Talk Elections

Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion => Congressional Elections => Topic started by: Keystone Phil on January 26, 2011, 12:45:00 PM



Title: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Keystone Phil on January 26, 2011, 12:45:00 PM
Just got word that Kohl is going to announce his retirement. My source tells me The Hedgehog Report broke the story. Still trying to find it.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Franzl on January 26, 2011, 12:46:48 PM
oh Lordie...the Feingold crowd will be unbearable.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Keystone Phil on January 26, 2011, 12:48:41 PM
oh Lordie...the Feingold crowd will be unbearable.

Yeah, I wanted to work that into the title then realized there will be more than enough posts about him here.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: SvenssonRS on January 26, 2011, 12:56:22 PM
Looks like this class of Senators really isn't wasting any time this cycle.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Citizen (The) Doctor on January 26, 2011, 01:24:53 PM
oh Lordie...the Feingold crowd will be unbearable.

Do Wisconsin Dems have anyone else to really look forward to? :P


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Franzl on January 26, 2011, 01:30:30 PM
oh Lordie...the Feingold crowd will be unbearable.

Do Wisconsin Dems have anyone else to really look forward to? :P

Probably not....and he wouldn't be a bad choice even, strategically.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: JohnnyLongtorso on January 26, 2011, 01:31:29 PM
Ron Kind would be my pick, seeing as how Feingold has no ability to hold down a seat.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Nhoj on January 26, 2011, 01:35:20 PM
oh Lordie...the Feingold crowd will be unbearable.
Indeed they already annoy me actually and im a fan of feingold.
Though I strongly dislike Kohl so If hes retiring that's great!!


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Snowstalker Mk. II on January 26, 2011, 01:50:22 PM
FFFFFFFFFFFFEEEEEEEEIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNGOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: tpfkaw on January 26, 2011, 01:53:37 PM
I actually like Feingold but I think it would be hilarious to see the reaction here if he ran in the primary . . . and lost.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: krazen1211 on January 26, 2011, 02:17:07 PM
R+1. Thanks.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: DrScholl on January 26, 2011, 02:26:02 PM
Hardly a Republican lock at this point, in a presidential year, the Democrat is going to have an upper hand. Wisconsin might have voted Republican in 2010, but I don't see that as a long term trend.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: JohnnyLongtorso on January 26, 2011, 02:33:44 PM

Um, no, this isn't North Dakota.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: SvenssonRS on January 26, 2011, 02:45:24 PM

Admittedly, I have to agree with this. The Wisconsin GOP has literally just formed a bench, as far as I can tell, so unless they pull out another Ron Johnson out of nowhere, this one is far from a lock - especially if Feingold jumps in. I do, however, still think it'll be close, whoever ends up winning.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Sam Spade on January 26, 2011, 02:56:52 PM
So I have to assume that Ryan is likely to run for this one, if KP is correct?


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: SvenssonRS on January 26, 2011, 03:00:13 PM
So I have to assume that Ryan is likely to run for this one, if KP is correct?

I think I saw somewhere that he'd denied interest in favor of his chairmanship...although Wiki still has him listed under "Potential," so I'm not sure what to think.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Snowstalker Mk. II on January 26, 2011, 03:04:22 PM
So I have to assume that Ryan is likely to run for this one, if KP is correct?

I think I saw somewhere that he'd denied interest in favor of his chairmanship...although Wiki still has him listed under "Potential," so I'm not sure what to think.

If so, D hold.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: krazen1211 on January 26, 2011, 03:05:40 PM
Hardly a Republican lock at this point, in a presidential year, the Democrat is going to have an upper hand. Wisconsin might have voted Republican in 2010, but I don't see that as a long term trend.

That's where voter ID comes into play; if the left's whining about it is any indication, anyway.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: DrScholl on January 26, 2011, 03:29:48 PM
Hardly a Republican lock at this point, in a presidential year, the Democrat is going to have an upper hand. Wisconsin might have voted Republican in 2010, but I don't see that as a long term trend.

That's where voter ID comes into play; if the left's whining about it is any indication, anyway.

Voter ID (unlikely) isn't going to stop as many Democrats from voting as you think, so I wouldn't count on a little stunt like that. Voter fraud is practically non-existent.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Brittain33 on January 26, 2011, 04:26:47 PM
Can anyone name a signature accomplishment by Kohl?


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Sam Spade on January 26, 2011, 04:29:12 PM
Can anyone name a signature accomplishment by Kohl?

Holding a really marginal Senate seat for Dems for 22 years?  :)


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on January 26, 2011, 05:00:20 PM
FEINGOLD!!!! :) :) :)

oh Lordie...the Feingold crowd will be unbearable.

;)


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: tmthforu94 on January 26, 2011, 05:08:11 PM
I'm looking forward to about 13 months of Tommy Thompson acting like he's going to run, then announce he won't. We all know it's going to happen.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Landslide Lyndon on January 26, 2011, 05:11:01 PM
So, is there any truth in these rumors?


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: MASHED POTATOES. VOTE! on January 26, 2011, 05:21:44 PM
FFFFFFFFFFFFEEEEEEEEIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNGOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He should pull Slade Gorton :)


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Frodo on January 26, 2011, 05:28:21 PM
Feingold gets a second chance! 


