Talk Elections

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There has been way too much trolling lately.  It's gotten to the point where it's virtually impossible to read the Atlas, honestly.  Accordingly, I'm instituting a new policy, called the TrollList.  For now, it is in my own section only.

Consequences of TrollListing
Your posts in Off-Topic and Forum Community will be deleted.  Trying to get around this will decrease the chances that you are ever removed.  In severe cases (marked with an asterisk on the below list) posts in the past 30 days will be deleted, if possible.

Cause of TrollListing
This policy applies to those who have received multiple warnings.  Furthermore, it only applies to those who have actively ignored these warnings (refused to respond to PMs about it) or passively ignored them (violated the same rules repeatedly despite promises not to.)  Finally, it applies to any user who has -- for any reason -- been voted as banned by the moderator staff, but has not yet been banned.

No specific warning will be given for being TrollListed.  Any poster on this list will have exhibited chronic misbehavior, and received ample warning or been the subject of many post deletions.  In other words, if you're on this list, it won't be a surprise.

Current TrollList
•   Alexander Hamilton* - Inappropriate thread-bumping, personal attacks, abuse of reporting system, spam.
•   Libertas*- Chronic personal attacks, abuse of reporting system, spam.

How to get off the list
It is not my responsibility to help you be removed from the list.  If you have questions about improvement, you need to contact me, not vice-versa.  You're entitled to disagree with the policy.  But personal antagonizing, "but ___ is worse!", etc., will not get you removed.  Removal will happen when I am satisfied that a meaningful behavioral change has happened in other forums.  Respect disagreement will not negatively impact your chances at removal.  Abrasiveness or further mis-behavior will.

* People who are currently elected in Atlasia will be allowed to vote and do their duties of those offices and nothing else. Anything done outside these bounds will be edited out of said post. People will also be allowed to declare for elected office.

** If posters on the troll list continue to spam all posts will be deleted, overruling the asterick above.

I hope you and Gustaf can keep to this. An important step to improve the quality of these boards.

Question:

Does this:


Also apply to people who have an asterisk?

Yes it does.

Great idea if you and Gustaf can do it.

Will they be allowed to vote?

Yes

Libertas holds office; You want to put an asterisk next to his name, too.

I don't see a reason why Winston belongs on this list, as he doesn't do "chronic personal attacks" on people. Sure, he holds grudges, but he doesn't go out of his way to mess with people.

The asterisk by the name doesn't lead down to the asterisk at the bottom. It indicates "sever cases."

I don't really see the point in going back and deleting old posts.

Just to be clear, are you saying people on the list cannot post at all unless they are voting, declaring to run, or talking inside an assembly thread? They cannot debate, or campaign, or respond to newspaper requests for an interview?

That's usually what not being able to post means.

New section added, those that continue to spam will not be allowed to participate and all posts will be deleted.

So, here is it. I imagined that the "Alcon method" would rapidly be expanded to the AFE board. Actually, I consider it's a quite intelligent moderating system, at least far better than arbitrary thread deletions.
I want to have a look at how this works, but I think it can really help improving the board, as long as moderators don't start abusing of the list.

Basically. But obviously not suitable to Atlasia. See what Teddy said.

Um, isn't Sewer Socialist an office-holder and therefore should be appear with asterix?

Well we gotta think whether those people should even be allowed in Atlasia.

Yes. But that decision is Dave's and/or the Atlasian Courts'. Not someone's who is so obviously party in the dispute that it's not funny anymore.
(I also have serious issues with one inclusion on these lists btw - Einzige - and, although that's thankfully not relevant in Atlasia yet, with one absence: Rochambeau. I mean, if that's not incessant spamming then how are SpaceCom's occasional ritalin lapses so?)

Yeah, IMO Sewer shouldn't be in, neither Einzige. The first loves just making fun of everything, but never makes personal attacks. The second is sometimes very harsh, but he always gives arguments and discuss about ideologies.

My question though, and sorry for it being stupid, is Sewer just on this list, or is he actually banned?

He is not banned. So far he's actually followig the rules unlike Hamilton and Libertas and if it continues and he doesn't do spam he'll be getting off the list.

Thanks boss!

He better not, then I will be a runningmate short for the next presidential election.

Then maybe you better help him to stay on the right path so you aren't short a running mate come Feb. ;)

So you two were serious about the run? Cool (I still vote BC FTR :P)

And seriously now, I don't expect any problems with Sewer Socialist. He really want to participate in Atlasia.

This is rather inappropriate in this setting.

