Talk Elections

Under the fourteenth amendment, anyone born in the United States is a citizen. This amendment, if passed, will revoke automatic citizenship to the children of illegal immigrants born after the amendment is ratified.

Is this a good idea, or no?

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.J.RES.44: (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.J.RES.44:)

SECTION 1. No person born in the United States after the date of the ratification of this article shall be a citizen of the United States, or of any State, on account of birth in the United States unless the mother or father of the person is a citizen of the United States, or is lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States, at the time of the birth.

SECTION 2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

I'm surprised to see so many "no" answers. Is there any particular reason that the children of illegal aliens should be U.S. citizens?

umm..Deporting children is morally corrupt? Besides, they have no "home" for you to deport them to.

They'd be deported with their parents, of course.

I say yes to it provided we make legal immigration easier.

That would be cruel. Germany doesn't allow people born of even legal immigrants there to become citizens, which is worse.

How is that cruel? People shouldn't be able to come over here illegally and have families with the legal rights of the rest of us.

This is probably the dumbest thing I've heard all day.

You shouldn't punish the child for thier parent's actions.

It's not about punishing the child. It's about not rewarding outlaws by giving them legal leverage in the United States.

I for one think this amendment should apply retroactively to anyone under the age of 18.

What's this obsession with kicking people out of the country anyway?  Besides, if you want to stop illegal immigration, stop them from coming in.

It's racism thinly veiled in the mask of "security".

Racism => throwing people out of the country because of their race.

Legalism => throwing people out of the country because they're not here legally.

You know as well as I do that the vast majority of illegal immigrants are Mexican. It was people like you that put the "No Dogs or Irish" signs up in New York in the eighteen-hundreds.

So the reason we're not supposed to throw them out is because they happen to be Mexican?

Phillip probably doesn't have a problem with legal Mexican immigrants - it's the ones who do not respect the laws of our lands and come here without our permission that he has a problem with, and that applies to any race I would imagine. I have the same problem - if you aren't fleeing a dictator like Castro, in which case you are more of a refugee than an immigrant, you are practically an invader, someone who has no respect for the sovereign borders of our nation.

I do believe immigration should be made easier, but if you want to live here you have to prove you have respect for the law.

But Kodratos was arguing that the obsession with this legalism comes from racist motives.

I don't agree completely, but I think anti-immigration does often become a façade to mask and legitimize racist goals.  I think the same thing about the state's rights movement in the 60's.


I think it's wrong to equate an illegal immigrant as an "invade."  There is a difference between someone who wants to pillage and rape your villages and someone who wants to do crappy jobs that no one else wants to do in order to fulfill their own "American dreams" of a better life.  It's not at the expense of everyone else.  Sure, they "take our jobs," by perhaps working at Walmart, but they also create them since they buy TVs and clothes just like everyone else.

I think skilled immigration should be unlimited and advocate greatly increasing unskilled as well.  It has to be somewhat gradual, otherwise it'll put strains on governmental services and the economy.

As I said, immigration should be easier. I also don't think they 'take our jobs', they instead probably generate jobs, and they take the ones people born here don't want. I think having people come here is good overall, as it provides cheap labor that helps reduce the trade deficit. I do think we shouldn't hand out lots of government benefits to them - they should live just like everyone else. If they want to work, let them in to work, but they better work, otherwise they shouldn't expect help.

However, as I said, I don't like it when people disregard our laws. Certainly, they are not the worst of invaders, but they are invaders - they enter our land without permission. If you wish to live somewhere, you should respect the laws that have been put forth.

Agreed.

Ok, you and I are mostly on the same page.

You place a bit more emphasis on this violation of sovereignty than I do, but that's about it.

How are the children outlaws?

The parents have legal leverage if they have children here. The kids are outlaws because they're not supposed to be in this country.

I believe we have had this conversation before (many times).

None of us are supposed to be in this country!!!! This was not our land!!! Everyones relatives are immigrants!!!! I don't see the benefit of punishing these innocent "outlaws". I certainly see a lot of detriments.

So what you're saying is:
1. we stole this land
2. let's let them steal it too

YES

I don't see how allowing inncent children to stay in the US is allowing them to steal our nation. I am pointing out a flaw in your argument that anyone whose parents immigrated to the US without belonging here deserves to have their citizenship removed.

Also.....you still haven't pointed out any benefits of this cruel proposal

Less socialists. Duh. Have you seen what has happened to California?

So you want to send innocent people out of the nation simply because some of them might be socialists. That smells of fascism. Maybe we should just ban anyone who doesn't vote republican from ever having children!!! Better yet, keep democrats from voting. I GOT IT. MAYBE THOSE WHO LIVE IN CITIES SHOULD NOT VOTE. THAT WILL KEEP DEMOCRATS FROM VOTING. 1/5 ACRE OF LAND SHOULD DO THE TRICK.

Detriments = innocent people have their rights infringed upon. Negative global view. Confusion. More tax money spent to enforce policies. Cruel, unfair, and unjust. Violent protests. Actually their are too many to list.

Benefits= those who don't agree with Philips viewpoint get exiled.

Or we could just not let the children of illegal immigration stay in land that isn't theirs. But the 1/5 of an acre of land rule is good.

You keep saying that, and you haven't provided a reason why this is good.