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Insula Dei on January 26, 2011, 05:42:49 PM
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Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Keystone Phil on January 26, 2011, 05:58:58 PM
Can anyone name a signature accomplishment by Kohl?

Yeah, exactly. Ever since I started seriously following politics, I thought he was the perfect example of a do nothing Senator. Then, of course, you get the standard "He does a lot of work in committee" excuse.  :P



I've been trying to find confirmation but nothing yet. I'm guessing it's just insider word right now.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on January 26, 2011, 06:31:26 PM
If this is true, Feingold would romp in the primary. I doubt any other top tier candidates would be willing to give up comfy seats or jobs to have a risky challenge against the Progressive Hero who would surely be able to raise much more money, who would have better name recognition and who would have a rock solid base.



Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: AndrewTX on January 26, 2011, 07:55:42 PM
Thompson is going to run, and beat Fiengold by 36 points. Watch, its going to happen.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: CatoMinor on January 26, 2011, 08:07:05 PM
Who was the other guy who ran in the GOP primary last year? He may be an option.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: SvenssonRS on January 26, 2011, 08:16:13 PM
Who was the other guy who ran in the GOP primary last year? He may be an option.

There was David Westlake and Terrence Wall.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: redcommander on January 26, 2011, 09:06:15 PM
There is a strong enough bench of Republican candidates in Wisconsin to ensure a competitive race even if Thompson and Ryan don't run. It's not a good sign if 2 Dems and Lieberman have already announced their retirement if this story is true.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Mr.Phips on January 26, 2011, 10:00:34 PM
Ron Kind would be my pick, seeing as how Feingold has no ability to hold down a seat.

And risk losing yet another House seat?  Democrats need to hold as many seats as possible in the House to at the very least get back over 200. 


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: JohnnyLongtorso on January 26, 2011, 10:18:44 PM
Ron Kind would be my pick, seeing as how Feingold has no ability to hold down a seat.

And risk losing yet another House seat?  Democrats need to hold as many seats as possible in the House to at the very least get back over 200. 

WI-03 is either going to become a fairly safe district (because they'll dump the Dem-friendly parts of WI-07 into it to help out Duffy) or a Republican one (if you believe Torie and his OCD map-making).


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on January 26, 2011, 10:22:08 PM
Wow, we can get both Feingold and Alan Grayson back!


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: SvenssonRS on January 26, 2011, 10:35:13 PM
Wow, we can get both Feingold and Alan Grayson back!

Where in the name of God did he come from?


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on January 26, 2011, 10:39:31 PM
The new law in Florida means they can't draw the Orlando area anymore without any Democratic districts. A new Democratic seat based in Orlando means ALAN GRAYSON can win. RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON!


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: tmthforu94 on January 26, 2011, 10:43:22 PM
I don't get why people seem to think Feingold would be such a great pick as a candidate. Let's review 2010: He entered the race with a huge lead, faced someone with zero name recognition who is alligned closely with the Tea Party, in a state that voted for Obama by double-digits just 2 years before. He completely blew his lead, and by election day, the race wasn't even that close, as Johnson won by several percentage points and had moderate leads in the polls.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on January 26, 2011, 10:51:03 PM
Well he can get re-elected when Obama destroys Sarah Palin in Wisconsin.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: tmthforu94 on January 26, 2011, 10:51:51 PM
Well he can get re-elected when Obama destroys Sarah Palin in Wisconsin.
Sarah Palin will not be the Republican Nominee.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: redcommander on January 26, 2011, 11:04:47 PM
Well he can get re-elected when Obama destroys Sarah Palin in Wisconsin.
Sarah Palin will not be the Republican Nominee.

Just like Mike Castle wasn't going to lose to O'Donnell. I suspect she won't, but in the wake of the idiocy of some primary voters, I wouldn't rule it out.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: SvenssonRS on January 26, 2011, 11:12:54 PM
Red, the joke would only be on the Democratic Party if they even remotely consider nominating Alan Grayson, for anything, ever again. Ever. The dude is objectively an asshole.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Keystone Phil on January 26, 2011, 11:30:43 PM
Well he can get re-elected when Obama destroys Sarah Palin in Wisconsin.
Sarah Palin will not be the Republican Nominee.

Just like Mike Castle wasn't going to lose to O'Donnell. I suspect she won't, but in the wake of the idiocy of some primary voters, I wouldn't rule it out.

Please don't apply what happened in one state (or a few states) in one year to a Presidential race in another year.

I'm a big believer in "almost anything can happen" in this game so I won't say that Palin definitely won't be the nominee but it isn't likely and for BRTD to assume she already is the nominee is asinine.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Chancellor Tanterterg on January 27, 2011, 09:19:09 AM
The new law in Florida means they can't draw the Orlando area anymore without any Democratic districts. A new Democratic seat based in Orlando means ALAN GRAYSON can win. RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON!

Please don't ever compare those two again...ever!  During his time in office, Feingold was one of the most independent-minded, ethical, and fearless members of Congress (not to mention, a progressive champion and a Democrat with a spine).  Alan Grayson is simply a Democratic version of Bachmann.  It's really a big insult to Feingold to compare him to Grayson.  Also, there is no reason to think Grayson will win Orlando's new Democratic seat (thankfully).


