Talk Elections

General Politics => International General Discussion => Topic started by: danny on October 27, 2011, 07:25:58 AM



Title: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on October 27, 2011, 07:25:58 AM
Since there is one for the UK I thought I'd open one for Israel with this poll (http://www.mako.co.il/news-military/politics/Article-7207a8151414331017.htm) (link in Hebrew):

Likud: 37
Labour: 22
Kadima: 17
Yisrael Beitenu: 15
Shas: 7

Who do you think is most suitable to be a prime minister:
Netanyahu: 41%
Yehimovich: 15%
Livni: 9%
Lieberman: 9%
other/undecided: 26%

This obviously terrible for Livni and Kadima as a lot of people only voted for Kadima in the last election because they were the only viable alternative to Likud. With polls like this there won't be much reason to vote Kadima, especially when Livni isn't really to Yehimovich's right anyway.

It's good news for Labour that is a result of replacing Barak with the much more popular Yehimovich.
And good news for Likud and Bibi who have a commanding lead right now with Kadima's collapse.



Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: MASHED POTATOES. VOTE! on October 27, 2011, 07:45:35 AM
Since I don't know much about Israeli politics, why did Kadima collapsed so badly?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on October 27, 2011, 08:50:55 AM
Since I don't know much about Israeli politics, why did Kadima collapsed so badly?

I don't think they've been an especially effective opposition. There's also a new Labour leader and then there's the return of social issues (as in: issues about the structure of society and social policy) to the political landscape. Kadima doesn't have much to say about that subject. Also, parts of the Israeli electorate are very volatile.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on October 27, 2011, 09:26:25 AM
Since I don't know much about Israeli politics, why did Kadima collapsed so badly?

I don't think they've been an especially effective opposition. There's also a new Labour leader and then there's the return of social issues (as in: issues about the structure of society and social policy) to the political landscape. Kadima doesn't have much to say about that subject. Also, parts of the Israeli electorate are very volatile.

There is that + the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange which was very popular amongst Kadima's voters but Livni opposed while Netanyahu and Yechimovich supported.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Insula Dei on October 27, 2011, 10:22:35 AM
Just when you'd think Labour's had it, eh?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on October 27, 2011, 01:05:38 PM
Different poll from globes: (http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=1000693071&fid=1725)
Likud: 33
Labour: 20
Kadima: 17
Yisrael Beitenu:14
Shas: 10
UTJ: 6
National Union: 4
Hadash: 4
Jewish Home: 3
Meretz: 3
Raam-Taal: 3
Balad: 3

Numbers are slightly different but with the same general trend.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Teddy (IDS Legislator) on October 27, 2011, 01:07:45 PM
Jesus christ where do you find these?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: © tweed on October 27, 2011, 01:10:27 PM
I am cutting a class right now called Israeli Labor Relations.  it's taught by a dude who used to be some sort of Judge in Israel.  now he is 71 and retired and rambles about sh**t.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on October 27, 2011, 02:32:13 PM
2009 results for the purposes of comparison: Kadima 28, Likud 27, YB 15, Labour 13, Shas 11. So, yeah. These numbers are pretty horrific for Kadima.

For further comparison, Likud won 38 seats in 2003, but other than that you have to go back to the 1988 election (when they won 40 seats) to see them do as well, though they did take 32 in 1996. Labour haven't managed more than 20 seats since 1996 (when they won 26 seats. Yeah, yeah. Also in an electoral pact with some smaller parties, whateversky).


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: BugsBunny on November 05, 2011, 12:52:37 AM
Sweet. It looks like right wing parties will keep their parliamentary majority if an election is held today.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: phk on November 05, 2011, 02:11:24 AM
Thank you for doing this danny.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on November 05, 2011, 03:32:35 AM
A poll from Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/1.1556498) about the Iranian issue:

Should Israel attack the Iranian nuclear facilities?
yes: 41%
no: 39%
other/don't know: 20%

subgroups*:
Haredi yes: 50%
religious yes: 43%
Traditionalist yes: 45:
secular yes: 38%  no:42%
Russian yes:  37%  no:53%
Arab yes: 25%  no:54%

Do you think an attack will lead to a regional war?
high chance: 59%
medium chance: 21%
small chance/other/don't know: 20%

Do you trust the decisions made by Bibi and Barak concerning the Iranian situation?
yes: 52%
no: 37%
don't know: 11%

*a few notes about Israeli subgroups in polls:
1) Haredi/religious/Traditionalist/secular refer to the Jewish religious spectrum and does not include Arabs regardless of their religious affiliation.
2)"Religious" is a term that refers to a specific type of dress and not to all people who are religious and is separate from "haredi"
3) "Russians" refers to immigrants from all of the former USSR and not merely to modern day Russia, people in this group can be part of any of the religious grouping but are usually secular.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on November 05, 2011, 11:02:00 PM
To what extent has Barak's departure affected Labor's numbers? For that matter, how is his outfit polling? I don't see it in the poll data.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on November 05, 2011, 11:09:44 PM

Think that might mean that he's polling less than the margin of error.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on November 05, 2011, 11:15:39 PM

Think that might mean that he's polling less than the margin of error.

Yeah, that's what I figured. I'm not sure what type of voter his party appeals to.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on November 06, 2011, 07:12:29 AM

Think that might mean that he's polling less than the margin of error.

The margin of error on almost all Israeli polls is 4.5% so any party with 3-4 is within that.  Since Baraks party isn't listed I'm assuming it means he simply isn't passing the minimum 2%.
The effect on labours numbers has been positive since Baraks unpopularity caused labour's voters to look elsewhere (mostly Kadima) who are now coming back, with the popular shelly.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: King on November 06, 2011, 10:55:30 AM
42% of Israel supports an act that 81% believe will result in all out war in the region?

Such a peaceful nation we must pray for.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on November 06, 2011, 01:08:35 PM
42% of Israel supports an act that 81% believe will result in all out war in the region?

Such a peaceful nation we must pray for.

But if you think that not doing this action will still lead to war, just one where the other side has nuclear weapons...


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Jacobtm on November 06, 2011, 02:39:20 PM
Since I don't know much about Israeli politics, why did Kadima collapsed so badly?

Sharon died.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Nhoj on November 06, 2011, 02:58:05 PM
Since I don't know much about Israeli politics, why did Kadima collapsed so badly?

Sharon died.
Well technically hes still "alive".


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on November 06, 2011, 05:02:00 PM
Since I don't know much about Israeli politics, why did Kadima collapsed so badly?

Sharon died.
Well technically hes still "alive".

And, more importantly, Sharon was never the head of Kadima during an election so he certainly can't be the reason for the recent collapse. This has to do with Livni's bad leadership and some good political moves from her opponents.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Teddy (IDS Legislator) on November 06, 2011, 09:52:57 PM
If my numbers are right, poll averaging, things look like this:

35   -   Likud
21   -   Labour
17   -   Kadima
15   -   Yisrael B.
9   -   Shas
5   -   U.T.J.
3   -   Nat Union
3   -   Hadash
3   -   Jew. Home
3   -   Meretz
3   -   Raam-Taal
3   -   Balad


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on November 07, 2011, 01:14:19 PM
If my numbers are right, poll averaging, things look like this:

35   -   Likud
21   -   Labour
17   -   Kadima
15   -   Yisrael B.
9   -   Shas
5   -   U.T.J.
3   -   Nat Union
3   -   Hadash
3   -   Jew. Home
3   -   Meretz
3   -   Raam-Taal
3   -   Balad


I only only found data for the first 5 parties in the first poll so unless you're basing these numbers on a poll not listed here the small parties numbers should be identical to the second one.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Peter the Lefty on November 13, 2011, 04:11:16 PM
So the right is gaining ground, but Labor is strengthening mostly due to a Kadima collapse, and Meretz appears to be stuck where it is.  Interesting.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: The Mikado on November 13, 2011, 04:32:58 PM
Labor's attempt at a Lazarus act is slightly impressive. 


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on December 01, 2011, 04:31:34 PM
New poll from Haaretz:
Likud 29
Labour 19
Kadima 17
Yisrael Beitenu 17
Shas 9
National Union/Jewish Home 7
United Torah Judaism 6
Meretz 6
Hadash 5

Right total: 68
Others: 52

Are you pleased with the way Netanyahu is functioning as prime minister?
yes 49
no 41

Edit: link. (http://www.latma.co.il/Image/large/5642-1.jpg)


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: ag on December 01, 2011, 05:34:24 PM
Hadash at 5? Wow!


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on December 01, 2011, 05:46:59 PM

They already have 4 and 1 mandate is easily within the margin of error (4.5%), so I'm not sure what's so exciting.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: ag on December 01, 2011, 05:49:36 PM

They already have 4 and 1 mandate is easily within the margin of error (4.5%), so I'm not sure what's so exciting.

Of course, you a right. But that just shows how pessimistic I am about anything that might qualify as good news coming from that country :)))


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Teddy (IDS Legislator) on December 01, 2011, 08:40:10 PM
New poll from Haaretz:
Likud 29
Labour 19
Kadima 17
Yisrael Beitenu 17
Shas 9
National Union/Jewish Home 7
United Torah Judaism 6
Meretz 6
Hadash 5

Right total: 68
Others: 52

Are you pleased with the way Netanyahu is functioning as prime minister?
yes 49
no 41

Edit: link. (http://www.latma.co.il/Image/large/5642-1.jpg)
So if I understand this - and considering my Hebrew is limited to knowing the name of a single letter I think is cool looking, maybe I don't - but Labour is down from the last poll?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on December 02, 2011, 02:01:02 AM
New poll from Haaretz:
Likud 29
Labour 19
Kadima 17
Yisrael Beitenu 17
Shas 9
National Union/Jewish Home 7
United Torah Judaism 6
Meretz 6
Hadash 5

Right total: 68
Others: 52

Are you pleased with the way Netanyahu is functioning as prime minister?
yes 49
no 41

Edit: link. (http://www.latma.co.il/Image/large/5642-1.jpg)
So if I understand this - and considering my Hebrew is limited to knowing the name of a single letter I think is cool looking, maybe I don't - but Labour is down from the last poll?

You're right, the last poll was conducted after the Labour primaries which caused a bounce for Labour which has somewhat faded.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on December 02, 2011, 08:03:40 AM
What exactly does it mean to have an opinion of a country ?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on December 10, 2011, 02:28:52 AM
another poll: (http://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1000702840&fid=3165)

Likud: 33
Kadima: 20
Labour: 18
Yisrael Beitenu: 13
Shas: 10
United Torah Judaism: 6
National Union: 4
Hadash: 4
Raam-Taal: 3
Balad: 3
Jewish Home: 3
Meretz: 3

Blocs:
Right-religious: 69
Others: 51


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on December 24, 2011, 04:16:27 AM
phk asked for the religiosity of Israel so here is the results of the  2009 social survey (http://www.cbs.gov.il/publications11/seker_hevrati09/pdf/t13.pdf) (amongst 20 years and over):

amongst Jews:
Secular: 41.4%
Traditionalist ("masorti"): 38.5%
Religious: 11.7%
Haredi: 8.2%

Non-Jews:
not religious: 20.6%
not very religious: 27.1%
religious: 44.3%
very religious: 7.9%


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on December 24, 2011, 02:16:03 PM
Is there any way to evaluate those numbers in terms of the American Reform/Conservative/Orthodox divide?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Teddy (IDS Legislator) on December 24, 2011, 02:36:40 PM
Reform would be "secular" I'd guess, Conservative would be "masorti" and "Orthodox" would be the other two.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Teddy (IDS Legislator) on December 24, 2011, 02:40:56 PM
Averaging the above polls:

Likud - 31
Kadima - 18.5
Labour - 18.5
Yisrael B - 15
Shas - 9.5
U Torah J - 6
N Union - 5.5
Meretz - 4.5
Hadash - 4.5


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on December 24, 2011, 04:34:36 PM
Is there any way to evaluate those numbers in terms of the American Reform/Conservative/Orthodox divide?
No, Conservative and Reform Judaism combined are maybe 1% of the population.

Haredi is the same as what would be called ultra orthodox in America (black hats).
Religious is all the the orthodox in America except for the Ultra orthodox.
Masorti tend to keep some of the mitzvot and go occasionally to synagogue, but when they go it's to an orthodox one.
Secular are of course the least likely to keep to traditions but even they, if they would go to a synagogue it would most likely be an orthodox one, and when they think of what "real Judaism" is they would think of orthodox, even if they choose not to follow it.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Teddy (IDS Legislator) on December 24, 2011, 04:48:25 PM
how about you if I can ask?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on December 24, 2011, 04:59:56 PM
I'm an atheist, meaning secular under normal Israeli definitions.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Teddy (IDS Legislator) on December 24, 2011, 05:09:41 PM
:o


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on December 24, 2011, 05:38:58 PM

Why the surprise?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Teddy (IDS Legislator) on December 24, 2011, 05:50:15 PM
Stereotype


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on December 24, 2011, 06:14:26 PM

What kind of stereotype? Israel isn't that religious a country, and my social score and the fact that I post on the sabbath would be hints that I'm not very religious.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on December 30, 2011, 05:06:23 AM
New poll from Globes: (http://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1000711030&ref=sport5)

Likud: 31
Kadima: 19
Labour: 18
Yisrael Beitenu: 14
Shas: 11
UTJ: 6
National Union: 4
Meretz: 4
Hadash: 4
Jewish Home: 3
UAL-TAAL: 3
Balad: 3

And I have added the averaging of nickjbor to the first post.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Joe Republic on December 30, 2011, 05:11:44 AM
... Those numbers add up to 120%.  ???


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on December 30, 2011, 05:28:34 AM

Those are not percentages, they are seats in the Knesset, of which there are indeed 120.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Joe Republic on December 30, 2011, 05:34:30 AM
Ah ha.  :)


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on December 30, 2011, 05:43:23 AM
And here is a poll (http://www.news-israel.net/Article.asp?Code=29168) which added the hypothetical parties of Yair Lapid (son of Tomi Lapid, former head of Shinui) and Aryeh Deri (former head of Shas):

Likud: 24
Yair Lapid: 15
Labour: 15
Yisrael Beitenu: 14
Kadima: 10
Aryeh Deri: 7
UTJ: 6
Shas: 5
Meretz: 5
National Union: 4
Jewish Home: 4
"Arabs" (that is how they wrote it): 11


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Teddy (IDS Legislator) on December 30, 2011, 08:33:44 AM
Great, now all you need to do is break Likud in half again and no party would top 15 :P


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Vosem on December 30, 2011, 09:44:44 AM

"Arabs" (that is how they wrote it): 11
For the purposes of averaging (I'm assuming by Arabs, they mean Hadash, Ta'al, and Balad), let's count that as 4 Hadash, 4 UAL-Ta'al, and 3 Balad, which is the most realistic breakdown of 11 Arab seats.

And assuming Aryeh Deri does return to politics, wouldn't he seek the leadership of Shas instead of making his own party? Seems to make more sense that way. Same with Lapid seeking Kadima's leadership -- Livni doesn't seem to be the most popular of leaders. Of course, I'm probably missing something significant from my vantage point on Lake Erie :)


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on December 30, 2011, 09:52:48 AM

"Arabs" (that is how they wrote it): 11
For the purposes of averaging (I'm assuming by Arabs, they mean Hadash, Ta'al, and Balad), let's count that as 4 Hadash, 4 UAL-Ta'al, and 3 Balad, which is the most realistic breakdown of 11 Arab seats.

Since the poll includes purely hypothetical parties that have yet to be founded (if they ever will), I don't think this poll should be included in any averaging anyway.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Vosem on December 30, 2011, 09:59:16 AM

"Arabs" (that is how they wrote it): 11
For the purposes of averaging (I'm assuming by Arabs, they mean Hadash, Ta'al, and Balad), let's count that as 4 Hadash, 4 UAL-Ta'al, and 3 Balad, which is the most realistic breakdown of 11 Arab seats.

Since the poll includes purely hypothetical parties that have yet to be founded (if they ever will), I don't this poll should be included in any averaging anyway.

D'oh! But I do still have a question...
And assuming Aryeh Deri does return to politics, wouldn't he seek the leadership of Shas instead of making his own party? Seems to make more sense that way. Same with Lapid seeking Kadima's leadership -- Livni doesn't seem to be the most popular of leaders. Of course, I'm probably missing something significant from my vantage point on Lake Erie :)


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on December 30, 2011, 10:31:55 AM

And assuming Aryeh Deri does return to politics, wouldn't he seek the leadership of Shas instead of making his own party? Seems to make more sense that way. Same with Lapid seeking Kadima's leadership -- Livni doesn't seem to be the most popular of leaders. Of course, I'm probably missing something significant from my vantage point on Lake Erie :)

The thing about Shas is that there are no primaries, It's up to Ovadia Yosef, and as far as I know, he still supports Yishai. and if Deri knows that he can't be the leader of shas than it makes sense to bypass it and start his own party.

As for Lapid, It's possible, but I don't know if he has any interest in Kadima, he may want to recreate Shinui instead, and I don't think Livni/Mofaz (whom ever wins the primary) will want to give up their spot. Of course, right now he is a news anchor so he can't say what he wants to do.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Dereich on December 31, 2011, 12:01:52 PM
New poll from Globes: (http://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1000711030&ref=sport5)

Likud: 31
Kadima: 19
Labour: 18
Yisrael Beitenu: 14
Shas: 11
UTJ: 6
National Union: 4
Meretz: 4
Hadash: 4
Jewish Home: 3
UAL-TAAL: 3
Balad: 3

And I have added the averaging of nickjbor to the first post.

What's with Kadima reclaiming the 2nd place?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Teddy (IDS Legislator) on December 31, 2011, 01:13:06 PM
Margin of Error?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on December 31, 2011, 01:20:27 PM
New poll from Globes: (http://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1000711030&ref=sport5)

Likud: 31
Kadima: 19
Labour: 18
Yisrael Beitenu: 14
Shas: 11
UTJ: 6
National Union: 4
Meretz: 4
Hadash: 4
Jewish Home: 3
UAL-TAAL: 3
Balad: 3

And I have added the averaging of nickjbor to the first post.

What's with Kadima reclaiming the 2nd place?

I assume it has to do with the post primary bounce that has now somewhat faded.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 05, 2012, 11:29:01 AM
New poll (http://www.kikarhashabat.co.il/%D7%A1%D7%A7%D7%A8-%D7%97%D7%93%D7%A9-%D7%99%D7%90%D7%99%D7%A8-%D7%9C%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%93-%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%91%D7%9C-20-%D7%9E%D7%A0%D7%93%D7%98.html) conducted on 3/1/12:
Likud: 38
Yisrael Beitenu: 16
Kadima: 15
Labour: 13
Shas: 8
UTJ: 7
Meretz: 6
National Union: 4
Jewish Home: 3
"Arabs":10

Right-Religious:76
Others: 44

This is the most right friendly poll I have seen lately.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 05, 2012, 12:05:39 PM
But the same poll looks quite different with Lapid and Deri:
Likud: 25
Lapid: 20
Deri: 12
Yisrael Beitenu: 12
Kadima: 9
Labour: 9
Shas: 6
UTJ: 5
Meretz: 5
Jewish Home: 4
National Union: 3
"Arabs": 10


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 08, 2012, 09:12:31 AM
A lot less hypothetical now (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4172793,00.html), Lapid has resigned his journalist job, presumably to enter politics.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Teddy (IDS Legislator) on January 08, 2012, 10:10:43 AM
One step closer to no party winning more than 10 seats! :D


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 09, 2012, 02:21:19 PM
Polls seem to be all over the place right now.

Here (http://news.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=857779) is another one:

Likud: 30
Lapid: 16
Kadima: 14
Yisrael Beitenu: 14
Labour: 12
Shas: 9
National Union + Jewish home: 6
UTJ: 5
Meretz:4
"Arab parties": 10
Independence: 0 (though I doubt they run as an independent party)


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on January 09, 2012, 02:34:26 PM
Maybe they use dice?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: republicanism on January 10, 2012, 12:04:46 AM

Never heard of Lapid, wiki doesn't tell me anything either. What kind of party is this going to be?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: RodPresident on January 10, 2012, 07:24:29 AM
He's host of a very popular Israel's talk show and a sucessful writer. His father Tomy Lapid (died in 2008) led liberal-secularist Shinui into a 3rd place in 2003 elections, after a Labour weak showing. He have a good appeal among liberal and urban people that would go to Yachimovich and can attract centrist Kadimists too. Aryeh Deri is a former Shas leader who was convicted for receiving bribery, but he retains a great amount of support. Noah Shalit (Gilad's father) plans to run in Labour list.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 10, 2012, 01:29:58 PM
Lapid's decision has caused a flood of polls.
Here (http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4173573,00.html) is another:

Kadima headed by Livni


Likud: 28
Yisrael Beitenu: 15
Kadima: 13
Labour: 13
Lapid: 11
Shas: 6
UTJ: 6
Deri: 5
Meretz: 4
Jewish Home: 4
National Union: 2
Greens: 2
Arab Parties: 11

Kadima headed by Mofaz

Likud 28
Yisrael Beitenu: 16
Lapid: 14
Labour: 14
Kadima: 8
Shas: 6
Deri: 5
Meretz: 4

Kadima headed by Lapid

Kadima: 29
Likud: 27
Yisrael Beitenu: 15
Labour: 13


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on January 10, 2012, 01:49:04 PM
Mofaz is not very popular then?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 10, 2012, 02:09:27 PM
Not with the general public, but much more so with Kadima primary voters, so there is a strong possibility that he will head Kadima anyway.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 10, 2012, 02:18:21 PM
And another one (http://www.mako.co.il/news-military/politics/Article-40f42e71496c431017.htm):

Likud: 27
Labour: 18
Kadima: 15
Yisrael Beitenu: 14
Lapid: 12

Who do you think is more suitable to be prime minister:

Bibi: 55%
Livni: 23.5%

Bibi: 57.7%
Lapid: 19.7%

Bibi: 60.5%
Mofaz: 9.6% (lol)


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Teddy (IDS Legislator) on January 10, 2012, 07:36:47 PM
Averaging
Likud - 28
Labour - 14
Y Beit - 14
Kadima - 14
Lapid - 13


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 11, 2012, 08:15:29 AM
New poll: (http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/9/1893145)

Likud: 31
Lapid: 20
Yisrael Beitenu: 12
Labour: 11
Shas: 9
Kadima: 8
Jewish Home: 6
UTJ: 5
Meretz: 4
National Union: 3
Arab parties: 11


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 11, 2012, 09:46:52 AM
From the above poll:

Do you support raising the election threshold to 5%?

yes 65%
no 22%
no opinion 13%


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Teddy (IDS Legislator) on January 11, 2012, 10:10:50 AM
What would 5% be in terms of seats? 6? So parties with less would lose.

"Oddly" all Arab parties would lose unless they ran a single united list.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 11, 2012, 10:33:09 AM
What would 5% be in terms of seats? 6? So parties with less would lose.

"Oddly" all Arab parties would lose unless they ran a single united list.

You're right, but just because most people support it doesn't mean it's happening any time soon. I haven't heard of any politician trying to seriously pass something like this.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Teddy (IDS Legislator) on January 11, 2012, 12:00:24 PM
Frankly, if I ran the place, I'd create 20 electoral districts, each of which would elect a single member via FPTP, and be unassociated with the 100 proportional members. The idea being that it would bolster any parties that can win over a national audience.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: republicanism on January 11, 2012, 12:50:29 PM
Frankly, if I ran the place, I'd create 20 electoral districts, each of which would elect a single member via FPTP, and be unassociated with the 100 proportional members. The idea being that it would bolster any parties that can win over a national audience.

20 FPTP and 100 national PR? That wouldn't change the Israeli party system at all.

Do 60/60 or something, and it would make a difference.

Or, well, just a treshold. And there are ways to ensure Arab representation even if non of their list gets over 5%.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Teddy (IDS Legislator) on January 11, 2012, 01:38:17 PM
60 60 would change the Israeli party system, and why I avoid it.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: republicanism on January 11, 2012, 02:15:08 PM
60 60 would change the Israeli party system, and why I avoid it.

Then why would you do any electoral reform at all?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Teddy (IDS Legislator) on January 11, 2012, 02:51:36 PM
Stabilize Governments.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on January 11, 2012, 07:04:23 PM
Some form of STV would be the best way to provide for relative stability while ensuring that the minority gets its voice heard. STV would be impossible with the current Israeli voting system, of course.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: dead0man on January 18, 2012, 06:22:49 AM
I heard Noam Shalit, dad to Gilad Shalit, might run for a place on the Labor list for the Knesset.  The leader of the Labor party said that it was great to have him, we just hope that 1027 people won't go over to the other side.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 19, 2012, 08:32:59 AM
New poll (http://www.news1.co.il/RedirectToFile.aspx?FileID=7859) conducted yesterday (18/1/12):

Kadima headed by Livni:

Likud: 26
Yisrael Beitenu: 17
Labour: 14
Kadima: 13
Lapid: 7
Shas: 7
UTJ: 6
National Union: 5
Jewish Home: 4
Raam-Taal: 4
Hadash: 4
Balad: 3
Deri: 3
Meretz: 3
Independence: 2
"new party headed by Rabbi Haim Amsalem": 2*

Kadima headed by Mofaz:

Likud: 28
Yisrael Beitenu: 17
Labour: 15
Kadima: 9
Lapid: 8
Shas: 7
UTJ: 6
National Union: 5
Jewish Home: 4
Raam-Taal: 4
Hadash: 4
Balad: 3
Deri: 3
Meretz: 3
Independence: 2
"new party headed by Rabbi Haim Amsalem": 2*

*Haim Amsalem is a current knesset member who was elected in the last elections as part of shas, but took views that are much more religiously moderate than his party. he ended up leaving Shas to found his own party which will be right wing on the left right axis but more religiously moderate than Shas.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: republicanism on January 19, 2012, 12:36:26 PM

No offense my friend, but your party system is a mess.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 19, 2012, 06:18:29 PM
Lapid has closed the door on the possibility of his joining Kadima by posting on Facebook that Kadima is a party of cynical politicians that no one knows what they believe in that were kicked out of their former parties, and there is no chance that he will join them.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Teddy (IDS Legislator) on January 19, 2012, 06:36:02 PM
This is why I say that 20 FPTP seats would do wonders. Imagine this:


Likud   -   21   -   15   -   36
Y.Beit   -   14   -      -   14
Lab   -   11   -      -   11
Kad   -   11   -   2   -   13
Lapid   -   6   -      -   6
Shas   -   6   -   3   -   9
UTJ   -   5   -      -   5
NatU   -   4   -      -   4
JewH   -   3   -      -   3
Ra-Ta   -   3   -      -   3
Had   -   3   -      -   3
Bal   -   3   -      -   3
Deri   -   3   -      -   3
Meretz   -   3   -      -   3
Indp   -   2   -      -   2
RabHai   -   2   -      -   2


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 19, 2012, 06:47:56 PM
This is why I say that 20 FPTP seats would do wonders. Imagine this:


Likud   -   21   -   15   -   36
Y.Beit   -   14   -      -   14
Lab   -   11   -      -   11
Kad   -   11   -   2   -   13
Lapid   -   6   -      -   6
Shas   -   6   -   3   -   9
UTJ   -   5   -      -   5
NatU   -   4   -      -   4
JewH   -   3   -      -   3
Ra-Ta   -   3   -      -   3
Had   -   3   -      -   3
Bal   -   3   -      -   3
Deri   -   3   -      -   3
Meretz   -   3   -      -   3
Indp   -   2   -      -   2
RabHai   -   2   -      -   2


I seriously doubt Likud take 15 of 20 FPTP seats, unless they gerrymander very smartly for themselves I don't think they will take more than half the seats, so it woudn't make that much of a difference.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Teddy (IDS Legislator) on January 19, 2012, 07:37:31 PM
Then who would win? Your own maps show their strength?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 20, 2012, 06:52:52 AM
Then who would win? Your own maps show their strength?
UTJ would have 1 or 2 depending on the districts and whether non-haredi would coalesce around a single candidate the way they do in local Jerusalem elections (which is more of a problem to do than in national elections).
2-3 Arab seats where the fight will be between the Arab parties.
Probably another 3 marginal Likud-Yisrael Beitenu seats, 1 in the north and s in the south.
and then a bunch of seats for whomever comes out on top amongst the left-centre parties in the centre and possibly another one based in Haifa. probably another 3-6 seats.
The rest would go to Likud.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 27, 2012, 09:50:08 PM
New poll: (http://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1000719386)

Likud: 30
Labour: 15
Yisrael Beitenu: 14
Kadima: 13
Lapid: 11
Shas: 10
UTJ: 6
National Union: 5
Hadash: 4
Raam Taal: 3
Balad: 3
Jewish Home: 3
Meretz: 3


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Teddy (IDS Legislator) on January 28, 2012, 02:23:57 AM
With Likud so far out ahead, would it be difficult for anyone else, even if they came to an agreement, to shove them out of a government in the event that the election resulted in exactly this?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 28, 2012, 04:50:59 AM
If the results were like this poll, there would be no doubt that Likud would head the next government. In theory, a group of smaller parties could join together and put themselves ahead. But they would need to have a majority, and only Likud would be able to get this in this scenario, since right wing parties have a majority.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on February 19, 2012, 06:30:22 AM
New poll: (http://www.srugim.co.il/29029-%D7%A1%D7%A7%D7%A8-%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%93-%D7%9E%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%90-%D7%9C39-%D7%99%D7%90%D7%99%D7%A8-%D7%9C%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%93-%D7%9E%D7%AA%D7%A8%D7%A1%D7%A7-6-%D7%9E%D7%A0%D7%93)

Likud: 39
Yisrael Beitenu: 13
Kadima: 12
Labour: 12
Shas: 9
Lapid: 6
UTJ: 5
National Union: 5
Jewish Home: 5
Meretz: 4
Arab parties: 10


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Dereich on February 20, 2012, 04:25:25 AM
New poll: (http://www.srugim.co.il/29029-%D7%A1%D7%A7%D7%A8-%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%93-%D7%9E%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%90-%D7%9C39-%D7%99%D7%90%D7%99%D7%A8-%D7%9C%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%93-%D7%9E%D7%AA%D7%A8%D7%A1%D7%A7-6-%D7%9E%D7%A0%D7%93)

Likud: 39
Yisrael Beitenu: 13
Kadima: 12
Labour: 12
Shas: 9
Lapid: 6
UTJ: 5
National Union: 5
Jewish Home: 5
Meretz: 4
Arab parties: 10

Any particular reason for the Likud jump?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on February 20, 2012, 02:42:33 PM
New poll: (http://www.srugim.co.il/29029-%D7%A1%D7%A7%D7%A8-%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%93-%D7%9E%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%90-%D7%9C39-%D7%99%D7%90%D7%99%D7%A8-%D7%9C%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%93-%D7%9E%D7%AA%D7%A8%D7%A1%D7%A7-6-%D7%9E%D7%A0%D7%93)

Likud: 39
Yisrael Beitenu: 13
Kadima: 12
Labour: 12
Shas: 9
Lapid: 6
UTJ: 5
National Union: 5
Jewish Home: 5
Meretz: 4
Arab parties: 10

Any particular reason for the Likud jump?

I think it's mostly because of the weakness of the opposition. Kadima is busy with an internal primary, and isn't focused on attacking the Likud. And the main news Lapid has made since entering politics is about how he managed to get himself into doctorate studies despite never finishing high school, or getting any degree of any kind.

Other than that, Israel is doing pretty well in general. Terrorism is relatively low, unemployment is at a 30 year low and GDP growth in 2011 was 4.8%, Though this would be true a month ago as well.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: J. J. on February 20, 2012, 02:57:19 PM
Likud could be seen as being stronger on Iran.  They could be seen as fighting Iran, but not wanting to gobble up the Middle East.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on March 09, 2012, 05:32:08 AM
New poll from "Haaretz": (http://www.haaretz.co.il/magazine/1.1659921)

Kadima headed by Livni:

Likud: 37
Yisrael Beitenu: 16
Labour: 14
Kadima: 10
Shas: 9
Lapid: 7
UTJ: 7
National Union-Jewish Home: 5
Meretz: 5
Hadash: 5
UAL-TAAL: 3
Balad: 2

Kadima headed by Mofaz:

Likud: 35
Yisrael Beitenu: 15
Labour: 14
Kadima: 12
Shas: 9
Lapid: 8
UTJ: 7
National Union-Jewish Home: 5
Meretz: 5
Hadash: 5
UAL-TAAL: 3
Balad: 2

Favourability

Netanyahu:
favourable: 53%
unfavourable: 40%

Lieberman:
favourable: 42%
unfavourable: 50%

Barak:
favourable: 46%
unfavourable: 47%

Yuval Shteinitz (minister of finance, which is a usually unpopular position):
favourable: 33%
unfavourable: 51%

Livni:
favourable: 31%
unfavourable: 58%

Rivlin (speaker of the Knesset):
favourable: 66%
unfavourable: 17%

Peres:
favourable: 81%
unfavourable: 13%


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on March 23, 2012, 10:33:46 AM
New poll from Yediot Ahronot (not on their website so no link):

Kadima headed by Livni:

Likud: 29
Kadima:15
Lapid: 13
Labour: 13
Yisrael Beitenu: 12
Shas: 9
UTJ:6
Meretz: 4
National Union: 3
Jewish Home: 3
Deri: 2
Independence: 0
Arab Parties: 11

Kadima headed by Mofaz:

Likud: 29
Kadima:12
Lapid: 14
Labour: 13
Yisrael Beitenu: 14
Shas: 8
UTJ:6
Meretz: 5
National Union: 3
Jewish Home: 3
Deri: 2
Independence: 0
Arab Parties: 11


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on March 23, 2012, 10:47:03 AM
Danny- It is good to see some one from Israel on here. Can you please tell us which of the parties are more right-wing, left-wing, or centrist? I know Likud is right, Kadima- center, and Labor- left but can you expand on the other parties in the poll?
clarence


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on March 23, 2012, 11:18:38 AM
Danny- It is good to see some one from Israel on here. Can you please tell us which of the parties are more right-wing, left-wing, or centrist? I know Likud is right, Kadima- center, and Labor- left but can you expand on the other parties in the poll?
clarence
Keep in mind that the left/right axis in Israel is about Hawkishness and Dovishness and not economics.

Lapid- centre, presumably very secular like his father.

Yisrael beitenu- right-wing, secular, mostly immigrant party (from the former USSR).

Shas,United Torah Judaism(UTJ),National Union, Jewish Home- all 4 are right wing religious parties, here is a link (https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=145133.msg3116588#msg3116588) with an explanation on the differences between them.

Meretz- far left-wing secularist

Deri- religious sephardi but not rot really right-wing.

Arab parties:

United Arab List- Islamist.

Balad- Pan Arabist and close to the Syrian Baathist party.

Hadash- Communist.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on March 23, 2012, 11:27:13 AM
It is a testament to your nations democracy that an Islamist and a Baathist party are allowed to flourish...

Thank you for your explanation


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: I'm JewCon in name only. on March 25, 2012, 01:11:56 AM
Danny, which of the parties do you support in Israel.


I'm Jewish, and many of my relatives live in Israel (Haifa region  and Tel Aviv metro mostly.)

My Israeli Relatives are mainly Likud supporters, with a few Labour here, and there.

Here in the States, me and my father strongly back Likud. My Dad also likes Yisrael Beitenu, unlike me. However, I do like Danny Avalon a lot from Yisrael Beitenu.

Of course, I love Netanyahu :)


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on March 25, 2012, 06:34:05 AM
I'm not a member of any party, but in the last election I voted for Likud.

I don't really like Netanyahu, I'm usually to his right, and I think there are much better people in Likud than him but he's still better than anyone from Kadima and Labour, although I could possibly vote for Yisrael Beitenu.

BTW, why would you like Ayalon but not his party? Other than his good English there isn't much difference between himself and the rest of the party.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: I'm JewCon in name only. on March 25, 2012, 02:24:43 PM
I'm not a member of any party, but in the last election I voted for Likud.

I don't really like Netanyahu, I'm usually to his right, and I think there are much better people in Likud than him but he's still better than anyone from Kadima and Labour, although I could possibly vote for Yisrael Beitenu.

BTW, why would you like Ayalon but not his party? Other than his good English there isn't much difference between himself and the rest of the party.

Well, I mainly have an issue with Lieberman and the Yisrael Official (Sofa Landver) who released those Anti-American Jew ad's. I feel as if Lieberman is corrupt, and really just to extreme for me on a lot of issues. But, mainly it's that Ad campaign that pissed me off.

But,  my opinions aside, I'm happy that Likud and Yisrael Beitenu made the coalition back in 2009 :P



Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on March 25, 2012, 04:10:27 PM
I'm not a member of any party, but in the last election I voted for Likud.

I don't really like Netanyahu, I'm usually to his right, and I think there are much better people in Likud than him but he's still better than anyone from Kadima and Labour, although I could possibly vote for Yisrael Beitenu.

BTW, why would you like Ayalon but not his party? Other than his good English there isn't much difference between himself and the rest of the party.

Well, I mainly have an issue with Lieberman and the Yisrael Official (Sofa Landver) who released those Anti-American Jew ad's. I feel as if Lieberman is corrupt, and really just to extreme for me on a lot of issues. But, mainly it's that Ad campaign that pissed me off.

But,  my opinions aside, I'm happy that Likud and Yisrael Beitenu made the coalition back in 2009 :P



That ad really wasn't meant as anti-American Jew, it was supposed to encourage Jews to make Aliyah. And the rumors about Liebermans corruption never seem to amount to much.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Frodo on March 25, 2012, 04:30:57 PM
Wouldn't a Likud-only government actually be good news for advancing the peace process with the Palestinians as they would have less need to appease the settler bloc as represented by the third parties they are currently in office with? 


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on March 25, 2012, 04:51:14 PM
Wouldn't a Likud-only government actually be good news for advancing the peace process with the Palestinians as they would have less need to appease the settler bloc as represented by the third parties they are currently in office with? 

The coalition parties are not more supportive of the settlers than Likud is in general other than the irrelevant Jewish Home. If Likud formed a government by itself (realistically impossible) than there would be many more Likud members to oppose threats to the settlements. if Netanyahu would want to harm the settlements he would probably need to add parties to Likud's left to the coalition.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on March 28, 2012, 02:46:59 PM
new poll (http://news.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=886931) done following the Kadima primaries: (https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=149301.0)

Likud: 32
Labour: 15
Kadima: 15
Yisrael Beitenu: 14
Lapid: 9
Shas: 9
UTJ: 5
Jewish Home-National Union: 5
Meretz: 5
Independence: 0
Arab Parties: 11


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on March 29, 2012, 11:18:14 AM
And one from Yediot:

Likud: 29
Labour: 18
Yisrael Beitenu: 13
Kadima: 12
Lapid: 12
Shas: 8
UTJ: 6
National Union: 4
Meretz: 3
Jewish Home: 2
Deri: 2
Independence: 0
Arab parties: 11

How did Mofaz's election affect your chance of voting for Kadima?
no change: 63%
lowered them: 15%
raised them: 13%

Who is more suitable to be prime minister?
Netanyahu: 54%
Mofaz: 16%


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on March 30, 2012, 11:32:03 AM
And now channel 2: (http://www.mako.co.il/news-military/politics/Article-80bf774bf4f5631018.htm&sCh=31750a2610f26110&pId=2082585621)
Likud: 32
Labour: 16
Yisrael Beitenu: 14
Lapid: 12
Kadima: 10
Shas: 7
National Union: 6
UTJ: 5
Meretz: 5
Hadash: 4
Jewish Home: 3
Balad: 3
Raam-Taal: 3
Independence: 0

Which of these two is more suitable to be prime minister?
Netanyahu: 52%
Mofaz: 12%

Is Kadima an alternative to Likud as a ruling party?
yes: 24%
no: 64%


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: ag on March 30, 2012, 06:13:04 PM
So, all these polls seem to show Labor to be the likely next biggest opposition party, not Kadima, so the Mofaz vs. Netaniyahu question becomes irrelevant.

Also, all these polls are really good for Shas - unless Kadima is wooed back into a rightwing government, Shas is the one religious party that's going to be indispensible to form it. I think, I can forecast certain budgetary appropriations :)))


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on March 31, 2012, 03:41:33 AM
Considering Mofaz wanted to enter the current coalition I don't think there will be much trouble for Kadima to enter the next one. Kadima should also be fine with being in coalition with Shas so a Likud+Kadima+Yisrael Beitenu+Shas+UTJ coalition is quite likely. It's also possible to replace Shas and UTJ with Lapid but I don't trust Israeli politicians with excluding the haredim.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on March 31, 2012, 04:30:57 PM
Another from Globes: (http://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1000737736)
Likud: 29
Yisrael Beitenu: 16
Kadima: 15
Labour: 12
Lapid: 9
Shas: 9
UTJ: 6
National Union: 4
Meretz:4
Jewish Home:3
Arab parties: 11


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: LastVoter on April 01, 2012, 03:02:18 PM
Has labour ever won a government in Israel?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Frodo on April 01, 2012, 03:55:35 PM
Has labour ever won a government in Israel?

Not since Ehud Barak was prime minister.  You can thank Yasser Arafat and his scuttling of the peace process for the straits the Labour Party is in now.   


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on April 01, 2012, 06:51:42 PM
Has labour ever won a government in Israel?

Is that an April Fool question?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: ag on April 01, 2012, 11:59:52 PM
Has labour ever won a government in Israel?

Is it a joke?

Labor was continuously in power in Israel from its creation (1948) till 1977. Back then it was one of those eternal governing parties, like the LDP in Japan and INC in India.

Since then, Israel has had Labor PM in 1984-86 (as part of a grand coalition), 1992-1996 and 1999-2001.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: ag on April 02, 2012, 12:20:45 AM
Considering Mofaz wanted to enter the current coalition I don't think there will be much trouble for Kadima to enter the next one. Kadima should also be fine with being in coalition with Shas so a Likud+Kadima+Yisrael Beitenu+Shas+UTJ coalition is quite likely. It's also possible to replace Shas and UTJ with Lapid but I don't trust Israeli politicians with excluding the haredim.

Well, of course, the natural home of Kadima is Likud. I agree, it is quite likely they'd join a right-wing gov't - in fact, it is quite likely they'd fold back into Likud by the end of the Knesset in which they do it. There, of course, will be some (likely minor) defections to Labor in the process and the normalcy will be restored :))

Israeli politicians will not exclude the haredim - for a reason. Those polls you cite give the haredim, what 20-23 seats almost consistently, w/ another 10-13 going to the Arabs+Hadash. That's 30-36 seats - very likely over a quarter of the total. Labor + Meretz are unlikely to drop much below 18 or 20 - and Labor is not going into a right-wing coalition again, given what it did to them last time. So, to form an entirely non-haredi government, it would have to be a narrow coalition, in which you'd have to rely on the loyalty of the relatively leftyish Kadima members and the likely not very predictable Lapidniks (even if they don't call them that, it sounds like a good word:) ). To be sure that it would hold for a full term, it would have to give something to these people to dissuade them from splitting off in strange directions: likely either undertake a massive secular reform agenda (making it harder to get the haredim back if anything happens), or doing something for peace (which is anathema to most of the rest of the coalition).

But even if it turns out that the Kadima holds whole and Lapidniks are good secular right-wingers, longer term it is a loosing strategy. The Arabs and the haredim will be growing - in another generation it is very likely they together will have over 40 seats as a matter of routine.  Labor will recover somewhat once Kadima is out of the way - in any case, Israel has enough leftists to reliably get 20 seats between Labor and Meretz if there is no other party claiming to be part of the Zionist left. If you want a right-wing government, you'll have to deal w/ the haredim: they are the future of any Jewish Democratic State :)) In another 30 years they will be nominating the PM of their own :))


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on April 30, 2012, 09:40:53 AM
Now that the elections are likely to happen sometime between August and October there should be more polls coming.
Here is one from Yediot: (http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4222374,00.html)

Likud: 30
Labour: 18
Yisrael Beitenu: 13
Kadima: 11
There is a Future (the new name for Lapid's party): 11
Shas: 7
UTJ: 6
Meretz: 5
Deri: 3
National Union: 3
Jewish Home: 2
Independence: 0
Arab parties:11


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on May 02, 2012, 09:32:54 AM
And another: (http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/363/632.html)

Likud: 31
Labour: 17
Yisrael Beitenu: 13
There Is A Future: 12
Kadima: 10
Shas: 8
UTJ: 6
Meretz: 4
National Union: 4
Jewish Home: 2
Deri: 2
Independence: 0
Arab parties: 11

The election will probably be on the September 4.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Vosem on May 02, 2012, 04:31:00 PM
Could you explain why Netanyahu would want an early election? I'm not sure why not just wait until early 2013, when it was supposed to be held.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on May 02, 2012, 05:00:06 PM
Could you explain why Netanyahu would want an early election? I'm not sure why not just wait until early 2013, when it was supposed to be held.

If Israel were to attack Iran, there's probably little upside for Netanyahu and the potential for considerable downside.  Having the election sooner frees him to do what he thinks the situation calls for without having to worry about the political risks.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on May 02, 2012, 05:56:48 PM
Could you explain why Netanyahu would want an early election? I'm not sure why not just wait until early 2013, when it was supposed to be held.

The closer you get to an election the less incentive parties have to stay in it and the more incentive to leave to position themselves for the elections.

The current problem is with the new law replacing the Tal law (dealing with religious exemptions from the army) Yisrael beitenu decided to propose their own law and threatened to leave the coalition if it didn't pass, but if Netanyahu would agree than the Haredi parties would have left themselves. In either case the government would have fallen. So Netanyahu could either try to prolong the government as much as possible but have it fall apart soon anyway, or preempt this and decide on an election date himself. The latter makes him look stronger and more competent coming into the elections.

While it might not really be Netanyahu's true wish to have an early election, it's still a good time for him. he is doing well in the polls and he would have a lot leverage in the negotiation for the new coalition, since all the parties from Labour rightwards are realistic potential coalition partners (excluding possibly the National Union).


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on May 02, 2012, 06:41:07 PM
Wow- Kadima has fallen... what is "There Is A Future"? I've tried to look it up...


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Vosem on May 02, 2012, 07:29:07 PM
Wow- Kadima has fallen... what is "There Is A Future"? I've tried to look it up...

It's known colloquially in Hebrew as 'Atid' -- it's English Wikipedia article is pathetic, but here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atid_(political_party)


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on May 03, 2012, 01:04:56 AM
Wow- Kadima has fallen... what is "There Is A Future"? I've tried to look it up...

Yair Lapid's new party.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on May 09, 2012, 08:42:58 AM
Poll conducted yesterday (http://www.kikarhashabat.co.il/40-%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%93-%D7%9E%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%9C%D7%AA-%D7%94%D7%90%D7%97%D7%93%D7%95%D7%AA-63-%D7%94%D7%9B%D7%9C-%D7%9E%D7%9E%D7%A0.html) (after the new of new coalition):

Likud: 33
Labour: 19
Yisrael Beitenu: 15
Kadima: 11
Shas: 8
Future: 6
UTJ: 6
Meretz:6
Jewish Home- National Union: 5
Arab parties- 10

Do you support the new coalition agreement:

Yes: 39.6%
No: 31.9
Don't know: 28.4%

Who is most suitable to be prime minister:

Bibi: 39.8%
Shelly: 11.3%
Lapid: 7%
Mofaz: 4.5%
Lieberman: 4.2%


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on May 18, 2012, 02:07:14 AM
New poll (http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/369/292.html):

Likud- 30
Labour-20
Future- 17
Yisrael Beitenu- 12
Shas-6
National Union- 6
Meretz- 6
UTJ- 5
Hadash-4
Kadima- 3 (lol)
Jewish Home- 3
Balad- 3
UAL- 3
Independence- 2

Lapid seems to be the biggest gainer from Kadima entering the coalition.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Insula Dei on May 18, 2012, 05:36:23 AM
Kadima...


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: ag on May 18, 2012, 09:14:24 PM
New Lapid seems to be the biggest gainer from Kadima entering the coalition.
 (http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/369/292.html)

And Barak :)) He might, actually, get to stay in the Knesset :))

It seems, my sense of Israeli politics hasn't been THAT bad, has it?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on May 19, 2012, 05:42:34 AM
hahaha


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on May 19, 2012, 06:17:11 AM
It seems the next election will continue the tradition of Israeli centrist parties quickly rising up and then disappearing and being replaced by a new centrist party.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on June 04, 2012, 05:31:16 AM
New poll from globes: (http://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1000753450&fid=3165)

Likud: 33
Labour: 19
Yisrael Beitenu: 14
Shas: 8
Future: 8
Kadima: 7
UTJ: 6
National Union: 4
Jewish Home: 4
Meretz: 4
Hadash: 4
Balad: 4
UAL-TAAL: 3
Independence: 2

Relatively Better for Kadima and worse for Lapid.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on July 12, 2012, 09:55:58 AM
New poll (http://www.jdn.co.il/news/92389) by channel 10:

Likud- 29
Labour- 17
Yisrael Beitenu- 15
Kadima- 10
Future- 10
Shas- 9
UTJ- 6
Meretz- 4
Hadash- 4
Jewish Home- 3
National Union- 3
UAL- 3
Balad- 3
Aryeh Deri- 2
Independence- 2


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Free Palestine on July 13, 2012, 10:20:11 PM
What is Labor's position on the Israel-Palestine conflict?  I was going to say "looks like the HPs are ahead in the polls, as usual," but then I couldn't find anything in Labor's Wiki page.  I like to keep my snarks factually accurate.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Vosem on July 13, 2012, 10:30:31 PM
What is Labor's position on the Israel-Palestine conflict?  I was going to say "looks like the HPs are ahead in the polls, as usual," but then I couldn't find anything in Labor's Wiki page.  I like to keep my snarks factually accurate.

By tradition, Labor has a hawkish wing and a more peaceful wing, and recently the peaceful wing has been ascendant, as Ehud Barak, a key leader of the more hawkish Laborites, left to form his own party, Independence. Labor is largely a majority-Jewish party but has a significant Arab minority, of which the most prominent member is Knesset member Raleb Majadele, who was the first-ever Arab member of the Israeli Cabinet. Danny is probably going to come online and say all this is wrong, as usual when I try to explain Israeli politics

Honestly, the top-line of this poll (Likud in first way ahead, Labor in second just ahead of Yisrael Beiteinu) isn't very interesting, but it seems Kadima has been surging at the expense of Yesh Atid, and the predicted split between the Kadima-left and Kadima-right hasn't happened -- has Shaul Mofaz's decision to join the government proved smarter than we thought? Or is this an outlier, or maybe Kadima has bounced back but won't be bouncing any further? Help us, danny!


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on July 14, 2012, 08:34:43 AM
What is Labor's position on the Israel-Palestine conflict?  I was going to say "looks like the HPs are ahead in the polls, as usual," but then I couldn't find anything in Labor's Wiki page.  I like to keep my snarks factually accurate.

Likud has been ahead in all the polls for a long time so you can snark away.

As for Labour's positions, they are more dovish than Likud but to you they would still count as HPs, as they still backed the government in regards to the Marmara, and were members of the coalition during Cast Lead and The Second Lebanon war.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Free Palestine on July 14, 2012, 11:54:19 AM
Alright, so...

Looks like the HPs are ahead in the polls, as usual.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on July 14, 2012, 01:38:35 PM
Alright, so...

Looks like the HPs are ahead in the polls, as usual.

I imagine that anyone but the 3 Arab parties would be considered horrible by you, so you can be sure that it will remain that way.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Free Palestine on July 14, 2012, 06:11:34 PM
Alright, so...

Looks like the HPs are ahead in the polls, as usual.

I imagine that anyone but the 3 Arab parties would be considered horrible by you, so you can be sure that it will remain that way.

Not quite.  I like Hadash, which isn't an exclusively Arab party.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on July 14, 2012, 06:56:33 PM
Alright, so...

Looks like the HPs are ahead in the polls, as usual.

I imagine that anyone but the 3 Arab parties would be considered horrible by you, so you can be sure that it will remain that way.

Not quite.  I like Hadash, which isn't an exclusively Arab party.

I said the 3 Arab parties parties for a reason. I do that because a large majority of the electorate is Arab, the same way you can call all the other parties Jewish, even though their electorate isn't made up entirely of Jews.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: NY Jew on July 14, 2012, 10:22:37 PM
Alright, so...

Looks like the HPs are ahead in the polls, as usual.

I imagine that anyone but the 3 Arab parties would be considered horrible by you, so you can be sure that it will remain that way.
I'm sure he'll like Meretz their more pro terrorist then some of the Arab partie's MKs


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Free Palestine on July 14, 2012, 10:43:52 PM

lol


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: The Mikado on July 15, 2012, 12:01:43 AM
Israeli politics is a depressing, tragicomic spectacle.

Wait, what's wrong with that sentence?

Ah, yes.

Israeli politics is a depressing, tragicomic spectacle.

I suppose, as I did ten years ago, that I theoretically back Lapid.  (Different Lapid, but that's a technicality)


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Peter the Lefty on July 18, 2012, 03:22:12 PM
Alright, so...

Looks like the HPs are ahead in the polls, as usual.

I imagine that anyone but the 3 Arab parties would be considered horrible by you, so you can be sure that it will remain that way.
Actually, one question I've had for a while: why is Labor always so obedient and hesitant to oppose things like Operation Cast Lead, the Second Lebanon War, etc?  I really hope it's not because their supporters will abandon them if they do. 


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on July 18, 2012, 04:53:16 PM

Actually, one question I've had for a while: why is Labor always so obedient and hesitant to oppose things like Operation Cast Lead, the Second Lebanon War, etc?  I really hope it's not because their supporters will abandon them if they do. 

While I am sure they would lose support, I don't think this is the reason. I think they simply support those things. There really isn't much difference between Likud, Labour and Kadima when it comes to the use of force against the enemy, the differences are on other issues.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Peter the Lefty on July 22, 2012, 06:43:58 PM

Actually, one question I've had for a while: why is Labor always so obedient and hesitant to oppose things like Operation Cast Lead, the Second Lebanon War, etc?  I really hope it's not because their supporters will abandon them if they do. 

While I am sure they would lose support, I don't think this is the reason. I think they simply support those things. There really isn't much difference between Likud, Labour and Kadima when it comes to the use of force against the enemy, the differences are on other issues.
But why not at least to varying degrees?  It's pretty shocking that so many people on all parts of the political spectrum would support Operation Cast Lead and the 2nd Lebanon war in their entirety. 


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on July 22, 2012, 07:50:49 PM

Actually, one question I've had for a while: why is Labor always so obedient and hesitant to oppose things like Operation Cast Lead, the Second Lebanon War, etc?  I really hope it's not because their supporters will abandon them if they do. 

While I am sure they would lose support, I don't think this is the reason. I think they simply support those things. There really isn't much difference between Likud, Labour and Kadima when it comes to the use of force against the enemy, the differences are on other issues.
But why not at least to varying degrees?  It's pretty shocking that so many people on all parts of the political spectrum would support Operation Cast Lead and the 2nd Lebanon war in their entirety. 

It was to varying degrees, It's just that in Labour's case, they were in the coalition and led by a relatively similar party on this issue so it makes sense for them to support it. Meretz to the left supported some action, but went against it somewhere in the middle. Netanyahu, on the right said after Cast Lead that he would have continued with it longer and said that the government ended it too soon.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on July 23, 2012, 12:12:31 PM
A poll from Yediot (http://www.jdn.co.il/news/95924) that looks bad for Bibi:

Likud 27
Labour 21
Yisrael Beitenu 13
Future (Lapid) 13
Shas 10
Kadima 7
National Union 6
UTJ 6
Meretz 4
Mafdal (Jewish Home) 4
Hadash 4
UAL 4
Independence 2

On the other hand we have this poll: (http://www.srugim.co.il/34299-%D7%A1%D7%A7%D7%A8-%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%93-%D7%9E%D7%AA%D7%97%D7%96%D7%A7-%D7%A7%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%94-%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%A7%D7%AA-%D7%95%D7%94%D7%93%D7%AA%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9D?di=1)

Likud 37
Labour 16
Yisrael Beitenu 13
Future 9
Shas 7
Kadima 6
UTJ 6
Meretz 6
Jewish Home 5
National Union 4
"Arab parties" 11


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Dereich on July 23, 2012, 01:21:16 PM
A poll from Yediot (http://www.jdn.co.il/news/95924) that looks bad for Bibi:

Likud 27
Labour 21
Yisrael Beitenu 13
Future (Lapid) 13
Shas 10
Kadima 7
National Union 6
UTJ 6
Meretz 4
Mafdal (Jewish Home) 4
Hadash 4
UAL 4
Independence 2

What kind of government would come out of an election like that?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: RodPresident on July 23, 2012, 04:59:05 PM
A poll from Yediot (http://www.jdn.co.il/news/95924) that looks bad for Bibi:

Likud 27
Labour 21
Yisrael Beitenu 13
Future (Lapid) 13
Shas 10
Kadima 7
National Union 6
UTJ 6
Meretz 4
Mafdal (Jewish Home) 4
Hadash 4
UAL 4
Independence 2

What kind of government would come out of an election like that?
Bibi still would have a majority, although he wouldn't have margin for more measures, as religious parties would be decisive. But losing 1st place to Yehimovich would be embarrassing. If Netanyahu is desiring to go for a non-religious coalition with Labour, Future, Kadima and Independence, he would get 70 seats, but it would backfire a lot at Likud and make Lieberman happy.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on July 23, 2012, 05:22:51 PM
A poll from Yediot (http://www.jdn.co.il/news/95924) that looks bad for Bibi:

Likud 27
Labour 21
Yisrael Beitenu 13
Future (Lapid) 13
Shas 10
Kadima 7
National Union 6
UTJ 6
Meretz 4
Mafdal (Jewish Home) 4
Hadash 4
UAL 4
Independence 2

What kind of government would come out of an election like that?

There are quite a few options, so I really can't say.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on July 23, 2012, 05:55:08 PM

Bibi still would have a majority, although he wouldn't have margin for more measures, as religious parties would be decisive. But losing 1st place to Yehimovich would be embarrassing. If Netanyahu is desiring to go for a non-religious coalition with Labour, Future, Kadima and Independence, he would get 70 seats, but it would backfire a lot at Likud and make Lieberman happy.

I think YB would be a more likely partner than Labour, and even if Labour is there that doesn't necessarily exclude YB from also being there. YB is actually a natural partner to have in a secular coalition, especially one headed by Likud.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: hawkeye59 on July 24, 2012, 08:22:25 AM

Bibi still would have a majority, although he wouldn't have margin for more measures, as religious parties would be decisive. But losing 1st place to Yehimovich would be embarrassing. If Netanyahu is desiring to go for a non-religious coalition with Labour, Future, Kadima and Independence, he would get 70 seats, but it would backfire a lot at Likud and make Lieberman happy.

I think YB would be a more likely partner than Labour, and even if Labour is there that doesn't necessarily exclude YB from also being there. YB is actually a natural partner to have in a secular coalition, especially one headed by Likud.
So, with that result, a Likud-YB-Lapid-Kadima-Independence or a Likud-YB-Lapid-Kadima coalition is likely?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Vosem on July 24, 2012, 08:52:02 AM

Bibi still would have a majority, although he wouldn't have margin for more measures, as religious parties would be decisive. But losing 1st place to Yehimovich would be embarrassing. If Netanyahu is desiring to go for a non-religious coalition with Labour, Future, Kadima and Independence, he would get 70 seats, but it would backfire a lot at Likud and make Lieberman happy.

I think YB would be a more likely partner than Labour, and even if Labour is there that doesn't necessarily exclude YB from also being there. YB is actually a natural partner to have in a secular coalition, especially one headed by Likud.
So, with that result, a Likud-YB-Lapid-Kadima-Independence or a Likud-YB-Lapid-Kadima coalition is likely?

Independence was created specifically to be in coalition with Likud and YB...


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on July 24, 2012, 09:08:13 AM

So, with that result, a Likud-YB-Lapid-Kadima-Independence or a Likud-YB-Lapid-Kadima coalition is likely?

Yes, that is certainly a possibility, but so is including the haredi parties instead of Lapid.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on August 03, 2012, 05:21:25 AM
Another one from Globes: (http://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1000771272)

Likud 27
Labour 19
Yisrael Beitenu 15
Future 13
Shas 9
UTJ 6
Jewish Home 5
Naional Union 4
Kadima 4
Meretz 4
Independence 3
Arab Parties 11


The way Kadima is going they might not even pass the election threshold of 2% by the time the elections arrive.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on September 08, 2012, 12:46:21 AM
The Israel institute of democracy made a big poll (http://www.idi.org.il/sites/english/events/ThePresidentsConference/Pages/TheIsraeliDemocracyIndex2012.aspx) (with an English version) including many interesting political questions and subsamples if anyone's interested.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on September 28, 2012, 10:07:18 AM
New poll from globes: (http://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1000787111#fromelement=hp_deot)

Likud: 28
Labour: 19
Yisrael Beitenu: 16
Future (Lapid): 11
Shas: 10
UTJ: 6
Jewish Home: 5
Kadima: 4
National Union: 4
Meretz: 4
Independence: 2
"Arab parties": 11


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on September 28, 2012, 10:17:49 AM
Can you please explain how Kadima droppepd so low...


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: RogueBeaver on September 28, 2012, 10:24:43 AM
LOL Kadima. Amazing how just a couple of years ago Lab was written off as dead, now Kadima's headed that route. Like clarence I'd be interested in hearing what happened.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on September 28, 2012, 12:07:52 PM
Once again, thanks for the update.

Can you please explain how Kadima droppepd so low...

A read through this entire thread ought to answer that question.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on September 28, 2012, 01:46:41 PM
Can you please explain how Kadima droppepd so low...

It has been a year long process in which everything went badly for them.

At the beginning of last summer Kadima was doing about the same as Likud at the top. Then came the social (economic) protests which highlighted the fact that there aren't big differences between them and Likud on these issues. then came the Labour primaries, in which shelly was elected leader instead of the terribly unpopular Barak. Shelly used the protests to her advantage, and is good at differentiating herself from Bibi on these issues.

  Then came the release of Gilad Shalit, which was popular with Kadima's potential voters, but which Livni opposed. After that Lapid started a new party, which presented a new centrist alternative to Kadima, and took many votes from them. Then there were the Kadima primaries in which the even less popular Mofaz won.

  Mofaz went on to be a terrible leader, promising in clear terms that he wouldn't join the government and support new elections. Immediately after that he broke his promises and joined the coalition and saved the government from collapse and new elections. This coalition went badly and Kadima quickly left, which made Kadima's entry look even worse.

All this was on top of the fact that centrist voters are very fickle, with a history of centrist parties coming and the disappearing, like Shinui, Gil, Dash, The Centre Party and The third way.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on October 03, 2012, 12:03:26 PM
I missed this poll by Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/as-early-elections-loom-netanyahu-s-standing-in-polls-is-stronger-than-ever.premium-1.467275) from last week:

Likud: 28
Labour: 20
Yisrael Beitenu: 14
Shas: 11
Kadima:8
Future (Lapid): 8
UTJ: 7
Jewish Home-National Union: 6
Meretz: 5
UAL-TAAL: 5
Hadash: 4
Balad: 2
Independence: 2


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on October 03, 2012, 12:05:49 PM
Perhaps Independence will merge with Kadima, so that Barak can be its leader. That would be amusing.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on October 11, 2012, 05:25:21 AM
now that we are heading for elections, there will be many polls until the elections, with two new polls (http://megafon-news.co.il/asys/archives/87771) out today.

starting with Ma'ariv:

Likud: 29
Labour: 17
Yesh Atid (Lapid): 17
Yisrael Beitenu: 13
Shas: 10
Kadima: 6
UTJ: 5
Jewish Home: 5
UAL-TAAL: 4
Meretz: 4
Hadash: 3
Balad: 3
Independence: 2
National Union: 2

Ha'aretz:

Likud: 29
Labour: 19
Yisrael Beitenu: 15
Yesh Atid (Lapid): 11
Shas: 10
Jewish Home-National Union: 8
Kadima: 7
UTJ: 6
UAL-TAAL: 5
Hadash: 4
Meretz: 4
Balad: 2


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on October 11, 2012, 09:09:10 AM
The Ma'ariv poll also tested a possible Livni-Olmert party (because we have such a shortage of Centre, centre-left parties...):

Likud: 29
Labour: 16
Yesh Atid: 13
Yisrael Beitenu: 12
Livni-Olmert: 10
Shas: 9
Jewish Home: 5
UTJ: 5
UAL-TAAL: 4
Hadash: 4
Meretz: 3
Kadima: 3
Balad: 3
National Union: 2
Independence: 2


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on October 11, 2012, 03:43:15 PM
And another from the Knesset channel:

Likud: 29
Labour: 23
Yesh Atid: 15
Yisrael Beitenu: 12
Shas: 9
UTJ: 5
National Union: 5
Jewish Home: 4
Meretz: 4
Hadash: 4
Balad: 4
UAL-TAAL: 3
Kadima: 3


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: ag on October 11, 2012, 06:39:13 PM
Would Lapid Jr. be willing to go into a right-wing coalition w/ any of the religious parties?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Kitteh on October 11, 2012, 06:43:17 PM
The Ma'ariv poll also tested a possible Livni-Olmert party (because we have such a shortage of Centre, centre-left parties...):

Has there been discussion about this happening? Any statements from Livni or Olmert or just media chatter?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on October 11, 2012, 07:28:42 PM
Would Lapid Jr. be willing to go into a right-wing coalition w/ any of the religious parties?

He would with the religious Zionists. The Ultra-Orthodox are more of a problem, and I don't see that happening.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on October 11, 2012, 07:32:13 PM
The Ma'ariv poll also tested a possible Livni-Olmert party (because we have such a shortage of Centre, centre-left parties...):

Has there been discussion about this happening? Any statements from Livni or Olmert or just media chatter?

Nothing direct, but there have been vague statements from the two about considering running in the elections.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Insula Dei on October 11, 2012, 07:46:21 PM
Re: that latest poll: is there actually any possibility at all of Labour coming out on top?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: The Simpsons Cinematic Universe on October 11, 2012, 08:03:14 PM
Massive fall for Kadima, eh? Does that have something to do with that short lived coalition with Likud they were involved in earlier in the year, perhaps?

Unfortunate that Likud has such a firm lead.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Vosem on October 11, 2012, 11:00:19 PM
How are some of the smaller, newer parties doing (obviously not counting Yesh Atid, we know about them)? Things like Atzmaut (Barak's party), Tikun (apparently, Aryeh Deri was forming a party), Am Shalem (some random Shas breakoff), and that weird Arab Zionist party Wikipedia has an article on founded by an ex-Arab member of Likud named Sarhan Bader (he's calling it the Israeli Arab Nationalist Party)?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on October 12, 2012, 02:43:13 AM
Re: that latest poll: is there actually any possibility at all of Labour coming out on top?

This is about the gap that Kadima closed during the last campaign, so it is possible. But just like with Kadima, if the right has a majority, than it may not help them.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on October 12, 2012, 02:55:32 AM
Massive fall for Kadima, eh? Does that have something to do with that short lived coalition with Likud they were involved in earlier in the year, perhaps?

Unfortunate that Likud has such a firm lead.

that is only one factor of many, see  this link (https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=142845.msg3441180#msg3441180) for more.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on October 12, 2012, 03:22:07 AM
How are some of the smaller, newer parties doing (obviously not counting Yesh Atid, we know about them)? Things like Atzmaut (Barak's party), Tikun (apparently, Aryeh Deri was forming a party), Am Shalem (some random Shas breakoff), and that weird Arab Zionist party Wikipedia has an article on founded by an ex-Arab member of Likud named Sarhan Bader (he's calling it the Israeli Arab Nationalist Party)?

Atzmaut- some of the polls give it the minimum 2 seats, some have it failing to pass the minimum threshold.

Aryeh Deri- It is looking more likely that Deri rejoins Shas.

Am Shalem- Is currently in talks about merging with the Jewish Home and National Union to create a broad religious Zionist party.

Sarhan Bader- I have never heard of him, so I searched google. There doesn't seem to be anything about him except for that wikipedia article which comes from a Jerusalem post article about him. Looking in Hebrew only gave a an article where he's in a list of candidates running for elections in his village council, but nothing to say that he ever actually founded a party. maybe there is more about him in Arabic, but I am not optimistic.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on October 12, 2012, 06:27:15 PM
The Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=287497) managed to get Likud to "lose" the election, by combining Olmert-Livni-Lapid-Kadima:

New Centrist Party: 31
Likud: 27
Yisrael Beitenu: 14
Labour: 12
Shas: 11
UTJ: 6
National Union: 4
Jewish Home: 4
Hadash: 4
UAL-TAAL: 4
Balad: 3

(Meretz and the independence party don't pass the electoral threshold).


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on October 16, 2012, 04:48:02 AM
New poll by Walla: (http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/9/2575899)

Likud: 30
Labour: 19
Yesh Atid: 14
Yisrael Beitenu: 12
Shas: 9
Kadima: 6
UTJ: 6
Jewish Home: 5
Meretz: 5
Hadash: 4
UAL-TAAL: 4
Balad: 3
National Union: 2
Independence: 1

With an Olmert-Livni-Mofaz-Lapid party:

Likud : 29
New Centre Party: 23
Labour:18
Yisrael Beitenu: 12
Shas: 9
UTJ: 6
Jewish Home: 5
Meretz: 4
Hadash: 4
UAL-TAAL: 4
Balad: 3
National Union: 2
Independence: 1


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on April 29, 2013, 09:03:12 AM
A marriage poll from mako (http://www.mako.co.il/pride-news/local/Article-05478576ff05e31006.htm&sCh=3d385dd2dd5d4110&pId=565984153):

Do you support civil marriage in Israel:
Yes: 71.5%
No: 23.8%
No opinion: 4.7%

Do you support same-sex marriage in Israel:
Yes: 55%
No: 38.4%
No opinion: 6.6%

Do you think same-sex marriages should be allowed as part of the Rabbinate:
Yes: 25.8%
No: 59.6%
No opinion: 14.6%


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on April 29, 2013, 12:05:30 PM
Regardless of how people feel, none of this is happening any time soon.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on April 30, 2013, 02:38:12 PM
A figure support civil marriage crossing 70% really show evidence to the case that is a cross spectrum consensus from left to right and we are truly being ran by the religious minority.

The 55% support for gay marriage is a pleasant surprise...soon enough we'll have a gay mayor to Tel Aviv as well, I suspect the archaic discriminating marriage laws in Israel are done for and they will be abolished in the very near future 


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on August 30, 2013, 12:44:40 PM
Time to revive this thread with a new poll from Globes (http://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1000876252):

Likud Beitenu: 33
Labour: 18
Jewish Home: 13
Yesh Atid: 12
Meretz: 11
Shas: 10
UTJ: 8
The Movement: 4
Hadash: 4
RAAM-TAAL: 4
Balad: 3


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Leftbehind on August 30, 2013, 01:07:47 PM
Meretz at 11% with Labour and Hadash stable? Encouraging.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on August 30, 2013, 01:10:20 PM
Meretz at 11% with Labour and Hadash stable? Encouraging.

11 seats, rather than 11%. That's about 8-9% or so.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Leftbehind on August 30, 2013, 01:21:53 PM
Aw yeah, can't get used to polling figures by seats.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Vosem on August 30, 2013, 05:02:51 PM
"Right-religious" majority (as defined in the 2013 campaign), 64-56. The government as it is formed today (right-religious, minus Shas and UTJ, plus Yesh Atid and the Movement) has only 52 seats. This would basically be a shift from today's government to a 2009-2013 government, with a religious cohort instead of a centrist one and Netanyahu staying as PM. Ironically Israel's current party system is much like Germany's, where the right side of the spectrum has temporarily become dominant and voters get the choice between empowering the "center-left" to form a coalition with them (Yesh Atid/SPD) or an "unusual right" (religious in Israel (Shas), libertarianish in Germany (FDP)).


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on August 30, 2013, 06:13:40 PM
Keep in mind that the minimum threshold is in the process of being raised from 2% to 4%, so small parties will have to merge to pass it, which means that the parties won't look the same in the next election (not that they ever do anyway...).


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on August 31, 2013, 05:33:38 AM
Keep in mind that the minimum threshold is in the process of being raised from 2% to 4%, so small parties will have to merge to pass it, which means that the parties won't look the same in the next election (not that they ever do anyway...).
Most people and MKs I spoke with are fairly certain the bar won't be passed to 4% but to 2.5-3%


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on October 18, 2013, 05:10:00 AM
New poll from Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politi/.premium-1.2143600#.UmDiVaLlsg4.facebook):

Favourability (Last months poll in brackets):

Bibi:
favourable: 44% (45%)
unfavourable: 43% (45%)

Lapid:
favourable: 14% (25%)
unfavourable: 75% (63%) LOL...

Boogey ya'alon:
favourable: 46% (54%)
unfavourable: 16% (20%)


Who is the most suitable to be prime minister?
Bibi: 63% (56%)
Shelly: 12% (15%)
Lapid: 5% (7%)

How would you define Bibi's handling of the Iranian issue on the world stage?
very good: 17%
good: 41%
not so good: 23%
not good at all: 9%
don't know: 10%

Knesset seats:
Likud: 32 (31)
Labour: 17 (17)
Jewish Home: 15 (15)
Meretz: 12 (10)
Yesh Atid: 10 (16)
Shas: 10 (8 )
UTJ: 6 (7)
The Movement: 5 (3)
UAL: 5 (5)
Hadash: 4 (5)
Kadima: 2 (2)
Balad: 2 (2)


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Vosem on October 18, 2013, 01:36:33 PM
Why is Lapid so unpopular? Is it because of his coalition with Bibi, or a different reason?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on October 18, 2013, 06:21:33 PM
He's Israel's very own Nick Clegg.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Leftbehind on October 18, 2013, 06:32:39 PM

If there's any consolation with this coalition, it's how Clegg has become a verb. 


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on October 18, 2013, 06:34:10 PM

If there's any consolation with this coalition, it's how Clegg has become a verb. 

See, it has a cultural legacy that isn't entirely destructive!


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on October 18, 2013, 06:44:08 PM
Why is Lapid so unpopular? Is it because of his coalition with Bibi, or a different reason?

It's a tradition for Centrist parties to rise and fall quickly, so this is normal. Add to that the fact that he is finance minister, which means that you're the face of any tax hikes or spending cuts.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: RodPresident on October 18, 2013, 10:24:48 PM
Why is Lapid so unpopular? Is it because of his coalition with Bibi, or a different reason?

It's a tradition for Centrist parties to rise and fall quickly, so this is normal. Add to that the fact that he is finance minister, which means that you're the face of any tax hikes or spending cuts.
And you're forgetting that Orthodox Jews hate him for being out of government.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on October 19, 2013, 03:30:10 AM
Why is Lapid so unpopular? Is it because of his coalition with Bibi, or a different reason?

It's a tradition for Centrist parties to rise and fall quickly, so this is normal. Add to that the fact that he is finance minister, which means that you're the face of any tax hikes or spending cuts.
And you're forgetting that Orthodox Jews hate him for being out of government.

You mean ultra-orthodox, but they never liked him in the first place, even when he was popular.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Peter the Lefty on October 19, 2013, 10:47:02 AM
Still a great figure nonetheless.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on November 28, 2013, 08:01:00 AM
Knesset channel poll, first one after the rise of Herzog.

Likud - 35
Labour -19
Meretz - 13 (!! new record)
JH - 12
Lapid - 10
Shas - 10
UTJ - 6
Livni - 4
Hadash - 4
Islamic movement - 4
Balad - 3


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: hawkeye59 on November 28, 2013, 10:49:15 AM
Knesset channel poll, first one after the rise of Herzog.

Likud - 35
Labour -19
Meretz - 13 (!! new record)
JH - 12
Lapid - 10
Shas - 10
UTJ - 6
Livni - 4
Hadash - 4
Islamic movement - 4
Balad - 3
!


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on December 16, 2013, 12:14:55 AM
Haaretz poll regarding gay rights:

If you were an employer would you hire someone who is gay for a job?
yes: 82%
no: 14%
Don't know: 4%

Do you support a legal recognition of same-sex marriage?
yes: 59%
no: 33%
don't know: 7%

Should a discussion about sexual orientation be allowed in schools?
yes: 67%
no: 24%
don't know: 9%

Would you allow your child to be around the children of same sex parents?
yes: 68%
no: 24%
don't know: 8%

Do you support allowing same sex couples to adopt children?

yes: 66%
no: 27%
don't know: 7%

Do you support allowing same sex couples to go through a surrogacy procedure?
yes: 64%
no: 29%
don't know: 7%

Do you support allowing gays to give blood?
yes: 63%
no: 25%
don't know: 12%

Do you support the equal distribution of funds to organizations of the gay community?
yes: 66%
no: 24%
don't know: 10%

Should gay pride parades be allowed in Israel?
yes: 34%
no: 40%
in some cities: 20%
don't know: 7%

Do you support promoting Israel as a destination for gay tourism?
yes: 54%
no: 34%
don't know: 12%

Do you support laws that would give equal rights to same sex couples?
yes: 70%
no: 23%
don't know: 7%

If one of your children would announce that they are gay, would you accept their sexual orientation?
yes: 70%
no: 19%
don't know: 11%


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on December 17, 2013, 10:16:34 AM
This Knesset is just the perfect one to pass SSM


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on December 17, 2013, 03:57:04 PM
This Knesset is just the perfect one to pass SSM

Even if a majority of MK's support SSM, you still need a favourable coalition to get it past.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on December 17, 2013, 10:32:00 PM
Basically every Knesset for the last 10 years had the votes to legalize secular marriage but it didn't happen.

Not going to happen with gay marriage either.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 02, 2014, 12:49:04 PM
Knesset channel poll:

Likud Beitenu: 33
Labour: 17
JH: 15
Yesh Atid: 13
Meretz: 11
Shas: 10
UTJ: 7
Hatnua: 4
Hadash: 4
Balad: 4
RAAM-TAAL: 3


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 05, 2014, 05:15:56 PM
Channel 2 poll (http://www.mako.co.il/news-military/politics/Article-21888f4cbc36341004.htm?sCh=3d385dd2dd5d4110&pId=1898243326):

Likud: 33
Labour: 16
Yesh Atid: 14
Jewish Home: 11
Shas: 10
Meretz: 7
The Movement: 7
UTJ: 7
Hadash: 4
RAAM-TAAL: 4
Kadima: 2
Otzma: 2

Are you pleased with the performance of the government?
Yes: 27%
No: 65%

Who is most suitable to be PM?
Bibi: 30%
Herzog: 11%
Livni: 7%
Lieberman: 6%
Bennet: 6%
Lapid: 5%

Amongst people who voted for Shas, who do you think should lead Shas?
Yishai: 50%
Deri: 25%


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Sec. of State Superique on January 16, 2014, 09:49:02 AM
No Hatnuah?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 16, 2014, 09:55:07 AM

Hatnuah is the movement.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on January 16, 2014, 08:52:18 PM
Who is still supporting The Movement at this point? What could possibly be their rationale?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 16, 2014, 09:04:51 PM
Who is still supporting The Movement at this point? What could possibly be their rationale?

People who want to shift the government to the left from within the government, people who think of themselves as centrists but aren't happy with Lapid.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 21, 2014, 04:25:25 PM
A new poll from channel 1:

Likud Beitenu: 34
Labour: 16
Yesh Atid: 13
Jewish Home: 13
Shas: 10
Meretz: 7
UTJ: 7
The Movement: 4
Hadash: 4
Raam-Taal: 4
Balad: 3
Otzma Leisrael: 3
Kadima: 2

Who is the most suitable for the role of PM:
Bibi: 43.3%
Herzog: 13.9%
Bennet: 8.1%
Lapid: 3.6%
None of them: 14.5%
Dom't Know/refuse: 16.7%


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on January 21, 2014, 04:53:18 PM
Man, the left in Israel is just really DOA, huh? It's been well over a decade since Labor was in power. Strange to see.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: warandwar on January 21, 2014, 08:38:53 PM
Man, the left in Israel is just really DOA, huh? It's been well over a decade since Labor was in power. Strange to see.

They have enough relevance to be in the current government.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on January 21, 2014, 08:52:34 PM
Man, the left in Israel is just really DOA, huh? It's been well over a decade since Labor was in power. Strange to see.

They have enough relevance to be in the current government.

Hatnuah? They're centrist. I'm talking about Labor, which was in charge for the vast majority of Israel's pre-Barak days.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 21, 2014, 08:56:48 PM
Man, the left in Israel is just really DOA, huh? It's been well over a decade since Labor was in power. Strange to see.

They have enough relevance to be in the current government.

None of the leaders of any of the parties in government would refer to themselves as left wing, and being in government doesn't necessarily mean you are relevant anyway. The lefts real power comes from the supreme court and the media.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on January 21, 2014, 09:00:46 PM
Yesh Atid are not left. They are libertarians. They are horrible.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 21, 2014, 09:09:27 PM
Yesh Atid are not left. They are libertarians. They are horrible.

Yesh Atid are not Libertarian...


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on January 21, 2014, 09:12:19 PM
Yesh Atid stand for nothing except vague platitudes. They are terrible.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 21, 2014, 09:14:43 PM
Yesh Atid stand for nothing except vague platitudes. They are terrible.

Yeah that's more accurate.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on January 21, 2014, 09:19:23 PM
Yesh Atid stand for nothing except vague platitudes. They are terrible.

Which means that can't be libertarians.  Libertarians stand for clearly defined platitudes.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on January 22, 2014, 06:16:02 AM
Man, the left in Israel is just really DOA, huh? It's been well over a decade since Labor was in power. Strange to see.

They have enough relevance to be in the current government.

None of the leaders of any of the parties in government would refer to themselves as left wing, and being in government doesn't necessarily mean you are relevant anyway. The lefts real power comes from the supreme court and the media.
What media exactly is controlled by the left? I'm hearing this myth over and over, Haaretz is a left-wing newspaper in a legitimate way (not hiding its opinions) and channel 10 are vaguely lefty. Bar for them (which are both smaller scale media outlets) the entire media is centre-right.
Yediot Ahronot-Channel 2 is a centrist media bloc supporting Yesh Atid and maybe the centre part of Labour nothing from the left there, Channel 1 is fringe right wing and recent years and Israel Hayom is the Likud herald (which is legitimate). Clearly this 'the Left control the media' is a myth.

Regarding the courts it's pretty much BS as well, the courts have some commitments to humans rights (as stated by Israeli law) but bottom line the courts are mainstream Zionist, and as a lawyer I can tell you the people with solid right wing\left wing opinions will most likely not be selected for judge positions. 95% of judges in Israel are in Likud-Labour spectrum. Anyone with legal knowledge and understand the left positions will tell you it's a fable that does not correspond with reality and the supreme courts actual verdicts.

Overall more BS from the right to nurture your myth of traitors from within.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on January 22, 2014, 06:17:10 AM
Yesh Atid are not left. They are libertarians. They are horrible.
Yesh Atid might be described as Liberal or more accurately a party of non ideology sponsored by the rich and the old school establishment


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Peter the Lefty on January 25, 2014, 01:42:09 PM
Yesh Atid are not left. They are libertarians. They are horrible.
Yesh Atid might be described as Liberal or more accurately a party of non ideology sponsored by the rich and the old school establishment
Yesh Atid is essentially Yair Lapid's vehicle and nothing more.  It has no ideology. 


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on January 25, 2014, 02:11:45 PM
Happily a piece of jargon doth exist for such outfits: 'personalist'.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on January 25, 2014, 03:34:09 PM
Yesh Atid are not left. They are libertarians. They are horrible.
Yesh Atid might be described as Liberal or more accurately a party of non ideology sponsored by the rich and the old school establishment
Yesh Atid is essentially Yair Lapid's vehicle and nothing more.  It has no ideology. 
I think you overrate Yair Lapid's intelligence, he's ultimately the puppet not the puppeteer


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on January 25, 2014, 04:16:11 PM
Yesh Atid are not left. They are libertarians. They are horrible.
Yesh Atid might be described as Liberal or more accurately a party of non ideology sponsored by the rich and the old school establishment
Yesh Atid is essentially Yair Lapid's vehicle and nothing more.  It has no ideology. 
I think you overrate Yair Lapid's intelligence, he's ultimately the puppet not the puppeteer

Yep, trick some left-wingers into voting for a party that literally every serious commentator knew was going to support a Netanyahu government.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Sec. of State Superique on January 25, 2014, 04:24:43 PM
What are the major differences between Yesh Atid and Hatnuah? Are they both supposed to be centrist parties with a strong touch of personalism?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on January 25, 2014, 04:44:02 PM
The main difference during the campaign was that Hatnuah said several times unequivocally that they would never support a Netanyahu government (they did soften their language a few days before the election).

Yesh Atid basically planned to be in the Netanyahu government from the start. Although they did go back and fourth, making noise about whether or not they would allow Shas to be in government with them.

Right now, with them both in government, it's basically all personality.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on January 26, 2014, 04:07:39 AM
What are the major differences between Yesh Atid and Hatnuah? Are they both supposed to be centrist parties with a strong touch of personalism?
Ideologically Hatnuah had a more Dovish lean with Livni-Mitzna-Peretz at the top and a somewhat left economically lean too whilst Yesh Atid were vague on everything.

Politically, Lapid is a rather dumb individual that a group of powerful people (like the owner of Israel biggest newspaper and a crook, Arnon Moses; or the owner of channel 2 plus a group of very wealthy businessmen), Lapid's emphasis from the start was to talk about the Israeli middle class (though most of his voters are upper middle class) and establish him self as distant from the left or right tags of Israeli politics, something akin to extreme centrism.
Livni will probably link up with Herzog next time around.

Honesty note: I regard Yesh Atid and its leader very poorly I cannot find even one good thing to say about either them or their conduct. 


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on January 30, 2014, 02:28:58 AM
New poll, unsure by who:

18 [--] New Netanyahu Led Party

17 [20] Likud

16 [15] Labor

16 [12] Bayit Yehudi

11 [06] Meretz

10 [19] Yesh Atid

07 [07] Yahadut Hatorah/UTJ

05 [11] Yisrael Beitenu

05 [11] Shas

04 [06] Movement

04 [04] Hadash

04 [04] Ra’am-Ta’al

03 [03] Balad

00 [02] Kadima

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/176860#.Uun-mLS6obR

http://knessetjeremy.com/category/knesset/polls/


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on January 30, 2014, 07:32:58 AM
Also, who would break away with Netanyahu?

I'm guessing Rubi Rivlin and Tzachi Hanegbi would be the only sure bets. Maybe Yisrael Katz? Livnat???


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on January 30, 2014, 09:10:03 AM
Also, who would break away with Netanyahu?

I'm guessing Rubi Rivlin and Tzachi Hanegbi would be the only sure bets. Maybe Yisrael Katz? Livnat???
Rubi Rivlin?! I guess following Israeli politicas from afar is difficult. Rivlin loaths Netanyahu and is very very hawkish (though liberal sort of) no way will he break away from the Likud. If I have to wager who will break away I'll name: Hanegbi, Livnat, Steinitz, Gamliel, and Haim Katz. Arden\Shalom will break if the political gain will be very high.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on January 30, 2014, 11:09:45 AM
Is Bibi pulling a Sharon a serious possibility?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Vosem on January 30, 2014, 11:56:08 AM
From what I understand, I didn't think a full-on new Netanyahu party was a possibility -- I thought Netanyahu wanted to take himself and a few loyal defectors (like Gamliel/Steinitz) into Yisrael Beiteinu and crown Lieberman as his successor. I didn't think Netanyahu personally had the sort of appeal to personally create a new party and come in first, like that poll shows.

Also, who would break away with Netanyahu?

I'm guessing Rubi Rivlin and Tzachi Hanegbi would be the only sure bets. Maybe Yisrael Katz? Livnat???

Netanyahu strongly backed Rivlin being replaced with Edelstein as Knesset Speaker after the 2013 election.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on January 30, 2014, 03:42:31 PM
Is Bibi pulling a Sharon a serious possibility?

It's being seriously talked about.

I personally doubt it will happen.

Whatever peace deal Netanyahu ends up signing is going to be so historically insignificant it will hardly justify the energy on either the pro- or anti-Netanyahu side.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on January 31, 2014, 09:37:58 AM
What media exactly is controlled by the left? I'm hearing this myth over and over, Haaretz is a left-wing newspaper in a legitimate way (not hiding its opinions) and channel 10 are vaguely lefty. Bar for them (which are both smaller scale media outlets) the entire media is centre-right.
Yediot Ahronot-Channel 2 is a centrist media bloc supporting Yesh Atid and maybe the centre part of Labour nothing from the left there, Channel 1 is fringe right wing and recent years and Israel Hayom is the Likud herald (which is legitimate). Clearly this 'the Left control the media' is a myth.

Regarding the courts it's pretty much BS as well, the courts have some commitments to humans rights (as stated by Israeli law) but bottom line the courts are mainstream Zionist, and as a lawyer I can tell you the people with solid right wing\left wing opinions will most likely not be selected for judge positions. 95% of judges in Israel are in Likud-Labour spectrum. Anyone with legal knowledge and understand the left positions will tell you it's a fable that does not correspond with reality and the supreme courts actual verdicts.

Overall more BS from the right to nurture your myth of traitors from within.

I don't agree with a lot of what you wrote but don't really feel like getting in to all of it. Just to point out that what decides what is written has more to do with the individual journalists opinions and general media writing conventions than anything else. As it happens most journalists are on the left, so that is what you get. That is how you get people like Segal and Abramovich to both be on channel 2. their reporting looks very different, and their opinions whoever happens to own the news channel.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on January 31, 2014, 12:50:52 PM
What media exactly is controlled by the left? I'm hearing this myth over and over, Haaretz is a left-wing newspaper in a legitimate way (not hiding its opinions) and channel 10 are vaguely lefty. Bar for them (which are both smaller scale media outlets) the entire media is centre-right.
Yediot Ahronot-Channel 2 is a centrist media bloc supporting Yesh Atid and maybe the centre part of Labour nothing from the left there, Channel 1 is fringe right wing and recent years and Israel Hayom is the Likud herald (which is legitimate). Clearly this 'the Left control the media' is a myth.

Regarding the courts it's pretty much BS as well, the courts have some commitments to humans rights (as stated by Israeli law) but bottom line the courts are mainstream Zionist, and as a lawyer I can tell you the people with solid right wing\left wing opinions will most likely not be selected for judge positions. 95% of judges in Israel are in Likud-Labour spectrum. Anyone with legal knowledge and understand the left positions will tell you it's a fable that does not correspond with reality and the supreme courts actual verdicts.

Overall more BS from the right to nurture your myth of traitors from within.

I don't agree with a lot of what you wrote but don't really feel like getting in to all of it. Just to point out that what decides what is written has more to do with the individual journalists opinions and general media writing conventions than anything else. As it happens most journalists are on the left, so that is what you get. That is how you get people like Segal and Abramovich to both be on channel 2. their reporting looks very different, and their opinions whoever happens to own the news channel.
Firstly, I'm against calling every journalist pro two state solution a lefty, second of the editor has a lot of power that influences the individual writer (see what Sima Kadmon writes in Yediot compared to her honest beliefs) and due to the fact that bar Haaretz which properly states its opinions, in most pieces the headlines and the article itself are set according to the "spirit of the commander" ak the editor, hence the writer's opinion is pretty much insignificant.
Neither Yediot or Channel 2 could מםא be described lefty or left leaning even if you calculate the (exagharated) number of leftist reporters. pro 2 state is not enough to be labled left.It's a view shared by the centre and even parts of the right.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Sec. of State Superique on January 31, 2014, 12:58:29 PM
How many Likud MPs would support a two-state-plan? Would someone of Beitenu support it? What about Shas and UTJ would someone support it? I'm asking this because it's kind of difficult to say that there are rightists (although I would not call the Haredi parties actually right, social conservatives maybe) that support a two-state-solution.

Which MKs from the right would follow Netanyahu course of accepting a Palestinian State?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on April 11, 2014, 07:31:13 AM
Haaretz poll: (http://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politi/.premium-1.2294711)

Likud Beitenu: 37
Labour: 15
Jewish Home: 15
Yesh Atid: 14
Shas: 9
Meretz: 9
UTJ: 7
RAAM-TAAL: 5
Hadash: 4
Balad: 3
The Movement: 3


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on April 11, 2014, 10:38:13 AM
Knesset Channel poll from yesterday:
Likud Beitenu - 32
Labour 19
Yesh Atid - 13
JH - 13
Kachlon - 13
Meretz- 12
UTJ - 7
Shas -7
Hadash - 4


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on April 13, 2014, 12:14:00 PM
Not a poll but the extra-parliamentary Am Shalem (Whole Nation) party, which won 1.2% in the last election, merged with Likud. It previously looked like they were going to merge with The Jewish Home but their leader, former Shas MK Haim Amsalem, said The Jewish still took too hard a line on regulating conversions.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on April 14, 2014, 09:17:06 AM
Not a poll but the extra-parliamentary Am Shalem (Whole Nation) party, which won 1.2% in the last election, merged with Likud. It previously looked like they were going to merge with The Jewish Home but their leader, former Shas MK Haim Amsalem, said The Jewish still took too hard a line on regulating conversions.
Considering half of his voters were secular or even lefties who believed his BS about a moderate orthodox (oxymoron?) I think this has little impact.

Yediot Ahronot poll
1. Liberman and Bibi split and this includes the returning Kachlon-
Likud - 22
Labour - 16
JH - 11
Yesh Atid - 10
Liberman - 10
Meretz -10
Kachlon - 10
Shas  - 8
United arabic list - 8
UTJ - 7
Livni - 4
Hadash - 4

2. Liberman and Bibi remain united-
LB - 29
Labour - 16
JH - 12
Kachlon - 11
Yesh Atid - 10
Meretz - 10
Shas - 9
United Arabic parties - 8
UTJ - 7
Livni - 4
Hadash - 4

But this is Yediot after all, I have a strong reason to question their method of polling and the political bias that goes before we are presented with the results.



Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on May 05, 2014, 08:14:51 PM
There was a Ynet poll (http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4516016,00.html) concerning the lifestyles and opinions of different age groups, the relevant question for this forum being ideological affiliation:

<34:
Left (inc. far left, centre left): 22%
Centre: 20%
Right (inc. far right, centre right): 58%

34-50:
Left: 29%
Centre: 21%
Right: 50%

>50:
Left: 28%
Centre: 25%
Right 47%

Total:
Left: 27%
Centre: 22%
Right: 51%


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on July 03, 2014, 02:03:48 PM
Haven't done one of these in a while, new poll from the Knesset channel (http://www.news1.co.il/Archive/001-D-350713-00.html):

Likud Beitenu: 28
Labour: 20
Jewish Home: 18
Yesh Atid: 13
Meretz: 12
Shas: 7
UTJ: 7
Hadash: 4
RAAM-TAAL: 4
Balad: 3
Hatnua: 3


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on July 08, 2014, 08:04:41 AM
Liberman declares a break from Likud. Knesset poll accordingly:

Likud - 21, Labour -19, JH - 18, Liberman - 11, Lapid - 11, Meretz - 11, UTJ - 7, Shas - 6, Livni - 5, Hadash -4, Balad -4, Ra'am -3.

Interesting though surely inaccurate, I think Liberman will fall harder then that on his own.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Vosem on July 08, 2014, 07:20:36 PM
Interesting though surely inaccurate, I think Liberman will fall harder then that on his own.

Really? He won 15 seats on his own in 2009, and 11 as part of the alliance in 2013, and it's a longstanding rule in politics that adding two parties together you generally get less than you would had both run separately. What has Lieberman done since then that he can't expect such support?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on July 08, 2014, 08:32:29 PM
Nothing. That's what Liberman has done. He's done nothing and that's why he can expect to lose a lot of support. He has has lost most of his hawkish supporters to Jewish Home and most of his secular supporters to Yesh Atid.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on July 09, 2014, 08:47:33 AM
Interesting though surely inaccurate, I think Liberman will fall harder then that on his own.

Really? He won 15 seats on his own in 2009, and 11 as part of the alliance in 2013, and it's a longstanding rule in politics that adding two parties together you generally get less than you would had both run separately. What has Lieberman done since then that he can't expect such support?
I think that the 11 of LB were mostly on the back of Likud, he's done nothing the past few years and zigzag left and right. I think he will remain with a hardcore share of the Russian vote and a tad more secular right-wing nutters. Bennet's appeal is larger now especially with young voters and unhappy Likud members who will never vote for "that Russian"/


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on July 09, 2014, 08:45:45 PM
Likud now has 20 MKs and Yesh Atid has 19.

There is speculation that in his capacity as Foreign Minister, Lieberman will appoint Likud MK Carmel Shama-Hacohen (who actually only became an MK like a week ago, replacing Ruby Rivlin, who became President) as Ambassador to the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe. He would then be replaced by the next person on the Likud Betenyu list, who is from Yisrael Betenyu. That would mean Likud and Yesh Atid would be tied for 19 seats each.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on July 10, 2014, 05:27:17 AM
Likud now has 20 MKs and Yesh Atid has 19.

There is speculation that in his capacity as Foreign Minister, Lieberman will appoint Likud MK Carmel Shama-Hacohen (who actually only became an MK like a week ago, replacing Ruby Rivlin, who became President) as Ambassador to the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe. He would then be replaced by the next person on the Likud Betenyu list, who is from Yisrael Betenyu. That would mean Likud and Yesh Atid would be tied for 19 seats each.
He's going to be an ambassador for OECD* It was reported that he was already in Paris checking for schools for his children.
Add to this interesting situation Herzog attempts to get Livni to join in with him and that will bring him to 21 seats...


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on July 11, 2014, 12:22:36 PM
new poll (http://www.kikarhashabat.co.il/%D7%A1%D7%A7%D7%A8-%D7%94%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%A5-%D7%A9%D7%A1-%D7%99%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%93%D7%AA-%D7%9C-7-%D7%9E%D7%A0%D7%93%D7%98%D7%99%D7%9D.html) from Haaretz:

Likud: 25
Jewish Home: 16
Labour: 15
Yisrael Beitenu: 14
Yesh Atid: 13
Meretz: 10
Shas: 7
UTJ: 7
Livni: 4
"Arab parties": 9


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on July 12, 2014, 06:52:25 AM
new poll (http://www.kikarhashabat.co.il/%D7%A1%D7%A7%D7%A8-%D7%94%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%A5-%D7%A9%D7%A1-%D7%99%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%93%D7%AA-%D7%9C-7-%D7%9E%D7%A0%D7%93%D7%98%D7%99%D7%9D.html) from Haaretz:

Likud: 25
Jewish Home: 16
Labour: 15
Yisrael Beitenu: 14
Yesh Atid: 13
Meretz: 10
Shas: 7
UTJ: 7
Livni: 4
"Arab parties": 9
There's the "Kahloun" wild card still to play, and I hear whispers Herzog is scheming some schemes for due date as well. so as always Israeli polls mean nothing.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on July 17, 2014, 04:51:25 PM
Another poll (http://www.inn.co.il/News/News.aspx/280261) from the Knesset channel:

Likud: 24
Jewish Home: 19
Labour: 15
Yesh Atid: 11
Meretz: 10
Yisrael Beitenu: 8
UTJ: 7
Shas: 6
Kachlon: 6
Livni: 5
RAAM-TAAL: 3
Hadash: 3
Balad: 3


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: swl on July 25, 2014, 03:59:34 PM
For those who read the Israeli press in English, how would you define the political position of the Jerusalem Post? Which party is it the closest to? Or is mostly for readers in North-America rather than Israeli?

Also, what papers would supporters of Jewish Home usually read?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on July 25, 2014, 10:48:54 PM
Jewish Home supporters would read Makor Rishon, the National Religious newspaper.

Arutz Sheva (Channel 7) is the National Religious news channel, which also has a pretty extensive English language website.

You can tell their orientation because they both call the West Bank "Judea and Samaria" that's a right-wing shibboleth, just like if an American news source says "Democrat Party".

The Jerusalem Post is centrist to soft left. It was aligned with Labor and then Kadima. As there really isn't a left-wing opposition anymore it's kind of just floating around. It defends Netanyahu pretty hard against the right-wing of Likud but other than that is kind of generic, neo-liberal, two state solution supporter. I'm talking about their English coverage of course, I can't read Hebrew.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on July 28, 2014, 01:06:51 AM
Ariel Atias, one of the three leaders of Shas, resigned from the Knesset for no reason apparently.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on July 29, 2014, 05:08:42 PM
The leftiest English newspaper would be Times of Israel, Haaretz.com
I would call the Post centrist with a soft right tendency.

Regarding Makur Rishon, the elite/hardcore of the JH reads that the mass of voters probably read anything from Israel Hayum/Maariv/YH. By the way in an interesting twist of events Sheldon Edelson bought Makur Rishon recently and last week changed the entire board and editors.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on July 29, 2014, 09:57:27 PM
The leftiest English newspaper would be Times of Israel, Haaretz.com
I would call the Post centrist with a soft right tendency.

Regarding Makur Rishon, the elite/hardcore of the JH reads that the mass of voters probably read anything from Israel Hayum/Maariv/YH. By the way in an interesting twist of events Sheldon Edelson bought Makur Rishon recently and last week changed the entire board and editors.

Would it be far to say that people who were in the old NRP read Makur Rishon and most of the new supporters brought in by Bennett probably read Israel Hayum?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on July 30, 2014, 06:24:16 AM
The leftiest English newspaper would be Times of Israel, Haaretz.com
I would call the Post centrist with a soft right tendency.

Regarding Makur Rishon, the elite/hardcore of the JH reads that the mass of voters probably read anything from Israel Hayum/Maariv/YH. By the way in an interesting twist of events Sheldon Edelson bought Makur Rishon recently and last week changed the entire board and editors.

Would it be far to say that people who were in the old NRP read Makur Rishon and most of the new supporters brought in by Bennett probably read Israel Hayum?
To some degree, Tkuma people also read MR and Bennet himself comes from the heart of the old NRP not from the settlers elite. You will also find a large chunk of secular YH/Maariv readers amongst Bennet voters.
And I will also add 'Israel Hayum reader' is a pretty broad term. It is distributed for free on the train, buses, town centres so it's hard to  to have a strict range of readers (I read it on the train when I commute and I also have an Haaretz subscription), from lower middle class voters who read it as a prime media source I would say it's mostly Likud and some JH.
Makor Rishon was also not founded to be a masses paper, the idea was to create a right wing Haaretz (on the model of the frankfurt allgemein zeitung) hence it is less reachable for the everyday Joe without good formal education.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: swl on July 30, 2014, 09:07:22 AM
Thank you both for your answers. Thanks to its prestige, many foreigners (including me) opt for Haaretz when they want news from Israel, but unfortunately it's not really representative of the current mood in the country.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on July 31, 2014, 10:23:21 AM
New Knesset channel poll (http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/603/021.html?hp=1&cat=404&loc=5):

Likud: 30
Jewish Home: 18
Labour: 15
Yesh Atid: 10
Meretz: 10
Shas: 9
Yisrael Beitenu: 8
UTJ: 7
Hatnua: 4
RAAM TAAL: 3
Balad: 3
Hadash: 3

Do you think Hanin Zouabi's citizenship should be revoked?

Yes: 78% (it only lists the yes, I couldn't find how many said no/don't know).


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on August 01, 2014, 08:31:23 AM
New Knesset channel poll (http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/603/021.html?hp=1&cat=404&loc=5):

Likud: 30
Jewish Home: 18
Labour: 15
Yesh Atid: 10
Meretz: 10
Shas: 9
Yisrael Beitenu: 8
UTJ: 7
Hatnua: 4
RAAM TAAL: 3
Balad: 3
Hadash: 3

Do you think Hanin Zouabi's citizenship should be revoked?

Yes: 78% (it only lists the yes, I couldn't find how many said no/don't know).

War time polls are always right biased. I will wait for after the war we find out we lost 60+ troops for nothing, the blame game begins, and 2015 budget with the shock doctrine to pay for this war hits. I honestly think Bibi is done and dusted


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on August 01, 2014, 10:47:21 AM
New Knesset channel poll (http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/603/021.html?hp=1&cat=404&loc=5):

Likud: 30
Jewish Home: 18
Labour: 15
Yesh Atid: 10
Meretz: 10
Shas: 9
Yisrael Beitenu: 8
UTJ: 7
Hatnua: 4
RAAM TAAL: 3
Balad: 3
Hadash: 3

Do you think Hanin Zouabi's citizenship should be revoked?

Yes: 78% (it only lists the yes, I couldn't find how many said no/don't know).

War time polls are always right biased. I will wait for after the war we find out we lost 60+ troops for nothing, the blame game begins, and 2015 budget with the shock doctrine to pay for this war hits. I honestly think Bibi is done and dusted

If Bibi is done, who could possibly take over?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on August 02, 2014, 06:06:48 AM
New Knesset channel poll (http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/603/021.html?hp=1&cat=404&loc=5):

Likud: 30
Jewish Home: 18
Labour: 15
Yesh Atid: 10
Meretz: 10
Shas: 9
Yisrael Beitenu: 8
UTJ: 7
Hatnua: 4
RAAM TAAL: 3
Balad: 3
Hadash: 3

Do you think Hanin Zouabi's citizenship should be revoked?

Yes: 78% (it only lists the yes, I couldn't find how many said no/don't know).

War time polls are always right biased. I will wait for after the war we find out we lost 60+ troops for nothing, the blame game begins, and 2015 budget with the shock doctrine to pay for this war hits. I honestly think Bibi is done and dusted

If Bibi is done, who could possibly take over?
I think we will either see Herzog with a team of generals around him, or maybe someother new star (Diskin?) The right traditionally takes a term to regroup around a new leader


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on August 08, 2014, 12:01:15 AM
Channel 2 poll (http://knessetjeremy.com/2014/08/07/midgamchannel-2-poll-likud-23-bayit-yehudi-15-labor-14-yisrael-beitenu-12-yesh-atid-10-shas-8/):

Likud: 23
Jewish Home: 15
Labour: 14
Yisrael Beitenu: 12
Yesh Atid: 10
Shas: 8
UTJ: 7
RAAM-TAAL, BALAD: 7 (the poll assumes they will merge)
Kachlon: 7
Meretz: 6
Hatnua: 6
Hadash: 5


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on August 16, 2014, 11:22:16 PM
Another knesset channel poll:

Likud: 28
Jewish Home: 19
Labour: 15
Yesh Atid: 11
Meretz: 10
Yisrael Beitenu: 9
Shas: 7
UTJ: 7
Hatnua: 4
Hadash:4
RAAM-TAAL: 3
Balad: 3

Are you pleased with the conduct of Prime Minister Netanyahu during the  Cairo negotiations?
52% No
33% Yes

Should Israel cooperate with the UN inquiry commission?

