Talk Elections

Introduced by Senator Hashemite.

This seems awfully generous to the Mideast and skimpy on the relief to the Northeast. The idea of staggering the amount in according to need seems appropriate, but I feel uncomfortable actually doing that.

If that makes sense.

Also I in no way support letting the regional legislatures get their hand on this money. We should determine where it goes.

Also note that not all regions have legislatures :)

Some regions define their legislatures as universal all-citizens bodies, and the Northeast Assembly was just that until it was changed.


I am of the opinion that it is only fairer to help regions with the biggest deficits and/or unemployment the most.

I will oppose any legislation in which the federal government attempts to decide in regions' stead where their cash goes.

Fair enough I suppose. I just want to be careful about how we give money like that.


That's practically what we do with every other piece of legislation though, so what makes the difference? And since when did you become a defender of regional rights?

Besides, what do you think Clause 3 is there for?

The stimulus legislation clearly states that it is regional and fiscal relief funds, and I am of the opinion that its use should be determined by regional and local authorities. I'm not an ardent regionalist, but since reform of regions is impossible, we must live by the current constitution. And it also gives some regions something useful to do instead of having fun on little pet legislation.

Section 3 is there if a region does reject the funds, the government can reuse the rejected funds into other useful projects. There's nothing contradictory between 2 and 3.

I'm fine with staggering the relief money in accordance to need, but since the money was, as far as I remember, initially appropriated for the general use of paying down their deficits and preventing state employee layoffs, it would seem counterproductive to just let them have the money for whatever they want to use it for.

There is no legislative body in the Southeastern region.

This is why we need regional senators, I urge my regional senator to ask for more money to Atlasia's most populous region

Hashemite deserves to lose for this

Because I don't seek pork?

The region with the most money and the lowest unemployment rate?  That makes no sense at all.

Looking to hold another bonfire?

The Northeast should be punished for their success?  We have the most people, if we don't get the highest money number, it certainly should be the lowest.  However, $20 billion even is the best idea, or a complete cut of the funds

The Mideast needs the most money, without a doubt.  We need more than the $30 billion that is being appropriated.

The Mideast should be given the most money. This bill is will help regions in these tough economic times. The Mideast region has been hit harder than any other region, and we have double-digit unemployment. If anything, we might need more money, not less.

LOL, you are getting the most and still complaining, we have like twice the population and a third of the money, where are you going to get it from?

You don't need the money as much as we do.

We have a greater need for the money than you do.  You guys are doing fine; we are not.  We've been hit the hardest, in case you haven't noticed.

I also love how you criticize me, but say nothing when a member of the RPP says exactly the same thing.

I honestly didn't read Tmth's post, it was just as dumb

As a Pacifican, I'm reasonably happy with the money that we would be apportioned under this Act, and I think any reasonable and objective individual should be able to see the Northeast needs the money the least.

The unemployment rate is 12.1% higher in the Mideast. 12.1%.....

The numbers I put up are just to get the ball rolling, since waiting for a Presidential decree on the fact didn't bring about anything, and neither did waiting around. And we need to distribute the money. My original thing was in no way intended to be a final, polished product but certainly open to amendments, reform and the like.

On the allocation of funds, you have two, maybe three ways

1. You give it out equally, $20 billion to all to ensure fairness between all regions and no 'favourite' region for money, but running the risk of giving too much money to some regions and having them act like Alberta did, while having regions in dire need of help with not enough funds.
2. You allocate it based on each region's unemployment and deficit, in that regions like the Mideast which have a dire economic outlook get more money while regions which are economically active, up and running like the Northeast or Pacific don't get as much. Downside is that you run of the risk of being accused of favouring a region over another, and of not giving enough moneymoney to your turf. Or also the fact that a region given less funds could unexpectedly go down the sh**thole in terms of the recession and be faced with not enough stimulus funds from the feds.

Or, three, we keep the $100 billion in a secret bank and give it out to regions when they directly ask for a specific amount.