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Badger on January 27, 2011, 09:39:00 AM
The new law in Florida means they can't draw the Orlando area anymore without any Democratic districts. A new Democratic seat based in Orlando means ALAN GRAYSON can win. RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON!

Please don't ever compare those two again...ever!  During his time in office, Feingold was one of the most independent-minded, ethical, and fearless members of Congress (not to mention, a progressive champion and a Democrat with a spine).  Alan Grayson is simply a Democratic version of Bachmann.  It's really a big insult to Feingold to compare him to Grayson.  Also, there is no reason to think Grayson will win Orlando's new Democratic seat (thankfully).

And that's a gross insult of Grayson to compare hyperbole over the GOP's lack of a substantive alternative health care plan and splicing a quote for campaign commercial excusing an extreme fundy social conservative of being an extreme social fundy conservative with "Ms. 1000 yard stare" herself.

But either way, I still say Grayson and Feingold are both overrated. :P


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Torie on January 28, 2011, 12:08:52 AM
Paul Ryan has too much important work to do, to be deflected by running for the Senate. He may well the most influential man in the House at this point, and I mean that. He is going to drive the debate on where we go from here on fiscal issues, and that is what he needs to do. Ryan is around to do something, not be somebody, and that is one reason why I admire him.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Chancellor Tanterterg on January 28, 2011, 03:51:23 PM
The new law in Florida means they can't draw the Orlando area anymore without any Democratic districts. A new Democratic seat based in Orlando means ALAN GRAYSON can win. RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON!

Please don't ever compare those two again...ever!  During his time in office, Feingold was one of the most independent-minded, ethical, and fearless members of Congress (not to mention, a progressive champion and a Democrat with a spine).  Alan Grayson is simply a Democratic version of Bachmann.  It's really a big insult to Feingold to compare him to Grayson.  Also, there is no reason to think Grayson will win Orlando's new Democratic seat (thankfully).

And that's a gross insult of Grayson to compare hyperbole over the GOP's lack of a substantive alternative health care plan and splicing a quote for campaign commercial excusing an extreme fundy social conservative of being an extreme social fundy conservative with "Ms. 1000 yard stare" herself.

But either way, I still say Grayson and Feingold are both overrated. :P

First off, Grayson's ad essentially accused Webster of being a misogynist and equated him with the Taliban (unless there is some legitimate basis for such a claim, which there wasn't, that's not okay period, as far as I'm concerned).  Grayson may not be quite as bad as Bachmann, but they are cut from the same cloth.  They are both examples of the polarization, smears, and demonization of those with differing viewpoints that has polluted American politics for the past decade (especially since Obama was elected).  I'll be the first to argue that the Republicans deserve something like 70-80% of the blame for this (and probably more during Obama's presidency), but the fact is that there are some extremists on my side too (though few, if any are as bad as the tea party).  The extremists that exist on my side (that is, those that are liberal Democrats) need to be called out too.  Alan Grayson and Michele Bachmann are both examples of the same problem, which is why all of the Grayson apologists who defend him while criticizing Bachmann can be so frustrating.   


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Badger on January 28, 2011, 07:25:39 PM
The new law in Florida means they can't draw the Orlando area anymore without any Democratic districts. A new Democratic seat based in Orlando means ALAN GRAYSON can win. RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON!

Please don't ever compare those two again...ever!  During his time in office, Feingold was one of the most independent-minded, ethical, and fearless members of Congress (not to mention, a progressive champion and a Democrat with a spine).  Alan Grayson is simply a Democratic version of Bachmann.  It's really a big insult to Feingold to compare him to Grayson.  Also, there is no reason to think Grayson will win Orlando's new Democratic seat (thankfully).

And that's a gross insult of Grayson to compare hyperbole over the GOP's lack of a substantive alternative health care plan and splicing a quote for campaign commercial excusing an extreme fundy social conservative of being an extreme social fundy conservative with "Ms. 1000 yard stare" herself.

But either way, I still say Grayson and Feingold are both overrated. :P

First off, Grayson's ad essentially accused Webster of being a misogynist and equated him with the Taliban (unless there is some legitimate basis for such a claim, which there wasn't, that's not okay period, as far as I'm concerned).  Grayson may not be quite as bad as Bachmann, but they are cut from the same cloth.  They are both examples of the polarization, smears, and demonization of those with differing viewpoints that has polluted American politics for the past decade (especially since Obama was elected).  I'll be the first to argue that the Republicans deserve something like 70-80% of the blame for this (and probably more during Obama's presidency), but the fact is that there are some extremists on my side too (though few, if any are as bad as the tea party).  The extremists that exist on my side (that is, those that are liberal Democrats) need to be called out too.  Alan Grayson and Michele Bachmann are both examples of the same problem, which is why all of the Grayson apologists who defend him while criticizing Bachmann can be so frustrating.  

