics in Britain as in your part of the world). What I'll probably do is split the area along the ward boundaries I drew, so that the area near the docks fits in with your description, while the bit further north sticks to Labour Aristocracy stereotypes.

I'll be putting all of these descriptions into an easy-to-get-through thread and some point (and changing a few minor details here and there to 'fit') later today, probably, so I'll do it there.

Idea for a little bit more character within areas: suburbs.

Ta-Da! The Northwest. Obviously this isn't canon but I thought it might be a good idea. Also, the suburbs can change names if you don't like them. I tried to choose already listed names where possible.

()

XX: Willow Tree (top)
Y: Deepchurch
W: Sutton Hill
B: Willow Tree
P: Manningtree
R: Oldbridge
G: Four Princes

XIII: Saint Michael (2nd to top)
Y: Almawood
W: Old Saint Michael
B: La Côte
P: East Saint Michael
R: Aviation City
G: Walsh Acres

VII: Culzeansands (lower west)
Y: Culzeansands
W: Trondwick
B: Kirklachlan
P: St. Andrew's
R: Muckle Ferry
G: Zelburgh

VIII: St Alban and Sunnybrae (Central)
Y: Murrumburgh
W: Chadstone
B: Sunnybrae
P: Sunnybrae Fields
R: St Alban
G: St Alban South

VI: North Liberty (southeast)
Y: Soult
W: Shepp's Hills
B:  Francistown
P: North Liberty
R: North Liberty Junction
G: Dromesby St. George's

I listed the various areas of St. Michael in my post on that:

Stovesby-Saint Michael Airport Lands, La Côte, Old Saint Michael (both coastal), Stovesby West, Walsh Acres (inland areas)

Central:

()


I: Central (southwest)
Y: Oldhaven
W: Stovesby Heath
B: Royal Square
P: Cathedral Park
R: Old Stovesby
G: The City

II: Low Town (northwest)
Y: Liardet
W: Francismouth
B: Point Sentinel
P: Low Town
R: Creagh's Rise
G: Creagh's Marsh

III: Chamberlain (central)
Y: Stovesby University
W: Envoy's Grange
B: Chamberlain
P: North Chamberlain
R: South Chamberlain
G: Oxbridge Village

IV: St. Jude's (southeast)
Y: St. Jude's Quay
W: Wallside
B: Gallowfield
P: Gallowfield West
R: St. Jude's
G: Farrer's Cliff

V: Shaddyside (northeast)
Y: Gardendale
W: Old Shaddyside
B: Shaddyside Parks
P: High Shaddyside
R: Shaddy Willows
G: Lower Shaddyside

OK, I'll change McCutcheon's Inlet to La Côte; Saint Michael Town to Old Saint Michael and Gardendale to Walsh Acres. Where would Stovesby West fit in? Maybe a Stovesby North could be possible? Also I really like the name Aviation city but I'll change it if you want :)

Also, some of these are too big or too small to be suburbs, so maybe these are precincts or some other type of collection zone? Certainly I think we need to have something to recognise distinctions below the Ward level, but I don't know if this is perfect. I'll finish them off anyway.

Northeast:

()

XIV: Frodsby (southwest)
Y: Frodsby South
W: Frodsby
B: Wedlock South
P: Frodsby East
R: Frodsby West
G: Wedlock North

XVIII: Upper Stovesby (north)
Y: Upfield
W: Thornburgh
B: West Starnton
P: New North Stovesby
R: Starnton
G: Churchill Gardens

XVI: Eastridge (southeast)
Y: Eastridge Meadows
W: Dundas
B: Eastridge Springs
P: Dundas Estate
R: Eastridge Heights
G: Darlingdale

Inner East:

()

X: Stovesby Island (south)
Y: Reum's Canal
W: Leip Quay
B: Healestown
P: West Stovesby Island
R: East Stovesby Island
G: Southern Sandplains

IX: Isaacstown (west)
Y: Connaght Town
W: North Isaacstown
B: New Port
P: Reumtown
R: East Stovesby
G: Isaacstown

