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Title: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on February 17, 2011, 11:28:57 AM http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110216/ap_on_re_us/us_wisconsin_budget_unions
MADISON, Wis. – Thousands of teachers, prison guards and students descended on the Wisconsin Capitol for a second day Wednesday to fight a move to take union rights away from government workers in the state that first granted them more than a half-century ago. The Statehouse filled with as many as 10,000 demonstrators who chanted, sang the national anthem and beat drums for hours. The noise level in the Rotunda rose to the level of a chainsaw, and many Madison teachers joined the protest by calling in sick in such numbers that the district had to cancel classes. The new Republican governor, Scott Walker, is seeking passage of the nation's most aggressive anti-union proposal, which was moving swiftly through the GOP-led Legislature. If adopted, it would mark a dramatic shift for Wisconsin, which passed a comprehensive collective bargaining law in 1959 and was the birthplace of the national union representing all non-federal public employees. It's amazing how underhanded and thuggish some of these people have behaved over the last 3 months. For those who don't know, Wisconsin Democrats got demolished up and down the ballot in November, so they tried to ram through a lame duck union contract. They bailed a House Democrat out of jail to pass the contracts in the House, but they failed in the Senate when outgoing Democrat leader Russell Decker decided to vote his conscience. Democrats prompty relieved Decker of his majority leader status. Here is a profile on the courage of Russell Decker. http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/column/article_0a855d84-a762-5b7c-ad35-0737bdee9f90.html Wisconsin union boss Marty Beil was not happy that Wisconsin Democrat Russell Decker wasn't doing his bidding, so he turned Decker into a pariah and called him a wh*re. So much for civility? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 17, 2011, 11:31:58 AM The smell of springtime is in the air. The long winter is finally coming to an end.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Brittain33 on February 17, 2011, 11:48:55 AM It is tyranny if the legislature does something the protesters disagree with. Tea Party 2011!
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 17, 2011, 11:52:15 AM It is tyranny if the legislature does something the protesters disagree with. Tea Party 2011! If that's what they choose to believe they are more than welcome to. But I don't think the average American cares much for namecalling or lame duck shenanighans. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Brittain33 on February 17, 2011, 11:53:09 AM It is tyranny if the legislature does something the protesters disagree with. Tea Party 2011! If that's what they choose to believe they are more than welcome to. But I don't think the average American cares much for namecalling or lame duck shenanighans. How arrogant to ignore the voice of the people. Maybe they need tri-cornered hats to get your attention. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Lief 🗽 on February 17, 2011, 12:15:29 PM The protesters in Madison are of course heroes, and I hope that they inspire similar protests in other cities.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 17, 2011, 12:18:15 PM The protesters in Madison are of course heroes, and I hope that they inspire similar protests in other cities. I hope it inspires the issuance of pink slips to them, myself. Different strokes for different folks. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 17, 2011, 12:19:05 PM The protesters in Madison are of course heroes, and I hope that they inspire similar protests in other cities. Truthfully, I always wondered why so called 'progessives' believed in the transferrence of wealth from low income private sector consumers to upper income state pensioners. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Brittain33 on February 17, 2011, 12:21:04 PM The protesters in Madison are of course heroes, and I hope that they inspire similar protests in other cities. Truthfully, I always wondered why so called 'progessives' believed in the transferrence of wealth from low income private sector consumers to upper income state pensioners. We call it "freedom." Maybe you've heard of it. It's what our Founders fought for. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on February 17, 2011, 12:23:43 PM If only these protesters had dressed up in 18th century garb and held signs with horrible spelling about how Obama is simultaneously a Muslim, Socialist and Nazi. Then they would be true American patriots.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Brittain33 on February 17, 2011, 12:24:58 PM If only these protesters had dressed up in 18th century garb and held signs with horrible spelling about how Obama is simultaneously a Muslim, Socialist and Nazi. Then they would be true American patriots. Carly Melin's win is a shot across the bow against our would-be tyrants. The voters are coming for you, better backtrack on everything you were elected to do. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on February 17, 2011, 12:25:22 PM The protesters in Madison are of course heroes, and I hope that they inspire similar protests in other cities. Truthfully, I always wondered why so called 'progessives' believed in the transferrence of wealth from low income private sector consumers to upper income state pensioners. We call it "freedom." Maybe you've heard of it. It's what our Founders fought for. I remember when Reagan freed the air traffic controllers from their bondage. ;) Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: tpfkaw on February 17, 2011, 12:28:11 PM If only these protesters had dressed up in 18th century garb and held signs with horrible spelling about how Obama is simultaneously a Muslim, Socialist and Nazi. Then they would be true American patriots. Nah, the identical glossy machine-printed sign look is much snappier. Bonus points if they're all wearing identical t-shirts too. Of course, it's really only first-rate when they hire people at minimum wage to protest for them. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Nhoj on February 17, 2011, 01:23:12 PM The smell of springtime is in the air. The long winter is finally coming to an end. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 17, 2011, 01:39:50 PM We call it "freedom." Maybe you've heard of it. It's what our Founders fought for. The Founders believed in the 'freedom' to abuse collective bargaining to abuse the taxpayer? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 17, 2011, 01:53:25 PM The protesters in Madison are of course heroes, and I hope that they inspire similar protests in other cities. I hope it inspires the issuance of pink slips to them, myself. Different strokes for different folks. One would also hope you are fired soon for 'making too much money', Torie. Or even better, jailed. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Sam Spade on February 17, 2011, 01:55:11 PM The protesters in Madison are of course heroes, and I hope that they inspire similar protests in other cities. I hope it inspires the issuance of pink slips to them, myself. Different strokes for different folks. As do I. Meanwhile, state Dem Senators are channeling Texas Democrats for a response. http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116381289.html Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 17, 2011, 01:58:23 PM The protesters in Madison are of course heroes, and I hope that they inspire similar protests in other cities. I hope it inspires the issuance of pink slips to them, myself. Different strokes for different folks. As do I. So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS? You make more than them and are not fired. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 17, 2011, 02:00:56 PM The protesters in Madison are of course heroes, and I hope that they inspire similar protests in other cities. I hope it inspires the issuance of pink slips to them, myself. Different strokes for different folks. One would also hope you are fired soon for 'making too much money', Torie. Or even better, jailed. I have already done jail Opebo, and for some reason the sheriffs did not get the good news that I was an owner lawyer, who probably should have been just let go immediately, or at a minimum, well say, be treated like something other than human vermin for starters, since as you say, these guys are really working for me. Is that any way to treat your boss? And I am doing my best about "making too much money" by moving my life style closer to yours, and am making quite amazing progress actually. Obama suddenly cares a heck of a lot more for me now, and I can just feel the love beaming towards me all the way from DC. So at least give me an "A" for effort Opebo. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 17, 2011, 02:05:14 PM I have already done jail Opebo, and for some reason the sheriffs did not get the good news that I was an owner lawyer, who probably should have been just let go immediately, or at a minimum, well say, be treated like something other than human vermin for starters, since as you say, these guys are really working for me. Is that any way to treat your boss? And I am doing my best about "making too much money" by moving my life style closer to yours, and am making quite amazing progress actually. Obama suddenly cares a heck of a lot more for me now, and I can just feel the love beaming towards me all the way from DC. So at least give me an "A" for effort Opebo. Just pointing out your hypocrisy, T. Nothing wrong with being a hypocrit, any more than being a crossdresser, but you can't expect people to pretend your not standing there in a tu-tu and a tiara. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 17, 2011, 02:07:41 PM So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS? You make more than them and are not fired. Mostly because there's no money to pay them. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 17, 2011, 02:14:36 PM The spectacle of some people showing more outrage against teachers than against the Wall Strett wizards and bankers who brought the world economy to its knees, is really depressing.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Franzl on February 17, 2011, 02:21:58 PM I still think Walker's an idiot....but public employee unions are a terrible disease.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 17, 2011, 02:25:07 PM I still think Walker's an idiot....but public employee unions are a terrible disease. When someone has a rotten tooth, the therapy isn't cutting his head off. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: tpfkaw on February 17, 2011, 02:34:14 PM I still think Walker's an idiot....but public employee unions are a terrible disease. When someone has a rotten tooth, the therapy isn't cutting his head off. Actually, it's more like if you have a mass-murdering serial rapist with a rotten tooth. Cutting the head off seems like a fairly reasonable solution. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: CultureKing on February 17, 2011, 02:36:31 PM The spectacle of some people showing more outrage against teachers than against the Wall Strett wizards and bankers who brought the world economy to its knees, is really depressing. This one. How can anyone really assert that teachers are somehow fleecing the public? For the level of education they have and the amount of work they do they are paid relatively little. We really need to take a fresh look on who benefits society most. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Sam Spade on February 17, 2011, 02:43:30 PM The protesters in Madison are of course heroes, and I hope that they inspire similar protests in other cities. I hope it inspires the issuance of pink slips to them, myself. Different strokes for different folks. As do I. So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS? You make more than them and are not fired. They're public employees, lazy as sh!t and don't know anything. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: tpfkaw on February 17, 2011, 02:47:41 PM http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110217/ap_on_re_us/us_wisconsin_budget_unions/ (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110217/ap_on_re_us/us_wisconsin_budget_unions/)
How ridiculous. Although it would be excellent if they continued to do so, and everyone else followed their lead. Go WI Democrats! Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Smash255 on February 17, 2011, 02:53:44 PM So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS? You make more than them and are not fired. Mostly because there's no money to pay them. If that was the case than why not go after the Police and Firefighters Unions?? Why exempt them? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: tpfkaw on February 17, 2011, 02:55:19 PM So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS? You make more than them and are not fired. Mostly because there's no money to pay them. If that was the case than why not go after the Police and Firefighters Unions?? Why exempt them? Oh, go after them first. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Brittain33 on February 17, 2011, 03:14:49 PM You know, I don't disagree with the general idea that public employee unions have to deal with budget issues... but Walker's bill goes well beyond that to try to absolutely pulverize the unions to bits. I don't blame them for fighting back. We aren't talking about a small change in formulae, we're talking about dismantling the unions. He overreached.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 17, 2011, 03:15:16 PM So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS? You make more than them and are not fired. Mostly because there's no money to pay them. If that was the case than why not go after the Police and Firefighters Unions?? Why exempt them? In CA, they are the worst, particularly the fire fighters. Some with all the benefits make over 500K per year. And then the featherbedding - oh the featherbedding. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 17, 2011, 03:17:16 PM So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS? You make more than them and are not fired. Mostly because there's no money to pay them. So raise taxes. So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS? You make more than them and are not fired. They're public employees, lazy as sh!t and don't know anything. No, you are lazier and less useful than them, but you are not fired. (see how fun subjective judgements can be?) Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Brittain33 on February 17, 2011, 03:21:02 PM So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS? You make more than them and are not fired. Mostly because there's no money to pay them. If that was the case than why not go after the Police and Firefighters Unions?? Why exempt them? Oh, go after them first. They supported Walker's campaign, so that's not going to happen. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on February 17, 2011, 03:29:32 PM From the AP (Happy, Lunar? :) )
Police officers were searching for Democratic state lawmakers who had not shown up for a vote on the sweeping legislation. The state Senate Democrats did not show up when they were ordered to attend a midday vote on the legislation. Though Republicans hold a 19-14 majority, they need at least one Democrat present to vote. CNN reiterated radio reports that indicated Democratic state legislators had boarded a bus and left town. Mike Browne, communications director for Wisconsin Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller, told the network he had not been in contact with any Democratic legislators on Thursday. Browne said he was at the state Capitol and that he had seen no Democrats show up Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on February 17, 2011, 03:33:57 PM The protesters in Madison are of course heroes, and I hope that they inspire similar protests in other cities. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Marokai Backbeat on February 17, 2011, 03:36:13 PM Alot of union bashing from the usual suspects, here. Not surprising and still disgusting. The amount of people who want to effectively repeal the entire 20th century is blowing me away.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 17, 2011, 03:36:21 PM So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS? You make more than them and are not fired. Mostly because there's no money to pay them. If that was the case than why not go after the Police and Firefighters Unions?? Why exempt them? In CA, they are the worst, particularly the fire fighters. Some with all the benefits make over 500K per year. And then the featherbedding - oh the featherbedding. If that's the case then you should scold Walker, not praise him. Dividing public workers into privileged and non-privileged is disgusting and makes Walker a vindictive prick who punishes those that supported his opponent, not some kind of role model for fiscal conservatism. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Verily on February 17, 2011, 03:38:09 PM From the AP (Happy, Lunar? :) ) Police officers were searching for Democratic state lawmakers who had not shown up for a vote on the sweeping legislation. The state Senate Democrats did not show up when they were ordered to attend a midday vote on the legislation. Though Republicans hold a 19-14 majority, they need at least one Democrat present to vote. CNN reiterated radio reports that indicated Democratic state legislators had boarded a bus and left town. Mike Browne, communications director for Wisconsin Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller, told the network he had not been in contact with any Democratic legislators on Thursday. Browne said he was at the state Capitol and that he had seen no Democrats show up Much as I find quorum denial to be an underhanded tactic, how can it be legal to have the police drag legislators to the legislature and force them to vote? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on February 17, 2011, 03:40:25 PM From the AP (Happy, Lunar? :) ) Police officers were searching for Democratic state lawmakers who had not shown up for a vote on the sweeping legislation. The state Senate Democrats did not show up when they were ordered to attend a midday vote on the legislation. Though Republicans hold a 19-14 majority, they need at least one Democrat present to vote. CNN reiterated radio reports that indicated Democratic state legislators had boarded a bus and left town. Mike Browne, communications director for Wisconsin Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller, told the network he had not been in contact with any Democratic legislators on Thursday. Browne said he was at the state Capitol and that he had seen no Democrats show up Much as I find quorum denial to be an underhanded tactic, how can it be legal to have the police drag legislators to the legislature and force them to vote? Call of the House isn't something unheard of, but you probably haven't heard of it since it's rarely taken to this level. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_of_the_house Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: The Dowager Mod on February 17, 2011, 03:48:00 PM The protesters in Madison are of course heroes, and I hope that they inspire similar protests in other cities. I hope it inspires the issuance of pink slips to them, myself. Different strokes for different folks. As do I. So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS? You make more than them and are not fired. They're public employees, lazy as sh!t and don't know anything. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on February 17, 2011, 03:48:25 PM Please Gov Walker, Pull a Reagan. This measure is tame compared to what I would do as governor. I would allow teachers opt out of the unions.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 17, 2011, 03:53:57 PM The protesters in Madison are of course heroes, and I hope that they inspire similar protests in other cities. I hope it inspires the issuance of pink slips to them, myself. Different strokes for different folks. As do I. So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS? You make more than them and are not fired. They're public employees, lazy as sh!t and don't know anything. Be thankful he didn't call you f****ts. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 17, 2011, 04:11:10 PM From the AP (Happy, Lunar? :) ) Police officers were searching for Democratic state lawmakers who had not shown up for a vote on the sweeping legislation. The state Senate Democrats did not show up when they were ordered to attend a midday vote on the legislation. Though Republicans hold a 19-14 majority, they need at least one Democrat present to vote. CNN reiterated radio reports that indicated Democratic state legislators had boarded a bus and left town. Mike Browne, communications director for Wisconsin Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller, told the network he had not been in contact with any Democratic legislators on Thursday. Browne said he was at the state Capitol and that he had seen no Democrats show up Ah, this is Texas and DeLay's Pubbie Sixpack redistricting plan all over again. The Dems all went to Santa Fe in that little drama. At least they had good taste in towns. And in the end, the Dems were f'ed, so it all had a happy ending. :) Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Brittain33 on February 17, 2011, 04:12:40 PM From the AP (Happy, Lunar? :) ) Police officers were searching for Democratic state lawmakers who had not shown up for a vote on the sweeping legislation. The state Senate Democrats did not show up when they were ordered to attend a midday vote on the legislation. Though Republicans hold a 19-14 majority, they need at least one Democrat present to vote. CNN reiterated radio reports that indicated Democratic state legislators had boarded a bus and left town. Mike Browne, communications director for Wisconsin Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller, told the network he had not been in contact with any Democratic legislators on Thursday. Browne said he was at the state Capitol and that he had seen no Democrats show up Ah, this is Texas and DeLay's Pubbie Sixpack redistricting plan all over again. The Dems all went to Santa Fe in that little drama. At least they had good taste in towns. And in the end, the Dems were f'ed, so it all had a happy ending. :) The Texas Dems still had one yellow dog from a Republican district who fouled it up for them... I wonder if the Wisconsin caucus has anyone similar or if it's a liberal rump that survived last year's slaughter. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 17, 2011, 04:14:10 PM Quote Dividing public workers into privileged and non-privileged is disgusting Ah, divide and conquer. I had not thought of that. Yes, that tactic should be added to the arsenal. Anything to take the public employee unions down is just doing the Lord's work. I really hope the Dems keep doing the public employees' bidding - and makes that their signature issue. That should erode them down to their hardcore base - nicely. :) Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 17, 2011, 04:17:20 PM Quote Dividing public workers into privileged and non-privileged is disgusting Ah, divide and conquer. I had not thought of that. Yes, that tactic should be added to the arsenal. Anything to take the public employee unions down is just doing the Lord's work. I really hope the Dems keep doing the public employees bidding - and makes that their signature issue. That should erode them down to their hardcore base - nicely. :) Torie, you disappoint me and I'm not joking. I expected that kind of attitude from a teenage Ron Paul fan who dreams libertarian utopias, not somebody that actually inhabits the real world. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 17, 2011, 04:18:14 PM Quote Dividing public workers into privileged and non-privileged is disgusting Ah, divide and conquer. I had not thought of that. Yes, that tactic should be added to the arsenal. Anything to take the public employee unions down is just doing the Lord's work. I really hope the Dems keep doing the public employees' bidding - and makes that their signature issue. That should erode them down to their hardcore base - nicely. :) Dude, the economy in which you dwell has already collapsed from underpaying of nearly everyone, and yet you continue to chase the same destructive policy choices. I'm sure you'll still be rich, but certainly less so for this neo-liberal nonsense. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 17, 2011, 04:23:13 PM Quote Dividing public workers into privileged and non-privileged is disgusting Ah, divide and conquer. I had not thought of that. Yes, that tactic should be added to the arsenal. Anything to take the public employee unions down is just doing the Lord's work. I really hope the Dems keep doing the public employees bidding - and makes that their signature issue. That should erode them down to their hardcore base - nicely. :) Torie, you disappoint me and I'm not joking. I expected that kind of attitude from a teenage Ron Paul fan who dreams libertarian utopias, not somebody that actually inhabits the real world. I am hardcore right wing on public employee unions. As Michael Barone wrote, they are cannibals eating us alive. They in general are grossly overpaid, and massively over-pensioned, and as I say, in some arenas, like firefighters, grossly overstaffed. Why should states and cities go broke over that, and why should folks who make less money than they do pay more taxes so that they can be paid way above market? It's Robin Hood in reverse! So, I make no apologies on this one. They need a good swiving, and they need it now. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 17, 2011, 04:29:12 PM I am hardcore right wing on public employee unions. As Michael Barone wrote, they are cannibals eating us alive. They in general are grossly overpaid, and massively over-pensioned.. So, I make no apologies on this one. They need a good swiving, and they need it now. Torie, your entire society is being eaten alive by the owners, not by these petty individuals. You're barking up the wrong tree, falling for a scapegoat intended for your social inferiors. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Iosif on February 17, 2011, 04:30:58 PM The protesters in Madison are of course heroes, and I hope that they inspire similar protests in other cities. I hope it inspires the issuance of pink slips to them, myself. Different strokes for different folks. As do I. So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS? You make more than them and are not fired. They're public employees, lazy as sh!t and don't know anything. Whereas someone who spends his workdays on an obscure internet chat forum is clearly a productive, valuable member of the workforce. 237 days, 1 hours and 5 minutes online - I'd imagine that be at least triple if you had the good fortune to laze about in a cushy public sector job. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 17, 2011, 04:37:35 PM Quote Dividing public workers into privileged and non-privileged is disgusting Ah, divide and conquer. I had not thought of that. Yes, that tactic should be added to the arsenal. Anything to take the public employee unions down is just doing the Lord's work. I really hope the Dems keep doing the public employees bidding - and makes that their signature issue. That should erode them down to their hardcore base - nicely. :) Torie, you disappoint me and I'm not joking. I expected that kind of attitude from a teenage Ron Paul fan who dreams libertarian utopias, not somebody that actually inhabits the real world. I am hardcore right wing on public employee unions. As Michael Barone wrote, they are cannibals eating us alive. They in general are grossly overpaid, and massively over-pensioned, and as I say, in some arenas, like firefighters, grossly overstaffed. Why should states and cities go broke over that, and why should folks who make less money than they do pay more taxes so that they can be paid way above market? It's Robin Hood in reverse! So, I make no apologies on this one. They need a good swiving, and they need it now. That might be true in states like California, New York and Illinois. But Wisconsin from what I know was always a good government state that faced little if any problems from its public workers and their unions. Wishing their destruction just because you hate your own state's unions is juvenile behavior and shows a level of prejudice that is quite disturbing. On the bright side, at least you admit that Walker's actions have nothing to do with balancing the budget and fiscal conservatism. He just wants to punish people who opposed his election. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 17, 2011, 04:42:12 PM Whereas someone who spends his workdays on an obscure internet chat forum is clearly a productive, valuable member of the workforce. 237 days, 1 hours and 5 minutes online - I'd imagine that be at least triple if you had the good fortune to laze about in a cushy public sector job. Does Spade even 'work'? I thought he just lived off the rich family. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 17, 2011, 04:42:37 PM Public employees in Wisconsin aren't overpaid and over-pensioned and overstaffed eh? I must congratulate Wisconsin on its good governance, then. That makes the Cheesehead state one of the the all too few jewels in the US states crown.
Yes, Pubbies are disgusting regarding the firefighters union (aka in CA the paramedic parasites about 90% of the time now - fires are just so yesterday (no, these guys never go into the hills to fight fires; those kids are way underpaid actually)). Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 17, 2011, 04:47:30 PM Public employees in Wisconsin aren't overpaid and over-pensioned and overstaffed eh? I must congratulate Wisconsin on its good governance, then. That makes the Cheesehead state one of the the all too few jewels in the US states crown. Do you really think anyone hired at your non-union dream wage (what is it now in the US? Most workers get around $12-14 an hour at best) would bother to fight a fire? If it were me I'd just sit on the side-walk below and vaugely shoot some water up at it from safety. Why bother for the owner of the building if you can just walk down the street and work at any other of the myriad of below-subsistence jobs which abound in the capitalist system? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: memphis on February 17, 2011, 05:18:56 PM Teachers are overpaid all of sudden? What a load! My mom retired in 2005 after 30 years and made about 35k/year. If you want to cherry pick obscene salaries, you probably want to start with hedge fund managers.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 17, 2011, 05:22:27 PM Teachers are overpaid all of sudden? What a load! My mom retired in 2005 after 30 years and made about 35k/year. If you want to cherry pick obscene salaries, you probably want to start with hedge fund managers. Precisely - it is capitalism which is mal-distributing, not this tiny corner of unionized employment. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 17, 2011, 05:24:43 PM Teachers are overpaid all of sudden? What a load! My mom retired in 2005 after 30 years and made about 35k/year. If you want to cherry pick obscene salaries, you probably want to start with hedge fund managers. Taxpayers don't pay those. How much is the compensation of the teachers being cut in Wisconsin, and from what to what? If it were me, my goal would be to cut, and put all the savings into merit pay. I actually do want to spend more on secondary education, particularly in the inner cities, but that requires first cleaning out a lot of the existing detritus. JMO of course. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 17, 2011, 05:27:18 PM Teachers are overpaid all of sudden? What a load! My mom retired in 2005 after 30 years and made about 35k/year. If you want to cherry pick obscene salaries, you probably want to start with hedge fund managers. Taxpayers don't pay those. I have four letters for you: T A R P. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 17, 2011, 05:28:03 PM Taxpayers don't pay those. How much is the compensation of the teachers being cut in Wisconsin, and from what to what? If it were me, my goal would be to cut, and put all the savings into merit pay. I actually do want to spend more on secondary education, particularly in the inner cities, but that requires first cleaning out a lot of the existing detritus. JMO of course. Why not clean out the detritus of your class, on which society wastes an enormously greater amount of money? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 17, 2011, 05:29:13 PM Taxpayers don't pay those. How much is the compensation of the teachers being cut in Wisconsin, and from what to what? If it were me, my goal would be to cut, and put all the savings into merit pay. I actually do want to spend more on secondary education, particularly in the inner cities, but that requires first cleaning out a lot of the existing detritus. JMO of course. Why not clean out the detritus of your class, on which society wastes an enormously greater amount of money? I am counting on you to do that for me, Opebo. I'm just to busy right now. Get to work! Oh time for my gym training session I see. I wonder how my trainer will make me sweat today (he so enjoys that). See ya later. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 17, 2011, 05:29:45 PM Teachers are overpaid all of sudden? What a load! My mom retired in 2005 after 30 years and made about 35k/year. If you want to cherry pick obscene salaries, you probably want to start with hedge fund managers. Taxpayers don't pay those. I have four letters for you: T A R P. In point of fact the real 'taxpayers' - the working class - pay all the bankers salaries, and all Torie's privilege. They pay for it all, and the government/private dichotomy is an obviously false one. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: tpfkaw on February 17, 2011, 05:30:51 PM Teachers are overpaid all of sudden? What a load! My mom retired in 2005 after 30 years and made about 35k/year. If you want to cherry pick obscene salaries, you probably want to start with hedge fund managers. Taxpayers don't pay those. I have four letters for you: T A R P. ...which had nothing to do with hedge fund managers? Of course, it's not really new that you're an incredibly intelligent person. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 17, 2011, 05:32:10 PM Teachers are overpaid all of sudden? What a load! My mom retired in 2005 after 30 years and made about 35k/year. If you want to cherry pick obscene salaries, you probably want to start with hedge fund managers. Taxpayers don't pay those. I have four letters for you: T A R P. TARP was great except for one little thing - all of the shareholders of those failed institutions were not zeroed out. The government should have ended up owning them all. Bye. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 17, 2011, 05:32:37 PM Why not clean out the detritus of your class, on which society wastes an enormously greater amount of money? I am counting on you to do that for me, Opebo. I'm just to busy right now. Get to work! Can't be done. But one can admit that these poors who slog through the day teaching and fighting fires aren't the problem. Scapegoating is so unseemly, and really beneath you. You aren't goading a mob of fascists against the Jews, you're just chat chatting on an internet forum with other outlet-less intellectuals. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Redalgo on February 17, 2011, 05:36:37 PM Some of the protest rhetoric has been inappropriate and I do not know enough about the salaries and benefits public workers in Wisconsin currently receive to have a strong opinion about whether they ought to make big concessions, but what I do have a strong opinion about is workers having the ability to collectively bargain. If Gov. Walker and has party insists on continuing down this path the Democrats will need to make a point of repairing the damage once they retake the legislature.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Smash255 on February 17, 2011, 05:38:16 PM The fact that the Police and Firefighters Unions are not included in this is problematic. Walker could save the same amount of $$$ and reduce the cutbacks to the teachers unions and others if all Unions were involved in the cutbacks and not just those who opposed Walker's candidacy.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Insula Dei on February 17, 2011, 05:40:28 PM I never got why the right deems it necessary to dmeonize public sector workers. Not only is it bad politics (most people will know at least one public sector worker and have a reasonable chance to find out how the 'overpaid and overpensioned' thing is BS), it's also actively going after the most valuable part of society, the very people we rely on every day and who are in fact ridiculously underpaid when compared to the private sector. I also find it repulsive on a personal level, as almost my entire direct family consists from teachers and othe public sector workers.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 17, 2011, 05:43:31 PM I hope that nobody will faint with surprise.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-walker-ginned-up-budget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-walker-ginned-up-budget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php) Wisconsin's new Republican governor has framed his assault on public worker's collective bargaining rights as a needed measure of fiscal austerity during tough times. The reality is radically different. Unlike true austerity measures -- service rollbacks, furloughs, and other temporary measures that cause pain but save money -- rolling back worker's bargaining rights by itself saves almost nothing on its own. But Walker's doing it anyhow, to knock down a barrier and allow him to cut state employee benefits immediately. Furthermore, this broadside comes less than a month after the state's fiscal bureau -- the Wisconsin equivalent of the Congressional Budget Office -- concluded that Wisconsin isn't even in need of austerity measures, and could conclude the fiscal year with a surplus. In fact, they say that the current budget shortfall is a direct result of tax cut policies Walker enacted in his first days in office. "Walker was not forced into a budget repair bill by circumstances beyond he control," says Jack Norman, research director at the Institute for Wisconsin Future -- a public interest think tank. "He wanted a budget repair bill and forced it by pushing through tax cuts... so he could rush through these other changes." Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 17, 2011, 05:47:07 PM Some of the protest rhetoric has been inappropriate and I do not know enough about the salaries and benefits public workers in Wisconsin currently receive to have a strong opinion about whether they ought to make big concessions, but what I do have a strong opinion about is workers having the ability to collectively bargain. If Gov. Walker and has party insists on continuing down this path the Democrats will need to make a point of repairing the damage once they retake the legislature. Some of the best states in the nation, such as virginia, have public sector collective bargaining bans or restrictions. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 17, 2011, 05:49:28 PM We still don't know what they are making, and maybe dealing with collective bargaining rights is just the foreplay before the budget cuts, which would be facilitated. Or maybe Walker just hates public employee unions in the abstract, when really the thing is to make them ineffectual - to wit, unable to raise wages above market. So is Walker a smart or a dumb? To be, or not to be?
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 17, 2011, 05:51:20 PM We still don't know what they are making, and maybe dealing with collective bargaining rights is just the foreplay before the budget cuts, which would be facilitated. Or maybe Walker just hates public employee unions in the abstract, when really the thing is to make them ineffectual - to wit, unable to raise wages above market. So is Walker a smart or a dumb? To be, or not to be? According to Franzl he is an idiot. I think I'll trust him on that. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 17, 2011, 05:56:24 PM I never got why the right deems it necessary to dmeonize public sector workers. Not only is it bad politics (most people will know at least one public sector worker and have a reasonable chance to find out how the 'overpaid and overpensioned' thing is BS), it's also actively going after the most valuable part of society, the very people we rely on every day and who are in fact ridiculously underpaid when compared to the private sector. I also find it repulsive on a personal level, as almost my entire direct family consists from teachers and othe public sector workers. What sheer nonsense. The most valuable people of society are the private sector who pay taxes into the government, not the people who take money out. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 17, 2011, 05:57:01 PM The fact that the Police and Firefighters Unions are not included in this is problematic. Walker could save the same amount of $$$ and reduce the cutbacks to the teachers unions and others if all Unions were involved in the cutbacks and not just those who opposed Walker's candidacy. It probably should. If the Democrats want to amend the bill, well, they have to come back. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Brittain33 on February 17, 2011, 06:00:08 PM Teachers are overpaid all of sudden? What a load! My mom retired in 2005 after 30 years and made about 35k/year. If you want to cherry pick obscene salaries, you probably want to start with hedge fund managers. Taxpayers don't pay those. We do allow them to pay income taxes at a 15% rate instead of standard brackets because of a shameful loophole that they've lobbied to keep open. Check it out. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Marokai Backbeat on February 17, 2011, 06:00:46 PM I hope that nobody will faint with surprise. http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-walker-ginned-up-budget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-walker-ginned-up-budget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php) Wisconsin's new Republican governor has framed his assault on public worker's collective bargaining rights as a needed measure of fiscal austerity during tough times. The reality is radically different. Unlike true austerity measures -- service rollbacks, furloughs, and other temporary measures that cause pain but save money -- rolling back worker's bargaining rights by itself saves almost nothing on its own. But Walker's doing it anyhow, to knock down a barrier and allow him to cut state employee benefits immediately. Furthermore, this broadside comes less than a month after the state's fiscal bureau -- the Wisconsin equivalent of the Congressional Budget Office -- concluded that Wisconsin isn't even in need of austerity measures, and could conclude the fiscal year with a surplus. In fact, they say that the current budget shortfall is a direct result of tax cut policies Walker enacted in his first days in office. "Walker was not forced into a budget repair bill by circumstances beyond he control," says Jack Norman, research director at the Institute for Wisconsin Future -- a public interest think tank. "He wanted a budget repair bill and forced it by pushing through tax cuts... so he could rush through these other changes." This is just sickening. This entirely issue honestly just leaves me speechless. How people actually defend this behavior is stunning. (Though maybe, I guess, I shouldn't be as surprised as I am.) Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Brittain33 on February 17, 2011, 06:01:28 PM Or maybe Walker just hates public employee unions in the abstract, They work to elect members of the opposing party, and are effective at it. (maybe not in 2010.) Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 17, 2011, 06:02:06 PM What sheer nonsense. The most valuable people of society are the private sector who pay taxes into the government, not the people who take money out. No, you've got that backwards - the rich exact their privileges from a gencide upon the poor. Even if one prefers to be an exploiter (who wouldn't?), the whole system rests upon the back of the tortured worker, so he is absolutely necessary, and hence 'valuable'. Happily 'poor people spring up out of the ground like mushrooms', as the old Thai saying goes, and so there are always more to use. But there's the rub - they are useful, something a rich person by definition cannot be. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Insula Dei on February 17, 2011, 06:05:11 PM I never got why the right deems it necessary to dmeonize public sector workers. Not only is it bad politics (most people will know at least one public sector worker and have a reasonable chance to find out how the 'overpaid and overpensioned' thing is BS), it's also actively going after the most valuable part of society, the very people we rely on every day and who are in fact ridiculously underpaid when compared to the private sector. I also find it repulsive on a personal level, as almost my entire direct family consists from teachers and othe public sector workers. What sheer nonsense. The most valuable people of society are the private sector who pay taxes into the government, not the people who take money out. Funny how a small-government conservative like yourself seems to believe the goal of society is to put money into the government, and not to, oh I don't know, enable people to develop themselves and realize their potential. Your beloved entrepreneurs wouldn't be anywhere without their education, your prvate sector wouldn't be anywhere without roads and infrastructure, and you yourself wouldn't be anywhere without administrative services to make sure you get to live the fantastic American life. I hope that nobody will faint with surprise. http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-walker-ginned-up-budget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-walker-ginned-up-budget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php) Wisconsin's new Republican governor has framed his assault on public worker's collective bargaining rights as a needed measure of fiscal austerity during tough times. The reality is radically different. Unlike true austerity measures -- service rollbacks, furloughs, and other temporary measures that cause pain but save money -- rolling back worker's bargaining rights by itself saves almost nothing on its own. But Walker's doing it anyhow, to knock down a barrier and allow him to cut state employee benefits immediately. Furthermore, this broadside comes less than a month after the state's fiscal bureau -- the Wisconsin equivalent of the Congressional Budget Office -- concluded that Wisconsin isn't even in need of austerity measures, and could conclude the fiscal year with a surplus. In fact, they say that the current budget shortfall is a direct result of tax cut policies Walker enacted in his first days in office. "Walker was not forced into a budget repair bill by circumstances beyond he control," says Jack Norman, research director at the Institute for Wisconsin Future -- a public interest think tank. "He wanted a budget repair bill and forced it by pushing through tax cuts... so he could rush through these other changes." This is just sickening. This entirely issue honestly just leaves me speechless. How people actually defend this behavior is stunning. (Though maybe, I guess, I shouldn't be as surprised as I am.) You nail it. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 17, 2011, 06:07:37 PM I hope that nobody will faint with surprise. http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-walker-ginned-up-budget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-walker-ginned-up-budget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php) Wisconsin's new Republican governor has framed his assault on public worker's collective bargaining rights as a needed measure of fiscal austerity during tough times. The reality is radically different. Unlike true austerity measures -- service rollbacks, furloughs, and other temporary measures that cause pain but save money -- rolling back worker's bargaining rights by itself saves almost nothing on its own. But Walker's doing it anyhow, to knock down a barrier and allow him to cut state employee benefits immediately. Furthermore, this broadside comes less than a month after the state's fiscal bureau -- the Wisconsin equivalent of the Congressional Budget Office -- concluded that Wisconsin isn't even in need of austerity measures, and could conclude the fiscal year with a surplus. In fact, they say that the current budget shortfall is a direct result of tax cut policies Walker enacted in his first days in office. "Walker was not forced into a budget repair bill by circumstances beyond he control," says Jack Norman, research director at the Institute for Wisconsin Future -- a public interest think tank. "He wanted a budget repair bill and forced it by pushing through tax cuts... so he could rush through these other changes." This is just sickening. This entirely issue honestly just leaves me speechless. How people actually defend this behavior is stunning. (Though maybe, I guess, I shouldn't be as surprised as I am.) Apparently some people are pinning for the good ol' days of the Gilded Age. You know, before this socialist scumbag FDR allowed the unwashed masses to obtain rights and privileges. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 17, 2011, 06:07:46 PM I never got why the right deems it necessary to dmeonize public sector workers. Not only is it bad politics (most people will know at least one public sector worker and have a reasonable chance to find out how the 'overpaid and overpensioned' thing is BS), it's also actively going after the most valuable part of society, the very people we rely on every day and who are in fact ridiculously underpaid when compared to the private sector. I also find it repulsive on a personal level, as almost my entire direct family consists from teachers and othe public sector workers. What sheer nonsense. The most valuable people of society are the private sector who pay taxes into the government, not the people who take money out. Funny how a small-government conservative like yourself seems to believe the goal of society is to put money into the government, and not to, oh I don't know, enable people to develop themselves and realize their potential. Your beloved entrepreneurs wouldn't be anywhere without their education, your prvate sector wouldn't be anywhere without roads and infrastructure, and you yourself wouldn't be anywhere without administrative services to make sure you get to live the fantastic American life. This is the standard liberal response that is, as usual, full of dung. US Real education spending has doubled in the past 20 years, and teacher rolls have increased by nearly 50%. People were realizing their economic potential in times past with much less education bloat. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 17, 2011, 06:08:46 PM The protesters in Madison are of course heroes, and I hope that they inspire similar protests in other cities. I hope it inspires the issuance of pink slips to them, myself. Different strokes for different folks. As do I. So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS? You make more than them and are not fired. Not fired for making too much money... fired for skipping out on their jobs. Did you really need to resort to a strawman argument to attempt to prove a point? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 17, 2011, 06:09:37 PM Apparently some people are pinning for the good ol' days of the Gilded Age. You know, before this socialist scumbag FDR allowed the unwashed masses to obtain rights and privileges. I really can't stop laughing at the idiocy of this statement. Franklin Delano Roosevelt "Meticulous attention," the president insisted in 1937, "should be paid to the special relations and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government....The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service." The reason? F.D.R. believed that "[a] strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to obstruct the operations of government until their demands are satisfied. Such action looking toward the paralysis of government by those who have sworn to support it is unthinkable and intolerable." Title: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Ban my account ffs! on February 17, 2011, 06:11:12 PM http://www.startribune.com/local/116399599.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUCDEaLDyE7DyaU
Excellent news! Also, the protests keep growing in Madison with an estimated 25,000 people today. I hope it keeps growing and growing. That should give the MN GOP pause as well when they try to force their extremist agenda through. Luckily we have Dayton with plenty of veto pens at the ready. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Insula Dei on February 17, 2011, 06:12:53 PM I never got why the right deems it necessary to dmeonize public sector workers. Not only is it bad politics (most people will know at least one public sector worker and have a reasonable chance to find out how the 'overpaid and overpensioned' thing is BS), it's also actively going after the most valuable part of society, the very people we rely on every day and who are in fact ridiculously underpaid when compared to the private sector. I also find it repulsive on a personal level, as almost my entire direct family consists from teachers and othe public sector workers. What sheer nonsense. The most valuable people of society are the private sector who pay taxes into the government, not the people who take money out. Funny how a small-government conservative like yourself seems to believe the goal of society is to put money into the government, and not to, oh I don't know, enable people to develop themselves and realize their potential. Your beloved entrepreneurs wouldn't be anywhere without their education, your prvate sector wouldn't be anywhere without roads and infrastructure, and you yourself wouldn't be anywhere without administrative services to make sure you get to live the fantastic American life. This is the standard liberal response that is, as usual, full of dung. US Real education spending has doubled in the past 20 years, and teacher rolls have increased by nearly 50%. People were realizing their economic potential in times past with much less education bloat. Part of me is hoping you're not really that border-line moronic. Did you just really mention how everything was better before people got educated? Really? I mean really? No, really? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_in_Great_Britain_during_the_Industrial_Revolution Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 17, 2011, 06:13:59 PM Not fired for making too much money... fired for skipping out on their jobs. Did you really need to resort to a strawman argument to attempt to prove a point? They're striking, Inks. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 17, 2011, 06:16:23 PM [quote author=krazen1211 link=topic=132187.msg2818248#msg2818248 date=12979840 Part of me is hoping you're not really that border-line moronic. Did you just really mention how everything was better before people got educated? Really? I mean really? No, really? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_in_Great_Britain_during_the_Industrial_Revolution No, I didn't say that at all. Reading comprehension is fundamental...you must have gone to Madison public schools. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: opebo on February 17, 2011, 06:16:45 PM Freedom fighters!
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 17, 2011, 06:18:10 PM Apparently some people are pinning for the good ol' days of the Gilded Age. You know, before this socialist scumbag FDR allowed the unwashed masses to obtain rights and privileges. I really can't stop laughing at the idiocy of this statement. You mean because inequality is already worse than in the Gilded Age? Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Insula Dei on February 17, 2011, 06:18:20 PM Freedom fighters! Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: minionofmidas on February 17, 2011, 06:18:33 PM I would certainly flee Wisconsin.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: cinyc on February 17, 2011, 06:19:18 PM What sheer nonsense. The most valuable people of society are the private sector who pay taxes into the government, not the people who take money out. No, you've got that backwards - the rich exact their privileges from a gencide upon the poor. Even if one prefers to be an exploiter (who wouldn't?), the whole system rests upon the back of the tortured worker, so he is absolutely necessary, and hence 'valuable'. Happily 'poor people spring up out of the ground like mushrooms', as the old Thai saying goes, and so there are always more to use. But there's the rub - they are useful, something a rich person by definition cannot be. Your over-the-top socialist propaganda makes no sense. There is no genocide on the poor. That is, unless in socialist doublespeak, genocide means ever-increasing life expectancy and living standards. And how can you see no difference between a government that takes money from its citizens at gunpoint and a the private sector, which only takes money from those willing to spend it? The day of reckoning has arrived. Those who pay the bloated salaries and pensions of public sector employees are sick and tired of it. That's what Wisconsin voters said in 2010. The governor is doing the work of the people who voted for him. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Ban my account ffs! on February 17, 2011, 06:20:25 PM [quote author=krazen1211 link=topic=132187.msg2818248#msg2818248 date=12979840 Part of me is hoping you're not really that border-line moronic. Did you just really mention how everything was better before people got educated? Really? I mean really? No, really? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_in_Great_Britain_during_the_Industrial_Revolution No, I didn't say that at all. Reading comprehension is fundamental...you must have gone to Madison public schools. Actually, he's from Belgium, speaks Dutch as his mother tongue, and is discussing this issue in English, which is not his first language. And I dare say his comprehension of English is every bit as good as yours. How many languages do you speak, Krazen? Or is learning another language soshullist? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Ban my account ffs! on February 17, 2011, 06:22:33 PM What sheer nonsense. The most valuable people of society are the private sector who pay taxes into the government, not the people who take money out. No, you've got that backwards - the rich exact their privileges from a gencide upon the poor. Even if one prefers to be an exploiter (who wouldn't?), the whole system rests upon the back of the tortured worker, so he is absolutely necessary, and hence 'valuable'. Happily 'poor people spring up out of the ground like mushrooms', as the old Thai saying goes, and so there are always more to use. But there's the rub - they are useful, something a rich person by definition cannot be. Your over-the-top socialist propaganda makes no sense. There is no genocide on the poor. That is, unless in socialist doublespeak, genocide means ever-increasing life expectancy and living standards. And how can you see no difference between a government that takes money from its citizens at gunpoint and a the private sector, which only takes money from those willing to spend it? The day of reckoning has arrived. Those who pay the bloated salaries and pensions of public sector employees are sick and tired of it. That's what Wisconsin voters said in 2010. The governor is doing the work of the people who voted for him. That argument is so tired and bloated. You can easily go without paying taxes. Just don't work or buy anything or own property! The same could be said about the private sector.... where purchasing food from a grocery store is "voluntary"... but if you didn't do it.. like not working, owning property, or buying anything at all... would make life much harder. So just because you get to choose which grocery store you go to... doesn't make it any more voluntary. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 17, 2011, 06:24:07 PM Your over-the-top socialist propaganda makes no sense. There is no genocide on the poor. That is, unless in socialist doublespeak, genocide means ever-increasing life expectancy and living standards. Their lives are used up to pay for the privileges of their owners, cinyc. They're only killed immediately if they get out of line. And how can you see no difference between a government that takes money from its citizens at gunpoint and a the private sector, which only takes money from those willing to spend it? Private property is enforced at gunpoint, kinyc, with all the prisons to back it up. The day of reckoning has arrived. Those who pay the bloated salaries and pensions of public sector employees are sick and tired of it. That's what Wisconsin voters said in 2010. The governor is doing the work of the people who voted for him. Of course, but the point is that those people are know-nothing dupes. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 17, 2011, 06:25:50 PM [quote author=krazen1211 link=topic=132187.msg2818248#msg2818248 date=12979840 Part of me is hoping you're not really that border-line moronic. Did you just really mention how everything was better before people got educated? Really? I mean really? No, really? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_in_Great_Britain_during_the_Industrial_Revolution No, I didn't say that at all. Reading comprehension is fundamental...you must have gone to Madison public schools. Actually, he's from Belgium, speaks Dutch as his mother tongue, and is discussing this issue in English, which is not his first language. And I dare say his comprehension of English is every bit as good as yours. How many languages do you speak, Krazen? Or is learning another language soshullist? He must have learned that language when he lived in the state of virgniah. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 17, 2011, 06:27:02 PM Apparently some people are pinning for the good ol' days of the Gilded Age. You know, before this socialist scumbag FDR allowed the unwashed masses to obtain rights and privileges. I really can't stop laughing at the idiocy of this statement. You mean because inequality is already worse than in the Gilded Age? No, genius. Rather, because FDR strongly opposed the idea of public sector unions, especially public sector union strikes like we are seeing in Madison today. http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=15445 Organization on their part to present their views on such matters is both natural and logical, but meticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government. All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters. Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of Government employees. Upon employees in the Federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people, whose interests and welfare require orderliness and continuity in the conduct of Government activities. This obligation is paramount. Since their own services have to do with the functioning of the Government, a strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied. Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government by those who have sworn to support it, is unthinkable and intolerable. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 17, 2011, 06:29:36 PM Your over-the-top socialist propaganda makes no sense. There is no genocide on the poor. That is, unless in socialist doublespeak, genocide means ever-increasing life expectancy and living standards. Anyway its only because of unions and government redistribution that there have been, in the past, some increases in life expectancy and living standards. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 17, 2011, 06:29:48 PM [quote author=krazen1211 link=topic=132187.msg2818248#msg2818248 date=12979840 Part of me is hoping you're not really that border-line moronic. Did you just really mention how everything was better before people got educated? Really? I mean really? No, really? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_in_Great_Britain_during_the_Industrial_Revolution No, I didn't say that at all. Reading comprehension is fundamental...you must have gone to Madison public schools. Actually, he's from Belgium, speaks Dutch as his mother tongue, and is discussing this issue in English, which is not his first language. And I dare say his comprehension of English is every bit as good as yours. How many languages do you speak, Krazen? Or is learning another language soshullist? If that was true, he wouldn't have somehow confused my correct point of the number of excess teachers that this nation has (about 1.5 million worth) and excess spending (about $200 billion worth) with the idea of eliminating public education entirely. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Insula Dei on February 17, 2011, 06:31:48 PM Krazen, your literal words:
Quote People were realizing their economic potential in times past with much less education bloat. I think that even in the US education now is better than it was in the Fifties. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: DrScholl on February 17, 2011, 06:32:56 PM It is so ridiculous that Republicans always have to create drama when the come into power. The message is clear that they need to back off, but we all know they never take a hint.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: cinyc on February 17, 2011, 06:34:48 PM Your over-the-top socialist propaganda makes no sense. There is no genocide on the poor. That is, unless in socialist doublespeak, genocide means ever-increasing life expectancy and living standards. Their lives are used up to pay for the privileges of their owners, cinyc. They're only killed immediately if they get out of line. And how can you see no difference between a government that takes money from its citizens at gunpoint and a the private sector, which only takes money from those willing to spend it? Private property is enforced at gunpoint, kinyc, with all the prisons to back it up. The day of reckoning has arrived. Those who pay the bloated salaries and pensions of public sector employees are sick and tired of it. That's what Wisconsin voters said in 2010. The governor is doing the work of the people who voted for him. Of course, but the point is that those people are know-nothing dupes. Yes, the people who don't believe your glorious socialist propaganda are know-nothing dupes. Glorious socialists like you know-it-all! Which is why every glorious socialist paradise implodes on itself like the Soviet Union or becomes a craphole like Cuba. Glorious socialists and socialist governments do not know best. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Franzl on February 17, 2011, 06:39:00 PM It appears they've flown to Rockford, Illinois.
Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: ag on February 17, 2011, 06:39:49 PM This one is going to be fun. The state capital in this case is, probably, even more liberal than normal (86% Obama in the city, 30% above the statewide average) . So, the governing Republican majority must be viewed almost as an occupation force. It's always uncomfortable for a government to be based in such a hostile capital. They should just move :))
Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: DrScholl on February 17, 2011, 06:42:01 PM Good for them.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 17, 2011, 06:42:03 PM Krazen, your literal words: Quote People were realizing their economic potential in times past with much less education bloat. I think that even in the US education now is better than it was in the Fifties. Based on what, exactly? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Marokai Backbeat on February 17, 2011, 06:44:47 PM What sheer nonsense. The most valuable people of society are the private sector who pay taxes into the government, not the people who take money out. No, you've got that backwards - the rich exact their privileges from a gencide upon the poor. Even if one prefers to be an exploiter (who wouldn't?), the whole system rests upon the back of the tortured worker, so he is absolutely necessary, and hence 'valuable'. Happily 'poor people spring up out of the ground like mushrooms', as the old Thai saying goes, and so there are always more to use. But there's the rub - they are useful, something a rich person by definition cannot be. Your over-the-top socialist propaganda makes no sense. There is no genocide on the poor. That is, unless in socialist doublespeak, genocide means ever-increasing life expectancy and living standards. And how can you see no difference between a government that takes money from its citizens at gunpoint and a the private sector, which only takes money from those willing to spend it? The day of reckoning has arrived. Those who pay the bloated salaries and pensions of public sector employees are sick and tired of it. That's what Wisconsin voters said in 2010. The governor is doing the work of the people who voted for him. Oh give it a break. As Px said, there's no budget issue in Wisconsin except of the Governor's own creation by deliberately causing a budget shortfall. I seriously doubt the voters went to the voting booth with public employee salaries on their minds. Give the dishonesty a rest. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 17, 2011, 06:48:03 PM What sheer nonsense. The most valuable people of society are the private sector who pay taxes into the government, not the people who take money out. No, you've got that backwards - the rich exact their privileges from a gencide upon the poor. Even if one prefers to be an exploiter (who wouldn't?), the whole system rests upon the back of the tortured worker, so he is absolutely necessary, and hence 'valuable'. Happily 'poor people spring up out of the ground like mushrooms', as the old Thai saying goes, and so there are always more to use. But there's the rub - they are useful, something a rich person by definition cannot be. Your over-the-top socialist propaganda makes no sense. There is no genocide on the poor. That is, unless in socialist doublespeak, genocide means ever-increasing life expectancy and living standards. And how can you see no difference between a government that takes money from its citizens at gunpoint and a the private sector, which only takes money from those willing to spend it? The day of reckoning has arrived. Those who pay the bloated salaries and pensions of public sector employees are sick and tired of it. That's what Wisconsin voters said in 2010. The governor is doing the work of the people who voted for him. Oh give it a break. As Px said, there's no budget issue in Wisconsin except of the Governor's own creation by deliberately causing a budget shortfall. I seriously doubt the voters went to the voting booth with public employee salaries on their minds. Give the dishonesty a rest. Dude, it's not the first time Republicans choose to ignore reality when it doesn't fit their ideology. I bet that if you ask cinyc he will tell you in detail how social security is bringing the budget to its knees and tax cuts pay for themselves. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: krazen1211 on February 17, 2011, 06:51:06 PM you can probably merge this with the other thread.
Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 17, 2011, 06:53:58 PM It appears they've flown to Rockford, Illinois. Not any more. http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wis-dem-legislator-we-are-no-longer-at-hotel-in-rockford-and-focus-should-be-on-the-issues.php (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wis-dem-legislator-we-are-no-longer-at-hotel-in-rockford-and-focus-should-be-on-the-issues.php) Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Ban my account ffs! on February 17, 2011, 07:01:58 PM you can probably merge this with the other thread. Ummm... and what, exactly, does this have to do with "desperate teachers' unions force Madison schools to cancel classes"? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: memphis on February 17, 2011, 07:04:42 PM What sheer nonsense. The most valuable people of society are the private sector who pay taxes into the government, not the people who take money out. No, you've got that backwards - the rich exact their privileges from a gencide upon the poor. Even if one prefers to be an exploiter (who wouldn't?), the whole system rests upon the back of the tortured worker, so he is absolutely necessary, and hence 'valuable'. Happily 'poor people spring up out of the ground like mushrooms', as the old Thai saying goes, and so there are always more to use. But there's the rub - they are useful, something a rich person by definition cannot be. Your over-the-top socialist propaganda makes no sense. There is no genocide on the poor. That is, unless in socialist doublespeak, genocide means ever-increasing life expectancy and living standards. And how can you see no difference between a government that takes money from its citizens at gunpoint and a the private sector, which only takes money from those willing to spend it? The day of reckoning has arrived. Those who pay the bloated salaries and pensions of public sector employees are sick and tired of it. That's what Wisconsin voters said in 2010. The governor is doing the work of the people who voted for him. Oh give it a break. As Px said, there's no budget issue in Wisconsin except of the Governor's own creation by deliberately causing a budget shortfall. I seriously doubt the voters went to the voting booth with public employee salaries on their minds. Give the dishonesty a rest. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Lief 🗽 on February 17, 2011, 07:05:49 PM American Heroes, all fourteen of them. It's good to know that some politicians in this country still care about the increasingly impoverished American worker.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: cinyc on February 17, 2011, 07:07:39 PM Oh give it a break. As Px said, there's no budget issue in Wisconsin except of the Governor's own creation by deliberately causing a budget shortfall. I seriously doubt the voters went to the voting booth with public employee salaries on their minds. Give the dishonesty a rest. Because a self-interested left-wing interest group's analysis on an ultra left-wing website states there is no Wisconsin budget shortfall, there must not be a budget shortfall in Wisconsin except because of that no-good, evil Republican governor. Let's ignore reality and believe budget projections from self-interested interest groups. Who cares that almost every state has a budget deficit - Wisconsin must be special because the special interest groups decreed it so. And who cares that more impartial sources (http://politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2010/nov/29/jim-doyle/gov-jim-doyle-says-wisconsins-projected-budget-sho/) have said yes, Wisconsin has a huge deficit. And who cares if even the outgoing DEMOCRATIC governor said Wisconsin had a huge deficit? Talking Points Memo is ALWAYS right because it's so "progressive"! And "progressives" can't be wrong! Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: cinyc on February 17, 2011, 07:13:16 PM That argument is so tired and bloated. You can easily go without paying taxes. Just don't work or buy anything or own property! The same could be said about the private sector.... where purchasing food from a grocery store is "voluntary"... but if you didn't do it.. like not working, owning property, or buying anything at all... would make life much harder. So just because you get to choose which grocery store you go to... doesn't make it any more voluntary. Yeah, it's so easy to dodge paying any taxes - I just have to not earn, buy or own anything. I guess I could just die - but wait... there's a tax on that too. I get to choose what groceries I want to buy at the store I want at the time I want. Or I can choose to buy seeds and grow my own food. I can choose which private actors to deal with. I can't choose which federal taxes to pay, short of leaving the country or going to jail for not paying them. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: memphis on February 17, 2011, 07:14:13 PM That argument is so tired and bloated. You can easily go without paying taxes. Just don't work or buy anything or own property! The same could be said about the private sector.... where purchasing food from a grocery store is "voluntary"... but if you didn't do it.. like not working, owning property, or buying anything at all... would make life much harder. So just because you get to choose which grocery store you go to... doesn't make it any more voluntary. Yeah, it's so easy to dodge paying any taxes - I just have to not earn, buy or own anything. I guess I could just die - but wait... there's a tax on that too. I get to choose what groceries I want to buy at the store I want at the time I want. Or I can choose to buy seeds and grow my own food. I can choose which private actors to deal with. I can't choose which federal taxes to pay, short of leaving the country or going to jail for not paying them. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Sam Spade on February 17, 2011, 07:21:25 PM The protesters in Madison are of course heroes, and I hope that they inspire similar protests in other cities. I hope it inspires the issuance of pink slips to them, myself. Different strokes for different folks. As do I. So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS? You make more than them and are not fired. They're public employees, lazy as sh!t and don't know anything. Be thankful he didn't call you f****ts. Hard to call a woman that term. Especially Texasgurl, who I've known on the forum for many years. You, on the other hand... I have a serious question for Texasgurl - what do you of the employees who lied and "called in sick" when they really went out to protest? You see, in the real world, i.e. the private sector world, that's grounds for termination on its face. Moreover, what does that tell us about the teachers - doesn't it say that they care more about themselves than the learning of their students? As for the original comment, I'm sure you know I enjoy making blanket generalizations for amusement - not every public employee is lazy and knows nothing, maybe that's just NYC. :P And as for the larger public employee union issue, Torie is, as usual, 100% right on this sort of thing and I see no reason to extrapolate on his excellent thoughts. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on February 17, 2011, 07:25:00 PM Horrible People for blocking a good piece of legislation. The GOP agenda in these state is not extreme considering that they were elected to right the wrong of fiscal insanity that Wisconsion has had with the radical progressive agenda. So to say it, I'm for the employee but in times like this sacrifices must be made. Allow teachers to opt out of being in unions. The right has made her sacrifices for a long time. Now the left must make many of their own.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Insula Dei on February 17, 2011, 07:31:47 PM Quote I have a serious question for Texasgurl - what do you of the employees who lied and "called in sick" when they really went out to protest? You see, in the real world, i.e. the private sector world, that's grounds for termination on its face. Moreover, what does that tell us about the teachers - doesn't it say that they care more about themselves than the learning of their students? A couple of things: -How is the private sector any more 'real' than the public sector? Do you have to pay your managers millions in order to be real? I'd say that the Banking sector for example is Cloud Cuckoo Land more than anything. -Teachers are the one segment of the population where a sense of citizenship should above all be present. Union activity, far from an evil conspiracy against millionaire bankers, is a citizen's way of defending his own position in society. -This is about the future of education. Teachers might also be interested in, you know, getting a normal wage and a decent pension, but more importantly they're currently fighting to keep education in Wisconsin at a semi-decent level. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 17, 2011, 07:33:38 PM Worth pointing out that the same crap is playing out at the federal level. Except the deficit spending is producing so much interest that the entire nation's future is compromised. The GOP has literally destroyed the nation for a few decades of lower taxes on richers. Unbelieveable! Kind of a curious theory, given how interest costs on debt was at historical lows in 2009 and only swells about 3 years from now... Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: krazen1211 on February 17, 2011, 07:34:04 PM you can probably merge this with the other thread. Ummm... and what, exactly, does this have to do with "desperate teachers' unions force Madison schools to cancel classes"? The discussion was picked up there. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 17, 2011, 07:55:28 PM Not fired for making too much money... fired for skipping out on their jobs. Did you really need to resort to a strawman argument to attempt to prove a point? They're striking, Inks. Yes, and causing schools to have to shut down in the process. So, they would be fired for not going to work, not because they make too much money. Glad you realized the true reason for why they should be fired. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Person Man on February 17, 2011, 08:05:56 PM All soldiers in the war against Corporatism.
Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Franzl on February 17, 2011, 08:07:51 PM All soldiers in the war against Corporatism. ugh....what? Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Person Man on February 17, 2011, 08:15:53 PM Well, unions are an important counter balance to the strength of corporations as an American institution, even if they are public unions whose employees are not corporations. Corporatism is when the most powerful institution in society are the Corporations. Another word for it is "Socialism with Chinese Characteristics" (Where the state-run economy is operated vicariously through publically financed private corporations).
Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Franzl on February 17, 2011, 08:16:55 PM But you said it yourself....what do corporations have to do with public employees?
Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Person Man on February 17, 2011, 08:17:50 PM Well, its still an issue of union strength against employers....its kind of an aggregate issue.
Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: RI on February 17, 2011, 08:20:02 PM Corporatism is when the most powerful institution in society are the Corporations. No, it's not. You're thinking of corporatocracy. Corporatism is something different entirely. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism) Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Person Man on February 17, 2011, 08:34:24 PM At either rate, we can say Plutocracy then...though I have seen it refered to in both ways. ..
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Insula Dei on February 17, 2011, 08:49:32 PM Fwiw, I'm hearing that if Walker gets things his way, low-ranking college professors who have a family with two children and who are the only source of income for their family'd qualify for Food Stamps. I don't know about you guys, but I think it a disgrace that those ridiculously overpaid teachers now are also going to leech of Welfare.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: The Dowager Mod on February 17, 2011, 09:01:44 PM The state troopers told to go after the dems refused and the capital police ignored the governors order to clear out the protesters, union solidarity is strong here.
As for teachers getting the "Blue Flu" i would prefer they wait until the strike is officially called. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: RogueBeaver on February 17, 2011, 09:32:31 PM Walker is not going to back down, he's done this in Milwaukee and will do it again. According to the WI Constitution all that needs to be done is separate the collective bargaining provision into its own bill, which can be passed with a simple majority. Once that's done the AWOL Dems will have to come back on the budget and everything else. Did they not remember what happened to the Texas Dems who pulled the same stunt 8 years ago? Got the boot in the next election.
"The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service." - Franklin Roosevelt Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Brittain33 on February 17, 2011, 09:51:14 PM Did they not remember what happened to the Texas Dems who pulled the same stunt 8 years ago? Got the boot in the next election. Which ones? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 17, 2011, 10:04:31 PM The state troopers told to go after the dems refused and the capital police ignored the governors order to clear out the protesters, union solidarity is strong here. As for teachers getting the "Blue Flu" i would prefer they wait until the strike is officially called. Refusing to enforce the law eh, assuming that it is the law? If so, the next step is the national guard. The state troopers work for the state right? I wonder how they should be dealt with, if they are refusing to follow orders. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 17, 2011, 10:08:57 PM Teachers are overpaid all of sudden? What a load! My mom retired in 2005 after 30 years and made about 35k/year. If you want to cherry pick obscene salaries, you probably want to start with hedge fund managers. Taxpayers don't pay those. We do allow them to pay income taxes at a 15% rate instead of standard brackets because of a shameful loophole that they've lobbied to keep open. Check it out. I bet you, just bet you, that the deficit commission, that outfit Obama is keeping his distance from that was his creation, and on which all of his appointees signed off the plan that got a healthy majority of both parties on the commission, zeroed that one out. Wanna bet? Let's get on with it! PS: I also suspect that it is a bit more complex than that they get a 15% rate, and I get (well I used to get) a 37.56% rate. It probably is transactionally driven, and/or some theory behind it that the taxes are paid elsewhere. Or maybe - as you suggest - it is just a swiving scandal. In any event, flush it. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Zarn on February 17, 2011, 10:29:14 PM Lots of fake outrage on this thread...
Any teacher who deems his or her salary to be more important than the students he or she teaches should lose his or her job. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on February 17, 2011, 10:39:43 PM Good Midwest progressives.
Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on February 17, 2011, 10:44:29 PM Why is it even necessary to run to another state or wherever? Is there some bizarre law in the U.S that means that legislators can be forced to attend? I remember being confused over the Texas thing for the same reason.
Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: DrScholl on February 17, 2011, 10:47:31 PM Walker is not going to back down, he's done this in Milwaukee and will do it again. According to the WI Constitution all that needs to be done is separate the collective bargaining provision into its own bill, which can be passed with a simple majority. Once that's done the AWOL Dems will have to come back on the budget and everything else. Did they not remember what happened to the Texas Dems who pulled the same stunt 8 years ago? Got the boot in the next election. "The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service." - Franklin Roosevelt The issue is the quorum and nothing can be passed with out a proper quorum. Until they come back, Walker can't do a thing. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Lunar on February 17, 2011, 10:48:28 PM Why is it even necessary to run to another state or wherever? Is there some bizarre law in the U.S that means that legislators can be forced to attend? I remember being confused over the Texas thing for the same reason. Yes. http://www.slate.com/id/2285532/ "The chief clerk shall immediately call the roll of the members, and note the absentees, whose names shall be read, and entered upon the journal in such manner as to show who are absent with leave and who are absent without leave. The chief clerk shall furnish the sergeant at arms with a list of those who are absent without leave, and the sergeant at arms shall forthwith proceed to find and bring in such absentees." Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on February 17, 2011, 10:49:48 PM Really with the way this is played, this is just going to really bite Walker and the Republicans in the ass. As noted most people know at least one public sector and know how ridiculous the "overpaid" nonsense is, especially with teachers. I have a tough time seeing Wisconsin being to the right of North Dakota on this where the vast majority of people would find that claim rather comical.
Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on February 17, 2011, 10:51:00 PM Why is it even necessary to run to another state or wherever? Is there some bizarre law in the U.S that means that legislators can be forced to attend? I remember being confused over the Texas thing for the same reason. Yes. http://www.slate.com/id/2285532/ "The chief clerk shall immediately call the roll of the members, and note the absentees, whose names shall be read, and entered upon the journal in such manner as to show who are absent with leave and who are absent without leave. The chief clerk shall furnish the sergeant at arms with a list of those who are absent without leave, and the sergeant at arms shall forthwith proceed to find and bring in such absentees." That is absolutely and utterly insane. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on February 17, 2011, 10:52:31 PM Would that be possible without the cooperation of the local government of Madison though? Because they obviously wouldn't.
Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: DrScholl on February 17, 2011, 11:00:34 PM I believe the state patrol could bring them in, which is why they left the jurisdiction.
Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on February 17, 2011, 11:03:19 PM And there you have another reason why Walker isn't messing with police unions.
Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Lunar on February 17, 2011, 11:04:51 PM Why is it even necessary to run to another state or wherever? Is there some bizarre law in the U.S that means that legislators can be forced to attend? I remember being confused over the Texas thing for the same reason. Yes. http://www.slate.com/id/2285532/ "The chief clerk shall immediately call the roll of the members, and note the absentees, whose names shall be read, and entered upon the journal in such manner as to show who are absent with leave and who are absent without leave. The chief clerk shall furnish the sergeant at arms with a list of those who are absent without leave, and the sergeant at arms shall forthwith proceed to find and bring in such absentees." That is absolutely and utterly insane. I'm not sure how many states have these laws, but they do seem to be rather impractical, don't they? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 17, 2011, 11:18:13 PM Refusing to enforce the law eh, assuming that it is the law? If so, the next step is the national guard. The state troopers work for the state right? I wonder how they should be dealt with, if they are refusing to follow orders. Article IV, §7 Organization of legislature; quorum; compulsory attendance. Section 7. Each house shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members; and a majority of each shall constitute a quorum to do business, but a smaller number may adjourn from day to day, and may compel the attendance of absent members in such manner and under such penalties as each house may provide. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 17, 2011, 11:20:19 PM Really with the way this is played, this is just going to really bite Walker and the Republicans in the ass. As noted most people know at least one public sector and know how ridiculous the "overpaid" nonsense is, especially with teachers. I have a tough time seeing Wisconsin being to the right of North Dakota on this where the vast majority of people would find that claim rather comical. No, not really. In what is a combination of sad, amusing, and ironic, it looks like the liberals have destroyed public education in Madison, Milwaukee, and some other towns. Madison Schools at least appear to be perpetually closed now since the teachers won't work anymore. I guess the next generation of leftists isn't getting an education anymore, and all those liberals are paying property taxes for, well, nothing. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: krazen1211 on February 17, 2011, 11:21:01 PM Why is it even necessary to run to another state or wherever? Is there some bizarre law in the U.S that means that legislators can be forced to attend? I remember being confused over the Texas thing for the same reason. The US and many state constitutions have such a provision. Article IV, §7 Organization of legislature; quorum; compulsory attendance. Section 7. Each house shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members; and a majority of each shall constitute a quorum to do business, but a smaller number may adjourn from day to day, and may compel the attendance of absent members in such manner and under such penalties as each house may provide. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: krazen1211 on February 17, 2011, 11:25:07 PM The issue is the quorum and nothing can be passed with out a proper quorum. Until they come back, Walker can't do a thing. Wrong; they can pass anything non budget related with a 50% quorum. Time to gerrymander. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: DrScholl on February 17, 2011, 11:32:30 PM Wrong; they can pass anything non budget related with a 50% quorum. Time to gerrymander. I didn't mention other measures, just the one being discussed here. The Republicans were already going to gerrymander (perhaps dummymander), so the opportunity is any different right now. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: cinyc on February 17, 2011, 11:35:55 PM Really with the way this is played, this is just going to really bite Walker and the Republicans in the ass. As noted most people know at least one public sector and know how ridiculous the "overpaid" nonsense is, especially with teachers. I have a tough time seeing Wisconsin being to the right of North Dakota on this where the vast majority of people would find that claim rather comical. Republicans should only hope that Democrats misunderstand the optics like you and continue their little political games, like abdicating from their responsibility to govern by leaving the state. Your average private sector employee sees public employees acting like thugs, protesting the horror of having to do things like *gasp* pay for part of their health insurance, like practically everyone in the private sector. They see some public employees retiring with bloated, unsustainable pensions that those in the private sector no longer get. But yet, they are paying for public employees to live higher off the hog than they are. And when they see their kids' schools closed by "sick" teachers who are miraculously well enough to drive to Madison and protest, the first thing they think of is how those teachers are making them have to scramble to find someone to watch their kids at the last minute, not how underpaid those teachers supposedly are. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 17, 2011, 11:43:44 PM The state troopers told to go after the dems refused and the capital police ignored the governors order to clear out the protesters, union solidarity is strong here. As for teachers getting the "Blue Flu" i would prefer they wait until the strike is officially called. You don't think this sets a bad precedent? If they're allowed to get away with this now, you don't think it'll turn into the Democrats (or Republicans in the future, perhaps) skipping town to keep the roll call under quorum for every "important" fight that comes up? Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: krazen1211 on February 17, 2011, 11:45:28 PM I didn't mention other measures, just the one being discussed here. The Republicans were already going to gerrymander (perhaps dummymander), so the opportunity is any different right now. Oh, that's just the start. It sounds like they can split the budgetary impact away and simply outlaw teacher tenure for a start. It makes it much easier to do things when you no longer have to deal with any opposition. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 18, 2011, 12:03:26 AM Why is it even necessary to run to another state or wherever? Is there some bizarre law in the U.S that means that legislators can be forced to attend? I remember being confused over the Texas thing for the same reason. Yes. http://www.slate.com/id/2285532/ "The chief clerk shall immediately call the roll of the members, and note the absentees, whose names shall be read, and entered upon the journal in such manner as to show who are absent with leave and who are absent without leave. The chief clerk shall furnish the sergeant at arms with a list of those who are absent without leave, and the sergeant at arms shall forthwith proceed to find and bring in such absentees." That is absolutely and utterly insane. I'm not sure how many states have these laws, but they do seem to be rather impractical, don't they? It keeps things like this from happening though... makes sense to me. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 18, 2011, 12:07:08 AM This sets a TERRIBLE precedent... if you can't win a legislative fight, just abandon your job. Sure, it's just once now, but soon it'll turn into only for "important" bills, and then you'll see it happening for pretty much everything.
Look at what happened with the filibuster... it's become abused to the point that it's now a procedural motion that nearly every bill has to overcome. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: ilikeverin on February 18, 2011, 12:10:36 AM This sets a TERRIBLE precedent... if you can't win a legislative fight, just abandon your job. Sure, it's just once now, but soon it'll turn into only for "important" bills, and then you'll see it happening for pretty much everything. Look at what happened with the filibuster... it's become abused to the point that it's now a procedural motion that nearly every bill has to overcome. I think they're aware it looks like they're being cowards; your reaction is undoubtedly the public's reaction. It just means they think it's important enough that they should do this. If your reaction isn't the public's, well, then maybe they're doing something right ;) Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: DrScholl on February 18, 2011, 12:16:01 AM This sets a TERRIBLE precedent... if you can't win a legislative fight, just abandon your job. Sure, it's just once now, but soon it'll turn into only for "important" bills, and then you'll see it happening for pretty much everything. Look at what happened with the filibuster... it's become abused to the point that it's now a procedural motion that nearly every bill has to overcome. If the bill wasn't a real problem, they would not have gone to such lengths. I think that some procedural measures like this are necessary, to guard against the majority overstepping with legislation. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 18, 2011, 12:19:19 AM This sets a TERRIBLE precedent... if you can't win a legislative fight, just abandon your job. Sure, it's just once now, but soon it'll turn into only for "important" bills, and then you'll see it happening for pretty much everything. Look at what happened with the filibuster... it's become abused to the point that it's now a procedural motion that nearly every bill has to overcome. If the bill wasn't a real problem, they would not have gone to such lengths. I think that some procedural measures like this are necessary, to guard against the majority overstepping with legislation. This isn't procedural... this is not doing your job. Procedure is a filibuster or other actions in the chambers. Leaving the state is leaving your job. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: DrScholl on February 18, 2011, 12:25:48 AM This isn't procedural... this is not doing your job. Procedure is a filibuster or other actions in the chambers. Leaving the state is leaving your job. Well, the majority can't do anything without a quorum, so it does relate to procedure. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: The Dowager Mod on February 18, 2011, 12:27:17 AM The state troopers told to go after the dems refused and the capital police ignored the governors order to clear out the protesters, union solidarity is strong here. As for teachers getting the "Blue Flu" i would prefer they wait until the strike is officially called. Refusing to enforce the law eh, assuming that it is the law? If so, the next step is the national guard. The state troopers work for the state right? I wonder how they should be dealt with, they are refusing to follow orders. And if he does end up paying us like they pay teachers in Mississipi or some other anti worker state Wisconsin will get the same low quality education they get, not everyone can afford to send their kids to a fancy private school like Walker and his rich buddies who will end up getting the money they take from the teachers in another tax break. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 18, 2011, 12:27:36 AM This isn't procedural... this is not doing your job. Procedure is a filibuster or other actions in the chambers. Leaving the state is leaving your job. Well, the majority can't do anything without a quorum, so it does relate to procedure. But I'm guessing that you'd oppose the Sergeant at Arms bringing these people back into the chamber... as is legal procedure? Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: DrScholl on February 18, 2011, 12:32:33 AM But I'm guessing that you'd oppose the Sergeant at Arms bringing these people back into the chamber... as is legal procedure? The Sergeant at Arms has to do their job regardless, so had they remained in the jurisdiction and being returned to the capitol, there would be no legit reason to oppose that. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Smash255 on February 18, 2011, 12:35:41 AM Horrible People for blocking a good piece of legislation. The GOP agenda in these state is not extreme considering that they were elected to right the wrong of fiscal insanity that Wisconsion has had with the radical progressive agenda. So to say it, I'm for the employee but in times like this sacrifices must be made. Allow teachers to opt out of being in unions. The right has made her sacrifices for a long time. Now the left must make many of their own. As PX75's article points out more than half the deficit is due to programs Walker has put in place after he got elected. Not to mention if getting costs down was such a concern don't you think it would be a good idea to hold the police and Firefighters Unions to the same rules you are holding the teachers and other Unions to? Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Lunar on February 18, 2011, 12:37:06 AM This sets a TERRIBLE precedent... if you can't win a legislative fight, just abandon your job. Sure, it's just once now, but soon it'll turn into only for "important" bills, and then you'll see it happening for pretty much everything. Look at what happened with the filibuster... it's become abused to the point that it's now a procedural motion that nearly every bill has to overcome. If the bill wasn't a real problem, they would not have gone to such lengths. I think that some procedural measures like this are necessary, to guard against the majority overstepping with legislation. This isn't procedural... this is not doing your job. Procedure is a filibuster or other actions in the chambers. Leaving the state is leaving your job. It's like going on strike, regardless of which side of the Wisconsin-Illinois border they are on -- but striking is not the same abandonment of responsibility that the phrase "leaving your job" would imply Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: All Along The Watchtower on February 18, 2011, 12:56:14 AM Walker's programs have nothing to do with "shared sacrifice." They have everything to do with punishing the working class.
Good on those lawmakers who are stopping this crap. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: All Along The Watchtower on February 18, 2011, 12:58:18 AM Well, it's good to know which side you are on.
This thread has shed light on that. All that matters in politics, is if you're on the side of the haves, or the have nots. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: cinyc on February 18, 2011, 01:13:24 AM Well, it's good to know which side you are on. This thread has shed light on that. All that matters in politics, is if you're on the side of the haves, or the have nots. That's awfully simplistic. Who are the have-nots here? Unionized public employees or those who make substantially less than them yet pay their salaries? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: tpfkaw on February 18, 2011, 01:14:59 AM Well, it's good to know which side you are on. This thread has shed light on that. All that matters in politics, is if you're on the side of the haves, or the have nots. That's awfully simplistic. Who are the have-nots here? Unionized public employees or those who make substantially less than them but yet pay their salaries? Silly cinyc, a "have not" is a wealthy white person who votes Democratic. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 01:20:50 AM Hard to call a woman that term. Especially Texasgurl, who I've known on the forum for many years. You, on the other hand... There are lesbians too you know. And having an insensitive and arrogant frat boy like you calling me a f****t is a badge of honor. You know, something like Stark calling me a Zionist. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: redcommander on February 18, 2011, 01:40:39 AM I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: cinyc on February 18, 2011, 01:41:51 AM The state troopers told to go after the dems refused and the capital police ignored the governors order to clear out the protesters, union solidarity is strong here. As for teachers getting the "Blue Flu" i would prefer they wait until the strike is officially called. Refusing to enforce the law eh, assuming that it is the law? If so, the next step is the national guard. The state troopers work for the state right? I wonder how they should be dealt with, they are refusing to follow orders. And if he does end up paying us like they pay teachers in Mississipi or some other anti worker state Wisconsin will get the same low quality education they get, not everyone can afford to send their kids to a fancy private school like Walker and his rich buddies who will end up getting the money they take from the teachers in another tax break. Let's make one thing clear: Governor Walker NEVER threatened to call out the national guard if government workers protested his proposed changes to bargaining laws. That's an extremely dishonest meme pushed by the Progressive Change Campaign Committee. PolitiFact calls is a pants-on-fire lie (http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/16/progressive-change-campaign-committee/group-says-gov-scott-walker-threatened-send-out-na/). And the Wisconsin National Guard hasn't been called up for anything. But we here on the Atlas Forum all know that Talking Points Memo is always right and "progressives" can't lie - so they must just be making that up. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 01:45:18 AM The state troopers told to go after the dems refused and the capital police ignored the governors order to clear out the protesters, union solidarity is strong here. As for teachers getting the "Blue Flu" i would prefer they wait until the strike is officially called. Refusing to enforce the law eh, assuming that it is the law? If so, the next step is the national guard. The state troopers work for the state right? I wonder how they should be dealt with, they are refusing to follow orders. And if he does end up paying us like they pay teachers in Mississipi or some other anti worker state Wisconsin will get the same low quality education they get, not everyone can afford to send their kids to a fancy private school like Walker and his rich buddies who will end up getting the money they take from the teachers in another tax break. Let's make one thing clear: Governor Walker NEVER threatened to call out the national guard if government workers protested his proposed changes to bargaining laws. That's an extremely dishonest meme pushed by the Progressive Change Campaign Committee. PolitiFact calls is a pants-on-fire lie (http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/16/progressive-change-campaign-committee/group-says-gov-scott-walker-threatened-send-out-na/). And the Wisconsin National Guard hasn't been called up for anything. But we here on the Atlas Forum all know that Talking Points Memo is always right and "progressives" can't lie - so they must just be making that up. Talking Points Memo for your information is a much more credible source of news than your beloved FOX. They have gotten numerous journalistic awards, and for a good reason. As for the budget numbers you so cavalierly dismissed as an "evil liberal plot", they were posted by the Wisconsin budget office which is a non-partisan state organization, like the CBO is for congress. Better luck next time you try refuting facts with lies cinyc. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 01:52:43 AM I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt. Yeah, just like Republicans were punished because they filibustered everything in sight for the last two years. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Wiz in Wis on February 18, 2011, 02:06:27 AM The issue isn't pay, or benefits, it's removing collective bargaining. And for those of you who are citing Texas as a precedent, Wisconsin isn't Texas. There are quite a few Republicans in the legislature who won by a few hundred votes, many of them public workers or their families. They are going to have an army of union workers against them. The Texas Dems didn't have 50,000 workers supporting them in Austin.
Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Beet on February 18, 2011, 02:34:08 AM For those supporting the unions, how would you close Wisconsin's budget gap?
Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: jimrtex on February 18, 2011, 02:40:50 AM Why is it even necessary to run to another state or wherever? Is there some bizarre law in the U.S that means that legislators can be forced to attend? I remember being confused over the Texas thing for the same reason. Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members, and a Majority of each shall constitute a Quorum to do Business; but a smaller Number may adjourn from day to day, and <b>may be authorized to compel the Attendance of absent Members, in such Manner, and under such Penalties as each House may provide.</b> The Texas Constitution is almost word for word identical. Senate Police Seize Packwood for Quorum Call (http://articles.latimes.com/1988-02-25/news/mn-45210_1_quorum-call) Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 02:42:13 AM For those supporting the unions, how would you close Wisconsin's budget gap? There is no budget gap. According the fiscal bureau (the Wisconsin equivalent of CBO) the state was on track to have a balanced budget, or even a surplus, by the end of the current fiscal year. There was a temporary gap because of some tax-cutting measures Walker pushed through the legislature during the first days of his administration. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on February 18, 2011, 02:44:36 AM Exactly. Fix the issue by repealing what Walker did.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on February 18, 2011, 02:48:07 AM The closed schools are in MADISON. People in Madison aren't going to vote Republican over that.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: cinyc on February 18, 2011, 02:48:43 AM Talking Points Memo for your information is a much more credible source of news than your beloved FOX. They have gotten numerous journalistic awards, and for a good reason. As for the budget numbers you so cavalierly dismissed as an "evil liberal plot", they were posted by the Wisconsin budget office which is a non-partisan state organization, like the CBO is for congress. Better luck next time you try refuting facts with lies cinyc. You and your liberal friends can keep on spinning, claiming Wisconsin would have no budget deficit but for those evil Republicans and their reckless spending. But you begin to sound like Baghdad Bob when folks recognize that almost every state is racking up a huge deficit, and even the outgoing DEMOCRATIC Wisconsin governor told his successor (http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/109275069.html) that he would be facing a deficit of $2.2 BILLION - and that estimate was rosy. The Legislative Fiscal Bureau estimated the deficit to be $2.7 billion, and an economist at the University of Wisconsin at $3.1 billion. In fact, according to the state's comptroller (http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/column/article_cd4c3181-c46b-5184-8a1c-f581141b69c7.html), Wisconsin has run in the red for over a decade, and the size of Wisconsin's structural deficit has increased every year during that period but one. But now that a Republican is in office, Wisconsin's deficit would have magically disappeared but for their reckless spending and/or tax cuts. Sure. Governor Walker must be a miracle worker to close a $2 to $3 billion deficit in just a few months! The liberal sources from which you get your "facts" should be lauding him for such a remarkable fiscal turnaround! But they're not - instead, they are attacking him for not lavishing as much of the public fisc on public employees as they would like. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: cinyc on February 18, 2011, 02:54:49 AM The closed schools are in MADISON. People in Madison aren't going to vote Republican over that. Schools in other districts were closed yesterday, too (http://www.wisn.com/news/26895003/detail.html) - including Racine, Glendale-River Hills, Watertown and Beaver Dam in Southeastern Wisconsin. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Beet on February 18, 2011, 03:04:21 AM This is hard to believe. Walker's changes only affected hundreds of millions. It would not be enough to turn a $100 million surplus into a $2-$3 billion deficit.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 03:07:41 AM Talking Points Memo for your information is a much more credible source of news than your beloved FOX. They have gotten numerous journalistic awards, and for a good reason. As for the budget numbers you so cavalierly dismissed as an "evil liberal plot", they were posted by the Wisconsin budget office which is a non-partisan state organization, like the CBO is for congress. Better luck next time you try refuting facts with lies cinyc. You and your liberal friends can keep on spinning, claiming Wisconsin would have no budget deficit but for those evil Republicans and their reckless spending. But you begin to sound like Baghdad Bob when folks recognize that almost every state is racking up a huge deficit, and even the outgoing DEMOCRATIC Wisconsin governor told his successor (http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/109275069.html) that he would be facing a deficit of $2.2 BILLION - and that estimate was rosy. The Legislative Fiscal Bureau estimated the deficit to be $2.7 billion, and an economist at the University of Wisconsin at $3.1 billion. In fact, according to the state's comptroller (http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/column/article_cd4c3181-c46b-5184-8a1c-f581141b69c7.html), Wisconsin has run in the red for over a decade, and the size of Wisconsin's structural deficit has increased every year during that period but one. But now that a Republican is in office, Wisconsin's deficit would have magically disappeared but for their reckless spending and/or tax cuts. Sure. Governor Walker must be a miracle worker to close a $2 to $3 billion deficit in just a few months! The liberal sources from which you get your "facts" should be lauding him for such a remarkable fiscal turnaround! But they're not - instead, they are attacking him for not lavishing as much of the public fisc on public employees as they would like. You should check your sources because they are rather spotty. Then again like your beloved FOX you care more about creating narratives rather than telling the truth. http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html (http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html) In fact, like just about every other state in the country, Wisconsin is managing in a weak economy. The difference is that Wisconsin is managing better -- or at least it had been managing better until Walker took over. Despite shortfalls in revenue following the economic downturn that hit its peak with the Bush-era stock market collapse, the state has balanced budgets, maintained basic services and high-quality schools, and kept employment and business development steadier than the rest of the country. It has managed so well, in fact, that the nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau recently released a memo detailing how the state will end the 2009-2011 budget biennium with a budget surplus. In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million. (snip)_ Here is the document. Enjoy reading. http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf (http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf) Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: jimrtex on February 18, 2011, 03:09:17 AM The Dems all went to Santa Fe in that little drama. At least they had good taste in towns. And in the end, the Dems were f'ed, so it all had a happy ending. :) Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 03:12:15 AM This is hard to believe. Walker's changes only affected hundreds of millions. It would not be enough to turn a $100 million surplus into a $2-$3 billion deficit. There is no billion dollar deficit. Walker is just lying. http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf (http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf) Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Beet on February 18, 2011, 03:16:37 AM This is hard to believe. Walker's changes only affected hundreds of millions. It would not be enough to turn a $100 million surplus into a $2-$3 billion deficit. There is no billion dollar deficit. Walker is just lying. http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf (http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf) You want us to believe that TPM is the only one to pick up on a bald faced lie? The Leg. Fiscal Bureau's report is clearly measuring something different than the projected budget, based on spending plans. I really don't think this is the appropriate line of attack, px75. Aiming at the draconian nature of the attack on the unions' bargaining rights might be more fruitful. Also, Smash255's comments in the other thread about how the law enforcement and firefighter unions shared in the sacrifice, just as much money could be saved. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: jimrtex on February 18, 2011, 03:16:37 AM The Texas Dems still had one yellow dog from a Republican district who fouled it up for them... I wonder if the Wisconsin caucus has anyone similar or if it's a liberal rump that survived last year's slaughter. But it was John Whitmire who returned after he started reading what the judges were actually saying, and realized they were going to be staying in Santa Fe a really long time. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 03:26:23 AM This is hard to believe. Walker's changes only affected hundreds of millions. It would not be enough to turn a $100 million surplus into a $2-$3 billion deficit. There is no billion dollar deficit. Walker is just lying. http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf (http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf) You want us to believe that TPM is the only one to pick up on a bald faced lie? The Leg. Fiscal Bureau's report is clearly measuring something different than the projected budget, based on spending plans. I really don't think this is the appropriate line of attack, px75. Aiming at the draconian nature of the attack on the unions' bargaining rights might be more fruitful. Also, Smash255's comments in the other thread about how the law enforcement and firefighter unions shared in the sacrifice, just as much money could be saved. TPM uncovered the US attorneys scandal when everybody else was asleep. I certainly trust them more than CNN or any other "objective" news source. Also, I'd guess that budget issues in Wisconsin are considered too wonky and boring for the horserace-obsessed traditional media. Anyway, the numbers are there. If you don't trust them it's another story. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Beet on February 18, 2011, 03:29:43 AM px,
cinyc is citing Politifact (Pulitzer prize, called Michelle Bachmann "beyond preposterous", acknowledged that the stimulus created 1 million jobs, etc. etc. etc). You're citing TPM, an obviously unhinged Madison newspaper editorial, and a legislative document with no context which you are almost surely misinterpreting. Your story-- that a $1.5 billion deficit as of late 2010 was transformed into a $100 million surplus in early 2011, which was transformed back into a $2-3 billion deficit by $140 million in budget changes by the Walker administration is makes no sense on face. If the roles were reversed, all of us would be saying that it's another example of how the tea party, the birthers, etc. have driven the GOP off the rails. Let's not do the same thing. Here's more from the Progressive blog Wisconsin Budget Project (http://wisconsinbudgetproject.blogspot.com/): Quote Walker Administration documents that were released on Monday provide updated figures on the General Fund deficit for the current fiscal year and the much larger budget hole for the 2011-13 biennium. The new deficit estimates -- $137 million and $3.6 billion, respectively -- are additive and they don’t include the $200 million (plus interest) that the state will have to pay back to the medical malpractice fund. ... One can make a lot of arguments about the motives for an incoming conservative Governor to use a methodology that increases the estimate of the budget shortfall. Such arguments make for interesting speculation, but I think they are beside the point. The goal should be to paint an accurate picture of the magnitude of the spending cuts and/or new revenue that will be needed to balance the budget. The DOA calculations appear to do a good job of painting that picture. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Beet on February 18, 2011, 03:31:00 AM See my comments in the other thread.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Iosif on February 18, 2011, 03:49:03 AM The state troopers told to go after the dems refused and the capital police ignored the governors order to clear out the protesters, union solidarity is strong here. As for teachers getting the "Blue Flu" i would prefer they wait until the strike is officially called. Refusing to enforce the law eh, assuming that it is the law? If so, the next step is the national guard. The state troopers work for the state right? I wonder how they should be dealt with, they are refusing to follow orders. And if he does end up paying us like they pay teachers in Mississipi or some other anti worker state Wisconsin will get the same low quality education they get, not everyone can afford to send their kids to a fancy private school like Walker and his rich buddies who will end up getting the money they take from the teachers in another tax break. Wonderful post. I fully support my brothers and sisters in Wisconsin in their fight against tyranny. It's a shame they can't recall this SOB until next January... Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 03:50:20 AM px, cinyc is citing Politifact (Pulitzer prize, called Michelle Bachmann "beyond preposterous", acknowledged that the stimulus created 1 million jobs, etc. etc. etc). Cinyc cited politifact about the use of National Guard against protesters, not the budget situation. As for the fiscal bureau document, it's what we have versus Walker's word. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 18, 2011, 04:16:48 AM This sets a TERRIBLE precedent... if you can't win a legislative fight, just abandon your job. Sure, it's just once now, but soon it'll turn into only for "important" bills, and then you'll see it happening for pretty much everything. Look at what happened with the filibuster... it's become abused to the point that it's now a procedural motion that nearly every bill has to overcome. If the bill wasn't a real problem, they would not have gone to such lengths. I think that some procedural measures like this are necessary, to guard against the majority overstepping with legislation. This isn't procedural... this is not doing your job. Procedure is a filibuster or other actions in the chambers. Leaving the state is leaving your job. It's like going on strike, regardless of which side of the Wisconsin-Illinois border they are on -- but striking is not the same abandonment of responsibility that the phrase "leaving your job" would imply Their job is to vote. They're failing to do that... legislator can't just "go on strike" when a bill comes up that they don't like. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 18, 2011, 04:18:02 AM I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt. Yeah, just like Republicans were punished because they filibustered everything in sight for the last two years. This isn't a filibuster. And the legislature can't do anything budget related while they're gone (not that I defend filibustering everything either). Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 18, 2011, 04:19:07 AM This sets a TERRIBLE precedent... if you can't win a legislative fight, just abandon your job. Sure, it's just once now, but soon it'll turn into only for "important" bills, and then you'll see it happening for pretty much everything. Look at what happened with the filibuster... it's become abused to the point that it's now a procedural motion that nearly every bill has to overcome. If the bill wasn't a real problem, they would not have gone to such lengths. I think that some procedural measures like this are necessary, to guard against the majority overstepping with legislation. This isn't procedural... this is not doing your job. Procedure is a filibuster or other actions in the chambers. Leaving the state is leaving your job. It's like going on strike, regardless of which side of the Wisconsin-Illinois border they are on -- but striking is not the same abandonment of responsibility that the phrase "leaving your job" would imply Their job is to vote. They're failing to do that... legislator can't just "go on strike" when a bill comes up that they don't like. Filibuster? That's within the rules of Congress/legislatures. Not showing up is a violation of the rules (and hence the reason the SaA can drag them back). Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 04:20:27 AM I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt. Yeah, just like Republicans were punished because they filibustered everything in sight for the last two years. This isn't a filibuster. Semantics. The overall effect is the same. Republicans could as well skip Washington and nothing would change since a cloture motion needs 60 votes to be adopted, not 41 to reject it. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 18, 2011, 04:22:49 AM I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt. Yeah, just like Republicans were punished because they filibustered everything in sight for the last two years. This isn't a filibuster. Semantics. The overall effect is the same. Republicans could as well skip Washington and nothing would change since a cloture motion needs 60 votes to be adopted, not 41 to reject it. No, because they can still get stuff done while filibustering. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 04:36:31 AM I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt. Yeah, just like Republicans were punished because they filibustered everything in sight for the last two years. This isn't a filibuster. Semantics. The overall effect is the same. Republicans could as well skip Washington and nothing would change since a cloture motion needs 60 votes to be adopted, not 41 to reject it. No, because they can still get stuff done while filibustering. Like what? Passing resolutions about how everybody loves puppies? Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 18, 2011, 04:40:03 AM I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt. Yeah, just like Republicans were punished because they filibustered everything in sight for the last two years. This isn't a filibuster. Semantics. The overall effect is the same. Republicans could as well skip Washington and nothing would change since a cloture motion needs 60 votes to be adopted, not 41 to reject it. No, because they can still get stuff done while filibustering. Like what? Passing resolutions about how everybody loves puppies? Like any other business. You're implying that they accomplish nothing. If that were the case, there would be nothing to filibuster... Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 04:47:58 AM I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt. Yeah, just like Republicans were punished because they filibustered everything in sight for the last two years. This isn't a filibuster. Semantics. The overall effect is the same. Republicans could as well skip Washington and nothing would change since a cloture motion needs 60 votes to be adopted, not 41 to reject it. No, because they can still get stuff done while filibustering. Like what? Passing resolutions about how everybody loves puppies? Like any other business. You're implying that they accomplish nothing. If that were the case, there would be nothing to filibuster... Exactly. Remember when Dick Shelby put a blanket hold on everything because the administration denied him money for some pork barrel project? Or when the Republicans declared than they would filibuster everything if the senate didn't pass the tax cuts for the rich? Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 18, 2011, 05:01:13 AM I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt. Yeah, just like Republicans were punished because they filibustered everything in sight for the last two years. This isn't a filibuster. Semantics. The overall effect is the same. Republicans could as well skip Washington and nothing would change since a cloture motion needs 60 votes to be adopted, not 41 to reject it. No, because they can still get stuff done while filibustering. Like what? Passing resolutions about how everybody loves puppies? Like any other business. You're implying that they accomplish nothing. If that were the case, there would be nothing to filibuster... Exactly. Remember when Dick Shelby put a blanket hold on everything because the administration denied him money for some pork barrel project? Or when the Republicans declared than they would filibuster everything if the senate didn't pass the tax cuts for the rich? What's your point? Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Franzl on February 18, 2011, 05:05:23 AM His point is that both methods obstruct legislative business effectively. Doesn't matter what you call it.
Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 05:06:18 AM That after abusing filibuster for the last two years in such an unprecedented way, Republicans have no right to complain about what Democratic legislators do in Wisconsin right now. His point is that both methods obstruct legislative business effectively. Doesn't matter what you call it. Bingo! Semantics are irrelevant. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 18, 2011, 05:10:26 AM That after abusing filibuster for the last two years in such an unprecedented way, Republicans have no right to complain about what Democratic legislators do in Wisconsin right now. His point is that both methods obstruct legislative business effectively. Doesn't matter what you call it. Bingo! Semantics are irrelevant. I complained about the methods the Republicans used. And you've actually proved my point...these methods have a tendency to progress and get worse. So while the Democrats in WI may only be doing this now for a major bill, it could turn into a usual thing after a while. But no, these 2 things are not the same. There is a difference between a filibuster and skipping town. One is within the rules, and one is not. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 05:14:35 AM That after abusing filibuster for the last two years in such an unprecedented way, Republicans have no right to complain about what Democratic legislators do in Wisconsin right now. His point is that both methods obstruct legislative business effectively. Doesn't matter what you call it. Bingo! Semantics are irrelevant. I complained about the methods the Republicans used. And you've actually proved my point...these methods have a tendency to progress and get worse. So while the Democrats in WI may only be doing this now for a major bill, it could turn into a usual thing after a while. But no, these 2 things are not the same. There is a difference between a filibuster and skipping town. One is within the rules, and one is not. 1)I somehow doubt that it will become something ordinary. Unlike the filibuster, this one requires a certain effort and some level of discomfort for the lawmakers that apply it. 2)I don't think that it's technically illegal to be absent from the legislature. What if you're sick or you have to make an out of state trip for personal matters? Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 18, 2011, 05:16:39 AM It may not be illegal, per se, but they're not excused from being absent. (But I'm off to bed... so if you post, I'll reply in the morning, I'm not ignoring you. ;) )
Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Guderian on February 18, 2011, 05:45:36 AM Massive public sector layoffs would be better, but this will do I guess. I really don't see why do people that spend workdays picking their noses and surfing the interwebz need to unionize anyway.
Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: phk on February 18, 2011, 06:32:38 AM Massive public sector layoffs would be better, but this will do I guess. I really don't see why do people that spend workdays picking their noses and surfing the interwebz need to unionize anyway. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: bgwah on February 18, 2011, 07:01:05 AM This thread is a good example of why I am not a Republican.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Marokai Backbeat on February 18, 2011, 07:51:09 AM This video pretty much describes (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908//vp/39956877#41655758) how I feel without me feeling the need to go on a long tangent about it myself.