I have to admitt I have rather mixed feelings regarding new policy.

Truth, there are unreformable trolls which should be removed or at least disciplined.

What worries me is a potential field for abuse, as moderators can put virtually anyone on the list without any consequences or regard to actual guilt or lack of thereof.

So please, use this WISE.

Yeah, mixed as well. Why I like how the Mods are being proactive, there are certainly other individuals who do similar things. I think that this post was too strong, and should have been done in private, not in public.

It is how it is. It's a good system really, and the problems here everyone continues to whine about here are cause by precisely the same people we had problems with in the past. They continue to troll, and spam, and sew their complaints in others to give the illusion of widespread resistance.

However, whining about these changes without end probably isn't going to help anyone's cause. If those in question thought continuing to act like even worse trolls and continuing the spamming and intentionally-provocative-for-the-sake-of-being-provocative posts would get the mods to go easy on you, then.. yeah..

People should act mature about all this. Even I could be on board with some criticism of the new system if people actually acted like they were above 15 years old.

Banning people from Atlasia by moderative fiat is a good system?

I'm 14, :P

Seriously?  I thought you were older than that.

I don't know how long a system like this will suffice until the trolls overrun it with their spam/abuse of the reporting system, etc. I wish Mr. Leip would come around enough to get rid of these people, but perhaps he's afraid that banning them will only make it worse, if we believe the threats Hamilton likes to spew about how it will get worse if he's banned. I don't know. It's unfortunate that these kids, with way too much time on their hands, are trying to take down the forum. It used to be a great place for discussion.

No way. Pretty big surprise, huh?

I used to claim I was older back when I first started, as I thought I would be discriminated against. But, No, I am 14.

NiK and Barnes are an examples people in such age can actually act mature.

Thanks. :) People always say I'm mature for my age.

Yeah, thanks, Kalwejt. When were you born, Barnes? July 24th, 1995 for me.

June 8th, 1995.

Believe it or not, the AASP does have a serious agenda and that is the encouragement of governing local cooperatives. Pretty much we are a libertarian socialist party.

Please take it to PM's please.

I'm sorry.

Thanks, though, for the rules. Atlasia has been so much more calm. :)

I agree with that. Banning Hamilton will be a terrible mistake, because he will easily come back on the forum, and learning from his mistakes, he will manage to screw the forum without getting banned in time.

He won't learn. And besides, it won't matter. Once it'd discovered it is Hamilton he'll be banned for circumvening the ban, just like Ogis every time, no matter how he acts.

Hamilton is the only poster right now on entire Atlas who really deserved a man. He will never learn, he will never change despite so many chances he was given/.

Did someone only imagine that Swing Voter could be Hamilton before Nik revealed it ?

Well, but Hamilton main account should be banned regardless. If he go back under new and start to act the same way, than ban it too.

Sorry, but we can't surrended before statement like: "trolls will be back anyway".

Hamilton deserves to be banned for massive trolling, spamming spree, despite all chances he was given. I';m not list or new policy fan, but he's a real exception.

Acting by force will not work with Hamilton, he is too crafty and manipulative for that. IMO it's better to control and "regulate" him by preventing him to harm, rather than trying to get rid of him.

So he would keep posting and mods will keep deleting it, right?

Treat him as a normal member of the TrollList. Delete all his posts except those regarding his political offices, and if he really improve his behaviour let him free until he starts trolling again. By doing so, we will prevent him from spamming without having him coming back under a new identity, and trying to screw the forum once again.

You're a man with a big faith ::)

I'm being extremely pragmatic. If I thought we could ban Hamilton from the forum definitively and never see him again, then I would be fine with it. But I don't want, in some days, that a "Hamilton bis" feigns once again to be my friend and uses me.

That some of you acted stupid is not enough to convince me to do the work that it would require to moderate Hamilton.

There are two options if a troll comes back and does not get detected (they usually are at some point).

He trolls again and is banned again. No problem.
He doesn't troll again and is not banned. No problem.

Do whatever you consider better for the forum. We'll see later who of us was right.

I considered it the minute he said he wanted to join the party that had his friends in it, Hamilton and Einzige. I was thinking it might be either some dupe or a sock.

So what are we gonna do, ask for an IP check on any new ARC member ?

Sounds reasonable. :P

Very much this. ^^^^^ Kinda uncomfortable about Winston being on the list too. Has he really earned that?

Very much this. If anyone banned comes back under a sock and acts like an ass they'll draw attention to themselves and be discovered and rebanned sooner than you can say LibertashatesJews"Zionists".