Webster's voting record on social issues was extreme even by southern standards. There's little more misogynistic than proposing a "covenant marriage" as Webster did that would essentially eliminate almost every legal grounds for marriage including domestic violence. The fact that such a marriage could only be entered into "voluntarily" so it might only apply to women pressured by their families or fiances (abusers tend to be emotionally dominating types demanding absolute compliance with their wishes) is hardly any comfort or excuse to any legislator who thinks that having your husband kicking your teeth out isn't sufficient grounds "in the eyes of God" for the sin of divorce.

No, Webster isn't literally about to go to Kandahar and fire RPG's at US forces, but his social views such as his proposed law above, and many like it, are reminiscent of Taliban style Sharia law. The fact he bases it on a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible instead of the Koran shouldn't matter if the end result is the same.

Again, I'm not defending Grayson overall--he's vastly overrated and couldn't control his rhetoric. But I balk heavily at saying just because Grayson is arguably "the worst" among Democrats for irresponsible statements, and Bachmann is (among) the worst for Republicans saying stupid crazy things they believe, somehow means they're both "equal". And, while you're not falling for it, I'm tired of too many people taking the intellectually lazy way out of saying "they're all just as bad as the other". That's like saying the Seahawks (7-9) and the Steelers (soon to be 7 time Super Bowl Champs ;)) are comparably good team because they both finished first in their division.

The end result being that everytime Beck says something utterly insane on his show, or Louis Gohmert or Bachmann, or one of a hundred other nuts on that side of the aisle says something cringingly stupid and off the wall, no matter how bad it is liberal commentators and congressmembers suffer just as bad as conservatives because of the constant refrain "Their all just the same. They're all just as bad".


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: RI on January 28, 2011, 10:22:07 PM
Other than the domestic violence part, I 100% support that covenant marriage bill.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on January 28, 2011, 10:25:03 PM
People also ignore just how nutty that convention Webster was speaking at was and instead just focus only on Grayson taking the statement out of context. Simply speaking at something like that is enough reason to keep someone out of public office.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Keystone Phil on January 29, 2011, 12:58:09 AM
and the Steelers (soon to be 6 time Super Bowl Champs ;))

The Steelers have already won six Super Bowls.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Nichlemn on January 29, 2011, 02:18:02 AM
Whether you think Grayson or Bachmann is the "bigger nutter" depends heavily on whether you generally agree with them. It's not just partisan hackery, it reflects the fundamental differences in beliefs. It's nearly impossible to evaluate their beliefs objectively without degrading to a partisan sludgematch.

If you genuinely believe that Republicans are evil and Democrats are good (or vice versa), you're going to call the statement "Democrats are evil" hyperbole but not "Republicans are evil", even though they're the exact same statement with the party labels switched around, because hey, Republicans really are evil, right?


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: SvenssonRS on January 29, 2011, 02:29:45 AM
People also ignore just how nutty that convention Webster was speaking at was and instead just focus only on Grayson taking the statement out of context. Simply speaking at something like that is enough reason to keep someone out of public office.

Let's not forget, that wasn't the only instance in which Alan Grayson was a freakish nutjob. He practically made being one his entire career.

Well, until he lost, thus ruining any chance he'll ever have of returning. Ever.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Chancellor Tanterterg on January 29, 2011, 02:28:16 PM
The new law in Florida means they can't draw the Orlando area anymore without any Democratic districts. A new Democratic seat based in Orlando means ALAN GRAYSON can win. RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON!

Please don't ever compare those two again...ever!  During his time in office, Feingold was one of the most independent-minded, ethical, and fearless members of Congress (not to mention, a progressive champion and a Democrat with a spine).  Alan Grayson is simply a Democratic version of Bachmann.  It's really a big insult to Feingold to compare him to Grayson.  Also, there is no reason to think Grayson will win Orlando's new Democratic seat (thankfully).

And that's a gross insult of Grayson to compare hyperbole over the GOP's lack of a substantive alternative health care plan and splicing a quote for campaign commercial excusing an extreme fundy social conservative of being an extreme social fundy conservative with "Ms. 1000 yard stare" herself.

But either way, I still say Grayson and Feingold are both overrated. :P

First off, Grayson's ad essentially accused Webster of being a misogynist and equated him with the Taliban (unless there is some legitimate basis for such a claim, which there wasn't, that's not okay period, as far as I'm concerned).  Grayson may not be quite as bad as Bachmann, but they are cut from the same cloth.  They are both examples of the polarization, smears, and demonization of those with differing viewpoints that has polluted American politics for the past decade (especially since Obama was elected).  I'll be the first to argue that the Republicans deserve something like 70-80% of the blame for this (and probably more during Obama's presidency), but the fact is that there are some extremists on my side too (though few, if any are as bad as the tea party).  The extremists that exist on my side (that is, those that are liberal Democrats) need to be called out too.  Alan Grayson and Michele Bachmann are both examples of the same problem, which is why all of the Grayson apologists who defend him while criticizing Bachmann can be so frustrating.   