This has nothing to do with the budget, this has nothing to do with anything. This is about politics. It is about crippling the Democratic Party in Wisconsin and beyond. This is about winning elections. Nothing less. px, cinyc is citing Politifact (Pulitzer prize, called Michelle Bachmann "beyond preposterous", acknowledged that the stimulus created 1 million jobs, etc. etc. etc). You're citing TPM, an obviously unhinged Madison newspaper editorial, and a legislative document with no context which you are almost surely misinterpreting. Your story-- that a $1.5 billion deficit as of late 2010 was transformed into a $100 million surplus in early 2011, which was transformed back into a $2-3 billion deficit by $140 million in budget changes by the Walker administration is makes no sense on face. If the roles were reversed, all of us would be saying that it's another example of how the tea party, the birthers, etc. have driven the GOP off the rails. Let's not do the same thing. I haven't taken the time to look up anything about the budget situation in Wisconsin, so I don't pretend to know everything about it. (Because, frankly, this issue has nothing to do with the budget. The budget is the excuse.) If this was about the deficit in Wisconsin, why pass nearly 200 million dollars in tax cuts as one of your first actions in a state with a supposedly critical budget situation? If unions must sacrifice, why not even try to negotiate with them? Why go whole hog and effectively remove the ability for these unions to negotiate and collectively bargain at all? If you're going to take this drastic action, why exempt the three unions that, conveniently, supported your election bid, while taking the knife to everyone else? This has nothing to do with the budget. This isn't even about public employee unions trimming up their salaries at all. Negotiating over cuts is one thing, and maybe you could even provide a winning argument that that is what is needed, but Walker didn't negotiate, he never wanted to negotiate, he proposed something and wanted it passed immediately that went straight for the jugular of the unions in Wisconsin. (Which, in and of itself, actually has nothing to do with the deficit anyway.) This is about politics. It's about winning elections. What we are witnessing here is the first major power grab against unions in the new modern American economy. The powers that be have taken off their gloves. (God, I hate sounding like this, but it's the truth.) They're not hiding anymore, they're not pretending anymore. They have the numbers right now and while they've got them, they're going wild. If it isn't stopped here, the consequences will be dire, not just politically, but economically and socially. All because of Wisconsin. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: krazen1211 on February 18, 2011, 08:48:57 AM Outside economists have estimated a large budget deficit over the next 3 years.
http://www.lafollette.wisc.edu/publications/workingpapers/reschovsky2010-016.pdf Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 18, 2011, 08:53:27 AM The closed schools are in MADISON. People in Madison aren't going to vote Republican over that. The people of Madison now have to take off from work to babysit their kids. Have fun. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 18, 2011, 08:54:49 AM If this was about the deficit in Wisconsin, why pass nearly 200 million dollars in tax cuts as one of your first actions in a state with a supposedly critical budget situation? If unions must sacrifice, why not even try to negotiate with them? Why go whole hog and effectively remove the ability for these unions to negotiate and collectively bargain at all? If you're going to take this drastic action, why exempt the three unions that, conveniently, supported your election bid, while taking the knife to everyone else? The unions never came into this with good faith. That's why, after the Republican shellacking of the Democrats last year, the unions tried to ram through a contract in the lame duck session. They turned on their former Senate Majority Leader when he decided to vote against them. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Brittain33 on February 18, 2011, 08:56:57 AM The closed schools are in MADISON. People in Madison aren't going to vote Republican over that. The people of Madison now have to take off from work to babysit their kids. Have fun. Around this time two years ago I was cackling over the prospect of Marco Rubio splitting the Republican party and prevent Crist from winning an election. Have fun. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 18, 2011, 08:57:41 AM Around this time two years ago I was cackling over the prospect of Marco Rubio splitting the Republican party and prevent Crist from winning an election. Have fun. What the hell does that have to do with anything? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Brittain33 on February 18, 2011, 08:58:09 AM Around this time two years ago I was cackling over the prospect of Marco Rubio splitting the Republican party and prevent Crist from winning an election. Have fun. What the hell does that have to do with anything? Your pile of assumptions about how this plays out. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: memphis on February 18, 2011, 09:06:06 AM Well, it's good to know which side you are on. This thread has shed light on that. All that matters in politics, is if you're on the side of the haves, or the have nots. That's awfully simplistic. Who are the have-nots here? Unionized public employees or those who make substantially less than them yet pay their salaries? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 18, 2011, 09:08:38 AM Your pile of assumptions about how this plays out. It's not an assumption. That's a statement of the last 3 days. Madison schools have been closed all week. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Brittain33 on February 18, 2011, 09:16:38 AM I bet you, just bet you, that the deficit commission, that outfit Obama is keeping his distance from that was his creation, and on which all of his appointees signed off the plan that got a healthy majority of both parties on the commission, zeroed that one out. Wanna bet? Let's get on with it! Could you provide a link showing that Bowles' and Simpson's mark-up got a healthy majority of both parties and all of Obama's appointees--and explain why we shouldn't take seriously that they were supposed to get 14 out of 18 signatories and couldn't do that? Why put that requirement in if it's not operative? Did Boehner come out and promise to bring the commission's plan to a vote in the House? If not, do you think Obama coming forward would create a dynamic where he'd become more likely to do so? You want Obama to tell America to eat its broccoli and skip the dessert. I get that. I wanted Bush to be honest about things to his base, too, even while he was flying around the country campaigning on a "have your cake and eat it too" (tax cuts are good for the country and pay for themselves) platform and attacking people who said "you can't do that" as trying to hurt people. You can rate Obama a D, an F, a N/A, etc. because he's not singlehandedly governing as a fiscal conservative. I'll rate Congressional Republicans the same for proving to him last December with their extortion of a massive tax cut that they don't care about the deficit, either. Obama can't lead people who will march in the opposite direction from what he says. Like the Republicans, he has primary voters and party supporters he has to respond to. Why should the Democratic primary voters who are poorer and less secure than the average American be expected to be more responsible adherents of Republican ideology than the millions of Medicare-grubbing Tea Party marchers who we're supposed to coddle as they play the "tax the man behind that tree" game? Quote PS: I also suspect that it is a bit more complex than that they get a 15% rate, and I get (well I used to get) a 37.56% rate. It probably is transactionally driven, and/or some theory behind it that the taxes are paid elsewhere. Or maybe - as you suggest - it is just a swiving scandal. In any event, flush it. To the best of my knowledge, it's the latter. They structured their compensation as capital gains rather than income because they can, and because they can bribe enough Congress members to keep the game going, plus Wall Street has well-placed Democrats in the Senate from the New York metro area who accept that the business of America is CNBC. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Brittain33 on February 18, 2011, 09:17:45 AM Your pile of assumptions about how this plays out. It's not an assumption. That's a statement of the last 3 days. Madison schools have been closed all week. You're being disingenuous. You're talking about how Wisconsin's going to swing even more R than the historic victories in 2010 based on Dems fighting back for what they believe in 21 months before the next elections. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Zarn on February 18, 2011, 09:25:44 AM The state troopers told to go after the dems refused and the capital police ignored the governors order to clear out the protesters, union solidarity is strong here. As for teachers getting the "Blue Flu" i would prefer they wait until the strike is officially called. Refusing to enforce the law eh, assuming that it is the law? If so, the next step is the national guard. The state troopers work for the state right? I wonder how they should be dealt with, they are refusing to follow orders. And if he does end up paying us like they pay teachers in Mississipi or some other anti worker state Wisconsin will get the same low quality education they get, not everyone can afford to send their kids to a fancy private school like Walker and his rich buddies who will end up getting the money they take from the teachers in another tax break. If someone wants to be a teacher, they will, regardless of money. But there are some who become teachers for job security and money. They don't want to be teachers. It's just a job to them. These types ignore the importance of education and go on strike. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: cinyc on February 18, 2011, 09:30:18 AM You should check your sources because they are rather spotty. Then again like your beloved FOX you care more about creating narratives rather than telling the truth. http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html (http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html) In fact, like just about every other state in the country, Wisconsin is managing in a weak economy. The difference is that Wisconsin is managing better -- or at least it had been managing better until Walker took over. Despite shortfalls in revenue following the economic downturn that hit its peak with the Bush-era stock market collapse, the state has balanced budgets, maintained basic services and high-quality schools, and kept employment and business development steadier than the rest of the country. It has managed so well, in fact, that the nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau recently released a memo detailing how the state will end the 2009-2011 budget biennium with a budget surplus. In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million. (snip)_ Here is the document. Enjoy reading. http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf (http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf) Funny. I haven't cited Fox News once in this debate. You are conflating a surplus that the state may or may not end up with at the end of the current two-year fiscal period (2009-2011) with what every observer I've read, partisan or otherwise, sees as a projected deficit at the end of the NEXT two-year fiscal period (2011-2013). They might not agree whether that deficit is going to be $2.1 billion or $3.6 billion, but nobody I know of, even the legislative report you linked, denies there will be a deficit that the current government needs to close. In fact, the legislative report you linked expects 2011-2013 general fund tax revenues to be LOWER than their last forecast, meaning the expected budget gap would likely be higher than they last forecast. If you bothered to read my links, you'd know that while Wisconsin's budgets may have been balanced on paper, they (like most states) have relied on gimmicks and one-shot deals to do so. The state's comptroller, using generally accepted accounting principles, has noted that Wisconsin's budget has been out of balance every year for the past decade - and the amount of that structural deficit has been growing. The day of reckoning has arrived. At best, you can make the argument that but for the Republicans' tax cuts, these particular public employee givebacks wouldn't be required or could have been more limited. But then you'd have to explain why public employee benefits are so sacrosanct that they can't be cut while other areas of the government are being slashed, too. What makes public employee pay so special that it cannot be cut, even if doing so averts massive layoffs? And why is requiring a vote of their ultimate employer - Wisconsin's taxpayers - before hiking public employee pay more than the rate of inflation such a terrible idea, anyway? But you don't seem to want to have this debate. Instead, you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend that a problem that exists in almost every state doesn't exist in Wisconsin because it is temporarily politically expedient to do so. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 18, 2011, 09:32:25 AM Your pile of assumptions about how this plays out. It's not an assumption. That's a statement of the last 3 days. Madison schools have been closed all week. You're being disingenuous. You're talking about how Wisconsin's going to swing even more R than the historic victories in 2010 based on Dems fighting back for what they believe in 21 months before the next elections. That's what I believe, yeah, but that statement you quoted wasn't related to that. It was simply a mere statement of events. I have no idea whether Madison liberals happy babysitting their kids or not. Perhaps they are. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Brittain33 on February 18, 2011, 09:51:59 AM cinyc, note that Walker goes beyond givebacks to help close a budget deficit into bona fide union-busting tactics. You and many others may feel that was an appropriate course of action for the greater good, but it also gives unions greater incentive to declare WW3 in response.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Zarn on February 18, 2011, 10:01:52 AM cinyc, note that Walker goes beyond givebacks to help close a budget deficit into bona fide union-busting tactics. You and many others may feel that was an appropriate course of action for the greater good, but it also gives unions greater incentive to declare WW3 in response. A war they will eventually lose... Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Platypus on February 18, 2011, 10:11:08 AM If only these protesters had dressed up in 18th century garb and held signs with horrible spelling about how Obama is simultaneously a Muslim, Socialist and Nazi. Then they would be true American patriots. Nah, the identical glossy machine-printed sign look is much snappier. Bonus points if they're all wearing identical t-shirts too. Of course, it's really only first-rate when they hire people at minimum wage to protest for them. Guess who fought for the minimum wage. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 10:29:45 AM The unions never came into this with good faith. Came into what? What part of "there were no negotiations" don't you understand Mr. Too-Much-Education-Has-Destroyed-America? Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 10:30:57 AM Outside economists have estimated a large budget deficit over the next 3 years. http://www.lafollette.wisc.edu/publications/workingpapers/reschovsky2010-016.pdf Let me guess: they proposed a series of tax cuts to fix the deficit. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Sbane on February 18, 2011, 10:40:24 AM So how much of an idiot is this governor? Now, I am certainly no fan of public employee unions and perhaps they are being coddled in Wisconsin, I am not sure. I have seen his proposals to increase the contributions workers make to their healthcare and pensions and I agree with that. But where things go awry is when he tries to take away collective bargaining rights from the employees.
What does taking away the rights of unions to collect dues have to do with the deficit? What does having to have a yearly vote to keep your union together have to do with the deficit? This moron overreached and it's sad Republicans here can't see that. I also don't like public employee unions, but this bill goes above and beyond just taking away plush benefits from them. Keep the unions in line, but don't take away people's rights to form them. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Nym90 on February 18, 2011, 10:43:04 AM Excellent news. Hopefully this will inspire others to follow suit and we can eventually stop the destructive assault on the economy that is being made under the guise of union busting.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Sbane on February 18, 2011, 10:57:39 AM Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving).
So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing when the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Sbane on February 18, 2011, 11:01:04 AM The state troopers told to go after the dems refused and the capital police ignored the governors order to clear out the protesters, union solidarity is strong here. As for teachers getting the "Blue Flu" i would prefer they wait until the strike is officially called. Refusing to enforce the law eh, assuming that it is the law? If so, the next step is the national guard. The state troopers work for the state right? I wonder how they should be dealt with, if they are refusing to follow orders. They should just hire blackwater. They will crack skulls with bullets if need be. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: krazen1211 on February 18, 2011, 11:01:05 AM Outside economists have estimated a large budget deficit over the next 3 years. http://www.lafollette.wisc.edu/publications/workingpapers/reschovsky2010-016.pdf Let me guess: they proposed a series of spending cuts on education to fix the deficit. Corrected. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 18, 2011, 11:05:50 AM cinyc, note that Walker goes beyond givebacks to help close a budget deficit into bona fide union-busting tactics. You and many others may feel that was an appropriate course of action for the greater good, but it also gives unions greater incentive to declare WW3 in response. What is wrong with the unions declaring WW3? There probably will be one anyway, across the country in many places. The numbers are going to drive a plate tectonic shift. War is one way to resolve differences. It is not as if the GOP has any interest in placating public employee unions (except those public safety folks sadly), anyway. So given that they are a major part of the problem, go after them. Why not? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Capitan Zapp Brannigan on February 18, 2011, 11:08:48 AM I agree with the cuts but destroying collective bargaining is going to far. That's just to destroy a political enemy, which is fine, but they should be upfront about it.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 18, 2011, 11:10:15 AM Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving). So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing when the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that? Because they are paid with public money that is why. If I were paid with public money, working as a lawyer for the government, what I was "paid" over the years would certainly be fair game - because it would be outrageous. I would be saying extremely nasty things about the lawyers' union - very nasty. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Nym90 on February 18, 2011, 11:16:05 AM The idea that we only pay the salaries of public employees, but that those of private employees are no concern of ours or are not in any way borne by us is quite mind bogglingly illogical to me, quite frankly.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on February 18, 2011, 11:16:51 AM I agree with the cuts but destroying collective bargaining is going to far. That's just to destroy a political enemy, which is fine, but they should be upfront about it. I don't see them as hiding their intentions at all. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Sbane on February 18, 2011, 11:17:09 AM The state troopers told to go after the dems refused and the capital police ignored the governors order to clear out the protesters, union solidarity is strong here. As for teachers getting the "Blue Flu" i would prefer they wait until the strike is officially called. Refusing to enforce the law eh, assuming that it is the law? If so, the next step is the national guard. The state troopers work for the state right? I wonder how they should be dealt with, they are refusing to follow orders. And if he does end up paying us like they pay teachers in Mississipi or some other anti worker state Wisconsin will get the same low quality education they get, not everyone can afford to send their kids to a fancy private school like Walker and his rich buddies who will end up getting the money they take from the teachers in another tax break. If someone wants to be a teacher, they will, regardless of money. But there are some who become teachers for job security and money. They don't want to be teachers. It's just a job to them. These types ignore the importance of education and go on strike. Should teachers get paid at market rates for someone with a bachelor's degree? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 11:18:57 AM Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving). So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing when the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that? Because they are paid with public money that is why. If I were paid with public money, working as a lawyer for the government, what I was "paid" over the years would certainly be fair game - because it would be outrageous. I would be saying extremely nasty things about the lawyers' union - very nasty. So according to Republican ideology public workers are acceptable members of society only if they are paid the minimum wage, otherwise they are the scum of the earth and the root of all evil. OK. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 18, 2011, 11:19:33 AM The idea that we only pay the salaries of public employees, but that those of private employees are no concern of ours or are not in any way borne by us is quite mind bogglingly illogical to me, quite frankly. Why is it any concern of yours again as to what some private client of mine and I agree will be my billing rate? Why is it any concern of yours, or the public, whether we agree on $250 an hour, or $500 an hour? And why is it any concern of yours whether I make 200K per year, or 600K, if all paid by private clients? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Sbane on February 18, 2011, 11:21:32 AM Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving). So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing when the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that? Because they are paid with public money that is why. If I were paid with public money, working as a lawyer for the government, what I was "paid" over the years would certainly be fair game - because it would be outrageous. I would be saying extremely nasty things about the lawyers' union - very nasty. Again I don't see the difference between the administrator at a local public school making a lot of money thus affecting the quality of education or taxes and a administrator at a private school making a lot of money leading to hikes in tuition. I don't care whether my money is going to the government or a business, the point is that it's going more to the administrator than to my child's classroom. Whether it is a private or public school is highly irrelevant. I pay taxes in US dollars and I pay tuition in US dollars. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on February 18, 2011, 11:22:05 AM Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving). So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing w hen the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that? Because they are paid with public money that is why. If I were paid with public money, working as a lawyer for the government, what I was "paid" over the years would certainly be fair game - because it would be outrageous. I would be saying extremely nasty things about the lawyers' union - very nasty. So according to Republican ideology public workers are acceptable members of society only if they are paid the minimum wage, otherwise they are the scum of the earth and the root of all evil. OK. Excessive hyperbole and distort much? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 11:23:24 AM Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving). So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing w hen the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that? Because they are paid with public money that is why. If I were paid with public money, working as a lawyer for the government, what I was "paid" over the years would certainly be fair game - because it would be outrageous. I would be saying extremely nasty things about the lawyers' union - very nasty. So according to Republican ideology public workers are acceptable members of society only if they are paid the minimum wage, otherwise they are the scum of the earth and the root of all evil. OK. Excessive hyperbole and distort much? Greek socialism is tried and prove (to suck) Don't shoot the messenger. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on February 18, 2011, 11:23:43 AM Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving). So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing w hen the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that? Because they are paid with public money that is why. If I were paid with public money, working as a lawyer for the government, what I was "paid" over the years would certainly be fair game - because it would be outrageous. I would be saying extremely nasty things about the lawyers' union - very nasty. So according to Republican ideology public workers are acceptable members of society only if they are paid the minimum wage, otherwise they are the scum of the earth and the root of all evil. OK. Excessive hyperbole and distort much? Greek socialism is tried and prove (to suck) Don't shoot the messenger. Dude, you have no message. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 18, 2011, 11:24:36 AM Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving). So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing when the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that? Because they are paid with public money that is why. If I were paid with public money, working as a lawyer for the government, what I was "paid" over the years would certainly be fair game - because it would be outrageous. I would be saying extremely nasty things about the lawyers' union - very nasty. So according to Republican ideology public workers are acceptable members of society only if they are paid the minimum wage, otherwise they are the scum of the earth and the root of all evil. OK. No, just the market rate, like I am, and most of us are, who do not work for the government. If it is janitorial work, and the market rate is the minimum wage, that is why we have the income tax credit, etc., if necessary to get the standard of living up to some minimum level as to which we agree comports with our values. Yes, I am right wing on this issue, but I would submit, that there is a very good case to be made that it is my team that is looking out for the little guy on this one, not the opposition. Paying more for government services than we need to, does not help the little guy - indeed they can least afford that waste, because it will have a tendency to come out of government services that otherwise benefit them at the margins. To me it is just wrong. I sleep well at night on this one. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on February 18, 2011, 11:27:28 AM Excessive hyperbole and distort much? Not particularly; it's the logical end point of a lot of right-wing rhetoric (and, to be fair, theory) regarding public sector workers. Of course most people shy away from taking that kind of thing to its logical conclusion. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 18, 2011, 11:29:04 AM Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving). So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing when the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that? Because they are paid with public money that is why. If I were paid with public money, working as a lawyer for the government, what I was "paid" over the years would certainly be fair game - because it would be outrageous. I would be saying extremely nasty things about the lawyers' union - very nasty. Again I don't see the difference between the administrator at a local public school making a lot of money thus affecting the quality of education or taxes and a administrator at a private school making a lot of money leading to hikes in tuition. I don't care whether my money is going to the government or a business, the point is that it's going more to the administrator than to my child's classroom. Whether it is a private or public school is highly irrelevant. I pay taxes in US dollars and I pay tuition in US dollars. Well if the private school tuition gets uncompetitive, students will go elsewhere. It is all set by the market, and that is all the right wants when it comes to public employees - exactly the same thing. Somehow, I strongly doubt the top administrators of private secondary schools make anything like you suggest, and indeed in general they probably make less than similar persons in the public school system. But that is neither here nor there. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 11:30:06 AM Dude, you have no message. Gramps, you and Torie are reflexively hostile to public workers, regardless of whether they are actually overpaid or underpaid. There is zero evidence until now that Wisconsin workers were overpaid or somehow were an obscene burden to the state's budget. I'm with you when you protest about what happens in New York or California, where there is evidence that the unions are sucking the states dry. But in this case I believe that both of you have let your prejudices cloud your judgment. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on February 18, 2011, 11:32:57 AM Excessive hyperbole and distort much? Not particularly; it's the logical end point of a lot of right-wing rhetoric (and, to be fair, theory) regarding public sector workers. Of course most people shy away from taking that kind of thing to its logical conclusion. Torie doesn't espouse such rhetoric or theory....I'm hard pressed to find a pub here who does. I suppose you can find far right whackos who believe it, but it doesn't add to a productive back and forth with Torie. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 18, 2011, 11:33:33 AM Quote Gramps, you and Torie are reflexively hostile to public workers, regardless of whether they are actually overpaid or underpaid. If that is the case, than my level of self awareness still needs some work. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on February 18, 2011, 11:37:36 AM Quote Gramps, you and Torie are reflexively hostile to public workers, regardless of whether they are actually overpaid or underpaid. If that is the case, than my level of self awareness still needs some work. Me too........ Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Sbane on February 18, 2011, 11:42:41 AM Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving). So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing when the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that? Because they are paid with public money that is why. If I were paid with public money, working as a lawyer for the government, what I was "paid" over the years would certainly be fair game - because it would be outrageous. I would be saying extremely nasty things about the lawyers' union - very nasty. Again I don't see the difference between the administrator at a local public school making a lot of money thus affecting the quality of education or taxes and a administrator at a private school making a lot of money leading to hikes in tuition. I don't care whether my money is going to the government or a business, the point is that it's going more to the administrator than to my child's classroom. Whether it is a private or public school is highly irrelevant. I pay taxes in US dollars and I pay tuition in US dollars. Well if the private school tuition gets uncompetitive, students will go elsewhere. It is all set by the market, and that is all the right wants when it comes to public employees - exactly the same thing. Somehow, I strongly doubt the top administrators of private secondary schools make anything like you suggest, and indeed in general they probably make less than similar persons in the public school system. But that is neither here nor there. Well, the bigger something gets, the more the guys on the top make while the service at the bottom remains the same. You are absolutely right that the top administrator at a private school with just one branch doesn't make anything obscene. But if there was a chain of them, the guys at the top would be making Millions, trust me. And if you don't then just take a look at any industry and find me people at the top making reasonable 200-300k a year salaries. So if these guys get to make a Million, then does the guy who runs the La unified school district also get to make a Million? Wouldn't that be the market rate for him? Obviously I am not a fan of the teacher's union and the way they get paid is extremely retarded. They should get paid at market rates with those teaching home ec maybe making 40k but a well-liked science teacher who has been working in the district for a while should be making 100k+. And yes, good administrators in huge school districts should make 500k or more. Do you think public employees could ever get that high of salaries? You don't think the Republicans would make it a campaign issue? Paying teachers at market rates doesn't seem to be something either the Teachers unions want or what the Republicans want. Or at least they want to pay market rate for janitors and gym teachers while paying lower than that for math and science teachers. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Sbane on February 18, 2011, 11:44:11 AM Oh yeah Torie, why do you think workers in public schools make more than those in private schools? Cite?
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: patrick1 on February 18, 2011, 11:47:19 AM The idea that we only pay the salaries of public employees, but that those of private employees are no concern of ours or are not in any way borne by us is quite mind bogglingly illogical to me, quite frankly. Why is it any concern of yours again as to what some private client of mine and I agree will be my billing rate? Why is it any concern of yours, or the public, whether we agree on $250 an hour, or $500 an hour? And why is it any concern of yours whether I make 200K per year, or 600K, if all paid by private clients? The same bracket who frequently whine and raise holy hell at any tax increases. In regard to budget gaps and how to fill them, both sides are hypocritical, and both parties merely serve to placate their special interests. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on February 18, 2011, 11:48:29 AM Oh yeah Torie, why do you think workers in public schools make more than those in private schools? Cite? Is there really argument on that, Sbane. Private schools, most notably Catholic ones, can barely afford to keep the doors open, much less pay their teachers well. I found a website where teachers discuss this issue, sbane http://forums.atozteacherstuff.com/showthread.php?t=12169 Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Nym90 on February 18, 2011, 11:49:21 AM The idea that we only pay the salaries of public employees, but that those of private employees are no concern of ours or are not in any way borne by us is quite mind bogglingly illogical to me, quite frankly. Why is it any concern of yours again as to what some private client of mine and I agree will be my billing rate? Why is it any concern of yours, or the public, whether we agree on $250 an hour, or $500 an hour? And why is it any concern of yours whether I make 200K per year, or 600K, if all paid by private clients? The way in which I would pay for it depends on who the client is (I'm not sure what type of attorney you are so please forgive my ignorance in that regard). If he's a representative of a corporation that sells products or services, the legal expenses are going to be paid for by higher prices. If he's paying you for a criminal defense, it doesn't have nearly as much direct impact, but increases in the going rate for such services does make them that much more inaccessible to those unable to pay the fees. I could go on, but again, there is no magic reason why public sector wages are the only ones we pay. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 18, 2011, 11:50:41 AM Oh yeah Torie, why do you think workers in public schools make more than those in private schools? Cite? I am not sure what you mean by "workers," but when I researched this issue heavily during the voucher campaign about 15 years ago (I was a speaker on that subject), private school teachers made less than public school ones (sometimes considerably less), and the administrative structures tended to be far learner and meaner than public school, with the latter bloated. I don't know about the janitorial pay scales. By the way, I really would like to pay public school teachers more. If only they could be hired and fired based on performance, and we were attracting the A students to the profession, rather than the C students from third rate colleges. And then of course, what goes on in the classroom needs to be changed. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Sbane on February 18, 2011, 11:52:57 AM Oh yeah Torie, why do you think workers in public schools make more than those in private schools? Cite? Is there really argument on that, Sbane. Private schools, most notably Catholic ones, can barely afford to keep the doors open, much less pay their teachers well. I am sure it depends from school to school. The private schools around here certainly don't seem to be struggling.... And again what do you think will happen if the schooling industry was privatized? Chains will spring up and the guys at the top will make boatloads of money (and perhaps it will be justified by the market but no public school administrator would make that sort of money). If you think otherwise, I would like you to look into this beautiful oceanfront property I have in Baker, Ca. I will give it to you half off. :P Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on February 18, 2011, 11:57:04 AM Oh yeah Torie, why do you think workers in public schools make more than those in private schools? Cite? Is there really argument on that, Sbane. Private schools, most notably Catholic ones, can barely afford to keep the doors open, much less pay their teachers well. I am sure it depends from school to school. The private schools around here certainly don't seem to be struggling.... And again what do you think will happen if the schooling industry was privatized? Chains will spring up and the guys at the top will make boatloads of money (and perhaps it will be justified by the market but no public school administrator would make that sort of money). If you think otherwise, I would like you to look into this beautiful oceanfront property I have in Baker, Ca. I will give it to you half off. :P I'm not looking to privatize, honestly. The transition would be disasterous. I may differ from others, but the salaries don't bother me too much, but legacy costs have to be reduced and it as to be easier to get rid of the bums.......that applies to all unions.....and in fact all business. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Sbane on February 18, 2011, 11:58:57 AM Oh yeah Torie, why do you think workers in public schools make more than those in private schools? Cite? I am not sure what you mean by "workers," but when I researched this issue heavily during the voucher campaign about 15 years ago (I was a speaker on that subject), private school teachers made less than public school ones (sometimes considerably less), and the administrative structures tended to be far learner and meaner than public school, with the latter bloated. I don't know about the janitorial pay scales. By the way, I really would like to pay public school teachers more. If only they could be hired and fired based on performance, and we were attracting the A students to the profession, rather than the C students from third rate colleges. And then of course, what goes on in the classroom needs to be changed. I said "workers" so everybody was included like Janitors, Teachers, Administrators etc. I am sure the private school business is pretty cutthroat right now. It won't be if it is privatized though, just keep that in mind. I basically agree with your second statement, which is quite similar to what Steve Poizner said in a debate once. Take away the plush benefits from public employees but pay them at market rates. The only problem with that is at the higher up positions where the true market rate is pretty damn high. Again we are fine with CEO's making that sort of money, but there would be extreme outrage if a guy in government did, even if it was the market rate. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 18, 2011, 12:00:56 PM The idea that we only pay the salaries of public employees, but that those of private employees are no concern of ours or are not in any way borne by us is quite mind bogglingly illogical to me, quite frankly. Why is it any concern of yours again as to what some private client of mine and I agree will be my billing rate? Why is it any concern of yours, or the public, whether we agree on $250 an hour, or $500 an hour? And why is it any concern of yours whether I make 200K per year, or 600K, if all paid by private clients? The way in which I would pay for it depends on who the client is (I'm not sure what type of attorney you are so please forgive my ignorance in that regard). If he's a representative of a corporation that sells products or services, the legal expenses are going to be paid for by higher prices. If he's paying you for a criminal defense, it doesn't have nearly as much direct impact, but increases in the going rate for such services does make them that much more inaccessible to those unable to pay the fees. I could go on, but again, there is no magic reason why public sector wages are the only ones we pay. If the corporation can find an equally good and responsive lawyer for less, than the corporate officer who retained me is a dumb. In fact, I sometimes do send clients away, and refer them out. I tell them that my rate is too high, and given the skill level required for what they need done, they can get it done elsewhere for less. I tend to gravitate to matters where I have a lot of value to add, because it is within my core skill set - often involving complex financial matters as to which, as I lawyer, I have an unusual ability to parse. That nexus between the law, economics, and finance is my sweet spot, and folks in the past paid me a lot of money for it. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Sbane on February 18, 2011, 12:03:25 PM Oh yeah Torie, why do you think workers in public schools make more than those in private schools? Cite? Is there really argument on that, Sbane. Private schools, most notably Catholic ones, can barely afford to keep the doors open, much less pay their teachers well. I am sure it depends from school to school. The private schools around here certainly don't seem to be struggling.... And again what do you think will happen if the schooling industry was privatized? Chains will spring up and the guys at the top will make boatloads of money (and perhaps it will be justified by the market but no public school administrator would make that sort of money). If you think otherwise, I would like you to look into this beautiful oceanfront property I have in Baker, Ca. I will give it to you half off. :P I'm not looking to privatize, honestly. The transition would be disasterous. I may differ from others, but the salaries don't bother me too much, but legacy costs have to be reduced and it as to be easier to get rid of the bums.......that applies to all unions.....and in fact all business. Salaries are certainly not the problem, the bums who are protected from being fired are. I knew a teacher who had been teaching at my school for 30 years, probably making close to 100k, and the class she taught was basic computer skills (which most high schoolers know by elementary school these days). On the flip side I had an AP chemistry teacher who just finished her PhD and had taught at the school for only a year. I doubt she made more than 40-50k. Perhaps the district supplemented some of her income since we are a wealthy district, but that can't happen in most schools. Also at this school I had a AP history teacher who identified himself as a communist (he is really a socialist but he wanted to shock us). Even he had a huge problem with the union. Now I hear he has left the school for the private sector. He was one of the best teachers at our school and raised AP scores during the time he was there. If there was ever a person deserving of higher merit pay (he was also a young so he get a pittance) it was him. Now he is gone but all the incompetents are still there. Oh well. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on February 18, 2011, 12:11:36 PM Oh yeah Torie, why do you think workers in public schools make more than those in private schools? Cite? Is there really argument on that, Sbane. Private schools, most notably Catholic ones, can barely afford to keep the doors open, much less pay their teachers well. I am sure it depends from school to school. The private schools around here certainly don't seem to be struggling.... And again what do you think will happen if the schooling industry was privatized? Chains will spring up and the guys at the top will make boatloads of money (and perhaps it will be justified by the market but no public school administrator would make that sort of money). If you think otherwise, I would like you to look into this beautiful oceanfront property I have in Baker, Ca. I will give it to you half off. :P I'm not looking to privatize, honestly. The transition would be disasterous. I may differ from others, but the salaries don't bother me too much, but legacy costs have to be reduced and it as to be easier to get rid of the bums.......that applies to all unions.....and in fact all business. Salaries are certainly not the problem, the bums who are protected from being fired are. I knew a teacher who had been teaching at my school for 30 years, probably making close to 100k, and the class she taught was basic computer skills (which most high schoolers know by elementary school these days). On the flip side I had an AP chemistry teacher who just finished her PhD and had taught at the school for only a year. I doubt she made more than 40-50k. Perhaps the district supplemented some of her income since we are a wealthy district, but that can't happen in most schools. It appears we don't disagree much.......like I said, hey I wouldn't be teacher regardless of salary, but the legacy costs are not sustainable, period. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Brittain33 on February 18, 2011, 12:15:17 PM Seven Green Bay Packers come down on the side of the unions.
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wi_house_dems_warn_gov_walker_not_to_cross_packers.php Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on February 18, 2011, 12:26:18 PM Wow. I actually respect something about the Packers. :o
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on February 18, 2011, 12:27:02 PM Seven Green Bay Packers come down on the side of the unions. http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wi_house_dems_warn_gov_walker_not_to_cross_packers.php Hey maybe they can pitch in to help the budget deficit and end this nonsense! Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 12:39:05 PM Ezra Klein's take of the situation.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2011/02/unions_arent_to_blame_for_wisc.html#more (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2011/02/unions_arent_to_blame_for_wisc.html#more) ... The Badger State was actually in pretty good shape. It was supposed to end this budget cycle with about $120 million in the bank. Instead, it's facing a deficit. Why? I'll let the state's official fiscal scorekeeper explain (pdf): More than half of the lower estimate ($117.2 million) is due to the impact of Special Session Senate Bill 2 (health savings accounts), Assembly Bill 3 (tax deductions/credits for relocated businesses), and Assembly Bill 7 (tax exclusion for new employees). In English: The governor signed two business tax breaks and a conservative health-care policy experiment that lowers overall tax revenues. The new legislation was not offset, and it turned a surplus into a deficit. As Brian Beutler writes, "public workers are being asked to pick up the tab for this agenda." But even that's not the full story here. Public employees aren't being asked to make a one-time payment into the state's coffers. Rather, Walker is proposing to sharply curtail their right to bargain collectively. A cyclical downturn that isn't their fault, plus an unexpected reversal in Wisconsin's budget picture that wasn't their doing, is being used to permanently end their ability to sit across the table from their employer and negotiate what their health insurance should look like. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on February 18, 2011, 12:43:49 PM Nice to see the DNC stay involed (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0211/DNC_playing_role_in_Wisconsin_protests.html?showall)
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Brittain33 on February 18, 2011, 12:46:23 PM Nice to see the DNC stay involed (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0211/DNC_playing_role_in_Wisconsin_protests.html?showall) This is the first battle of the 2012 election. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on February 18, 2011, 12:50:07 PM Nice to see the DNC stay involed (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0211/DNC_playing_role_in_Wisconsin_protests.html?showall) This is the first battle of the 2012 election. Good point Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 12:52:48 PM Nice to see the DNC stay involed (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0211/DNC_playing_role_in_Wisconsin_protests.html?showall) This is the first battle of the 2012 election. LOL at Bohener for asking Obama to stay away. Apparently only he and other national Republicans have the right to get involved. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: bullmoose88 on February 18, 2011, 01:14:37 PM Its my ancedotal experience that private school teachers in suburban collar county areas make less than their counterparts in public schools (which are in typically wealthy districts). I went to a catholic prep school outside Philly and the teachers openly admitted that either (they had worked in the public schools, made a ton of money, but liked this atmosphere more and were willing to take less) or that they were starting off here (first job and all) but when the school really couldn't compete with another suburban public school...they left.
Whether thats the same situation inside the city of Philadelphia or in a archdioscean school situated in a poorer suburb...hard to say. Maybe salary values are near equal. Thats all I have to say about that. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Beet on February 18, 2011, 01:18:14 PM This video pretty much describes (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908//vp/39956877#41655758) how I feel without me feeling the need to go on a long tangent about it myself. This has nothing to do with the budget, this has nothing to do with anything. This is about politics. It is about crippling the Democratic Party in Wisconsin and beyond. This is about winning elections. Nothing less. px, cinyc is citing Politifact (Pulitzer prize, called Michelle Bachmann "beyond preposterous", acknowledged that the stimulus created 1 million jobs, etc. etc. etc). You're citing TPM, an obviously unhinged Madison newspaper editorial, and a legislative document with no context which you are almost surely misinterpreting. Your story-- that a $1.5 billion deficit as of late 2010 was transformed into a $100 million surplus in early 2011, which was transformed back into a $2-3 billion deficit by $140 million in budget changes by the Walker administration is makes no sense on face. If the roles were reversed, all of us would be saying that it's another example of how the tea party, the birthers, etc. have driven the GOP off the rails. Let's not do the same thing. I haven't taken the time to look up anything about the budget situation in Wisconsin, so I don't pretend to know everything about it. (Because, frankly, this issue has nothing to do with the budget. The budget is the excuse.) If this was about the deficit in Wisconsin, why pass nearly 200 million dollars in tax cuts as one of your first actions in a state with a supposedly critical budget situation? If unions must sacrifice, why not even try to negotiate with them? Why go whole hog and effectively remove the ability for these unions to negotiate and collectively bargain at all? If you're going to take this drastic action, why exempt the three unions that, conveniently, supported your election bid, while taking the knife to everyone else? This has nothing to do with the budget. This isn't even about public employee unions trimming up their salaries at all. Negotiating over cuts is one thing, and maybe you could even provide a winning argument that that is what is needed, but Walker didn't negotiate, he never wanted to negotiate, he proposed something and wanted it passed immediately that went straight for the jugular of the unions in Wisconsin. (Which, in and of itself, actually has nothing to do with the deficit anyway.) This is about politics. It's about winning elections. What we are witnessing here is the first major power grab against unions in the new modern American economy. The powers that be have taken off their gloves. (God, I hate sounding like this, but it's the truth.) They're not hiding anymore, they're not pretending anymore. They have the numbers right now and while they've got them, they're going wild. If it isn't stopped here, the consequences will be dire, not just politically, but economically and socially. All because of Wisconsin. I'm sympathetic to this viewpoint. Here's the thing that gets me, though. You say this issue has nothing to do with the budget. Yet the outcome of this battle will surely impact the budget, not only in Wisconsin but in many other states, and not only this year but for many years to come. I mean, when does it become about the budget? We've been putting off the budget discussion for 10 years, which is why we're in this mess to begin with. In Washington, they're not seriously discussing it either. I demand to have the budget discussion. And since no one is giving it to me, I want to take it where-ever I can get it, including this union-busting bill. In other words, I'm not buying px75's bullsh**t. Even the Ezra Klein blog post makes no refutation of the $2 billion-$3 billion deficit claim. So the cuts have to come somewhere. Where do you think they should come? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 18, 2011, 01:28:11 PM Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero? Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan? That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: bullmoose88 on February 18, 2011, 01:32:17 PM Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero? Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan? That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm. Easy to see why they're fighting this so hard. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Associate Justice PiT on February 18, 2011, 01:33:33 PM Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero? Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan? That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm. Public sector employees in San Francisco had a fit over a proposition that would have increased their contribution to their pension from 7.5% to 9% (& made MUNI drivers actually contribute something). I must say, they have nerve in spades. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Sbane on February 18, 2011, 01:34:05 PM Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero? Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan? That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm. It's actually not that bad at all,and I bet similar measures are being put forth in many different states. The problem isn't with that though, it's with the union busting portions of the bill. What does not requiring workers to pay union dues have to do with the budget? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Sbane on February 18, 2011, 01:35:29 PM Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero? Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan? That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm. Easy to see why they're fighting this so hard. It's only become such a big deal due to the effort to take away collective bargaining rights. I bet cuts like this are happening in a lot of different places and there is not this much outrage. Cut benefits but don't take away people's rights. Pretty simple. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Brittain33 on February 18, 2011, 01:38:03 PM Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero? Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan? That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm. Plus having their union busted and collective bargaining rights taken away, while nothing happens to police and fire. I have less of an issue with them pushing cost cuts than with the existential battle picked by Walker--which, again, I'm not going to say he was wrong as a Republican to fight on. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: bullmoose88 on February 18, 2011, 01:44:08 PM Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero? Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan? That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm. Easy to see why they're fighting this so hard. It's only become such a big deal due to the effort to take away collective bargaining rights. I bet cuts like this are happening in a lot of different places and there is not this much outrage. Cut benefits but don't take away people's rights. Pretty simple. I live in a school district where there is a battle going on between the school board and teachers union over having the teachers pay more for their benefits. The entry level salaries for teachers here is pretty decent, like 50 or 60k and I'd say most make at least 70k or more, and a significant portion are in the 90-100k range. Its been pretty nasty. The commonwealth hasn't done anything like Walker, and the teachers havent called in sick, but they're deliberately doing the minimum (not showing up to parent teacher nights, even stuff like not decorating the bulletin boards in the hallways etc). I dont blame them for defending what they have, but when the economy sucks like it does, expecting the taxpayer to fund their salaries and their insurance/pension plans doesnt endear them to anyone. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Sbane on February 18, 2011, 01:53:24 PM Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero? Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan? That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm. Easy to see why they're fighting this so hard. It's only become such a big deal due to the effort to take away collective bargaining rights. I bet cuts like this are happening in a lot of different places and there is not this much outrage. Cut benefits but don't take away people's rights. Pretty simple. I live in a school district where there is a battle going on between the school board and teachers union over having the teachers pay more for their benefits. The entry level salaries for teachers here is pretty decent, like 50 or 60k and I'd say most make at least 70k or more, and a significant portion are in the 90-100k range. Its been pretty nasty. The commonwealth hasn't done anything like Walker, and the teachers havent called in sick, but they're deliberately doing the minimum (not showing up to parent teacher nights, even stuff like not decorating the bulletin boards in the hallways etc). I dont blame them for defending what they have, but when the economy sucks like it does, expecting the taxpayer to fund their salaries and their insurance/pension plans doesnt endear them to anyone. Oh, I am no fan of the teachers union at all. Not one bit. But the right thing to do is play hardball and make them contribute more to their pensions and healthcare (I am guessing salaries mostly are at market rates, but there can be distortions due to people who have been skating along for a long time without adding much value) but don't take away their collective bargaining rights. No one said the negotiations were going to be easy, but it needs to be done. And if teachers start doing the sorts of things you mentioned, just because they have to contribute a bit more, they will ultimately lose the PR war. In Wisconsin Walker has overreached and basically re-ignited the entire union movement. A battle he should have won, he has managed to lose. He certainly has in my eyes, especially with the sweetheart deals for police and firefighters. Surely you agree that is wrong? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 18, 2011, 01:54:42 PM Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero? Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan? That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm. Everyone in private industry should get that deal. It should be mandated for them by law. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: bullmoose88 on February 18, 2011, 01:56:10 PM Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero? Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan? That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm. Easy to see why they're fighting this so hard. It's only become such a big deal due to the effort to take away collective bargaining rights. I bet cuts like this are happening in a lot of different places and there is not this much outrage. Cut benefits but don't take away people's rights. Pretty simple. I live in a school district where there is a battle going on between the school board and teachers union over having the teachers pay more for their benefits. The entry level salaries for teachers here is pretty decent, like 50 or 60k and I'd say most make at least 70k or more, and a significant portion are in the 90-100k range. Its been pretty nasty. The commonwealth hasn't done anything like Walker, and the teachers havent called in sick, but they're deliberately doing the minimum (not showing up to parent teacher nights, even stuff like not decorating the bulletin boards in the hallways etc). I dont blame them for defending what they have, but when the economy sucks like it does, expecting the taxpayer to fund their salaries and their insurance/pension plans doesnt endear them to anyone. Oh, I am no fan of the teachers union at all. Not one bit. But the right thing to do is play hardball and make them contribute more to their pensions and healthcare (I am guessing salaries mostly are at market rates, but there can be distortions due to people who have been skating along for a long time without adding much value) but don't take away their collective bargaining rights. No one said the negotiations were going to be easy, but it needs to be done. And if teachers start doing the sorts of things you mentioned, just because they have to contribute a bit more, they will ultimately lose the PR war. In Wisconsin Walker has overreached and basically re-ignited the entire union movement. A battle he should have won, he has managed to lose. He certainly has in my eyes, especially with the sweetheart deals for police and firefighters. Surely you agree that is wrong? Oh the selective union busting here is the major thing that irks me. Bust them all or bust none of them. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on February 18, 2011, 01:57:17 PM Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero? Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan? That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm. Plus having their union busted and collective bargaining rights taken away, while nothing happens to police and fire. I have less of an issue with them pushing cost cuts than with the existential battle picked by Walker--which, again, I'm not going to say he was wrong as a Republican to fight on. bingo. I'm no fan of public unions and the ridiculous pension system that they have but this protest isn't all about their salary cuts and changes to the benefits, it's about Walker essentially proposing to destroy the public unions. It's about Walker's absurd rhetoric against the unions. It's about the fact that Wisconsin doesn't even need to be making these cuts, if it wasn't for the GOP's tax breaks. It's about the general idea that less and less of the best and brightest will decide to become public workers because of the wage cuts and benefit reductions. Remember, teachers don't only become teachers out of altruism, they also do it to make a living. The same goes for all other public workers. Anyways these are standard Republican tactics for crushing unions and the working class. Create a big deficit by reducing taxes, then later getting angry about the budget deficit and calling for cuts in services and public worker pay. It happened at the federal level with Reagan and Bush. It's happening at the state level across the country. It's happening at the local count level as well. Now of course Democrats have their own budget problems and in many ways are as awful at the Republicans as managing the budget but at least they aren't as intellectually dishonest as Republicans. At least they don't campaign on lies as often and actually propose reforms to change systems as opposed to just making cuts. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 18, 2011, 01:59:50 PM The idea that we only pay the salaries of public employees, but that those of private employees are no concern of ours or are not in any way borne by us is quite mind bogglingly illogical to me, quite frankly. Why is it any concern of yours again as to what some private client of mine and I agree will be my billing rate? Why is it any concern of yours, or the public, whether we agree on $250 an hour, or $500 an hour? And why is it any concern of yours whether I make 200K per year, or 600K, if all paid by private clients? Because they're not 'private' at all, Torie. The public/private dichotomy is an utterly false one. You are being paid many times what teachers are paid because they State mandates that you be paid more, and empowers your clients to be aristocrats controlling segments of the economy. This is all absolute State control, its just masquerading as a 'market'. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 18, 2011, 02:02:11 PM Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero? Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan? That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm. It's actually not that bad at all,and I bet similar measures are being put forth in many different states. The problem isn't with that though, it's with the union busting portions of the bill. What does not requiring workers to pay union dues have to do with the budget? That part of the agenda is to 1) defund unions' campaign war chests, and 2) allow county and municipal executives to adjust public employee compensation and not be trapped by a contract. Walker was Milwaukee County executive, and to balance the books, he just had to fire people, rather than push their compensation down a bit closer to market. He didn't like that. And yes, I think it is probably a dubious endeavor to do what he is doing. It would be better to just create a new world order when the contract ends, and then the teachers or whomever can do what they are doing now, call in sick, strike, get Obama involved, unleash the DNC, and so forth. This passion play needs to be gone through either way. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Sbane on February 18, 2011, 02:07:45 PM Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero? Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan? That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm. It's actually not that bad at all,and I bet similar measures are being put forth in many different states. The problem isn't with that though, it's with the union busting portions of the bill. What does not requiring workers to pay union dues have to do with the budget? It would be better to just create a new world order when the contract ends, and then the teachers or whomever can do what they are doing now, call in sick, strike, get Obama involved, unleash the DNC, and so forth. This passion play needs to be gone through either way. This is what needs to be done. This is what should have been done when the contracts were negotiated in the first place. If this strike and protest was going on just because of increased contributions, they would lose. They might still lose of course, but Republicans just got hurt again amongst the working class. That was not necessary. You can argue Walker was indeed fighting for the working class, so they don't have to pay more and more for teacher's salaries, but by using these tactics he basically declared war on union guys everywhere and in every industry. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on February 18, 2011, 02:18:03 PM Democrats in the Wisconsin state legislature actually proposed a series of amendments to strike out the parts of the bill that would get rid of the parts of the bill that got rid of the right to collectively bargain and form unions. Republicans didn't budge. That's what makes this so different from say the Health Care bill or FinReg. Sure when those bills were proposed they looked like they were going to rape Republican interest groups and were totally against GOP philosophy. Yet the Democrats allowed their amendments to go forward. Many Democrats voted for their amendments. They compromised. Naturally the GOP still put forward all roadblocks against both bills because they're bastards.
The GOP isn't doing that. They just want to destroy a group that works on behalf of the working class. This has nothing to do with the budget or good public policy. That's why the state legislature is revolting and doing something that I consider to be morally dubious. But what the Republicans are doing is absolutely wrong and deceitful so I support them. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 02:33:12 PM I agree with most of the guys here. Very few people would disagree with the reforms Torie mentioned. But the rest of Walker's bill and the exception of his political cronies from it are so odious that it's hard not to justify the public workers' outrage.
That part of the agenda is to 1) defund unions' campaign war chests, And why should a union's war chest be defunded while private companies that bid for state contracts can spend freely to elect their buddies to positions of power? If somebody wants clean elections and politicians that aren't beholden to special interests, he should bar both of them from raising and spending money for electoral reasons. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 18, 2011, 02:45:47 PM I agree with most of the guys here. Very few people would disagree with the reforms Torie mentioned. But the rest of Walker's bill and the exception of his political cronies from it are so odious that it's hard not to justify the public workers' outrage. That part of the agenda is to 1) defund unions' campaign war chests, And why should a union's war chest be defunded while private companies that bid for state contracts can spend freely to elect their buddies to positions of power? If somebody wants clean elections and politicians that aren't beholden to special interests, he should bar both of them from raising and spending money for electoral reasons. Partisan advantage. No, it can't be defended, just like exempting public safety employees cannot be defended. Not everything the GOP does is defensible. Who knew? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 02:57:34 PM I agree with most of the guys here. Very few people would disagree with the reforms Torie mentioned. But the rest of Walker's bill and the exception of his political cronies from it are so odious that it's hard not to justify the public workers' outrage. That part of the agenda is to 1) defund unions' campaign war chests, And why should a union's war chest be defunded while private companies that bid for state contracts can spend freely to elect their buddies to positions of power? If somebody wants clean elections and politicians that aren't beholden to special interests, he should bar both of them from raising and spending money for electoral reasons. Partisan advantage. No, it can't be defended, just like exempting public safety employees cannot be defended. Not everything the GOP does is defensible. Who knew? The problem is that people like you defend it. If krazen and wormy did it, nobody would bother. But we've come to expect better than that from YOU. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on February 18, 2011, 03:17:50 PM I agree with most of the guys here. Very few people would disagree with the reforms Torie mentioned. But the rest of Walker's bill and the exception of his political cronies from it are so odious that it's hard not to justify the public workers' outrage. That part of the agenda is to 1) defund unions' campaign war chests, And why should a union's war chest be defunded while private companies that bid for state contracts can spend freely to elect their buddies to positions of power? If somebody wants clean elections and politicians that aren't beholden to special interests, he should bar both of them from raising and spending money for electoral reasons. Partisan advantage. No, it can't be defended, just like exempting public safety employees cannot be defended. Not everything the GOP does is defensible. Who knew? The problem is that people like you defend it. If krazen and wormy did it, nobody would bother. But we've come to expect better than that from YOU. Yeah Torie, I'm kind of disappointed in you. Your hatred of unions blinds you from the fact that this is a gross partisan powergrab that would cascade to other states if it was passed. For example my state wants to take away the collective bargaining rights of teachers now and replace teachers with laptops. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 03:30:30 PM I'd also like to know if this is true:
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wi_house_dems_warn_gov_walker_not_to_cross_packers.php?ref=fpb (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wi_house_dems_warn_gov_walker_not_to_cross_packers.php?ref=fpb) ... The reason state workers are so outraged by Walker's actions, Kind said, is because they spent all last year negotiating and making $100 million in concessions with then-Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle only to have Republicans state legislators kill that bill then have a new governor come in and deny their negotiating rights. "[Walker] didn't even come back and sit down with them," Kind told TPM. "Public employees are willing to contribute their pound of flesh. He wasn't even willing to talk to the teacher unions despite 17 separate requests from them for meetings with him." (snip) Granted, many here will disregard what Kind said because he is a Democrat. But if his assertions prove to be true then the case against Walker will be especially damning. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 18, 2011, 04:38:36 PM I'd also like to know if this is true: http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wi_house_dems_warn_gov_walker_not_to_cross_packers.php?ref=fpb (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wi_house_dems_warn_gov_walker_not_to_cross_packers.php?ref=fpb) ... The reason state workers are so outraged by Walker's actions, Kind said, is because they spent all last year negotiating and making $100 million in concessions with then-Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle only to have Republicans state legislators kill that bill then have a new governor come in and deny their negotiating rights. "[Walker] didn't even come back and sit down with them," Kind told TPM. "Public employees are willing to contribute their pound of flesh. He wasn't even willing to talk to the teacher unions despite 17 separate requests from them for meetings with him." (snip) Granted, many here will disregard what Kind said because he is a Democrat. But if his assertions prove to be true then the case against Walker will be especially damning. Nope, its your typical tripe. Lame duck governor Doyle tried to ram through contracts in a lame duck Senate Session before the shellacked Democrats left office. Unfortunately, 2 patriotic Senate Democrats gagged at the idea and the contracts were voted down. There was no Republican legislature until this year. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 18, 2011, 04:40:54 PM I'm sympathetic to this viewpoint. Here's the thing that gets me, though. You say this issue has nothing to do with the budget. Yet the outcome of this battle will surely impact the budget, not only in Wisconsin but in many other states, and not only this year but for many years to come. I mean, when does it become about the budget? We've been putting off the budget discussion for 10 years, which is why we're in this mess to begin with. In Washington, they're not seriously discussing it either. I demand to have the budget discussion. And since no one is giving it to me, I want to take it where-ever I can get it, including this union-busting bill. In other words, I'm not buying px75's bullsh**t. Even the Ezra Klein blog post makes no refutation of the $2 billion-$3 billion deficit claim. So the cuts have to come somewhere. Where do you think they should come? Of course not. The idea is to lie and pretend that this action is about the last couple months of this year's budget, when its actually about the next 2 years worth of budgets and red ink. Doyle unfortunately expanded government health care for the poor during his tenure and blew through any sort of cash balance he could get his hands on, such as the transportation and medical malpractice funds. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Badger on February 18, 2011, 04:45:36 PM We call it "freedom." Maybe you've heard of it. It's what our Founders fought for. The Founders believed in the 'freedom' to abuse collective bargaining to abuse the taxpayer? Yes, and the collective bargaining has been so "abused" that they're going to essentially abolish it for public employees. "Freedom". BTW, your assessment of public sector employees and pensioners as "upper income" is idelogical and ignorant rather than pragmatic or remotely accurate. Grossly so actually. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Badger on February 18, 2011, 04:49:25 PM So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS? You make more than them and are not fired. Mostly because there's no money to pay them. Yes, God forbid we consider raising income taxes on the very highest 1% earners and estate of multi-millionaires to balance the budget rather than cutting the income of middle class teachers, police and state employees. Please spare us trying to mask an ideologically based assault on collective bargaining as "fiscal responsibility". Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 18, 2011, 04:55:45 PM Yes, and the collective bargaining has been so "abused" that they're going to essentially abolish it for public employees. "Freedom". BTW, your assessment of public sector employees and pensioners as "upper income" is idelogical and ignorant rather than pragmatic or remotely accurate. Grossly so actually. Nothing new. Public sector workers are expressly excluded from the Wagner act, and other states have done so. Wisconsin is just late to the party. Edit: I might add, there are provisions in the law to allow unions to continue to plunder the taxpayer. They can get as much salary as they choose when it passes a referendum. For some reason, leftists have a lot less faith in the people now...... Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 04:58:04 PM Congratulations krazey! You've just become the sole member of a very special club: my ignore list.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Badger on February 18, 2011, 05:00:16 PM Yes, and the collective bargaining has been so "abused" that they're going to essentially abolish it for public employees. "Freedom". BTW, your assessment of public sector employees and pensioners as "upper income" is idelogical and ignorant rather than pragmatic or remotely accurate. Grossly so actually. Nothing new. Public sector workers are expressly excluded from the Wagner act, and other states have done so. Wisconsin is just late to the party. Edit: I might add, there are provisions in the law to allow unions to continue to plunder the taxpayer. They can get as much salary as they choose when it passes a referendum. For some reason, leftists have a lot less faith in the people now...... Wisconsin has had in for about 50 years. This is a power grab pure and simple. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 18, 2011, 05:02:31 PM Yes, and the collective bargaining has been so "abused" that they're going to essentially abolish it for public employees. "Freedom". BTW, your assessment of public sector employees and pensioners as "upper income" is idelogical and ignorant rather than pragmatic or remotely accurate. Grossly so actually. Nothing new. Public sector workers are expressly excluded from the Wagner act, and other states have done so. Wisconsin is just late to the party. Edit: I might add, there are provisions in the law to allow unions to continue to plunder the taxpayer. They can get as much salary as they choose when it passes a referendum. For some reason, leftists have a lot less faith in the people now...... Wisconsin has had in for about 50 years. This is a power grab pure and simple. The bolded is exactly what the formation of public unions was in the first place, as evidenced by this chart and the rapid increase in teachers collecting from the trough for that same 50 years. http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_064.asp Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 18, 2011, 05:07:06 PM Yes, and the collective bargaining has been so "abused" that they're going to essentially abolish it for public employees. "Freedom". BTW, your assessment of public sector employees and pensioners as "upper income" is idelogical and ignorant rather than pragmatic or remotely accurate. Grossly so actually. Nothing new. Public sector workers are expressly excluded from the Wagner act, and other states have done so. Wisconsin is just late to the party. Edit: I might add, there are provisions in the law to allow unions to continue to plunder the taxpayer. They can get as much salary as they choose when it passes a referendum. For some reason, leftists have a lot less faith in the people now...... Wisconsin has had in for about 50 years. This is a power grab pure and simple. Badger, I have some friendly advice for you. () Seriously dude, don't stoop to the level of a Glenn Beck knock-off. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Beet on February 18, 2011, 05:33:53 PM I'm sympathetic to this viewpoint. Here's the thing that gets me, though. You say this issue has nothing to do with the budget. Yet the outcome of this battle will surely impact the budget, not only in Wisconsin but in many other states, and not only this year but for many years to come. I mean, when does it become about the budget? We've been putting off the budget discussion for 10 years, which is why we're in this mess to begin with. In Washington, they're not seriously discussing it either. I demand to have the budget discussion. And since no one is giving it to me, I want to take it where-ever I can get it, including this union-busting bill. In other words, I'm not buying px75's bullsh**t. Even the Ezra Klein blog post makes no refutation of the $2 billion-$3 billion deficit claim. So the cuts have to come somewhere. Where do you think they should come? Of course not. The idea is to lie and pretend that this action is about the last couple months of this year's budget, when its actually about the next 2 years worth of budgets and red ink. Doyle unfortunately expanded government health care for the poor during his tenure and blew through any sort of cash balance he could get his hands on, such as the transportation and medical malpractice funds. Yeah, I'm very disappointed that the Democrats here try to pretend as if Wisconsin has no budget problems and need no cuts. There are legitimate objections to what Walker's doing which have been brought up, so the bald faced lies are unnecessary. Face reality people. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: opebo on February 18, 2011, 05:43:32 PM ... I really don't see why do people that spend workdays picking their noses and surfing the interwebz need to unionize anyway. The rich aren't unionized, fellows; as you point out they don't need to be. We're discussing public servants here. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 18, 2011, 05:44:53 PM The teacher's have no contract? That is what I infer when krazen said that the Dems attempt to force one through in the lame duck session was killed. In which event, why is it necessary to pass this law at all? Just tell the unions what you are willing to pay (looking at the whole compensation package, including pensions), and that you won't go any higher. Period. End of story. That takes this union busting card entirely off the table. It becomes solely a money card, and what I care about is money.
Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Torie on February 18, 2011, 05:45:40 PM ... I really don't see why do people that spend workdays picking their noses and surfing the interwebz need to unionize anyway. The rich aren't unionized, fellows; as you point out they don't need to be. We're discussing public servants here. How about major league baseball players? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on February 18, 2011, 05:45:51 PM The teacher's have no contract? That is what I infer when krazen said that the Dems attempt to force one through in the lame duck session was killed. In which event, why is it necessary to pass this law at all? Just tell the unions what you are willing to pay (looking at the whole compensation package, including pensions), and that you won't go any higher. Period. End of story. That takes this union busting card entirely off the table. It becomes solely a money card, and what I care about is money. Torie returns to sanity, good. :P For a second there I seriously thought that you were arguing for the busting of the unions. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: anvi on February 18, 2011, 05:50:21 PM Just some sundry info about public teacher compensation in Wisconsin.
The average public school teacher salary in Wisconsin clocks in at just over $51,000 a year, which ranks 20th in the U.S. More specifically, preschool teachers make an average of $23,000 per year, elementary school teachers $51,000 and secondary school teachers just under $50,000. Secondary school teacher pay provides a good example of the average range of salary depending on experience; entry level teachers in secondary school make over $30,000 a year and those close to retirement make an average of just under $70,000. While starting public school teacher salaries in Wisconsin are low, they enjoy a rather steep "climb" rate. What Torie writes about the pension and health care contributions being required by Governor Walker is correct; teachers are being asked to contribute 5.8% of their salary to their pensions and 12.6% to their health care plans. These amounts are increases from current levels of 0% teacher contributions. In Wisconson, for every dollar spent on salary, an additional 33 cents is spent on benefits, which ranks it at 8th highest in the country according to this measure. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on February 18, 2011, 05:53:22 PM Does anyone have any data on Wisconsin's debt/Wisconsin's debt to GDP ratio? Every site I've been to looks to either exaggerate data or be for teabaggers and all of them show different numbers. Forbes has a good interactive site that shows tax-supported debt, debt to GDP ratios etc but it's a year old.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 18, 2011, 06:09:17 PM I seriously hope that these teachers have their pay docked and are disciplined... calling in sick when you're not really sick is unnacceptable. If I did that 3 days in a row and didn't bring in a doctor's note, I'd be fired.
Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: phk on February 18, 2011, 06:19:27 PM ... I really don't see why do people that spend workdays picking their noses and surfing the interwebz need to unionize anyway. The rich aren't unionized, fellows; as you point out they don't need to be. We're discussing public servants here. How about major league baseball players? Or movie stars. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: The Dowager Mod on February 18, 2011, 06:21:21 PM I passed up a lucrative proffesorship at Marquette because i wanted to help public school kids, nice to be demonized for it.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Insula Dei on February 18, 2011, 06:28:04 PM I passed up a lucrative proffesorship at Marquette because i wanted to help public school kids, nice to be demonized for it. Be silent, you wicked Union thug! Isn't it enough that you're stealing our future and that of our kids with your unreasonable demands? Isn't it enough for you to have the joy of thinking about all those banker's children growing up in an America impoverished by the likes of you? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 18, 2011, 06:33:00 PM The teacher's have no contract? That is what I infer when krazen said that the Dems attempt to force one through in the lame duck session was killed. In which event, why is it necessary to pass this law at all? Just tell the unions what you are willing to pay (looking at the whole compensation package, including pensions), and that you won't go any higher. Period. End of story. That takes this union busting card entirely off the table. It becomes solely a money card, and what I care about is money. That contract had to do with state union workers; I don't think it included teachers. Basically, state workers didn't have a contract for the 2009-2011 cycle. This was fine until November 2010, when all of a sudden it wasn't (I wonder why). The Democrats bailed a drunk driver out of jail to ratify the newly signed contracts in December, which passed by 1 vote in the Assembly. But they failed in the Senate when former Senate Democratic Leader Russell Decker voted them down. Democrats promptly kicked him out of leadership, and unions started threatening him and calling him names. It's all posted somewhere in this thread. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Nym90 on February 18, 2011, 08:38:04 PM Wow. I actually respect something about the Packers. :o Well if nothing else, I would think you'd also like the fact that they are owned by their fans as opposed to by one wealthy owner or family who can do as he/she/they please with the team like every other major North American sports franchise. When you think about it in fact, the NFL is pretty damn socialist, having a hard salary cap and all, which makes skill in drafting and evaluating players and good coaching the keys to success, not the amount of money spent. And scheduling, the draft, etc. are also all designed to promote parity, again pretty left wing.... I'm kinda surprised there isn't more opposition to that. Maybe the fact that the NFL also happens to be far and away more popular than other North American sports leagues that have a looser or non existent salary cap (i.e., it works)? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 18, 2011, 09:13:15 PM The teacher's have no contract? That is what I infer when krazen said that the Dems attempt to force one through in the lame duck session was killed. In which event, why is it necessary to pass this law at all? Just tell the unions what you are willing to pay (looking at the whole compensation package, including pensions), and that you won't go any higher. Period. End of story. That takes this union busting card entirely off the table. It becomes solely a money card, and what I care about is money. That contract had to do with state union workers; I don't think it included teachers. Basically, state workers didn't have a contract for the 2009-2011 cycle. This was fine until November 2010, when all of a sudden it wasn't (I wonder why). The Democrats bailed a drunk driver out of jail to ratify the newly signed contracts in December, which passed by 1 vote in the Assembly. But they failed in the Senate when former Senate Democratic Leader Russell Decker voted them down. Democrats promptly kicked him out of leadership, and unions started threatening him and calling him names. It's all posted somewhere in this thread. So help me out. What the f'ck is the legislature voting on then? The terms of the contract? And is the concept of "union busting" here simply that the state won't talk to the union, because it is a take it or leave it deal (but really not union busting at all), or is more in play here? If nothing more is play, meet with the union, drop off the terms, say they are not subject to change (the terms where what the governor ran on, and won apparently), and wish them a nice day - and leave. This thread is kind of a mess really, and I am not sure that I didn't add to the disarray! :) Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Rowan on February 18, 2011, 09:14:49 PM They currently don't contribute anything to their pension at all?? How is that sustainable at all for the state?
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 18, 2011, 09:28:14 PM So help me out. What the f'ck is the legislature voting on then? The terms of the contract? And is the concept of "union busting" here simply that the state won't talk to the union, because it is a take it or leave it deal (but really not union busting at all), or is more in play here? If nothing more is play, meet with the union, drop off the terms, say they are not subject to change (the terms where what the governor ran on, and won apparently), and wish them a nice day - and leave. This thread is kind of a mess really, and I am not sure that I didn't add to the disarray! :) I believe its a set of laws that prevent any sort of collective bargaining for benefits at the state or local level, as well as a somewhat separate fiscal measure to increase state worker contributions to their pensions and healthcare. It also makes union dues non-tax deductible, thus raising revenues (yes, a republican is RAISING taxes!), and unions across all levels would have to hold an annual vote amongst their members and get a majority to retain their union status. Unions would still be allowed to bargain over wages. Any wage increase over the CPI would be put to a referendum to the voters; liberals REALLY don't like that idea. Overall, its not unfair to say that this will break state unions. I'm ok with that. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: The Dowager Mod on February 18, 2011, 09:33:54 PM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc4TXdPxUcE&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc4TXdPxUcE&feature=player_embedded)
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 18, 2011, 09:35:57 PM The union can chat about wages, but not benefits? Do they go to jail, if they bring up benefits in a meeting or what? That seems to make zero sense to me. It seems inane. Am I still missing something? The CPI cap seems inane too. Suppose you need to raise compensation more for some to attract persons who can walk and chew gum at the same time? Each time you need do to that, we need a referendum on the ballot do we? Heck, maybe there would be six of such referenda on each ballot, since presumably one size does not fit all. Is that any way to run a railroad?
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 18, 2011, 09:37:03 PM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc4TXdPxUcE&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc4TXdPxUcE&feature=player_embedded) Ah yes, the firefighters. I know them well. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 18, 2011, 09:42:17 PM The union can chat about wages, but not benefits? Do they go to jail, if they bring up benefits in a meeting or what? That seems to make zero sense to me. It seems inane. Am I still missing something? The CPI cap seems inane too. Suppose you need to raise compensation more for some to attract persons who can walk and chew gum at the same time? Each time you need do to that, we need a referendum on the ballot do we? Heck, maybe there would be six of such referenda on each ballot, since presumably one size does not fit all. Is that any way to run a railroad? Seems to me the bolded can be done with individual employees; just not with a collective union. They should really just duplicate the Virginia statute and outlaw the process. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: ○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└ on February 18, 2011, 09:44:40 PM Amazing, this all in a state that has a surplus.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Torie on February 18, 2011, 09:46:39 PM Amazing, this all in a state that has a surplus. The media says it is minus 3.5 billion. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: ○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└ on February 18, 2011, 09:51:30 PM Amazing, this all in a state that has a surplus. The media says it is minus 3.5 billion. Where the hell did they get those numbers? Anyways: Quote In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million. To the extent that there is an imbalance -- Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January. If the Legislature were simply to rescind Walker’s new spending schemes -- or delay their implementation until they are offset by fresh revenues -- the “crisis” would not exist. http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 18, 2011, 09:52:32 PM Amazing, this all in a state that has a surplus. The media says it is minus 3.5 billion. Where the hell did they get those numbers? Anyways: Quote In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million. To the extent that there is an imbalance -- Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January. If the Legislature were simply to rescind Walker’s new spending schemes -- or delay their implementation until they are offset by fresh revenues -- the “crisis” would not exist. http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html The so called 'surplus' is the current fiscal year (2010). The deficit is for fiscal year 2011 and 2012 under existing policy, which obviously Walker is changing. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Torie on February 18, 2011, 10:03:06 PM ... I really don't see why do people that spend workdays picking their noses and surfing the interwebz need to unionize anyway. The rich aren't unionized, fellows; as you point out they don't need to be. We're discussing public servants here. How about major league baseball players? Or movie stars. Or "fire fighters aka 90% of the time paramedic parasites" in all too many zip codes in CA. Making 300K-600K is "rich" isn't it? Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: krazen1211 on February 18, 2011, 10:04:38 PM What does taking away the rights of unions to collect dues have to do with the deficit? What does having to have a yearly vote to keep your union together have to do with the deficit? This moron overreached and it's sad Republicans here can't see that. I also don't like public employee unions, but this bill goes above and beyond just taking away plush benefits from them. Keep the unions in line, but don't take away people's rights to form them. Removing the tax-deductibility of dues raises revenue and lowers the deficit. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: ○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└ on February 18, 2011, 10:08:14 PM ... I really don't see why do people that spend workdays picking their noses and surfing the interwebz need to unionize anyway. The rich aren't unionized, fellows; as you point out they don't need to be. We're discussing public servants here. How about major league baseball players? Or movie stars. Or "fire fighters aka 90% of the time paramedic parasites" in all too many zip codes in CA. Making 300K-600K is "rich" isn't it? Walker isn't going after those. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Lief 🗽 on February 18, 2011, 10:11:14 PM Here's a pretty clear run-down of what's actually being proposed by the governor: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2011/02/what_is_actually_being_propose.html
Quote Walker proposes that the right to collectively bargain be taken away from most -- but not all -- state and local workers. Who's left out? "Local law enforcement and fire employees, and state troopers and inspectors would be exempt from these changes." As Harold Meyerson notes, these are also the unions that happened to be more supportive of Walker in the last election. Funny, that. Walker tries to sell the change in collective bargaining as modest. "State and local employees could continue to bargain for base pay, they would not be able to bargain over other compensation measures." But that's not really true. Read down a bit further and you'll find that "total wage increases could not exceed a cap based on the consumer price index (CPI) unless approved by referendum." In other words, they couldn't bargain for wages to rise faster than inflation. So, in reality, they can't bargain for wages and they can't bargain over other forms of compensation. They just can't bargain. The proposal doesn't stop there, though. "Contracts would be limited to one year and wages would be frozen until the new contract is settled. Collective bargaining units are required to take annual votes to maintain certification as a union. Employers would be prohibited from collecting union dues and members of collective bargaining units would not be required to pay dues." These rules have nothing to do with pension costs or even bargaining. They're just about weakening unions: They make it harder for unions to collect dues from members, to negotiate stable contracts or to survive a bad year. The best way to understand Walker's proposal is as a multi-part attack on the state's labor unions. In part one, their ability to bargain benefits for their members is reduced. In part two, their ability to collect dues, and thus spend money organizing members or lobbying the legislature, is undercut. And in part three, workers have to vote the union back into existence every single year. Put it all together and it looks like this: Wisconsin's unions can't deliver value to their members, they're deprived of the resources to change the rules so they can start delivering value to their members again, and because of that, their members eventually give in to employer pressure and shut the union down in one of the annual certification elections. So ultimately this bill has nothing to do with the budget deficit (which is probably entirely Walker's fault for passing tax cuts for the rich and a healthcare bill pushed by conservative), and really just the Republicans use a (probably made-up) crisis to destroy public unions in the state. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Lief 🗽 on February 18, 2011, 10:51:44 PM Oh, and Russ Feingold apparently joined the protest today: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/18/russ-feingold-wisconsin-protests_n_825325.html
;D Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 18, 2011, 10:57:50 PM Here's a pretty clear run-down of what's actually being proposed by the governor: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2011/02/what_is_actually_being_propose.html Quote Walker proposes that the right to collectively bargain be taken away from most -- but not all -- state and local workers. Who's left out? "Local law enforcement and fire employees, and state troopers and inspectors would be exempt from these changes." As Harold Meyerson notes, these are also the unions that happened to be more supportive of Walker in the last election. Funny, that. Walker tries to sell the change in collective bargaining as modest. "State and local employees could continue to bargain for base pay, they would not be able to bargain over other compensation measures." But that's not really true. Read down a bit further and you'll find that "total wage increases could not exceed a cap based on the consumer price index (CPI) unless approved by referendum." In other words, they couldn't bargain for wages to rise faster than inflation. So, in reality, they can't bargain for wages and they can't bargain over other forms of compensation. They just can't bargain. The proposal doesn't stop there, though. "Contracts would be limited to one year and wages would be frozen until the new contract is settled. Collective bargaining units are required to take annual votes to maintain certification as a union. Employers would be prohibited from collecting union dues and members of collective bargaining units would not be required to pay dues." These rules have nothing to do with pension costs or even bargaining. They're just about weakening unions: They make it harder for unions to collect dues from members, to negotiate stable contracts or to survive a bad year. The best way to understand Walker's proposal is as a multi-part attack on the state's labor unions. In part one, their ability to bargain benefits for their members is reduced. In part two, their ability to collect dues, and thus spend money organizing members or lobbying the legislature, is undercut. And in part three, workers have to vote the union back into existence every single year. Put it all together and it looks like this: Wisconsin's unions can't deliver value to their members, they're deprived of the resources to change the rules so they can start delivering value to their members again, and because of that, their members eventually give in to employer pressure and shut the union down in one of the annual certification elections. So ultimately this bill has nothing to do with the budget deficit (which is probably entirely Walker's fault for passing tax cuts for the rich and a healthcare bill pushed by conservative), and really just the Republicans use a (probably made-up) crisis to destroy public unions in the state. Yet another liberal ignoring the 2011 and 2012 FY deficits... Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on February 18, 2011, 11:54:53 PM This thread is ridiculous. How many times are the two different fiscal cycles (with drastically different account balances) going to get conflated and mixed up before it is pounded into the thick skulls of our liberal friends, who are busy trying to pretend as if the progressive lala land of Wisconsin was in perfect condition financially until Scott "Hosni Hitler Mussolini" Walker got his groper nasties on the budget?
A tax credit for employement is an unnecessary tax cut for big business now? I thought unemployment was a big problem that Boehner was ignoring to handle abortion or Healthcare or whatever the latest complaint is from Pelosi? Is unemployment not a big issue now? Didn't Obama pass similar such tax credits in his various "jobs" bills? Measures which he will be damned sure to take credit for helping to turn the economy around. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on February 19, 2011, 12:22:09 AM wow, the Dems are forcing a losing hand. here's to hoping they keep upping the ante
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Tender Branson on February 19, 2011, 01:26:14 AM We Ask America Poll:
As you may know, Gov. Scott Walker has proposed a plan to limit the pay of government workers and teachers, increase their share of the cost of benefits, and strip some public-employ unions of much of their power. We’d like to know if APPROVE or DISAPPROVE of Gov. Walker’s plan. 43% Approve 52% Disapprove It was reported today that Democratic state senators have left the capitol in order to prevent a vote of Gov. Walker’s measures. Do you think that the Democratic state senators should return to the state capitol to vote on the issue? 56% Yes 36% No http://weaskamerica.com/2011/02/18/weirdness-in-wisconsin/ Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Franzl on February 19, 2011, 01:52:52 AM Wisconsin polarized as always.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Smash255 on February 19, 2011, 01:55:12 AM Amazing, this all in a state that has a surplus. The media says it is minus 3.5 billion. Where the hell did they get those numbers? Anyways: Quote In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million. To the extent that there is an imbalance -- Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January. If the Legislature were simply to rescind Walker’s new spending schemes -- or delay their implementation until they are offset by fresh revenues -- the “crisis” would not exist. http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html The so called 'surplus' is the current fiscal year (2010). The deficit is for fiscal year 2011 and 2012 under existing policy, which obviously Walker is changing. Walker's policies he put forth as soon as he took over made the deficit much worse. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 19, 2011, 02:35:17 AM Oh, and Russ Feingold apparently joined the protest today: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/18/russ-feingold-wisconsin-protests_n_825325.html ;D Russ Feingold is a good man. Never before have I seen such an honorable man in politics. While I disagree with him on most all of the issues, I take his presence here as a symbol that he truly agrees with the protestors. If I were a Wisconsin voter, I honestly don't know if I could vote for the Republican over him. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: King on February 19, 2011, 02:48:21 AM I've heard rumors that the ghost of Robert LaFollette, Sr. has decided to come back from the dead to stand outside the gate of the Governor's Mansion and taunt the guards.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 19, 2011, 03:07:31 AM I've heard rumors that the ghost of Robert LaFollette, Sr. has decided to come back from the dead to stand outside the gate of the Governor's Mansion and taunt the guards. Who's that LaFollette guy? Probably some Frenchie socialist that wants take away freedom from hard-working Amricuns. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on February 19, 2011, 03:08:24 AM I bet that the vast majority of Walker-supporters out there think Joe McCarthy was one of the state's best Senators.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 19, 2011, 06:56:39 AM wow, the Dems are forcing a losing hand. here's to hoping they keep upping the ante Its far from certain it is a losing hand, jmfcst. People are rapidly getting poorer, so leftism may have its day. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 19, 2011, 06:58:09 AM ... calling in sick when you're not really sick is unnacceptable. If I did that 3 days in a row and didn't bring in a doctor's note, I'd be fired. That's terrible. Where do you work, you poor man? Some warehouse dock? At my work I frequently leave for days at a time without telling anyone. Just show up when I have classes or a meeting. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: opebo on February 19, 2011, 06:59:51 AM ... I really don't see why do people that spend workdays picking their noses and surfing the interwebz need to unionize anyway. The rich aren't unionized, fellows; as you point out they don't need to be. We're discussing public servants here. How about major league baseball players? Or movie stars. Or "fire fighters aka 90% of the time paramedic parasites" in all too many zip codes in CA. Making 300K-600K is "rich" isn't it? In the first place, your just repeating fictions, but regardless, only if your income is sourced from owning are you a rich, Torie. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Torie on February 19, 2011, 09:16:21 AM Quote In the first place, your just repeating fictions I am kind of hurt Opebo that you think I am just making things up, but if you would like me to email you the City of Glendale, California payroll list of those making over 100K per year of more (it is in the hundreds), and how much they were paid exclusive of pensions and benefits for which you tack on another 75%, let me know. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Phony Moderate on February 19, 2011, 09:30:05 AM Good for them.
Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Ban my account ffs! on February 19, 2011, 09:53:34 AM Quote In the first place, your just repeating fictions I am kind of hurt Opebo that you think I am just making things up, but if you would like me to email you the City of Glendale, California payroll list of those making over 100K per year of more (it is in the hundreds), and how much exclusive of pensions and benefits for which you tack on another 75%, let me know. I don't know what kind of super firefighters you people have in California... but ours do all the same work for the low price of $54,999.99 per year. (Taxes not included)... Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Torie on February 19, 2011, 10:09:08 AM Quote In the first place, your just repeating fictions I am kind of hurt Opebo that you think I am just making things up, but if you would like me to email you the City of Glendale, California payroll list of those making over 100K per year of more (it is in the hundreds), and how much exclusive of pensions and benefits for which you tack on another 75%, let me know. I don't know what kind of super firefighters you people have in California... but ours do all the same work for the low price of $54,999.99 per year. (Taxes not included)... Overtime is part of it. They all call in sick (personal days) at the same time, so the place is "understaffed," and overtime needs to be paid. They take turns. They must have a spreadsheet to manage it all. Overtime is particularly toxic, because their bloated defined benefit plan compensation gets a steroidal boost from playing the overtime game. It is really quite a dirty little nest that they inhabit. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Gustaf on February 19, 2011, 10:26:06 AM Outside economists have estimated a large budget deficit over the next 3 years. http://www.lafollette.wisc.edu/publications/workingpapers/reschovsky2010-016.pdf Let me guess: they proposed a series of tax cuts to fix the deficit. Let me correct you: no they do not. They actually do not give a policy recommendation at all, but simply note that Wisconsin will have to raise taxes and/or cut spending while also noting that it seems likely that spending cuts will largely reduce services, since there is little room for efficiency gains. But I guess a troll post was much easier to make than actually looking at the link. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: memphis on February 19, 2011, 10:29:28 AM So, the same GOP crowd who spent all of last year screaming that you have to make six figures just to survive in CA and NY is now whining that police and firemen make six figures? Predictable...
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 19, 2011, 10:38:18 AM Walker's policies he put forth as soon as he took over made the deficit much worse. By 'much', you mean about 4% over the next 2 fiscal years? Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 19, 2011, 11:33:58 AM Outside economists have estimated a large budget deficit over the next 3 years. http://www.lafollette.wisc.edu/publications/workingpapers/reschovsky2010-016.pdf Let me guess: they proposed a series of tax cuts to fix the deficit. Let me correct you: no they do not. They actually do not give a policy recommendation at all, but simply note that Wisconsin will have to raise taxes and/or cut spending while also noting that it seems likely that spending cuts will largely reduce services, since there is little room for efficiency gains. But I guess a troll post was much easier to make than actually looking at the link. What's wrong with you man? If you fail to detect sarcasm that doesn't make someone a troll, more likely it means you're a humorless bore. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 19, 2011, 11:39:00 AM ... calling in sick when you're not really sick is unnacceptable. If I did that 3 days in a row and didn't bring in a doctor's note, I'd be fired. That's terrible. Where do you work, you poor man? Some warehouse dock? At my work I frequently leave for days at a time without telling anyone. Just show up when I have classes or a meeting. Food service department at a historical attraction. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Gustaf on February 19, 2011, 12:19:28 PM Outside economists have estimated a large budget deficit over the next 3 years. http://www.lafollette.wisc.edu/publications/workingpapers/reschovsky2010-016.pdf Let me guess: they proposed a series of tax cuts to fix the deficit. Let me correct you: no they do not. They actually do not give a policy recommendation at all, but simply note that Wisconsin will have to raise taxes and/or cut spending while also noting that it seems likely that spending cuts will largely reduce services, since there is little room for efficiency gains. But I guess a troll post was much easier to make than actually looking at the link. What's wrong with you man? If you fail to detect sarcasm that doesn't make someone a troll, more likely it means you're a humorless bore. I got the impression that you assumed he was citing Republicans and therefore was being sarcastic about Republicans always wanting tax cuts. I thought that was pretty sloppy. Regardless, you seem to usually respond to everything with hyperbole which isn't very constructive and this struck me as a good example. If there was something funny that I missed, my apologies though. I'm far from perfect, but I'm certainly not humourless. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: jimrtex on February 19, 2011, 12:49:00 PM In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million. (snip)_ Here is the document. Enjoy reading. http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf (http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf) Wisconsin requires that a general account balance of $65 million. So the projected net balance was $56 billion. But you apparently did not read Page 3, which noted the $153 million shortfall in Medicaid and $22 million in corrections budget just to get through June. You would also have known about those if you had read the fiscal note for the pending legislation. And you also ignore the $60 million that Wisconsin owes Minnesota, and the $200 million that Wisconsin illegally transferred from the Patients Compensation Fund in 2007-9. Read Page 2 Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: anvi on February 19, 2011, 12:56:13 PM I have no objection to the measures regarding increased pension and health plan contributions; the fact that teachers have contributed nothing up to now, and even under this measure still enjoy a very good deal compared to teachers in other states, really does put an unnecessarily heavy strain on the state budget. The CPI cap seems arbitrary and the ending of collective bargaining is extreme and unnecessary. The governor claims he wanted to get rid of collective bargaining because the process takes fifteen months, time the budget doesn't have to fix. But, as noted above, there are other ways around that.
The Wisconsin GOP has spent a lot of money, time and effort building up their organization in the last two years; they have huge majorities in the state legislature, they won the governorship, one U.S. Senate seat and two House seats. In the midterms, they got big turnarounds from younger voters and women as well as "independents." But shooting the moon like this is going to mobilize a lot of opposition in 2012 that otherwise may have been lukewarm. I guess abusing a mandate is just too great a temptation for any group of politicians, no matter which party they represent. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Beet on February 19, 2011, 12:57:14 PM So how much of an idiot is this governor? Now, I am certainly no fan of public employee unions and perhaps they are being coddled in Wisconsin, I am not sure. I have seen his proposals to increase the contributions workers make to their healthcare and pensions and I agree with that. But where things go awry is when he tries to take away collective bargaining rights from the employees. What does taking away the rights of unions to collect dues have to do with the deficit? What does having to have a yearly vote to keep your union together have to do with the deficit? This moron overreached and it's sad Republicans here can't see that. I also don't like public employee unions, but this bill goes above and beyond just taking away plush benefits from them. Keep the unions in line, but don't take away people's rights to form them. Right. Just take out that part and this bill would be fine. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 19, 2011, 12:58:18 PM In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million. (snip)_ Here is the document. Enjoy reading. http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf (http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf) Wisconsin requires that a general account balance of $65 million. So the projected net balance was $56 billion. But you apparently did not read Page 3, which noted the $153 million shortfall in Medicaid and $22 million in corrections budget just to get through June. You would also have known about those if you had read the fiscal note for the pending legislation. And you also ignore the $60 million that Wisconsin owes Minnesota, and the $200 million that Wisconsin illegally transferred from the Patients Compensation Fund in 2007-9. Read Page 2 So, the budget situation was so grim that Walker's first action was to cut taxes. Makes sense. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 19, 2011, 01:01:20 PM Food service department at a historical attraction. So how do you survive? And don't you find your poverty would tend to serve as an argument near-at-hand in favor of unions? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Beet on February 19, 2011, 01:02:52 PM In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million. (snip)_ Here is the document. Enjoy reading. http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf (http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf) Wisconsin requires that a general account balance of $65 million. So the projected net balance was $56 billion. But you apparently did not read Page 3, which noted the $153 million shortfall in Medicaid and $22 million in corrections budget just to get through June. You would also have known about those if you had read the fiscal note for the pending legislation. And you also ignore the $60 million that Wisconsin owes Minnesota, and the $200 million that Wisconsin illegally transferred from the Patients Compensation Fund in 2007-9. Read Page 2 That still doesn't get anywhere near the $3.6 billion that Walker is claiming. It's true that the state probably has a shortfall that large based on projected agency requests for future years, but that report is pretty misleading. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: opebo on February 19, 2011, 01:05:12 PM Overtime is part of it. They all call in sick (personal days) at the same time, so the place is "understaffed," and overtime needs to be paid. They take turns. They must have a spreadsheet to manage it all. Overtime is particularly toxic, because their bloated defined benefit plan compensation gets a steroidal boost from playing the overtime game. It is really quite a dirty little nest that they inhabit. Well its great that they can do that, Torie. Do you propose that no one may be allowed to be ill? Or that there be the same hourly pay for persons working over the 40 hour week? People died in the 1930s fighting for these (incredibly meager) rights.. I'd hate to see them go just because your class wants more golden toilet bowls. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Beet on February 19, 2011, 01:07:34 PM Overtime is part of it. They all call in sick (personal days) at the same time, so the place is "understaffed," and overtime needs to be paid. They take turns. They must have a spreadsheet to manage it all. Overtime is particularly toxic, because their bloated defined benefit plan compensation gets a steroidal boost from playing the overtime game. It is really quite a dirty little nest that they inhabit. Well its great that they can do that, Torie. Do you propose that no one may be allowed to be ill? Or that there be the same hourly pay for persons working over the 40 hour week? People died in the 1930s fighting for these (incredibly meager) rights.. I'd hate to see them go just because your class wants more golden toilet bowls. The people in the 1930s died for union rights in the private sector. Unfortunately they were undercut by Alabama, Arizona, Oklahoma and Texas. Wake me up when there's a UAW chapter striking at the Hyundai plant. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: jimrtex on February 19, 2011, 01:15:59 PM Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero? Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan? That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm. The tax cuts are on 2011 taxable income and don't come due until 2012. The major break is to apply the same deduction for Health Savings Accounts that the federal government provides. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: opebo on February 19, 2011, 01:16:43 PM The people in the 1930s died for union rights in the private sector. Unfortunately they were undercut by Alabama, Arizona, Oklahoma and Texas. Wake me up when there's a UAW chapter striking at the Hyundai plant. Actually with free trade with foreign countries the slave South is irrelevant. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Gustaf on February 19, 2011, 01:27:22 PM The people in the 1930s died for union rights in the private sector. Unfortunately they were undercut by Alabama, Arizona, Oklahoma and Texas. Wake me up when there's a UAW chapter striking at the Hyundai plant. Actually with free trade with foreign countries the slave South is irrelevant. Why should everyone else buy American when you're buying Thai? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: phk on February 19, 2011, 01:45:54 PM UPDATE: Madison Schools Go To Court To Get Teachers Back
Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on February 19, 2011, 02:30:15 PM Overtime is part of it. They all call in sick (personal days) at the same time, so the place is "understaffed," and overtime needs to be paid. They take turns. They must have a spreadsheet to manage it all. Overtime is particularly toxic, because their bloated defined benefit plan compensation gets a steroidal boost from playing the overtime game. It is really quite a dirty little nest that they inhabit. Well its great that they can do that, Torie. Do you propose that no one may be allowed to be ill? Or that there be the same hourly pay for persons working over the 40 hour week? People died in the 1930s fighting for these (incredibly meager) rights.. I'd hate to see them go just because your class wants more golden toilet bowls. The people in the 1930s died for union rights in the private sector. Unfortunately they were undercut by Alabama, Arizona, Oklahoma and Texas. Wake me up when there's a UAW chapter striking at the Hyundai plant. Which in turn is partially a result of the failure (or the circumstances of the failure) of the 1934 mill strike. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: jimrtex on February 19, 2011, 02:55:34 PM In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million. (snip)_ Here is the document. Enjoy reading. http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf (http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf) Wisconsin requires that a general account balance of $65 million. So the projected net balance was $56 billion. But you apparently did not read Page 3, which noted the $153 million shortfall in Medicaid and $22 million in corrections budget just to get through June. You would also have known about those if you had read the fiscal note for the pending legislation. And you also ignore the $60 million that Wisconsin owes Minnesota, and the $200 million that Wisconsin illegally transferred from the Patients Compensation Fund in 2007-9. Read Page 2 So, the budget situation was so grim that Walker's first action was to cut taxes. Makes sense. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: jimrtex on February 19, 2011, 04:17:02 PM In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million. (snip)_ Here is the document. Enjoy reading. http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf (http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf) Wisconsin requires that a general account balance of $65 million. So the projected net balance was $56 billion. But you apparently did not read Page 3, which noted the $153 million shortfall in Medicaid and $22 million in corrections budget just to get through June. You would also have known about those if you had read the fiscal note for the pending legislation. And you also ignore the $60 million that Wisconsin owes Minnesota, and the $200 million that Wisconsin illegally transferred from the Patients Compensation Fund in 2007-9. Read Page 2 That still doesn't get anywhere near the $3.6 billion that Walker is claiming. It's true that the state probably has a shortfall that large based on projected agency requests for future years, but that report is pretty misleading. The pending legislation does include the Medicaid and Corrections funding for the fiscal biennium that ends in June, though I think it is a bit less than the note Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: opebo on February 19, 2011, 04:59:57 PM The people in the 1930s died for union rights in the private sector. Unfortunately they were undercut by Alabama, Arizona, Oklahoma and Texas. Wake me up when there's a UAW chapter striking at the Hyundai plant. Actually with free trade with foreign countries the slave South is irrelevant. Why should everyone else buy American when you're buying Thai? because I relocated Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Gustaf on February 19, 2011, 05:04:51 PM The people in the 1930s died for union rights in the private sector. Unfortunately they were undercut by Alabama, Arizona, Oklahoma and Texas. Wake me up when there's a UAW chapter striking at the Hyundai plant. Actually with free trade with foreign countries the slave South is irrelevant. Why should everyone else buy American when you're buying Thai? because I relocated Then why shouldn't corporations be allowed to relocate their factories so as to allow them to buy cheap Thai labour as well? Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: opebo on February 19, 2011, 05:17:08 PM Why should everyone else buy American when you're buying Thai? because I relocated Then why shouldn't corporations be allowed to relocate their factories so as to allow them to buy cheap Thai labour as well? Because they propose to bring items back to the United States, obviously, Gustaf. If they wish to relocate and bring nothing back, as I do, then good luck to them. I'm not allowed to bring back prostitutes with me when I return to the Bad Place. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on February 19, 2011, 05:45:45 PM ()
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Beet on February 19, 2011, 06:11:31 PM In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million. (snip)_ Here is the document. Enjoy reading. http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf (http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf) Wisconsin requires that a general account balance of $65 million. So the projected net balance was $56 billion. But you apparently did not read Page 3, which noted the $153 million shortfall in Medicaid and $22 million in corrections budget just to get through June. You would also have known about those if you had read the fiscal note for the pending legislation. And you also ignore the $60 million that Wisconsin owes Minnesota, and the $200 million that Wisconsin illegally transferred from the Patients Compensation Fund in 2007-9. Read Page 2 That still doesn't get anywhere near the $3.6 billion that Walker is claiming. It's true that the state probably has a shortfall that large based on projected agency requests for future years, but that report is pretty misleading. The pending legislation does include the Medicaid and Corrections funding for the fiscal biennium that ends in June, though I think it is a bit less than the note Because Governor Walker claims that there is $3.6 billion multi-year deficit, and an at least $2 billion deficit has been backed up by multiple sources, yet the report neither mentions this figure nor explains how the 2010/2011 figures could be so different from the projections to 2013. Instead, they spend a great deal of time trying to predict national macroeconomic variables which don't necessarily have bearing on Wisconsin, nor are they the ones in the best position to make such predictions. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: phk on February 19, 2011, 06:40:25 PM Public sector unions are immoral and they should be abolished.
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Lief 🗽 on February 19, 2011, 10:25:38 PM This is great:
() Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on February 19, 2011, 10:27:07 PM Public sector unions are immoral and they should be abolished. You believe in morality now? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Marokai Backbeat on February 19, 2011, 11:38:33 PM This is great: () Actually really awesome and touching, in a way. Great message. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: John Dibble on February 19, 2011, 11:40:16 PM Just to throw in my two cents...
We do need to get rid of teachers' unions. They need to have so little power and influence that their existence would serve no point to anyone. A significant part of this would actually have to involve increasing teacher pay and benefits. With the pay/benefits increase there should be increased responsibility and standards for teachers, of course, so I would expect many current teachers to have to find new jobs under this model, but I imagine with the increased pay people with the right credentials would be more inclined to accept a job as a teacher than they currently would be. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Gustaf on February 20, 2011, 10:38:09 AM This is great: () Actually really awesome and touching, in a way. Great message. I think the battle of the Wisconsin middle class for more taxpayer money, noble as it may be, is hardly comparable to the battle of the Egyptian people for basic human rights. But that may be just me... Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: krazen1211 on February 20, 2011, 10:41:43 AM http://www.lakelandtimes.com/main.asp?SectionID=9&SubSectionID=9&ArticleID=11040
http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_0c7079a6-d642-11df-9ccd-001cc4c03286.html How Jim Doyle looted the transportation fund. In 2005, Doyle also said he was proud of the proposed raids on the transportation fund he was sending to the Legislature. "My budget transfers $250 million from the transportation fund to support our investment in schools and other key priorities," he said in his February 2005 budget address. "With such a large transportation budget, and so many pressing needs in our state, it's the only responsible thing to do." Some thought Doyle got a little too creative. In each of his budgets, he transferred money from the transportation fund for a total over the last seven years of $428.5 million, according to the Legislative Fiscal Bureau. The move angered road builders and local governments in particular. Doyle also transferred $200 million from the Wisconsin Injured Patients and Families Compensation Fund to the state’s general fund in the 2007-2009 budget. The fund is intended to cover money damages for victims of medical malpractice, including past and future medical expenses, and Doyle’s maneuver was challenged in court. The Wisconsin Supreme Court ruled in 2010 that transferring the money was illegal and ordered the state to repay it. This is part of what explains the large budget hole over the next biennium. As years went by, GOP resistance became more pronounced. It especially became marked after Doyle used his veto pen in 2005 to excavate $427 million out of the highway account. As researchers at the Wisconsin Taxpayers Alliance have stated, the governor used the so-called Frankenstein veto - in which he could cross out words and numbers to create a new sentence from two or more sentences - to pare a 752-word section to 20 words sanctioning the transfer of the $427 million to the general fund to be used education. Title: Re: 14 Lawmakers Flee Wisconsin, Blocking Walker's Union Busting Bill Post by: Roemerista on February 20, 2011, 10:55:23 AM So it is Democracy in action when democrats disagree with popular will and stop its fruition by denying the convening of the representative body, yet the very legal, and very time honored tradition of filibuster, by Republicans is seen as obstruction of progress. Thus only the majority will is only real when it fits into your little view of the world.
I would not doubt that it is a crime to cause the assembly to convene, so the question remains what sort of punishment is acceptable? For the record, I am pretty pro-union, but the rule of law should be absolute. Title: My take on the Scott Walker vs. Unions kerfuffle Post by: Inverted Things on February 20, 2011, 11:22:49 AM There are a lot of folks worried, and with good cause, about the effect that public union pensions and healthcare will have on local government. From a philosophical perspective, it is absolutely unfair to the unions to cut their benefits, since the previous generation of union members basically chose lower pay in exchange for better benefits. And the government acquiesced, as future money seemed easier to promise than present money.
Now, there's philosophical and there's pragmatic. Given the state of things, some governments are saying "Whoops! Can't give you what we promised." And it's not pleasant, but the fact of the situation is that unions probably do have to give some things up. (Some folks argue that public employee benefits should be cut to be on par with typical private employee benefits, as though it's an axiom that public employees shouldn't have anything better that private employees. I reject this axiom, as the only arguments in favor of this viewpoint are flavored heavily with sour-grapes.) According to everything I've read about this current situation, the unions were willing to talk about cutting benefits. Scott Walker and his friends in the legislature ignored them. Instead Scott Walker dictated how much their benefits could be cut, AND said that they would lose their collective bargaining rights, AND said that the National Guard would be ready for worker unrest. (By the way, it's illegal for teacher's unions in Wisconsin to strike; that's why the collective bargaining is so important to them.) (To translate this to a private sector situation, it seems this is rather like you going to your employer and saying "I understand our firm is having a tough time right now, and you may not be able to pay me what you agreed to. I'm willing to work with you. Can we talk?" And your employer responds "I've already decided to cut your pay by this much, and if you don't like it and try to quit I'll have some hit men bring you to work.") Now look: I know people lie. The unions might well have been saying they were willing to accept lower benefits merely for good PR. The fact is, though, that the unions extended on open hand (perhaps insincerely), and Walker didn't bother to shake it even to humor them. Instead he responded with a hard slap in the face. As for the aftermath... you get the union you deserve. Walker's slap in the face resulted in a teacher pseudo-strike. Good for them: remind the taxpayers that they have kids to take care of daily, which isn't cheap. And kudos to the democrats for running away. It prevents a more permanent poisoning of the union-government relationship, so that the unions might still be willing to negotiate in some good-faith. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 20, 2011, 12:27:36 PM While I'm not surprised that the public sector workers are woefully under paid compared to the 'private' sector, I am surprised at the salary levels in your chart. Most americans make around $12-15/hour, and most people I know with master's degrees wait at table.. so the chart seems a bit dubious. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Lief 🗽 on February 20, 2011, 02:07:23 PM This is great: () Actually really awesome and touching, in a way. Great message. I think the battle of the Wisconsin middle class for more taxpayer money, noble as it may be, is hardly comparable to the battle of the Egyptian people for basic human rights. But that may be just me... No one is protesting for more taxpayer money. And public employees pay just as much in taxes as everyone else. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on February 20, 2011, 02:21:07 PM While I'm not surprised that the public sector workers are woefully under paid compared to the 'private' sector, I am surprised at the salary levels in your chart. Most americans make around $12-15/hour, and most people I know with master's degrees wait at table.. so the chart seems a bit dubious. Opebo, did you read the chart? :P It says total compensation and not only that but it's for Wisconsin workers only. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown (merged threads) Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on February 20, 2011, 03:51:32 PM Damn snowstorm. :(
Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 20, 2011, 05:20:38 PM It says total compensation and not only that but it's for Wisconsin workers only. That's still enormous salary. Most people only get their $12-15/hour as total compensation, as they have no benefits. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: ○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└ on February 20, 2011, 05:35:35 PM While I'm not surprised that the public sector workers are woefully under paid compared to the 'private' sector, I am surprised at the salary levels in your chart. Most americans make around $12-15/hour, and most people I know with master's degrees wait at table.. so the chart seems a bit dubious. Those numbers for doctorates and professional degrees certainly seem inflated. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 20, 2011, 05:59:13 PM Food service department at a historical attraction. So how do you survive? And don't you find your poverty would tend to serve as an argument near-at-hand in favor of unions? I actually like making money, so I show up to work. And I'm not exactly in poverty. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: jimrtex on February 20, 2011, 07:04:51 PM Edit: fixed quoting.
Quote from: jimrtex How is the report misleading? It mainly is concentrated on 2010-1. It does make revenue projections for 2011-2013. The pending legislation does include the Medicaid and Corrections funding for the fiscal biennium that ends in June, though I think it is a bit less than the note Because Governor Walker claims that there is $3.6 billion multi-year deficit, and an at least $2 billion deficit has been backed up by multiple sources, yet the report neither mentions this figure nor explains how the 2010/2011 figures could be so different from the projections to 2013. Instead, they spend a great deal of time trying to predict national macroeconomic variables which don't necessarily have bearing on Wisconsin, nor are they the ones in the best position to make such predictions. The Legislative Fiscal Bureau does not have any power to appropriate funds. Their purpose is to produce information on which the legislature can make decisions. They can make projections on future revenues. They can provide information on the current budget, and highlight unfunded liabilities of the state, and whether the current appropriations will meet the actual needs of the state. How is this in any way misleading? Who is being mislead? BTW, the fiscal note on benefit cuts for government employees show a much larger savings for local governments than for the state government. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on February 20, 2011, 07:05:31 PM It says total compensation and not only that but it's for Wisconsin workers only. That's still enormous salary. Most people only get their $12-15/hour as total compensation, as they have no benefits. I think it includes insurance coverage as a benefit. The source of chart didn't include anything on methodology though so I can't say for sure. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: memphis on February 20, 2011, 07:07:12 PM Food service department at a historical attraction. So how do you survive? And don't you find your poverty would tend to serve as an argument near-at-hand in favor of unions? I actually like making money, so I show up to work. And I'm not exactly in poverty. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Smash255 on February 20, 2011, 07:24:28 PM Edit: fixed quoting. Quote from: jimrtex How is the report misleading? It mainly is concentrated on 2010-1. It does make revenue projections for 2011-2013. The pending legislation does include the Medicaid and Corrections funding for the fiscal biennium that ends in June, though I think it is a bit less than the note Because Governor Walker claims that there is $3.6 billion multi-year deficit, and an at least $2 billion deficit has been backed up by multiple sources, yet the report neither mentions this figure nor explains how the 2010/2011 figures could be so different from the projections to 2013. Instead, they spend a great deal of time trying to predict national macroeconomic variables which don't necessarily have bearing on Wisconsin, nor are they the ones in the best position to make such predictions. The Legislative Fiscal Bureau does not have any power to appropriate funds. Their purpose is to produce information on which the legislature can make decisions. They can make projections on future revenues. They can provide information on the current budget, and highlight unfunded liabilities of the state, and whether the current appropriations will meet the actual needs of the state. How is this in any way misleading? Who is being mislead? BTW, the fiscal note on benefit cuts for government employees show a much larger savings for local governments than for the state government. How much impact does the policies Walker put through when he first took office on the deficit? Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Beet on February 20, 2011, 07:45:33 PM Edit: fixed quoting. Quote from: jimrtex How is the report misleading? It mainly is concentrated on 2010-1. It does make revenue projections for 2011-2013. The pending legislation does include the Medicaid and Corrections funding for the fiscal biennium that ends in June, though I think it is a bit less than the note Because Governor Walker claims that there is $3.6 billion multi-year deficit, and an at least $2 billion deficit has been backed up by multiple sources, yet the report neither mentions this figure nor explains how the 2010/2011 figures could be so different from the projections to 2013. Instead, they spend a great deal of time trying to predict national macroeconomic variables which don't necessarily have bearing on Wisconsin, nor are they the ones in the best position to make such predictions. The Legislative Fiscal Bureau does not have any power to appropriate funds. Their purpose is to produce information on which the legislature can make decisions. They can make projections on future revenues. They can provide information on the current budget, and highlight unfunded liabilities of the state, and whether the current appropriations will meet the actual needs of the state. How is this in any way misleading? Who is being mislead? BTW, the fiscal note on benefit cuts for government employees show a much larger savings for local governments than for the state government. jimrtex, Have you been reading this thread? Or following this debate? MASSIVELY disparate numbers are being thrown around, this report is being cited with no context, and it is being used to make claims that are in no way addressed to the report. I already explained why it's misleading. Nothing in your first reply to me indicated an engagement with my explanation of why it's misleading, nor did anything in your second reply. You continue to make irrelevant statement that do not address my issues. I see no point in repeating myself for a third time. But if you look around the internet on the claims and counter claims and the links to this PDF, you should see. This PDF has become complete political fodder without any context whatsoever. It's a disaster. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 20, 2011, 08:21:38 PM How much impact does the policies Walker put through when he first took office on the deficit? Pretty minimally. The money that Jim Doyle borrowed from the medical malpractice fund (and Walker has to pay back) is a much larger quantity. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Inverted Things on February 20, 2011, 08:26:25 PM Looks to me like this is almost over: The troopers union has repudiated their endorsement of Walker, and the unions have said they'll agree to the cuts so long as they keep collective bargaining. Republicans really can't push things any further without looking vindictive.