XI: Sanker (east)
Y: Sanker Village
W: Milfage
B: North Sanker
P: East Sanker
R: West Sanker
G: Berrigan

XII: Gawther (north)
Y: Gwydir
W: Gawther
B: Parkville
P: Gawther Acres
R: Millheath Estate
G: Roeville

Outer East
XXII: Ardthorpe
Y: Styre Ponds
W: Ardthorpe Colliery and Pity Us
B: Ardthorpe
P: Donsett
R: Low Ardthorpe Riverside
G: Henderson Estate

XVII: Shovington
Y: Daffodil Dale Estate
W: North Shovington
B: Rosette Estate
P: Shovington Industrial Estate
R: Shovington
G: New Shovington

XXI: Hellsby
Y: Collierstown
W: Summerdell
B: Phillipton
P: Lake Elizabeth
R: Willows Estate
G: Hellsbyton

XIX: Hellsby Wood
Y: McCutcheon's Inlet
W: Lodwick
B: Farthing
P: Hellsby Wood
R: South Hellsbyton
G: Blighville

XV: Outer Docks and Industrial Estates
Y: Webber Dock
W: Petroleum City
B: Cardinia
P: Shallowmarsh
R: Lewes Spit
G: Lewes River

(actual divisions in map below)

CITY-WIDE MAP OF SPECIFIC LOCALITIES (proposed)

()

Nice idea. These could easily be recognised postal areas or something. Most of the names are pretty good, actually, especially those in the main urban area.


"Without" is never on its own - it just means "the part furthest from the centre". Its an old (and now obsolete way of naming wards, rather than actual areas).

Donsett is the one in purple. The one in green is a big estate... lets say... the Henderson Estate (after Arthur). In a mining town, yellow would be more likely to have a compasspoint name or the name of an old geographic feature no longer there. White... Ardthorpe Colliery and Pity Us (there's a place in County Durham called Pity Me). R could just be riverside.


Make that 'Daffodil Dale Estate', 'Rosette Estate' and 'Shovington Industrial Estate'.


Most of these would be proposed names, of course.

OK, I'll make the changes now. 'Without' becomes Farrer's Cliff or Bellville?

I also snuck a modern term into 1950s Britain. Lovely.

First one sounds more like the sort of place we're dealing with.


lol

District and colour?

I can't complain as there are some seriously nasty jokes in some of the NPC names...

White Sanker.

New ward name suggestions (eliminating shared names where possible):

Willow Tree
Saint Michael ( I prefer St., but whatever is used should be consistent and Hash wants Saint)
Culzeansands
St. Andrews
Greater St. Alban
Soult
North Liberty

NE:
Frodsby
[Upfield?] Starnton (I'd suggest a complete renaming from Upper Stovesby; it's too distant from the centre)
Eastridge

C:
St. John's (I presume you already had a reason for this, otherwise Stovesby Town)
Creaghs
Low Town
Chamberlain
University
Wallside Gallowfield
St. Jude's
Gardendale
Shaddyside
High Willows

IE:
Isaacstown
East Stovesby and Island OR Reum
Gawther
Sanker
(this area could do with another ward, but no one area could justify it. Guess that's where the gameplay comes in...)

OE:
Shovington and Hellsby
Ardthorpe
Donsett Henderson
Lewes (I'd actually combine the Island with Lewes and have separate wards for Isaactown/Isaactown North/the northern part of New Port (loosely, the port itself) and then East Stovesby/Connaght Town/Reumtown and the southern (actually populated) part of New Port; I know the Island ward would be underpopulated but its better than overpopulating the Isaacstown area wards)

.......of course, that was an extreme avoidance and based on a little bit of prejudice :)

I love this idea, personally. That's sort of how I was thinking when I separated St Alban and Sunnybrae.