Webster's voting record on social issues was extreme even by southern standards. There's little more misogynistic than proposing a "covenant marriage" as Webster did that would essentially eliminate almost every legal grounds for marriage including domestic violence. The fact that such a marriage could only be entered into "voluntarily" so it might only apply to women pressured by their families or fiances (abusers tend to be emotionally dominating types demanding absolute compliance with their wishes) is hardly any comfort or excuse to any legislator who thinks that having your husband kicking your teeth out isn't sufficient grounds "in the eyes of God" for the sin of divorce.

No, Webster isn't literally about to go to Kandahar and fire RPG's at US forces, but his social views such as his proposed law above, and many like it, are reminiscent of Taliban style Sharia law. The fact he bases it on a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible instead of the Koran shouldn't matter if the end result is the same.

Again, I'm not defending Grayson overall--he's vastly overrated and couldn't control his rhetoric. But I balk heavily at saying just because Grayson is arguably "the worst" among Democrats for irresponsible statements, and Bachmann is (among) the worst for Republicans saying stupid crazy things they believe, somehow means they're both "equal". And, while you're not falling for it, I'm tired of too many people taking the intellectually lazy way out of saying "they're all just as bad as the other". That's like saying the Seahawks (7-9) and the Steelers (soon to be 6 time Super Bowl Champs ;)) are comparably good team because they both finished first in their division.

The end result being that everytime Beck says something utterly insane on his show, or Louis Gohmert or Bachmann, or one of a hundred other nuts on that side of the aisle says something cringingly stupid and off the wall, no matter how bad it is liberal commentators and congressmembers suffer just as bad as conservatives because of the constant refrain "Their all just the same. They're all just as bad".

I'm not saying Webster doesn't hold some extremist views, but I do think that Grayson's ad crossed the line (specifically by equating his opponent with the Taliban, that sort of stuff doesn't belong in political discourse).  Grayson could've run an ad about what Webster actually said, the Taliban comparison was wrong, period.  It wasn't wrong because Webster's Christian and the Taliban are Muslim, it was wrong because they're is a terrorist organization that has tortured and murdered people and Webster is a right-wing Congressman with some extreme views (it's an insult to the victims of the Taliban to compare the two).  For the record, I do believe that Bachmann is worse than Grayson, but that is beside the point.  The point is that this stuff isn't okay no matter who does it and it's not a defense to say that the other side is worse, even though that's true (I know you weren't saying that was an excuse).  Another problem I have with the ad is that Grayson's campaign edited Webster's statements mid-sentance in the ad so that it looked like Webster was saying something he wasn't saying.  Btw, I  agreed with what you said about how frustrating the intellectually lazy responses are


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Napoleon on January 29, 2011, 04:00:16 PM
^

+1 for civility and rationality.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Torie on January 29, 2011, 07:32:11 PM
People also ignore just how nutty that convention Webster was speaking at was and instead just focus only on Grayson taking the statement out of context. Simply speaking at something like that is enough reason to keep someone out of public office.

What convention was that?  Might you have a link BRTD? Thanks.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on January 29, 2011, 10:27:02 PM
http://politifact.com/florida/statements/2010/sep/28/alan-grayson/alan-grayson-calls-opponent-taliban-daniel-webster/

It's a source critical of Grayson's ad too, but it does cover what Webster was speaking at:

Quote
The Institute in Basic Life Principles describes itself as a Christian teaching organization that provides training and instruction on how to find success by following God’s principles found in Scripture. Some of its specific teachings are controversial. Among them, the Institute teaches that a mother violates Scripture when she works outside the home, that married couples are to abstain from sex 40 days after the birth of a son, 80 days after the birth of a daughter and the evening prior to worship, and that people should avoid rock and even contemporary Christian music because it can be addictive.

Webster has been involved with the group for nearly 30 years and continues to participate in training and also speaks at seminars.

The one in bold I found most bizarre, and there's more info here: http://www.pfo.org/evol-fad.htm

But put simply this is a group which is far out of the mainstream even by fundie standards.

People also ignore just how nutty that convention Webster was speaking at was and instead just focus only on Grayson taking the statement out of context. Simply speaking at something like that is enough reason to keep someone out of public office.

Let's not forget, that wasn't the only instance in which Alan Grayson was a freakish nutjob. He practically made being one his entire career.

Well, until he lost, thus ruining any chance he'll ever have of returning. Ever.

What if a D+15 or so seat is drawn where he lives? It's very likely under Florida's new redistricting law. The Republicans can't deny the Democrats any districts in the Orlando area under fair drawing of the lines.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: JohnnyLongtorso on January 30, 2011, 07:08:47 AM
What exactly does Alan Grayson have to do with the fact that Herb Kohl is apparently not retiring (at least, not yet)?


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on January 30, 2011, 12:43:07 PM
He came up when I was discussing about how much I want both Feingold and Grayson back.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Chancellor Tanterterg on January 30, 2011, 02:05:51 PM
http://politifact.com/florida/statements/2010/sep/28/alan-grayson/alan-grayson-calls-opponent-taliban-daniel-webster/

It's a source critical of Grayson's ad too, but it does cover what Webster was speaking at:

Quote
The Institute in Basic Life Principles describes itself as a Christian teaching organization that provides training and instruction on how to find success by following God’s principles found in Scripture. Some of its specific teachings are controversial. Among them, the Institute teaches that a mother violates Scripture when she works outside the home, that married couples are to abstain from sex 40 days after the birth of a son, 80 days after the birth of a daughter and the evening prior to worship, and that people should avoid rock and even contemporary Christian music because it can be addictive.