Sources: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703498804576156964112764614.html http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/labor-pains-pro-walker-troopers-union-repudiates-endorsement-in-wisconsin.php Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on February 20, 2011, 10:10:59 PM The idea that we only pay the salaries of public employees, but that those of private employees are no concern of ours or are not in any way borne by us is quite mind bogglingly illogical to me, quite frankly. Why is it any concern of yours again as to what some private client of mine and I agree will be my billing rate? Why is it any concern of yours, or the public, whether we agree on $250 an hour, or $500 an hour? And why is it any concern of yours whether I make 200K per year, or 600K, if all paid by private clients? The way in which I would pay for it depends on who the client is (I'm not sure what type of attorney you are so please forgive my ignorance in that regard). If he's a representative of a corporation that sells products or services, the legal expenses are going to be paid for by higher prices. If he's paying you for a criminal defense, it doesn't have nearly as much direct impact, but increases in the going rate for such services does make them that much more inaccessible to those unable to pay the fees. I could go on, but again, there is no magic reason why public sector wages are the only ones we pay. But public sector wages are the only ones in which we cannot easily make individual decisions on whether to pay. If a private company pays more to its employees than another does, causing it to have have higher prices to generate the same profit, I can easily choose to buy from the other company. (Note, I may choose to pay the higher price if I perceive that the first company has higher quality as well.) If I live in Wisconsin, then to change my government service provider, I would have to move, which can be a costly endeavor, especially if I have already put down roots. Despite that, as the last few censuses have shown, people are generally leaving the higher cost states for less expensive ones. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Smash255 on February 21, 2011, 12:29:52 AM How much impact does the policies Walker put through when he first took office on the deficit? Pretty minimally. The money that Jim Doyle borrowed from the medical malpractice fund (and Walker has to pay back) is a much larger quantity. Actually no. More than 1/2 the deficit is caused by Walker's programs. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: krazen1211 on February 21, 2011, 12:43:57 AM Actually no. More than 1/2 the deficit is caused by Walker's programs. The ones that don't go into effect until next year? Jim Doyle conceded that there was a structural deficit last November. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on February 21, 2011, 12:48:36 AM The actual truth calculated by an outside economist, not the bs tossed by the liberals.
http://www.lafollette.wisc.edu/publications/workingpapers/reschovsky2010-016.pdf Projected deficit: Two-year total $2.877 billion In July, the state Supreme Court ruled that the state must return $200 million to the state’s Injured Patients and Families Compensation Fund that it had transferred to the General Fund in October 2007. The courts have not yet determined a schedule for the transfer. If part or all of the required transfer is scheduled during the next biennium, the state’s structural fiscal deficit could be as large as $3.1 billion. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: King on February 21, 2011, 01:07:19 AM Actually no. More than 1/2 the deficit is caused by Walker's programs. The ones that don't go into effect until next year? Isn't this whole fight about the excessive cuts for the massive deficit projected for next year? There's a deficit for this year, sure, but these would not have been necessary with Doyle's projected budget deficit. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Smash255 on February 21, 2011, 01:19:37 AM The actual truth calculated by an outside economist, not the bs tossed by the liberals. http://www.lafollette.wisc.edu/publications/workingpapers/reschovsky2010-016.pdf Projected deficit: Two-year total $2.877 billion In July, the state Supreme Court ruled that the state must return $200 million to the state’s Injured Patients and Families Compensation Fund that it had transferred to the General Fund in October 2007. The courts have not yet determined a schedule for the transfer. If part or all of the required transfer is scheduled during the next biennium, the state’s structural fiscal deficit could be as large as $3.1 billion. That report was from BEFORE Walker's new programs. The state does have a deficit problem, but Walker made the problem much worse and then decided to go after the Teachers and Unions to fix a budget problem, that he helped make much worse in the first place. Get rid of the programs that Walker pushed for when he took office that exploded the deficit even more. Perhaps include all the Unions and not just the ones Gov Walker does not like. Doing something like that would result in less extreme givebacks being forced from the Unions, the ability to keep the Collective Bargaining Rights, and perhaps yes some cutbacks, but something perhaps everyone can agree with. That is a better alternative to going full throttle for the Unions in order to help close a deficit you helped double. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: jimrtex on February 21, 2011, 01:20:52 AM How much impact does the policies Walker put through when he first took office on the deficit? One would extend the federal deduction for Health Savings Accounts to the Wisconsin income tax. Two would provide tax incentives for new hires and businesses that relocate to Wisconsin. The bill on relocating appears to be very tightly drawn - that no business have been done in the state in the previous 10 years. And the benefit must be directed at small business because it shows up as a revenue loss from the individual income tax rather than the corporate income tax. These will apply to tax year 2011, and show up in fiscal year 2012 when taxes are paid. IIRC. I think the fiscal note was around $100 million for the biennium. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on February 21, 2011, 01:25:20 AM The actual truth calculated by an outside economist, not the bs tossed by the liberals. http://www.lafollette.wisc.edu/publications/workingpapers/reschovsky2010-016.pdf Projected deficit: Two-year total $2.877 billion In July, the state Supreme Court ruled that the state must return $200 million to the state’s Injured Patients and Families Compensation Fund that it had transferred to the General Fund in October 2007. The courts have not yet determined a schedule for the transfer. If part or all of the required transfer is scheduled during the next biennium, the state’s structural fiscal deficit could be as large as $3.1 billion. That report was from BEFORE Walker's new programs. The state does have a deficit problem, but Walker made the problem much worse and then decided to go after the Teachers and Unions to fix a budget problem, that he helped make much worse in the first place. Get rid of the programs that Walker pushed for when he took office that exploded the deficit even more. Perhaps include all the Unions and not just the ones Gov Walker does not like. Doing something like that would result in less extreme givebacks being forced from the Unions, the ability to keep the Collective Bargaining Rights, and perhaps yes some cutbacks, but something perhaps everyone can agree with. That is a better alternative to going full throttle for the Unions in order to help close a deficit you helped double. What programs? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Smash255 on February 21, 2011, 01:29:38 AM The actual truth calculated by an outside economist, not the bs tossed by the liberals. http://www.lafollette.wisc.edu/publications/workingpapers/reschovsky2010-016.pdf Projected deficit: Two-year total $2.877 billion In July, the state Supreme Court ruled that the state must return $200 million to the state’s Injured Patients and Families Compensation Fund that it had transferred to the General Fund in October 2007. The courts have not yet determined a schedule for the transfer. If part or all of the required transfer is scheduled during the next biennium, the state’s structural fiscal deficit could be as large as $3.1 billion. That report was from BEFORE Walker's new programs. The state does have a deficit problem, but Walker made the problem much worse and then decided to go after the Teachers and Unions to fix a budget problem, that he helped make much worse in the first place. Get rid of the programs that Walker pushed for when he took office that exploded the deficit even more. Perhaps include all the Unions and not just the ones Gov Walker does not like. Doing something like that would result in less extreme givebacks being forced from the Unions, the ability to keep the Collective Bargaining Rights, and perhaps yes some cutbacks, but something perhaps everyone can agree with. That is a better alternative to going full throttle for the Unions in order to help close a deficit you helped double. What programs? Economic Development Plan Health Savings Accounts Corporate Tax Incentives. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: cinyc on February 21, 2011, 01:40:57 AM Actually no. More than 1/2 the deficit is caused by Walker's programs. That, quite simply, isn't true. As I've said numerous times with supporting links, even the outgoing DEMOCRATIC governor estimated the deficit for the next biennial period to be $2.1 billion. Please cite ANY estimate of Wisconsin's 2011-2013 budget gap as $4.2 billion. And that $2.1 billion figure was highly optimistic and unrealistic. Every other estimate was higher. So to double the deficit, the evil Republicans would likely have had to raise it to about $6 billion. That simply hasn't happened. The highest estimate I've seen is $3.6 billion. Walker and the evil Republicans caused the deficit to double about as much as Jim DeMint started the recession. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: jimrtex on February 21, 2011, 02:24:56 AM The introduction says: "In the odd-numbered years, our report includes estimated revenues and expenditures for the current fiscal year and tax collection projections for each year of the next biennium. This report presents the conclusions of our analysis." The Legislative Fiscal Bureau does not have any power to appropriate funds. Their purpose is to produce information on which the legislature can make decisions. They can make projections on future revenues. They can provide information on the current budget, and highlight unfunded liabilities of the state, and whether the current appropriations will meet the actual needs of the state. How is this in any way misleading? Who is being mislead? BTW, the fiscal note on benefit cuts for government employees show a much larger savings for local governments than for the state government. jimrtex, Have you been reading this thread? Or following this debate? MASSIVELY disparate numbers are being thrown around, this report is being cited with no context, and it is being used to make claims that are in no way addressed to the report. I already explained why it's misleading. Nothing in your first reply to me indicated an engagement with my explanation of why it's misleading, nor did anything in your second reply. You continue to make irrelevant statement that do not address my issues. I see no point in repeating myself for a third time. But if you look around the internet on the claims and counter claims and the links to this PDF, you should see. This PDF has become complete political fodder without any context whatsoever. Landslide Lyndon cited the report as showing that there was no deficit at the start of this year, in fact a surplus of $121 million (while this seems like a lot, it is about 1% of annual revenue). I explained that the report also showed: (1) That Wisconsin is required to maintain a minimum account balance of $65 million, so the net balance was $56 billion. (2) The report showed substantial current needs in Medicaid and Corrections that no money has been appropriated for in the current fiscal biennium. (3) That Wisconsin has a couple of debts that have not been addressed (a) Of about $60 million to Minnesota, which presumably can be turned over to collection agencies. What happens if a tow truck pulls up at 3 AM and drives off with Lambeau Field? (b) $200 million that was transferred to the general fund, which has been found to have been illegal, and in which a court hearing will be held in March with regard to putting back the purloined funds. How is that not responsive to Landslide Lyndon's claims? You apparently inferred that I was responding to some other discussion (eg "if you look around the internet on the claims and counter claims and the links to this PDF:). I am not responsible for all claims and counterclaims that may be made on the internet. You were inferring words that I did not write. When I first read about the situation in Wisconsin, I went to the Wisconsin legislature web site, and read the budgets for past few years. I also read this report. I also went to the current bills for the special session and read several, in particular the three bills mentioned in the report, and read their fiscal notes. I also found the controversial bill and saw that it included the appropriations for Medicaid and Corrections that were identified in the report. For something to be misleading, there has to be a misleader and the misled. Is the Legislative Fiscal Board misleading the legislators in that report? If so, how so? Was Jimrtex misleading Landslide Lyndon or Beet? If so, how so? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: jimrtex on February 21, 2011, 02:32:34 AM The actual truth calculated by an outside economist, not the bs tossed by the liberals. http://www.lafollette.wisc.edu/publications/workingpapers/reschovsky2010-016.pdf Projected deficit: Two-year total $2.877 billion In July, the state Supreme Court ruled that the state must return $200 million to the state’s Injured Patients and Families Compensation Fund that it had transferred to the General Fund in October 2007. The courts have not yet determined a schedule for the transfer. If part or all of the required transfer is scheduled during the next biennium, the state’s structural fiscal deficit could be as large as $3.1 billion. That report was from BEFORE Walker's new programs. Get rid of the programs that Walker pushed for when he took office that exploded the deficit even more. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: jimrtex on February 21, 2011, 03:23:03 AM What programs? Economic Development Plan Health Savings Accounts Corporate Tax Incentives. AB 3 provides tax credit for businesses that relocate to Wisconsin. $280,000 over biennium. Passed House 82-12; Passed Senate 24-9. AB7 provides a tax credit for small businesses (less than $500,000 gross receipts, so we're talking fewer than 10 employees). In addition, almost all of the impact is on individual income so it must be mainly Subchapter S corporations and partnerships. Cost $81 million over biennium. Passed by House 60-37; Passed by Senate 25-8. SB 2 adds deduction for Health Savings Account to match federal deduction. Cost $48 million over biennium. Passed by Senate 21-12; Passed by House 66-28. SB 6 creates Wisconsin Economic Development Corporation. Cost indeterminate. May produce reduction in expenditures based on termination of Department of Commerce programs. Passed by Senate 29-12; Passed by House 59-33. So that is $129 million over the biennium, or about 1/2 of 1% of state revenue. Moreover, they are statically scored, they most likely will result in increased private economic activity in Wisconsin. The Economic Development Corporation may well reduce expenditures in the Department of Commerce. The "corporate tax incentives" will be almost entirely reflected on individual income taxes. So if they are going to corporations it is to Subchapter S corporations. The small businesses will either hire more people, or the owner will spend more of his profits on consumption, or will otherwise invest it. The HSA deduction simply makes Wisconsin income taxes consistent with federal income taxes. Any money "saved" will probably actually be spent on health services provided in Wisconsin. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on February 21, 2011, 08:44:22 PM How does $150 million in spending add 1.5 billion to the deficit, Smash?
Remember Walker isn't trying to achieve solvency for a year or two, but for the long term. Hence for the purposes of what he is trying to do, the 125 million fictional surplus isn't as relevant as the 2.5 to 3.2 billion deficit the state is facing over next few years. If anything Walker's spending will actually help the situation long term (which is why similar tax incentives were passed in the jobs bills). Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Torie on February 21, 2011, 10:29:27 PM Apparently the teachers have folded on the financial issues. So now it is apparently all about castrating the public employee non public safety union(s). And so it goes.
Am I missing anything? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Beet on February 21, 2011, 10:46:39 PM jimrtex,
Are you the author of this report? In case you haven't noticed, I never accused you of misleading anyone. I never said you were responsible for jack. I never even addressed you until you responded to me with a question. I answered. You never acknowledged receiving the answer, repeated it, and are now defending yourself against a charge that I never made of you. I am not interested in what you personally did at the Wisconsin web site after reading this story. And I can't continue this bizzare exchange in which I only respond to you and you never respond to me. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on February 21, 2011, 10:51:08 PM Here it comes. Fight back!
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/49919_Page3.html There had been some fear from Democrats earlier Monday that Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald might try to separate the collective bargaining provisions from the overall budget bill and hold a vote on the legislation’s most controversial piece, because it technically does not involve the budget and would not require a quorum of 20 members. But, for now, Fitzgerald does not intend to do so, according to local reports. A spokesman for Fitzgerald did not immediately respond to a request for comment. Fitzgerald said Republicans may try to force the Democrats to return this week by calling a bill to the floor that would require voters to show identification at polling places - a bill Democrats oppose because they worry it will disenfranchise some voters. And Walker tried to add fear in his press conference Monday night by saying that if the legislature does not act on his budget soon, he will have to lay off 1,500 state workers because of the savings that will be lost. Time to move on these bills. They will pass unanimously. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Capitan Zapp Brannigan on February 21, 2011, 11:03:30 PM Apparently the teachers have folded on the financial issues. So now it is apparently all about castrating the public employee non public safety union(s). And so it goes. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Lief 🗽 on February 21, 2011, 11:18:55 PM Apparently the teachers have folded on the financial issues. So now it is apparently all about castrating the public employee non public safety union(s). And so it goes. Am I missing anything? I'm fairly certain that the union reps have agreed to the cuts since the beginning of the protests; this has always been about opposing Walker destroying (yes, that will be the eventual conclusion if this bill is passed) the public employee unions for no financial/budgetary reasons. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Smash255 on February 22, 2011, 12:22:56 AM How does $150 million in spending add 1.5 billion to the deficit, Smash? Remember Walker isn't trying to achieve solvency for a year or two, but for the long term. Hence for the purposes of what he is trying to do, the 125 million fictional surplus isn't as relevant as the 2.5 to 3.2 billion deficit the state is facing over next few years. If anything Walker's spending will actually help the situation long term (which is why similar tax incentives were passed in the jobs bills). Poor wording on my part. The budget deficit is going to be higher than thought a few months ago, much of that difference is due to Walker. Its also not just spending increases, but more tax cuts for wealthy corporations. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Smash255 on February 22, 2011, 12:24:02 AM Apparently the teachers have folded on the financial issues. So now it is apparently all about castrating the public employee non public safety union(s). And so it goes. Am I missing anything? [/quote Yup that is pretty much it. The teachers have agreed to all the concessions called for by Walker. This is all about the Collective Bargaining Rights that Walker is trying to take away from the Unions. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Napoleon on February 22, 2011, 12:25:08 AM In wake of agreeing to the concessions, wouldn't that be unnecessary?
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Sbane on February 22, 2011, 01:48:11 AM In wake of agreeing to the concessions, wouldn't that be unnecessary? What will be unnecessary? Busting the unions? That was the whole point of this bill. The concessions demanded from the unions may be tough, but they are nothing unusual. Similar deals are being cut all over America. This fight is all about whether people should be able to collectively bargain. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Marokai Backbeat on February 22, 2011, 01:54:23 AM In wake of agreeing to the concessions, wouldn't that be unnecessary? Busting unions and undermining Democratic electoral strength was the point from the very beginning. In Walker's mind, it's very necessary. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Marokai Backbeat on February 22, 2011, 02:15:10 AM And, of course, Ohio is next. (http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/02/21/ohio.budget.kasich/)
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Sbane on February 22, 2011, 02:45:36 AM And, of course, Ohio is next. (http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/02/21/ohio.budget.kasich/) Quote Senate Bill 5 would eliminate tenure as a consideration in deciding who gets laid off. I highly support this part of the bill. The most messed up part about public employee unions is when the big shots decide not to take pay cuts, and the new guy is the one who gets axed. It's ridiculous. Does this bill actually try weakening collective bargaining though, instead of making some common sense reform as to what exactly the unions can bargain for? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: MasterJedi on February 22, 2011, 02:50:14 AM Walker is not going to back down, so my only question is what happens if the Dems don't come back to Madison? I really don't know what the rules are about that such as if they'd lose their jobs after a certain amount of time or more likely they get to be paid for doing nothing.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on February 22, 2011, 07:53:03 AM None of this is any different from what Walker and the Republicans already had planned for this session, and could pass without the Democrats' votes.
The real action is whether any of the moderate Republican senators are wavering on his union busting bill. At least one is. Here it comes. Fight back! http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/49919_Page3.html There had been some fear from Democrats earlier Monday that Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald might try to separate the collective bargaining provisions from the overall budget bill and hold a vote on the legislation’s most controversial piece, because it technically does not involve the budget and would not require a quorum of 20 members. But, for now, Fitzgerald does not intend to do so, according to local reports. A spokesman for Fitzgerald did not immediately respond to a request for comment. Fitzgerald said Republicans may try to force the Democrats to return this week by calling a bill to the floor that would require voters to show identification at polling places - a bill Democrats oppose because they worry it will disenfranchise some voters. And Walker tried to add fear in his press conference Monday night by saying that if the legislature does not act on his budget soon, he will have to lay off 1,500 state workers because of the savings that will be lost. Time to move on these bills. They will pass unanimously. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on February 22, 2011, 07:53:39 AM Walker is not going to back down, so my only question is what happens if the Dems don't come back to Madison? I really don't know what the rules are about that such as if they'd lose their jobs after a certain amount of time or more likely they get to be paid for doing nothing. Walker isn't going to back down, but 3 Republican senators might. We've seen what happens when the minority party obstructs and forces the majority to take tough decisions that make a subset of voters very angry and unhappy... the electorate goes for balance. Some of those Republican senators want to stay in office past next year and don't share Walker's desire for a total clash of civilizations with a good chunk of their constituents. Check out this chart: http://www.swingstateproject.com/diary/8405/wisconsin-presidential-results-by-state-senate-district Three Republican senators represent districts won by John Kerry, with a fourth going 49%-50%. The number of Republican senators in districts not won by Obama is, um, 5 out of 19. These senators may recognize that while 2008 isn't coming back, neither is 2010, and gerrymandering is only going to do so much to save them from the consequences of Walker's overreach. How many of them want to be the Dina Titus, John Salazar, or Dan Maffei to Walker's Obama? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on February 22, 2011, 09:02:24 AM Two polls—one commissioned by the AFL-CIO with a reputable pollster, another by WeAskAmerica—show Walker upside down on this issue. I encourage people to look at the polls rather than just the sponsorship, although of course sponsorship can't be ignored.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2011/02/new_poll_of_wisconsin.php?ref=fpblg I think there's a Rasmussen poll on the other side which Nate Silver picked apart for leading questions before asking people's approval. http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/rasmussen-poll-on-wisconsin-dispute-may-be-biased/ Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Torie on February 22, 2011, 10:31:51 AM Walker is not going to back down, so my only question is what happens if the Dems don't come back to Madison? I really don't know what the rules are about that such as if they'd lose their jobs after a certain amount of time or more likely they get to be paid for doing nothing. One story suggested the GOP is thinking of enacting into law one bill after another that the Dems hate for which you don't need a quorum because it does not involve financial issues apparently. First up is requiring that you show ID to vote. The thought is that this series of tactical nuclear strikes will induce to Dems to fold in order to stop the bleeding. And at this point, if some Pubbie state senators desert, they had better either change parties or retire I suspect. A division of the House has been called, and whichever door you walk through is one from which you can't walk back out. That seems to be the lay of the land to me. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on February 22, 2011, 10:45:39 AM Walker is not going to back down, so my only question is what happens if the Dems don't come back to Madison? I really don't know what the rules are about that such as if they'd lose their jobs after a certain amount of time or more likely they get to be paid for doing nothing. One story suggested the GOP is thinking of enacting into law one bill after another that the Dems hate for which you don't need a quorum because it does not involve financial issues apparently. First up is requiring that you show ID to vote. The thought is that this series of tactical nuclear strikes will induce to Dems to fold in order to stop the bleeding. Won't those bills pass anyway when the Dems return? Republicans had already announced that they would introduce and pass those bills, and if they need only a simple majority, they'll have it with or without a fiscal bill quorum. I don't see how this constitutes a trump card. Quote And at this point, if some Pubbie state senators desert, they had better either change parties or retire I suspect. A division of the House has been called, and whichever door you walk through is one from which you can't walk back out. That seems to be the lay of the land to me. This sounds like Democrats talking about whipping votes for the health care bill. They got their wish. Is it hard to imagine that many state senators in Wisconsin support a compromise that cuts costs without going to the full monty on union-busting? Walker is Governor, not Prime Minister. He is elected statewide and has the luxury of building a 50+1% coalition that senators from districts with less anti-union voters don't have. I think that what Walker, and what partisans in other parts of the country want, should not be presumed to be what the senate Republican caucus wants, and certainly not what the voters of Wisconsin want. The governor can draw a line in the sand but the senators are not obligated to deliver 100% when they find they are personally more than happy with 70%. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Torie on February 22, 2011, 10:56:01 AM It won't look good if the Dems are AWOL while bill after bill is passed. But we shall see. As I said, it is a mere tactical nuke, that the "big one."
You don't think Pubbie turncoats will be primaried? I would have done this all more subtly myself. I support the goal of truncating public employee union power. They can be a voice for their members, but the structure needs to be changed, so they don't have the power to be so toxic to the public interest in the future as I see it, both as to how schools are run (or other institutions for which they serve), and as to off balance sheet pension benefits, and other maneuvers that don't instantly bust the budget, but will in due time, not to mention cause the classrooms to be loaded with incompetents at the front of the room facing the kids. Just how to do that requires some thought, but that is what I would do. The way state and local governments operate needs to be changed. It just isn't working. Interestingly, as to federal employees, most of these issues do not exist nearly to the same degree. The dirty little secret is that the federal government is run better than most of the more local ones. I have to laugh at the Pubbies for suggesting otherwise, when the evidence is so clear and convincing that it is the opposite that is true. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on February 22, 2011, 10:58:20 AM You don't think Pubbie turncoats will be primaried? In some of these districts? No, I don't. Sam has often mentioned that the Tea Party is a suburban phenomenon. The suburban senators aren't the ones at risk here. Many senators were elected just because the electorate was old and anti-PPACA last year, not because they all read Atlas Shrugged in October. I don't think that even Republican primary voters in many parts of Wisconsin are as hard-line as you and Walker are on this issue, although I'm only guessing, especially when the Republicans have already secured massive givebacks of money from the unions. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: opebo on February 22, 2011, 11:03:50 AM Food service department at a historical attraction. So how do you survive? And don't you find your poverty would tend to serve as an argument near-at-hand in favor of unions? I actually like making money, so I show up to work. And I'm not exactly in poverty. I get a salary and rarely go to work. How can you imagine you are not in poverty if you work in food service? Tell us how much you make. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Torie on February 22, 2011, 11:12:47 AM You don't think Pubbie turncoats will be primaried? In some of these districts? No, I don't. Sam has often mentioned that the Tea Party is a suburban phenomenon. The suburban senators aren't the ones at risk here. I don't think that even Republican primary voters in many parts of Wisconsin are as hard-line as you and Walker are on this issue, although I'm only guessing, especially when the Republicans have already secured massive givebacks of money from the unions. I certainly don't claim to be an expert on the Pubbie mindset in small town and rural Wisconsin. Krazen77 may have a thought or two about that. In any event, it seems reasonable that this contretemps has polarized voters, and I would be surprised that even assuming this cohort of voters have not been in the front lines of the tea party phalanxes, they have not moved somewhat in their direction. I do think we should have learned something from the Obamacare cf. It can be a mistake to not try to get what is most critical done with a bit more consensus, rather than go for the gold and do a divide of the House, where the losing side will be working 24/7 to undermine what has been wrought at every turn. We did that with the abortion issue (well SCOTUS did), and we have been living with the negative consequences ever since. It simply increases exponentially the toxicity quotient in the public square. As I say, if I were Walker I would have been more subtle - and patient - and flexible at least to some extent, if only for cosmetic reasons. One thought (as an alternative to a law that unions simply can't talk about pension and medical benefits at all) is if you change the accounting rules to put all pension liabilities on the balance sheet now, thereby busting the budget, with budgets really do needing to be balanced with no accounting games, that in and of itself might put an end to the sordid practice of politicians of both parties juicing up public employee pension plans which just coincidentally juice up their own. That is what the Pubbie Supervisors in Orange County did, a majority of them. They juiced up County employee pension plans - retroactively - thereby putting their own compensation on steroids. The first imperative is greed. Do politicians try to think creatively at all? Just asking. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Torie on February 22, 2011, 11:15:40 AM Quote I get a salary and rarely go to work. I could not exist like that myself. It would not comport with my conscience. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on February 22, 2011, 11:25:18 AM You don't think Pubbie turncoats will be primaried? In some of these districts? No, I don't. Sam has often mentioned that the Tea Party is a suburban phenomenon. The suburban senators aren't the ones at risk here. I don't think that even Republican primary voters in many parts of Wisconsin are as hard-line as you and Walker are on this issue, although I'm only guessing, especially when the Republicans have already secured massive givebacks of money from the unions. I certainly don't claim to be an expert on the Pubbie mindset in small town and rural Wisconsin. Krazen77 may have a thought or two about that. Krazen lives in NJ, I think? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Torie on February 22, 2011, 11:28:02 AM Two polls—one commissioned by the AFL-CIO with a reputable pollster, another by WeAskAmerica—show Walker upside down on this issue. I encourage people to look at the polls rather than just the sponsorship, although of course sponsorship can't be ignored. http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2011/02/new_poll_of_wisconsin.php?ref=fpblg I think there's a Rasmussen poll on the other side which Nate Silver picked apart for leading questions before asking people's approval. http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/rasmussen-poll-on-wisconsin-dispute-may-be-biased/ I have to agree that that Ras poll is simply awful. What a joke! I am beginning to worry that Ras is turning into a whore. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Torie on February 22, 2011, 11:28:49 AM You don't think Pubbie turncoats will be primaried? In some of these districts? No, I don't. Sam has often mentioned that the Tea Party is a suburban phenomenon. The suburban senators aren't the ones at risk here. I don't think that even Republican primary voters in many parts of Wisconsin are as hard-line as you and Walker are on this issue, although I'm only guessing, especially when the Republicans have already secured massive givebacks of money from the unions. I certainly don't claim to be an expert on the Pubbie mindset in small town and rural Wisconsin. Krazen77 may have a thought or two about that. Krazen lives in NJ, I think? Oh. I thought Wisconsin, since he seems so informed on the doings there on this issue. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 22, 2011, 11:44:47 AM You don't think Pubbie turncoats will be primaried? In some of these districts? No, I don't. Sam has often mentioned that the Tea Party is a suburban phenomenon. The suburban senators aren't the ones at risk here. I don't think that even Republican primary voters in many parts of Wisconsin are as hard-line as you and Walker are on this issue, although I'm only guessing, especially when the Republicans have already secured massive givebacks of money from the unions. I certainly don't claim to be an expert on the Pubbie mindset in small town and rural Wisconsin. Krazen77 may have a thought or two about that. Krazen lives in NJ, I think? Didn't he say that he's from Florida? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on February 22, 2011, 11:57:17 AM I remember a fuss here when some Republicans in the State House switched sides to override Pawlenty's gas tax veto. The one who was primaried was from a suburban more liberal district which Obama ended up winning solidly. At least one of the others was from a very conservative rural district, and they won with no problems. Please note this was 2008 as well.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: opebo on February 22, 2011, 12:05:01 PM Quote I get a salary and rarely go to work. I could not exist like that myself. It would not comport with my conscience. Your conscience is an ass. I toil for my bread, but it just so happens that I toil for a more reasonable amount of time than the 40 hours most unfortunates must do. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on February 22, 2011, 12:20:34 PM Krazen lives in NJ, I think? Yep. We are exhibit A of union abuse, or maybe exhibit B after New York.. Wisconsin, to their credit, was not quite near as bad. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on February 22, 2011, 12:21:28 PM Oh. I thought Wisconsin, since he seems so informed on the doings there on this issue. Information is freely available on the internet. It merely takes someone willing to go read it. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on February 22, 2011, 12:25:59 PM NJ is also an example of the Baumol effect:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol%27s_cost_disease Here's a good summary of the impact of the trap: http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2011/02/schools-and-the-baumol-effect/ Quote The following options are available: — Class size can steadily increase over time. — Teacher pay relative to average pay can steadily decline over time. — Taxes can steadily rise over time. The problem is that as our society gets wealthier as a result of technological change and improvements in productivity, labor-intensive occupations that do not have opportunities for new efficiencies will lose out relative to others unless pay is raised or society decides to employ fewer people doing the job, or worse-trained people. NJ is a state with a high cost of living and good opportunities for people with college degrees. Consequently, teacher pay will get higher over time, which means fewer teachers or higher taxes, or a serious degradation in the quality of people becoming teachers. That is not the full story of costs, far from it, but it is part of the reason pay has increased, as you've cited. This is also why Downton Abbey is set in the 1910s and not today. Baumol's cost disease killed off skilled servant labor for all but the wealthiest people along with technical change. But who's going to replace teachers the way that valets have proven dispensable? It would seem your argument is that class size should steadily increase over time. (Many of the new staff that have lowered teacher:pupil ratio have gone into special needs one-on-one; as angus cited, regular and advanced students have worse options than ever.) Anyway, we can't discuss teacher pay without discussing this dilemma. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on February 22, 2011, 12:33:40 PM If the state senate had the votes to abolish collective bargaining now, they could "go nuclear" and do it. They have no reason not to strip that out from the fiscal bill and pass it with their reduced quorum. Many people feared Walker would do it.
But the fact that they haven't and the GOP leader in the State Senate said he would not move on this until the Dems returned is a tell that they haven't got the votes within their caucus to do so. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Franzl on February 22, 2011, 12:50:45 PM If the state senate had the votes to abolish collective bargaining now, they could "go nuclear" and do it. They have no reason not to strip that out from the fiscal bill and pass it with their reduced quorum. Many people feared Walker would do it. But the fact that they haven't and the GOP leader in the State Senate said he would not move on this until the Dems returned is a tell that they haven't got the votes within their caucus to do so. Alternatively, though....if there isn't a majority in favor of the bill, why are Democrats having a problem showing up? If there aren't enough votes to pass, there would be no reason to stay in Illinois. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 22, 2011, 12:59:53 PM If the state senate had the votes to abolish collective bargaining now, they could "go nuclear" and do it. They have no reason not to strip that out from the fiscal bill and pass it with their reduced quorum. Many people feared Walker would do it. But the fact that they haven't and the GOP leader in the State Senate said he would not move on this until the Dems returned is a tell that they haven't got the votes within their caucus to do so. Alternatively, though....if there isn't a majority in favor of the bill, why are Democrats having a problem showing up? If there aren't enough votes to pass, there would be no reason to stay in Illinois. Because Walker is refusing to compromise? Seriously, the guy rejected his own party leader's proposal. Obviously he sees himself as some kind of conservative hero and accepting any kind of compromise will undercut that image. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on February 22, 2011, 01:02:17 PM NJ is also an example of the Baumol effect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol%27s_cost_disease Here's a good summary of the impact of the trap: http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2011/02/schools-and-the-baumol-effect/ Quote The following options are available: — Class size can steadily increase over time. — Teacher pay relative to average pay can steadily decline over time. — Taxes can steadily rise over time. The problem is that as our society gets wealthier as a result of technological change and improvements in productivity, labor-intensive occupations that do not have opportunities for new efficiencies will lose out relative to others unless pay is raised or society decides to employ fewer people doing the job, or worse-trained people. NJ is a state with a high cost of living and good opportunities for people with college degrees. Consequently, teacher pay will get higher over time, which means fewer teachers or higher taxes, or a serious degradation in the quality of people becoming teachers. That is not the full story of costs, far from it, but it is part of the reason pay has increased, as you've cited. This is also why Downton Abbey is set in the 1910s and not today. Baumol's cost disease killed off skilled servant labor for all but the wealthiest people along with technical change. But who's going to replace teachers the way that valets have proven dispensable? It would seem your argument is that class size should steadily increase over time. (Many of the new staff that have lowered teacher:pupil ratio have gone into special needs one-on-one; as angus cited, regular and advanced students have worse options than ever.) Anyway, we can't discuss teacher pay without discussing this dilemma. This is a good post and it requires a more clever solution. There is, however, an answer, or at least something in the direction of an answer. http://www.newjerseynewsroom.com/state/nj-turns-to-rosetta-stone-over-language-teachers Touted as the No. 1 computer program of its kind on the Rosetta Stone Web site, the software "uses rich visual imagery to help students learn and think in a new language." And it has amounted (and will likely amount) to thousands in cost savings for the following schools: Ridgewood saved just under $200,000 by ridding of three teaching positions. Manalapan-Englishtown Regional is expected to save about $140,000 by ridding of five teaching positions. Randolph is due to save about $90,000 by using the program. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Franzl on February 22, 2011, 01:02:27 PM Because Walker is refusing to compromise? Seriously, the guy rejected his own party leader's proposal. Obviously he sees himself as some kind of conservative hero and accepting any kind of compromise will undercut that image. You misunderstand me. Brittain was saying that the fact that Republicans aren't using "the nuclear option" means that they don't have the necessary majority to pass the bill. I'm asking why the Democrats need to flee Wisconsin if the Republicans do not have enough votes. It seems like the only reason to be in Illinois is to prevent a 60% quorum being present....but that only seems logical if they know 50%+ support passing the bill. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Capitan Zapp Brannigan on February 22, 2011, 01:02:51 PM It won't look good if the Dems are AWOL while bill after bill is passed. But we shall see. As I said, it is a mere tactical nuke, that the "big one." Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on February 22, 2011, 01:02:58 PM If the state senate had the votes to abolish collective bargaining now, they could "go nuclear" and do it. They have no reason not to strip that out from the fiscal bill and pass it with their reduced quorum. Many people feared Walker would do it. But the fact that they haven't and the GOP leader in the State Senate said he would not move on this until the Dems returned is a tell that they haven't got the votes within their caucus to do so. Alternatively, though....if there isn't a majority in favor of the bill, why are Democrats having a problem showing up? If there aren't enough votes to pass, there would be no reason to stay in Illinois. A number of reasons: 1. They don't know the true state of play in the caucus the way the GOP leader does. There are probably senators who are wavering, but not committed no votes. 2. Returning to Madison and enabling the legislature to call a vote gives the Republicans a chance to screw up their courage and do it and get it over with, and call it a victory. By staying away and keeping the outcome in doubt, they keep the pressure on the Republicans and make it unbearable, meaning some waverers could become solid nos or start publicly floating compromises. 3. Maybe it's all a trap for the Dems to return--can't rule that out. 4. There are surely senators who would rather vote for this in a full senate than in a rump senate and so are only conditional yesses. Time is the enemy of the Republicans. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Franzl on February 22, 2011, 01:05:02 PM A couple of reasons: 1. They don't know the true state of play in the caucus the way the GOP leader does. There are probably senators who are wavering, but not committed no votes. That's true, yeah. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Capitan Zapp Brannigan on February 22, 2011, 01:07:15 PM The more I think about this, the more I am convinced that the Senate Dems should stay in exile for as long as necessary for the Republicans to agree to not get rid of collective bargaining.
If they back down and the bill passes than it will be a crushing defeat and a gigantic victory for Walker in a battle of wills and they cannot let that happen. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Torie on February 22, 2011, 01:17:48 PM Or the delay will end up passing the anti union thing separately. Is there any rush with this? Why can't the Pubbies just go about their business for months while the Dems get to know much better the lay of the land in suburban Chicago? Another pressure point is that Walker could start firing people without a budget.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on February 22, 2011, 01:25:49 PM Or the delay will end up passing the anti union thing separately. Is there any rush with this? Why can't the Pubbies just go about their business for months while the Dems get to know much better the lay of the land in suburban Chicago? Another pressure point is that Walker could start firing people without a budget. In other words they hold the all the cards? Yeah, they do. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on February 22, 2011, 01:38:00 PM Another pressure point is that Walker could start firing people without a budget. Walker can do all kinds of things with a majority. The question is, and it has always been, how the Republicans judge the consequences of these actions for the future and if they think these are all good thing that are being accomplished. I really wonder if Walker laying off state employees when he is the one who is seen to be unwilling to compromise will play out well in Wisconsin. But there seems to be a real gap in this forum on that. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Torie on February 22, 2011, 01:39:47 PM Or the delay will end up passing the anti union thing separately. Is there any rush with this? Why can't the Pubbies just go about their business for months while the Dems get to know much better the lay of the land in suburban Chicago? Another pressure point is that Walker could start firing people without a budget. In other words they hold the all the cards? Yeah, they do. One Dem senate lady (very nice lady actually) in Wisconsin said that the matter just needed more extensive debate, and was being rushed. So why not promise the Dems that they can chat about it on the floor for a fortnight before a vote, with some protection against another episode of Escape From Madison? Yes, I know, that will just result in another rationale, but at least that one could be put to bed as a Dem talking point, forcing them to come up with another. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Torie on February 22, 2011, 01:43:58 PM Another pressure point is that Walker could start firing people without a budget. Walker can do all kinds of things with a majority. The question is, and it has always been, how the Republicans judge the consequences of these actions for the future and if they think these are all good thing that are being accomplished. I really wonder if Walker laying off state employees when he is the one who is seen to be unwilling to compromise will play out well in Wisconsin. But there seems to be a real gap in this forum on that. The Pubbies have crossed the Rubicon on this. They can't afford to lose. They have kind of boxed themselves in. I wonder if they adequately mapped this all out in advance, the way I do sometimes before a tough negotiation or trial. I sometimes spend a lot of time trying to think through all the angles, so that I am not bitten in the ass by surprise. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on February 22, 2011, 01:47:49 PM Torie, where I part ways with you is that I see the Republicans having already won a substantial victory in the big givebacks from the unions—especially the precedent in going from zero contributions to significant ones. I think they should take that win and consider themselves fortunate. No, they won't be able to kneecap the Democratic Party's troopers for future elections. But they'll have done a lot for good government and good budgeting.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Torie on February 22, 2011, 01:52:00 PM If the GOP drops the unions can't F with pensions and medical benefits anymore stricture, it will be seen I think as a massive and castrating defeat. That is where we disagree I suspect.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Capitan Zapp Brannigan on February 22, 2011, 02:02:26 PM Or the delay will end up passing the anti union thing separately. Is there any rush with this? Why can't the Pubbies just go about their business for months while the Dems get to know much better the lay of the land in suburban Chicago? Another pressure point is that Walker could start firing people without a budget. Plus, if I was them I'd want to force the Dems back to Wisconsin if only for the fact it would be humiliating for them to back down. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on February 22, 2011, 02:03:08 PM If the GOP drops the unions can't F with pensions and medical benefits anymore stricture, it will be seen I think as a massive and castrating defeat. That is where we disagree I suspect. I think Wisconsin was a tough state for them to start this particular rollback and they'll have better luck elsewhere even if Walker falters. We'll see. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Landslide Lyndon on February 22, 2011, 02:50:06 PM Or the delay will end up passing the anti union thing separately. Is there any rush with this? Why can't the Pubbies just go about their business for months while the Dems get to know much better the lay of the land in suburban Chicago? Another pressure point is that Walker could start firing people without a budget. In other words they hold the all the cards? Yeah, they do. One Dem senate lady (very nice lady actually) in Wisconsin said that the matter just needed more extensive debate, and was being rushed. So why not promise the Dems that they can chat about it on the floor for a fortnight before a vote, with some protection against another episode of Escape From Madison? Yes, I know, that will just result in another rationale, but at least that one could be put to bed as a Dem talking point, forcing them to come up with another. That's what the Republicans said also about the HCR bill but everybody knew it was BS. And yes, the Republicans can do anything they want since they control the trifecta. But the gap between "can do" and "do" is sometimes too big to make the jump. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Napoleon on February 22, 2011, 04:03:22 PM Do corporations get to be considered individuals still if the unions get dismantled?
This is rubbish and I don't even prioritize unions. You can't punish people for voting in their self-interest. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Sbane on February 22, 2011, 04:08:42 PM Do corporations get to be considered individuals still if the unions get dismantled? Of course they do. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Skill and Chance on February 22, 2011, 05:09:32 PM Do corporations get to be considered individuals still if the unions get dismantled? Of course they do. It would be interesting (and ironic) if a state like Massachusetts or Maryland tries to end corporate personhood in response to this. I wonder if that is being considered anywhere. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on February 22, 2011, 05:14:52 PM It would be interesting (and ironic) if a state like Massachusetts or Maryland tries to end corporate personhood in response to this. I wonder if that is being considered anywhere. It's hardly uncharted waters. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: opebo on February 22, 2011, 05:55:41 PM It would be interesting (and ironic) if a state like Massachusetts or Maryland tries to end corporate personhood in response to this. I wonder if that is being considered anywhere. I think there is zero possibility of any government entity in the USA interfering with corporate power. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Insula Dei on February 22, 2011, 05:56:51 PM It would be interesting (and ironic) if a state like Massachusetts or Maryland tries to end corporate personhood in response to this. I wonder if that is being considered anywhere. It's hardly uncharted waters. I'm so sorry to hear that. You have my condoleances. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Franzl on February 22, 2011, 05:59:00 PM I'm so sorry to hear that. You have my condoleances. I wouldn't necessarily go as far as to advocate disallowing them entirely....but public sector unions truly are a disease. A disease whose power needs to be seriously reduced. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on February 22, 2011, 06:15:24 PM The hammer drops.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703529004576160742045911986.html?mod=googlenews_wsj Ohio joins the party and prepares to disband public sector unions. And, thankfully, they only have majority requirements for quorum. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: jimrtex on February 22, 2011, 06:27:23 PM jimrtex, Are you the author of this report? In case you haven't noticed, I never accused you of misleading anyone. I never said you were responsible for jack. I never even addressed you until you responded to me with a question. I answered. You never acknowledged receiving the answer, repeated it, and are now defending yourself against a charge that I never made of you. The use that some people have cited it to suggest that Wisconsin had a surplus when Walker became governor, is misleading and not accurate. Landslide Lyndon cited the report in such a manner. I explained to him (and others who may have been reading) what the report actually did show: (1) That Wisconsin had $160 million in current needs in the fiscal biennium, for which expenditures have not been budgeted - for Medicaid and Corrections. In addition there is around $200 million in debt owed by Wisconsin to replenish a fund that was illegally transferred to the general fund during a previous administration, and $60 million that is owed to Minnesota. The $200 million is subject to a court hearing in March, where Wisconsin could be ordered to repay some or all of it in the current fiscal biennium. One reader of that exchange between Landslide Lyndon and myself, who identified himself as "Beet" quoted Lyndon and me, and added a statement that concluded that the report was misleading. I apologize if it was some other "Beet" who wrote that, or if what "Beet" wrote was non-responsive to what I wrote. But if it was you, then that was the first time you responded to me. I followed up to your claim that the report was misleading, with my question. Your response to my question was the 2nd time you responded to me. Not the first. The report is not misleading. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: jimrtex on February 22, 2011, 06:37:03 PM How does $150 million in spending add 1.5 billion to the deficit, Smash? Remember Walker isn't trying to achieve solvency for a year or two, but for the long term. Hence for the purposes of what he is trying to do, the 125 million fictional surplus isn't as relevant as the 2.5 to 3.2 billion deficit the state is facing over next few years. If anything Walker's spending will actually help the situation long term (which is why similar tax incentives were passed in the jobs bills). Poor wording on my part. The budget deficit is going to be higher than thought a few months ago, much of that difference is due to Walker. Its also not just spending increases, but more tax cuts for wealthy corporations. The Health Savings Account is a deduction on individual income taxes to match the deduction on the federal income tax. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Marokai Backbeat on February 22, 2011, 09:45:28 PM The hammer drops. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703529004576160742045911986.html?mod=googlenews_wsj Ohio joins the party and prepares to disband public sector unions. And, thankfully, they only have majority requirements for quorum. I don't often get a little frightened and oddly hyperbolic and conspiratorial, but the amount of cheerleading you and others in this thread are doing is downright creepy considering the obvious motivations behind these moves. This is about crippling the Democratic Party electorally, this is about crippling the organizational capabilities that left-wing grassroots depends upon, this is about eliminating the only, the only, competition corporate money has in American politics. This is literally about destroying elements of our democracy for partisan purposes. And people like you scare the sh**t out of me when I think about what a future America could look like after this. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on February 22, 2011, 11:48:30 PM How does $150 million in spending add 1.5 billion to the deficit, Smash? Remember Walker isn't trying to achieve solvency for a year or two, but for the long term. Hence for the purposes of what he is trying to do, the 125 million fictional surplus isn't as relevant as the 2.5 to 3.2 billion deficit the state is facing over next few years. If anything Walker's spending will actually help the situation long term (which is why similar tax incentives were passed in the jobs bills). Poor wording on my part. The budget deficit is going to be higher than thought a few months ago, much of that difference is due to Walker. Its also not just spending increases, but more tax cuts for wealthy corporations. I thought you guys considered tax cuts as spending? That is what I was doing here for your sakes. :P There are three items that I have seen, totaling about 150 million to 200 million or something like that. How does that double a 2 billion dollar deficit? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: ○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└ on February 23, 2011, 12:03:31 AM While Illinois is in good hands, some of their neighbors seem to want to move back to the Haymarket times. This is about making sure that corporations have the power to do whatever they want.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on February 23, 2011, 12:05:41 AM I don't often get a little frightened and oddly hyperbolic and conspiratorial, but the amount of cheerleading you and others in this thread are doing is downright creepy considering the obvious motivations behind these moves. This is about crippling the Democratic Party electorally, this is about crippling the organizational capabilities that left-wing grassroots depends upon, this is about eliminating the only, the only, competition corporate money has in American politics. This is literally about destroying elements of our democracy for partisan purposes. And people like you scare the sh**t out of me when I think about what a future America could look like after this. Why do you think John Kennedy allowed federal public sector unionization in the first place? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on February 23, 2011, 10:58:25 AM Party line ramming is only for the Democrats who get elected with support of the AFL-CIO and other unions..