I don't favour any option over the other, both have their positives and negatives, and the third option I put out is also interesting.

Because the Northeast isn't exactly well off and we deserve a Senator who will fight for us, not fail regions that can't modernize their economies.

Dude, for real?  The NE has the lowest unemployment rate and the highest surplus. 

By that logic, Tmthforu94 should be defeated.

I'm sorry, but we're the best regions in terms of economic numbers. Lowest unemployment and a balanced budget.

Again, since people don't seem to bother reading what I said a million times, I just introduced this to get the ball rolling, and as said above:

Hey now, the Pacific is close behind. :P

Well, obviously you don't want to make a positive impact on the region if you aren't willing to embrace progress. You prefer to keep the Mideast and Atlasia as a whole at a huge disadvantage by constantly fighting against free trade agreements that will provide economic oppurtunities for Mideasterners. Mideasterners will be selling their goods at cheaper prices with the free trade agreements you always oppose. Oh, you do support one with Israel though. I wonder why?
(That's how you point an opponents weaknesses out with some substance, btw)

That was a year ago. And with comments such as wanting to burn Tehran to the ground, I think it is very obvious that you strongly support Israel.


It's really sad that you're having to resort to name calling. :( That won't get you anywhere in life.

Also, NC Yank wants to say In the future currency values will make opposition to trade by Pro-Labor people as absolete as the Model T but knows it won't be posted for hours thanks to the mods...

Yes, I strongly support Israel.  However, you are deceiving people by saying that I support Israel at the expense of Atlasia, or that I support an FTA with them, when I don't.  You're lying, and that is why I'm angry; I expected better of you.


I also agree that Yank shouldn't be on mod review, off-topic though that is.

Uhhh that quote has nothing to do with FTA's, it is about the GTO which is a treaty organization which has nothing to do with FTAs.

Thats why we in the South need the money we are getting and the Mideast needs there share, to modernise.


I hope this passes. I have some good plans for the $22 Billion the DS will get. I don't know if the Stimulus will allow us to spend it on new things(since we have very little already) but I was hoping to take $5 to $10 billion and introduce an iniative that would create dozens of scholarships, and grants for college(For 4 year, 2 year and technical colleges as well); invest in scientific research to like Biomed and Biomass; and invest in some building some new high schools. 

And your not a California elitist? Trust me, it shows.

Which is precisely my point-- why do you guys get twice as much money from a bill written by the NE Senator, even though your unemployment is pretty much EQUAL?

Remember our currency is traded in relation to the RL dollar and since it is falling fast the idea that trade hurts Manufacturing is going to be obsolete. Trade will actually benefit Manufacturing in the future.

You have at least spelled obsolete right. :P

Thanks for the consideration. Leip said I only have "short time" to wait before it expires.

"Short Time" sounds almost terminal doesn't it. ;)  "You only have a short time, whereas you have a little while. Just a little while longer."   Okay thats enough George Carlin for one night.

The Office of the GM fully supports the premise and substance of this bill.

The needs of the regions are not up for debate. The condition of the Mideast is not just a regional problem, left to be dealt with by its Assembly and regional Senator. The situation is rapidly becoming a national economic catastrophe and is standing in the way of any broad national recovery from the current recession. Strong actions such as this are not only proper, but necessary and I urge the Senate to pass this bill quickly so as to limit confusion about allocation of funds from the recovery act.

I know, HW, I was just pointing out that Ben is pro-Israel. ;)

And also, Ben, please cut the crap that you expected better from me. I have kept this debate on political issues the entire time. You're the one who got personal.

They, unlike us, have a deficit. 

But for the millionth time, I have nothing against an equal distribution of money between regions. What I do have something against is doing nothing on this issue, and I hope most agree. This isn't a bill to play little 'parish interests' and partisan shenanigans with.

We might be close to them in terms of unemployment but we also have an unfortunate deficit we need to fill a California, and other heavily populated states in our region, need to maintain their public services and prevent layoffs.