Webster has been involved with the group for nearly 30 years and continues to participate in training and also speaks at seminars.

The one in bold I found most bizarre, and there's more info here: http://www.pfo.org/evol-fad.htm

But put simply this is a group which is far out of the mainstream even by fundie standards.

People also ignore just how nutty that convention Webster was speaking at was and instead just focus only on Grayson taking the statement out of context. Simply speaking at something like that is enough reason to keep someone out of public office.

Let's not forget, that wasn't the only instance in which Alan Grayson was a freakish nutjob. He practically made being one his entire career.

Well, until he lost, thus ruining any chance he'll ever have of returning. Ever.

What if a D+15 or so seat is drawn where he lives? It's very likely under Florida's new redistricting law. The Republicans can't deny the Democrats any districts in the Orlando area under fair drawing of the lines.

None of which justifies Grayson's ad.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Badger on January 30, 2011, 02:35:58 PM
and the Steelers (soon to be 6 time Super Bowl Champs ;))

The Steelers have already won six Super Bowls.

D'OH!! I wasn't sure whether to write "current six time champs" or "soon to be seven time champs" and did neither. :P Correction forthwith, but thank you Phil for immortalizing a post that will forever undermine my cred in Steeler Nation. :-[


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Badger on January 30, 2011, 03:00:08 PM
The new law in Florida means they can't draw the Orlando area anymore without any Democratic districts. A new Democratic seat based in Orlando means ALAN GRAYSON can win. RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON!

Please don't ever compare those two again...ever!  During his time in office, Feingold was one of the most independent-minded, ethical, and fearless members of Congress (not to mention, a progressive champion and a Democrat with a spine).  Alan Grayson is simply a Democratic version of Bachmann.  It's really a big insult to Feingold to compare him to Grayson.  Also, there is no reason to think Grayson will win Orlando's new Democratic seat (thankfully).

And that's a gross insult of Grayson to compare hyperbole over the GOP's lack of a substantive alternative health care plan and splicing a quote for campaign commercial excusing an extreme fundy social conservative of being an extreme social fundy conservative with "Ms. 1000 yard stare" herself.

But either way, I still say Grayson and Feingold are both overrated. :P

First off, Grayson's ad essentially accused Webster of being a misogynist and equated him with the Taliban (unless there is some legitimate basis for such a claim, which there wasn't, that's not okay period, as far as I'm concerned).  Grayson may not be quite as bad as Bachmann, but they are cut from the same cloth.  They are both examples of the polarization, smears, and demonization of those with differing viewpoints that has polluted American politics for the past decade (especially since Obama was elected).  I'll be the first to argue that the Republicans deserve something like 70-80% of the blame for this (and probably more during Obama's presidency), but the fact is that there are some extremists on my side too (though few, if any are as bad as the tea party).  The extremists that exist on my side (that is, those that are liberal Democrats) need to be called out too.  Alan Grayson and Michele Bachmann are both examples of the same problem, which is why all of the Grayson apologists who defend him while criticizing Bachmann can be so frustrating.   

Webster's voting record on social issues was extreme even by southern standards. There's little more misogynistic than proposing a "covenant marriage" as Webster did that would essentially eliminate almost every legal grounds for marriage including domestic violence. The fact that such a marriage could only be entered into "voluntarily" so it might only apply to women pressured by their families or fiances (abusers tend to be emotionally dominating types demanding absolute compliance with their wishes) is hardly any comfort or excuse to any legislator who thinks that having your husband kicking your teeth out isn't sufficient grounds "in the eyes of God" for the sin of divorce.

No, Webster isn't literally about to go to Kandahar and fire RPG's at US forces, but his social views such as his proposed law above, and many like it, are reminiscent of Taliban style Sharia law. The fact he bases it on a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible instead of the Koran shouldn't matter if the end result is the same.

Again, I'm not defending Grayson overall--he's vastly overrated and couldn't control his rhetoric. But I balk heavily at saying just because Grayson is arguably "the worst" among Democrats for irresponsible statements, and Bachmann is (among) the worst for Republicans saying stupid crazy things they believe, somehow means they're both "equal". And, while you're not falling for it, I'm tired of too many people taking the intellectually lazy way out of saying "they're all just as bad as the other". That's like saying the Seahawks (7-9) and the Steelers (soon to be 6 time Super Bowl Champs ;)) are comparably good team because they both finished first in their division.

The end result being that everytime Beck says something utterly insane on his show, or Louis Gohmert or Bachmann, or one of a hundred other nuts on that side of the aisle says something cringingly stupid and off the wall, no matter how bad it is liberal commentators and congressmembers suffer just as bad as conservatives because of the constant refrain "Their all just the same. They're all just as bad".