http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/ohiopolitics/entries/2011/02/22/sponsor_of_ohios_1983_collecti.html?cxtype=feedbot&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+StatelineorgRss-Ohio+(Stateline.org+RSS+-+Ohio) Branstool, a retired farmer from near Utica, said his experience as a member of a local school board was one of the reasons he sponsored the bill back in 1983. The local board voluntarily recognized a bargaining unit for teachers, but the need existed for a formal system, said Branstool. The 1983 legislation, signed into law by Democratic Gov. Richard F. Celeste, passed the Senate on a party-line vote, 17-16, with all Democrats supporting it and all Republicans opposed. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Person Man on February 24, 2011, 04:31:25 PM The hammer drops. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703529004576160742045911986.html?mod=googlenews_wsj Ohio joins the party and prepares to disband public sector unions. And, thankfully, they only have majority requirements for quorum. I don't often get a little frightened and oddly hyperbolic and conspiratorial, but the amount of cheerleading you and others in this thread are doing is downright creepy considering the obvious motivations behind these moves. This is about crippling the Democratic Party electorally, this is about crippling the organizational capabilities that left-wing grassroots depends upon, this is about eliminating the only, the only, competition corporate money has in American politics. This is literally about destroying elements of our democracy for partisan purposes. And people like you scare the sh**t out of me when I think about what a future America could look like after this. It's not simply a political power issue, its a sovreignty issue. Basically the government is surrending sovreignty to the large private estates that share ownership in the corporations. Its what was called the Latifundia in the Late Roman Empire and was the basis to start whittling away at the sovreignty and territorial integrity of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century A.D. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on February 24, 2011, 11:23:51 PM The hammer drops. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703529004576160742045911986.html?mod=googlenews_wsj Ohio joins the party and prepares to disband public sector unions. And, thankfully, they only have majority requirements for quorum. I don't often get a little frightened and oddly hyperbolic and conspiratorial, but the amount of cheerleading you and others in this thread are doing is downright creepy considering the obvious motivations behind these moves. This is about crippling the Democratic Party electorally, this is about crippling the organizational capabilities that left-wing grassroots depends upon, this is about eliminating the only, the only, competition corporate money has in American politics. This is literally about destroying elements of our democracy for partisan purposes. And people like you scare the sh**t out of me when I think about what a future America could look like after this. It's not simply a political power issue, its a sovreignty issue. Basically the government is surrending sovreignty to the large private estates that share ownership in the corporations. Its what was called the Latifundia in the Late Roman Empire and was the basis to start whittling away at the sovreignty and territorial integrity of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century A.D. Now I know we have come full circle if liberals are making comparisons to Rome. :P Rome had other issues with sovereignty beyond that, ones which I doubt you would want to make a comparison on to today's US. ;) They also had a flow of wealth out of Gaul, Italy and Iberia towards the Middle East, and the Han Empire of China. Gold for Silk (I realize its oversimplification of the trade system of 250-400 AD ) eventually leads you with a lot of useless fine clothing and no money. Plus the clothes wear out. Kind of like dollars for oil, today. This is why in 1000 AD the two centers of world finance (and ironically two ends of the same trade route) was China and the Middle East. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Person Man on February 24, 2011, 11:46:07 PM The hammer drops. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703529004576160742045911986.html?mod=googlenews_wsj Ohio joins the party and prepares to disband public sector unions. And, thankfully, they only have majority requirements for quorum. I don't often get a little frightened and oddly hyperbolic and conspiratorial, but the amount of cheerleading you and others in this thread are doing is downright creepy considering the obvious motivations behind these moves. This is about crippling the Democratic Party electorally, this is about crippling the organizational capabilities that left-wing grassroots depends upon, this is about eliminating the only, the only, competition corporate money has in American politics. This is literally about destroying elements of our democracy for partisan purposes. And people like you scare the sh**t out of me when I think about what a future America could look like after this. It's not simply a political power issue, its a sovreignty issue. Basically the government is surrending sovreignty to the large private estates that share ownership in the corporations. Its what was called the Latifundia in the Late Roman Empire and was the basis to start whittling away at the sovreignty and territorial integrity of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century A.D. Now I know we have come full circle if liberals are making comparisons to Rome. :P Rome had other issues with sovereignty beyond that, ones which I doubt you would want to make a comparison on to today's US. ;) They also had a flow of wealth out of Gaul, Italy and Iberia towards the Middle East, and the Han Empire of China. Gold for Silk (I realize its oversimplification of the trade system of 250-400 AD ) eventually leads you with a lot of useless fine clothing and no money. Plus the clothes wear out. Kind of like dollars for oil, today. This is why in 1000 AD the two centers of world finance (and ironically two ends of the same trade route) was China and the Middle East. For the first point, I guess a conservative could make an argument against immigration though the US is more structurally equiped to deal with it than Rome. ...and of course, there are slight similarities between terrorist attacks and German, Iranian and Arab raiders...mainly being that they are transient, short-lived and expensive events orchestrated by very desperate people. Oil Shieks....Chinese silk traders?...Well, I guess this is another comparison with Rome that's in order, then? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: LBJ Revivalist on February 25, 2011, 03:29:01 AM The hammer drops. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703529004576160742045911986.html?mod=googlenews_wsj Ohio joins the party and prepares to disband public sector unions. And, thankfully, they only have majority requirements for quorum. I don't often get a little frightened and oddly hyperbolic and conspiratorial, but the amount of cheerleading you and others in this thread are doing is downright creepy considering the obvious motivations behind these moves. This is about crippling the Democratic Party electorally, this is about crippling the organizational capabilities that left-wing grassroots depends upon, this is about eliminating the only, the only, competition corporate money has in American politics. This is literally about destroying elements of our democracy for partisan purposes. And people like you scare the sh**t out of me when I think about what a future America could look like after this. WE'RE GOING BACK TO 1880! LIBERALISM IS DEAD, FOREVER. Title: Re: Desperate Teachers Unions force Madison Schools to cancel classes Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on February 25, 2011, 03:30:31 AM Food service department at a historical attraction. So how do you survive? And don't you find your poverty would tend to serve as an argument near-at-hand in favor of unions? I actually like making money, so I show up to work. And I'm not exactly in poverty. Yes, I still live with my parents... for another couple of years... what's your point? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Franzl on February 25, 2011, 06:13:22 AM I imagine his point is you'd find it hard to survive on your own with your current work.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on February 25, 2011, 11:31:08 PM The hammer drops. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703529004576160742045911986.html?mod=googlenews_wsj Ohio joins the party and prepares to disband public sector unions. And, thankfully, they only have majority requirements for quorum. I don't often get a little frightened and oddly hyperbolic and conspiratorial, but the amount of cheerleading you and others in this thread are doing is downright creepy considering the obvious motivations behind these moves. This is about crippling the Democratic Party electorally, this is about crippling the organizational capabilities that left-wing grassroots depends upon, this is about eliminating the only, the only, competition corporate money has in American politics. This is literally about destroying elements of our democracy for partisan purposes. And people like you scare the sh**t out of me when I think about what a future America could look like after this. It's not simply a political power issue, its a sovreignty issue. Basically the government is surrending sovreignty to the large private estates that share ownership in the corporations. Its what was called the Latifundia in the Late Roman Empire and was the basis to start whittling away at the sovreignty and territorial integrity of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century A.D. Now I know we have come full circle if liberals are making comparisons to Rome. :P Rome had other issues with sovereignty beyond that, ones which I doubt you would want to make a comparison on to today's US. ;) They also had a flow of wealth out of Gaul, Italy and Iberia towards the Middle East, and the Han Empire of China. Gold for Silk (I realize its oversimplification of the trade system of 250-400 AD ) eventually leads you with a lot of useless fine clothing and no money. Plus the clothes wear out. Kind of like dollars for oil, today. This is why in 1000 AD the two centers of world finance (and ironically two ends of the same trade route) was China and the Middle East. For the first point, I guess a conservative could make an argument against immigration though the US is more structurally equiped to deal with it than Rome. ...and of course, there are slight similarities between terrorist attacks and German, Iranian and Arab raiders...mainly being that they are transient, short-lived and expensive events orchestrated by very desperate people. Oil Shieks....Chinese silk traders?...Well, I guess this is another comparison with Rome that's in order, then? Not against immigration but against Balkanization. Yes the US is structurally equipt to deal with it but we aren't able to for a variety of reasons. One is racial tension, while another is the hightened sensitivity that scares politicians from touching this issue. When we have certain places in the US where the mere presence or sight of the US Flag is feared to risk a riot, I would say that we are far less united then America could be and far more vulnerable then a country founded the way America was should be. We need a non-racial, non-religious, and even for the most part non-cultural assimilation. Rome was inherently incapable of addressing such a problem of diversity by the very nature of its structure. You had a city dominating the continent and claiming superiority over the continent and all of its people's. Yet as early as 100's AD you had Iberians and other non Roman and even non Italians on the throne. The US can address such a problem because its not founded on the basis of racial/ethnic superiority but on common values and principles that we should hope transcends all such divisions. This isn't too say the US didn't have flaws (a lot of liberal posters are saying "ah damn, he had to put that in there and prevent my opening for attack" :P). Of course the biggest problem is that the flaws clouded the message. And thus we have this potential, for a country that shouldn't ever have had to face such a problem, to potentially have to face it now. As for the barbarians crossing the border in massed hordes. One must account for technology. A terrorist crossing the border, or coming in on a shipping container with a dirty bomb would be the equivalent of the Huns or Goths coming in the tens of thousands. Yes, except also that Mercantilism is false so that there is a potential for dealing with such an outflow and that is for internal wealth creation to occur. This is something that an agrarian/merchant/craftsman based society of Ancient times couldn't achieve to a large enough extent, especially when you left vast terrorities empty except for co-opted barbarians (Goths) and you haven't developed any real technological advances that produce gains of efficiency. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Sbane on February 25, 2011, 11:40:59 PM The hammer drops. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703529004576160742045911986.html?mod=googlenews_wsj Ohio joins the party and prepares to disband public sector unions. And, thankfully, they only have majority requirements for quorum. I don't often get a little frightened and oddly hyperbolic and conspiratorial, but the amount of cheerleading you and others in this thread are doing is downright creepy considering the obvious motivations behind these moves. This is about crippling the Democratic Party electorally, this is about crippling the organizational capabilities that left-wing grassroots depends upon, this is about eliminating the only, the only, competition corporate money has in American politics. This is literally about destroying elements of our democracy for partisan purposes. And people like you scare the sh**t out of me when I think about what a future America could look like after this. It's not simply a political power issue, its a sovreignty issue. Basically the government is surrending sovreignty to the large private estates that share ownership in the corporations. Its what was called the Latifundia in the Late Roman Empire and was the basis to start whittling away at the sovreignty and territorial integrity of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century A.D. Now I know we have come full circle if liberals are making comparisons to Rome. :P Rome had other issues with sovereignty beyond that, ones which I doubt you would want to make a comparison on to today's US. ;) They also had a flow of wealth out of Gaul, Italy and Iberia towards the Middle East, and the Han Empire of China. Gold for Silk (I realize its oversimplification of the trade system of 250-400 AD ) eventually leads you with a lot of useless fine clothing and no money. Plus the clothes wear out. Kind of like dollars for oil, today. This is why in 1000 AD the two centers of world finance (and ironically two ends of the same trade route) was China and the Middle East. For the first point, I guess a conservative could make an argument against immigration though the US is more structurally equiped to deal with it than Rome. ...and of course, there are slight similarities between terrorist attacks and German, Iranian and Arab raiders...mainly being that they are transient, short-lived and expensive events orchestrated by very desperate people. Oil Shieks....Chinese silk traders?...Well, I guess this is another comparison with Rome that's in order, then? Not against immigration but against Balkanization. When we have certain places in the US where the mere presence or sight of the US Flag is feared to risk a riot, I would say that we are far less united then America could be and far more vulnerable then a country founded the way America was should be. That is absolutely ing ridiculous. There is a US flag flying on top of the damn school that caused the controversy in the first place. Stop being a dumb and realize that those kids were trying to rile up people on Cinco De Mayo. They were the ones starting the ethnic tensions, not the kids trying to celebrate Cinco De Mayo (which apparently isn't even celebrated that much in Mexico making the situation even more amusing). Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Sbane on February 25, 2011, 11:42:50 PM I mean really when people have a problem with Mexican immigrants celebrating their culture one f'in day out of the damn year, it's the people getting offended by it who are causing the divisions, not the immigrants.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on February 26, 2011, 12:32:02 AM You have a very short time to retract your factually incorrect statements and grandstanding before my opinion of you resorts to that of what it was a year ago for the following reasons:
1. WRONG INCIDENT!!!!!!!!! 2. unfair judgement and bias 3. Failling to notice who I actually laid blame for the racial tensions on (it wasn't the immigrant). Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on February 26, 2011, 12:35:32 AM And this is why America is screwed people. We can't even discuss the damn issue without immature responses and over hyper-sensitivity based gotcha moments. Part of the problem is the arrogance of some many on this damn forum. And I even mentioned this in the original damn posts. Grow up people, and get this thread back on topic.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on February 26, 2011, 01:00:16 AM And this is why America is screwed people. We can't even discuss the damn issue without immature responses and over hyper-sensitivity based gotcha moments. Part of the problem is the arrogance of some many on this damn forum. And I even mentioned this in the original damn posts. Grow up people, and get this thread back on topic. Nah, I just think you're an idiot for thinking that the amount of racial tension there is, is somehow abnormal. When it comes to anti-immigrant tension, in the modern world this is completely normal. Nearly every western country on Earth besides Canada has or has had a culture of immigrant scapegoating and inflamed tension because of legal and illegal immigration. It's a pretty natural reaction but this time,as long as immigration doesn't stay so politicized which it probably will, the tensions should go away much quicker than historically because of mixed race marriage and rapid cultural diffusion. When it comes to Blacks, well that takes absolutely no explanation. If anything relations are remarkably good for what has been done to their ethnic group over the centuries, it's only been a decade or two since rampant racist attitudes from whites have died out and yet we have a Black President. Strides are happening there. Black culture might be a little too insular but that's to be expected. So overall, America is doing pretty average to well for a nation with our myriad cultures. It's still not the optimal situation and in an economic crisis without effective leadership they'd become violent and ultra-politicized very quickly. Oh wait, that situation is probably happening we're all f'ed! Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Marokai Backbeat on February 26, 2011, 01:08:23 AM And this is why America is screwed people. We can't even discuss the damn issue without immature responses and over hyper-sensitivity based gotcha moments. Part of the problem is the arrogance of some many on this damn forum. And I even mentioned this in the original damn posts. Grow up people, and get this thread back on topic. Nah, I just think you're an idiot for thinking that the amount of racial tension there is, is somehow abnormal. When it comes to anti-immigrant tension, in the modern world this is completely normal. Nearly every western country on Earth besides Canada has or has had a culture of immigrant scapegoating and inflamed tension because of legal and illegal immigration. You're absolutely right on your broader point, but Canada has had their fair share of racial tensions too. Quebec, for instance, is given special self governing powers in immigration to Quebec because of a history of racial tensions in the province and a hostility to outsiders by the french population. Not to mention the long history of conflict between the french and english population in itself. Of course, they always dealt with these things and have crafted a relatively peaceful society given a very multicultural country, but I just thought it should be noted. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on February 26, 2011, 02:45:48 AM And this is why America is screwed people. We can't even discuss the damn issue without immature responses and over hyper-sensitivity based gotcha moments. Part of the problem is the arrogance of some many on this damn forum. And I even mentioned this in the original damn posts. Grow up people, and get this thread back on topic. Nah, I just think you're an idiot for thinking that the amount of racial tension there is, is somehow abnormal. When it comes to anti-immigrant tension, in the modern world this is completely normal. Nearly every western country on Earth besides Canada has or has had a culture of immigrant scapegoating and inflamed tension because of legal and illegal immigration. It's a pretty natural reaction but this time,as long as immigration doesn't stay so politicized which it probably will, the tensions should go away much quicker than historically because of mixed race marriage and rapid cultural diffusion. When it comes to Blacks, well that takes absolutely no explanation. If anything relations are remarkably good for what has been done to their ethnic group over the centuries, it's only been a decade or two since rampant racist attitudes from whites have died out and yet we have a Black President. Strides are happening there. Black culture might be a little too insular but that's to be expected. So overall, America is doing pretty average to well for a nation with our myriad cultures. It's still not the optimal situation and in an economic crisis without effective leadership they'd become violent and ultra-politicized very quickly. Oh wait, that situation is probably happening we're all f'ed! I don't disagree with practically anything in that damn post, yet somehow you managed to squeeze in a personal insult. Just typical. You people need to read, not skim, and think instead of guessing. I realize I ask far too much for this is a forum and people want to extract discussions where things really don't need to be including even sometimes, false paradigms and disagreements which is what half of these past few posts are. The others just a result of a failure of comprehension. And in the process we have a page and a half of stuff which nothing related to Wisconsin. I shouldn't have responded on all three comparisons about Rome but I felt oblidged to do so in a quick fashion to avoid any confusion about my first response on the matter, ironically to avoid this type of reaction later when some leftist inevitably stumpled acrossed it, read two words and went nuts. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Sbane on February 26, 2011, 03:49:03 AM You have a very short time to retract your factually incorrect statements and grandstanding before my opinion of you resorts to that of what it was a year ago for the following reasons: 1. WRONG INCIDENT!!!!!!!!! 2. unfair judgement and bias 3. Failling to notice who I actually laid blame for the racial tensions on (it wasn't the immigrant). 1. Ok, fair enough, wrong incident. What are you talking about then and was it more of a big deal than the incident I am referring to? Otherwise I don't see how I was wrong in assuming this is what you were talking about. Maybe I was wrong in assuming at all, but one would have to assume given the lack of information in that post. 2. If you weren't talking about the incident I was referring about, obviously I have no right to call you a dumb (and calling anyone a dumb is well...dumb but if people were still bringing that little incident up....), and thus I unequivocally take it back. Though now I'm curious what you were referring to..... 3. Uh...you said the US has flaws. Is that where you were trying to lay the blame? Actually one would think you are implying that the fact that there are places in the country where a US flag could cause a riot is symptomatic of the problem and the people responsible for that situation should be blamed. I am still curious what the hell you are talking about but let me just say that I doubt there is any place in the US where the sight of a US flag will cause a riot. That is a ridiculous statement and I stand behind my words there. :P Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Sbane on February 26, 2011, 03:52:30 AM By the way what was your opinion of me a year ago and why did it change? Have I been pissing you off less lately or something? :P
Also sorry for the threadsh**t but I wasn't the one talking about Rome and racial tensions in America in a thread about Wisconsin. ;) Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on February 26, 2011, 11:38:20 PM You have a very short time to retract your factually incorrect statements and grandstanding before my opinion of you resorts to that of what it was a year ago for the following reasons: 1. WRONG INCIDENT!!!!!!!!! 2. unfair judgement and bias 3. Failling to notice who I actually laid blame for the racial tensions on (it wasn't the immigrant). 1. Ok, fair enough, wrong incident. What are you talking about then and was it more of a big deal than the incident I am referring to? Otherwise I don't see how I was wrong in assuming this is what you were talking about. Maybe I was wrong in assuming at all, but one would have to assume given the lack of information in that post. 2. If you weren't talking about the incident I was referring about, obviously I have no right to call you a dumb (and calling anyone a dumb is well...dumb but if people were still bringing that little incident up....), and thus I unequivocally take it back. Though now I'm curious what you were referring to..... 3. Uh...you said the US has flaws. Is that where you were trying to lay the blame? Actually one would think you are implying that the fact that there are places in the country where a US flag could cause a riot is symptomatic of the problem and the people responsible for that situation should be blamed. I am still curious what the hell you are talking about but let me just say that I doubt there is any place in the US where the sight of a US flag will cause a riot. That is a ridiculous statement and I stand behind my words there. :P 1 Notice I didn't say cause a riot, I said "fear of causing of riot". Meaning nothing actually happen but a response was taken to the presence of a flag based on the fear (and somewhat irrational at that) that something (as in a riot) would happen. Clearly different from the events of the incident which you cited and slow, careful reading should have let you know that. :P 2. I am glad you recognize what your actions were. :P 3. No actually, the next part Quote Of course the biggest problem is that the flaws clouded the message. . If it were a thread about racial tensions, I would have gone into detail, alas this is a thread about Wisconsin, not Rome, racism and rebellion. Unfortunately that kind of has the effect of the business man "eliminating your position" for those such as yourself who would (and this case did) seek to extract details at any price. Perhaps I should say something controversial about Wisconsin as a sort of make work project for you poor deprived posters. :P Your confidence in people is reassuring. If there are places where just looking at someone can cause a riot, I wouldn't say the presence of a flag definately would not in any place at any time in the US. One can never undestand fully what makes another tick. By the way what was your opinion of me a year ago and why did it change? Have I been pissing you off less lately or something? :P Also sorry for the threadsh**t but I wasn't the one talking about Rome and racial tensions in America in a thread about Wisconsin. ;) You don't want to know. Time and improvement in actions can heal "most" wounds. Neither was I. I was just engaging in CYA to prevent something like this. I put more effort into wargamming a forum discussion then Walker did into what would happen in Wisconsin.:P And I still got the protestors in Madison. ;) Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Tender Branson on February 27, 2011, 02:35:31 AM Look at the red circle:
() LOL. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Lief 🗽 on February 27, 2011, 03:19:24 PM At least 70,000 protesters today, many more than last Saturday, despite the fact that temperatures are in the 10s and it's snowing: http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_19c56fb6-41d7-11e0-820b-001cc4c03286.html
() Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Lief 🗽 on February 27, 2011, 11:56:51 PM The number of protesters today was over 100,000 and police are allowing a few hundred to remain in the capitol after refusing to follow Walker's orders to kick them out.
Also, rumor is that one Republican State Senator (Dale Schultz) now opposes the bill: http://twitter.com/#!/wisaflcio/status/42024963183480834 Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Capitan Zapp Brannigan on February 28, 2011, 01:37:48 AM The number of protesters today was over 100,000 and police are allowing a few hundred to remain in the capitol after refusing to follow Walker's orders to kick them out. Also, rumor is that one Republican State Senator (Dale Schultz) now opposes the bill: http://twitter.com/#!/wisaflcio/status/42024963183480834 Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on March 03, 2011, 11:52:45 AM Talking Points Memo implies that even Rasmussen's polls are showing bad news for Walker now... no real numbers yet. Whether or not Walker successfully busts the unions in this term of the legislature, he seems to be completely playing into the hands of Obama 2012.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2011/03/rasmussen_walker_flailing.php#more?ref=fpblg Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on March 03, 2011, 11:58:33 AM The bit about younger voters being more pro-union is kind of notable, now most people would say it's not surprising that youngs have more liberal views, but unionization is something people tend to association with olds as unions were far more relevant back then.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on March 03, 2011, 12:12:40 PM The bit about younger voters being more pro-union is kind of notable, now most people would say it's not surprising that youngs have more liberal views, but unionization is something people tend to association with olds as unions were far more relevant back then. I wonder if it's because the biggest group affected is the teachers. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Linus Van Pelt on March 03, 2011, 12:39:28 PM The poll brittain33 was mentioning is now out; it's a poll just of Wisconsin, with the Rasmussen Likely Voter screen applied. (link) (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_state_surveys/wisconsin/wisconsin_poll_support_for_budget_cutting_not_for_weakening_collective_bargaining_rights).
52-39 against weakening collective barganing rights 44-38 in favor of a 10% pay cut for all state workers 49% of voters, and 58% of those with children in the public school system, say it's a good thing that most teachers belong to a union. Regarding this last statistic in particular, I do think that certain market-liberal type people, including some on this forum, not all of whom are fervent conservatives, are out of whack in their perceptions of how middle American parents see the teachers. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 03, 2011, 02:57:56 PM http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/03/senate-gop-wisconsin-order-police-awol-dems-custody/#
Republicans in the Wisconsin Senate passed a resolution Thursday calling for police to take 14 Democrats into custody for contempt after they fled to Illinois to avoid voting on a bill that would strip public-sector unions of nearly all their collective bargaining rights. It's about time we rounded these rogues up. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on March 03, 2011, 03:36:24 PM I can match krazen's swagger. :) That resolution has no power as long as they are not in Wisconsin, right?
One of the senators arranged to get his paycheck while out-of-state by granting power of attorney to his staff members to claim it for him. The Republicans folded and gave it to him. http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/03/awol-wisconsin-dem-beats-the-system-gets-his-paycheck-mailed-to-him.php?ref=fpblg Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Capitan Zapp Brannigan on March 03, 2011, 04:02:17 PM From the Rasmussen poll:
Among those asked about the state budget deficit, 52% supported the Democrats and 44% supported the Governor. Most of those 50 and over support the Governor, 40-somethings are evenly divided, and those under 40 support the Democrats. Among those asked about weakening collective bargaining rights, 56% supported the union and 41% supported the Governor. There is a similar age dynamic on this question, even though the overall level of support for the Governor is lower. Not good numbers for Walker. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Lief 🗽 on March 03, 2011, 04:38:54 PM Wow, when even Rasmussen is showing numbers like that, you know the jig is up.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 03, 2011, 04:56:30 PM I can match krazen's swagger. :) That resolution has no power as long as they are not in Wisconsin, right? One of the senators arranged to get his paycheck while out-of-state by granting power of attorney to his staff members to claim it for him. The Republicans folded and gave it to him. http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/03/awol-wisconsin-dem-beats-the-system-gets-his-paycheck-mailed-to-him.php?ref=fpblg I'm not a lawyer, but I believe that to be the case. I wonder if any of these people wants to see their families. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Dgov on March 03, 2011, 08:26:48 PM I can match krazen's swagger. :) That resolution has no power as long as they are not in Wisconsin, right? One of the senators arranged to get his paycheck while out-of-state by granting power of attorney to his staff members to claim it for him. The Republicans folded and gave it to him. http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/03/awol-wisconsin-dem-beats-the-system-gets-his-paycheck-mailed-to-him.php?ref=fpblg I'm not a lawyer, but I believe that to be the case. I wonder if any of these people wants to see their families. Their families can just head on down to Illinois to see them. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Torie on March 03, 2011, 11:23:07 PM Wow, when even Rasmussen is showing numbers like that, you know the jig is up. The Pubbies cannot afford to back down, and won't. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Capitan Zapp Brannigan on March 03, 2011, 11:42:23 PM Wow, when even Rasmussen is showing numbers like that, you know the jig is up. The Pubbies cannot afford to back down, and won't. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Landslide Lyndon on March 04, 2011, 01:40:36 AM Wow, when even Rasmussen is showing numbers like that, you know the jig is up. The Pubbies cannot afford to back down, and won't. Wouldn't it be funny if Democrats regain control of the Wisconsin senate through recall elections? I guess all that gone into fine maps maximizing Republican gains would go wasted. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on March 04, 2011, 01:42:11 AM Wow, when even Rasmussen is showing numbers like that, you know the jig is up. The Pubbies cannot afford to back down, and won't. One already has, and we just need two more. There have to be at least two recently elected from marginal districts. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on March 04, 2011, 01:54:48 AM Wow, when even Rasmussen is showing numbers like that, you know the jig is up. The Pubbies cannot afford to back down, and won't. One already has, and we just need two more. There have to be at least two recently elected from marginal districts. In Ohio a few Republican Senators buckled as well with regards to Kasich's nonsense. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Torie on March 04, 2011, 02:13:24 AM Wow, when even Rasmussen is showing numbers like that, you know the jig is up. The Pubbies cannot afford to back down, and won't. One already has, and we just need two more. There have to be at least two recently elected from marginal districts. Didn't know that. Do you have a link to an article about it? I would like to read it. Thanks BRTD. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Marokai Backbeat on March 04, 2011, 02:37:25 AM Wow, when even Rasmussen is showing numbers like that, you know the jig is up. The Pubbies cannot afford to back down, and won't. One already has, and we just need two more. There have to be at least two recently elected from marginal districts. In Ohio a few Republican Senators buckled as well with regards to Kasich's nonsense. Six, in fact. (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/03/us/03states.html) Unfortunately, it still passed 17-16, but there are hopes of repealing the law via referendum. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Landslide Lyndon on March 04, 2011, 02:44:02 AM Wow, when even Rasmussen is showing numbers like that, you know the jig is up. The Pubbies cannot afford to back down, and won't. One already has, and we just need two more. There have to be at least two recently elected from marginal districts. In Ohio a few Republican Senators buckled as well with regards to Kasich's nonsense. Six, in fact. (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/03/us/03states.html) Unfortunately, it still passed 17-16, but there are hopes of repealing the law via referendum. I guess the shoe will be on the other foot in 2012. Like the gay marriage amendment increased turnout in 2004, a possible repeal of the union busting law can bring to the polls union workers and ultimately help Obama carry the state. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Marokai Backbeat on March 04, 2011, 02:47:34 AM Wow, when even Rasmussen is showing numbers like that, you know the jig is up. The Pubbies cannot afford to back down, and won't. One already has, and we just need two more. There have to be at least two recently elected from marginal districts. In Ohio a few Republican Senators buckled as well with regards to Kasich's nonsense. Six, in fact. (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/03/us/03states.html) Unfortunately, it still passed 17-16, but there are hopes of repealing the law via referendum. I guess the shoe will be on the other foot in 2012. Like the gay marriage amendment increased turnout in 2004, a possible repeal of the union busting law can bring to the polls union workers and ultimately help Obama carry the state. Even if it doesn't (though I think you are correct on that), there are plenty of Republicans in this state and across the country that, given the option to defend union rights separately, would absolutely do so. Even my conservative grandparents who have never voted Democratic in their entire lives support the rights of unions. I hate referenda on principle, but I have faith this state, if given the option, would vote in one to protect them. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on March 04, 2011, 07:51:17 AM Wow, when even Rasmussen is showing numbers like that, you know the jig is up. The Pubbies cannot afford to back down, and won't. Walker can't afford to back down. But it's not just him. Eight Republican senators are eligible for recall elections and Daily Kos is coordinating an effort to gather signatures. Some of them are from districts that won't elect a Democrat even though Obama narrowly won in '08... some are from more Democratic districts than that. I doubt all of them want to face a union-powered recall over the issue of collective bargaining when the unions have already offered big concessions on money. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 04, 2011, 09:04:09 AM Six, in fact. (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/03/us/03states.html) Unfortunately, it still passed 17-16, but there are hopes of repealing the law via referendum. How coincidental. Ohio Democrats and the AFL-CIO rammed through the original bill permitting state unions in 1983 on a 17-16 vote. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 04, 2011, 09:16:33 AM Are they caving?
http://wtaq.com/news/articles/2011/mar/04/senate-dem-gives-hope-gop-not-supporting-budget/ MADISON, Wis. (WTAQ) - State Senate Democrat Bob Jauch says he’s given up hope that more Republicans will jump ship on the governor’s plan to limit public union bargaining. Three Republicans would have to vote with the minority Democrats to strike down the bargaining provisions. But only Dale Schultz of Richland Center has broken ranks with his GOP. And Jauch – the veteran senator from Poplar – says he no longer believes Democrats can convince two other Republicans to compromise. As a result, he says the bill’s opponents will have to look for other ways to protect unionized public employees. Jauch told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, “In order to kill this bill, we could never go home – that’s not practical, and most people realize it.” No, sir it is not. Perhaps when the Democrats win their majority back they can repay the unions. /sarcasm Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on March 04, 2011, 09:24:32 AM Hrm, good find. The Dems had said that they stand together and won't allow only one or two to go back and provide the quorum... provided that still stands, we'll have to see if they cave, or if other senators echo what he said. The Dems really do have the momentum here and the issue can be forced prior to 2012 if signatures to get recalls underway really do get going. But I understand his point, if it comes down to them staying away for two years, that's not going to happen.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on March 04, 2011, 09:35:06 AM Not that it's particularly relevant to this conversation, but who is funding their road trip?
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: John Dibble on March 04, 2011, 09:40:14 AM So the Governor appears to have a new plan to get the absent Senators to come - if at least one of them doesn't return he's going to lay off 1500 state employees.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gonDqbQyZ7R9lVE4iUGJGvOZ_cVw?docId=a5b696440e54416e81d2c6968e2a4917 Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Verily on March 04, 2011, 09:42:27 AM Wow, when even Rasmussen is showing numbers like that, you know the jig is up. The Pubbies cannot afford to back down, and won't. They may not have to. Recall petitions are already circulating on the eight GOP Senators who currently qualify for a recall. Of them, two were reelected by a combined margin of less than 2,000 votes in 2010--a rather ominous sign for a recall election--while a couple of others also represent marginal seats. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Horus on March 04, 2011, 10:21:31 AM The whole bill actually wouldn't bother me that much if police were subjected to the same penalties. Police always get off far better than other public employees, and that needs to stop, because they are the most likely to abuse the system in the first place!
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: cinyc on March 04, 2011, 02:06:01 PM Wow, when even Rasmussen is showing numbers like that, you know the jig is up. The Pubbies cannot afford to back down, and won't. They may not have to. Recall petitions are already circulating on the eight GOP Senators who currently qualify for a recall. Of them, two were reelected by a combined margin of less than 2,000 votes in 2010--a rather ominous sign for a recall election--while a couple of others also represent marginal seats. Recalls can work both ways, you know. Cowards who flee the state to avoid doing their jobs are subject to recall, too. It would be quite a shame if the two DEMOCRATS who won by less than 2,000 votes in 2010 were subject to recall, especially the Democrat who won 401 votes. Oh, and by the way, if the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel's numbers (http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/105000829.html) are right, NO Republicans won by less than 2,000 votes in 2010. Maybe 2008? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on March 04, 2011, 02:18:46 PM Cinyc, go for it. I could have made the same argument in '09 that voting against health care reform was going to be deadly for Republicans in Obama districts. I would love to live in a world where obstructionism was punished... instead I live in the world where the 2010 election happens. That's the template.
Even Rasmussen has Walker's disapproval rating up to 57%. http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_state_surveys/wisconsin/wisconsin_governor_walker_43_approval_rating The polling shows the public is very much not on the Republicans' side. I didn't predict this would be the outcome, and I'm surprised to see them rallying to the unions' side. Like many here, I thought unions and teachers were less popular than they were. I think both sides of senators can see where the future lies, and also which party is more overextended in the Wisconsin legislature based on partisan fundamentals. I think the last thing Walker wants is to have to take this back to the voters in recalls, either in offense or defense... their plan was to ram this partisan bill through the legislature without people noticing and hope it only made them stronger. It's already too late for that. Which Republican senator wants to be the next Suzanne Kosmas? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on March 04, 2011, 02:22:25 PM BTW, the Rasmussen poll shows Walker tanking among voters with children in schools. That was the Republicans' base--solid, traditional, middle class American families, not unmarrieds. Bad move.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on March 04, 2011, 03:06:06 PM BTW, the Rasmussen poll shows Walker tanking among voters with children in schools. That was the Republicans' base--solid, traditional, middle class American families, not unmarrieds. Bad move. How shocking that parents don't think that schools are dens of depravity. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Dan the Roman on March 04, 2011, 04:03:19 PM Wow, when even Rasmussen is showing numbers like that, you know the jig is up. The Pubbies cannot afford to back down, and won't. They may not have to. Recall petitions are already circulating on the eight GOP Senators who currently qualify for a recall. Of them, two were reelected by a combined margin of less than 2,000 votes in 2010--a rather ominous sign for a recall election--while a couple of others also represent marginal seats. Recalls can work both ways, you know. Cowards who flee the state to avoid doing their jobs are subject to recall, too. It would be quite a shame if the two DEMOCRATS who won by less than 2,000 votes in 2010 were subject to recall, especially the Democrat who won 401 votes. Oh, and by the way, if the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel's numbers (http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/105000829.html) are right, NO Republicans won by less than 2,000 votes in 2010. Maybe 2008? Actually neither group is eligible for recall. Only those Senators elected in 2008 are eligible, which means there are probably more vulnerable Democrats than Republicans. Frankly though, SSP posted a PVI index for the districts and most of the Democrats hold pretty safe districts. The two most vulnerable who are eligible for recall are 56% and 59% Obama respectively. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 04, 2011, 07:28:48 PM http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/140-green-bay-teachers-looking-to-retire
REEN BAY - The Green Bay School Board has approved a large number of retirement requests from teachers and administrators. With the future of the state budget uncertain, 140 teachers and 15 administrators asked to join the emeritus program. That works out to about 1 out of every 12 teachers in the district. The emeritus program gives one full year's salary paid over three years. That is in addition to pension benefits. In return, the retiree provides 10 days of service to the district each year during that time. The emeritus program is something that has been negotiated into the teachers' contract through collective bargaining. 1 year salary for 30 days of work.....Can someone explain to me what the purpose of an 'emeritus' program is? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on March 04, 2011, 08:12:52 PM 1 year salary for 30 days of work..... Can someone explain to me what the purpose of an 'emeritus' program is? You are being inconsistent. They aren't being a full year's salary under your usual method of calculating their salary, which includes benefits. Since they are already getting those benefits as "retirees" and don't get double benefits, they are being paid considerably less than a year's salary to be available as emeriti. As for what the purpose is besides gouging money from their employer, one reason might be to encourage older teachers to retire, tho I agree getting paid at that rate seems excessive for that purpose. Another would be to have a pool of experienced teachers available to either mentor new teachers or act as substitute teachers who can do more than just babysit a class for a day. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: cinyc on March 04, 2011, 08:26:41 PM 1 year salary for 30 days of work..... Can someone explain to me what the purpose of an 'emeritus' program is? You are being inconsistent. They aren't being a full year's salary under your usual method of calculating their salary, which includes benefits. Since they are already getting those benefits as "retirees" and don't get double benefits, they are being paid considerably less than a year's salary to be available as emeriti. As for what the purpose is besides gouging money from their employer, one reason might be to encourage older teachers to retire, tho I agree getting paid at that rate seems excessive for that purpose. Another would be to have a pool of experienced teachers available to either mentor new teachers or act as substitute teachers who can do more than just babysit a class for a day. If the retired teachers made $75,000 per year, they are getting paid $25,000 each year over three years to retire. As long as the new hires make $25,000 less per year in pay and benefits than the retirees (i.e. salary is below $50,000 or salary plus benefits is $25,000 less than the cost of an experienced teacher), the district is better off financially. New hires might also be in a different pension benefit level with a lower required employer contribution. Or there might not be a new hire replacement at all, saving money. FICA taxes and other benefit payments might skew the math a bit to make the $25,000 in my hypothetical, $30,000 or $35,000 - but you get the point. It sometimes makes economic sense to pay senior employees to retire. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Verily on March 04, 2011, 09:02:38 PM Wow, when even Rasmussen is showing numbers like that, you know the jig is up. The Pubbies cannot afford to back down, and won't. They may not have to. Recall petitions are already circulating on the eight GOP Senators who currently qualify for a recall. Of them, two were reelected by a combined margin of less than 2,000 votes in 2010--a rather ominous sign for a recall election--while a couple of others also represent marginal seats. Recalls can work both ways, you know. Cowards who flee the state to avoid doing their jobs are subject to recall, too. It would be quite a shame if the two DEMOCRATS who won by less than 2,000 votes in 2010 were subject to recall, especially the Democrat who won 401 votes. Oh, and by the way, if the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel's numbers (http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/105000829.html) are right, NO Republicans won by less than 2,000 votes in 2010. Maybe 2008? Ah, right, must have been 2008 because you can't be recalled within a year of election (which is why no one is trying to recall Walker, for example). Also, polling has shown pretty strong support for the Democratic side in Wisconsin by the voters, so I doubt the Democrats would do worse in recalls. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 04, 2011, 09:26:23 PM 1 year salary for 30 days of work..... Can someone explain to me what the purpose of an 'emeritus' program is? You are being inconsistent. They aren't being a full year's salary under your usual method of calculating their salary, which includes benefits. Since they are already getting those benefits as "retirees" and don't get double benefits, they are being paid considerably less than a year's salary to be available as emeriti. As for what the purpose is besides gouging money from their employer, one reason might be to encourage older teachers to retire, tho I agree getting paid at that rate seems excessive for that purpose. Another would be to have a pool of experienced teachers available to either mentor new teachers or act as substitute teachers who can do more than just babysit a class for a day. If the idea is get someone to retire, one would think that the salary structure could be changed, to not reward mere seniority so much, along with their LIFO policy. Why do we pay older teachers so much more if we don't want them around? And why wouldn't we just fire them if we don't want them around? Personally, I differentiate between the words salary and compensation. 'Payment' might mean either of the 2, but imo salary is quite clearly cash/income based. Edit: You are somewhat correct about the purpose, it seems. Under the purview of the odd seniority based salary increases, it is designed as a cost reducer. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on March 04, 2011, 09:33:28 PM Personally, I differentiate between the words salary and compensation. 'Payment' might mean either of the 2, but imo salary is quite clearly cash/income based. Don't bother trying to hide behind what the meaning of is is. If anti-union conservatives are going to complain about what teachers are being paid, all I ask is that you be consistent about which yardstick is used to measure payment. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Capitan Zapp Brannigan on March 04, 2011, 10:06:55 PM http://mms.tveyes.com/Transcript.asp?StationID=5100&DateTime=3/1/2011+5:02:32+AM&Term=%22AFL+CIO%22&PlayClip=TRUE
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2011/03/are_wisconsin_republicans_gett.html Looks like some of the Republicans might be wavering. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on March 04, 2011, 10:32:37 PM There are three Republicans who barely won last time who are recall-eligible, one whose district is based around Oshkosh with some more conservative areas, one who has a district based around La Crosse and some Democratic rural areas and one who must be a really lousy politician as her seat is mostly northern Milwaukee suburbs (part goes very close to the city though so it's probably more swing than it appears at a casual glance.) The La Crosse one strikes me as the best target even though he won by the widest margin. The Oshkosh one who won by about a hundred votes is obviously a very ripe target as well. Of course if these two fold, it might save their jobs.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Torie on March 05, 2011, 09:45:38 PM There are three Republicans who barely won last time who are recall-eligible, one whose district is based around Oshkosh with some more conservative areas, one who has a district based around La Crosse and some Democratic rural areas and one who must be a really lousy politician as her seat is mostly northern Milwaukee suburbs (part goes very close to the city though so it's probably more swing than it appears at a casual glance.) The La Crosse one strikes me as the best target even though he won by the widest margin. The Oshkosh one who won by about a hundred votes is obviously a very ripe target as well. Of course if these two fold, it might save their jobs. Won't the Pubbies gerrymander the sh*t out of the state, and make the marginals safe? If so, even if a couple of Dems sneak in, presumably they will be bounced right back out in 2012. Wisconsin is a pretty easy state to gerrymander with smaller districts. The problem with WI-03, is that too much population was involved to carve out GOP pockets. The balance of the Dems are packed mostly in three spots, that can be pretty tightly circumscribed. It should not be too hard to give the GOP a hammerlock on 60% of the seats, and thus a quorum. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: ag on March 05, 2011, 09:56:57 PM Then they should do the gerrymander fast. Because if Dems manage the recall thing before that, their agreement might be needed for whatever gerrymander gets adopted.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Torie on March 05, 2011, 10:04:00 PM Then they should do the gerrymander fast. Because if Dems manage the recall thing before that, their agreement might be needed for whatever gerrymander gets adopted. What is the time line for the recall thing? The Pubbies are doing the same thing of course. When might the interim election be? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on March 05, 2011, 10:38:12 PM The difference is that all the Democrats remaining are in pretty safe districts. And there's not much you can do to shore up the La Crosse-based seat, even all the rural areas around it are Democratic.
God I hate talking about or hearing about La Crosse. :( Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Torie on March 05, 2011, 10:43:34 PM The difference is that all the Democrats remaining are in pretty safe districts. And there's not much you can do to shore up the La Crosse-based seat, even all the rural areas around it are Democratic. God I hate talking about or hearing about La Crosse. :( A senate district in Wisconsin needs a big hunk of voters outside the county? In any event, there is some marginal territory around it. It would be a snap, when you can move your mouse around with no legal constraints. How many folks are in a Wisconsin state senate district? I'll draw it for you. :P Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on March 05, 2011, 10:46:19 PM There's 33 districts. You need about 170k people per district. And Senate districts aren't drawn themselves, they are made by combining three Assembly districts.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Torie on March 05, 2011, 10:50:37 PM There's 33 districts. You need about 170k people per district. And Senate districts aren't drawn themselves, they are made by combining three Assembly districts. Any restrictions on how the assembly seats are drawn? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on March 05, 2011, 10:55:59 PM Not that I know of. But this (http://legis.wisconsin.gov//Senate/sen32/Sdist32.pdf) is the current seat and because of that you can't split La Crosse as they wouldn't want a 67% Obama city making up half of two Assembly districts. So you could add it to some "marginal" territory perhaps, but probably the absolute best you're getting in that area is like 57% Obama or so. It doesn't help that most of that "marginal" territory already belongs to another Republican State Senator (granted he is the one who has already caved, but he's also been in a long time so I don't see him being thrown under the bus for an attempt to save someone which may not work anyway.)
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Torie on March 05, 2011, 11:05:10 PM Oh what a fun project for me! :P
What are the stats of the current La Cross based Senate district I wonder? It looks like Bush 2004 carried it, by maybe 52-48 or something. Is a Dem holding it currently? If he is, I suspect he is in the cross hairs of a Pubbie recall. Why can't you Dem pack one of the 3 assembly districts in whatever senate district the Pubbies draw? Wouldn't that take care of that? And I have a lot of practice in Dem packing. I'm the master of the art really. :) By the way, the WSJ article is going to be published soon on redistricting games played by the folks, and this site is going to get a lot more attention I suspect. We shall see. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Linus Van Pelt on March 05, 2011, 11:12:40 PM Oh what a fun project for me! :P What are the stats of the current La Cross based Senate district I wonder? It looks like Bush 2004 carried it, by maybe 52-48 or something. Is a Dem holding it currently? If he is, I suspect he is in the cross hairs of a Pubbie recall. The district in question was 53-46 Kerry and 61-38 Obama, per SSP. (http://www.swingstateproject.com/diary/8405/wisconsin-presidential-results-by-state-senate-district) Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Torie on March 05, 2011, 11:24:06 PM Oh what a fun project for me! :P What are the stats of the current La Cross based Senate district I wonder? It looks like Bush 2004 carried it, by maybe 52-48 or something. Is a Dem holding it currently? If he is, I suspect he is in the cross hairs of a Pubbie recall. The district in question was 53-46 Kerry and 61-38 Obama, per SSP. (http://www.swingstateproject.com/diary/8405/wisconsin-presidential-results-by-state-senate-district) Thanks. We shall see what the possibilities are. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 05, 2011, 11:24:13 PM Oh what a fun project for me! :P What are the stats of the current La Cross based Senate district I wonder? It looks like Bush 2004 carried it, by maybe 52-48 or something. Is a Dem holding it currently? If he is, I suspect he is in the cross hairs of a Pubbie recall. Why can't you Dem pack one of the 3 assembly districts in whatever senate district the Pubbies draw? Wouldn't that take care of that? And I have a lot of practice in Dem packing. I'm the master of the art really. :) By the way, the WSJ article is going to be published soon on redistricting games played by the folks, and this site is going to get a lot more attention I suspect. We shall see. It's hard to pack Wisconsin given the rural swings. Rural Wisconsin went mostly for Bush in 2004, and almost entirely slightly for Obama in 2008. I looked at the Senate district map; it looks like 2 or so Democrats could be eliminated and 2 or 3 could be packed. Beyond that you have to crack the Milwaukee suburban area. This might call for redistricting twice. Once before these recalls, and once before the general elections scheduled in 2012. It's really crass, but then again so is quorum denial. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Torie on March 05, 2011, 11:29:45 PM Quote This might call for redistricting twice. Once before these recalls, and once before the general elections scheduled in 2012. It's really crass, but then again so is quorum denial. Wow, just wow. Very creative Krazen! But unwise. A double draw would backfire. Even I can't quite go there. :) Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on March 06, 2011, 07:19:11 PM The thing with Wisconsin is because of the way the state can swing you just can't draw a wave-proof map (for either party). And the GOP certainly can't assume all elections will be 2010 (though with the arrogance I'm hearing it sounds like they will), and with the current status of support for Walker and his policies and the way Obama looks in the state for 2012 against opposition it's clearly 2012 probably isn't going to be that.
Now they might manage to save a few seats via gerrymandering but you simply can't draw a solid GOP seat around La Crosse, period. So if the situation continues with support for Walker there being no doubt what it is, that seat is going to be lost. The guy might flip to try to save himself like his neighbor, but there's really simply no way to lock him up. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Capitan Zapp Brannigan on March 06, 2011, 07:42:07 PM New poll commissioned by pro-market think tank mirrors the Rasmussen poll in showing Walker and his proposal unpopular.
http://www.wpri.org/polls/March2011/poll0311.html Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Marokai Backbeat on March 06, 2011, 07:45:48 PM Where is Cinyc to argue how Walker and the Republicans are defying the will of the people? (Or does that only apply when Democrats defy the "will of the people"?)
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on March 06, 2011, 07:48:23 PM Actually in a rather Orwellian twist the Republicans are arguing that Walker rather has the SUPPORT of the people. Just check out the Gubernatorial board, it's full of spin about how these numbers aren't "that bad" for Walker. Even one Republicans has flat out argued the difference between health care reform and what Walker is pushing is Walker has the majority support...though the polls show more support for HCR. This is even more ridiculous than some of the arguments I heard from die-hard Hillary idiots about how Obama was "selected, not elected" by the superdelegates.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: memphis on March 06, 2011, 07:56:56 PM New poll commissioned by pro-market think tank mirrors the Rasmussen poll in showing Walker and his proposal unpopular. http://www.wpri.org/polls/March2011/poll0311.html About twice as many people (72 percent) either somewhat or strongly favor raising income taxes on people making over $150,000 a year as oppose it (27 percent). Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Landslide Lyndon on March 06, 2011, 08:36:47 PM New poll commissioned by pro-market think tank mirrors the Rasmussen poll in showing Walker and his proposal unpopular. http://www.wpri.org/polls/March2011/poll0311.html About twice as many people (72 percent) either somewhat or strongly favor raising income taxes on people making over $150,000 a year as oppose it (27 percent). Alas, once again reality has a strong liberal bias. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on March 06, 2011, 08:39:37 PM So much for the "treacherous" Democrats being less popular than Walker:
Quote Walker: Slightly more than half (53 percent) of the respondents have a somewhat or strongly unfavorable opinion of Walker while 43 percent have a somewhat or strongly favorable opinion of him. In a November WPRI poll shortly after Walker was elected, a slightly higher percentage (45 percent) had a somewhat or strongly favorable opinion of him while 35 percent had a somewhat or strongly unfavorable opinion of him and 20 percent either didn’t know or had never heard of him. Almost two-thirds of respondents (65 percent) say he should compromise with Democrats and public employee unions while one-third (33 percent) say he should stand strong no matter how long protests last. “Not surprisingly, this is driven largely by partisan dynamics. About 77 percent of Republicans think the governor should stand strong and 94 percent of Democrats want a compromise. The key here is independents. Independents overwhelmingly want the governor to compromise with 68 percent believing he should do so and 29 percent thinking he should stand strong.” Goldstein said. Public employee unions: In the most recent poll, almost six out of ten respondents (59 percent) had a somewhat or strongly favorable opinion of public employee unions. Thirty-four percent had a somewhat or strongly unfavorable opinion. Senate Democrats: Fifty-one percent disapprove of Senate Democrats’ decision to leave the state in order to prevent passage of the budget repair bill while 47 percent approve. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Lunar on March 06, 2011, 10:15:45 PM GAME OVER
http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheat-sheet/item/wisconsin-democrats-to-end-exile/game-over/ Title: Re: Game Over: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Ban my account ffs! on March 06, 2011, 11:42:00 PM GAME OVER http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheat-sheet/item/wisconsin-democrats-to-end-exile/game-over/ http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/03/wisconsin-dems-deny-wsj-report-of-imminent-return.php?ref=fpblg The game isn't over until collective bargaining is off the table. The senate minority leader was simply saying that they would return when that happened, and he believed that will be sooner rather than later because of growing public opposition to Walker's plan. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on March 06, 2011, 11:49:55 PM Yeah there are signs that two more Republicans might fall. I'm comfortable predicting there is no way the guy from La Crosse gets re-elected unless he flips on this.
Title: Re: Game Over: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Dgov on March 06, 2011, 11:55:41 PM GAME OVER http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheat-sheet/item/wisconsin-democrats-to-end-exile/game-over/ http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/03/wisconsin-dems-deny-wsj-report-of-imminent-return.php?ref=fpblg The game isn't over until collective bargaining is off the table. The senate minority leader was simply saying that they would return when that happened, and he believed that will be sooner rather than later because of growing public opposition to Walker's plan. EDIT: Links exist to be clicked Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Capitan Zapp Brannigan on March 07, 2011, 12:07:43 AM And in the link that you quoted they refuted those statements made to the WSJ.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Dgov on March 07, 2011, 12:10:35 AM And in the link that you quoted they refuted those statements made to the WSJ. *Slaps self Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: The Dowager Mod on March 08, 2011, 11:57:41 PM The signature collection for the recalls was 35% above expected this weekend. :)
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on March 09, 2011, 08:50:01 AM The signature collection for the recalls was 35% above expected this weekend. :) Is this for recalls of Dem senators as well as for Republican senators, or only the Dem efforts? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: The Dowager Mod on March 09, 2011, 07:13:12 PM Just the republicans.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Capitan Zapp Brannigan on March 09, 2011, 07:19:15 PM Graeme Zielinski, a spokesman for the Wisconsin Democratic Party, said activists had 20% of the signatures needed in one district and 25% of those needed in another. Mr. Zielinski declined to identify the senators, saying "We'd like to keep them guessing."
From a WSJ article here: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703662804576189002398082020.html Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: The Dowager Mod on March 09, 2011, 07:20:52 PM None of the Dems are in any danger, at least 2 of the republicans are in deep doodoo.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Landslide Lyndon on March 09, 2011, 07:28:26 PM These guys are getting pretty desperate. At least they dropped any pretension that it's all about fiscal responsibility and balancing budgets.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/weigel/archive/2011/03/09/wisconsin-senate-gop-tries-nuclear-option-for-passing-anti-union-bill.aspx (http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/weigel/archive/2011/03/09/wisconsin-senate-gop-tries-nuclear-option-for-passing-anti-union-bill.aspx) Up to now, the Budget Repair Bill in Wisconsin has been frozen because all fourteen Senate Democrats will not return to the state to negotiate it. There's no quorum -- the bill, which consists of many fiscal components, can't pass. Republicans in the Senate are trying an end run around that now. They have called a conference committee meeting -- which is open to the media -- where the fiscal components of the bill will be stripped out. That would allow the stripped-down bill to pass the Senate with no Democrats present. This is incoherent in a number of ways. First, Gov. Scott Walker's argument for not putting the collective bargaining and union dues/formation reforms on the negotiating table has been, since the beginning, that they were necessary for letting local governments balance their budgets. These only fail to be "fiscal components" if the definition of "fiscal" is limited to numbers that will appear in the legislation. Second, Republicans punted on a voting reform bill two weeks ago because they did not want to split the fiscal portions of the bill -- funding for IDs, for those who couldn't afford them -- from the rest of it. This is a desperation move. It's happening, say Democrats, before they read the new bill. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Dgov on March 09, 2011, 08:04:05 PM And it looks like its done. Passed 18-1, so it'll go back to the House (since's its technically a different version of the bill, even if it is just a part of another existing one), but Republicans there should pass it easily into law.