I love how you snuck Chadstone and an anglicised version of Murrumbeena (for those not in-the-know, that's the part of Melbourne where I live) into the map. Any chance of switching Sunnybrae Fields and Chadstone over? Your blue/purple area combined was pretty much precisely what I was thinking of Sunnybrae in my original description.

Sunnybrae was actually a reference to my part of Brisbane - Sunnybank (which was initially called Sunnybrae, but changed to Sunnybank fairly early on in its settlement).

The photo of St Alban was actually Davis Avenue in South Yarra - just around the corner from that Thai restaurant we went to that time.

Hehe, I was about 95% sure it was South Yarra.

Can you spot the other couple of little Australianisms? I made the switch, btw.

I've noticed Upfield, and Blighville (in case it's named after either the Queensland Premier or the early Governor of NSW) and I suspected Phillipton to be a reference to Port Phillip Bay or the early name of the settlement where Melbourne is today. I also wondered if New Port was a reference to Newport out near Williamstown.

I was a little surprised you went with Murrumbeena - I would have thought you'd have chosen the other railway station here rather than the suburb - Hughesdale.

That would've been too obvious :D

Phillipton and Lake Elizabeth are of course in honour of their highnesses, and not Melbourne-specific.

Cardinia is on the eastern outskirts of Melbourne, and one of the major water reservoirs is there (and in this game, it's where the also essential power station is)

Webber Dock is named after the main large-ship dock at the Port of Melbourne, Webb Dock.

Blighville wasn't particularly intentional.

Almawood is a personal one; I went to St. Michael's for two years, and it's on Alma road also near Crimea St, Redan St, Sebastopol St...you get the idea)

You got Murrumburgh and Chadstone.

Liardet's Beach was the second name for Sandridge, which eventually became Port Melbourne. The first name was Wilbraham's Landing, and I kind of wish we'd kept it.

You missed Thornburgh (Thornbury), got Upfield, and missed Dundas (although that one is hard, it's a now-defunct name for the northern part of Albert Park, although there's still a Dundas Pl.). No excuse for missing Parkville though, and I thought Roeville (Rowville in Melbourne) would've been quite clear too :).

Healestown is stolen from Healesville, New Port is kinda sorta stolen from Newport. While not stolen from Melbourne, Gwydir should be familiar to you, and Berrigan is a town in NSW (and also a nearby street here in Canberra).

Of course, if people don't like the names, they can ask me to change them or reject my divisions of the divisions altogether. But I like that it has a pepperng of the new world without anything obviously out of place :)

I should have got that one.


I spotted Parkville initially, but missed it when I was typing up my post. I really should have spotted Rowville since I used to live in the next suburb over (but didn't spot it).


I had also spotted Healestown/Healesville in my initial read and likewise Gwydir but again missed them when typing my post. Berrigan sounded familiar, but I thought it might have been because of the Rugby League player.

I will do a nicer ward map later and will keep this in mind. A couple of comments...


The point (basically) is that 'Upper Stovesby' was a generic name chosen for the area by the PWC when it was incorporated pretty recently. No one in the area uses it...

I quite like naming wards after churches and this one includes the Cathedral.


Yep. The central districts are heavily over-represented at the start of the game. Ward boundaries will change in a few years anyway (which will cause 'fun' in the game as it means all-out elections...)

()

Should I rename Lower Shaddyside (Shadd. Green) as Fretchitstown?

Hmmm... no. Fretchitstown is (um) just the (fairly small) area up against the boundary with the St Jude's district - it was chosen as the ward name because the boundary people liked the sound of it rather than because of accuracy.

()

This is the political situation at the start of the game. As you can see, a sizeable Socialist majority but not an overwhelming one. The past three sets of local elections in the city have been pretty average... no party has done very well or very badly so the situation is close to the 'natural' one (for want of a better way of putting it).

()

Stovesby in relation to nearby local authorities. Those shown are all the ones that might get swallowed up into the city at some point into the future - there is no chance of the city expanding beyond that point. A little explanation on the old local government system is needed... a County Borough was an independent local authority that ran all municipal services itself. Urban Districts and Rural Districts were subdivisions of the old County Councils and only ran some municipal services for themselves (the rest being run by the County Council). You mainly need to know this stuff because of housing policy, rather than because of local government reorganisation.