I'm not saying Webster doesn't hold some extremist views, but I do think that Grayson's ad crossed the line (specifically by equating his opponent with the Taliban, that sort of stuff doesn't belong in political discourse).  Grayson could've run an ad about what Webster actually said, the Taliban comparison was wrong, period.  It wasn't wrong because Webster's Christian and the Taliban are Muslim, it was wrong because they're is a terrorist organization that has tortured and murdered people and Webster is a right-wing Congressman with some extreme views (it's an insult to the victims of the Taliban to compare the two).  For the record, I do believe that Bachmann is worse than Grayson, but that is beside the point.  The point is that this stuff isn't okay no matter who does it and it's not a defense to say that the other side is worse, even though that's true (I know you weren't saying that was an excuse).  Another problem I have with the ad is that Grayson's campaign edited Webster's statements mid-sentance in the ad so that it looked like Webster was saying something he wasn't saying.  Btw, I  agreed with what you said about how frustrating the intellectually lazy responses are

I actually 90% agree with everything you wrote. My point isn't that Bachmann, or Gohmert, or Beck, or  DeMint, or Limbaugh, or Palin, or King, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. makes Grayson crossing the line okay. My point is we need to distinguish between a congressman who went over the line in an ad and engaged in a bit of hyperbole on the House floor to mock the utter paucity of the GOP's joke of a health reform "plan", with a congresswomen--plus many other prominent other of her rabid right wing colleagues--who have made countless statements of their beliefs that push them past mere extremely conservative or "provaocative" to outright bats#it insane.

Nichlmen's comment above that much of perception as to who is more crazy and extreme depends on which side of the political fence one is is aaccurate re: the way most way most detaatched voters watching the news out of the cormer of their eye see things, but dead wrong in terms of whether its actually accurate. This is more than an issue of semantics: The more prominaent and powerful nutcakes on the right display the bizzaroworld that is their thought process, the more even the most reasonable and rational outspoken advocates on the left (of which I do not incluide Grayson) get labeled as merely equally crazy and extreme counterparts to borderline mental cases like Bachmann, Beck, Gohmert and Beck. That's all I'm saying. [/threadjack]


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Torie on January 30, 2011, 05:08:07 PM
He came up when I was discussing about how much I want both Feingold and Grayson back.

Thanks for the link BRTD. Yes, the outfit has achieved escape velocity, and is headed to places where relatively few mere humans have gone before.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Chancellor Tanterterg on January 31, 2011, 01:19:33 PM
The new law in Florida means they can't draw the Orlando area anymore without any Democratic districts. A new Democratic seat based in Orlando means ALAN GRAYSON can win. RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON!

Please don't ever compare those two again...ever!  During his time in office, Feingold was one of the most independent-minded, ethical, and fearless members of Congress (not to mention, a progressive champion and a Democrat with a spine).  Alan Grayson is simply a Democratic version of Bachmann.  It's really a big insult to Feingold to compare him to Grayson.  Also, there is no reason to think Grayson will win Orlando's new Democratic seat (thankfully).

And that's a gross insult of Grayson to compare hyperbole over the GOP's lack of a substantive alternative health care plan and splicing a quote for campaign commercial excusing an extreme fundy social conservative of being an extreme social fundy conservative with "Ms. 1000 yard stare" herself.

But either way, I still say Grayson and Feingold are both overrated. :P

First off, Grayson's ad essentially accused Webster of being a misogynist and equated him with the Taliban (unless there is some legitimate basis for such a claim, which there wasn't, that's not okay period, as far as I'm concerned).  Grayson may not be quite as bad as Bachmann, but they are cut from the same cloth.  They are both examples of the polarization, smears, and demonization of those with differing viewpoints that has polluted American politics for the past decade (especially since Obama was elected).  I'll be the first to argue that the Republicans deserve something like 70-80% of the blame for this (and probably more during Obama's presidency), but the fact is that there are some extremists on my side too (though few, if any are as bad as the tea party).  The extremists that exist on my side (that is, those that are liberal Democrats) need to be called out too.  Alan Grayson and Michele Bachmann are both examples of the same problem, which is why all of the Grayson apologists who defend him while criticizing Bachmann can be so frustrating.   

Webster's voting record on social issues was extreme even by southern standards. There's little more misogynistic than proposing a "covenant marriage" as Webster did that would essentially eliminate almost every legal grounds for marriage including domestic violence. The fact that such a marriage could only be entered into "voluntarily" so it might only apply to women pressured by their families or fiances (abusers tend to be emotionally dominating types demanding absolute compliance with their wishes) is hardly any comfort or excuse to any legislator who thinks that having your husband kicking your teeth out isn't sufficient grounds "in the eyes of God" for the sin of divorce.

No, Webster isn't literally about to go to Kandahar and fire RPG's at US forces, but his social views such as his proposed law above, and many like it, are reminiscent of Taliban style Sharia law. The fact he bases it on a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible instead of the Koran shouldn't matter if the end result is the same.

Again, I'm not defending Grayson overall--he's vastly overrated and couldn't control his rhetoric. But I balk heavily at saying just because Grayson is arguably "the worst" among Democrats for irresponsible statements, and Bachmann is (among) the worst for Republicans saying stupid crazy things they believe, somehow means they're both "equal". And, while you're not falling for it, I'm tired of too many people taking the intellectually lazy way out of saying "they're all just as bad as the other". That's like saying the Seahawks (7-9) and the Steelers (soon to be 6 time Super Bowl Champs ;)) are comparably good team because they both finished first in their division.