Yes: 35%
no: 55%

Will the UN inquiry commission be fair or are the conclusions known ahead of time?

91% Conclusions leaning towards the Palestinians
2% Conclusions will be fair

Should Israel conduct direct negotiations with Hamas regarding the Gaza Strip?
69% No
21% Yes

Should Israel agree to ease the blockade on Gaza?
76% No, 18% Yes

Which candidate is most fit to be Prime Minister?
30% Prime Minister Netanyahu, 16% Economy Minister Bennett, 11% Oppositon Leader Herzog, 6% Foreign Minister Liberman, 6% Justice Minister Livni, 3% Defense Minister Yaalon, 3% Finance Minister Lapid. 25% – None of them.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on August 16, 2014, 11:52:13 PM
3% for Lapid is terrible for him. Does that mean basically all the people who support Yesh Atid in the party poll are Netanyahu supporters?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on August 17, 2014, 05:28:32 AM
3% for Lapid is terrible for him. Does that mean basically all the people who support Yesh Atid in the party poll are Netanyahu supporters?
No. some trend Likud and some Meretz or even JH (meretz gains are of YT voters not Labour which is interesting). But I think most people who said they would still vote YT will admit Lapid will be an incompetent leader. Too many slip ups, looks too fresh and not very bright, self-righteous.
The amount of hate he gets from the left is truly amazing (and by my account deserved), I don't recall a centre leader so despised by the left. People would really rather see Bibi reign then him. In the right they view him as a buffoon. 


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on August 28, 2014, 07:03:03 AM
2 new polls:

Knesset Channel (without the new 3.25% bar):
Likud - 27
JH - 19
Labour -15
Lapid - 12
Liberman - 9
Meretz - 9
Shas - 8
UTJ - 7
Livni - 4
Hadash - 4
Balad - 3
Ra'am - 3
Kadima - 0

Haaretz poll:
Likud - 26
JH - 17
Labour -14
Lapid - 12
Liberman - 11
UTJ - 8
Meretz - 7
Shas - 7
Hadash - 6
Livni - 4
Balad - 4
Ra'am - 4
Kadima - 0

Satisfied with the conduct of:
Bibi - satisfied 50% dissatisfied 41%
Boogi (MoD) - satisfied 55% dissatisfied 35%
Liberman - satisfied 29% dissatisfied 59%

Views on the outcome of the operatiom:
54% neither of the sides won
26% Israel won
16% Hamas won
4% don't know


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on September 08, 2014, 10:47:07 AM
Knesset channel poll:

Likud: 28
Jewish Home: 19
Labour: 15
Yeah Atid: 10
Yisrael Beitenu: 10
Meretz: 9
UTJ: 8
Shas: 7
Hatnua: 4
Hadash: 4
RAAM: 3
Balad: 3


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on September 09, 2014, 02:45:02 PM
What happened to Hatnuah anyway? I quite liked Livni and it's sad to see her languishing near threshold level.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on September 09, 2014, 08:13:31 PM
What happened to Hatnuah anyway? I quite liked Livni and it's sad to see her languishing near threshold level.

1 Yes Atid
2 Joining the Netanyahu government.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Vosem on September 09, 2014, 10:24:14 PM
If Livni wants to be in the next Knesset, she probably has to withdraw from the government prior to the elections, perhaps sometime next year. It worked for Labor, 2011-2013, and in a reverse example, Yisrael Beiteinu 2008-2009.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on September 09, 2014, 10:42:10 PM
Or she'll just merge with Labor.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Vosem on September 09, 2014, 10:56:41 PM

She can't do that if she's in the government and Labor's in the opposition...


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on September 15, 2014, 03:28:42 PM
New poll from channel 10:

Likud: 26
Bayit Yehudi: 16
Yisrael Beitenu: 14
Labor: 13
Shas: 10
Yesh Atid: 8
New Kachalon Party: 7
Yahadut Hatorah/UTJ: 6
Meretz: 5
Movement: 5
"Arab parties": 10


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on September 16, 2014, 10:58:40 AM
Important to note any poll right now is invalid. Can't poll Kahlon without knowing the shape of his party yet and no poll yet used the new threshold. I predict some mergers and quakes that will change the map a lot.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: politicus on September 16, 2014, 11:14:32 AM
Important to note any poll right now is invalid. Can't poll Kahlon without knowing the shape of his party yet and no poll yet used the new threshold. I predict some mergers and quakes that will change the map a lot.

Why did they choose such an odd number as 3,25%?


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on September 18, 2014, 09:22:39 AM
Important to note any poll right now is invalid. Can't poll Kahlon without knowing the shape of his party yet and no poll yet used the new threshold. I predict some mergers and quakes that will change the map a lot.

Why did they choose such an odd number as 3,25%?
I believe that It's a compromise.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on September 18, 2014, 09:24:16 AM
Important to note any poll right now is invalid. Can't poll Kahlon without knowing the shape of his party yet and no poll yet used the new threshold. I predict some mergers and quakes that will change the map a lot.

Polls only show how things are like when the poll is taken. Obviously there will be changes until the election.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on September 18, 2014, 09:25:46 AM
Important to note any poll right now is invalid. Can't poll Kahlon without knowing the shape of his party yet and no poll yet used the new threshold. I predict some mergers and quakes that will change the map a lot.

Why did they choose such an odd number as 3,25%?
Livni wanted 2.5 or 3% libermaan wanted 4% or to abolish democracy, and like a truly great Israeli legislation it ended with a bad compromise


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on September 18, 2014, 09:31:02 AM
A Knesset channel poll without Kachlon:

Likud: 25
Jewish Home: 20
Labour: 16
Yesh Atid: 12
Meretz: 9
Shas: 8
Yisrael Beitenu: 8
UTJ: 8
Hatnua: 4
Hadash: 4
RAAM: 3
Balad: 3


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on September 30, 2014, 07:04:00 AM
Minister of Internal Affairs and Likud number 2 Gideon Sa'ar has resigned the Knesset.

Rumor is, he is going to link up with former Likud MK Moshe Kahlon. Kahlor has been planning to set up his own party. The thing is though, Kahlon's gimmick is that he's economically "left-wing" and Sa'ar is a pretty generic conservative. Having him in the new party would take away its raison d'etre and pretty much make it just "Likud 2"

So that fact led to a new rumor, that Sa'ar and Kahlon are going to work together to topple Netanyahu as Likud leader.

Also worth noting, Netanyahu is planning to appoint Likud number 3 Gilad Erdan as ambassador to the UN.

If Sa'ar and Kahlon do end up forming their own party, it means Netanyahu will have basically gotten rid of anyone who could challenge him for leadership.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on September 30, 2014, 07:07:13 AM
Oh, and Sa'ar will be replaced in the Knesset by the next person on the Likud Beytenu list (even though Likud Beytenu doesn't exist anymore) who is a member of Yisrael Beytenu.

With that loss of a seat, Yesh Atid becomes the largest party in parliament.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Hnv1 on September 30, 2014, 11:29:06 AM
Minister of Internal Affairs and Likud number 2 Gideon Sa'ar has resigned the Knesset.

Rumor is, he is going to link up with former Likud MK Moshe Kahlon. Kahlor has been planning to set up his own party. The thing is though, Kahlon's gimmick is that he's economically "left-wing" and Sa'ar is a pretty generic conservative. Having him in the new party would take away its raison d'etre and pretty much make it just "Likud 2"

So that fact led to a new rumor, that Sa'ar and Kahlon are going to work together to topple Netanyahu as Likud leader.

Also worth noting, Netanyahu is planning to appoint Likud number 3 Gilad Erdan as ambassador to the UN.

If Sa'ar and Kahlon do end up forming their own party, it means Netanyahu will have basically gotten rid of anyone who could challenge him for leadership.
Can't see Sa'ar going to be a number 2 for Kahlon (Who I can't see how anyone would describe as left wing on economics). If anything there is a rumour Haaretz have some investigating report in the making on Sa'ar indecent conduct in a Tel Aviv bar (which makes sense as the rumours in the political swamp had ran on that for years).
Also I would add that Kadima was a Likud 2, and to a degree Yesh Atid is likud 2 in a way as well (more similarties with moderate likud than Labour as I see it).

regarding the seat count as I understood it Bibi will demand one of Liberman's minister resign from the knesset as well


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on October 03, 2014, 06:26:30 PM
Balad is trying to unite the Arab parties to overcome the new threshold. If it does happen, it looks like it will just be Balad and the UAL. Hadash will stay out of it. If it doesn't happen, Balad will probably boycott.


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: danny on October 23, 2014, 03:27:58 PM
new channel 10 poll:

Likud: 22
Jewish home: 17
Yesh Atid: 12
Labour: 12
Kachlon: 11
Yisrael Beitenu: 9
Meretz: 9
Shas: 8
UTJ: 7
Hadash: 5
Hatnua: 4
UAL-TAAL: 4


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: danny on October 30, 2014, 03:38:44 PM
Knesset channel poll:

Likud: 21
Jewish Home: 16
Labour: 15
Yesh Atid: 9
Yisrael Beitenu: 9
Meretz: 9
Kachlon: 9
UTJ: 8
Shas: 7
Hatnua: 5
Hadash: 5
RAAM TAAL: 4
Balad: 3


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 01, 2014, 07:00:53 PM
New Smith/Globes Poll: http://knessetjeremy.com/2014/10/31/smithglobes-poll-likud-24-bayit-yehudi-15-labor-14-yisrael-beitenu-10-yesh-atidkachlon-9-each/ (http://knessetjeremy.com/2014/10/31/smithglobes-poll-likud-24-bayit-yehudi-15-labor-14-yisrael-beitenu-10-yesh-atidkachlon-9-each/)
Likud- 24
Habayit Hayehudi- 15
Labor- 14
Yisrael Beitenu- 10
Yesh Atid- 9
Kachlon- 9
UTJ- 8
Meretz- 8
Shas- 7
Hadash- 5
Hatnuah- 4
Raam Taal- 4
Balad- 3

Any guess on if/when Kachlon makes the jump?


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: danny on November 01, 2014, 07:43:14 PM

Any guess on if/when Kachlon makes the jump?

He's definitely running. If you mean making a formal announcement and saying who he is running with, then he might wait until he knows when the election will happen.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 01, 2014, 08:55:35 PM
He seems to be drawing 50-50 from both center-left and right. He's definitely a right winger, but is there a possibility he might form a coalition with labor because economic issues (it's the main reason he's relevant, after all)


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: danny on November 01, 2014, 09:08:27 PM
He seems to be drawing 50-50 from both center-left and right. He's definitely a right winger, but is there a possibility he might form a coalition with labor because economic issues (it's the main reason he's relevant, after all)
He will probably be part of any coalition since there is no reason he can't be in a coalition with any particular party.  But with the current polls Labour isn't forming a government anyway, no one is forming a government with 14-16 seats while being the third largest party.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 01, 2014, 09:53:48 PM
I guess I'm asking the question. Since the Likud-Beitenu packed dissolved, if he were to get a large surge of support (a la Yesh Atid), and he got the largest number of seats (unlikely, but possible), would he want to ally with Labor or with Likud/YB/HH?


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on November 01, 2014, 10:07:25 PM
He would have to ally with the right because the left wouldn't have enough to put him over the top. They wouldn't even have enough to put him over the top before he took half of their votes away, so especially not after.

If you're asking who he would prefer to form a coalition with if the right and left blocs where 50/50 (which would never happen). Probably still the right. He was a Likud member for a long time. He even endorsed Likud after he resigned the Knesset.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: danny on November 02, 2014, 06:16:43 AM
I guess I'm asking the question. Since the Likud-Beitenu packed dissolved, if he were to get a large surge of support (a la Yesh Atid), and he got the largest number of seats (unlikely, but possible), would he want to ally with Labor or with Likud/YB/HH?
This is very hypothetical, but a party formed by Kachlon would have many possibilities, not just two.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 02, 2014, 05:59:55 PM
Yeah, I was thinking Shas/UTJ might join a coalition based on left-wing economics. Not sure about Yesh Atid (or if they're even still around).


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on November 02, 2014, 06:17:01 PM
Vote on Monday on easing the process of conversion to Judaism.

It will probably fail. Livni has said she will leave the government if it does although there's a chance she'll stay anyway.

There's also a small chance it will actually pass.

Netanyahu is likely secretly hoping it fails so that he can maintain good relations with Shas and UTJ for future coalitions.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: danny on November 02, 2014, 06:19:34 PM
That is one hypothetical option, but you can come up with 10 different reasonable options if you wanted to. Coalitions don't actually have to be based on anything in particular other than that those are the parties that want to be in the coalition and managed to come to agreeable terms for both sides, even if the terms are all about which ministries to control and money for the right sector.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: danny on November 02, 2014, 06:24:10 PM
Yeah, I was thinking Shas/UTJ might join a coalition based on left-wing economics. Not sure about Yesh Atid (or if they're even still around).
Yesh Atid are not left wing on economics,  but that wouldn't stop them from joining a government, joining Shas and UTJ  would be a problem though.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 03, 2014, 08:07:29 PM
New poll from NRG:
Likud: 21
Bayit Yehudi: 17
Labor: 15
Yesh Atid: 9
Yisrael Beitenu: 9
Meretz: 9
Shas: 8
UTJ: 8
Kahlon: 7
Hatnuah: 5
Hadash: 5
Raam-Taal: 4



Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Hnv1 on November 04, 2014, 04:34:20 PM
He seems to be drawing 50-50 from both center-left and right. He's definitely a right winger, but is there a possibility he might form a coalition with labor because economic issues (it's the main reason he's relevant, after all)
Kachlon is not left-wing on economics. far from that. He started his way in the old Liberal party and if you keep tabs on what he say he's proposing mainly Liberal reforms to reduce product prices not so much the new deal people on the left want. He's like Lapid on economics with a bit more intelligence.
The difference is that Lapid had some left wing members in his party for balance and no commitment to Likud, Kachlon will have none.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 04, 2014, 05:03:06 PM
Yeah I agree he isn't left wing on economics (neither was Lapid) but probably will try to appeal to that crowd by saying reform and cell phones over and over again.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on November 04, 2014, 10:58:39 PM
Kahlon isn't left-wing but he also seems not to hate poor people. He's kind of like an Israeli Rick Santorum minus the obsession with gays.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Hnv1 on November 05, 2014, 09:47:28 AM
it's the newspaper battle we should notice. Israel Hayom will surely support Bibi question is what will maariv, yediot, and haaretz do. and for that matter the economic papers (Globes, theMarker). Positive coverage is essential in Israel.
I think the new Maariv will support Liberman (fits their stance - right wing with no liking og Bibi). Yediot is a riddle ATM, their darlings Lapid and Livni don't seem to be able to lift themselves up and Herzog hadn't got enough appeal. Haaretz will again probably back Meretz whilst slandering it.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: danny on November 05, 2014, 11:43:45 AM
Yeah I agree he isn't left wing on economics (neither was Lapid) but probably will try to appeal to that crowd by saying reform and cell phones over and over again.

Most Israelis don't have a real concept of what Left wing or right wing means when it comes to economics. What they do think is a much more vague concept of helping the poor or the middle class or lowering the price of goods. He can do well on the former simply by talking about it, and on the latter because people remember him by how he lowered the the phone bill. No one cares about how left wing or right wing the cell phone reform was.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Silent Hunter on November 06, 2014, 06:46:48 AM
The ICC has said it will not prosecute Israel over the Gaza flotilla raid in 2010.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 10, 2014, 02:41:08 AM
So, Environment Minister Amir Peretz (Hatnuah) announces he's resigning, but will stay in the party and the government. Bibi effectively says "good riddance."
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.625442 (http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.625442)
Also, Science Minister Yaakov Peri (Yesh Atid) says Yesh Atid may have to "reevaluate" their position within the Knesset.

Likud Primaries are scheduled for December 25. Is this a sign of elections coming up?


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: danny on November 10, 2014, 07:16:35 AM
So, Environment Minister Amir Peretz (Hatnuah) announces he's resigning, but will stay in the party and the government. Bibi effectively says "good riddance."
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.625442 (http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.625442)
Also, Science Minister Yaakov Peri (Yesh Atid) says Yesh Atid may have to "reevaluate" their position within the Knesset.

Likud Primaries are scheduled for December 25. Is this a sign of elections coming up?
Yes, the rumours are that the elections will be for April-May of next year, certainly everyone is behaving as if it is a done deal.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on November 10, 2014, 09:07:58 PM
Leadership vote is now January 6th instead of December 25th. Only candidates so far are Netanyahu and Feiglin. Only other likely candidate is Danny Dannon. Dannon might make it second this time but obviously Netanyahu is a lock.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 10, 2014, 11:09:58 PM
You don't think with all hell breaking loose in Jerusalem they might kick Bibi out for someone even more far right?

Also, considering the bad blood between Dannon and Bibi, I assume the former endorses Feiglin if he doesn't go for it himself?


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: ○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└ on November 11, 2014, 03:10:45 AM
Tear down this wall, Netanyahu.

http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/palestinians-break-open-illegal-apartheid-wall-25-years-after-berlin-wall-fall


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 11, 2014, 03:49:43 AM
Wow, was I wrong, Dannon is trying for leadership.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.625791 (http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.625791)

What major differences, if any, are there between Dannon and Feiglin anyway? I get the feeling that Dannon is more secularist, while Feiglin is basically Bayit Yehudi's outpost in Likud. Anything else?


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: danny on November 11, 2014, 07:24:25 AM
Wow, was I wrong, Dannon is trying for leadership.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.625791 (http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.625791)

What major differences, if any, are there between Dannon and Feiglin anyway? I get the feeling that Dannon is more secularist, while Feiglin is basically Bayit Yehudi's outpost in Likud. Anything else?

Not at all, Dannon is closer to JH than Feiglin is. Dannon is a conventional very right wing. Feiglin is far more liberterian, he wants to privatise the school system and the land, would actually get rid of some of the religious laws and supports legalising marijuana.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on November 11, 2014, 02:25:41 PM
Wow, was I wrong, Dannon is trying for leadership.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.625791 (http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.625791)

What major differences, if any, are there between Dannon and Feiglin anyway? I get the feeling that Dannon is more secularist, while Feiglin is basically Bayit Yehudi's outpost in Likud. Anything else?

He's also for a volunteer army, correct? I read the Jewish Press and saw an article to that effect a while back.

Not at all, Dannon is closer to JH than Feiglin is. Dannon is a conventional very right wing. Feiglin is far more liberterian, he wants to privatise the school system and the land, would actually get rid of some of the religious laws and supports legalising marijuana.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: danny on November 11, 2014, 02:27:07 PM
Yes,  that too.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 11, 2014, 03:03:14 PM
Ah, okay thanks.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on November 11, 2014, 09:32:34 PM
Feiglin wanting a volunteer army goes along with him wanting to gut the defense budget in general. His idea is to use all the money that would have gone to defense spending to bribe Palestinians to leave the West Bank and Gaza.

Dannon wants to annex the West Bank and have the Arabs there be second class citizens. Feiglin wants to annex the West Bank and pay all the Arabs to leave.

It's debatable which of those positions is actually more right-wing. Generally though Dannon's, as it's less of a fantasy, is seen as more mainstream.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 13, 2014, 03:25:09 PM
New Knesset Channel poll:
Likud: 22
Bayit Yehudi: 17
Labor: 14
Yesh Atid: 10
Meretz: 9
Yisrael Beitenu: 8
Shas: 8
UTJ: 8
Kachlon: 7
Hadash: 5
Hatnuah: 4
Raam-Taal: 4
Balad: 4

So it seems that (thus far) the happenings in Jerusalem have not affected the electoral landscape at all.

One more thing: Since Bibi tends to underperform his polls, is it a legitimate possibility that we could see Bayit Yehudi with the largest faction? If so, what happens?


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on November 13, 2014, 03:44:45 PM
New Knesset Channel poll:
Likud: 22
Bayit Yehudi: 17
Labor: 14
Yesh Atid: 10
Meretz: 9
Yisrael Beitenu: 8
Shas: 8
UTJ: 8
Kachlon: 7
Hadash: 5
Hatnuah: 4
Raam-Taal: 4
Balad: 4

So it seems that (thus far) the happenings in Jerusalem have not affected the electoral landscape at all.

One more thing: Since Bibi tends to underperform his polls, is it a legitimate possibility that we could see Bayit Yehudi with the largest faction? If so, what happens?


I imagine that Bennett would get the chance to form a coalition, and Likud would agree to join. However, it may be harder for Bennett to pull the coalition together, and a few of the more moderate parties may balk. If he can't get the 61 together, then Bibi - likely the runner up - would get the chance and would probably be able to, keeping him in the PM slot despite his second-place finish for the second time.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: The Mikado on November 13, 2014, 03:53:29 PM
What kind of coalition could emerge from those poll numbers?

Likud + Jewish Home + Yisrael Beitenu + Kachlon's people = 54.  IIRC Shas and Jewish Home do not play well together, and Yesh Atid is a very poor fit for a coalition with Jewish Home.  Does Netanyahu invite in Labor?


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: danny on November 13, 2014, 03:59:16 PM

IIRC Shas and Jewish Home do not play well together, and Yesh Atid is a very poor fit for a coalition with Jewish Home.

Shas and JH would be fine together, and so would YA and JH, just like they are in a coalition right now. It's YA and Shas that wouldn't work.


Yes.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 13, 2014, 04:06:39 PM
Do both Shas and UTJ get invited in, or just Shas? Shas gets them to just 61-62 seats; no way Bibi forms a government that small.
More importantly, what does labor say?


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: danny on November 13, 2014, 04:11:02 PM
Do both Shas and UTJ get invited in, or just Shas? Shas gets them to just 61-62 seats; no way Bibi forms a government that small.

Any government that includes Shas is very likely to also include UTJ.

More importantly, what does labor say?

That's a much harder question, can't say right now.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on November 14, 2014, 03:19:17 PM
Yeah, I'm guessing that Bennett would make some social concessions to Yesh Atid, and Lapid would join despite their differences on territorial issues.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Hnv1 on November 14, 2014, 07:26:09 PM
New Knesset Channel poll:
Likud: 22
Bayit Yehudi: 17
Labor: 14
Yesh Atid: 10
Meretz: 9
Yisrael Beitenu: 8
Shas: 8
UTJ: 8
Kachlon: 7
Hadash: 5
Hatnuah: 4
Raam-Taal: 4
Balad: 4

So it seems that (thus far) the happenings in Jerusalem have not affected the electoral landscape at all.

One more thing: Since Bibi tends to underperform his polls, is it a legitimate possibility that we could see Bayit Yehudi with the largest faction? If so, what happens?

The law says that after the election all party leader go to the president and recommend who they think should form the government. In this case I don't think that part for Likud and maybe Shas\UTJ with enough cash anyother party will agree to sit in a JH government (Labour in no way and I think not even  YA). Even if Likud end up second largest in this case  I think everyone else will try to form  a different coalition ranging from Liberman to Meretz.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 14, 2014, 07:30:38 PM
Is there a reason Lieberman and Kachlon would not back Bennett?

Also, what is your take on the likelihood of a Bennett victory?


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on November 15, 2014, 01:34:21 AM
It's hard to imagine Bennett as prime minister. His tenure would either with him abandoning his entire platform or with the EU imposing an embargo.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Hnv1 on November 15, 2014, 04:05:00 AM
Is there a reason Lieberman and Kachlon would not back Bennett?

Also, what is your take on the likelihood of a Bennett victory?
doubt it, JH will no doubtly surge but if it will appear as if they might get the most votes I'm sure there will be tactical voting that will put another party at the top (probably Likud or one of the centre left).

Lieberman is craving the PM position, he wants to heir Bibi as the right wing leader and crowning Bennet won't help there. Regarding Kachlon, he is right wing but I think he will prefer a more legitemate centre coalition (no economic reforms when you're getting boycotted around the world).


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on November 15, 2014, 04:11:02 AM
I've seen a couple of articles about Lieberman become Prime Minister under a centrist government (presumably YB YA Labor, Linvi and Kahlon).

http://www.timesofisrael.com/fed-up-with-netanyahu-some-look-to-liberman/


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Hnv1 on November 15, 2014, 05:52:06 AM
I've seen a couple of articles about Lieberman become Prime Minister under a centrist government (presumably YB YA Labor, Linvi and Kahlon).

http://www.timesofisrael.com/fed-up-with-netanyahu-some-look-to-liberman/
there had been talks about an alternative coalition to boot Bibi out before or after the election. I assume they will include Liberman but as he is not the head of the largest party from the bloc nor will he be I can't see him becoming PM.



Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 15, 2014, 09:27:52 PM
Maagor Mochot Poll:

Likud: 25
Bayit Yehudi: 15
Yisrael Beitenu: 15
Labor: 14
Yesh Atid: 10
Shas: 7
UTJ: 7
Meretz: 7
Kachlon: 6
Hadash: 4
Hatnuah: 3
Raam Taal: 3
Balad: 3

Why is there such a difference between Maagor and Panels? Lieberman's result here is double what he's gotten in the last few Panels polls. Which of them is more accurate?


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 16, 2014, 07:59:33 PM
Apparently both Netanyahu and the center-left are trying to court the haredim to join a coalition with them.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.626814 (http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.626814)

Thing is, I don't think Netanyahu has the mandates to do this. Presumably if he sacks Lapid, Livni also leaves, and Likud, Beitenu, JH, Shas, and UTJ combined only have 61 seats. I can't see that working for Bibi, and Lieberman's animosity to the haredim has also grown.

I also don't see a Center-Left-Haredi coalition being any more viable than a Center-Left-Lieberman coalition.

Anyways it seems elections are a foregone conclusion:

Quote
Lapid has cut off all contact with coalition whip Zeev Elkin, and all attempts to advance the 2015 state budget have failed, political sources say, calling the impasse a deep crisis for Netanyahu’s government.
...
Speculation pervaded the Knesset on Sunday that Netanyahu would fire Lapid and Justice Minister Tzipi Livni (Hatnuah) and have ultra-Orthodox parties replace their parties in the coalition. Likud sources said Netanyahu wanted to end the partnership with Lapid but Lieberman’s distaste for the Haredi parties prevented this.




Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 17, 2014, 04:52:56 PM
New Poll (Midgam/Channel 10)
Likud- 22
Bayit Yehudi- 17
Yesh Atid- 14
Labor- 13
Yisrael Beiteinu- 9
Kachlon- 9
UTJ- 8
Meretz- 7
Shas- 6
Hatnuah- 4
Arab Parties- 11


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on November 18, 2014, 01:39:32 PM
Presumably everyone has seen the news today, but, anyway, not good.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: BaconBacon96 on November 18, 2014, 02:41:56 PM
Looks like they're edging closer and closer to the Third Intifada. Not good at all.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 18, 2014, 03:33:04 PM
Bibi invites everyone through Meretz to join his coalition.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.627238 (http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.627238)


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Vosem on November 18, 2014, 04:28:56 PM
So what exactly is the issue with the 2015 budget that it's so controversial a new election must be called?

(Have obviously seen today's news, but beyond general sadness there's little to be said about it).


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 18, 2014, 04:59:28 PM
One of the big things is that Lapid wants to institute a tax on medical vacations by foreigners. It's opposed by Lieberman because a lot of the foreigners who come to Israel for medical treatment are Russian, plus there's a major hospital they're planning to be built in Lieberman-favorable Ashdod.

There's also the VAT exemption for first time home buyers Lapid is trying to push through, and which is getting stalled by Bibi. Also an attempt to establish a little bit of transparency in the JNF.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Hnv1 on November 19, 2014, 08:16:38 AM
So what exactly is the issue with the 2015 budget that it's so controversial a new election must be called?

(Have obviously seen today's news, but beyond general sadness there's little to be said about it).
Well there will be a huge deficit in the 2016 because of the Gaza war. everyone understand this will be the last budget before the election. Lapid tries to move most of the problems to the 2016 budget (bad) but he's also trying to do some needed reforms in this one (good).
A reform to the health system to try to reverse the negative effects of private health care is being opposed by Liberman for said reasons.
The JNF, which has a huge budget not being monitored by anyone and is used for jobs for politicos (mainly by Lberman and the Likud), was suppose to give the state around a billion NIS in return for no actual reform or nationalisation. Not the best solution but at least something. The right for obvious reasons is trying to stop this.
Lapid has a plan for no VAT in the purchase of the first flat (which is opposed by well everyone from left to right), he is determined to pass it and he says that otherwise he's leaving the coalition. Bibi opposes this on economic reasons (I have to say I agree with him), Liberman is just a dirty politian, Bennet won't help pass it unless the 'Jewish state and nation act' is passed.

Meanwhile, a third intifada is starting to roll on the horizon. I think this government will survive for a bit longer but by midsummer  we'll see an election.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Silent Hunter on November 19, 2014, 09:07:54 AM
Looks like they're edging closer and closer to the Third Intifada. Not good at all.

If Hamas start launching rockets again, they're done; Israel will go full invasion of Gaza.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 19, 2014, 12:45:40 PM
Looks like they're edging closer and closer to the Third Intifada. Not good at all.

If Hamas start launching rockets again, they're done; Israel will go full invasion of Gaza.
I don't think this directly leads to rocket fire from Gaza. Unlike with the kidnappings, we a) know who did it and b) know they were lone wolves. There won't be any rounding up West Bank Hamas Operatives (unless Bibi goes full on insane)

hnv1, how much do you think this hurts the left?


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Hnv1 on November 19, 2014, 12:56:10 PM
Looks like they're edging closer and closer to the Third Intifada. Not good at all.

If Hamas start launching rockets again, they're done; Israel will go full invasion of Gaza.
I don't think this directly leads to rocket fire from Gaza. Unlike with the kidnappings, we a) know who did it and b) know they were lone wolves. There won't be any rounding up West Bank Hamas Operatives (unless Bibi goes full on insane)

hnv1, how much do you think this hurts the left?
define the left...Meretz will probably rise a bit. Labour on the other hand...Herzog is doing everything right but is still failing. If they get some Ex-generals to their ballot and Livni and such would be willing to be under his leadership they might score a fair result (around 20).
Diskin who flirted a bit with entering the game said he's out for this one, which is a bit of blow for Herzog who has no 'defence' angle on his list ATM.
It's an interesting situation, Bibi is very much unpopular as ever yet no one seems to be able to look like a valid candidate against him.

Regarding the Intifada. The second one saw a strong surge for the right (with understandable reasons at the time), but the third one looks like it will be more similar to the first one which tilted the balance a bit to the left. With the dynamics of a rolling intifada there's not much a PM can do to stop it or not look like he can't control it (like Barak). Bibi is in serious fear of losing his Mr security image. The question is who will challenge it? Bennet or someone from the centre?


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 19, 2014, 01:23:29 PM
So is Labor basically irrecoverable at this point?

Also, do you know if/where I could find a list of all Meretz officeholders at the local level in Israel? I was just curious in possibly making a map of it.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on November 19, 2014, 02:57:58 PM
So Gabi Ashkenazi is just a tease who will never actually run?


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 19, 2014, 04:28:50 PM
Considering the police just recommended that he stand trial 2 months ago, I don't think he's going anywhere/


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Fuzzybigfoot on November 20, 2014, 06:44:47 AM
You guys see this?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/20/world/middleeast/israel-demolishes-family-home-of-palestinian-driver-who-killed-2-pedestrians.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id&bicmst=1409232722000&bicmet=1419773522000&_r=1

Quote
JERUSALEM — As Israelis and Palestinians grappled on Wednesday with the new-old reality of spiraling violence, Israeli security forces revived a controversial antiterrorism policy, demolishing the East Jerusalem home of a Palestinian man who plowed his car into pedestrians last month, killing a baby and a young woman.

....

Mr. Shaloudy’s mother, Inas, said that border police officers arrived “in large numbers” at 1 a.m. and evacuated about 50 people from her five-story building and nearby structures. Huddled with the group in a protest tent, she said she heard an explosion at 4 a.m. and returned an hour later to find her apartment filled with broken glass, its inner walls destroyed, and those of her neighbors cracked.

....

Human rights groups have long condemned such demolitions as collective punishment banned by international law; the Geneva Conventions say an occupying power can destroy property only when it “is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations.”


Civilians are being punished for crimes committed by people who are already dead.  Disgusting.   



Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Silent Hunter on November 20, 2014, 08:44:30 AM
It could be argued that the family should have stopped him or shopped him, but that's something that needs to be proved in a court of law.

This situation is likely to get worse before it gets better.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 20, 2014, 12:13:05 PM
It's more Bibi trying to score points with the right than anything.
The security establishment has told him this is a dumb idea.

EDIT: New poll! (Knesset Channel)
20 Likud
19 Bayit Yehudi
13 Yesh Atid
13 Labor
9 Kachlon
8 Yisrael Beitenu
8 Meretz
8 UTJ
7 Shas
7 Ra’am-Ta’al & Balad
4 Movement
4 Hadash

Labor at 13 (!) and 1 madate between Likud and Bennett(!!!)


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: The Mikado on November 20, 2014, 03:19:32 PM
What would happen if Jewish Home and Likud tie in terms of the number of MKs they win?

Also, is Naftali Bennett for real or are his extremist plans a way to set up a negotiating position?  Annexing 70% of the West Bank and turning the completely-surrounded-by-Israel rump West Bank into a militarily-occupied Bantustan seems...bold.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 20, 2014, 03:29:52 PM
No, that's Bennett. Messianism does bad things to a person's brain.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 20, 2014, 08:10:00 PM
This is Geocartography, the Israeli Zogby, so take with a couple kilograms of salt.
27  Likud
19 Bayit Yehudi
17 Yisrael Beitenu
10 Labor
8 Yahadut Hatorah/UTJ
8 Kachlon Party
6 Yesh Atid
5 Shas
5 Meretz
5 Green Leaf
10 Arab Parties

At least I'm taking it with a couple kilograms of salt- otherwise the right wing would be sitting at 84 seats right now.



Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: danny on November 20, 2014, 08:11:46 PM
Geocartography is a joke pollster, don't treat it seriously.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 22, 2014, 03:34:38 PM
New poll! (From TRI)
Likud-27
Jewish Home-17
Labor-12
Yesh Atid-10
Shas-10
Yisrael Beiteinu- 8
UTJ- 8
Meretz- 8
Kachlon- 6
Hatnuah- 3
Arab Parties- 11

I don't see Likud that high or Labor that low, but everything else looks plausible


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Hnv1 on November 23, 2014, 02:44:52 PM
Government passed the 'Jewish Nation' act. on Wed. it goes to the knesset, by law all coalition members are obliged to vote yes. Lapid andd Livni announced they and their parties will oppose what will mean Bibi will have to fire them.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 23, 2014, 08:05:20 PM
If this is Elkin's bill, then no way it passes. With Livni and Lapid voting nay, Bibi would need to a) hold all Likud MKs (not guaranteed- Livnat abstained on the cabinet vote) and b) get all the Haredi MKs (even less likely).

Bibi must be confident that the elections will go his way if he's pulling off this stunt.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Hnv1 on November 24, 2014, 05:51:41 AM
If this is Elkin's bill, then no way it passes. With Livni and Lapid voting nay, Bibi would need to a) hold all Likud MKs (not guaranteed- Livnat abstained on the cabinet vote) and b) get all the Haredi MKs (even less likely).

Bibi must be confident that the elections will go his way if he's pulling off this stunt.
Haredi MKs don't usually vote on constitutional laws from what I recall.
If YA and Livni oppose the bill will fall with the aid of the opposition.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 24, 2014, 12:53:17 PM
Looks like the vote has been postponed by a week. Bibi getting cold feet.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.628223 (http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.628223)


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Famous Mortimer on November 25, 2014, 07:13:04 PM
If this is Elkin's bill, then no way it passes. With Livni and Lapid voting nay, Bibi would need to a) hold all Likud MKs (not guaranteed- Livnat abstained on the cabinet vote) and b) get all the Haredi MKs (even less likely).

Bibi must be confident that the elections will go his way if he's pulling off this stunt.
Haredi MKs don't usually vote on constitutional laws from what I recall.
If YA and Livni oppose the bill will fall with the aid of the opposition.

Shas would probably vote for it but not UTJ since UTJ is still opposed to Zionism as an ideology, I believe that's why they don't ever take positions in the cabinet (although they accept deputy positions).


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 26, 2014, 02:06:12 AM
If this is any indication, Shas would not look to kindly at it either:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.628501 (http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.628501)


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Hnv1 on November 26, 2014, 12:01:46 PM
If this is Elkin's bill, then no way it passes. With Livni and Lapid voting nay, Bibi would need to a) hold all Likud MKs (not guaranteed- Livnat abstained on the cabinet vote) and b) get all the Haredi MKs (even less likely).

Bibi must be confident that the elections will go his way if he's pulling off this stunt.
Haredi MKs don't usually vote on constitutional laws from what I recall.
If YA and Livni oppose the bill will fall with the aid of the opposition.

Shas would probably vote for it but not UTJ since UTJ is still opposed to Zionism as an ideology, I believe that's why they don't ever take positions in the cabinet (although they accept deputy positions).
Shas won't vote on a bill saying a Jewish state is nothing else then a religious Jewish state. and it doesn't matter 95% of their voters are for it

With the coming Likud elections and maybe general ones as well Bibi is really breaking to the right


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 27, 2014, 04:04:31 PM
2 new polls today:

Knesset Channel
Likud-23
Bayit-Yehudi-18
Labor-14
Yesh Atid-13
UTJ-8
Meretz-8
Beitenu-7
Shas-7
Raam-Taal/Balad-7
Kachlon-7
Hatnua-4
Hadash-4

Smith/Globes
Likud-23
Bayit Yehudi-16
Labor-15
Beiteinu- 11
Yesh Atid-10
Shas-10
Kachlon-9
Meretz-8
UTJ-7
Hadash-5
Raam-Taal-3
Balad-3

EDIT: Has anyone seen any polls on the Jewish State bill?


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 30, 2014, 12:58:30 PM
New Haaretz Poll:

Likud: 24
Bayit Yehudi: 16
Labor: 13
Kachlon: 12
Yesh Atid: 11
Beiteinu: 11
UTJ: 8
Shas: 6
Meretz: 6
Hadash: 5
Hatnuah: 4
Raam-Taal: 4


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Hnv1 on November 30, 2014, 05:31:21 PM
Regarding the Haaretz poll it was quite unique that it used the new threshold and it concluded undecided (29 seats according to it are up for grabs).

More from it:
Who is best fitted to be PM?
Bibi 35% (42% last poll); Herzog 17% (12%); Liberman 8% (11%); Lapid 7% (4%); Bennet 6% (11%); don't know 27% (20%).

Herzog is rising a bit and I think Labour are being under polled. If he plays his cards right he might be able to actually challange Bibi.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 30, 2014, 05:52:11 PM
Is most of Herzog's support coming from Meretz, or what?


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Hnv1 on December 01, 2014, 05:12:12 AM
Is most of Herzog's support coming from Meretz, or what?
The core is Meretz and Labour but I think he's getting a bit of a swing from the centre and Labour are having YA phase - they are circling 14 at the polls but come election day they will swing up like what happened to Lapid.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: MalaspinaGold on December 01, 2014, 07:17:12 PM
AAAAND Bibi calls snap elections.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.629512?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter (http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.629512?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Hnv1 on December 02, 2014, 01:01:16 PM
Bibi sacks Livni and Lapid. The Knesset will need to vote to dissolve and then an election will be held in 90-120 days


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: politicus on August 20, 2015, 09:43:49 AM
Still not seeing the point of getting a new thread, when this one is still so short. So reposting dead0mans post here:

Israeli tanker fuels Jordanian F16s on way to exercise in Nevada. (http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/why-are-jordanian-f-16s-suckling-gas-from-israeli-tanke-1723907568)
Quote
Although Israel and Jordan are security partners, having Jordanian F-16s ferried around the world by Israeli tanker aircraft, and alongside IAF F-15s, seems to indicate a new level of military cooperation operation between the two nations. This development comes shortly after the news that Israel has donated AH-1 Cobra attack helicopters to Jordan to be used for border security and against ISIS threats.

The inclusion of Jordanian Air Force F-16s in exercise Red Flag comes as the country’s air force is locked in an ongoing battle against ISIS in Syria and as many in Washington call for increased military support for their anti-ISIS campaign. Jordan relies on a force of second-hand F-16s, some of which are upgraded to Mid-Life Update standard. Still, a lack of targeting pods and precision guided munitions has hampered their efforts against ISIS. With Israel now retiring some of its older F-16 force, it will be interesting to see if some of those aircraft end up in Jordanian hands.
Good news.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Hnv1 on August 23, 2015, 12:45:28 PM
SCoJ declares the tenure of Litzman as Deputy Minister of Health with full ministerial power unconstitutional and orders a full time minister appointed in 60 days. UTJ will probably embrace this (according to some journalists) and for the first time they will have a minister in title.

Interesting developments out of this:
- Ashkenaz Haredi "anti-zionists" stance is slowly and steadily breaking with the extremist faction under Rabbi Oirbach forming a new party called Bnei Torah I expect with break away soon with lots of younger members of the community getting closer to Zionism and voting JH
- Bibi's plan of shipping Danon to the UN and appointing one of his trustees Begin\Hanegbi to a ministerial position is thwarted (unless the change they law again to allow the cabinet to expand)
- Lapid has a small victory here (his party is responsible for the appeal) sadly he's looking more like an opposition leader than Herzog
- Ehud Barak is making some noise lately, it's always important to notice what this snake is up to.


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: DavidB. on August 23, 2015, 01:15:00 PM
Thanks for the update (and lol @ Barak "the snake"). Israeli politics continue to be an annoying balagan.

I haven't seen any recent polls on parties' popularity. However, I've seen this New Wave poll from a few weeks ago:

Who do you think is most suitable to serve as Israeli Prime Minister?
39% Netanyahu
14% Herzog
13% Lapid
6% Kahlon
5% Lieberman
23% Don’t know

Should we keep fighting the Iran deal?
76% Yes
15% No
8% Don't know

Do you think US President Obama is concerned about Israeli interests?
73% Not concerned
20% Concerned
8% Don’t know


Title: Re: Israeli politics general thread
Post by: Hnv1 on August 23, 2015, 04:31:07 PM
I take Israeli polls with 7 tonnes of salt

Likud leadership:
Channel 10 claims Jerusalem mayor Nir Barket is considering a run for Likud leadership and had thousands enrolled to the likud. unlikely, Bibi doesn't seem to be set on leaving anytime soon, Barket is not that popular among Likud politicos and he will most likely just try to get himself high up on the Knesset list.

Labour leadersship:
still no news, Holdai is undecided, so is Ashkenazi (whom Lapid is wooing quite aggressively). Yechimovic might try to regain leadership, Cabel announced he respects Herzog's leadership and Margalit is waiting just around the corner for his day. Long time expected runned Yuval Diskin announced he's out of the political field for several years.

Meretz and JH had their leadership contests prior to the election and no other party have any interior democratic process 


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on August 30, 2015, 03:35:08 PM
I changed the title so that we wouldn't need a duplicate and to be more like the threads for the other countries.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on August 30, 2015, 03:37:47 PM
and to be more like the threads for the other countries.
That's so Israeli :D Next thing you know you guys wanna join the Champions League as well. Oh wait...


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on September 02, 2015, 02:46:29 PM
I take Israeli polls with 7 tonnes of salt

Well, you've got the Dead Sea, so there's plenty to go round. ;)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: politicus on September 02, 2015, 09:58:51 PM
UN report says Gaza could become "uninhabitable" in five years.

http://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2015/09/gaza-united-nations/403570/ (http://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2015/09/gaza-united-nations/403570/)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: dead0man on September 03, 2015, 05:41:56 AM
Yeah, but their tunnels are even better this time.  Meanwhile, 37,000 tons of concrete sits in a warehouse, about to expire.  Like 95% of Gaza's problems, Hamas is the root, but like 95% of Gaza's problems, useful idiots in the west will blame Israel.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: politicus on September 03, 2015, 06:03:03 AM
Yeah, but their tunnels are even better this time.  Meanwhile, 37,000 tons of concrete sits in a warehouse, about to expire.  Like 95% of Gaza's problems, Hamas is the root, but like 95% of Gaza's problems, useful idiots in the west will blame Israel.

No matter who is to blame a total collapse of Gaza will have serious consequences. People will have to go somewhere - either Egypt, Israel or - if blocked by their neighbours - they will try to reach Europe. So this is another refugee time bomb waiting to happen.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on September 03, 2015, 07:07:48 AM
Amongst everything else it is a rare contemporary example of actual overpopulation.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on September 03, 2015, 07:24:58 AM
In this case, I think Europe loves them so much, they should have them all - just to see how sweet these people are. If you love someone you don't let them go, right? :) Ireland, Sweden, Belgium, Norway, and the UK should take the most. Would be a perfect solution.

On a more serious note, yes, I agree with Sibboleth that overpopulation in Gaza is a real thing and something should be done about it. Not sure if I buy the conclusions of the UN report though: given that this is the UN, it might also be just another political ploy to force Israel to stop the blockade.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on September 03, 2015, 12:03:12 PM
Yeah, but their tunnels are even better this time.  Meanwhile, 37,000 tons of concrete sits in a warehouse, about to expire.  Like 95% of Gaza's problems, Hamas is the root, but like 95% of Gaza's problems, useful idiots in the west will blame Israel.

No matter who is to blame a total collapse of Gaza will have serious consequences. People will have to go somewhere - either Egypt, Israel or - if blocked by their neighbours - they will try to reach Europe. So this is another refugee time bomb waiting to happen.
They'll be swarming the Israeli fence, a true leadership would have understood the necessity in Gaza's redevelopment and allowed for a port to be formed. And lets not forget Sisi's proposal to give away some Egyptian swathes of territory to tackle this problem but current Israeli leadership is busy fighting Obama at congress


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: politicus on September 03, 2015, 12:15:44 PM
Yeah, but their tunnels are even better this time.  Meanwhile, 37,000 tons of concrete sits in a warehouse, about to expire.  Like 95% of Gaza's problems, Hamas is the root, but like 95% of Gaza's problems, useful idiots in the west will blame Israel.

No matter who is to blame a total collapse of Gaza will have serious consequences. People will have to go somewhere - either Egypt, Israel or - if blocked by their neighbours - they will try to reach Europe. So this is another refugee time bomb waiting to happen.
They'll be swarming the Israeli fence, a true leadership would have understood the necessity in Gaza's redevelopment and allowed for a port to be formed. And lets not forget Sisi's proposal to give away some Egyptian swathes of territory to tackle this problem but current Israeli leadership is busy fighting Obama at congress

It is rare for a leader to offer to cede territory voluntarily. How much was he willing to give away?



Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on September 03, 2015, 01:09:35 PM
Yeah, but their tunnels are even better this time.  Meanwhile, 37,000 tons of concrete sits in a warehouse, about to expire.  Like 95% of Gaza's problems, Hamas is the root, but like 95% of Gaza's problems, useful idiots in the west will blame Israel.

No matter who is to blame a total collapse of Gaza will have serious consequences. People will have to go somewhere - either Egypt, Israel or - if blocked by their neighbours - they will try to reach Europe. So this is another refugee time bomb waiting to happen.
They'll be swarming the Israeli fence, a true leadership would have understood the necessity in Gaza's redevelopment and allowed for a port to be formed. And lets not forget Sisi's proposal to give away some Egyptian swathes of territory to tackle this problem but current Israeli leadership is busy fighting Obama at congress

It is rare for a leader to offer to cede territory voluntarily. How much was he willing to give away?


The exact scope was unclear (or just hadn't been published) but that ship had sailed they have new plans for Egyptian Rafih area


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on September 03, 2015, 01:32:23 PM
To be honest, I don't think there's going to be any serious moves towards a peace settlement until the current Israeli PM leaves the political scene.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on September 03, 2015, 01:56:15 PM
To be honest, I don't think there's going to be any serious moves towards a peace settlement until the current Israeli PM leaves the political scene.
Israeli society has shifted to the right, it's not just a Netanyahu thing. I would bet a lot of money that the next Likud leader will be further to the right (with regard to the conflict) than Netanyahu.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Comrade Funk on September 03, 2015, 03:27:42 PM
To be honest, I don't think there's going to be any serious moves towards a peace settlement until the current Israeli PM leaves the political scene.
Israeli society has shifted to the right, it's not just a Netanyahu thing. I would bet a lot of money that the next Likud leader will be further to the right (with regard to the conflict) than Netanyahu.
Then Israel will lose all the international legitimacy it has left. No one left to blame if they keep this up and move to the right.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on September 03, 2015, 03:33:13 PM
To be honest, I don't think there's going to be any serious moves towards a peace settlement until the current Israeli PM leaves the political scene.
Israeli society has shifted to the right, it's not just a Netanyahu thing. I would bet a lot of money that the next Likud leader will be further to the right (with regard to the conflict) than Netanyahu.
Then Israel will lose all the international legitimacy it has left. No one left to blame if they keep this up and move to the right.
See if they care. The world has failed us so many times, yet we're still here and we'll stay.

But let's not have that normative debate, as my statement regarding Israel's shift to the right was merely descriptive.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: dead0man on September 03, 2015, 04:51:46 PM
BDS gets another win!

SodaStream leaves West Bank (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/03/sodastream-leaves-west-bank-as-ceo-says-boycott-antisemitic-and-pointless)
Quote
Ali Jafar, a shift manager from a West Bank village who has worked for SodaStream for two years, said: “All the people who wanted to close [SodaStream’s West Bank factory] are mistaken. … They didn’t take into consideration the families.”

“SodaStream should have been encouraged in the West Bank if [the BDS movement] truly cared about the Palestinian people,” Birnbaum said.

Palestinians, like other employees, are offered a bus service that brings them to the factory but that will now become a two-hour journey each way that involves crossing an Israeli checkpoint, where workers must show permits and be screened for security checks.

The BDS movement wants to end Israel’s occupation of territories captured in the 1967 war, end discrimination against Arab citizens of Israel and promote the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to family properties lost in the war surrounding Israel’s creation in 1948. Israel says the Palestinian “right of return” would lead to a massive influx of refugees that would mean the end of the country as a Jewish state.

For the BDS movement, SodaStream’s pullout from the West Bank was part of a domino effect that would see more companies sever interests to spare their bottom line. “This is a clear-cut BDS victory against an odiously complicit Israeli company,” said Omar Barghouti, a co-founder of the movement. He said it would continue to target SodaStream because its new factory is located in an area where Israel has in the past proposed to resettle Bedouin Arabs. The company employs more than 300 Bedouins.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on September 03, 2015, 05:38:07 PM
To be honest, I don't think there's going to be any serious moves towards a peace settlement until the current Israeli PM leaves the political scene.

It has as much to do with the next US President as it does with the next Israeli PM. I don't think Netanyahu is willing to negotiate with Obama at the table anymore.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on September 04, 2015, 07:54:59 AM
To be honest, I don't think there's going to be any serious moves towards a peace settlement until the current Israeli PM leaves the political scene.
Israeli society has shifted to the right, it's not just a Netanyahu thing. I would bet a lot of money that the next Likud leader will be further to the right (with regard to the conflict) than Netanyahu.
True, more accurately religion is a bigger part for larger swathes of Israeli society. But I would note that despite this shift to the right a majority of Israelis would still support a viable 2 state solution.

regarding the forecast for the future, I don't think someone to the right of Bibi could be elected (he wouldn't be able to form a coalition), I think some centre figure with a strong emphasis on Jewish identity would win - a form of soft Bibi sadly I think this man is Lapid


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Angel of Death on September 06, 2015, 06:58:39 PM
The mother in the Duma arson attack succumbed to her wounds.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on September 08, 2015, 12:53:15 PM
since the issue of Syrian refugees has come up, a poll has been done about with very definitive results (http://news.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=1147199&sid=126):

Do you support or oppose accepting refugees in Israel?

Oppose: 80%
Support: 11%
Don't know: 9%

Bibi is definitely with most Israelis on this issue.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Vosem on September 08, 2015, 09:08:09 PM
After Danon's resignation and replacement by Canadian-born Sharren Haskel, 2 more members of the Knesset have resigned: Shai Piron of Yesh Atid, who was Minister of Education under the Likud-YA coalition, who will be replaced by former Hatnuah MK Elazar Stern, and Sharon (in fact a guy) Gal, a newly-elected MK from Yisrael Beiteinu, who will return to his career in journalism; he is replaced by Oded Forer, a former bureaucrat from the Ministry of Immigrant Absorption.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on September 09, 2015, 12:31:39 AM
Good. Sharon Gal is a twerp and obnoxious (much like Yisrael Beiteinu as a whole, I guess, but I digress).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on September 09, 2015, 12:33:46 AM
since the issue of Syrian refugees has come up, a poll has been done about with very definitive results (http://news.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=1147199&sid=126):

Do you support or oppose accepting refugees in Israel?

Oppose: 80%
Support: 11%
Don't know: 9%

Bibi is definitely with most Israelis on this issue.

Good. very glad to see most Israelis are sensible on this.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Intell on September 09, 2015, 03:56:16 AM
since the issue of Syrian refugees has come up, a poll has been done about with very definitive results (http://news.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=1147199&sid=126):

Do you support or oppose accepting refugees in Israel?

Oppose: 80%
Support: 11%
Don't know: 9%


Bibi is definitely with most Israelis on this issue.

Good. very glad to see most Israelis are sensible on this.

Sane! Not accepting war-torn refugees is the f*king sane person.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Dan the Roman on September 09, 2015, 07:04:03 AM
since the issue of Syrian refugees has come up, a poll has been done about with very definitive results (http://news.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=1147199&sid=126):

Do you support or oppose accepting refugees in Israel?

Oppose: 80%
Support: 11%
Don't know: 9%


Bibi is definitely with most Israelis on this issue.

Good. very glad to see most Israelis are sensible on this.

Sane! Not accepting war-torn refugees is the f*king sane person.

Not accepting them in Israel almost certainly is. Decisions don't occur in moral vacuums distinct from reality. An employee of Wal-Mart is not evil because he fails to donate $100,000 to help a Syrian family or any less moral than a billionaire.

That said, Israel should probably donate to help resettle the refugees elsewhere.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Intell on September 09, 2015, 07:29:14 AM
since the issue of Syrian refugees has come up, a poll has been done about with very definitive results (http://news.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=1147199&sid=126):

Do you support or oppose accepting refugees in Israel?

Oppose: 80%
Support: 11%
Don't know: 9%


Bibi is definitely with most Israelis on this issue.

Good. very glad to see most Israelis are sensible on this.

Sane! Not accepting war-torn refugees is the f*king sane person.

Not accepting them in Israel almost certainly is. Decisions don't occur in moral vacuums distinct from reality. An employee of Wal-Mart is not evil because he fails to donate $100,000 to help a Syrian family or any less moral than a billionaire.

That said, Israel should probably donate to help resettle the refugees elsewhere.
'

How does Isreal, as well as other countries, get a pass for not taking in refugees. Especially Isreal, which gets the coddlement of the US and most western countries, and the highest military aid from the US, get the pass of not taking the humane position of taking in refugees


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Dan the Roman on September 09, 2015, 07:37:37 AM
since the issue of Syrian refugees has come up, a poll has been done about with very definitive results (http://news.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=1147199&sid=126):

Do you support or oppose accepting refugees in Israel?

Oppose: 80%
Support: 11%
Don't know: 9%


Bibi is definitely with most Israelis on this issue.

Good. very glad to see most Israelis are sensible on this.

Sane! Not accepting war-torn refugees is the f*king sane person.

Not accepting them in Israel almost certainly is. Decisions don't occur in moral vacuums distinct from reality. An employee of Wal-Mart is not evil because he fails to donate $100,000 to help a Syrian family or any less moral than a billionaire.

That said, Israel should probably donate to help resettle the refugees elsewhere.
'

How does Isreal, as well as other countries, get a pass for not taking in refugees. Especially Isreal, which gets the coddlement of the US and most western countries, and the highest military aid from the US, get the pass of not taking the humane position of taking in refugees

Because such obligations do not arise in a vacuum. Belgium probably should be expected to take in as many as the US, which is far larger. Furthermore, national security is a legitimate national interest. Latvia might have a legislate reason why it would not want to take in hundreds of thousands of Russian refugees.

Any sane person looking at this objectively would see why Israel, a country that has its own political conflicts based on demographics, would not want to take in a large population of people who have spent their entire lives in a regime based around advocating the murder of Jews and of Israel's population. The only reason someone would be demanding this as some sort of intellectually dishonest stick to beat Israel over, as an excuse to bring up their objections to Israel existing as it is. If you think Israel should not exist, fine, say so out-loud, but don't pretend to hide behind a humanitarian duty to refugees to do it.

Nation's exist to protect their populations. There is never a moral obligation for a nation to commit suicide.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: ag on September 09, 2015, 12:18:06 PM
since the issue of Syrian refugees has come up, a poll has been done about with very definitive results (http://news.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=1147199&sid=126):

Do you support or oppose accepting refugees in Israel?

Oppose: 80%
Support: 11%
Don't know: 9%


Bibi is definitely with most Israelis on this issue.

Good. very glad to see most Israelis are sensible on this.

Sane! Not accepting war-torn refugees is the f*king sane person.

Not accepting them in Israel almost certainly is. Decisions don't occur in moral vacuums distinct from reality. An employee of Wal-Mart is not evil because he fails to donate $100,000 to help a Syrian family or any less moral than a billionaire.

That said, Israel should probably donate to help resettle the refugees elsewhere.
'

How does Isreal, as well as other countries, get a pass for not taking in refugees. Especially Isreal, which gets the coddlement of the US and most western countries, and the highest military aid from the US, get the pass of not taking the humane position of taking in refugees

Israel is at war with Syria. So, I guess, it could be validly claimed to be a special case.

Now, the much more serious issue is that the situation highlights the need for a Palestinian state. At the very elast, there are hundreds of thousands of people of Palestinian origin in Syria who would have been happily accepted into Palestine - if a Palestinian government would be free to make such a decision. That is even without considering the fact that Palestine may have accepted Syrians as refugees as well.

I would give Israelis the pass on accomodating refugees inside Israel proper. But what should be requested is Israel letting PA to admit, at the very least, Palestinian refugees from Syria and Iraq. And, of course, PA should be helped accomodating the resettlement - I am sure even Danes would be quite happy to pay their share for this :)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: ingemann on September 09, 2015, 04:03:39 PM
since the issue of Syrian refugees has come up, a poll has been done about with very definitive results (http://news.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=1147199&sid=126):

Do you support or oppose accepting refugees in Israel?

Oppose: 80%
Support: 11%
Don't know: 9%


Bibi is definitely with most Israelis on this issue.

Good. very glad to see most Israelis are sensible on this.

Sane! Not accepting war-torn refugees is the f*king sane person.

Not accepting them in Israel almost certainly is. Decisions don't occur in moral vacuums distinct from reality. An employee of Wal-Mart is not evil because he fails to donate $100,000 to help a Syrian family or any less moral than a billionaire.

That said, Israel should probably donate to help resettle the refugees elsewhere.
'

How does Isreal, as well as other countries, get a pass for not taking in refugees. Especially Isreal, which gets the coddlement of the US and most western countries, and the highest military aid from the US, get the pass of not taking the humane position of taking in refugees

Israel is at war with Syria. So, I guess, it could be validly claimed to be a special case.

Now, the much more serious issue is that the situation highlights the need for a Palestinian state. At the very elast, there are hundreds of thousands of people of Palestinian origin in Syria who would have been happily accepted into Palestine - if a Palestinian government would be free to make such a decision. That is even without considering the fact that Palestine may have accepted Syrians as refugees as well.

I would give Israelis the pass on accomodating refugees inside Israel proper. But what should be requested is Israel letting PA to admit, at the very least, Palestinian refugees from Syria and Iraq. And, of course, PA should be helped accomodating the resettlement - I am sure even Danes would be quite happy to pay their share for this :)

I don't care to pay for the illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, if Israel want to keep its two puppet regimes of Quislings in place, they can pay for itself.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: ag on September 09, 2015, 05:10:49 PM
You would be paying for ending Israeli occupation, not for prolonging it. Extra half a million Palestinians in the West Bank makes it so much less likely for Israel to keep the land.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on September 09, 2015, 07:17:00 PM
... which is exactly why Israel is right in not accepting these Syrians from entering Eretz Yisrael.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: ingemann on September 10, 2015, 08:51:40 AM
You would be paying for ending Israeli occupation, not for prolonging it. Extra half a million Palestinians in the West Bank makes it so much less likely for Israel to keep the land.

That was how they suckered us into funding their Bantustans the last time, and now the peace process (no matter how much of a zombie it is by now) and the Palestinians are kept as hostages to keep us funding them.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on September 11, 2015, 01:40:48 PM
Holdai (Tel Aviv mayor) is warming up on the sideline, earlier this week he sent a letter to Labour members and Herzog urging him to hold the leadership elections soon. Amir Peretz returned (Again) to Labour while rumours are he's planning to return to his old seat as head of the Histadrut. Most of the "PLP" is pro-Herzog even the former Yechimovic majordomo Michal Biran is supporting him. Unless Ashkenazi runs I can't see any of the current pretenders beating him.

Their party convention is happening next week and I smell there will be more to it than electing a new head to the JNF


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on September 11, 2015, 10:27:07 PM
Is Yachimovich looking unlikely to run herself?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on September 12, 2015, 06:15:56 AM
Is Yachimovich looking unlikely to run herself?
Ambiguous about her intentions, but I think she's will be dumb to do so


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on October 07, 2015, 03:57:55 PM
So a small scale intifida is rolling since last week with the focal point of tension being as always around the Old Town of Jerusalem. riots spread across the west bank and even in some Israeli-Arab settlements. Government moves so far: increased use of house demolition and administrative arrests; limiting Muslim access to the temple mount; banning Israeli politicians from entering the mount complex. I'll reserve my judgement on the situation for now.

Politically: Bibi has been attracting fire from the right with members of his cabinet taking part in anti-government protests (I know absurd) demanding firm hand. Abbas speech at the UN is raising concerns among the security establishment regarding the future coordination with the PA (and its very existence); Herzog is proving yet again that he is no PM material.

All things considered I see a very "warm" summer starting next may (no one likes winter wars and conflicts in the ME)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Comrade Funk on October 08, 2015, 10:26:03 AM
Anyone going to challenge Herzog. He can't win imo.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on October 08, 2015, 11:30:51 AM
Anyone going to challenge Herzog. He can't win imo.
This is the Labour party, of course he will be challenged. Huldai seems almost certain, but there may be others.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on October 09, 2015, 01:08:36 PM
All things considered I see a very "warm" summer starting next may (no one likes winter wars and conflicts in the ME)
They might not like them but there's no evidence that anyone tries to avoid them.  If anything, it seems to be the reverse.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on October 20, 2015, 04:49:25 AM
We have a change in the Knesset, Daniel Atar was chosen as the next head of the Jewish National Fund, and will be replaced by Yael Cohen Paran.

 Yael comes originally from the Green Movement, which unsuccessfully ran on its own in 2009, in 2013 it ran with Livni's Hatnuah with a representative of the party placed at number 13 (Hatnuah ended up with just 6 seats). In 2015 Yael was the representative of The Green Movement in Livnis party, which then merged with Labour to form the Zionist Union. Yael was placed at number 25 but the Zionist Union only got 24 seats, so she was left out until now.

Yael will presumably focus on environmental issues as that has always been what she dealt with so far. She was at one point the leader of the anti road 6 movement (which thankfully lost, road 6 is great).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on October 20, 2015, 12:41:23 PM
We have a change in the Knesset, Daniel Atar was chosen as the next head of the Jewish National Fund, and will be replaced by Yael Cohen Paran.

 Yael comes originally from the Green Movement, which unsuccessfully ran on its own in 2009, in 2013 it ran with Livni's Hatnuah with a representative of the party placed at number 13 (Hatnuah ended up with just 6 seats). In 2015 Yael was the representative of The Green Movement in Livnis party, which then merged with Labour to form the Zionist Union. Yael was placed at number 25 but the Zionist Union only got 24 seats, so she was left out until now.

Yael will presumably focus on environmental issues as that has always been what she dealt with so far. She was at one point the leader of the anti road 6 movement (which thankfully lost, road 6 is great).
1. Kakal is not identical with the JNF, it's two separate legal bodies with affinity (a bit of an elaborate legal construction) so chairman of Israel-based JNF is better suited.
2. Good and bad. Good: Atar is a out of the Knesset, he's a little corrupt politico of local government from the right section of Labour. Bad: Atar will maintain the JNF's corruption and misconduct (he won Biton, a reformer)
3. Yael, despite her opposition to highway 6, will be an excellent addition to the house

Part for Livni and Hasson the rest of the lot are natural for Labour and even Meretz. Peretz left back for Labour and rumours he might try to regain leadership


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Green Line on November 04, 2015, 04:45:19 PM
http://www.timesofisrael.com/sudanese-attacks-israeli-on-ethiopian-airlines-flight/

An Israeli citizen was attacked by a Sudanese Muslim on a flight after he learned the man was Jewish.  There doesn't seem to be much outrage or concern from the world at these attacks.  I can only imagine what the reaction would be if the roles were reversed.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on November 04, 2015, 04:54:28 PM
http://www.timesofisrael.com/sudanese-attacks-israeli-on-ethiopian-airlines-flight/

An Israeli citizen was attacked by a Sudanese Muslim on a flight after he learned the man was Jewish.  There doesn't seem to be much outrage or concern from the world at these attacks.  I can only imagine what the reaction would be if the roles were reversed.

There was also a stabbing in Crown Heights of a Jewish man last night, and another Jewish man was assaulted nearby the same night. There was briefly a thread on it last night, but it deteriorated with incredible speed and was deleted.

No certainty as to connections there, but an ugly picture of the world right now when it comes to Jewish safety is certainly emerging.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on November 04, 2015, 07:23:29 PM
http://www.timesofisrael.com/sudanese-attacks-israeli-on-ethiopian-airlines-flight/

An Israeli citizen was attacked by a Sudanese Muslim on a flight after he learned the man was Jewish.  There doesn't seem to be much outrage or concern from the world at these attacks.  I can only imagine what the reaction would be if the roles were reversed.

I know anti-Semites are stupid but hating Jews and moving to Israel is pretty stupid even for a racist.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on November 04, 2015, 07:28:15 PM
http://www.timesofisrael.com/sudanese-attacks-israeli-on-ethiopian-airlines-flight/

An Israeli citizen was attacked by a Sudanese Muslim on a flight after he learned the man was Jewish.  There doesn't seem to be much outrage or concern from the world at these attacks.  I can only imagine what the reaction would be if the roles were reversed.

I know anti-Semites are stupid but hating Jews and moving to Israel is pretty stupid even for a racist.

I'm not sure what this response has to do with story, the attacker was Sudanese and the flight was between Chad and Ethiopia.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on November 04, 2015, 07:33:52 PM
http://www.timesofisrael.com/sudanese-attacks-israeli-on-ethiopian-airlines-flight/

An Israeli citizen was attacked by a Sudanese Muslim on a flight after he learned the man was Jewish.  There doesn't seem to be much outrage or concern from the world at these attacks.  I can only imagine what the reaction would be if the roles were reversed.

I know anti-Semites are stupid but hating Jews and moving to Israel is pretty stupid even for a racist.

I'm not sure what this response has to do with story, the attacker was Sudanese and the flight was between Chad and Ethiopia.

Oh, my bad. I thought it happened in Israel. Now it makes a bit more sense.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Green Line on November 04, 2015, 11:00:31 PM
http://www.timesofisrael.com/sudanese-attacks-israeli-on-ethiopian-airlines-flight/

An Israeli citizen was attacked by a Sudanese Muslim on a flight after he learned the man was Jewish.  There doesn't seem to be much outrage or concern from the world at these attacks.  I can only imagine what the reaction would be if the roles were reversed.

I know anti-Semites are stupid but hating Jews and moving to Israel is pretty stupid even for a racist.

I'm not sure what this response has to do with story, the attacker was Sudanese and the flight was between Chad and Ethiopia.

Oh, my bad. I thought it happened in Israel. Now it makes a bit more sense.

I just didnt feel like this warranted its own thread


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: dead0man on November 05, 2015, 06:44:54 AM
http://www.timesofisrael.com/sudanese-attacks-israeli-on-ethiopian-airlines-flight/

An Israeli citizen was attacked by a Sudanese Muslim on a flight after he learned the man was Jewish.  There doesn't seem to be much outrage or concern from the world at these attacks.  I can only imagine what the reaction would be if the roles were reversed.

I know anti-Semites are stupid but hating Jews and moving to Israel is pretty stupid even for a racist.

I'm not sure what this response has to do with story, the attacker was Sudanese and the flight was between Chad and Ethiopia.

Oh, my bad. I thought it happened in Israel. Now it makes a bit more sense.
Jews getting attacked in Israel by Muslims isn't newsworthy enough to post about because it happens several times a day.  Hell, even the leader of the Palestinians lying about sh**t and telling his people to do it more because of those lies isn't as thread worthy as Bibi saying something stupid about Hitler.  At least around here.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on November 05, 2015, 07:52:12 AM
http://www.timesofisrael.com/sudanese-attacks-israeli-on-ethiopian-airlines-flight/

An Israeli citizen was attacked by a Sudanese Muslim on a flight after he learned the man was Jewish.  There doesn't seem to be much outrage or concern from the world at these attacks.  I can only imagine what the reaction would be if the roles were reversed.

I know anti-Semites are stupid but hating Jews and moving to Israel is pretty stupid even for a racist.

I'm not sure what this response has to do with story, the attacker was Sudanese and the flight was between Chad and Ethiopia.

Oh, my bad. I thought it happened in Israel. Now it makes a bit more sense.
Jews getting attacked in Israel by Muslims isn't newsworthy enough to post about because it happens several times a day.  Hell, even the leader of the Palestinians lying about sh**t and telling his people to do it more because of those lies isn't as thread worthy as Bibi saying something stupid about Hitler.  At least around here.
Because Israel holds itself out as not merely a Western-style liberal democracy, but the only real example of that in the Middle East, it's not surprising that it gets held to a higher standard. It's not right, as that standard should be more broadly applied, but it's not surprising.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on November 07, 2015, 08:56:08 AM
Former president Isaac Navon passed away (93) this morning. he was a very popular president and he manged to force Begin's government to create a special inquiry committee to the Sabre and Shatilla events. In 84 he returned to politics and there was talks of him running against Peres (and as a popular unifying figure breaking the Likud-Labour deadlock of the 80s) but in a rare cooperation of Peres and Rabin he was hushed aside. Remained a lifelong Labour supporter and placed 120 in the last elections.

One of the few almost-best PMs in the what-if scenarios.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on November 26, 2015, 09:13:48 PM
Poll questions on some issues, by Panels/Knesset Channel. Left less interesting ones out.

What grade do you give Deputy Foreign Minister Tzipi Hotovely (Likud)?
39% Good, 26% Bad, 23% Average

Should Yisrael Beiteinu join the government?
45% Yes, 41% No
Yisrael Beitenu voters: 55% Yes, 45% No

Do you support the EU decision to label settlement products?
78% No, 18% Yes

Will labeling settlement products harm the Israeli economy?
66% Yes, 27% No

Will labeling settlement products harm the Palestinian economy?
59% Yes, 28% No

Why is the EU labeling settlement products?
32% Opposition to Israeli policy in Judea and Samaria, 31% Anti-Semitism, 28% Hostility to Israel, 6% Advance a diplomatic process
(Not sure why it can't be a combination of (some of) these things, because I'd say the decision is fuelled by all four, but yeah... Israeli logic)

How do you define Israeli society?
54% Secular with an inclination towards traditional, 30% Traditional, 5% Moderately religious, 3% Secular, 2% Extremely religious
Note: "traditional" is the term Israelis use for everything that falls between the secular category and the religious category.

How do you define the Israeli state?
51% Secular with an inclination towards traditional, 26% Traditional, 5% Secular

Do you aspire that the Israeli state will become a Halacha State (i.e. a theocracy with laws directly derived from Jewish law, DavidB.)?
71% No, 26% Yes

Do you support ministers making decisions according to Jewish Halacha?
74% No, 23% Yes

Do you support MKs using Halacha as a source for legislation?
50% No, 41% Yes

Will diplomatic efforts of John Kerry & United Nations calm security situation in Israel?
77% No, 4% Yes

Are you pleased with Netanyahu’s conduct during latest terror wave?
72% Not Pleased, 27% Pleased

Who would you like to see in charge of Israel’s security issues?
22% Lieberman (Yisrael Beiteinu), 18% Bennett (Bayit Yehudi), 12% Netanyahu (Likud), 11% Ya'alon (Likud), 6% Lapid (Yesh Atid), 1% Herzog (ZU), 21% None of above


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on November 26, 2015, 09:16:42 PM
Ouch that last number is a stinger for Herzog.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on November 26, 2015, 10:45:28 PM
Looks like Liberman is still pretty popular. Staying out of government was a good strategy? What is YB polling right now?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on November 27, 2015, 05:58:32 AM
Looks like Liberman is still pretty popular. Staying out of government was a good strategy? What is YB polling right now?
he's as popular as security tension lasts and that's with people who won't vote for him come election day.

A poll last week on PM preferences one on one with BB had LTG Gantz the only one beating him and carry votes from the right 44% to BB 32%
BB beat the rest
Herzog 28% BB 51%
Lapid 32% BB 46% (I would actually rather have BB than that dimwit)
Ashkenazi 29% BB 41%
Diskin 30% BB 39% (my personal favorite of the bunch)

Alas, Gantz can't compete till 2018 but I fully expect Labour politicos to dethrone Herzog soon


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MalaspinaGold on November 30, 2015, 04:16:33 AM
Last week three women came forward accusing Bayit Yehudi MK Yinon Magal of sexual harrasment while he worked at Walla!. He'll be stepping down.

Was frequently touted as a RISING STAR for JH, being a secular and all. Of course he had already made public he was an idiotic sleazeball, so whatever.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on November 30, 2015, 05:16:04 AM
Who's next on the list? Isn't it the Third Temple guy?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on November 30, 2015, 05:22:48 AM
Who's next on the list? Isn't it the Third Temple guy?
former MK Avi Wortzman, seemed fairly right win but not a nutter in his last term when he was also deputy minister of education.

I'm happy Magal is out he was a twat along with Gal and their both out now


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 02, 2015, 01:33:28 PM
edit to that: Wurtzman did want to be sworn in and the next in line was the party CEO so Bennet decided to resume being an MK


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on December 03, 2015, 11:05:28 AM
A new poll by Maagar Mochot:

Likud: 31
ZU: 20
Yesh Atid: 15
Joint List:13
Jewish Home: 9
Shas: 8
Yisrael Beitenu: 8
UTJ: 6
Meretz: 5
Kulanu: 5


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Vosem on December 03, 2015, 11:24:04 AM
A new poll by Maagar Mochot:

Likud: 31
ZU: 20
Yesh Atid: 15
Joint List:13
Jewish Home: 9
Shas: 8
Yisrael Beitenu: 8
UTJ: 6
Meretz: 5
Kulanu: 5

The current government is at 59, the opposition is at 61. However, it is still impossible, under these numbers, to create a government that is not Likud-led.

In an odd historical twist, Israel and Germany are in very similar political situations right now. In both countries, the largest right-wing party has won the last three elections straight, sometimes with a grand coalition (Netanyahu allied with Avoda 2009-2011, and with Yesh Atid 2013-2014) and sometimes not. It's difficult to see the left take power in either country, and in both countries it is severely hampered by the existence of a "further-left" option (Die Linke in Germany and the Joint List in Israel) who it cannot form a coalition with but whose voters it needs if it is ever to have a chance at forming government.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on December 03, 2015, 12:46:03 PM
Right/religious is at 62 in the poll, which is what matters. YB also counts for that. Center/left at 45 (including Kulanu); 58 including Arabs. A pretty stable picture, though it has been quite a bit higher for the right in the past.

Most of the government parties' losses stem from Kulanu's decline. Predictable, given the fact that centrist Israeli voters have myriad options, Yesh Atid is outside the government and Kahlon didn't do anything useful to them. Shame Yachad wasn't polled.

In an odd historical twist, Israel and Germany are in very similar political situations right now. In both countries, the largest right-wing party has won the last three elections straight, sometimes with a grand coalition (Netanyahu allied with Avoda 2009-2011, and with Yesh Atid 2013-2014) and sometimes not. It's difficult to see the left take power in either country, and in both countries it is severely hampered by the existence of a "further-left" option (Die Linke in Germany and the Joint List in Israel) who it cannot form a coalition with but whose voters it needs if it is ever to have a chance at forming government.
Interesting perspective. To add to that, the situation toward same-sex marriage is similar in Germany and Israel. A popular majority support it and a majority in parliament support it (also in Israel: according to this year's voting compass Likud, ZU, JL, Meretz, YA and Kulanu support it; even if some Likud and JL members would vote against, there would probably be a majority). However, the most conservative parties in the coalition prevent it from happening and will likely be doing so in the next coalition as well. Of course, the difference is that in Israel smaller religious parties are blocking it whereas the big "conservative" party supports it, whereas in Germany it is the big "conservative" party (and its proxy) that blocks it.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 03, 2015, 02:31:11 PM
A. midterm polls in Israel are rubbish B. Israeli polling companies are rubbish
I would take this poll with a kilogram of salt as the numbers don't really add up rationally. With regards to the comparison with Germany neither the 09 and 13 coalitions could be considered as 'Grand Coalition' by local standards but rather ordinary coalition, a Grand Coalition suggests some form of power share ala 1984\1988. Also in Germany red-green-dark red coalition is possible in Israel a Labour lead coalition with the JAL is far fetched


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on December 03, 2015, 02:32:32 PM
Could JL provide external support to a Labour coalition, or is even that off the table?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 03, 2015, 02:42:27 PM
Could JL provide external support to a Labour coalition, or is even that off the table?
Likely but hardly from the start of a term and it really depends on 'peace process progress'. Anyway Herzog is unlikely to form a coalition and Labour don't seem to be on the road to nowhere, if Lapid forms the next government (please no) he'll never be dependent on the JAL and they're unlikely to support him.

It really seems that no party leader (bar for maybe UTJ) actually likes Bibi or would like to see him stay in politics let alone most of Likud ministers. Liberman hates him, Kachlon has a belly full of resent towards him, Lapid he's waiting for him around the corner, Deri'i would much rather not work with him, and Bennet...that goes on personal levels now.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on December 03, 2015, 03:04:14 PM
Why do you hate Lapid? I thought he was just an inoffensive dullard?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on December 03, 2015, 03:05:24 PM
I hope Netanyahu will step down after this term. Barkat would be a good leader for Likud. Not that I'd (or I'll; depending on when the election takes place) vote for him, of course but he would be better than Bibi, who has simply become too damaging to Israel abroad, even if that is mostly not his own fault, and who is too indecisive on domestic issues. But basically everybody doesn't want Bibi anymore, and yet he decides whether he will stay on or not; nobody within Likud truly seems to be able to topple him. A pretty impressive position of power.

Why do you hate Lapid? I thought he was just an inoffensive dullard?
Lapid is not a dullard. He's pretty smooth, even a bit too much, and exactly that is what people find off-putting.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Comrade Funk on December 03, 2015, 03:28:00 PM
Impressive for YA. Further proof Labor needs a new leader which seems very possible at this point.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Vosem on December 03, 2015, 04:18:24 PM
I hope Netanyahu will step down after this term.

One of the issues in Israeli politics is how profoundly, profoundly unusual stepping aside is for a national leader; it's very unusual for an Israeli political leader to step down (besides Ben-Gurion, who stepped down twice but was trying to return to power both times inside of two years, the only two Israeli Prime Ministers who've stepped down voluntarily were Meir and Begin -- and had Begin lived later, he might've been diagnosed with clinical depression, so in a certain sense the only Israeli Prime Minister to step down because they felt their time had passed, and who stuck with that decision, was Golda Meir. A quick survey of Israeli Prime Ministers:

Ben-Gurion: stepped aside voluntarily in 1954 but reconsidered within a year (successfully); stepped aside voluntarily in 1963 but reconsidered within two years (unsuccessfully)
Sharett: forced out by own party, 1955
Eshkol: died, 1969
Meir: stepped aside voluntarily, 1974 (only really pure example)
Rabin: forced out by own party under ethical cloud, 1977; assassinated, 1995
Begin: stepped aside voluntarily, 1983, but had fallen into depression by this time
Shamir: stepped out under power-sharing agreement, 1984; defeated, 1992
Peres: stepped out under power-sharing agreement, 1986; defeated, 1996
Netanyahu (first time): defeated, 1999
Barak: defeated, 2001
Sharon: fell into coma, 2006
Olmert: forced out by own party, 2009

So, Israeli politics is historically so volatile (a majority of the time) or so dominated by one individual (a minority of the time) that the country has failed to develop a tradition of leaders eventually stepping aside. (There is also not a tradition of politicians stepping aside due to age; Shimon Peres, who was an important figure in Israeli diplomacy in the 1950s, fought his first election in 1977, fought his last election in 1996, and was still fighting for party leadership in 2005, at age 82, and did not leave politics until 2014. If Netanyahu is still trying to cling to Likud leadership at age 82, this will happen in 2034.)

The point is, I find it difficult to envision Netanyahu going quietly into the night. He will remain until he is overthrown, whether by election defeat (seems unlikely in the immediate future), by intraparty rivals (likewise), by scandal (likewise), or by a biological condition (likewise). There is very little precedent in Israeli politics for leadership figures stepping down of their own volition.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on December 03, 2015, 05:35:16 PM
Yeah, I didn't say it was likely for him to do so. In fact, I think he will stay on until 202x, since I don't see the Israeli electorate give the left (excluding the Arabs) more seats than the right; their numbers just don't add up.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 03, 2015, 08:33:36 PM
Why do you hate Lapid? I thought he was just an inoffensive dullard?
He's very much a dullard and a horrible one at it. The web is filled with his pathetic intellectual bloopers, he's shallow to the point it's absurd and the problem is he has no self awareness so he's certain he's the brightest kid in class. He's smooth but that's because he's a dumbed version of Bibi, a demagogue with nothing bright to say. Now if there something I dislike is shallowness in politics and intellectual deficit (hence my disliking of American politics and politicians) so I find him especially off-putting.

And on the political level, he's far from inoffensive and his remarks regarding Arabs, leftists, right wingers, religious people and such shows it. His 'centerism' is actually militant right-wing in its core and as I said I think he's a dumbed version of Bibi. Now I dislike Bibi but I'de rather him than his lackwit mini-me as a PM. In addition, he's completely a puppet, everything he writes and says now is formulated by imaging experts and powerful people in Yediot group who want their puppet in office.

David are you a civilian? I didn't know you did Aliya


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on December 04, 2015, 12:04:13 PM
He's very much a dullard and a horrible one at it. The web is filled with his pathetic intellectual bloopers, he's shallow to the point it's absurd and the problem is he has no self awareness so he's certain he's the brightest kid in class. He's smooth but that's because he's a dumbed version of Bibi, a demagogue with nothing bright to say. Now if there something I dislike is shallowness in politics and intellectual deficit (hence my disliking of American politics and politicians) so I find him especially off-putting.

And on the political level, he's far from inoffensive and his remarks regarding Arabs, leftists, right wingers, religious people and such shows it. His 'centerism' is actually militant right-wing in its core and as I said I think he's a dumbed version of Bibi. Now I dislike Bibi but I'de rather him than his lackwit mini-me as a PM. In addition, he's completely a puppet, everything he writes and says now is formulated by imaging experts and powerful people in Yediot group who want their puppet in office.
Because of his offensiveness I wouldn't use the word dullard, but yes, he's not too smart. I entirely agree with your descriptive analysis of Lapid, except for the part in which you call him militantly right-wing: while I totally understand where it comes from and while I think many people don't understand how right-wing Lapid actually is, his "brand" is more populist than right-wing to the core in the sense that he basically takes the median position of secular Israelis on the topic of security: "two-state solution, but not now". And that position is inevitably rather right-wing when it comes to politics in practice, since it isn't that different from Bibi's position. But it stems from opportunism rather than conviction.

I'd compare Lapid's position to the one many European social liberal politicians have, in the sense that their "right-wingness" is often grossly underestimated. Not in terms of policy positions, of course, where Lapid is much more right-wing (in an Israeli sense, on the conflict) than any social liberal politician would ever be, but just in terms of where one stands in the political space when it comes to the most important political divide (in Europe mostly socio-economic, in Israel the conflict).

David are you a civilian? I didn't know you did Aliya
Not yet, but it's pretty likely that I'll be an Israeli citizen when the next election takes place -- that is, if the next election will take place in 2019, which is actually not that likely given the fact that it is, after all, Israel we're talking about :) Luckily, as a Dutchman, I can handle the idea of snap elections...


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 04, 2015, 06:41:01 PM
It grieves me personally to say that Yossi Sarid (75) former chairman of Meretz, Minister of Education, MK for 32 years (Maarach, Ratz, Meretz), and a prolific author and journalist has passed away tonight. He's a leading figure in my formative years of understanding politics and his run in 99 made me a follower. Later on, I met him on several occasions and found truly brilliant person. Though nowadays I align politically more with his rival Aloni's legacy I nevertheless regard him as one of the finest people we had in Israeli politics.
RIP


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Comrade Funk on December 05, 2015, 08:04:00 PM
I recommend people to watch this John Kerry speech.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q10MZaKH8oQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q10MZaKH8oQ)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MalaspinaGold on December 10, 2015, 01:22:56 AM
Interesting Haaretz interview with Shas MK Yaakov Margi, Somewhat of a "Red Shasnik", to borrow the British/Canadian phraseology.
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.690869 (http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.690869)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 20, 2015, 12:43:18 PM
So Interior Minister (and Chief of the negotiation with Palestinian [which?]) Sylvan Shalom resigns due to allegations of sexual harassment. once a rising star in the Likud and almost a PM candidate, he was a senior minister until 2006 and then his career faded away. I've been a political troll from the late 90's at least and I cannot recall a single thing good or bad I can credit him with, he was always mellow at best with good friends in the media.

Next in line is Amir Ohana who is going to be the first ever gay Likud MK! (in a party that does not support gay rights), from the interview with him I read he appears social liberal but very Hawkish. After him is the third temple nutter, so I assume Bibi will try very hard to keep this lineup all the way to the next elections.
Number of LGBT MKs now: 2 - Ohana and Shmoli.

Fun fact: Bibi is now the PM, Foreign minister, Economy minister, Communications Minister, Regional Cooperation Minister, and the Interior Minister (for now at least) . L'Etat, c'est moi


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on December 20, 2015, 01:12:24 PM
Remind me, who is Shmoli?

Also, who are the two closeted ones?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 20, 2015, 01:29:12 PM
Remind me, who is Shmoli?

Also, who are the two closeted ones?
Itzik Shmoli (Labour) - obnoxious politico from the Israeli National Student Union which is a nurturing home for bland politicos. On Labour's right, rode through the 2011 protests to the Knesset.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on December 20, 2015, 01:46:36 PM
Israeli National Student Union which is a nurturing home for bland politicos.

I do like how certain things are the same, world over...


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan on December 20, 2015, 01:58:49 PM
Can some Israeli poster can say more or less or maybe send me some links about which parties Israeli Christians (Arabs, not Arabs) usually vote on? They are small minority but maybe there are some data about them? I found information about such party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_the_New_Testament but they don't seem to be popular. I will be very grateful for the help.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on December 20, 2015, 02:18:42 PM
Can some Israeli poster can say more or less or maybe send me some links about which parties Israeli Christians (Arabs, not Arabs) usually vote on? They are small minority but maybe there are some data about them? I found information about such party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_the_New_Testament but they don't seem to be popular. I will be very grateful for the help.

Mostly the secular Communist/socialist Hadash party. A few vote for the more Palestinian nationalist Balad party, whose founder is a Christian. A few more vote for Labor.

Mostly Hadash though. Now both Hadash and Balad are part of the Joint List. So most vote for the Joint List.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 20, 2015, 02:33:12 PM
Can some Israeli poster can say more or less or maybe send me some links about which parties Israeli Christians (Arabs, not Arabs) usually vote on? They are small minority but maybe there are some data about them? I found information about such party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_the_New_Testament but they don't seem to be popular. I will be very grateful for the help.
Most Hadash as it was the party of the Arab intelligentsia which was mostly Christian (best Arabic schools are private church schools) so they are pretty dominant across the Christian strongholds. Lots of the younger ones vote Balad though. Some vote Meretz (at least a popular pick in Haifa) and Labour. And there is a group of Maronites who vote Likud.
Their numbers are dwindling as it is with many immigrated along the years and the demographic balance changing to a large Muslim majority.

Non Arabic Christians living here who are also citizens (most are missionary and such) are scarce. Can't say there's enough of them to really talk about allegiance nor to talk of any group mentality. There's the Messianic Jews ("Jews who believe in Jesus") don't think they have a specific affiliation.  

You should note that most Arab Christians are far from devout and are mostly secular, they have very different denominations but I don't think any of those are "radical" (as 'Christian right') and of the Arabic society they are probably the most Liberal (surprisingly I'd rate the Druze last)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan on December 20, 2015, 02:35:39 PM
Thank you both!


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on December 20, 2015, 02:47:20 PM
I think most non Arab Christians are immigrants from the former USSR, and I imagine they vote similarly to Jewish immigrants, with Likud and Beitenu doing well.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on December 20, 2015, 02:54:28 PM
There are currently two members of the Christian community in the Knesset, both from the Joint List. One is Basel Ghattas from Balad, however is he a former member of Hadash. The other is Aida Touma-Suleiman from Hadash, however I do not know if she's in any way practicing, she's just from a Christian family, that's why I say "member of the Christian community".


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on December 20, 2015, 10:10:02 PM
Glad to see Amir Ohana get a chance to be in the Knesset. Likud continues to outclass the American Right with it's tolerance of LGBT.

Very depressed to see Shalom go. I hope he is innocent because of his long service in politics, but his wife interfering with an investigation is not a good sign.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on December 21, 2015, 09:43:08 AM
Glad to see Amir Ohana get a chance to be in the Knesset. Likud continues to outclass the American Right with it's tolerance of LGBT.
Hear, hear. This is very good. Also very good that Yehuda Glick is next on the list to enter the Knesset as a Likud MP.

()
Ohana is the guy on the left. Picture on the airport with his partner and their children :)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 21, 2015, 11:30:19 AM
Glad to see Amir Ohana get a chance to be in the Knesset. Likud continues to outclass the American Right with it's tolerance of LGBT.

Very depressed to see Shalom go. I hope he is innocent because of his long service in politics, but his wife interfering with an investigation is not a good sign.
Long service? He's seriously one of the dullest politicians we had, also one who always seemed firmly committed to advancing his reputation with no "agenda\ideology" to advance. I was trying to think of a single memorable decent thing he did and I cannot think of anything. Heck I couldn't even determine his stance on anything!

I'm happy he's gone, he was from the post Yom Kippor generation who brought us nothing but corruption and self preservation (Olmmert, Ramon, and others as well).

Quote
Also very good that Yehuda Glick is next on the list to enter the Knesset as a Likud MP
A fringe charecter recently shot by a Palestinian for his third temple activities. would fit better in right of JH, can't see Bibi letting him (he's also a political ally of Feiglin)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on December 22, 2015, 02:45:04 AM
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Jerusalem-mayor-Nir-Barkat-joins-the-Likud-calls-on-supporters-to-do-the-same-438030

Nir Barkat is officially a Likud member. Not a surprise to anyone, but great news nonetheless for people like me. Whenever the next election is, and if Bibi retires, I'll be starting a #DraftBarkat4PMMovement


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on December 22, 2015, 02:49:47 AM
Glad to see Amir Ohana get a chance to be in the Knesset. Likud continues to outclass the American Right with it's tolerance of LGBT.

Very depressed to see Shalom go. I hope he is innocent because of his long service in politics, but his wife interfering with an investigation is not a good sign.
Long service? He's seriously one of the dullest politicians we had, also one who always seemed firmly committed to advancing his reputation with no "agenda\ideology" to advance. I was trying to think of a single memorable decent thing he did and I cannot think of anything. Heck I couldn't even determine his stance on anything!

I'm happy he's gone, he was from the post Yom Kippor generation who brought us nothing but corruption and self preservation (Olmmert, Ramon, and others as well).

Quote
Also very good that Yehuda Glick is next on the list to enter the Knesset as a Likud MP
A fringe charecter recently shot by a Palestinian for his third temple activities. would fit better in right of JH, can't see Bibi letting him (he's also a political ally of Feiglin)

Agreed. This is why I think Likud is hoping Oren Hazan isn't corrupt and that he will eventually be unsuspended. I personally have no issue w/ Glick and would like to see him in the Knesset, especially to rid Likud of Hazan.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 22, 2015, 02:53:12 AM
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Jerusalem-mayor-Nir-Barkat-joins-the-Likud-calls-on-supporters-to-do-the-same-438030

Nir Barkat is officially a Likud member. Not a surprise to anyone, but great news nonetheless for people like me. Whenever the next election is, and if Bibi retires, I'll be starting a #DraftBarkat4PMMovement
Word is Likud primaries will be in 2 months so Barkat won't compete.
Hazan isn't going to resign unless he's really under criminal investigation...his parent have too much at stake to let their stock fall...


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on December 22, 2015, 04:27:13 AM
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Jerusalem-mayor-Nir-Barkat-joins-the-Likud-calls-on-supporters-to-do-the-same-438030

Nir Barkat is officially a Likud member. Not a surprise to anyone, but great news nonetheless for people like me. Whenever the next election is, and if Bibi retires, I'll be starting a #DraftBarkat4PMMovement
Word is Likud primaries will be in 2 months so Barkat won't compete.
Hazan isn't going to resign unless he's really under criminal investigation...his parent have too much at stake to let their stock fall...

Very true. It's not surprising, but depressing nonetheless. Hopefully this controversy is either something real or nothing at all...anything to get Hazan's name out of the news for a few weeks.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on December 23, 2015, 05:36:51 PM
A fringe charecter recently shot by a Palestinian for his third temple activities. would fit better in right of JH, can't see Bibi letting him (he's also a political ally of Feiglin)
I obviously know who Glick is. I wouldn't care about some average Likudnik becoming an MK, since I'm to their right (and given recent developments also to BY's right; would probably vote Zehut now). It would be interesting if Glick were to become the one who holds the balance of power for the coalition.

I'd like to see Barkat become PM in the future and I am very happy he became a member of Likud. At this point I've become tired of Netanyahu, who hurts the country and impedes progress on important issues. He's only there for himself.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MalaspinaGold on December 23, 2015, 06:20:04 PM
A fringe charecter recently shot by a Palestinian for his third temple activities. would fit better in right of JH, can't see Bibi letting him (he's also a political ally of Feiglin)
I obviously know who Glick is. I wouldn't care about some average Likudnik becoming an MK, since I'm to their right (and given recent developments also to BY's right; would probably vote Zehut now). It would be interesting if Glick were to become the one who holds the balance of power for the coalition.

I'd like to see Barkat become PM in the future and I am very happy he became a member of Likud. At this point I've become tired of Netanyahu, who hurts the country and impedes progress on important issues. He's only there for himself.
Stop.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on December 23, 2015, 06:53:20 PM
Not sure how you still manage to be surprised or disappointed when we disagree, when basically all our conversations are based on disagreement (and granted, some agreement)... I already told you I am a huge supporter of Feiglin.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on December 23, 2015, 07:29:23 PM
Didn't Barkat endorse Kadima in the past? I know this doesn't matter but it's interesting nonetheless.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MalaspinaGold on December 23, 2015, 10:43:58 PM
Not sure how you still manage to be surprised or disappointed when we disagree, when basically all our conversations are based on disagreement (and granted, some agreement)... I already told you I am a huge supporter of Feiglin.
There's disagreement and there's endorsing Zalman Moshe Fegelein's latest cult front.
EDIT: Also, what are these "recent developments" or should I be afraid to ask?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on December 24, 2015, 12:38:54 AM
Not sure how you still manage to be surprised or disappointed when we disagree, when basically all our conversations are based on disagreement (and granted, some agreement)... I already told you I am a huge supporter of Feiglin.
There's disagreement and there's endorsing Zalman Moshe Fegelein's latest cult front.
EDIT: Also, what are these "recent developments" or should I be afraid to ask?

What is so bad about Feiglin? I'm not planning on voting for him, but I can appreciate that he is an independent thinker and tries to have a consistent world view even when I don't agree with him, and isn't content to have the convenient opinions about everything other then security/settlements.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MalaspinaGold on December 24, 2015, 01:14:57 AM
Not sure how you still manage to be surprised or disappointed when we disagree, when basically all our conversations are based on disagreement (and granted, some agreement)... I already told you I am a huge supporter of Feiglin.
There's disagreement and there's endorsing Zalman Moshe Fegelein's latest cult front.
EDIT: Also, what are these "recent developments" or should I be afraid to ask?

What is so bad about Feiglin? I'm not planning on voting for him, but I can appreciate that he is an independent thinker and tries to have a consistent world view even when I don't agree with him, and isn't content to have the convenient opinions about everything other then security/settlements.
They say the same thing about Zoabi.
Evaluating politicians in many ways resembles evaluating atlas posters: edgy =/= good.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on December 24, 2015, 01:27:45 AM
Not sure how you still manage to be surprised or disappointed when we disagree, when basically all our conversations are based on disagreement (and granted, some agreement)... I already told you I am a huge supporter of Feiglin.
There's disagreement and there's endorsing Zalman Moshe Fegelein's latest cult front.
EDIT: Also, what are these "recent developments" or should I be afraid to ask?

What is so bad about Feiglin? I'm not planning on voting for him, but I can appreciate that he is an independent thinker and tries to have a consistent world view even when I don't agree with him, and isn't content to have the convenient opinions about everything other then security/settlements.
They say the same thing about Zoabi.

Ok, so what is your problem with Feiglin beyond your general problem with right wing Israelis?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MalaspinaGold on December 24, 2015, 01:37:52 AM
Not sure how you still manage to be surprised or disappointed when we disagree, when basically all our conversations are based on disagreement (and granted, some agreement)... I already told you I am a huge supporter of Feiglin.
There's disagreement and there's endorsing Zalman Moshe Fegelein's latest cult front.
EDIT: Also, what are these "recent developments" or should I be afraid to ask?

What is so bad about Feiglin? I'm not planning on voting for him, but I can appreciate that he is an independent thinker and tries to have a consistent world view even when I don't agree with him, and isn't content to have the convenient opinions about everything other then security/settlements.
They say the same thing about Zoabi.

Ok, so what is your problem with Feiglin beyond your general problem with right wing Israelis?
Well, there's the fact that he manages to seamlessly bind theocratic principles with hyperliberarian economics, more so than literally any other figure in Israel that I can think of.
I also get a vibe of genuine nastiness from him (and no I don't get this feeling from all or even most Israeli right-wingers, even those from the more... theocratic end).
I'm also pretty sure he's a closet Kahanist (didn't he work with them back in the day?)



Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 24, 2015, 09:08:33 AM
So Likud leadership elections will most likely be held in February and Gideon Saar a pretender to the crown announced he is not going to participate in Bibi's circus so to say. With him out I really don't see any strong challenger from inside.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on December 24, 2015, 09:16:24 PM
Ok, so what is your problem with Feiglin beyond your general problem with right wing Israelis?
Well, there's the fact that he manages to seamlessly bind theocratic principles with hyperliberarian economics, more so than literally any other figure in Israel that I can think of.
I also get a vibe of genuine nastiness from him (and no I don't get this feeling from all or even most Israeli right-wingers, even those from the more... theocratic end).
I'm also pretty sure he's a closet Kahanist (didn't he work with them back in the day?)


Feiglin is less theocratic than you would expect from a religious right winger, he opposes all kinds of religious laws that are supported even by Likud, much less BY.
Nastiness is very subjective so I can't really argue with that, but he seems like a genuinely nice guy to me.
Feiglin doesn't keep his opinions in the closet, and they don't really match Kahane's. Of course sometimes the opinions match and maybe there was some cooperation that I'm not aware of (this was before my time). But if this is your criteria to be against him, then you should be even more worried with BY, their number 2 sat in the same party with openly Kahannist Ben Ari pretty recently.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on December 24, 2015, 09:28:26 PM
Although Feiglin has taken this role of media boogeyman, his platform actually isn't that scary. It's more just ridiculous. He doesn't want to kill the Arabs, he just wants to pay them all to leave. Obviously that wouldn't work and it would never happen. It's so completely fantastical it's hardly worth getting upset over.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MalaspinaGold on December 25, 2015, 03:13:16 PM
Well, on this topic, some interesting things have been happening, specifically re: the aftermath of the Duma firebombing.

Essentially there have been reports that the Shin Bet has been using "enhanced interrogation" (aka torture) on some young (mostly teenage/early 20s) radical Jews, who were part of the group believed responsible for the firebombing, and still considered suspects. This has drawn condemnation from the usual suspects (e.g.  B'tselem) but also from some parts of the radical right (because "A Jew doesn't torture a Jew"). This has given Bennett a significant headache, because his party has the Justice Portfolio, and Justice Minister Shaked has been allowing the practice to continue, all the while the more radical Tekumah faction (Uri Ariel and Bezalel Smotrich) have been whinging. Bennett's definitively sided with Shaked though. I assume this is what's burst DavidB's bubble.

Then this happened.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/30-wedding-guests-to-be-questioned-over-clip-cheering-duma-murders/ (http://www.timesofisrael.com/30-wedding-guests-to-be-questioned-over-clip-cheering-duma-murders/)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MaxQue on December 25, 2015, 06:00:29 PM
The wedding news made news all around the world (I read it myself in Quebec news), so the government has to take the hardline position against them anyways.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 26, 2015, 05:12:54 AM
Interesting things here:
JH merger with Tkuma will probably not last, Bennet and Ariel\Smoterich are not "clicking" at the moment at all
The Khanist were never a part of Gush Emunim or the national religious movement and here most of those arrested are sons of leading Rabbis and leaders of that sector, just to show are right wing the young settlers generation is.
Bennet, JH, and associated NGOs have been waging a facebook battle (in Israel facebook is where internet politics happen not twitter) against parts of their own electorate, the Jewish imagination had spread ridiculous rumors about the Shin Bet techniques, Bennet checked and found it's a pile of BS


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on December 26, 2015, 07:37:45 AM
I'll put in my two cents on Feiglin. I'm glad he's gone from the Knesset. As Famous Mortimer mentioned, his views aren't crazy but more of a ridiculous nature. Which is part of why I don't take him seriously. I also just think he comes off as an ass.

Yehuda Glick is much better and I would prefer him in.

Also, i agree w/ DavidB on Bibi. I love him, think he's been a good leader, but he needs to retire. He is no longer being productive and he's been in office too long. Whenever the next elections are, if he is still party leader, I will likely support The Jewish Home.

I'll likely support Barkat, if he runs, which won't be while Bibi is still leader, but my preferred and unrealistic choices would be Regev or Hotovely.


 


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on December 26, 2015, 07:56:29 AM
Although Feiglin has taken this role of media boogeyman, his platform actually isn't that scary. It's more just ridiculous. He doesn't want to kill the Arabs, he just wants to pay them all to leave. Obviously that wouldn't work and it would never happen. It's so completely fantastical it's hardly worth getting upset over.

Nah, I dunno, IMO proposing that Israel be ethnically cleansed doesn't seem completely fantastical given the history of the area.

Will Bibi retire willingly, or will he try and stay forever until his health or scandal takes him?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 26, 2015, 12:36:55 PM

I'll likely support Barkat, if he runs, which won't be while Bibi is still leader, but my preferred and unrealistic choices would be Regev or Hotovely.

Say what now? this the first I ever heard anyone saying he'd like to see her in charge, not even by her erhmm "electorate" ...are you having a laugh?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on December 26, 2015, 12:41:23 PM
Yeah it's hard to imagine Regev as PM. I suppose it would be pretty funny, but it's still a bad idea.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on December 26, 2015, 04:12:03 PM
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/205496#.Vn8Be_krLIV

Tel Aviv man arrested for threatening Bibi, other figures.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on December 29, 2015, 09:38:50 AM
I'll likely support Barkat, if he runs, which won't be while Bibi is still leader, but my preferred and unrealistic choices would be Regev or Hotovely.  
Agree with this.

This has given Bennett a significant headache, because his party has the Justice Portfolio, and Justice Minister Shaked has been allowing the practice to continue, all the while the more radical Tekumah faction (Uri Ariel and Bezalel Smotrich) have been whinging. Bennett's definitively sided with Shaked though. I assume this is what's burst DavidB's bubble.
I'd been disappointed with Bennett for a while already, but Shaked's approval of torturing Jews is indeed very disturbing. Fortunately the Tekumah MPs are being more principled. I can't believe how Bennett is currently framing opposition to torture as opposition to the existence of the state and its institutions.

On Feiglin:
Well, there's the fact that he manages to seamlessly bind theocratic principles with hyperliberarian economics, more so than literally any other figure in Israel that I can think of.
I also get a vibe of genuine nastiness from him (and no I don't get this feeling from all or even most Israeli right-wingers, even those from the more... theocratic end).
I'm also pretty sure he's a closet Kahanist (didn't he work with them back in the day?)
He is actually not that theocratic at all, and I agree with Danny: to me he actually seems a truly likeable person.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MalaspinaGold on December 29, 2015, 12:02:38 PM
I'll likely support Barkat, if he runs, which won't be while Bibi is still leader, but my preferred and unrealistic choices would be Regev or Hotovely.  
Agree with this.

This has given Bennett a significant headache, because his party has the Justice Portfolio, and Justice Minister Shaked has been allowing the practice to continue, all the while the more radical Tekumah faction (Uri Ariel and Bezalel Smotrich) have been whinging. Bennett's definitively sided with Shaked though. I assume this is what's burst DavidB's bubble.
I'd been disappointed with Bennett for a while already, but Shaked's approval of torturing Jews is indeed very disturbing. Fortunately the Tekumah MPs are being more principled. I can't believe how Bennett is currently framing opposition to torture as opposition to the existence of the state and its institutions.

On Feiglin:
Well, there's the fact that he manages to seamlessly bind theocratic principles with hyperliberarian economics, more so than literally any other figure in Israel that I can think of.
I also get a vibe of genuine nastiness from him (and no I don't get this feeling from all or even most Israeli right-wingers, even those from the more... theocratic end).
I'm also pretty sure he's a closet Kahanist (didn't he work with them back in the day?)
He is actually not that theocratic at all, and I agree with Danny: to me he actually seems a truly likeable person.
a) Still no one has put up any evidence that torture actually took place.
b) By principled I assume you mean "we should only torture Palestinians".


