Talk Elections

I think he might've actually.

Keep in mind even in Utah the Hispanics are mostly Catholic.

Certainly not.  Unless you don't consider Mormons Christian, of course.

Mormons are Christians, so no.

Not by the definition of most Christians, so he might have.

Most Christians don't consider Mormons to be Christians. What's so hard to understand? I can't give you a theological explanation, it is what it is.

Whether other Christians "consider" Mormons to be Christians or not is out of the question. Mormons are Christians. Period. The question was "Did Obama win Christians in Utah?" not "Did Obama win what non-Mormon Christians consider Christians in Utah?"

Obviously what was intended was "Did Obama win non-Mormon Christians in Utah?" I don't think anyone would think that he won Christians if you include Mormons.

Many people would disagree with you that Mormons are Christians, including the OP I would think. Though maybe I am wrong about that.

I think BRTD may have been a good Jesuit or maybe an O.P. in Spain back in the day.

Mormons aren't Christians, end of story. They're a strange lunacy cult that disturbs me greatly.

This is coming from an atheist who lives in an area with many Mormons.

Mormon baptism are not considered valid! Christian denominations accept other denominations' baptism as valid if you wish to convert if they were done in accordance with their standards. If I wanted to become a Catholic, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Methodist or some other type of Lutheran I could without being rebaptized because I already have been. And if I get baptized as an adult (which I probably will, but my church does baptisms only once a year, and it's in August), I could join any other church that does adult baptism without being rebaptized again as well. My church doesn't even consider it a big deal I haven't been baptized as an adult or insist on it happening again, I could still take a role or position in it. I'd only have to be rebaptized in order to be ordained as an associate pastor.

However Mormon baptism are NOT accepted. The other denominations listed above require people baptized as Mormons to be rebaptized to convert. The reverse is also true. Mormons don't baptize babies, but if I got baptized in my church as an adult and wanted to convert to Mormonism (let's assume I get a head injury or something), I would have to be rebaptized. If Mormons are Christian, why is this an issue?


I really can't imagine myself as a Catholic. Simply can't.

If you are excluding Mormonism, then he probably did win it. The LDS percentage in the state almost exactly matches partisan numbers. Republicans have little support outside the LDS in Utah.

I might add that the church is called the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints and accept Jesus Christ as their savior, therefore, they are part of Christianity.

Mormons also reject the Trinity and their churches don't have crosses on them.

Well that was the accepted, authentic form in W. Christendom for a thousand years. You have a rather keen eye for heresy and false churches. You likely could have moved up the ranks, Cardinal.

That's actually rather funny because Catholicism is basically the polar opposite from my tradition of Christianity on most things, (role of hierarchy, emphasis on ritual, style of worship, etc.) And actually I am the "heretic" today, you know my brand of hipster Christianity isn't too popular with the established churches or evangelical leaders.


Orthodox baptisms are accepted as valid in other churches that baptize infants and vice-versa. Unitarians aren't Christian either and don't require baptism. I think some Unitarian churches do if the parents request it but most Christian denominations don't consider those valid because they don't baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (but in the name of the Creator or something like that.)

The CNN exit poll doesn't have numbers for the Christian groups because they are too small, but it does McCain winning 78% of Mormons with 19% for Obama. And that's 75% of voters.

"Other" and "None" make up 11%. They were about 75% Obama nationwide.

So that means that 14% of voters were Christian. 14.25% of voters were Mormons for Obama, and "other" and "none" were probably around 8.25% for Obama. Obama got 34.22% in the state, and got 22.5% from those two groups based on these numbers. That actually means he would've had to have received the vast majority of those voters. Now he probably did a little worse amongst "Other" and "None" than nationally but it's hard to crunch the numbers and not see him winning Christians.

(The only odd thing I see is the numbers are 2% Protestant, 4% Catholic and 8% "Other Christian. I assume that mostly consists of either black churches [obviously not a ton of those in Utah.] or non-denominationals who refuse to associate as Protestant, but it seems weird that these would make up the majority of Christians in Utah.)

That is my point BRTD.  Your own views are historically heretical. However, even with your inclusive church views you still condemn heresy as you see it. Luther sought to reform a church  in need of reform and ended up taking some of the worst elements of it with him. Mormons are different but need not be dismissed out of hand.

Mormons are Christians.

Mormons are Christians, end of story.

But back to the original question in this thread, before it got hijacked.

Did Obama win Christians in Utah?

The answer is since Obama did not win the Mormon vote in Utah, then no, he did not win the Christian vote in Utah. 

Just because Mormons are weird and strange doesn't mean they're not Christians.