The NE is in bad shape too, it's just the best off.

Are you going to respond to my PM asking a technical question about the stimulus money soon?

The Midwest should get more.

After consideration, maybe giving an equal amount to each would be best to avoid the seemingly inevitable little parish interests and regional battles.

And after you'd convinced me to support staggering the relief money? :P

Well, I hope there's a way out of the constant 'me regions want more money plz' shenanigans, since right now I don't see it.

Fine, since all seem intent on playing little regional power shenanigans and parish interests, I'll bite.

I amend my own bill:


I know it isn't fair to all, but if we continue in this way of MORE MONEY TO ME REGION PLZ for a million years, this will never get passed. So, this is the tough medicine to take to get this passed unless people can get a worldview larger than their own little turf of land and recognize the realities of the nation as a whole. Damn it.

I really wish you hadn't done that and I urge you to withdraw the amendment before I'm forced to open a vote on this, because I object to it.

You're absolutely right that we should give money in accordance to economic conditions, that's the whole point! The population and the conditions of the Midwest do not match the severity of the economic conditions in the Mideast. The conditions of the Southeast and the Northeast are similarly incomparable.

If more people need relief then they should get more money, it's that simple. This shouldn't be viewed in some sort of "oh you're trying to get pork!" thing from yourself or anyone else. It's sensible and I admit to my error when drafting the stimulus that I didn't apportion the money in accordance to need.

I will open a vote on this soon, and do all within my power to stop it, but I strongly urge you to withdraw it before I can wait no longer.

I will vote against this amendment. The Mideast region deserves more money than any other regions. We are one of the largest regions (2nd I believe) and we have the worst economy in Atlasia, with unemployment rates that are nearing 20%. The Mideast region should recieve at least 30 billion, if not more.

I also feel the Mideast deserves a bigger piece of the pie.

My point is that some people are unable to think beyond their narrow regional mindset, and they're unable to accept that some regions other than their little turf also exists and that some of these other regions may be more economically disadvantaged than their turf. They don't seem able to accept that their preferred little turf can't gobble up all the cash for themselves. They also don't understand that this isn't pork, it's stimulus money which should be used for useful things and not building a county road in Wabush or building a palace for their Governor/royalty.

I introduced this legislation not in the interests of fantasy pork or any of that sh**t, I introduced it because it was needed and because nobody was ready to act on it, and the fact of the matter is that we needed to determine this stuff before regions can act on their budgets and the GM can act on the usefulness of the stimulus. I don't have a My Parish First attitude to this stuff, and I wanted to make sure this legislation could benefit those regions in need. I may represent the Northeast, but as Senator, I feel a responsibility to the nation as a whole and regional Senators should too, even if they're elected by a region.

No, giving $11 billion to my region isn't done because I secretly hate it and want it to suffer in hell. I wish I could give more, but in all fairness, I can't do that because I realize that it wouldn't be fair to struggling regions that a region which has maintained a better economic outlook than the country as a whole and has the best budget balance in the country should get more money than a region which has unemployment slightly below that of South Africa and is struggling with a large deficit. I don't think that a state, like, say, Germany would get as much 'stimulus' in a 'world bailout' as a country like Peru or South Africa. And, yes, Purple State is absolutely right that the failure to realize this reality and the failure to act on it would entail a much more large-scale national economic nightmare. Damn it people, please think beyond your region and parish, and think about others, other regions, other people/voters and so forth. Quit thinking about your own region's interests for a while, and think in a more open view.

This My Parish First attitude, which is true not only to Atlasia obviously, is stupid and regressive. It's a narrow-minded view and it won't lead to progress for the nation as a whole, which is what we absolutely need in times of economic recession.

Very well then Senators:

The following amendment is now open for a vote, please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain.