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 30, 2015, 10:13:27 AM
Likud leadership primaries to be held in late Feb. Bibi is going to win and secure his leadership until 2023 (yes I know shocking).
MK Haim Katz was elected Party Convention Chairman, but Bibi pretty much drained that post out of power.
no word yet regarding Labour leadership primaries


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on December 30, 2015, 12:46:08 PM
a) Still no one has put up any evidence that torture actually took place.
b) By principled I assume you mean "we should only torture Palestinians".
a) One of the detainees lawyer's has released photos of his scarred wrist. Bennett, Shaked etc. also said that there had been no suicide attempt. I don't believe them anymore. I do think these kids were tortured.
b) I am my brother's keeper (even if I disapprove of the bad stuff he did), not the keeper of my evil cousin who wants to kill my brother and me.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on December 30, 2015, 02:33:15 PM
a) Still no one has put up any evidence that torture actually took place.
b) By principled I assume you mean "we should only torture Palestinians".
a) One of the detainees lawyer's has released photos of his scarred wrist. Bennett, Shaked etc. also said that there had been no suicide attempt. I don't believe them anymore. I do think these kids were tortured.
b) I am my brother's keeper (even if I disapprove of the bad stuff he did), not the keeper of my evil cousin who wants to kill my brother and me.

I don't disagree with the concept, but when it comes to detaining people, I disagree. Being Jewish does not give anyone a free pass. If you want to have a conversation on whether or not these Jewish suspects were properly detained or not then thats a different conversation, but I frankly don't care either way.

let's not pretend like these people randomly got brought in. There is a reason they were brought in. Their personal histories are shoddy at best and they can provide answers ISA and Shabak needs.

I'm sure you'll disagree, DavidB, many of my friends and family have bitterly disagreed me.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on December 30, 2015, 03:51:25 PM
I'm not saying these people were randomly brought in. I even believe at least some of them did something very bad (while some others didn't), and they should absolutely be punished harshly for that. But let the justice system take care of that, instead of detaining and torturing suspects in order to make them confess. The justice system should just make sure they have a good case. Even suspects have rights, you know. That is not just important for Meir Ettinger, it is important for every Israeli.

This isn't something weird to say; it is exactly how it works in the Netherlands and (afaik) in the US. Citizens have due process rights and even in Guantanamo's darkest days, US citizens have not been tortured.

A Jewish state should treat Jews in a Jewish way. That might include harsh sentencing after a fair process, but it does not include stripping away someone's rights and torturing them in order to make them confess.

(Apart from that, all the attention for this case diverts attention from the much more important fact that Arabs continue to attack Jews every. single. day. Time to move on.)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on December 30, 2015, 07:27:10 PM
Fair point. It's a difficult situation, regardless of position. I agree w/ your last point, for sure. It's become a distraction.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on December 31, 2015, 12:55:18 AM

a) Still no one has put up any evidence that torture actually took place.

It doesn't seem necessary, no one is really denying that torture is taking place, at most there is a disagreement on how severe the torture is. The real debate is between those who are against the torture and those who support it.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MalaspinaGold on December 31, 2015, 01:14:53 AM

a) Still no one has put up any evidence that torture actually took place.

It doesn't seem necessary, no one is really denying that torture is taking place, at most there is a disagreement on how severe the torture is. The real debate is between those who are against the torture and those who support it.

Shin Bet has, and continues to vociferously deny torture took place.
http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/327965/israels-shin-bet-denies-torturing-duma-suspects/ (http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/327965/israels-shin-bet-denies-torturing-duma-suspects/)

@DavidB: you can have whatever opinion you want: what I object to is labeling it as principle, as in principled opposition to torture. That requires being against it for people you don't like also.

For reference:
Quote
This week, it was Ariel who recommended that the Shin Bet’s Jewish Division be shut down. What’s the problem, he “innocently” protested: It’s not like I proposed closing down the whole Shin Bet.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on December 31, 2015, 01:46:19 AM

a) Still no one has put up any evidence that torture actually took place.

It doesn't seem necessary, no one is really denying that torture is taking place, at most there is a disagreement on how severe the torture is. The real debate is between those who are against the torture and those who support it.

Shin Bet has, and continues to vociferously deny torture took place.
http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/327965/israels-shin-bet-denies-torturing-duma-suspects/ (http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/327965/israels-shin-bet-denies-torturing-duma-suspects/)

I read that response, and nowhere in it do they actually deny any torture, they just make vague claims of other people lying about something. This statement is entirely consistent with torture, if they wanted to deny torture they could have just done that.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 31, 2015, 08:47:09 AM
A Jewish state should treat Jews in a Jewish way. That might include harsh sentencing after a fair process, but it does not include stripping away someone's rights and torturing them in order to make them confess.
What's a "Jewish" way? death penalty for fornicating with a married women, gay sex, or not respecting the sabbath as the Halcha requires?
 
A modern state should treat its citizens in a humane way.

I don't think they were tortured, they had a rough investigation which I opposed (as they were not an imminent threat) as I oppose most of those rough methods when they are conducted toward Palestinians. "Torture" is a strong word, you wanna see torture you should check American methods.

As to taking their attorneys word for it...I would rather believe The Sun.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on December 31, 2015, 12:18:39 PM
@DavidB: you can have whatever opinion you want: what I object to is labeling it as principle, as in principled opposition to torture.
Nowhere did I talk about Tekuma members' "principled opposition" to torture in general...

What's a "Jewish" way? death penalty for fornicating with a married women, gay sex, or not respecting the sabbath as the Halcha requires?
Not really, since it's been a thousand years since rabbinical courts lastly sentenced someone to death.

I don't think they were tortured, they had a rough investigation which I opposed (as they were not an imminent threat) as I oppose most of those rough methods when they are conducted toward Palestinians. "Torture" is a strong word, you wanna see torture you should check American methods.
All semantics.

As to taking their attorneys word for it...I would rather believe The Sun.
Ben-Gvir is a troll, yes, but that doesn't mean he could never be right.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 31, 2015, 01:05:15 PM
I never practiced human rights law here (private law is my domain), but I know the constitutional and legal framework and those claims are absurd.
A. The methods they claimed used aren't even used on Hamas men who are a "ticking bomb" hence I would doubt their use here (on Jews).
B. They do not appear to be a part of SB known repertoire which is suspicious.
C. Unlikely SB interrogators would use them considering the legal status of "torture investigations since SCoJ case 5100\94
D. I can't be considered a supporter of friend of Bennet or Religious Zionism, but he looked into it and found most of those claims to be bogus


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 01, 2016, 08:47:34 AM
First post-election poll I'm seeing today at Yediot. Take with a kg of salt and also calculate a integral bias toward Lapid and against Bibi

Likud - 25
ZU - 18
YA - 18
JAL - 13
JH - 12
YB - 8
UTJ - 7
Kulanu - 7
Shas - 6
Meretz - 6

With Gideon Saar joining Kulanu:
Likud - 21
ZU - 18
YA - 18
JAL - 13
Kulanu - 12
JH - 11
YB - 8
UTJ - 7
Shas - 6
Meretz - 6


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on January 01, 2016, 05:04:05 PM
First post of 2016 :D

Going off Hnv1's post, there were rumors of Sa'ar making his own party too? http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/205227#.Vob3JPkrLIU (or am I missing an update on this?)


Also, prayers to Tel Aviv and BDE to the confirmed deceased victims, Alon and Shimon.

And Shabbat Shalom to everyone.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 07, 2016, 11:10:44 PM
Thought I'd post a poll. January 1, conducted by Panels for Maariv and the Jerusalem Post.

What is the country's biggest problem?
45% The current wave of terror
33% Cost of living + socio-economic inequality
8% Diplomatic stalemate
4% Right-left relations
4% International isolation
2% Religious-secular relations

4% DK

Could a diplomatic agreement currently be reached with the Palestinians?
68% No
22% Yes

10% DK

What is currently the biggest danger to Israeli security?
47% Palestinian violence
24% Islamic State & radical Islam
13% Iran
7% Jewish terrorism
6% Hezbollah

3% DK

Do you believe the current wave of terrorism can be stopped?
65% Yes
28% No

7% DK

Will Iran keep its Iran deal commitments?
79% No
6% Yes

15% DK


Will there be elections in 2016?
46% Probably not
27% Probably
9% Certainly not
5% Certainly

13% DK

As expected. Most Israelis theoretically support a two-state solution, but have become deeply distrusting of the Palestinians. Many still think the socio-economic disparities and the high costs of living are the biggest problem to society; the Likud-led governments haven't done much about that. There has been much focus on Jewish terrorism lately, but still only 7% think this is the main threat to Israeli society. Despite Bibi's focus on Iran, only 13% see Iran as Israel's biggest threat. At the same time, a majority are deeply distrusting of Iran's commitment to complying with the Iran deal, which also seems to indicate that most Israelis really don't trust Obama. Most people think there won't be elections in 2016: this ideologically more coherent government hasn't had much trouble yet. Bayit Yehudi seems very eager to stay within the government and toe Netanyahu's line, probably both because of policy-related benefits and because of Bennett's big wish to make the party a more mainstream and less radical (than before) alternative to Likud.

I found this (http://www.timesofisrael.com/our-new-spymaster-and-the-demise-of-israeli-politics/) article (watch out: longread) to be very worthwhile. Maybe I'll write some more about this tomorrow.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 26, 2016, 03:24:12 PM
Kachlon his going to resign as MK so Akram Hasson could be made an MK. Akram Hasson is the head of Kadima btw and also ran in the JH primaries...so yeah Druze politicians at it again

Labour leadership run off will be at August. Shelly most likely competing, Herzog receiving quite a lot of fire in recent days for his break to the the right ('2 states not viable) with MK bar caught on tape mocking him


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on January 26, 2016, 03:46:54 PM
Kachlon his going to resign as MK so Akram Hasson could be made an MK. Akram Hasson is the head of Kadima btw and also ran in the JH primaries...so yeah Druze politicians at it again

Labour leadership run off will be at August. Shelly most likely competing, Herzog receiving quite a lot of fire in recent days for his break to the the right ('2 states not viable) with MK bar caught on tape mocking him

Kachlon will remain a minister?

Also, when did Herzog say that? Why wasn't that bigger news?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on January 26, 2016, 03:52:17 PM
Okay, Herzog appears to be adopting the old Kadima line (unilateral disengagement from the Palestinians and foregoing negotiations) rather than coming out as a one stater.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MaxQue on January 26, 2016, 06:34:40 PM
Bibi is more and more insane, accusing Ban Ki-Moon of encouraging terrorism for saying that new settlements are throwing oil on the fire.

I suppose most Westerners are encouraging terrorism, then.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MalaspinaGold on January 28, 2016, 02:33:39 AM
Okay, Herzog appears to be adopting the old Kadima line (unilateral disengagement from the Palestinians and foregoing negotiations) rather than coming out as a one stater.
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.698391 (http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.698391)
Translation: It's gonna be the best, classiest, most luxurious wall we've ever had.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 28, 2016, 04:52:23 AM
two polls from today (yeah get your salt ready)
Likud - 30
ZU - 18
Lapid - 18
JAL - 13
Liberman - 9
JH - 9
Shas -8
UTJ - 6
Meretz - 5
Kulano - 4
_______________________________________________________

Likud - 23
Lapid - 20
ZU - 16
JH - 13
JAL - 12
Kulano - 9
Liberman - 8
Meretz -7
UTJ - 6
Shas - 6


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on January 28, 2016, 05:42:12 AM
OK, this may be a stupid question, but why couldn't there be a single state of Israel and Palestine, with both peoples having equal rights... and getting along?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: dead0man on January 28, 2016, 06:45:24 AM
Because a sizable number of very violent people don't want that.  It's, apparently, better to try to appease these people instead of killing them.  The problem is, they don't want to be appeased.  They want what they want and if they don't get it, they will murder and convince others to murder.  Get rid of those people, stop making more of them and there will be peace in less than a year.

Of course even if we went with that solution, it would still be an amazingly hard road.  There are no easy answers here.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on January 28, 2016, 06:55:52 AM
OK, this may be a stupid question, but why couldn't there be a single state of Israel and Palestine, with both peoples having equal rights... and getting along?

1) Economic inequality. The Israelis are a relatively rich first world nation. The Palestinians are poor, the Gaza Palestinians specifically are at African levels of economic development. It would be like having one government to govern the populations of Missouri and Togo. Even if the people didn't initially want to kill each other, economic imbalance would bread resentment.

2) Jewish desire for ethnic supremacy. Some of this is fueled by religious fanaticism, a belief that God promised the Jewish people the land. Some of it is fueled by a belief that the Holocaust put the Jews in a unique situation where they must be the dominant group in their own country in order to prevent a future genocide. At this point though, the desire is mostly fueled by habit.

3) Islamic desire for Islamic supremacy. Hardline Palestinians want an Islamic state. They either want to expel the Jews or make them second class citizens, which of course the Jews wouldn't accept. Some secular Palestinians also want to expel the Jews although this is honestly probably exaggerated by the Israeli side.

It's probably the least least worst/only workable option though. I expect Israeli will see a swift, unexpected Soviet style collapse in the next 20 years.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 28, 2016, 01:38:16 PM
OK, this may be a stupid question, but why couldn't there be a single state of Israel and Palestine, with both peoples having equal rights... and getting along?
why can't there be a Utopian one state with a  functioning liberal democracy? well:
A. in any scenario leading up to such state rivers of bloodshed will be poured
B. neither side is yet willing to respect the other's self-determination to the required extent that a parliament of such state could function (or most "average Joes" in each side cannot cope with the notion of a single state where his side does not have the upper hand
C. I'm developing B, Israel hardly has a solid liberal section that can maintain liberal-democratic values in Israel itself (and as it seems their numbers are shrinking by the day), Palestinian society definitely doesn't have the required secular-liberal mass. The one state with liberal values will be fighting an uphill battle from its inception


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: ag on January 28, 2016, 02:58:01 PM
Because a sizable number of very violent people don't want that.  It's, apparently, better to try to appease these people instead of killing them.  The problem is, they don't want to be appeased.  They want what they want and if they don't get it, they will murder and convince others to murder.  Get rid of those people, stop making more of them and there will be peace in less than a year.

Of course even if we went with that solution, it would still be an amazingly hard road.  There are no easy answers here.

I did not expect such a strong anti-Zionist tirade from you.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on January 28, 2016, 06:55:26 PM
Could the solution be something like Belgium? That is, a relatively powerless (con)federal assembly to oversee things and solve disputes; and two powerful legislatures to run both Palestine and Israel and their respective ethnic communities (+ one more for Jerusalem, like Brussels is currently run) in their own way.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 28, 2016, 06:57:09 PM
Could the solution be something like Belgium? That is, a relatively powerless (con)federal assembly to oversee things and solve disputes; and two powerful legislatures to run both Palestine and Israel and their respective ethnic communities (+ one more for Jerusalem, like Brussels is currently run) in their own way.
This is still (roughly) my preferred "solution".


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MalaspinaGold on January 28, 2016, 10:53:30 PM
Could the solution be something like Belgium? That is, a relatively powerless (con)federal assembly to oversee things and solve disputes; and two powerful legislatures to run both Palestine and Israel and their respective ethnic communities (+ one more for Jerusalem, like Brussels is currently run) in their own way.

Didn't Belgium just go two and a half years without a government or something? Somehow I don't see Israel and Palestine doing any better.
And, at that point, why bother having unity if it's just cosmetic?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on January 28, 2016, 11:08:41 PM
It's probably the least least worst/only workable option though. I expect Israeli will see a swift, unexpected Soviet style collapse in the next 20 years.
Maybe in 50 years, tho I think even that would be considerably early for such an event. While the status quo is hardly desirable, for the average Israeli, it is tolerable.  I'm not seeing any news of Jewish emigration from Israel, and I suspect those who care about such statistics would probably tell us we're still seeing net immigration to Israel. Israel's neighbors are in a mess, and it will take them at least a generation for them to straighten things out so that they can begin to close the gap with Israel, let alone begin to cause it enuf concern that a collapse of the current State of Israel could occur. Even then, if said 'collapse' happened that soon, it would be of Zionist democracy and its replacement by Zionist dictatorship and/or theocracy.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Vosem on January 29, 2016, 01:33:32 AM
Because a sizable number of very violent people don't want that.  It's, apparently, better to try to appease these people instead of killing them.  The problem is, they don't want to be appeased.  They want what they want and if they don't get it, they will murder and convince others to murder.  Get rid of those people, stop making more of them and there will be peace in less than a year.

Of course even if we went with that solution, it would still be an amazingly hard road.  There are no easy answers here.

I did not expect such a strong anti-Zionist tirade from you.

I suggest you read the paragraph again :)

It's probably the least least worst/only workable option though. I expect Israeli will see a swift, unexpected Soviet style collapse in the next 20 years.

Israel will not see a "Soviet-style" collapse because Israel (especially if, like most people in this thread seem to, you define Israel by pre-1967 borders) is not a geographically polarized multinational state. As Ernest also pointed out, the only force that comes remotely close to being able to topple the current Israeli system is further-right-wing Zionists (and in any scenario where they come to power it is one where they have reached an understanding with America and continue to benefit from American support); at no point in the history of the entire State of Israel has it been more safe from outside threats.

This constant prediction of Israel's impending collapse even as it continues to strengthen strongly reminds me of medieval European attitudes towards the Ottoman Empire. Even at its very peak, when Suleiman the Magnificent was reigning, medieval European sources were totally, utterly confident that the state was on the verge of collapse. (I suppose they did turn out to be right, in a sense; the state was ultimately replaced 300 years later by a more nationalist entity).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: dead0man on January 29, 2016, 06:36:16 AM
AND Israel's economy is rockin'.  There are a lot of countries more likely than Israel to collapse in the next twenty years.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Lurker on January 29, 2016, 08:17:27 AM
Could the solution be something like Belgium? That is, a relatively powerless (con)federal assembly to oversee things and solve disputes; and two powerful legislatures to run both Palestine and Israel and their respective ethnic communities (+ one more for Jerusalem, like Brussels is currently run) in their own way.

Don't see how this would solve, say, the problem of the settlements.

I think the long-time hatred between the two groups are far too powerful for any "Belgian" solution to conceivably work, at least for the foreseeable future. Still, any other proposed solutions seems just as unrealistic...


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 29, 2016, 08:31:21 AM
K maybe this board need a different Israel-Palestine thread where everybody can post and be right all the time with their flawless geopolitical analysis and in this thread we could discuss Israeli politics?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on February 05, 2016, 11:47:31 AM
With all due respect, it is really a major issue in your country's politics.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on February 05, 2016, 01:10:01 PM
A Poll of Israelis about the US presidential election:
Clinton: 41%
Trump: 14%
Cruz: 7%
Sanders: 5%
Rubio: 4%
No Opinion: 29%

obviously, it's mostly about name recognition at this point.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on February 05, 2016, 01:38:58 PM
It was recently revealed that Bernie Sanders volunteered at Kibbutz Sha'ar Ha'amakim in his youth, so I thought I would check their voting in the last election:
ZU: 55.3%
Meretz: 34.2%
Yesh Atid: 6.7%
Kulanu: 1.4%
Green Leaf: 0.9%
Likud: 0.7%

Yeah, not very surprising.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 05, 2016, 04:13:25 PM
It was recently revealed that Bernie Sanders volunteered at Kibbutz Sha'ar Ha'amakim in his youth, so I thought I would check their voting in the last election:
ZU: 55.3%
Meretz: 34.2%
Yesh Atid: 6.7%
Kulanu: 1.4%
Green Leaf: 0.9%
Likud: 0.7%

Yeah, not very surprising.
It was actually once a "capital" kibbutz for Hashomer Hatzair and Mapam and a strong Meretz voting hub. But like many Kibutzim of Mapam it drifted strongly toward Labour. There are still some very left wing Mapam Kibutzim out there but the general trend had been toward Labour. During the 60's though...it was hard to the left and they still held strong Marxist-Leninist views and USSR links.

Also, since this was revealed it caused quite a stir. The Sanders campaign did some tremendous efforts to conceal the identity of the Kibutz he was in (and his brother even flat out lied). Many conspiracy theories sprung as Sanders also divorced his first wife after they left...some suggested checking to see who was born some 9 months later


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on February 05, 2016, 05:26:37 PM
It was actually once a "capital" kibbutz for Hashomer Hatzair and Mapam and a strong Meretz voting hub. But like many Kibutzim of Mapam it drifted strongly toward Labour. There are still some very left wing Mapam Kibutzim out there but the general trend had been toward Labour. During the 60's though...it was hard to the left and they still held strong Marxist-Leninist views and USSR links.

Also, since this was revealed it caused quite a stir. The Sanders campaign did some tremendous efforts to conceal the identity of the Kibutz he was in (and his brother even flat out lied). Many conspiracy theories sprung as Sanders also divorced his first wife after they left...some suggested checking to see who was born some 9 months later

Very odd that he would try to conceal that, I don't see why that Kibbutz would matter over another.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on February 05, 2016, 07:09:14 PM
Very odd that he would try to conceal that, I don't see why that Kibbutz would matter over another.
Because it makes it much more "tangible" for people. It it not just an idea anymore if you have a name, it is actually something you can look up, find pictures of, et cetera. It is very real.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on February 05, 2016, 07:23:01 PM
Even though Sanders is the most Israeli critical of all the serious presidential candidates, a lot of holier than thou leftists who are always anxious to call people out want to pin him as being pro-Israel. This is a major problem because most young people in America (his base) are basically pro-Hamas.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on February 05, 2016, 07:37:11 PM
Even though Sanders is the most Israeli critical of all the serious presidential candidates, a lot of holier than thou leftists who are always anxious to call people out want to pin him as being pro-Israel. This is a major problem because most young people in America (his base) are basically pro-Hamas.

Yeah, there's been a lot of fairly explicit anti-semitism surrounding Sanders and Israel. It's very clear they're holding him to a completely different standard than Clinton, to say nothing of the Republicans.

Diane Rehm's "Secret dual citizenship" thing was probably the most blatant moment.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on February 05, 2016, 09:10:10 PM
[M]ost young people in America (his base) are basically pro-Hamas.

Maybe if you define pro-Hamas as not seeing why America should prop up a successful first world country such as Israel.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on February 05, 2016, 09:21:45 PM
[M]ost young people in America (his base) are basically pro-Hamas.

Maybe if you define pro-Hamas as not seeing why America should prop up a successful first world country such as Israel.

No, I define being pro-Hamas as thinking Hamas is a "legitimate political party", a "left-wing force", and that their violence is generally understandable if not justified. Coupled with views that Zionism is inherently racist and that Israel has no right to exist as a Jewish state. These are pretty mainstream views among young people now.

Some of these feelings are inspired by bad US and Israeli policy. Most of them though are just a result of the dominant strains in campus culture. It doesn't matter if a Palestinian kills an Israeli child with a knife. The Israeli child probably had access to a cell phone, the internet, and a house with insulation. The Palestinian doesn't have those things so he is oppressed and thus, he is in the right. Who is more oppressed is the only moral logic that matters, at least that's what most young people think.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MaxQue on February 05, 2016, 09:49:04 PM
[M]ost young people in America (his base) are basically pro-Hamas.

Maybe if you define pro-Hamas as not seeing why America should prop up a successful first world country such as Israel.

Ignore Mortimer, he usually talks nonsense and he apparently didn't set foot in an university since long.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on February 05, 2016, 11:32:17 PM
You're right. I haven't been in college in about 10 years. Back then, they didn't teach this type of stuff, or if they did, it was just a few professors and nobody bought it, they just feigned it for a few papers until the semester was over. Now it's universally taught and universally believed.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Seneca on February 06, 2016, 01:03:21 AM
You're right. I haven't been in college in about 10 years. Back then, they didn't teach this type of stuff, or if they did, it was just a few professors and nobody bought it, they just feigned it for a few papers until the semester was over. Now it's universally taught and universally believed.


The vulgar version of privilege theory you are referencing is absolutely not "universally taught" in college classrooms. Not by a long-shot. That ideology permeates within left activist circles well enough on its own; it doesn't need any help from that old Marxist Professor canard.

That said, vulgar privilege theory, what I'll call VPT for short, has absolutely been disastrous within the left. If I was conspiracy minded I might blame a Frank Luntz type spinster for inventing the thing. An obvious example of how VPT has damaged leftist politics can be found in the Occupy general assemblies. As in all large assemblies of equals, the initial participants found it necessary to appoint officers to insure conversation flowed and no one dominated speaking time. We might refer to the officer charged with facilitating the assembly as the "stack taker," as one of their primary roles would be to note who wished to speak so as to prevent 50 people from standing around with their hands raised, each thinking it as their turn to speak next. Unfortunately, as a consequence of VPT, certain activists introduced the idea of "Progressive stack."

Progressive stack incorporates the idea of privilege hierarchies into stack taking. In this system, those viewed as "most oppressed," that is to say non-whites, women, LGBT people, etc. were moved above their white, male, straight, etc. counterparts. As you might imagine, this well-meaning change proved disastrous. The supposedly privileged groups typically respond to progressive stack in one of two ways; they interpret it as a personal attack and leave the group, or the become passive. Each reaction weakens the assembly. Then, the supposedly "oppressed" people monopolize speaking time, oftentimes soap-boxing in the faces of facilitators who are too timid to cut them off. This time-wasting fatally damages the movement, causing the general assembly, which initially came together to accomplish some goals, to spin apart into a much smaller echo-chamber.

This style of politics is fundamentally impotent. VPT paralyzes social movements, encouraging an ideological discourse which is simultaneously guilt-ridden and paranoid. It is remarkably similar to the vulgar Maoism that infected the US left in the late sixties and early seventies. Just replace "check your privilege" with "criticize, self criticize" and you're most of the way there. If you're not a member of the activist left, I would frankly be overjoyed that VPT is becoming hegemonic within that political sphere. All a VPT inspired left will ever be is a punching bag for opposition groups, like the reactionaries who in recent years have taken over sites like reddit with rhetoric which demonizes the "SJWs" but which also carries clear white-supremacist and neo-fascist impulses.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 06, 2016, 05:03:14 AM
A Poll of Israelis about the US presidential election:
Clinton: 41%
Trump: 14%
Cruz: 7%
Sanders: 5%
Rubio: 4%
No Opinion: 29%

obviously, it's mostly about name recognition at this point.
This. The average Israeli is very ignorant of American politics and he gets his info from Yediot or Israel Hayom. Yediot with their Haim Saban ties are very pro Clinton, and Israel Hayom like Sheldon Adelson is undecided yet. Trump is a populist and anti-muslim like some Israelis like, Clinton is very familiar and Bill was very popular here.
Sanders on the other hand gets mentioned only in Haaretz (though not to fondly) and is supported by facebook left wing dorks.

But my bet is Bibi would like either Rubio or Clinton to win with the former of course the first preference.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on February 06, 2016, 09:49:24 AM
But my bet is Bibi would like either Rubio or Clinton to win with the former of course the first preference.
Bibi would obviously prefer Cruz over Clinton as well.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 06, 2016, 11:03:34 AM
But my bet is Bibi would like either Rubio or Clinton to win with the former of course the first preference.
Bibi would obviously prefer Cruz over Clinton as well.
I'm not sure about it. Clinton is not going to cause him any problems regarding the Palestinian issue and will provide a stronger shield than what a Cruz regime could muster around the world. Clinton could block off European initiatives Cruz couldn't.

The interesting question is who would he least prefer Trump or Sanders.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on February 06, 2016, 11:10:26 AM
I'm not sure about it. Clinton is not going to cause him any problems regarding the Palestinian issue and will provide a stronger shield than what a Cruz regime could muster around the world. Clinton could block off European initiatives Cruz couldn't.
I am not at all sure about this. The Democratic Party is changing and it is not going to return to the pre-Obama status-quo on Israel. A Clinton administration would be likely to push for new peace negotiations. A Cruz administration would not.

The interesting question is who would he least prefer Trump or Sanders.
This is a very hard question for me as well, and I hope it will not become relevant.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on February 07, 2016, 05:29:05 PM
I'm not sure about it. Clinton is not going to cause him any problems regarding the Palestinian issue and will provide a stronger shield than what a Cruz regime could muster around the world. Clinton could block off European initiatives Cruz couldn't.
I am not at all sure about this. The Democratic Party is changing and it is not going to return to the pre-Obama status-quo on Israel. A Clinton administration would be likely to push for new peace negotiations. A Cruz administration would not.
Without some change on the part of the Israelis or the Palestinians, regardless of whether negotiations are held, there will be no change in the official situation.  I don't see Clinton doing anything beyond jaw-jaw to try and bring the two sides together.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: dead0man on February 09, 2016, 09:17:47 AM
Good news!  4 Hamas tunnels have collapsed in the last two weeks killing 10.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on February 19, 2016, 04:54:24 PM
New poll from Maariv:

Likud: 27
Yesh Atid: 18
ZU: 15
Joint List: 12
Jewish Home: 12
Yisrael Beitenu: 10
Shas: 7
UTJ: 6
Kulanu: 6
Meretz: 6


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on February 20, 2016, 11:50:46 AM
Herzogmentum! :3 The YUGE WALL proposal didn't really work for him, did it? Maybe it's because he's too low energy.

Right/religious parties at 72 seats (without Kulanu). Wonder when Zehut is going to take off and going to be polled.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 22, 2016, 04:29:44 AM
inter election polls in Israel are only good to spot trends and the only clear ones here is Herzog's fall and Liberman's relative revival. Like always before a GE all sorts of gimmicks occur and we get a different electoral map.

Doubt Zehut will poll more than 2-3


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on March 09, 2016, 01:50:05 PM
Channel one poll:

Likud: 25
Yesh Atid: 21
ZU: 15
Joint List: 13
Jewish Home: 12
Yisrael Beitenu: 8
UTJ: 7
Shas: 7
Meretz: 6
Kulanu: 6

The biggest change being the collapse of ZU (Herzog has been terrible) with the lost votes being gained by Lapid.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 09, 2016, 02:32:16 PM
This (http://knessetjeremy.com/2016/03/04/my-weekend-perspective-the-key-to-defeating-netanyahu-is-phase-2/) is a fairly interesting article about the only remotely realistic way in which centrist/center-leftist parties might be able to oust Netanyahu.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on March 09, 2016, 06:19:46 PM
This (http://knessetjeremy.com/2016/03/04/my-weekend-perspective-the-key-to-defeating-netanyahu-is-phase-2/) is a fairly interesting article about the only remotely realistic way in which centrist/center-leftist parties might be able to oust Netanyahu.

Interesting article, but the word "curious" appeared waaaay too many time in this piece haha


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 09, 2016, 06:43:43 PM
This (http://knessetjeremy.com/2016/03/04/my-weekend-perspective-the-key-to-defeating-netanyahu-is-phase-2/) is a fairly interesting article about the only remotely realistic way in which centrist/center-leftist parties might be able to oust Netanyahu.
Interesting article, but the word "curious" appeared waaaay too many time in this piece haha
Yeah, he's generally not the best writer. Maybe that's why he moved to Israel :) Still, his #analysis is often pretty good.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 21, 2016, 02:03:28 PM
Even though Sanders is the most Israeli critical of all the serious presidential candidates, a lot of holier than thou leftists who are always anxious to call people out want to pin him as being pro-Israel. This is a major problem because most young people in America (his base) are basically pro-Hamas.

This Sanders supporter is Pro-Palestine. I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm against the terrorist state that is Israel. They're a parasitic country. The United States owes Israel nothing. My allegiance is to America, not Israel.

Remember: Israel needs America. Not the other way around.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Vosem on March 21, 2016, 05:34:29 PM
Even though Sanders is the most Israeli critical of all the serious presidential candidates, a lot of holier than thou leftists who are always anxious to call people out want to pin him as being pro-Israel. This is a major problem because most young people in America (his base) are basically pro-Hamas.

This Sanders supporter is Pro-Palestine. I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm against the terrorist state that is Israel. They're a parasitic country. The United States owes Israel nothing. My allegiance is to America, not Israel.

Remember: Israel needs America. Not the other way around.

Well, aren't you charming.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Comrade Funk on March 21, 2016, 06:09:00 PM
Israel is probably the only country that would rather want Trump more than even Hillary. We need to stop acting like they're our brothers and start treating them like other countries. I'm so sick of Israeli hypocrisy over the Jewish state nonsense while grabbing more land. It only hurts Americans.

Is there any center-leftist that can run for Labor leadership and win? At least give us some hope instead of replaying the cycle


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 21, 2016, 06:15:29 PM
Even though Sanders is the most Israeli critical of all the serious presidential candidates, a lot of holier than thou leftists who are always anxious to call people out want to pin him as being pro-Israel. This is a major problem because most young people in America (his base) are basically pro-Hamas.

This Sanders supporter is Pro-Palestine. I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm against the terrorist state that is Israel. They're a parasitic country. The United States owes Israel nothing. My allegiance is to America, not Israel.

Remember: Israel needs America. Not the other way around.

Well, aren't you charming.


I'm speaking the truth. AIPAC are complete scum who pull puppet strings in this country.

I'm proud to say I do not stand with Israel.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 21, 2016, 06:20:54 PM
Israel is probably the only country that would rather want Trump more than even Hillary. We need to stop acting like they're our brothers and start treating them like other countries. I'm so sick of Israeli hypocrisy over the Jewish state nonsense while grabbing more land. It only hurts Americans.

Is there any center-leftist that can run for Labor leadership and win? At least give us some hope instead of replaying the cycle



Criticizing Israel is an unofficial crime in this country. We need someone to stand up to their atrocities.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Vosem on March 21, 2016, 07:33:07 PM
You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 21, 2016, 07:44:36 PM
You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies? That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They were. That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

Let Israel stand for themselves. Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL. I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on March 21, 2016, 07:58:14 PM
Let CiF style 'debate' remain on CiF and let Atlas be Atlas.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on March 21, 2016, 08:44:58 PM
You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies? That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They wire. That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

Let Israel stand for themselves. Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL. I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.

I mean, all the rest of this garbage aside, let's not pretend that if Israel "led the fight against ISIL" by hitting them with overwhelming force, you would do anything but call them the new Hitler.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on March 21, 2016, 09:04:37 PM
You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies? That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They wire. That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

Let Israel stand for themselves. Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL. I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.

These are attitudes common among Bernie supporters and under 30s in general. Israel will not be able to count on unconditional US support for much longer.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 21, 2016, 09:14:57 PM
You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies? That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They wire. That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

Let Israel stand for themselves. Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL. I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.

I mean, all the rest of this garbage aside, let's not pretend that if Israel "led the fight against ISIL" by hitting them with overwhelming force, you would do anything but call them the new Hitler.

ISIL is the enemy. Netanyahu contributed to their rise. Let him help take them out with us.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 21, 2016, 09:18:42 PM
You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies? That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They wire. That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

Let Israel stand for themselves. Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL. I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.

These are attitudes common among Bernie supporters and under 30s in general. Israel will not be able to count on unconditional US support for much longer.

I was against Israel before I even knew who Bernie was. Many of my fellow Americans and myself have been indoctrinated into thinking Israel is so wonderful. Then I learned about the demolitions they have done and the Palestinians they have imprisoned. It made me second guess everything.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on March 21, 2016, 09:31:26 PM
You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies? That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They wire. That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

Let Israel stand for themselves. Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL. I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.

I mean, all the rest of this garbage aside, let's not pretend that if Israel "led the fight against ISIL" by hitting them with overwhelming force, you would do anything but call them the new Hitler.

ISIL is the enemy. Netanyahu contributed to their rise. Let him help take them out with us.

Explain how Netanyahu contributed to ISIL's rise.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 21, 2016, 09:40:48 PM
You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies? That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They wire. That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

Let Israel stand for themselves. Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL. I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.

I mean, all the rest of this garbage aside, let's not pretend that if Israel "led the fight against ISIL" by hitting them with overwhelming force, you would do anything but call them the new Hitler.

ISIL is the enemy. Netanyahu contributed to their rise. Let him help take them out with us.

Explain how Netanyahu contributed to ISIL's rise.

Supporting the U.S. to go to war and topple Saddam, which in turn helped contribute to their rise.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on March 21, 2016, 09:45:23 PM
You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies? That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They wire. That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

Let Israel stand for themselves. Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL. I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.

I mean, all the rest of this garbage aside, let's not pretend that if Israel "led the fight against ISIL" by hitting them with overwhelming force, you would do anything but call them the new Hitler.

ISIL is the enemy. Netanyahu contributed to their rise. Let him help take them out with us.

Explain how Netanyahu contributed to ISIL's rise.

Supporting the U.S. to go to war and topple Saddam, which in turn helped contribute to their rise.

"Standing alongside the US" is hardly some special thing. A whole lot of countries did that.

And I'm sure Israel would be more than happy to aid in killing the scum of ISIL, except that the rest of the anti-ISIL coalition doesn't want their help. The presence of Israel tends to inflame the "Arab street" and would likely rally them to ISIL's side.

Israel doesn't owe anyone anything for supporting the US/UK side in Iraq, but regardless of that, there's reasons they don't take an active role in the fight against ISIL, and it's not because they don't care about the threat.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Vosem on March 21, 2016, 09:45:57 PM
You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies? That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They wire. That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

Let Israel stand for themselves. Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL. I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.

These are attitudes common among Bernie supporters and under 30s in general. Israel will not be able to count on unconditional US support for much longer.

Nah, they're not. America is moving towards greater support for Israel, not less, which you can clearly see in polling over the last 15 years. College left-wing activists hate Israel, but then again, they have ever since that became fashionable in the 1980s.

You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies?

Let me go through this post claim by claim.

That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They were.

Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir used some unsavory tactics against the British colonizers, I won't deny that, but then so has every other independence movement in history. Regardless, two men who used unsavory tactics 70 years ago and were last relevant in the Israeli leadership more than 25 years ago don't explain why we shouldn't support Israel now.

That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

If you really think Israel is oppressing Palestinian children, as opposed to the government that bans music and uses them as human shields, you need to rethink your entire worldview. Ayelet Shaked is Justice Minister and has nothing to do with treatment of Palestinian leadership.


Why? Why should we give up on a fantastic ally that has been unfairly maligned for its entire existence for entirely racist reasons?

Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL.

Unfortunately, the folks on the frontlines against ISIL are unwilling to fight alongside the evil Zionists. If this were not the case, you can rest assured Israel would be there.

I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.

First of all -- divestment (which I had the great pleasure to speak out against earlier today at a student government event here at OSU) is an absolutely terrible idea, especially because it would disproportionately hurt the exact same Palestinian children you seemed so concerned about just a few short sentences ago (since many, many Israeli companies employ Palestinians). The leadership of the Palestinian Authority have spoken out against it numerous times over. Unless you're both very anti-Semitic and very anti-Arab/Islamophobic, there's zero reason for you to support divestment.

You keep mentioning the evil atrocities. I'll accept there were crimes committed during the 1940s and 1950s (though they were far outweighed by the reverse ones, and ultimately justified in the context of the time), but I challenge you to find a single one after 1960.

Finally, I long to see the day when the present Gazan leadership is at the Hague (or, even better: put up against the wall by the people they've been oppressing since 2007). Israel will never be there, as you well know.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 21, 2016, 10:03:52 PM
You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies? That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They wire. That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

Let Israel stand for themselves. Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL. I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.

These are attitudes common among Bernie supporters and under 30s in general. Israel will not be able to count on unconditional US support for much longer.

Nah, they're not. America is moving towards greater support for Israel, not less, which you can clearly see in polling over the last 15 years. College left-wing activists hate Israel, but then again, they have ever since that became fashionable in the 1980s.

You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies?

Let me go through this post claim by claim.

That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They were.

Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir used some unsavory tactics against the British colonizers, I won't deny that, but then so has every other independence movement in history. Regardless, two men who used unsavory tactics 70 years ago and were last relevant in the Israeli leadership more than 25 years ago don't explain why we shouldn't support Israel now.

That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

If you really think Israel is oppressing Palestinian children, as opposed to the government that bans music and uses them as human shields, you need to rethink your entire worldview. Ayelet Shaked is Justice Minister and has nothing to do with treatment of Palestinian leadership.


Why? Why should we give up on a fantastic ally that has been unfairly maligned for its entire existence for entirely racist reasons?

Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL.

Unfortunately, the folks on the frontlines against ISIL are unwilling to fight alongside the evil Zionists. If this were not the case, you can rest assured Israel would be there.

I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.

First of all -- divestment (which I had the great pleasure to speak out against earlier today at a student government event here at OSU) is an absolutely terrible idea, especially because it would disproportionately hurt the exact same Palestinian children you seemed so concerned about just a few short sentences ago (since many, many Israeli companies employ Palestinians). The leadership of the Palestinian Authority have spoken out against it numerous times over. Unless you're both very anti-Semitic and very anti-Arab/Islamophobic, there's zero reason for you to support divestment.

You keep mentioning the evil atrocities. I'll accept there were crimes committed during the 1940s and 1950s (though they were far outweighed by the reverse ones, and ultimately justified in the context of the time), but I challenge you to find a single one after 1960.

Finally, I long to see the day when the present Gazan leadership is at the Hague (or, even better: put up against the wall by the people they've been oppressing since 2007). Israel will never be there, as you well know.


Israel will only never be there as long as AIPAC has a firm grip on American politics. Almost every other country around the world can see Israel's crimes. I'm sure we do, but criticizing Israel in this country is an unofficial crime in and of itself.

Israel is not an ally. It is a parasitic nation. Every parasite needs a host to survive. The United States, unfortunately, is that host. I'm not arguing for the destruction if Israel but rather repercussions for the things they have done.

As far as post 1960 goes, just look up the number of UN resolutions they have violated.

Keep in mind I'm not a fan of Sharia Law by any stretch of the imagination. Let's not pretend like Israel is this perfect country that does no wrong. I saw a story last year of an Israeli politician advocating for segregated roads between the two groups. That's apartheid.

Did you read the comments Shaked made? That is advocating of genocide. It's evil. It's ugly. Begin and Shamir were no different than Bibi. The Likud Party brings out a lot of ugliness in Israel. Begin getting the Peace Prize was a joke.

I will not stand with Israel. We owe them absolutely nothing. It's not being anti-Semitic. It's not me being anti-Muslim. This is complete injustice on their end and our hands are tied. If only the politicians in this country all united and rebelled against AIPAC.

My allegiance is to America. Not Israel.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 21, 2016, 10:10:51 PM
Yawn. New trashposter spotted. Enjoy ignore, Berniebro.

This thread is about politics in Israel, not about your irrelevant opinion of Israel.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 21, 2016, 10:15:16 PM
Feel free to ignore me all you'd like. If there's really justice out there, and I believe there is, people will take a stand against Israel and they'll be punished.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Vosem on March 21, 2016, 10:43:06 PM
Yawn. New trashposter spotted. Enjoy ignore, Berniebro.

This thread is about politics in Israel, not about your irrelevant opinion of Israel.

God grant me, some day, this attitude when I read ignorance.

Israel will only never be there as long as AIPAC has a firm grip on American politics. Almost every other country around the world can see Israel's crimes.

Except with a few Western European nations, Israel is at the best place, diplomatically, it's been in a long time. It has back-channel relations with numerous Arab nations (especially those that are also very anti-Iran), it has great relations with the US, with India, China, and Russia. And even in Europe, you still have great relations with Germany and Britain. The times when large sections of the world refused to recognize Israel are over, and they're not coming back.

I'm sure we do, but criticizing Israel in this country is an unofficial crime in and of itself.

Not at all. I was just at an event where a bunch of people spoke out in favor of Divest. Criticizing Israel isn't popular because they're on the right, moral side of a conflict that has plagued them for far too long, and everyone recognizes that.

Israel is not an ally. It is a parasitic nation. Every parasite needs a host to survive. The United States, unfortunately, is that host.

Israel was created without US backing and didn't obtain significant US backing until after the first 20 years of its existence. It's a modern, vibrant, First World nation that escaped the last recession and is one of the 10 most militarily powerful nations in the world. Israel could survive without its alliance with the US (though it would be much harder), and certainly benefits much more from it than the US does (though Israeli advances in military and other technology have greatly benefited the US), but its dishonest to say the US doesn't benefit from the alliance as well and its dishonest to say there is not a compelling moral reason to continue it.

I'm not arguing for the destruction if Israel but rather repercussions for the things they have done.

As far as post 1960 goes, just look up the number of UN resolutions they have violated.

Ah, yes. It's not like a UN resolution has ever been taken back or apologized for, and it's not like the US isn't made up of perfectly moral actors who have never done anything wrong. Certainly no dictatorships or otherwise imperfect regimes have membership in that body.

Keep in mind I'm not a fan of Sharia Law by any stretch of the imagination. Let's not pretend like Israel is this perfect country that does no wrong. I saw a story last year of an Israeli politician advocating for segregated roads between the two groups. That's apartheid.

Hey, I heard a story about an American politician who wanted to prevent all Muslims from entering the country. That's racism.

You can't tar an entire country based on one politician.

Did you read the comments Shaked made? That is advocating of genocide. It's evil. It's ugly. Begin and Shamir were no different than Bibi. The Likud Party brings out a lot of ugliness in Israel. Begin getting the Peace Prize was a joke.

Shaked has made a lot of comments, and I don't know about the ones you're referring to. Begin and Shamir were members of a revolutionary organization, the Irgun, that ceased being active after 1948. The Likud Party is a mainstream right-wing party (of which Shaked is not a member, incidentally), whose leadership supports the two-state solution and creation of Palestine (though the party rank-and-file, and other politicians, are split) which is not really extremist in any meaningful way. Extremist politicians do exist in Israel, on the left and right, but you can't tar the entire country based on them.

I do agree with your point about Begin receiving the Peace Prize -- not because I think he was some evil man (quite the reverse), but because I don't think it should go to politicians, rather jailed dissidents and artists who deserve attention much more and receive it much less. But much worse figures than Begin have received it (Yasser Arafat and Le Duc Tho, for a start), so there's other places to begin complaining at.

I will not stand with Israel. We owe them absolutely nothing. It's not being anti-Semitic. It's not me being anti-Muslim. This is complete injustice on their end and our hands are tied. If only the politicians in this country all united and rebelled against AIPAC.

My allegiance is to America. Not Israel.

This is just meaningless platitudes that don't address actual issues at all. Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia do not exist in a vacuum, supporting certain political platforms strengthens them (just as the trump campaign as a whole is racist, even if far from every individual trump supporter is a racist). AIPAC's success and America's alliance with Israel have also not taken place in a vacuum.

Feel free to ignore me all you'd like. If there's really justice out there, and I believe there is, people will take a stand against Israel and they'll be punished.

If there were justice out there, buddy, Hamas wouldn't exist, never mind control their own dystopian city-state.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on March 21, 2016, 11:04:35 PM
Support for Israel is increasing? That's just delusional.

Also, I'm wondering how that bizarre claim is supposed to dovetail with the ever present Jewish claim that "anti-Semitism is on the rise!"


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Vosem on March 21, 2016, 11:30:39 PM
Support for Israel is increasing? That's just delusional.

I don't know about "are increasing now", but they've definitely seen a very real increase over the past 10 years.

()

Also, I'm wondering how that bizarre claim is supposed to dovetail with the ever present Jewish claim that "anti-Semitism is on the rise!"

Worldwide, not in America. But, still, both of those things are capable of occurring simultaneously. Only a small percentage of anti-Semites are responsible for anti-Semitic incidents, and it's perfectly plausible for that small percentage to increase even as society as a whole becomes better educated and more tolerant.

()


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Comrade Funk on March 21, 2016, 11:39:47 PM
You can't really discuss Israeli politics without discussing American politics because the United States of America is the only thing keeping Israel safe from repercussions of their policies. The only ones who made Israel a partisan issue are Israeli governments who condoned expansionist policies into an Arab-dominated area (post-67), while harping on about how Israel must remain Jewish even as it absorbs and takes Arab land. Of course Netanyahu made it worse by actively supporting the political rival of the sitting head of state in 2012. If he (or any belligerent right-winger) continues to hold on to power, Israel will lose the Democratic Party and rightfully so. Now, some would assume if you're against Israel, you're somehow pro-Hamas. I can't believe I have to say this, but being anti-Israel in some regards doesn't mean anyone condones Palestinian terrorism. One can be against Israeli imperial expansion as well as Palestinian Islamic terrorism, while supporting the level-headed people (I understand there are probably more in Israel, but even that's dwindling) instead.

I'm Jewish and I care about Israel like any immigrant would care about their 'homeland', which is why I actually hope that there is some miracle and Israel somehow elects someone sane and reasonable. That means no BS about building more settlements for "security". Probably won't happen, but hey call me an idealist. Thank god I get to live in America and we don't have to deal with this crap.

Edit: Unless the Donald is elected ofc!


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on March 21, 2016, 11:43:58 PM
You can't really discuss Israeli politics without discussing American politics because the United States of America is the only thing keeping Israel safe from repercussions of their policies. The only ones who made Israel a partisan issue are Israeli governments who condoned expansionist policies into an Arab-dominated area (post-67), while harping on about how Israel must remain Jewish even as it absorbs and takes Arab land. Of course Netanyahu made it worse by actively supporting the political rival of the sitting head of state in 2012. If he (or any belligerent right-winger) continues to hold on to power, Israel will lose the Democratic Party and rightfully so. Now, some would assume if you're against Israel, you're somehow pro-Hamas. I can't believe I have to say this, but being anti-Israel in some regards doesn't mean anyone condones Palestinian terrorism. One can be against Israeli imperial expansion as well as Palestinian Islamic terrorism, while supporting the level-headed people (I understand there are probably more in Israel, but even that's dwindling) instead.

I'm Jewish and I care about Israel like any immigrant would care about their 'homeland', which is why I actually hope that there is some miracle and Israel somehow elects someone sane and reasonable. That means no BS about building more settlements for "security". Probably won't happen, but hey call me an idealist. Thank god I get to live in America and we don't have to deal with this crap.

Edit: Unless the Donald is elected ofc!

Opposing Israel doesn't mean you're necessarily pro-Hamas. Most young people are though. Look at the guy in this thread. He hasn't said a word about Hamas but he's mad because some MK made a racist Facebook status.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Comrade Funk on March 21, 2016, 11:50:52 PM
()

()

Unless young people (who overwhelmingly support the Democrats) radically change their political opinions, then I do think Israel has a lot to worry about.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Ebsy on March 22, 2016, 12:10:29 AM
I do find it mildly amusing that the one Jew in the race for the White House seems to be the most out of touch when in comes to Jewish public opinion in the United States. His AIPAC speech, from Utah of all places, was pretty embarrassing.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Gass3268 on March 22, 2016, 01:08:11 AM
I do find it mildly amusing that the one Jew in the race for the White House seems to be the most out of touch when in comes to Jewish public opinion in the United States. His AIPAC speech, from Utah of all places, was pretty embarrassing.

I was never prouder to be a Sanders supporter than today when he skipped AIPAC. The remarks Clinton made were nauseating and it really making it hard for me to want to pull the leaver for her in November. Thank God for groups like J-Street are starting to create a counterbalance the nonsense coming from the right.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Ebsy on March 22, 2016, 01:38:48 AM
I do find it mildly amusing that the one Jew in the race for the White House seems to be the most out of touch when in comes to Jewish public opinion in the United States. His AIPAC speech, from Utah of all places, was pretty embarrassing.

I was never prouder to be a Sanders supporter than today when he skipped AIPAC. The remarks Clinton made were nauseating and it really making it hard for me to want to pull the leaver for her in November. Thank God for groups like J-Street are starting to create a counterbalance the nonsense coming from the right.

I very much doubt the J-Street would prefer Sanders over Clinton, considering their most prominent founder/donor is George Soros.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Gass3268 on March 22, 2016, 01:46:48 AM
I do find it mildly amusing that the one Jew in the race for the White House seems to be the most out of touch when in comes to Jewish public opinion in the United States. His AIPAC speech, from Utah of all places, was pretty embarrassing.

I was never prouder to be a Sanders supporter than today when he skipped AIPAC. The remarks Clinton made were nauseating and it really making it hard for me to want to pull the leaver for her in November. Thank God for groups like J-Street are starting to create a counterbalance the nonsense coming from the right.

I very much doubt the J-Street would prefer Sanders over Clinton, considering their most prominent founder/donor is George Soros.

Oh, I don't doubt J-Street prefers Clinton to Sanders. My statement was that I was happy there was the the creation of a liberal pro-Israel/pro-Peace/pro-Two State Solution group to counter the craziness that comes out of the AIPAC.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: dead0man on March 22, 2016, 04:20:03 AM
You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies? That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They wire. That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

Let Israel stand for themselves. Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL. I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.

I mean, all the rest of this garbage aside, let's not pretend that if Israel "led the fight against ISIL" by hitting them with overwhelming force, you would do anything but call them the new Hitler.

ISIL is the enemy. Netanyahu contributed to their rise. Let him help take them out with us.

Explain how Netanyahu contributed to ISIL's rise.

Supporting the U.S. to go to war and topple Saddam, which in turn helped contribute to their rise.
ahahahahaahahahahahaahah




<inhale>




hahaahahahaha


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: dead0man on March 22, 2016, 04:24:39 AM
Unless young people (who overwhelmingly support the Democrats) radically change their political opinions, then I do think Israel has a lot to worry about.
and the uneducated people don't like Israel either.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 22, 2016, 08:40:21 AM
Unless young people (who overwhelmingly support the Democrats) radically change their political opinions, then I do think Israel has a lot to worry about.
and the uneducated people don't like Israel either.

So I don't like Israel. Therefore I'm not educated.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: dead0man on March 22, 2016, 08:45:39 AM
Yes, that's exactly what I said ::)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Vosem on March 22, 2016, 11:18:04 AM
Unless young people (who overwhelmingly support the Democrats) radically change their political opinions, then I do think Israel has a lot to worry about.
and the uneducated people don't like Israel either.

So I don't like Israel. Therefore I'm not educated.

Nah; you've given more specific reasons for that (like your belief that the US isn't morally superior to Cuba, or your belief that Israel encouraged the US' war in Iraq, or your belief that individual politicians can characterize a nation).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 22, 2016, 11:44:17 AM
Unless young people (who overwhelmingly support the Democrats) radically change their political opinions, then I do think Israel has a lot to worry about.
and the uneducated people don't like Israel either.

So I don't like Israel. Therefore I'm not educated.

Nah; you've given more specific reasons for that (like your belief that the US isn't morally superior to Cuba, or your belief that Israel encouraged the US' war in Iraq, or your belief that individual politicians can characterize a nation).

I never said we're not morally superior to Cuba. I'm simply saying criricisms about us are valid when it comes to morality and that given our foreign policy track record in the last 100 years, we shouldn't lecture the rest of the world on freedom and democracy. What good is preaching American values if we don't often exercise them on the world's stage?

Also, it is proof that Netanyahu actually encouraged the American invasion of Iraq back in 2002. Look it up.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on March 22, 2016, 11:50:00 AM
Unless young people (who overwhelmingly support the Democrats) radically change their political opinions, then I do think Israel has a lot to worry about.
and the uneducated people don't like Israel either.

So I don't like Israel. Therefore I'm not educated.

Nah; you've given more specific reasons for that (like your belief that the US isn't morally superior to Cuba, or your belief that Israel encouraged the US' war in Iraq, or your belief that individual politicians can characterize a nation).

I never said we're not morally superior to Cuba. I'm simply saying criricisms about us are valid when it comes to morality and that given our foreign policy track record in the last 100 years, we shouldn't lecture the rest of the world on freedom and democracy. What good is preaching American values if we don't often exercise them on the world's stage?

Also, it is proof that Netanyahu actually encouraged the American invasion of Iraq back in 2002. Look it up.

A whole lot of people supported that war. Holding Israel in any way responsible for what was primarily led by George W. Bush's grudge against the dictator who tried to murder his father is anti-semitism.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 22, 2016, 11:51:53 AM
I'm simply saying criricisms about us are valid when it comes to morality and that given our foreign policy track record in the last 100 years, we shouldn't lecture the rest of the world on freedom and democracy.
Exactly, so why are you still whining about Israel?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 22, 2016, 11:58:21 AM
Unless young people (who overwhelmingly support the Democrats) radically change their political opinions, then I do think Israel has a lot to worry about.
and the uneducated people don't like Israel either.

So I don't like Israel. Therefore I'm not educated.

Nah; you've given more specific reasons for that (like your belief that the US isn't morally superior to Cuba, or your belief that Israel encouraged the US' war in Iraq, or your belief that individual politicians can characterize a nation).

I never said we're not morally superior to Cuba. I'm simply saying criricisms about us are valid when it comes to morality and that given our foreign policy track record in the last 100 years, we shouldn't lecture the rest of the world on freedom and democracy. What good is preaching American values if we don't often exercise them on the world's stage?

Also, it is proof that Netanyahu actually encouraged the American invasion of Iraq back in 2002. Look it up.

A whole lot of people supported that war. Holding Israel in any way responsible for what was primarily led by George W. Bush's grudge against the dictator who tried to murder his father is anti-semitism.

It's not just one person or one country. Anybody in power or influence who supported that war bears responsibility.

Stop thinking criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. It's fair game.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 22, 2016, 12:00:41 PM
I'm simply saying criricisms about us are valid when it comes to morality and that given our foreign policy track record in the last 100 years, we shouldn't lecture the rest of the world on freedom and democracy.
Exactly, so why are you still whining about Israel?

I'm against all sorts of injustices. What Israel does to Palestine is one of many. I oppose what the Saudi government does on human rights. I oppose the Sharia theocracy of Iran. I oppose our actions of toppling governments when we didn't have to.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 22, 2016, 12:03:56 PM
I'm against all sorts of injustices. What Israel does to Palestine is one of many. I oppose what the Saudi government does on human rights. I oppose the Sharia theocracy of Iran. I oppose our actions of toppling governments when we didn't have to.

I'm simply saying criricisms about us are valid when it comes to morality and that given our foreign policy track record in the last 100 years, we shouldn't lecture the rest of the world on freedom and democracy.
Pick one.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on March 22, 2016, 12:04:21 PM
Unless young people (who overwhelmingly support the Democrats) radically change their political opinions, then I do think Israel has a lot to worry about.
and the uneducated people don't like Israel either.

So I don't like Israel. Therefore I'm not educated.

Nah; you've given more specific reasons for that (like your belief that the US isn't morally superior to Cuba, or your belief that Israel encouraged the US' war in Iraq, or your belief that individual politicians can characterize a nation).

I never said we're not morally superior to Cuba. I'm simply saying criricisms about us are valid when it comes to morality and that given our foreign policy track record in the last 100 years, we shouldn't lecture the rest of the world on freedom and democracy. What good is preaching American values if we don't often exercise them on the world's stage?

Also, it is proof that Netanyahu actually encouraged the American invasion of Iraq back in 2002. Look it up.

A whole lot of people supported that war. Holding Israel in any way responsible for what was primarily led by George W. Bush's grudge against the dictator who tried to murder his father is anti-semitism.

It's not just one person or one country. Anybody in power or influence who supported that war bears responsibility.

Stop thinking criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. It's fair game.

And yet I don't see you talking about Poland or the UK's responsibility to stop ISIL.

Plus, again, if Israel started aggressively bombing ISIL bases tomorrow, can you honestly tell me you would support it? Or would you be talking about Eebul Israel bombing Muslims again?

And I'll stop calling certain criticisms of Israel anti-semitic when Israel critics stop blaming us for the US' mistakes and terrorizing American Jews on college campuses.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 22, 2016, 12:08:38 PM
I'm against all sorts of injustices. What Israel does to Palestine is one of many. I oppose what the Saudi government does on human rights. I oppose the Sharia theocracy of Iran. I oppose our actions of toppling governments when we didn't have to.

I'm simply saying criricisms about us are valid when it comes to morality and that given our foreign policy track record in the last 100 years, we shouldn't lecture the rest of the world on freedom and democracy.
Pick one.


When we're in the wrong, let's condemn ourselves. Let's also oppose what others have done wrong, too. I want a change in our foreign policy for the better. Allying ourselves with Israel and Saudi Arabia in its current form is not ideal to me.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 22, 2016, 12:10:40 PM
Unless young people (who overwhelmingly support the Democrats) radically change their political opinions, then I do think Israel has a lot to worry about.
and the uneducated people don't like Israel either.

So I don't like Israel. Therefore I'm not educated.

Nah; you've given more specific reasons for that (like your belief that the US isn't morally superior to Cuba, or your belief that Israel encouraged the US' war in Iraq, or your belief that individual politicians can characterize a nation).

I never said we're not morally superior to Cuba. I'm simply saying criricisms about us are valid when it comes to morality and that given our foreign policy track record in the last 100 years, we shouldn't lecture the rest of the world on freedom and democracy. What good is preaching American values if we don't often exercise them on the world's stage?

Also, it is proof that Netanyahu actually encouraged the American invasion of Iraq back in 2002. Look it up.

A whole lot of people supported that war. Holding Israel in any way responsible for what was primarily led by George W. Bush's grudge against the dictator who tried to murder his father is anti-semitism.

It's not just one person or one country. Anybody in power or influence who supported that war bears responsibility.

Stop thinking criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. It's fair game.

And yet I don't see you talking about Poland or the UK's responsibility to stop ISIL.

Plus, again, if Israel started aggressively bombing ISIL bases tomorrow, can you honestly tell me you would support it? Or would you be talking about Eebul Israel bombing Muslims again?

And I'll stop calling certain criticisms of Israel anti-semitic when Israel critics stop blaming us for the US' mistakes and terrorizing American Jews on college campuses.

I want anyone and everyone to destroy the Islamic State. I don't care which country it is.

When you call someone anti-Semitic for criticizing Israel on things in response to something else you find unfair, you're not being the bigger person.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on March 22, 2016, 12:31:54 PM
Unless young people (who overwhelmingly support the Democrats) radically change their political opinions, then I do think Israel has a lot to worry about.
and the uneducated people don't like Israel either.

So I don't like Israel. Therefore I'm not educated.

Nah; you've given more specific reasons for that (like your belief that the US isn't morally superior to Cuba, or your belief that Israel encouraged the US' war in Iraq, or your belief that individual politicians can characterize a nation).

I never said we're not morally superior to Cuba. I'm simply saying criricisms about us are valid when it comes to morality and that given our foreign policy track record in the last 100 years, we shouldn't lecture the rest of the world on freedom and democracy. What good is preaching American values if we don't often exercise them on the world's stage?

Also, it is proof that Netanyahu actually encouraged the American invasion of Iraq back in 2002. Look it up.

A whole lot of people supported that war. Holding Israel in any way responsible for what was primarily led by George W. Bush's grudge against the dictator who tried to murder his father is anti-semitism.

It's not just one person or one country. Anybody in power or influence who supported that war bears responsibility.

Stop thinking criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. It's fair game.

And yet I don't see you talking about Poland or the UK's responsibility to stop ISIL.

Plus, again, if Israel started aggressively bombing ISIL bases tomorrow, can you honestly tell me you would support it? Or would you be talking about Eebul Israel bombing Muslims again?

And I'll stop calling certain criticisms of Israel anti-semitic when Israel critics stop blaming us for the US' mistakes and terrorizing American Jews on college campuses.

I want anyone and everyone to destroy the Islamic State. I don't care which country it is.

When you call someone anti-Semitic for criticizing Israel on things in response to something else you find unfair, you're not being the bigger person.

First up, I'm not interested in being the bigger person. Not anymore. We've been trying to do that for centuries, and it led us to the ovens. That's why Israel is so important to me - because it's the best insurance against a second Holocaust we've ever had.

And second, I'm not calling you anti-semitic. I haven't seen enough evidence to go with that, unlike other posters, who like to throw around slurs and make explicitly anti-semitic comparisons. I do think, however, your focus on Israel's "culpability" for Iraq has shades of anti-semitic arguments and you should probably drop it. Bush didn't need any outside forces pushing him to war with Iraq. Israel bought into the presented evidence just like most of America.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 22, 2016, 12:39:04 PM
Unless young people (who overwhelmingly support the Democrats) radically change their political opinions, then I do think Israel has a lot to worry about.
and the uneducated people don't like Israel either.

So I don't like Israel. Therefore I'm not educated.

Nah; you've given more specific reasons for that (like your belief that the US isn't morally superior to Cuba, or your belief that Israel encouraged the US' war in Iraq, or your belief that individual politicians can characterize a nation).

I never said we're not morally superior to Cuba. I'm simply saying criricisms about us are valid when it comes to morality and that given our foreign policy track record in the last 100 years, we shouldn't lecture the rest of the world on freedom and democracy. What good is preaching American values if we don't often exercise them on the world's stage?

Also, it is proof that Netanyahu actually encouraged the American invasion of Iraq back in 2002. Look it up.

A whole lot of people supported that war. Holding Israel in any way responsible for what was primarily led by George W. Bush's grudge against the dictator who tried to murder his father is anti-semitism.

It's not just one person or one country. Anybody in power or influence who supported that war bears responsibility.

Stop thinking criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. It's fair game.

And yet I don't see you talking about Poland or the UK's responsibility to stop ISIL.

Plus, again, if Israel started aggressively bombing ISIL bases tomorrow, can you honestly tell me you would support it? Or would you be talking about Eebul Israel bombing Muslims again?

And I'll stop calling certain criticisms of Israel anti-semitic when Israel critics stop blaming us for the US' mistakes and terrorizing American Jews on college campuses.

I want anyone and everyone to destroy the Islamic State. I don't care which country it is.

When you call someone anti-Semitic for criticizing Israel on things in response to something else you find unfair, you're not being the bigger person.

First up, I'm not interested in being the bigger person. Not anymore. We've been trying to do that for centuries, and it led us to the ovens. That's why Israel is so important to me - because it's the best insurance against a second Holocaust we've ever had.

And second, I'm not calling you anti-semitic. I haven't seen enough evidence to go with that, unlike other posters, who like to throw around slurs and make explicitly anti-semitic comparisons. I do think, however, your focus on Israel's "culpability" for Iraq has shades of anti-semitic arguments and you should probably drop it. Bush didn't need any outside forces pushing him to war with Iraq. Israel bought into the presented evidence just like most of America.

I want you to know that I condemn the holocaust just like everyone else. I also want you to know I don't approve of Israel's treatment of Palestine. Both are wrong and my heart goes out to the victims and families in both situations.

My whole point on Israel and Iraq is that it only shows how much influence Israel has on America and it should not be.

I support a two state solution with a decreased Israel lobby influence while also protecting religious freedoms for Jewish people here and other religious groups.

I do not want a second Holocaust. I do not want Israel wiped off the map. I simply want what I believe to be an injustice to be corrected and that is a free Palestine.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on March 22, 2016, 12:49:17 PM
Unless young people (who overwhelmingly support the Democrats) radically change their political opinions, then I do think Israel has a lot to worry about.
and the uneducated people don't like Israel either.

So I don't like Israel. Therefore I'm not educated.

Nah; you've given more specific reasons for that (like your belief that the US isn't morally superior to Cuba, or your belief that Israel encouraged the US' war in Iraq, or your belief that individual politicians can characterize a nation).

I never said we're not morally superior to Cuba. I'm simply saying criricisms about us are valid when it comes to morality and that given our foreign policy track record in the last 100 years, we shouldn't lecture the rest of the world on freedom and democracy. What good is preaching American values if we don't often exercise them on the world's stage?

Also, it is proof that Netanyahu actually encouraged the American invasion of Iraq back in 2002. Look it up.

A whole lot of people supported that war. Holding Israel in any way responsible for what was primarily led by George W. Bush's grudge against the dictator who tried to murder his father is anti-semitism.

It's not just one person or one country. Anybody in power or influence who supported that war bears responsibility.

Stop thinking criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. It's fair game.

And yet I don't see you talking about Poland or the UK's responsibility to stop ISIL.

Plus, again, if Israel started aggressively bombing ISIL bases tomorrow, can you honestly tell me you would support it? Or would you be talking about Eebul Israel bombing Muslims again?

And I'll stop calling certain criticisms of Israel anti-semitic when Israel critics stop blaming us for the US' mistakes and terrorizing American Jews on college campuses.

I want anyone and everyone to destroy the Islamic State. I don't care which country it is.

When you call someone anti-Semitic for criticizing Israel on things in response to something else you find unfair, you're not being the bigger person.

First up, I'm not interested in being the bigger person. Not anymore. We've been trying to do that for centuries, and it led us to the ovens. That's why Israel is so important to me - because it's the best insurance against a second Holocaust we've ever had.

And second, I'm not calling you anti-semitic. I haven't seen enough evidence to go with that, unlike other posters, who like to throw around slurs and make explicitly anti-semitic comparisons. I do think, however, your focus on Israel's "culpability" for Iraq has shades of anti-semitic arguments and you should probably drop it. Bush didn't need any outside forces pushing him to war with Iraq. Israel bought into the presented evidence just like most of America.

I want you to know that I condemn the holocaust just like everyone else. I also want you to know I don't approve of Israel's treatment of Palestine. Both are wrong and my heart goes out to the victims and families in both situations.

My whole point on Israel and Iraq is that it only shows how much influence Israel has on America and it should not be.

I support a two state solution with a decreased Israel lobby influence while also protecting religious freedoms for Jewish people here and other religious groups.

I do not want a second Holocaust. I do not want Israel wiped off the map. I simply want what I believe to be an injustice to be corrected and that is a free Palestine.


Except, see, once again you have this backwards.

Bush wanted the US to go to war in Iraq even before 9/11. This is confirmed. Israel may have agreed with him (especially after being presented the same evidence), but they certainly didn't "influence" him.

If anything, on Iraq, Israel did the US' dirty work, not the other way around. Israel had reasons to want Saddam gone, for sure, starting with Saddam's bombing of Israel during the Gulf War, but that just meant they had common cause with Bush and his long-standing grudge.

So if you want to make a case about the Israel lobby, Iraq is very much the wrong place to do it.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 22, 2016, 01:16:29 PM
Unless young people (who overwhelmingly support the Democrats) radically change their political opinions, then I do think Israel has a lot to worry about.
and the uneducated people don't like Israel either.

So I don't like Israel. Therefore I'm not educated.

Nah; you've given more specific reasons for that (like your belief that the US isn't morally superior to Cuba, or your belief that Israel encouraged the US' war in Iraq, or your belief that individual politicians can characterize a nation).

I never said we're not morally superior to Cuba. I'm simply saying criricisms about us are valid when it comes to morality and that given our foreign policy track record in the last 100 years, we shouldn't lecture the rest of the world on freedom and democracy. What good is preaching American values if we don't often exercise them on the world's stage?

Also, it is proof that Netanyahu actually encouraged the American invasion of Iraq back in 2002. Look it up.

A whole lot of people supported that war. Holding Israel in any way responsible for what was primarily led by George W. Bush's grudge against the dictator who tried to murder his father is anti-semitism.

It's not just one person or one country. Anybody in power or influence who supported that war bears responsibility.

Stop thinking criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. It's fair game.

And yet I don't see you talking about Poland or the UK's responsibility to stop ISIL.

Plus, again, if Israel started aggressively bombing ISIL bases tomorrow, can you honestly tell me you would support it? Or would you be talking about Eebul Israel bombing Muslims again?

And I'll stop calling certain criticisms of Israel anti-semitic when Israel critics stop blaming us for the US' mistakes and terrorizing American Jews on college campuses.

I want anyone and everyone to destroy the Islamic State. I don't care which country it is.

When you call someone anti-Semitic for criticizing Israel on things in response to something else you find unfair, you're not being the bigger person.

First up, I'm not interested in being the bigger person. Not anymore. We've been trying to do that for centuries, and it led us to the ovens. That's why Israel is so important to me - because it's the best insurance against a second Holocaust we've ever had.

And second, I'm not calling you anti-semitic. I haven't seen enough evidence to go with that, unlike other posters, who like to throw around slurs and make explicitly anti-semitic comparisons. I do think, however, your focus on Israel's "culpability" for Iraq has shades of anti-semitic arguments and you should probably drop it. Bush didn't need any outside forces pushing him to war with Iraq. Israel bought into the presented evidence just like most of America.

I want you to know that I condemn the holocaust just like everyone else. I also want you to know I don't approve of Israel's treatment of Palestine. Both are wrong and my heart goes out to the victims and families in both situations.

My whole point on Israel and Iraq is that it only shows how much influence Israel has on America and it should not be.

I support a two state solution with a decreased Israel lobby influence while also protecting religious freedoms for Jewish people here and other religious groups.

I do not want a second Holocaust. I do not want Israel wiped off the map. I simply want what I believe to be an injustice to be corrected and that is a free Palestine.


Except, see, once again you have this backwards.

Bush wanted the US to go to war in Iraq even before 9/11. This is confirmed. Israel may have agreed with him (especially after being presented the same evidence), but they certainly didn't "influence" him.

If anything, on Iraq, Israel did the US' dirty work, not the other way around. Israel had reasons to want Saddam gone, for sure, starting with Saddam's bombing of Israel during the Gulf War, but that just meant they had common cause with Bush and his long-standing grudge.

So if you want to make a case about the Israel lobby, Iraq is very much the wrong place to do it.

Go watch what Netanyahu said before Congress. He has since gotten a second stint as PM. Now that he is back in power, he should be reminded of his words and no Iraq invasion means no destabilization which led these monsters to rise up.

His prediction of enormous positive reverberations has been the complete opposite. Let him and his military play their part in destroying these terrorists.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 22, 2016, 01:22:21 PM
Stop whining, Berniebro. Jesus, it looks ugly.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 22, 2016, 01:30:34 PM
Stop whining, Berniebro. Jesus, it looks ugly.

I have a right to voice my opinion about them and if you wish to do so and criticize me, you also have that right, but I won't stop condemning Israel for the things they have done.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MalaspinaGold on March 22, 2016, 01:31:03 PM
Unless young people (who overwhelmingly support the Democrats) radically change their political opinions, then I do think Israel has a lot to worry about.
and the uneducated people don't like Israel either.

So I don't like Israel. Therefore I'm not educated.

Nah; you've given more specific reasons for that (like your belief that the US isn't morally superior to Cuba, or your belief that Israel encouraged the US' war in Iraq, or your belief that individual politicians can characterize a nation).

I never said we're not morally superior to Cuba. I'm simply saying criricisms about us are valid when it comes to morality and that given our foreign policy track record in the last 100 years, we shouldn't lecture the rest of the world on freedom and democracy. What good is preaching American values if we don't often exercise them on the world's stage?

Also, it is proof that Netanyahu actually encouraged the American invasion of Iraq back in 2002. Look it up.

A whole lot of people supported that war. Holding Israel in any way responsible for what was primarily led by George W. Bush's grudge against the dictator who tried to murder his father is anti-semitism.

It's not just one person or one country. Anybody in power or influence who supported that war bears responsibility.

Stop thinking criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. It's fair game.

And yet I don't see you talking about Poland or the UK's responsibility to stop ISIL.

Plus, again, if Israel started aggressively bombing ISIL bases tomorrow, can you honestly tell me you would support it? Or would you be talking about Eebul Israel bombing Muslims again?

And I'll stop calling certain criticisms of Israel anti-semitic when Israel critics stop blaming us for the US' mistakes and terrorizing American Jews on college campuses.

I want anyone and everyone to destroy the Islamic State. I don't care which country it is.

When you call someone anti-Semitic for criticizing Israel on things in response to something else you find unfair, you're not being the bigger person.

First up, I'm not interested in being the bigger person. Not anymore. We've been trying to do that for centuries, and it led us to the ovens. That's why Israel is so important to me - because it's the best insurance against a second Holocaust we've ever had.

And second, I'm not calling you anti-semitic. I haven't seen enough evidence to go with that, unlike other posters, who like to throw around slurs and make explicitly anti-semitic comparisons. I do think, however, your focus on Israel's "culpability" for Iraq has shades of anti-semitic arguments and you should probably drop it. Bush didn't need any outside forces pushing him to war with Iraq. Israel bought into the presented evidence just like most of America.

I want you to know that I condemn the holocaust just like everyone else. I also want you to know I don't approve of Israel's treatment of Palestine. Both are wrong and my heart goes out to the victims and families in both situations.

My whole point on Israel and Iraq is that it only shows how much influence Israel has on America and it should not be.

I support a two state solution with a decreased Israel lobby influence while also protecting religious freedoms for Jewish people here and other religious groups.

I do not want a second Holocaust. I do not want Israel wiped off the map. I simply want what I believe to be an injustice to be corrected and that is a free Palestine.


Except, see, once again you have this backwards.

Bush wanted the US to go to war in Iraq even before 9/11. This is confirmed. Israel may have agreed with him (especially after being presented the same evidence), but they certainly didn't "influence" him.

If anything, on Iraq, Israel did the US' dirty work, not the other way around. Israel had reasons to want Saddam gone, for sure, starting with Saddam's bombing of Israel during the Gulf War, but that just meant they had common cause with Bush and his long-standing grudge.

So if you want to make a case about the Israel lobby, Iraq is very much the wrong place to do it.

Go watch what Netanyahu said before Congress. He has since gotten a second stint as PM. Now that he is back in power, he should be reminded of his words and no Iraq invasion means no destabilization which led these monsters to rise up.

His prediction of enormous positive reverberations has been the complete opposite. Let him and his military play their part in destroying these terrorists.
You do realize that at the time Netanyahu had exactly the same status as private citizen Yossi Schmo?
Of course the actual prime minister at the time (Sharon) privately advised Bush against going into Iraq.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 22, 2016, 01:52:48 PM
Well that waa then and this is now. Sharon is deceased. Bibi is back in power. If he never had a second stint, I'd have less of an issue with it. Since he's back in, I'd like to see Israel play a role in destroying these monsters.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 22, 2016, 01:56:28 PM
And I would like to have a BMW. And a mansion with a swimming pool. But an important part of growing up and becoming an adult is knowing that you sometimes don't get what you want, Berniebro.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 22, 2016, 02:52:04 PM
And I would like to have a BMW. And a mansion with a swimming pool. But an important part of growing up and becoming an adult is knowing that you sometimes don't get what you want, Berniebro.

That doesn't seem very adult of a response on your behalf.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MalaspinaGold on March 22, 2016, 03:28:28 PM
And I would like to have a BMW. And a mansion with a swimming pool. But an important part of growing up and becoming an adult is knowing that you sometimes don't get what you want, Berniebro.

That doesn't seem very adult of a response on your behalf.
I mean given that you're basically the one throwing the equivalent of a three year old's temper tantrum in this thread, not sure you're one to talk.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 22, 2016, 03:44:15 PM
And I would like to have a BMW. And a mansion with a swimming pool. But an important part of growing up and becoming an adult is knowing that you sometimes don't get what you want, Berniebro.

That doesn't seem very adult of a response on your behalf.
I mean given that you're basically the one throwing the equivalent of a three year old's temper tantrum in this thread, not sure you're one to talk.

Not sure how it's a temper tantrum. Who am I personally attacking?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 23, 2016, 01:10:47 PM
...

In 72 hours, you managed to make 20 (!) posts to this thread which can be summarized as follows: "I don't know anything about either Israeli politics or the history of the US intervention in Iraq, but Israel is responsible for it, I'm just so Very Angry about all this, but it's all cool because I'm really, really not an anti-Semite!" If that's not a typical BernieBro temper tantrum, albeit a rather long one, then what is?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MalaspinaGold on March 23, 2016, 01:16:41 PM
And I would like to have a BMW. And a mansion with a swimming pool. But an important part of growing up and becoming an adult is knowing that you sometimes don't get what you want, Berniebro.

That doesn't seem very adult of a response on your behalf.
I mean given that you're basically the one throwing the equivalent of a three year old's temper tantrum in this thread, not sure you're one to talk.

Not sure how it's a temper tantrum. Who am I personally attacking?
The purpose of this board is for Danny to give us updates on the most recent Israeli junk polls, hnv1 to alert us on which labour bureaucrat is stabbing his rival for control of a doomed party, and DavidB to  remind us that, yes, srugim are a thing. Not included is overgrown manchildren from the 2016 board whinging about how they REALLY REALLY HATE ISRAEL for the twenty thousandth time. Your presence is unwanted, and a nuisance. Begone.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 23, 2016, 09:38:35 PM
And I would like to have a BMW. And a mansion with a swimming pool. But an important part of growing up and becoming an adult is knowing that you sometimes don't get what you want, Berniebro.

That doesn't seem very adult of a response on your behalf.
I mean given that you're basically the one throwing the equivalent of a three year old's temper tantrum in this thread, not sure you're one to talk.

Not sure how it's a temper tantrum. Who am I personally attacking?
The purpose of this board is for Danny to give us updates on the most recent Israeli junk polls, hnv1 to alert us on which labour bureaucrat is stabbing his rival for control of a doomed party, and DavidB to  remind us that, yes, srugim are a thing. Not included is overgrown manchildren from the 2016 board whinging about how they REALLY REALLY HATE ISRAEL for the twenty thousandth time. Your presence is unwanted, and a nuisance. Begone.

I have a right to my opinion as do you.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 23, 2016, 09:41:26 PM
...

In 72 hours, you managed to make 20 (!) posts to this thread which can be summarized as follows: "I don't know anything about either Israeli politics or the history of the US intervention in Iraq, but Israel is responsible for it, I'm just so Very Angry about all this, but it's all cool because I'm really, really not an anti-Semite!" If that's not a typical BernieBro temper tantrum, albeit a rather long one, then what is?

What I would say is they aren't responsible for it but played a role in it and Netanyahu was the same war hawk then that he is now.

Criticism of Israel does not mean being anti-Semitic. Not at all.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MalaspinaGold on March 23, 2016, 11:57:13 PM
And I would like to have a BMW. And a mansion with a swimming pool. But an important part of growing up and becoming an adult is knowing that you sometimes don't get what you want, Berniebro.

That doesn't seem very adult of a response on your behalf.
I mean given that you're basically the one throwing the equivalent of a three year old's temper tantrum in this thread, not sure you're one to talk.

Not sure how it's a temper tantrum. Who am I personally attacking?
The purpose of this board is for Danny to give us updates on the most recent Israeli junk polls, hnv1 to alert us on which labour bureaucrat is stabbing his rival for control of a doomed party, and DavidB to  remind us that, yes, srugim are a thing. Not included is overgrown manchildren from the 2016 board whinging about how they REALLY REALLY HATE ISRAEL for the twenty thousandth time. Your presence is unwanted, and a nuisance. Begone.

I have a right to my opinion as do you.
The etiquette for ignorant babble is comparable to that for nudism- if you MUST express yourself, do so within the confines of your own home, alone, else risk getting called out by angry passersby.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on March 24, 2016, 06:02:11 AM
Yawn. New trashposter spotted. Enjoy ignore, Berniebro.

This thread is about politics in Israel, not about your irrelevant opinion of Israel.
For once, I'm in complete agreement with you.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 24, 2016, 06:55:47 AM
And I would like to have a BMW. And a mansion with a swimming pool. But an important part of growing up and becoming an adult is knowing that you sometimes don't get what you want, Berniebro.

That doesn't seem very adult of a response on your behalf.
I mean given that you're basically the one throwing the equivalent of a three year old's temper tantrum in this thread, not sure you're one to talk.

Not sure how it's a temper tantrum. Who am I personally attacking?
The purpose of this board is for Danny to give us updates on the most recent Israeli junk polls, hnv1 to alert us on which labour bureaucrat is stabbing his rival for control of a doomed party, and DavidB to  remind us that, yes, srugim are a thing. Not included is overgrown manchildren from the 2016 board whinging about how they REALLY REALLY HATE ISRAEL for the twenty thousandth time. Your presence is unwanted, and a nuisance. Begone.

I have a right to my opinion as do you.
The etiquette for ignorant babble is comparable to that for nudism- if you MUST express yourself, do so within the confines of your own home, alone, else risk getting called out by angry passersby.

I'm not afraid of getting called out and debating people here. Why you're so offended is beyond me.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: dead0man on March 24, 2016, 07:18:05 AM
I'm not afraid of getting called out and debating people here. Why you're so offended is beyond me.
It's because this thread is "special".  If you look back, it's mostly about internal politics and less about Israel's relations with other parties, why they suck and why they're awesome.  And that's fine, I don't have a problem with that.  A problem does arise when a second Israel general discussion thread pops up wanting to discuss external matters and people say go talk about it in this thread.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: P123 on March 24, 2016, 07:22:03 AM
Even though Sanders is the most Israeli critical of all the serious presidential candidates, a lot of holier than thou leftists who are always anxious to call people out want to pin him as being pro-Israel. This is a major problem because most young people in America (his base) are basically pro-Hamas.

This Sanders supporter is Pro-Palestine. I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm against the terrorist state that is Israel. They're a parasitic country. The United States owes Israel nothing. My allegiance is to America, not Israel.

Remember: Israel needs America. Not the other way around.

Why are you so anti-semitic? This thread is about general Israel discussion, not about personal opinion on politics.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 24, 2016, 07:30:34 AM
Even though Sanders is the most Israeli critical of all the serious presidential candidates, a lot of holier than thou leftists who are always anxious to call people out want to pin him as being pro-Israel. This is a major problem because most young people in America (his base) are basically pro-Hamas.

This Sanders supporter is Pro-Palestine. I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm against the terrorist state that is Israel. They're a parasitic country. The United States owes Israel nothing. My allegiance is to America, not Israel.

Remember: Israel needs America. Not the other way around.

Why are you so anti-semitic? This thread is about general Israel discussion, not about personal opinion on politics.

Israel is not immune from criticism and criticizing Israel does not equate with anti-Semitism.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: P123 on March 24, 2016, 07:36:53 AM
Even though Sanders is the most Israeli critical of all the serious presidential candidates, a lot of holier than thou leftists who are always anxious to call people out want to pin him as being pro-Israel. This is a major problem because most young people in America (his base) are basically pro-Hamas.

This Sanders supporter is Pro-Palestine. I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm against the terrorist state that is Israel. They're a parasitic country. The United States owes Israel nothing. My allegiance is to America, not Israel.

Remember: Israel needs America. Not the other way around.

Why are you so anti-semitic? This thread is about general Israel discussion, not about personal opinion on politics.

Israel is not immune from criticism and criticizing Israel does not equate with anti-Semitism.

Blaming Israel for Iraq certainly does. Then calling the county a terrorist nation, which is completely ridiculous.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 24, 2016, 07:40:09 AM
Even though Sanders is the most Israeli critical of all the serious presidential candidates, a lot of holier than thou leftists who are always anxious to call people out want to pin him as being pro-Israel. This is a major problem because most young people in America (his base) are basically pro-Hamas.

This Sanders supporter is Pro-Palestine. I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm against the terrorist state that is Israel. They're a parasitic country. The United States owes Israel nothing. My allegiance is to America, not Israel.

Remember: Israel needs America. Not the other way around.

Why are you so anti-semitic? This thread is about general Israel discussion, not about personal opinion on politics.

Israel is not immune from criticism and criticizing Israel does not equate with anti-Semitism.

Blaming Israel for Iraq certainly does.

It's certainly true that Netanyahu, who is now back in power, supported the war, which in turn helped create the Islamic State. All I'm saying is I want him to be a major player in taking these monsters down.

You advocate for a war, consequences ensue, now clean up the mess you partly contributed to.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: P123 on March 24, 2016, 08:07:30 AM
Even though Sanders is the most Israeli critical of all the serious presidential candidates, a lot of holier than thou leftists who are always anxious to call people out want to pin him as being pro-Israel. This is a major problem because most young people in America (his base) are basically pro-Hamas.

This Sanders supporter is Pro-Palestine. I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm against the terrorist state that is Israel. They're a parasitic country. The United States owes Israel nothing. My allegiance is to America, not Israel.

Remember: Israel needs America. Not the other way around.

Why are you so anti-semitic? This thread is about general Israel discussion, not about personal opinion on politics.

Israel is not immune from criticism and criticizing Israel does not equate with anti-Semitism.

Blaming Israel for Iraq certainly does.

It's certainly true that Netanyahu, who is now back in power, supported the war, which in turn helped create the Islamic State. All I'm saying is I want him to be a major player in taking these monsters down.

You advocate for a war, consequences ensue, now clean up the mess you partly contributed to.

A boatload of countries supported Iraq. Had nothing to do with Israel.

You should know Netanyahu wasint even in office during Iraq.

And obviously Israel should, will, and is helping us destroy the disgusting monster of ISIS. The county that really needs to pay for legit evil is Saudi Arabia.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 24, 2016, 09:24:55 AM
Yawn! can we resume discussing Israeli politics thank you?

Haaretz poll from this morning with a Ashkenazi-Saar-Kachlon party
ASK - 23
Likud - 22
ZU -15
Lapid - 13
JAL- 13
JH - 10
Shas - 7
UTJ - 7
Meretz - 5
Liberman - 5

well this is the first party formation that can establish a government not let by Likud (JAL\Meretz\JH the only parties who will not be viable partners in a coalition here)

And to Labour backstabbing (come on you know you missed it): Margalit fired up on Herzog and Livni and wants to break up the union, with convention elections coming up in June I'm hearing of lots of infighting, and Shelly as always is doing whatever she wants


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Vosem on March 24, 2016, 11:28:43 AM
How likely is the creation of such an ASK party? Who would be the leader? If that was the election result, would they prefer to ally with Likud and the right-wing parties, or to form a smaller government with the left (ASK/Lapid/Avoda/Meretz is 56, so presumably they could convince Liberman or one of the Orthodox parties to back the government)?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: RightBehind on March 24, 2016, 04:02:45 PM
Even though Sanders is the most Israeli critical of all the serious presidential candidates, a lot of holier than thou leftists who are always anxious to call people out want to pin him as being pro-Israel. This is a major problem because most young people in America (his base) are basically pro-Hamas.

This Sanders supporter is Pro-Palestine. I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm against the terrorist state that is Israel. They're a parasitic country. The United States owes Israel nothing. My allegiance is to America, not Israel.

Remember: Israel needs America. Not the other way around.

Why are you so anti-semitic? This thread is about general Israel discussion, not about personal opinion on politics.

Israel is not immune from criticism and criticizing Israel does not equate with anti-Semitism.

Blaming Israel for Iraq certainly does.

It's certainly true that Netanyahu, who is now back in power, supported the war, which in turn helped create the Islamic State. All I'm saying is I want him to be a major player in taking these monsters down.

You advocate for a war, consequences ensue, now clean up the mess you partly contributed to.

A boatload of countries supported Iraq. Had nothing to do with Israel.

You should know Netanyahu wasint even in office during Iraq.

And obviously Israel should, will, and is helping us destroy the disgusting monster of ISIS. The county that really needs to pay for legit evil is Saudi Arabia.

I know he wasn't, but now he's back and since he's the one in charge, he should fight them too.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on March 24, 2016, 05:28:15 PM
Even though Sanders is the most Israeli critical of all the serious presidential candidates, a lot of holier than thou leftists who are always anxious to call people out want to pin him as being pro-Israel. This is a major problem because most young people in America (his base) are basically pro-Hamas.

This Sanders supporter is Pro-Palestine. I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm against the terrorist state that is Israel. They're a parasitic country. The United States owes Israel nothing. My allegiance is to America, not Israel.

Remember: Israel needs America. Not the other way around.

Why are you so anti-semitic? This thread is about general Israel discussion, not about personal opinion on politics.

Israel is not immune from criticism and criticizing Israel does not equate with anti-Semitism.

Blaming Israel for Iraq certainly does.

It's certainly true that Netanyahu, who is now back in power, supported the war, which in turn helped create the Islamic State. All I'm saying is I want him to be a major player in taking these monsters down.

You advocate for a war, consequences ensue, now clean up the mess you partly contributed to.

A boatload of countries supported Iraq. Had nothing to do with Israel.

You should know Netanyahu wasint even in office during Iraq.

And obviously Israel should, will, and is helping us destroy the disgusting monster of ISIS. The county that really needs to pay for legit evil is Saudi Arabia.

I know he wasn't, but now he's back and since he's the one in charge, he should fight them too.

Everyone should fight ISIS. We all need to play a part in destroying this scourge to humanity.

That being said, Israel doesn't "owe" anything in particular to this fight, certainly not more than other countries. In fact, I would urge everyone to drop the whole argument of what "Israel owes", simply because any discussion of debt in terms of Israel's population and the rest of the world is not going to end with Israel in the red.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Comrade Funk on March 24, 2016, 05:36:49 PM
What about Yuval Diskin for Labor? While he is pretty leftist from what I gather, at least he has balls and provides an alternative. I really hope one of Diskin, Ashkenazi, or Gantz jump into politics for the sake of their country.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 25, 2016, 11:00:04 AM
How likely is the creation of such an ASK party? Who would be the leader? If that was the election result, would they prefer to ally with Likud and the right-wing parties, or to form a smaller government with the left (ASK/Lapid/Avoda/Meretz is 56, so presumably they could convince Liberman or one of the Orthodox parties to back the government)?
The problem is between Ashkenazi and Saar, Kachlon has no PM intentions. The likely coalition here is ASK-Labour-Lapid-UTJ-Shas at 65, don't think they'll include Meretz in it.

Quote
What about Yuval Diskin for Labor? While he is pretty leftist from what I gather, at least he has balls and provides an alternative. I really hope one of Diskin, Ashkenazi, or Gantz jump into politics for the sake of their country.
Appears to be the dream candidate of everyone of the left but he does no ground work and just writes his witty posts on facebook, that's not how he's going to win the Labour leadership. To do that you need a coalition of 2 of the 3: Tradeunionists (loyal to Nisankoren)\elder voters (loyal to Herzog but could go for any "solid" runner)\young voters (most of which are Shelly loyal). The rest of the groups in the party of are to small to tilt an entire leadership election.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 26, 2016, 02:46:38 PM
Meanwhile, the story of the Hebron soldier who shot dead a wounded terrorist that had attacked one of his fellow soldiers a few minutes before is blowing up in the hands of Benjamin Netanyahu. The video, which prompted both international and national criticism of the soldier's conduct, was released by B'Tselem. The UN and ministers Benjamin Netanyahu and Moshe Ya'alon (Defense) condemned the soldier's action, whereas MKs Avigdor Lieberman (YB), Bezalel Smotrich (BY/Tekuma) and Oren Hazan (Likud) publicly supported the soldier. The IDF announced that an investigation would take place. On Friday, however, a second video was published, in which it became apparent that the soldier might have had a reason to believe that the terroris was, in fact, wearing an explosive vest. This prompted more public figures to come out in support of the soldier.

The story has become the talk of the town in Israel, and it is not the first one: a few years ago, the fairly similar story of "David HaNahalawi", a soldier who had pointed his gun at a minor threatening him, became an issue. Of course, this is a very sensitive subject and since almost all non-haredi Israelis have served in the IDF at some point, there is much solidarity with the Hebron soldier. Most Likud voters presumably stand with the soldier, so Netanyahu needs to hope this story does not drag on for too long. He might be unlucky: the soldier might be prosecuted for murder.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Comrade Funk on March 26, 2016, 06:37:33 PM
Meanwhile, the story of the Hebron soldier who shot dead a wounded terrorist that had attacked one of his fellow soldiers a few minutes before is blowing up in the hands of Benjamin Netanyahu. The video, which prompted both international and national criticism of the soldier's conduct, was released by B'Tselem. The UN and ministers Benjamin Netanyahu and Moshe Ya'alon (Defense) condemned the soldier's action, whereas MKs Avigdor Lieberman (YB), Bezalel Smotrich (BY/Tekuma) and Oren Hazan (Likud) publicly supported the soldier. The IDF announced that an investigation would take place. On Friday, however, a second video was published, in which it became apparent that the soldier might have had a reason to believe that the terroris was, in fact, wearing an explosive vest. This prompted more public figures to come out in support of the soldier.

The story has become the talk of the town in Israel, and it is not the first one: a few years ago, the fairly similar story of "David HaNahalawi", a soldier who had pointed his gun at a minor threatening him, became an issue. Of course, this is a very sensitive subject and since almost all non-haredi Israelis have served in the IDF at some point, there is much solidarity with the Hebron soldier. Most Likud voters presumably stand with the soldier, so Netanyahu needs to hope this story does not drag on for too long. He might be unlucky: the soldier might be prosecuted with murder.
So the IDF must be wrong too...
IDF officials reject claims soldier in Hebron feared bomb/ (http://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-officials-reject-claims-soldier-in-hebron-feared-bomb/)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on March 26, 2016, 07:25:45 PM
Well, I've blocked AlwaysBernie after reading his idiotic ramblings.

Moving onto the solider controversy. I feel  for the solider's family, it seems like he let his emotions get the best of him, however, the IDF does have protocol and he violated it. His own soldiers aren't even defending him.

He didn't attack an innocent person, however, and that should be stated over and over. He attack a terrorist, but at the same time Israel prides itself on building a moral military. This type of incident cannot be allowed to go unquestioned.

Also, MKs Avigdor Lieberman, Bezalel Smotrich and Oren Hazan are not people I'd want to cite as people on this solidier's side. Smotrich is crazy, Lieberman is an attention whore, and Hazan is an a-hole.

So, all and all, I think the government and IDF responded appropriately


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Angel of Death on March 26, 2016, 08:55:44 PM
So the target was a soldier, who is part of a belligerent occupation of a subjugated populace (which, on top of that, is slowly being ethnically cleansed) and the attacker is a terrorist? I thought there was supposed to be a distinction between civilian and military targets?

Why don't you block me as well then? I'm sure it will be just as effective as when DavidB. blocked me. ::)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 26, 2016, 09:43:09 PM
Also, MKs Avigdor Lieberman, Bezalel Smotrich and Oren Hazan are not people I'd want to cite as people on this solidier's side. Smotrich is crazy, Lieberman is an attention whore, and Hazan is an a-hole.

So, all and all, I think the government and IDF responded appropriately
Then you are the one who's not on the soldier's side, not these three high-energy politicians. No surprise though.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MalaspinaGold on March 26, 2016, 09:52:05 PM
Meanwhile, the story of the Hebron soldier who shot dead a wounded terrorist that had attacked one of his fellow soldiers a few minutes before is blowing up in the hands of Benjamin Netanyahu. The video, which prompted both international and national criticism of the soldier's conduct, was released by B'Tselem. The UN and ministers Benjamin Netanyahu and Moshe Ya'alon (Defense) condemned the soldier's action, whereas MKs Avigdor Lieberman (YB), Bezalel Smotrich (BY/Tekuma) and Oren Hazan (Likud) publicly supported the soldier. The IDF announced that an investigation would take place. On Friday, however, a second video was published, in which it became apparent that the soldier might have had a reason to believe that the terroris was, in fact, wearing an explosive vest. This prompted more public figures to come out in support of the soldier.

The story has become the talk of the town in Israel, and it is not the first one: a few years ago, the fairly similar story of "David HaNahalawi", a soldier who had pointed his gun at a minor threatening him, became an issue. Of course, this is a very sensitive subject and since almost all non-haredi Israelis have served in the IDF at some point, there is much solidarity with the Hebron soldier. Most Likud voters presumably stand with the soldier, so Netanyahu needs to hope this story does not drag on for too long. He might be unlucky: the soldier might be prosecuted with murder.
So the IDF must be wrong too...
IDF officials reject claims soldier in Hebron feared bomb/ (http://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-officials-reject-claims-soldier-in-hebron-feared-bomb/)

DavidB. has long shown himself to be disrespectful of the IDF and it's leaders. SAD!

So the target was a soldier, who is part of a belligerent occupation of a subjugated populace (which, on top of that, is slowly being ethnically cleansed) and the attacker is a terrorist? I thought there was supposed to be a distinction between civilian and military targets?

Why don't you block me as well then? I'm sure it will be just as effective as when DavidB. blocked me. ::)
()
I assume you're one of those who justified the Paris attacks because ZOMG France is droning innocent Syrians?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 26, 2016, 09:56:42 PM
DavidB. has long shown himself to be disrespectful of the IDF and it's duties. SAD!
()


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on March 26, 2016, 11:55:36 PM
So the target was a soldier, who is part of a belligerent occupation of a subjugated populace (which, on top of that, is slowly being ethnically cleansed) and the attacker is a terrorist? I thought there was supposed to be a distinction between civilian and military targets?

Why don't you block me as well then? I'm sure it will be just as effective as when DavidB. blocked me. ::)

I don't block people for dissenting opinions. I block people, like AlwaysBernie and IndyTexas, who are blind hacks and completely belligerent in their opinions.

I won't bother arguing with you because, as we both know, it won't end in any mutual agreement. However, I have no reason to block you.

Now, why don't you be a useful puppet and ignore the war-crimes of ISIS, Assad, Hezbollah and Hamas while you protest Israel.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Comrade Funk on March 27, 2016, 01:26:36 AM
So the target was a soldier, who is part of a belligerent occupation of a subjugated populace (which, on top of that, is slowly being ethnically cleansed) and the attacker is a terrorist? I thought there was supposed to be a distinction between civilian and military targets?

Why don't you block me as well then? I'm sure it will be just as effective as when DavidB. blocked me. ::)

I don't block people for dissenting opinions. I block people, like AlwaysBernie and IndyTexas, who are blind hacks and completely belligerent in their opinions.

I won't bother arguing with you because, as we both know, it won't end in any mutual agreement. However, I have no reason to block you.

Now, why don't you be a useful puppet and ignore the war-crimes of ISIS, Assad, Hezbollah and Hamas while you protest Israel.
I never understand this argument. Just cause Hamas and Assad are bad, doesn't mean Israel isn't doing really bad stuff too. Isn't it a bit weird Israel has the "let's stay majority Jewish" fetish while gobbling non-Jewish land?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on March 27, 2016, 01:45:00 AM
So the target was a soldier, who is part of a belligerent occupation of a subjugated populace (which, on top of that, is slowly being ethnically cleansed) and the attacker is a terrorist? I thought there was supposed to be a distinction between civilian and military targets?

Why don't you block me as well then? I'm sure it will be just as effective as when DavidB. blocked me. ::)

I don't block people for dissenting opinions. I block people, like AlwaysBernie and IndyTexas, who are blind hacks and completely belligerent in their opinions.

I won't bother arguing with you because, as we both know, it won't end in any mutual agreement. However, I have no reason to block you.

Now, why don't you be a useful puppet and ignore the war-crimes of ISIS, Assad, Hezbollah and Hamas while you protest Israel.
I never understand this argument. Just cause Hamas and Assad are bad, doesn't mean Israel isn't doing really bad stuff too. Isn't it a bit weird Israel has the "let's stay majority Jewish" fetish while gobbling non-Jewish land?

Israel isn't doing "really bad stuff" under any real definition of that term. If you think Israel's actions during the 2008, 2012, and 2014 Gaza/Hamas conflicts are "bad" then I want to see U.S. and U.K. military actions in Iraq thrown into international court, because they killed significantly more civilians in percentage and sheer numbers then Israel ever has.

In regards to settlement construction, I do not believe it is weird at all. The west bank is not anybody's land by international law and most of that land is not inhabited by anybody, so it's not "non-Jewish land." If Israel really wanted to take non-Jewish lands (whatever this is supposed to even mean) then it would've taken Bethlehem and Hebron already. Which, btw, will never happen. So this fantasy dream that Israel is taking over Palestinian-controlled cities is false.

The real double standard is this notion that Israel should be harped on for settlement construction when the Palestinian Authority has no real goal of making peace. Israel could be completely out of the settlements and the PA still won't sign any deal. But, of course, why focus on that?

The Leadership of the Palestinians are the sole people to blame for the lack of a Palestinian state. They have blown every legitimate chance for peace and statehood since 1967.

This whole issue would have been over in 2000, despite the whining of Anti-Israel, Leftist clowns like Robert Malley and Sid Blumenthal. But Arafat was making too much $$$ off being a corrupt terrorist.

Also, how is it a "fetish" to want to keep Israel a Jewish state? It is clearly a democracy that protects it's minority populations. So the negative connotation you placed with your statement is unnecessary.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on March 27, 2016, 01:49:18 AM
Maybe I am miswording my statements by alluding to other countries sins, but that doesn't automatically mean Israel is hiding something or trying to take attention off itself.

The status quo, generally, remains quiet in Israel and the disputed territories until Hamas or the PA start spewing off terror attacks or terror statements. This is literally not the case anywhere else in the region.

Israelis work with Palestinians, Palestinians work with Israelis. Until their leadership starts spewing hatred.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 27, 2016, 04:37:18 AM
Yeah I don't buy sh**t from what the soldier and his family said. I know the protocols there and if there was the slightest suspicion he had a bomb on him he wouldn't have been surrounded by officers and paramedics but rather isolated until he was checked. That soldier was active in Beitar Jerusalem far right organization and is generally a disgusting Ars I don't believe a word he's saying and I hope he gets the due sentence  (but he won't)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 27, 2016, 06:50:56 AM
That soldier was active in Beitar Jerusalem far right organization and is generally a disgusting Ars I don't believe a word he's saying and I hope he gets the due sentence  (but he won't)
More racism by Ashkenazi left-wingers. Sad!

Didn't know he was Beitar. That improves my opinion of him even more. Now here's to hoping the Erev Rav will not succeed in this case. The people will not accept it.

Let's now move to the next junk poll, because while I tried to be objective in my first post on this subject, I see this is becoming a trainwreck :p


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: windjammer on March 27, 2016, 07:15:22 AM
Hello everyone,
After some thought, I have decided that I will follow closely what is going on Israel. If you don't mind, I have few questions:

1) Is Netanyahu popular? He has a 1 seat government majority, is the government stable?
2) Is there a chance the processus of peace between Palestinians and Israelians restart?
3) Is Netanyahu perceived as a moderate among the right?
4) What are the most important issues right now in Israel?

Thanks :)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 27, 2016, 07:47:31 AM
I will answer them, but I'm not objective (no one is) and many of these questions are relatively subjective, so people (who actually know what's going on, that is) should feel free to be critical of it.

1) Netanyahu is relatively popular among the right, not at all among the left. However, even on the right, quite some people are tired of him, but they see him as a better alternative than the left. (I belong to this category). He's basically in power because he's inevitable. He successfully manages to prevent people from challenging his power within Likud, and the Israeli left is just too weak to challenge Likud/Netanyahu. Even if the Zionist Union would have been the largest party in the last election, it would almost have been impossible to form a coalition without Likud. The party is very strong among working-class people/Mizrahim, who continue to support it.

2) It will probably restart sometime, if only because the next American president wants to get the Nobel Peace Prize. Don't think it will happen this year, though. Obama is done with it, and both conflict parties don't seem to be interested in it.

3) Yes (but certainly not among the left). There are certainly a lot of people within Likud who are more to the right than Netanyahu. Perhaps pragmatist is an even better term. As PM, you have to take into account much more interests and people than as a Likud MK (or even a minister), so in some sense this is logical. However, Netanyahu takes it to a different level. I sometimes doubt he's interested in anything else than power, but that might be my bias (though many Israelis, both on the right and on the left, would agree with me).