As for what the places are like... everything east of Saltforth is mining territory, Bormingsley RD is a rural area, Ketton UD is a small manufacturing town (textiles) and the rest are suburbs or commuting territory. Wedlock, Gormby and Prestsley are all middle class, Lenningsley is mixed, Morsby is very working class (1930s estates). Wedlock has an older core so has some working class areas, Gormby is very rich.

This adds two new aspects to the game... the first is additional 'fun' regarding housing policy (especially if our council believes in the suburban dream), the second is related to local government reform. Councillors in favour will want most of the area in the map included inside an expanded Stovesby, those against, obviously, don't.

(In character)

Obviously given the clear communities of interest between Stovesby and other more developed municipalities in the Greater Stovesby Area, our city should be expanded to include Gormby, Prestsley, Wedlock, Lenningsley and Morsby. The other areas, being less urban, should not be included in the expansion of the City of Stovesby.

(IC)

I don't see the need to expand into perfectly well-functioning communities to our north when we still have so much improvement to do within Stovesby. The only areas I would support incorporating would be those to our east, which are already economically and culturally linked to their fellow mining areas around Ardthorpe.

(IC)

Cr Courtenay raises an important point - that the rural and mining districts in Stovesby should realistically be released into the Shuttsby, Castle Derton and Normorley municipalities, assisting those councils to provide better services to their ratepayers, through the increased income those municipalities would be able to raise from the areas currently in Eastern Stovesby. The City of Stovesby collects enough rates to not require the small amount collected from those wards.

(IC)

As with all of his party brethren, Councillor Pitman supports a divisive policy designed to disenfranchise those who do not support his party. Clearly he is making a brazen attempt to improve his party's fortunes by suggesting such indivisible parts of our city as Ardthorpe or the new Wharfs should be thrown out.

Time and again, the people of Stovesby have rejected the party of division just as they reject this plan. Shame, Councillor Pitman, shame!

Cllr. Taylor: Councillor Pitman's remarks are so viciously partisan that I thought for a moment that this was a meeting of Nottingham City Council and not Stovesby City Council! He should also know that he is on the wrong side of history. The future lies in local government reform, in rationally drawn local authorities taking in both city and countryside designed for the purposes of economic planning, and not in this Victorian folly.

(IC)

For planning purposes there is certainly much to be gained from the use of 'city regions' to co-ordinate planning, development and possible new towns within in the Greater Stovesby area. The latest models or employment, transport use and retail catchment areas point to British cities having a greater influence than their urban area. It's called 'Thinking Outside The Boroughs.'

Cllr. Watson: I must admit that, if local government reform ever does happen, I'm a little concerned at loosing our identity in the process. I know that Councillor Taylor will disagree...

*laughter*

...but I think we ought to bear it in mind. I can see the value in incorporating most of the neighbouring urban districts, perhaps even as far as Ketton, and in gaining addition land that can be used for housing without complaint from those urban districts... but I don't know about adding Wedlock or Castle Derton to our city. They have always seemed, to me, to be different to us. Not that we'll be the ones to make the decision, of course.

(IC)

I never thought I'd see the day on which I agreed with a comment made by a Councillor Watson but it seems that today is the extraordinary day on which this rare conjunction of opinion has occurred.

It is vitally important that neighbouring urban districts be incorporated into the City of Stovesby. Not just for the planning purposes, so eloquently referred to by Councillor Finlay-Hamilton, but additionally for an improvement of municipal services in the Greater Stovesby Area and indeed the outlying areas of the City of Stovesby on the current boundaries.

For too long, this Socialist Council has neglected the needs of my constituents in Sunnybrae, who are forced to tolerate substandard bus coverage with only two bus routes. It is easier for my Sunnybrae constituents to drive to work or to conduct their grocery shopping or to visit a picture theatre in Wedlock than it is for them to drive or take a bus to the central areas of their own city!