---

Nay

Nay

I agree with you, Senator Hashemite, that the amount regions recieve should be based on how badly they need the money. The fact that think the Mideast needs more money has nothing to do with the fact that it is my region, but everything to do with the fact that we need this money the most. Our unemployment rate is the highest by 4.2%.
Directly from the GM:
" Already there are reports that the Mideast, the region with the largest deficit and highest unemployment rate, is rapidly running out of reserves to pay regional employees or even for basic services, such as unemployment benefits."
The Mideast needs the most amount of money. After them should be the Midwest and Southeast, followed by the Northeast and Pacific.

Nay.

I understand Hashemites concerns, but I think the Senate is more accepting of the argument to have different handouts to regions than he may have assumed. If I lived in a well off region I would expect my region to receive less. That's just common sense.

NAY


Don Young Imitation(This is satire for those that are unsure)

HOW DARE YOU TOUCH "MY MONEY", I DON'T COME AFTER "YOUR MONEY", HOW DARE YOU COME AFTER "MINE".  :)

NAY

Good job everyone.

This amendment has enough votes to fail. Senators have 24 hours to change their votes.

Well, considering the Dirty South will just burn all of the money, why not distribute that money to other regions :P

Actually I have great plans for the money. I won't let them hippies burn it thats for sure. We want good teachers, new high schools, Financial aid for higher education, investments in technology and research, a chicken in every pot, a car in every garage, and partridge in a pear tree. :P

Good luck getting the anarchists to accept that :P

Okay, again I must ask, what is the purpose of giving so much more money to the Pacific, though they have relatively equivalent unemployment?

We rely very heavily on government agencies, and we've had a much more left-wing healthcare system for awhile now. We have to deal with more deficit and propping up our services than the NE presumably does.

Yea many of them probably don't even want the partridge in a pear tree. I will try to persuade them.

Which reminds me, I sent a PM to Marokai two days ago asking a question about the stimulus money and he hasn't responded. >:(

Nay

Oh Marokai, I know you must have read this. 

I did read it, but you're off mod review, so can't you mold the plan now? :P

Marokai what are you talking about?  It was a technical question not a request. I wanted to know if the stimulus money had to go to existing programs or if the DS for instance could create new programs with it.

Let's focus on this issue for the moment, I'll get to your PM asap.

Okay, I'm going to propose an amendment, I know some people, especially in my party, will not be too happy about this amendment, but I do. While Hashemite did a good job on this bill, after reviewing the GM reports, I have some adjustments I would like to make.
My reason for cutting the portion to the Dirty South: Seriously, a dangerously large amount of its residents want to burn the money. If I knew for a fact that Yankee's ideas on how to spend the money would pass, I wouldn't be wanting to limit their funding. But I don't know that. And the Dirty South shouldn't be getting this much if we don't even know if they will use it.

I support the measure changing the amount of relief money whole-heartedly, though I still oppose Clause 2.

Now you gone too far. And to beleive that you could be so no-count as to come after my money, I don't come after your money. Think outside the box, make it conditional. If the SE tries to burn the money the Feds can seize it but don't cut my money, you will ruin my plans and ensure that the 16.5 million you do give me does get burned. Your evil, and I will fight your evil amendment all the way, and If I could I would turn you into a fish over this. :P

lol...:D
I'm not thinking for my region, I'm thinking for whats right. The Mideast needs the money worse, and we will be able to put this money to good use. I am unsure whether the DS will be able to do the same.
Just be glad this little pig didn't try and cut all of your money!!!

You might as well have, cause with this limited amount my plans are unworkable and so the rest would be more likely to be burned then the $22 Billion.

The Midwest should get more money because this puppy thinks we should.

()

So, if you don't give us more money, you're ignoring this puppy, and that is just sick.

Since our Senator can't seem to support the Northeast, I urge someone else to help us out. This is appalling. We are having our own problems, and we have proven that we are responsible enough to put the funds to good use.

No, not the sorrowful eyes routine, anything but that, anything but that. :)

That puppy is actually a Pacifican, don't let the Midwest fool you.