4) The problem is that the conflict overshadows everything, which causes all other important issues not to be taken into account. For instance, the country suffers from crony capitalism, oligarchy, and high tariffs. Inequality and poverty are skyrocketing, there is a huge economic bubble, and the costs of living keep rising. However, Likud can afford to do nothing, because it will win the elections over people's concerns regarding the conflict anyway. That is a very sad state of affairs, in my opinion. At some point, this has to be tackled. There is quite some attention for this problem, which got picked up by protesters in 2011 and then by political parties Labour/Yesh Atid/Kulanu, but not enough to make a difference in terms of policy. Likud is very status-quo oriented and risk-averse, so they are not going to implement the necessary changes. Another important issue is related to religion-state issues. Should there be civil marriage? Should Haredim have to serve in the army? What, if any, influence should the chief rabbinate have? So I'd say conflict + religion/state + economy are the three most important political themes in Israel.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: windjammer on March 27, 2016, 07:55:10 AM
Thank you so much :) :)

But if there is an economic bubble, if the bubble explodes (which will happen), Israel is going to have a rough time because of incompetent oligarchs, right???



Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 27, 2016, 07:59:00 AM
I indeed wonder whether the economy will be flexible enough to deal with that in a good way. It's going to be hard for people who are already having a difficult time making ends meet, and this is one of the reasons I'd rather wait before moving there.

Oh, and regarding the government's stability (which I forgot to answer), they only have a one-seat majority and it will doubtlessly collapse before 2019 (normal Israeli), but this seems to be the best option for most parties, so they are fine for now. Theoretically only Kulanu and Bayit Yehudi have incentives to quit the coalition, but Bayit Yehudi's number of seats will go up in the next election anyway, so it doesn't really matter for them, and Bennett, who wants to be PM someday (good luck with that), will find the mainstreaming of the party more important than principles (which is why I don't support them anymore). Kulanu will be absolutely crushed, so better for Kahlon to stay in and try to exercise some influence, at least for now.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 27, 2016, 08:40:01 AM
That soldier was active in Beitar Jerusalem far right organization and is generally a disgusting Ars I don't believe a word he's saying and I hope he gets the due sentence  (but he won't)
More racism by Ashkenazi left-wingers. Sad!

Didn't know he was Beitar. That improves my opinion of him even more. Now here's to hoping the Erev Rav will not succeed in this case. The people will not accept it.

Let's now move to the next junk poll, because while I tried to be objective in my first post on this subject, I see this is becoming a trainwreck :p
That's Hilarious because I'm not "Ashkenaz" part for one grandmother. Also nothing racist about "Ars" as you would have known had you known Israeli society better. Also today a fellow soldier present at the execution said there was no fear of a bomb and he was bent on shooting him, so can we cut the BS and admit the srugim and the uneducated mass just want a free hand in executing Palestinian militants?

None of it matters Ofc as he'll receive a ridiculous punishment, but this incident shows us the bestiality the right sunk to, and the fake humanism the right politicians have to express when direct evidence for the consequences of their words    


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: windjammer on March 27, 2016, 08:43:41 AM
Thank you again :) .

Could a deal be reached between Israël and Palestine ? I just read a few pages of this thread and it seems that clashs often happen, big tension :(.

It's sad because both populations seem to be suffering a lot because of this conflict :(


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 27, 2016, 08:49:25 AM
That's Hilario because I'm not "Ashkenaz" part for one grandmother. Also nothing racist about "Ars" as you would have known had you known Israeli society better. Also today a fellow soldier present at the execution said there was no fear of a bomb and he was bent on shooting him, so can we cut the BS and admit the srugim and the uneducated mass just want a free hand in executing Palestinian militants?

Non of it matters ofc because he'll receive a ridiculous punishment, but this incident shows us the bestiality the right sunk to, and the fake humanism the right politicians have to express when direct evidence for the consequences of their words    
The remark was tongue-in-cheek. That said, of course people use that word all the time, but there is a reason people also didn't find it acceptable to use the word on a Labour Party conference, and yes, that reason is racism and classism ;) All this shows once again how the Israeli left lost any contact with the working class (or the "uneducated mass", as you like to call them; could it get any more elitist?), who love this brave hero and are sick and tired of the establishment. Sad!

I personally don't care whether the terrorist even appeared to have a suicide vest or not, and I also don't care for "right-wing" politicians preaching "humanism". I think you know where I stand.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 27, 2016, 08:52:21 AM
Thank you again :) .

Could a deal be reached between Israël and Palestine ? I just read a few pages of this thread and it seems that clashs often happen, big tension :(.

It's sad because both populations seem to be suffering a lot because of this conflict :(
It's a possibility, it does not entail a logical contradiction but I wouldn't bet on it too much. Then again the ME is volatile, maybe after Abbas resigns and this third intifida takes it's toll things will look different. 


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 27, 2016, 08:59:03 AM
That's Hilario because I'm not "Ashkenaz" part for one grandmother. Also nothing racist about "Ars" as you would have known had you known Israeli society better. Also today a fellow soldier present at the execution said there was no fear of a bomb and he was bent on shooting him, so can we cut the BS and admit the srugim and the uneducated mass just want a free hand in executing Palestinian militants?

Non of it matters ofc because he'll receive a ridiculous punishment, but this incident shows us the bestiality the right sunk to, and the fake humanism the right politicians have to express when direct evidence for the consequences of their words    
The remark was tongue-in-cheek. That said, of course people use that word all the time, but there is a reason people also didn't find it acceptable to use the word on a Labour Party conference, and yes, that reason is racism and classism ;) All this shows once again how the Israeli left lost any contact with the working class (or the "uneducated mass", as you like to call them; could it get any more elitist?), who love this brave hero and are sick and tired of the establishment. Sad!

I personally don't care whether the terrorist even appeared to have a suicide vest or not, and I also don't care for "right-wing" politicians preaching "humanism". I think you know where I stand.
The reason it causes stir is because some 100 Haaretz readers from Tel Aviv who care about identity politics caused a "stir" online, AKA no one really cared. Regarding the detachment from the "working class" (which in itself is funny for right wingers to go to) Israel doesn't have a working class, and even if it did it would not be the Sephardi population who are mostly middle class. Or as I tell fellow leftists, cut the crap this is not a class conflict it's a conflict between modernism & liberalism versus religious and ethnic backwards views.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 27, 2016, 09:11:54 AM
The reason it causes stir is because some 100 Haaretz readers from Tel Aviv who care about identity politics caused a "stir" online, AKA no one really cared. Regarding the detachment from the "working class" (which in itself is funny for right wingers to go to) Israel doesn't have a working class, and even if it did it would not be the Sephardi population who are mostly middle class. Or as I tell fellow leftists, cut the crap this is not a class conflict it's a conflict between modernism & liberalism versus religious and ethnic backwards views.
My avatar might mislead you, but I am not your average right-winger. I am a right-winger for identity-related reasons, not for socio-economic reasons. I would have a deep red avatar if the left would be better than the right on immaterial issues.

Class remains extremely important in modern society. Of course the Israeli left does not want to analyze the situation on the basis of class, because that would necessitate them to come to terms with the fact that they have failed utterly in attracting support from working-class voters. Analyzing the situation in terms of "progressive liberalism/because it's 2016" vs. "those backwards, conservative, Jewish people" has always been popular among the left and it is exactly why voters do not buy the left's positions anymore.

"Israel does not have a working class" is a pretty lol statement. The fact that the country has a largely service-based economy does not mean people cannot be working class. Most Mizrahim might be middle class, but most of the working class is Mizrahi. The fact that someone with a blue avatar needs to tell someone with a deep red avatar to take into account class is a bit remarkable.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 27, 2016, 09:33:46 AM
define working class? a working class as a Marxist "revolutionary agent" does not exist here or anywhere in the western world. I don't know how well informed you are in Marxist doctrine but trying to bend it to include Mizrahim is precisely why analyzing it to revolve around class is bogus. The fact of being poor does not make one working class, and it's definitely not congruent with Mizrahim in Israel.
Anyway in the Israeli market Arabs\Russians\African immigrants play a closer role to a working class than Mizrahim, I also disagree on you analysis as to why the left is failing with (a large segments) of voters.

FYI, Likud doesn't attract to much "working-class voters" as well. Most decile 1-3 voters vote for UTJ\Shas\JAL not Likud nor Labour (and surely not Lapid or Meretz)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 27, 2016, 10:12:53 AM
()
The facts are clear: the people stand with our brave hero!

define working class? a working class as a Marxist "revolutionary agent" does not exist here or anywhere in the western world. I don't know how well informed you are in Marxist doctrine but trying to bend it to include Mizrahim is precisely why analyzing it to revolve around class is bogus. The fact of being poor does not make one working class, and it's definitely not congruent with Mizrahim in Israel.
Anyway in the Israeli market Arabs\Russians\African immigrants play a closer role to a working class than Mizrahim, I also disagree on you analysis as to why the left is failing with (a large segments) of voters.

FYI, Likud doesn't attract to much "working-class voters" as well. Most decile 1-3 voters vote for UTJ\Shas\JAL not Likud nor Labour (and surely not Lapid or Meretz)
As a political scientist I know my concepts, thank you very much. While the working class will bring about the revolution according to Marxist theory, it does not have to be revolutionary in order to be (though deteriorating conditions should make the working class more revolutionary). Therefore, it is irrelevant that the working classes in the West and in Israel are not revolutionary (yet). The working class, broadly speaking, is the class that is subject to exploitation of the upper class.

And yes, class is relevant in Israel, both socially and electorally. Of course being poor does not automatically render one working class, but the poor are often working class. Similarly, of course Haredim, Arabs and African immigrants are often poorer than Mizrahim (and are often working-class too), yet this doesn't change that if one combines the working class and the lower middle-class, who are struggling due to the increase of inequality and the rising costs of living (and it is hard to really differentiate between the lower-middle class and the working class nowadays), Mizrahim will easily make up the largest percentage. As much as you and others like to ignore it, talking about "the uneducated masses" in Israel has a non-Ashkenazi ethnic undertone. Of course the poorest people in Israel generally vote UTJ/Shas/JL (though Likud will already be a lot larger than the left among this group), but if you take into account people who are one or two steps higher on the ladder, the picture changes dramatically and Likud will easily be the most popular party. And of course Lapid's voters are decidedly middle-class/upper-middle class, and Meretz's even more so. (Don't know why you brought that up tbh. My only point was that Yesh Atid and Labour have been talking about economic inequality more than other parties, but I absolutely didn't say their electorate is working class, which would be nonsense.)

The point is that even without taking into account Israeli Arabs and Haredim, class conflict is more prevalent in Israel than, for instance, in most Western European societies (which are much more egalitarian), even if it is usually not interpreted as such.

But I don't think we are going to agree on this, and I'm really not going to spend more time on this, because it seems fruitless. Shavua tov.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 27, 2016, 11:10:36 AM
A. because popular opinion on matters is intrinsically true

B. I'm not going to debate Marx but a major factor in being working class is the alienating process of monotone work for hour and hours a day in the production of a commodity (which is of the highest value to the human nature) and being stripped of it by the manufacturing process that makes one a member of the working class. I don't see this conditions in the western world, I also doubt that the poorer sections of society are in the risk of being cut dry by the production process, they're actually quite stable nowadays (in being in crappy conditions), but rather the middle class is.

C. pardon me but I'm not all that emphatic for your likudnik lower middle class, I don't think they're doing all that bad and I actually think they profit from the continuation of the conflict. So yeah shocking a left wing voter who doesn't think Mizrahim are voting against their interests. how racist.

D. I think you are mistaken and the situation here is much less class-based then Europe (at least less than the UK\DE\FR). I think this is an inaccurate description of reality.

E. The uneducated mass is not synonymous  with Mizrahim especially not in 2016 where not so many years ago in my elitist haven of the Hebrew Uni law faculty there were even numbers of Mizrahim and Ashkenazim. Or Mizrahim are 45% of the upper class and are fully represented in the affluent regions of Israel. It's related to Mizrahim of the periphery (who are mostly Moroccan and Yemenites) but also Russians, Romanians and many more. It's a geographic term not an ethnic one


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 27, 2016, 11:27:04 AM
C. pardon me but I'm not all that emphatic for your likudnik lower middle class, I don't think they're doing all that bad and I actually think they profit from the continuation of the conflict. So yeah shocking a left wing voter who doesn't think Mizrahim are voting against their interests. how racist.
Not sure if you're implying I think they are voting against their interest, but let's clear that up: I definitely don't think they are voting against their interest and I'm glad you, at least, do not fall for this (but only because you don't acknowledge class in the first place) idea, which is indeed racist. Conflict/territory related issues are the main division in Israeli politics, and people who are traditional and have a right-wing view on the conflict vote for parties that respect traditional people and have a right-wing view on the conflict. It is sad Likud does not pursue policies that benefit these people economically and instead perpetuates crony capitalism, but the immaterial is much more important for people than the material, and as long as the left continues to pretend Israel is (or should be) just another Western European modern state and continues to be out of touch with the working class and the lower middle class, these people will rightly continue to vote for parties on the right. It is perfectly rational for people not to vote for parties that disrespect their identity and their heritage.

E. The uneducated mass is not synonymous  with Mizrahim especially not in 2016
never said this


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: windjammer on March 28, 2016, 08:31:00 AM
Apparently there is a big controversy with an Israeli soldier killing a terrorist.

I dont understand the controversy, can someone explain please?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 28, 2016, 11:05:36 AM
Back to politics:
The Supreme court annulled a part of the natural gas government decision (fascinating decision in constitutional law here) so the government will have to pass it as primary legislation. As they had very hard time passing so things related to it last time I will not go far to speculate we will have elections by the end of year. Especially considering Sarah Netanyahu legal problems and shatters with the Haredi over the Western Wall.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 29, 2016, 07:28:19 AM
Back to politics:
The Supreme court annulled a part of the natural gas government decision (fascinating decision in constitutional law here) so the government will have to pass it as primary legislation.
Haven't been following this. Could you explain which parties are for, which parties are against, and why?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 29, 2016, 08:39:03 AM
Back to politics:
The Supreme court annulled a part of the natural gas government decision (fascinating decision in constitutional law here) so the government will have to pass it as primary legislation.
Haven't been following this. Could you explain which parties are for, which parties are against, and why?
The situation is rather ambiguous. Kulano are sitting on the fence here with Kachlon claiming he cannot vote due to "conflict of interests" (which is problematic because MKs are not forced by conflicts of interests in their votes). Also, some of their MKs seem to oppose the deal like Azaria. In Likud, Haim Katz appears to be against. Now without those 3 Netanyahu doesn't seem to have majority (Liberman's position is far from clear). The clear parties against are Labour and Meretz (Lapid's position is unclear right now) and the parties for are Likud and JH to a degree. Shas and Kachlon are trying to distance themselves from this. Liberman...he just enjoys tormenting BB

The situation is complicated because I think Lapid would have loved to support it without "the balancing article" that was struck down in court (and well if Likud wouldn't have profit from it).

If Netanyahu wouldn't get a majority for this I think he'll have to go to elections again. The deal with private foreign companies just looks bad to the public (Yechimovic is playing very smart here) especially considering the house of cards kind of way the deal was made. I for one would probably had supported the deal if Steiniz hadn't pulled his shenanigans and took a piss out of the administrative law here.

So this, with Sarah Netanyahu's coming criminal charge, and the closing of the option of adding ZU to the government are pretty big mines coming this summer and I believe they're gonna throw us to another election by December


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: windjammer on March 29, 2016, 11:14:19 AM
How powerful is the Supreme Court in Israel?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 29, 2016, 12:34:17 PM
How powerful is the Supreme Court in Israel?
Popular opinion: Almighty, striking laws left and right, actual ruler, most activist court in the world
Opinion of most lawyers and those who actually follow the cases and judicial policy: trying his best to keep out of the way (even in the heyday of the 90s) but every now and then is forced to act when government plays chicken with them.

Generally the court doesn't nullify too many laws or administrative acts but the government here is bent on doing things ultra vires and against the legal framework so the court is forced to intervene. Current chief justice Naor is a conservative judge and from a right wing background and still was forced to strike down the refugee detention act three times.
The problem is image, the old chief justice Barak declared the ability to strike down primary legislation as unconstitutional on fairly shaky grounds in 94. The fact that he had an "in your face" image with his decisions regarding human rights and church-state relations also didn't help.

The court here will never dare to rule over SSM\civil union, the actual legality of the settlements, or major constitutional issues. But the right still takes a stab every time they decide against the government.  


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on March 30, 2016, 01:45:13 PM
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Report-Police-scrutinize-opposition-chief-in-suspected-corruption-probe-449738

Herzog named in corruption probe.


http://www.timesofisrael.com/2-top-politicians-suspected-of-major-corruption-report/

Deri too, which is as surprising as learning expired milk can make you sick.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on April 23, 2016, 07:18:47 PM
Chag Sameach to those who celebrate.

Just wanted to know what you all thought of the latest political mishap of Labor's vilage idiot, Isaac Herzog:

"We are not Arab Lovers." - Herzog.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Herzog-Zionist-Union-should-stop-giving-the-impression-they-are-always-Arab-lovers-451743
http://972mag.com/no-herzog-arab-lovers-is-the-last-thing-you-can-say-about-labor/118738/
http://www.timesofisrael.com/yachimovich-herzogs-pandering-to-far-right-on-arabs-miserable/


I linked the last article, with Yachimovich's criticisms, because it brings up a point I brought up when I met with Jeremy Bird, the American progressive activist who led V15 for the Zionist Union, in late 2015.

We were discussing whether or not Labor will remain a political force in Israel or if it will fade into obscurity. I predicted that Herzog, but not Labor, will fade into obscurity due to his attempt to swing the party to the middle. Yachimovich seems to be trying to make this a reality, but I think this back and forth between these two will cause a fracture in the party, while Bird claims that he thinks Herzog's strategy will work.




Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on April 24, 2016, 12:57:29 AM
The name and the mass membership nature of the party means it will always have the potential to bounce back.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on April 24, 2016, 01:52:10 AM
The name and the mass membership nature of the party means it will always have the potential to bounce back.

True. The question is, i guess, when that will be. As a Likudnik, I won't mind if Labor takes another decade or so to save itself ;)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on April 27, 2016, 04:22:41 PM
Herzog is pretty much dead politically, MK Margalit seems to be pushing for leadership lately under the "witty" banner of New Labour and cringe worthy videos...Shelly\Peretz don't seem to want a leadership challenge now.

Labour is dying as well, but from radiation so it might take sometime (and if you ask me they became terminal in 99). Now the prophecy was given to the fools but I fully see a new party system in 20 years (old Likud is just beginning to die) and in some point in the near future there will be another centre bloc I reckon. 

V15 was a pathetic attempt and I wanted nothing to do with them at the time and predicted it was a waste of resources, this is not American politics and that's not what works here (I guess I also have a slight bias of anti-American politics with my personal history)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 11, 2016, 09:02:23 AM
Well I guess this is make or break, a coalition agreement between ZU and Likud is pretty much drafted (ZU will get lost of ministerial post but JH stays in and original coalition guidelines in place). Herzog is facing an outright rebellion with 19\24 MKs against (and Livni saying it will break ZU apart) but lots of local activists (mayors and such) are for.
It's a lose-lose situation for him, he's a lame-duck but I guess he wants some time as a foreign minister before they behead him. The Question is will he have the nerve the break ZU and even Labour apart for this.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on May 11, 2016, 02:37:39 PM
Moshe Gafni (UTJ MK, belonging to the non-Hasidic faction of the party -- Degel HaTorah) stated in a haredi magazine that he wants JH out of the coalition and ZU in. He also took a jab at party leader Yaakov Litzman (who leads the Hasidic faction of the party --  Agudat Yisrael), stating that Litzman "is friends with people who are destroying the Torah world and with the head of a party that isn't working in the interest of the Haredi community" (=Bennett).

You gotta love Israeli politics.

On another note, ZU voters will be thrilled by the perspective of Herzog propping up a Bibi-Bennett government just when Bibi needs it the most. Especially considering the fact that many of them voted for them because of their only campaign issue, namely "PLS NO BIBI ANYMORE".

()


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MalaspinaGold on May 11, 2016, 04:04:10 PM
Moshe Gafni (UTJ MK, belonging to the non-Hasidic faction of the party -- Degel HaTorah) stated in a haredi magazine that he wants JH out of the coalition and ZU in. He also took a jab at party leader Yaakov Litzman (who leads the Hasidic faction of the party --  Agudat Yisrael), stating that Litzman "is friends with people who are destroying the Torah world and with the head of a party that isn't working in the interest of the Haredi community" (=Bennett).

You gotta love Israeli politics.

On another note, ZU voters will be thrilled by the perspective of Herzog propping up a Bibi-Bennett government just when Bibi needs it the most. Especially considering the fact that many of them voted for them because of their only campaign issue, namely "PLS NO BIBI ANYMORE".

()

I've been following Israeli politics for a while, and I still can't figure out what the internal politics behind Degel and Agudas. I've always had a soft spot for Litzman because of his decent tenure as deputy Health Minister, but also for Gafni for other reasons (such as somewhat social democratic economic views.) Good to see he hates The Bald One almost as much as I do.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on May 12, 2016, 02:42:04 AM
So is this good news for Meretz?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on May 12, 2016, 02:53:17 AM

eh. I dont' see any major bump for them from this whole ZU fiasco, maybe a seat or two?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 12, 2016, 09:29:44 AM
+1 seat tops, this is more of a birthday gift for Lapid


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: ag on May 12, 2016, 10:04:50 AM
Why the hell does he do it? What is the motivation?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 12, 2016, 11:11:44 AM
Why the hell does he do it? What is the motivation?
Dead men walking have weird ways to go about, I guess he thought he could float like this for 2 years as his lots of field activists and mayors are for but he didn't think the response from the MKs and others would be so bad. And walla he's porked from every direction now.

but at least Labour MKs found some backbone that wouldn't have happened 10 years ago (the shameful sights of 2001)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 12, 2016, 12:45:43 PM
So Herzog with an official statement said they didn't receive a good offer from Likud a one "he could take" he wants to have "hands on the sterring wheel" meaning not only ministerial posts but control of negotiations with the Palestinians. So for now this is off but as his entire parliamentary faction was in open revolt in recent days  I can't see him soldiering on like that without another leadership election soon to regain some mandate.

On a side note, Livni might pretend she's leading a faction of her own but bar for Hasson (who also took measures to familiarize with Labour membership recently) I doubt they are lining according to her whip. So we will both see a Labour leadership election followed by a decision whether to merge parties as well.

I have theory...I think we'll see a new realignment into new different parties from the centre to left in the next 5 years. Labour is steadily breaking into 2 different parties with contrasting platforms, Meretz raison d'etre was exhausted in 2001 and it's starting to be rather clear and the fact many left voters keeping voting for centre heroes also has its ramifications  


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on May 12, 2016, 08:50:45 PM
So Herzog with an official statement said they didn't receive a good offer from Likud a one "he could take" he wants to have "hands on the sterring wheel" meaning not only ministerial posts but control of negotiations with the Palestinians. So for now this is off but as his entire parliamentary faction was in open revolt in recent days  I can't see him soldiering on like that without another leadership election soon to regain some mandate.

On a side note, Livni might pretend she's leading a faction of her own but bar for Hasson (who also took measures to familiarize with Labour membership recently) I doubt they are lining according to her whip. So we will both see a Labour leadership election followed by a decision whether to merge parties as well.

I have theory...I think we'll see a new realignment into new different parties from the centre to left in the next 5 years. Labour is steadily breaking into 2 different parties with contrasting platforms, Meretz raison d'etre was exhausted in 2001 and it's starting to be rather clear and the fact many left voters keeping voting for centre heroes also has its ramifications  

I assume you mean a peace party and a socialist party, right?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 13, 2016, 04:23:24 AM
So Herzog with an official statement said they didn't receive a good offer from Likud a one "he could take" he wants to have "hands on the sterring wheel" meaning not only ministerial posts but control of negotiations with the Palestinians. So for now this is off but as his entire parliamentary faction was in open revolt in recent days  I can't see him soldiering on like that without another leadership election soon to regain some mandate.

On a side note, Livni might pretend she's leading a faction of her own but bar for Hasson (who also took measures to familiarize with Labour membership recently) I doubt they are lining according to her whip. So we will both see a Labour leadership election followed by a decision whether to merge parties as well.

I have theory...I think we'll see a new realignment into new different parties from the centre to left in the next 5 years. Labour is steadily breaking into 2 different parties with contrasting platforms, Meretz raison d'etre was exhausted in 2001 and it's starting to be rather clear and the fact many left voters keeping voting for centre heroes also has its ramifications  

I assume you mean a peace party and a socialist party, right?
a centrist-small l liberal party between YA and labour old guard, a socialist party with the respective elements in Labour-Meretz, a radical human rights party from Meretz, some radical parts of Labour and young leftists. The farmers\workers federation type voters would probably disperse across the map


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DC Al Fine on May 13, 2016, 04:34:27 AM
Are there any places where I can look up polling since the last election? Wikipedia doesn't seem to have anything.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on May 13, 2016, 06:38:40 PM
Are there any places where I can look up polling since the last election? Wikipedia doesn't seem to have anything.
The last one that I know of from march 9:

Channel one poll:

Likud: 25
Yesh Atid: 21
ZU: 15
Joint List: 13
Jewish Home: 12
Yisrael Beitenu: 8
UTJ: 7
Shas: 7
Meretz: 6
Kulanu: 6

The biggest change being the collapse of ZU (Herzog has been terrible) with the lost votes being gained by Lapid.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on May 15, 2016, 03:41:13 PM
Are there any places where I can look up polling since the last election? Wikipedia doesn't seem to have anything.
Poll by Smith for Reshet Bet Radio, 25 March:
26 [-4] Likud
19 [+8] Yesh Atid
17 [-7] Zionist Union
12 [-1] The Joint (Arab) List
11 [+3] Bayit Yehudi
08 [+2] Yisrael Beitenu
07 [-3] Kulanu
07 [+/-] Shas
07 [+1] Yahadut Hatorah/UTJ
06 [+1] Meretz

Basically, YA wins ZU + Kulanu voters and strategic Likud voters go back to BY and YB.

a centrist-small l liberal party between YA and labour old guard, a socialist party with the respective elements in Labour-Meretz, a radical human rights party from Meretz, some radical parts of Labour and young leftists. The farmers\workers federation type voters would probably disperse across the map
Do you think there's room for three parties? Wouldn't it be more logical to split into a small-l liberal party on Labour's right (Hatnua + Labour right) and a socialist + "human rights" party to Labour's left (Meretz + Labour left)?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on May 15, 2016, 08:58:47 PM
Are there any places where I can look up polling since the last election? Wikipedia doesn't seem to have anything.
Poll by Smith for Reshet Bet Radio, 25 March:
26 [-4] Likud
19 [+8] Yesh Atid
17 [-7] Zionist Union
12 [-1] The Joint (Arab) List
11 [+3] Bayit Yehudi
08 [+2] Yisrael Beitenu
07 [-3] Kulanu
07 [+/-] Shas
07 [+1] Yahadut Hatorah/UTJ
06 [+1] Meretz

Basically, YA wins ZU + Kulanu voters and strategic Likud voters go back to BY and YB.

a centrist-small l liberal party between YA and labour old guard, a socialist party with the respective elements in Labour-Meretz, a radical human rights party from Meretz, some radical parts of Labour and young leftists. The farmers\workers federation type voters would probably disperse across the map
Do you think there's room for three parties? Wouldn't it be more logical to split into a small-l liberal party on Labour's right (Hatnua + Labour right) and a socialist + "human rights" party to Labour's left (Meretz + Labour left)?

Maybe more logical but it's not politically realistic at all. We're much more likely to see a link up between Meretz/Livni/Labor Right/Various BS centrists. "Human rights" types and socialists have never gotten along. Socialists always hold out hope of winning hawkish working class Sephardim.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 16, 2016, 05:24:24 AM

a centrist-small l liberal party between YA and labour old guard, a socialist party with the respective elements in Labour-Meretz, a radical human rights party from Meretz, some radical parts of Labour and young leftists. The farmers\workers federation type voters would probably disperse across the map
Do you think there's room for three parties? Wouldn't it be more logical to split into a small-l liberal party on Labour's right (Hatnua + Labour right) and a socialist + "human rights" party to Labour's left (Meretz + Labour left)?

Hatnua isn't really to Labour's right on some issues and Labour SDs are sometimes the most right wing in the party. Socialists and human rights don't get along (it's tearing Meretz from the inside) it was a forced union that happened due the circumstances of the early 90's


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on May 16, 2016, 12:09:16 PM
New poll from channel 10:

Likud: 25
YA: 20
JL: 14
ZU: 13
JH: 12
YB: 9
Kulanu: 9
Shas: 6
UTJ: 6
Meretz: 6


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 16, 2016, 03:45:29 PM
Herzog continues negotiating with Likud and he demands one of Justice\culture\communication ministries as a symbolic victory. I'm at a point I don't understand his aim, most of his party already announced their reluctance to join and he may get support in the party convention but that won't be enough (plus it will the definite splinter of Livni and her ilk).
He claims there some pressing diplomatic issues at stake here but I find it hard to believe (I'm sure BB would love him as a moderate foreign minister stopping those evil French). Even if does pull it off and goes in he's done at the next leadership election   


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MalaspinaGold on May 16, 2016, 03:59:22 PM

a centrist-small l liberal party between YA and labour old guard, a socialist party with the respective elements in Labour-Meretz, a radical human rights party from Meretz, some radical parts of Labour and young leftists. The farmers\workers federation type voters would probably disperse across the map
Do you think there's room for three parties? Wouldn't it be more logical to split into a small-l liberal party on Labour's right (Hatnua + Labour right) and a socialist + "human rights" party to Labour's left (Meretz + Labour left)?

Hatnua isn't really to Labour's right on some issues and Labour SDs are sometimes the most right wing in the party. Socialists and human rights don't get along (it's tearing Meretz from the inside) it was a forced union that happened due the circumstances of the early 90's
Can you go more into depth about this?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 16, 2016, 04:14:15 PM

a centrist-small l liberal party between YA and labour old guard, a socialist party with the respective elements in Labour-Meretz, a radical human rights party from Meretz, some radical parts of Labour and young leftists. The farmers\workers federation type voters would probably disperse across the map
Do you think there's room for three parties? Wouldn't it be more logical to split into a small-l liberal party on Labour's right (Hatnua + Labour right) and a socialist + "human rights" party to Labour's left (Meretz + Labour left)?

Hatnua isn't really to Labour's right on some issues and Labour SDs are sometimes the most right wing in the party. Socialists and human rights don't get along (it's tearing Meretz from the inside) it was a forced union that happened due the circumstances of the early 90's
Can you go more into depth about this?
Well in the late 80's and early 90's three parties decided to merge, Dovish-liberal Shinoi, radial Ratz, and socialist Mapam. The reason for the merger was the first intifadda that put those three parties on the same line as pro-PLO talks and anti-occupation. The old economic lines were irrelevant back then and Mapam (which was always the right wing element toward the Palestinian issue) was shell shocked after  the 88 elections. In 96 there was a formal union, but things never went quite smoothly and there was a series of conflicts between opposing figures from each side.

More recently Ilan Gilon leads the "reds", who want to dim out on the Palestinian issue and try attracting working class Jewish voters on a socialist platform. Gilon is very popular with the youth branch and student groups and recent interior elections had a very ugly tone to them. Mainly the recent party CEO elections between Gilon's prodigy and veteran Mossi Raz. Now the election of the new Youth branch leadership are coming up which will increase hostility and animosity who are already running pretty high.

I heard from now a few party activists they wish Gilon would go with he posse and join Yechimovich in some new SD bloc. With the imminent collapse of the remnants of the Oslo process  I think we'll see things moving faster towards a split.

I could go further but this is as esoteric like battles within Vermont's progressive party ;) I personally began on the Mapam side of the equation but I'm far from those views nowadays


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on May 16, 2016, 04:49:34 PM
The split between peaceniks and socialists has been ongoing on the Israeli left for years. It played out in the last 3 Meretz leadership elections and the last 3 Labor leadership elections at least.

Basically socialists, while they may want peace, want socialism more and they are willing to ally with socialist hawks to get it.

Doves, while they may want socialism, want peace more and they ally with technocratic neo-liberal doves to get it.

Each faction is sort of cool with the other but doesn't want them to dictate the nature of campaigning.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 18, 2016, 11:15:11 AM
Bibi is a political genius, Liberman joining the coalition and Herzog demolished in a single stroke.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on May 18, 2016, 11:37:19 AM
Bibi is a political genius, Liberman joining the coalition and Herzog demolished in a single stroke.

Yup. It's honestly insane how he's mastered the game. Good news for supporters of the coalition. Herzog is quickly becoming a candidate for a political darwin award.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on May 18, 2016, 11:50:34 AM
Today is an amazing day. SO glad Ya'alon will be gone. And the infighting on the left is hilarious.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 18, 2016, 01:08:46 PM
Begin (son of) called this a crazy decision and said Bibi cares for his political well-being more than off the state (harsh words coming from him) but bar from him and Ya'alon can't see anyone else causing a fuss in Likud ranks. On Labour's side on the other hand several MKs called for Herzog's resignation with Galon and Oda calling for his sacking as head of the opposition. As I kept stressing this recent days I just couldn't understand what he was doing, it was a lose-lose all around and it was pretty obvious he was being played. What a tool, question is how fast can the parliamentary faction force a leadership election.

Quote
Today is an amazing day. SO glad Ya'alon will be gone. And the infighting on the left is hilarious.
I resent you naming Labour as part of the left. I'm actually for the most right wing government forming (and always against unity governments), go on lets see what you are up to, Liberman as MoD will be a catastrophe. His relationship with the IDF will be toxic from day 1. and well...Talk about moves that will agitate the international community further. 


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on May 18, 2016, 01:53:11 PM
I resent you naming Labour as part of the left. I'm actually for the most right wing government forming (and always against unity governments), go on lets see what you are up to, Liberman as MoD will be a catastrophe. His relationship with the IDF will be toxic from day 1. and well...Talk about moves that will agitate the international community further. 
Lieberman is exactly the kind of MoD Israel needs, I just hope Bibi will not constrain him too much. He will surely face resistance from within the army, but the army is changing too, and Lieberman can help speed up this transformation, which is obviously taking place on other departments as well. Foreign countries will always whine when Israel defends itself adequately and they will only stop whining when more Jews are being killed and more Jewish power is lost, so if anything, international agitation would show that the government is on the right track.

Regarding Labour, well... even Herzog called Yachimovich "extreme left" today :)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 18, 2016, 02:37:48 PM
I resent you naming Labour as part of the left. I'm actually for the most right wing government forming (and always against unity governments), go on lets see what you are up to, Liberman as MoD will be a catastrophe. His relationship with the IDF will be toxic from day 1. and well...Talk about moves that will agitate the international community further. 
Lieberman is exactly the kind of MoD Israel needs, I just hope Bibi will not constrain him too much. He will surely face resistance from within the army, but the army is changing too, and Lieberman can help speed up this transformation, which is obviously taking place on other departments as well. Foreign countries will always whine when Israel defends itself adequately and they will only stop whining when more Jews are being killed and more Jewish power is lost, so if anything, international agitation would show that the government is on the right track.

Regarding Labour, well... even Herzog called Yachimovich "extreme left" today :)
You're wise enough to be aware that your argument there was ad verecundiam.

Well I worked in the MoD back in the days and I know the corridors, they will simply go over his head on everything important, Like when Peretz was MoD and everything important when directly to the PM's military aide-de-camp. I think you should have wanted Bennet not the thug, or as we say a barking dog doesn't bite.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on May 18, 2016, 03:07:00 PM
Not a fan of Liberman, who is similar to Trump since before Trump was a thing. Someone who likes to do that whole tough guy shtick with very little content to back it up.

Having said that, this is still a positive development, since the government needs more MK's to pass things without some random annoyance like Hazan or Amsalem getting in the way, and I wasn't happy with Boogies recent conduct anyway.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MalaspinaGold on May 18, 2016, 09:10:00 PM
Not a fan of Liberman, who is similar to Trump since before Trump was a thing. Someone who likes to do that whole tough guy shtick with very little content to back it up.

Having said that, this is still a positive development, since the government needs more MK's to pass things without some random annoyance like Hazan or Amsalem getting in the way, and I wasn't happy with Boogies recent conduct anyway.
I for one can't really understand the latest "left-wing" infatuation with Yaalon. After all, this is the one who called for just segregated busing in the West Bank just last year. Almost as self-serving as Lieberman.

Anyway, I think Herzog's slow motion car crash/seppuku/jumping headfirst into quicksand wearing a lead vest can be explained in light of this:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/seeking-new-peace-push-blair-said-to-have-been-key-to-herzog-netanyahu-talks/ (http://www.timesofisrael.com/seeking-new-peace-push-blair-said-to-have-been-key-to-herzog-netanyahu-talks/)
As with every other problem in the Middle East, Tony Blair is involved. Go finks yourself Tony.

Also, this seems relevant: ()


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 19, 2016, 10:58:19 AM
Orli Levi Abuksis announced in a shock move she's leaving YB right before their entry to the coalition which makes YB one of the smallest factions in the house with only 5 MKs. She said the social requirements were neglected in the coalition talks (which is good because she wanted to have a sub prime bubble here). She was always considered a good MK and a moderate within the party, I guess Lapid will try to attract her to join now.

Bibi promised to fulfil Liberman's demand for "death penalty for terrorists" which is pretty weird as it is already the law but the military courts decide not to activate it. So I guess they'll try making this a mandatory penalty for murder offence in specific Mens Rea which will result in a constitutional cluster F and a certain void. 


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on May 19, 2016, 11:47:35 AM
Bibi promised to fulfil Liberman's demand for "death penalty for terrorists" which is pretty weird as it is already the law but the military courts decide not to activate it. So I guess they'll try making this a mandatory penalty for murder offence in specific Mens Rea which will result in a constitutional cluster F and a certain void.  
Apparently, this is not even happening. The only thing that seems to change (if I understand it correctly, but I'm not 100% sure about it) is that two out of three judges agreeing with using the death penalty will now be sufficient to execute it (and to execute them...), instead of having the support of all three judges, as is now the case. Won't change a thing in reality, because the death penalty never gets recommended anyway. Nothing for any right-winger to be happy about, unfortunately. The Israeli right is so good at making symbolic things look big while changing nothing at all. This is exactly why people come to hate politics, and why politicians have to pull off more and more extreme tricks to get people to the ballot box (see: Netanyahu and his antics).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on May 19, 2016, 03:28:47 PM
Orli Levi Abuksis announced in a shock move she's leaving YB right before their entry to the coalition which makes YB one of the smallest factions in the house with only 5 MKs. She said the social requirements were neglected in the coalition talks (which is good because she wanted to have a sub prime bubble here). She was always considered a good MK and a moderate within the party, I guess Lapid will try to attract her to join now.

Bibi promised to fulfil Liberman's demand for "death penalty for terrorists" which is pretty weird as it is already the law but the military courts decide not to activate it. So I guess they'll try making this a mandatory penalty for murder offence in specific Mens Rea which will result in a constitutional cluster F and a certain void. 

Orly Levy, like her father, has a messiah complex, imo.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on May 19, 2016, 04:11:26 PM
Just last election, she was mulling over an offer to join Likud outright.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: ag on May 19, 2016, 04:43:19 PM
Ideologically coherent Israeli government. Hard to object to that, as long as I do not much care for Israel. I, actually, much prefer this to Labor getting into this mess. Herzog should be kicked out.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on May 19, 2016, 07:08:10 PM
Just last election, she was mulling over an offer to join Likud outright.

Yup. Whatever gives her more leverage is what she will do. Just like David Levy.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MalaspinaGold on May 19, 2016, 09:40:52 PM
Moshe Gafni (UTJ MK, belonging to the non-Hasidic faction of the party -- Degel HaTorah) stated in a haredi magazine that he wants JH out of the coalition and ZU in. He also took a jab at party leader Yaakov Litzman (who leads the Hasidic faction of the party --  Agudat Yisrael), stating that Litzman "is friends with people who are destroying the Torah world and with the head of a party that isn't working in the interest of the Haredi community" (=Bennett).

You gotta love Israeli politics.

On another note, ZU voters will be thrilled by the perspective of Herzog propping up a Bibi-Bennett government just when Bibi needs it the most. Especially considering the fact that many of them voted for them because of their only campaign issue, namely "PLS NO BIBI ANYMORE".


Gotta wonder what Gafni's thinking now.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 20, 2016, 06:49:06 AM
Well Ya'alon just resigned, and left Likud claiming he's going to contest for 'national leadership next' (Kachlon-saar-Ya'alon?)
Yehuda Glick number 33 on Likud's ballot will be made MK


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on May 20, 2016, 02:17:21 PM
Bye, Bogie. Maybe you'll learn how to be a non-crappy politician in the future. All respect to you on your IDF service and service as Def. Min, but clearly, you needed to go.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 23, 2016, 10:43:33 AM
Liberman, Bennett, and Kachlon all showing some muscles so the new coalition is delayed. Nothing big will be sorted soon.

MK Micky Zohar (Likud) plans on resigning. Advocate Osnat Hilla Mark wil be sworn in instead. Frankly never even heard her name


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on May 23, 2016, 12:22:20 PM
Liberman, Bennett, and Kachlon all showing some muscles so the new coalition is delayed. Nothing big will be sorted soon.

MK Micky Zohar (Likud) plans on resigning. Advocate Osnat Hilla Mark wil be sworn in instead. Frankly never even heard her name

Related to Ya'alon's resignation? Or something else?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on May 23, 2016, 12:25:51 PM
MK Micky Zohar (Likud) plans on resigning. Advocate Osnat Hilla Mark wil be sworn in instead. Frankly never even heard her name
Neither did Bibi, probably.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on May 23, 2016, 12:33:42 PM
Liberman, Bennett, and Kachlon all showing some muscles so the new coalition is delayed. Nothing big will be sorted soon.

MK Micky Zohar (Likud) plans on resigning. Advocate Osnat Hilla Mark wil be sworn in instead. Frankly never even heard her name

Related to Ya'alon's resignation? Or something else?

"Personal reasons" although he's no doubt upset by the switch from Ya'alon to Lieberman, which is a shift to the left on both the Palestinian issue and religious/secular issues, both of which Zohar was firmly to the right of Netanyahu on.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on May 23, 2016, 12:44:54 PM
Liberman, Bennett, and Kachlon all showing some muscles so the new coalition is delayed. Nothing big will be sorted soon.

MK Micky Zohar (Likud) plans on resigning. Advocate Osnat Hilla Mark wil be sworn in instead. Frankly never even heard her name

Related to Ya'alon's resignation? Or something else?

"Personal reasons" although he's no doubt upset by the switch from Ya'alon to Lieberman, which is a shift to the left on both the Palestinian issue and religious/secular issues, both of which Zohar was firmly to the right of Netanyahu on.

Ah ok. Makes sense.  Sad to see him go, but life goes on.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MalaspinaGold on May 23, 2016, 01:19:32 PM
Liberman, Bennett, and Kachlon all showing some muscles so the new coalition is delayed. Nothing big will be sorted soon.

MK Micky Zohar (Likud) plans on resigning. Advocate Osnat Hilla Mark wil be sworn in instead. Frankly never even heard her name

Related to Ya'alon's resignation? Or something else?

"Personal reasons" although he's no doubt upset by the switch from Ya'alon to Lieberman, which is a shift to the left on both the Palestinian issue and religious/secular issues, both of which Zohar was firmly to the right of Netanyahu on.
Except Lieberman's not actually a shift to the "left" on the Palestinian issue, certainly not where the Defense Ministry is concerned.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 23, 2016, 01:53:53 PM
Liberman, Bennett, and Kachlon all showing some muscles so the new coalition is delayed. Nothing big will be sorted soon.

MK Micky Zohar (Likud) plans on resigning. Advocate Osnat Hilla Mark wil be sworn in instead. Frankly never even heard her name
Related to Ya'alon's resignation? Or something else?

"Personal reasons" although he's no doubt upset by the switch from Ya'alon to Lieberman, which is a shift to the left on both the Palestinian issue and religious/secular issues, both of which Zohar was firmly to the right of Netanyahu on.
My guess is something completely personal and unrelated. Don't think he gave a toss about Ya'alon and Liberman agreed to all religious Haredi demands anyhow. Zohar is a quirky fellow from "Kabbalah to the people" a weird new movement\sect\cult that got thousands to register within Likud


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on May 23, 2016, 02:29:30 PM
Zohar is a quirky fellow from "Kabbalah to the people" a weird new movement\sect\cult that got thousands to register within Likud
Is that related to the Laitman weirdo?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 23, 2016, 02:34:40 PM
Zohar is a quirky fellow from "Kabbalah to the people" a weird new movement\sect\cult that got thousands to register within Likud
Is that related to the Laitman weirdo?
Yep, don't know them all that well as they virtually non existent in my social circles but I heard they are rather surging in the lower middle class periphery and even did very well in the local elections in Petah Tikva


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on May 23, 2016, 04:04:57 PM
Zohar is a quirky fellow from "Kabbalah to the people" a weird new movement\sect\cult that got thousands to register within Likud
Is that related to the Laitman weirdo?
Yep, don't know them all that well as they virtually non existent in my social circles but I heard they are rather surging in the lower middle class periphery and even did very well in the local elections in Petah Tikva
Oh. They are basically one big scam. I lost a friend to that sect. Apparently, they're popular among Russian olim. These people should not be in the Knesset, so good riddance.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MalaspinaGold on May 24, 2016, 12:24:52 AM
Zohar is a quirky fellow from "Kabbalah to the people" a weird new movement\sect\cult that got thousands to register within Likud
Is that related to the Laitman weirdo?
Yep, don't know them all that well as they virtually non existent in my social circles but I heard they are rather surging in the lower middle class periphery and even did very well in the local elections in Petah Tikva
Wait really? When did this happen? I thought Zohar was just another boring Mizrahi machine politician from the Negev?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 24, 2016, 03:02:33 AM
Zohar is a quirky fellow from "Kabbalah to the people" a weird new movement\sect\cult that got thousands to register within Likud
Is that related to the Laitman weirdo?
Yep, don't know them all that well as they virtually non existent in my social circles but I heard they are rather surging in the lower middle class periphery and even did very well in the local elections in Petah Tikva
Wait really? When did this happen? I thought Zohar was just another boring Mizrahi machine politician from the Negev?
Nope, they won 4 seats in the Petah Tikva city council and registered en masse to Likud. I honestly don't know much about them bar for the fact that they mix Kabbalah (which is odd in the first place) with some weird new age stuff and Haredis don't like them much.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 27, 2016, 05:17:25 AM
Environmental Protection minister Gabai resigned this morning due to Liberman's appointment to the MoD and "The government's far-right turn'. Kachlon announced Kulano will retain the ministry


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on May 27, 2016, 11:04:47 AM
New poll from Reshet Bet:
Likud: 28
Yesh Atid: 19
ZU:15
Joint List: 13
Jewish Home: 10
Yisrael Beitenu: 8
UTJ: 8
Shas: 7
Kulanu: 6
Meretz: 6

If a new party is formed which includes Saar Ya'alon and Kachlon:
New party: 25
Likud: 21
Joint List: 13
Yesh Atid: 13
ZU: 15
Jewish Home: 10
Yisrael Beitenu: 8
UTJ: 8
Shas: 6
Meretz: 5


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on May 29, 2016, 04:53:42 PM
This poll by Geocartography (29 May) suggests that the collapse of the "Zionist" (lol) "Union" (lol) will not be televised -- it will be live...

27 [30] Likud
21 [11] Yesh Atid
14 [08] Jewish Home
13 [13] Joint List
10 [06] UTJ
08 [24] Zionist Union
08 [06] Yisrael Beitenu
08 [05] Meretz
07 [10] Kulanu
04 [07] Shas

Don't know what's up with the weird UTJ figure, but according to Geocartography, only 70% of UTJ voters in this poll self-identify as Haredi. I'm taking this poll with a grain of salt. On the other hand, the trend regarding the left is plausible, with ZU losing seats both on its left (Meretz) and on its right (Yesh Atid). Meanwhile, it seems that Shas is starting to lose appeal. Of course, many predicted this would eventually happen after the death of R' Yosef.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on May 29, 2016, 05:12:27 PM
Geocartography is a joke pollster, I purposefully don't post those here and suggest that they should be ignored. I remember UTJ being at 11 in a poll done before the last election and the Kahannists at 6 two elections ago.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on May 29, 2016, 05:18:24 PM
Geocartography is a joke pollster, I purposefully don't post those here and suggest that they should be ignored. I remember UTJ being at 11 in a poll done before the last election and the Kahannists at 6 two elections ago.
Yeah it's probably the worst pollster out there, but I do think this poll isn't incorrect when it comes to trends. The figures for some parties (ZU, JH, UTJ) are simply terribly off.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 30, 2016, 04:36:49 AM
Geocartography is a joke pollster, I purposefully don't post those here and suggest that they should be ignored. I remember UTJ being at 11 in a poll done before the last election and the Kahannists at 6 two elections ago.
This.
UTJ is on the verge of breaking up and they're on 10? also no way can ZU be down to 8. The trends are pretty clear but it doesn't make a difference, in Israel voting is shaped towards an election (And especially in the last 72 hours) so polls in between are meaningless


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on May 30, 2016, 04:46:55 AM
The trends are pretty clear but it doesn't make a difference, in Israel voting is shaped towards an election (And especially in the last 72 hours) so polls in between are meaningless
This is what they say about the Netherlands too, but I disagree. A poll is not a prediction. A poll is a poll, and if you have a few of them, they can be useful in identifying trends for political parties (positive/stable/negative). Of course, one should not expect that the result of the next election will look anything like any poll that is presented now. They measure current voting intention, not voting intention in three years or even five months.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on May 30, 2016, 05:56:08 AM
Why is UTJ breaking up?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 30, 2016, 11:23:32 AM
Hasidic and Lithuanians in fighting with the Liths already breaking apart from the inside. Rumors of them running with Shas together next time and Aguda running alone


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on May 31, 2016, 03:14:07 PM
Lieberman is leaving the Knesset to become defence minster under the "Norwegian law" and will be replaced by Yulia Melinovski. Yulia was born in Ukraine, so this won't change the number of MK's born in the USSR for ag's count, but will bring up the number of female MK's to 33, which is a new record.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Comrade Funk on June 16, 2016, 10:18:45 AM
Ya'alon is running for PM


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on June 16, 2016, 11:04:21 AM
Good luck with that...he'll need to find an excisting party to run at or I can't see him getting the funds to fight the french mafia friend.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on June 16, 2016, 11:15:23 AM

That was well known, he said so when he resigned. He also made the accusation against the government that they are trying to scare the population, this despite the fact that until recently he was very much a part of these "scare tactics".


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on June 16, 2016, 11:43:02 AM
Lol Ya'alon.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on June 16, 2016, 12:00:48 PM

That was well known, he said so when he resigned. He also made the accusation against the government that they are trying to scare the population, this despite the fact that until recently he was very much a part of these "scare tactics".
Honestly he wasn't, he was never quite the orator and I don't recall him commenting on Iran much (that was Bibi's shtick). He's in a bit of a pickle, he won't go to Labour (he still enjoys a centre-right image), Lapid would not be number 2 to god all mighty, Kachlon will back down and maye Sa'ar but I'm not sure framing it as a moses vs Bibi battle again would help.

Anyway, I think (with my knowledge of Israeli legal system and its corridors) Bibi might call on an election this coming year in a last ditch attempt to save himself. There's an alarming amount of investigation (in the very criminal sense) around him and his consort, and like Olmert this is going to be the case of quantity over quality. The material coming out of the French court makes it hard even for his bought police and state prosecutor to ignore. I'm willing to be a 100NIS against our Israeli posters he's done


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on June 16, 2016, 12:23:13 PM
And in the LOL of the day: Ehud Barak implies returning to politics. How blind is he? his stock is worth nothing


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on June 16, 2016, 12:26:48 PM
Honestly he wasn't, he was never quite the orator and I don't recall him commenting on Iran much (that was Bibi's shtick). He's in a bit of a pickle, he won't go to Labour (he still enjoys a centre-right image), Lapid would not be number 2 to god all mighty, Kachlon will back down and maye Sa'ar but I'm not sure framing it as a moses vs Bibi battle again would help.

https://twitter.com/danco540/status/743427558184722432
https://twitter.com/amit_segal/status/743437918841282561

He isn't a great orator but he still does interviews, and until recently he was absolutely on the same page as Bibi.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on June 16, 2016, 12:29:15 PM
That was well known, he said so when he resigned. He also made the accusation against the government that they are trying to scare the population, this despite the fact that until recently he was very much a part of these "scare tactics".
Honestly he wasn't, he was never quite the orator and I don't recall him commenting on Iran much (that was Bibi's shtick). He's in a bit of a pickle, he won't go to Labour (he still enjoys a centre-right image), Lapid would not be number 2 to god all mighty, Kachlon will back down and maye Sa'ar but I'm not sure framing it as a moses vs Bibi battle again would help.

https://twitter.com/danco540/status/743427558184722432
https://twitter.com/amit_segal/status/743437918841282561
[/quote]
First, he could have changed his mind considering change in facts, or he just fell with government line. But do you honestly recall him commenting on Iran as a major theme? and if political journalists are to be believed he was against an attack in the 09-13 cabinet.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on June 16, 2016, 12:36:23 PM
If he changed his mind then he should say so and explain why, not just pretend it never happened. Leaving the government and then immediately attacking it for things you were saying yourself when you were there with no acknowledgement that you were doing that is ridiculous.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on June 16, 2016, 01:03:22 PM
If he changed his mind then he should say so and explain why, not just pretend it never happened. Leaving the government and then immediately attacking it for things you were saying yourself when you were there with no acknowledgement that you were doing that is ridiculous.
Saying someone doesn't even qualify to be a military pundit and then a month later appointing him as minister of defence is ridiculous. Breaking your allegiance to the government after you leave it is political, you sometimes have to keep in line as a part of the whole


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on June 16, 2016, 01:24:55 PM
Saying someone doesn't even qualify to be a military pundit and then a month later appointing him as minister of defence is ridiculous. Breaking your allegiance to the government after you leave it is political, you sometimes have to keep in line as a part of the whole

Of course what Bibi did was ridiculous, while also being normal politics (Lieberman attacked him so he attacked him back, it was obvious neither side really meant it at the time). Breaking allegiance with the government after you leave it is political, but attacking an opinion you yourself espoused (or pretended to) until not long ago isn't, and should require an explanation.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 31, 2016, 12:55:08 PM
So Labour Party convention voted to postpone the leadership election to July 2017. A blow to Margalit, Yechinovic, and Bar Lev


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Californiadreaming on July 31, 2016, 01:54:52 PM
So Labour Party convention voted to postpone the leadership election to July 2017. A blow to Margalit, Yechinovic, and Bar Lev
Who is this a victory for, though? For Isaac Herzog?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 31, 2016, 01:57:39 PM
So Labour Party convention voted to postpone the leadership election to July 2017. A blow to Margalit, Yechinovic, and Bar Lev
Who is this a victory for, though? For Isaac Herzog?
Yes and his allies Kabel, Bar, And Nissenkorn. The selectorate will surely oust him but the party convention is under his control so he bought himself more time. As I said he keeps getting into to lose-lose situations, what a terrible man at politics.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Californiadreaming on July 31, 2016, 02:10:49 PM
So Labour Party convention voted to postpone the leadership election to July 2017. A blow to Margalit, Yechinovic, and Bar Lev
Who is this a victory for, though? For Isaac Herzog?
Yes and his allies Kabel, Bar, And Nissenkorn. The selectorate will surely oust him but the party convention is under his control so he bought himself more time. As I said he keeps getting into to lose-lose situations, what a terrible man at politics.
Are there any meaningful policy differences between pro-Herzog and anti-Herzog Labor politicians, though?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on August 01, 2016, 03:09:57 AM
So Labour Party convention voted to postpone the leadership election to July 2017. A blow to Margalit, Yechinovic, and Bar Lev
Who is this a victory for, though? For Isaac Herzog?
Yes and his allies Kabel, Bar, And Nissenkorn. The selectorate will surely oust him but the party convention is under his control so he bought himself more time. As I said he keeps getting into to lose-lose situations, what a terrible man at politics.
Are there any meaningful policy differences between pro-Herzog and anti-Herzog Labor politicians, though?
Minimal for me. But Yechimovic is more to the left economically, Margalit is more third way dem if you need an American parallel, and Herzog is free market with favours to the big unions and farmers.
On the Palestinian issues the difference is virtually non existent, all pro 2 states with some part of East Jerusalem in Palestinian hands


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on August 02, 2016, 06:13:19 PM
So Labour Party convention voted to postpone the leadership election to July 2017. A blow to Margalit, Yechinovic, and Bar Lev

I saw on twitter that there were some reports of protests at the convention, do you know how bad/hilarious/true these reports are?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on August 28, 2016, 10:36:01 AM
"Fuad" Ben Eliezer former leader of Labour and a HHP died. I wonder how the eulogies are going to look considering how much of a corrupt HP he was


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on August 28, 2016, 10:50:36 AM
"Fuad" Ben Eliezer former leader of Labour and a HHP died. I wonder how the eulogies are going to look considering how much of a corrupt HP he was

Humans are complicated and tend to have better parts and worse parts to them. When they die people tend to remember the better parts, and that's what the will do with Fuad, while ignoring the bad parts.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on August 28, 2016, 11:53:17 AM
"Fuad" Ben Eliezer former leader of Labour and a HHP died. I wonder how the eulogies are going to look considering how much of a corrupt HP he was

Humans are complicated and tend to have better parts and worse parts to them. When they die people tend to remember the better parts, and that's what the will do with Fuad, while ignoring the bad parts.
From being on Mubarak's payroll to do every cynical things in politics I can't think of a single good thing to say about him.

I'm well aware there going to be crappy sentimental eulogies (especially Yediot) I am a native after all, just wondering how much "acrobatic" they're going to show covering up all the dirt.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on August 28, 2016, 02:22:21 PM
"Fuad" Ben Eliezer former leader of Labour and a HHP died. I wonder how the eulogies are going to look considering how much of a corrupt HP he was

Humans are complicated and tend to have better parts and worse parts to them. When they die people tend to remember the better parts, and that's what the will do with Fuad, while ignoring the bad parts.
From being on Mubarak's payroll to do every cynical things in politics I can't think of a single good thing to say about him.

I'm well aware there going to be crappy sentimental eulogies (especially Yediot) I am a native after all, just wondering how much "acrobatic" they're going to show covering up all the dirt.

The man was a general in the army, and a minister (in several different ministries), it shouldn't be very hard to find good things to say about him that are true.
Even Yehimovich whom is well aware of his corruption wrote nicely about him: https://twitter.com/Syechimovich/status/769912865205596160?lang=he


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on September 02, 2016, 11:07:21 AM
new Jerusalem post/Smith:
Likud: 27
Yesh Atid: 20
Joint List: 13
Zionist Union: 12
Jewish Home: 12
Yisrael Beitenu: 9
Kulanu: 7
Shas: 7
UTJ: 7
Meretz: 6


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on September 06, 2016, 12:13:30 PM
LMAO (http://live.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Whos-behind-the-mysterious-billboards-calling-for-a-Barak-comeback-467022): billboards in Tel Aviv calling on Ehud Barak to make a comeback to Israeli politics. One has to be more than a little bit delusional to think Barak, of all people, will save the Israeli center/left, imo.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on September 06, 2016, 12:26:49 PM
According to a new channel 2 poll, The train fiasco is really hurting Bibi, for the first time since the election Likud isn't the largest party:
Yesh Atid: 24
Likud: 22
Jewish Home: 14
Zionist Union: 13
Joint List: 13
Yisrael Beitenu: 10
UTJ: 7
Kulanu: 6
Shas: 6
Meretz: 5


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on September 06, 2016, 12:59:39 PM
LMAO (http://live.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Whos-behind-the-mysterious-billboards-calling-for-a-Barak-comeback-467022): billboards in Tel Aviv calling on Ehud Barak to make a comeback to Israeli politics. One has to be more than a little bit delusional to think Barak, of all people, will save the Israeli center/left, imo.
A little bit delusional? Barak is more than a bit delusional, yes I'm also implying he's behind this, it fits the way he operates and his crooked way of thinking that he's some messiah everybody's been waiting for,

regarding the poll, tonnes of salt and meaning less - I think the last election showed us that whenever there's a serious threat to his left (though as I said Lapid being to his left is a mirage) Likud can drain the votes from JH and Liberman


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on September 06, 2016, 01:33:39 PM
The train stuff is obviously right up Yesh Atid's alley, but Lapid's not going to win a GE (partly for reasons outlined by hnv). A new election would most likely be a replay of the 2015 scenario.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on September 11, 2016, 09:31:43 AM
Channel 1 poll:
Lapid - 27
Likud - 11
JAL - 13
JH - 11
ZU - 11
Liberman - 9
UTJ - 9
Meretz - 7
Kachlon - 6
Shas - 4 (lol)

anyway it's geo-cartography poll and they are notoriously terrible


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on September 11, 2016, 07:20:35 PM
Channel 1 poll:
Lapid - 27
Likud - 11
JAL - 13
JH - 11
ZU - 11
Liberman - 9
UTJ - 9
Meretz - 7
Kachlon - 6
Shas - 4 (lol)

anyway it's geo-cartography poll and they are notoriously terrible
That should be Likud 21, right?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on September 11, 2016, 08:23:28 PM
Channel 1 poll:
Lapid - 27
Likud - 11
JAL - 13
JH - 11
ZU - 11
Liberman - 9
UTJ - 9
Meretz - 7
Kachlon - 6
Shas - 4 (lol)

anyway it's geo-cartography poll and they are notoriously terrible
That should be Likud 21, right?
23, but it's Geocartography so none of this matters.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on September 13, 2016, 01:26:05 PM
Prayers to Shimon Peres. Wish him a swift recovery.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on September 13, 2016, 03:03:31 PM
Prayers to Shimon Peres. Wish him a swift recovery.
I disliked few characters in Israeli politics more then him, but all the best.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on September 13, 2016, 10:12:10 PM
Prayers to Shimon Peres. Wish him a swift recovery.
I disliked few characters in Israeli politics more then him, but all the best.

I share the same sentiment.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on September 14, 2016, 08:21:26 AM
Same here... #horseshoe


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on September 14, 2016, 12:15:59 PM
Out of danger so it seems, so the cheesy memorial will wait


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on September 28, 2016, 04:06:43 AM
Well he passed away yesterday. I suppose we will see a grand public funeral on Friday with Obama, Clinton, Prince Charles, the Pope, and others coming. He was the last remains of his generation in politics, hell even from the next generation (the batch of the 70's or the 80's) there's hardly anyone left.
In a way it will also be the funeral for old Mapai.

I'm still shocked by the amount of popularity he gained later in his life. 


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on October 30, 2016, 06:12:01 PM
Recently had the pleasure of discussing Israeli politics with a staffer at Haaretz who is also the grand daughter of a former Knesset member.

These were her predictions. I'm wondering what the other Israelis think:

1) Shelly becomes leader of the Labor Party again
2) Ashkenazi and Barak start a new centrist party
3) Bibi stays Prime Minister for another decade, his son (who is a closeted gay) tries to replace him after that.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on October 31, 2016, 07:36:23 AM
Meanwhile, at the initiative of Shuli Mualem (BY), a new law will be introduced with support from MKs of basically all parties except Meretz: internet porn and "violent content" (which is pretty lol given that this is Israel) will automatically be blocked, though internet users can opt out of this. The bill is supported by MKs from all parties except Meretz. So this is the one time where Meretz proves to be the most pro-soldier party. Very interesting.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on October 31, 2016, 02:55:54 PM
Meanwhile, at the initiative of Shuli Mualem (BY), a new law will be introduced with support from MKs of basically all parties except Meretz: internet porn and "violent content" (which is pretty lol given that this is Israel) will automatically be blocked, though internet users can opt out of this. The bill is supported by MKs from all parties except Meretz. So this is the one time where Meretz proves to be the most pro-soldier party. Very interesting.
Imprecise, as to the content of the bill and Meretz stand. They support improved conditions for soldiers, legalization of marijuana and other policies that benefit conscripts.

Quote
Recently had the pleasure of discussing Israeli politics with a staffer at Haaretz who is also the grand daughter of a former Knesset member.

These were her predictions. I'm wondering what the other Israelis think:

1) Shelly becomes leader of the Labor Party again
2) Ashkenazi and Barak start a new centrist party
3) Bibi stays Prime Minister for another decade, his son (who is a closeted gay) tries to replace him after that.
1. Possible, but not so likely
2. When hell freezes over (it will be a useless brand anyway)
3. The first part might be true, the second will not happen.

Unsurprising really, haaretz has gone off the rails in the past 3 years - there are whole sections of the paper I completely avoid nowadays 


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on October 31, 2016, 03:04:23 PM
Imprecise, as to the content of the bill and Meretz stand. They support improved conditions for soldiers, legalization of marijuana and other policies that benefit conscripts.
That was a joke, referring to the idea that soldiers watch porn...


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on November 05, 2016, 06:23:42 PM
New poll from Reshet Bet:
Likud: 26
Yesh Atid: 21
Zionist Union: 13
Joint List: 13
Jewish Home: 12
Yisrael Beitenu: 8
Kulanu: 7
UTJ: 7
Shas: 7
Meretz: 6


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on November 17, 2016, 03:08:13 PM
Well, new allegations against Bibi's involvement in the procurement of submarines from Germany is proving to be...interesting. This might be the case to crack the dam. Sometimes it's the matter of quantity not quality, and in this multi-billion case we have both.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on November 23, 2016, 04:34:12 PM
This is starting to look like an actual big time scandal, very delicate politically as Bibi might try calling a snap election now.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on November 24, 2016, 05:27:10 PM
This is starting to look like an actual big time scandal, very delicate politically as Bibi might try calling a snap election now.

Yes, something big is happening. Still, I'm not very optimistic- not sure the Attorney General will actually do his job this time instead of ignoring it, and these new fires may consolidate support around Netanyahu because so many believe that the majority of them are terrorist acts.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on November 24, 2016, 07:03:34 PM
prayers to you guys in israel. hope  the fires get put out asap. I also hope that the arsonists (no matter how many or little there are) are caught and brought to justice in their individual cases.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Zanas on November 25, 2016, 09:09:27 AM
So what's going on in a nutshell, and what are the implications ? You were talking about submarines, and now about fires ?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on November 25, 2016, 11:11:58 AM
Submarines - allegations about some monkey business done by some attorney who represented the manufacturering German company in getting them the contract. Said attorney is also Bibi's cousin and attorney...some suspicious evidence there and the police are "examining" while not formally investigating yet. This story could reallly gain traction soon, and it seems Bibi is well aware of that.

Fire - a series of wildfires had started in the past couple of days here (and the surrounding countries) due to some peculiar climate conditions. It appears arsonists had a hand in at least some though it's too soon to draw conclusions, yet some politicians already claimed that up to 70% of the fires were perpetrated by Arabs and are a new weapon. It appears like a phenomenon of mass hysteria to me, they arrested some people with a big hoorah and then released some (they arrested one because he had toilet paper in his back pocket). The hysteria was enhanced by the fact that the fire hit the foresty city of Haifa causing tens of thousands to evacuate and burning my IKEA garden shed:(


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: ApatheticAustrian on November 25, 2016, 12:56:51 PM
prayers to you guys in israel. hope  the fires get put out asap. I also hope that the arsonists (no matter how many or little there are) are caught and brought to justice in their individual cases.

as less faith i have in the israeli government, as much faith i have in the israeli justice system.





Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: I’m not Stu on November 26, 2016, 03:31:34 AM
Will there be a special celebration when Netanyahu becomes the longest serving PM in history?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on December 01, 2016, 11:11:14 AM
Another story of sexual misconduct by a religious Bayit Yehudi MK is going to break. It's one of the six incumbent religious MKs and if it were Bennett the story would have blown up already. It's also not Smotrich: in an interview he defended this anonymous person, which will soon not be anonymous anymore. That leaves four: Ben Dahan, Slomiansky, Yogev and Ariel. My bets are on Ariel, because it makes sense for Smotrich (also Tekuma) to defend him. In any case, this would be the second BY MK in two years, after Yinon Magal, to have engaged in sexual misconduct against women. Absurd.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: President Punxsutawney Phil on December 01, 2016, 11:13:35 AM
Another story of sexual misconduct by a religious Bayit Yehudi MK is going to break. It's one of the six sitting religious MKs and if it were Bennet the story would have blown up already. It's also not Smotrich: in an interview he defended this anonymous person, which will soon not be anonymous anymore. That leaves four: Ben Dahan, Slomiansky, Yogev and Ariel. My bets are on Ariel, because it makes sense for Smotrich (also Tekuma) to defend him. In any case, this would be the second BY MK in two years, after Yinon Magal, to have engaged in sexual misconduct against women. Absurd.
Surely this is affecting their poll numbers?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on December 01, 2016, 11:45:47 AM
Another story of sexual misconduct by a religious Bayit Yehudi MK is going to break. It's one of the six sitting religious MKs and if it were Bennet the story would have blown up already. It's also not Smotrich: in an interview he defended this anonymous person, which will soon not be anonymous anymore. That leaves four: Ben Dahan, Slomiansky, Yogev and Ariel. My bets are on Ariel, because it makes sense for Smotrich (also Tekuma) to defend him. In any case, this would be the second BY MK in two years, after Yinon Magal, to have engaged in sexual misconduct against women. Absurd.
Surely this is affecting their poll numbers?
Could be, but far from certain. Who else do you vote for if you're a religious right-winger who is decidedly to the right of Likud yet no Kachnik either, as most BY voters are? I think BY's approval of the impending destruction of Amona may have a bigger impact on their polling numbers.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: President Punxsutawney Phil on December 01, 2016, 11:51:39 AM
Another story of sexual misconduct by a religious Bayit Yehudi MK is going to break. It's one of the six sitting religious MKs and if it were Bennet the story would have blown up already. It's also not Smotrich: in an interview he defended this anonymous person, which will soon not be anonymous anymore. That leaves four: Ben Dahan, Slomiansky, Yogev and Ariel. My bets are on Ariel, because it makes sense for Smotrich (also Tekuma) to defend him. In any case, this would be the second BY MK in two years, after Yinon Magal, to have engaged in sexual misconduct against women. Absurd.
Surely this is affecting their poll numbers?
Could be, but far from certain. Who else do you vote for if you're a religious right-winger who is decidedly to the right of Likud yet no Kachnik either, as most BY voters are? I think BY's approval of the impending destruction of Amona may have a bigger impact on their polling numbers.
Point taken.
Which Isreali party has the most fluid voter base?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on December 01, 2016, 12:01:36 PM

Point taken.
Which Isreali party has the most fluid voter base?

Centre parties, which right now mean Yesh Atid. This is followed by the "major parties" ZU and Likud.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: President Punxsutawney Phil on December 01, 2016, 12:06:35 PM

Point taken.
Which Isreali party has the most fluid voter base?

Centre parties, which right now mean Yesh Atid. This is followed by the "major parties" ZU and Likud.
Does Yesh Atid's young base affect this reality?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on December 01, 2016, 12:14:03 PM

Point taken.
Which Isreali party has the most fluid voter base?

Centre parties, which right now mean Yesh Atid. This is followed by the "major parties" ZU and Likud.
Does Yesh Atid's young base affect this reality?

Yesh Atid doesn't really have a base, if something goes wrong or some other party takes its place, they could go the way of Kadima, Shinui etc.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: President Punxsutawney Phil on December 01, 2016, 02:26:33 PM

Point taken.
Which Isreali party has the most fluid voter base?

Centre parties, which right now mean Yesh Atid. This is followed by the "major parties" ZU and Likud.
Does Yesh Atid's young base affect this reality?

Yesh Atid doesn't really have a base, if something goes wrong or some other party takes its place, they could go the way of Kadima, Shinui etc.
What dangers does Yesh Atid face in the short term, medium-term and long term?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on December 01, 2016, 05:00:01 PM
The Jewish Home continues to prove it can't control its own members. I like Bennett and Shaked but I dislike the Tkuma faction. I agree with DavidB, Ariel seems the likeliest bet here.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 02, 2016, 04:42:41 AM

Point taken.
Which Isreali party has the most fluid voter base?

Centre parties, which right now mean Yesh Atid. This is followed by the "major parties" ZU and Likud.
Does Yesh Atid's young base affect this reality?
It's their 30-45 medium education voters who trend so volatile

Anyway, my bet is on Nissan "porno mustache" Slomiansky.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: President Punxsutawney Phil on December 02, 2016, 04:54:41 AM

Point taken.
Which Isreali party has the most fluid voter base?

Centre parties, which right now mean Yesh Atid. This is followed by the "major parties" ZU and Likud.
Does Yesh Atid's young base affect this reality?
It's their 30-45 medium education voters who trend so volatile

Anyway, my bet is on Nissan "porno mustache" Slomiansky.
What makes the young YA supporters solid-ish, while the middle-aged ones very swingy?
Because YA is the most "hip" party and because some the middle-aged ones are ZU-YA swing voters?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 02, 2016, 05:46:11 AM

Point taken.
Which Isreali party has the most fluid voter base?

Centre parties, which right now mean Yesh Atid. This is followed by the "major parties" ZU and Likud.
Does Yesh Atid's young base affect this reality?
It's their 30-45 medium education voters who trend so volatile

Anyway, my bet is on Nissan "porno mustache" Slomiansky.
What makes the young YA supporters solid-ish, while the middle-aged ones very swingy?
Because YA is the most "hip" party and because some the middle-aged ones are ZU-YA swing voters?
Young people are more ideaological, Most YA voters in recent elections weren't first/second time voters they tend to be more ideaological to the left or the right. YA has their own bloc of young people - the boring, very Zionist proud, but uncomfortable with Likud and right views on social issues, usually hailing from the new colleges as opposed to the old universities.

There's nothing hip about YA, Lapid is universally hated by hipsters and the left.

Young voters are less likely to trend. 30-45 voters who grew up in demise of the old blocs politics are more volatile, young voters are in some way Neo-political


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on December 02, 2016, 08:49:28 AM
Anyway, my bet is on Nissan "porno mustache" Slomiansky.
Forget what I said earlier, because this is currently the safest guess, you're right: rumor has it that it's him. It's also not Ben Dahan, who also gave an interview defending the guy.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 02, 2016, 09:11:50 AM
In other news the US and our "special relationship" screw us yet again. The cabinet decided to purchase 17 more F-35 AKA piece of flying garbage and one of the biggest white elephants of military history instead of buying the new F-15 who show much better stats (and can actually fly an operational mission).

But it's "stealth"!! so all the tabloid could have headlines explaining how high tech it is, never mind it can carry a load of 2 tonnes on low signature mode and only to short ranges.

I remember back in the days of my military service how the US ed us over several times on all sort of procurement deals, the joys of being a proxy state.  


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on December 02, 2016, 09:31:35 AM
In other news the US and our "special relationship" screw us yet again. The cabinet decided to purchase 17 more F-35 AKA piece of flying garbage and one of the biggest white elephants of military history instead of buying the new F-15 who show much better stats (and can actually fly an operational mission).

But it's "stealth"!! so all the tabloid could have headlines explaining how high tech it is, never mind it can carry a load of 2 tonnes on low signature mode and only to short ranges.

I remember back in the days of my military service how the US ed us over several times on all sort of procurement deals, the joys of being a proxy state.  
It's all worth it, because you will soon have Jared Kushner come over to provide you with hot takes on making peace!

But yeah, another thing we agree on.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 03, 2016, 09:41:56 AM
Channel 10 poll:
Likud - 24
YA - 24
JAL - 13
JH - 11
ZU - 10 (lol)
Liberman's crime family - 9
Meretz - 7
Shas -7
UTJ - 7
Kulanu - 7

Lapid could form a weird-narrow-unstable coalition with ZU JH Liberman and Kulano (61), Bennet would much rather brand himself as the leader of the right from within (and kill off Bibi) but his base would rather sit with Bibi (and Tkuma might breakaway in such scenario)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on December 03, 2016, 09:44:09 AM
You know what? That doesn't even sound too bad. I'd take it (although Lapid as PM, ehhhh... *throws up in mouth* can't we have Oren?). Not that it will ever happen.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: dead0man on December 03, 2016, 10:18:36 AM
In other news the US and our "special relationship" screw us yet again. The cabinet decided to purchase 17 more F-35 AKA piece of flying garbage and one of the biggest white elephants of military history instead of buying the new F-15 who show much better stats (and can actually fly an operational mission).

But it's "stealth"!! so all the tabloid could have headlines explaining how high tech it is, never mind it can carry a load of 2 tonnes on low signature mode and only to short ranges.

I remember back in the days of my military service how the US ed us over several times on all sort of procurement deals, the joys of being a proxy state. 
We're not exactly happy about the F35 over here either.  Eventually it will be a decent bird, but they shouldn't have forced one airframe to do three different things.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on December 03, 2016, 10:31:08 AM
In other news the US and our "special relationship" screw us yet again. The cabinet decided to purchase 17 more F-35 AKA piece of flying garbage and one of the biggest white elephants of military history instead of buying the new F-15 who show much better stats (and can actually fly an operational mission).

But it's "stealth"!! so all the tabloid could have headlines explaining how high tech it is, never mind it can carry a load of 2 tonnes on low signature mode and only to short ranges.

I remember back in the days of my military service how the US ed us over several times on all sort of procurement deals, the joys of being a proxy state. 
We're not exactly happy about the F35 over here either.  Eventually it will be a decent bird, but they shouldn't have forced one airframe to do three different things.
The complaints are the same in the Netherlands, by the way.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MaxQue on December 03, 2016, 12:32:28 PM
In other news the US and our "special relationship" screw us yet again. The cabinet decided to purchase 17 more F-35 AKA piece of flying garbage and one of the biggest white elephants of military history instead of buying the new F-15 who show much better stats (and can actually fly an operational mission).

But it's "stealth"!! so all the tabloid could have headlines explaining how high tech it is, never mind it can carry a load of 2 tonnes on low signature mode and only to short ranges.

I remember back in the days of my military service how the US ed us over several times on all sort of procurement deals, the joys of being a proxy state. 
We're not exactly happy about the F35 over here either.  Eventually it will be a decent bird, but they shouldn't have forced one airframe to do three different things.
The complaints are the same in the Netherlands, by the way.

In Canada, new government dropped the F35 orders and now wants to buy used SuperHornets, for some reason.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on December 06, 2016, 03:56:51 PM
Another story of sexual misconduct by a religious Bayit Yehudi MK is going to break. It's one of the six sitting religious MKs and if it were Bennet the story would have blown up already. It's also not Smotrich: in an interview he defended this anonymous person, which will soon not be anonymous anymore. That leaves four: Ben Dahan, Slomiansky, Yogev and Ariel. My bets are on Ariel, because it makes sense for Smotrich (also Tekuma) to defend him. In any case, this would be the second BY MK in two years, after Yinon Magal, to have engaged in sexual misconduct against women. Absurd.
Surely this is affecting their poll numbers?

No way. Most people who support BY will either not care, or say that the investigation is rigged against them, or complain about feminism. And the few people who will care, won't be swayed by it and will forget it once election day comes. The only thing of the sort that can have real effect is allegations against Bennet.

In other news, after the murder of a young girl at the Gay Parade in Jerusalem, in 2014, Bennet promised to increase funding for lgbt youth organizations. Now it was revealed that not only will he break his promise, he will actually decrease funding.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 07, 2016, 04:56:32 PM
There's a bundle of bills on the table: expropriation of west banks lands, new tax on owners of several flats, securing the orthodoxy's hold on the west wall, and the closing of the new public media corporation. Each coalition party wants one but not some of the others. We have a serious prisoner dilemma here...it will be interesting to see how this unfolds. 

Tel Aviv and it's ugly neighbor to the south Bat Yam are heading for a merger, this will have interesting demographic results (I suspect old Bat Yam residents will be priced out and the south Tel Aviv hipsters will find new hubs there). Tel Aviv declared goal is to bring all municipal authorities in the area under one jurisdiction, I am all for as it will force decentralization of power from Jerusalem. 

This is how the two voted in 2015:

Tel Aviv (263,205 voters):
ZU 34.27%
Likud 18.19%
Meretz 13.03%
YA 11.57%
Kulanu 6.88%
Shas 3.90%
JH 3.36%
JAL 3.25%
Liberman 2.08% (LOL)
Yachad  1.11%
UTJ 1.01%

Bat Yam (69,206 voters):
Likud 33.36%
ZU 14.58%
Liberman 12.88%
Kulano 11.23%
YA 9.30%
Shas 6.88%
JH 5.15%
Yachad 2.42%
Meretz 1.42%
UTJ 1.03%
JAL 0.18%

As you can see, very different cities


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on December 07, 2016, 05:02:48 PM
Wouldn't it endanger the left's hold on the mayorship of Tel Aviv, though, thus turning the last big bastion of the Israeli left to the right?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 07, 2016, 05:37:02 PM
Wouldn't it endanger the left's hold on the mayorship of Tel Aviv, though, thus turning the last big bastion of the Israeli left to the right?
Basically no, last two elections were of a Labour mayor against someone to his left (communist Hanin in 08 who got 30%, and Horowitz of Meretz in 13 who got 39%). If a merger happens Tel Aviv will just unite behind a single leftist


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on December 10, 2016, 09:39:11 AM
How is this in the interest of Bat Yam? Why don't they merge with more similar Holon instead?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 10, 2016, 12:16:17 PM
How is this in the interest of Bat Yam? Why don't they merge with more similar Holon instead?
Well they don't want it. But they are bankrupt and poorly ran so the government can just force it down. Bat Yam is closer to Tel Aviv and could benefit from their money. Holon isn't doing too great either, they only prospering there is Rishon and that because they had a huge land mass so they could attract lots of business to move there and pay let property tax than Tel Aviv.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on December 10, 2016, 12:44:23 PM
How is this in the interest of Bat Yam? Why don't they merge with more similar Holon instead?
Well they don't want it. But they are bankrupt and poorly ran so the government can just force it down. Bat Yam is closer to Tel Aviv and could benefit from their money. Holon isn't doing too great either, they only prospering there is Rishon and that because they had a huge land mass so they could attract lots of business to move there and pay let property tax than Tel Aviv.

Yeah. In any case, the municipal authorities in Israel are just absolutely corrupt and horribly ran, maybe with the exception of the big ones, Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, who are under more scrunity, and a few others (like Beer Sheva). Someone needs to shake this whole thing up.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 10, 2016, 02:44:35 PM
How is this in the interest of Bat Yam? Why don't they merge with more similar Holon instead?
Well they don't want it. But they are bankrupt and poorly ran so the government can just force it down. Bat Yam is closer to Tel Aviv and could benefit from their money. Holon isn't doing too great either, they only prospering there is Rishon and that because they had a huge land mass so they could attract lots of business to move there and pay let property tax than Tel Aviv.

Yeah. In any case, the municipal authorities in Israel are just absolutely corrupt and horribly ran, maybe with the exception of the big ones, Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, who are under more scrunity, and a few others (like Beer Sheva). Someone needs to shake this whole thing up.
Jerusalem is up there with the worst, it just gets load of money from the government so people don't notice how dysfunctional the city is (and its pretensions mayor).

Overall part for Tel Aviv, Haifa, Beer Sheva, and some of the Sharon cities they are all terribly ran\corrupt\in huge deficits.

I think an overall reform scrapping lots of municipal authorities and uniting them in larger ones with more autonomy will them all well (this must be augmented by a move to redistribute state lands between cities and smaller rural councils)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Jesus save us on December 10, 2016, 04:16:40 PM
I have created a Palestine general discussion thread.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on December 10, 2016, 04:38:47 PM
I think an overall reform scrapping lots of municipal authorities and uniting them in larger ones with more autonomy will them all well (this must be augmented by a move to redistribute state lands between cities and smaller rural councils)
If they're really almost all as corrupt as you say, wouldn't giving them more autonomy be the least sensible thing to do?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on December 10, 2016, 05:23:41 PM
How is this in the interest of Bat Yam? Why don't they merge with more similar Holon instead?
Well they don't want it. But they are bankrupt and poorly ran so the government can just force it down. Bat Yam is closer to Tel Aviv and could benefit from their money. Holon isn't doing too great either, they only prospering there is Rishon and that because they had a huge land mass so they could attract lots of business to move there and pay let property tax than Tel Aviv.

Yeah. In any case, the municipal authorities in Israel are just absolutely corrupt and horribly ran, maybe with the exception of the big ones, Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, who are under more scrunity, and a few others (like Beer Sheva). Someone needs to shake this whole thing up.
Jerusalem is up there with the worst, it just gets load of money from the government so people don't notice how dysfunctional the city is (and its pretensions mayor).

Overall part for Tel Aviv, Haifa, Beer Sheva, and some of the Sharon cities they are all terribly ran\corrupt\in huge deficits.

I think an overall reform scrapping lots of municipal authorities and uniting them in larger ones with more autonomy will them all well (this must be augmented by a move to redistribute state lands between cities and smaller rural councils)

But since this kind of reform would be almost impossible to do without broad bipartisan support and, more importantly, cooperation from municipal authorities, I think a few smaller steps to combat the corruption are needed. Namely, term limits for mayors (seriously, my city's mayor has been in office since 1976, and that's before the city became a city). Another measure could be scrapping local parties and returning to the tradition of major parties running their own candidates in municipal elections. I'm not basing it or any facts, but it seems to me like regional parties allow the mayors to have more control, appoint family members and friends etc, while major parties have interest in not being percieved as corrupt, thus adding a bit more scrunity.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 11, 2016, 10:53:23 AM
How is this in the interest of Bat Yam? Why don't they merge with more similar Holon instead?
Well they don't want it. But they are bankrupt and poorly ran so the government can just force it down. Bat Yam is closer to Tel Aviv and could benefit from their money. Holon isn't doing too great either, they only prospering there is Rishon and that because they had a huge land mass so they could attract lots of business to move there and pay let property tax than Tel Aviv.

Yeah. In any case, the municipal authorities in Israel are just absolutely corrupt and horribly ran, maybe with the exception of the big ones, Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, who are under more scrunity, and a few others (like Beer Sheva). Someone needs to shake this whole thing up.
Jerusalem is up there with the worst, it just gets load of money from the government so people don't notice how dysfunctional the city is (and its pretensions mayor).

Overall part for Tel Aviv, Haifa, Beer Sheva, and some of the Sharon cities they are all terribly ran\corrupt\in huge deficits.

I think an overall reform scrapping lots of municipal authorities and uniting them in larger ones with more autonomy will them all well (this must be augmented by a move to redistribute state lands between cities and smaller rural councils)

But since this kind of reform would be almost impossible to do without broad bipartisan support and, more importantly, cooperation from municipal authorities, I think a few smaller steps to combat the corruption are needed. Namely, term limits for mayors (seriously, my city's mayor has been in office since 1976, and that's before the city became a city). Another measure could be scrapping local parties and returning to the tradition of major parties running their own candidates in municipal elections. I'm not basing it or any facts, but it seems to me like regional parties allow the mayors to have more control, appoint family members and friends etc, while major parties have interest in not being percieved as corrupt, thus adding a bit more scrunity.
You can't scrap local parties it's against freedom of association plus a lot of people don't like national party lists running on municipal level (like it or not major parties are not a good brand on the local level). Tenure cap for mayors is a step in the right direction.

There is a bipartisan support at the national level for change but local dictators usually hold a lot of sway in Likud\Labour. This needs to come from the government by forcing their hands and refusing to pay their deficits


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on December 11, 2016, 11:18:20 AM
How is this in the interest of Bat Yam? Why don't they merge with more similar Holon instead?
Well they don't want it. But they are bankrupt and poorly ran so the government can just force it down. Bat Yam is closer to Tel Aviv and could benefit from their money. Holon isn't doing too great either, they only prospering there is Rishon and that because they had a huge land mass so they could attract lots of business to move there and pay let property tax than Tel Aviv.

Yeah. In any case, the municipal authorities in Israel are just absolutely corrupt and horribly ran, maybe with the exception of the big ones, Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, who are under more scrunity, and a few others (like Beer Sheva). Someone needs to shake this whole thing up.
Jerusalem is up there with the worst, it just gets load of money from the government so people don't notice how dysfunctional the city is (and its pretensions mayor).

Overall part for Tel Aviv, Haifa, Beer Sheva, and some of the Sharon cities they are all terribly ran\corrupt\in huge deficits.

I think an overall reform scrapping lots of municipal authorities and uniting them in larger ones with more autonomy will them all well (this must be augmented by a move to redistribute state lands between cities and smaller rural councils)

But since this kind of reform would be almost impossible to do without broad bipartisan support and, more importantly, cooperation from municipal authorities, I think a few smaller steps to combat the corruption are needed. Namely, term limits for mayors (seriously, my city's mayor has been in office since 1976, and that's before the city became a city). Another measure could be scrapping local parties and returning to the tradition of major parties running their own candidates in municipal elections. I'm not basing it or any facts, but it seems to me like regional parties allow the mayors to have more control, appoint family members and friends etc, while major parties have interest in not being percieved as corrupt, thus adding a bit more scrunity.
You can't scrap local parties it's against freedom of association plus a lot of people don't like national party lists running on municipal level (like it or not major parties are not a good brand on the local level). Tenure cap for mayors is a step in the right direction.

There is a bipartisan support at the national level for change but local dictators usually hold a lot of sway in Likud\Labour. This needs to come from the government by forcing their hands and refusing to pay their deficits

Hm, that's true, haven't thought of that. As I said, didn't base it on anything, it was an off thew cuff suggestion.
But yeah, tenure caps are definitely logical and needed, but as you said, it sadly won't happen because of the power of local bosses in the major parties. And like in many other issues, it comes back to the people again- people need to start joining these two parties and voting in their own interest to weaken the special interests, but sadly, it won't happen.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on December 11, 2016, 11:42:04 AM
Another story of sexual misconduct by a religious Bayit Yehudi MK is going to break. It's one of the six sitting religious MKs and if it were Bennet the story would have blown up already. It's also not Smotrich: in an interview he defended this anonymous person, which will soon not be anonymous anymore. That leaves four: Ben Dahan, Slomiansky, Yogev and Ariel. My bets are on Ariel, because it makes sense for Smotrich (also Tekuma) to defend him. In any case, this would be the second BY MK in two years, after Yinon Magal, to have engaged in sexual misconduct against women. Absurd.
Surely this is affecting their poll numbers?
No way. Most people who support BY will either not care, or say that the investigation is rigged against them, or complain about feminism. And the few people who will care, won't be swayed by it and will forget it once election day comes. The only thing of the sort that can have real effect is allegations against Bennet.
Come on dude, don't be a hack. It is indeed highly unlikely this will affect BY's polling numbers, but not because of any of this; it's because Slomiansky's behavior isn't seen as something political. Most BY voters would think he needs resign and that this behavior is disgusting, inappropriate and unacceptable, but they simply don't let it affect their view of the party.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on December 11, 2016, 05:40:22 PM
Another story of sexual misconduct by a religious Bayit Yehudi MK is going to break. It's one of the six sitting religious MKs and if it were Bennet the story would have blown up already. It's also not Smotrich: in an interview he defended this anonymous person, which will soon not be anonymous anymore. That leaves four: Ben Dahan, Slomiansky, Yogev and Ariel. My bets are on Ariel, because it makes sense for Smotrich (also Tekuma) to defend him. In any case, this would be the second BY MK in two years, after Yinon Magal, to have engaged in sexual misconduct against women. Absurd.
Surely this is affecting their poll numbers?
No way. Most people who support BY will either not care, or say that the investigation is rigged against them, or complain about feminism. And the few people who will care, won't be swayed by it and will forget it once election day comes. The only thing of the sort that can have real effect is allegations against Bennet.
Come on dude, don't be a hack. It is indeed highly unlikely this will affect BY's polling numbers, but not because of any of this; it's because Slomiansky's behavior isn't seen as something political. Most BY voters would think he needs resign and that this behavior is disgusting, inappropriate and unacceptable, but they simply don't let it affect their view of the party.

I agree that I'm often a hack when it comes to Israeli politics. I have a lot to say about the left wing, but the Israeli right has become just cynical and corrupted in recent years, which frustrated me.

But in this case, it was more from looking at recent events. Ofek Buchris, an IDF Brigadier General was accused of raping (in the end he admitted and was convicted of 'forbidden intercourse in consent'). This is disgusting and unacceptable by every measure, yet many (especially on the right, unfourtunately, and I'm not talking from a political point of view, just as an observer) defended him as a 'hero' and a 'patriot', claiming the allegations are false, that he was pressed into admitting, trashing the women, these kinds of things. And I'm not even quoting those from the media, but from personal discussions with people. The BY, being an extreme party, has more loyal and zealous fans, so I'm entirely expecting a backlash if these allegations spark a discussion about the party as a whole.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: I’m not Stu on December 17, 2016, 05:27:34 PM
How are Likud and Kulanu different on Zionism and other issues?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on December 17, 2016, 07:57:58 PM
How are Likud and Kulanu different on Zionism and other issues?

Both are very Zionist, maybe Kulanu is more pro-Two state solution but Likud cares more about security issues, foreign policy issues etc... then Kulanu. Kulanu's zionism reminds me of Yesh Atid's zionism...bland patriotism, pro-zionist but not on Likud's level.

Kulanu was founded as economic and social issues party. Yoav Galant and Michael Oren are the two foreign policy gurus on the list but, of course, Moshe Kahlon is the party leader and he's famous for lowering rates in the telecom industry.

Kulanu seems more moderate/secular on social issues.



Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on December 17, 2016, 07:59:35 PM
@DavidB
@ParrotGuy

Also, sexual assault allegations don't seem to hurt political parties as a whole in Israel. I think Bennett's incompetence on Amona is what will hurt The Jewish Home.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on December 17, 2016, 08:41:58 PM
How are Likud and Kulanu different on Zionism and other issues?

Both are very Zionist, maybe Kulanu is more pro-Two state solution but Likud cares more about security issues, foreign policy issues etc... then Kulanu. Kulanu's zionism reminds me of Yesh Atid's zionism...bland patriotism, pro-zionist but not on Likud's level.

Kulanu was founded as economic and social issues party. Yoav Galant and Michael Oren are the two foreign policy gurus on the list but, of course, Moshe Kahlon is the party leader and he's famous for lowering rates in the telecom industry.

Kulanu seems more moderate/secular on social issues.



Hypothetically, Kulanu might join a Labor led coalition. HYPOTHETICALLY. That makes them less Zionist. Or less nationalist at least.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: I’m not Stu on December 18, 2016, 01:15:55 AM
I prefer the more moderate Kulanu. I'm a moderate conservative.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on December 18, 2016, 05:15:57 AM
How are Likud and Kulanu different on Zionism and other issues?

Both are very Zionist, maybe Kulanu is more pro-Two state solution but Likud cares more about security issues, foreign policy issues etc... then Kulanu. Kulanu's zionism reminds me of Yesh Atid's zionism...bland patriotism, pro-zionist but not on Likud's level.

Kulanu was founded as economic and social issues party. Yoav Galant and Michael Oren are the two foreign policy gurus on the list but, of course, Moshe Kahlon is the party leader and he's famous for lowering rates in the telecom industry.

Kulanu seems more moderate/secular on social issues.


Hypothetically, Kulanu might join a Labor led coalition. HYPOTHETICALLY. That makes them less Zionist. Or less nationalist at least.

Sorry, but that's completely untrue. There is a huge difference between right wing ideology and Zionism.
Zionism is the belief in a Jewish state- the Likud is not more zionist than the Labour, Kulanu, Yesh Atid or Merez. All are zionist, just with a different ideology. Yes, the Likud became a more extreme right wing party, while Kulanu is more moderate. But it's not related in any way.
Actually, the main argument for a two-state solution is that if we annex the West Bank, we will have millions of new Arabic citizens, and the Jewish majority in Israel will be in a grave danger. Imo, the two states solution is an idea that defends zionism better than "we must take all the land".


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 18, 2016, 07:06:36 AM
How are Likud and Kulanu different on Zionism and other issues?
That's not a good way to understand party lines in Israel all parties part for the orthodox and the Arabs are zionists parties (and the Haredi are de facto Zionist).

Kulano is soft Likud on almost everything, what ever position Likud takes Kulano will be an inch to the left.

Individual MKs vary quite substantively there. Azaria would sit comfortably in Labour, Polkman could fit in YA (very economic liberal), Oren is a likudnik through and through, Galant is a bland ex general, and all the rest can't be classed as similar as well. Yet as a party they're fairly consistent


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on December 18, 2016, 07:58:12 AM
How are Likud and Kulanu different on Zionism and other issues?
That's not a good way to understand party lines in Israel all parties part for the orthodox and the Arabs are zionists parties (and the Haredi are de facto Zionist).

Kulano is soft Likud on almost everything, what ever position Likud takes Kulano will be an inch to the left.

Individual MKs vary quite substantively there. Azaria would sit comfortably in Labour, Polkman could fit in YA (very economic liberal), Oren is a likudnik through and through, Galant is a bland ex general, and all the rest can't be classed as similar as well. Yet as a party they're fairly consistent

Yeah, basically the centrist parties are MKs from different parts of the political spectrum recruited by a popular central figure.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 19, 2016, 06:04:59 AM
Amir Peretz announced he is running for Labour leadership (for the fourth time) this June. Other possible contenders as Margarit, Shelly, and Bar Lev were so far silent


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on December 19, 2016, 07:58:37 AM
Amir Peretz announced he is running for Labour leadership (for the fourth time) this June. Other possible contenders as Margarit, Shelly, and Bar Lev were so far silent

As a Labour member, not voting for him. Currently leaning towards Margalit, even if for pure change of attitude. Perez had many chances already, and Herzog is absolutely horrible.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 25, 2016, 11:01:41 AM
Amazing as Netanyahu received his biggest policy blow (even bigger than the Iran deal) and Labour can't even capitalize on that. I'm surprised Labour MKs aren't in full revolt already, this behavior is perplexing


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on December 25, 2016, 11:13:29 AM
Amazing as Netanyahu received his biggest policy blow (even bigger than the Iran deal) and Labour can't even capitalize on that. I'm surprised Labour MKs aren't in full revolt already, this behavior is perplexing

Herzog is a total mess as an opposition leader, gib primaries pls. Some Labour MKs are reacting well, like Shapir and Michaeli, but they can't really act on it like Herzog. Not even talking about Lapid.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 25, 2016, 11:22:20 AM
Amazing as Netanyahu received his biggest policy blow (even bigger than the Iran deal) and Labour can't even capitalize on that. I'm surprised Labour MKs aren't in full revolt already, this behavior is perplexing

Herzog is a total mess as an opposition leader, gib primaries pls. Some Labour MKs are reacting well, like Shapir and Michaeli, but they can't really act on it like Herzog. Not even talking about Lapid.
I was referring to acting against Herzog, this lull is unlikely to Labour party nature.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on December 28, 2016, 01:47:08 PM
Netanyahu's legal problems appear to be getting worse and worse. Elections soon?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 29, 2016, 03:48:32 AM
Avi Gabai, former minister from Kulanu joins Labour. He has a pretty good public image after dueling it out with Bibi over the 'gas deal' and his last week channel 2 interview. But still too inexperienced to challenge the leadership.

In his statement he also took a shot at Kachlon and Lapid questioning the legitimacy of a chairman omnipotence partiesץ

Oren and Galant looked like they were planning for their primaries in Likud this week.  


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on December 29, 2016, 05:15:31 AM
Wasn't Ya'alon supposed to form a party by now?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on December 29, 2016, 05:21:39 AM
Wasn't Ya'alon supposed to form a party by now?

It's not a sure thing. Also, there's no election coming... Yet.

As for Avi Gabai, I like him. Will probably vote for him in the primaries for the slate of candidates.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 29, 2016, 06:37:50 AM
Wasn't Ya'alon supposed to form a party by now?
A. no elections in near sight
B. no funding.
C. quite a dreary character, he would not go for such a move by himself.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on December 29, 2016, 08:33:48 AM
2016 was a bad year but at least the kid torturer left through the backdoor.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 30, 2016, 01:44:56 PM
Poll from tonight (grain of salt)
YA 27
Likud 23
JH 12
JAL 12
Lieberman 10
ZU 8 (LOL)
Shas 8
Kachlon 7
UTJ 7
Meretz 6


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on December 30, 2016, 01:48:01 PM
Poll from tonight (grain of salt)
YA 27
Likud 23
JH 12
JAL 12
Lieberman 10
ZU 8 (LOL)
Shas 8
Kachlon 7
UTJ 7
Meretz 6

Omg


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on December 30, 2016, 02:44:40 PM
Poll from tonight (grain of salt)
YA 27
Likud 23
JH 12
JAL 12
Lieberman 10
ZU 8 (LOL)
Shas 8
Kachlon 7
UTJ 7
Meretz 6
Coalition at 67, exactly what they got in the 2015 election.

Main voter movement on the "center/left" is obviously ZU -> YA, on the right it's Likud -> JH (including many people who were JH supporters in the first place but cast a tactical Likud vote in 2015) and Likud -> YB (perhaps also a similar effect as with JH, with Russians who voted Likud in 2015 for partly tactical reasons + the last-minute anti-Arab stuff now going back to YB).

Main surprise for me is that Kahlon hasn't completely collapsed yet. Shas is also doing remarkably well.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: windjammer on December 30, 2016, 06:13:49 PM
Is it possible that the guy from Jewish Home becomes PM?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on December 30, 2016, 08:12:54 PM
Is it possible that the guy from Jewish Home becomes PM?
Nah, either Netanyahu or the next Likud leader will be PM.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 01, 2017, 12:01:14 PM
Bibi is suspected of receiving inappropriate "gift" from multi-millionaire donors. A second corruption charge (and one of greater weight if the rumours be taken at face value) is about to be revealed soon. An indictment means he has to resign.

Can you smell it? it's election time


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 01, 2017, 01:50:46 PM
According to Knessetjeremy (https://knessetjeremy.com/2016/12/31/channel-10-poll-yesh-atid-27-likud-23-bayit-yehudi-12-joint-list-12-yisrael-beitenu-10/?fb_action_ids=10154895934874084&fb_action_types=news.publishes):

Quote
1) If Netanyahu is forced to resign that would not trigger new elections. It is very possible that a Likud Minister (Erdan, Katz, etc) takes over and the current coalition stays in place. It is the Knesset that needs to vote for an early election. The government just passed a biannual budget through the end of 2018.
2) There is no logical coalition for Lapid to reach 61 in this poll. It would require a number of unnatural alliances. It is always possible to create unnatural alliances, but it is not as likely as the natural partners sticking together. It is a 3-phase process for electing a Prime Minister and winning the first phase is not enough. It is possible, but I don’t see Deri, Bennett or Liberman choosing Lapid over Netanyahu in Phase 2.
3) As Yehoshua pointed out on Twitter, this poll repeats the 67-53 result from the previous election. All of the movement is within the two blocs. Lapid gains 16 seats at the expense of the Zionist Union losing 16 seats. So the real question in the poll is – did Lapid win these seats or did Herzog lose them? Based on the PM follow-up question, I lean towards believing that Herzog lost them.
4) It is possible that after the Labor Party Leadership Primary in the summer that a different candidate replaces Herzog. That could change the gap between the two major players in the opposition. It looks like both Ashkenazi and Gantz will sit out and miss the deadline. With no clear favorite I predict that there will be a lot of candidates and that it will require a second round of primary voting. Based on previous Labor Party Primaries it is difficult to predict the winner of a 2-round system until after the 1st round is completed.
I agree with points 2 and 3 (though 3 is hardly relevant) and don't know enough to say anything about 4. But 1 is important: a new Likud leader could theoretically simply replace Bibi is he's indicted. Why would that not happen, hnv1? None of the coalition parties seem truly eager to trigger a snap election (though that may change if Bibi has to go, obviously, but that would be a gamble!). And who do you think would be most likely to replace Bibi?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Mike88 on January 01, 2017, 02:09:18 PM
Will a hypothetical new Likud leader and PM ease the current tension between USA-Israel-UN or will it suffer no change?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 01, 2017, 03:28:15 PM
Will a hypothetical new Likud leader and PM ease the current tension between USA-Israel-UN or will it suffer no change?
The new U.S. president will.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Mike88 on January 01, 2017, 03:40:47 PM
Will a hypothetical new Likud leader and PM ease the current tension between USA-Israel-UN or will it suffer no change?
The new U.S. president will.
Yeah of course.... Clearly i wrote the question the wrong way. Sorry, my bad. What i was asking is if a new PM will change, or not, the current policy line of two people/two states and if Likud has any wing agaisnt this policy and in favour on a one state solution.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 01, 2017, 03:51:22 PM
According to Knessetjeremy (https://knessetjeremy.com/2016/12/31/channel-10-poll-yesh-atid-27-likud-23-bayit-yehudi-12-joint-list-12-yisrael-beitenu-10/?fb_action_ids=10154895934874084&fb_action_types=news.publishes):

Quote
1) If Netanyahu is forced to resign that would not trigger new elections. It is very possible that a Likud Minister (Erdan, Katz, etc) takes over and the current coalition stays in place. It is the Knesset that needs to vote for an early election. The government just passed a biannual budget through the end of 2018.
2) There is no logical coalition for Lapid to reach 61 in this poll. It would require a number of unnatural alliances. It is always possible to create unnatural alliances, but it is not as likely as the natural partners sticking together. It is a 3-phase process for electing a Prime Minister and winning the first phase is not enough. It is possible, but I don’t see Deri, Bennett or Liberman choosing Lapid over Netanyahu in Phase 2.
3) As Yehoshua pointed out on Twitter, this poll repeats the 67-53 result from the previous election. All of the movement is within the two blocs. Lapid gains 16 seats at the expense of the Zionist Union losing 16 seats. So the real question in the poll is – did Lapid win these seats or did Herzog lose them? Based on the PM follow-up question, I lean towards believing that Herzog lost them.
4) It is possible that after the Labor Party Leadership Primary in the summer that a different candidate replaces Herzog. That could change the gap between the two major players in the opposition. It looks like both Ashkenazi and Gantz will sit out and miss the deadline. With no clear favorite I predict that there will be a lot of candidates and that it will require a second round of primary voting. Based on previous Labor Party Primaries it is difficult to predict the winner of a 2-round system until after the 1st round is completed.
I agree with points 2 and 3 (though 3 is hardly relevant) and don't know enough to say anything about 4. But 1 is important: a new Likud leader could theoretically simply replace Bibi is he's indicted. Why would that not happen, hnv1? None of the coalition parties seem truly eager to trigger a snap election (though that may change if Bibi has to go, obviously, but that would be a gamble!). And who do you think would be most likely to replace Bibi?
As to 1 if the indictment is coming bibi will call for election before it is served, that's the whole point to deter them from serving it (as serving it during an election cycle is implausible). He can just fire all ministers and lose a confidence vote, it is unlikely anyone else could form a government (though in some scenario that will happen only to have him kicked out of the arena) and non of the Likud big players would like to be conceived as undermining him.