And now the democrats have no discernible reason to stay in Illinois (since they supposedly conceded on the budget part already). Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Franzl on March 09, 2011, 08:18:42 PM lol
Why wasn't this done sooner? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Marokai Backbeat on March 09, 2011, 08:21:17 PM Using public policy for political purposes. Republicans do it better than anyone.
At least the Democrats put up a good fight. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Smash255 on March 09, 2011, 08:22:31 PM Seems like some notification law about this action was broken (just put on CNN and heard the end of the discussion), but under the law 24 hours are suppose to be given for something like this and 2 hours under emergency procedure, none of which was followed.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Dgov on March 09, 2011, 08:25:16 PM Seems like some notification law about this action was broken (just put on CNN and heard the end of the discussion), but under the law 24 hours are suppose to be given for something like this and 2 hours under emergency procedure, none of which was followed. From what I understand, the Republicans just cut out all the budgetary parts of the current bill, so i don't think that applies. There's nothing "new" in this bill, which is why they can do this. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Smash255 on March 09, 2011, 08:28:15 PM Seems like some notification law about this action was broken (just put on CNN and heard the end of the discussion), but under the law 24 hours are suppose to be given for something like this and 2 hours under emergency procedure, none of which was followed. From what I understand, the Republicans just cut out all the budgetary parts of the current bill, so i don't think that applies. There's nothing "new" in this bill, which is why they can do this. I'm no expert on this particular law, just saying what I heard, it seemed like making that changed is what required the 24 hour notification. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Sbane on March 09, 2011, 08:28:58 PM So what exactly passed in the end?
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Dgov on March 09, 2011, 08:30:51 PM So what exactly passed in the end? Basically, The Unions can no longer legally collectively bargain for benefits/working rules (i.e. vacation days, sick leave, health plans, etc.). There were some changes to bargaining rights over salaries, but I those are still mostly intact. i think everything else was cut out. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Smash255 on March 09, 2011, 08:33:37 PM So what exactly passed in the end? Basically the collective bargaining rights they were trying to strip they were able to strip. They did so by taking it out of the budget process saying it had no impact on the budget. So they argued that this needed to be done because of its impact on the budget, but passed it through a way which it couldn't impact the budget. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Dgov on March 09, 2011, 08:50:39 PM None of the Dems are in any danger, at least 2 of the republicans are in deep doodoo. Looking at the data, the Republicans are probably fine, at least until next year. Wisconsin law prevents elected officials from being recalled until they have served at least a full year in their elected office--which means that the only Republicans the Democrats can target are the ones that were elected in 2008--a much worse environment for the Republican party than currently (PPP has walker down 7 to Barrett in a theoretical poll in the middle of a terrible media cycle for him. In 2008 the State elected Obama over the much more Moderate McCain by like 14 points) Add on top that this would be an off-off-year election (where Democrats tend to do much worse than in say, national presidential elections), and I'd say any actual recall elections are going to wind up being much less favorable to the Democrats than you seem to think. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Smash255 on March 09, 2011, 09:07:37 PM Holy Crap just saw how this unfolded, Insane
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Capitan Zapp Brannigan on March 09, 2011, 09:24:42 PM None of the Dems are in any danger, at least 2 of the republicans are in deep doodoo. Looking at the data, the Republicans are probably fine, at least until next year. Wisconsin law prevents elected officials from being recalled until they have served at least a full year in their elected office--which means that the only Republicans the Democrats can target are the ones that were elected in 2008--a much worse environment for the Republican party than currently (PPP has walker down 7 to Barrett in a theoretical poll in the middle of a terrible media cycle for him. In 2008 the State elected Obama over the much more Moderate McCain by like 14 points) Add on top that this would be an off-off-year election (where Democrats tend to do much worse than in say, national presidential elections), and I'd say any actual recall elections are going to wind up being much less favorable to the Democrats than you seem to think. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Smash255 on March 09, 2011, 09:29:59 PM Very bizarre.
During the discussion on the issue, a Democratic Assemblyman was reading off the open meetings rule requiring 24 hours notice. Then all of a sudden as he is speaking the GOP State Senators call for a roll call and vote on the issue. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/41998976#41998976 Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 09, 2011, 09:34:25 PM Using public policy for political purposes. Republicans do it better than anyone. At least the Democrats put up a good fight. Nope. Not quite as well as the Democrats did to create public sector unions in Ohio in 1983. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 09, 2011, 09:59:08 PM Violence?
http://mobile.twitter.com/news3jessica#45596184525537280 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svsgvqyr0rQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Marokai Backbeat on March 09, 2011, 10:11:41 PM Using public policy for political purposes. Republicans do it better than anyone. At least the Democrats put up a good fight. Nope. Not quite as well as the Democrats did to create public sector unions in Ohio in 1983. Yeah, because it couldn't possibly have been about a longstanding Democratic belief that unionization improves the lives of regular people. Compare to this incident, which has absolutely positively nothing to do with the budget, just a simple stripping of rights and an attempt to weaken political opponents. Exempting unions that supported Walker? And the threats to try and tighten voter registration rules while the Democrats were gone? That helps the budget in what way, exactly? You are a frightening authoritarian cheerleading poster that engages in all sorts of false equivalencies, selective reading, and twisting of words. You'll get along with the others just fine. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: DrScholl on March 09, 2011, 10:19:28 PM Lets hope those recalls go through. There needs to be consequences to this action.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: cinyc on March 09, 2011, 10:26:07 PM Using public policy for political purposes. Republicans do it better than anyone. At least the Democrats put up a good fight. Nope. Not quite as well as the Democrats did to create public sector unions in Ohio in 1983. Yeah, because it couldn't possibly have been about a longstanding Democratic belief that unionization improves the lives of regular people. Compare to this incident, which has absolutely positively nothing to do with the budget, just a simple stripping of rights and an attempt to weaken political opponents. Exempting unions that supported Walker? And the threats to try and tighten voter registration rules while the Democrats were gone? That helps the budget in what way, exactly? You are a frightening authoritarian cheerleading poster that engages in all sorts of false equivalencies, selective reading, and twisting of words. You'll get along with the others just fine. At the end of the day, this was put in place so that LOCAL and COUNTY governments can more easily deal with the massive state aid cuts that are going to be passed along with the budget. So, yes, it is about the budget, but not necessarily the state budget except to the extent it would allow the state government to more easily get concessions from its own workers. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Marokai Backbeat on March 09, 2011, 10:29:30 PM At the end of the day, this was put in place so that LOCAL and COUNTY governments can more easily deal with the massive state aid cuts that are going to be passed along with the budget. So, yes, it is about the budget, but not necessarily the state budget except to the extent it would allow the state government to more easily get concessions from its own workers. You lost the right to whine about union concessions when they offered to give up any of the cuts demanded of them as long as they could keep their ability to bargain collectively. Abolishing collective bargaining is a rights issue, not a budget issue. The fact that they had to split it apart from the budget bill just to pass it is a tacit admission of exactly that. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 09, 2011, 10:31:15 PM Yeah, because it couldn't possibly have been about a longstanding Democratic belief that unionization improves the lives of regular people. Compare to this incident, which has absolutely positively nothing to do with the budget, just a simple stripping of rights and an attempt to weaken political opponents. Exempting unions that supported Walker? And the threats to try and tighten voter registration rules while the Democrats were gone? That helps the budget in what way, exactly? That belief is borne out of nothing more than AFL-CIO support and money for Ohio Democrats in 1982, and of course in 1986. Thanks for showing the truth, though. Democrats are fine with party line ramming and political power grabs when they do it. Talk about crocodile tears! The Democratic mayor of New York did the same thing in 1958 not because the city needed labor unions, but because he wanted to. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on March 09, 2011, 10:31:38 PM Woah: http://www.livestream.com/theuptake (http://www.livestream.com/theuptake)
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: cinyc on March 09, 2011, 10:34:09 PM At the end of the day, this was put in place so that LOCAL and COUNTY governments can more easily deal with the massive state aid cuts that are going to be passed along with the budget. So, yes, it is about the budget, but not necessarily the state budget except to the extent it would allow the state government to more easily get concessions from its own workers. You lost the right to whine about union concessions when they offered to give up any of the cuts demanded of them as long as they could keep their ability to bargain collectively. Abolishing collective bargaining is a rights issue, not a budget issue. The fact that they had to split it apart from the budget bill just to pass it is a tacit admission of exactly that. You're telling me that the unions representing Sheboygan teachers or Wausau public works employees were all completely bound by whatever talking points you heard on MSNBC or read on Talking Points Memo? Not bloody likely. Walker was a county exec. He knows what happens when the state cuts aid while the county's hands are tied - county taxes go up. This bill is an attempt to avoid that situation. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 09, 2011, 10:40:46 PM At the end of the day, this was put in place so that LOCAL and COUNTY governments can more easily deal with the massive state aid cuts that are going to be passed along with the budget. So, yes, it is about the budget, but not necessarily the state budget except to the extent it would allow the state government to more easily get concessions from its own workers. Public sector unions were not a force in the Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Democratic Party. A generation later, they put John Kennedy in the White House and wrote executive order 10988. The symbiotic relationship between public sector unions and the Democratic party has continued to this day, with the exception of a handful of states like North Carolina where public sector unions are not tolerated. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Marokai Backbeat on March 09, 2011, 10:42:31 PM That belief is borne out of nothing more than AFL-CIO support and money for Ohio Democrats in 1982, and of course in 1986. Thanks for showing the truth, though. Democrats are fine with party line ramming and political power grabs when they do it. Talk about crocodile tears! The Democratic mayor of New York did the same thing in 1958 not because the city needed labor unions, but because he wanted to. Dude, I don't give a flying f**k about who introduced unions to where at what point in time. This discussion is about the budget, what Republicans are doing here in Wisconsin, and everywhere else. Even if I was to entertain your retarded "the other side does it too" excuse, that doesn't excuse a goddamn thing unless you have the mind of a toddler. Rick Scott in Florida wants to cut 1.75 billion from the state's schools and give 1.6 billion away in tax breaks for business. The Ohio budget repair bill includes anti-gay marriage language and giving politicians, not judges or any sort of neutral arbiter, power to resolve labor disputes. (And guts private and public union rights.) Snyder in Michigan is supporting a budget bill that gives him power to unilaterally declare a state in "fiscal crisis" and place a new overseer of those towns with power to dismiss the elected officials of that town and potentially place a corporation in charge of it. He's also supporting a tax hike on poor people to give it away in tax breaks. Republicans in Wisconsin threatened to tighten voter registration laws to intimidate the Democrats. There's alot of things going on right now, but it has nothing to do with budget issues. There's something much more widespread and insidious going on here, and the people shelling out millions in fake grassroots movements depend on people like you to let them have their way. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Marokai Backbeat on March 09, 2011, 10:43:24 PM Walker was a county exec. He knows what happens when the state cuts aid while the county's hands are tied - county taxes go up. This bill is an attempt to avoid that situation. You really want to bring up Walker's atrocious record as county exec? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on March 09, 2011, 10:44:12 PM Guys, watch the live stream I just posted. It's crazy.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: DrScholl on March 09, 2011, 10:45:23 PM No matter how this went, the result was going to be the same, Republicans have stepped in it in Wisconsin. Next election, they are going to have zero credibility for overreaching and swing voters aren't going to be perceptive to them. What reason would they have to be?
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Marokai Backbeat on March 09, 2011, 10:45:49 PM Guys, watch the live stream I just posted. It's crazy. Watching it since you posted it. Crazy indeed. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: © tweed on March 09, 2011, 10:45:52 PM stop going to work
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: cinyc on March 09, 2011, 10:50:15 PM No matter how this went, the result was going to be the same, Republicans have stepped in it in Wisconsin. Next election, they are going to have zero credibility for overreaching and swing voters aren't going to be perceptive to them. What reason would they have to be? Because they acted like adults and fixed the state's fiscal mess without raising taxes? The next scheduled state election is over a year and a half away. That's an eternity in politics. Things that are important today may be forgotten. Or not. Remember - recalls work both ways, too. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Dgov on March 09, 2011, 10:50:56 PM Violence? http://mobile.twitter.com/news3jessica#45596184525537280 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svsgvqyr0rQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player Probably not against other people (though it does look like the protesters are getting closer to that), but vandalism? Definitely. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Shilly on March 09, 2011, 10:51:48 PM haha America is screwed.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on March 09, 2011, 10:51:54 PM stop going to work A general strike is a serious possibility at this point:"MikeElk: Wisc Firefighters Union President Joe Conway tells me there should be a general strike" Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on March 09, 2011, 10:53:28 PM No matter how this went, the result was going to be the same, Republicans have stepped in it in Wisconsin. Next election, they are going to have zero credibility for overreaching and swing voters aren't going to be perceptive to them. What reason would they have to be? Because they acted like adults and fixed the state's fiscal mess without raising taxes? The next scheduled state election is over a year and a half away. That's an eternity in politics. Things that are important today may be forgotten. Or not. Remember - recalls work both ways, too. Oh yes because there are so many Senate Democrats in Wisconsin in such vulnerable seats. ::) Say goodbye to that piece of sh!t asshole representing La Crosse. I'd bet anything he is done. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: DrScholl on March 09, 2011, 10:56:33 PM Because they acted like adults and fixed the state's fiscal mess without raising taxes? The next scheduled state election is over a year and a half away. That's an eternity in politics. Things that are important today may be forgotten. Or not. Remember - recalls work both ways, too. Steaming pile of manure, the fiscal portions were removed, which is why this foolishness passed. This is not something that will be forgotten, when a party overreaches, it has consequences. The Democrats aren't the one who stepped in it, the Republicans are, it's not hard to see who is in the most trouble for a recall. But delude yourself if you like. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Queen Mum Inks.LWC on March 09, 2011, 10:57:33 PM Isn't it possible that this is just a trick to get the Democrats to come back? Otherwise, I do object to the fact that 24 hours notice wasn't given.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: cinyc on March 09, 2011, 10:57:47 PM Oh yes because there are so many Senate Democrats in Wisconsin in such vulnerable seats. ::) Say goodbye to that piece of sh!t asshole representing La Crosse. I'd bet anything he is done. Democratic Senator Jim Holperin, Class of 2008, won with just 51% of the vote in one of the best cycles for Wisconsin Democrats in a long time. And there are more vulnerable Wisconsin Senate Democrats in the Class of 2010 than Republicans. But let's not let facts get in the way of the typical Democrats rule, Republicans drool analysis. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on March 09, 2011, 10:59:56 PM Oh yes I'm sure the total of two Democrats in the class of 2010 who represent Janesville and inner-city Milwaukee are soooooooooo vulnerable.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Dgov on March 09, 2011, 11:00:36 PM Oh yes I'm sure the total of two Democrats in the class of 2010 who represent Janesville and inner-city Milwaukee are soooooooooo vulnerable. I think he meant 2008 (which is relavent) Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on March 09, 2011, 11:03:39 PM What a Pyrrhic victory, I see no way for Republicans in Wisconsin to rebound from this unless the protests get really, really, really violent tomorrow and there is more blowback from that. News coverage should be pretty universally negative on their legislative tactics and their rhetoric. Now that the debate is purely about collective bargaining rights vs. no collective bargaining rights and the Republicans can't hide behind the "OMFG budget crisis!!!" argument, they will lose even more popular support.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Dgov on March 09, 2011, 11:11:01 PM What a Pyrrhic victory, I see no way for Republicans in Wisconsin to rebound from this unless the protests get really, really, really violent tomorrow and there is more blowback from that. News coverage should be pretty universally negative on their legislative tactics and their rhetoric. Now that the debate is purely about collective bargaining rights vs. no collective bargaining rights and the Republicans can't hide behind the "OMFG budget crisis!!!" argument, they will lose even more popular support. "GOP uses controversial tactic to overcome controversial Democratic tactic" doesn't exactly strike me as a reputation buster. I don't think anyone is going to see this as some truly unfair political move that doesn't already hate the GOP. And speaking of that, Quorum busting is far, FAR less Democratic than legislative trickery is. Remember that the only reason that we're in this situation is because the Democrats basically decided to take the state legislature hostage. It seems extremely hypocritical to complain about the GOP muscling a bill through when the reason they had to is because the Democrats were busying hiding in Illinois. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on March 09, 2011, 11:13:26 PM The polls were already against the Republicans.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: cinyc on March 09, 2011, 11:14:22 PM The polls were already against the Republicans. They were also already against the Democrats - an inconvenient fact missed by many partisans. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Smash255 on March 09, 2011, 11:15:50 PM What a Pyrrhic victory, I see no way for Republicans in Wisconsin to rebound from this unless the protests get really, really, really violent tomorrow and there is more blowback from that. News coverage should be pretty universally negative on their legislative tactics and their rhetoric. Now that the debate is purely about collective bargaining rights vs. no collective bargaining rights and the Republicans can't hide behind the "OMFG budget crisis!!!" argument, they will lose even more popular support. "GOP uses controversial tactic to overcome controversial Democratic tactic" doesn't exactly strike me as a reputation buster. I don't think anyone is going to see this as some truly unfair political move that doesn't already hate the GOP. And speaking of that, Quorum busting is far, FAR less Democratic than legislative trickery is. Remember that the only reason that we're in this situation is because the Democrats basically decided to take the state legislature hostage. It seems extremely hypocritical to complain about the GOP muscling a bill through when the reason they had to is because the Democrats were busying hiding in Illinois. The Dems bolted because Walker and the GOP refused to negotiate or busting unions. The GOP claimed that this was about the budget, but this proves this was never about the budget or fiscal issues. On top of that the way they passed it was absolutely nuts and was blatantly illegal. This video is Absolutely Crazy http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/41998976#41998976 Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on March 09, 2011, 11:16:35 PM The polls were already against the Republicans. They were also already against the Democrats - an inconvenient fact missed by many partisans. With majority favorable opinion of teacher's unions and 57% disapproval for Walker? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on March 09, 2011, 11:16:55 PM 2008 Democratic Senate seats with Kerry percentage:
Lena Taylor (4)- 80% Spence Coggs (6)- 83% Jim Holperin (12)- 46% Mark Miller (16)- 58% Robert Wirch (22)- 51% Julie Lassa (24)- 51% Fred Risser (26)- 75% Dave Hansen (30)- 47% I'd expect a big enthusiasm gap in favor of Democrats in these special elections. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on March 09, 2011, 11:18:07 PM The polls were already against the Republicans. They were also already against the Democrats - an inconvenient fact missed by many partisans. With majority favorable opinion of teacher's unions and 57% disapproval for Walker? With over 60% in favor of collective bargaining rights as well, which is now the only issue that will be debated upon. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Marokai Backbeat on March 09, 2011, 11:21:01 PM This video is Absolutely Crazy http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/41998976#41998976 Speechless. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: cinyc on March 09, 2011, 11:22:41 PM The polls were already against the Republicans. They were also already against the Democrats - an inconvenient fact missed by many partisans. With majority favorable opinion of teacher's unions and 57% disapproval for Walker? No. Please read what I said and stop confusing politicians for teachers. A majority with a negative opinion of the Democrats who are currently hiding out in Illinois. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on March 09, 2011, 11:23:55 PM 51-47 is a lot less than Walker's disapproval.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Smash255 on March 09, 2011, 11:31:47 PM This video is Absolutely Crazy http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/41998976#41998976 Speechless. Its absolutely nuts. You have the Minority leader of the Assembly reading off the actual rules over the open meetings law, and then as he is speaking being cut off for the roll call vote in the Senate. It is crazy. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: cinyc on March 09, 2011, 11:33:23 PM 51-47 is a lot less than Walker's disapproval. Because a 51% disapproval versus a 53% one is statistically significant in a poll with an MoE of +/-4, right? The fact is Wisconsin voters are pretty much divided on the issue and question wording matters. But the majority disapprove of political actors on both sides. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on March 09, 2011, 11:36:07 PM Well I'd say at least that disgusting piece of sh!t "representing" La Crosse in an >60% Obama district isn't going to have a good time. And once recall petitions begin against that human trash I will probably go to La Crosse to help circulate it.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Sbane on March 09, 2011, 11:38:28 PM Ah, so the Republican power grab is complete. Corporations will now have complete control of the political system. Hooray! What a great day for America! ::)
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 09, 2011, 11:43:09 PM Dude, I don't give a flying f**k about who introduced unions to where at what point in time. This discussion is about the budget, what Republicans are doing here in Wisconsin, and everywhere else. Even if I was to entertain your retarded "the other side does it too" excuse, that doesn't excuse a goddamn thing unless you have the mind of a toddler. Rick Scott in Florida wants to cut 1.75 billion from the state's schools and give 1.6 billion away in tax breaks for business. The Ohio budget repair bill includes anti-gay marriage language and giving politicians, not judges or any sort of neutral arbiter, power to resolve labor disputes. (And guts private and public union rights.) Snyder in Michigan is supporting a budget bill that gives him power to unilaterally declare a state in "fiscal crisis" and place a new overseer of those towns with power to dismiss the elected officials of that town and potentially place a corporation in charge of it. He's also supporting a tax hike on poor people to give it away in tax breaks. Republicans in Wisconsin threatened to tighten voter registration laws to intimidate the Democrats. There's alot of things going on right now, but it has nothing to do with budget issues. There's something much more widespread and insidious going on here, and the people shelling out millions in fake grassroots movements depend on people like you to let them have their way. Of course not, because you're just crying dishonest crocodile tears because the free flow of cash is ending. Not because you have some fictional stand on principle. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: MasterJedi on March 09, 2011, 11:44:42 PM Well this is another example of how Republicans actually get stuff done. Doyle did NOTHING in office for 8 YEARS and Republicans did all this in less then 3 months.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Sbane on March 09, 2011, 11:47:02 PM Well this is another example of how Republicans actually get stuff done. Doyle did NOTHING in office for 8 YEARS and Republicans did all this in less then 3 months. Why is getting rid of collective bargaining rights, the unions right to participate in the political process, something that needed to be done? The budget needed to be balanced, and if needed the unions needed to take deep cuts, which they did agree to, but the crap that got passed is just a bunch of extraneous elephant dung. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 09, 2011, 11:48:51 PM Why is getting rid of collective bargaining rights, the unions right to participate in the political process, something that needed to be done? The budget needed to be balanced, and if needed the unions needed to take deep cuts, which they did agree to, but the crap that got passed is just a bunch of extraneous elephant dung. Mostly because the unions keep stacking the deck in their favor. "We have the ability to elect our own boss." Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Sbane on March 09, 2011, 11:50:36 PM Why is getting rid of collective bargaining rights, the unions right to participate in the political process, something that needed to be done? The budget needed to be balanced, and if needed the unions needed to take deep cuts, which they did agree to, but the crap that got passed is just a bunch of extraneous elephant dung. Mostly because the unions keep stacking the deck in their favor. "We have the ability to elect our own boss." What are you even talking about? They agreed to the cuts. That's all that matters. It should be only about the budget, not your political wet dreams. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Smash255 on March 09, 2011, 11:50:43 PM Well this is another example of how Republicans actually get stuff done. Doyle did NOTHING in office for 8 YEARS and Republicans did all this in less then 3 months. They just PROVED this was about UNION BUSTING and had NOTHING to do with the budget, the deficit or any fiscal issues at all. They just PROVED that. On top of that, they decided to break the open meetings law. This is how this happened http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/41998976#41998976 Disgusting, absolutely disgusting Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: DrScholl on March 09, 2011, 11:51:21 PM But how does taking away rights make anything better? Especially since every financial provision was removed from the bill so that it could pass. This is not about what it's been made out to be and I wouldn't be surprised if Republicans tried to find way to extend this into private sector unions.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 09, 2011, 11:52:48 PM What are you even talking about? They agreed to the cuts. That's all that matters. It should be only about the budget, not your political wet dreams. Hardly. Public service unions have spent 50 years establishing themselves as an extension of the Democratic Party. If they want to do that, fine, but don't be shocked when the Republicans don't like you. Union existence has never been about the budget in the first place. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: MasterJedi on March 09, 2011, 11:55:32 PM I don't even care if it was about the budget, good thing it passed anyways. Good buy to public union power in Wisconsin!
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 09, 2011, 11:57:20 PM They just PROVED this was about UNION BUSTING and had NOTHING to do with the budget, the deficit or any fiscal issues at all. They just PROVED that. On top of that, they decided to break the open meetings law. This is how this happened http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/41998976#41998976 The obvious solution seems to be to repass the bill tomorrow. Yawn. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Inverted Things on March 09, 2011, 11:58:07 PM I don't even care if it was about the budget, good thing it passed anyways. Good buy to public union power in Wisconsin! Interesting way to put it... :D Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Sounder on March 09, 2011, 11:59:41 PM This is a great day. We need to abolish all public sector labor cartels and replace them with voluntary worker associations.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Sbane on March 10, 2011, 12:01:22 AM I don't even care if it was about the budget, At least you're being honest. It's still a disgusting power grab, but at least you are acknowledging that it is, correct? Are you fine with corporations being the only ones capable of funding campaigns now? It's quite disgusting what your party is doing just to gain a little more power. It really is. Anyways, enjoy. Go shoot your gun and pray for the gays and muslims or whatever it is you guys like to do. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Marokai Backbeat on March 10, 2011, 12:03:30 AM I don't even care if it was about the budget, good thing it passed anyways. Good buy to public union power in Wisconsin! Oh, there was "buy"ing, alright. Republicans, in cooperation with powerful business interests have spent the last 30 years destroying private sector unions. Now it's time to destroy public sector unions. The last vestige of powerful organized power against corporate interests, politically. Enjoy your billionaire masters. Maybe you'll get to be one of the lucky ones. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Smash255 on March 10, 2011, 12:03:52 AM I don't even care if it was about the budget, good thing it passed anyways. Good buy to public union power in Wisconsin! So you don't care that Walker lied his ass off when he claimed this was a budget issue, and a deficit issue? You don't care that the Republicans broke open meetings laws? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Sounder on March 10, 2011, 12:04:02 AM At least you're being honest. It's still a disgusting power grab, but at least you are acknowledging that it is, correct? It's busting power, not grabbing it. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 10, 2011, 12:04:08 AM I don't even care if it was about the budget, good thing it passed anyways. Good buy to public union power in Wisconsin! Be careful. The Democrats on a federal level have been trying to force unions down our throats anyway. http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-s3991/show Basically, Democrats in the US House and Senate didn't like the idea that various states like North Carolina have barred the existence of public sector unions in state law. Pelosi and Reid could try this again. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: MasterJedi on March 10, 2011, 12:07:55 AM Wow, the overreaction to a typo!
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on March 10, 2011, 12:08:34 AM PPP:"Do you think public employees in Wisconsin should or should not have a right to collective bargaining for wages, benefits, and working environment rules?"
Should have a right to collective bargaining- 57% Should not- 37% Not sure- 7% The public clearly will side with Scott Walker and the Republicans on this issue!!! Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on March 10, 2011, 12:09:01 AM I love the Libertas-style debating here. "UNIONS ARE EVIL AND SO POWERFUL AND DESTRUCTIVE BLAH BLAH BLAH" with absolutely nothing backing up how they are so powerful and vile.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 10, 2011, 12:10:06 AM So you don't care that Walker lied his ass off when he claimed this was a budget issue, and a deficit issue? You don't care that the Republicans broke open meetings laws? I doubt anyone cares about that any more than they care about the lame duck shenanigans pulled by the outgoing governor Jim Doyle and the lame duck Democrats. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: DrScholl on March 10, 2011, 12:10:31 AM Interesting way to put it... :D The definition of a Freudian slip. The supporters know what the real game is, which is why they are so glad about the passage. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Smash255 on March 10, 2011, 12:11:49 AM So you don't care that Walker lied his ass off when he claimed this was a budget issue, and a deficit issue? You don't care that the Republicans broke open meetings laws? I doubt anyone cares about that any more than they care about the lame duck shenanighans pulled by the outgoing governor Jim Doyle and the lame duck Democrats. This was absolutely crazy and illegal http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/41998976#41998976 Not to mention its clear as day this was NEVER about the budget, this was NEVER about the deficit, this was about Union Busting and union busting only, Walker lied his ass off and its clear as day. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Sbane on March 10, 2011, 12:13:00 AM At least you're being honest. It's still a disgusting power grab, but at least you are acknowledging that it is, correct? It's busting power, not grabbing it. Dude, if Republicans refuse to take money from their corporate buddies, I'll call it even. This is a complete power grab by the Republicans who want to neuter the union's influence in elections. I don't even think this will necessarily help Republicans (especially looking at the long term), rather it will make our corporate masters even more powerful. Is that what you want? Trust me I know the abuses unions do. But the answer is to reign those practices in. The answer is to negotiate hard with them, like private companies do, so the taxpayers don't end up giving plush benefits. At the same time workers should be able to have a say in their pay, their work environment, as well as organize politically. I think the last part is very important until we get real campaign finance reform, perhaps even an amendment to the constitution. Until then money in US politics will continue to be a huge issue. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Sbane on March 10, 2011, 12:16:03 AM BTW, Republicans, what are your thoughts on companies financing campaigns without asking their workers whether it's ok (because in reality the company is speaking for all it's employees)?
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 10, 2011, 12:19:43 AM BTW, Republicans, what are your thoughts on companies financing campaigns without asking their workers whether it's ok (because in reality the company is speaking for all it's employees)? For one thing, the company can't collect compulsory dues out of a paycheck of someone who is not in the company with the protection of law. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Sbane on March 10, 2011, 12:21:53 AM BTW, Republicans, what are your thoughts on companies financing campaigns without asking their workers whether it's ok (because in reality the company is speaking for all it's employees)? For one thing, the company can't collect compulsory dues out of a paycheck of someone who is not in the company with the protection of law. That money is coming from somewhere. Why could it not go into my paycheck instead of some politician's pockets? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on March 10, 2011, 12:22:21 AM Can anyone please explain how they have been personally negatively affected by public sector unions?
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Sbane on March 10, 2011, 12:25:52 AM Can anyone please explain how they have been personally negatively affected by public sector unions? Higher taxes? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on March 10, 2011, 12:27:27 AM Yeah public sector unions obviously drive up taxes way higher than companies that abuse loopholes in the system to pay no corporate tax. No question.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Sounder on March 10, 2011, 12:28:52 AM This is a complete power grab by the Republicans who want to neuter the union's influence in elections. Can't you see that is the problem? That is why public sector labor cartels need to be illegal. FDR was smart enough to foresee the problem they would cause. To protect workers, have voluntary worker associations. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Sbane on March 10, 2011, 12:30:08 AM Yeah public sector unions obviously drive up taxes way higher than companies that abuse loopholes in the system to pay no corporate tax. No question. Both do of course. And that is only when the unions recieve bloated benefits, which isn't true in a lot of cases. But in a lot of places the unions are to blame. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Sbane on March 10, 2011, 12:31:59 AM This is a complete power grab by the Republicans who want to neuter the union's influence in elections. Can't you see that is the problem? That is why public sector labor cartels need to be illegal. FDR was smart enough to foresee the problem they would cause. To protect workers, have voluntary worker associations. I would like to end the influence of corporations and unions on elections. Are you with me? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Dgov on March 10, 2011, 12:33:11 AM Not to mention its clear as day this was NEVER about the budget, this was NEVER about the deficit, this was about Union Busting and union busting only, Walker lied his ass off and its clear as day. Maybe i don't get where you are coming from here, but how on earth is this true? Republicans are using a procedural gimmick to pass controversial legislation. It doesn't mean that collective bargaining doesn't affect state and local budgets IMMENSELY, and seriously reduce their budget flexibility when the have a deficit to close. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: cinyc on March 10, 2011, 12:35:12 AM Not to mention its clear as day this was NEVER about the budget, this was NEVER about the deficit, this was about Union Busting and union busting only, Walker lied his ass off and its clear as day. This IS about budgets, particularly state and local ones. It always has been: http://walker.wi.gov/journal_media_detail.asp?locid=177&prid=5675 Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Sounder on March 10, 2011, 12:35:23 AM I would like to end the influence of corporations and unions on elections. Are you with me? YES! The way to do that is to reduce the influence of government. The more power and money government has, the more unions and corporations will be willing to pay to play. Time to return power to the people. End corporate monopolies (and subsidies) and end labor cartels. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 10, 2011, 12:51:05 AM That money is coming from somewhere. Why could it not go into my paycheck instead of some politician's pockets? Hmm? That's what I've been wondering. The unions in many states can collect dues from any worker they want, even workers who do not want to be in a union. The unions then funnel that money into politician's pockets. Why could it not go into his paycheck instead of some politician's pockets? They also enjoy immunity from antitrust. Any corporation other than Major League Baseball would love that kind of power. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Smash255 on March 10, 2011, 12:56:02 AM Not to mention its clear as day this was NEVER about the budget, this was NEVER about the deficit, this was about Union Busting and union busting only, Walker lied his ass off and its clear as day. Maybe i don't get where you are coming from here, but how on earth is this true? Republicans are using a procedural gimmick to pass controversial legislation. It doesn't mean that collective bargaining doesn't affect state and local budgets IMMENSELY, and seriously reduce their budget flexibility when the have a deficit to close. Any legislation that has any budgetary or fiscal impact whatsoever can't be passed through this procedural gimmick, and must first have a quorum present. By going around the quorum requirements the GOP is admitting that CBR has no budgetary impacts or any fiscal impacts of any kind, otherwise they could not have held the vote. Not to mention the vote was illegal anyway since it broke open meetings laws. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Smash255 on March 10, 2011, 12:59:30 AM Not to mention its clear as day this was NEVER about the budget, this was NEVER about the deficit, this was about Union Busting and union busting only, Walker lied his ass off and its clear as day. This IS about budgets, particularly state and local ones. It always has been: http://walker.wi.gov/journal_media_detail.asp?locid=177&prid=5675 Its NOT about budgets, its about Union breaking. Based off how this passed it is NOT about budgets. They took the legislation off of the budget rules to get around the quorum rules. The quorum rules are also in effect for any legislation related to the budget or anything fiscal. So by voting on this and bypassing the quorum rules, they are admitting that CBR has no fiscal or budget impact whatsoever, otherwise they could not bypass the quorum rules and could not vote on it. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: cinyc on March 10, 2011, 01:12:14 AM Not to mention its clear as day this was NEVER about the budget, this was NEVER about the deficit, this was about Union Busting and union busting only, Walker lied his ass off and its clear as day. Maybe i don't get where you are coming from here, but how on earth is this true? Republicans are using a procedural gimmick to pass controversial legislation. It doesn't mean that collective bargaining doesn't affect state and local budgets IMMENSELY, and seriously reduce their budget flexibility when the have a deficit to close. Any legislation that has any budgetary or fiscal impact whatsoever can't be passed through this procedural gimmick, and must first have a quorum present. By going around the quorum requirements the GOP is admitting that CBR has no budgetary impacts or any fiscal impacts of any kind, otherwise they could not have held the vote. Not to mention the vote was illegal anyway since it broke open meetings laws. Incorrect. The supermajority requirement (https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=132485.msg2827944#msg2827944=) applies to "any law which imposes, continues or renews a tax, or creates a debt or charge, or makes, continues or renews an appropriation of public or trust money, or releases, discharges or commutes a claim or demand of the state". It does not apply, for example to a revocation of an appropriation - which has a budget impact, or a law that foists or removes an unfunded mandate on a county or local government - which has a budget impact on those municipalities, or a law that changes the collective bargaining process so that, down the road, it has a budget impact when work rules are changed. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Lief 🗽 on March 10, 2011, 01:28:34 AM The Republicans have shot themselves in the foot with this. The way they did this shows a total disrespect for democracy and the rule of law, is a textbook example of backroom dealing and forcing bills down the people throat, and the backlash will become even worse now.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: MasterJedi on March 10, 2011, 01:31:01 AM The Republicans have shot themselves in the foot with this. The way they did this shows a total disrespect for democracy and the rule of law, is a textbook example of backroom dealing and forcing bills down the people throat, and the backlash will become even worse now. Kinda like what happened with healthcare, am I right? Of course I can't be right though, I'm a Republican and the Democrats were just doing what was best for the country and the people! Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Lief 🗽 on March 10, 2011, 01:33:06 AM The Republicans have shot themselves in the foot with this. The way they did this shows a total disrespect for democracy and the rule of law, is a textbook example of backroom dealing and forcing bills down the people throat, and the backlash will become even worse now. Kinda like what happened with healthcare, am I right? Of course I can't be right though, I'm a Republican and the Democrats were just doing what was best for the country and the people! The healthcare bill that was debated for nearly a full year? The one based on past Republican proposals? The one where Obama and the Democrats bended over backwards to moderate Republicans trying to include them in negotiations? The one where members of the public were allowed in the House and Senate chambers to see the votes on the legislation? That one? And despite all that, it still hurt the Democrats, which is the point I was making in the post you quoted. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: MasterJedi on March 10, 2011, 01:39:24 AM I think what people need to understand is this bill was guarenteed to pass no matter how much debate took place. If it would have made the Democrats happy they could have debated it for 3 months, ignored them anyways and then still passed it with them there. Nothing the Democrats could have done would stop this part of the bill from passing.
Now the question is are they going to come back or let a lot of the state government be shut down until 2012 when they might have a chance to win back some seats, but probably only enough to have everything be about even in the senate. How do you think the voters will feel about them staying out of state for a year and a half and not doing their jobs? Well at least they won't get paid for doing it though frankly everone should get a 50% pay cut in elected office. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: cinyc on March 10, 2011, 01:43:21 AM To the point on the ultimate legal issue of whether a supermajority quorum is required for all bills fiscal in nature or just some, there is a 1971 formal opinion from the Wisconsin attorney general stating that a bill altering collective bargaining rights isn't fiscal as it is narrowly defined by the relevant Wisconsin constitutional provision and therefore not subject to the supermajority quorum.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1773153 Game. Set. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Landslide Lyndon on March 10, 2011, 01:45:03 AM I think what people need to understand is this bill was guarenteed to pass no matter how much debate took place. If it would have made the Democrats happy they could have debated it for 3 months, ignored them anyways and then still passed it with them there. Nothing the Democrats could have done would stop this part of the bill from passing. Now the question is are they going to come back or let a lot of the state government be shut down until 2012 when they might have a chance to win back some seats, but probably only enough to have everything be about even in the senate. How do you think the voters will feel about them staying out of state for a year and a half and not doing their jobs? Well at least they won't get paid for doing it though frankly everone should get a 50% pay cut in elected office. Well, if Republicans are going to pass whatever they please ignoring everybody else, then why should the Democrats return to Wisconsin? They might as well take a vacation at Illinois and return when the other party's senators and governor start acting like adults again. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: The Dowager Mod on March 10, 2011, 01:47:19 AM Never been on strike before, hope the weathers good. :P
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: DrScholl on March 10, 2011, 01:58:08 AM The healthcare bill that was debated for nearly a full year? The one based on past Republican proposals? The one where Obama and the Democrats bended over backwards to moderate Republicans trying to include them in negotiations? The one where members of the public were allowed in the House and Senate chambers to see the votes on the legislation? That one? And despite all that, it still hurt the Democrats, which is the point I was making in the post you quoted. It also included a lot of Republican amendments that were introduced over the long period of debate. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Smash255 on March 10, 2011, 02:03:54 AM The Republicans have shot themselves in the foot with this. The way they did this shows a total disrespect for democracy and the rule of law, is a textbook example of backroom dealing and forcing bills down the people throat, and the backlash will become even worse now. Kinda like what happened with healthcare, am I right? Of course I can't be right though, I'm a Republican and the Democrats were just doing what was best for the country and the people! That bill was up for over a year, and Obama actually campaigned on something very similar, not to mention the GOP proposals. This wasn't campaigned on, not to mention they sidestepped actual laws, broke the open meetings laws. Not to mention they flat out LIED about this having anything to do with the budget or the deficit. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Smash255 on March 10, 2011, 02:06:41 AM To the point on the ultimate legal issue of whether a supermajority quorum is required for all bills fiscal in nature or just some, there is a 1971 formal opinion from the Wisconsin attorney general stating that a bill altering collective bargaining rights isn't fiscal as it is narrowly defined by the relevant Wisconsin constitutional provision and therefore not subject to the supermajority quorum. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1773153 Game. Set. Game set?? So its game set that Walker and the Republicans lied the entire time with the comment that this was about anything fiscal or budgetary in nature. This has nothing to do with the deficit whatsoever. So thanks for proving Walker and the Republicans lied their asses off. Not to mention the whole breaking the open meetings law. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: The Dowager Mod on March 10, 2011, 02:07:26 AM The Republicans have shot themselves in the foot with this. The way they did this shows a total disrespect for democracy and the rule of law, is a textbook example of backroom dealing and forcing bills down the people throat, and the backlash will become even worse now. Kinda like what happened with healthcare, am I right? Of course I can't be right though, I'm a Republican and the Democrats were just doing what was best for the country and the people! That bill was up for over a year, and Obama actually campaigned on something very similar, not to mention the GOP proposals. This wasn't campaigned on, not to mention they sidestepped actual laws, broke the open meetings laws. Not to mention they flat out LIED about this having anything to do with the budget or the deficit. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Capitan Zapp Brannigan on March 10, 2011, 02:09:55 AM Never been on strike before, hope the weathers good. :P Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Landslide Lyndon on March 10, 2011, 02:11:34 AM Well, Democrats and unions might not have to wait long for the first fight.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/09/954600/-The-Most-Important-Race-in-Wisconsin-Now (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/09/954600/-The-Most-Important-Race-in-Wisconsin-Now) Like the supreme courts in many states, the Wisconsin Supreme Court has become highly politicized and is now controlled by the right wing, 4-3. By happenstance there is a race going on that can change that balance. A smart highly educated progressive, Joanne Kloppenburg is running against the self proclaimed judicial conservative schmo, David Prosser. PvtJarhead ran a terrific diary on this last week, but in light of tonight's developments this bears repeating. Most significantly the election is APRIL 5, just around the corner. And it's for a TEN YEAR TERM. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: The Dowager Mod on March 10, 2011, 02:12:38 AM Never been on strike before, hope the weathers good. :P many will get the "blue flu" though. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: jimrtex on March 10, 2011, 02:13:52 AM Then they should do the gerrymander fast. Because if Dems manage the recall thing before that, their agreement might be needed for whatever gerrymander gets adopted. What is the time line for the recall thing? The Pubbies are doing the same thing of course. When might the interim election be? So it is conceivable that the recall elections could be strung out over time as petitions are filed. In any case you are going to be up against the new fiscal biennium, and Wisconsin doesn't allow deficit spending. You have three choices: raise taxes, and get vetoed; cut benefits; cut jobs. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: cinyc on March 10, 2011, 02:19:09 AM To the point on the ultimate legal issue of whether a supermajority quorum is required for all bills fiscal in nature or just some, there is a 1971 formal opinion from the Wisconsin attorney general stating that a bill altering collective bargaining rights isn't fiscal as it is narrowly defined by the relevant Wisconsin constitutional provision and therefore not subject to the supermajority quorum. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1773153 Game. Set. Game set?? So its game set that Walker and the Republicans lied the entire time with the comment that this was about anything fiscal or budgetary in nature. This has nothing to do with the deficit whatsoever. So thanks for proving Walker and the Republicans lied their asses off. Not to mention the whole breaking the open meetings law. The full bill IS fiscal in nature, within the meaning of the constitution's super-majority quorum requirement. The collective bargaining piece of the bill potentially affects budgets, especially county and local ones, down the road, but isn't swept up by the super-majority requirement. Wisconsin courts have taken a narrow view on what is fiscal for those purposes. Even incurring short-term debt isn't. How is this so difficult to understand? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Marokai Backbeat on March 10, 2011, 02:22:28 AM How is this so difficult to understand? A little difficult for me to take your word on it being a fair and genuine effort to solve budget issues considering the way they keep talking about it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLJdijPEBJE) Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Smash255 on March 10, 2011, 03:03:45 AM To the point on the ultimate legal issue of whether a supermajority quorum is required for all bills fiscal in nature or just some, there is a 1971 formal opinion from the Wisconsin attorney general stating that a bill altering collective bargaining rights isn't fiscal as it is narrowly defined by the relevant Wisconsin constitutional provision and therefore not subject to the supermajority quorum. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1773153 Game. Set. Game set?? So its game set that Walker and the Republicans lied the entire time with the comment that this was about anything fiscal or budgetary in nature. This has nothing to do with the deficit whatsoever. So thanks for proving Walker and the Republicans lied their asses off. Not to mention the whole breaking the open meetings law. The full bill IS fiscal in nature, within the meaning of the constitution's super-majority quorum requirement. The collective bargaining piece of the bill potentially affects budgets, especially county and local ones, down the road, but isn't swept up by the super-majority requirement. Wisconsin courts have taken a narrow view on what is fiscal for those purposes. Even incurring short-term debt isn't. How is this so difficult to understand? Thanks again for proving Walker and the Republicans lied their asses off. They were the ones who claimed it was fiscal in nature. They were the ones that argued it was a budget issue. They were the ones that argued it was a deficit issue. With how it was passed, its obvious that it wasn't. So that shows that Walker and the GOP were lying their asses off when they suggested this was a deficit or a budget issue. Its not and never has been, this was about Union busting plain and simple and was from the get go. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Mississippi Political Freak on March 10, 2011, 03:56:18 AM Ah, so the Republican power grab is complete. Corporations will now have complete control of the political system. Hooray! What a great day for America! ::) For the liberal/left-leaning posters here, I'd like to raise a few questions: 1. Are the Pubbies (especially the tea-party types) yearning for a new, permanent Gilded Age where corporations and other moneyed business interests would run amok in fulfillment of their vision of unbridled free enterprise? 2. Are many Pubbies in these days free-market fundamentalists that believes in absolutely NO government role in promoting economic justice and public well-being (except for providing national security/maintaining local law-and-order)? 3. Why the Pubbies seems to be way more Machiavellian when they take over state legislatures and governorships then the Dems, and bent on promoting polarizing wedge issues instead of serious governance? (I'm not saying Dems are innocent, but they seems to be a tad more interested in real governance) Hope that someone can give insights on the above issues. thanks! (Disclaimer: My questions above are explicitly aimed at the liberal posters. For conservative/libertarian posters, please ignore this response or at least provide serious counter-responses. Thanks!) Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Lief 🗽 on March 10, 2011, 03:59:01 AM 1) Yes.
2) No, they see a very important role for government, as a tool to forcefully transfer wealth from the lower and middle class to the corporate super rich. 3) Dunno. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Marokai Backbeat on March 10, 2011, 04:28:11 AM I'll just answer 1, since I don't think Lief is completely right:
I don't think ALL of them know exactly what they're doing. The tea party types, like you said. I definitely think they're being coordinated by people who know exactly what it is they're trying to do, but they get their power by tricking people into voting against their own economic interests or by making sure people are ill-informed or constantly distracted. Fox News is the best way to do this. The economic interests and goals these people have inherently represent a smaller number of people than the Democrats represent. The trick is making sure people don't recognize that. It's why people like the Koch brothers spend time and money manufacturing fake grassroots bus tours and corporate sponsored rallies and "movements." They have to maintain the facade that they have large numbers of people on their side. If that facade failed, it becomes clear that what they're doing isn't beneficial to the majority of people. It's essential to keep that with illusion and disinformation. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Verily on March 10, 2011, 05:54:02 AM To the point on the ultimate legal issue of whether a supermajority quorum is required for all bills fiscal in nature or just some, there is a 1971 formal opinion from the Wisconsin attorney general stating that a bill altering collective bargaining rights isn't fiscal as it is narrowly defined by the relevant Wisconsin constitutional provision and therefore not subject to the supermajority quorum. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1773153 Game. Set. An AG opinion won't save it from a challenge on state constitutional grounds in the courts, at least not necessarily. I don't see anything suggesting that courts have actually agreed with the AG. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Badger on March 10, 2011, 08:55:34 AM What are you even talking about? They agreed to the cuts. That's all that matters. It should be only about the budget, not your political wet dreams. Hardly. Public service unions have spent 50 years establishing themselves as an extension of the Democratic Party. If they want to do that, fine, but don't be shocked when the Republicans don't like you. Union existence has never been about the budget in the first place. Ah, so now Krazy even comes clean and admits that this has nothing to do with the budget in the first place. Classic. Remember kids: Unfettered corporate and millionaire money flowing unchecked into the GOP coffers = good :D. A fraction of that amount flowing from middle class union members to the Democratic Party to counteract corporation and millionaire money = undermining the political system. >:( Businesses and government having all the chips and power in determining salary and benefits (or lack thereof) = prosperity. :D Allowing employees to organize to try ensuring they can have something approximating a middle class life rather than the profits flowing wholly to a handful of owners = economic stagnation. >:( Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Badger on March 10, 2011, 08:58:15 AM This is a great day. We need to abolish all public sector labor cartels and replace them with voluntary worker associations. Unions ARE "voluntary worker associations", genius. This bill basically guts them in the public sector as you purportedly support. Go back to reading Ayn Rand and skip posting libertard slogans. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Badger on March 10, 2011, 09:06:45 AM That money is coming from somewhere. Why could it not go into my paycheck instead of some politician's pockets? Hmm? That's what I've been wondering. The unions in many states can collect dues from any worker they want, even workers who do not want to be in a union. The unions then funnel that money into politician's pockets. Why could it not go into his paycheck instead of some politician's pockets? They also enjoy immunity from antitrust. Any corporation other than Major League Baseball would love that kind of power. You're failing to so the exact same argument applies to corporations. Why not let any money spent on contribution to political candidates be prorated to employees or shareholders and be "voluntary" for the workers or investors decide whether that money will be spent. For all your bloviating about the evils of "union big money", Krazen, you're amazingly silent on the significantly larger amount of money spent by corporations and extremely wealthy individuals like the Kochs on the GOP. Are you fine with there being no counterbalance to that money. Gasp! :o Wait! Are you saying that you oppose only union campaign spending because it goes to Democratic candidates you disagree with? And that means castrating them furthers your own political ideology? My goodness I'm shocked to find this motivation behind supporting this measure. SHOCKED I tell you!. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on March 10, 2011, 09:16:23 AM Walker and the WI Republicans had the same right to do this that Obama and a Democratic congress had to pass PPACA, and have the potential to face the same consequences.