The end result being that everytime Beck says something utterly insane on his show, or Louis Gohmert or Bachmann, or one of a hundred other nuts on that side of the aisle says something cringingly stupid and off the wall, no matter how bad it is liberal commentators and congressmembers suffer just as bad as conservatives because of the constant refrain "Their all just the same. They're all just as bad".

I'm not saying Webster doesn't hold some extremist views, but I do think that Grayson's ad crossed the line (specifically by equating his opponent with the Taliban, that sort of stuff doesn't belong in political discourse).  Grayson could've run an ad about what Webster actually said, the Taliban comparison was wrong, period.  It wasn't wrong because Webster's Christian and the Taliban are Muslim, it was wrong because they're is a terrorist organization that has tortured and murdered people and Webster is a right-wing Congressman with some extreme views (it's an insult to the victims of the Taliban to compare the two).  For the record, I do believe that Bachmann is worse than Grayson, but that is beside the point.  The point is that this stuff isn't okay no matter who does it and it's not a defense to say that the other side is worse, even though that's true (I know you weren't saying that was an excuse).  Another problem I have with the ad is that Grayson's campaign edited Webster's statements mid-sentance in the ad so that it looked like Webster was saying something he wasn't saying.  Btw, I  agreed with what you said about how frustrating the intellectually lazy responses are

I actually 90% agree with everything you wrote. My point isn't that Bachmann, or Gohmert, or Beck, or  DeMint, or Limbaugh, or Palin, or King, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. makes Grayson crossing the line okay. My point is we need to distinguish between a congressman who went over the line in an ad and engaged in a bit of hyperbole on the House floor to mock the utter paucity of the GOP's joke of a health reform "plan", with a congresswomen--plus many other prominent other of her rabid right wing colleagues--who have made countless statements of their beliefs that push them past mere extremely conservative or "provaocative" to outright bats#it insane.

Nichlmen's comment above that much of perception as to who is more crazy and extreme depends on which side of the political fence one is is aaccurate re: the way most way most detaatched voters watching the news out of the cormer of their eye see things, but dead wrong in terms of whether its actually accurate. This is more than an issue of semantics: The more prominaent and powerful nutcakes on the right display the bizzaroworld that is their thought process, the more even the most reasonable and rational outspoken advocates on the left (of which I do not incluide Grayson) get labeled as merely equally crazy and extreme counterparts to borderline mental cases like Bachmann, Beck, Gohmert and Beck. That's all I'm saying. [/threadjack]

I agree with you about that completely.  It is not a question of opinion, it is simply factually wrong to suggest that both sides are anything close to equally bad.  The tea party is dominated by extremists and if they tell the rest of the Republican party to jump, the Republican party's only question is "how high?"  The left has a few people like Grayson, Steve Cohen (maybe?) but honestly, there really aren't that many other liberal extremists who have real influence (and before someone drags up posts from the dailykos, random kos posters think about how much influence they really have).  On the right you have Beck, Bachmann, Palin, Gohmert, Paul (both of them), Gingrich, Hannity, Limbaugh, Steve King, Toomey, the Club for Growth, the tea party in general, DeMint, Perry, Schmidt, Issa, Joe Arpaio, Coburn, Inhofe, etc, etc, etc.


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on January 31, 2011, 02:37:51 PM
What is so extreme about Cohen?


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Chancellor Tanterterg on January 31, 2011, 03:29:55 PM

Cohen compared Republicans calling Obama's healthcare bill a government takeover to Goebbels/what the Nazis said about Jews.  I have been appalled by the way in which Nazi comparisons are becoming a part of political discourse in the U.S. (once again, Republicans in general and Fox News in particular are far, far, far more at fault here, but once again, that is no excuse).  I am aware that Cohen is Jewish and that only makes it worse because he of all people should know better.  It doesn't matter whether he was only using the comparison to make a point, Nazi comparisons are wrong period.   


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Capitan Zapp Brannigan on January 31, 2011, 09:41:53 PM
Going back to the actual topic, there has been some news on the Kohl front.

http://hotlineoncall.nationaljournal.com/archives/2011/01/kohl-loans-warc.php


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: MASHED POTATOES. VOTE! on January 31, 2011, 09:48:27 PM
Can anyone name a signature accomplishment by Kohl?

Having cause, by retirement rumour, an orgasm among many poster?


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: Keystone Phil on January 31, 2011, 09:49:12 PM
Going back to the actual topic, there has been some news on the Kohl front.

http://hotlineoncall.nationaljournal.com/archives/2011/01/kohl-loans-warc.php

Yeah, my source ended up telling me today that he guesses he was wrong about this. Sorry for the false alarm.  :(


Title: Re: Herb Kohl apparently retiring.
Post by: MASHED POTATOES. VOTE! on January 31, 2011, 09:51:05 PM
As of Grayson, while I agree a lot with his views, truth is, he's a clown, a Democratic version of Michele Bachmann: both would be extremely annoying hacks if ever posted on Atlas. He's nothing in a comparision to such a man like Russ Feingold. Period.