Likud primaries are a shifty affair, and bibi worked hard to kill off any possible competition. Katz and Arden are popular but not leadership material. I guess Saar will have a comeback and win it (only to lose the election). But Saar has his own pandora box...

I don't Knesset Jeremy, but the likelihood of Bennet, Lieberman and Kachlon taking orders from Katz or Erden is slim as I see it


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 01, 2017, 03:55:10 PM
Will a hypothetical new Likud leader and PM ease the current tension between USA-Israel-UN or will it suffer no change?
The new U.S. president will.
Yeah of course.... Clearly i wrote the question the wrong way. Sorry, my bad. What i was asking is if a new PM will change, or not, the current policy line of two people/two states and if Likud has any wing agaisnt this policy and in favour on a one state solution.
Why would they do that? Non of them believes in 2SS but they all know it's a diplomatic asset.
Only Elkin and Levine are careless enough to do so.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 01, 2017, 04:00:58 PM
According to Knessetjeremy (https://knessetjeremy.com/2016/12/31/channel-10-poll-yesh-atid-27-likud-23-bayit-yehudi-12-joint-list-12-yisrael-beitenu-10/?fb_action_ids=10154895934874084&fb_action_types=news.publishes):

Quote
1) If Netanyahu is forced to resign that would not trigger new elections. It is very possible that a Likud Minister (Erdan, Katz, etc) takes over and the current coalition stays in place. It is the Knesset that needs to vote for an early election. The government just passed a biannual budget through the end of 2018.
2) There is no logical coalition for Lapid to reach 61 in this poll. It would require a number of unnatural alliances. It is always possible to create unnatural alliances, but it is not as likely as the natural partners sticking together. It is a 3-phase process for electing a Prime Minister and winning the first phase is not enough. It is possible, but I don’t see Deri, Bennett or Liberman choosing Lapid over Netanyahu in Phase 2.
3) As Yehoshua pointed out on Twitter, this poll repeats the 67-53 result from the previous election. All of the movement is within the two blocs. Lapid gains 16 seats at the expense of the Zionist Union losing 16 seats. So the real question in the poll is – did Lapid win these seats or did Herzog lose them? Based on the PM follow-up question, I lean towards believing that Herzog lost them.
4) It is possible that after the Labor Party Leadership Primary in the summer that a different candidate replaces Herzog. That could change the gap between the two major players in the opposition. It looks like both Ashkenazi and Gantz will sit out and miss the deadline. With no clear favorite I predict that there will be a lot of candidates and that it will require a second round of primary voting. Based on previous Labor Party Primaries it is difficult to predict the winner of a 2-round system until after the 1st round is completed.
I agree with points 2 and 3 (though 3 is hardly relevant) and don't know enough to say anything about 4. But 1 is important: a new Likud leader could theoretically simply replace Bibi is he's indicted. Why would that not happen, hnv1? None of the coalition parties seem truly eager to trigger a snap election (though that may change if Bibi has to go, obviously, but that would be a gamble!). And who do you think would be most likely to replace Bibi?
As to 1 if the indictment is coming bibi will call for election before it is served, that's the whole point to deter them from serving it (as serving it during an election cycle is implausible). He can just fire all ministers and lose a confidence vote, it is unlikely anyone else could form a government (though in some scenario that will happen only to have him kicked out of the arena) and non of the Likud big players would like to be conceived as undermining him.

Likud primaries are a shifty affair, and bibi worked hard to kill off any possible competition. Katz and Arden are popular but not leadership material. I guess Saar will have a comeback and win it (only to lose the election). But Saar has his own pandora box...

I don't Knesset Jeremy, but the likelihood of Bennet, Lieberman and Kachlon taking orders from Katz or Erden is slim as I see it

So if Saar loses the elections, what do you think will happen? Clearly, the left can't win right now.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 01, 2017, 04:04:43 PM
According to Knessetjeremy (https://knessetjeremy.com/2016/12/31/channel-10-poll-yesh-atid-27-likud-23-bayit-yehudi-12-joint-list-12-yisrael-beitenu-10/?fb_action_ids=10154895934874084&fb_action_types=news.publishes):

Quote
1) If Netanyahu is forced to resign that would not trigger new elections. It is very possible that a Likud Minister (Erdan, Katz, etc) takes over and the current coalition stays in place. It is the Knesset that needs to vote for an early election. The government just passed a biannual budget through the end of 2018.
2) There is no logical coalition for Lapid to reach 61 in this poll. It would require a number of unnatural alliances. It is always possible to create unnatural alliances, but it is not as likely as the natural partners sticking together. It is a 3-phase process for electing a Prime Minister and winning the first phase is not enough. It is possible, but I don’t see Deri, Bennett or Liberman choosing Lapid over Netanyahu in Phase 2.
3) As Yehoshua pointed out on Twitter, this poll repeats the 67-53 result from the previous election. All of the movement is within the two blocs. Lapid gains 16 seats at the expense of the Zionist Union losing 16 seats. So the real question in the poll is – did Lapid win these seats or did Herzog lose them? Based on the PM follow-up question, I lean towards believing that Herzog lost them.
4) It is possible that after the Labor Party Leadership Primary in the summer that a different candidate replaces Herzog. That could change the gap between the two major players in the opposition. It looks like both Ashkenazi and Gantz will sit out and miss the deadline. With no clear favorite I predict that there will be a lot of candidates and that it will require a second round of primary voting. Based on previous Labor Party Primaries it is difficult to predict the winner of a 2-round system until after the 1st round is completed.
I agree with points 2 and 3 (though 3 is hardly relevant) and don't know enough to say anything about 4. But 1 is important: a new Likud leader could theoretically simply replace Bibi is he's indicted. Why would that not happen, hnv1? None of the coalition parties seem truly eager to trigger a snap election (though that may change if Bibi has to go, obviously, but that would be a gamble!). And who do you think would be most likely to replace Bibi?
As to 1 if the indictment is coming bibi will call for election before it is served, that's the whole point to deter them from serving it (as serving it during an election cycle is implausible). He can just fire all ministers and lose a confidence vote, it is unlikely anyone else could form a government (though in some scenario that will happen only to have him kicked out of the arena) and non of the Likud big players would like to be conceived as undermining him.

Likud primaries are a shifty affair, and bibi worked hard to kill off any possible competition. Katz and Arden are popular but not leadership material. I guess Saar will have a comeback and win it (only to lose the election). But Saar has his own pandora box...

I don't Knesset Jeremy, but the likelihood of Bennet, Lieberman and Kachlon taking orders from Katz or Erden is slim as I see it

So if Saar loses the elections, what do you think will happen? Clearly, the left can't win right now.
Ragtag coalition led by Lapid including Liberman, Bennet, Kachlon, and Labour\Likud. won't last for 2 years.
But it is very hypothetical as if Bibi is out there will be changes across the spectrum with new players in and new constellations formed (Labour won't put Herzog against Saar). It is plausible we'll see the same scenario mentioned earlier only with a party led by Boogie\Ashkenazi\Kachlon in charge (though Ganz will likely head to Labour so you never know).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 01, 2017, 05:42:32 PM
According to Knessetjeremy (https://knessetjeremy.com/2016/12/31/channel-10-poll-yesh-atid-27-likud-23-bayit-yehudi-12-joint-list-12-yisrael-beitenu-10/?fb_action_ids=10154895934874084&fb_action_types=news.publishes):

Quote
1) If Netanyahu is forced to resign that would not trigger new elections. It is very possible that a Likud Minister (Erdan, Katz, etc) takes over and the current coalition stays in place. It is the Knesset that needs to vote for an early election. The government just passed a biannual budget through the end of 2018.
2) There is no logical coalition for Lapid to reach 61 in this poll. It would require a number of unnatural alliances. It is always possible to create unnatural alliances, but it is not as likely as the natural partners sticking together. It is a 3-phase process for electing a Prime Minister and winning the first phase is not enough. It is possible, but I don’t see Deri, Bennett or Liberman choosing Lapid over Netanyahu in Phase 2.
3) As Yehoshua pointed out on Twitter, this poll repeats the 67-53 result from the previous election. All of the movement is within the two blocs. Lapid gains 16 seats at the expense of the Zionist Union losing 16 seats. So the real question in the poll is – did Lapid win these seats or did Herzog lose them? Based on the PM follow-up question, I lean towards believing that Herzog lost them.
4) It is possible that after the Labor Party Leadership Primary in the summer that a different candidate replaces Herzog. That could change the gap between the two major players in the opposition. It looks like both Ashkenazi and Gantz will sit out and miss the deadline. With no clear favorite I predict that there will be a lot of candidates and that it will require a second round of primary voting. Based on previous Labor Party Primaries it is difficult to predict the winner of a 2-round system until after the 1st round is completed.
I agree with points 2 and 3 (though 3 is hardly relevant) and don't know enough to say anything about 4. But 1 is important: a new Likud leader could theoretically simply replace Bibi is he's indicted. Why would that not happen, hnv1? None of the coalition parties seem truly eager to trigger a snap election (though that may change if Bibi has to go, obviously, but that would be a gamble!). And who do you think would be most likely to replace Bibi?
As to 1 if the indictment is coming bibi will call for election before it is served, that's the whole point to deter them from serving it (as serving it during an election cycle is implausible). He can just fire all ministers and lose a confidence vote, it is unlikely anyone else could form a government (though in some scenario that will happen only to have him kicked out of the arena) and non of the Likud big players would like to be conceived as undermining him.

Likud primaries are a shifty affair, and bibi worked hard to kill off any possible competition. Katz and Arden are popular but not leadership material. I guess Saar will have a comeback and win it (only to lose the election). But Saar has his own pandora box...

I don't Knesset Jeremy, but the likelihood of Bennet, Lieberman and Kachlon taking orders from Katz or Erden is slim as I see it

So if Saar loses the elections, what do you think will happen? Clearly, the left can't win right now.
Ragtag coalition led by Lapid including Liberman, Bennet, Kachlon, and Labour\Likud. won't last for 2 years.
But it is very hypothetical as if Bibi is out there will be changes across the spectrum with new players in and new constellations formed (Labour won't put Herzog against Saar). It is plausible we'll see the same scenario mentioned earlier only with a party led by Boogie\Ashkenazi\Kachlon in charge (though Ganz will likely head to Labour so you never know).

I have a very hard time seeing Labour sitting with Bennett, and Lapid creating a purely right wing coalition seems like a bad move. Perhaps there is an outside chance for Lapid leading a government with Kahlon, Lieberman, Labour (presumably hovering at 10-13 seats in this scenario) and Likud?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: windjammer on January 01, 2017, 06:15:06 PM
According to Knessetjeremy (https://knessetjeremy.com/2016/12/31/channel-10-poll-yesh-atid-27-likud-23-bayit-yehudi-12-joint-list-12-yisrael-beitenu-10/?fb_action_ids=10154895934874084&fb_action_types=news.publishes):

Quote
1) If Netanyahu is forced to resign that would not trigger new elections. It is very possible that a Likud Minister (Erdan, Katz, etc) takes over and the current coalition stays in place. It is the Knesset that needs to vote for an early election. The government just passed a biannual budget through the end of 2018.
2) There is no logical coalition for Lapid to reach 61 in this poll. It would require a number of unnatural alliances. It is always possible to create unnatural alliances, but it is not as likely as the natural partners sticking together. It is a 3-phase process for electing a Prime Minister and winning the first phase is not enough. It is possible, but I don’t see Deri, Bennett or Liberman choosing Lapid over Netanyahu in Phase 2.
3) As Yehoshua pointed out on Twitter, this poll repeats the 67-53 result from the previous election. All of the movement is within the two blocs. Lapid gains 16 seats at the expense of the Zionist Union losing 16 seats. So the real question in the poll is – did Lapid win these seats or did Herzog lose them? Based on the PM follow-up question, I lean towards believing that Herzog lost them.
4) It is possible that after the Labor Party Leadership Primary in the summer that a different candidate replaces Herzog. That could change the gap between the two major players in the opposition. It looks like both Ashkenazi and Gantz will sit out and miss the deadline. With no clear favorite I predict that there will be a lot of candidates and that it will require a second round of primary voting. Based on previous Labor Party Primaries it is difficult to predict the winner of a 2-round system until after the 1st round is completed.
I agree with points 2 and 3 (though 3 is hardly relevant) and don't know enough to say anything about 4. But 1 is important: a new Likud leader could theoretically simply replace Bibi is he's indicted. Why would that not happen, hnv1? None of the coalition parties seem truly eager to trigger a snap election (though that may change if Bibi has to go, obviously, but that would be a gamble!). And who do you think would be most likely to replace Bibi?
David I don't understand,
The other rightwing parties are rising in the polls except Kulanu, new elections would likely reinforce their position especially with a Likud scandal, so I guess strategically speaking it would make sense to force new elections.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 01, 2017, 11:32:09 PM
According to Knessetjeremy (https://knessetjeremy.com/2016/12/31/channel-10-poll-yesh-atid-27-likud-23-bayit-yehudi-12-joint-list-12-yisrael-beitenu-10/?fb_action_ids=10154895934874084&fb_action_types=news.publishes):

Quote
1) If Netanyahu is forced to resign that would not trigger new elections. It is very possible that a Likud Minister (Erdan, Katz, etc) takes over and the current coalition stays in place. It is the Knesset that needs to vote for an early election. The government just passed a biannual budget through the end of 2018.
2) There is no logical coalition for Lapid to reach 61 in this poll. It would require a number of unnatural alliances. It is always possible to create unnatural alliances, but it is not as likely as the natural partners sticking together. It is a 3-phase process for electing a Prime Minister and winning the first phase is not enough. It is possible, but I don’t see Deri, Bennett or Liberman choosing Lapid over Netanyahu in Phase 2.
3) As Yehoshua pointed out on Twitter, this poll repeats the 67-53 result from the previous election. All of the movement is within the two blocs. Lapid gains 16 seats at the expense of the Zionist Union losing 16 seats. So the real question in the poll is – did Lapid win these seats or did Herzog lose them? Based on the PM follow-up question, I lean towards believing that Herzog lost them.
4) It is possible that after the Labor Party Leadership Primary in the summer that a different candidate replaces Herzog. That could change the gap between the two major players in the opposition. It looks like both Ashkenazi and Gantz will sit out and miss the deadline. With no clear favorite I predict that there will be a lot of candidates and that it will require a second round of primary voting. Based on previous Labor Party Primaries it is difficult to predict the winner of a 2-round system until after the 1st round is completed.
I agree with points 2 and 3 (though 3 is hardly relevant) and don't know enough to say anything about 4. But 1 is important: a new Likud leader could theoretically simply replace Bibi is he's indicted. Why would that not happen, hnv1? None of the coalition parties seem truly eager to trigger a snap election (though that may change if Bibi has to go, obviously, but that would be a gamble!). And who do you think would be most likely to replace Bibi?
David I don't understand,
The other rightwing parties are rising in the polls except Kulanu, new elections would likely reinforce their position especially with a Likud scandal, so I guess strategically speaking it would make sense to force new elections.

Yes, but does Lieberman have anywhere higher to go other than Minister of Defense? And can the Haredim risk Lapid becoming PM? Even Bennett might find it too risky, and Kahlon would very likely lose seats.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 01, 2017, 11:37:06 PM
According to Knessetjeremy (https://knessetjeremy.com/2016/12/31/channel-10-poll-yesh-atid-27-likud-23-bayit-yehudi-12-joint-list-12-yisrael-beitenu-10/?fb_action_ids=10154895934874084&fb_action_types=news.publishes):

Quote
1) If Netanyahu is forced to resign that would not trigger new elections. It is very possible that a Likud Minister (Erdan, Katz, etc) takes over and the current coalition stays in place. It is the Knesset that needs to vote for an early election. The government just passed a biannual budget through the end of 2018.
2) There is no logical coalition for Lapid to reach 61 in this poll. It would require a number of unnatural alliances. It is always possible to create unnatural alliances, but it is not as likely as the natural partners sticking together. It is a 3-phase process for electing a Prime Minister and winning the first phase is not enough. It is possible, but I don’t see Deri, Bennett or Liberman choosing Lapid over Netanyahu in Phase 2.
3) As Yehoshua pointed out on Twitter, this poll repeats the 67-53 result from the previous election. All of the movement is within the two blocs. Lapid gains 16 seats at the expense of the Zionist Union losing 16 seats. So the real question in the poll is – did Lapid win these seats or did Herzog lose them? Based on the PM follow-up question, I lean towards believing that Herzog lost them.
4) It is possible that after the Labor Party Leadership Primary in the summer that a different candidate replaces Herzog. That could change the gap between the two major players in the opposition. It looks like both Ashkenazi and Gantz will sit out and miss the deadline. With no clear favorite I predict that there will be a lot of candidates and that it will require a second round of primary voting. Based on previous Labor Party Primaries it is difficult to predict the winner of a 2-round system until after the 1st round is completed.
I agree with points 2 and 3 (though 3 is hardly relevant) and don't know enough to say anything about 4. But 1 is important: a new Likud leader could theoretically simply replace Bibi is he's indicted. Why would that not happen, hnv1? None of the coalition parties seem truly eager to trigger a snap election (though that may change if Bibi has to go, obviously, but that would be a gamble!). And who do you think would be most likely to replace Bibi?
David I don't understand,
The other rightwing parties are rising in the polls except Kulanu, new elections would likely reinforce their position especially with a Likud scandal, so I guess strategically speaking it would make sense to force new elections.

Yes, but does Lieberman have anywhere higher to go other than Minister of Defense? And can the Haredim risk Lapod becoming PM? Even Bennett might find it too risky, and Kahlon would very likely lose seats.
This. Kahlon may lose seats, and Bennett and Lieberman wouldn't gain enough to make it worth the gamble. The improvement in terms of policy and cabinet positions would be really marginal, if any.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on January 02, 2017, 04:00:11 PM
Poll from tonight (grain of salt)
YA 27
Likud 23
JH 12
JAL 12
Lieberman 10
ZU 8 (LOL)
Shas 8
Kachlon 7
UTJ 7
Meretz 6

Labor has polled this badly before but they always end up coming winning some number in the teens when the actual election happens. They usually get a bounce after their leadership election. Yesh Atid, of course, will have no such election and no such bounce.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 02, 2017, 04:10:16 PM
Poll from tonight (grain of salt)
YA 27
Likud 23
JH 12
JAL 12
Lieberman 10
ZU 8 (LOL)
Shas 8
Kachlon 7
UTJ 7
Meretz 6

Labor has polled this badly before but they always end up coming winning some number in the teens when the actual election happens. They usually get a bounce after their leadership election. Yesh Atid, of course, will have no such election and no such bounce.
Calling for a snap election will actually have a strategic wit to it. It will force Labour to go in with Herzog at the top what will actually end in single digits (and longterm massive damage)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 02, 2017, 04:12:04 PM
Poll from tonight (grain of salt)
YA 27
Likud 23
JH 12
JAL 12
Lieberman 10
ZU 8 (LOL)
Shas 8
Kachlon 7
UTJ 7
Meretz 6

Labor has polled this badly before but they always end up coming winning some number in the teens when the actual election happens. They usually get a bounce after their leadership election. Yesh Atid, of course, will have no such election and no such bounce.
Calling for a snap election will actually have a strategic wit to it. It will force Labour to go in with Herzog at the top what will actually end in single digits (and longterm massive damage)

What? No primaries for leadership and list before? Seems very odd. There were primaries before all the previous ones.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on January 03, 2017, 04:59:46 AM
What's the hack where I can get Haaretz articles for free?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 03, 2017, 05:44:25 AM
Poll from tonight (grain of salt)
YA 27
Likud 23
JH 12
JAL 12
Lieberman 10
ZU 8 (LOL)
Shas 8
Kachlon 7
UTJ 7
Meretz 6

Labor has polled this badly before but they always end up coming winning some number in the teens when the actual election happens. They usually get a bounce after their leadership election. Yesh Atid, of course, will have no such election and no such bounce.
Calling for a snap election will actually have a strategic wit to it. It will force Labour to go in with Herzog at the top what will actually end in single digits (and longterm massive damage)

What? No primaries for leadership and list before? Seems very odd. There were primaries before all the previous ones
If it's really soon I can't see them having both at the same time. Meretz did but Galon ran unopposed anyway.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on January 06, 2017, 10:30:45 AM
Given the silence here, I have to ask, has the BBC been overhyping how significant the Elor Azaria case has been in Israel, or are our ardent defenders of Zionism here humane enuf to not defend a homicidal medic, or are both factors the case here? I think both are likely true, but I could be wrong.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 06, 2017, 10:42:44 AM
Given the silence here, I have to ask, has the BBC been overhyping how significant the Elor Azaria case has been in Israel, or are our ardent defenders of Zionism here humane enuf to not defend a homicidal medic, or are both factors the case here? I think both are likely true, but I could be wrong.
It's a pretty big deal not because a single soldier is going to jail for disobeying orders and executing a defeated enemy, but because it's a symbol of what's happening to the Israeli right- a whole politocal spectrum, driven by the wish of every politician to show himself as more right wing than the others, declaring a war against the judiciary system, the IDF top command and the media's freedom, all because the democratic and ethical values that always guided Israel are not allowing them to fulfill their extremist ideology, and because they're easy targets to blame for the inaction and incompetence of the current government. After all, the left wing politicians are powerless, so the media, judiciary system and IDF commanders are now the symbols of the demonized left.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Zinneke on January 06, 2017, 11:19:50 AM
So is the annexation of Palestine just hot air or are they genuinely considering it? What would happen if they did it and found themselves told that they are going too far by the International Community? Or would Trump possibly carry enough weight to wave it through?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 06, 2017, 12:08:04 PM
Given the silence here, I have to ask, has the BBC been overhyping how significant the Elor Azaria case has been in Israel, or are our ardent defenders of Zionism here humane enuf to not defend a homicidal medic, or are both factors the case here? I think both are likely true, but I could be wrong.
Well as a lawyer there was absolutely no doubt he was guilty (I would say the mens rea was sufficient for murder but the court didn't want to go that far). Yet, it also quite true that many similar cases did not end with conviction, and that standard army behavior in the field legitimized such conduct. Hence, it will be unjust to treat him as a scapegoat.
The political right is going rabid over this (rather incoherently I think), the political left is actually rather quiet (the centre-left trying to avoid publicity damage and the harder left knows it's a drop in an ocean so why bother). But the moral discourse here is less interesting than the political one, especially how Liberman and Bennet diverged here.

The CoGS actually came out as the most reasonable speaker here. He became a new enemy of the far right and a new darling for the statist centre-left.

I personally don't find this case all that interesting bar for sociological reasons as signaling trends in society.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on January 06, 2017, 12:34:59 PM
So is the annexation of Palestine just hot air or are they genuinely considering it? What would happen if they did it and found themselves told that they are going too far by the International Community? Or would Trump possibly carry enough weight to wave it through?

The concept of annexing the West Bank/Judea and Samaria (the areas have never been part of an independent entity named Palestine, and were taken over from Jordan) is essentially just hot air because Israel does not want to take on responsibility for millions of Palestinians that would threaten Jewish sovereignty over the area. Nor would they be willing to disenfranchise those Palestinians, because that would legitimately be apartheid and wouldn't be tolerated by the center.

If the international community chooses to push the Jerusalem issue, though, I could very well see an annexation of that area plus several key Jewish regions past the green line, to make that a settled issue.

Let's be clear, though, the "international community" holds very little water in Israel right now, and even less after the EU's drone spying scandal.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 06, 2017, 02:47:28 PM
It goes without saying that I support the people's hero Elor Azaria. Parrotguy has done a good job at describing his "side" of the divide on this issue and in this "culture war" in general, so here's the other side. I view this case as part of the culture war by the endangered establishment, soon to be powerless, against the right-wing movement that, due to shifting political attitudes and changing demographics, is slowly but inevitably going to take over power, both electorally and through its "march through the institutions", and change things.

I agree with hnv1 that the sociological divide is much more interesting than the case itself, even if I do find it more than baffling that so many people don't seem to be morally ok (as opposed to legally, I understand that) with Azaria's actions -- but that's probably not something to discuss here (let's keep this a bit analytical). Anyway, my prediction is that, like almost everything in Israeli politics, this will only embolden the right. To over half of the country, Elor will remain a martyr for years.

So is the annexation of Palestine just hot air or are they genuinely considering it? What would happen if they did it and found themselves told that they are going too far by the International Community? Or would Trump possibly carry enough weight to wave it through?
Bennett wants to annex area C, but almost no one wants to annex everything right  now. Israel would have to give the Palestinians voting rights. Nothing is probably going to happen (though annexing Maale Adumim during a Trump presidency, while not too likely, wouldn't be impossible).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on January 06, 2017, 02:54:58 PM
Don't like the usage of the term "martyr" but I agree with most of DavidB's post.

Elor Azaria killed a terrorist, something that benefits Israel and society as a whole. However, he did violate military protocol and I believe he should be out of the military regardless of what the verdict was. Military protocol is important in almost every country, regardless of what type of governmental system it is under.

I don't think this should have not gone to court. He should've gotten the Israeli equivalent of the U.S. General Discharge (generally good service, but questionable military ethics).

But, since it did go to court, I want a pardon. This harms Israel's image with it's own military to go on a witch hunt. The world will not love Israel for throwing Elor in jail. It will now expect Israel to throw every soldier in jail if they cause even a little bit of controversy.

Allen West did more controversial things then Elor and he was able to leave with his reputation in tact.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on January 06, 2017, 03:04:01 PM
It feels like it should have been a military excessive force trial, not a civilian manslaughter trial.

And it should go without saying that any attempt to take this trial international should be met with complete opposition and threats of retaliation against any body that cooperates.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 06, 2017, 03:13:38 PM
It feels like it should have been a military excessive force trial, not a civilian manslaughter trial.
It was a military trial, not a civilian one.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on January 06, 2017, 04:17:55 PM
It feels like it should have been a military excessive force trial, not a civilian manslaughter trial.
It was a military trial, not a civilian one.

Huh, missed that. Either way, I do think the charges were excessive.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 06, 2017, 06:55:38 PM
Don't like the usage of the term "martyr" but I agree with most of DavidB's post.

Elor Azaria killed a terrorist, something that benefits Israel and society as a whole. However, he did violate military protocol and I believe he should be out of the military regardless of what the verdict was. Military protocol is important in almost every country, regardless of what type of governmental system it is under.


But think on it from this perspective- in the end of WW2, the German soldiers and high commanders all hoped to fall into the hands of the Americans, not the Soviets. Why? Because the Americans treated their captives in a humane manner, even if they were Nazis. Is there a doubt that this terrorist was'nt nearly as bad as the Nazi high commanders? And yet, the Americans didn't execute them on the battlefield because it went against their values. Israel needs to ask itself whether it wants to be the Soviets, or the Americans.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 06, 2017, 07:07:16 PM
Israel needs to ask itself whether it wants to be the Soviets, or the Americans.
It should be neither of those. Israel should first and foremost be a Jewish state, and its laws regarding war and peace should be based on Jewish laws regarding law and peace.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Comrade Funk on January 06, 2017, 07:09:25 PM
Israel needs to ask itself whether it wants to be the Soviets, or the Americans.
It should be neither of those. Israel should first and foremost be a Jewish state, and its laws regarding war and peace should be based on Jewish laws regarding law and peace.
Sounds like a theocracy


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 06, 2017, 07:12:52 PM
Israel needs to ask itself whether it wants to be the Soviets, or the Americans.
It should be neither of those. Israel should first and foremost be a Jewish state, and its laws regarding war and peace should be based on Jewish laws regarding law and peace.

Basing a country's laws and values on a system conceived by people 3000 years ago doesn't sound very healthy. The human society advanced a lot since then in values and morals, and there's no reason the people of the book shouldn't be civilized. In fact, the people of the book should strive to be more civilized than most.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 06, 2017, 07:31:11 PM
Israel needs to ask itself whether it wants to be the Soviets, or the Americans.
It should be neither of those. Israel should first and foremost be a Jewish state, and its laws regarding war and peace should be based on Jewish laws regarding law and peace.
Basing a country's laws and values on a system conceived by people 3000 years ago doesn't sound very healthy. The human society advanced a lot since then in values and morals, and there's no reason the people of the book shouldn't be civilized. In fact, the people of the book should strive to be more civilized than most.
I find Torah to be somewhat more convincing than the fact that it's the current year, but to each their own.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DC Al Fine on January 06, 2017, 07:42:01 PM
Israel needs to ask itself whether it wants to be the Soviets, or the Americans.
It should be neither of those. Israel should first and foremost be a Jewish state, and its laws regarding war and peace should be based on Jewish laws regarding law and peace.
Sounds like a theocracy

Israel needs to ask itself whether it wants to be the Soviets, or the Americans.
It should be neither of those. Israel should first and foremost be a Jewish state, and its laws regarding war and peace should be based on Jewish laws regarding law and peace.

Basing a country's laws and values on a system conceived by people 3000 years ago doesn't sound very healthy. The human society advanced a lot since then in values and morals, and there's no reason the people of the book shouldn't be civilized. In fact, the people of the book should strive to be more civilized than most.

Your game is weak. DavidB hits the nail on the head here. It's like some people forget how to argue when their opponent rejects a 'liberal' premise.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on January 06, 2017, 07:44:19 PM
The guy that was shot was an enemy that found his death after trying to kill people himself. I have no problem his death and don't think any injustice was done here. Having said that, executions shouldn't be done by soldiers acting on their own, they should be done by the state. Shooting someone without authority has its consequences.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 06, 2017, 07:56:35 PM
Israel needs to ask itself whether it wants to be the Soviets, or the Americans.
It should be neither of those. Israel should first and foremost be a Jewish state, and its laws regarding war and peace should be based on Jewish laws regarding law and peace.
Sounds like a theocracy
I'm not saying all of Israel's laws should be 100% identical to Jewish law. That's going to happen when Mashiach comes, but we're not ready for that yet. What I'm saying is that in principle, Torah, Jewish law, and the reasonings on which those laws are based form the best starting point for creating Israeli laws. We shouldn't aim to mirror the American system, or the British system (which we unfortunately inherited; it's fine for the Brits, but not necessarily for us), or the Soviet system. We should aim to be a Jewish state.

The guy that was shot was an enemy that found his death after trying to kill people himself. I have no problem his death and don't think any injustice was done here. Having said that, executions shouldn't be done by soldiers acting on their own, they should be done by the state. Shooting someone without authority has its consequences.
A voice of reason. Thank you. And thank you, DC.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on January 06, 2017, 09:19:26 PM
The guy that was shot was an enemy that found his death after trying to kill people himself. I have no problem his death and don't think any injustice was done here. Having said that, executions shouldn't be done by soldiers acting on their own, they should be done by the state. Shooting someone without authority has its consequences.

This is what I was trying to say in my post but couldn't articulate it as well. Thank you, danny.

Also, @Comrade Funk: Right, because Israel is really in danger of being a theocracy ::) As powerful as the Rabbinate is, you seem to forget that Tel Aviv is as progressive and tikkun olamish as one can get.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on January 06, 2017, 09:30:39 PM
Don't like the usage of the term "martyr" but I agree with most of DavidB's post.

Elor Azaria killed a terrorist, something that benefits Israel and society as a whole. However, he did violate military protocol and I believe he should be out of the military regardless of what the verdict was. Military protocol is important in almost every country, regardless of what type of governmental system it is under.


But think on it from this perspective- in the end of WW2, the German soldiers and high commanders all hoped to fall into the hands of the Americans, not the Soviets. Why? Because the Americans treated their captives in a humane manner, even if they were Nazis. Is there a doubt that this terrorist was'nt nearly as bad as the Nazi high commanders? And yet, the Americans didn't execute them on the battlefield because it went against their values. Israel needs to ask itself whether it wants to be the Soviets, or the Americans.

Eh, irrelevant analogy because America has let our own troops off on more controversial breaches of military ethics then Israel has (again, look at the Allen West situation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_West_(politician)#Iraq_interrogation_incident).

I think the West situation did more damage then the Azaria situation, but in both cases, the military went on a witch hunt to appear PC and "european." Thankfully, the U.S. military still has some self-respect for itself and West was just asked to exit the military with his dignity in tact.

Another situation, where a U.S. military personnel engaged in controversial behavior:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/29/world/middleeast/28cnd-sniper.html

In the first situation, I think it Sandoval was rightfully acquitted, but the military was right to investigate the situation and, in fact, this situation was worse then the one Azaria put himself in.

In the second situation, I think Sandoval was innocent, but Vela was clearly guilty. IDK what happened to Hensley or whether or not he was innocent or guilty.

But, this is how a military investigation is supposed to go. Not how Ya'alon and his ilk wanted it to go.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on January 06, 2017, 10:34:57 PM
Israel needs to ask itself whether it wants to be the Soviets, or the Americans.
It should be neither of those. Israel should first and foremost be a Jewish state, and its laws regarding war and peace should be based on Jewish laws regarding law and peace.

Nice way of deflecting the point. (Same with SunriseAroundTheWorld with his whataboutery in the post just before this one.)  Clearly Parrotguy was asking whether Israel should want to be known as a nation known primarily for its justice (like the US in WW2) or as a nation known primarily for its vengeance (like the Soviets in WW2).

By the way, I don't think a pardon is warranted here, but a murder charge would have been excessive (and impossible to prove absent some evidence of intent to kill a Palestinian on his part even before the attack happened that prompted him into unjust vengeance).  From what I know of the case, I think probation and/or time served combined with a complete prohibition on him ever even holding a gun again since he has clearly shown himself unable to handle the responsibility, would probably be sufficient.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 06, 2017, 10:56:00 PM
Nice way of deflecting the point. Clearly Parrotguy was asking whether Israel should want to be known as a nation known primarily for its justice (like the US in WW2) or as a nation known primarily for its vengeance (like the Soviets in WW2).
Has nothing to do with deflecting his point and everything with rejecting it. I don't care for your and Parrotguy's Western view on morality regarding war and peace. That's the entire point of this disagreement. I also don't think the idea that the U.S. was oh-so just whereas the Soviets were simply being vengeful should be taken seriously.

Personally, I think a pardon is more than warranted, followed by an official government-initiated ceremony on the Temple Mount to celebrate his freedom with the people.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on January 07, 2017, 03:05:01 AM
Nice way of deflecting the point. Clearly Parrotguy was asking whether Israel should want to be known as a nation known primarily for its justice (like the US in WW2) or as a nation known primarily for its vengeance (like the Soviets in WW2).
Has nothing to do with deflecting his point and everything with rejecting it. I don't care for your and Parrotguy's Western view on morality regarding war and peace. That's the entire point of this disagreement. I also don't think the idea that the U.S. was oh-so just whereas the Soviets were simply being vengeful should be taken seriously.

Personally, I think a pardon is more than warranted, followed by an official government-initiated ceremony on the Temple Mount to celebrate his freedom with the people.

Actually, if you'd go back and read your Tanakh, especially Isaiah and Amos, I think you'd see I'm applying a Biblical view on morality. The God I see in there is one that wants people to pursue justice and leave vengeance to him to mete out.  But maybe you won't see it. Maybe you'll prove just as deaf to the warning against hubris and pride found in Amos 6:12-14 as Amaziah and Jeroboam were.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 07, 2017, 05:11:12 AM
Nice way of deflecting the point. Clearly Parrotguy was asking whether Israel should want to be known as a nation known primarily for its justice (like the US in WW2) or as a nation known primarily for its vengeance (like the Soviets in WW2).
Has nothing to do with deflecting his point and everything with rejecting it. I don't care for your and Parrotguy's Western view on morality regarding war and peace. That's the entire point of this disagreement. I also don't think the idea that the U.S. was oh-so just whereas the Soviets were simply being vengeful should be taken seriously.

Personally, I think a pardon is more than warranted, followed by an official government-initiated ceremony on the Temple Mount to celebrate his freedom with the people.

Actually, if you'd go back and read your Tanakh, especially Isaiah and Amos, I think you'd see I'm applying a Biblical view on morality. The God I see in there is one that wants people to pursue justice and leave vengeance to him to mete out.  But maybe you won't see it. Maybe you'll prove just as deaf to the warning against hubris and pride found in Amos 6:12-14 as Amaziah and Jeroboam were.
Actually if you go read a book with thousands of pages written over a span of 300 years by different authors you'll find grounding for whatever you want to believe.

Jewish Law is mainly from the Talmud anyway.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on January 07, 2017, 12:09:05 PM
Jewish Law is mainly from the Talmud anyway.
I freely admit to not being well-versed in the Talmud, but what I know of it suggests to me that in there one will find an emphasis on justice over vengeance as well.

Incidentally, the pursuit of justice is why I don't favor a harsh punishment of Elor Azaria for his crime.  In some ways, he's a victim of the occupation as well, since it no doubt shaped his attitude that it was acceptable to wantonly shoot a helpless person because of his past actions.  However, being a victim does not merit being pardoned for a crime, let alone being considered a martyr.  To call him a martyr is to make a mockery of the word, and of justice.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 08, 2017, 07:59:44 AM
LOL. Netanyahu and his arch nemesis, Yediot's publisher Arnon Moses, were recorded discussing better coverage for Netanyahu there in exchange of Israel Hayom not publishing a weekend edition and maybe shutting down. On top of the corruption case here it also shows Netanyahu's exerts control over Israel Hayom illegally.

The cover of Israel Hayom tomorrow is going to be hilarious


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 08, 2017, 08:05:31 AM
LOL. Netanyahu and his arch nemesis, Yediot's publisher Arnon Moses, were recorded discussing better coverage for Netanyahu there in exchange of Israel Hayom not publishing a weekend edition and maybe shutting down. On top of the corruption case here it also shows Netanyahu's exerts control over Israel Hayom illegally.

The cover of Israel Hayom tomorrow is going to be hilarious
Yeah, it's huge. But doesn't it mean that Moses came to Netanyahu with this offer (since he was the one with something to gain- less competition, while Netanyahu already has a friendly newspaper)? And if so, doesn't it mean that since the Israel Hayom law wasn't passed because of Netanyahu, he did not accept Moses' offer and thus is innocent in this case?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 08, 2017, 08:24:18 AM
LOL. Netanyahu and his arch nemesis, Yediot's publisher Arnon Moses, were recorded discussing better coverage for Netanyahu there in exchange of Israel Hayom not publishing a weekend edition and maybe shutting down. On top of the corruption case here it also shows Netanyahu's exerts control over Israel Hayom illegally.

The cover of Israel Hayom tomorrow is going to be hilarious
Yeah, it's huge. But doesn't it mean that Moses came to Netanyahu with this offer (since he was the one with something to gain- less competition, while Netanyahu already has a friendly newspaper)? And if so, doesn't it mean that since the Israel Hayom law wasn't passed because of Netanyahu, he did not accept Moses' offer and thus is innocent in this case?
Might be I did not hear the content. But it means Bibi has control of the paper which is against funding laws and also means he lied in court twice


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Intell on January 08, 2017, 08:37:27 AM
Let's get rid of the concept that the US government and it's actions in foreign policy, are any better than Israel's. I supported the settlement resolution, but the US only defended Israel, because of those dirty soviets, and it's foreign policy on left-wing development in third word, replacing it with fascist regime, for vengeance for not participating in NATO hegemony is awful.

I know this is off-topic, but if we're talking about US foreign policy, is not martyr levels, in Israel or otherwise.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 08, 2017, 08:45:14 AM
LOL. Netanyahu and his arch nemesis, Yediot's publisher Arnon Moses, were recorded discussing better coverage for Netanyahu there in exchange of Israel Hayom not publishing a weekend edition and maybe shutting down. On top of the corruption case here it also shows Netanyahu's exerts control over Israel Hayom illegally.

The cover of Israel Hayom tomorrow is going to be hilarious
Yeah, it's huge. But doesn't it mean that Moses came to Netanyahu with this offer (since he was the one with something to gain- less competition, while Netanyahu already has a friendly newspaper)? And if so, doesn't it mean that since the Israel Hayom law wasn't passed because of Netanyahu, he did not accept Moses' offer and thus is innocent in this case?
Might be I did not hear the content. But it means Bibi has control of the paper which is against funding laws and also means he lied in court twice

Yeah, did not hear it yet too. Just assuming according to each man's motives. I've a feeling that this might be the biggest thing to come out of these investigations.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 08, 2017, 09:47:47 AM
LOL. Netanyahu and his arch nemesis, Yediot's publisher Arnon Moses, were recorded discussing better coverage for Netanyahu there in exchange of Israel Hayom not publishing a weekend edition and maybe shutting down. On top of the corruption case here it also shows Netanyahu's exerts control over Israel Hayom illegally.

The cover of Israel Hayom tomorrow is going to be hilarious
Yeah, it's huge. But doesn't it mean that Moses came to Netanyahu with this offer (since he was the one with something to gain- less competition, while Netanyahu already has a friendly newspaper)? And if so, doesn't it mean that since the Israel Hayom law wasn't passed because of Netanyahu, he did not accept Moses' offer and thus is innocent in this case?
Might be I did not hear the content. But it means Bibi has control of the paper which is against funding laws and also means he lied in court twice

Yeah, did not hear it yet too. Just assuming according to each man's motives. I've a feeling that this might be the biggest thing to come out of these investigations.
Regardless, even if full on bribe did not happen there's enough substance for an attempted bribe and attempt is punishable by the common law. They both bribed each other in this scenario as it was a bargain.
And they didn't even begin investigating the submarines affair...

I think we will see a very vulgar Bibi in the coming weeks


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 08, 2017, 09:50:46 AM
LOL. Netanyahu and his arch nemesis, Yediot's publisher Arnon Moses, were recorded discussing better coverage for Netanyahu there in exchange of Israel Hayom not publishing a weekend edition and maybe shutting down. On top of the corruption case here it also shows Netanyahu's exerts control over Israel Hayom illegally.

The cover of Israel Hayom tomorrow is going to be hilarious
Yeah, it's huge. But doesn't it mean that Moses came to Netanyahu with this offer (since he was the one with something to gain- less competition, while Netanyahu already has a friendly newspaper)? And if so, doesn't it mean that since the Israel Hayom law wasn't passed because of Netanyahu, he did not accept Moses' offer and thus is innocent in this case?
Might be I did not hear the content. But it means Bibi has control of the paper which is against funding laws and also means he lied in court twice

Yeah, did not hear it yet too. Just assuming according to each man's motives. I've a feeling that this might be the biggest thing to come out of these investigations.
Regardless, even if full on bribe did not happen there's enough substance for an attempted bribe and attempt is punishable by the common law. They both bribed each other in this scenario as it was a bargain.
And they didn't even begin investigating the submarines affair...

I think we will see a very vulgar Bibi in the coming weeks

What scares me more than snap elections is... There was a big terror attack today. Could Bibi pull an Underwood (aka start a war/operation when things go south)? It sounds crazy, but I do hope he's not that cynical.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 08, 2017, 09:54:15 AM
LOL. Netanyahu and his arch nemesis, Yediot's publisher Arnon Moses, were recorded discussing better coverage for Netanyahu there in exchange of Israel Hayom not publishing a weekend edition and maybe shutting down. On top of the corruption case here it also shows Netanyahu's exerts control over Israel Hayom illegally.

The cover of Israel Hayom tomorrow is going to be hilarious
Yeah, it's huge. But doesn't it mean that Moses came to Netanyahu with this offer (since he was the one with something to gain- less competition, while Netanyahu already has a friendly newspaper)? And if so, doesn't it mean that since the Israel Hayom law wasn't passed because of Netanyahu, he did not accept Moses' offer and thus is innocent in this case?
Might be I did not hear the content. But it means Bibi has control of the paper which is against funding laws and also means he lied in court twice

Yeah, did not hear it yet too. Just assuming according to each man's motives. I've a feeling that this might be the biggest thing to come out of these investigations.
Regardless, even if full on bribe did not happen there's enough substance for an attempted bribe and attempt is punishable by the common law. They both bribed each other in this scenario as it was a bargain.
And they didn't even begin investigating the submarines affair...

I think we will see a very vulgar Bibi in the coming weeks

What scares me more than snap elections is... There was a big terror attack today. Could Bibi pull an Underwood (aka start a war/operation when things go south)? It sounds crazy, but I do hope he's not that cynical.
I did not watch house of cards so I don't know the reference. But the 2015 and 2013 Gaza operations had more than a political odor to them, and 2009 is also dubious in the aspects. I doubt he has the guts to get something going in the West Bank though, and Gaza is as quite as a deadman now.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Meclazine for Israel on January 08, 2017, 10:42:01 AM
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-08/jerusalem-truck-attack/8168824

This is total crap. I cannot see what the Palestinians could be possibly hoping to achieve.

If anything, it just sets their cause back.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 08, 2017, 10:51:55 AM
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-08/jerusalem-truck-attack/8168824

This is total crap. I cannot see what the Palestinians could be possibly hoping to achieve.

If anything, it just sets their cause back.

It's not 'the Palestinans'. Certainly not Mahmoud Abbas, as you said, he doesn't have anything to achieve. These kinds of attacks are mostly one person deciding to act on his own, sometimes he's encouraged or aided by an organization like Hamas or ISIS, but most of the times he acts independantly while claiming to belong to some organization. This time it appears to be ISIS, which is not related to any Palestinian leadership.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Cubby on January 08, 2017, 11:21:54 AM
The silence from red Avatars about this morning's Terrorist Attack is deafening. Still glad you're defending those scumbags?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Zinneke on January 08, 2017, 11:33:02 AM
The silence from red Avatars about this morning's Terrorist Attack is deafening. Still glad you're defending those scumbags?

Post quotes of people defending Palestinian terrorists so we can judge for ourselves.

Anyway, I'm wondering if its ever possible Netenyahu ever re-allies with the centre again? Has he burned too many bridges? What about Likud as a whole?

Also, if Trump says he'll move the embassy to Jerusalem in exchange for a sever decrease in American financial aid, how does this current Israeli administration respond?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on January 08, 2017, 12:45:53 PM
If Obama and the Palestinians' actual goal was to create a far-right-wing Israel that would never return to the table again and would rule through escalating military force, they could not have planned this month any better.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 08, 2017, 01:46:12 PM
These kinds of attacks are mostly one person deciding to act on his own, sometimes he's encouraged or aided by an organization like Hamas or ISIS, but most of the times he acts independantly while claiming to belong to some organization. This time it appears to be ISIS, which is not related to any Palestinian leadership.
Sure, but at the same time attacks like these are far too much celebrated in Palestinian society, including by Palestinian political leaders. The perpetrators are widely perceived as heroes and receive money from the PA if they survive.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 10, 2017, 01:24:24 PM
Haaretz reveals the planned deal between Moses and Netanyahu: Moses will convert the powerful Yediot group to support Bibi while Bibi would have promoted a ban on free newspapers (and his 250 million $ gift from Sheldon). There is undoubtedly all elements of corruption charges in this case (including false testimony in 2 other court cases and a breach of funding laws).
I can't see him avoiding indictment here, even if his lackey Mendelblit will try to shut the case down a court writ will force him to place charges.

By reports even Netanyahu was shocked when he found out police had records of that conversation. I hope both he and Moses get jail time, I can't think of people I hate more in our political system (bar for Lapid).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on January 10, 2017, 01:43:47 PM
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-08/jerusalem-truck-attack/8168824

This is total crap. I cannot see what the Palestinians could be possibly hoping to achieve.

If anything, it just sets their cause back.

I mean, I agree with you but why are you acting surprised? Are you too young to remember the Second Intafada? Palestinians used to blow up Israeli civilians multiple times a week (not exaggerating) in the early 2000s. They would have undoubtedly kept doing so until this very day if not for Israel building The Wall.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Comrade Funk on January 10, 2017, 02:35:58 PM
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-08/jerusalem-truck-attack/8168824

This is total crap. I cannot see what the Palestinians could be possibly hoping to achieve.

If anything, it just sets their cause back.
Religious nationalism is a dirty combination. Deranges the mind.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 11, 2017, 07:26:15 AM
The Knesset today voted (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/223122) 51-17 in favor of banning the far left NGO Breaking the Silence from schools, with Meretz and the Joint List opposing the proposal.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on January 11, 2017, 07:36:38 AM
The Knesset today voted (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/223122) 51-17 in favor of banning the far left NGO Breaking the Silence from schools, with Meretz and the Joint List opposing the proposal.

Meretz and ZU, I assume the Joint List would be against, but no one from the party was present.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 11, 2017, 08:24:49 AM
The Knesset today voted (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/223122) 51-17 in favor of banning the far left NGO Breaking the Silence from schools, with Meretz and the Joint List opposing the proposal.
Meretz and ZU, I assume the Joint List would be against, but no one from the party was present.
I stand corrected. Had hoped some people in ZU would have seen the light, but too optimistic.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Intell on January 11, 2017, 08:39:11 AM
The Knesset today voted (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/223122) 51-17 in favor of banning the far left NGO Breaking the Silence from schools, with Meretz and the Joint List opposing the proposal.
Meretz and ZU, I assume the Joint List would be against, but no one from the party was present.
I stand corrected. Had hoped some people in ZU would have seen the light, but too optimistic.

::)

Soldiers can't have freedom of speech, and children be expose and learn different viewpoints it seems.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 11, 2017, 09:58:43 AM
Soldiers shouldn't speak against the state and treason shouldn't be allowed in schools (or anywhere, for that matter, but that's going to come soon too), that's correct.

In other news, the arch-progressive High Court has given yet more proof (not that it was needed) why its powers should be curbed by giving the state 30 days to show why women can't read the Torah in prayer services at the Kotel. High time to place the rabbis above the High Court on matters involving Judaism.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 11, 2017, 11:19:03 AM
Soldiers shouldn't speak against the state and treason shouldn't be allowed in schools (or anywhere, for that matter, but that's going to come soon too), that's correct.

In other news, the arch-progressive High Court has given yet more proof (not that it was needed) why its powers should be curbed by giving the state 30 days to show why women can't read the Torah in prayer services at the Kotel. High time to place the rabbis above the High Court on matters involving Judaism.

Why? Would you be fine with the Supreme Court, or that of Netherlands, getting its powers curbed? This is a direct attack on Israeli democracy.
Also, I don't see the problem with women reading Torah. They're humans too, aren't they? Whether the Orthodox Establishment likes it or no, people are getting tired of them. They're making many in Israel (including me) feel hostility to the Jewish religion, and that's a crime. The Rabbinate's iron grip over everything from marriage to burial has to end, and Israel has to recognize the Reformist and Conservative Jews. It's mind-boggling that the Jewish State is the only one not recognizing them, and it's also a direct insult against the American Jews who're so invaluable to Israel.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 11, 2017, 11:59:19 AM
Why? Would you be fine with the Supreme Court, or that of Netherlands, getting its powers curbed?
Fortunately we are one of the few countries that don't do constitutional review and the like, and we don't have a Supreme Court. If we had one, I'd absolutely be fine with curbing its powers as much as possible, as I want judges' power to be limited. In a democracy it is elected officials who should decide on the laws and set the standards, not activist judges.

This is a direct attack on Israeli democracy.
On the contrary. Left-wing judicial activism in Israel is an attack on Israeli democracy.

Also, I don't see the problem with women reading Torah. They're humans too, aren't they?
Yes, but they don't get to do things that are only for men, just as men are not going to get to light the shabbat candles. This is pretty basic stuff. Besides, WoW aren't even really religious, they're just disingenuous feminist trolls.

Whether the Orthodox Establishment likes it or no, people are getting tired of them.
Sometimes being right doesn't make you popular. (Being corrupt doesn't help their case either, to be fair.) That said, orthodoxy is only going to become more popular given demographic trends.

They're making many in Israel (including me) feel hostility to the Jewish religion, and that's a crime.
How?

The Rabbinate's iron grip over everything from marriage to burial has to end, and Israel has to recognize the Reformist and Conservative Jews. It's mind-boggling that the Jewish State is the only one not recognizing them, and it's also a direct insult against the American Jews who're so invaluable to Israel.
The American Jews that are invaluable to Israel are either not Conservative or Reform, or they are but they respect Israel's character as a real Jewish state. Reform and Conservative Jews are legitimate Jews but their type of Judaism is theologically and halachically illegitimate and fake, and a real Jewish state should not recognize them. Fortunately that's unlikely to happen (though we should remain careful, because the Likud are opportunistic enough to do it).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 11, 2017, 12:17:19 PM
The Knesset today voted (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/223122) 51-17 in favor of banning the far left NGO Breaking the Silence from schools, with Meretz and the Joint List opposing the proposal.
The Joint List are on strike as a protest to some houses being demolished.

The rule actually forbids organization that support the trial of Israeli's abroad to appear in schools. So, A. it will not apply to Breaking the Silence as this is not their agenda and supposing otherwise will make the state action ultra vires. B. It is a general norm created with individual specific goals, that is problematic as to the rule-of-aw doctrine. As I know our constitutional law very well, this will either be voided or restricted from actually applying.

Now for real politics. My sources in ZU are saying they like Meretz and YA are already allocating resources for a possible election by the end of the year.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: dead0man on January 11, 2017, 02:19:10 PM
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-08/jerusalem-truck-attack/8168824

This is total crap. I cannot see what the Palestinians could be possibly hoping to achieve.

If anything, it just sets their cause back.

It's not 'the Palestinans'. Certainly not Mahmoud Abbas, as you said, he doesn't have anything to achieve. These kinds of attacks are mostly one person deciding to act on his own, sometimes he's encouraged or aided by an organization like Hamas or ISIS, but most of the times he acts independantly while claiming to belong to some organization. This time it appears to be ISIS, which is not related to any Palestinian leadership.
Yeah, 'cause Abbas and Fatah would NEVER encourage terrorism ::)  They're moderates!

Sarcasm aside, these destroyers of peace are not embarrassments to their families, they are heroes to them.   They see in these "martyrs" heroes who have "watered the pure earth of Palestine with their blood" (actual quote by Abbas).  Cut this "one person deciding to act" bull sh**t.  It's one person after one person after one person all encouraged from birth by their family, their culture and their govt that people that do these horrible acts are people to be admired and remembered.  That they'll will be rewarded in the after life and that their families will be rewarded for the "sacrifice" too.  It's all very disgusting.

Abbas thinks moving the US embassy to Jerusalem is a road block to peace?  Does he know what else is a road block to peace?  Driving over people waiting for the bus.  You know what's an even bigger road block to peace?  Encouraging more of the same.  There will never be peace until the culture there gets fixed.  Israel can't change it anymore than I can.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 11, 2017, 02:20:59 PM
MK itzik Schmoli endorses Peretz in the Labour leadership race


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 11, 2017, 04:02:23 PM
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-08/jerusalem-truck-attack/8168824

This is total crap. I cannot see what the Palestinians could be possibly hoping to achieve.

If anything, it just sets their cause back.

It's not 'the Palestinans'. Certainly not Mahmoud Abbas, as you said, he doesn't have anything to achieve. These kinds of attacks are mostly one person deciding to act on his own, sometimes he's encouraged or aided by an organization like Hamas or ISIS, but most of the times he acts independantly while claiming to belong to some organization. This time it appears to be ISIS, which is not related to any Palestinian leadership.
Yeah, 'cause Abbas and Fatah would NEVER encourage terrorism ::)  They're moderates!

Sarcasm aside, these destroyers of peace are not embarrassments to their families, they are heroes to them.   They see in these "martyrs" heroes who have "watered the pure earth of Palestine with their blood" (actual quote by Abbas).  Cut this "one person deciding to act" bull sh**t.  It's one person after one person after one person all encouraged from birth by their family, their culture and their govt that people that do these horrible acts are people to be admired and remembered.  That they'll will be rewarded in the after life and that their families will be rewarded for the "sacrifice" too.  It's all very disgusting.

Abbas thinks moving the US embassy to Jerusalem is a road block to peace?  Does he know what else is a road block to peace?  Driving over people waiting for the bus.  You know what's an even bigger road block to peace?  Encouraging more of the same.  There will never be peace until the culture there gets fixed.  Israel can't change it anymore than I can.
I was only speaking about the current, specific attack.

MK itzik Schmoli endorses Peretz in the Labour leadership race
Eh. Peretz already failed many times, why would he be any more electable now? Besides, he's considered a bad Minister of Defence, and the people's existential fear was a major reason for Netanyahu's victory last time.

By the way, small, random detail- the cannabis legislation party, Ale Yarok, announced on their Facebook page that they're supporting Netanyahu and don't want him to be indicted, because the current government is making some progress on cannabis and they don't want Lapid. I guess they've officially given up any chance  to get seats.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on January 11, 2017, 07:08:12 PM
Haaretz reveals the planned deal between Moses and Netanyahu: Moses will convert the powerful Yediot group to support Bibi while Bibi would have promoted a ban on free newspapers (and his 250 million $ gift from Sheldon). There is undoubtedly all elements of corruption charges in this case (including false testimony in 2 other court cases and a breach of funding laws).
I can't see him avoiding indictment here, even if his lackey Mendelblit will try to shut the case down a court writ will force him to place charges.

By reports even Netanyahu was shocked when he found out police had records of that conversation. I hope both he and Moses get jail time, I can't think of people I hate more in our political system (bar for Lapid).


Is this tape actually real? or, like everything else the Israeli media spews, is it fake? If it is real, why hasn't it been released yet?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 12, 2017, 03:38:31 AM
Haaretz reveals the planned deal between Moses and Netanyahu: Moses will convert the powerful Yediot group to support Bibi while Bibi would have promoted a ban on free newspapers (and his 250 million $ gift from Sheldon). There is undoubtedly all elements of corruption charges in this case (including false testimony in 2 other court cases and a breach of funding laws).
I can't see him avoiding indictment here, even if his lackey Mendelblit will try to shut the case down a court writ will force him to place charges.

By reports even Netanyahu was shocked when he found out police had records of that conversation. I hope both he and Moses get jail time, I can't think of people I hate more in our political system (bar for Lapid).


Is this tape actually real? or, like everything else the Israeli media spews, is it fake? If it is real, why hasn't it been released yet?
I suspect there are elements of it still under investigation and people who need to testify. So we're getting little leaks every day and they're quite shocking.

Quote
Eh. Peretz already failed many times, why would he be any more electable now? Besides, he's considered a bad Minister of Defence, and the people's existential fear was a major reason for Netanyahu's victory last time.
His defence image was rehabilitated slightly with Iron Dome, anyway the identity politics idiots think he can win over voters from the right.

Quote
By the way, small, random detail- the cannabis legislation party, Ale Yarok, announced on their Facebook page that they're supporting Netanyahu and don't want him to be indicted, because the current government is making some progress on cannabis and they don't want Lapid. I guess they've officially given up any chance  to get seats.
Since 2009 the driving force behind them is the New Liberal Movement whose most members are now Likud members.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Intell on January 12, 2017, 07:24:22 AM
In regards to Israel, there is, at least from my opinion a great youtuber who asks questions about the Israel-Palestine issues in Israel and Palestine and around the world. Been hooked on his videos.

https://www.youtube.com/user/coreygilshuster (https://www.youtube.com/user/coreygilshuster)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 20, 2017, 06:01:26 AM
The coming indictment(s?) are looming above the political sphere, and most major players prepare and estimate a GE by next winter.

Maariv Poll from today:
Do you think the allegations against Bibi are sound?
57% - yes
28% - no
15% - I don't know
(same % view a snap election to save his skin as unworthy\worthy\don't know)

Who's best fitting to be PM afterwards?
21% Lapid
12% Bennet
7% - Sa'ar
6% Ya'alon
others

Who should lead Likud (general public):
Sa'ar - 18%
Ya'alon - 10%
Erdan - 10%
Kachlon - 9%
others

Who should lead Likud (Likud voters):
Erdan up front (couldn't find the percentage)
Sa'ar (likewise)
Katz - 10%
Regev - 10%
Kachlon - 7%
Steinitz - 6%

Mock elections status quo ante:
YA - 26
Likud - 23
JH - 13
JAL - 13
ZU - 9
UTJ - 8
Liberman - 7
Shas - 7
Meretz - 7
Kachlon - 7

some counterfactuals: Ashkenazi with Lapid doesn't change much, Ya'alon joining Lapid boosts him to 30, Ya'alon by himself polls 8 (but mainly from the left).

Labour lead by Ashkenazi:
Likud - 24
YA - 22
Labour - 15
JH - 11
JAL - 13
UTJ - 8
Liberman - 8
Meretz - 6
Kachlon - 6

Likud led by Bennet:
Likud - 29
YA - 27
JAL - 13
ZU - 9
UTJ - 8
Liberman - 7
Shas - 7
Meretz - 7
Kachlon - 7
JH - 6

Labour politics! so the elections to be Labour's General Secretary (with a promised position as 7th on the ballot, considering Labour's dismal state, made it a very appealing position) were held yesterday. The winner lacked 6 votes for the 40% so we'll have a second round next week. Results as I gathered them:
Yaya Fink 39.61% (Yechimovic's former henchman)
Eran Hermoni - 32.38% (Herzog and other establishment figures guy)
MK Michal Biran - 18.33% (former Yechimovic majordomo)
Richard Peres - 9.16% (some random guy)
Aby Benjamin - 0.something% (an outsider)

Fink and Hermoni are going to make it to the next round, I guess Fink is going to clinch it as the Biran voters will sway towards him.

 


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Ronnie on January 21, 2017, 05:32:00 PM
After the 2015 election, I'm skeptical of any poll that comes out.  If Likud is down, they'll just whip their base into a frenzy with rhetoric of fear and paranoia and loathing and despair in the waning hours of the election, and manage to pull through.

Israel has a permanent right wing majority, and people just need to accept that.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 21, 2017, 08:29:43 PM
Netanyahu has asked Bayit Yehudi leader Naftali Bennett not to put to the vote his bill on the annexation of Maale Adumim, a suburb/"settlement" to the east of Jerusalem. The vote was scheduled to take place in a ministerial panel on Sunday. According to Haaretz, the Trump team has asked Netanyahu to wait with any unilateral steps before the first Trump-Netanyahu meeting in early February.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 22, 2017, 05:47:58 AM
Labour internal politics*:
Ehud Barak who in the last year started tweeting frantically against Bibi whilst claiming he has no political intentions (what no one believes), will be addressing some Labour internal forum next week (so I've heard) called 'the main stream'. Mainly old Labourites with a military fetish yet still an interesting twist.
Avi Gabbay who recently joined announced his intentions to run for leadership, he's also a very good friend of Ashkenazi, not quite sure what's happening there but Herzog could willingly give up the leadership with some dignifying bargain.
Amir Peretz, another heir presumptive, allegedly had 10K members join since he declared his intention to run for leadership.
my gut instinct tells me most leadership candidates will boot the eternal rent boy Livni as soon as they are elected....

*Outsiders probably wouldn't understand the fascination with Labour politics, it's probably a relic every leftist hold from the days Labour internal politics=Israeli national politics.

Likud news:
Kachlon is set fully prepared to bounce into Likud, his top ministers seem to be starting their primary season there already.
Sa'ar is also alert

Meretz news:
The field of candidates doesn't look to change as each candidate has his own base in the party convention. The Galon-Gilon battle is slowly but steadily killing the party from the inside, every small appointment and procedure becomes a battle in fashion of trots politics. I hope Peretz wins and Gilon could bugger off to be socialist there.

The right wingers are so cowardly, none of them has the guts to pull the trigger on annexation (and have their name on an intifada) so they want good old uncle Trump to give them a vox dei and invite them to annex territories. I think they are going to be dully disappointed, Trump might not mind to do but he's not going to instruct them to do so.   


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 22, 2017, 05:56:07 AM
A retreat from Bar Illan speech? Bibi stating the most he's willing to give the Palestinians is a "State minus". I do think that's more close to his honest opinion but the timing is dubious


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 22, 2017, 04:46:15 PM
What about Erel Margalit? I guess his popularity rose with Labour grassroots recently. Does he have a chance? I'd say that out of all the candidates, he and Gabay are the only ones who can bring back some hope for the Labour party.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on January 22, 2017, 06:49:57 PM
Erel Margalit is a terrible candidate. Ultra capitalist and in favor of a grand coalition with Likud. Right-wing on the economy and right-wing on peace. Who does he appeal to? Who would vote for him?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 23, 2017, 01:47:17 AM
Erel Margalit is a terrible candidate. Ultra capitalist and in favor of a grand coalition with Likud. Right-wing on the economy and right-wing on peace. Who does he appeal to? Who would vote for him?
Swing voters, old and young.

As to his odds, it's an enigma as he doesn't have a clear base but has enough money to recuperate it.

Also I don't think he's ultra capitalist, very Blairite, for increased government spending on infrastructure/health/poor areas, with reasonable wiggle room for free market initiative. His economic policy is not that different from Labour's 90s policy or other current moderate MKs. He was for a coalition last time around he was actually the most vocal opponent of it since the last GE. His view on the peace process is obscure. From what I hear a lot of voters who moved to Lapid find his politics appealing, Peretz and Shelly have no such attraction


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 23, 2017, 10:38:42 AM
Erel Margalit is a terrible candidate. Ultra capitalist and in favor of a grand coalition with Likud. Right-wing on the economy and right-wing on peace. Who does he appeal to? Who would vote for him?
Swing voters, old and young.

As to his odds, it's an enigma as he doesn't have a clear base but has enough money to recuperate it.

Also I don't think he's ultra capitalist, very Blairite, for increased government spending on infrastructure/health/poor areas, with reasonable wiggle room for free market initiative. His economic policy is not that different from Labour's 90s policy or other current moderate MKs. He was for a coalition last time around he was actually the most vocal opponent of it since the last GE. His view on the peace process is obscure. From what I hear a lot of voters who moved to Lapid find his politics appealing, Peretz and Shelly have no such attraction

Also, he did present a plan on the conflict- it seems to involve cooperation with Arabic countries, and he definitely is for a 2 state solution. By the way, being for entering the government last time is a plus for me. A united secular government had a larger chance to achieve gay rights and perhaos even a peace agreement than a government with the Jewish Home.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 23, 2017, 03:16:32 PM
- Police informs that there additional two criminal investigations against Bibi, one regarding the said purchase of submarines and the other on unspecified offenses for now.
The end is near, this is starting to look like the end of Olmeret on steroids/

- Ayoub Karah (Likud) has been appointed a minister without portfolio, he is by far one of the more comical characters in politics. Eli Cohen (Kulano) was appointed as Minister of Economics.

- Ministry of Justice published a report recommending the decriminalization of marijuana. Minister Shaked surprisingly agreed. Finally some good news I guess


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 23, 2017, 03:30:03 PM
- Police informs that there additional two criminal investigations against Bibi, one regarding the said purchase of submarines and the other on unspecified offenses for now.
The end is near, this is starting to look like the end of Olmeret on steroids/

- Ayoub Karah (Likud) has been appointed a minister without portfolio, he is by far one of the more comical characters in politics. Eli Cohen (Kulano) was appointed as Minister of Economics.

- Ministry of Justice published a report recommending the decriminalization of marijuana. Minister Shaked surprisingly agreed. Finally some good news I guess

Was Kahlon the Economics minister anyway, or did Bibi grant Kulanu another ministry? Perhaps in an attempt to stop them from acting against him because of the corruption charges.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 23, 2017, 03:50:11 PM
- Police informs that there additional two criminal investigations against Bibi, one regarding the said purchase of submarines and the other on unspecified offenses for now.
The end is near, this is starting to look like the end of Olmeret on steroids/

- Ayoub Karah (Likud) has been appointed a minister without portfolio, he is by far one of the more comical characters in politics. Eli Cohen (Kulano) was appointed as Minister of Economics.

- Ministry of Justice published a report recommending the decriminalization of marijuana. Minister Shaked surprisingly agreed. Finally some good news I guess

Was Kahlon the Economics minister anyway, or did Bibi grant Kulanu another ministry? Perhaps in an attempt to stop them from acting against him because of the corruption charges.
He gave it to Kachlon last year after the Deri'i debacle. It's simply a move to get more hands around the government table, why is it happening now? I can only speculate and I think you're right on the money.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 26, 2017, 03:28:37 AM
Well it's all but official, Israel is moving to for decriminalization (sorta) of marijuana use


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 26, 2017, 07:50:08 AM
Got a text message from Labour party, new poll:
Margalit- 28%
Peretz- 26%
Avi Gabay (former Environmental Protection Minister who left the Netanyahu government nd joined Labour)- 17%
Herzog- 8%


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 26, 2017, 08:47:06 AM
Congrats on 420. I'm sure those people who are barely or not at all able to make ends meet because of decades of inadequate social and housing policies are relieved. (Sorry, this is the cynic in me talking.)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 26, 2017, 09:49:55 AM
Congrats on 420. I'm sure those people who are barely or not at all able to make ends meet because of decades of inadequate social and housing policies are relieved. (Sorry, this is the cynic in me talking.)
Considering most people persecuted are poor and not the rich kids, this is actually mostly to their benefit.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 26, 2017, 09:57:29 AM
Got a text message from Labour party, new poll:
Margalit- 28%
Peretz- 26%
Avi Gabay (former Environmental Protection Minister who left the Netanyahu government nd joined Labour)- 17%
Herzog- 8%
The actual poll does say Amir Peretz is winning any possible head to head. Shame

As to those figures some say they are fake and it's actually 8/26/28/17 (in the order you specified). I'm not sure what to make of this


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 26, 2017, 11:13:33 AM
Congrats on 420. I'm sure those people who are barely or not at all able to make ends meet because of decades of inadequate social and housing policies are relieved. (Sorry, this is the cynic in me talking.)
Considering most people persecuted are poor and not the rich kids, this is actually mostly to their benefit.
Fair point. I'm not opposed to it, to be sure. How often were people still prosecuted (hopefully not persecuted... :p) for it?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 26, 2017, 11:22:08 AM
Congrats on 420. I'm sure those people who are barely or not at all able to make ends meet because of decades of inadequate social and housing policies are relieved. (Sorry, this is the cynic in me talking.)
Considering most people persecuted are poor and not the rich kids, this is actually mostly to their benefit.
Fair point. I'm not opposed to it, to be sure. How often were people still prosecuted (hopefully not persecuted... :p) for it?
Several hundred cases per year. But the real revelation now is that recreational use at home is completely legitimate. Police acted quite freely in entering homes without warrants (especially in deprived areas), so all in all it's a very good policy toward working class people.

Years ago I used to smoke every now and then (though THC was never my favorite kick) and police picked me up for possession of 1g, I was a well spoken law student so it ended with me being registered in some police database for a year. A Russian friend of mine at the time who came from a poor family was also lifted on similar charge, he ended up being indicted, sentenced to 6 months of public service and had a criminal record...


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 26, 2017, 11:58:28 AM
Got a text message from Labour party, new poll:
Margalit- 28%
Peretz- 26%
Avi Gabay (former Environmental Protection Minister who left the Netanyahu government nd joined Labour)- 17%
Herzog- 8%
The actual poll does say Amir Peretz is winning any possible head to head. Shame

As to those figures some say they are fake and it's actually 8/26/28/17 (in the order you specified). I'm not sure what to make of this

Got a new text from Labour. Now they're presenting a new polls, or the same one, with different results:
Peretz- 32.5
Yachimovich- 17.5
Gabay- 16.7
Margalit- 11.5
Herzog- 10.4
Omer Barlev- 4.3

Weird. I guess if they don't run, Barlev supporters will mainly go to Margalit and Yachimovich supporters to Peretz. He seems almost inevitable here. Seems like voters of all parties have a painfully short memort.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 26, 2017, 12:02:58 PM
Congrats on 420. I'm sure those people who are barely or not at all able to make ends meet because of decades of inadequate social and housing policies are relieved. (Sorry, this is the cynic in me talking.)
Considering most people persecuted are poor and not the rich kids, this is actually mostly to their benefit.
Fair point. I'm not opposed to it, to be sure. How often were people still prosecuted (hopefully not persecuted... :p) for it?
Several hundred cases per year. But the real revelation now is that recreational use at home is completely legitimate. Police acted quite freely in entering homes without warrants (especially in deprived areas), so all in all it's a very good policy toward working class people.

Years ago I used to smoke every now and then (though THC was never my favorite kick) and police picked me up for possession of 1g, I was a well spoken law student so it ended with me being registered in some police database for a year. A Russian friend of mine at the time who came from a poor family was also lifted on similar charge, he ended up being indicted, sentenced to 6 months of public service and had a criminal record...
As a Dutchman I tend to think of smoking weed as no big deal, both here and in other countries (though I don't do it: don't like it), but I'm aware of the fact that in way too many situations that isn't necessarily the case at all, especially if you are disadvantaged to begin with. Good to know this policy has ended.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 26, 2017, 12:16:45 PM
Got a text message from Labour party, new poll:
Margalit- 28%
Peretz- 26%
Avi Gabay (former Environmental Protection Minister who left the Netanyahu government nd joined Labour)- 17%
Herzog- 8%
The actual poll does say Amir Peretz is winning any possible head to head. Shame

As to those figures some say they are fake and it's actually 8/26/28/17 (in the order you specified). I'm not sure what to make of this

Got a new text from Labour. Now they're presenting a new polls, or the same one, with different results:
Peretz- 32.5
Yachimovich- 17.5
Gabay- 16.7
Margalit- 11.5
Herzog- 10.4
Omer Barlev- 4.3

Weird. I guess if they don't run, Barlev supporters will mainly go to Margalit and Yachimovich supporters to Peretz. He seems almost inevitable here. Seems like voters of all parties have a painfully short memort.
Yes I saw the PDF, polling 400 Labour members is a fickle affair. I think we'll have a clearer picture in June. Yet it's quite clear it's over for Herzog, I wonder if he'll have enough dignity to poll a Gabriel and step down (after he bad mouthed Margalit, and his hate to Shelly and Peretz I can't see him stepping down for either).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 29, 2017, 01:10:26 PM
Ehud Barak is almost dead on back to Labour. He will join a number of bland ex generals who announced their intentions the past few days.
Labour general secretary elections are overת Hermoni managed to win the second round with 50.5% over Fink's 49%. Hermoni was backed by everyone part for the Shelly camp. He will be designated number 7 on the list so he will be an MK next time around.

Fro absolute denial to going Ardogan on the media clear and increasing signs of panic are discernible in Bibi's remarks on his criminal problems. He's going down and it's going to be a dirty fall


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 29, 2017, 05:15:52 PM
Ehud Barak is almost dead on back to Labour. He will join a number of bland ex generals who announced their intentions the past few days.
Labour general secretary elections are overת Hermoni managed to win the second round with 50.5% over Fink's 49%. Hermoni was backed by everyone part for the Shelly camp. He will be designated number 7 on the list so he will be an MK next time around.

Fro absolute denial to going Ardogan on the media clear and increasing signs of panic are discernible in Bibi's remarks on his criminal problems. He's going down and it's going to be a dirty fall

Lol, typical Israeli typo :)
Anyway, surprised and disappointed that Harmoni won. He seems much more boring than Fink. In any case, these elections showed just how much the Labour needs a shake-up. Two boring figures who were there just because of their ties to powerhouses. This position should've been given to someone with some star power, like Biran.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on January 29, 2017, 05:42:12 PM
Ehud Barak is almost dead on back to Labour.

As a wise man once said, aaaaayyyy lmao.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 05, 2017, 07:56:34 AM
Yechimovic will run to head the Histadrut (national workers' federation) which means she will not run to be Labour's leader even if she loses. If she wins in May she will forgo her Knesset seat. It will be an interesting match to see who secures the electric company union and the dockers union.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Santander on February 06, 2017, 12:17:50 PM
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Amid-UN-warning-Israel-set-to-pass-historic-settlements-bill-480740

I'm not sure about this.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on February 06, 2017, 01:08:10 PM
The UN gave them no wiggle room on this. By turning every Jewish home in eastern Jerusalem into the equivalent of an illegal outpost, the UN gave Israel the choice between total surrender and waiting for the UN to declare Tel Aviv illegally occupied, or holding the line and making clear to the UN that their filthy piece of paper means nothing. They made the right choice.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Pandaguineapig on February 06, 2017, 06:49:04 PM
The UN gave them no wiggle room on this. By turning every Jewish home in eastern Jerusalem into the equivalent of an illegal outpost, the UN gave Israel the choice between total surrender and waiting for the UN to declare Tel Aviv illegally occupied, or holding the line and making clear to the UN that their filthy piece of paper means nothing. They made the right choice.
The u.n resolution amounted to little more than an angry letter. There is nothing that the u.n could do to stop Israel from building settlements that would not get vetoed by the u.s


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on February 06, 2017, 08:51:08 PM
The UN gave them no wiggle room on this. By turning every Jewish home in eastern Jerusalem into the equivalent of an illegal outpost, the UN gave Israel the choice between total surrender and waiting for the UN to declare Tel Aviv illegally occupied, or holding the line and making clear to the UN that their filthy piece of paper means nothing. They made the right choice.
The u.n resolution amounted to little more than an angry letter. There is nothing that the u.n could do to stop Israel from building settlements that would not get vetoed by the u.s
Not only that, but the Knesset is playing into every tiresome anti-Semitic trope about "thieving Jews" by telling private Palestinians that they'll be making them offers they can't refuse.  Oh well, at least the excrement is unlikely to hit the rotating air circulation device while I'm still alive to see it.  That of course plays into why such shenanigans happen.  The long term impact of such actions are unlikely to cause trouble during the lifetimes of those voting to set Israel firmly upon the path of kleptocracy and in the short term, they likely will benefit politically.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Ronnie on February 07, 2017, 01:59:51 PM
The Knesset just passed the settlements bill: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-38888649


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 07, 2017, 04:00:14 PM
The Knesset just passed the settlements bill: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-38888649
Shame on all those involved. The "brave" ones on the right who know it's unconstitutional and against IHL but still legislated it so they could have a double profit - legislating and shouting at the Supreme Court when they void it. Shame on Bibi who didn't want this but his criminal investigations are making him very easy to maneuver by Bennet and by his own MKs. Shame on the courts who are going to void it instead of signalling to the right wing legislature that if they want to swim in sh**t they're not going to clean them up.

Anyway I speculate that Bibi's indictments are quite near (my peers who are criminal lawyers are dead certain of it), a wounded animal is always more dangerous so I expect some escalation with Hamas\PA very very soon.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on February 07, 2017, 05:28:02 PM
All talk, no action by the Israeli right, as always. This would be amazing theoretically, but the courts are going to declare it null and void anyway. Everything for PR, misleading voters, and blaming everything on the courts... and all that while the Knesset can simply decide to add new justices. If only the government wanted actual right-wing change instead of simply posturing while actually being chickens.

That said... why are Israeli courts so left-wing while right-wing governments have been in power since the early 2000s save for a few exceptions?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: ApatheticAustrian on February 07, 2017, 09:56:17 PM
"the government" doesn't want it...bibi himself seems to be opposed but benett enforces it afaik.

and i think, this is like in the US...right-wing judges are usually not "right-wing" but married to the constitution.

court packing would be the death of the democracy in israel, imho. it's the biggest difference to all other countries in the region.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 08, 2017, 12:25:27 AM
All talk, no action by the Israeli right, as always. This would be amazing theoretically, but the courts are going to declare it null and void anyway. Everything for PR, misleading voters, and blaming everything on the courts... and all that while the Knesset can simply decide to add new justices. If only the government wanted actual right-wing change instead of simply posturing while actually being chickens.

That said... why are Israeli courts so left-wing while right-wing governments have been in power since the early 2000s save for a few exceptions?
There are genuinely 2 left wing justices in the court, the court chief is actually right wing but as with most jurists the underlying ideology they all share is liberalism (more of the classic one).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on February 08, 2017, 01:44:44 AM
I'm supportive of this bill but its fairly obvious that it will be struck down. It's a genius political move by Bibi and Bennett, though. Pretending to feed the base, then bash the courts, and then do nothing.

I really don't get my fellow right-winger's hate for Israeli courts. I dislike many of their decisions but at the same time a strong judicial system is a must in any democratic government.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on February 08, 2017, 06:51:14 AM
There is nothing democratic about unelected activist judges overturning decisions made by elected politicians. The argument that ending Israeli courts' excessive powers would somehow end liberal democracy doesn't fly with me either, as I live in a country that is generally viewed as a liberal democracy yet courts here don't have the right to constitutional review. Politicians have the last say and that's what's really democratic.

Hnv1's answer is unconvincing to me, though I obviously believe most people with a law degree in Israel are left-leaning. Time to put a bunch of Itamar Ben-Gvirs on the court to restore the balance, I'd say. Courts overturning a law like this would increase support with the public to make the changes necessary (though Ben-Gvir remains unlikely, lol). If a more right-wing PM takes over after Netanyahu is gone and the right somehow gets a majority without the Kulanu cucks, it can be done.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 08, 2017, 09:41:18 AM
There is nothing democratic about unelected activist judges overturning decisions made by elected politicians. The argument that ending Israeli courts' excessive powers would somehow end liberal democracy doesn't fly with me either, as I live in a country that is generally viewed as a liberal democracy yet courts here don't have the right to constitutional review. Politicians have the last say and that's what's really democratic.

Hnv1's answer is unconvincing to me, though I obviously believe most people with a law degree in Israel are left-leaning. Time to put a bunch of Itamar Ben-Gvirs on the court to restore the balance, I'd say. Courts overturning a law like this would increase support with the public to make the changes necessary (though Ben-Gvir remains unlikely, lol). If a more right-wing PM takes over after Netanyahu is gone and the right somehow gets a majority without the Kulanu cucks, it can be done.
Well I attended what is considered the most elite law faculty in Israel (and the one most judges attended) and we weren't majority left (though the left and the right tended to drift to the extreme), considering that was the state here it's obviously more to the right in any other law faculty in the country (bar for Tel Aviv). Actually coming to think of it Smutric and Levin both attended my faculty. Perhaps people with law degrees are more left considering the general population but that's a natural phenomena everywhere with higher formal education. Historically the court was centre-right liberal and that didn't change much, as I said of this court there are two justices who are leftists and a similar number of right wingers the rest are bland centrists. The judiciary should not mirror the political landscape, it wasn't like that in the days of the Mapai junta and it shouldn't be like that now.

Comparing Israel and the Netherlands, apples and oranges. As to the mandate of elected representatives I never cared much for it (to the disgust of my friends to the left), I said it once and I'll say it again there's nothing intrinsically valuable in democracy


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on February 08, 2017, 09:57:34 AM
Well, it is perhaps not surprising, but I'm on the very other side of the political divide in the sense that I think the liberal component of liberal democracy is highly overvalued. Separation of powers way too often means channeling power away from the people. The efforts to restore real democracy in Hungary (despite the opinions of the NGOs, the EU, Angela Merkel, you name them) are a shining example to me. Both the West and Israel are in need of going down that road, but for Israel it is more urgent. However, a big downside to the Hungarian trajectory has been (even more) rampant corruption, and this, unfortunately, would probably be unavoidable in Israel as well. This development also too often hurts the working class and the middle class because oligarchs start herding power and wealth to an even higher degree, which is the last thing Israel needs. Society needs someone who is independent of these powers, someone not afraid to take a stand against them and, indeed, to destroy their oligopoly.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: ApatheticAustrian on February 08, 2017, 10:16:19 AM
i can respect....even while not sharing...the sentiment of literal, uncontrolled, direct democracy but hungary is as stacked in one direction as is turkey. seems like a bad example, imho


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on February 08, 2017, 10:28:10 AM
I agree that the situation in Hungary is far from ideal. It should definitely not be used as a blueprint but rather as an example of the direction governments should follow, in which the opinions of unelected establishment powers, including activist judges, crazy NGOs and foreign countries who don't understand their place, are taken into account to a much smaller degree.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on February 08, 2017, 11:20:53 AM
There is nothing democratic about unelected activist judges overturning decisions made by elected politicians. The argument that ending Israeli courts' excessive powers would somehow end liberal democracy doesn't fly with me either, as I live in a country that is generally viewed as a liberal democracy yet courts here don't have the right to constitutional review. Politicians have the last say and that's what's really democratic.

Hnv1's answer is unconvincing to me, though I obviously believe most people with a law degree in Israel are left-leaning. Time to put a bunch of Itamar Ben-Gvirs on the court to restore the balance, I'd say. Courts overturning a law like this would increase support with the public to make the changes necessary (though Ben-Gvir remains unlikely, lol). If a more right-wing PM takes over after Netanyahu is gone and the right somehow gets a majority without the Kulanu cucks, it can be done.

Though I disagree with your opinion about the judiciary system, I can respect it because it's well-thought and not pure populism.
However, I will say this- Itamar Ben Gvir is one of the few politicians I feel no hesitation calling fascists as ideologically bad as neo-nazis. He and his band of raving lunatics, such as the Lehava 'organization' (in '' because they're the closest thing to Jewish terrorists since the Kah movement and should be outlawed) are all disgusting.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: ApatheticAustrian on February 08, 2017, 11:23:48 AM
as far as i am concered, the charming lady holding the title of justice secretary is kind of fascist herself. but that's just me.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on February 08, 2017, 11:30:24 AM
I agree on Lehava, they're bad hombres. Saw a march of them through Yafo Street in Jerusalem and they said very bad things. I was shocked and felt ashamed to be Jewish in their presence. Though most were underaged kids parroting stuff they heard in the football stadium. I don't actually want Ben-Gvir on the court, it was hyperbole; my point was that not all judges have to be or should be liberals. I'd just like the judiciary to be more in sync politically with the government.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: ApatheticAustrian on February 08, 2017, 11:34:42 AM
let's be clear without hyperbole or name-calling:

is the separation of power a problem, an obstacle for democracy or something which just adapts itself if someone wins one or several elections?

if think this is a global "problem" aka a burning question.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 12, 2017, 06:04:58 AM
As it seems Livni will take a post as a UN USG, finally a respectable outlet for her. Hatnua will probably merge in some capacity with Labour following this move.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on February 13, 2017, 12:45:38 AM
There were, if I remember correctly, two police raids on two different municipalities in the past two weeks. This reminds me of the discussion we had here a few months ago- the municipal authorities in Israel are corrupt to the core. A drastic solution is needed.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on February 13, 2017, 10:21:28 AM
I didn't think I would ever say it again, but at this point I'm glad to have Netanyahu at the helm. Under the Trump presidency it remains important to be cautious in taking any steps that would limit the number of options in the future. Annexing area C in its entirety would be the height of foolishness, and while I align ideologically with some of the people on the Likud right, they are manifestly unfit to lead the country. Perhaps I'm becoming more of a moderate, but I think Netanyahu is handling the relationship with the Trump administration the right way.

Though this doesn't change any of my other criticisms of Netanyahu and Likud when it comes to domestic issues (oligopolies, economy, cost of living, judicial overreach, NGOs, "social issues", corruption etc.). I also don't want to know what Netanyahu will do in a new election campaign...


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on February 13, 2017, 10:29:59 AM
I didn't think I would ever say it again, but at this point I'm glad to have Netanyahu at the helm. Under the Trump presidency it remains important to be cautious in taking any steps that would limit the number of options in the future. Annexing area C in its entirety would be the height of foolishness, and while I align ideologically with some of the people on the Likud right, they are manifestly unfit to lead the country. Perhaps I'm becoming more of a moderate, but I think Netanyahu is handling the relationship with the Trump administration the right way.

I'd agree a few months ago, but right now, Netanyahu is really unhinged, especially in foreign policy, because of his panic caused by the corruption allegations. I think he made an enemy of about three harmless countries including Mexico. But so far, even with Netanyahu's frantic leadership, I'm not scared of the Trump administration, there are way too many people (e.g., Kushner) who to prevent drastic steps against Israel.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on February 13, 2017, 10:35:55 AM
True, his wall tweet was a mistake, especially in a time when Mexico slowly starts to become more friendly to Israel. I get where it's coming from and even appreciate the way in which he "plays" Trump, who is really receptive to this sort of thing, but it was a mistake. Israel needs to keep its options open and not increase its dependency on the U.S. Trump may be gone four years from now, while the consequences of the Israeli government's policies in both the domestic and the international realm will live on.

I still wouldn't call Netanyahu unhinged, though that may absolutely change in a new election campaign (G-d forbid). But for now, I think Netanyahu may be the best in handling Israeli foreign policy. I don't rely on the Trump administration's positive attitude toward Israel, because ultimately the future lies in the hands of the Israeli political leadership (which is a pretty scary thought, because my trust in them is very low).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 16, 2017, 04:37:57 PM
Yawn on the trump 2 states comment, I take his words with nothing but salt.

Back to party politics. All parties like JH/Likud/Labour/Meretz are getting ready for an election.
Some new groups in Likud gained some attention like the Liberals and the new Likudniks. Both plan on getting their men in. Herzog is recruiting a bundle of bland ex-generals to have a "right" looking list. Galon wants open primaries in Meretz, while Gilon and his gilonjugend are suddenly again after they got enough people in as convention delegates.

Elections coming this fall. Stay tuned


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Vosem on February 16, 2017, 04:47:11 PM
Elections coming this fall. Stay tuned

Is this for certain? What groups are going to bring down the government? Or will Netanyahu call snap elections? Is he even likely to recontest?

EDIT: This is a semi-random question, but I don't see Tzipi Livni being offered as a choice for the Labor Party leadership. Is she likely to break off and run herself, maintain the Zionist Union alliance, or merge her party into Labor? Or leave politics? I was under the impression that the long-term goal of the formation of Zionist Union was so that Livni could maneuver herself into eventually becoming Labor party leader and a prime ministerial candidate once again. Sure, Livni's a tired has-been, but Amir Peretz seems like even more of a tired has-been, and all the polls include him as leadership potential. Why not Livni?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on February 16, 2017, 04:58:13 PM
Yawn on the trump 2 states comment, I take his words with nothing but salt.

Back to party politics. All parties like JH/Likud/Labour/Meretz are getting ready for an election.
Some new groups in Likud gained some attention like the Liberals and the new Likudniks. Both plan on getting their men in. Herzog is recruiting a bundle of bland ex-generals to have a "right" looking list. Galon wants open primaries in Meretz, while Gilon and his gilonjugend are suddenly again after they got enough people in as convention delegates.

Elections coming this fall. Stay tuned

Do you think that Galon will be successful in her attempt? If not, I suspect Meretz is doomed. Galon might resign because of that, as she's putting everything on it.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 16, 2017, 04:59:42 PM
Elections coming this fall. Stay tuned

Is this for certain? What groups are going to bring down the government? Or will Netanyahu call snap elections? Is he even likely to recontest?
Nothing is certain, but if all sides are getting ready for an election and diverting funds to prepare the reasonable thing to conclude is their estimation must be grounded. Bibi's internal political weakness is easy to spot, there's only so much he can do to please all his partners at once. I expect it to be like WW1 fast and random cause will make it all tumble


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 16, 2017, 05:05:06 PM
Yawn on the trump 2 states comment, I take his words with nothing but salt.

Back to party politics. All parties like JH/Likud/Labour/Meretz are getting ready for an election.
Some new groups in Likud gained some attention like the Liberals and the new Likudniks. Both plan on getting their men in. Herzog is recruiting a bundle of bland ex-generals to have a "right" looking list. Galon wants open primaries in Meretz, while Gilon and his gilonjugend are suddenly again after they got enough people in as convention delegates.

Elections coming this fall. Stay tuned

Do you think that Galon will be successful in her attempt? If not, I suspect Meretz is doomed. Galon might resign because of that, as she's putting everything on it.
Probably not, too many of delegates wouldn't want to lose their power but let's wait there's a call for a snap vote in May. If that fails in that case we might see a snap election for a new convention. If that fails I honestly don't see how the party could carry on as a whole, the internal institutions are dysfunctional due to internal strife for almost a year and a half now.

If she fails/Gilon gains the leadership I will resign as a delegate and leave the party


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on February 16, 2017, 05:42:42 PM
Yawn on the trump 2 states comment, I take his words with nothing but salt.

Back to party politics. All parties like JH/Likud/Labour/Meretz are getting ready for an election.
Some new groups in Likud gained some attention like the Liberals and the new Likudniks. Both plan on getting their men in. Herzog is recruiting a bundle of bland ex-generals to have a "right" looking list. Galon wants open primaries in Meretz, while Gilon and his gilonjugend are suddenly again after they got enough people in as convention delegates.

Elections coming this fall. Stay tuned

Do you think that Galon will be successful in her attempt? If not, I suspect Meretz is doomed. Galon might resign because of that, as she's putting everything on it.
Probably not, too many of delegates wouldn't want to lose their power but let's wait there's a call for a snap vote in May. If that fails in that case we might see a snap election for a new convention. If that fails I honestly don't see how the party could carry on as a whole, the internal institutions are dysfunctional due to internal strife for almost a year and a half now.

If she fails/Gilon gains the leadership I will resign as a delegate and leave the party

Out of interest, in that case, who would you vote for, or where would you go politically?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 17, 2017, 02:57:27 AM
Yawn on the trump 2 states comment, I take his words with nothing but salt.

Back to party politics. All parties like JH/Likud/Labour/Meretz are getting ready for an election.
Some new groups in Likud gained some attention like the Liberals and the new Likudniks. Both plan on getting their men in. Herzog is recruiting a bundle of bland ex-generals to have a "right" looking list. Galon wants open primaries in Meretz, while Gilon and his gilonjugend are suddenly again after they got enough people in as convention delegates.

Elections coming this fall. Stay tuned

Do you think that Galon will be successful in her attempt? If not, I suspect Meretz is doomed. Galon might resign because of that, as she's putting everything on it.
Probably not, too many of delegates wouldn't want to lose their power but let's wait there's a call for a snap vote in May. If that fails in that case we might see a snap election for a new convention. If that fails I honestly don't see how the party could carry on as a whole, the internal institutions are dysfunctional due to internal strife for almost a year and a half now.

If she fails/Gilon gains the leadership I will resign as a delegate and leave the party

Out of interest, in that case, who would you vote for, or where would you go politically?
Hard to tell, I'll either vote JAL/Labour, there's no other viable alternative


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on February 22, 2017, 04:54:12 PM
So Ayelet Shaked appointed some right-wingers to the Supreme Court today.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 23, 2017, 03:59:35 AM
So Ayelet Shaked appointed some right-wingers to the Supreme Court today.
More complicated than it appears, I will write post in it tomorrow(as I also appeared before two of them). The change is generally cosmetic


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 23, 2017, 02:16:04 PM
So Ayelet Shaked appointed some right-wingers to the Supreme Court today.

*warning a boring post on the judiciary, you may avoid this post*

well I would say it may be headlined in the media but false. Shaked played a smart negotiation but bottom line of the 4 only justice Mintz is a right winger. The two right wingers of her choice Sapir and Khan were barred by the rest of the committee (she probably used them to get in a stronger position anyway).
justice Vilner (who I had the privilege to appear before) is religious but she's a mild conservative not all that different than those on the court now. Shaked wanted Winograd of Jerusalem but had to settle for her. justice Elron (who I appeared before but can't say it was a privilege) was boosted by Kachlon, doesn't strike me as all that right at all. The last one Kara is a christian from Jaffa.

If the court moved to the right it's by an inch, and it was moving to the right anyway since 2008.

Shaked did a strategic mistake though, she created bad blood with justice Hayot who is going to be the chief justice for the next 8 years (and also one of the courts only true leftists). Payback will come in various forms. 


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on February 27, 2017, 02:55:31 PM
Thanks for clearing that up, Hnv. I guess Arutz 7 were shilling for BY again.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 28, 2017, 09:07:05 AM
Kachlon is the first to get hit, Hayot made noises of canceling his 3rd home taxation bill today due to a flawed legislation procedure. (she sat with the two right wing justices on this which is interesting so I think he managed to piss off more than just her)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on March 02, 2017, 03:04:52 PM
So it seems like despite strongly denying, Eitan Cabel and Shelly Yachimovich made a political deal when she decided to run for Chair of the Israeli General Worker's Organization. Discovered in a voice recording of Cabel, where he pretty much destroyed his political career by admitting that he doesn't give a f*** (his words, kinda) about anything other than his own personal gain.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 03, 2017, 07:54:41 AM
Like Cabel had any political future to begin with...

Omer bar lev is also running for Labour leadership, this is getting ridiculous


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 04, 2017, 09:57:00 AM
Avi Dichter saying he's going to run against Bibi in the next Likud primaries.
Ya'Alon saying he's forming a new party...political savvy is not a good description of him.
Amiram Levin (another ex general) is running to head Labour, yes another one


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on March 04, 2017, 10:06:55 AM
Avi Dichter saying he's going to run against Bibi in the next Likud primaries.
Ya'Alon saying he's forming a new party...political savvy is not a good description of him.
Amiram Levin (another ex general) is running to head Labour, yes another one

What's the current list of Labour candidates?
Peretz, Margalit, Herzog, Bar Lev, Gabay, Amiram Levin? I guess Cabel won't run after the recordings.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 04, 2017, 01:28:36 PM
Avi Dichter saying he's going to run against Bibi in the next Likud primaries.
Ya'Alon saying he's forming a new party...political savvy is not a good description of him.
Amiram Levin (another ex general) is running to head Labour, yes another one

What's the current list of Labour candidates?
Peretz, Margalit, Herzog, Bar Lev, Gabay, Amiram Levin? I guess Cabel won't run after the recordings.
Add Eldad Yaniv, Yom Tov Samia, and the latest prof. Avner Ben Zaken (who is a self pretentious git and a mediocre scholar)

So more pretenders than expected seats.

Currently if I had to rank them by preference then: Margalit, Levin, Bar Lev, Gabay, Samia, Herzog, Yaniv, Ben Zaken, Peretz.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on March 04, 2017, 01:49:08 PM
Avi Dichter saying he's going to run against Bibi in the next Likud primaries.
Ya'Alon saying he's forming a new party...political savvy is not a good description of him.
Amiram Levin (another ex general) is running to head Labour, yes another one

What's the current list of Labour candidates?
Peretz, Margalit, Herzog, Bar Lev, Gabay, Amiram Levin? I guess Cabel won't run after the recordings.
Add Eldad Yaniv, Yom Tov Samia, and the latest prof. Avner Ben Zaken (who is a self pretentious git and a mediocre scholar)

So more pretenders than expected seats.

Currently if I had to rank them by preference then: Margalit, Levin, Bar Lev, Gabay, Samia, Herzog, Yaniv, Ben Zaken, Peretz.

Mine is probably: Margalit, Gabay, Levin, Bar Lev, Samia, Yaniv, Peretz, Herzog and Ben Zaken.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 04, 2017, 05:09:40 PM
Ya'alon's new party has the potential to hurt YA and Kulanu more than Likud.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on March 05, 2017, 12:44:55 AM
Ya'alon's new party has the potential to hurt YA and Kulanu more than Likud.
Yeah, these "brave moderate hero!!!1111" parties almost never do any great harm to the right wing. Though, with that said, without Kulanu Netanyahu wouldn't have enough to form a right wing coalition.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Santander on March 05, 2017, 11:44:46 AM
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.775331

Marijuana decriminalized. I don't really follow Israeli domestic politics but it's not really surprising to me, considering the amount of relatively open marijuana use I saw there.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on March 05, 2017, 12:12:16 PM
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.775331

Marijuana decriminalized. I don't really follow Israeli domestic politics but it's not really surprising to me, considering the amount of relatively open marijuana use I saw there.
Yeah, it's been moving in that direction for quite long. The majority of Israelis seem to be moderately socially liberal, so it's probably a concession to satisfy them without angering the religious parties.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 05, 2017, 03:06:40 PM
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.775331

Marijuana decriminalized. I don't really follow Israeli domestic politics but it's not really surprising to me, considering the amount of relatively open marijuana use I saw there.
Yeah, it's been moving in that direction for quite long. The majority of Israelis seem to be moderately socially liberal, so it's probably a concession to satisfy them without angering the religious parties.
Considering buying weed anywhere outside of tel aviv is usually from a bloke with a black kippah and a Shas look I doubt they care that much...
The true opponents are the we know better than you what's right brigade, usually YA\JH voters


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on March 05, 2017, 10:40:44 PM
Ya'alon's new party has the potential to hurt YA and Kulanu more than Likud.
Yeah, these "brave moderate hero!!!1111" parties almost never do any great harm to the right wing. Though, with that said, without Kulanu Netanyahu wouldn't have enough to form a right wing coalition.

Ya'alon isn't moderate at all. He's to the right of Netanyahu. How could he possibly be talking about an alliance with Yesh Atid?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 06, 2017, 07:33:49 AM
Ya'alon's new party has the potential to hurt YA and Kulanu more than Likud.
Yeah, these "brave moderate hero!!!1111" parties almost never do any great harm to the right wing. Though, with that said, without Kulanu Netanyahu wouldn't have enough to form a right wing coalition.

Ya'alon isn't moderate at all. He's to the right of Netanyahu. How could he possibly be talking about an alliance with Yesh Atid?
Like that matters in Israel...Benny Begin and Rivlin are "moderate" though stand to the fringe of the right. political alliance here stand on other grounds than ideological


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 06, 2017, 08:24:46 AM
Rivlin is only "to the right of Netanyahu" if you view a one-state solution as inherently more right-wing than a two-state solution, which is pretty far-fetched. Surely someone "to the fringe of the right" would not cancel a concert because the artist had triggered people on the left by dropping a truth bomb, and surely someone "to the fringe of the right" would pardon Elor Azaria. Rivlin can hardly be considered to be right-wing at all. I also have no idea how Ya'alon could be considered to be to the right of Netanyahu. But yes, it is undoubtedly true that political alliances in Israel (much like in many other countries), and within the Likud in particular, are based more on personal strategic alliances than on ideological grounds.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 06, 2017, 09:37:52 AM
Rivlin is only "to the right of Netanyahu" if you view a one-state solution as inherently more right-wing than a two-state solution, which is pretty far-fetched. Surely someone "to the fringe of the right" would not cancel a concert because the artist had triggered people on the left by dropping a truth bomb, and surely someone "to the fringe of the right" would pardon Elor Azaria. Rivlin can hardly be considered to be right-wing at all. I also have no idea how Ya'alon could be considered to be to the right of Netanyahu. But yes, it is undoubtedly true that political alliances in Israel (much like in many other countries), and within the Likud in particular, are based more on personal strategic alliances than on ideological grounds.
The common perspective views the far right and the far left as going to a one state solution (with different approach). As political standings are situated on several dimensions it is futile to speak of more to the left or more the right as a strict and literal truth. But if i must then in the shallow way of talking they are more to the right.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 16, 2017, 12:36:46 PM
Meretz convention rejected Galon's proposal for open primaries.  New leadership elections announced Avalon vs Gilon.

Derii has been making weird break the government noises, I wonder if he's just the messenger...

Ya'Alon to start a new party, Levi-Aboksis to start a new party, Feiglin's new party will hold open primaries


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on March 18, 2017, 05:28:05 AM
Meretz convention rejected Galon's proposal for open primaries.  New leadership elections announced Avalon vs Gilon.

Derii has been making weird break the government noises, I wonder if he's just the messenger...

Ya'Alon to start a new party, Levi-Aboksis to start a new party, Feiglin's new party will hold open primaries

Looks like the election is coming soon. Any chance Levi-Aboksis changes her mind and joins Ya'Alon or something? We don't need yet another party, and she'll never pass the mark anyway. She's just not that great of a politician, just very principled.
Also, Avalon? Did you mean Galon or did I miss an awful lot in my school's annual trip?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 18, 2017, 07:54:16 AM
Meretz convention rejected Galon's proposal for open primaries.  New leadership elections announced Avalon vs Gilon.

Derii has been making weird break the government noises, I wonder if he's just the messenger...

Ya'Alon to start a new party, Levi-Aboksis to start a new party, Feiglin's new party will hold open primaries

Looks like the election is coming soon. Any chance Levi-Aboksis changes her mind and joins Ya'Alon or something? We don't need yet another party, and she'll never pass the mark anyway. She's just not that great of a politician, just very principled.
Also, Avalon? Did you mean Galon or did I miss an awful lot in my school's annual trip?
Sorry, of course Galon.
As the polls look dismal for Ya'alon he may try to recruit her. But her electoral chances are better than his as I see it.

Jewish Home to have leadership primaries soon as well. Bennet vs. 2 nobody conservative rabbis


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on March 18, 2017, 01:03:49 PM
According to Netanyahu lackey David Bitan, he has rescinded his agreements with Kahlon about the new Public Broadcasting Corporation, and it will not be allowed to start. A huge shame, since it looks like a fresh wind and a good replacement for the awful and dusty IBA.
This might be what will trigger the elections. I wonder if any indictment can be fielded against Netanyahu before it becomes much harder to do.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on March 18, 2017, 02:06:05 PM
Herzog is making noises of trying to form an alternative government. For this feat to succeed, he'll need Yesh Atid, Kahlon, the Haredi Parties and Meretz. In other words, impossible.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 18, 2017, 02:45:13 PM
You are off the mark, Likud has been trying to pick fights with junior partners for weeks now. This is Bibi's strategy, he does not want an indictment served.

If Lapid and Kachlon had any wits to them they would have let Herzog form a government for several months to see Bibi out, but there's no chance Isra-Trump Lapid will agree


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on March 18, 2017, 03:40:52 PM
How does picking fights prevent an indictment?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 19, 2017, 01:03:05 AM
How does picking fights prevent an indictment?
No Indictment will be served if there's an election going on, and a resounding victory pressures the prosecution not to serve it.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on March 19, 2017, 01:33:55 AM
You are off the mark, Likud has been trying to pick fights with junior partners for weeks now. This is Bibi's strategy, he does not want an indictment served.

If Lapid and Kachlon had any wits to them they would have let Herzog form a government for several months to see Bibi out, but there's no chance Isra-Trump Lapid will agree

Yeah, I kept getting these crazy news updates whenever I  could check my phone, but this current thing seems to be the most explicit.

Meanwhile, Transportation Secretary Israel Katz (who already clashed with Bibi on the Shabbat train maintenance works) becomes the first Likud minister to speak up against Netanyahu, saying that going to elections because of the Broadcasting Corporation is mad.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 19, 2017, 02:37:09 AM
You are off the mark, Likud has been trying to pick fights with junior partners for weeks now. This is Bibi's strategy, he does not want an indictment served.

If Lapid and Kachlon had any wits to them they would have let Herzog form a government for several months to see Bibi out, but there's no chance Isra-Trump Lapid will agree

Yeah, I kept getting these crazy news updates whenever I  could check my phone, but this current thing seems to be the most explicit.

Meanwhile, Transportation Secretary Israel Katz (who already clashed with Bibi on the Shabbat train maintenance works) becomes the first Likud minister to speak up against Netanyahu, saying that going to elections because of the Broadcasting Corporation is mad.
He's actually quite clever, Bibi is as we speak on a plane to the PRC, the first things his staffes are going to see when off the plane would be quite alarming...