We are in the best shape economically in the country, we should be getting the least amount of funds. Stop trying to turn everything into partisan attacks.

I'm quite undecided on the bill, but I believe the following may be prudent...

Amendment
That a section be added as follows:
No funds shall issue to the authorities of the Southeast region unless and until said authorities issue such assurances to the President, as he shall deem necessary and sufficient, such that they undertake not to destroy any monies received under this Act.

Stop your jedi mind tricks now!

I could support such a thing.


We're in complete agreement here, the Northeast doesn't really need much money.

Yes, we do need more money. We have economic problems of our own and also are the heart of the financial industry.

But think of the puppy.

I support this amendment.

The Pacific puppy!

No, because the pacific puppy is still stuck in one of the Pacific's many committees.

The Pacific puppy gets care at our single-payer vets, the Midwest puppy died because a family couldn't pay the bill!

No, because our puppy was saved at the last minute by the capitalistic free-market choice of vet he received when a religious charity payed for his bill!

     As Lt. Governor of the Dirty South, I will oppose any measure to destroy any money allotted to our region. I might support an initiative to refund it to the taxpayers, but destroying it is just silly.

Anyway, as you can see I have finely honed lobbying skills ;)

My plan was to take part of it and give out as tax cuts to small Businesses. But my main prorities was to aim it at Education, research, you know just the thing that are in your Platform. :P

We could use the initiative process to allow our region's citizens to choose what they want to do with the money, but judging from the response to my latest initiative proposal people seem to think the idea is an affront to common decency.

Dan you offered an intiative to just reject it entirely and we need that money in one form or another.

Now, in all seriousness, I think the amount for my region is fine, though I wish you would give us a few more billion.

As former Governor of the great region of the Dirty South, I would like to say that there are no plans on burning any of the stimulus money, and I can almost guarantee that we would not vote as a majority to pull such an act. I strongly favor taking the money to use in some constructive form, and I will attempt to use my clout (if I have any left in the DS) to prohibit any burning sideshows.

I call on the Senate to reject Tmth's unfair and insane allocation of the Releif money. Its taking a region based on unfounded rumors and half truths just so he can have something to brag about in his campaign. Does he not realise the economics of the decision. If the DS gets worse it will damage the mideast economy as well as the economies of the Atlasia and the world.

???



Killing Two Birds With One Stone Act
Aye: 4

::)

It is unfair to single out one region in this legislation.  I will vote no to this amendment as it is written.  I would support imposing requirements upon the regions for getting the money, but the requirements must apply equally to every region, not just the Southeast.

Damn it. Read the GM numbers, read my post on page 4. I've been over my reasons a million times.

Pray tell, how much do you propose?

MAybe he wants it all. :)

I know that the Dirty South badly needs the money. My main concern was the risk the money was burnt, which would have angered every other region that is struggling. And now, with the assurance of their Governor and Lt. Governor, I withdraw my current amendment.

Doesn't section three already deal with that?

17 billion for the NE

You're kidding. You region needs less than any other region, by far.

I have a feeling we may have to rely on the GM to be an arbiter on what regions require what. I'm happy with whats been floated for the Mideast.

No, we don't. We are the only region that has even begun to demonstrate any kind of fiscal responsibility. Why should we be handing money to regions that will just flush all usefulness of it down the toilet?

Why couldn't you base the amount to each region on relative population size and relative budget deficit size?

That way each region gets what they need.

I suppose that would be too "complicated".  Bickering about it is so much more productive.

One of the reasons I'm holding off on my amendment is that I would appreciate getting a report from the GM, and his estimation on how much money each region should get. He knows the Atlasian economy very well, so what Purple State says will impact my decision.

Don't worry fellas, I'm not holding a vote on this bill until we get some official figures from the GM. It's only appropriate we fully understand the situation.

This, however, I will let be voted on. (It wasn't accepted as friendly so I'm forcing a vote on this through my power as an individual Senator and as PPT.)