If they come back and act reasonable under their new identity, then they're not causing anyone problems until their eventual inevitable discovery (which might cause the minor inconvinience of a special election if they've managed to be elected to some office in the meantime. Maybe an IP check for every 1st time candidate for office?).

Something to consider. I certainly have gotten into a habit of asking for IP checks of RPP recruits for the sake of maintaining sercurity on the Private Forums.

It works quite poorly. Security there does not exist.

:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5iseJJ5ogA

Seems that moderators have been totally inactive for 3 days...

It is odd, isn't it? Alcon, MasterJedi, and Gustaf, three of the biggest TrollList supporters, have been MIA for the same amount of time.

True... And some days only after the creation of the trollist. I really start wondering what's happening here.
Anyways, either you are able to apply the tough rules you set or you make them less tough, because the situation of posters who will have their posts deleted but can post nonetheless (and start topics) is quite paradoxal.

Yeah, weird - I wonder if Dave thought they went too far?

If he did, he hasn't expressed that thought to all the moderators, though doesn't mean he didn't express it to them individually.

Is someone able to contact one of them by AIM or something else ?

MasterJedi's on AIM at the moment.

Guys, I have a life. I've been home this weekend and not on the comp much until today. Well at least Hamilton has made it clear he'll never get off the troll list.

There was no doubt about that.
As for you life, 3 days is really long a time. Maybe you could find an arrangement with Gustaf to ensure that one of you is online at least once per day.

Please do not take this the wrong way, but if you think the forum is that important, I'm afraid that you need a life. I mean, its only an internet forum!

I hate this kind of argument. The importance or not of this forum is irrelevant. When you are in it, you wish to see the rules decently applied. It's not that demanding, especially since there are two moderators.

So far he's doing everything to stay here forever

SewerSocialist, Winston and Einzige have been removed from the troll list for good behavior. Hamilton and Libertas will remain there and are still extreme cases.



This is something I do in my spare time for fun. I don't get paid to moderate so it's not my "job". If you'd like to pay me for moderating I'd gladly agree to the plan you described. ;)

Congratulations for carrying out the new policy according to terms.

Agreed,  I would hope that some people would give this policy a second chance in light of the fact that it is being adminstered fairly.

Your behavior in the Northeast Assembly thread is disgusting.  You're now deleting MY posts.  I am not a troll and am on no list.

I am asking the Atlasian Supreme Court for an emergency injunction against your unconscionable actions.  You are making it impossible for me to do my job as Northeast Assembly Speaker.

I think you two mods doing fine job so far and by removing Einzige, Sewer and Winston you proved you're able to carry out new policy without any personal prejudicies.

But please, don't delete Assembly votes.

I think you're doing everything just to stay on this list. And you can't blame anyone but yourself. You really think you will accomplish anything by keeping this way?

The current mod's behaviour is totally useless as regards trolling. Deleting posts of another user, and one of the most respectables here, only because he quotes Hamilton (because he is a NE rep, and so has the right to propose Amendments. Please, just reflect about what you are doing. You are giving Hamilton new occasions to develop fallacious arguments, while helping nothing to the fight against trolling.

Stop acting so stupidly, please.

Hamilton has been banned so he's gone for now. Though I have also gotten information that he has 6 accounts in reserve. So let me know when anyone new registers and we can check them out and get him re-banned when he attemps to show up.

The idea that Moderate has to yield to the authority of an Assembly is ludicrous. MJ and Gustaf are moderators of the entire Atlas Fanasty Election Board including all threads thereof of which one of those threads just so happens to be the Northeast Assembly thread. If there is policy in place, it should be applied uniformly accross the entire board. Remember, the escalation is not the mods fault, it was Hamilton's. We always love to blame the wrong person but three people got removed from this list there ,must be a reason why Hamilton wasn't and in fact the opposite occured.

 

So now Libertas is the only member of the TrollList ? :P


Which basically has nothing to do with my point.

It was just a general statement on the matter not aimed at anyone in particular.

We all understood and accepted MJ's no-exception policy for TrollListed members. What is totally absurd, useless and harmful for the functioning of the Assembly, is deleting the post of a non troll quoting a non-trollish post only because this post came from a member of the TrollList.

There's absolutely no reason the Northeast or Mideast Assembly threads should be in this board in the first place.  We should have our own board and be able to police the conduct of our elected representatives - either in the Assemblies themselves or through the ballot box. 