The trio of Herzog, Kachlon, Rivlin will do everything in their power to try form an alternative government, even a minority one


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 19, 2017, 05:43:30 AM
Both Bennet ad Lieberman oppose an early election. Bibi is in quite a pickle


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on March 19, 2017, 06:24:38 AM
Both Bennet ad Lieberman oppose an early election. Bibi is in quite a pickle
Bennet? Odd. Why would he not want an election where he's likely to gain?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 19, 2017, 06:50:47 AM
Both Bennet ad Lieberman oppose an early election. Bibi is in quite a pickle
Bennet? Odd. Why would he not want an election where he's likely to gain?
He and Shaked are sitting in good positions and want to have more impact (especially with 2 more nominations for the supreme court next year), and he would rather go to an election from the opposition on some right wing platform not the media.
Liberman wants more time as MoD to consolidate is position as elder statesman.

question is what will they do if Bibi seems determined to pull the trigger, will they support a Kachlon temporary government?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on March 19, 2017, 07:32:33 AM
Both Bennet ad Lieberman oppose an early election. Bibi is in quite a pickle
Bennet? Odd. Why would he not want an election where he's likely to gain?
He and Shaked are sitting in good positions and want to have more impact (especially with 2 more nominations for the supreme court next year), and he would rather go to an election from the opposition on some right wing platform not the media.
Liberman wants more time as MoD to consolidate is position as elder statesman.

question is what will they do if Bibi seems determined to pull the trigger, will they support a Kachlon temporary government?

I think Lapid will really be the determining factor here. I don't see Bennet and most of the Labour MKs ever sitting in the same government, while Lapid has been rescinding his anti-Haredi rhetoric. The problem is that he probably wants an election while the momentum is with him.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 19, 2017, 11:53:33 AM
Both Bennet ad Lieberman oppose an early election. Bibi is in quite a pickle
Bennet? Odd. Why would he not want an election where he's likely to gain?
He and Shaked are sitting in good positions and want to have more impact (especially with 2 more nominations for the supreme court next year), and he would rather go to an election from the opposition on some right wing platform not the media.
Liberman wants more time as MoD to consolidate is position as elder statesman.

question is what will they do if Bibi seems determined to pull the trigger, will they support a Kachlon temporary government?

I think Lapid will really be the determining factor here. I don't see Bennet and most of the Labour MKs ever sitting in the same government, while Lapid has been rescinding his anti-Haredi rhetoric. The problem is that he probably wants an election while the momentum is with him.
Also Peretz and other Labour contenders might thwart it...stupid people who can't think strategically. Peretz and Lapid with their massive bloated ego especially


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on March 19, 2017, 01:56:12 PM
Both Bennet ad Lieberman oppose an early election. Bibi is in quite a pickle
Bennet? Odd. Why would he not want an election where he's likely to gain?
He and Shaked are sitting in good positions and want to have more impact (especially with 2 more nominations for the supreme court next year), and he would rather go to an election from the opposition on some right wing platform not the media.
Liberman wants more time as MoD to consolidate is position as elder statesman.

question is what will they do if Bibi seems determined to pull the trigger, will they support a Kachlon temporary government?

I think Lapid will really be the determining factor here. I don't see Bennet and most of the Labour MKs ever sitting in the same government, while Lapid has been rescinding his anti-Haredi rhetoric. The problem is that he probably wants an election while the momentum is with him.
Also Peretz and other Labour contenders might thwart it...stupid people who can't think strategically. Peretz and Lapid with their massive bloated ego especially

Omer Bar Lev also tweeted his opposition to going for an alternative government. It's funny because he might not even survive as an MK if an election is held now.
Also, Erel Margalit tweeted that Labour must elect a leader in the next 30 days and prepare for elections. It seems to contradict his previous agenda.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 27, 2017, 12:27:19 PM
It would be good for the ideological direction of Likud to be out of the government for a while, but it would probably not be good for Israel to have another party take over control, even if I'm obviously very critical of Likud's record on many issues (most importantly the economy/oligopolies/costs of living/poverty). I also don't believe Lapid will truly win an election. People will eventually turn out for Netanyahu; 2015 all over again.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 03, 2017, 06:19:17 AM
Former Education and Interior Minister and Bibi rival Gideon Sa'ar will announce his return to politics this evening.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Vosem on April 03, 2017, 02:22:01 PM
So is an election definitely happening this year? Things seem to have quieted down.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 03, 2017, 02:26:06 PM
So is an election definitely happening this year? Things seem to have quieted down.

Probably not because of the broadcasting corporation- Kachlon bent and is currently allowing our corrupt Prime Minister to destroy Israeli democracy.
The investigations against Netanyahu continue but are going slower than expected, so to me it looks like it might slow to a halt, but if the investigations do escalate I see Netanyahu going mad over some issue again just to cause elections, so at this point, who knows?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on April 04, 2017, 12:43:45 PM
So is an election definitely happening this year? Things seem to have quieted down.
I'll put my money on this autumn. Or the very least early 2018


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 04, 2017, 12:48:11 PM
By the way, Labour leadership elections are officially in 4th of July. According to the bot in the phone poll I got today, recent polling indicates that Peretz and Gabay are leading.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on April 06, 2017, 10:11:28 AM
Poll of Labour's cadre:
Gabay 22%
Peretz 21%
Margalit 10%
Bar Lev 10%
Herzog 7% (lol)
Undecided 29%

Second round
Gabay 55%
Peretz 45%

Shame on margalit but at least Peretz misses out



Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 06, 2017, 11:01:35 AM
Poll of Labour's cadre:
Gabay 22%
Peretz 21%
Margalit 10%
Bar Lev 10%
Herzog 7% (lol)
Undecided 29%

Second round
Gabay 55%
Peretz 45%

Shame on margalit but at least Peretz misses out



I think that this one was requested by Gabay, since it has him in the runoff. Another one I got yesterday was probably from Margalit, since it had him in the runoff.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on April 06, 2017, 12:13:46 PM
The wishful thinking and borderline messianic obsession with wanting a new election in this thread is a bit amusing to me.

DavidB is, thankfully, right that Bibi would likely win the next election if it was called soon. However, it would hurt a good amount of his coalition partners.

Yisrael Beiteinu hasn't really proved its worth yet in the government (though, they have been more mild and consistent then I thought they would be at this point).

Kulanu would suffer massive losses if an election is called. Kahlon is not a good party leader and should really come home to Likud. Michael Oren and Yoav Galant were rumored to want to run in Likud primaries I remember hearing a few months ago. is this still true?

The Jewish Home opposes going to elections for the reasons outlined by Hnv1. I also don't think they would do as good as people think they would. They are just as ideologically bland and fake as Likud, the ZU and Yesh Atid, imo.

Also, none of Likud's opponents are in a position to win. Yair Lapid and Yesh Atid may have more public support but what coalition would they be able to form? religious parties will likely never sit w/ him.

ZU continues to be a joke and will continue to be so if Herzog stays on as leader.

a Ya'alon led party would be great for sh*ts an giggles but I don't think it would go very far.



Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on April 06, 2017, 02:19:21 PM
Sorry to be a pain, but what factions/ideologies/positions etc. do the labour candidates represent?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 06, 2017, 02:55:17 PM
The wishful thinking and borderline messianic obsession with wanting a new election in this thread is a bit amusing to me.

DavidB is, thankfully, right that Bibi would likely win the next election if it was called soon. However, it would hurt a good amount of his coalition partners.

Yisrael Beiteinu hasn't really proved its worth yet in the government (though, they have been more mild and consistent then I thought they would be at this point).

Kulanu would suffer massive losses if an election is called. Kahlon is not a good party leader and should really come home to Likud. Michael Oren and Yoav Galant were rumored to want to run in Likud primaries I remember hearing a few months ago. is this still true?

The Jewish Home opposes going to elections for the reasons outlined by Hnv1. I also don't think they would do as good as people think they would. They are just as ideologically bland and fake as Likud, the ZU and Yesh Atid, imo.

Also, none of Likud's opponents are in a position to win. Yair Lapid and Yesh Atid may have more public support but what coalition would they be able to form? religious parties will likely never sit w/ him.

ZU continues to be a joke and will continue to be so if Herzog stays on as leader.

a Ya'alon led party would be great for sh*ts an giggles but I don't think it would go very far.



To be honest, I'd prefer an alternative government over an election. But I'm also feeling immense fear for Israeli democracy under the unstable, paranoid, corrupt, power-hungry Netanyahu of 2017, so yes, I really want him replaced by an election or indiction.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on April 07, 2017, 02:25:43 AM
Sorry to be a pain, but what factions/ideologies/positions etc. do the labour candidates represent?
The differences are sometimes cosmetic rather than genuine, it's really a personality contest and not so much a battle of factions.
Peretz - Socialist (or more left wing economically) also dovish
Gabay - bland centrist for all I could detect, talking about the personal traits of leadership not positions
Bar Lev - bland ex general with some peace plans, appeals to old voters
Margalit - New Labour, as Blairite as one could get
Herzog - does he even know?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 07, 2017, 07:27:12 AM
Amir Peretz is currently running a smear campaign against Avi Gabay, attacking the poll that had him leading (invited by Gabay, admittedly) as fake and sending Labour members a video where journalists are asking Gabay tough questions (without showing his answers, of course).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on April 07, 2017, 09:21:24 AM
At this point Likud are actually surprisingly comparable to a number of leading "conservative" parties in Central and Eastern Europe. The populist tone, the stirring up of meaningless controversies that make ordinary people outraged yet have no ramifications for policy and distract from real problems, the status-quo oriented policies mainly or solely aimed at keeping the party leader(s) in power, the blatant corruption. Likud, PiS, GERB, HDZ... there are differences, but also a lot of similarities. It reflects poor on Israeli politics that this party remains the least bad option to lead a government, though if YA could work together with the religious right without Likud that would be an interesting option too (but unrealistic).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: ApatheticAustrian on April 07, 2017, 09:28:21 AM
likud is going to lead as long as the israeli people want a right-wing government, imho, there couldn't be a conservative to right alliance at all without likud as "melting pot".

the more "centrish" parties and the "identity politics" parties - religious and secular - would not be able to find a working compromise, imho.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on April 20, 2017, 06:42:34 AM
Primaries:
JH primaries looking quite calm but I suspect Bennet will take around 70-75% of the votes this time instead 90+.

Labour primaries: Margalit launched his campaign (which looks best by my books), and ol'Peretz started a smear campaign against Gabbay. Bar Lev will probably drop out later to support Gabbay. Selectorate was reduced to 48K after thousands of faux members Peretz registered were wiped out.

Politics:
Supreme Court authorized Tel Aviv's city council by-law allowing some grocery stores to open on Saturdays, Deri'i who dragged his feet on the matter is "furious" and Shas+UTJ+JH are demanding a law to reverse the ruling and "defend the Sabbath". An excellent mine to blow up the coalition. Only Lieberman voiced his support of the ruling and Kachlon definitely won't fight over this topic. In addition, unlike last time no one else could form a government as neither Herzog or Lapid could agree to give the religious parties what they want. Bibi Must be delighted.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 20, 2017, 08:30:04 AM
Primaries:
JH primaries looking quite calm but I suspect Bennet will take around 70-75% of the votes this time instead 90+.

Labour primaries: Margalit launched his campaign (which looks best by my books), and ol'Peretz started a smear campaign against Gabbay. Bar Lev will probably drop out later to support Gabbay. Selectorate was reduced to 48K after thousands of faux members Peretz registered were wiped out.

Politics:
Supreme Court authorized Tel Aviv's city council by-law allowing some grocery stores to open on Saturdays, Deri'i who dragged his feet on the matter is "furious" and Shas+UTJ+JH are demanding a law to reverse the ruling and "defend the Sabbath". An excellent mine to blow up the coalition. Only Lieberman voiced his support of the ruling and Kachlon definitely won't fight over this topic. In addition, unlike last time no one else could form a government as neither Herzog or Lapid could agree to give the religious parties what they want. Bibi Must be delighted.

Wow, Peretz needs to be disqualified. Why aren't the others running a campaign against him to spread this deed of his to public knowledge?
Also, I seriously despise these Haredi parties and every single one of their members.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on April 20, 2017, 12:12:28 PM
Primaries:
JH primaries looking quite calm but I suspect Bennet will take around 70-75% of the votes this time instead 90+.

Labour primaries: Margalit launched his campaign (which looks best by my books), and ol'Peretz started a smear campaign against Gabbay. Bar Lev will probably drop out later to support Gabbay. Selectorate was reduced to 48K after thousands of faux members Peretz registered were wiped out.

Politics:
Supreme Court authorized Tel Aviv's city council by-law allowing some grocery stores to open on Saturdays, Deri'i who dragged his feet on the matter is "furious" and Shas+UTJ+JH are demanding a law to reverse the ruling and "defend the Sabbath". An excellent mine to blow up the coalition. Only Lieberman voiced his support of the ruling and Kachlon definitely won't fight over this topic. In addition, unlike last time no one else could form a government as neither Herzog or Lapid could agree to give the religious parties what they want. Bibi Must be delighted.

Wow, Peretz needs to be disqualified. Why aren't the others running a campaign against him to spread this deed of his to public knowledge?
Also, I seriously despise these Haredi parties and every single one of their members.
Because he's Sephardi and it's apparently racist to say he's a scumbag politico.
He now has the endorsement of 3 MKs with Bar, Shmuli, and Suede.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on April 22, 2017, 02:01:13 PM
Poll for GE
Likud - 28
YA - 24
JAL - 13
ZU - 12
JH - 10
Kulano - 7
Shas - 7
UTJ - 7
Liberman - 6
Meretz  6
Ya'alon - doesn't make the cut

Labour primaries polll (margin of error for those should be massive) was done for the Bar Lev campaign:
Peretz - 28%
Gabay - 19%
Bar Lev- 19%
Herzog - 16%
Margalit - 14%

I somehow doubt this figures for Herzog and Bar Lev...


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: ApatheticAustrian on April 24, 2017, 03:47:53 PM
flawless moderates doing good as always during election desert.



Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on April 27, 2017, 11:34:27 AM
The BY primary takes place today. Party leader Naftali Bennett should be safe. Voting started at 2PM at various polling stations across the country and will go on until 10. Results are supposed to come in at about 11, since voting takes place electronically. Turnout is over 25% already. Two candidates are trying to take on Bennett: Rabbi Yitzhak Zagha and Yonatan Branski, the former head of the religious army unit Nahal Haredi; both appear to be to Bennett's right.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 27, 2017, 11:53:50 AM
The BY primary takes place today. Party leader Naftali Bennett should be safe. Voting started at 2PM at various polling stations across the country and will go on until 10. Results are supposed to come in at about 11, since voting takes place electronically. Turnout is over 25% already. Two candidates are trying to take on Bennett: Rabbi Yitzhak Zagha and Yonatan Branski, the former head of the religious army unit Nahal Haredi; both appear to be to Bennett's right.

I guess low turnout isn't really good for Bennett, since I assume the insurgent candidates have a generally more driven base, but Bennett is still very much safe.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on April 27, 2017, 03:08:06 PM
The BY primary takes place today. Party leader Naftali Bennett should be safe. Voting started at 2PM at various polling stations across the country and will go on until 10. Results are supposed to come in at about 11, since voting takes place electronically. Turnout is over 25% already. Two candidates are trying to take on Bennett: Rabbi Yitzhak Zagha and Yonatan Branski, the former head of the religious army unit Nahal Haredi; both appear to be to Bennett's right.
Both running on a lets-get-the-JH-to-become-more-religious again platform. I think Bennet feels like they could really stretch him as he's been touring the country for an otherwise boring election.

Labour leadership cadre confirmed:
Current leader Herzog (heading for a humiliating defeat)
Former leader MK Peretz (current front runner, socialist,  and a knob)
Former minister Avi Gabbay (strong contender, centrist)
MK Arel Margalit (running a leftist platform, most qualified as I see it)
MK Bar Lev (bland ex-general)
MG Amiram Levin (bland leftier ex-general)
Prof. Avner Ben Zaken (former Meretz member, mediocre academic and identity politics supporter)
Dina Dayan (orthodox Jew yet a feminist, probably going for name recognition before the next list election)
Hod Krovi (anonymous party member, supporter of the cooperative movement)

Avi Gabbay surprisingly announced he supports Shelly in the workers federation election hoping to lure some of her young "we don't get economics" voters to shift to him from Peretz. Cabel stayed out as well as Shaffir.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on April 27, 2017, 03:38:04 PM
Bennett allegedly won it, 80.3% with over 50% turnout. Branski got 12.2%.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on April 27, 2017, 03:50:54 PM
Final JH primary results:

30,734 party members.
Of those 15,701 voted (50.67%).

Bennet: 12,600 (80.3%)
Bernski: 1,916 (12.2%)
Zaga: 1074 (7.47%)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on April 27, 2017, 04:02:17 PM
He won the last run with other 90%, but still a solid victory, will probably enable him to expand his broad tent programme further.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on April 27, 2017, 04:18:18 PM
Knessetjeremy's polling average for March+April (change compared to Jan+Feb) in seats:
Yesh Atid 25.8 (-0.6)
Likud 25.6 (+2.6)
Joint Arab List 12.7 (+0.1)
Bayit Yehudi 12.1 (-0.1)
Zionist Union 10.7 (-0.3)
UTJ 7.3 (-0.3)
Kulanu 6.7 (+0.5)
Yisrael Beiteinu 6.6 (-1.2)
Shas 6.3 (-0.5)
Meretz 6.2 (-0.2)

Right-religious coalition 64.6 (+1)
Center-left-Arab opposition 55.4 (-1)

Secular center-right YA-Likud-Kulanu-YB currently numerically possible, but of course unlikely to happen, especially if another two-horse race with YA instead of ZU takes place. Lapid will also want to be PM.

Will Labour use the Zionist Union label again next time? What's the deal with Livni?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 27, 2017, 04:37:03 PM
Knessetjeremy's polling average for March+April (change compared to Jan+Feb) in seats:
Yesh Atid 25.8 (-0.6)
Likud 25.6 (+2.6)
Joint Arab List 12.7 (+0.1)
Bayit Yehudi 12.1 (-0.1)
Zionist Union 10.7 (-0.3)
UTJ 7.3 (-0.3)
Kulanu 6.7 (+0.5)
Yisrael Beiteinu 6.6 (-1.2)
Shas 6.3 (-0.5)
Meretz 6.2 (-0.2)

Right-religious coalition 64.6 (+1)
Center-left-Arab opposition 55.4 (-1)

Secular center-right YA-Likud-Kulanu-YB currently numerically possible, but of course unlikely to happen, especially if another two-horse race with YA instead of ZU takes place. Lapid will also want to be PM.

Will Labour use the Zionist Union label again next time? What's the deal with Livni?

Didn't Livni get an offer for some job in the UN? If I were here, I'd take it, the Zionist Union probably won't continue.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on April 27, 2017, 09:34:47 PM
The BY primary takes place today. Party leader Naftali Bennett should be safe. Voting started at 2PM at various polling stations across the country and will go on until 10. Results are supposed to come in at about 11, since voting takes place electronically. Turnout is over 25% already. Two candidates are trying to take on Bennett: Rabbi Yitzhak Zagha and Yonatan Branski, the former head of the religious army unit Nahal Haredi; both appear to be to Bennett's right.
Both running on a lets-get-the-JH-to-become-more-religious again platform. I think Bennet feels like they could really stretch him as he's been touring the country for an otherwise boring election.

Labour leadership cadre confirmed:
Current leader Herzog (heading for a humiliating defeat)
Former leader MK Peretz (current front runner, socialist,  and a knob)
Former minister Avi Gabbay (strong contender, centrist)
MK Arel Margalit (running a leftist platform, most qualified as I see it)
MK Bar Lev (bland ex-general)
MG Amiram Levin (bland leftier ex-general)
Prof. Avner Ben Zaken (former Meretz member, mediocre academic and identity politics supporter)
Dina Dayan (orthodox Jew yet a feminist, probably going for name recognition before the next list election)
Hod Krovi (anonymous party member, supporter of the cooperative movement)

Avi Gabbay surprisingly announced he supports Shelly in the workers federation election hoping to lure some of her young "we don't get economics" voters to shift to him from Peretz. Cabel stayed out as well as Shaffir.

Margalit is running as a leftist now? Is that why you see him as the best one? It's weird to see a Meretz supporting saying he is the best candidate, unless you think he's good because he will lead Labor voters to switch to Meretz.

As for Ben Zaken, what does being an identity politics supporter entail in Israel? Hard to be deferential to minorities when your main minority group wishes the country didn't exist.

Also, wasn't there another general running, what happened to him?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 27, 2017, 10:51:18 PM
The BY primary takes place today. Party leader Naftali Bennett should be safe. Voting started at 2PM at various polling stations across the country and will go on until 10. Results are supposed to come in at about 11, since voting takes place electronically. Turnout is over 25% already. Two candidates are trying to take on Bennett: Rabbi Yitzhak Zagha and Yonatan Branski, the former head of the religious army unit Nahal Haredi; both appear to be to Bennett's right.
Both running on a lets-get-the-JH-to-become-more-religious again platform. I think Bennet feels like they could really stretch him as he's been touring the country for an otherwise boring election.

Labour leadership cadre confirmed:
Current leader Herzog (heading for a humiliating defeat)
Former leader MK Peretz (current front runner, socialist,  and a knob)
Former minister Avi Gabbay (strong contender, centrist)
MK Arel Margalit (running a leftist platform, most qualified as I see it)
MK Bar Lev (bland ex-general)
MG Amiram Levin (bland leftier ex-general)
Prof. Avner Ben Zaken (former Meretz member, mediocre academic and identity politics supporter)
Dina Dayan (orthodox Jew yet a feminist, probably going for name recognition before the next list election)
Hod Krovi (anonymous party member, supporter of the cooperative movement)

Avi Gabbay surprisingly announced he supports Shelly in the workers federation election hoping to lure some of her young "we don't get economics" voters to shift to him from Peretz. Cabel stayed out as well as Shaffir.

Margalit is running as a leftist now? Is that why you see him as the best one? It's weird to see a Meretz supporting saying he is the best candidate, unless you think he's good because he will lead Labor voters to switch to Meretz.

As for Ben Zaken, what does being an identity politics supporter entail in Israel? Hard to be deferential to minorities when your main minority group wishes the country didn't exist.

Also, wasn't there another general running, what happened to him?
Labour is a leftist party. Herzog and others kept trying tk run away from it, and it doesn't work, because the Israeli people still see them as leftists. Margalit is the only onevwho brings fresh ideas, and he doesn't run away from the party's identity- his campaign slogan is "the leftists are coming back".


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on April 28, 2017, 01:40:24 AM
The BY primary takes place today. Party leader Naftali Bennett should be safe. Voting started at 2PM at various polling stations across the country and will go on until 10. Results are supposed to come in at about 11, since voting takes place electronically. Turnout is over 25% already. Two candidates are trying to take on Bennett: Rabbi Yitzhak Zagha and Yonatan Branski, the former head of the religious army unit Nahal Haredi; both appear to be to Bennett's right.
Both running on a lets-get-the-JH-to-become-more-religious again platform. I think Bennet feels like they could really stretch him as he's been touring the country for an otherwise boring election.

Labour leadership cadre confirmed:
Current leader Herzog (heading for a humiliating defeat)
Former leader MK Peretz (current front runner, socialist,  and a knob)
Former minister Avi Gabbay (strong contender, centrist)
MK Arel Margalit (running a leftist platform, most qualified as I see it)
MK Bar Lev (bland ex-general)
MG Amiram Levin (bland leftier ex-general)
Prof. Avner Ben Zaken (former Meretz member, mediocre academic and identity politics supporter)
Dina Dayan (orthodox Jew yet a feminist, probably going for name recognition before the next list election)
Hod Krovi (anonymous party member, supporter of the cooperative movement)

Avi Gabbay surprisingly announced he supports Shelly in the workers federation election hoping to lure some of her young "we don't get economics" voters to shift to him from Peretz. Cabel stayed out as well as Shaffir.

Margalit is running as a leftist now? Is that why you see him as the best one? It's weird to see a Meretz supporting saying he is the best candidate, unless you think he's good because he will lead Labor voters to switch to Meretz.

As for Ben Zaken, what does being an identity politics supporter entail in Israel? Hard to be deferential to minorities when your main minority group wishes the country didn't exist.

Also, wasn't there another general running, what happened to him?
Major General Samia, he probably realized it was futile to begin with.

I see him as the best as he's the only one (well also Gabay) who could bring back voters from Lapid. He's also very intelligent and has a sound economic plan unlike the union pawns, and to top it running a campaign saying he's a leftist is brave and worthy of appraisal.

Identity politics in Israel means talking about Sephardic "discrimination" and evil Ashkenazis, while ignoring the presence of Arabs. Very hip with young people now.

As to Meretz, if Gilon wins the coming leadership election I'm out anyway.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on April 28, 2017, 02:29:26 AM
Is Ben Zaken Sephardic himself? Are most Israeli identity politics advocates Sephardic? In America, while Blacks and Hispanics are increasingly turning to identity politics, self hating White people have really always been the driving force behind it.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on April 28, 2017, 02:47:14 AM
Is Ben Zaken Sephardic himself? Are most Israeli identity politics advocates Sephardic? In America, while Blacks and Hispanics are increasingly turning to identity politics, self hating White people have really always been the driving force behind it.
Yes he is, yes they do, and yes they're also the driving engine here


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Santander on May 01, 2017, 12:17:10 PM
Happy Independence Day! :)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on May 02, 2017, 09:23:32 AM
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/228988

It's really well past time for Israel to get tough with UNESCO. Stop acknowledging them as a legitimate branch of the UN and treat them as the enemy entity they are. Deny anyone with UNESCO credentials the authority to do any work in Israel.

Either the UN can rein in their rogue branch, or they can double down. If that's the case, then the UN is the enemy as well and should be treated as such.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on May 02, 2017, 09:45:59 AM
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/228988

It's really well past time for Israel to get tough with UNESCO. Stop acknowledging them as a legitimate branch of the UN and treat them as the enemy entity they are. Deny anyone with UNESCO credentials the authority to do any work in Israel.

Either the UN can rein in their rogue branch, or they can double down. If that's the case, then the UN is the enemy as well and should be treated as such.
The joke's on them -- at this point resolutions like these hurt the legitimacy of UNESCO and the UN more than Israel's claim to Jerusalem... But I obviously agree with your proposed policy.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on May 02, 2017, 12:23:51 PM
While I agree that under international law that Israel can't unilaterally change international borders, I can't imagine a single reason why UNESCO should pass such a resolution.  It's not their job to point that out and it's counterproductive.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on May 05, 2017, 05:53:20 AM
Meanwhile, Hamas tries to have its cake and eat it (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2017/05/mil-170501-voa06.htm?_m=3n%2e002a%2e2003%2etr0ao08blx%2e1ucn).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on May 06, 2017, 01:48:57 PM
Meanwhile, Hamas tries to have its cake and eat it (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2017/05/mil-170501-voa06.htm?_m=3n%2e002a%2e2003%2etr0ao08blx%2e1ucn).

Hamas is clearly still reeling from the 2014 war and wants to avoid a conflict w/ Israel for the time being. Even with that in mind, its a bit confusing, to me at least, on what Hamas is trying to do.

Are they trying to get more PR-savvy by pretending to moderate? hard to tell. They are talking out of both sides of their mouths.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 06, 2017, 02:19:54 PM
Meanwhile, Hamas tries to have its cake and eat it (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2017/05/mil-170501-voa06.htm?_m=3n%2e002a%2e2003%2etr0ao08blx%2e1ucn).

Hamas is clearly still reeling from the 2014 war and wants to avoid a conflict w/ Israel for the time being. Even with that in mind, its a bit confusing, to me at least, on what Hamas is trying to do.

Are they trying to get more PR-savvy by pretending to moderate? hard to tell. They are talking out of both sides of their mouths.
They don't give a toss about Israel in that manifesto, it's for interior Palestinian reasons and maybe some distance hope of mild legitimization in Europe to boost the financial situation in Gaza.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Mike88 on May 14, 2017, 12:22:54 PM
Why did the government closed channel 1?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 15, 2017, 05:04:26 AM
Why did the government closed channel 1?
It was garbage for decades, hardly anyone watched it and it was synonymous with public inefficiency (also very prone to political influence).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on May 15, 2017, 07:58:54 AM
Willing to take a bet that Israel is not actually withdrawing from Eurovision.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on May 15, 2017, 08:25:43 AM
Willing to take a bet that Israel is not actually withdrawing from Eurovision.

It's not, the European media just misunderstood. Hopefully the new broadcasting corporation will be able to get us back in.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on May 15, 2017, 08:40:49 AM
Willing to take a bet that Israel is not actually withdrawing from Eurovision.
It's not, the European media just misunderstood. Hopefully the new broadcasting corporation will be able to get us back in.
They didn't misunderstand, Ofer Nachshon literally said that because he wanted to take a political jab at the government for shutting down the IBA.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 15, 2017, 09:01:57 AM
Lets not split hairs over it, this a tournament where the Italian contender performed with a Gorilla.

Now politics:
Shelly gained support from most of National Electric Company workers which is interesting...the race became tighter now.
The Labour race is predictably very noisy. Peretz-backed FB pages spread all sorts of negative stories on Gabbay (who he sees as his rival). Margalit's re-branding as the leftist candidate gave him some boost but I'm not sure it could see him through to the second round. Levin is basically the leftier version of Bar-Lev and both seem rather thick talking about anything other than security. Herzog is running a bizarre desperate campaign sponsoring opening primaries for the entire centre-left bloc.

Serious concern in the right regarding Trump's imminent visit, especially of the possibility he will demand Bibi to present his 2-states border proposition. Instead of backing Livni to be a UN USG and getting rid of her, she's now working in full cooperation with Trump's envoy.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: ApatheticAustrian on May 15, 2017, 11:19:37 AM
Why did the government closed channel 1?
It was garbage for decades, hardly anyone watched it and it was synonymous with public inefficiency (also very prone to political influence).

the government closed a state-run channel cause it was prone to political influence?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 15, 2017, 12:59:19 PM
Why did the government closed channel 1?
It was garbage for decades, hardly anyone watched it and it was synonymous with public inefficiency (also very prone to political influence).

the government closed a state-run channel cause it was prone to political influence?
Well the main reason was because it was garbage, there was an independent public broadcaster that was supposed to open instead but some political fiasco thwarted that plan


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on May 15, 2017, 10:34:36 PM
Any official word on what will happen with Hatnuah? Have their MPs just joined Labor yet?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 16, 2017, 02:42:46 AM
Any official word on what will happen with Hatnuah? Have their MPs just joined Labor yet?
Unclear, really depends on the primary results, but I could see most joining Labour


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 24, 2017, 03:16:33 AM
With 30% of the votes counted (high turnout of 45%) Nissenkorn leads Yechimovic 59-41, full results tomorrow but I expect the margin to narrow not turn. So Shelly stays in the Knesset and will probably back Gabay for leadership.

* as suspected, countless claims of election fraud. Doesn't really matter
** I don't like Yechimovich but she ran Nissenkorn hard, impressive all in all when you consider she ran against a strong establishment and pretty much all the parties there including her own (part for shas)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on May 24, 2017, 01:45:46 PM
With 30% of the votes counted (high turnout of 45%) Nissenkorn leads Yechimovic 59-41, full results tomorrow but I expect the margin to narrow not turn. So Shelly stays in the Knesset and will probably back Gabay for leadership.

* as suspected, countless claims of election fraud. Doesn't really matter
** I don't like Yechimovich but she ran Nissenkorn hard, impressive all in all when you consider she ran against a strong establishment and pretty much all the parties there including her own (part for shas)

I don't agree with her on everything, but I respect her. I really think that she was a much better candidate for the job than Nissenkorn, who is basically a corrupt member of the establishment that made the Worker's Organization so terrible.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Santander on May 24, 2017, 03:58:11 PM
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4967031,00.html

Czech parliament recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and calls for ending payments to UNESCO for its anti-Israel actions.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on May 25, 2017, 07:26:52 AM
President Zeman is quite pro-Israel. I remember when he was Prime Minister in the 90s he suggested nuking the West Bank.

As far as I know, the parliamentary majority isn't favorable to him. I wonder what the party breakdown of that vote was.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on May 25, 2017, 07:29:31 AM
President Zeman is quite pro-Israel. I remember when he was Prime Minister in the 90s he suggested nuking the West Bank.

As far as I know, the parliamentary majority isn't favorable to him. I wonder what the party breakdown of that vote was.

Yeah, leaving the whole of Israel in a radioactive cloud is a famously pro-Israeli position :P


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: ApatheticAustrian on May 25, 2017, 09:36:53 AM
zeman is mostly a corrupt, soft-authoritarian drunkard but i am kind of impressed he is pro-israel.

isn't such a common stand between local "right-wingers".


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on May 25, 2017, 09:51:51 AM
zeman is mostly a corrupt, soft-authoritarian drunkard but i am kind of impressed he is pro-israel.

isn't such a common stand between local "right-wingers".

Well culturally at least, he's a man of the left. He mostly just hates Muslims.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: ApatheticAustrian on May 25, 2017, 10:29:45 AM

Well culturally at least, he's a man of the left. He mostly just hates Muslims.

i know, but i haven't seen a lot of difference between him and his "conservative" predecessor. :)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on May 25, 2017, 10:07:05 PM
Partisan breakdown of the Czech vote here (http://www.psp.cz/sqw/hlasy.sqw?g=66318&l=cz). All parties voted for except for the Social Democrats (most abstained, 8 yea, 4 nay) and Communists (most opposed it). Czechia is pretty pro-Israel.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on May 28, 2017, 02:17:24 AM
Netanyahu chose Ayoob Kara as Minister of Communications. He was previously a Minister Without Portfolio, and the first Druze Minister in Israeli history.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: ApatheticAustrian on May 28, 2017, 11:55:40 AM
Partisan breakdown of the Czech vote here (http://www.psp.cz/sqw/hlasy.sqw?g=66318&l=cz). All parties voted for except for the Social Democrats (most abstained, 8 yea, 4 nay) and Communists (most opposed it). Czechia is pretty pro-Israel.

do you know anything about this?

seems to be more the exception than the rule in the region.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on May 28, 2017, 12:23:28 PM
do you know anything about this?

seems to be more the exception than the rule in the region.
Czech-Jewish relations in the 20th century were less strained than Hungarian-Jewish or Polish-Jewish relations and antisemitism wasn't as widespread. Part of it is that Czechs don't have their national identity tied to a religion. While being Polish is heavily tied to being Catholic and being Hungarian is at least tied to being Christian, the Czechs were nominally Catholic but this was a religion imposed on them by the Austrian Empire (see also the Wiki article on the defenestrations of Prague (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenestrations_of_Prague)). Once the Austrians left, a Maria Pillar was even torn down in the Old City of Prague because as a Catholic symbol it represented Austrian rule to the Czechs. So Jews didn't pose a religious threat to Czechs' national identity. After the war there were essentially no Jews in Czechia anymore and the country forcefully became secular. After Communism secularization continued because as opposed to other countries in the region, the Czechs' religion wasn't tied to their national identity.

For obvious reasons, Nazism/Nazi Germany is typically despised by nationalists too (as opposed to some nationalists in countries that were allied with the Germans), so both from a historical and from a religious or national perspective there is very little that makes Czechs dislike Jews.

Of course, countries like Hungary and Poland aren't nearly as antisemitic as they were before, and in terms of international politics they are more pro-Israel than most Western European countries... but the level of antisemitism in Czechia is definitely lower than in other Eastern European countries for the aforementioned reasons. Sorry for rambling, hope this is a bit coherent.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: ApatheticAustrian on May 28, 2017, 12:31:06 PM
Sorry for rambling, hope this is a bit coherent.

coherent and convincing enough for me, thank you.

as an austrian i am ofc blessed knowing quite a lot about the unraveling of the empire and the sentiments in the separate new "states", but i could be even more interesting for other users and your connection of the dots seems quite helpful.

i would still argue that hungary and poland are - on the personal/single citizen level - more antisemitic than, let's say, austria/netherlands, but on a foreign policy level i think you are correct.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on May 28, 2017, 01:34:40 PM
i would still argue that hungary and poland are - on the personal/single citizen level - more antisemitic than, let's say, austria/netherlands, but on a foreign policy level i think you are correct.
Absolutely true. I experienced this myself on the subway in Budapest where I was cursed at (there was some research and Budapest is apparently the *most* antisemitic place in Hungary -- you'd expect it to be the least antisemitic place, right?). Wouldn't compare Austria to the Netherlands though: Austria is quite a bit more antisemitic than the Netherlands, at least when it comes to the prevalence of classic antisemitic stereotypes (see the annual ADL (http://global100.adl.org/#map/) survey).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on June 04, 2017, 08:58:00 AM
There was a debate today for the Labour primaries with Herzog Peretz Levin Bar-Lev Gabbai and Margalit.

The climax of the event was when Margalit asked Gabbai if he voted for Likud in the past, Gabbai then made a whole thing about how he never voted Likud and how hard that is coming from a family where everyone else does. Margalit then sprung the trap and said that Gabbai once said in an interview that he voted Likud in the past, Gabbai insisted that this never happened, so Margalit takes out his phone and shows a video Gabbai saying he voted Likud. Gabbai had no answer to this and just kept pathetically repeating that he never voted Likud over and over.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: NewYorkExpress on June 11, 2017, 12:47:53 PM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-40240512 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-40240512)

Netanyahu and his wife won a libel suit against a journalist who claimed Mrs. Netanyahu had thrown her husband out of a car in a convoy.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on June 11, 2017, 12:50:56 PM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-40240512 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-40240512)

Netanyahu and his wife won a libel suit against a journalist who claimed Mrs. Netanyahu had thrown her husband out of a car in a convoy.

Meanwhile, Internal Security Minister Gilad Erdan falsely claimed that a Bedouin man killed in a car crash was an ISIS terrorist and got away with it. Sad.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on June 12, 2017, 04:11:01 AM
Labour leadership debate (peace issues):
Margalit, Peretz, Bar Lev, and Levin were all to the left. Peretz said he wouldn't mind negotiating with Hamas (which de facto already happened) and releasing Bargoti. Bar Lev was generic. Levin claimed Israel shouldn't interfere with Palestinian internal politics (quite a brave stand here). Margalit had nothing too insightful.
Herzog said he was closer to Bibi than Corbyn and stressed the need for a "regional solution within the framework of 10 years". Gabbay positioned himself somewhat to the right when he said he agrees with Clinton's (billy) proposal bar for the temple mount.

Bennet spoke afterwards and said he prefers a unified Jerusalem over a peace agreement.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on June 16, 2017, 05:49:58 AM
Party politics:
Housing Minister and MK (kulano) Yoav Galant looks dead certain to join Likud, it remains to be seen if Kachlon will sack him

Danny Danon (ambs. to the UN) is surprised that Bibi is not going to extend his term there, I am sure there is some internal politics meaning to it but I can't quite detect what

Polls for the Labour leadership campaign are being ran at a blistering pace, although unreliable somehow this industry still goes on. One from this morning: Peretz 28% Gabay 26% Margalit 15% Herzog 15% Bar Lev 9% Levin 3% others 4%. Peretz is set to reach the second round but it's uncertain who will be the second one with him. I think Levin\Bar Lev will drop soon and back Gabbay\Margalit.

Meretz, not only is there going to be a leadership election but the party convention delegates are also running for reelection in some sort of a referendum on the open primaries.

Shas, Deri is again under criminal investigation, what will happen if he is indicted is a mystery.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on June 16, 2017, 06:50:42 AM
Yeah, these Labour polls are trash. Completely wild and unreliable, making it very hard to detect whichever ones are good. Also, is there any indication on who's leading in Meterz?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on June 16, 2017, 07:28:56 AM
Yeah, these Labour polls are trash. Completely wild and unreliable, making it very hard to detect whichever ones are good. Also, is there any indication on who's leading in Meterz?
The election is contested between 1K convention delegates, after they're elected it will be quite certain who wins.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on June 16, 2017, 02:52:38 PM
Shas, Deri is again under criminal investigation, what will happen if he is indicted is a mystery.
More emotional meetups with lots of supporters + his children crying?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on June 17, 2017, 02:40:18 AM
Shas, Deri is again under criminal investigation, what will happen if he is indicted is a mystery.
More emotional meetups with lots of supporters + his children crying?
His children are not kids this time around and according to the news some of them took part and the alleged corruption


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on June 17, 2017, 12:38:44 PM
New (hopefully trash) Labour poll:

Peretz- 25%
Herzog- 24% (lol)
Bar Lev- 17% (lol)
Gabay- 15%
Margalit- 15%
Others- 4%

What contributes to this poll being trash, you ask? It was sent to Labour members along with Herzog's famous warcry of "revolution!". Yeah, we know how the revolution worked last time around. Although, it does make sense to see Gabay decreasing, he has been viciously attacked from many sides lately. I honestly think running for leader was a political mistake for him.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: NewYorkExpress on June 22, 2017, 10:55:25 AM
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/travel/israeli-court-rules-el-al-airline-cannot-ask-women-move-n775391 (http://www.nbcnews.com/business/travel/israeli-court-rules-el-al-airline-cannot-ask-women-move-n775391)

The Jerusalem Magistrate's Court ruled that El Al cannot move women to accommodate ultra-orthodox Jewish men.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on June 23, 2017, 01:59:39 PM
Polls are getting crazier by the day:

Herzog: 29%
Gabay: 22%
Margalit: 21%
Peretz: 19%
Bar Lev: 5%
Dina Dayan (an ultra-orthodox sephardic woman from the periphery- basically screams 'minority')- 2.5%
Amiram Levin (former General)- 1.5%

In other news, Ron Huldai, the Mayor of Tel Aviv, endorsed Herzog this week. It looks like the momentum IS with him, but I'm not sure just how strong he really is, with the polls being that fishy.
Also, Levin dropped out of the race today and endorsed Gabay. I'm not sure if it'll have any meaningful impact on the race, but maybe it will if the battle to get to the second round is tight enough.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on June 24, 2017, 04:12:54 AM
Polls are getting crazier by the day:

Herzog: 29%
Gabay: 22%
Margalit: 21%
Peretz: 19%
Bar Lev: 5%
Dina Dayan (an ultra-orthodox sephardic woman from the periphery- basically screams 'minority')- 2.5%
Amiram Levin (former General)- 1.5%

In other news, Ron Huldai, the Mayor of Tel Aviv, endorsed Herzog this week. It looks like the momentum IS with him, but I'm not sure just how strong he really is, with the polls being that fishy.
Also, Levin dropped out of the race today and endorsed Gabay. I'm not sure if it'll have any meaningful impact on the race, but maybe it will if the battle to get to the second round is tight enough.

Polls are useless here. Let's just refrain from spreading them.
The elections will be digital so we can expect results quickly (unlike the Peres Rabin thriller in 1980 where there was a 30 hours wait)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on June 26, 2017, 02:44:13 AM
Polls are getting crazier by the day:

Herzog: 29%
Gabay: 22%
Margalit: 21%
Peretz: 19%
Bar Lev: 5%
Dina Dayan (an ultra-orthodox sephardic woman from the periphery- basically screams 'minority')- 2.5%
Amiram Levin (former General)- 1.5%

In other news, Ron Huldai, the Mayor of Tel Aviv, endorsed Herzog this week. It looks like the momentum IS with him, but I'm not sure just how strong he really is, with the polls being that fishy.
Also, Levin dropped out of the race today and endorsed Gabay. I'm not sure if it'll have any meaningful impact on the race, but maybe it will if the battle to get to the second round is tight enough.

Polls are useless here. Let's just refrain from spreading them.
The elections will be digital so we can expect results quickly (unlike the Peres Rabin thriller in 1980 where there was a 30 hours wait)
As I said that a poll with a firmer statistical base (3K members) was conducted and the results look to correlate with reality:
Peretz 33%
Gabay 22.9%
Margalit 17.9%
Herzog 14.75%
Bar Lev 8.45%
Others 3.10%

Margalit needs a push above Gabay to get to second round. I'd offer bar Lev the sun and the moon


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on June 26, 2017, 03:20:55 AM
Polls are getting crazier by the day:

Herzog: 29%
Gabay: 22%
Margalit: 21%
Peretz: 19%
Bar Lev: 5%
Dina Dayan (an ultra-orthodox sephardic woman from the periphery- basically screams 'minority')- 2.5%
Amiram Levin (former General)- 1.5%

In other news, Ron Huldai, the Mayor of Tel Aviv, endorsed Herzog this week. It looks like the momentum IS with him, but I'm not sure just how strong he really is, with the polls being that fishy.
Also, Levin dropped out of the race today and endorsed Gabay. I'm not sure if it'll have any meaningful impact on the race, but maybe it will if the battle to get to the second round is tight enough.

Polls are useless here. Let's just refrain from spreading them.
The elections will be digital so we can expect results quickly (unlike the Peres Rabin thriller in 1980 where there was a 30 hours wait)
As I said that a poll with a firmer statistical base (3K members) was conducted and the results look to correlate with reality:
Peretz 33%
Gabay 22.9%
Margalit 17.9%
Herzog 14.75%
Bar Lev 8.45%
Others 3.10%

Margalit needs a push above Gabay to get to second round. I'd offer bar Lev the sun and the moon

Funny that no one saw fit to send this one to Labour members :P
Instead, they sent one where Bar Lev is at 21. Sigh.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on June 26, 2017, 04:30:57 AM
When do we get the result of this? Feels like this has been taking longer than the Democratic primary did.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on June 26, 2017, 04:37:08 AM
When do we get the result of this? Feels like this has been taking longer than the Democratic primary did.
Yeah, it's getting tiring. The first round is on July 4th, the second round, I believe, on July 14th.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on June 26, 2017, 05:05:46 AM
When do we get the result of this? Feels like this has been taking longer than the Democratic primary did.
Yeah, it's getting tiring. The first round is on July 4th, the second round, I believe, on July 14th.
Second round is on July 10th

You can see the poll here http://2sms.bz/files/423a98afa3b247a589aabba7b4c00c62.pdf
My uncle is a Labour member and he got it by SMS


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 03, 2017, 01:27:15 PM
Labour Leadership primaries will take place tomorrow. We are now down to 7 contenders and 5 big ones so I will refer to it as the war of the five beggar kings. I anticipate Peretz to make it to the second round the rest is too fuzzy to determine. The amount of energy spent on this campaign was incredible considering the party is dying. Results will be announced tomorrow night.

Meretz convention rejected a proposal to move into an open primaries system (US style) and the decision to call an early leadership election was rejected by the party's tribunal as unconstitutional. Gilon and his followers demand Galon to resign.

Party politics elsewhere is in a slumber.

I endorse Margalit tomorrow and call for him to break away with Livni to join Galon in some new Liberal-progressive bloc (let Peretz and Gilon build their 1950's socialist party)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 03, 2017, 01:29:57 PM
Labour Leadership primaries will take place tomorrow. We are now down to 7 contenders and 5 big ones so I will refer to it as the war of the five beggar kings. I anticipate Peretz to make it to the second round the rest is too fuzzy to determine. The amount of energy spent on this campaign was incredible considering the party is dying. Results will be announced tomorrow night.

Meretz convention rejected a proposal to move into an open primaries system (US style) and the decision to call an early leadership election was rejected by the party's tribunal as unconstitutional. Gilon and his followers demand Galon to resign.

Party politics elsewhere is in a slumber.

I endorse Margalit tomorrow and call for him to break away with Livni to join Galon in some new Liberal-progressive bloc (let Peretz and Gilon build their 1950's socialist party)

Yeah, I'm voting for Margalit tomorrow.
Also, polls sent to Labour members in the last few days were absolutely hilarious: in one occasion, they sent the results of a 'final poll', then sent them again with a correction, then sent them again with ANOTHER correction. And then it happened with yet another 'poll', this time only one correction.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 03, 2017, 08:01:19 PM
I'm getting more and more convinced that economic injustice is the most urgent problem in Israel and that it has to be solved. Corruption, oligarchy and extreme capitalism affect the nation negatively in all sorts of ways. Many people are almost enslaved by their employer.

Who should I support if I want a Labour Party that is focused on the dire employment situation millions of Israelis face and wants to change the complete system, but isn't interested in embracing the far-left NGOs and anti-Zionists, has a sense of responsibility when it comes to national security and cares about Israel's Jewish future?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on July 03, 2017, 08:47:24 PM
nooo, you joining the dark side :(


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 03, 2017, 08:58:05 PM
I'd never actually vote for them. Despite my left-wing economic views in Israel, my Zionism is still the right-wing type. But I'd prefer to have a Labour leader who is closer to me ideologically than one who stands further away from me.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Kingpoleon on July 03, 2017, 09:03:50 PM
Labour Leadership primaries will take place tomorrow. We are now down to 7 contenders and 5 big ones so I will refer to it as the war of the five beggar kings. I anticipate Peretz to make it to the second round the rest is too fuzzy to determine. The amount of energy spent on this campaign was incredible considering the party is dying. Results will be announced tomorrow night.

Meretz convention rejected a proposal to move into an open primaries system (US style) and the decision to call an early leadership election was rejected by the party's tribunal as unconstitutional. Gilon and his followers demand Galon to resign.

Party politics elsewhere is in a slumber.

I endorse Margalit tomorrow and call for him to break away with Livni to join Galon in some new Liberal-progressive bloc (let Peretz and Gilon build their 1950's socialist party)

Yeah, I'm voting for Margalit tomorrow.
Also, polls sent to Labour members in the last few days were absolutely hilarious: in one occasion, they sent the results of a 'final poll', then sent them again with a correction, then sent them again with ANOTHER correction. And then it happened with yet another 'poll', this time only one correction.

Is Margalit the most moderate?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 04, 2017, 12:45:54 AM
Labour Leadership primaries will take place tomorrow. We are now down to 7 contenders and 5 big ones so I will refer to it as the war of the five beggar kings. I anticipate Peretz to make it to the second round the rest is too fuzzy to determine. The amount of energy spent on this campaign was incredible considering the party is dying. Results will be announced tomorrow night.

Meretz convention rejected a proposal to move into an open primaries system (US style) and the decision to call an early leadership election was rejected by the party's tribunal as unconstitutional. Gilon and his followers demand Galon to resign.

Party politics elsewhere is in a slumber.

I endorse Margalit tomorrow and call for him to break away with Livni to join Galon in some new Liberal-progressive bloc (let Peretz and Gilon build their 1950's socialist party)

Yeah, I'm voting for Margalit tomorrow.
Also, polls sent to Labour members in the last few days were absolutely hilarious: in one occasion, they sent the results of a 'final poll', then sent them again with a correction, then sent them again with ANOTHER correction. And then it happened with yet another 'poll', this time only one correction.

Is Margalit the most moderate?
As my old philosophy professor would have said, moderate is a concept with the extension of the empty set in Israel. I assume you're referring to dovish

And David, I do not believe in this great social injustice (data clearly points the other way), but I guess Ben Zaken is closest to what you're looking for (in Labour)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Kingpoleon on July 04, 2017, 12:53:41 AM
Labour Leadership primaries will take place tomorrow. We are now down to 7 contenders and 5 big ones so I will refer to it as the war of the five beggar kings. I anticipate Peretz to make it to the second round the rest is too fuzzy to determine. The amount of energy spent on this campaign was incredible considering the party is dying. Results will be announced tomorrow night.

Meretz convention rejected a proposal to move into an open primaries system (US style) and the decision to call an early leadership election was rejected by the party's tribunal as unconstitutional. Gilon and his followers demand Galon to resign.

Party politics elsewhere is in a slumber.

I endorse Margalit tomorrow and call for him to break away with Livni to join Galon in some new Liberal-progressive bloc (let Peretz and Gilon build their 1950's socialist party)

Yeah, I'm voting for Margalit tomorrow.
Also, polls sent to Labour members in the last few days were absolutely hilarious: in one occasion, they sent the results of a 'final poll', then sent them again with a correction, then sent them again with ANOTHER correction. And then it happened with yet another 'poll', this time only one correction.

Is Margalit the most moderate?
As my old philosophy professor would have said, moderate is a concept with the extension of the empty set in Israel. I assume you're referring to dovish

And David, I do not believe in this great social injustice (data clearly points the other way), but I guess Ben Zaken is closest to what you're looking for (in Labour)

I was actually referring to economics, as the two state solution is rather complicated, but I doubt Labour will ever be too pro-Palestine for me.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 04, 2017, 02:00:40 AM
Labour Leadership primaries will take place tomorrow. We are now down to 7 contenders and 5 big ones so I will refer to it as the war of the five beggar kings. I anticipate Peretz to make it to the second round the rest is too fuzzy to determine. The amount of energy spent on this campaign was incredible considering the party is dying. Results will be announced tomorrow night.

Meretz convention rejected a proposal to move into an open primaries system (US style) and the decision to call an early leadership election was rejected by the party's tribunal as unconstitutional. Gilon and his followers demand Galon to resign.

Party politics elsewhere is in a slumber.

I endorse Margalit tomorrow and call for him to break away with Livni to join Galon in some new Liberal-progressive bloc (let Peretz and Gilon build their 1950's socialist party)

Yeah, I'm voting for Margalit tomorrow.
Also, polls sent to Labour members in the last few days were absolutely hilarious: in one occasion, they sent the results of a 'final poll', then sent them again with a correction, then sent them again with ANOTHER correction. And then it happened with yet another 'poll', this time only one correction.

Is Margalit the most moderate?
As my old philosophy professor would have said, moderate is a concept with the extension of the empty set in Israel. I assume you're referring to dovish

And David, I do not believe in this great social injustice (data clearly points the other way), but I guess Ben Zaken is closest to what you're looking for (in Labour)

I was actually referring to economics, as the two state solution is rather complicated, but I doubt Labour will ever be too pro-Palestine for me.

Well, Margalit runs on his business record and on cooperation between businesses and government, so you could say he's less of a socialist than, say, Peretz. But with the rest, I'm not entirely sure- Gabay, for example, was also a businessman, so who knows, he could be even more economically moderate. This election is less about ideology, and more about who can find a way to revive Labour.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 04, 2017, 02:54:34 AM
Labour Leadership primaries will take place tomorrow. We are now down to 7 contenders and 5 big ones so I will refer to it as the war of the five beggar kings. I anticipate Peretz to make it to the second round the rest is too fuzzy to determine. The amount of energy spent on this campaign was incredible considering the party is dying. Results will be announced tomorrow night.

Meretz convention rejected a proposal to move into an open primaries system (US style) and the decision to call an early leadership election was rejected by the party's tribunal as unconstitutional. Gilon and his followers demand Galon to resign.

Party politics elsewhere is in a slumber.

I endorse Margalit tomorrow and call for him to break away with Livni to join Galon in some new Liberal-progressive bloc (let Peretz and Gilon build their 1950's socialist party)

Yeah, I'm voting for Margalit tomorrow.
Also, polls sent to Labour members in the last few days were absolutely hilarious: in one occasion, they sent the results of a 'final poll', then sent them again with a correction, then sent them again with ANOTHER correction. And then it happened with yet another 'poll', this time only one correction.

Is Margalit the most moderate?
As my old philosophy professor would have said, moderate is a concept with the extension of the empty set in Israel. I assume you're referring to dovish

And David, I do not believe in this great social injustice (data clearly points the other way), but I guess Ben Zaken is closest to what you're looking for (in Labour)

I was actually referring to economics, as the two state solution is rather complicated, but I doubt Labour will ever be too pro-Palestine for me.
Well that category doesn't apply here as well as we actually have socialists here and still have socialist institutions.

Margalit - New Labour (he also describes himself as such). Supports market initiative with state regulation and boost
Peretz - old school socialist, tradeunionist.
Bar Lev - making social democratic sounds but I doubt he knows all that much on economics.
Gabay - he was a businessman, doesn't make socialist proposals but rather populist-social proposals like his old mentor Kachlon
Herzog - central line democrat (Joe Biden).

So if we must draw a line then Herzog will be your moderate hero, Peretz will be the Sanders, Margalit will be D Miliband.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 04, 2017, 04:37:56 AM
A novelty in Israeli politics, a live tracker for turnout
https://pub.kalfi.co.il


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 04, 2017, 05:39:54 AM
Just cast my vote for Erel Margalit. When I came into the voting station, they got really excited about a youth voting... I think our political system has a problem :P
Also, 17% turnout for less than 3 hours after the voting opened seems not terrible, right?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 04, 2017, 06:07:01 AM
Just cast my vote for Erel Margalit. When I came into the voting station, they got really excited about a youth voting... I think our political system has a problem :P
Also, 17% turnout for less than 3 hours after the voting opened seems not terrible, right?
I saw the Jerusalem polling station. Loads of youth, probably students.

Not bad. Should be around 50-60% in the end I think


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 04, 2017, 06:09:50 AM
Just cast my vote for Erel Margalit. When I came into the voting station, they got really excited about a youth voting... I think our political system has a problem :P
Also, 17% turnout for less than 3 hours after the voting opened seems not terrible, right?
I saw the Jerusalem polling station. Loads of youth, probably students.

Not bad. Should be around 50-60% in the end I think

Considering I live in a Development town in the Galilee, and considering the rate youths leave these kinds of places, I guess it's justified to be surprised by the sight of any youth, let alone a youth voting in the Labour primaries.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 04, 2017, 06:25:28 AM
Just cast my vote for Erel Margalit. When I came into the voting station, they got really excited about a youth voting... I think our political system has a problem :P
Also, 17% turnout for less than 3 hours after the voting opened seems not terrible, right?
I saw the Jerusalem polling station. Loads of youth, probably students.

Not bad. Should be around 50-60% in the end I think

Considering I live in a Development town in the Galilee, and considering the rate youths leave these kinds of places, I guess it's justified to be surprised by the sight of any youth, let alone a youth voting in the Labour primaries.
Karmiel?

anyway this is the lowest electorate ever. last proper primaries were 1996, and the biggest were 1981.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 04, 2017, 06:27:15 AM
Just cast my vote for Erel Margalit. When I came into the voting station, they got really excited about a youth voting... I think our political system has a problem :P
Also, 17% turnout for less than 3 hours after the voting opened seems not terrible, right?
I saw the Jerusalem polling station. Loads of youth, probably students.

Not bad. Should be around 50-60% in the end I think

Considering I live in a Development town in the Galilee, and considering the rate youths leave these kinds of places, I guess it's justified to be surprised by the sight of any youth, let alone a youth voting in the Labour primaries.
Karmiel?

anyway this is the lowest electorate ever. last proper primaries were 1996, and the biggest were 1981.

Worse- Ma'alot.
Also, turnout at 20%, I guess it should increase when the workday is over.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 04, 2017, 06:29:15 AM
Just cast my vote for Erel Margalit. When I came into the voting station, they got really excited about a youth voting... I think our political system has a problem :P
Also, 17% turnout for less than 3 hours after the voting opened seems not terrible, right?
I saw the Jerusalem polling station. Loads of youth, probably students.

Not bad. Should be around 50-60% in the end I think

Considering I live in a Development town in the Galilee, and considering the rate youths leave these kinds of places, I guess it's justified to be surprised by the sight of any youth, let alone a youth voting in the Labour primaries.
Karmiel?

anyway this is the lowest electorate ever. last proper primaries were 1996, and the biggest were 1981.

Worse- Ma'alot.
Also, turnout at 20%, I guess it should increase when the workday is over.
oh dear, I never met anyone from up there who spoke English (well there's one but she's a right wing nutter). Yes the local Labour branch there is very old and very Herzog.

It is boiling today and there are less polling stations, I expect a peak after 7pm


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 04, 2017, 09:29:58 AM
Turnout 33.3% now.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Santander on July 04, 2017, 10:29:55 AM
Modi visiting Israel right now. Thoughts?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 04, 2017, 10:41:51 AM
Modi visiting Israel right now. Thoughts?
birds of a feather flock together. probably here to buy more arms.

turnout at 42%, I expect it will not exceed 60%.
The senior citizens division in Labour called on members to boycott the first round due the shameful (it really was) conduct of the different contenders. could be a little blow to the likes of Herzog and Bar Lev.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 04, 2017, 11:05:40 AM
And David, I do not believe in this great social injustice (data clearly points the other way), but I guess Ben Zaken is closest to what you're looking for (in Labour)
I'm not into the toxic idpol stuff that will only divide people. When I talk about economic injustice I mean poverty, not racism. We need to live that tribal galut stuff behind us instead of framing it in 21st century SJW terms. '

After reading up on it, it seems that Gabay and Herzog are the least bad ones to me.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 04, 2017, 11:09:50 AM
And David, I do not believe in this great social injustice (data clearly points the other way), but I guess Ben Zaken is closest to what you're looking for (in Labour)
I'm not into the toxic idpol stuff that will only divide people. When I talk about economic injustice I mean poverty, not racism.
He's a big supporter of increased funds going to the Jewish periphery, he's also light on the idpol (those lot actually found themselves all over the place this time around).
Maybe they talk about racism and Yemenite babies because intense poverty isn't really an issue and they know it (and Likud knows it...)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 04, 2017, 11:21:30 AM
He's a big supporter of increased funds going to the Jewish periphery, he's also light on the idpol (those lot actually found themselves all over the place this time around).
Ah, I thought he was very much into that. That doesn't sound bad.

Maybe they talk about racism and Yemenite babies because intense poverty isn't really an issue and they know it (and Likud knows it...)
You may be right, but surely there is a rather large gap between the rich and the poor (though this figure is also affected by the life choices of Haredim and Arabs...) and there are many people who very much struggle to get by, are piling up debt, earn barely more than minimum wage (4630 NIS is barely a living wage in Israel, and that already implies someone gets to work full time) etc. I'm not saying Israel is like Turkey or Russia, but there are people who are poor and have a very tough time, and a party like Labour should first and foremost be there to improve living conditions for these people, as well as for the people who earn slightly more but can be helped to live a better life.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 04, 2017, 11:27:16 AM
He's a big supporter of increased funds going to the Jewish periphery, he's also light on the idpol (those lot actually found themselves all over the place this time around).
Ah, I thought he was very much into that. That doesn't sound bad.

Maybe they talk about racism and Yemenite babies because intense poverty isn't really an issue and they know it (and Likud knows it...)
You may be right, but surely there is a rather large gap between the rich and the poor (though this figure is also affected by the life choices of Haredim and Arabs...) and there are many people who very much struggle to get by, are piling up debt, earn barely more than minimum wage (4630 NIS is barely a living wage in Israel, and that already implies someone gets to work full time) etc. I'm not saying Israel is like Turkey or Russia, but there are people who are poor and have a very tough time, and a party like Labour should first and foremost be there to improve living conditions for these people, as well as for the people who earn slightly more but can be helped to live a better life.
Poverty is relative of course.
But the lower income population in Israel (lowest 20% of households) is predominantly Haredi/Arabic. Higher up though...they may not have a high standard of living but unemployment is very low and they get by. Problems working class people in Europe encounter like crime/drugs/inaccessibility to education are really minor issues here. Labour/Likud have very little to offer on this matter.

On the other hand if you do want a Marxist analysis then the class getting broke the fastest in today's economy is the middle class


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 04, 2017, 12:05:00 PM
In the last hours, I received three or four negative messages against Margalit and one against Bar Lev. These are also the first negative sms I received about them, while the other 3 candidates, who I believe got none today, got a lot of negativity before election day. Cautious prediction- these two will outperform, especially Margalit.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 04, 2017, 12:25:27 PM
A 10% increase in turnout from 2013. Low turnout with Arabs (=bad for Peretz and Herzog)

Final turnout 59% (exactly) 30998 voters. Results soon (voting still happening in Tel Aviv and Haifa)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 04, 2017, 01:54:42 PM
Results supposed to come in 2 minutes. Supposed.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 04, 2017, 01:55:44 PM
Peretz v Gabay in the run off. that's the word


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 04, 2017, 02:04:11 PM
Official results:
Peretz 10141 votes 32.72%
Gabay 8395 27.08%
Herzog 5204 16.79%
Margalit 4997 16.12%
Bar Lev 2147 6.93%
Ben Zaken 56 0.18%
Krovi 8 0.03%

turnout: 59.04% (+7% since 2013) 30998.
going to a second round next week


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 04, 2017, 02:06:07 PM
first analysis: Pretty impressive by Gabay. There was one poll that got it pretty spot on. Bar Lev quitting would have made no difference.
It is going to be very very close next week


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on July 04, 2017, 02:07:40 PM
Official results:
Peretz 10141 votes 32.72%
Gabay 8395 27.08%
Herzog 5204 16.79%
Margalit 4997 16.12%
Bar Lev 2147 6.93%
Ben Zakee didn't get it
Krovi 8 0%

turnout: 59% (+7% since 2013) 30998.
going to a second round next week

Ben Zaken 56 0.18%


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 04, 2017, 02:11:49 PM
Official results:
Peretz 10141 votes 32.72%
Gabay 8395 27.08%
Herzog 5204 16.79%
Margalit 4997 16.12%
Bar Lev 2147 6.93%
Ben Zakee didn't get it
Krovi 8 0%

turnout: 59% (+7% since 2013) 30998.
going to a second round next week

Ben Zaken 56 0.18%
Ha! suits that pompous nothing. 

I may have mixed up Bar Lev figures a bit, still can't find the detailed results online.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 04, 2017, 02:14:05 PM
In all honesty Margalit was the candidate I was most afraid of in terms of potential electoral success, so I'm glad he didn't qualify for the runoff...


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on July 04, 2017, 02:14:22 PM
Official results:
Peretz 10141 votes 32.72%
Gabay 8395 27.08%
Herzog 5204 16.79%
Margalit 4997 16.12%
Bar Lev 2147 6.93%
Ben Zakee didn't get it
Krovi 8 0%

turnout: 59% (+7% since 2013) 30998.
going to a second round next week

Ben Zaken 56 0.18%
Ha! suits that pompous nothing. 

I may have mixed up Bar Lev figures a bit, still can't find the detailed results online.

Your Bar Lev results are fine, I'm getting the results from Tal Schneiders twitter.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on July 04, 2017, 02:18:01 PM
Very Impressive from Gabbay going from a random guy to getting selected by Kachlon, to then somehow leveraging that into possibly leading the Labour party.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 04, 2017, 02:19:10 PM
In the last hours, I received three or four negative messages against Margalit and one against Bar Lev. These are also the first negative sms I received about them, while the other 3 candidates, who I believe got none today, got a lot of negativity before election day. Cautious prediction- these two will outperform, especially Margalit.

I have a feeling these SMS messages against Margalit were from his HQ, perhaps an attempt to create a buzz...


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 04, 2017, 02:19:30 PM
Very Impressive from Gabbay going from a random guy to getting selected by Kachlon, to then somehow leveraging that into possibly leading the Labour party.
indeed. I think he could siphon more Margalit\Bar Lev\Herzog voters than Peretz.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 04, 2017, 02:22:19 PM
A constitutional note: Gabay is not a MK and if he is elected he cannot act as the leader of the opposition and get the benefits the position grants him.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 04, 2017, 03:02:00 PM
Who will you guys be voting for?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 04, 2017, 03:04:10 PM

I think Hnv1 is a Meretz member so he can't vote in the Labour Primaries, but I'll be voting for Gabay. Peretz is just too corrupt and driven by identity politics.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 04, 2017, 03:20:31 PM
I'm not a Labour member so I'm not voting. If I were I would be very unenthusiastic about them both. I don't think Peretz is corrupt or IdenPo (the old socialist that he is, is actually not fond of this narrative), but he also brings nothing new and I can't stand this brand of Israeli socialism-populism (and him personally). Gabay on the other hand is not really from the left and strikes me as politically incompetent.

Crushed against the wall I will reluctantly go with Gabay


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 04, 2017, 03:37:40 PM
Ah, for some reason I thought you were a Labour member too, but I should have known. How did Gabay leave Kulanu again? Will cooperation with Kulanu be easier or more difficult with Gabay at the helm of Labour?

As for Peretz, if he wins, Lapid should just make ads with this...
()

A May 26 Migron poll showed that all parties are still at roughly the same level as in the 2015 election, except that YA have taken about half of ZU's voters. GE15 in brackets.

30 [30] Likud
22 [11] Yesh Atid
13 [13] The Joint (Arab) List
12 [24] Zionist Union
09 [08] Bayit Yehudi
07 [10] Kulanu
07 [07] Shas
07 [06] Yahadut Hatorah/UTJ
07 [06] Yisrael Beitenu
06 [05] Meretz
00 [–] Yaalon Party


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: parochial boy on July 04, 2017, 04:02:11 PM
Sorry to display my complete ignorance of Israeli politics, but given the way that demographics tend to vote, is it not surprising that there isn't really a party that combined stron on defence/nationalist rhetoric with economic populism?

I vaguely remember people getting excited about Shas a couple of years ago, but aren't they basically completely out of the question for anyone who isnt a Haredie Mizrahi?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 04, 2017, 04:47:00 PM
Quite some non-Haredi Mizrahim vote for Shas; people who are "traditional" (i.e. who don't keep all the Jewish laws but who nonetheless find a certain level of observance to be important) and were inspired by the late Sephardic Chief Rabbi Ovadia Yosef have continued to vote for Shas too.

That said, yes, one would perhaps expect a more left-wing party economically competing for the votes of "hawkish", nationalist voters that are less well-off (which would mainly, but not exclusively, be Mizrahim, Russians and Ethiopians). I think there are a few explanations. The most important one, I think, is that much of the political debate on economic issues is overshadowed by a) the Arab-Israeli conflict and disagreement on the status and future of the areas that were taken over in 1967 and b) religion-state issues; ethnic and religious identity politics. This causes people who are strongly right-wing nationalists to vote for the right regardless of their economic program. Another explanation is that many of the abovementioned people feel highly emotionally attached to the Likud, as a family tradition. What's more, the political debate on economics in Israel in general takes place much less orderly and ideologically than in Western Europe, which a lot of populism, many soundbites and little ideological direction. This is not an explanation in itself, but it makes for an atmosphere in which politicians are more often distrusted and it is perhaps less clear how voting for a certain party will affect you financially (parties often lack manifestos too). Yet another explanation would be that the Israeli economy has been growing steadily for the last 30 years or so, with improving living conditions for most of the people in the abovementioned categories.

Arguably Labour and its predecessors had the profile you described for a long time in their history, at least before the First Intifada, though they lost most of the electorate you mentioned in the 70s already.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Kingpoleon on July 04, 2017, 05:01:17 PM
I'm certainly rooting for Gabay now, as a supporter of Kulanu, Yesh Atid, and Hatnuah. Of the three, I prefer Yesh Atid.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Kingpoleon on July 04, 2017, 05:15:38 PM
Poll of Labour's cadre:
Gabay 22%
Peretz 21%
Margalit 10%
Bar Lev 10%
Herzog 7% (lol)
Undecided 29%

Second round
Gabay 55%
Peretz 45%

Shame on margalit but at least Peretz misses out



This poll, when you take out undecideds from the overall percentage, was rather accurate for the first round.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on July 05, 2017, 04:49:55 PM
Weird, 2 Sephardic Jews running against each other in the Labor run-off. This is a bit like if the two main contenders for the GOP nomination were Herman Cain and Ben Carson. Well, probably not that weird, but a little weird.

I wonder if (Ashkenazi) turn out will be hurt as a result. Presumably the Ashkeanzis that do turn out will all support Gabay.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 05, 2017, 04:59:44 PM
Weird, 2 Sephardic Jews running against each other in the Labor run-off. This is a bit like if the two main contenders for the GOP nomination were Herman Cain and Ben Carson. Well, probably not that weird, but a little weird.

I wonder if (Ashkenazi) turn out will be hurt as a result. Presumably the Ashkeanzis that do turn out will all support Gabay.

...No. If that were true, Gabay would win by a landslide. Ashkenazis are not white voters from Mississippi or something.
As for the turnour, I think there will be an overall decrease because some Herzog, Margalit or Bar Lev (lol) supporters will not bother voting, but I doubt that any Ashkenazi other than a few old racists care about the Labour candidate being sephardic.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 05, 2017, 05:00:24 PM
The vast majority of Labour members are Ashkenazim and the fact that both candidates are Mizrahim is very unlikely to affect turnout since it just doesn't work like that, and plenty of Ashkenazi Labour members will be voting for Peretz too. What may affect turnout, however, is the fact that both candidates have their flaws and that there may be many Labour voters who aren't inspired by either of them.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on July 05, 2017, 05:47:58 PM
I'm just glad Herzog lost.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 05, 2017, 06:00:03 PM
Why? He was one of the better ones ideologically, and one of the worse ones electorally. Win-win.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Kingpoleon on July 05, 2017, 11:35:47 PM
Weird, 2 Sephardic Jews running against each other in the Labor run-off. This is a bit like if the two main contenders for the GOP nomination were Herman Cain and Ben Carson. Well, probably not that weird, but a little weird.

I wonder if (Ashkenazi) turn out will be hurt as a result. Presumably the Ashkeanzis that do turn out will all support Gabay.

...No. If that were true, Gabay would win by a landslide. Ashkenazis are not white voters from Mississippi or something.
As for the turnour, I think there will be an overall decrease because some Herzog, Margalit or Bar Lev (lol) supporters will not bother voting, but I doubt that any Ashkenazi other than a few old racists care about the Labour candidate being sephardic.

Please don't tell me this is a common view of Mississippi whites worldwide.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 06, 2017, 03:04:43 AM
Weird, 2 Sephardic Jews running against each other in the Labor run-off. This is a bit like if the two main contenders for the GOP nomination were Herman Cain and Ben Carson. Well, probably not that weird, but a little weird.

I wonder if (Ashkenazi) turn out will be hurt as a result. Presumably the Ashkeanzis that do turn out will all support Gabay.
I found the 'Labour to be an Ashkenaz secluded stronghold' to be mainly a myth that does correlate with the reality of neither the voters or the membership. Anyway even in demographics where it might be be a factor (old kibbutz members) it will play a very minor role (Peretz already won in quite a lot of them against Peres). The sectarian tension between sephardi-ashkenaz is simply not really a big issue here, it's not remotely similar to the white-black tension in America as there is another significant "other" here. It more like Catholics-Protestants in some US states once.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 08, 2017, 09:41:57 AM
Herzog and Margalit have endorsed Peretz.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 08, 2017, 01:15:16 PM
Herzog and Margalit have endorsed Peretz.
Herzog voters could be swayed by it, from what I hear and see on social media Margalit supporters aren't rushing to Peretz (for a variety of reasons). Yechimovic and former PM Barak endorsed Gabay. Only Shaffir from the big names is still on the fence (Bar Lev refused to endorse any of them).

I wonder if many voters would want to stick one up the "establishment", electing Gabay could put the PLP (am I allowed to use this term outside of the UK?) in a dangerous spin.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 08, 2017, 01:20:27 PM
Herzog and Margalit have endorsed Peretz.
Herzog voters could be swayed by it, from what I hear and see on social media Margalit supporters aren't rushing to Peretz (for a variety of reasons). Yechimovic and former PM Barak endorsed Gabay. Only Shaffir from the big names is still on the fence (Bar Lev refused to endorse any of them).

I wonder if many voters would want to stick one up the "establishment", electing Gabay could put the PLP (am I allowed to use this term outside of the UK?) in a dangerous spin.

Shaffir endorsed Gabay yesterday. He seems to have the less old-establishment-minded MPs like Rosenthal, Yachimovich, Biran and Shaffir with him, while Peretz gets people like Herzog, Bar, and Shay.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on July 09, 2017, 11:53:58 AM
Weird.

It seems like Gabbay is getting the more economically left-wing MKs and Peretz is getting the more economically right-wing MKs, which is the exact opposite of what I would have expected based on past information.

Am I reading this right? Or is everyone going to jump on me and say "ECONOMICS ARE A NON-ISSUE IN ISRAEL!" and it's purely a matter of establishment vs. anti-establishment?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MaxQue on July 10, 2017, 12:58:04 AM
Not sure it's the right thread, but.

The leader of the ultra-orthodox cult Lev Tahor (qualified as dangerous and child abusers by an Israeli court), which was previously living on Quebec and Ontario (they fled to Guatemala, claiming they were persecuted (rather because authorities wanted to prosecute them for beating up kids, denying them education and making them stay in insalubrious conditions), they also make women wear integral veils) drowned during a purification ceremony in a river.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/leader-of-lev-tahor-cult-drowns-in-mexico-report/


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 10, 2017, 02:40:29 AM
Good riddance.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MaxQue on July 10, 2017, 03:22:58 AM

Yeah, should help lower antisemitism in Quebec if that weaken the sect (antisemitism is high because of them being used by populist politicians an the perfect example of "foreigners not integrating" and because they end in Quebec news a lot (probably half the time the Jewish faith is mentionned in news here is in relation to them, their abuses, their flights or the fight to rapatriate the Canadian born kids. Doesn't do anything about the other 30% about ultra-oxthodox illegal schools/illegal parking/traditions clashing with gender equality).

I wish it will help the families of the brainwashed to recover their family members.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 10, 2017, 03:34:39 AM
Weird.

It seems like Gabbay is getting the more economically left-wing MKs and Peretz is getting the more economically right-wing MKs, which is the exact opposite of what I would have expected based on past information.

Am I reading this right? Or is everyone going to jump on me and say "ECONOMICS ARE A NON-ISSUE IN ISRAEL!" and it's purely a matter of establishment vs. anti-establishment?
In some way that's correct, I saw the Danny Gutwein followers already tarnishing his supporters as not 'true socialists' online.

Quote
Not sure it's the right thread, but.

The leader of the ultra-orthodox cult Lev Tahor (qualified as dangerous and child abusers by an Israeli court), which was previously living on Quebec and Ontario (they fled to Guatemala, claiming they were persecuted (rather because authorities wanted to prosecute them for beating up kids, denying them education and making them stay in insalubrious conditions), they also make women wear integral veils) drowned during a purification ceremony in a river.
Never heard of him\them, doesn't seem that I've missed much. On the outskirts of Haredi (mainly hassidic) society there are quite a lot of bizarre cults, the Taliban Women in Jerusalem are the most infamous though by far not the largest of them


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on July 10, 2017, 11:27:41 AM
Why? He was one of the better ones ideologically, and one of the worse ones electorally. Win-win.

Yes, that's true, but it stopped being funny and started becoming sad and pathetic on his part.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 10, 2017, 12:28:20 PM
Turnout figures will be similar to the first round (just short of 60%). Results in an hour, Gabay's hq are a little stressed and are trying to get more people to vote. Time for bets! 53-47 to Peretz, Gabay is too unfamiliar to carry this


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 10, 2017, 12:31:05 PM
Turnout figures will be similar to the first round (just short of 60%). Results in an hour, Gabay's hq are a little stressed and are trying to get more people to vote. Time for bets! 53-47 to Peretz, Gabay is too unfamiliar to carry this
In the area of 55-45 for Peretz. Voted for Gabay today, the machine had a problem with it and took a few tried to register the vote, but it's probably just the machine.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 10, 2017, 01:22:18 PM
Avi Gabay won.
52.4% for Gabay, 47.6% for Peretz.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 10, 2017, 01:26:00 PM
Ha! well, he'll soon find out Peretz is a sour loser


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 10, 2017, 01:31:05 PM
Winners of tonight: Yechimovic, Shaffir. Losers: Herzog (again), Margalit, Michaeli, Nissenkorn, PLP.

I expect a rupture soon, majority of MKs and establishment figures went with Peretz who is a notorious sour loser.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Kingpoleon on July 10, 2017, 02:26:57 PM
Weird.

It seems like Gabbay is getting the more economically left-wing MKs and Peretz is getting the more economically right-wing MKs, which is the exact opposite of what I would have expected based on past information.

Am I reading this right? Or is everyone going to jump on me and say "ECONOMICS ARE A NON-ISSUE IN ISRAEL!" and it's purely a matter of establishment vs. anti-establishment?
I find this to be an interesting question.

Does anyone have a good answer?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on July 10, 2017, 05:25:41 PM
Weird.

It seems like Gabbay is getting the more economically left-wing MKs and Peretz is getting the more economically right-wing MKs, which is the exact opposite of what I would have expected based on past information.

Am I reading this right? Or is everyone going to jump on me and say "ECONOMICS ARE A NON-ISSUE IN ISRAEL!" and it's purely a matter of establishment vs. anti-establishment?
I find this to be an interesting question.

Does anyone have a good answer?

I think Mortimer has it about right, it's more about different camps and style than differences in economic ideologies.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on July 10, 2017, 11:02:31 PM
Has the Nissenkorn vs Yachimovich race happened yet? If not, when?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 11, 2017, 02:05:27 AM
Has the Nissenkorn vs Yachimovich race happened yet? If not, when?
It did, Nissenkorn won by a lot.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 11, 2017, 02:27:50 AM
Weird.

It seems like Gabbay is getting the more economically left-wing MKs and Peretz is getting the more economically right-wing MKs, which is the exact opposite of what I would have expected based on past information.

Am I reading this right? Or is everyone going to jump on me and say "ECONOMICS ARE A NON-ISSUE IN ISRAEL!" and it's purely a matter of establishment vs. anti-establishment?
I find this to be an interesting question.

Does anyone have a good answer?

I think Mortimer has it about right, it's more about different camps and style than differences in economic ideologies.
This. I think the last purely ideaological fights in Labour were in the 70's

It looks like Gabay carried most  Bar Lev/Margalit voters, it seems Shaffer/Yechimovic had more effect on their vote than Margalit's endorsement


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 11, 2017, 01:27:12 PM
Fresh polls conducted after Gabay was elected (I took part in one). grain of salt yada yada


channel 2:
Likud - 25
Labour - 20
Lapid - 18
JH - 13
JAL - 13
Kulano - 8
UTJ - 7
Liberman - 6
Shas - 5
Meretz - 5

Gabay drank back voters who went to Lapid but also siphoned some of Kachlon and a little bit of Meretz. Can't see any clear effect on Likud

Channel 10
Likud - 29
Labour - 24
Lapid - 16
JH - 14
JAL - 8
Liberman - 7
Kachlon - 6
UTJ - 6
Shas - 5
Meretz - 5

I find this poll to be completely garbage.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 12, 2017, 09:15:27 AM
Herzog will remain the leader of the opposition in the Knesset along with the privileges of the post. This is going to be weird, as the leader of the opposition gets 1 on 1 meeting with every foreign leader visiting Gabay will have to tag along. I wonder if Bibi will permit him to join to monthly intelligence briefing with the leader of the opposition...he could pull a stunt there.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 12, 2017, 12:42:56 PM
Herzog will remain the leader of the opposition in the Knesset along with the privileges of the post. This is going to be weird, as the leader of the opposition gets 1 on 1 meeting with every foreign leader visiting Gabay will have to tag along. I wonder if Bibi will permit him to join to monthly intelligence briefing with the leader of the opposition...he could pull a stunt there.

A big mistake. Should've chosen someone like Margalit, Shaffir or even Peretz, just not Herzog.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 12, 2017, 12:57:27 PM
Herzog will remain the leader of the opposition in the Knesset along with the privileges of the post. This is going to be weird, as the leader of the opposition gets 1 on 1 meeting with every foreign leader visiting Gabay will have to tag along. I wonder if Bibi will permit him to join to monthly intelligence briefing with the leader of the opposition...he could pull a stunt there.

A big mistake. Should've chosen someone like Margalit, Shaffir or even Peretz, just not Herzog.
I think he was risk averse, he can't really pick who it get's to be as only MKs vote to decide, he didn't want any unpleasant surprises happening so early. Plus, Herzog wouldn't steal the spotlight, Margalit and Peretz...
Shaffir is too young to take on such a role


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 12, 2017, 01:37:35 PM
What is YB's position on the Western Wall issue?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 12, 2017, 01:56:30 PM
What is YB's position on the Western Wall issue?
YB?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Santander on July 12, 2017, 02:00:15 PM
I assume Yisrael Beiteinu?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 12, 2017, 02:26:26 PM
Never saw it, it's also not really a party. Their position is they don't care, it's not an issue for their voters. Russians are either atheists or hardcore converts to orthodoxy. Reform Judaism didn't really reach them.

Honestly I don't care either, not for the reforms or for this matter


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 12, 2017, 02:28:53 PM
Yeah, Yisrael Beiteinu. I know their voters don't care but was still interested, because I do care and YB taking a position I really couldn't stomach would be a disappointment to me.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 12, 2017, 02:34:29 PM
Yeah, Yisrael Beiteinu. I know their voters don't care but was still interested, because I do care and YB taking a position I really couldn't stomach would be a disappointment to me.

I'm not sure, but I think they supported the compromise and made noises of disapproval when it was rejected, along with the conversion reform (which IS important to their voters since the Chief Rabbinate is disgustingly cruel to Russian immigrants).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Santander on July 14, 2017, 11:12:56 AM
http://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/1.801194

Israeli government negotiating Hajj flights from Tel Aviv to Jeddah for Israeli Muslims.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: NewYorkExpress on August 01, 2017, 08:46:04 PM
http://jewishjournal.com/news/israel/222404/jared-kushner-israeli-palestinian-peace-may-no-solution/ (http://jewishjournal.com/news/israel/222404/jared-kushner-israeli-palestinian-peace-may-no-solution/)

Quote

If Jared Kushner is the only person who can deliver Middle East peace — as his father-in-law Donald Trump said — he comes off as a reluctant savior.

In a speech delivered Monday to a group of congressional interns and leaked to the media, Kushner expounded on the Trump administration’s efforts to achieve Israeli-Palestinian peace. What emerged was an outlook that at once was resolutely pro-Israel and skeptical of the chances of success.

“So what do we offer that’s unique? I don’t know,” Kushner said in his seven-minute answer to an intern’s question in a recording obtained by Wired magazine. “And we’re trying to work with the parties very quietly to see if there’s a solution. And there may be no solution, but it’s one of the problem sets that the president asked us to focus on.”
 
Kushner traveled to the region in June along with President Trump’s chief negotiator, Jason Greenblatt, to meet with Israeli and Palestinian stakeholders and suss out the chances of reaching a peace deal. It’s among a bevy of issues that Kushner has taken on as a senior adviser to his father-in-law — including criminal justice reform, streamlining the federal government, stemming the opioid addiction crisis and more.

In the speech, Kushner sounds unenthused to be handling the peace process. He opens his answer by saying “this is one of the ones I was asked to take on,” and becomes more pessimistic from there, criticizing Israeli and Palestinian leaders for being mired in history and unable to let go of minor provocations.

“You know everyone finds an issue, that ‘you have to understand what they did then,’ and ‘you have to understand that they did this,’” Kushner said. “But how does that help us get peace? Let’s not focus on that. We don’t want a history lesson. We’ve read enough books.”

He also made some questionable claims. Kushner said that “not a whole lot has been accomplished over the last 40 or 50 years we’ve been doing this,” apparently dismissing Israeli peace pacts with Egypt and Jordan, the Israeli-Palestinian Oslo Accords and Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza. Then he said “the variables haven’t been changed much” — something that both Israeli and Palestinian officials would fiercely dispute. Israelis charge that their withdrawals from territory have been met only with terror and incitement, while the Palestinians claim growing Israeli settlements are making a Palestinian state near impossible.

I'm not sure it's politic to tell anyone there's no solution to the longest running Middle East crisis.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on August 05, 2017, 04:52:27 AM
Netanyahu's former CoS flipped and became a key witness for the prosecution in 2 criminal investigations (one of corruption), indictment is inbound. The glorious leader appears determined to refuse to go as the law (not a statute though but it doesn't matter as we are a common law country) requires. His political partners are lukewarm about playing the role of ushering him out, so we might be heading into quite a political and constitutional conundrum (some like myself will also predict some military conflict inbound)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: NewYorkExpress on August 05, 2017, 02:15:41 PM
Netanyahu's former CoS flipped and became a key witness for the prosecution in 2 criminal investigations (one of corruption), indictment is inbound. The glorious leader appears determined to refuse to go as the law (not a statute though but it doesn't matter as we are a common law country) requires. His political partners are lukewarm about playing the role of ushering him out, so we might be heading into quite a political and constitutional conundrum (some like myself will also predict some military conflict inbound)

That's not good... who would take over if Netanyahu stepped down/was convicted? Avigdor Lieberman?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on August 05, 2017, 02:21:42 PM
Netanyahu's former CoS flipped and became a key witness for the prosecution in 2 criminal investigations (one of corruption), indictment is inbound. The glorious leader appears determined to refuse to go as the law (not a statute though but it doesn't matter as we are a common law country) requires. His political partners are lukewarm about playing the role of ushering him out, so we might be heading into quite a political and constitutional conundrum (some like myself will also predict some military conflict inbound)

Let's see if an indictment actually happens. I'm still doubtful it will. If it does, he needs to resign. But, until that day (if it ever comes), I still think a lot of this nonsense is unsubstantiated.

Israeli Police are an utter joke when it comes to political corruption and are, imo, much more corrupt than the politicians themselves.



Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on August 05, 2017, 02:58:55 PM
Netanyahu's former CoS flipped and became a key witness for the prosecution in 2 criminal investigations (one of corruption), indictment is inbound. The glorious leader appears determined to refuse to go as the law (not a statute though but it doesn't matter as we are a common law country) requires. His political partners are lukewarm about playing the role of ushering him out, so we might be heading into quite a political and constitutional conundrum (some like myself will also predict some military conflict inbound)

Let's see if an indictment actually happens. I'm still doubtful it will. If it does, he needs to resign. But, until that day (if it ever comes), I still think a lot of this nonsense is unsubstantiated.

Israeli Police are an utter joke when it comes to political corruption and are, imo, much more corrupt than the politicians themselves.



It's pretty obvious that Netanyahu is corrupt to the bone, and there seems to be hard evidence. In fact, it's been obvious for a long time, just like it's obvious that Lieberman is corrupt in even worse ways.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MaxQue on August 06, 2017, 02:03:36 PM
Netanyahu's former CoS flipped and became a key witness for the prosecution in 2 criminal investigations (one of corruption), indictment is inbound. The glorious leader appears determined to refuse to go as the law (not a statute though but it doesn't matter as we are a common law country) requires. His political partners are lukewarm about playing the role of ushering him out, so we might be heading into quite a political and constitutional conundrum (some like myself will also predict some military conflict inbound)

Let's see if an indictment actually happens. I'm still doubtful it will. If it does, he needs to resign. But, until that day (if it ever comes), I still think a lot of this nonsense is unsubstantiated.

Israeli Police are an utter joke when it comes to political corruption and are, imo, much more corrupt than the politicians themselves.



It's pretty obvious that Netanyahu is corrupt to the bone, and there seems to be hard evidence. In fact, it's been obvious for a long time, just like it's obvious that Lieberman is corrupt in even worse ways.

He also tries to ban media critical of him.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on August 06, 2017, 02:41:06 PM
Netanyahu's former CoS flipped and became a key witness for the prosecution in 2 criminal investigations (one of corruption), indictment is inbound. The glorious leader appears determined to refuse to go as the law (not a statute though but it doesn't matter as we are a common law country) requires. His political partners are lukewarm about playing the role of ushering him out, so we might be heading into quite a political and constitutional conundrum (some like myself will also predict some military conflict inbound)

Let's see if an indictment actually happens. I'm still doubtful it will. If it does, he needs to resign. But, until that day (if it ever comes), I still think a lot of this nonsense is unsubstantiated.

Israeli Police are an utter joke when it comes to political corruption and are, imo, much more corrupt than the politicians themselves.



It's pretty obvious that Netanyahu is corrupt to the bone, and there seems to be hard evidence. In fact, it's been obvious for a long time, just like it's obvious that Lieberman is corrupt in even worse ways.

He also tries to ban media critical of him.

If you are referring to Al Jazeera, that's complete B.S. He is not trying to shut them down because of criticism  but because of their sponsorship of terror.




Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MaxQue on August 06, 2017, 03:33:11 PM
Netanyahu's former CoS flipped and became a key witness for the prosecution in 2 criminal investigations (one of corruption), indictment is inbound. The glorious leader appears determined to refuse to go as the law (not a statute though but it doesn't matter as we are a common law country) requires. His political partners are lukewarm about playing the role of ushering him out, so we might be heading into quite a political and constitutional conundrum (some like myself will also predict some military conflict inbound)

Let's see if an indictment actually happens. I'm still doubtful it will. If it does, he needs to resign. But, until that day (if it ever comes), I still think a lot of this nonsense is unsubstantiated.

Israeli Police are an utter joke when it comes to political corruption and are, imo, much more corrupt than the politicians themselves.



It's pretty obvious that Netanyahu is corrupt to the bone, and there seems to be hard evidence. In fact, it's been obvious for a long time, just like it's obvious that Lieberman is corrupt in even worse ways.

He also tries to ban media critical of him.

If you are referring to Al Jazeera, that's complete B.S. He is not trying to shut them down because of criticism  but because of their sponsorship of terror.

So, the same baseless lie peddled by the real sponsor of terrorism, Saudi Arabia.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on August 08, 2017, 02:32:20 PM
Netanyahu's former CoS flipped and became a key witness for the prosecution in 2 criminal investigations (one of corruption), indictment is inbound. The glorious leader appears determined to refuse to go as the law (not a statute though but it doesn't matter as we are a common law country) requires. His political partners are lukewarm about playing the role of ushering him out, so we might be heading into quite a political and constitutional conundrum (some like myself will also predict some military conflict inbound)

Let's see if an indictment actually happens. I'm still doubtful it will. If it does, he needs to resign. But, until that day (if it ever comes), I still think a lot of this nonsense is unsubstantiated.

Israeli Police are an utter joke when it comes to political corruption and are, imo, much more corrupt than the politicians themselves.


Sorry but the evidence is pretty solid, if it were anyone but him he would have been behind bars months ago. The manuscripts of his talks with the editor of Yediot prove corruption allegations beyond any reasonable doubt by them self


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on August 16, 2017, 07:16:37 AM
Prime Minister Netanyahu took days to disavow the neo-nazis, marching on the streets and shouting that "Jews won't replace us". He took days to discover that "everyone needs to oppose this". And he didn't even squeak about Trump's terrible response to it- I do wonder how he'd respond to Obama botching his response to nazis in the same way.
Meanwhile, MK Oren Hazan, who is himself a ridiculous attempt to mimick Trump, said that "Trump is right about violence on both sides". He equated people who shout nazi and terribly antisemitic warcries to leftist protestors.
And then there's Netanyahu's son and heir apparent, Yair, who posted that the nazis are "a thing of the past" and that the real threat is antifa.

I'm sorry, but the Israeli right is morally bankrupt. I will never vote for Likud, at least not until it's cleansed of elements such as Oren Hazan, Miri Regev and yes, Benjamin Netanyahu.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Kingpoleon on August 16, 2017, 04:59:04 PM
Parrotguy, do you think the next election will see a coalition of Zionist Union, Kulanu, and Yesh Atid? Or would Meretz probably have to be included?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on August 16, 2017, 05:06:09 PM
Parrotguy, do you think the next election will see a coalition of Zionist Union, Kulanu, and Yesh Atid? Or would Meretz probably have to be included?

Nope, this won't hurt Netanyahu. I believe he's going to be indicted soon, so the likeliest scenario in the next election is another Likud coalition, probably with a different leader. But I just felt so much disgust when I saw people who claim to be the most zionist in the world fail so much at disavowing Nazis out of pure political interest.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Kingpoleon on August 17, 2017, 04:11:39 PM
Parrotguy, do you think the next election will see a coalition of Zionist Union, Kulanu, and Yesh Atid? Or would Meretz probably have to be included?

Nope, this won't hurt Netanyahu. I believe he's going to be indicted soon, so the likeliest scenario in the next election is another Likud coalition, probably with a different leader. But I just felt so much disgust when I saw people who claim to be the most zionist in the world fail so much at disavowing Nazis out of pure political interest.

Ze'ev Elkin, Tzachi Hanegbi, Avi Dichter, Miri Regev, or Nir Barkat are my ideal choices to replace Netanyahu, though I suspect Erdan or Edelstein will succeed Netanyahu.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on August 17, 2017, 04:15:11 PM
Parrotguy, do you think the next election will see a coalition of Zionist Union, Kulanu, and Yesh Atid? Or would Meretz probably have to be included?

Nope, this won't hurt Netanyahu. I believe he's going to be indicted soon, so the likeliest scenario in the next election is another Likud coalition, probably with a different leader. But I just felt so much disgust when I saw people who claim to be the most zionist in the world fail so much at disavowing Nazis out of pure political interest.

Ze'ev Elkin, Tzachi Hanegbi, Avi Dichter, Miri Regev, or Nir Barkat are my ideal choices to replace Netanyahu, though I suspect Erdan or Edelstein will succeed Netanyahu.

You truly want Prime Minister Miri Regev? She's the complete opposite of most politicians you seem to support. That would really make me start planning how to immigrate.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Kingpoleon on August 17, 2017, 04:25:17 PM
Parrotguy, do you think the next election will see a coalition of Zionist Union, Kulanu, and Yesh Atid? Or would Meretz probably have to be included?

Nope, this won't hurt Netanyahu. I believe he's going to be indicted soon, so the likeliest scenario in the next election is another Likud coalition, probably with a different leader. But I just felt so much disgust when I saw people who claim to be the most zionist in the world fail so much at disavowing Nazis out of pure political interest.

Ze'ev Elkin, Tzachi Hanegbi, Avi Dichter, Miri Regev, or Nir Barkat are my ideal choices to replace Netanyahu, though I suspect Erdan or Edelstein will succeed Netanyahu.

You truly want Prime Minister Miri Regev? She's the complete opposite of most politicians you seem to support. That would really make me start planning how to immigrate.

I don't support her at all on immigration or Palestine, but so many other issues come into play when dealing with a party as bad as Likud. If Likud were to elect a female who supports SSM and LGBT+ rights, I truly believe it would keep the... worse elements of Likud from stepping forwards.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on August 17, 2017, 04:30:49 PM
Parrotguy, do you think the next election will see a coalition of Zionist Union, Kulanu, and Yesh Atid? Or would Meretz probably have to be included?

Nope, this won't hurt Netanyahu. I believe he's going to be indicted soon, so the likeliest scenario in the next election is another Likud coalition, probably with a different leader. But I just felt so much disgust when I saw people who claim to be the most zionist in the world fail so much at disavowing Nazis out of pure political interest.

Ze'ev Elkin, Tzachi Hanegbi, Avi Dichter, Miri Regev, or Nir Barkat are my ideal choices to replace Netanyahu, though I suspect Erdan or Edelstein will succeed Netanyahu.

You truly want Prime Minister Miri Regev? She's the complete opposite of most politicians you seem to support. That would really make me start planning how to immigrate.

I don't support her at all on immigration or Palestine, but so many other issues come into play when dealing with a party as bad as Likud. If Likud were to elect a female who supports SSM and LGBT+ rights, I truly believe it would keep the... worse elements of Likud from stepping forwards.


Regev IS the worst elements, a populist loudmouth who basically wears a personality which, as she herself admitted, appeals to the "warm Likud members". Her allegedly moderate position on LGBT rights is shared by many Likud members, and like all of them, including MK Amir Ohana (who's gay himself), she never votes or does anything substantial to help the LGBT community. She's a fraud and in my opinion would be worse than Trump.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on August 17, 2017, 05:08:07 PM
I like Regev, but I don't think she should be PM. I'll likely keep supporting Bibi unless he's indicted. Ideally, I want Nir Barkat to succeed Bibi as PM.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on August 17, 2017, 07:12:58 PM
My comments are basically being randomly deleted at this point.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on August 17, 2017, 08:10:23 PM
http://forward.com/opinion/380384/richard-spencer-might-be-the-worst-person-in-america-but-hes-right-about-is/?attribution=tag-article-listing-1-headline


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Horus on August 17, 2017, 08:21:35 PM
http://forward.com/opinion/380384/richard-spencer-might-be-the-worst-person-in-america-but-hes-right-about-is/?attribution=tag-article-listing-1-headline

Excellent article.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Kingpoleon on August 17, 2017, 08:33:28 PM
Parrotguy, do you think the next election will see a coalition of Zionist Union, Kulanu, and Yesh Atid? Or would Meretz probably have to be included?

Nope, this won't hurt Netanyahu. I believe he's going to be indicted soon, so the likeliest scenario in the next election is another Likud coalition, probably with a different leader. But I just felt so much disgust when I saw people who claim to be the most zionist in the world fail so much at disavowing Nazis out of pure political interest.

Ze'ev Elkin, Tzachi Hanegbi, Avi Dichter, Miri Regev, or Nir Barkat are my ideal choices to replace Netanyahu, though I suspect Erdan or Edelstein will succeed Netanyahu.

You truly want Prime Minister Miri Regev? She's the complete opposite of most politicians you seem to support. That would really make me start planning how to immigrate.

I don't support her at all on immigration or Palestine, but so many other issues come into play when dealing with a party as bad as Likud. If Likud were to elect a female who supports SSM and LGBT+ rights, I truly believe it would keep the... worse elements of Likud from stepping forwards.


Regev IS the worst elements, a populist loudmouth who basically wears a personality which, as she herself admitted, appeals to the "warm Likud members". Her allegedly moderate position on LGBT rights is shared by many Likud members, and like all of them, including MK Amir Ohana (who's gay himself), she never votes or does anything substantial to help the LGBT community. She's a fraud and in my opinion would be worse than Trump.

She's the highest ranking member I know of to support LGBT rights, and she's not an "old guard" extremist.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: dead0man on August 17, 2017, 09:00:21 PM
My comments are basically being randomly deleted at this point.
welcome to the new and improved International Board!


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on August 18, 2017, 08:22:11 AM
Parrotguy, do you think the next election will see a coalition of Zionist Union, Kulanu, and Yesh Atid? Or would Meretz probably have to be included?

Nope, this won't hurt Netanyahu. I believe he's going to be indicted soon, so the likeliest scenario in the next election is another Likud coalition, probably with a different leader. But I just felt so much disgust when I saw people who claim to be the most zionist in the world fail so much at disavowing Nazis out of pure political interest.

Ze'ev Elkin, Tzachi Hanegbi, Avi Dichter, Miri Regev, or Nir Barkat are my ideal choices to replace Netanyahu, though I suspect Erdan or Edelstein will succeed Netanyahu.

You truly want Prime Minister Miri Regev? She's the complete opposite of most politicians you seem to support. That would really make me start planning how to immigrate.

I don't support her at all on immigration or Palestine, but so many other issues come into play when dealing with a party as bad as Likud. If Likud were to elect a female who supports SSM and LGBT+ rights, I truly believe it would keep the... worse elements of Likud from stepping forwards.


Regev IS the worst elements, a populist loudmouth who basically wears a personality which, as she herself admitted, appeals to the "warm Likud members". Her allegedly moderate position on LGBT rights is shared by many Likud members, and like all of them, including MK Amir Ohana (who's gay himself), she never votes or does anything substantial to help the LGBT community. She's a fraud and in my opinion would be worse than Trump.

She's the highest ranking member I know of to support LGBT rights, and she's not an "old guard" extremist.
Define support gay rights. You won't see her voting for SSM. I don't know what old guard extremist means but she's the worst kind of populist. But it's a void talk, she's not going to lead Likud.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on August 18, 2017, 10:45:02 AM
Regev is one of those people who managed to rise through the ranks of Likud because she's popular among the base while not actually smart enough to pose a serious threat to Bibi.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Kingpoleon on August 19, 2017, 09:19:08 PM
An Old Guard person in America is typically someone who vehemently defends the policies of the past, and is typically advanced in years. An Old Guard extremist would be someone like Robert Taft or Walter Judd in the 1960s.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on August 20, 2017, 06:07:06 AM
What are the positions of the likely successors to Bibi on the Palestinian issue?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on August 20, 2017, 09:23:05 AM
Gilad Erdan: Basically the same as Netanyahu but doesn't even bother to pay lip service to the idea of a Palestinian state in the course of supporting the indefinite continuation of the status quo.

Yuli-Yoel Edelstein: Same

Gideon Saar: Same

Miri Regev: Same

Yisrael Katz: Same but wants to build a giant artificial island in the Mediterranean.

Ze'ev Elkin: Former member of Kadima so he supported a Palestinian state at one point but he definitely doesn't anymore.

Tzachi Hanegbi: Former member of Kadima so he supported a Palestinian state at one point but I don't think he has bothered to be explicit since then.

Avi Dichter: Former member of Kadima so he supported a Palestinian state at one point and I think he may actually still back one hypothetically

Nir Barkat: Don't know for sure but I'm guessing he was pro-Palestinian state in the past but it doesn't matter. He could be anything at this point. Nothing too out of the ordinary though.

Basically no candidate is likely to shift the Overton window much at all. If there was going to be a candidate to do that, to run on a platform of annexation of the West Bank, it would be Tzipi Hotovely.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on September 09, 2017, 06:56:24 AM
Netanyahu's son posted a meme smelling of antisemitism against his father's opposition, edited from a blatantly antisemitic meme. He even added Soros to the new meme, as if it wasn't antisemitic enough.

News at 11.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on September 09, 2017, 02:58:50 PM
Netanyahu's son posted a meme smelling of antisemitism against his father's opposition, edited from a blatantly antisemitic meme. He even added Soros to the new meme, as if it wasn't antisemitic enough.

News at 11.

Got a link? I want to see how one Semite accuses another Semite of being anti-Semitic.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on September 09, 2017, 04:44:44 PM
Netanyahu's son posted a meme smelling of antisemitism against his father's opposition, edited from a blatantly antisemitic meme. He even added Soros to the new meme, as if it wasn't antisemitic enough.

News at 11.

Got a link? I want to see how one Semite accuses another Semite of being anti-Semitic.

I do not accuse him of being antisemitic, not at all. But I do accuse him of ignorance and of foolishly encouraging antisemitic rhetoric.

Here: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.811374


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on September 09, 2017, 06:39:12 PM
I looked at this Facebook page that Yair Netanyahu recommended and where he got his meme from, and the problem isn't that it's anti-Semitic, it's isn't (contrary to what some journalists seem to think, using Pepe memes doesn't mean your'e Anti-Semitic).

 What it is though is full of Trumpian style crap where "haha leftist tears" becomes a goal, and it supports violence against leftists and blames all its opponents of anti-Semitism, and has strong support for Pinochet.

 So despite not agreeing with the whole anti-Semitic part, I'm certainly not pleased with the PM's son sharing this kind of crap.

Also, just like with Trump, memes and violent rhetoric against leftists comes instead of actual ideological conservatism, which the website doesn't have much of. It's just low brow pro Likud pro Bibi site that spends a lot of its time attacking Feiglin.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on September 09, 2017, 06:48:01 PM
I looked at this Facebook page that Yair Netanyahu recommended and where he got his meme from, and the problem isn't that it's anti-Semitic, it's isn't (contrary to what some journalists seem to think, using Pepe memes doesn't mean your'e Anti-Semitic).