---

Senators, the following Amendment is now at a vote, please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain: (It's been added in proper fashion just for complete understanding and prettiness.)

Aye, as the South has shown little to no proper understanding economics and outright hostility (childish hostility, for that matter) towards the federal government's relief efforts in their region. I will not allow our money to be risked in a region that has a large portion of the population clamoring to burn it.

Aye

We shouldn't single out a region. Can't we just change part 4 to include all regions? For that reason, and that reason alone, I will have to vote Nay.

Nay.

One swallow doesn't make a summer. If they simply choose to burn money yet again then they will suffer the economic consequences as a result. It would be an incredibly stupid thing to do and something that the GM can comment upon.

Them burning money hurts the whole nation. I do believe burning money is illegal in the United States (and I am sure in many other nations) and should be illegal in Atlasia as well.

     I'm pretty sure that it is illegal in Atlasia.

Aye

Aye

---

I'm open to reviewing some of the numbers for money to regions based on new numbers and suggestions from the GM based on actual factual information and the like.

Alright, well, good to see you all don't mind going at it while I'm on holiday. I will have a report up in the morning on all of this if you can all stay with me for that long.

Nay, for reasons I've already stated.

GM Purple State has recommended how much money should be proportioned to each region. I urge my fellow Senators to follow the GM's advice on these numbers.

I accept the numbers but I disagree on some of the recommendations. I think the DS should be allowed to put some of the money in education/Research/Small Business as well as infrastructure. We could create a 470,000 jobs in small business by using just $8 billion of that $24 Billion and giving it out as an  2 $8500 tax credits(One per year) for every job created by a small business.

The jobs created by a small business tax credit would not be immediate and those businesses would more likely save the money in the current economic climate.

Placing some of the money into shovel-ready infrastructure jobs creates immediate jobs, provides income for those most likely to spend it quickly and helps the region in the long run.

I'd like to remind the Senate that there's a vote going on here that's stuck until things change.

The current tally is 5 Ayes and 2 Nays, but we need to finish up this vote, don't forget about it. (It would be appreciated if Jas could show up and vote Aye on his own amendment so we could move on.)

The businesses wouldn't get the money unless they hired someone. I am not dumb enough to just throw money somewhere and pray. I fully intend to place a good 33 to 40% of the money into infrastructure. And whatever is left into Education/Research. A good combination of Small Business, Infrastucture, and Education/Research is a combination for strong economic growth in my book.

Aye


As stated elsewhere, work required travel put me beyond regular net access for the past few days.

Some should also go to the deficit. The reason the Southeast warrants more than the Midwest is predominantly its higher budget deficit.

And in that case I am in agreement. It seemed you were simply offering tax rebates to small businesses with no strings attached.

No problem. :)

By a vote of 6 Ayes and 2 Nays, the amendment has passed.

Nay ftr

Anyone want to formally write up the GM's recommendations? I don't particularly agree with them myself, so I'm not sure letting me write it is a good idea.

CAn I see what the current draft looks like with amendments?

Surprisingly unchanged, actually. Aside from Jas' amendment, we've had no change to the original bill after 10 pages of arguing. One amendment was voted down, and another was withdrawn before the vote. Here you are though:

The Mideast deserves the most.

I will, since I pretty much agree with GM Purple State's suggestions...

I'd like to propose the following amendment...

Damn you Tmth, :P Always knew teens today were too fast.

For reference, here are the GM's numbers on each region's deficit and unemployment:


Deficits:
Mideast: $80 billion ($600 billion vs. $680 billion)
Pacific: $50 billion (Revenue: $850 billion vs. Expenses: $900 billion)
Southeast: $20 billion ($480 billion vs. $500 billion)
Midwest: $10 billion ($350 billion vs. $360 billion)
Northeast: $0 ($780 billion vs. $780 billion)

I support this amendment.

I agree the Midwest needs more money. We are crucial to Atlasian commerce, having Denver located in our region, and our farms provide food for thousands of Atlasians.