But given that we don't have our own board, the policy shouldn't apply uniformly across the entire board.  The Assemblies are integral to the functioning of the game.  Without them, there is no local governance.  Most of the rest of the posts on this board aren't integral to anything.

What you have instead are people from outside the region meddling in the affairs of a region by deleting not only the posts of the alleged trolls in the Northeast Assembly thread, but also those who quote the alleged trolls.   The Northeast Assembly doesn't have a mechanism for throwing out or ignoring amendments offered by alleged trolls.   When the Moderators delete validly proposed amendments and validly cast votes, it makes running the Assembly impossible.  Moreover, these alleged trolls have been tried by no one and convicted of nothing other than getting on the wrong side of the mods - and as the Mideast Assembly seems to be correctly concluding, shouldn't lose their positions or power absent a trial.

Ban the alleged trolls or put them on mod review.  This half-baked measure makes it impossible to run an Assembly.  Or better yet, give us our own board.

If you got your own board, it would be a child board and it would probably have MJ and Gustaf moderating. You aren't going to get a full, un policed board all to yourselves.

Cinyc, don't play this game. This not the Moderators ganging up on the newbies, this is not a Liberal versus Conservative. This is not a group of people ganging up on Hamilton because of his beleifs This is Hamilton versus the rest of the forum. He declared war on them months ago. Months ago he told me he despised Leip with a passion back when I was still his "friend". There is a f**king reason me, NiK, Kal, Antonio, Barnes and on turned against him within two month period. He has been on Mod review a million times and everytime he refused to learn his lesson and got more defiant. He finally found a niche, a group of people who would beleive his claims of being unfairly victimized by the evil Nazis mods and who would join him in causing strife.  This policy was instituted because of HIM and his friends and their actions. Three people were removed from the list because they finally cooperated. Hamilton refused and escalated it yet again, driving the mods to escalate the punishment to all posts. You quoting his posts so they can appear in the assembly is attempt to help Hamilton circumvent that punishment. The purpose was an attempt to compell them to cooperate.

I am sorry Cinyc, but your sympathy towards him is astounding and I can only think of one possible reason for it and that is because you fear the potential wrath of the ARC in the NE against you. Please tell me this isn't a political stunt, because I have a lot of respect for you.

So for gods sake before your impartiality and image as an independent is ruined forever. If Hamilton cared about the Assembly, he would have resigned but thats not Hamilton, he stayed to stir up sh**t. He is the one that damaged the workings of the assembly.

cinyc knows better than to believe that Yankee. Hamilton wanted to resign and had a plan for me to repalce him and cinyc and AndrewCT said for Hamilton not to. Hamilton can't be blamed for the moderators disgusting actions.

Sorry, I don't fear the wrath of the ARC or anyone else.  I can easily win reelection in the Northeast without any ARC support.  This isn't a political stunt.  I am playing no game - just stating the facts as I see them.   I agree with Sam Spade's assessment in the Northeast Assembly thread that this half-measure troll list system is doing more harm than good.

It is impossible to run an Assembly when moderators are deleting posts in the Assembly thread.  Period.  The mods can't be online at all times, some posts from alleged trolls who are still legitimate members of the Assembly get through for a while, which I have to acknowledge as legitimate if I see them.  If I don't, and it's a vote, the result could be changed or I have to wait longer than I otherwise should to allow the missing members to vote.  

I've never said anything about the moderators unfairly attacking newbies.   Nor have I said much about the whole Hamilton saga.   I really don't care what the moderators do on the rest of the board.  I'd just prefer that they tread lightly in the Assembly threads, as they are essential to regional governance and their actions the Northeast Assembly thread are creating headaches.

Even if the same mods were in charge of our regional government subboards, that the posts weren't on the main board would be a signal to use less moderation.

Ban offenders or put them on mod review.

Does this constitute any sort of violation:

Not from my reading.

It does, but I doubt the mods give one. It's okay when red avatars do it. Especially Marokai, who's actually the biggest troll on the entire forum.

It's called a joke more-or-less referring to the fact that you split the vote in a Senate election in which the RPP support crashed.

Just LOL.

I am just checking in to inquire as the whether I have been de-registered yet. Oh wait, this is about trolls, not zombies. Sorry!   I assume I am not under active consideration for a T list. :)

ElectricFeel has been banned as Hamilton.

Also note that Vane and True Liberty also share an IP though I don't think Dave has done anything yet. The authorities can please act accordingly.