The inclusion of surrounding urban districts will force this lazy council to act in improving Stovesby's public transport network. It is therefore imperative that we expand our municipal boundaries by incorporating urban areas to our north.

(IC)

Oh that is rich, Councillor Pitman! Only a moment ago you were advocating the expulsion of our eastern districts for your own political ends, and now you say that it is 'vitally important' that we expand to our north!

Public transport in Stovesby is focussed primarily on those areas where the majority of the population can't afford to do as your wealthy neighbours do, and drive into work. If your party had their way, nobody would ever leave Connaght Town of Low Town. Time and again, The MCP divides for political gain, claims outrage for political gain, and hopes to implement inequitable policies for the gain of their voters only. Once again, shame on you Councillor! Do you not know common decency!?

(IC)

Like the numerous criminals I locked up during my time in the force, Councillor Courtenay advocates the forceful collection of money from those who have worked hard to get to where they are today. He holds up his petty jealousy as a virtue and presents class warfare as an ideal.

Taxes are a necessity, and the wealthy citizens of Stovesby pay their fair share of taxes with the expectation that all of those in the greater public will benefit through the provision of services - not merely those of Councillor Courtenay's ilk, who hold out their grubby hands while contributing nothing to society.

Instead of supporting the expansion and provision of services throughout Stovesby, Councillor Courtenay sponsors division and pushes for services to be expanded for only those he deems worthy.

The Lord Mayor [Cllr. Donaldson]: that is out of order, Councillor Pitman. This is a meeting of the whole Council to discuss our city's relationship with neighbouring local authorities, not a meeting of the Transportation Committee.

Cllr. Taylor: [something inaudible]

The Lord Mayor: I'm sorry, I didn't hear that. What did you say, Councillor Taylor?

Cllr. Taylor: I did not say anything, your honour.

(IC)

*smirks*

(IC)

My apologies, Lord Mayor, I withdraw any reference to Councillor Courtenay's nefarious activities.

(IC)

Cllr. J. Fredericks will be running for re-election to continue his fight against the Municipal socialo-communists and their disastrous Soviet-like policies and their Soviet-like centralism in City Hall which is a danger for all honest self-respecting citizens of Stovesby.

I also support expansion to include Wedlock, Gormby and Prestsley within our city, but other inclusion of other areas would only be a tool by the socialo-communists to expand their rule of terror forever.

Cllr. Charlton: As always, Councillor Fredericks is spouting nonsense. Frankly, he belongs in the nut house...

The Lord Mayor: That remark is out of order, Councillor Charlton.

Cllr. Charlton: ...it may be out of order, your honour, but it is accurate.

*laughter*

Cllr. Charlton: It has long been my personal pleasure to make sure that there are no Communists, Trotskyites, Fellow Travellers or Useful Idiots in the Stovesby Municipal Socialist Party. It is absurd to think otherwise. And a distraction from our purpose here today. Councillors, local government reform is going to happen whether we like it or not. It may not happen for a while yet, but the increasing technological sophistication of our economy and the ever increasing importance of economic and regional planning makes it inevitable at some point in the near future...

Cllr. Godwin: Why does the Chairman of the Public Health Committee care about economic planning?

Cllr. Charlton: Because I care about the future of this city, our city, Councillor Godwin. As I was saying, it is going to happen. I think that I speak for the majority of the Socialist Group when I say that we should grab the opportunity, when it comes, to use any reform to the advantage of the city. Intelligent municipal politicians in other cities think the same thing. We may have, perhaps even within the next decade, a chance to move political and economic power away from London and towards industrial cities like ours. And when that happens, I don't think we should let petty political considerations get in the way... yes, Socialists like myself might not want a Conservative bastion like Gormby being added to the city. Conservatives might not like places like Castle Derton and Shuttsby being incorporated. But... we would all benefit from both. Imagine what we could do if we took in all the rates from the outlying districts or didn't have to worry about petty and backward complaints against the construction of out-of-town estates. I think we can all agree on that...