I'm beginning to think we need more than 100 billion. :P

If this was a little vague, I was voicing support for Tmth's amendment.

Did you see PS's projections, our deficit is now in excess of $2 Trillion dollars. Even I would say at some point you have to have some sanity return. We want a slow descent of the dollar, not a run on the dollar.

It's not my fault this body has no courage to raise taxes.

Cause we don't need to raise taxes. We need either the economy to recover soon, or basically "Call superman" cause will be screwed.

I'll save this debate for another bill. But needless to say this body needs a major reality check on revenue.

I know but its ingrained in everyone's head that you don't raise taxes in a recession.

That was all that needed to be said.

Now, at what point do I say that the bottom has fallen out of the economy and we plummet into a sea of despair? Or do we let the beat roll on... ;)

Yes and thank goodness we've never followed that philosophy in past economic troubles. It would have led to disaster!

Oh wait, except FDR. Almost 10 times. And a large one under Clinton at the tail-end of a recession.

The FDR obsession was old. He was an economically weak President.

You need an exit strategy to get out of this quagmire. You should really consider timetables for withdrawal, of course you reserve the right to keep them secret. :)

I'd challenge you to a more in-depth discussion on that, but I know you'd never go through with it.

I would go through with it. I just suspect that in the end you will resort to cheap personal attacks unrelated to the discussion at hand.

FDR is really simple actually. He needed to do what Hitler had done and he got that chance in 1941. Unemployement was Zero, Inflation was Zero, Savings skyrocketed, and there was no output gap as the gov't was buying most of the manufactured products to fight the war.

Hamilton, I think people know (https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=101482.msg2132311#msg2132311) that, where economic (https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=98106.msg2052686#msg2052686) matters are concerned, I'm (https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=19934.msg2068348#msg2068348) usually quite serious (https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=100061.msg2093837#msg2093837).

Writing term papers for posts doesn't make your argument correct, it simply means you can write a lot of crap about whatever it is you are trying to say. Look at GPORTER's campaign thread. He has some long ass posts.

At-least MArokai isn't lieing about what the posts contain like Gporter.

I agree, taxes need to be raised in the short term. There's no excuse to have this large of a budget gap, and since we're in a recession we can't lower spending, at least not with the current President and Senate.

Higher taxes do have their benefits, they allow the government to lower the deficit, thus strengthening the dollar and keeping more money in the Atlasian economy instead of China's treasury.

Cut spending, create a national bank.

Do you think this Senate or President will do this? Seriously, the stigma against minor tax hikes is silly.

I opposed afleitch's tax cut. I don't think we need to change the tax structure at all right now. We need to focus on aiding small businesses, not washed up corporations. This government needs to decide if it's going to support free trade and foreign slave labor and stop propping up uncompetitive companies, or if it is going to adopt pro-business policies that allow growth in our communities and for individuals to have more opportunities.

You are both wrong.

Vepres: A weakening dollar is a symptom of the trade deficit. As the dollar goes down the Trade deficit shrinks. A higher dollar would send more money to China, not less. The dollar needs to fall to push exports back up in relation to imports.

Alex. You don't cut spending in a Recession they did that in 1936 and the economy dipped back down in 1937-1938 wiping out almost 5 years of improvements. Your national bank scares the hell out of me and would have no effect on the demand cycle. You don't mess with the financial sector when fear is the number one enemy.

Cut spending, create a national bank, cycle that money back through loans, the new capital will create jobs, interest is paid back to the taxpayer and the cycle is repeated. The national bank would be a stable source of credit and capital that would stabilize the value of the Atlasian dollar. It would promote growth. 1936 was a depression, not a recession. Also, the spending at that time was so overwhelming that it had to be cut or else it would spiral out of control. The path we're heading on is letting spending spiral out of control. Keep adding to the debt and we will never get rid of this deficit. Eternal debt for Atlasia. We need a way to close the gap.