 What it is though is full of Trumpian style crap where "haha leftist tears" becomes a goal, and it supports violence against leftists and blames all its opponents of anti-Semitism, and has strong support for Pinochet.

 So despite not agreeing with the whole anti-Semitic part, I'm certainly not pleased with the PM's son sharing this kind of crap.

As I said, I do agree that this page is not antisemitic. But the use of an originally antisemitic meme, replacing the stereotyped "Jewish face" with real life Jews like Soros and Ehud Barak, certainly isn't doing any favours and, I'd say, could embolden actual Anti-Semitism. Also, getting complimented by David Duke for a meme you shared isn't something one should strive for.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on September 10, 2017, 02:45:52 AM
Netanyahu's son posted a meme smelling of antisemitism against his father's opposition, edited from a blatantly antisemitic meme. He even added Soros to the new meme, as if it wasn't antisemitic enough.

News at 11.

Got a link? I want to see how one Semite accuses another Semite of being anti-Semitic.

I do not accuse him of being antisemitic, not at all. But I do accuse him of ignorance and of foolishly encouraging antisemitic rhetoric.

Here: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.811374

Fair enough. My mistake.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on September 10, 2017, 02:56:49 AM
We're witnessing a split in world Jewry right before our eyes. It's been a long time coming but it's finally happening. Current official leftism is completely incompatible with Zionism. Half of the Jewish diaspora (a majority of Jews under 35) are going to become uniformly anti-Zionist and leftist. The older, Zionist Jews are going to be forced to embrace the right, reluctantly or not. This meme is historic.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on September 10, 2017, 06:39:57 AM
Yair Netanyahu is based af.

We're witnessing a split in world Jewry right before our eyes. It's been a long time coming but it's finally happening. Current official leftism is completely incompatible with Zionism. Half of the Jewish diaspora (a majority of Jews under 35) are going to become uniformly anti-Zionist and leftist. The older, Zionist Jews are going to be forced to embrace the right, reluctantly or not. This meme is historic.
Nah.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on September 10, 2017, 07:17:45 AM
I looked at this Facebook page that Yair Netanyahu recommended and where he got his meme from, and the problem isn't that it's anti-Semitic, it's isn't (contrary to what some journalists seem to think, using Pepe memes doesn't mean your'e Anti-Semitic).

 What it is though is full of Trumpian style crap where "haha leftist tears" becomes a goal, and it supports violence against leftists and blames all its opponents of anti-Semitism, and has strong support for Pinochet.

 So despite not agreeing with the whole anti-Semitic part, I'm certainly not pleased with the PM's son sharing this kind of crap.

Also, just like with Trump, memes and violent rhetoric against leftists comes instead of actual ideological conservatism, which the website doesn't have much of. It's just low brow pro Likud pro Bibi site that spends a lot of its time attacking Feiglin.
That page is also overtly homophobic (look at the name) and anti woman.  It's an exact copycat of an alt right page

Anyway his previous attack on Olmert's son led to the latter absolutely bashing him on Facebook, so may this trend continues, he may be a "heir" in his mind but his public image is being shattered by his media actions as a total wanker


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Santander on September 10, 2017, 02:22:24 PM
Interestingly, certain elements of the alt-right actually draw inspiration from Israel.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on September 12, 2017, 12:31:45 PM
SC struck down the draft law (which had all sorts of loops and quotas deemed unconstitutional). Now this was expected during the legislation but the Israeli law angle is uninteresting here. politically: if someone was looking for an issue to topple the government then ding ding ding. (Haredi parties will die for this)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: The Mikado on September 13, 2017, 12:08:44 AM
SC struck down the draft law (which had all sorts of loops and quotas deemed unconstitutional). Now this was expected during the legislation but the Israeli law angle is uninteresting here. politically: if someone was looking for an issue to topple the government then ding ding ding. (Haredi parties will die for this)

UTJ and Shas will be furious, but are they furious at the government or just at the courts? I'm not sure why they'd leave Netanyahu's government and provoke an early election when the government isn't the reason that the law was struck down.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on September 13, 2017, 03:46:51 AM
SC struck down the draft law (which had all sorts of loops and quotas deemed unconstitutional). Now this was expected during the legislation but the Israeli law angle is uninteresting here. politically: if someone was looking for an issue to topple the government then ding ding ding. (Haredi parties will die for this)

UTJ and Shas will be furious, but are they furious at the government or just at the courts? I'm not sure why they'd leave Netanyahu's government and provoke an early election when the government isn't the reason that the law was struck down.
They'll want a new bill even more in their favor, the government can't provide.

In other news MK Guetta of Shaw was forced to resign for attending a gay wedding


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on September 13, 2017, 03:51:12 AM
SC struck down the draft law (which had all sorts of loops and quotas deemed unconstitutional). Now this was expected during the legislation but the Israeli law angle is uninteresting here. politically: if someone was looking for an issue to topple the government then ding ding ding. (Haredi parties will die for this)

UTJ and Shas will be furious, but are they furious at the government or just at the courts? I'm not sure why they'd leave Netanyahu's government and provoke an early election when the government isn't the reason that the law was struck down.
They'll want a new bill even more in their favor, the government can't provide.

In other news MK Guetta of Shaw was forced to resign for attending a gay wedding

According to Haaretz, Litzman said that the Supreme Court overturned the draft law because it's trying to bring down the government. So yes, seems you're right.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on September 13, 2017, 05:05:16 AM
SC struck down the draft law (which had all sorts of loops and quotas deemed unconstitutional). Now this was expected during the legislation but the Israeli law angle is uninteresting here. politically: if someone was looking for an issue to topple the government then ding ding ding. (Haredi parties will die for this)

UTJ and Shas will be furious, but are they furious at the government or just at the courts? I'm not sure why they'd leave Netanyahu's government and provoke an early election when the government isn't the reason that the law was struck down.
They'll want a new bill even more in their favor, the government can't provide.

In other news MK Guetta of Shaw was forced to resign for attending a gay wedding

According to Haaretz, Litzman said that the Supreme Court overturned the draft law because it's trying to bring down the government. So yes, seems you're right.
In general SC has been very active yesterday, in what went unnoticed but bothers Haredi MKs even more it ruled that you can present some sort of an alternative Kosher certificate (while stating it's not official).

now that hurts their pockets...


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: NewYorkExpress on September 17, 2017, 02:53:23 PM
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-israel-protest/ultra-orthodox-protesters-arrested-in-violent-clash-in-jerusalem-idUKKCN1BS0U8 (https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-israel-protest/ultra-orthodox-protesters-arrested-in-violent-clash-in-jerusalem-idUKKCN1BS0U8)

Quote
Jewish ultra-Orthodox demonstrators protesting the arrest of a prospective army conscript from their community clashed with police in Jerusalem on Sunday and eight men were detained, police said.

Police used a water canon and mounted officers dispersed the protest that briefly turned violent near Jerusalem’s military recruiting office which lies on the edge of one of the city’s ultra-Orthodox neighbourhoods.

Although most ultra-Orthodox seminary students gain exemption from military service on religious grounds, they must obtain their exemption through a conscription procedure. Police said the protest was prompted by the man’s arrest after he refused to turn up for recruitment.

Police spokeswoman Luba Samri said protesters blocked streets and threw stones at police officers. Video footage showed officers kicking, punching and pushing some demonstrators and a few were dragged across a street


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on September 18, 2017, 01:28:29 PM
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-israel-protest/ultra-orthodox-protesters-arrested-in-violent-clash-in-jerusalem-idUKKCN1BS0U8 (https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-israel-protest/ultra-orthodox-protesters-arrested-in-violent-clash-in-jerusalem-idUKKCN1BS0U8)

Quote
Jewish ultra-Orthodox demonstrators protesting the arrest of a prospective army conscript from their community clashed with police in Jerusalem on Sunday and eight men were detained, police said.

Police used a water canon and mounted officers dispersed the protest that briefly turned violent near Jerusalem’s military recruiting office which lies on the edge of one of the city’s ultra-Orthodox neighbourhoods.

Although most ultra-Orthodox seminary students gain exemption from military service on religious grounds, they must obtain their exemption through a conscription procedure. Police said the protest was prompted by the man’s arrest after he refused to turn up for recruitment.

Police spokeswoman Luba Samri said protesters blocked streets and threw stones at police officers. Video footage showed officers kicking, punching and pushing some demonstrators and a few were dragged across a street
That lad is a grandson of some big Rabbi of the extremist sect that aren't even wiling to go file exemption forms.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on September 18, 2017, 04:57:29 PM
Are there any other religious groups in Israel that get such a ludicrously unsustainable sweetheart deal?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on September 18, 2017, 05:08:57 PM
Are there any other religious groups in Israel that get such a ludicrously unsustainable sweetheart deal?

I guess most Muslim and Christian religious leaders in Israel are satisfied with their monopoly over marriage, with no civic option. And they don't have to serve in the army, either. But the Haredim really are a special case- their outsized political power lets them trample over the general population on their way to enforcing religious laws and earning special benefits for their population.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on September 19, 2017, 08:14:35 AM
Are there any other religious groups in Israel that get such a ludicrously unsustainable sweetheart deal?
Cancel the mandatory draft. This deal is sweet only to their politicians and elite, most of those young lads are trapped in a life of poverty due to it.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Santander on September 27, 2017, 09:04:18 AM
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.814579 (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.814579)

Elor Azaria's sentence reduced to 14 months by IDF Chief of Staff.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on September 28, 2017, 03:22:22 PM
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.814579 (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.814579)

Elor Azaria's sentence reduced to 14 months by IDF Chief of Staff.
Great news, though it remains a disgrace that he was sentenced for doing his job in the first place.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on September 28, 2017, 05:56:25 PM
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.814579 (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.814579)

Elor Azaria's sentence reduced to 14 months by IDF Chief of Staff.
Great news, though it remains a disgrace that he was sentenced for doing his job in the first place.

This is objectively false because it's not only not his job but also against the rules, but we shouldn't get into that.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on September 29, 2017, 07:47:53 AM
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.814579 (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.814579)

Elor Azaria's sentence reduced to 14 months by IDF Chief of Staff.
Great news, though it remains a disgrace that he was sentenced for doing his job in the first place.
This is objectively false because it's not only not his job but also against the rules, but we shouldn't get into that.
I do not deny that it was against the rules of engagement, which reflects badly on these rules of engagement rather than on Azaria, but Israeli soldiers are there to neutralize (preferably once and for all) terrorist threats and keep Israel safe, and that's exactly what Azaria did. Gmar hatima tova.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on September 29, 2017, 10:01:39 AM
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.814579 (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.814579)

Elor Azaria's sentence reduced to 14 months by IDF Chief of Staff.
Great news, though it remains a disgrace that he was sentenced for doing his job in the first place.
This is objectively false because it's not only not his job but also against the rules, but we shouldn't get into that.
I do not deny that it was against the rules of engagement, which reflects badly on these rules of engagement rather than on Azaria, but Israeli soldiers are there to neutralize (preferably once and for all) terrorist threats and keep Israel safe, and that's exactly what Azaria did. Gmar hatima tova.
What Azaria did was from the standpoint of neutralizing terrorism counterproductive. It wasn't even whack-a-mole, but whack-a-hydra.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MaxQue on September 29, 2017, 03:32:23 PM
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.814579 (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.814579)

Elor Azaria's sentence reduced to 14 months by IDF Chief of Staff.
Great news, though it remains a disgrace that he was sentenced for doing his job in the first place.
This is objectively false because it's not only not his job but also against the rules, but we shouldn't get into that.
I do not deny that it was against the rules of engagement, which reflects badly on these rules of engagement rather than on Azaria, but Israeli soldiers are there to neutralize (preferably once and for all) terrorist threats and keep Israel safe, and that's exactly what Azaria did. Gmar hatima tova.

That's nonsense and you know it.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: NewYorkExpress on October 01, 2017, 04:18:50 PM
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.815170 (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.815170)

Quote
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu apologized Sunday after facing criticism for the fact that neither he nor any members of his cabinet attended the state ceremony for Israel’s fallen in the 1973 Yom Kippur War, held earlier in the day at Jerusalem’s Mount Herzl.

Attendees at the ceremony, which took place in the recently inaugurated Remembrance Hall, included President Reuven Rivlin and Deputy Knesset Speaker for the opposition MK Hilik Bar (Zionist Union). Also in attendance were representatives from the Israel Defense Forces, the Israel Police, the Defense Ministry, the Supreme Court and organizations representing the families of fallen soldiers.



In a statement issued several hours after the ceremony, Netanyahu called the lack of a representative from his cabinet “an unfortunate mistake” and apologized to the bereaved families.

  
“I have instructed the Government Secretariat to see to it that in the future, there will be [government] representation at ceremonies for Israel’s war dead,” Netanyahu said in the statement.

“There is no greater duty than that to our loved ones who died so that we can live in our state,” he added.

 
While the protocol does not require cabinet members to attend, it is notable that no cabinet ministers felt obligated to make an appearance at the sensitive occasion.

For such a notable event in Israeli history, you'd think some Government Minister would attend, even if Netanyahu was unable to.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on October 03, 2017, 01:12:06 PM
MK prof. Trachtenberg and MK Margalit (ZU) both resigned from the Knesset, with the latter it's interesting as he ran for Labour's leadership recently and probably estimated his chances to get in next time as slim.

They will be replaced by some Druze nobody and the deputy mayor of some northern town and the head of the party's women division


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on October 04, 2017, 01:18:08 AM
MK prof. Trachtenberg and MK Margalit (ZU) both resigned from the Knesset, with the latter it's interesting as he ran for Labour's leadership recently and probably estimated his chances to get in next time as slim.

They will be replaced by some Druze nobody and the deputy mayor of some northern town and the head of the party's women division

Uh, a shame. Margalit was actually good. Some are speculating that he could run for Jerusalem mayor.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on October 04, 2017, 06:22:38 AM
MK prof. Trachtenberg and MK Margalit (ZU) both resigned from the Knesset, with the latter it's interesting as he ran for Labour's leadership recently and probably estimated his chances to get in next time as slim.

They will be replaced by some Druze nobody and the deputy mayor of some northern town and the head of the party's women division

Uh, a shame. Margalit was actually good. Some are speculating that he could run for Jerusalem mayor.
Hope so, he could be whatever Barket couldn't, and he might actually improve the situation in Eastern Jerusalem.

Meanwhile in Meretz there will probably be a leadership election after the new convention is elected. Galon vs Gilon vs Dabush is what's shaping out. Galon backed by MKs Rosin and Fregg (and other old guard figures), Gilon is backed by his youth nutters, and Dabush by Zandebreg and her supporters


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on October 04, 2017, 06:31:33 AM
MK prof. Trachtenberg and MK Margalit (ZU) both resigned from the Knesset, with the latter it's interesting as he ran for Labour's leadership recently and probably estimated his chances to get in next time as slim.

They will be replaced by some Druze nobody and the deputy mayor of some northern town and the head of the party's women division

Uh, a shame. Margalit was actually good. Some are speculating that he could run for Jerusalem mayor.
Hope so, he could be whatever Barket couldn't, and he might actually improve the situation in Eastern Jerusalem.

Meanwhile in Meretz there will probably be a leadership election after the new convention is elected. Galon vs Gilon vs Dabush is what's shaping out. Galon backed by MKs Rosin and Fregg (and other old guard figures), Gilon is backed by his youth nutters, and Dabush by Zandebreg and her supporters

This is surprising. I'd have expected Zandeberg to support Galon, considering she wanted to step down in her favour when Meretz initially got only 4 seats.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on October 04, 2017, 10:48:36 AM
MK prof. Trachtenberg and MK Margalit (ZU) both resigned from the Knesset, with the latter it's interesting as he ran for Labour's leadership recently and probably estimated his chances to get in next time as slim.

They will be replaced by some Druze nobody and the deputy mayor of some northern town and the head of the party's women division

Uh, a shame. Margalit was actually good. Some are speculating that he could run for Jerusalem mayor.
Hope so, he could be whatever Barket couldn't, and he might actually improve the situation in Eastern Jerusalem.

Meanwhile in Meretz there will probably be a leadership election after the new convention is elected. Galon vs Gilon vs Dabush is what's shaping out. Galon backed by MKs Rosin and Fregg (and other old guard figures), Gilon is backed by his youth nutters, and Dabush by Zandebreg and her supporters

This is surprising. I'd have expected Zandeberg to support Galon, considering she wanted to step down in her favour when Meretz initially got only 4 seats.
That was more of an honour ritual, they both hold different power bases at the party


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on October 04, 2017, 01:29:47 PM
MK prof. Trachtenberg and MK Margalit (ZU) both resigned from the Knesset, with the latter it's interesting as he ran for Labour's leadership recently and probably estimated his chances to get in next time as slim.

They will be replaced by some Druze nobody and the deputy mayor of some northern town and the head of the party's women division

Uh, a shame. Margalit was actually good. Some are speculating that he could run for Jerusalem mayor.
Hope so, he could be whatever Barket couldn't, and he might actually improve the situation in Eastern Jerusalem.

Meanwhile in Meretz there will probably be a leadership election after the new convention is elected. Galon vs Gilon vs Dabush is what's shaping out. Galon backed by MKs Rosin and Fregg (and other old guard figures), Gilon is backed by his youth nutters, and Dabush by Zandebreg and her supporters

should be very interesting/popcorn-worthy.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on October 18, 2017, 05:59:40 AM
Zehava Galon resigned from the Knesset but not the chairwoman position, in order to fight to internal battles in the party and change the selection process. Mossi Raz (who is a personal friend and a fine person) will be sworn in as MK, he will probably be the most left wing Jewish MK after the communist Hanin.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: NoTrump on October 27, 2017, 01:41:00 AM
I hope that I'm posting this in the right place.

Anyway, a bit off-topic, but out of curiosity--over the next several decades and beyond, do you see Israel accelerating the pace of settlement construction in the West Bank as a way of dealing with its rapidly growing overpopulation problem (assuming that it doesn't make peace with Palestine by that point in time, that is)?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on October 27, 2017, 07:38:32 AM
I hope that I'm posting this in the right place.

Anyway, a bit off-topic, but out of curiosity--over the next several decades and beyond, do you see Israel accelerating the pace of settlement construction in the West Bank as a way of dealing with its rapidly growing overpopulation problem (assuming that it doesn't make peace with Palestine by that point in time, that is)?
Why would young people move to the west bank where's there's hardly any employment or cultural events that interest young people? let alone security concerns and other issues.

If anything it could be a way to house young Haredi couple thus making them also invested in the right wing project


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: NoTrump on October 27, 2017, 09:01:17 PM
I hope that I'm posting this in the right place.

Anyway, a bit off-topic, but out of curiosity--over the next several decades and beyond, do you see Israel accelerating the pace of settlement construction in the West Bank as a way of dealing with its rapidly growing overpopulation problem (assuming that it doesn't make peace with Palestine by that point in time, that is)?
Why would young people move to the west bank where's there's hardly any employment or cultural events that interest young people? let alone security concerns and other issues.

If anything it could be a way to house young Haredi couple thus making them also invested in the right wing project
For the record, I was thinking more of Haredi Jews moving to the West Bank than young people moving to the West Bank.

However, in regards to the lack of jobs in the West Bank, Israelis who live there could commute to Israel. You're correct about the security problems, though (but it is worth noting that the security situation in Israel and the West Bank right now still appears to be much better than it was between 2000 and 2004).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on October 28, 2017, 05:26:56 PM
@Hnv1- what would you say about the results of the Meretz delegate elections? Which faction should celebrate?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on October 29, 2017, 03:28:38 AM
@Hnv1- what would you say about the results of the Meretz delegate elections? Which faction should celebrate?
Haifa/Jerusalem/Tel Aviv have a fifth of the total delegates. From what I saw it’s a standstill, maybe Zandberg increased her strength slightly. Not so sure what’s going to happen when they vote on leadership


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on November 19, 2017, 07:26:14 AM
A new poll has a united centrist list of Yair Lapid, Finance Minister Moshe Kahlon and former Chief of General Staff Gabi Ashkenazi as the biggest party:

Centrist List- 33 seats
Likud- 26 seats
Zionist Union- 17 seats
United Arab List- 11 seats
Jewish Home- 9 seats
Torah Judaism- 7 seats
Yisrael Beitenu- 7 seats
Meretz- 7 seats
Shas- 3 seats (below the thershold, so the 3 would be distributed between the other parties)

Note that there is no option for a center-left or center-right coalition here- the hypothetical centrist list would obviously have to join the Zionist Union, but then they'd need 11 more for a majority. They can either tack left and join Meretz or tack right and join Yisrael Beitenu, but neither is a majority. Galon and Lieberman absolutely hate each other, so they won't sit together, and I suppose they could join Torah Judaism with Lieberman to have a majority, but many elements in Labour would be very much against it and I doubt the Haredi parties will sit with Lapid. But Likud can't build a coalition here either, so this forces a grand coalition between the Centrists and Likud, probably with Lieberman joining in. I doubt Labour would agree to join that coalition, they'd prefer to be in opposition.

There's also a poll with the current party composition:

Likud- 27
Yesh Atid- 21
Zionist Union- 19
Joint Arab List- 11
Jewish Home- 10
Torah Judaism- 8
Kulanu- 7
Yisrael Beitenu- 7
Meretz- 7
Shas- 3

This doesn't change much, but as terrible as Lapid is, it does seem to improve the center-left's situation, as Likud can't have the same coalition as today. They'd need Shas to pass the thershold to do it (or 2 of Shas' 3 to go to coalition parties, which is certainly possible). Still, the center-left can't build their own coalition here.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: parochial boy on November 19, 2017, 08:45:29 AM
Why are Shas polling so badly? Where would their voters even go other than the Likud?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on November 19, 2017, 08:51:22 AM
Why are Shas polling so badly? Where would their voters even go other than the Likud?

I doubt (but sincerly hope) that they'll fall below the thershold, but it might be the combination of the split within the Der'i and Yishay wings of the party, combined with the recent criminal invistigations against Der'i. They have a core base of Sephardic Haredi Jews who will always vote for them, but I think they also took many of their voters from a ragtag coalition of loosely traditional to religious Mizrahi right-wingers and even Mizrahi leftists who still imagine Shas as some socialist fighters for Mizarhi Jews. So I guess that the voters leaving them go mostly to Likud, Jewish Home and maybe Avi Gabay's Labour.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on November 19, 2017, 09:59:42 AM
^ The biggest cause of the decreased amount of support for Shas, to me, seems Rav Yosef's death, which was always going to affect their numbers and popularity in the long run even if it did not lead to a sudden collapse in the last GE.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on November 20, 2017, 06:22:35 PM
This has probably been asked a million times, but what's the difference between Shas and UTJ?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on November 20, 2017, 06:42:14 PM
This has probably been asked a million times, but what's the difference between Shas and UTJ?

UTJ is for Ashkenazi Haredi, and Shas for Sephardi Haredi.
At its height Shas appealed to a lot of non Haredi Sephardi in a way that UTJ has never expanded beyond their base, although that based on recent polling I doubt much of that is left.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on November 21, 2017, 05:33:54 AM
^ The biggest cause of the decreased amount of support for Shas, to me, seems Rav Yosef's death, which was always going to affect their numbers and popularity in the long run even if it did not lead to a sudden collapse in the last GE.
This.
There weren't that many ultra orthodox sephardis so Shas relied heavily on support of sephardi who were less religious but were drawn by the Rabbi (and Deri'i for a time).

now he's dead (finally), the party is splintered, and Deri'i has a greedy image even in his own public. 4-5 seats is actually the core of sephardi haredi.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: NewYorkExpress on November 23, 2017, 01:04:05 PM
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-israel-usa-jews/israeli-official-under-fire-for-comments-on-american-jews-military-service-idUKKBN1DN1B7 (https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-israel-usa-jews/israeli-official-under-fire-for-comments-on-american-jews-military-service-idUKKBN1DN1B7)

Quote
A top Israeli diplomat was rebuked by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Thursday for suggesting that American Jews have a poor commitment to service in the U.S. military.



Asked in an English-language television interview about criticism of Israeli policies by some U.S. Jews, Deputy Foreign Minister Tzipi Hotovely questioned whether “people that never send their children to fight for their country” could understand the “complexity” of the Middle east.

“Most of the Jews don’t have children serving as soldiers, going to the Marines, going to Afghanistan or to Iraq,” she said on i24 TV news on Wednesday.





“They don’t feel how it feels to be attacked by rockets, and I think part of it is to actually experience what Israel is dealing with on a daily basis,” said Hotovely, a member of Netanyahu’s right-wing Likud party.

While Israel has often quarrelled with American Jews over their right to advise it from afar, Hotovely’s remarks went further by appearing to insinuate they are not fully committed to their native country, a notion U.S. Jewish organizations have long fought against in their battle against anti-Semitism.

In a statement, Netanyahu, who also serves as Israel’s foreign minister, denounced Hotovely’s comments as “hurtful”.

“There is no place for such a harangue and her remarks do not reflect the State of Israel’s position,” the statement said.

This has to hurt Israel, attacking an ally like this, right?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on November 23, 2017, 02:34:41 PM
It's definitely going to hurt Hotolevy's career. Working in her favor is that it's likely a popular opinion in conservative US quarters, sadly. But she's doing a lot of damage when it comes to Israel's Jewish outreach efforts.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: dead0man on November 23, 2017, 06:50:21 PM
Is she wrong?  Do American Jews not serve in the US military?  Does it even matter if she's right or not, should you not say truths that will inevitably piss some people off, or does it depend on the truth and the voting record of the pissed off people?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Angel of Death on November 23, 2017, 07:15:23 PM
LOL (https://sports.yahoo.com/palestine-overtakes-israel-fifa-football-rankings-175955795--sow.html)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: NewYorkExpress on November 23, 2017, 07:35:31 PM
LOL (https://sports.yahoo.com/palestine-overtakes-israel-fifa-football-rankings-175955795--sow.html)

That's just embarrassing.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MaxQue on November 23, 2017, 08:16:06 PM
Is she wrong?  Do American Jews not serve in the US military?  Does it even matter if she's right or not, should you not say truths that will inevitably piss some people off, or does it depend on the truth and the voting record of the pissed off people?

The issue is than she is claiming than, due to them not serving in the US military, they don't understand the Middle East.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on November 23, 2017, 09:54:56 PM
Is she wrong?  Do American Jews not serve in the US military?  Does it even matter if she's right or not, should you not say truths that will inevitably piss some people off, or does it depend on the truth and the voting record of the pissed off people?

Except that they aren't truths, at least not in the way anti-Semites would twist such remarks.

http://secular.org/files/mldc-ripsdemographics_0.pdf

As the above link shows, most religious groups--including Jews--are pretty evenly represented among the US military in proportion to their numbers in their age group in the general population.  The exceptions are the irreligious and Baptists who are over represented, and Adventists who are way over represented. I mean seriously, looking at those numbers, I'm tempted to think the FBI propably ought to keep an eye on the SDA. ;)

Granted, compared to Israel when all Jews who aren't Haredi freeloaders (who in all their study seem to ignore Ecclesiastes 1:16-18 since it would inform them that such excessive study of the Hebrew scriptures is a vanity) serve in the military, few American Jews serve, but the same is true for pretty much every American ethnic or religious group.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on November 23, 2017, 11:26:43 PM
It could have been an indelicate way to state that due to America's lack of a universal draft, the majority of American Jews never see military service. (Same as every group in America) But it couldn't have been said worse, if so.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MaxQue on November 24, 2017, 12:35:56 AM
It could have been an indelicate way to state that due to America's lack of a universal draft, the majority of American Jews never see military service. (Same as every group in America) But it couldn't have been said worse, if so.

In any case, whether USA has a draft or not, it's not the business of any foreign government.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on November 24, 2017, 01:35:56 AM
It could have been an indelicate way to state that due to America's lack of a universal draft, the majority of American Jews never see military service. (Same as every group in America) But it couldn't have been said worse, if so.

In any case, whether USA has a draft or not, it's not the business of any foreign government.

Yeah. A universal draft is actually inhumane and goes against basic democratic values, and moreso, causes immense pain for thousands of youths who just aren't made for a military system. So even though it's a necessary evil in Israel today, she shouldn't parrot it around like some high civilizational achievement.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on November 24, 2017, 04:22:02 AM
Health Minister Litzman, of the Haredi UTJ Party, announced his resignation because of... maintenance works in the Israeli Railways in Saturday. Works that are necessary in order for the trains to work on schedule in Sunday to Thursday, when people need to get to work. This is despite the fact that the works were heavily minimized- the Rabbe of the Ger sect, who holds Litzman by his you-know-what was unsatisfied with it.
Apparently his party will remain in the coalition, so we won't see new elections, and he will attempt to keep control of the Health Ministry by being a Deputy Minister again, but the Supreme Court denied that after the last elections so it's unclear if he can. Nice to see that our Health Minister cares about our health! :)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on November 24, 2017, 08:44:57 AM
As to Hotobly's remark, she's right in one thing, American Jews need to but out. AIPAC or Jstreet I don't care for either's opinion. It has nothing to do with how much hardship they experience they're simply not Israeli and their money is manipulating the political system here from afar.

As to Litzman, I would remind everyone that Netanyahu went to the 2015 elections with an agreement with Shas and UTJ already in hand (as they all admitted afterwards). I would be very suspicious of any Haredi attempt to suddenly take down the best government for them in well, forever.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on November 27, 2017, 07:38:00 AM
Fast becoming an African banana republic. Likud are passing a bill that will prohibit the police from publishing findings from investigations that they deem should be prosecuted. You guessed it, the bill will hold retroactively in part on the investigations of one Netanyahu


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on November 27, 2017, 07:46:26 AM
Fast becoming an African banana republic. Likud are passing a bill that will prohibit the police from publishing findings from investigations that they deem should be prosecuted. You guessed it, the bill will hold retroactively in part on the investigations of one Netanyahu

Yeah, it seems to me increasingly likely that Bibi will escape the investigations relatively unscathed. This man is undermining out democracy in very concerning ways- he's slowly turning into the next Putin\Erdogan.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on November 27, 2017, 02:58:52 PM
Hyperbole, because free and fair elections aren't seriously endangered in Israel. The apt comparison is with parties like Croatian HDZ, who appeal to the masses with nationalism but are basically in power to line their pockets and allow the oligarchs to continue to do the same at the expense of the population.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on November 27, 2017, 03:09:09 PM
Hyperbole, because free and fair elections aren't seriously endangered in Israel. The apt comparison is with parties like Croatian HDZ, who appeal to the masses with nationalism but are basically in power to line their pockets and allow the oligarchs to continue to do the same at the expense of the population.

But are they? When the justice system is castrated and threatened, I do fear for the rest of our democratic institutions.
And I'm not so sure that Putin necessarily rigs the Russian elections, at least not completely- he's just wildly popular and very effective in crushing political opposition. Though, I'm not saying that Bibi is doing this yet, or that he's that popular.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on November 27, 2017, 03:26:55 PM
There's not much need to rig an election if you can shut down all independent media, take out your political opponents, and prevent real opposition parties from standing in elections, but Putin does it anyway. All these regions in the Northern Caucasus don't really vote for Putin by more than 90% with similar turnout.

I know hyperbole is prevalent in all Israeli media, from left to right, to debilitating levels, but surely you are too smart to believe that what has happened in Russia or even Turkey is possible in Israel. Surely you know even better than I that Israel is a mature democracy in which the population would not accept a crackdown on basic democratic rights and in which the system has enough checks and balances to prevent this from happening. Which does not mean that what Netanyahu is doing now is acceptable, of course, or that citizens should close their eyes for it -- on the contrary.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on November 27, 2017, 03:49:03 PM
There's not much need to rig an election if you can shut down all independent media, take out your political opponents, and prevent real opposition parties from standing in elections, but Putin does it anyway. All these regions in the Northern Caucasus don't really vote for Putin by more than 90% with similar turnout.

I know hyperbole is prevalent in all Israeli media, from left to right, to debilitating levels, but surely you are too smart to believe that what has happened in Russia or even Turkey is possible in Israel. Surely you know even better than I that Israel is a mature democracy in which the population would not accept a crackdown on basic democratic rights and in which the system has enough checks and balances to prevent this from happening. Which does not mean that what Netanyahu is doing now is acceptable, of course, or that citizens should close their eyes for it -- on the contrary.

It probably won't happen, yeah, and we have quite many checks and balances. But, I am worried about what appears to be the population becoming apathetic to all that the Likud is currently trying to do. Much thanks to Netanyahu, who urged this trend on, the Israeli society became deeply polarized, and it became a matter of left and right. Large swathes of the public seem to be blindly loyal to Netanyahu, despite everything, so yes, it does worry me.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Zanas on November 28, 2017, 09:20:51 AM
No democracy is safe in these wildly reactionary times.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Santander on November 28, 2017, 11:08:06 AM
Tomorrow marks 70 years since UN Resolution 181.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on November 28, 2017, 03:45:01 PM
Tomorrow marks 70 years since UN Resolution 181.
Can't wait for the next 70.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on November 28, 2017, 05:35:12 PM
Shambles and shame. Close down the legislature, stop the pretense.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on December 27, 2017, 12:04:40 PM
According to Haaretz, it seems like there's going to be a compromise in Meretz, giving the primaries to the party members rather than making them open, and Zehava Galon will stay on as leader. Also, the article says Gilon opposes the compromise, but that it's very likely to pass in the coming days.
Hnv, am I right to assume that it's a compromise between the Galon and Zandberg wings, ensuring them a majority against the Gilon people?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 27, 2017, 12:10:58 PM
According to Haaretz, it seems like there's going to be a compromise in Meretz, giving the primaries to the party members rather than making them open, and Zehava Galon will stay on as leader. Also, the article says Gilon opposes the compromise, but that it's very likely to pass in the coming days.
Hnv, am I right to assume that it's a compromise between the Galon and Zandberg wings, ensuring them a majority against the Gilon people?
Indeed, Zandberg personally wanted to side with Galon but some of her ranks are not so keen on her. It will probably pass (as everyone bar for the trots supports the compromise). I actually see no difference between this and the so called open primaries.

Leadership elections will be held in late March and I hope Galon gives Gilon a proper spanking in the general membership (though I do think this should be her last tenure)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on December 27, 2017, 12:15:28 PM
According to Haaretz, it seems like there's going to be a compromise in Meretz, giving the primaries to the party members rather than making them open, and Zehava Galon will stay on as leader. Also, the article says Gilon opposes the compromise, but that it's very likely to pass in the coming days.
Hnv, am I right to assume that it's a compromise between the Galon and Zandberg wings, ensuring them a majority against the Gilon people?
Indeed, Zandberg personally wanted to side with Galon but some of her ranks are not so keen on her. It will probably pass (as everyone bar for the trots supports the compromise). I actually see no difference between this and the so called open primaries.

Leadership elections will be held in late March and I hope Galon gives Gilon a proper spanking in the general membership (though I do think this should be her last tenure)

Interesting, I approve. It keeps Galon instead of the socialists and leaves an option for me to vote for if no other party is sufficiently liberal on social issues.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on December 27, 2017, 04:09:58 PM
According to Haaretz, it seems like there's going to be a compromise in Meretz, giving the primaries to the party members rather than making them open, and Zehava Galon will stay on as leader. Also, the article says Gilon opposes the compromise, but that it's very likely to pass in the coming days.
Hnv, am I right to assume that it's a compromise between the Galon and Zandberg wings, ensuring them a majority against the Gilon people?
Indeed, Zandberg personally wanted to side with Galon but some of her ranks are not so keen on her. It will probably pass (as everyone bar for the trots supports the compromise). I actually see no difference between this and the so called open primaries.

Leadership elections will be held in late March and I hope Galon gives Gilon a proper spanking in the general membership (though I do think this should be her last tenure)

Why would she prefer Zandberg over Gilon? Zandberg seems much closer to her. In fact, what even are the differences between Zandberg and Galon?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 28, 2017, 04:44:57 AM
According to Haaretz, it seems like there's going to be a compromise in Meretz, giving the primaries to the party members rather than making them open, and Zehava Galon will stay on as leader. Also, the article says Gilon opposes the compromise, but that it's very likely to pass in the coming days.
Hnv, am I right to assume that it's a compromise between the Galon and Zandberg wings, ensuring them a majority against the Gilon people?
Indeed, Zandberg personally wanted to side with Galon but some of her ranks are not so keen on her. It will probably pass (as everyone bar for the trots supports the compromise). I actually see no difference between this and the so called open primaries.

Leadership elections will be held in late March and I hope Galon gives Gilon a proper spanking in the general membership (though I do think this should be her last tenure)

Why would she prefer Zandberg over Gilon? Zandberg seems much closer to her. In fact, what even are the differences between Zandberg and Galon?
I didn’t understand the first question.
Zandberg is closer to her but her true second is Rozin, Galon and the feminists will want her to be the leader after Galon while Zandberg has her own ambitions. Zandberg is a tad more socialist and some of her young supporters would rather have Gilon as leader I suspect (Galon isn’t too popular with the youth wing)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 29, 2017, 09:13:15 AM
New poll by the right wing Makor Rishon (grain of salt etc.):
YA - 25 (polls all time high)
Likud - 24
JH - 14
ZU - 12 (ouch)
Joint list - 11
Kulano - 11
UTJ - 7
Meretz - 7
Lieberman - 5 (lmao)
Shas - 4 (lmao #2)

In this case Lapid can form a narrow coalition without JH with 62 seats.

Most fit to be PM:
Bibi - 24% (that’s a low I don’t recall since the mid naughties)
Lapid - 18%
yaalon - 7%
Bennet - 6%
Gabay- 6%
Lieberman - 3% (just retire already you cancerous cell)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on December 29, 2017, 10:59:56 AM
New poll by the right wing Makor Rishon (grain of salt etc.):
YA - 25 (polls all time high)
Likud - 24
JH - 14
ZU - 12 (ouch)
Joint list - 11
Kulano - 11
UTJ - 7
Meretz - 7
Lieberman - 5 (lmao)
Shas - 4 (lmao #2)

In this case Lapid can form a narrow coalition without JH with 62 seats.

Most fit to be PM:
Bibi - 24% (that’s a low I don’t recall since the mid naughties)
Lapid - 18%
yaalon - 7%
Bennet - 6%
Gabay- 6%
Lieberman - 3% (just retire already you cancerous cell)

With which parties? The Haredi won't choose him over whoever leads Likud, and Meretz won't sit with Lieberman.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 29, 2017, 12:16:10 PM
New poll by the right wing Makor Rishon (grain of salt etc.):
YA - 25 (polls all time high)
Likud - 24
JH - 14
ZU - 12 (ouch)
Joint list - 11
Kulano - 11
UTJ - 7
Meretz - 7
Lieberman - 5 (lmao)
Shas - 4 (lmao #2)

In this case Lapid can form a narrow coalition without JH with 62 seats.

Most fit to be PM:
Bibi - 24% (that’s a low I don’t recall since the mid naughties)
Lapid - 18%
yaalon - 7%
Bennet - 6%
Gabay- 6%
Lieberman - 3% (just retire already you cancerous cell)

With which parties? The Haredi won't choose him over whoever leads Likud, and Meretz won't sit with Lieberman.
Meretz will sit with Lieberman if he’s not MoD, there will be a grumbling but the desire for 2 ministerial posts and to see Bibi out will overcome them. That government wouldn’t last long anyway, it’s sole purpose will be to bury the conception of Bibi as the sole option.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 01, 2018, 07:49:51 AM
So these 62 seats you mention would be YA, ZU, Kulanu, UTJ and Meretz? A grand coalition led by Lapid with YA, Likud, Kulanu and Lieberman seems a more logical option based on these numbers, though of course the combination of YA and Likud may be difficult (but perhaps not more difficult than getting both the Haredim and Meretz on board).

Also, how is Kulanu still this popular? I didn't think Kachlon had achieved anything?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 01, 2018, 09:04:02 AM
So these 62 seats you mention would be YA, ZU, Kulanu, UTJ and Meretz? A grand coalition led by Lapid with YA, Likud, Kulanu and Lieberman seems a more logical option based on these numbers, though of course the combination of YA and Likud may be difficult (but perhaps not more difficult than getting both the Haredim and Meretz on board).

Also, how is Kulanu still this popular? I didn't think Kachlon had achieved anything?
YA+ZU+Kulanu+Meretz+liberman=60 my bad, he’ll probably have to add Shas in that scenario (it’ll be easier to sit Meretz with Shas than Liberman)
YA+JH+ZU+Kulano= 62 though

Kachlon is an enigma. But he has a clean image so I guess soft Likud voters who feel uncomfortable with Bittan and Bibi’s recent affairs swing to him (plus some appeal with young couples from the new middle class where Gabay thought of making grounds)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on January 01, 2018, 09:54:40 AM
A poll about whether there should be government that regulates the economy or free market economy without government regulation.

overall 56% support government regulation to 36% free market (8% no opinion), by supporters of each party:
Likud: 59-34-7
Zionist Union: 60-37-3
Yesh Atid: 43-43-13
Kulanu: 43-52-4
Jewish Home: 68-24-8
Haredi parties: 48-41-10
Yisrael Beitenu: 45-50-5
Meretz: 65-27-8

For some they don't list the Joint List, but they do mention that Arabs were 62 for government regulation. Women were more supportive of government regulation than men and there was no correlation with income.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 01, 2018, 10:23:22 AM
A poll about whether there should be government that regulates the economy or free market economy without government regulation.

overall 56% support government regulation to 36% free market (8% no opinion), by supporters of each party:
Likud: 59-34-7
Zionist Union: 60-37-3
Yesh Atid: 43-43-13
Kulanu: 43-52-4
Jewish Home: 68-24-8
Haredi parties: 48-41-10
Yisrael Beitenu: 45-50-5
Meretz: 65-27-8

For some they don't list the Joint List, but they do mention that Arabs were 62 for government regulation. Women were more supportive of government regulation than men and there was no correlation with income.

This is very interesting.
1. Lol, socialist Likud.
2. Zionist Union voters are just a bit more for regulations than Likud voters. In fact, the difference is probably within the margin of error.
3. How surprising, 13% of Yesh Atid voters don't have any opinion :P
4. Lol at 41% of Haredi voters supporting free market. Do they not realize that government regulations are the lifeblood of their public and of their politicians' trampling of religious freedom? A free market is a disaster for them, they rely on allowances, affirmative action and heavy funding.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 01, 2018, 11:02:25 AM
A poll about whether there should be government that regulates the economy or free market economy without government regulation.

overall 56% support government regulation to 36% free market (8% no opinion), by supporters of each party:
Likud: 59-34-7
Zionist Union: 60-37-3
Yesh Atid: 43-43-13
Kulanu: 43-52-4
Jewish Home: 68-24-8
Haredi parties: 48-41-10
Yisrael Beitenu: 45-50-5
Meretz: 65-27-8

For some they don't list the Joint List, but they do mention that Arabs were 62 for government regulation. Women were more supportive of government regulation than men and there was no correlation with income.
terrible poll and terrible question framing. Anyway, how shocking is it that Lapid voters have the least interest and knowledge...

Quote
This is very interesting.
1. Lol, socialist Likud.
2. Zionist Union voters are just a bit more for regulations than Likud voters. In fact, the difference is probably within the margin of error.
3. How surprising, 13% of Yesh Atid voters don't have any opinion Tongue
4. Lol at 41% of Haredi voters supporting free market. Do they not realize that government regulations are the lifeblood of their public and of their politicians' trampling of religious freedom? A free market is a disaster for them, they rely on allowances, affirmative action and heavy funding.
add:
5. JH voters were most for government intervention, despite the fact that Bennet and Shaked are the most outspoken free market voices in government. Bennet even had the party constitution changed so the word 'socialist' was dropped


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 01, 2018, 11:04:00 AM
A poll about whether there should be government that regulates the economy or free market economy without government regulation.

overall 56% support government regulation to 36% free market (8% no opinion), by supporters of each party:
Likud: 59-34-7
Zionist Union: 60-37-3
Yesh Atid: 43-43-13
Kulanu: 43-52-4
Jewish Home: 68-24-8
Haredi parties: 48-41-10
Yisrael Beitenu: 45-50-5
Meretz: 65-27-8

For some they don't list the Joint List, but they do mention that Arabs were 62 for government regulation. Women were more supportive of government regulation than men and there was no correlation with income.
terrible poll and terrible question framing. Anyway, how shocking is it that Lapid voters have the least interest and knowledge...

Do you have a link to that poll? I didn't see a Hebrew version with the questioning etc.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 01, 2018, 11:06:06 AM
A poll about whether there should be government that regulates the economy or free market economy without government regulation.

overall 56% support government regulation to 36% free market (8% no opinion), by supporters of each party:
Likud: 59-34-7
Zionist Union: 60-37-3
Yesh Atid: 43-43-13
Kulanu: 43-52-4
Jewish Home: 68-24-8
Haredi parties: 48-41-10
Yisrael Beitenu: 45-50-5
Meretz: 65-27-8

For some they don't list the Joint List, but they do mention that Arabs were 62 for government regulation. Women were more supportive of government regulation than men and there was no correlation with income.
terrible poll and terrible question framing. Anyway, how shocking is it that Lapid voters have the least interest and knowledge...

Do you have a link to that poll? I didn't see a Hebrew version with the questioning etc.
only the questions as they appeared in the hebrew version on paper


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on January 01, 2018, 11:12:09 AM
A poll about whether there should be government that regulates the economy or free market economy without government regulation.

overall 56% support government regulation to 36% free market (8% no opinion), by supporters of each party:
Likud: 59-34-7
Zionist Union: 60-37-3
Yesh Atid: 43-43-13
Kulanu: 43-52-4
Jewish Home: 68-24-8
Haredi parties: 48-41-10
Yisrael Beitenu: 45-50-5
Meretz: 65-27-8

For some they don't list the Joint List, but they do mention that Arabs were 62 for government regulation. Women were more supportive of government regulation than men and there was no correlation with income.
terrible poll and terrible question framing. Anyway, how shocking is it that Lapid voters have the least interest and knowledge...

Do you have a link to that poll? I didn't see a Hebrew version with the questioning etc.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DSddUDbX4AANKbO.jpg


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 02, 2018, 07:49:26 AM
Not surprised by the Likud numbers at all. Lots of people vote for them because of their nationalism, not because of their economics. Much more surprised by the Jewish Home numbers, but perhaps my view of the JH electorate is colored by thinking of JH voters as rich American olim in Efrat.

Apparently a law by MK Shuli Moalem (JH) was passed that requires a 2/3rd majority in the Knesset to give any parts of Jerusalem to the Palestinians in a 2SS. Which parties voted for this law?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 02, 2018, 08:29:48 AM
Not surprised by the Likud numbers at all. Lots of people vote for them because of their nationalism, not because of their economics. Much more surprised by the Jewish Home numbers, but perhaps my view of the JH electorate is colored by thinking of JH voters as rich American olim in Efrat.

Apparently a law by MK Shuli Moalem (JH) was passed that requires a 2/3rd majority in the Knesset to give any parts of Jerusalem to the Palestinians in a 2SS. Which parties voted for this law?
The coalition parties, it was a change to the Basic Law: Jerusalem that requires a 61 MKs support.

I must say (as probably the only Israeli lawyer here) that I both suspect the law will be unconstitutional come a vote on it (super-majorities and their status are under ambiguity in Israeli law). Secondly, the coalition is simultaneously promoting a law that will tear some Palestinian neighborhoods from the municipality of Jerusalem, if they succeed then this super-majority requirement can be voided in the future. 


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on January 02, 2018, 09:31:04 AM
So, Israel basically only wants the Jewish neighbourhoods of Jerusalem?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 02, 2018, 09:50:02 AM
So, Israel basically only wants the Jewish neighbourhoods of Jerusalem?
No. It doesn’t want the refugee camps and neighborhoods in the eastern outskirts. The colonels who drew the lines of what is “Jerusalem” in 67 were very sloppy.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on January 02, 2018, 09:57:27 AM
What do the Palestinians want then?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 02, 2018, 11:26:51 AM
Probably to make such decisions by themselves. It might come as a shock but Palestinian wishes don't have that much significance here.


Title: Israeli Right Moves to Sabotage Two-State Solution
Post by: Frodo on January 02, 2018, 11:45:47 AM
The Palestinian people should have said 'yes' when they had the chance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit)....

Quote
An emboldened Israeli right wing is moving quickly in the new year to make it far more difficult to create a Palestinian state, signaling its intention to doom hopes for a two-state solution to the conflict.

The actions have come on multiple fronts, as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s party for the first time has urged the annexation of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, and the nation’s top legal officers pressed to extend Israeli law into occupied territory.

In addition, the Israeli Parliament, after a late-night debate, voted early Tuesday to enact stiff new obstacles to any potential land-for-peace deal involving Jerusalem, while abandoning at the last minute a measure that would have eased the way to rid the city of several overwhelmingly Palestinian neighborhoods.

Coming on the heels of President Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital in defiance of decades-old United States policy and international consensus, the moves showed that the Israeli right senses a new opening to pursue its goal of a single state from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean.

NYTimes (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/01/world/middleeast/israeli-jerusalem-west-bank.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news)


Title: Re: Israeli Right Moves to Sabotage Two-State Solution
Post by: #TheShadowyAbyss on January 03, 2018, 09:29:11 PM
The Palestinian people should have said 'yes' when they had the chance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit)....

Quote
An emboldened Israeli right wing is moving quickly in the new year to make it far more difficult to create a Palestinian state, signaling its intention to doom hopes for a two-state solution to the conflict.

The actions have come on multiple fronts, as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s party for the first time has urged the annexation of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, and the nation’s top legal officers pressed to extend Israeli law into occupied territory.

In addition, the Israeli Parliament, after a late-night debate, voted early Tuesday to enact stiff new obstacles to any potential land-for-peace deal involving Jerusalem, while abandoning at the last minute a measure that would have eased the way to rid the city of several overwhelmingly Palestinian neighborhoods.

Coming on the heels of President Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital in defiance of decades-old United States policy and international consensus, the moves showed that the Israeli right senses a new opening to pursue its goal of a single state from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean.

NYTimes (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/01/world/middleeast/israeli-jerusalem-west-bank.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news)

Trust me, I know.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 04, 2018, 04:43:33 AM
According to Haaretz, it seems like there's going to be a compromise in Meretz, giving the primaries to the party members rather than making them open, and Zehava Galon will stay on as leader. Also, the article says Gilon opposes the compromise, but that it's very likely to pass in the coming days.
Hnv, am I right to assume that it's a compromise between the Galon and Zandberg wings, ensuring them a majority against the Gilon people?
Indeed, Zandberg personally wanted to side with Galon but some of her ranks are not so keen on her. It will probably pass (as everyone bar for the trots supports the compromise). I actually see no difference between this and the so called open primaries.

Leadership elections will be held in late March and I hope Galon gives Gilon a proper spanking in the general membership (though I do think this should be her last tenure)

Interesting, I approve. It keeps Galon instead of the socialists and leaves an option for me to vote for if no other party is sufficiently liberal on social issues.
A compromise was reached. Leadership elections including al the members in late March. Next leader would have a mandate to pick his system


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: parochial boy on January 04, 2018, 08:00:15 AM
Would there ever be any chance of the Joint List propping up a leftist/non-Likud government?

I mean, I assume they are complete untouchables for any formal coalition, but would support from outside the government be a possibility? In which case a non-Likud coalition could govern with less than 60 MKs?

I know there are a few crazies in the Arab parties, but Odeh seems like a pretty reasonable guy.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on January 04, 2018, 09:11:17 AM
Would there ever be any chance of the Joint List propping up a leftist/non-Likud government?

I mean, I assume they are complete untouchables for any formal coalition, but would support from outside the government be a possibility? In which case a non-Likud coalition could govern with less than 60 MKs?

I know there are a few crazies in the Arab parties, but Odeh seems like a pretty reasonable guy.

It's unthinkable until it becomes a possibility and it happens. I will say that it's significantly more likely if Hadash MPs alone could put the government over 61.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on January 04, 2018, 05:36:55 PM
Who do Ethiopian Jews vote for?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on January 05, 2018, 04:32:46 AM

Mostly Likud.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on January 05, 2018, 04:42:53 AM
A poll about whether there should be government that regulates the economy or free market economy without government regulation.

overall 56% support government regulation to 36% free market (8% no opinion), by supporters of each party:
Likud: 59-34-7
Zionist Union: 60-37-3
Yesh Atid: 43-43-13
Kulanu: 43-52-4
Jewish Home: 68-24-8
Haredi parties: 48-41-10
Yisrael Beitenu: 45-50-5
Meretz: 65-27-8

For some they don't list the Joint List, but they do mention that Arabs were 62 for government regulation. Women were more supportive of government regulation than men and there was no correlation with income.

What's the source for this? I really want to show someone the original article.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on January 05, 2018, 09:39:27 AM
A poll about whether there should be government that regulates the economy or free market economy without government regulation.

overall 56% support government regulation to 36% free market (8% no opinion), by supporters of each party:
Likud: 59-34-7
Zionist Union: 60-37-3
Yesh Atid: 43-43-13
Kulanu: 43-52-4
Jewish Home: 68-24-8
Haredi parties: 48-41-10
Yisrael Beitenu: 45-50-5
Meretz: 65-27-8

For some they don't list the Joint List, but they do mention that Arabs were 62 for government regulation. Women were more supportive of government regulation than men and there was no correlation with income.

What's the source for this? I really want to show someone the original article.
https://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1001217609 (https://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1001217609)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on January 05, 2018, 11:19:24 AM

Kiryat Moshe in Rehovot is the only neighbourhood that I know of that has an Ethiopian majority and it voted 51% Likud 14% Kulanu 8% Shas.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 05, 2018, 03:14:14 PM
Confirmed contenders in the Meretz primaries:
Zehava Galon - current chairwoman
MK Ilan Gilon
Avi Dabush- Social activists from the south, religious and Sephardic

MK Tamar Zandberg is contemplating a run, and rumors are Eldad Yaniv is also somehow thinking about i

Current membership is 18K but it will probably increase by March.

I currently endorse Galon, but may shift to Zandberg if she runs. Though if it will appear Gilon is carrying it I’ll vote for whoever has the best odds of taking him down


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 05, 2018, 03:20:00 PM
Confirmed contenders in the Meretz primaries:
Zehava Galon - current chairwoman
MK Ilan Gilon
Avi Dabush- Social activists from the south, religious and Sephardic

MK Tamar Zandberg is contemplating a run, and rumors are Eldad Yaniv is also somehow thinking about i

Current membership is 18K but it will probably increase by March.

I currently endorse Galon, but may shift to Zandberg if she runs. Though if it will appear Gilon is carrying it I’ll vote for whoever has the best odds of taking him down

Eldad Yaniv commented on Galon's FB post calling her brave etc, so it'll surprise me if he runs. Also, I hope Zandberg doesn't run, it might increase Gilon's chances.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 05, 2018, 04:13:36 PM
Confirmed contenders in the Meretz primaries:
Zehava Galon - current chairwoman
MK Ilan Gilon
Avi Dabush- Social activists from the south, religious and Sephardic

MK Tamar Zandberg is contemplating a run, and rumors are Eldad Yaniv is also somehow thinking about i

Current membership is 18K but it will probably increase by March.

I currently endorse Galon, but may shift to Zandberg if she runs. Though if it will appear Gilon is carrying it I’ll vote for whoever has the best odds of taking him down

Eldad Yaniv commented on Galon's FB post calling her brave etc, so it'll surprise me if he runs. Also, I hope Zandberg doesn't run, it might increase Gilon's chances.
I got a phone call polling me on the leadership contest with all 5 names.

Also Zandberg can sway some socialist voters from Gilon, so it’s not a pure loss for Galon and a gain for Ilan.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 06, 2018, 07:03:12 AM
I'm staying in Jerusalem this weekend and I saw previous minister Meridor in the street, I started chatting with him (as he wrote the text book in Roman Law I studied from and we are both alumni of the same faculty). He seemed a bit distressed when we talked about the current clash between the government and the police and courts.

Shame, he was one of the misses of Israeli politics, could have made an excellent leader for the right and then the centre (or maybe even as a SC justice). Like Mitzna we somehow missed his potential. I hope Lapid offers him a spot next time around, we need a steady pair of hands in government.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on January 07, 2018, 03:38:43 PM
Israel bars BDS groups from entering country (https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-publishes-blacklist-of-bds-groups-to-be-barred-from-country/)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on January 08, 2018, 03:35:49 AM
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Minimarkets-bill-majority-in-doubt-again-533098?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Likud threatening to expel MK Sharren Haskel for opposing the minimarkets bill.



I am undecided on the bill itself, though I am leaning more towards opposing it atm. but I am very much a fan of Sharren Haskel and believe it would be an outrage for her or any other Likud member to be expelled over this bill.

David Amsalem is trash and has been for quite some time. I have supported Likud my whole life but have increasingly started to question my support for a party that allows corrupt and ignorant fools like Aryeh Deri and Yaakov Litzman to hijack the coalition government and constantly endanger Israeli unity and national security.

I am a moderate on Israeli and Jewish religious issues. I prefer Religious Zionists over Haredi Religious leaders or Reform/Conservative leaders, if I had to pick a side, but I generally am a swingy person on these type of issues. However, I have NEVER liked Deri and have long been skeptical of Litzman and his party.

Them and their parties make up a minuscule portion of the coalition and have no right to hold the whole country hostage in a desperate attempt to protect their waning influence among Israelis.

I have always been proud to support Bibi, but he needs to draw a line with the Haredi parties. They don't get to win on everything, and they definitely shouldn't be allowed to continue their pathetic threats.

Avigdor Lieberman and Yisrael Beiteinu have done what Bibi hasn't in recent months: Push the buttons of these corrupt religiocrats. Kulanu occasionally joins YB in doing this as well. And Yair Lapid and Yesh Atid have been consistent on this as well. Even The Jewish Home has occasionally bucked the Haredi threats.

IMO, there should be an ultimatum: The Haredi Parties need to crack down on their community members who spit on and attack IDF soldiers. They also need to crack down on welfare abuse and corruption in their communities and political leadership.

If they can't agree to this then Likud, Jewish Home, Yisrael Beiteinu and Kulanu need to show them their palms.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on January 08, 2018, 03:39:16 AM
Show them their palms? Can you explain that expression please?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 08, 2018, 03:40:06 AM
Haredi community is more reasonable than their leadership. The problem is top is to bottom not the other way around.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 08, 2018, 04:12:02 AM
Haredi community is more reasonable than their leadership. The problem is top is to bottom not the other way around.


I've actually heard that part of what caused the train works crisis a while ago was young Haredi journalists engaging on social media and reporting the maintenance works, which put pressure on the politicians to stop turning a blind eye.
Also, Sunrise, I'm sure many members of the coalition would love to show the Haredi parties their palms, but they just don't HAVE a coalition without them. Also, Jewish Home has been completely cooperative with this Haredi push to take away our freedom from religion.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 08, 2018, 10:02:25 AM
The minimarkets bill will likely be voted on tonight. With an opposition MK unable to come because of his brother's death and a coalition MK unable to come because of his mother's death, it appears as if the coalition has a 58-57 votes majority.
We need a John McCain right now. But I truly doubt that anyone other than Sharren Haskel is capable of this bravery. I'd hope that Beni Begin would show some spine, but he already proved that he doesn't have any.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on January 08, 2018, 10:05:54 AM
What is this minimarkets bill about?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 08, 2018, 10:30:26 AM
allowing the Home Secretary to strike to down municipal laws that allow the opening of businesses on Saturday


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on January 08, 2018, 10:33:36 AM
Ah right. So one assumes there is a religious aspect to this bill.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: NewYorkExpress on January 08, 2018, 07:08:30 PM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-08/recording-of-netanyahu-son-outside-strip-club-aired-on-israel-tv (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-08/recording-of-netanyahu-son-outside-strip-club-aired-on-israel-tv)

Quote
Israeli television broadcast a 2015 recording in which Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s son is heard bantering with a son of a shareholder in a gas company that won offshore drilling rights from the government and asking him for money to pay a stripper.

Yair Netanyahu was recorded while cruising between strip clubs in downtown Tel Aviv in a government-supplied armored car with one of the sons of Isramco Negev 2 LP shareholder Jackob Maimon, according to Hadashot TV news. Along with them was another friend, a secret-service agent and a driver.

Amid raunchy jokes about a night of drinking at the adult clubs, the younger Netanyahu can be heard complaining that the friend won’t lend him money to pay a dancer even though his father benefited from the lucrative gas business with the government . “Bro, my dad arranged a $20 billion deal and you can’t spot me 400 shekels” ($116)? Yair Netanyahu says. The conversation was in Hebrew.

As police have been conducting an investigation for more than a year into corruption allegations against the prime minister, his 26-year-old son has been criticized for leading an expensive lifestyle supported by taxpayers -- particularly for being given a security detail and the use of government cars.

Hadashot, which bleeped out many comments in its Monday night report, said it had rejected efforts to stop the audio recording from being broadcast. It quoted a statement from the Netanyahu family calling the story, “cheap, vicious gossip,” and saying the recordings were part of a “witch hunt” to bring down the prime minister.

The prime minister’s office did not respond to a request for comment. But late Monday night, Yair Netanyahu issued an apology, saying that his remarks had been made under the influence of alcohol and did not represent the values under which he was raised, according to the Ynet news website.

Umm yeah, that happened.

So do the Haredi parties walk out now?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MaxQue on January 08, 2018, 10:43:14 PM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-08/recording-of-netanyahu-son-outside-strip-club-aired-on-israel-tv (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-08/recording-of-netanyahu-son-outside-strip-club-aired-on-israel-tv)

Quote
Israeli television broadcast a 2015 recording in which Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s son is heard bantering with a son of a shareholder in a gas company that won offshore drilling rights from the government and asking him for money to pay a stripper.

Yair Netanyahu was recorded while cruising between strip clubs in downtown Tel Aviv in a government-supplied armored car with one of the sons of Isramco Negev 2 LP shareholder Jackob Maimon, according to Hadashot TV news. Along with them was another friend, a secret-service agent and a driver.

Amid raunchy jokes about a night of drinking at the adult clubs, the younger Netanyahu can be heard complaining that the friend won’t lend him money to pay a dancer even though his father benefited from the lucrative gas business with the government . “Bro, my dad arranged a $20 billion deal and you can’t spot me 400 shekels” ($116)? Yair Netanyahu says. The conversation was in Hebrew.

As police have been conducting an investigation for more than a year into corruption allegations against the prime minister, his 26-year-old son has been criticized for leading an expensive lifestyle supported by taxpayers -- particularly for being given a security detail and the use of government cars.

Hadashot, which bleeped out many comments in its Monday night report, said it had rejected efforts to stop the audio recording from being broadcast. It quoted a statement from the Netanyahu family calling the story, “cheap, vicious gossip,” and saying the recordings were part of a “witch hunt” to bring down the prime minister.

The prime minister’s office did not respond to a request for comment. But late Monday night, Yair Netanyahu issued an apology, saying that his remarks had been made under the influence of alcohol and did not represent the values under which he was raised, according to the Ynet news website.

Umm yeah, that happened.

So do the Haredi parties walk out now?

No, but they'll use that to force even more of their beliefs through government imposition.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 09, 2018, 01:31:33 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-08/recording-of-netanyahu-son-outside-strip-club-aired-on-israel-tv (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-08/recording-of-netanyahu-son-outside-strip-club-aired-on-israel-tv)

Quote
Israeli television broadcast a 2015 recording in which Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s son is heard bantering with a son of a shareholder in a gas company that won offshore drilling rights from the government and asking him for money to pay a stripper.

Yair Netanyahu was recorded while cruising between strip clubs in downtown Tel Aviv in a government-supplied armored car with one of the sons of Isramco Negev 2 LP shareholder Jackob Maimon, according to Hadashot TV news. Along with them was another friend, a secret-service agent and a driver.

Amid raunchy jokes about a night of drinking at the adult clubs, the younger Netanyahu can be heard complaining that the friend won’t lend him money to pay a dancer even though his father benefited from the lucrative gas business with the government . “Bro, my dad arranged a $20 billion deal and you can’t spot me 400 shekels” ($116)? Yair Netanyahu says. The conversation was in Hebrew.

As police have been conducting an investigation for more than a year into corruption allegations against the prime minister, his 26-year-old son has been criticized for leading an expensive lifestyle supported by taxpayers -- particularly for being given a security detail and the use of government cars.

Hadashot, which bleeped out many comments in its Monday night report, said it had rejected efforts to stop the audio recording from being broadcast. It quoted a statement from the Netanyahu family calling the story, “cheap, vicious gossip,” and saying the recordings were part of a “witch hunt” to bring down the prime minister.

The prime minister’s office did not respond to a request for comment. But late Monday night, Yair Netanyahu issued an apology, saying that his remarks had been made under the influence of alcohol and did not represent the values under which he was raised, according to the Ynet news website.

Umm yeah, that happened.

So do the Haredi parties walk out now?

Lolno. They care more about people not eating Kosher, and even that wouldn't make them do anything beyond a feeble protest.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 09, 2018, 10:04:11 AM
Well it appears he was frequent visitor in strip Clubs champagne rooms, with public paid armed security. That and the mini market bill are terrible publicity for Bibi, soft Likud voters won’t like this at all


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 11, 2018, 06:02:26 AM
MK Zandberg confirms she will too run for Meretz leadership. So we have a 4 way race, as it is the first primaries we had since Cohen v. Oron a decade ago, I’ll be doing a full survey of candidates and voter groups and trends in the build up (this is going to be the battle between the old and the young)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 11, 2018, 11:54:54 AM
In this first part I will present the different contenders, as this was called in a speedy manner there's still no format for the primaries themselves so I don't know what majority will be needed for outright victory.

1. Incumbent Chairwoman - Zehava Galon
()
age: 62

education: BED in education, MA in philosophy of education, Phd student in gender studies (for at least 15 years so...).

popular with: older voters, upper middle class voters, LGBTQ voters (she's sort of an icon I believe), feminists. I think the anti-occupation camp led by Raz will also back her, but it remains to be seen.

Ticket: civil rights, dovish, feminism

probable strategy: She'll try getting the old voters out in full strength, along with working with the gay and feminists organizations to register voters by March. The Arab membership is in her pocket as MK Frej backs her. She's the front runner, but she's also the leader for 6 years now and some people may want to see change
I suspect we'll see a line of intellectuals and public figures unknown thus far as Meretz supporters, back her as she wants to show she can rejuvenate the party.

Weaknesses: unknown factor of how much the membership crave change. Zandberg biting into her feminist and gay support. she's not big with young voters.

Strengths: anyone who doesn't want to see Gilon as leader (and there are many) will go vote for her as a safe way of blocking him and a possible schism in the party.

My personal impression: I was never a big fan, and she has quite a diva attitude but I commend her longstanding track record. I support Zandberg but she's not a bad second option, I would like this to be her last tenure though. I think she has the highest odds to win but it will be a close one.

2. The Tankie - MK Ilan Gilon
()
age: 61

education: unfinished BA in political science from the Hebrew Uni.

popular with: The youth division and students. he's a self-proclaimed Marxist and enjoys the support of young voters who adhere to socialism as young people tend to. His youth are militant and will work hard for him. There aren't that many public figures and intellectuals he could show to support him bar for Prof. Gutwein (the chief academic Marxist in Israel) and his cult.

Ticket: Socialism Socialism Socialism

Probable strategy: he spent the last 6 years preparing for a convention elections so he's not ready for the membership primaries. He'll try creating a Corbyn effect and get young voters out en mass. As the leader of the disabled protests to increase their benefits he'll probably try to register them in large quantities.
A second move will be to try and sway Labour socialists voters who backed Peretz and are disappointed to cross over.

Weaknesses: he looks like a divisive figure, he uses the colour red instead of the party green, and there is more than a scent of an upcoming schism if he wins it. Voters could be deterred as the situation where he is chairman but the PMP and party institutions have very few of his supporters will be quite bad.
He's not that big with old voters, and the Kibbutz voters (which I will address next time) aren't as large group as they were a decade ago, and he's also not really of them so he can't get the Stalinist levels of support Oron got there in 2008. If Zandberg chips too many young voters he's out of the game.

Strengths: His youth is highly galvanized and if they register enough voters we might see a coup. The winds of the era are socialist-populist and if he can channel that he might nick it.

My personal impression: I don't like him, as a politician or on the personal level. I also don't rate his intellect that highly (at all). Sadly, the young voters could tilt this election (I will return to this point in my next post) and he might just edge it. Too close to call yet.

3. The Mare - MK Tamar Zandberg
()

age: 41

education: LLB from Tel Aviv Uni. BA in psychology and economics from Tel Aviv Uni. MA in social psychology Ben-Gurion University, Phd student in politics & governance Ben-Gurion Uni.

popular with: young voters, socialists, social liberals, hipsters, Tel Aviv metro voters, secular voters, queer voters (younger than the gays), new generation of feminists.

Ticket: Legislation of weed, public transportation and urbanization, fighting religious oppression

Probable strategy: Galon and Gilon are old and still carry the marks of the old parties (Ratz and MAPAM). She was born and raised in Meretz so she can appeal to both factions. We'll see socialist sayings (hip ones) with civil rights ones on the same breathe. She'll have a young and hip counterculture campaign to try and bite into Gilon's appeal with young reds, and Galon's appeal with young feminists and gays.
She was a councilor in Tel Aviv before and she'll work hard on getting votes there as it's the largest chapter with almost half the membership. Some of her allies come from the cities in the TA metro and she'll work hard there with her anti-religious ticket.
As the daughter of a veteran Haaretz architecture journalist and the sister of a footballer, she's quite connected, I suppose we'll see a lot of musicians and artists support her.

Weaknesses: very weak with old voters, far too weak. weak outside of the TA metro area. She's in domestic partnership with Uri Zaki who twice tried to get in the list and failed, if he somehow comes to the spotlight it will hurt her.

Strengths: being young, hip, with a cross faction appeal (well and also attractive). If the election do drag to a second round that might give her enough edge to edge Gilon to second.

My personal impression: I like her, I think she's more attuned to what politicians should do in the 21st century and she could rejuvenate the party. I personally plan to vote for her. As to her odds...well she'll need a bit of luck and a catastrophic campaign by Gilon\Galon

4. The Dark Horse - Avi Dabush
()
age: 38

education: BA in sociology Ben Gurion Uni. MA sociology in BGU

Ticket: Sephardi, religious, periphery

probable strategy: register as many voters as he can in the Sephardi dominated cities of the north and the south. Bite into enough Gilon voters who like populist ideas but aren't actually Marxist (or don't care about that). Play the Sephardi oppression card that's hip now

weaknesses: he joined Merertz in 2013, he's not recognized enough and he appears inexperienced. Also, Meretz membership (next post I promise) doesn't really have a group that he could really ride to the top with

Strengths: bar for being young and fresh. none. maybe with the general public, less so with the membership

My personal impression: met him once, he didn't strike me as dumb unlike Gilon, just very much not Meretz. he gave some remark about the horrors modernity caused humanity and  I cringed. Thankfully, he doesn't really have a shot hear, too much of a nobody.

5. The New Comer - Avi Buskila
()
age: 42

education: couldn't find anything official, but I assume he has BA in some nonsense

ticket: veteran combat officer, dovish, eloquent speaker, gay and Sephardi - the new thing

probable strategy - bite of Zandberg as young and hip, bite of Dabush as Sephardi, bite of Galon as Dovish. Bite of everybody for being a good orator and fierce in criticism of the right. bite of the gays for being well gay. he'll try to get as many free voters registered and hope for the best.
He could be considered a bit to the right as he is a self proclaimed Zionist and probably has some stronger affinity to Judaism.
*I think it's a spin by Galon to broaden the debate and show how the primaries are a good thing, he'll quit before the end and run for the list next time
**interestingly he's the partner of former MK Horowitz longtime CoS

Weaknesses - new comer, the field is already quite packed

Strengths - great orator, has some good social media buzz behind him

My personal impression - never met him, he's a great speaker and will be a good addition to the party, not as a leader though

6. The outsider maverick - Imri Kalmann
()

age: 31

education: BA in PPE from Tel Aviv University

ticket: hardcore gay, outsider, radical change to the party (he wants to change the name to Eretz - literary 'country'), he's actually running in Tandem with one Anat Nir, I couldn't gather much part for the fact they were both strong in the Tel Aviv gay nightlife scene

probable strategy: actually he's rumored to have had registered 2500 supporters in last internal elections in late 2017. I don't know if the figure is true but he managed to get some 50 supporters in the 1000 members convention and he was elected the head of the Tel Aviv branch, so he must had some numbers at least in Tel Aviv. He started this initiative called Avocado to register members for a more "democratic party" as in a home to Arabs, and religious people as well. Which is funny as Imri is gay-married to an Arab men and the majority in both former groups would happily stone him to death over that.
I don't think he has a path to victory but if he registers enough people he might get a nice % on the day. Though I think Zandberg will offer him some combination deal to get his support (especially as he's familiar with a lot of her young activists) as he only ruled out Galon and Gilon

weaknesses: new comer, outsider, maverick suggestions, unbaked political platform and married to an Arab men (even in Israel's most liberal party this could raise eyebrows)

strengths: big independent supporters base, very popular with gays.

my personal impression: seems a rather incoherent young lad but one that can make it to the party list in current climate and new media politics. he'll do best to drop out and support Zandberg in turn of her support.

7. there is actually a number 7 who appears to be a weirdo - I couldn't even find his name


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on January 11, 2018, 12:16:09 PM
Is Gilon more hawkish/less of a peacenik than the other candidates? I remember that has been the way with more socialist candidates for Meretz leadership in the past.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on January 11, 2018, 12:50:32 PM
The Tankie?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 11, 2018, 01:44:17 PM
Is Gilon more hawkish/less of a peacenik than the other candidates? I remember that has been the way with more socialist candidates for Meretz leadership in the past.
You could say. He’s ofc 2SS supporter, but he opposed protests against military operations in Gaza. He doesn’t talk about the Palestinian issue that much


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Lourdes on January 11, 2018, 11:32:03 PM
So Galon is basically like the Meretz equivalent to Hillary Clinton, and Gilon is more like Bernie Sanders?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 12, 2018, 04:19:56 AM
So Galon is basically like the Meretz equivalent to Hillary Clinton, and Gilon is more like Bernie Sanders?
I don't see in what way bar for the fact that Gilon is a Marxist and Galon isn't.

Maariv poll
YA - 27
Likud - 22
ZU - 14
JH - 13
JL - 11
kulano - 9
UTJ - 8
Meretz - 7
YB - 5
Shas - 4

YA+ZU+Kulano+Meretz= 57. With YB he's got a coalition


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on January 12, 2018, 07:56:49 AM
Would that coalition work for the two state solution?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 12, 2018, 08:01:30 AM
Would that coalition work for the two state solution?
On paper yes, all parties support it. The likelihood an airhead like Lapid could negotiate something bigger than a car sale is slim though, especially with Gabay and Lieberman firing populist spins at him throughout


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on January 12, 2018, 11:28:28 AM
So Galon is basically like the Meretz equivalent to Hillary Clinton, and Gilon is more like Bernie Sanders?

Yes. Absolutely.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Tintrlvr on January 12, 2018, 11:54:16 AM
So Galon is basically like the Meretz equivalent to Hillary Clinton, and Gilon is more like Bernie Sanders?

Gilon is way, way to Sanders's left, much closer to traditional communist economic views than most self-declared socialists are today (while Sanders is on the right of socialism). And Galon is well left of Hillary Clinton, probably closer economically to Sanders. Meretz in general is far to the left of the Democratic Party (it is, after all, a party that could command no more than maybe 10% of the vote in Israel at absolute maximum, the total it got at its peak in 1992).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 12, 2018, 01:50:00 PM
So Galon is basically like the Meretz equivalent to Hillary Clinton, and Gilon is more like Bernie Sanders?

Yes. Absolutely.

You can't really speak with this confidence about something so subjective.

Also, Hnv1, thanks for the info post, it was very intersting!


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on January 12, 2018, 01:56:21 PM
If Bernie Sanders lived in Israel, he would be in Likud.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 12, 2018, 02:05:30 PM
If Bernie Sanders lived in Israel, he would be in Likud.

...That is quite clearly wrong.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on January 12, 2018, 02:11:02 PM
If Bernie Sanders lived in Israel, he would be in Likud.

...That is quite clearly wrong.

I'm joking. I'm making fun of the idea that you can't compare Sanders to Gilon because Israel is more to the economically to the left.

There's a very clear parallel between them even if they don't match up EXACTLY.

When the Sanders campaign was going on, people used to despute the idea that you could compare Sanders to Melenchon or Corbyn because they were further to the left (which is true but pedantic).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 14, 2018, 10:07:39 AM
a 5th contender stepped in, Avi Buskila, the chairman of Peace Now and a gay Sephardi. I have doubts that he will run all the way or that he's not managed somehow by Galon but I'll review him anyway. Some reporter is claiming Maj. Gen. Noam Tibon is also considering a run.

The New Comer - Avi Buskila
()
age: 42

education: couldn't find anything official, but I assume he has BA in some nonsense

ticket: veteran combat officer, dovish, eloquent speaker, gay and Sephardi - the new thing

probable strategy - bite of Zandberg as young and hip, bite of Dabush as Sephardi, bite of Galon as Dovish. Bite of everybody for being a good orator and fierce in criticism of the right. bite of the gays for being well gay. he'll try to get as many free voters registered and hope for the best.
He could be considered a bit to the right as he is a self proclaimed Zionist and probably has some stronger affinity to Judaism.
*I think it's a spin by Galon to broaden the debate and show how the primaries are a good thing, he'll quit before the end and run for the list next time
**interestingly he's the partner of former MK Horowitz longtime CoS

Weaknesses - new comer, the field is already quite packed

Strengths - great orator, has some good social media buzz behind him

My personal impression - never met him, he's a great speaker and will be a good addition to the party, not as a leader though

____________________________________________________________________
former MK Ran Cohen endorses Zandberg (she was his aide). former Chairman Beilin also supports her, though he's not so popular so I don't see much help there.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Kingpoleon on January 14, 2018, 12:00:37 PM
Sounds like someone Zandberg would like - young, socially liberal, great speaker...

Any chance that he comes in third?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 14, 2018, 12:26:39 PM
Sounds like someone Zandberg would like - young, socially liberal, great speaker...

Any chance that he comes in third?
Can’t see it. Too late. But he could nick 4th a d definitely get on the list before the GE


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 14, 2018, 12:38:36 PM
How come he's comparably right wing? Isn't Peace Now extremely dovish?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 14, 2018, 01:14:17 PM
How come he's comparably right wing? Isn't Peace Now extremely dovish?
Not extremely as compared to Betzelem or Yesh Din who’s members are also in Meretz. Peace now historically sat on the left of Labour and the Right of Meretz


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 14, 2018, 01:36:47 PM
YA+ZU+Kulano+Meretz= 57. With YB he's got a coalition
This... doesn't sound bad.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 14, 2018, 02:11:20 PM
YA+ZU+Kulano+Meretz= 57. With YB he's got a coalition
This... doesn't sound bad.
Who are you and what have you done to David?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 15, 2018, 10:20:04 AM
I know most posters don't care, but as other political news are quite boring (until the police finally concludes the Bibi investigations) I'll just keep updating on the primaries

- In order to allow as many voters to participate the set date for voters registration is next month. Zandberg, Dabush, and Buskila all claim to have registered a lot of voters. I tend to believe them though they may exaggerate on numbers (Zandberg claimed 1K).

- Avi Dabush has the backing and supports the 2 states 1 homeland movement which basically supports one confederation from the river to the sea. That's a shift from the classic 2 state solution.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on January 16, 2018, 08:13:31 AM
the meretz party primary really intresting,as a labour member i considering to cancel my labour membarship and registar as a meretz member and voting for tamar znazberg.
tamar is great-she is pro Legalization of marijuana,pro Freedom from religion and i think this is the way that meretz should go,the Legalization thing alone worth At least two Mandates.                     
  but i also want to replace the disaster who called avi gabay so it is a tough choice.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 16, 2018, 08:20:10 AM
the meretz party primary really intresting,as a labour member i considering to cancel my labour membarship and registar as a meretz member and voting for tamar znazberg.
tamar is great-she is pro Legalization of marijuana,pro Freedom from religion and i think this is the way that meretz should go,the Legalization thing alone worth At least two Mandates.                     
  but i also want to replace the disaster who called avi gabay so it is a tough choice.
Gabay won’t stand for re-election until 18 months past the next General Election


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on January 16, 2018, 08:32:34 AM
the meretz party primary really intresting,as a labour member i considering to cancel my labour membarship and registar as a meretz member and voting for tamar znazberg.
tamar is great-she is pro Legalization of marijuana,pro Freedom from religion and i think this is the way that meretz should go,the Legalization thing alone worth At least two Mandates.                     
  but i also want to replace the disaster who called avi gabay so it is a tough choice.
Gabay won’t stand for re-election until 18 months past the next General Election
Unless the Labour Party Conference will imeach him and called for another primary like they did to Benjamin ben Eliezer


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 16, 2018, 11:42:29 AM
the meretz party primary really intresting,as a labour member i considering to cancel my labour membarship and registar as a meretz member and voting for tamar znazberg.
tamar is great-she is pro Legalization of marijuana,pro Freedom from religion and i think this is the way that meretz should go,the Legalization thing alone worth At least two Mandates.                     
  but i also want to replace the disaster who called avi gabay so it is a tough choice.
Gabay won’t stand for re-election until 18 months past the next General Election
Unless the Labour Party Conference will imeach him and called for another primary like they did to Benjamin ben Eliezer
There’s absolutely no way this happens.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on January 16, 2018, 03:59:40 PM
the meretz party primary really intresting,as a labour member i considering to cancel my labour membarship and registar as a meretz member and voting for tamar znazberg.
tamar is great-she is pro Legalization of marijuana,pro Freedom from religion and i think this is the way that meretz should go,the Legalization thing alone worth At least two Mandates.                     
  but i also want to replace the disaster who called avi gabay so it is a tough choice.
Gabay won’t stand for re-election until 18 months past the next General Election
Unless the Labour Party Conference will imeach him and called for another primary like they did to Benjamin ben Eliezer
There’s absolutely no way this happens.
More and more people in the Labour Party(even those who supported Gabay) unsderstand that he as a phony,a right winger who stole the Labour Party.
Especially after he tried to force the Labour mk's to vote for deportation of refugees)and not successfully)
So dont underestimate on that possibility.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 17, 2018, 09:03:22 AM
the meretz party primary really intresting,as a labour member i considering to cancel my labour membarship and registar as a meretz member and voting for tamar znazberg.
tamar is great-she is pro Legalization of marijuana,pro Freedom from religion and i think this is the way that meretz should go,the Legalization thing alone worth At least two Mandates.                     
  but i also want to replace the disaster who called avi gabay so it is a tough choice.
Gabay won’t stand for re-election until 18 months past the next General Election
Unless the Labour Party Conference will imeach him and called for another primary like they did to Benjamin ben Eliezer
There’s absolutely no way this happens.
More and more people in the Labour Party(even those who supported Gabay) unsderstand that he as a phony,a right winger who stole the Labour Party.
Especially after he tried to force the Labour mk's to vote for deportation of refugees)and not successfully)
So dont underestimate on that possibility.
If this happens before a GE the party will fall to single digits. More likely is Peretz breaking away with rebels and Gilon joining him after he loses that old tw*t


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on January 17, 2018, 09:55:29 AM
the meretz party primary really intresting,as a labour member i considering to cancel my labour membarship and registar as a meretz member and voting for tamar znazberg.
tamar is great-she is pro Legalization of marijuana,pro Freedom from religion and i think this is the way that meretz should go,the Legalization thing alone worth At least two Mandates.                     
  but i also want to replace the disaster who called avi gabay so it is a tough choice.
Gabay won’t stand for re-election until 18 months past the next General Election
Unless the Labour Party Conference will imeach him and called for another primary like they did to Benjamin ben Eliezer
There’s absolutely no way this happens.
More and more people in the Labour Party(even those who supported Gabay) unsderstand that he as a phony,a right winger who stole the Labour Party.
Especially after he tried to force the Labour mk's to vote for deportation of refugees)and not successfully)
So dont underestimate on that possibility.
If this happens before a GE the party will fall to single digits. More likely is Peretz breaking away with rebels and Gilon joining him after he loses that old tw*t

Right now the party is falling on the polls.
Peretz isn't going to do the same mistake that he did 5 years ago,he will stay and wait after that Gabay will crash in the election(and he will).
I voted for Peretz in the primary(the only dovish candidate maybe exept margalit and the only one who could became pm) but i prefer  EVREYONE  than the phony Gabay(exept Shelly).
Especially after Gabay supported deportion of refugees to their death!


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 18, 2018, 05:40:00 AM
If you don't support deporting the Africans, you are a traitor to Israel.

#HotTake


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on January 21, 2018, 11:44:50 AM
New walla news poll:
YA:25
Likud:24
ZU:15
JH:13
JL:11
UTJ:8
Kulanu:8
Meretz:7
YB:5
Shas:4
Nothing new,Netanyahu still has a coalition,Shas falling because Deri investigations,Gabay doing pretty weakly and Meretz getting a little more stronger because Gabay right-winger stands on many issues.
Other intersting poll is about the stands of Likud voters on Yair Netanyahu(son of):
nietral opinion:45%
negative opinion:31%
positive oponion:19%
don't know:5%


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 26, 2018, 05:19:48 AM
Second post on the Meretz primaries - the voter groups and demographics.

Membership surged from 17K to 21,890, I expect it will grow to around 23K by the end of the registration process. So everything I write is of course my own opinion and analysis and I will advice anyone with caution, with such small numbers little fluctuations could have huge impact on results. Also, I suspect membership also surged because of the upcoming municipal elections where different chapters (especially Tel Aviv, TA metro area, and Jerusalem; will also vote on their local party list).

So we'll start with the big groups:

Kibbutzim - Meretz was founded by Ratz, Shinoi, and Mapam which was essentially by 1988 the party of the Kibbutz Haartzi (Kibbutzim aligned to Hashomer Hatzair) and some old urban socialists. In all the leadership elections from 1992 onward they were the tipping point as they were all registered through the movement and didn't have to register individually, and they also voted in high percentages as well (that's the culture they came from). Both 2003 and 2008 were won by the Kibbutz votes going heavily to Beilin and Oron.

Things have changed. Meretz gets around 30% of the Hashomer Hatzair Kibbutz votes (Labour also gets 35%). The younger generation is not always as left wing. Different Kibbutz have different ethos and it's sometimes very idiosyncratic and decided by one local popular figure. Gan Shmuel (the largest Kibbutz), will go for Galon and Zandberg, while Metzer will go to Gilon, all more due to local leaders than ideology. There's also hasn't been a Kibbutz MK since Avshalom Vilan.

Now voters have to register individually and only in Kibbutz where there are over 35 members will there be a ballot, so their strength will be greatly reduced this time around. Also I suspect a more even divide in votes this time than 2008.

Though Gilon was born and bred in Mapam, he is not of a Kibbutz so he won't be getting the Stalinist levels of support you would expect. He might edge to win the sector by a bit but Galon will not be far behind as she's popular with old voters, and the Kibbutz sector has plenty of those.
I also expect the Kibbutz of the south to go with Gilon and those of the north to go with Galon.

Kibbutzniks tend to emphasize Zionism and military service, so a candidate more the right like Gilon could profit, and even Buskila could sway a bit to his cause.

The Feminist Branch

a ragtag coalition of feminist organizations, they got Galon elected in 2013. She'll probably will still have their support, but Zandberg will bite into it with the younger more radical members.

The Tel Aviv branch

The single largest branch in Israel (I suspect around 20% of overall membership), Meretz also has 6\31 city seats and may run someone for mayor so this election will also have an interesting interplay with the municipal arena.

Zandberg was a local councilor and enjoys large support with the young voters. But Galon and Gilon also have their bases here. Zandberg has to maximize her vote her if she wants to reach the second round.

As to the voters profile, well really have everything from everything. Old, young, gays (loads of them), hipster socialists, artists, hippies, etc. I suspect that if Zandberg carries Tel Aviv by +5 margin in the first round she'll make it to the second

The medium sized groups:

The peace coalition
The rag tag coalition of peace organization and anti occupation movements. Mossi Raz and Gabby Lasky are their known "leaders". Galon had their backing so far, but Zandberg will bite into it and even Buskila (though he was Peace Now CEO he smells too right for the anti occupation crowd) will get some. Gilon has very little to offer here.

Tel Aviv Metro Branches
lots of branches with big membership each. Will also have municipal interplay. A toss up between Zandberg and Galon

The Arab Sector
Very traditional in the way they work. A politico up front who decides for the rest. Galon has it in her pocket.

Young Socialists
Young, socialist, populist, probably really bad in math. Gilon's big power base, they'll try registering anyone in their facebook friends to vote.

Free Voters
it's actually a large group, but it's so varied I have a hard time giving an estimate to the way they'll vote. One of the biggest battlegrounds.

LGBTQ community
Meretz was once their only voice, this changed a bit. 3 years ago I would say Galon would have easily got this, but she had some fights with big weight activist so Zandberg could bite into her here.

The small groups

Environmentalists
A small group (in general in Israeli politics), will probably go with Zandberg

The Ex Labourites
Gilon has a little surge of those, especially from the Social-Democratic camp. I know several hundreds joined since the race was announced. will probably go 70-20-10 for Gilon, Galon, and Buskila respectively.

The Jewish periphery
Dabush is working hard to register voters there. He is getting some results but it will be far too little. Gilon will come second.

The reform Jews and such
not a big group outside of Jerusalem, very American. will probably divide between Zandberg and Galon


You can think of other sets of voters like the secular voters, the anti-haredi, and etc. using the Axiom of Choice. But I can't see them as a real group but rather as a tag. I already discussed young and old voters so I won't repeat myself.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 28, 2018, 11:16:47 AM
MK Alalouf (Kulano) announced he's retiring before the next elections. he did not get on well with Kachlon.

Boogie Yaalon is in a pickle, he's new platform he's not lifting off and he gave an interview this weekend that made him look like a complete fraud. PM hopes would have to wait

Speaker of the house Edelstein (likud) was caught on tape criticizing Bibi's leadership and half the MKs in Likud. He's actually quite popular with the grassroots and was rumored to be thinking of leadership himself. Interesting.

Sarah Netanyahu. Well finally after all this years a tape of her in one of her famous tantrums was released. as expected she sounds quite mental.

I edited the original post on the candidates in the Meretz primaries as 2 fringe candidates join in the last week or so.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Kingpoleon on January 28, 2018, 04:55:11 PM
MK Alalouf (Kulano) announced he's retiring before the next elections. he did not get on well with Kachlon.

Boogie Yaalon is in a pickle, he's new platform he's not lifting off and he gave an interview this weekend that made him look like a complete fraud. PM hopes would have to wait

Speaker of the house Edelstein (likud) was caught on tape criticizing Bibi's leadership and half the MKs in Likud. He's actually quite popular with the grassroots and was rumored to be thinking of leadership himself. Interesting.

Sarah Netanyahu. Well finally after all this years a tape of her in one of her famous tantrums was released. as expected she sounds quite mental.

I edited the original post on the candidates in the Meretz primaries as 2 fringe candidates join in the last week or so.

Edelstein criticized Netanyahu?

Oh boy. He must be pretty sure of himself to do so.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 29, 2018, 07:43:34 AM
MK Alalouf (Kulano) announced he's retiring before the next elections. he did not get on well with Kachlon.

Boogie Yaalon is in a pickle, he's new platform he's not lifting off and he gave an interview this weekend that made him look like a complete fraud. PM hopes would have to wait

Speaker of the house Edelstein (likud) was caught on tape criticizing Bibi's leadership and half the MKs in Likud. He's actually quite popular with the grassroots and was rumored to be thinking of leadership himself. Interesting.

Sarah Netanyahu. Well finally after all this years a tape of her in one of her famous tantrums was released. as expected she sounds quite mental.

I edited the original post on the candidates in the Meretz primaries as 2 fringe candidates join in the last week or so.

Edelstein criticized Netanyahu?

Oh boy. He must be pretty sure of himself to do so.
recorded without his knowledge


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 30, 2018, 07:06:55 AM
Labour MKs Stav Shaffir and Michal Biran were suspended from the Knesset's general assembly for a week. The former for calling Likud MK Miki Zohar corrupt (a guy who explicitly tried to blackmail the coalition and get millions of shekels for his personal interests and attempted to pass a workaround that gave a tax relief specifically for cities that voted Likud), and the latter for calling Likud MK Oren Hazan a pimp (the guy who was literally proven in a courtroom to have managed a Bulgarian Casino that included prostitution).
This is the situation of the Israeli democracy- you get punished for telling the truth. The Likud has lost every shred of dignity- the only thing that can save the Israeli right from its moral bankruptcy is tearing all of these parties apart and starting anew.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 30, 2018, 11:39:59 AM
And Oren Hazan himself has been removed for six months, much longer than Shaffir, Biran and Raz, whose membership was suspended for only one week (still, this is very bad too). All of this is incredibly ridiculous and will damage trust in politics. Suspending the mandate of democratically elected lawmakers should not be possible. And democratically elected lawmakers should behave themselves.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 30, 2018, 12:08:24 PM
And Oren Hazan himself has been removed for six months, much longer than Shaffir, Biran and Raz, whose membership was suspended for one week for a week. All of this is incredibly ridiculous and will damage trust in politics. Suspending the mandate of democratically elected lawmakers should not be possible. And democratically elected lawmakers should behave themselves.

Yeah, but this is not a kindergarden- suspending Hazan doesn't make suspending the others rightful.
I'm not sure that suspending him was such a bad decision, to be honest. I mean, I don't usually watch Knesset sessions, but whenever I watch parts of almost any speech by a vaguely left-wing figure, there's always this shouting buffoon in the background, interrupting and screaming without any way to stop him. This guy is a serious problem for the normal democratic process in the Knesset, the way I see it. Like you said, he should behave himself, and of course, not only him- this entire tradition of screaming and shouting whenever someone speaks in the Knesset is honestly pathetic, and I never saw it in any other Western parliament. I agree that suspending a democratically elected lawmaker is problematic, but what other way would you enforce decorum on an unceasing trouble-maker like Hazan?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 30, 2018, 05:23:39 PM
And Oren Hazan himself has been removed for six months, much longer than Shaffir, Biran and Raz, whose membership was suspended for one week for a week. All of this is incredibly ridiculous and will damage trust in politics. Suspending the mandate of democratically elected lawmakers should not be possible. And democratically elected lawmakers should behave themselves.

Yeah, but this is not a kindergarden- suspending Hazan doesn't make suspending the others rightful.
I'm not sure that suspending him was such a bad decision, to be honest. I mean, I don't usually watch Knesset sessions, but whenever I watch parts of almost any speech by a vaguely left-wing figure, there's always this shouting buffoon in the background, interrupting and screaming without any way to stop him. This guy is a serious problem for the normal democratic process in the Knesset, the way I see it. Like you said, he should behave himself, and of course, not only him- this entire tradition of screaming and shouting whenever someone speaks in the Knesset is honestly pathetic, and I never saw it in any other Western parliament. I agree that suspending a democratically elected lawmaker is problematic, but what other way would you enforce decorum on an unceasing trouble-maker like Hazan?
British parliament climbs to higher tones and it’s actually not 3/4 empty for 99% of the time like ours. As to the matter I agree with David, suspending them is actually suspending a portion of the political mandate given to the house, in addition this is done by an internal body with minimal judicial review and can lead to dangerous political advantage taking (suspending opposition members for minor misconduct).

But Hazan wasn’t suspended from the house, he was the deputy speaker and he was suspended from that role.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 31, 2018, 06:55:02 AM
Sorry, I just saw that he was suspended from the house now for 6 months. Terrible decision, they should allow someone else to take his place for that duration, after the Norwegian bill the personal mandate is dead anyhow.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 01, 2018, 02:40:20 PM
MK Youssef Al-Atouna resigned to keep the Byzantine balance within the joint Arab list. Someone from Balad places 18th will be sworn in instead. Interestingly if 2 more resign we’ll have a second Jew on the list with Lea Zemmel, that will be the first Hadash had 2 Jewish MKs since 1989


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on February 01, 2018, 04:38:55 PM
Like you said, he should behave himself, and of course, not only him- this entire tradition of screaming and shouting whenever someone speaks in the Knesset is honestly pathetic, and I never saw it in any other Western parliament.

We have this sort of stuff in the British House of Commons all the time. Perhaps you inherited from us when we ran the old Mandate?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on February 01, 2018, 05:45:55 PM
MK Youssef Al-Atouna resigned to keep the Byzantine balance within the joint Arab list. Someone from Balad places 18th will be sworn in instead. Interestingly if 2 more resign we’ll have a second Jew on the list with Lea Zemmel, that will be the first Hadash had 2 Jewish MKs since 1989
She is from Balad,not Hadash.
She might be the first jewish MK from balad and the third female.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on February 02, 2018, 02:41:00 AM
MK Youssef Al-Atouna resigned to keep the Byzantine balance within the joint Arab list. Someone from Balad places 18th will be sworn in instead. Interestingly if 2 more resign we’ll have a second Jew on the list with Lea Zemmel, that will be the first Hadash had 2 Jewish MKs since 1989
She is from Balad,not Hadash.
She might be the first jewish MK from balad and the third female.

A Jewish MK from an Arabic nationalist party? Now that's unique.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 02, 2018, 05:24:50 AM
MK Youssef Al-Atouna resigned to keep the Byzantine balance within the joint Arab list. Someone from Balad places 18th will be sworn in instead. Interestingly if 2 more resign we’ll have a second Jew on the list with Lea Zemmel, that will be the first Hadash had 2 Jewish MKs since 1989
She is from Balad,not Hadash.
She might be the first jewish MK from balad and the third female.

A Jewish MK from an Arabic nationalist party? Now that's unique.
Sorry my bad, she a d her husband were both Hadash in the 80’s

Actually Balad identifies as a liberal one state no nationality party (reality is different of course), they have some Jews including one who operates a book publisher specializing in translation from Arabic.
We need to remember the average Balad voter is more educated than the average Hadash voter, they’re strong with young people who got higher education but hate Hadash who are the “establishment” in the Arab Society. I actually think that with the right work and some courage lots of them could vote Meretz


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on February 02, 2018, 09:17:15 AM
I read in rotter net forum that 10 ZU MK's planing to spilt from ZU.
According to the constitution of the Labor Party if two third of the MK's spilting from the party so they taking with them the party name and its institutions,because 5 of the 10 MK's are from the Hatnua must be another 8 MK's from Labour to this move.
I dont know if it is true (Israel Hayom) but i hope so.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 02, 2018, 09:31:15 AM
I read i rotter net forum that 10 ZU MK's planing to spilt from ZU.
According to the constitution of the Labor Party if two third of the MK's spilting from the party so they taking with them the party name and its institutions,because 5 of the 10 MK's are from the Hatnua must be another 8 MK's from Labour to this move.
I dont know if it is true (Israel Hayom) but i hope so.

Link? Sounds like utter rubbish to me


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on February 02, 2018, 09:55:12 AM
I read i rotter net forum that 10 ZU MK's planing to spilt from ZU.
According to the constitution of the Labor Party if two third of the MK's spilting from the party so they taking with them the party name and its institutions,because 5 of the 10 MK's are from the Hatnua must be another 8 MK's from Labour to this move.
I dont know if it is true (Israel Hayom) but i hope so.

Link? Sounds like utter rubbish to me
http://www.israelhayom.co.il/article/532477


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 08, 2018, 02:06:29 AM
So I was wrong, more than 25,000 registered with Meretz already (half of Labour’s membership now), and it will probably increase by the end of the registration (18.2). My previous analysis is now largely irrelevant, this is now a toss up, who ever registered more will carry this.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 13, 2018, 01:53:07 PM
Finally: The police recommends the indictment of Bibi on 2 bribe charges.
This is going to be tasty


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on February 13, 2018, 02:17:21 PM
#itshappening


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: They put it to a vote and they just kept lying on February 13, 2018, 02:19:34 PM
HOO BOY

I dont usually follow Israeli politics, but Bibi graduated from my high school. This is fun.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on February 13, 2018, 02:27:21 PM
Finally: The police recommends the indictment of Bibi on 2 bribe charges.
This is going to be tasty

Any chance he's not indicted now?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 13, 2018, 02:28:58 PM
it remains to be seen, officially we need to wait for the decision of the attorney general. But public opinion could be harsh if Bennet or Kachlon won't demand his head right now.

some facts:
- the sum of money in the first bribe case is 1 million NIS (around 12 times the sum Olmert went to jai for)
- Bibi did not refute this claim in his speech, but rather claimed he did not provide anything in return
- Lapid is a witness in one of the cases as he claimed Bibi wanted to pass a legislation giving tax breaks to "returning citizens" for 10 years while he was the Minister of the Treasury


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 13, 2018, 02:31:45 PM
Finally: The police recommends the indictment of Bibi on 2 bribe charges.
This is going to be tasty

Any chance he's not indicted now?
Yes, If Mendelblit decides to close the case or reduce the charge from full on bribery. From what I can read from the evidence this is unlikely, especially in the Bibi-Moses charges.

I wouldn't be surprised if we have a big military operation soon, or a snap election to force Mendelblit's hands


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Citizen (The) Doctor on February 13, 2018, 03:16:59 PM
it remains to be seen, officially we need to wait for the decision of the attorney general. But public opinion could be harsh if Bennet or Kachlon won't demand his head right now.

some facts:
- the sum of money in the first bribe case is 1 million NIS (around 12 times the sum Olmert went to jai for)
- Bibi did not refute this claim in his speech, but rather claimed he did not provide anything in return
- Lapid is a witness in one of the cases as he claimed Bibi wanted to pass a legislation giving tax breaks to "returning citizens" for 10 years while he was the Minister of the Treasury

()


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on February 14, 2018, 12:10:29 PM
it remains to be seen, officially we need to wait for the decision of the attorney general. But public opinion could be harsh if Bennet or Kachlon won't demand his head right now.

some facts:
- the sum of money in the first bribe case is 1 million NIS (around 12 times the sum Olmert went to jai for)
- Bibi did not refute this claim in his speech, but rather claimed he did not provide anything in return
- Lapid is a witness in one of the cases as he claimed Bibi wanted to pass a legislation giving tax breaks to "returning citizens" for 10 years while he was the Minister of the Treasury
It isn't a conflict of interests? will court accepted that?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: jaichind on February 14, 2018, 01:58:24 PM
Israeli Poll Shows 48% Want Netanyahu To Resign vs 36% Against
By Jonathan Ferziger
(Bloomberg) -- Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud Party would still come in first if new elections are called, winning 26 seats in the 120-member Knesset, followed by 22 for the Yesh Atid party, 15 for Labor, according to a poll conducted for Hadashot TV News.

Wow .. after all this Likud is still ahead of Yesh Atid


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 15, 2018, 04:11:01 AM
it remains to be seen, officially we need to wait for the decision of the attorney general. But public opinion could be harsh if Bennet or Kachlon won't demand his head right now.

some facts:
- the sum of money in the first bribe case is 1 million NIS (around 12 times the sum Olmert went to jai for)
- Bibi did not refute this claim in his speech, but rather claimed he did not provide anything in return
- Lapid is a witness in one of the cases as he claimed Bibi wanted to pass a legislation giving tax breaks to "returning citizens" for 10 years while he was the Minister of the Treasury
It isn't a conflict of interests? will court accepted that?
Depends on the content of the testimony, if it’s official documents from the treasury I don’t se why not, if it’s verbal testimony Lapid must had something to support it according to the local law of evidence

Kachlon and Bennet day they won’t resign until the attorney general decides. It could take months.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 18, 2018, 02:34:57 PM
News:
- Bibi's criminal woes intensifies as case 4000 about alleged corrupt relations with the owner of Walla! internet media hub reach a boiling point. Two of his top advisers were arrested (Nir Hefetz among them) and the police are racing forward

- Meretz primaries registration is over, final tally is just over 30K which is quite remarkable considering a. Labour had 55K during their leadership primaries b. there were 165K Meretz voters last GE. Zandberg had an impressive machine working, and Galon got lots of Arabs registered, Gilon also didn't sleep. It's going to be interesting.

- 2 new justices are to be appointed to the SCoJ, one is going to be prof. Alex Stein who is pushed by Shaked (mildly liberal in a conservative sense, but not so right wing). The other will be one of 5 District Court Judges, most liberal is prof. Grosskopf, most conservative is probably Winograd of Jerusalem (though an impressive person)  

- Quasi decriminalization of cannabis is moving forward, consumers will be criminalized only after 4 misconducts.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Unapologetic Chinaperson on February 18, 2018, 05:31:46 PM
HOO BOY

I dont usually follow Israeli politics, but Bibi graduated from my high school. This is fun.

Wait what? How?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Comrade Funk on February 18, 2018, 05:39:16 PM
HOO BOY

I dont usually follow Israeli politics, but Bibi graduated from my high school. This is fun.