No, the voters didn't want this when they elected them, but let's face it, many people voting for Dem Senators in '06 weren't thinking too clearly about health care reform. It's how our two-party system works, no actual platform commands 50% of the vote. If union members and their families lost touch with why voting Democratic 100% of the time would have been in their interest, this is the reminder that eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. We'll see if they can win back anything they've lost in future elections, the same way the tea party is fighting to win back the right to get pre-existing conditions back as a reason to deny coverage, etc. Game on, I guess. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 10, 2011, 12:11:31 PM You're failing to so the exact same argument applies to corporations. Why not let any money spent on contribution to political candidates be prorated to employees or shareholders and be "voluntary" for the workers or investors decide whether that money will be spent. For all your bloviating about the evils of "union big money", Krazen, you're amazingly silent on the significantly larger amount of money spent by corporations and extremely wealthy individuals like the Kochs on the GOP. Are you fine with there being no counterbalance to that money. No, it doesn't at all. If I am a shareholder of Microsoft and I don't like it, I can sell my securities and be done with Microsoft for good. If I am a union member and I don't like the union, I can quit the union, but they still have the right to confiscate as much money from my paycheck as they choose to. The rest of this is the fiction that public sector union pigs counterbalance anything. They don't. All they do is feed at the trough and demand more and more taxes on the working class, which is why Jon Corzine utterly gutted property tax relief throughout NJ even as unemployment was skyrocketing. The NJEA doesn't really care about what Walmart or any company does, one way or another. The unions had no problem ramming through their own agenda in your own state. But I'm glad to see more crocodile tears from crying Ohio Democrats; it makes me laugh. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 10, 2011, 12:12:52 PM Ah, so now Krazy even comes clean and admits that this has nothing to do with the budget in the first place. Classic. I never claimed otherwise. Don't like it? Tough, Democrats have been doing it for 50 years. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: opebo on March 10, 2011, 12:45:22 PM The rest of this is the fiction that public sector union pigs counterbalance anything. They don't. All they do is feed at the trough and demand more and more taxes on the working class, which is why Jon Corzine utterly gutted property tax relief throughout NJ even as unemployment was skyrocketing. Workers don't have property, krazen. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Sbane on March 10, 2011, 12:58:58 PM Walker and the WI Republicans had the same right to do this that Obama and a Democratic congress had to pass PPACA, and have the potential to face the same consequences. No, the voters didn't want this when they elected them, but let's face it, many people voting for Dem Senators in '06 weren't thinking too clearly about health care reform. It's how our two-party system works, no actual platform commands 50% of the vote. If union members and their families lost touch with why voting Democratic 100% of the time would have been in their interest, this is the reminder that eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. We'll see if they can win back anything they've lost in future elections, the same way the tea party is fighting to win back the right to get pre-existing conditions back as a reason to deny coverage, etc. Game on, I guess. It is amusing isn't it? One side wants workers to have the right to organize, while the other side wants to deny the sick health insurance. It's sickeningly funny. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 10, 2011, 01:34:16 PM The rest of this is the fiction that public sector union pigs counterbalance anything. They don't. All they do is feed at the trough and demand more and more taxes on the working class, which is why Jon Corzine utterly gutted property tax relief throughout NJ even as unemployment was skyrocketing. Workers don't have property, krazen. Really? Then what exactly are people paying ~$10k a year in tax on? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on March 10, 2011, 02:03:55 PM The Dems bolted because Walker and the GOP refused to negotiate or busting unions. The GOP claimed that this was about the budget, but this proves this was never about the budget or fiscal issues. On top of that the way they passed it was absolutely nuts and was blatantly illegal. As Obama himself said, "Elections have consequences". Why on earth should the one party have to negotiate with the other if they control both houses and the executive other than potential fears of what will happen to them in the next election. Pouting because the winners weren't willing to agree to do what the losers wanted them to is idiotic whether it happens in Washington or Madison. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Napoleon on March 10, 2011, 02:15:08 PM The Dems bolted because Walker and the GOP refused to negotiate or busting unions. The GOP claimed that this was about the budget, but this proves this was never about the budget or fiscal issues. On top of that the way they passed it was absolutely nuts and was blatantly illegal. As Obama himself said, "Elections have consequences". Why on earth should the one party have to negotiate with the other if they control both houses and the executive other than potential fears of what will happen to them in the next election. Pouting because the winners weren't willing to agree to do what the losers wanted them to is idiotic whether it happens in Washington or Madison. Plus we didn't expect Republicans to just roll over and let us push through whatever we wanted (which of course they didn't). Why should we have to let Republicans have free reign in Wisconsin or anywhere else, especially considering what Republicans did to health care reform among other things. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on March 10, 2011, 02:24:39 PM Why should we have to let Republicans have free reign in Wisconsin or anywhere else, especially considering what Republicans did to health care reform among other things. Because the Republicans have control of both houses in the Wisconsin Legislature and the governors mansion, that's why, just as the Democrats had the control of both houses of the U.S. Congress and the White House in 2009-2010. This debate over how the majority shouldn't do anything without listening to the minority has sadly reminded me of how both parties treat federalism. Whichever party is not in control of DC is always supportive of giving power to the States up until the moment they take control of DC. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: opebo on March 10, 2011, 02:27:24 PM If I am a shareholder of Microsoft and I don't like it, I can sell my securities and be done with Microsoft for good. If I am a union member and I don't like the union, I can quit the union, but they still have the right to confiscate as much money from my paycheck as they choose to. Um, krazen, the analogy to selling your Microsoft stock is the union worker can quit his job and go work at some low-wage non-union sweatshop instead. There is no coercion here. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Lief 🗽 on March 10, 2011, 02:31:04 PM I'll just answer 1, since I don't think Lief is completely right: I don't think ALL of them know exactly what they're doing. The tea party types, like you said. I definitely think they're being coordinated by people who know exactly what it is they're trying to do, but they get their power by tricking people into voting against their own economic interests or by making sure people are ill-informed or constantly distracted. Fox News is the best way to do this. The economic interests and goals these people have inherently represent a smaller number of people than the Democrats represent. The trick is making sure people don't recognize that. It's why people like the Koch brothers spend time and money manufacturing fake grassroots bus tours and corporate sponsored rallies and "movements." They have to maintain the facade that they have large numbers of people on their side. If that facade failed, it becomes clear that what they're doing isn't beneficial to the majority of people. It's essential to keep that with illusion and disinformation. Yes, that's a good clarification. I'm sure that the vast majority of Republican voters (and even probably a majority of Republican politicians) believe that what they're doing is right, because they've been lied to and fed propaganda by very rich, very skilled, very self-interested people. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: opebo on March 10, 2011, 02:37:10 PM Yes, that's a good clarification. I'm sure that the vast majority of Republican voters (and even probably a majority of Republican politicians) believe that what they're doing is right, because they've been lied to and fed propaganda by very rich, very skilled, very self-interested people. I don't think so. They don't have any idea about 'right' or 'wrong', nor any understanding or reason. They are ugly, vile, spite-filled creatures having a gut emotional reaction against people they can see/know who are very slightly better off than them. They envy teachers for having a decent pension, because they work horrific jobs without health-care for $12/hour. Of course one might say it is odd that they don't envy and hate the super-rich who actually enslave them, but the clincher is they will never see such a person in all their miserable lives, and they are incapable of conceiving of them. Ha-ha, Snicker, just kidding. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: cinyc on March 10, 2011, 02:39:55 PM Remember kids: Unfettered corporate and millionaire money flowing unchecked into the GOP coffers = good :D. A fraction of that amount flowing from middle class union members to the Democratic Party to counteract corporation and millionaire money = undermining the political system. >:( Here's a list (http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php) of the top political donors from 1989-2010. 10 of the top 20 are unions. But of course, their contributions are just "a fraction" and that paltry amount "flowing" from "middle class union members" - who are forced to join or pay the union regardless of whether actually want to do so. And, of course, we all KNOW that "corporation and millionaire money" flows solely into GOP coffers. Who cares if, as the chart shows, that's actually not true. They fund both sides. You have Soros. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Napoleon on March 10, 2011, 02:46:06 PM Remember kids: Unfettered corporate and millionaire money flowing unchecked into the GOP coffers = good :D. A fraction of that amount flowing from middle class union members to the Democratic Party to counteract corporation and millionaire money = undermining the political system. >:( Here's a list (http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php) of the top 20 political donors from 1989-2010. 10 of them are unions. But of course, their contributions are just "a fraction"of the amount "flowing" from "middle class union members" who are forced to join or pay the union regardless of whether actually want to do so. And, of course, we all KNOW that "corporation and millionaire money" flows solely into GOP coffers. Who cares if, as the chart shows, that's actually not true. They fund both sides. You have Soros. I'm not too big on unions myself, they have only gotten what they brought upon themselves. Look at those donation figures! 98% to Democrats and 0% to Republicans, and then people wonder why the assault on unions is hitting hard right now. Even Goldman Sachs made a point to throw Republicans a bone or two. When you put all your cargo on one boat, you might well end up sinking with the ship. It is funny that Enron is one of the most Republican leaning donors on the list haha. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on March 10, 2011, 02:47:39 PM Remember kids: Unfettered corporate and millionaire money flowing unchecked into the GOP coffers = good :D. A fraction of that amount flowing from middle class union members to the Democratic Party to counteract corporation and millionaire money = undermining the political system. >:( Here's a list (http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php) of the top 20 political donors from 1989-2010. 10 of them are unions. But of course, their contributions are just "a fraction"of the amount "flowing" from "middle class union members" who are forced to join or pay the union regardless of whether actually want to do so. Does that chart capture all the money that goes into third party advocacy groups, Republican astro-turf groups with big advertising budgets, etc.? How was the ratio after Citizens United blew the doors off any restrictions on corporations financing ads to elect people who will cut checks to them in office? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Napoleon on March 10, 2011, 02:48:40 PM Remember kids: Unfettered corporate and millionaire money flowing unchecked into the GOP coffers = good :D. A fraction of that amount flowing from middle class union members to the Democratic Party to counteract corporation and millionaire money = undermining the political system. >:( Here's a list (http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php) of the top 20 political donors from 1989-2010. 10 of them are unions. But of course, their contributions are just "a fraction"of the amount "flowing" from "middle class union members" who are forced to join or pay the union regardless of whether actually want to do so. Does that chart capture all the money that goes into third party advocacy groups, Republican astro-turf groups with big advertising budgets, etc.? How was the ratio after Citizens United blew the doors off any restrictions on corporations financing ads to elect people who will cut checks to them in office? Good point, I thought it looked heavily skewed towards Democratic funding. I was wondering where all the Republican dollars were at. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Landslide Lyndon on March 10, 2011, 02:59:57 PM You have Soros. OMG!!! Soros and the other commie Zionists are taking over the country!!! They will ban christianity, legalize gay marriage and pot, and take the money out of people's pockets and give them to welfare queens from the ghetto and illegal Mexicans. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: cinyc on March 10, 2011, 03:02:52 PM Remember kids: Unfettered corporate and millionaire money flowing unchecked into the GOP coffers = good :D. A fraction of that amount flowing from middle class union members to the Democratic Party to counteract corporation and millionaire money = undermining the political system. >:( Here's a list (http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php) of the top 20 political donors from 1989-2010. 10 of them are unions. But of course, their contributions are just "a fraction"of the amount "flowing" from "middle class union members" who are forced to join or pay the union regardless of whether actually want to do so. Does that chart capture all the money that goes into third party advocacy groups, Republican astro-turf groups with big advertising budgets, etc.? How was the ratio after Citizens United blew the doors off any restrictions on corporations financing ads to elect people who will cut checks to them in office? I believe that chart shows money from PACs. I'm not sure whether that chart shows the type of third party advocacy groups you are looking for. But for every Republican-leaning one of those groups, there are also Democratic third party advocacy groups, Democratic astro-turf groups with big advertising budgets, etc. Remember MoveOn.org and complaints about George $oro$ trying to buy the 2008 elections? The system is not tilted toward either party. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on March 10, 2011, 03:14:11 PM I believe that chart shows money from PACs. I'm not sure whether that chart shows the type of third party advocacy groups you are looking for. But for every Republican-leaning one of those groups, there are also Democratic third party advocacy groups, Democratic astro-turf groups with big advertising budgets, etc. Remember MoveOn.org and complaints about George $oro$ trying to buy the 2008 elections? The system is not tilted toward either party. That last line is an assertion. I think that prior to Citizens United, you had money tilting toward power, with Republicans having a natural advantage and a cyclical advantage while they controlled Congress and in 2000, but Democrats sometimes doing better when they had the advantage (namely, the Obama campaign) and big business knew they wanted a winner, and thought McCain would suck. But with Citizens United and big business deciding to go thermonuclear on Obama, the taps were opened. I think it is far too soon to say that the effects of Citizens United is to preserve a level playing field when industries have access to more money than anyone else and have a vested interest in "encouraging" elected officials to cut taxes on their highest managers, to relax regulations for the environment and safety, etc. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: tpfkaw on March 10, 2011, 03:16:31 PM All 20 of the 20 largest industries donated more to Democrats in 2010 than Republicans.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on March 10, 2011, 03:20:09 PM All 20 of the 20 largest industries donated more to Democrats in 2010 than Republicans. Give us a link, so we can tear apart whatever bogus assumptions underlie that argument. I'm going to guess that oil and natural gas now aren't among the 20 largest industries in America, despite Exxon breaking profit records for any corporation, past or present—or that they donated to Dems in 2010? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: DrScholl on March 10, 2011, 04:15:06 PM All 20 of the 20 largest industries donated more to Democrats in 2010 than Republicans. If that is true, which it probably isn't and was made up on the spot, it doesn't mean much of anything since the Republicans do bigger and more favors for corporations than Democrats do. That aside, it's very hard to believe that industry would have given more to Democrats in 2010 of all years. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Napoleon on March 10, 2011, 05:33:58 PM It's really funny that the libertarians here all happen to be Republican hacks and oblivious to facts. It's as if eight years of George W. Bush wasn't enough government expansion for these kids.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: cinyc on March 10, 2011, 05:38:24 PM All 20 of the 20 largest industries donated more to Democrats in 2010 than Republicans. Give us a link, so we can tear apart whatever bogus assumptions underlie that argument. I'm going to guess that oil and natural gas now aren't among the 20 largest industries in America, despite Exxon breaking profit records for any corporation, past or present—or that they donated to Dems in 2010? Employees in 18 of the 20 industries that gave the most money to political candidates in 2010 contributed more to Democrats than Republicans. The only exceptions were commercial banks (barely) and oil and gas (by a wider margin). http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/mems.php Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Bacon King on March 10, 2011, 06:41:09 PM All 20 of the 20 largest industries donated more to Democrats in 2010 than Republicans. Give us a link, so we can tear apart whatever bogus assumptions underlie that argument. I'm going to guess that oil and natural gas now aren't among the 20 largest industries in America, despite Exxon breaking profit records for any corporation, past or present—or that they donated to Dems in 2010? Employees in 18 of the 20 industries that gave the most money to political candidates in 2010 contributed more to Democrats than Republicans. The only exceptions were commercial banks (barely) and oil and gas (by a wider margin). http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/mems.php I didn't know "Retired", "Leadership PACs", "Democratic/Liberal", or "Public Sector Unions" were considered industries. Also, some of these are not industries themselves but individuals that happen to be in the industry (and there's going to be a big difference between, say for example, how Ford employees vote and who their company supports). Even then, a cursory glance shows that a lot of the partisan breakdowns are skewed because many companies would be heavily Republican if you discount the huge donations they gave to Reid, Schumer, and the Democratic chairman of the committee that regulates whatever industry they're in. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: cinyc on March 10, 2011, 06:48:42 PM All 20 of the 20 largest industries donated more to Democrats in 2010 than Republicans. Give us a link, so we can tear apart whatever bogus assumptions underlie that argument. I'm going to guess that oil and natural gas now aren't among the 20 largest industries in America, despite Exxon breaking profit records for any corporation, past or present—or that they donated to Dems in 2010? Employees in 18 of the 20 industries that gave the most money to political candidates in 2010 contributed more to Democrats than Republicans. The only exceptions were commercial banks (barely) and oil and gas (by a wider margin). http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/mems.php I didn't know "Retired", "Leadership PACs", "Democratic/Liberal", or "Public Sector Unions" were considered industries. Also, some of these are not industries themselves but individuals that happen to be in the industry (and there's going to be a big difference between, say for example, how Ford employees vote and who their company supports). Even then, a cursory glance shows that a lot of the partisan breakdowns are skewed because many companies would be heavily Republican if you discount the huge donations they gave to Reid, Schumer, and the Democratic chairman of the committee that regulates whatever industry they're in. Even if you remove "Retired", "Leadership PACs" and "Democratic/Liberal", employees in 18 of the 20 top industries still contributed more to Democrats than Republicans. Public Sector Unions are an industry - they represent government workers. People contribute to those who run subject committees? Money goes to those in power, regardless of which party is in power? Who knew! But I've been told by some with red avatars that evil big business and millionaires ONLY give to Republicans... Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Ban my account ffs! on March 10, 2011, 07:13:31 PM All 20 of the 20 largest industries donated more to Democrats in 2010 than Republicans. Give us a link, so we can tear apart whatever bogus assumptions underlie that argument. I'm going to guess that oil and natural gas now aren't among the 20 largest industries in America, despite Exxon breaking profit records for any corporation, past or present—or that they donated to Dems in 2010? Employees in 18 of the 20 industries that gave the most money to political candidates in 2010 contributed more to Democrats than Republicans. The only exceptions were commercial banks (barely) and oil and gas (by a wider margin). http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/mems.php I didn't know "Retired", "Leadership PACs", "Democratic/Liberal", or "Public Sector Unions" were considered industries. Also, some of these are not industries themselves but individuals that happen to be in the industry (and there's going to be a big difference between, say for example, how Ford employees vote and who their company supports). Even then, a cursory glance shows that a lot of the partisan breakdowns are skewed because many companies would be heavily Republican if you discount the huge donations they gave to Reid, Schumer, and the Democratic chairman of the committee that regulates whatever industry they're in. Even if you remove "Retired", "Leadership PACs" and "Democratic/Liberal", employees in 18 of the 20 top industries still contributed more to Democrats than Republicans. Public Sector Unions are an industry - they represent government workers. People contribute to those who run subject committees? Money goes to those in power, regardless of which party is in power? Who knew! But I've been told by some with red avatars that evil big business and millionaires ONLY give to Republicans... All this shows is that people who work support Democrats.. while those who don't and business interests (like CEOs, lobbyists, and since 2010, the companies themselves) donate to Republicans. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on March 10, 2011, 07:24:21 PM And, again, no accounting of the money plowed into "Citizens for Health Care Choice", "Citizens Against Food Taxes," "Taxpayers for Coal Warmth," "Bald Eagles For A Balanced Environmental Policy," "Patriots for Job Growth" etc. which pound Democrats with millions of dollars in ads funded by industries who oppose Democratic policies.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: cinyc on March 10, 2011, 07:25:01 PM All this shows is that people who work support Democrats.. while those who don't and business interests (like CEOs, lobbyists, and since 2010, the companies themselves) donate to Republicans. Nice spin. Do you have any actual evidence of that or are you repeating yet another MSNBC or Talking Points Memo talking point? The fact at the link I provided is that lobbyists themselves funneled about 69% of their contributions to DEMOCRATS in 2010. And lobbying groups (http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/contribs.php?type=l&showYear=2009) gave DEMOCRATS double what they gave to Republicans in 2009, the last year for which the Center for Responsive Politics has data. Politicians are like whores. The most corporate money usually goes to the most attractive ones - those closest to the levers of power. Always has. Always will. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Marokai Backbeat on March 10, 2011, 07:25:09 PM The biggest problem here is post-Citizens United, how much more money has flooded in from billionaires, outside groups, and corporations themselves, that didn't or couldn't before. Look at outside groups on opensecrets. Midterms used to be pretty low for them.
In 2002, it was extremely low in between the two presidential election years. In 2006, outside groups spend nearly $69,000,000. In 2008, a big year and a presidential year, outside groups spent $301,000,000. That was alot, but it was a presidential year, and a major election in it's own right. Then 2010. Midterm election year, you expect it to go back down, right? Wrong. Post-Citizens United, outside groups spent roughly $298,500,000. After the floodgates opened, big money from outside groups poured into elections like never before, in elections that traditionally get much lower attention than presidential elections. And of the ballooning outside group spending, 7 out of 10 of the top spending outside groups were right-wing. The only three that weren't, were unions. Including the teacher's union and the public employees union founded in Wisconsin. People in industries donate to candidates. Shocker. The real big deal here is where the new huge tidal waves of cash are coming in, and that's from outside groups, corporations, and billionaires now completely unrestrained because of the Supreme Court. And the only people still holding on in the outside group category are the unions. A few corporations and a handful of billionaires vs. millions of working people banding together in their defense. I think I, at least, know the nobler side of that fight. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Franzl on March 10, 2011, 07:27:27 PM I'm perfectly willing to discuss (at least partial) public financing of campaigns in connection with private spending limits.
Actually seems like a reasonable thing. These political issues shouldn't be about politics. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: tpfkaw on March 10, 2011, 07:29:55 PM A few corporations and a handful of billionaires vs. millions of working people banding together in their defense. I think I, at least, know the nobler side of that fight. Which you are, quite literally, watching from the sidelines. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: cinyc on March 10, 2011, 07:31:13 PM And, again, no accounting of the money plowed into "Citizens for Health Care Choice", "Citizens Against Food Taxes," "Taxpayers for Coal Warmth," "Bald Eagles For A Balanced Environmental Policy," "Patriots for Job Growth" etc. which pound Democrats with millions of dollars in ads funded by industries who oppose Democratic policies. Or the money of MoveOn.org or EMILY's List or America Votes, or the various unions, etc. which pound Republican with millions of dollars in ads funded by industries who oppose Republicans policies. But wait... There's a list of who the 527s supported, too. Care to guess who had more support from 527s the past four cycles? Hint (http://www.opensecrets.org/527s/index.php). Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Marokai Backbeat on March 10, 2011, 07:33:15 PM A few corporations and a handful of billionaires vs. millions of working people banding together in their defense. I think I, at least, know the nobler side of that fight. Which you are, quite literally, watching from the sidelines. Another post, another time you've completely avoided seriously discussing the issue at hand. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Napoleon on March 10, 2011, 07:55:18 PM If money made elections, Tom Foley and Linda McMahon would be Governor and US Senator right now. Oh, and Jerry Brown wouldn't have won by a huge margin in California.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Franzl on March 10, 2011, 08:03:08 PM If money made elections, Tom Foley and Linda McMahon would be Governor and US Senator right now. Oh, and Jerry Brown wouldn't have won by a huge margin in California. It sure doesn't hurt. Otherwise corporations wouldn't be donating those amounts. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Napoleon on March 10, 2011, 08:07:33 PM If money made elections, Tom Foley and Linda McMahon would be Governor and US Senator right now. Oh, and Jerry Brown wouldn't have won by a huge margin in California. It sure doesn't hurt. Otherwise corporations wouldn't be donating those amounts. It's kinda stupid though. People won elections with less than half the money spent now only a few years ago. I don't get what's changed other than, well, more money. Wouldn't elections be just as competitive with $100,000 vs. $100,000 as they are with $2,500,000 vs. $2,500,000? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Franzl on March 10, 2011, 08:11:21 PM Yes. And that's precisely why I would be quite willing to discuss spending caps.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Napoleon on March 10, 2011, 08:14:10 PM Caps make sense to me too, my only dilemma is for self-funding candidates.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on March 10, 2011, 08:41:44 PM I'm less worried about money making elections than money making policy... some industries can buy Congressional votes by pouring tons of money into an attack campaign, but they also can buy votes by the threat of running campaign ads against an incumbent.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on March 10, 2011, 10:38:08 PM To the point on the ultimate legal issue of whether a supermajority quorum is required for all bills fiscal in nature or just some, there is a 1971 formal opinion from the Wisconsin attorney general stating that a bill altering collective bargaining rights isn't fiscal as it is narrowly defined by the relevant Wisconsin constitutional provision and therefore not subject to the supermajority quorum. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1773153 Game. Set. Game set?? So its game set that Walker and the Republicans lied the entire time with the comment that this was about anything fiscal or budgetary in nature. This has nothing to do with the deficit whatsoever. So thanks for proving Walker and the Republicans lied their asses off. Not to mention the whole breaking the open meetings law. The full bill IS fiscal in nature, within the meaning of the constitution's super-majority quorum requirement. The collective bargaining piece of the bill potentially affects budgets, especially county and local ones, down the road, but isn't swept up by the super-majority requirement. Wisconsin courts have taken a narrow view on what is fiscal for those purposes. Even incurring short-term debt isn't. How is this so difficult to understand? Thanks again for proving Walker and the Republicans lied their asses off. They were the ones who claimed it was fiscal in nature. They were the ones that argued it was a budget issue. They were the ones that argued it was a deficit issue. With how it was passed, its obvious that it wasn't. So that shows that Walker and the GOP were lying their asses off when they suggested this was a deficit or a budget issue. Its not and never has been, this was about Union busting plain and simple and was from the get go. So you are saying the final arbiter of what has a budgetary impact and what does not, is the parliamentary rules of the Wisconsin State Senate? Do the procedural rules change the impact of the bill's language? When you consider that this was passed primarily for the benefit of "County and city" budgets, it is perfectly reasonable for a law being passed that could impact those one way or the other and have it not fall under the procedural definitions of a fiscal matter which are only in relation to state gov't budgetary matters. When one looks at it from a purely factural standpoint, there is no lie in saying you are passing something to fix a fscual issue but address it through the standard process because it s not a direct budget issue under the procedures. Granted your purpose is to score partisan points and trying to create a public outrage over dishonesty because no one likes dishonest politicians, of course. And on this front you are doing well, I might add. And one more thing. Shouldn't the language of the bill and its likely effects determine its impact on the fiscal situation? I mean if one were to say something has no fiscal impact based solely on the procedure used to pass it, well one would be foolish to be surprised when they realize it in fact does have an impact. Take for example a hike in the minimum wage. Common sense tells us that it effects tax revenues from the income tax. However lets say it doesn't meet the definition of a "fiscal matter" in the State Senate procedures (not sure whether it does or not in WI). Does it thus not have an effect on revenues as I mentioned because it doesn't meet those guidelines? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Ban my account ffs! on March 10, 2011, 10:53:11 PM All this shows is that people who work support Democrats.. while those who don't and business interests (like CEOs, lobbyists, and since 2010, the companies themselves) donate to Republicans. Nice spin. Do you have any actual evidence of that or are you repeating yet another MSNBC or Talking Points Memo talking point? The fact at the link I provided is that lobbyists themselves funneled about 69% of their contributions to DEMOCRATS in 2010. And lobbying groups (http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/contribs.php?type=l&showYear=2009) gave DEMOCRATS double what they gave to Republicans in 2009, the last year for which the Center for Responsive Politics has data. Politicians are like whores. The most corporate money usually goes to the most attractive ones - those closest to the levers of power. Always has. Always will. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: cinyc on March 10, 2011, 11:12:18 PM All this shows is that people who work support Democrats.. while those who don't and business interests (like CEOs, lobbyists, and since 2010, the companies themselves) donate to Republicans. Nice spin. Do you have any actual evidence of that or are you repeating yet another MSNBC or Talking Points Memo talking point? The fact at the link I provided is that lobbyists themselves funneled about 69% of their contributions to DEMOCRATS in 2010. And lobbying groups (http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/contribs.php?type=l&showYear=2009) gave DEMOCRATS double what they gave to Republicans in 2009, the last year for which the Center for Responsive Politics has data. Politicians are like whores. The most corporate money usually goes to the most attractive ones - those closest to the levers of power. Always has. Always will. You are arguing with yourself, not me. You initially wrote "All this shows is that people who work support Democrats.. while those who don't and business interests (like ... lobbyists, and since 2010, the companies themselves) donate to Republicans." Either lobbyists always donate to Republicans or give to the party in power. Which is it? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Torie on March 10, 2011, 11:34:36 PM Regarding the stripping of power of public employee unions without the quorum requirement, that was always on the table. The Pubbies really, really, wanted to package it as part of a fiscal save Wisconsin from BK thing (Pubbies can read polls too), and the parties were negotiating about the price of letting the Pubbies have their conflation. The price the Pubbies were offering, was apparently not high enough for the Dems, so the Pubbies had a choice of just waiting the Dems out, and hoping something would happen to get them back, or biting the bullet, and abandoning their conflation act. They choose the latter.
Yes, this is all my personal speculation, but I am almost sure this is what happened. Yes I am. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Badger on March 11, 2011, 01:27:06 PM You're failing to so the exact same argument applies to corporations. Why not let any money spent on contribution to political candidates be prorated to employees or shareholders and be "voluntary" for the workers or investors decide whether that money will be spent. For all your bloviating about the evils of "union big money", Krazen, you're amazingly silent on the significantly larger amount of money spent by corporations and extremely wealthy individuals like the Kochs on the GOP. Are you fine with there being no counterbalance to that money. No, it doesn't at all. If I am a shareholder of Microsoft and I don't like it, I can sell my securities and be done with Microsoft for good. If I am a union member and I don't like the union, I can quit the union, but they still have the right to confiscate as much money from my paycheck as they choose to. The rest of this is the fiction that public sector union pigs counterbalance anything. They don't. All they do is feed at the trough and demand more and more taxes on the working class, which is why Jon Corzine utterly gutted property tax relief throughout NJ even as unemployment was skyrocketing. The NJEA doesn't really care about what Walmart or any company does, one way or another. The unions had no problem ramming through their own agenda in your own state. But I'm glad to see more crocodile tears from crying Ohio Democrats; it makes me laugh. And funny how this being "rammed through" in 1983 hasn't caused any notable public outcry outside GOP party hacks and Chamber of Commerce lobbyists. This matter wasn't brought up in Ohio's recent election campaign either. Nor was there any great public hue and cry to get rid of this awful system, it was merely a wish list of large corporations. Note the opposite occurring now that repeal is looming. The public back the unions---even among non-unionized households. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 11, 2011, 02:50:36 PM And funny how this being "rammed through" in 1983 hasn't caused any notable public outcry outside GOP party hacks and Chamber of Commerce lobbyists. This matter wasn't brought up in Ohio's recent election campaign either. Nor was there any great public hue and cry to get rid of this awful system, it was merely a wish list of large corporations. Note the opposite occurring now that repeal is looming. The public back the unions---even among non-unionized households. Blatantly ignoring and lying about the history of Ohio Democrats is funny? I guess I missed the joke. Part of Kasich's campaign was the repeal/modification of the AFL-CIO power grab of 1983. And of course, he won, and the Democrats got shellacked. The protests are a mere bunch of loudmouths. The Republicans there had the silent majority on their side in November 2010, and they will in the next election. If you want to believe that party line ramming is and should only be a 1 sided affair, you might as well just say so. It's not an invalid position. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Badger on March 11, 2011, 04:01:03 PM And funny how this being "rammed through" in 1983 hasn't caused any notable public outcry outside GOP party hacks and Chamber of Commerce lobbyists. This matter wasn't brought up in Ohio's recent election campaign either. Nor was there any great public hue and cry to get rid of this awful system, it was merely a wish list of large corporations. Note the opposite occurring now that repeal is looming. The public back the unions---even among non-unionized households. Blatantly ignoring and lying about the history of Ohio Democrats is funny? I guess I missed the joke. Part of Kasich's campaign was the repeal/modification of the AFL-CIO power grab of 1983. And of course, he won, and the Democrats got shellacked. The protests are a mere bunch of loudmouths. The Republicans there had the silent majority on their side in November 2010, and they will in the next election. If you want to believe that party line ramming is and should only be a 1 sided affair, you might as well just say so. It's not an invalid position. Polls show the majority--both silent and otherwise--oppose Walker and the Republicans in Wisconsin. I haven't seen any polls from Ohio yet, but its telling that unlike 1983 a quarter of Ohio Senate Republicans even opposed and voted against SB5 here the other week. If you know how monolithic and united the Ohio GOP was even compared to other states, the fact a quarter of them bailed (one was even replaced on a committee by the caucus to get the bill out of committee) should tell you where "the silent majority" stands here. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Sbane on March 11, 2011, 05:54:08 PM If money made elections, Tom Foley and Linda McMahon would be Governor and US Senator right now. Oh, and Jerry Brown wouldn't have won by a huge margin in California. It tends to affect policy making more than elections, which is more important imho. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: The Dowager Mod on March 11, 2011, 10:18:48 PM Got my layoff notice today. :(
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: © tweed on March 11, 2011, 10:19:29 PM Got my layoff notice today. :( God bless you Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Marokai Backbeat on March 11, 2011, 10:19:49 PM Got my layoff notice today. :( :( Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Dgov on March 12, 2011, 05:34:07 AM Gallup has a new poll out on "Union favorability" using a positive/negative word association
http://www.gallup.com/poll/146588/Republicans-Negative-Democrats-Positive-Describing-Unions.aspx To summarize, Unions are associated with "negative" words more than "positive" words 38-34, though this doesn't compare directly with some of the other polls taken (so they're not mutually exclusive). Democrats are under 50% positive on Unions, Republicans are under 60% negative on Unions, and it looks like (from averages) that true unaffiliated are essentially in-between. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: opebo on March 12, 2011, 06:23:54 AM Got my layoff notice today. :( WisconsinGurl, a qualified (teaching license) American citizen teacher can make $3,500/month in Bangkok at a any of the many very-high end international schools. There is a huge and unsatisfied demand for this type of teacher, and you would make double what an ordinary teacher would make, because of your qualifications. Female teachers are especially in demand. You will also receive a one month bonus at the end of the year and at least 2 months holiday. Some schools will give you a free apartment. Total compensation averages about $45,000/year in a country where taxes are about 5%, a very well located basic apartment is $200/month and a large luxury condo is about $600/month (Bangkok prices). Obviously you can make double this in the Middle East, with much more paid for (free accomodation, etc., but quality of life in Bangkok is excellent. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 12, 2011, 03:46:10 PM Polls show the majority--both silent and otherwise--oppose Walker and the Republicans in Wisconsin. I haven't seen any polls from Ohio yet, but its telling that unlike 1983 a quarter of Ohio Senate Republicans even opposed and voted against SB5 here the other week. If you know how monolithic and united the Ohio GOP was even compared to other states, the fact a quarter of them bailed (one was even replaced on a committee by the caucus to get the bill out of committee) should tell you where "the silent majority" stands here. That's telling, but not of the silent majority. Rather, its more telling about the power of the AFL-CIO and the AFSCME to be bullies, and the fact that the Ohio GOP is rather overextended in the legislature. Ohio Senate Democrats, as far as i can tell, are reduced to the Mahoning Valley and the black seats, and they got shellacked in the entire rest of the state. There's no need to speculate though. It's going to referendum soon enough Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Nichlemn on March 13, 2011, 11:02:36 AM Can someone explain to me why public unions are needed? Why can't the legislature dictate compensation levels and the voters can decide if they're insufficient, just like for any other spending?
Full post on the issue on another forum (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=25358323&postcount=2814) Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: opebo on March 13, 2011, 04:52:58 PM Can someone explain to me why public unions are needed? Why can't the legislature dictate compensation levels and the voters can decide if they're insufficient, just like for any other spending? Full post on the issue on another forum (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=25358323&postcount=2814) Democracy does nothing whatever to protect workers, niclemn, and your idea that a certain amount of compensation is 'overcompensation' is baseless and subjective. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Nichlemn on March 14, 2011, 01:26:49 AM Democracy does nothing whatever to protect workers, niclemn, So are you claiming that public workers should be protected from wage cuts even if a majority of voters supported them, or that representative democracy should be curbed from being able to make unpopular wage cuts? Quote and your idea that a certain amount of compensation is 'overcompensation' is baseless and subjective. Well, political debates are inherently subjective. But baseless? There is plenty of public choice literature about the phenomenon of rent-seeking. The general idea is that lobby groups are able to achieve privileges for themselves because the benefits to them are concentrated, whereas the costs are diffused through numerous taxpayers who individually have little incentive to attempt to stop it. Now, this doesn't show that public employees are "overcompensated" (even if we could agree on a definition of that). Perhaps, in the absence of unions, public employees would be "undercompensated" and so union power simply balances out whether would cause the low compensation. But without knowing the size of these effects, it's possible that it goes too far. If you're coming up with a theory for why democratic forces reduce public employee compensation below the optimal, it's disingenous if you don't consider the ways that democratic forces may also increase it. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on March 14, 2011, 07:14:59 AM There is plenty of public choice literature about the phenomenon of rent-seeking. There's public choice writings on almost everything, but most of us choose not to take that lunacy seriously. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on March 14, 2011, 07:48:14 AM Can someone explain to me why public unions are needed? For much the same reason trade unions are needed in other industries. To represent the workforce, to defend its rights and to argue on its behalf. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on March 14, 2011, 08:33:59 AM Got my layoff notice today. :( :( Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Nichlemn on March 14, 2011, 09:02:31 AM There is plenty of public choice literature about the phenomenon of rent-seeking. There's public choice writings on almost everything, but most of us choose not to take that lunacy seriously. Nice argument. Quote For much the same reason trade unions are needed in other industries. To represent the workforce, to defend its rights and to argue on its behalf. That's their purpose, yes. That doesn't say anything about whether they are "needed" or "good". After all, a cartel can be formed for similar purposes and I bet you don't approve of cartels. The reason I distinguish between private and public unions is that the government is generally seen as a much stronger force for social justice than business, presumably making it more likely that they will compensate "fairly" irrespective of union status. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on March 14, 2011, 10:30:23 AM There is plenty of public choice literature about the phenomenon of rent-seeking. There's public choice writings on almost everything, but most of us choose not to take that lunacy seriously. Nice argument. I would write similar things about (for example), post-modernism, woolly leftish theories of all kinds, the cruder kinds of 'Marxism', most contemporary sociological theories and all forms of evolutionary reductionist bollocks. And have, actually. Quote That doesn't say anything about whether they are "needed" or "good". What do you mean by 'needed' and what do you mean by 'good'? As a Socialist, I would argue that they are a good thing for the workforce and are thus 'needed'. People with different views might disagree. Quote The reason I distinguish between private and public unions is that the government is generally seen as a much stronger force for social justice than business, presumably making it more likely that they will compensate "fairly" irrespective of union status. It's not just a matter of 'compensation', but in any case experience would tend to disagree with your assertion, at least up to a point. Public sector concerns are inevitably large and bureaucratic (not a criticism as it isn't possible to run certain things in any other way) making negotiation between an individual worker and management a joke. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: opebo on March 14, 2011, 02:56:57 PM The reason I distinguish between private and public unions is that the government is generally seen as a much stronger force for social justice than business, presumably making it more likely that they will compensate "fairly" irrespective of union status. That may be the general belief, but obviously 'business' can only be as oppressive as the State empowers it to be - the whole public/private dichotomy is a false one. In a capitalist system, to expect the state to for some reason to be less rapacious than its clients is a pipe dream. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Badger on March 14, 2011, 10:31:27 PM Got my layoff notice today. :( :( Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on March 15, 2011, 12:38:14 PM Good news for Ohioans (from PPP):
Do you approve or disapprove of John Kasich's job performance? Approve 35% Disapprove 54% Not sure 11% More results here (http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_OH_0315513.pdf (http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_OH_0315513.pdf))showing doomsday news for Republicans. Lesson: don't mess with unions in states with a big working class/union tradition. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Lief 🗽 on March 15, 2011, 01:46:59 PM Wow. That's worse than Walker.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: opebo on March 15, 2011, 02:13:02 PM ore results here (http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_OH_0315513.pdf (http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_OH_0315513.pdf))showing doomsday news for Republicans. Lesson: don't mess with unions in states with a big working class/union tradition. Could you post some of these results or another non-pdf link? I can't open pdfs on the computer I'm using. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Dgov on March 15, 2011, 02:15:13 PM Wow. That's worse than Walker. Which is why it doesn't pass the smell test for me. Numbers that bad basically require you to have a significant portion of your base abandon you, and i don't really buy that. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Smash255 on March 15, 2011, 02:29:10 PM Wow. That's worse than Walker. Which is why it doesn't pass the smell test for me. Numbers that bad basically require you to have a significant portion of your base abandon you, and i don't really buy that. It is a few weeks later than the Walker poll. I would think at this point Walker's #'s have dropped from where they were then. The party breakout of the poll was the same as the 08 exit polls (Dems +8) as opposed to the midterms which was even, so that may explain a bit. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Lief 🗽 on March 15, 2011, 02:31:28 PM This should help Sherrod Brown's chances. He's exactly the type of candidate to benefit from a populist, pro-union backlash.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: krazen1211 on March 15, 2011, 03:28:14 PM Wow. That's worse than Walker. Which is why it doesn't pass the smell test for me. Numbers that bad basically require you to have a significant portion of your base abandon you, and i don't really buy that. The poll has a very large sample of Democrats and liberals far beyond the actual Ohio electorate, especially in a midterm year. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Landslide Lyndon on March 15, 2011, 04:22:21 PM Wow. That's worse than Walker. Which is why it doesn't pass the smell test for me. Numbers that bad basically require you to have a significant portion of your base abandon you, and i don't really buy that. It is a few weeks later than the Walker poll. I would think at this point Walker's #'s have dropped from where they were then. The party breakout of the poll was the same as the 08 exit polls (Dems +8) as opposed to the midterms which was even, so that may explain a bit. Even with 2010 numbers, Kasich must have a "healthy" -10 approval. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: I spent the winter writing songs about getting better on March 18, 2011, 11:03:48 AM Just breaking that a judge has blocked the law.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on March 18, 2011, 11:06:24 AM I suppose it's the open meetings provision? The Senate will pass it again under proper rules, but that keeps it in the news even longer, which is only good news for the recalls.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on March 18, 2011, 11:16:09 AM Most likely open meeting provisions, b33, but the pubs knew that anyway....the drama of doing it like they did served their purpose, but as you note....they'll just pass it again anyway. I bet some of the pubs view the extra drama it as good news, in spite of any potential recall petitions.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Landslide Lyndon on March 18, 2011, 11:46:19 AM Most likely open meeting provisions, b33, but the pubs knew that anyway....the drama of doing it like they did served their purpose, but as you note....they'll just pass it again anyway. I bet some of the pubs view the extra drama it as good news, in spite of any potential recall petitions. Huh? Being in the news about breaking the rules while passing an unpopular bill is somehow beneficial for Republicans? I doubt even Walker himself wouldn't spin it like that. http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/03/judge-blocks-wisconsins-union-busting-bill-on-procedural-grounds.php (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/03/judge-blocks-wisconsins-union-busting-bill-on-procedural-grounds.php) A state judge in Wisconsin has just issued a temporary restraining order blocking Gov. Scott Walker's (R-WI) newly-passed law curtailing public employee unions, on the grounds that the GOP-controlled legislature appeared to have violated state public notice requirements when quickly passing the bill last week. "It seems to me the public policy behind effective enforcement of the open meeting law is so strong that it does outweigh the interest, at least at this time, which may exist in favor of sustaining the validity of the (law)," wrote Judge Maryann Sumi, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reports. A key thing to note here is that this is a procedural objection, and not a constitutional finding based on the content of the law itself. As such, even if the bill's opponents secure a permanent injunction in further litigation -- and then prevail in any appeals to higher courts -- the Republican-controlled could still theoretically get together and pass the bill again. But of course, that would involve having the legislature convene again, protesters swarming the Capitol again, and a very tough vote occurring in a rerun. Even if the Republicans were willing to do that, it would only give further political fuel to the Dems. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on March 18, 2011, 11:58:30 AM Most likely open meeting provisions, b33, but the pubs knew that anyway....the drama of doing it like they did served their purpose, but as you note....they'll just pass it again anyway. I bet some of the pubs view the extra drama it as good news, in spite of any potential recall petitions. Huh? Being in the news about breaking the rules while passing an unpopular bill is somehow beneficial for Republicans? I doubt even Walker himself wouldn't spin it like that. The pubs knew exactly what was going to happen by doing this in the middle of the night.....so why did they do it if all it could do was hurt them? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on March 18, 2011, 12:02:35 PM The pubs knew exactly what was going to happen by doing this in the middle of the night.....so why did they do it if all it could do was hurt them? I wonder. I don't think the senators counted on this happening, I really don't. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Landslide Lyndon on March 18, 2011, 12:06:48 PM Most likely open meeting provisions, b33, but the pubs knew that anyway....the drama of doing it like they did served their purpose, but as you note....they'll just pass it again anyway. I bet some of the pubs view the extra drama it as good news, in spite of any potential recall petitions. Huh? Being in the news about breaking the rules while passing an unpopular bill is somehow beneficial for Republicans? I doubt even Walker himself wouldn't spin it like that. The pubs knew exactly what was going to happen by doing this in the middle of the night.....so why did they do it if all it could do was hurt them? Because they panicked? Certainly they didn't expect to become a national spectacle and having as their leader a certified moron like Walker didn't help their cause. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: The Dowager Mod on March 18, 2011, 12:19:48 PM Most likely open meeting provisions, b33, but the pubs knew that anyway....the drama of doing it like they did served their purpose, but as you note....they'll just pass it again anyway. I bet some of the pubs view the extra drama it as good news, in spite of any potential recall petitions. Huh? Being in the news about breaking the rules while passing an unpopular bill is somehow beneficial for Republicans? I doubt even Walker himself wouldn't spin it like that. The pubs knew exactly what was going to happen by doing this in the middle of the night.....so why did they do it if all it could do was hurt them? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: The Dowager Mod on April 01, 2011, 03:30:45 PM We have more than enough signatures to recall Kapanke from La Crosse and we are very close with Darling from River Hills.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Capitan Zapp Brannigan on April 01, 2011, 03:59:16 PM Have they gotten enough for Hopper yet?
Either way, great news for the recall efforts. It will be interesting to see if any of the Dem senators get recalled. Who do you think will win the Supreme Court election TexasGurl? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: The Dowager Mod on April 01, 2011, 04:05:37 PM Kloppenburg in a close one.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on April 01, 2011, 07:37:57 PM Meritorious, TG, but will it stop the law from taking effect or being overturned?
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Landslide Lyndon on April 01, 2011, 07:53:37 PM Have they gotten enough for Hopper yet? Hopper was the first one for whom they collected enough signatures. http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/118847354.html (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/118847354.html) The recall campaign against Sen. Randy Hopper (R-Fond du Lac) may or may not have enough signatures to force a recall election, though volunteers don't plan to stop collecting them before next week. Scott Dillman, a former Department of Corrections employee who is one of the campaign's coordinators, wouldn't say directly Tuesday that volunteers had collected the 15,269 signatures required to force the election. But he said that volunteers were planning a last push for signatures on election day next Tuesday, and that he's hoping that the total collected will be "closer to 30,000 than 15,000." Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Dgov on April 01, 2011, 08:51:07 PM Wisconsin Teacher charged with death threats against Republican Lawmakers.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/04/01/wisconsin.budget.death.threats/ Probably won't change much--the news cycle here has already moved on. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Citizen (The) Doctor on April 01, 2011, 10:26:55 PM Wisconsin Teacher charged with death threats against Republican Lawmakers. http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/04/01/wisconsin.budget.death.threats/ Probably won't change much--the news cycle here has already moved on. I'd actually eat my hat if this turns out to be significant news. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: The Dowager Mod on April 01, 2011, 11:47:24 PM Meritorious, TG, but will it stop the law from taking effect or being overturned? Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on April 02, 2011, 08:59:09 AM Meritorious, TG, but will it stop the law from taking effect or being overturned? I'm glad you realized it wasn't a rhetorical question......thanks for the info! Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on April 02, 2011, 09:38:31 AM How insane is it that we have to assume the political leanings of the justice will determine how they would rule on a case that is purely about procedure under the law where there is no undefined gray area. I don't even know what Walker's argument would be. He's clearly in the wrong on Open Meetings, hence the steamroller approach to establish facts on the ground.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: cinyc on April 02, 2011, 02:08:31 PM How insane is it that we have to assume the political leanings of the justice will determine how they would rule on a case that is purely about procedure under the law where there is no undefined gray area. I don't even know what Walker's argument would be. He's clearly in the wrong on Open Meetings, hence the steamroller approach to establish facts on the ground. If you only read the left wing blogosphere echo chamber, which is often uncritically regurgitated by the mainstream media, Walker has no argument. In the real world, there is a very good argument that no violation occurred (http://sharkandshepherd.blogspot.com/2011/03/sumi-decision-closer-look.html). Under the open meetings law, Senate rules trump the Open Meetings Law. And those rules were followed. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Brittain33 on April 02, 2011, 05:29:31 PM How insane is it that we have to assume the political leanings of the justice will determine how they would rule on a case that is purely about procedure under the law where there is no undefined gray area. I don't even know what Walker's argument would be. He's clearly in the wrong on Open Meetings, hence the steamroller approach to establish facts on the ground. If you only read the left wing blogosphere echo chamber, which is often uncritically regurgitated by the mainstream media, Walker has no argument. I admire the craftsmanship in this sentence. I wonder if you can google up a link from a conservative blog that proves that Walker was right to pretend the law had passed because the LRB published it, too. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: cinyc on April 02, 2011, 08:51:18 PM How insane is it that we have to assume the political leanings of the justice will determine how they would rule on a case that is purely about procedure under the law where there is no undefined gray area. I don't even know what Walker's argument would be. He's clearly in the wrong on Open Meetings, hence the steamroller approach to establish facts on the ground. If you only read the left wing blogosphere echo chamber, which is often uncritically regurgitated by the mainstream media, Walker has no argument. I admire the craftsmanship in this sentence. I wonder if you can google up a link from a conservative blog that proves that Walker was right to pretend the law had passed because the LRB published it, too. I never said that anything proves anything. I said that your claim that Walker has no arguments is simply incorrect. The people who brought the lawsuit never sued the person responsible for publishing Michigan's laws. As such, the injunction did not apply to him. Moreover, a Wisconsin judge has no power whatsoever to stop a law from being published. Court challenges can only be brought after a law has gone into effect. Otherwise, there is no case or controversy to begin with, as there is no law on the books to sue about. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: The Dowager Mod on April 19, 2011, 04:47:53 PM Two more petitions were filed today, against Luther Olsen and against Sheila Harsdorf.
Up to 4 and getting close with Darling. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: The Dowager Mod on May 04, 2011, 12:09:57 AM The Democrat won the special election to fill a seat in the assembly that was Republican for16 years, he mostly ran against walker not his opponent.
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Lief 🗽 on May 04, 2011, 02:53:04 AM Does this mean the GOP doesn't have a quorum-proof majority anymore?
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Dgov on May 04, 2011, 10:45:04 AM Does this mean the GOP doesn't have a quorum-proof majority anymore? No, those seats were vacant at the start of the session. Reps added 2, Dems added 1, so the numbers are now 59-38-1, so the GOP has just over 60% (and therefore quorum-proof) majority. I think there's another Special election though, but its a Safe Dem seat in Madison. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: ag on May 04, 2011, 09:06:53 PM Does this mean the GOP doesn't have a quorum-proof majority anymore? No, those seats were vacant at the start of the session. Reps added 2, Dems added 1, so the numbers are now 59-38-1, so the GOP has just over 60% (and therefore quorum-proof) majority. I think there's another Special election though, but its a Safe Dem seat in Madison. And once that's filled the republicans will have 59.59% of the seats - though they'd still be able to get to the quorum w/ the independent, if he chooses to turn out. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Mr.Phips on May 04, 2011, 09:17:14 PM Does this mean the GOP doesn't have a quorum-proof majority anymore? No, those seats were vacant at the start of the session. Reps added 2, Dems added 1, so the numbers are now 59-38-1, so the GOP has just over 60% (and therefore quorum-proof) majority. I think there's another Special election though, but its a Safe Dem seat in Madison. And once that's filled the republicans will have 59.59% of the seats - though they'd still be able to get to the quorum w/ the independent, if he chooses to turn out. The independent caucuses with Democrats. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Dgov on May 04, 2011, 10:32:08 PM Does this mean the GOP doesn't have a quorum-proof majority anymore? No, those seats were vacant at the start of the session. Reps added 2, Dems added 1, so the numbers are now 59-38-1, so the GOP has just over 60% (and therefore quorum-proof) majority. I think there's another Special election though, but its a Safe Dem seat in Madison. And once that's filled the republicans will have 59.59% of the seats - though they'd still be able to get to the quorum w/ the independent, if he chooses to turn out. yeah, but by that point it won't really matter. Its not like the Democrats are inkling to repeat that boondoggle all over again Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Ban my account ffs! on May 06, 2011, 06:14:39 PM http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/05/wis-dems-alleging-gop-fraud-in-recalls.php?ref=fpblg
Sorry again for Talkingpointsmemo, but this was just too good. So, Wisconsin Republicans... desperate to recall Democrats, pay people from out of state on a per signature basis in order to beef up the petitions... and at least one name rung some bells... of a man, whose widow assures us has been dead for 20 years, that showed up on the petition. How'd that happen? His name still appears in the phone book. This opens up a whole can of worms since it's very very very very unlikely that whoever put his name in there only got his name from the phone book. This is honestly just too good. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Joe Republic on May 06, 2011, 06:19:21 PM Dead people's names?? On a petition?!? Now I've truly seen everything...
Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Landslide Lyndon on May 06, 2011, 06:35:54 PM Dead people's names?? On a petition?!? Now I've truly seen everything... Voter fraud!!! I betcha it's all the fault of those damn Mexicans. Wisconsin is crawling with them. Title: Re: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown Post by: Badger on May 10, 2011, 03:55:09 PM It's ACORN's doing for sure!
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