I think a deficit this large is unreasonable and detrimental to economic growth. I also think that, while I oppose the government spending, now that it is out there, raising taxes is the best option. In fact, I considered a tax hike in my region before I knew we'd get enough money to pay off the deficit.

@ Yank: That is true, I didn't that through. However, I still disagree. A strong dollar is essential to American economic growth, especially considering many of the world's largest corporations are American. I mean seriously, we import Chinese goods and export debt, that is not good. We should raise taxes on some to pay down this deficit. Thus, the economy is based on real money not imaginary money borrowed from China.

Now, higher taxes are essential and the only option considering we have a left-wing President. On the other hand, companies should be encouraged to build things here. So yes, I agree the trade deficit is a problem, but that isn't what I'm debating. I think our taxes are TOO low for the given climate, and I would rather have higher taxes and a balanced budget, or at least lower budget deficit than a 2 Trillion dollar deficit.

See, that $2 trillion that have been spent through deficit spending should not exist. In essence, this means that 4% of our economy this year was government spending money that shouldn't exist. I think this in fact contributes to the trade deficit because instead of us exporting goods and services to China, we are exporting debt, which will only benefit China and hurt us in the long run. This is not sustainable, and creates the illusion of economic growth when in fact it is not solid in anyway.

Anyway, this is not what this bill is about, so I leave you with this LONG response :P

Sounds like Hooverian economics. No thanks. I should have said deflation instead of recession but whatever. You don't cut spending at times like this. The downturn in 1937 was a direct result of the cuts in spending and the Fed tighening the money supply.

It won't work Hamilton because people won't take loans if they fear there job will be cut tommorrow. You need confidence and all your plan will do is kill the traditional banks and lead to more Unemployement.

I don't know what to say. I will only say that the dollar's decline was inevitable by the late 90's. Its a naturally correcting process and the dollar is overvalued. THe dollar declining will solve the Trade gap, increase exports, create growth and allow the world economy to rebalance. The dollar currently is over-valued and nothing will stop it from declining. It is much easier to achieve a budget surplus if you have a trade surplus.

That 4% of borrowed money is necessary to close the output gap(production-consumers willingness to buy). And the falling dollar will help manufacturing recover as exports rise.

I sort of stumbled over my words in that post.

Suffice to say, deficit spending is not something I am fond of. On the issue of trade deficits, why not enact pro-market reforms, and provide financial incentives for businesses to build factories here?

Anyhow, you and I probably agree on 75% of this anyway, so let's save this for later, after all, I'm no Senator, yet ;)

Bleh, this is so poorly constructed.

I object to the amendment.

I have seen no analysis of the proposed numbers (and I don't have time to do it myself at this moment).  And, I think this needs to be voted upon.

No analysis? I thought those were the GM's numbers ???

Very well then fellas.

The following amendment is now at a vote. Please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain.

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Aye.

Aye

Aye.

Calling an immediate vote negates my purpose in objecting.  Abstain.

Aye

Aye

The numbers are based on analyses by the office of the GM. I am happy to explain them more fully to you, but I believe my report on the matter speaks for itself.

Oh, all right.  Aye then.

Aye

I'd say the Mideast needs more than $32 billion.  We have the largest deficit and largest unemployment numbers; it is critical that we get a significant increase.

And where are we supposed to get this money from? Pull it from our asses?

Where are you getting any of this money from?

There's a limit. You know, you're getting far more than anybody but there are also four other regions. Let's stop thinking with this narrow region-first view.

And you can't randomly pull even more money out, even if it's fantasymoney.

Alright I think we're finished here, we've been about as productive as we can be squabbling over this money.

I hereby open up a final vote on the following bill. Please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain.

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Aye.

Aye

Aye :)

Aye, sounds good to me.

Aye

Aye

Yay, mission accomplished! :)

Aye ftr

*Ahem* Mistah President! You are holding up economic recovery.

Veto and demand Northeastern money.

lol

oh, sorry

X Lief