Cllr. Fredericks: As always, the socialo-communists are resorting to personal attacks on my person and my views because they can't accept the painful truth of the matter. I trust the people of St. Michael's to know the truth about the situation, and to reject both the MSP's old corrupt tricks and the MSP's push for local government reform which is nothing more than an attempt by the socialo-communists to weaken the position of the opposition to their reign of terror in Stovesby! They want to stuff the city with voters who are brainwashed into voting for their candidates because they can't know better. The Conservative answer to this nonsense is a clear and loud NO, because we want to keep Stovesby.

Cllr. Finlay-Hamilton: Mr Fredericks, I have a slight bone of contension with your position on this matter. Some conservatives, such as myself take a far more rational approach to such issues. It is clear that the good people of Culzeansands understand their close relationship with the city of Stovesby, one made more pronounced in the last wave of reform which swallowed up the burgh. However unitary authorities such as Stovesby do not reflect the character of their compenent communities. It is entirely feasable for a 'Greater Stovesby' to be a two-tier authority, with borough governance at a local level. Such a system can ensure that Culzeansands regains a significant degree of her autonomy from the city while remaining a key partner in Greater Stovesby for planning purposes.

Cllr. Robson: I think that Councillor Finlee-'amiltun's suggestion has some merit, as does what Comrade Charlton said. In Ardthorpe it has been hard to adjust to... to the changes brought on by incorporation. People feel that they have lost something and that the council officers don't listen or care about us. A degree of local autonomy would be welcome, especially if this came in the setting of a greater rate-base for the corporation.

Councillor Findlay-Hamilton nodes in agreement. Not too much though...He shuffles his papers careful not to let anyone get a further glimpse of what looks like a map he has been hiding at the bottom

Cllr. Findlay-Hamilton: I thank Mr Robson for his contribution. We are not talking about ''S.S.R's'' here, simply a tiered system of government that reflects traditional ties but also represents the future. People in my neck of the woods want to have some co-ordination too; there is a need to ensure they, as ratepayers have access to the very heart of the city and we need co-ordinated efforts to ensure we improve transport links within and around the city for one thing. We cannot have this with a collection of jabbering urban boroughs around the city. It is better to face a beast, if Stovesby must, with one head not many to ensure our needs as a metropolis are met.

Councillor Findlay-Hamilton is spot on with his comments about improving public transport in Stovesby. The best chance we have of creating an integrated public transport network is by incorporating our neighbouring urban districts, such as Wedlock.

The Lord Mayor: well, I think that that will do for this meeting, the last, as you all know, before the elections. It is certainly pleasing to see that the interest shown in the issue of local government reform crosses party lines in this city.

Meeting closed.

(OC)

There should be a specific thread for City Council public meetings.

There will be seperate threads for the 'meetings' of the full council and for the committees (and they will all work in the way this 'meeting' has) after the election.

IC

Councilor Walsh:

For all the bickering going on here, we have barely advanced beyond the standard platitudes on any of these issues.

Councilors, while I too hope to see our city join with out neighbors in the future, as such an arrangement can only help to strengthen us all, we cannot do so until we get our own house in order.  There are still large areas of this city where essential services are wanting, at best, and where important social services are severely lacking.  The residents of this city, especially in the less fortunate districts, must have better access to educational services and other barometers of economic opportunity.  More importantly, we must find ways to provide better funding for these programs, lest we find ourselves trying in a mad dash to absorb our neighbors as a matter of survival.

As the only Liberal Party councilor, I dare say that I am the only member of this council who is prepared to see beyond the blustering and extremism of the two sides to bring real solutions, workable solutions to the important issues at hand.  While London has taken a more aggressive role in dealing with social ills in recent times that does not mean that we can merely abdicate our own responsibility, on our own end, to ensuring that those services are readily accessible to all our citizens.

We must improve the way we do business here, gentlemen.  Then we can talk about our relations with our neighbors.