Talk Elections

The response to the question

"In general, do you support, oppose or neither support nor oppose the health care reforms that were passed by Congress in March?"
3/10 & earlier: "In general, do you support, oppose or neither support nor oppose the health care reform plans being discussed in Congress?"

is now at a record high (45%) going all the way back to September 2009.

6/9-14/10
45    42    13    1    
5/7-11/10
39    46    14    1    
4/7-12/10
39    50    10    1    
3/3-8/10
41    43    12    4    
1/12-17/10
42    42    14    2    
12/10-14/09
36    44    18    2    
11/5-9/09
39    45    14    3    
10/1-5/09
40    40    17    3    
9/3-8/09
34    49    15    2

Ah, the collective stupidity of the American people.

Or perhaps some are realizing it's not the end of the world as was implied by the heavily critical media coverage. For most people, the effect is they now have some more protections from their insurance companies and a little more security in case of job loss.

Ignoring the fact that it doesn't take effect until like, 2014.

There are parts taking effect this year. I'm sure anyone with kids under 25 is in favor now.

There's alot of stuff that takes effect this year. 2014 is just the bulk of the program, such as subsidies and the like.

The tyrannical forcing of Americans to buy health insurance not being one of them.

Most Americans already buy health insurance, so it just means they get subsidized. Still a win.

Morgan: you do realize that I am currently someone who does not buy health insurance by complete choice, and yet I still support the law regardless?

Except they are doing so by their own choice, not by government coercion.

Indeed...Only 45% support it?  That's ridiculously low.  The American people are indeed very stupid for opposing this reform.

Only forty-five percent support tyranny?  Terrible.

That is what tyranny looks like?  I thought it involved something more than ridiculously low fees for not purchasing something to join an insurance pool with explicit requirements that failure to pay such fees won't result in jailtime.  

Don't you think you might be, um, exaggerating tyranny a tad?  Like if that's tyranny, what's North Korea?

They won't result in jail-time? So what happens if someone just flat-out refuses to comply? They will shoot him/her?

But they get subsidized for just doing something they're doing anyway. Where's the loss? Let's say the government passed a law requiring everyone to spend $x at a strip club every year but they would send you a check for that amount of money. Do you think I would be bothered by this law?

And once again, I am one person who is voluntarily not buying health insurance yet am now being "coerced" to do so. And I support the law. What does that say?

Being fined for not buying health insurance sure sounds like tyranny to me.

Also, I heard that the provisions regarding abortion would make it almost impossible to get one.  Can't remember where I read that, however.

You wouldn't, but an asexual prude like me certainly would.


On the flip-side, there are a lot of people who do voluntarily buy health insurance, who oppose this bill.

Um, that's not the case.  It's just harder for insurers who wish to receive government subsidies for any of their plans (participating in "exchanges") to also provide abortions for any of their plans.


So... the definition of tyranny is any sort of mandatory "fee" in society?  Lol.  What happened to perspective?  Soviet Russia?  North Korea?
  

You people are hilar.  Perspective, perspective, perspective.

That's not the point. The question is why would I care about the government giving me money to do something I already do?


Which is idiotic, since all that bill means for them is that they get subsidized to buy it now. It's basically free money for them.

Maybe some people believe in liberty.


I'm sure that most people don't think about which insurer will provide an abortion if one is needed.  That provision will certainly make a lot of people's lives suck.



Doesn't make it any less tyrannical.

Huh?  So, the only options are maximum tyranny or no tyranny?  Some random fee imposed on society is TYRANNY... but what words are left to describe societies like Soviet Russia?

How is free money incompatible with liberty?

That's not the issue.  It's people being forced to buy health insurance.  Forced.


The fact that there have been much more tyrannical regimes in the past does not make government coercion to buy something any less of an infringement on individual liberty.

But who cares if you're being forced to do something you're doing anyway? I wouldn't be bothered by the government forcing people to visit strip clubs.

YES IT DOES.  PERSPECTIVE.

If I steal a penny from you, it's a not a great injustice.  It's "theft" in only the most minor of sense, not even notable to proclaim about.  

PERSPECTIVE is important, as is VOCABULARY which can determine the extreme of an action.  By using the most extreme of words possible, you diminish legitimate suffering and actual tyranny in the name of being absorbed in your own isolated, safe world. 