If people were excluded based on being " a strange lunacy cult", then you could exclude a lot of Christians worldwide.

I thought this level of sectarianism was for Levantine Arabs :p

Certainly not.  Unless you consider Catholics Christian, of course.

;D

While there are slight differences about which sentences exactly belong in the Bible and in which order, no (other) Christian Church has anything remotely like the Book of Mormon, and its existence is, from a purely theological point of view, a massive, huge, disqualifying heresy. You might almost as well consider Muslims to be Jews.

Culturally, of course, Mormons (more so than the Native American Church, which also references Jesus Christ. As does Islam, of course.) are part of the great American Protestant Christian Tradition. A somewhat divergent part, but clearly a part.

So bottomline. They're Christians, but not. :P

The Book of Mormon also contradicts the Bible, for example take the bit about Jesus and Satan being brothers. This contradicts a lot about Jesus being the only Son of God, for example see this oft-quoted verse:


Then the bit about how God was once a man on another planet and therefore did not create the entire universe...

For a more borderline case you might want to ask if Unity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_Church) is Christian, I'd say they are but I'm sure jmfcst wouldn't.

Who cares?  The Bible contradicts itself.

Doctrinally, Mormons are about as related to Christianity as, say, Muslims or Jews (or, actually, Mormons to Christianity are what Christians are to Judaism). Culturally, and from the point of view of self-identification, of course, they are Christians.  But in terms of what they believe in, the gap with Christianity is striking.

Greek, Russian and other Eastern Orthodox are about as Christian as Catholics. In fact, they are not even considered heretics by the Catholic church (though they, in fact, believe Catholics to be heretical). The most important doctrinal difference between the to is on the nature of the Holy Ghost (the Orthodox believe it to come from the Father, while the Catholics add "and Son"). On this the Eastern Orthodox view, in fact, has better pedigree: that's the original Nicean Creed, which Catholics have modified. Pretty much on all other matters that don't have to do w/ the role of the Bishop of Rome they are indistinguishable.

In any case, theological and historical differences betwenn Eastern (or, even, Oriental) Orthodox and most Protestant churches might be huge, but they pale in comparison between the differences between even most  evangelical churches and the Mormons. On the bulk of what they believe in Orthodox, Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Baptists, etc., etc. are fairly close - while Mormons are almost as distinct from them all as are the Muslims.

This. If we're considering Mormons Christians, should we also consider Muslims Christian because they view Jesus as a Prophet, believe that he had a virgin birth, and believe in his Second Coming?

Furthermore, Mormons:
- don't believe in Apostolic Succession
- view the three personages of the trinity as fully separate personages rather than as three cosubstantial personages in one being
- Mormons believe that God the Father is only one of countless Gods, and that he used to be a man who lived on another planet

Muslims also believe he was never crucified. Mohammed must have spoken to some gnostics.

yeah, early Christianity had a lot of very interesting offshoots.

If you're gonna be a Christian, be an unemotional,somewhat rational,  traditional one (ie Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, mainline Protestant). Don't be one of those "have you found Jesus?" people.

And for God's sake, don't start your own denomination in this day and age.

If Mormons are consider Christians, no, Obama did no win the vote of Christians in Utah. If not, nah but the true Christian crowd isn't as Republican as the Mormons-LDS are in the state.

Mormons are not Christians and no Obama didn't win Christians in Utah.

According to the OP's definition, yes.

That said, I don't believe Mormonism is Christianity, but neither do I think the religion is weird or disturbing. That said, I am a Jew descended from Russian immigrants living in Ohio, and have therefore personally encountered very few Mormons, so this really isn't much of an expert opinion.

Neither do most Protestant churches.

This is why I think that Mormonism is not part of Christianity. Do you believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost? No? Then you are not a Christian. It isn't rocket science.

Non-Trinitarians aren't Christians?

No. The acceptance of the trinity has been a fundamental component of Christianity since the promulgation of the Nicene Creed.

Did he win non-Mormons? Probably.

But Mormons believe in Jeebus, so they're Christian enough for my criteria.

Edit: Nevermind. Just lock this troll thread.

Well, yeah.  That's the Nicene Creed. I've been to a few Unitarian churches and they don't consider themselves Christian.

I don't consider Mormons to be christian so yes I think Obama did win Christians in Utah b/c there are probably some Hispanic Catholics in Utah...

Of course not. He probably lost than by a bigger margin than his actual Utah results.

(And,  Mormons are unquestionably Christians!!!)

Of course he didn't.  I consider Mormons to be Christian; I don't have time to dice you people up into little groups.  Every single one of ya wants to take the axe to my neck and toss my lifeless corpse into the gully.  [/excessive hyperbole]