MasterJedi,

Could you give us an update on Vanes status?  It is pretty common knowledge that he is Hamilton, and he doesn't try to deny it.

Actually I do.

So, stop posting from proxy and prove us you're not Hamilton.

Is that really as hard?

Or maybe you don't want any real check? Why?

That would obviously ruin my fun. We wouldn't want to take that chance.

Last time I talked to him, he said he was working on it, but I will let him speak on that.


You know what guys, we should take him at his word. I think he is a trully honest and respectable invididual completely worthy of esteem and intregrity.

By the way, would anyone want to by this bridge in NY, its been on the lot for quite a long time?

I agree.
I'll buy it for 350,000 Japanese yen, no more....no less.

I'd rather call this cowardly.

You'll have a formal update within a week.

Until then, take it easy.

-moderatorperson

Well this died on its butt.

Note to community:

There's a lot of bitching going on and there was a lot of infractions dealt out today. To the few involved posters that are actually worth something, keep in mind that you may be infracted when stepping over the line even if the other guy is a total moron.

To the rest of you, keep digging.

Today's lesson (and shameless plug): This (https://uselectionatlas.org/AFEWIKI/index.php/Privacy_Protection_Act) was some good legislation. Bring it back.

Respectfully disagree. Chilled basic freedom of speech and resulted in uneven application despite diligent attempts by the AG and courts to do so fairly.

Tell me, isn't it an idiotic and contradicting situation that when you publish PM you're fine under Atlasia law, but you have problems with moderators?

No, in my opinion.  Atlasia law enforces the rules of this game as those elected in this game legislate.  However, the game exists on the private property of Dave.  His rules are more important than anything else.  While our little "society" may not have a problem with something, Dave will always have the ability to trump us.

I refer you to the banning of Libertas, which you were quite vocal about supporting.  His conduct did not violate Atlasian law, but it violated what Dave was willing to put up with.  Thus, Dave invoked his perogative as owner of this site to enforce his rules.  We may not like either decision, but as long as we exist on his site, we must obey the rules.

I disagree.  Now that it's clear to the mods Dave's will on posting PMs, and now that we're enforcing it, it'd be hard to prosecute cases.  Many people wouldn't see the posting of PMs before they're deleted by a mod, and it's certainly not Gustaf/MJ's job to tell the AG when they've deleted a post so he can prosecute.

Prosecution would be uneven, at best.

We will have to see if it is actually enforced on these boards. I hope it is and we can forget about the issue.

Prosecution is only a patch to address a problem that needs mod supervision. As long as moderation proves sufficient, I'll be happy.

Well, if the mods hadn't deleted the PMs while abiding by Dave's policy, Marokai might not be eligible for office.

Dave has not commented on the issue, but rather, has left untrustworthy people to do it for him.

Reason #1 why I'm leaving in march.

The law against posting PMs was repealed, so that is not the case. Though I did voice my displeasure in private about the posting of PMs, as I have in public and private many times before.

I wish we had a more congenial atmosphere in this game, but my efforts to institutionalize that have faced considerable opposition. So I will keep instigating and pressing for reforms that demonstrate what we want in this online community. I hope people will join me in the effort.

At least I don't send out weirdo PMs where I try to make people feel guilty for driving me to suicide. Reason #1 why I would be very happy if you actually did leave, instead of just pretending to in order to cause drama.

I never said you were driving me to anything, I said that if I go, I wanted to be sure to say goodbye.

I will be leaving the game when the election is over, weather you or anyone else likes it or not.

I was raised to behave in public. If some people can not do that, then they can go ahead and do that somewhere where I am not.

I guess your PMs aren't included in public behaviour then. The language you used in that PM is beyond anything I've ever said to anyone on here. At least as far as I can recall.

Can someone explain to me what the hell is going on?

Teddy sent me a creepy PM and I'm getting a bit sick of his antics. He is great at preaching politeness but he has went off against me on several occasions even though I've been pretty restrained in dealing with all of his crazy.

I like Teddy and I can bet all my money most of Atlasians are sharing this sentiments. What I don't understand is why is causing such a drama?

this is why I'm leaving.

I've been quite serious about everything I've said.

So, you only care about being polite when someone observes you? That's splendidly moral of you. Since I don't know you have never met you and hardly interacted with you at all, I think it falls under public behaviour. Yelling at a stranger in an alley doesn't become private because there is no one else in the alley.

Anyway, you called me an asshole in a public post. How was that polite?

Do we really need this stickied anymore?

Nope.

Agreed.

In which case one of you should PM Gustaf.