OF COURSE it isn't as bad as being shot for saying Obama is a fascist, but it is still an infringement on personal liberty.


So it doesn't matter to you if the government is forcing people to go to strip clubs?  Don't you give a rat's ass at all about other people's freedoms?

But that's why we have this great vocabulary in the English language to describe various extremes!

Like, I can describe my coffee as warm, hot, boiling, etc.  I don't have to refer to everything as boiling!  If everyone referred to everything warmer than room temperature as boiling, the meaning of boiling would lose its essential meaning as an extreme modifier.  Likewise,  there are various words we can use towards coerced action besides tyranny based on the illegitimacy and suffering associated with it!  By haphazardly slapping the word "tyranny" at everything you don't like in the world, you end up both undermining your own credibility and, in effect, desensitizing our language towards ACTUAL tyranny that must be confronted in the strongest of possible terms.  

If the government is subsidizing their strip club visits, what's the problem?

That's different than if people are being forced to go to strip clubs.  Durr hurr.

My point is if people are forced to visit strip clubs but their visits are subsidized, what's the problem and who is hurt?

The people who don't want to be forced to visit strip clubs.

Well I'm not one of them. I am one of the people who doesn't want to buy health insurance, but I still support the law in question.

Then you have a selfish disregard for other people's freedoms.

But you've never answered my point about me supporting the law despite currently not buying health insurance by choice.

That's because being coerced by the government to buy something doesn't bother you, as long as you're being subsidized for it.

Only BRTD can turn about a topic about a poll of HCR into being forced to visit Strip Clubs... ;D

Mogan, did you miss my post?

No.

Your post implies that I'm calling everything I just don't like tyranny, and that the government forcing people to buy something isn't "actual tyranny."  It may not be the highest form of tyranny possible, but that doesn't make it okay.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere.  While I believe it is okay, and a good idea, that's rather irrelevant, what's important is what you believe [although, your dismissive way of saying "So you support tyranny?" without elaboration is kinda meh].

So, do you see the problem when we use the most extreme words to describe something that is not extreme?  Like, why not say coercion instead of tyranny?  By abusing the word tyranny and slapping that on everything which doesn't represent something that is intense, you do a disservice to actual tyranny.  

Here, lets take a glance at the definition:


See?  Absolute?  Extreme harshness?  Tyranny which is "not of the highest form," as you call it, may actually be something else entirely!

Plenty of other words are abused too.  Pundits' desire to label every militant a "terrorist" does a disservice to our ability to distinguish between those who target civilians & spread terror and those who target only our military.  Now, because people abused the word "terrorist" so much, I don't know if most Americans even know what it is anymore, which is a tragedy.  

Bad analogy.

Dammit, Lunar, when I saw this thread I thought, "I'm going to post the definition of tyranny to show that Morgan has no clue what he's talking about."  Then I get to the end and someone's already done it.

Lunar's stealing my thoughts.  Must get tinfoil hat.

how are they hurt?

     They are required to spend time doing something that they have no desire to do.

Well given the attractiveness level of most of the lady entertainers at American striptease clubs, one can be hurt be losing one's mojo.

Yes, expanding coverage to more Americans is so stupid.  How dare we expect our democratically elected officials reform healthcare to lower costs and bring affordable preventive care to more Americans! 

Wasting money and denying those without the means to access healthcare is the Murican Way!  Cuz Ron Paul said so!  (both Ron and Rand can burn for eternity for all I care)

I've only been to a stripclub once... and it was all college girls working there.  90% blond, thin, and hot as hell.

do we have to do sh**t all the time that we rather not do, and you will realize this when you grow up.

Some of you guys seem to subscribe to what could charitably be described as a loose definition of "tyranny".

so do you support market tyranny?

     Because we are repaying a debt. Coercing people into doing something when they do not owe you anything is quite senseless.

So how do you plan on solving Adverse selection and the fact that if we don't have an individual mandate their will be idiots who are not buying health insurance, and thus making health premiums go up even further for those who do have healthcare?

...


...no? ???

     Scrap the health care plan that was passed & pass another one that isn't terrible? :P