Socialism is bad. Agree or disagree?

For America, yes. For Denmark, no.

Agree. But it is immoral to discriminate. The only reason you want them gone is because they have a viewpoint which opposes yours. That is wrong. The government should not be in a state where one political party maintains complete control and bans others. The US isn't a totalitarian fascist nation. There will be opposing viewpoints. That is what makes democracy great.

Totalitarianism is bad. Agree or disagree?

Agree. But I disagree that this is totalitarianism.

Their VIEW POINT is fine. What's not fine is them voting for it, which directly infringes on my right to live in a free society and own property.

Thankfully, hispanics are trending GOP.

Two years do not make a trend. Bush really wanted the Hispanic vote this year - a smart move. It probably won him NV, NM, and certainly helped in FL.

So the problem is that their viewpoint is different from yours? I'm sorry but that also means your viewpoint is different from theirs. If a free society is the big issue I don't see how thowing out innocent children is helping your cause any. And yes that would be totalitarian. Actually I purposely used a dictionary definition in that statement. The best part of the definition is that little part about trying to ban opposing viewpoints. Sounds pretty familliar doesn't it Philip? If throwing people out of the country who have a particular viewpoint isn't banning that viewpoint what exactly is?

No. They're being thrown out of the country for not being here legally. You asked me why that was important, and I told you why.

Someone voting to steal my liberty is violating my rights. Agree or disagree?

Then why the hell did you bring up socialism

People here illegally are much more likely to be socialist. Which is why it's so vital to keep them from voting.

Someone voting to steal my liberty is violating my rights. Agree or disagree?

Is socialism the reason or is it not the reason you are throwing these "outlaws" out of the country. make up your mind. A simple yes or no answer

Answer my question.

I have to figure out the valididty of this question first. If socialism is the reason it is a valid question. If it is not the reason, it is completely unrelated to the topic. Is socialism the reason or is it not the reason you are throwing these "outlaws" out of the nation.

They're not being thrown out solely for being socialists, but that's one of the reasons.

BRTD is a socialist. Should he be thrown out? He's a threat to my liberty, but no, because he has the right to be here.

Illegal aliens don't have the right to be here. Would I mind if they weren't a threat to my liberty? No, but they are, so they should be thrown out.

It's a combination of the two.

You do know that someone here illegally is also almost guaranteed not to be able to vote?

You seem determined to kick people out who you claim disagree with you.  I wasn't going to respond to that because I was hoping it was a joke, but I find that kind of viewpoint outright disgusting.

So you wouldn't mind if the sons of the sons of people who immigrated illegally here were not socialists but they are, and you disagree with that viewpoint. You disagree with the socialist viewpoint, and because their viewpoint is different from yours, you don't want them to have rights. Interesting.....I asked you that question a few posts back and you said that their viewpoint has nothing to do with it.

The children of illegal immigrants can vote, and they're more likely to be socialist.

It's like this:

Here legally, not a threat to my liberty? Leave alone.
Here illegally, not a threat to my liberty? Leave alone.
Here legally, a threat to my liberty? Leave alone.
Here illegally, a threat to my liberty? Throw out.

I don't give a damn about their viewpoint. If they were just socialists, that'd be fine, but they vote socialist.

You know what I find disgusting? People voting to infringe on the liberties of someone else.

I thought up a similar proposal!  I hope you like it!

Those whose ancestors served in the confederacy during the civil war should not be allowed to vote

StatesRights + other southerners don't take offense to this. Unlike Philip I do not support such prejudiced policies.

Why are Confederates a threat to our liberty, and why don't they have the right to be here?

Their various social views are threats to our liberty:

Legalized drugs, flag burning laws, gay marriage, abortion, ect.

They don't have a right to be here because their parents parent parents parents were treasonous

Now do you see why your idea is stupid

Their gay marriage and abortion views are not a threat to liberty.

Their parents were citizens, and secession is not treason.

Illegal Aliens - note the word 'illegal', as in breaking the law.

If we consider them here illegally, then their children are also here illegally, whether they were born here or not.  We aren't 'penalizing' the children.  The parents are responsible for their children, not the state.   Their child will be with their parent back in their own country. 

I understand the desire of many to come to this country for the opportunities that it affords, but there are currently legal routes for doing so.  Why should those who illegally enter the country and have children be given special privilege over those who try to enter legally?  What you have done is to reward those who have committed a crime by allowing them to stay.

The solution is to make immigration easier, if that is beneficial to the country.  Or issue work Visas, or some equivalent.  Maybe an immigrant farm worker pass that would allow aliens to work at jobs that nobody else will to.  Pay them by the job and you'll be amazed at how hard and fast they work.  I've seem 'illegal' aliens working in Texas and here in Kentucky.  When they work by the job, they end up making well over minimum wage.

social Authoritarian are just as much a threat to our liberty as economic authoritarians. It doesn't matter if their parents are citizens. This is my bill, not yours. Their ancestors violated their allegiance to the united states of america, and betrayed their country. This will not apply to all confederates. Only those that levied war against the U.S


once again a reminder to states rights and other southerners, I am not actually in favor of these kind of bills, because unlike Philip, I have respect for other cultures.

One's another country. One's this country. You can't ban everyone in certain states from voting.

I say yes! Get rid of them.