Wait what? How?
He went to school in the Philly suburbs


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 20, 2018, 06:30:41 AM
Well, when things fall apart the pace is accelerating. Bibi's top adviser who's now under arrest is now believed to have offered a sitting judge the position of an attorney general if she closes the criminal cases against Sarah Netanyahu. Bibi denies any knowledge but this is not all that different than the Bar On-Hebron scandal of his first tenure


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on February 21, 2018, 12:26:11 AM
Gabay admitted that the falling of the Labour party on the polls is part of his fault,now he should step down and give to a real leader the chance to beat the corrupt Likud government.
My offer is Tzipi Livni-smart,talented,charismatic,experienced and beautiful women.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on February 21, 2018, 05:00:03 AM
Well, when things fall apart the pace is accelerating. Bibi's top adviser who's now under arrest is now believed to have offered a sitting judge the position of an attorney general if she closes the criminal cases against Sarah Netanyahu. Bibi denies any knowledge but this is not all that different than the Bar On-Hebron scandal of his first tenure

Yep, and now there's another top advisor and former CEO of the Communications Ministry who will be a state witness against Netanyahu in the investigation about him giving Bezek (a communications firm) owner Shaul Elovitch benefits in exchange for better coverage in the media firm he owns at the same time, Walla. We now see in full light how corrupt the system of government-media barons is.
It's actually quite ironic- Netanyahu's obsession with media coverage will take him down, while he could've stayed on as PM for years more, bad coverage or not, if not for these investigations.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 21, 2018, 05:50:40 AM
Well, when things fall apart the pace is accelerating. Bibi's top adviser who's now under arrest is now believed to have offered a sitting judge the position of an attorney general if she closes the criminal cases against Sarah Netanyahu. Bibi denies any knowledge but this is not all that different than the Bar On-Hebron scandal of his first tenure

Yep, and now there's another top advisor and former CEO of the Communications Ministry who will be a state witness against Netanyahu in the investigation about him giving Bezek (a communications firm) owner Shaul Elovitch benefits in exchange for better coverage in the media firm he owns at the same time, Walla. We now see in full light how corrupt the system of government-media barons is.
It's actually quite ironic- Netanyahu's obsession with media coverage will take him down, while he could've stayed on as PM for years more, bad coverage or not, if not for these investigations.
Waiting to see who’s the first Likud minister to show him the door


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on February 21, 2018, 06:31:37 AM
Well, when things fall apart the pace is accelerating. Bibi's top adviser who's now under arrest is now believed to have offered a sitting judge the position of an attorney general if she closes the criminal cases against Sarah Netanyahu. Bibi denies any knowledge but this is not all that different than the Bar On-Hebron scandal of his first tenure

Yep, and now there's another top advisor and former CEO of the Communications Ministry who will be a state witness against Netanyahu in the investigation about him giving Bezek (a communications firm) owner Shaul Elovitch benefits in exchange for better coverage in the media firm he owns at the same time, Walla. We now see in full light how corrupt the system of government-media barons is.
It's actually quite ironic- Netanyahu's obsession with media coverage will take him down, while he could've stayed on as PM for years more, bad coverage or not, if not for these investigations.
Waiting to see who’s the first Likud minister to show him the door
No one,the are all cowards,all the Likud ministers and MK's.
Exept Hazan who is a joke anyway.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 21, 2018, 07:53:00 AM
Gabay admitted that the falling of the Labour party on the polls is part of his fault,now he should step down and give to a real leader the chance to beat the corrupt Likud government.
My offer is Tzipi Livni-smart,talented,charismatic,experienced and beautiful women.
The leader of the ZU must be the leader of the Labour party. As to her appearance, I don't see how that's relevant, Shaked is rather attractive yet I would rather have Hazan as PM.

Well the news is all doom and gloom today with everyone asking when instead of if he should resign\be forced out. I think it will take a while but when it does it will be similar to the last 2 days, one crack in the dam and the coalition with his premiership will be dead and we'll have a snap election.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on February 21, 2018, 01:34:54 PM
Gabay admitted that the falling of the Labour party on the polls is part of his fault,now he should step down and give to a real leader the chance to beat the corrupt Likud government.
My offer is Tzipi Livni-smart,talented,charismatic,experienced and beautiful women.
The leader of the ZU must be the leader of the Labour party. As to her appearance, I don't see how that's relevant, Shaked is rather attractive yet I would rather have Hazan as PM.

Well the news is all doom and gloom today with everyone asking when instead of if he should resign\be forced out. I think it will take a while but when it does it will be similar to the last 2 days, one crack in the dam and the coalition with his premiership will be dead and we'll have a snap election.
If Livni would decide to run separately from the Labour,she has my vote.
I am not ready to support right-winger even if he is from my party.
Snap election isn't going to happean! Kahlon made it pretty claer.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on February 21, 2018, 05:43:28 PM
Gabay admitted that the falling of the Labour party on the polls is part of his fault,now he should step down and give to a real leader the chance to beat the corrupt Likud government.
My offer is Tzipi Livni-smart,talented,charismatic,experienced and beautiful women.
The leader of the ZU must be the leader of the Labour party. As to her appearance, I don't see how that's relevant, Shaked is rather attractive yet I would rather have Hazan as PM.

Well the news is all doom and gloom today with everyone asking when instead of if he should resign\be forced out. I think it will take a while but when it does it will be similar to the last 2 days, one crack in the dam and the coalition with his premiership will be dead and we'll have a snap election.
If Livni would decide to run separately from the Labour,she has my vote.
I am not ready to support right-winger even if he is from my party.
Snap election isn't going to happean! Kahlon made it pretty claer.

Livni isn't that much of a leftist either. I respect her, but she was a classical Likud member once, then she was a centrist, then she joined Netanyahu's government (and sat with Bennett) and now she's in an alliance with Labour. That's not a particularly leftist record.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 22, 2018, 08:09:09 AM
So, uh, is this, like, actually happening? Is Bibi finally leaving the premiership once and for all? This is surreal.
It will be a while still but legally I can’t see him escaping indictment now let alone actual jail time. I would caution that he’s going to burn every bridge and create every constitutional crisis he can along the way. Likud voters don’t care much for this anyway so they’ll support him even if he’s charged with murder. they are really the lowest form of citizens, I have more fruitful discussions with JH voters


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Mike88 on February 22, 2018, 03:23:45 PM
So, uh, is this, like, actually happening? Is Bibi finally leaving the premiership once and for all? This is surreal.
It will be a while still but legally I can’t see him escaping indictment now let alone actual jail time. I would caution that he’s going to burn every bridge and create every constitutional crisis he can along the way. Likud voters don’t care much for this anyway so they’ll support him even if he’s charged with murder. they are really the lowest form of citizens, I have more fruitful discussions with JH voters
But wouldn't he become toxic to Likud's chances in the next election? I say this because here we had, and still have, a similar situation involving the former PS PM José Sócrates. At the beginning almost everybody in the PS, except Costa, supported him and tried to defend him but as time passed, and the proofs became more and more irrefutable, the support some PS members were giving him was, in part, damaging the PS in the polls, leading to their defeat in the 2015 elections.

My point is that Bibi could become a liability to the party, but how powerfull is the Likud "establishment" in order to force him out in a way to save their chances in the next elections?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 22, 2018, 03:40:50 PM
So, uh, is this, like, actually happening? Is Bibi finally leaving the premiership once and for all? This is surreal.
It will be a while still but legally I can’t see him escaping indictment now let alone actual jail time. I would caution that he’s going to burn every bridge and create every constitutional crisis he can along the way. Likud voters don’t care much for this anyway so they’ll support him even if he’s charged with murder. they are really the lowest form of citizens, I have more fruitful discussions with JH voters
But wouldn't he become toxic to Likud's chances in the next election? I say this because here we had, and still have, a similar situation involving the former PS PM José Sócrates. At the beginning almost everybody in the PS, except Costa, supported him and tried to defend him but as time passed, and the proofs became more and more irrefutable, the support some PS members were giving him was, in part, damaging the PS in the polls, leading to their defeat in the 2015 elections.

My point is that Bibi could become a liability to the party, but how powerfull is the Likud "establishment" in order to force him out in a way to save their chances in the next elections?
A. The Likud electorate don't care much for rule-of-law and ethical issues here. The heartland doesn't understand much of the legal gibberish anyway and for them Bibi is being hunted down by the leftist elite. If elections were to come I suspect we'll only see a little dip for them.
B. The Likud establishment is crushed after years of his rule. all the pretenders try to keep as quiet as they can


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on February 22, 2018, 04:05:41 PM
So, uh, is this, like, actually happening? Is Bibi finally leaving the premiership once and for all? This is surreal.
It will be a while still but legally I can’t see him escaping indictment now let alone actual jail time. I would caution that he’s going to burn every bridge and create every constitutional crisis he can along the way. Likud voters don’t care much for this anyway so they’ll support him even if he’s charged with murder. they are really the lowest form of citizens, I have more fruitful discussions with JH voters
But wouldn't he become toxic to Likud's chances in the next election? I say this because here we had, and still have, a similar situation involving the former PS PM José Sócrates. At the beginning almost everybody in the PS, except Costa, supported him and tried to defend him but as time passed, and the proofs became more and more irrefutable, the support some PS members were giving him was, in part, damaging the PS in the polls, leading to their defeat in the 2015 elections.

My point is that Bibi could become a liability to the party, but how powerfull is the Likud "establishment" in order to force him out in a way to save their chances in the next elections?

So, uh, is this, like, actually happening? Is Bibi finally leaving the premiership once and for all? This is surreal.
It will be a while still but legally I can’t see him escaping indictment now let alone actual jail time. I would caution that he’s going to burn every bridge and create every constitutional crisis he can along the way. Likud voters don’t care much for this anyway so they’ll support him even if he’s charged with murder. they are really the lowest form of citizens, I have more fruitful discussions with JH voters
But wouldn't he become toxic to Likud's chances in the next election? I say this because here we had, and still have, a similar situation involving the former PS PM José Sócrates. At the beginning almost everybody in the PS, except Costa, supported him and tried to defend him but as time passed, and the proofs became more and more irrefutable, the support some PS members were giving him was, in part, damaging the PS in the polls, leading to their defeat in the 2015 elections.

My point is that Bibi could become a liability to the party, but how powerfull is the Likud "establishment" in order to force him out in a way to save their chances in the next elections?

Unfourtunately, Israel isn't Portugal. It appears like you have an electorate with some morals that cares about corruption and wants its leaders to be... well, not criminals who act like mob leaders. In Israel, sadly, the electorate has been incited to see evil leftists everywhere- the media, the judiciary branch, and now even the police. For them, it's all the evil leftist elite trying to hunt their King. This is ironic, considering that of all people, Jews should know to recognize scapegoating and hatemongering. Hopefully I'm wrong, but this is my feeling about our political system right now, and why I find American politics more interesting. There's no hope in the end of the tunnel, not at the moment.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Boobs on February 22, 2018, 05:00:33 PM
So, uh, is this, like, actually happening? Is Bibi finally leaving the premiership once and for all? This is surreal.
It will be a while still but legally I can’t see him escaping indictment now let alone actual jail time. I would caution that he’s going to burn every bridge and create every constitutional crisis he can along the way. Likud voters don’t care much for this anyway so they’ll support him even if he’s charged with murder. they are really the lowest form of citizens, I have more fruitful discussions with JH voters
But wouldn't he become toxic to Likud's chances in the next election? I say this because here we had, and still have, a similar situation involving the former PS PM José Sócrates. At the beginning almost everybody in the PS, except Costa, supported him and tried to defend him but as time passed, and the proofs became more and more irrefutable, the support some PS members were giving him was, in part, damaging the PS in the polls, leading to their defeat in the 2015 elections.

My point is that Bibi could become a liability to the party, but how powerfull is the Likud "establishment" in order to force him out in a way to save their chances in the next elections?

Unfourtunately, Israel isn't Portugal. It appears like you have an electorate with some morals that cares about corruption and wants its leaders to be... well, not criminals who act like mob leaders. In Israel, sadly, the electorate has been incited to see evil leftists everywhere- the media, the judiciary branch, and now even the police. For them, it's all the evil leftist elite trying to hunt their King. This is ironic, considering that of all people, Jews should know to recognize scapegoating and hatemongering. Hopefully I'm wrong, but this is my feeling about our political system right now, and why I find American politics more interesting. There's no hope in the end of the tunnel, not at the moment.

And considering that the strongest opposition is the incredibly spineless Lapid, I have no doubt that even in the snap election, Likud will be the largest party and probably will form a government.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on February 22, 2018, 05:27:32 PM
So, uh, is this, like, actually happening? Is Bibi finally leaving the premiership once and for all? This is surreal.
It will be a while still but legally I can’t see him escaping indictment now let alone actual jail time. I would caution that he’s going to burn every bridge and create every constitutional crisis he can along the way. Likud voters don’t care much for this anyway so they’ll support him even if he’s charged with murder. they are really the lowest form of citizens, I have more fruitful discussions with JH voters
But wouldn't he become toxic to Likud's chances in the next election? I say this because here we had, and still have, a similar situation involving the former PS PM José Sócrates. At the beginning almost everybody in the PS, except Costa, supported him and tried to defend him but as time passed, and the proofs became more and more irrefutable, the support some PS members were giving him was, in part, damaging the PS in the polls, leading to their defeat in the 2015 elections.

My point is that Bibi could become a liability to the party, but how powerfull is the Likud "establishment" in order to force him out in a way to save their chances in the next elections?

Unfourtunately, Israel isn't Portugal. It appears like you have an electorate with some morals that cares about corruption and wants its leaders to be... well, not criminals who act like mob leaders. In Israel, sadly, the electorate has been incited to see evil leftists everywhere- the media, the judiciary branch, and now even the police. For them, it's all the evil leftist elite trying to hunt their King. This is ironic, considering that of all people, Jews should know to recognize scapegoating and hatemongering. Hopefully I'm wrong, but this is my feeling about our political system right now, and why I find American politics more interesting. There's no hope in the end of the tunnel, not at the moment.

And considering that the strongest opposition is the incredibly spineless Lapid, I have no doubt that even in the snap election, Likud will be the largest party and probably will form a government.
Even if YA will be the largest party,Lapid still can't build coalition and Gabay turns out to be a complete joke,we are going to suffer from a Likud govermont for a very long time.
Thank you Shelly Yachimovich!


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on February 22, 2018, 05:58:51 PM
Gabay admitted that the falling of the Labour party on the polls is part of his fault,now he should step down and give to a real leader the chance to beat the corrupt Likud government.
My offer is Tzipi Livni-smart,talented,charismatic,experienced and beautiful women.
The leader of the ZU must be the leader of the Labour party. As to her appearance, I don't see how that's relevant, Shaked is rather attractive yet I would rather have Hazan as PM.

Well the news is all doom and gloom today with everyone asking when instead of if he should resign\be forced out. I think it will take a while but when it does it will be similar to the last 2 days, one crack in the dam and the coalition with his premiership will be dead and we'll have a snap election.
If Livni would decide to run separately from the Labour,she has my vote.
I am not ready to support right-winger even if he is from my party.
Snap election isn't going to happean! Kahlon made it pretty claer.

Livni isn't that much of a leftist either. I respect her, but she was a classical Likud member once, then she was a centrist, then she joined Netanyahu's government (and sat with Bennett) and now she's in an alliance with Labour. That's not a particularly leftist record.
Maybe your idol mister kibin**at Margalit sees that being a former Likud member/voter
as a bad thing,but i don't see any problem.
Livni committed to the peace since she left the Liked with Sharon,Olmert and others.
She joined to a Liked govermont for a peace deal.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on February 22, 2018, 06:05:34 PM
Gabay admitted that the falling of the Labour party on the polls is part of his fault,now he should step down and give to a real leader the chance to beat the corrupt Likud government.
My offer is Tzipi Livni-smart,talented,charismatic,experienced and beautiful women.
The leader of the ZU must be the leader of the Labour party. As to her appearance, I don't see how that's relevant, Shaked is rather attractive yet I would rather have Hazan as PM.

Well the news is all doom and gloom today with everyone asking when instead of if he should resign\be forced out. I think it will take a while but when it does it will be similar to the last 2 days, one crack in the dam and the coalition with his premiership will be dead and we'll have a snap election.
If Livni would decide to run separately from the Labour,she has my vote.
I am not ready to support right-winger even if he is from my party.
Snap election isn't going to happean! Kahlon made it pretty claer.

Livni isn't that much of a leftist either. I respect her, but she was a classical Likud member once, then she was a centrist, then she joined Netanyahu's government (and sat with Bennett) and now she's in an alliance with Labour. That's not a particularly leftist record.
Maybe your idol mister kibin**at Margalit sees that being a former Likud member/voter
as a bad thing,but i don't see any problem.
Livni committed to the peace since she left the Liked with Sharon,Olmert and others.
She joined to a Liked govermont for a peace deal.

Lol, I'm just saying that if you accuse Gabbay of being a right-winger, Livni isn't some leftist hero either. That's all.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on February 23, 2018, 11:46:54 AM
Gabay admitted that the falling of the Labour party on the polls is part of his fault,now he should step down and give to a real leader the chance to beat the corrupt Likud government.
My offer is Tzipi Livni-smart,talented,charismatic,experienced and beautiful women.
The leader of the ZU must be the leader of the Labour party. As to her appearance, I don't see how that's relevant, Shaked is rather attractive yet I would rather have Hazan as PM.

Well the news is all doom and gloom today with everyone asking when instead of if he should resign\be forced out. I think it will take a while but when it does it will be similar to the last 2 days, one crack in the dam and the coalition with his premiership will be dead and we'll have a snap election.
If Livni would decide to run separately from the Labour,she has my vote.
I am not ready to support right-winger even if he is from my party.
Snap election isn't going to happean! Kahlon made it pretty claer.

Livni isn't that much of a leftist either. I respect her, but she was a classical Likud member once, then she was a centrist, then she joined Netanyahu's government (and sat with Bennett) and now she's in an alliance with Labour. That's not a particularly leftist record.
Maybe your idol mister kibin**at Margalit sees that being a former Likud member/voter
as a bad thing,but i don't see any problem.
Livni committed to the peace since she left the Liked with Sharon,Olmert and others.
She joined to a Liked govermont for a peace deal.

Lol, I'm just saying that if you accuse Gabbay of being a right-winger, Livni isn't some leftist hero either. That's all.
Gabbay said that he won't evacuate settlemenst and Livni spoke against it.
She is leftier than Gabbay.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on February 25, 2018, 05:31:46 PM
Channel 10 published a tax massage between the judge and the prosecutor in case 4000 in which they coordinated arrests.
Netanyahu going to celebrate this and unfortunately he has a justified reason.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 26, 2018, 11:07:39 AM
Channel 10 published a tax massage between the judge and the prosecutor in case 4000 in which they coordinated arrests.
Netanyahu going to celebrate this and unfortunately he has a justified reason.
She's a magistrate court judge whose only role is examining prolonging of detentions, and he's not the prosecutor but an investigator with the stock market regulator (so but one aspect of the case). And the full manuscript shows it's bad but not that bad.
It also has little bearing on Netanyahu in person, he's going to be questioned on this case for the first time on Friday (a weasel trick by him as police wanted to question him earlier while most other suspects are in custody and can't coordinate versions but the King is too busy).

On Wednesday the Haredi party want to pass in first hearing a new Basic Law that says Yeshiva study is a supreme value above equality so the SC will not be able to strike down draft exemption bills. Lieberman and Kachlon oppose this move (so should Bibi, most Likud members would like it either).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on February 26, 2018, 11:15:05 AM
On Wednesday the Haredi party want to pass in first hearing a new Basic Law that says Yeshiva study is a supreme value above equality so the SC will not be able to strike down draft exemption bills. Lieberman and Kachlon oppose this move (so should Bibi, most Likud members would like it either).

Jeez, living in a Theocracy is going to be so fun.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on February 26, 2018, 11:52:08 AM
On Wednesday the Haredi party want to pass in first hearing a new Basic Law that says Yeshiva study is a supreme value above equality so the SC will not be able to strike down draft exemption bills.
This is ridiculous.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 26, 2018, 12:49:56 PM
On Wednesday the Haredi party want to pass in first hearing a new Basic Law that says Yeshiva study is a supreme value above equality so the SC will not be able to strike down draft exemption bills.
This is ridiculous.
So was the judicial decision to acknowledge a constitutional power with the legislature that only requires a majority of 61 votes and the bill to be labeled as a "Basic Law". Hans Kelsen must be going mental in his grave.

But it was only a matter of time before the Knesset would abuse the constitutional power, and it was all said in the 90's by Heshin. Now Barak (the justice) is saying other things and says the court can strike down constitutional amendments as unconstitutional according to "basic values" or the grundnorm, everyone warned him...


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Boobs on February 26, 2018, 01:14:01 PM
The theocracy is inevitable as the Haredi are the only ones actually having kids :(

It's too bad that the secular right would rather be in bed with the ultraorthodox wing for their own goals rather than work with the centre/centre-left in order to maintain secularism.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on February 26, 2018, 01:18:42 PM
The theocracy is inevitable as the Haredi are the only ones actually having kids :(

It's too bad that the secular right would rather be in bed with the ultraorthodox wing for their own goals rather than work with the centre/centre-left in order to maintain secularism.

Nah. There are a number of trends which I believe will counter that- Haredi youths are secularizing and leaving their sect in record numbers with the help of the information revolution, and the deaths of major Haredi leaders, which will lead to more and more fracturing and less and less authority for their heirs, will significantly weaken that community. In the end, the bubble will burst. There's a reason their leaders are panicking about Iphones and calling for them to be destroyed- they're shaking in fear that their zombies will start learning about the world and realize how outdated their sect is.

Just this week, the leader of an extremist Jerusalemite sect of the Litheanian Haredi community (which fractured after the death of their last leader into that one and a relatively more moderate one, whose leader also recently passed away) died. He constantly commanded mass protests against conscription, which completely jammed Jerusalem (and thus made him very hated by many, including myself), so he had control of his people. Now, he died without a clear heir afaik.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Boobs on February 26, 2018, 01:25:14 PM
The theocracy is inevitable as the Haredi are the only ones actually having kids :(

It's too bad that the secular right would rather be in bed with the ultraorthodox wing for their own goals rather than work with the centre/centre-left in order to maintain secularism.

Nah. There are a number of trends which I believe will counter that- Haredi youths are secularizing and leaving their sect in record numbers with the help of the information revolution, and the deaths of major Haredi leaders, which will lead to more and more fracturing and less and less authority for their heirs, will significantly weaken that community. In the end, the bubble will burst. There's a reason their leaders are panicking about Iphones and calling for them to be destroyed- they're shaking in fear that their zombies will start learning about the world and realize how outdated their sect is.

Well, that's hopeful. I might actually move back to Israel if that's the case.

It's kinda sad, though, to see the death of the left wing in Israel. Maybe after Likud's troubles with Netayahu and the possible Lapid ministry (which will undoubtedly be a failure seeing as he has no spine or ideology), maybe the Left can roar back to life. 


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on February 26, 2018, 03:38:18 PM
The theocracy is inevitable as the Haredi are the only ones actually having kids :(

It's too bad that the secular right would rather be in bed with the ultraorthodox wing for their own goals rather than work with the centre/centre-left in order to maintain secularism.

Nah. There are a number of trends which I believe will counter that- Haredi youths are secularizing and leaving their sect in record numbers with the help of the information revolution, and the deaths of major Haredi leaders, which will lead to more and more fracturing and less and less authority for their heirs, will significantly weaken that community. In the end, the bubble will burst. There's a reason their leaders are panicking about Iphones and calling for them to be destroyed- they're shaking in fear that their zombies will start learning about the world and realize how outdated their sect is.

Well, that's hopeful. I might actually move back to Israel if that's the case.

It's kinda sad, though, to see the death of the left wing in Israel. Maybe after Likud's troubles with Netayahu and the possible Lapid ministry (which will undoubtedly be a failure seeing as he has no spine or ideology), maybe the Left can roar back to life. 

Agreed, one can only hope. Right now, our political situation is very bleak- the people seem completely blind to Bibi's horridness and keep supporting him, and the left is miserable. There is, pretty much, no good option. But we'll see what happens in the future, I guess.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on February 27, 2018, 10:43:12 AM
Livni spoke an amazing speech in the knesset against baning breaking the silence in schools bill.
Gabbay few mounth ago spoke against "Braking the silence",he is no better than Netanyhau.
Livni should run separately from the Labour and take with her mk's like Yossi Yona ans Shapir.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on February 27, 2018, 10:57:45 AM
Livni spoke an amazing speech in the knesset against baning breaking the silence in schools bill.
Livni is truly the Israeli equivalent of U.S. liberal politicians who go full idpol while refusing to talk about class and wealth inequality, thereby playing into the hands of the right. "I want them to talk about racism every day. If the left is focused on race and identity, and we go with economic nationalism, we can crush the Democrats", Bannon said. Likud wants the left to talk about Breaking the Silence every day. This ensures the next right-wing victory in Israel.

I don't mind, but I guess you do.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DC Al Fine on February 27, 2018, 11:44:38 AM
The theocracy is inevitable as the Haredi are the only ones actually having kids :(

It's too bad that the secular right would rather be in bed with the ultraorthodox wing for their own goals rather than work with the centre/centre-left in order to maintain secularism.

Nah. There are a number of trends which I believe will counter that- Haredi youths are secularizing and leaving their sect in record numbers with the help of the information revolution,


That's very interesting if true. Do you have any links/stats to support your thesis?

I'm a tad skeptical of Haredi decline (as opposed to US Evangelical decline) since their birth rates are so high (6+ births per women vs 2ish for non-Haredi I think). If the Haredi share of the population shrunk, that would imply a terrible retention rate, like sub 50%. That seems too low.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DC Al Fine on February 27, 2018, 11:57:23 AM
The theocracy is inevitable as the Haredi are the only ones actually having kids :(

It's too bad that the secular right would rather be in bed with the ultraorthodox wing for their own goals rather than work with the centre/centre-left in order to maintain secularism.

Is the secular right actually that secular.? I thought a lot of Likud support came from non-ultraorthodox, but still religious Jews. Am I mistaken?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Vosem on February 27, 2018, 12:25:26 PM
The theocracy is inevitable as the Haredi are the only ones actually having kids :(

It's too bad that the secular right would rather be in bed with the ultraorthodox wing for their own goals rather than work with the centre/centre-left in order to maintain secularism.

Nah. There are a number of trends which I believe will counter that- Haredi youths are secularizing and leaving their sect in record numbers with the help of the information revolution,


That's very interesting if true. Do you have any links/stats to support your thesis?

I'm a tad skeptical of Haredi decline (as opposed to US Evangelical decline) since their birth rates are so high (6+ births per women vs 2ish for non-Haredi I think). If the Haredi share of the population shrunk, that would imply a terrible retention rate, like sub 50%. That seems too low.

http://www.pewforum.org/2016/03/08/israels-religiously-divided-society/

Lots and lots of statistics here which both back up and contradict your points. The Haredi do have the highest birth rate in Israeli Jewish society (the survey doesn't break down 7+, but if we take the average 7+ family as having 8 children and the other categories at midpoints we can come up with averages), at 5.2 children for the average person, but this seems to be declining rather precipitously (apparently it was over 10 when the State of Israel was established), and even secular Israelis ("Hilonim") average 3.0 children. (Groups between Haredim and Hilonim obviously have birthrates between those numbers). Younger Israeli society is more religious than older Israeli society (8% of Israelis over 50 are Haredi, compared with 12% of Israelis under 30; 52% of Israelis over 50 are Hilonim compared with just 44% of Israelis under 30), but the pace of change is happening pretty slowly. Categories between Haredim and Hilonim are gaining adherents rapidly, but there are some indicators that older members of these categories are more religious than younger members; the trend of fewer people identifying as secular may not be as strong as the trend of fewer people actually being secular.

On the religious practice questions, most (such as lighting candles for the Sabbath) see younger Israelis as significantly more observant than older Israelis, especially on questions of ritual (more than half of self-identified Hilonim light Sabbath candles "sometimes"), but technology-related ones see a less pronounced trend, or in one case (travel on the Sabbath) an actual reversal. On the public policy questions, the difference tends to be about 4 points (26% of over-50s support halakha overriding law, and 30% of under-50s; 15% of over-50s support gender segregation on public transportation, and 19% of under-50s), with the exception being issues related to the Haredi community; notably, Israelis under 50 are more supportive of drafting Haredim than Israelis over 50 are. A more religious society is not necessarily one that is friendlier to the Haredim.

Still, the religious character of modern Israeli Jewish society shouldn't be overemphasized. 50% of Israeli Jews describe their frequency of prayer as "never" (which strongly implies there are people who light Sabbath candles sometimes but never pray, which strikes me as really odd). 59% of Israeli Jews read religious texts "never".

In terms of switching, hardly any Haredim or Hilonim leave their religious subgroup (retention rates are 94% and 90%). However, groups between them have much lower retention rates (as low as 54% for Datiim) and switching is overwhelmingly to the next less observant subgroup. Few people become more observant, though Hilonim are a sufficiently large category (49% of all Jews) that the numbers are larger than they look: 8% of Jews have switched to a more observant subgroup, and 13% have switched to a less observant one. There may be a long-term polarization going on: Haredim and Hilonim gain more than they lose, while groups between them lose more than they gain. (...However, the generational figures suggest all groups are slowly gaining at the expense of Hilonim. Differences in birthrates matter, and my method of calculating them might de-emphasize differences). Answers to some of the other questions imply that "centrist" groups are also (very, very) slowly becoming more secular, or perhaps just more hostile to Haredim (in addition to the Haredi draft question, in spite of younger Israelis being much more religious in terms of self-identification and ritual, there's very little difference between older and younger Israelis on the question of allowing women to pray at the Western Wall, which suggests modern society's gender norms are penetrating the "centrist" groups between Haredim and Hilonim).

Long story short: Haredim are increasing as a percentage of Israeli society, but they are starting from a low base, not growing all that much faster than the rest of society, and the speed of their gains is slowing. Society taken as an absolute whole is therefore absolutely becoming more religious. However, whether Israeli society minus Haredim (which, given that Haredi tend to live in overwhelmingly Haredi communities and have few friends outside those communities, is absolutely a relevant bloc) is becoming more religious or more secular is kind of unclear, and to some extent the answer seems to be both: the society is becoming less secular, but also incorporating more secular elements into that religiosity, which I'm aware is kind of a non-answer or dodge to the question. A different way to put this might be that Haredi are growing, but there are some signs of an emerging Haredi vs. not-Haredi polarization, or a slow convergence between not-Haredi groups. Decide for yourself.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on February 28, 2018, 05:26:03 AM
Zehava Galon just dropped out of the Meretz leadership race.
I guess I'm endorsing Zandberg, but the chances I'm voting for Meretz in the election have just grown significantly lower.

@Vosem: This is an interesting post. Indeed, a more religious society doesn't mean one more friendly to the Haredim- we saw, for example, in the last mayoral race in the City of Beit Shemesh, that it was basically a proxy war between the Haredi population that invaded the city and claimed it as its own (represented by the incumbent, Mr. "There Are No Gays In Beit Shemesh") and a kippa-wearing candidate supported by both secular and religious voters who aren't Haredim- aka Datiim). The incumbent won, but in any case, we saw all stripes of Israeli society uniting against the Haredim. On the question of the draft, it makes sense that you'll see more support than, say, for public transportation in Shabbat- after all, the religious group ("religious zionism") are frevently pro-IDF. My points weren't backed by any statistics- I guess I'm just an optimist, but I believe that, with their powerful leaders dying off, the Haredi sect ultimately cannot survive in the modern world, kinda like primitive tribes in Brazil. There's simply no way to keep such a huge population enslaved to strict rules and restrictions on technology, sexuality and, for about a half of this population (women), their very independence as human beings, without that bubble bursting in the end.

EDIT: Looks like Ilan Gilon dropped out too?! All hail Queen Zandberg, I guess, but I have no idea what's happening and what deal they wrought.

EDIT2: Gilon dropped out because of health reasons. His voice seemed a bit slurred in the announcement video, but he didn't say the specific reason. I guess he felt free to drop out after he saw Zehava did.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 28, 2018, 06:18:18 AM
Breaking: it’s a coronation but the race is not over, Buskila is trying to pull the Galon supporters. I’m also suspicious when both this bitter rivals who can stand each others presence drop out within 20 minutes


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on February 28, 2018, 06:21:38 AM
Breaking: it’s a coronation but the race is not over, Buskila is trying to pull the Galon supporters. I’m also suspicious when both this bitter rivals who can stand each others presence drop out within 20 minutes

Any chance someone new enters or nah?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MaxQue on February 28, 2018, 09:26:27 AM
The theocracy is inevitable as the Haredi are the only ones actually having kids :(

It's too bad that the secular right would rather be in bed with the ultraorthodox wing for their own goals rather than work with the centre/centre-left in order to maintain secularism.

Is the secular right actually that secular.? I thought a lot of Likud support came from non-ultraorthodox, but still religious Jews. Am I mistaken?

Well, they are secular in the sense than they don't want to grant more privileges to the ultraorthodox, privileges than other religious Jews don't have.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on February 28, 2018, 10:52:23 AM
Breaking: it’s a coronation but the race is not over, Buskila is trying to pull the Galon supporters. I’m also suspicious when both this bitter rivals who can stand each others presence drop out within 20 minutes

Any chance someone new enters or nah?
Deadline passed. I heard Galon is thinking of supporting Buskila


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Vosem on February 28, 2018, 05:18:21 PM
Zehava Galon just dropped out of the Meretz leadership race.
I guess I'm endorsing Zandberg, but the chances I'm voting for Meretz in the election have just grown significantly lower.

@Vosem: This is an interesting post. Indeed, a more religious society doesn't mean one more friendly to the Haredim- we saw, for example, in the last mayoral race in the City of Beit Shemesh, that it was basically a proxy war between the Haredi population that invaded the city and claimed it as its own (represented by the incumbent, Mr. "There Are No Gays In Beit Shemesh") and a kippa-wearing candidate supported by both secular and religious voters who aren't Haredim- aka Datiim). The incumbent won, but in any case, we saw all stripes of Israeli society uniting against the Haredim. On the question of the draft, it makes sense that you'll see more support than, say, for public transportation in Shabbat- after all, the religious group ("religious zionism") are frevently pro-IDF. My points weren't backed by any statistics- I guess I'm just an optimist, but I believe that, with their powerful leaders dying off, the Haredi sect ultimately cannot survive in the modern world, kinda like primitive tribes in Brazil. There's simply no way to keep such a huge population enslaved to strict rules and restrictions on technology, sexuality and, for about a half of this population (women), their very independence as human beings, without that bubble bursting in the end.

EDIT: Looks like Ilan Gilon dropped out too?! All hail Queen Zandberg, I guess, but I have no idea what's happening and what deal they wrought.

EDIT2: Gilon dropped out because of health reasons. His voice seemed a bit slurred in the announcement video, but he didn't say the specific reason. I guess he felt free to drop out after he saw Zehava did.

A really interesting thing I found in the Pew data, which Pew didn't really talk about, was how on pretty much every religious issue the difference between old and young is smaller than the difference between old and young on self-identification. Israelis under 30 are 8% less Hiloni than Israelis over 50, but on no specific public policy issue are they more than 4% more religious (which tracks with Haredi going from 8% to 12% of society), and there are some where there's no difference or younger Israelis even take the less religious position (attitudes towards Haredim are the only ones that show the reverse pattern, but there's basically no generational difference on attitudes towards modern technology and women's rights). So it seems pretty reasonable to conclude that groups like Datiim/Masortim are slowly getting less observant (particularly on things like use of modern technology and women's rights) even as they become a larger part of society at the expense of Hilonim.

Which backs up my basic point that Jewish rituals, or affirmations of Judaism, are becoming more universal (there was something in there about younger self-identified Hilonim being more likely to light Shabbat candles than older Hilonim, for instance) without society's values really changing, which suggests that the non-Haredi parts of Israeli society are all slowly converging with each other.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DC Al Fine on February 28, 2018, 08:39:45 PM
The original post on Israeli was excellent Vosem. We need more stuff like that on the forum.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on February 28, 2018, 10:25:04 PM
Zehava Galon just dropped out of the Meretz leadership race.
I guess I'm endorsing Zandberg, but the chances I'm voting for Meretz in the election have just grown significantly lower.

@Vosem: This is an interesting post. Indeed, a more religious society doesn't mean one more friendly to the Haredim- we saw, for example, in the last mayoral race in the City of Beit Shemesh, that it was basically a proxy war between the Haredi population that invaded the city and claimed it as its own (represented by the incumbent, Mr. "There Are No Gays In Beit Shemesh") and a kippa-wearing candidate supported by both secular and religious voters who aren't Haredim- aka Datiim). The incumbent won, but in any case, we saw all stripes of Israeli society uniting against the Haredim. On the question of the draft, it makes sense that you'll see more support than, say, for public transportation in Shabbat- after all, the religious group ("religious zionism") are frevently pro-IDF. My points weren't backed by any statistics- I guess I'm just an optimist, but I believe that, with their powerful leaders dying off, the Haredi sect ultimately cannot survive in the modern world, kinda like primitive tribes in Brazil. There's simply no way to keep such a huge population enslaved to strict rules and restrictions on technology, sexuality and, for about a half of this population (women), their very independence as human beings, without that bubble bursting in the end.

EDIT: Looks like Ilan Gilon dropped out too?! All hail Queen Zandberg, I guess, but I have no idea what's happening and what deal they wrought.

EDIT2: Gilon dropped out because of health reasons. His voice seemed a bit slurred in the announcement video, but he didn't say the specific reason. I guess he felt free to drop out after he saw Zehava did.

A really interesting thing I found in the Pew data, which Pew didn't really talk about, was how on pretty much every religious issue the difference between old and young is smaller than the difference between old and young on self-identification. Israelis under 30 are 8% less Hiloni than Israelis over 50, but on no specific public policy issue are they more than 4% more religious (which tracks with Haredi going from 8% to 12% of society), and there are some where there's no difference or younger Israelis even take the less religious position (attitudes towards Haredim are the only ones that show the reverse pattern, but there's basically no generational difference on attitudes towards modern technology and women's rights). So it seems pretty reasonable to conclude that groups like Datiim/Masortim are slowly getting less observant (particularly on things like use of modern technology and women's rights) even as they become a larger part of society at the expense of Hilonim.

Which backs up my basic point that Jewish rituals, or affirmations of Judaism, are becoming more universal (there was something in there about younger self-identified Hilonim being more likely to light Shabbat candles than older Hilonim, for instance) without society's values really changing, which suggests that the non-Haredi parts of Israeli society are all slowly converging with each other.

Similar trends in the US where American youth are less likely to identify as atheist but more atheistic than any generation in the past. This is mostly due to a stigma that atheism is associated with anti-Muslim bigotry. I don't know if it's similar in Israel. Maybe atheism is associated with anti-Ultra Orthodox bigotry? Are Israeli youth more pro or anti-Ultra Orthodox?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: warandwar on March 01, 2018, 03:13:05 AM
I think it's more stigma that atheism is associated with nerds


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on March 01, 2018, 05:03:01 AM
Go Buskila!


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 01, 2018, 05:13:33 AM
Allegedly Galon quit after she saw internal polling predicting that shwill crush. On one she was fourth with 11% after Zandberg 39% Gilon 16% and Buskila with 13%. On the other Zandberg was first with 33% Gilon second with 16% and Galon third with 11%. I hear a lot of Zehava activists are moving to Buskila, but anyhow Zandberg will walk this.

As to Vosem's analysis, I think there's too much white noise in the data and you're missing some major trends that you need to witness to understand. The first, is the many national-religious youth are becoming less religious, or as they call it "religious light". but on the other hand a lot young Sephardi (especially from the periphery) are becoming more religious despite being label only as Masorti (observants).
It's two major trends that simply cancel each other out in the data


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on March 04, 2018, 04:00:57 AM
So the Haredi parties "suddenly" woke up and are threatening with an election sometime this year if some outrageous basic law that says, essentially, "studying Torah is a more important value than equality" isn't passed. The target is to prevent the Court from overturning the Haredi anti-conscription laws on the basis of the basic value of equality. But the timing is very, very suspicious. It's very clear that this was triggered by Bibi, the most blatantly corrupt and cynical man to ever set foot in the Knesset, trying to trigger a snap election and get himself a mandate.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on March 08, 2018, 09:32:42 AM
New Walla poll.
Likud-30
YA-24
JH-11
JL-10
JU-10(!)
Meretz-8
UTJ-8
Kulanu-7
YB-7
Shas-4

I'm proud to say that i voted for Amir Peretz for Labour leadership.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on March 08, 2018, 09:55:52 AM
Dat Meretz tho. Also, these numbers are of course depressing etc. The only way to get rid of the wannabe despot is throwing him to jail, it seems, because our people are mind-controlled fanatics who don't care about corruption or basic democratic values.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on March 08, 2018, 10:04:43 AM
Dat Meretz tho. Also, these numbers are of course depressing etc. The only way to get rid of the wannabe despot is throwing him to jail, it seems, because our people are mind-controlled fanatics who don't care about corruption or basic democratic values.
Also because that the alternatives are weak,Amir Peretz would done much better in the polls.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on March 08, 2018, 10:30:15 AM
Dat Meretz tho. Also, these numbers are of course depressing etc. The only way to get rid of the wannabe despot is throwing him to jail, it seems, because our people are mind-controlled fanatics who don't care about corruption or basic democratic values.
Also because that the alternatives are weak,Amir Peretz would done much better in the polls.

I agree that the alternatives are weak, but I think that Peretz would've just been a stable leader rather than a gaffe-prone mess like Herzog or Gabbay (which, tbh, we already should've anticipated after how Margalit humiliated him), and would've constantly polled in the mid-to-high teens. The fact that Liked is at 30 mandates while the depths and darkness of the Netanyahu corruption are being revealed shows how hopeless our electorate is.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: GM Team Member and Senator WB on March 08, 2018, 11:06:58 AM
man that poll reflects poorly on Israel because of what you previously mentioned.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on March 08, 2018, 11:31:52 AM
Dat Meretz tho. Also, these numbers are of course depressing etc. The only way to get rid of the wannabe despot is throwing him to jail, it seems, because our people are mind-controlled fanatics who don't care about corruption or basic democratic values.
Also because that the alternatives are weak,Amir Peretz would done much better in the polls.

I agree that the alternatives are weak, but I think that Peretz would've just been a stable leader rather than a gaffe-prone mess like Herzog or Gabbay (which, tbh, we already should've anticipated after how Margalit humiliated him), and would've constantly polled in the mid-to-high teens. The fact that Liked is at 30 mandates while the depths and darkness of the Netanyahu corruption are being revealed shows how hopeless our electorate is.
You voted fot Gabbay in the second round,no?
I remeber the part of the debate that you talking about,it's probably hurted Margalit more than it hurted Gabbay.
The kibini**t video,his aggressive behavior cost him the leadership.
If he want to return to politicts he should hire other communications consultants.
It is not only Netanyahu's expected victory in the next elections that depresses me,i really don't know if the Labour Party in Israel has a future.
Who will replace Gabbay after the next elections?
Peretz probably won't run again,Bar Lev has Charisma of a fish,Shapir too young.
Gantz? we saw how the last four Chiefs of Staff "succeeded" in politics.
I thought about Svetlova but i don't think that she will leave Livni.
What a depression.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on March 08, 2018, 11:35:28 AM
Dat Meretz tho. Also, these numbers are of course depressing etc. The only way to get rid of the wannabe despot is throwing him to jail, it seems, because our people are mind-controlled fanatics who don't care about corruption or basic democratic values.
Also because that the alternatives are weak,Amir Peretz would done much better in the polls.

I agree that the alternatives are weak, but I think that Peretz would've just been a stable leader rather than a gaffe-prone mess like Herzog or Gabbay (which, tbh, we already should've anticipated after how Margalit humiliated him), and would've constantly polled in the mid-to-high teens. The fact that Liked is at 30 mandates while the depths and darkness of the Netanyahu corruption are being revealed shows how hopeless our electorate is.
You voted fot Gabbay in the second round,no?
I remeber the part of the debate that you talking about,it's probably hurted Margalit more than it hurted Gabbay.
The kibini**t video,his aggressive behavior cost him the leadership.
If he want to return to politicts he should hire other communications consultants.
It is not only Netanyahu's expected victory in the next elections that depresses me,i really don't know if the Labour Party in israel has a future.
Who will replace Gabbay after the next elections?
Peretz probably won't run again,Bar Lev has Charisma of a fish,Shapir too young.
Gantz? we saw how the last four Chiefs of Staff "succeeded" in politics.
I thought about Svetlova but i don't think that she will leave Livni.
What a depression.

I voted for Gabbay in the second round, yes, but I regret it. And maybe Margalit's attack against Gabbay did hurt him- it shouldn't have, because it caught Gabbay lying. And yes, I agree that the kibinimat videos were stupid. As for Labour... I agree that the future seems bleak, but they're still the party with the best slate of candidates overall, in my opinion. Maybe Shaffir is an option, I don't know. We'll see.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on March 08, 2018, 12:02:19 PM
Orly Levy establishing a new party.
Yaalon also establishing a new party and announced that 50% of the party list going to be females  (LOL, he acually thinks that he would pass the 3.25 percent block )


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on March 08, 2018, 07:21:03 PM
Dat Meretz tho. Also, these numbers are of course depressing etc. The only way to get rid of the wannabe despot is throwing him to jail, it seems, because our people are mind-controlled fanatics who don't care about corruption or basic democratic values.
Also because that the alternatives are weak,Amir Peretz would done much better in the polls.

I agree that the alternatives are weak, but I think that Peretz would've just been a stable leader rather than a gaffe-prone mess like Herzog or Gabbay (which, tbh, we already should've anticipated after how Margalit humiliated him), and would've constantly polled in the mid-to-high teens. The fact that Liked is at 30 mandates while the depths and darkness of the Netanyahu corruption are being revealed shows how hopeless our electorate is.
You voted fot Gabbay in the second round,no?
I remeber the part of the debate that you talking about,it's probably hurted Margalit more than it hurted Gabbay.
The kibini**t video,his aggressive behavior cost him the leadership.
If he want to return to politicts he should hire other communications consultants.
It is not only Netanyahu's expected victory in the next elections that depresses me,i really don't know if the Labour Party in israel has a future.
Who will replace Gabbay after the next elections?
Peretz probably won't run again,Bar Lev has Charisma of a fish,Shapir too young.
Gantz? we saw how the last four Chiefs of Staff "succeeded" in politics.
I thought about Svetlova but i don't think that she will leave Livni.
What a depression.

I voted for Gabbay in the second round, yes, but I regret it. And maybe Margalit's attack against Gabbay did hurt him- it shouldn't have, because it caught Gabbay lying. And yes, I agree that the kibinimat videos were stupid. As for Labour... I agree that the future seems bleak, but they're still the party with the best slate of candidates overall, in my opinion. Maybe Shaffir is an option, I don't know. We'll see.

Shaffir (like a lot of Labor youth) is a crypto-one stater. I don't think she would help the party in the polls but even if she did though, a Prime Minister Shaffir would be the last Prime Minister of Israel.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on March 08, 2018, 07:25:39 PM
Dat Meretz tho. Also, these numbers are of course depressing etc. The only way to get rid of the wannabe despot is throwing him to jail, it seems, because our people are mind-controlled fanatics who don't care about corruption or basic democratic values.
Also because that the alternatives are weak,Amir Peretz would done much better in the polls.

I agree that the alternatives are weak, but I think that Peretz would've just been a stable leader rather than a gaffe-prone mess like Herzog or Gabbay (which, tbh, we already should've anticipated after how Margalit humiliated him), and would've constantly polled in the mid-to-high teens. The fact that Liked is at 30 mandates while the depths and darkness of the Netanyahu corruption are being revealed shows how hopeless our electorate is.
You voted fot Gabbay in the second round,no?
I remeber the part of the debate that you talking about,it's probably hurted Margalit more than it hurted Gabbay.
The kibini**t video,his aggressive behavior cost him the leadership.
If he want to return to politicts he should hire other communications consultants.
It is not only Netanyahu's expected victory in the next elections that depresses me,i really don't know if the Labour Party in israel has a future.
Who will replace Gabbay after the next elections?
Peretz probably won't run again,Bar Lev has Charisma of a fish,Shapir too young.
Gantz? we saw how the last four Chiefs of Staff "succeeded" in politics.
I thought about Svetlova but i don't think that she will leave Livni.
What a depression.

I voted for Gabbay in the second round, yes, but I regret it. And maybe Margalit's attack against Gabbay did hurt him- it shouldn't have, because it caught Gabbay lying. And yes, I agree that the kibinimat videos were stupid. As for Labour... I agree that the future seems bleak, but they're still the party with the best slate of candidates overall, in my opinion. Maybe Shaffir is an option, I don't know. We'll see.

Shaffir (like a lot of Labor youth) is a crypto-one stater. I don't think she would help the party in the polls but even if she did though, a Prime Minister Shaffir would be the last Prime Minister of Israel.

()


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on March 08, 2018, 07:53:17 PM
This isn't like some conservative in 1984 saying "If Mondale wins, the will be a Red Flag over the White House!" No, that's obviously ridiculous. The United States is a stable country that's existed for 200 years.

Israel, however, has existed for less than a century, its sovereignty is disputed, it has a quasi-indigenous population which wish it did not exist.

If Israel elects anyone to the left of Ariel Sharon, anyone who wants to compromise with global opinion, Israel will cease to exist, because the global opinion is that Israel shouldn't exist.

That's why Israeli votes don't give a damn about Netanyahu being corrupt. They would rather have a corrupt Prime Minister than have their country cease to exist.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: ○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└ on March 09, 2018, 01:00:14 AM
If Israel elects anyone to the left of Ariel Sharon, anyone who wants to compromise with global opinion, Israel will cease to exist, because the global opinion is that Israel shouldn't exist.
 cease to exist.

I would assume that the 159 countries that have diplomatic relations with Israel support its right to exist. There are only 32 without diplomatic relations. And while most of those have issues with Israel, Bhutan is kind of random about whom they have diplomatic relations with, so I don't think it means anything in their case.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 09, 2018, 06:09:35 AM
Dat Meretz tho. Also, these numbers are of course depressing etc. The only way to get rid of the wannabe despot is throwing him to jail, it seems, because our people are mind-controlled fanatics who don't care about corruption or basic democratic values.
Also because that the alternatives are weak,Amir Peretz would done much better in the polls.

I agree that the alternatives are weak, but I think that Peretz would've just been a stable leader rather than a gaffe-prone mess like Herzog or Gabbay (which, tbh, we already should've anticipated after how Margalit humiliated him), and would've constantly polled in the mid-to-high teens. The fact that Liked is at 30 mandates while the depths and darkness of the Netanyahu corruption are being revealed shows how hopeless our electorate is.
You voted fot Gabbay in the second round,no?
I remeber the part of the debate that you talking about,it's probably hurted Margalit more than it hurted Gabbay.
The kibini**t video,his aggressive behavior cost him the leadership.
If he want to return to politicts he should hire other communications consultants.
It is not only Netanyahu's expected victory in the next elections that depresses me,i really don't know if the Labour Party in israel has a future.
Who will replace Gabbay after the next elections?
Peretz probably won't run again,Bar Lev has Charisma of a fish,Shapir too young.
Gantz? we saw how the last four Chiefs of Staff "succeeded" in politics.
I thought about Svetlova but i don't think that she will leave Livni.
What a depression.

I voted for Gabbay in the second round, yes, but I regret it. And maybe Margalit's attack against Gabbay did hurt him- it shouldn't have, because it caught Gabbay lying. And yes, I agree that the kibinimat videos were stupid. As for Labour... I agree that the future seems bleak, but they're still the party with the best slate of candidates overall, in my opinion. Maybe Shaffir is an option, I don't know. We'll see.

Shaffir (like a lot of Labor youth) is a crypto-one stater. I don't think she would help the party in the polls but even if she did though, a Prime Minister Shaffir would be the last Prime Minister of Israel.
Very highly doubt anything said here, Shaffir is not a one-stater (as if that's a slur) and the Labour Youth are probably the only ones still believing in the 2 state solution as somehow viable (along with other weird beliefs like socialist economics).

anyhow it will be interesting to see if any of the Labour left will maybe run in the Meretz primaries (we're getting a very SPD-Green situation going on here). Michaeli is close to Gabbay so I doubt it, Yonah might do it, Ba'alol is retiring at the end of the term, and the Reds (Biran, Shelly, Peretz) would not go to be second or without a Gilon leadership.
Shaffir could do it as she's popular with the membership but really hated among her colleagues, but I think in that case Zandberg will put all her weight to push her out. As Aloni once said when Ramon joined in with Sarid and Meretz in the mid 90's to win Workers Federation election, "I already have one who thinks he's god's secondhand (Sarid, now Gilon), I don't need another one who thinks god's his secondhand (Ramon, and now Shaffir)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on March 10, 2018, 03:59:39 AM
Just an interesting tidbit that shows why I'm voting based on social issues...
Apparently, our Ministry of Education (headed by leader of the Jewish Home religious party) has allowed schools to take additional money from parents for anything more than the most basic bagrut certificate (our high school graduation exams). That means, advanced math and English and a second choice subject that pretty much every student takes. So basically, discouraging our nation's youth from succeeding, an extremely dumb move
Why did it happen? Is capitalism at fault? Corporations? Why, no, it's once again the religious interest groups. A group of parents discovered that the money charged in some fee or another was being used not just for its purpose, but to fund salaries and other things in the religious education system. The Ministry confirmed it as illegal, the directors of these religious schools that are connected to the Jewish Home demanded the Minister find some way to let them keep charging this money, and viola. Just another way the greed and outrageous superior rights religious interest groups and organizations have over secular ones, forgive me for language, f***ed everyone else.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 10, 2018, 10:41:32 AM
Just an interesting tidbit that shows why I'm voting based on social issues...
Apparently, our Ministry of Education (headed by leader of the Jewish Home religious party) has allowed schools to take additional money from parents for anything more than the most basic bagrut certificate (our high school graduation exams). That means, advanced math and English and a second choice subject that pretty much every student takes. So basically, discouraging our nation's youth from succeeding, an extremely dumb move
Why did it happen? Is capitalism at fault? Corporations? Why, no, it's once again the religious interest groups. A group of parents discovered that the money charged in some fee or another was being used not just for its purpose, but to fund salaries and other things in the religious education system. The Ministry confirmed it as illegal, the directors of these religious schools that are connected to the Jewish Home demanded the Minister find some way to let them keep charging this money, and viola. Just another way the greed and outrageous superior rights religious interest groups and organizations have over secular ones, forgive me for language, f***ed everyone else.
Tbh if my memory serves me right parents used to pay for Bagruit during the Mapai-Labour era due to the law of mandatory education extending until the 9th grade then (it was like that with my old sister). Actually I think it was the Begin government that changed it


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on March 10, 2018, 11:00:16 AM
Just an interesting tidbit that shows why I'm voting based on social issues...
Apparently, our Ministry of Education (headed by leader of the Jewish Home religious party) has allowed schools to take additional money from parents for anything more than the most basic bagrut certificate (our high school graduation exams). That means, advanced math and English and a second choice subject that pretty much every student takes. So basically, discouraging our nation's youth from succeeding, an extremely dumb move
Why did it happen? Is capitalism at fault? Corporations? Why, no, it's once again the religious interest groups. A group of parents discovered that the money charged in some fee or another was being used not just for its purpose, but to fund salaries and other things in the religious education system. The Ministry confirmed it as illegal, the directors of these religious schools that are connected to the Jewish Home demanded the Minister find some way to let them keep charging this money, and viola. Just another way the greed and outrageous superior rights religious interest groups and organizations have over secular ones, forgive me for language, f***ed everyone else.
Tbh if my memory serves me right parents used to pay for Bagruit during the Mapai-Labour era due to the law of mandatory education extending until the 9th grade then (it was like that with my old sister). Actually I think it was the Begin government that changed it
It's a very welcome change, then. I mostly brought this story to show why I'm voting mostly based on social issues- religious interest and pressure groups, whether they're Haredi or not, are just terrible.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on March 10, 2018, 03:52:33 PM
Zehava Galon just dropped out of the Meretz leadership race.
I guess I'm endorsing Zandberg, but the chances I'm voting for Meretz in the election have just grown significantly lower.

@Vosem: This is an interesting post. Indeed, a more religious society doesn't mean one more friendly to the Haredim- we saw, for example, in the last mayoral race in the City of Beit Shemesh, that it was basically a proxy war between the Haredi population that invaded the city and claimed it as its own (represented by the incumbent, Mr. "There Are No Gays In Beit Shemesh") and a kippa-wearing candidate supported by both secular and religious voters who aren't Haredim- aka Datiim). The incumbent won, but in any case, we saw all stripes of Israeli society uniting against the Haredim. On the question of the draft, it makes sense that you'll see more support than, say, for public transportation in Shabbat- after all, the religious group ("religious zionism") are frevently pro-IDF. My points weren't backed by any statistics- I guess I'm just an optimist, but I believe that, with their powerful leaders dying off, the Haredi sect ultimately cannot survive in the modern world, kinda like primitive tribes in Brazil. There's simply no way to keep such a huge population enslaved to strict rules and restrictions on technology, sexuality and, for about a half of this population (women), their very independence as human beings, without that bubble bursting in the end.

EDIT: Looks like Ilan Gilon dropped out too?! All hail Queen Zandberg, I guess, but I have no idea what's happening and what deal they wrought.

EDIT2: Gilon dropped out because of health reasons. His voice seemed a bit slurred in the announcement video, but he didn't say the specific reason. I guess he felt free to drop out after he saw Zehava did.

A really interesting thing I found in the Pew data, which Pew didn't really talk about, was how on pretty much every religious issue the difference between old and young is smaller than the difference between old and young on self-identification. Israelis under 30 are 8% less Hiloni than Israelis over 50, but on no specific public policy issue are they more than 4% more religious (which tracks with Haredi going from 8% to 12% of society), and there are some where there's no difference or younger Israelis even take the less religious position (attitudes towards Haredim are the only ones that show the reverse pattern, but there's basically no generational difference on attitudes towards modern technology and women's rights). So it seems pretty reasonable to conclude that groups like Datiim/Masortim are slowly getting less observant (particularly on things like use of modern technology and women's rights) even as they become a larger part of society at the expense of Hilonim.

Which backs up my basic point that Jewish rituals, or affirmations of Judaism, are becoming more universal (there was something in there about younger self-identified Hilonim being more likely to light Shabbat candles than older Hilonim, for instance) without society's values really changing, which suggests that the non-Haredi parts of Israeli society are all slowly converging with each other.

Similar trends in the US where American youth are less likely to identify as atheist but more atheistic than any generation in the past. This is mostly due to a stigma that atheism is associated with anti-Muslim bigotry.

I'm sorry, I don't want to derail the thread, but I highly doubt this.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 11, 2018, 11:42:35 AM
Netanyahu getting indicted will in no way cause middle Israel to suddenly turn to the left. The left can't "win"/form a government as long as they don't have a credible argument regarding the peace process and the security situation, with which they can win over middle Israel. Most people want a 2SS (the "Lieberman plan" with landswaps is probably the best and most popular one) but don't trust the Palestinian Authority not to turn the West Bank into a second Gaza and therefore prefer the status-quo, which Likud offers, over (perceived) uncertainty. Just like left-wingers are the best ones to implement budget cuts, right-wingers are the best ones to broker a peace deal. But as one-staters become more dominant on the right, it is doubtful whether a 2SS will ever happen. Only a dramatic change in the status-quo can alter the current trajectory.

What Labour needs to do is to show middle Israel that they are committed to Zionism, which means purging "post-Zionist" (BtS, Peace Now, the whole NGO world) elements from Labour. Let them go to Meretz. Make sure the "on whose side are you?" question is not on people's minds anymore. Meanwhile, credibly advocate for lasting peace and security in a 2SS from a Zionist perspective, provide an unashamedly Social Democratic alternative to Likud's agenda of economic inequality and oligarchy, and be committed to upholding freedom of and from religion. Become a party that credibly aims to unite Jewish Israelis from different backgrounds instead of ignoring all Jews outside the Tel Aviv metro.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on March 11, 2018, 11:54:34 AM
So what is the Israeli right's plan - if they do end up annexing the West Bank - about the many Arab residents? Give them full citizenship and risk a plurality (majority?) Arab electorate?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 11, 2018, 01:23:58 PM
So what is the Israeli right's plan - if they do end up annexing the West Bank - about the many Arab residents? Give them full citizenship and risk a plurality (majority?) Arab electorate?
Likud don't have a clear plan (except that keeping the status-quo in place is also a choice, though not an explicit one...) and are very much divided. Ideology doesn't matter too much anymore in the Bibi machine: think Forza Italia. BY want Bennett's plan. All parties and individuals to the right of BY don't seem to think too much about this issue ("G-d will make sure everything will be alright"), and many of them probably want to expel the Palestinians, which, needless to say, is not realistic either. Nobody on the right, except for some idealists like Rivlin perhaps, wants to grant Palestinians full citizenship, and yet this is of course the most likely scenario in the event that a 1SS happens.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on March 11, 2018, 01:33:21 PM
Netanyahu getting indicted will in no way cause middle Israel to suddenly turn to the left. The left can't "win"/form a government as long as they don't have a credible argument regarding the peace process and the security situation, with which they can win over middle Israel. Most people want a 2SS (the "Lieberman plan" with landswaps is probably the best and most popular one) but don't trust the Palestinian Authority not to turn the West Bank into a second Gaza and therefore prefer the status-quo, which Likud offers, over (perceived) uncertainty. Just like left-wingers are the best ones to implement budget cuts, right-wingers are the best ones to broker a peace deal. But as one-staters become more dominant on the right, it is doubtful whether a 2SS will ever happen. Only a dramatic change in the status-quo can alter the current trajectory.

What Labour needs to do is to show middle Israel that they are committed to Zionism, which means purging "post-Zionist" (BtS, Peace Now, the whole NGO world) elements from Labour. Let them go to Meretz. Make sure the "on whose side are you?" question is not on people's minds anymore. Meanwhile, credibly advocate for lasting peace and security in a 2SS from a Zionist perspective, provide an unashamedly Social Democratic alternative to Likud's agenda of economic inequality and oligarchy, and be committed to upholding freedom of and from religion. Become a party that credibly aims to unite Jewish Israelis from different backgrounds instead of ignoring all Jews outside the Tel Aviv metro.

That sounds sensible on paper, but it simply doesn't seem to work. I mean, Gabbay is trying exactly that, and the polls are making it clear that it's having a negative effect (though, admittedly, his gaffes about religion probably contributed to that). Netanyahu has, for years, effectively branded the left as illegitimate traitors who must be purged. He's a vicious politician, ready to trample over everyone and everything to keep his power, and so far it worked for him, at least politically if not personally. That's why he needs to go- a corrupt despot is definitely not what Israel needs. Without him, I agree that the Israeli population won't suddenly turn left, but who knows what'll happen? A new leader for Likud might not be able to keep the magic going. In my view, Bibi desperately needs to go, even if just to clean up and make our political system healthy again.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on March 11, 2018, 01:42:58 PM
So what is the Israeli right's plan - if they do end up annexing the West Bank - about the many Arab residents? Give them full citizenship and risk a plurality (majority?) Arab electorate?
Likud don't have a clear plan (except that keeping the status-quo in place is also a choice, though not an explicit one...) and are very much divided. Ideology doesn't matter too much anymore in the Bibi machine: think Forza Italia. BY want Bennett's plan. All parties and individuals to the right of BY don't seem to think too much about this issue ("G-d will make sure everything will be alright"), and many of them probably want to expel the Palestinians, which, needless to say, is not realistic either. Nobody on the right, except for some idealists like Rivlin perhaps, wants to grant Palestinians full citizenship, and yet this is of course the most likely scenario in the event that a 1SS happens.

Do any leftists support a one-state plan along Rivlin's ideals?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 11, 2018, 01:59:55 PM
Do any leftists support a one-state plan along Rivlin's ideals?
As the 2SS seems less and less realistic, an increasing number of left-wingers, mostly post/anti-Zionists in the first place, start looking at alternatives like a 1SS; more on the fringe (like the 972mag crowd and, I guess, people like hnv1, though I might be wrong in his case) than on the center-left. Still a very small crowd, but it seems to be growing. Rivlin would still view the details of his 1SS very differently than these people, though.

That sounds sensible on paper, but it simply doesn't seem to work. I mean, Gabbay is trying exactly that, and the polls are making it clear that it's having a negative effect (though, admittedly, his gaffes about religion probably contributed to that). Netanyahu has, for years, effectively branded the left as illegitimate traitors who must be purged. He's a vicious politician, ready to trample over everyone and everything to keep his power, and so far it worked for him, at least politically if not personally. That's why he needs to go- a corrupt despot is definitely not what Israel needs. Without him, I agree that the Israeli population won't suddenly turn left, but who knows what'll happen? A new leader for Likud might not be able to keep the magic going. In my view, Bibi desperately needs to go, even if just to clean up and make our political system healthy again.
I don't think Gabbay's story on the economy is as convincing as it could (and should) be; isn't he more of a Third Wayist?

Other than that, I personally like him, but he just does not seem to be the ideal leader and Labour are so divided that any leader would have a difficult time internally in the first place, which is not good for one's popularity in general: it makes any leader look weak. I just don't see how Gabbay is meaningfully different from Lapid. And Labour carry a lot of negative baggage that Yesh Atid don't. I wonder if there would be any leader (some army guy?) who could at least unite the center-left.

I'd still say the main obstacle to a left-wing victory is the left's lack of a clear security agenda in combination with a lack of "patriotic credibility". But it has to go hand in hand with an economic alternative and with pointing out the injustices of Bibi's economic policy: if it becomes a patriotism contest, the side with "issue ownership" (i.e. the right) will win.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Kingpoleon on March 11, 2018, 02:05:04 PM
Pretty sure Edelstein and Benny Begin want a “Confederation” that separates Jews and Arabs/Palestinians.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 11, 2018, 03:51:26 PM
Pretty sure Edelstein and Benny Begin want a “Confederation” that separates Jews and Arabs/Palestinians.
a confederation that seperates, that's almost an oxymoron.

Quote
As the 2SS seems less and less realistic, an increasing number of left-wingers, mostly post/anti-Zionists in the first place, start looking at alternatives like a 1SS; more on the fringe (like the 972mag crowd and, I guess, people like hnv1, though I might be wrong in his case) than on the center-left. Still a very small crowd, but it seems to be growing. Rivlin would still view the details of his 1SS very differently than these people, though
Well basically I'm a pragmatist, I don't like nation states but if they were to produce the lowest amount of bloodshed and provide the easiest solution I would be for a 2SS.

Some part of me still supports it only because I know that any process leading to a one-state will be burdened with blood. But I also saw almost any possible 2S framework out there, and the only one reasonable enough to be agreed by both sides (Geneva initiative) is untenable in the long run due to two crucial factors: national aspirations of Palestinians living within Israel proper; the fact that Palestinian economy will be in a terrible shape and will be completely reliant (monetary and such) on the Israeli one.

In my Ideal world I would prefer a confederacy, but in reality I am really just worried as I don't see any path for peace now. Best thing possible now is unilateral withdrawal to something along the 67 borders with the large settlements to stop the escalating situation on the ground.

Quote
Netanyahu getting indicted will in no way cause middle Israel to suddenly turn to the left. The left can't "win"/form a government as long as they don't have a credible argument regarding the peace process and the security situation, with which they can win over middle Israel. Most people want a 2SS (the "Lieberman plan" with landswaps is probably the best and most popular one) but don't trust the Palestinian Authority not to turn the West Bank into a second Gaza and therefore prefer the status-quo, which Likud offers, over (perceived) uncertainty. Just like left-wingers are the best ones to implement budget cuts, right-wingers are the best ones to broker a peace deal. But as one-staters become more dominant on the right, it is doubtful whether a 2SS will ever happen. Only a dramatic change in the status-quo can alter the current trajectory.

What Labour needs to do is to show middle Israel that they are committed to Zionism, which means purging "post-Zionist" (BtS, Peace Now, the whole NGO world) elements from Labour. Let them go to Meretz. Make sure the "on whose side are you?" question is not on people's minds anymore. Meanwhile, credibly advocate for lasting peace and security in a 2SS from a Zionist perspective, provide an unashamedly Social Democratic alternative to Likud's agenda of economic inequality and oligarchy, and be committed to upholding freedom of and from religion. Become a party that credibly aims to unite Jewish Israelis from different backgrounds instead of ignoring all Jews outside the Tel Aviv metro
The main problem is that the bloc to the left of Likud (YA and Labour) has around 35 seats strength but its components are far less cohesive than Likud's one. the only connection is the disliking of the Likud but part for that we're talking about a very fragmented bloc of views and people.

I of course do not share your analysis of inner Jewish society social conditions (and I think Likud voters know the truth that their economic standings are not that bad so they don't believe in the Sephardi discrimination narrative). I think the old left (Labour for that matter, as Meretz can always take radical and younger form) is just dying as most centre-left parties in the west do. Socialism is impossible, and social issues of the global age are placing bigger problems for its semi-progressive positions than it does to conservative movements.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Kingpoleon on March 11, 2018, 09:54:17 PM
Quote
a confederation that separates, that's almost an oxymoron.

Yeah, but it’s not the stupidest idea for Israel and Palestine.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on March 13, 2018, 03:54:52 AM
Netanyahu getting indicted will in no way cause middle Israel to suddenly turn to the left. The left can't "win"/form a government as long as they don't have a credible argument regarding the peace process and the security situation, with which they can win over middle Israel. Most people want a 2SS (the "Lieberman plan" with landswaps is probably the best and most popular one) but don't trust the Palestinian Authority not to turn the West Bank into a second Gaza and therefore prefer the status-quo, which Likud offers, over (perceived) uncertainty. Just like left-wingers are the best ones to implement budget cuts, right-wingers are the best ones to broker a peace deal. But as one-staters become more dominant on the right, it is doubtful whether a 2SS will ever happen. Only a dramatic change in the status-quo can alter the current trajectory.

What Labour needs to do is to show middle Israel that they are committed to Zionism, which means purging "post-Zionist" (BtS, Peace Now, the whole NGO world) elements from Labour. Let them go to Meretz. Make sure the "on whose side are you?" question is not on people's minds anymore. Meanwhile, credibly advocate for lasting peace and security in a 2SS from a Zionist perspective, provide an unashamedly Social Democratic alternative to Likud's agenda of economic inequality and oligarchy, and be committed to upholding freedom of and from religion. Become a party that credibly aims to unite Jewish Israelis from different backgrounds instead of ignoring all Jews outside the Tel Aviv metro.

That sounds sensible on paper, but it simply doesn't seem to work. I mean, Gabbay is trying exactly that, and the polls are making it clear that it's having a negative effect (though, admittedly, his gaffes about religion probably contributed to that). Netanyahu has, for years, effectively branded the left as illegitimate traitors who must be purged. He's a vicious politician, ready to trample over everyone and everything to keep his power, and so far it worked for him, at least politically if not personally. That's why he needs to go- a corrupt despot is definitely not what Israel needs. Without him, I agree that the Israeli population won't suddenly turn left, but who knows what'll happen? A new leader for Likud might not be able to keep the magic going. In my view, Bibi desperately needs to go, even if just to clean up and make our political system healthy again.

As much as I hate to admit it, I don't think moving to the left or right on economics will make much of a difference for Labor. As much as things like the housing crisis may effect left-wing voters, it's clear that their main motivation for voting left is cultural. Economic populism may benefit blue collar people in Israel but those voters are already firmed committed to the right. Very similar to the situation in the United States.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 13, 2018, 06:36:51 AM
1. Stay tuned, we might be going to a GE tonight

2. Meretz primaries: Avi Dabush withdrew as well which leaves Zandberg (who he endorsed) facing Buskila and some nobodies. Tammy will probably win by at least 70% now. Gilon endorsed her this morning which means that part for Galon all the MKs of the past 5 years endorsed her.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on March 13, 2018, 10:05:20 AM
I think that the majority of their supporters will vote for Buskila despite their endorsement.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 13, 2018, 11:09:00 AM
So what's the draft law compromise exactly? I haven't followed this (paying almost no attention to IL politics anymore because it's just too depressing), but this is the issue that might make the government collapse, right? Which positions do the parties take here?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 13, 2018, 11:39:37 AM
I think that the majority of their supporters will vote for Buskila despite their endorsement.
With Gilon definitely not and his supporters will mainly flock to Zandberg (they pushed for the endorsement). With Dabush, there weren’t all that many, some will move to Buskila but the majority will just stay home. Buskila hardly ran an inspiring campaign and instead of using it as a platform for the list primaries he managed to anger quite a lot of people. Can’t see anything but a landslide here


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 13, 2018, 11:44:33 AM
So what's the draft law compromise exactly? I haven't followed this (paying almost no attention to IL politics anymore because it's just too depressing), but this is the issue that might make the government collapse, right? Which positions do the parties take here?
The compromise is a tangled affair:
The draft bill will be presented as private legislation so YB could vote against without having their ministers fired. It will pass only at a preliminary hearing and they’ll be working on accepted form in the future. The budget will go through as planned as 2-year budget.

The parties don’t really have positions on it as no one thinks this will be the bill passed at the end. But most coalition parties just agree that it’s a nonissue to go to a GE for


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on March 13, 2018, 12:34:55 PM
I think that the majority of their supporters will vote for Buskila despite their endorsement.
With Gilon definitely not and his supporters will mainly flock to Zandberg (they pushed for the endorsement). With Dabush, there weren’t all that many, some will move to Buskila but the majority will just stay home. Buskila hardly ran an inspiring campaign and instead of using it as a platform for the list primaries he managed to anger quite a lot of people. Can’t see anything but a landslide here
Many of the Gilon supporters feeling that Meretz not connecting with the public in the periphery,Buskila is much better option for them than Tamar(wich i like but she can't bring more votes to Mererz).
Endorsment is such overrated thing,i remind you that in the last Labour primary in the first round Peretz got 32% Margalit and Herzog got both also 32% together ,thay both endorsed Peretz and Gabbay still won.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 13, 2018, 02:44:42 PM
I think that the majority of their supporters will vote for Buskila despite their endorsement.
With Gilon definitely not and his supporters will mainly flock to Zandberg (they pushed for the endorsement). With Dabush, there weren’t all that many, some will move to Buskila but the majority will just stay home. Buskila hardly ran an inspiring campaign and instead of using it as a platform for the list primaries he managed to anger quite a lot of people. Can’t see anything but a landslide here
Many of the Gilon supporters feeling that Meretz not connecting with the public in the periphery,Buskila is much better option for them than Tamar(wich i like but she can't bring more votes to Mererz).
Endorsment is such overrated thing,i remind you that in the last Labour primary in the first round Peretz got 32% Margalit and Herzog got both also 32% together ,thay both endorsed Peretz and Gabbay still won.
I suspect you don't know how the reds (as they call themselves) work. They decided on that bottom to top, meaning they had 2 meetings with 500 supporters to decide who they will turn to. Gilon's group is very cohesive and it's not like he dictates the play there (prof. Gutwein does).

As to Buskila he might have been alternative, but he's clueless on economics and wouldn't give them the concessions they wanted (Tammy pretty much outsourced the economic part of the platform to them).

Bar for Peretz no one in Labour had any effective control on his voters so the analogy is unfit.

And as I said Buskila hardly ran an impressive campaign and Meretz members appreciate political experience and commitment more than to accept an absolute no one who came from no where with no clear positions.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on March 14, 2018, 10:04:44 AM
I think that the majority of their supporters will vote for Buskila despite their endorsement.
With Gilon definitely not and his supporters will mainly flock to Zandberg (they pushed for the endorsement). With Dabush, there weren’t all that many, some will move to Buskila but the majority will just stay home. Buskila hardly ran an inspiring campaign and instead of using it as a platform for the list primaries he managed to anger quite a lot of people. Can’t see anything but a landslide here
Many of the Gilon supporters feeling that Meretz not connecting with the public in the periphery,Buskila is much better option for them than Tamar(wich i like but she can't bring more votes to Mererz).
Endorsment is such overrated thing,i remind you that in the last Labour primary in the first round Peretz got 32% Margalit and Herzog got both also 32% together ,thay both endorsed Peretz and Gabbay still won.
I suspect you don't know how the reds (as they call themselves) work. They decided on that bottom to top, meaning they had 2 meetings with 500 supporters to decide who they will turn to. Gilon's group is very cohesive and it's not like he dictates the play there (prof. Gutwein does).

As to Buskila he might have been alternative, but he's clueless on economics and wouldn't give them the concessions they wanted (Tammy pretty much outsourced the economic part of the platform to them).

Bar for Peretz no one in Labour had any effective control on his voters so the analogy is unfit.

And as I said Buskila hardly ran an impressive campaign and Meretz members appreciate political experience and commitment more than to accept an absolute no one who came from no where with no clear positions.
Your distate from every sephard candidate is racist.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 14, 2018, 10:33:00 AM
Your distate from every sephard candidate is racist.
LOL
Some part of me still supports it only because I know that any process leading to a one-state will be burdened with blood. But I also saw almost any possible 2S framework out there, and the only one reasonable enough to be agreed by both sides (Geneva initiative) is untenable in the long run due to two crucial factors: national aspirations of Palestinians living within Israel proper; the fact that Palestinian economy will be in a terrible shape and will be completely reliant (monetary and such) on the Israeli one.

In my Ideal world I would prefer a confederacy, but in reality I am really just worried as I don't see any path for peace now.
I basically agree with this. I have softened on the 2SS recently because while the best-case 1SS scenario is better than any 2SS scenario, most 1SS scenarios are far more disastrous than most 2SS scenarios.

The main problem is that the bloc to the left of Likud (YA and Labour) has around 35 seats strength but its components are far less cohesive than Likud's one. the only connection is the disliking of the Likud but part for that we're talking about a very fragmented bloc of views and people.
I would say that the main problem for the center-left is that they have such a small number of seats in the first place. If you want to form a government without the right, you have to win back voters that vote for these parties now. Kulanu is an obvious one, but you're going to have to win over  Likud/YB voters as well.

I of course do not share your analysis of inner Jewish society social conditions (and I think Likud voters know the truth that their economic standings are not that bad so they don't believe in the Sephardi discrimination narrative). I think the old left (Labour for that matter, as Meretz can always take radical and younger form) is just dying as most centre-left parties in the west do. Socialism is impossible, and social issues of the global age are placing bigger problems for its semi-progressive positions than it does to conservative movements.
My analysis on the discrimination of Mizrahim and their economic position has changed quite a bit over time, and I agree my previous comments on it were at least exaggerated. I personally do not agree with the idea that the increasing salience of the globalization vs. nationalism divide means that the traditional left-right divide has become outdated. I do not believe in socialism, but social democracy is both possible and needed, just not in the same, dogmatic way as in the days of yore. There needs to be a credible, economically left-wing alternative to Likud's policy of oligarchy and inequality. I am not saying most people have it bad, but too many people are struggling too much, more than necessary in a country that is as wealthy as Israel is.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on March 14, 2018, 10:36:58 AM
I think that the majority of their supporters will vote for Buskila despite their endorsement.
With Gilon definitely not and his supporters will mainly flock to Zandberg (they pushed for the endorsement). With Dabush, there weren’t all that many, some will move to Buskila but the majority will just stay home. Buskila hardly ran an inspiring campaign and instead of using it as a platform for the list primaries he managed to anger quite a lot of people. Can’t see anything but a landslide here
Many of the Gilon supporters feeling that Meretz not connecting with the public in the periphery,Buskila is much better option for them than Tamar(wich i like but she can't bring more votes to Mererz).
Endorsment is such overrated thing,i remind you that in the last Labour primary in the first round Peretz got 32% Margalit and Herzog got both also 32% together ,thay both endorsed Peretz and Gabbay still won.
I suspect you don't know how the reds (as they call themselves) work. They decided on that bottom to top, meaning they had 2 meetings with 500 supporters to decide who they will turn to. Gilon's group is very cohesive and it's not like he dictates the play there (prof. Gutwein does).

As to Buskila he might have been alternative, but he's clueless on economics and wouldn't give them the concessions they wanted (Tammy pretty much outsourced the economic part of the platform to them).

Bar for Peretz no one in Labour had any effective control on his voters so the analogy is unfit.

And as I said Buskila hardly ran an impressive campaign and Meretz members appreciate political experience and commitment more than to accept an absolute no one who came from no where with no clear positions.
Your distate from every sephard candidate is racist.

Your'e quick to blame people of racism, especially when his post criticised not just Buskila but Gilon and Zandberg too.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 14, 2018, 10:52:17 AM
I think that the majority of their supporters will vote for Buskila despite their endorsement.
With Gilon definitely not and his supporters will mainly flock to Zandberg (they pushed for the endorsement). With Dabush, there weren’t all that many, some will move to Buskila but the majority will just stay home. Buskila hardly ran an inspiring campaign and instead of using it as a platform for the list primaries he managed to anger quite a lot of people. Can’t see anything but a landslide here
Many of the Gilon supporters feeling that Meretz not connecting with the public in the periphery,Buskila is much better option for them than Tamar(wich i like but she can't bring more votes to Mererz).
Endorsment is such overrated thing,i remind you that in the last Labour primary in the first round Peretz got 32% Margalit and Herzog got both also 32% together ,thay both endorsed Peretz and Gabbay still won.
I suspect you don't know how the reds (as they call themselves) work. They decided on that bottom to top, meaning they had 2 meetings with 500 supporters to decide who they will turn to. Gilon's group is very cohesive and it's not like he dictates the play there (prof. Gutwein does).

As to Buskila he might have been alternative, but he's clueless on economics and wouldn't give them the concessions they wanted (Tammy pretty much outsourced the economic part of the platform to them).

Bar for Peretz no one in Labour had any effective control on his voters so the analogy is unfit.

And as I said Buskila hardly ran an impressive campaign and Meretz members appreciate political experience and commitment more than to accept an absolute no one who came from no where with no clear positions.
Your distate from every sephard candidate is racist.
You do know that I’m Sephardic (half)? And a big supporter of Raz who is Sephardic. I just don’t like identity politics and instant politician. This is not a publicity contest, I want more competent politicians and Buskila fails to meet that standard (Peretz whom I don’t like is a very competent politician)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DC Al Fine on March 14, 2018, 12:48:10 PM
Dumb question: how hard is it to tell Ashkenazi and Sephardic people apart? Is it really obvious to the eye, or would you need to listen to their accent or ask them directly to know?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on March 14, 2018, 01:13:58 PM
Dumb question: how hard is it to tell Ashkenazi and Sephardic people apart? Is it really obvious to the eye, or would you need to listen to their accent or ask them directly to know?
Never tohougt about it,usually The ashkenazi looking more European while Sephardic looking more Middle Eastern.
Sometimes Sephardic has darker skin but not always,i am a Sephardic with really white skin.
Sephardic women
()
Ashkenazi women
()


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on March 14, 2018, 01:22:30 PM
I think that the majority of their supporters will vote for Buskila despite their endorsement.
With Gilon definitely not and his supporters will mainly flock to Zandberg (they pushed for the endorsement). With Dabush, there weren’t all that many, some will move to Buskila but the majority will just stay home. Buskila hardly ran an inspiring campaign and instead of using it as a platform for the list primaries he managed to anger quite a lot of people. Can’t see anything but a landslide here
Many of the Gilon supporters feeling that Meretz not connecting with the public in the periphery,Buskila is much better option for them than Tamar(wich i like but she can't bring more votes to Mererz).
Endorsment is such overrated thing,i remind you that in the last Labour primary in the first round Peretz got 32% Margalit and Herzog got both also 32% together ,thay both endorsed Peretz and Gabbay still won.
I suspect you don't know how the reds (as they call themselves) work. They decided on that bottom to top, meaning they had 2 meetings with 500 supporters to decide who they will turn to. Gilon's group is very cohesive and it's not like he dictates the play there (prof. Gutwein does).

As to Buskila he might have been alternative, but he's clueless on economics and wouldn't give them the concessions they wanted (Tammy pretty much outsourced the economic part of the platform to them).

Bar for Peretz no one in Labour had any effective control on his voters so the analogy is unfit.

And as I said Buskila hardly ran an impressive campaign and Meretz members appreciate political experience and commitment more than to accept an absolute no one who came from no where with no clear positions.
Your distate from every sephard candidate is racist.
You do know that I’m Sephardic (half)? And a big supporter of Raz who is Sephardic. I just don’t like identity politics and instant politician. This is not a publicity contest, I want more competent politicians and Buskila fails to meet that standard (Peretz whom I don’t like is a very competent politician)
I never supported identity politics and Peretz never used identity politics,Gabbay actually tried to use idenity politics.
Gabbay is a total failure.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 14, 2018, 02:09:14 PM
Dumb question: how hard is it to tell Ashkenazi and Sephardic people apart? Is it really obvious to the eye, or would you need to listen to their accent or ask them directly to know?
In some cases it's clear, in many (and increasingly many, as intermarriage has become common) it isn't. You can sometimes tell from people's surnames, but even then these people might be mixed nowadays.

From the picture on the right it would be difficult for me to see whether she is Ashkenazi or Mizrahi. On the picture on the left it is clearer.

Most Ashkenazim of course do not look like the blonde model at all.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on March 14, 2018, 02:52:55 PM
Dumb question: how hard is it to tell Ashkenazi and Sephardic people apart? Is it really obvious to the eye, or would you need to listen to their accent or ask them directly to know?
In some cases it's clear, in many (and increasingly many, as intermarriage has become common) it isn't. You can sometimes tell from people's surnames, but even then these people might be mixed nowadays.

From the picture on the right it would be difficult for me to see whether she is Ashkenazi or Mizrahi. On the picture on the left it is clearer.

Most Ashkenazim of course do not look like the blonde model at all.

Most people generally don't look like models :P But yeah, many Israelis today are mixed anyway, which I think created the distinct "Israeli look" rather than just "European look" or "Arabic look".


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on March 14, 2018, 03:07:04 PM
Knesset channel reported that Kachlon going to return to the Likud.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on March 14, 2018, 03:07:46 PM
Knesset channel reported that Kachlon going to return to the Likud.
Lmao. His whole party, then, I assume?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on March 14, 2018, 03:09:48 PM
Knesset channel reported that Kachlon going to return to the Likud.

What? This is extremely bizarre right now. Would make sense after Bibi is indicted with the intention of running for leadership but this?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 14, 2018, 04:39:06 PM
I think that the majority of their supporters will vote for Buskila despite their endorsement.
With Gilon definitely not and his supporters will mainly flock to Zandberg (they pushed for the endorsement). With Dabush, there weren’t all that many, some will move to Buskila but the majority will just stay home. Buskila hardly ran an inspiring campaign and instead of using it as a platform for the list primaries he managed to anger quite a lot of people. Can’t see anything but a landslide here
Many of the Gilon supporters feeling that Meretz not connecting with the public in the periphery,Buskila is much better option for them than Tamar(wich i like but she can't bring more votes to Mererz).
Endorsment is such overrated thing,i remind you that in the last Labour primary in the first round Peretz got 32% Margalit and Herzog got both also 32% together ,thay both endorsed Peretz and Gabbay still won.
I suspect you don't know how the reds (as they call themselves) work. They decided on that bottom to top, meaning they had 2 meetings with 500 supporters to decide who they will turn to. Gilon's group is very cohesive and it's not like he dictates the play there (prof. Gutwein does).

As to Buskila he might have been alternative, but he's clueless on economics and wouldn't give them the concessions they wanted (Tammy pretty much outsourced the economic part of the platform to them).

Bar for Peretz no one in Labour had any effective control on his voters so the analogy is unfit.

And as I said Buskila hardly ran an impressive campaign and Meretz members appreciate political experience and commitment more than to accept an absolute no one who came from no where with no clear positions.
Your distate from every sephard candidate is racist.
You do know that I’m Sephardic (half)? And a big supporter of Raz who is Sephardic. I just don’t like identity politics and instant politician. This is not a publicity contest, I want more competent politicians and Buskila fails to meet that standard (Peretz whom I don’t like is a very competent politician)
I never supported identity politics and Peretz never used identity politics,Gabbay actually tried to use idenity politics.
Gabbay is a total failure.
Jesus wept. I was referring to Buskila’s tactic


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 14, 2018, 04:41:18 PM
Knesset channel reported that Kachlon going to return to the Likud.
Lmao. His whole party, then, I assume?
Galant, Cohen, and Oren are effectively knee deep in Likud already. But there’s no way Azaria and Ben Ari joins (in that case they’d drift to YA) and I doubt Polkman will join in as well.

Anyway I highly doubt it


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Mike88 on March 17, 2018, 11:34:36 AM
Poll from Geocartography/Israel Hayom: (http://www.israelhayom.com/2018/03/16/fresh-off-coalition-crisis-likud-soars-even-higher-in-polls/)

39 Likud
20 YA
10 JL
10 ZU
  9 UTJ
  8 JH
  7 Levy
  7 Meretz
  5 Kulanu
  5 YB
  0 Shas


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 17, 2018, 02:18:04 PM
Poll from Geocartography/Israel Hayom: (http://www.israelhayom.com/2018/03/16/fresh-off-coalition-crisis-likud-soars-even-higher-in-polls/)

39 Likud
20 YA
10 JL
10 ZU
  9 UTJ
  8 JH
  7 Levy
  7 Meretz
  5 Kulanu
  5 YB
  0 Shas
Geocartography are by far the worst pollsters in Israel, and I've been following politics for quite a while. so many oddball results they produce all the time. rubbish.

Anyway Kachlon said that an indictment means Bibi will have to resign, which is progress.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Mike88 on March 17, 2018, 02:39:08 PM
Poll from Geocartography/Israel Hayom: (http://www.israelhayom.com/2018/03/16/fresh-off-coalition-crisis-likud-soars-even-higher-in-polls/)

39 Likud
20 YA
10 JL
10 ZU
  9 UTJ
  8 JH
  7 Levy
  7 Meretz
  5 Kulanu
  5 YB
  0 Shas
Geocartography are by far the worst pollsters in Israel, and I've been following politics for quite a while. so many oddball results they produce all the time. rubbish.

Anyway Kachlon said that an indictment means Bibi will have to resign, which is progress.
Now that you mention, in the Wiki page they have Likud well above 30 since January. They seem to be an outlier. One question: If Bibi is indicted, would he be allowed to run for a 4th term or would he be barred?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 17, 2018, 03:31:02 PM
Poll from Geocartography/Israel Hayom: (http://www.israelhayom.com/2018/03/16/fresh-off-coalition-crisis-likud-soars-even-higher-in-polls/)

39 Likud
20 YA
10 JL
10 ZU
  9 UTJ
  8 JH
  7 Levy
  7 Meretz
  5 Kulanu
  5 YB
  0 Shas
Geocartography are by far the worst pollsters in Israel, and I've been following politics for quite a while. so many oddball results they produce all the time. rubbish.

Anyway Kachlon said that an indictment means Bibi will have to resign, which is progress.
Now that you mention, in the Wiki page they have Likud well above 30 since January. They seem to be an outlier. One question: If Bibi is indicted, would he be allowed to run for a 4th term or would he be barred?
legally speaking he will be allowed. actually the basic law says that only after a conviction by an appellate court the house can vote him out with a special majority. But politically he probably can't survive conviction (the indictment will be a test by itself), and if he holds on still somehow the SC could interfere.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Frodo on March 18, 2018, 09:01:43 AM
Sound familiar?

In Israel’s Poorer Periphery, Legal Woes Don’t Dent Netanyahu’s Appeal
(https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/17/world/middleeast/benjamin-netanyahu-israel-likud.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news)
Quote
In the more liberal bastions of Tel Aviv and its well-to-do suburbs, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s critics tut-tut with each new revelation in the intensifying bribery cases against him, condemning his attacks on the police and eagerly anticipating his political downfall with each former aide who turns state’s witness.

But in the other Israel — poorer areas on the periphery, beyond the country’s commercial center — Mr. Netanyahu is widely hailed as a great orator and a world-class statesman who has brought prosperity and safeguarded the country’s security in a hostile neighborhood.

“The more they attack us, the stronger we get,” said Yehuda Ayyash, 58, a greengrocer in the blue-collar town of Kiryat Malachi in southern Israel. It was a view shared by friends sitting around a table outside a kiosk selling lottery tickets in the shabby town center. “Gifts, no gifts. There is nobody in politics who is unblemished. It’s give and take.” Besides, Mr. Ayyash added, “there is nobody else.”

(...)The seeming dissonance between a rise in the polls and the prime minister’s deepening legal troubles makes complete sense to Mr. Netanyahu’s defiant base in Kiryat Malachi and in other strongholds of his conservative Likud party. In these parts, Bibi, as he is lovingly nicknamed, is extolled as a popular hero who is persecuted by a liberal news media; a leader without peer whose peccadilloes are easily forgiven.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 21, 2018, 01:37:01 PM
Meretz primaries tomorrow. I predict 65-33-2 to Zandberg


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on March 21, 2018, 02:56:43 PM

It sounds familiar because journalists are a lazy bunch these days and tend to write the same article about very different situations with only the names changed. Everything in all countries everywhere is now an allegory about Trump, apparently. Yawn.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on March 21, 2018, 04:45:18 PM

The idea that supporters of a political party or candidate would continue their support despite a scandal is a hardly a new phenomenon first seen with Trump, and the Bibi and and Trump demographics are quite different and Bibi didn't attract some significant group that never voted for him before. Also, Trump lost in all 20 of the biggest cities, while Likud was the biggest in 13 of them.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 22, 2018, 03:22:53 PM
Turnout as anticipated was low on 53.6%. Good for Buskila


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on March 22, 2018, 03:33:12 PM
As expected, Zandberg wins.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on March 22, 2018, 03:37:20 PM
Zandberg: 12,112 votes 71.12%
Buskila: 4,851 votes 28.48%


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on March 22, 2018, 03:47:45 PM
*Snore*
I wish Galon and Gilon had stayed in, if only to make this more exciting.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on March 22, 2018, 05:56:17 PM
With the positive bump and the green-SPD trend going I think we’ll see polls where Meretz leapfrog the ZU


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on April 02, 2018, 05:16:22 PM
I don't know what the hell is going on in Israel, but I read that Netanyahu wants to retract the plan of deporting 37,000 illegal African immigrants to Rwanda and Uganda; instead, he now wants half of them to stay in Israel and half of them to be assigned a country through the UN refugee quota thing. For the latter category, Netanyahu apparently explicitly said that countries like Germany, Italy and Canada could take them, which is bafflingly stupid diplomatically, especially given how toxic this subject is. What's more, antisemites always say Israel/teh j00z want "diversity for thee, but not for me", which has always been easy for me to debunk; however, this action basically leaves me speechless when confronted with such accusations. If these people are not welcome in Israel (and they should not be welcome imo), why the hell does Netanyahu think Germany and Italy should take them in? Everything about this story seems to be outrageous, in addition to the fact that everyone involved here appears to be extremely incompetent, but I really hope the Dutch NRC Handelsblad has informed me wrongly, which tends to happen on issues regarding Israel. Could anybody explain to me why the original plan was cancelled? Who in the Knesset now stopped supporting it?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MaxQue on April 02, 2018, 07:25:15 PM
I don't know what the hell is going on in Israel, but I read that Netanyahu wants to retract the plan of deporting 37.000 illegal African immigrants to Rwanda and Uganda; instead, he now wants half of them to stay in Israel and half of them to be assigned a country through the UN refugee quota thing. For the latter category, Netanyahu apparently explicitly said that countries like Germany, Italy and Canada could take them, which is bafflingly stupid diplomatically, especially given how toxic this subject is. What's more, antisemites always say Israel/teh j00z want "diversity for thee, but not for me", which has always been easy for me to debunk; however, this action basically leaves me speechless when confronted with such accusations. If these people are not welcome in Israel (and they should not be welcome imo), why the hell does Netanyahu think Germany and Italy should take them in? Everything about this story seems to be outrageous, in addition to the fact that everyone involved here appears to be extremely incompetent, but I really hope the Dutch NRC Handelsblad has informed me wrongly, which tends to happen on issues regarding Israel. Could anybody explain to me why the original plan was cancelled? Who in the Knesset now stopped supporting it?

The African plan was rejected due to failing to finance the plan in the budget (obviously, the African countries want money to take back people) and now the European plan is suspended (because the most right elements of his coalition are against).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 03, 2018, 03:26:23 AM
I don't know what the hell is going on in Israel, but I read that Netanyahu wants to retract the plan of deporting 37.000 illegal African immigrants to Rwanda and Uganda; instead, he now wants half of them to stay in Israel and half of them to be assigned a country through the UN refugee quota thing. For the latter category, Netanyahu apparently explicitly said that countries like Germany, Italy and Canada could take them, which is bafflingly stupid diplomatically, especially given how toxic this subject is. What's more, antisemites always say Israel/teh j00z want "diversity for thee, but not for me", which has always been easy for me to debunk; however, this action basically leaves me speechless when confronted with such accusations. If these people are not welcome in Israel (and they should not be welcome imo), why the hell does Netanyahu think Germany and Italy should take them in? Everything about this story seems to be outrageous, in addition to the fact that everyone involved here appears to be extremely incompetent, but I really hope the Dutch NRC Handelsblad has informed me wrongly, which tends to happen on issues regarding Israel. Could anybody explain to me why the original plan was cancelled? Who in the Knesset now stopped supporting it?

I believe that your media informed you fairly well. But, I mean, it's quite simple, no? Israel is a tiny country. These migrants are a big, real, and very well-felt problem that make life in many big cities and neighbourhoods horrible. Norway, Germany, Canada etc are large countries with plenty of space where this amount of African immigrants will be barely felt if at all. So I wholeheartedly support this agreement. But yes, it was stupidly done because it appears as if, like always, Bibi spoke before getting the permission of the countries he mentioned. In simple words, he lied. Like always.
What this tells you about Bibi, whether you support the agreement or not, whether your left or right, is that he's not a leader- he's not bold and brave like he pretends to be, but rather a coward, a pathetic straw swaying with the winds who gets scared by a few statements from Bennet.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: palandio on April 03, 2018, 05:28:12 AM
As far as I understand there is a UNHCR resettlement program to resettle a fixed quota of refugees every year. Countries like Canada, Germany, Italy and others haved pledged to take a certain share of these quotas. The quotas are by today's standards quite low. In my opinion programs like this can (should?) be part of a responsible, sustainable international refugee policy.

But the current story seems like a total PR desaster to me. From the reporting it appears like Israel could just dump half of these rejected asylum seekers into the program. It also seems like these were supposed to be additional immigrants and not to be included into already existing quotas (To be honest the program and the quotas often weren't even mentioned prominently.) Remember that >1,000,000 "now they're here anyways" have come to Germany since 2015. The articles about the UNHCR-Israel deal have been the most read articles on some of the most important German news platforms yesterday. Can you immagine what people are thinking now?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on April 03, 2018, 05:57:24 AM
Palandio is right. Norway may be much bigger than Israel in terms of land mass, but it has a much smaller population. The Tel Aviv metro area is about four times as big as the Oslo metro area. Therefore, I would be inclined to say that taking in 16,000 African migrants has an even bigger impact on Norway than on Israel. Italy and Germany are different cases, but they already have a big problem with enormous numbers of migrants, and they have certainly taken in more migrants per capita than Israel. Why would this be any less disruptive to society than in Israel? This whole line of reasoning that Israel can remain a fortress (which I agree with; I definitely don't want Israel to take these people in!) but Europe should open its borders is outrageous. In addition, plans like these are the best way to alienate European right-wing sympathizers. I was already approached by several friends who wanted to know whether this was real ("Interesting how Israel can strike a UN deal like this for such a small number of migrants but we cannot do it for a much bigger number"). This made the headlines in Europe. I completely agree about Bibi, by the way, but I think you know I haven't been particularly fond of him for a long time.

I am still interested in learning why the initial agreement was cancelled, and who was responsible for that.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 03, 2018, 06:10:26 AM
I agree that this was a PR disaster and done very incompetently by the Netanyahu government (like pretty much everything else). However, I'd argue that in substance this is a good deal for Israel- whether it's a good deal for other countries is another question, but I wouldn't fault my government for signing such a good deal. Forced deportations are not just terrible optics, but also very inhumane, and I wouldn't want to see them happening in my country, so this is in my opinion the only way to solve this problem. I'd also argue that landmass matters- these migrants have basically ruined the lives of Southern Tel Aviv residents, and it's a big problem. I don't know Norway enough, but I think they have the space to spread them enough so that it doesn't disrupt people's lives. If not, well, countries like Canada exist. Generally, it is my opinion that Canada and the U.S. are by far the most superior countries to take immigration, making me left-wing in regards to U.S. immigration matters and at the very least center-right in regards to European immigration.
But that's besides the point. I don't think that Israel should make decisions based on what a few right-wingers in Europe think (or for that matter, left-wingers too), it should make decision based on what's good for its citizens. I also believe that your friend's argument is pretty weak, because, indeed, it's much easier to strike a deal for a small number of immigrants than strike a deal that changes the location of a 'a much bigger number'.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on April 03, 2018, 06:39:21 AM
I agree that this was a PR disaster and done very incompetently by the Netanyahu government (like pretty much everything else). However, I'd argue that in substance this is a good deal for Israel- whether it's a good deal for other countries is another question, but I wouldn't fault my government for signing such a good deal. Forced deportations are not just terrible optics, but also very inhumane, and I wouldn't want to see them happening in my country, so this is in my opinion the only way to solve this problem. I'd also argue that landmass matters- these migrants have basically ruined the lives of Southern Tel Aviv residents, and it's a big problem. I don't know Norway enough, but I think they have the space to spread them enough so that it doesn't disrupt people's lives. If not, well, countries like Canada exist. Generally, it is my opinion that Canada and the U.S. are by far the most superior countries to take immigration, making me left-wing in regards to U.S. immigration matters and at the very least center-right in regards to European immigration.
But that's besides the point. I don't think that Israel should make decisions based on what a few right-wingers in Europe think (or for that matter, left-wingers too), it should make decision based on what's good for its citizens. I also believe that your friend's argument is pretty weak, because, indeed, it's much easier to strike a deal for a small number of immigrants than strike a deal that changes the location of a 'a much bigger number'.

Norway has the space? That's ridiculous. Land mass is irrelevant when talking about immigration. It's not like these immigrants are going to be settled on previously non-residential farm land. These immigrants, like 99% of immigrants to Europe, are going to be given housing in the centers of major cities, where most native born citizens could not themselves afford to live.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on April 03, 2018, 06:46:57 AM
Neither do I think Israel should make decisions based on what European right-wingers think. I am rather arguing that it is not in Israel's strategic interest to alienate Europeans this way. Israel spends a lot of time and attention on PR (the term "hasbara" has already backfired for this reason) and clearly understands that it is in the country's own strategic interest if the European public have a positive perception of the country: after all, this plays a role in the political choices European leaders make. EU member states whose citizens have a more negative view of Israel (e.g. Sweden, Ireland) tend to be more harsh on Israel in international fora, including the increasingly important EU itself. If alienating Europeans this way happens repeatedly (and you don't even have to be particularly right-wing to think this move is outrageous), Israel might pay a price for it in the future. Meanwhile, the strategic costs of deporting 35k or so people to Africa are zero. I cannot imagine any voter for a coalition party opposing this either.

Let me be very clear that the main reason why I am opposed to this deal is because I think it is outrageous and these migrants should not be welcomed in either Europe or Israel, but I understand that the abovementioned strategic argument would be more convincing to some Israelis.

You say you are opposed to forced deportations and therefore support this deal. I am not sure what you think would happen to these 16k people who would be relocated through the UN deal. They would be forcefully deported from Israel too.

Meanwhile, is there anybody who could answer my initial question?

These immigrants, like 99% of immigrants to Europe, are going to be given housing in the centers of major cities, where most native born citizens could not themselves afford to live.
I agreed with your main point that land mass is irrelevant, but this is untrue. Almost no immigrants end up living in the city centers. Instead, they tend to live in social housing projects in working-class neighborhoods outside the city center (which is problematic in times of housing shortages, of course); the type of area I live in. In the Netherlands, every municipality has to take in a certain percentage of migrants. Rich municipalities full of VVD/D66/GL voters pay poorer ones to take in their share.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 03, 2018, 06:53:00 AM
You say you are opposed to forced deportations and therefore support this deal. I am not sure what you think would happen to these 16k people who would be relocated through the UN deal. They would be forcefully deported from Israel too.

Meanwhile, is there anybody who could answer my initial question?

Somehow I think that the immigrants would happily agree to go to Canada or Germany without any need to use force :P The problem with sending them to African countries was that you couldn't guarantee their safety. The strategic argument has a point, but in my opinion the PR damage wouldn't be large enough to make this deal uncompelling.
As for the initial question, it's probably a combination of Netanyahu bending to the slightest of right-wing pressure and not actually talking to the leaders of the host countries before announcing, but I'm not 100% sure.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MaxQue on April 03, 2018, 03:03:29 PM
You say you are opposed to forced deportations and therefore support this deal. I am not sure what you think would happen to these 16k people who would be relocated through the UN deal. They would be forcefully deported from Israel too.

Meanwhile, is there anybody who could answer my initial question?

Somehow I think that the immigrants would happily agree to go to Canada or Germany without any need to use force :P The problem with sending them to African countries was that you couldn't guarantee their safety. The strategic argument has a point, but in my opinion the PR damage wouldn't be large enough to make this deal uncompelling.
As for the initial question, it's probably a combination of Netanyahu bending to the slightest of right-wing pressure and not actually talking to the leaders of the host countries before announcing, but I'm not 100% sure.

He did the talking, Canada confirmed we were talking with Israel since a month. However, not  much has happened except than people with private sponsors will be allowed to stay in Canada until their immigration demand is ruled on (when the usual process is for them to stay where they were before, i.e. Israel).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: EPG on April 03, 2018, 03:04:09 PM
Israel is a tiny country. These migrants are a big, real, and very well-felt problem that make life in many big cities and neighbourhoods horrible. Norway, Germany, Canada etc are large countries with plenty of space where this amount of African immigrants will be barely felt if at all. So I wholeheartedly support this agreement.

The argument almost makes sense. But there is a problem. This kind of place is why Norway is a large country.
()
Lovely fjord. But that is not where immigrants, who don't speak any kind of Norwegian, tend to go. They tend to go to this kind of place.
()
Bougie streetscape with passersby who may have some money. Which is also where everyone else in the country under the age of 35 wants to live. It may be true that the low-income migrants don't live there. But they go there. So everyone ends up seeing the social problem. People like their social problems to be hidden, goddammit!


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 03, 2018, 03:37:26 PM
You say you are opposed to forced deportations and therefore support this deal. I am not sure what you think would happen to these 16k people who would be relocated through the UN deal. They would be forcefully deported from Israel too.

Meanwhile, is there anybody who could answer my initial question?

Somehow I think that the immigrants would happily agree to go to Canada or Germany without any need to use force :P The problem with sending them to African countries was that you couldn't guarantee their safety. The strategic argument has a point, but in my opinion the PR damage wouldn't be large enough to make this deal uncompelling.
As for the initial question, it's probably a combination of Netanyahu bending to the slightest of right-wing pressure and not actually talking to the leaders of the host countries before announcing, but I'm not 100% sure.

He did the talking, Canada confirmed we were talking with Israel since a month. However, not  much has happened except than people with private sponsors will be allowed to stay in Canada until their immigration demand is ruled on (when the usual process is for them to stay where they were before, i.e. Israel).

Yeah, I meant actually reaching sustainable agreements before announcing stuff.

Re: Norway- I understand, but that's kind of besides the point, when countries like Canada (and Germany, though I personally do not believe it's a good country to receive immigration) exist.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MaxQue on April 03, 2018, 07:46:45 PM
I don't know what the hell is going on in Israel, but I read that Netanyahu wants to retract the plan of deporting 37,000 illegal African immigrants to Rwanda and Uganda; instead, he now wants half of them to stay in Israel and half of them to be assigned a country through the UN refugee quota thing. For the latter category, Netanyahu apparently explicitly said that countries like Germany, Italy and Canada could take them, which is bafflingly stupid diplomatically, especially given how toxic this subject is. What's more, antisemites always say Israel/teh j00z want "diversity for thee, but not for me", which has always been easy for me to debunk; however, this action basically leaves me speechless when confronted with such accusations. If these people are not welcome in Israel (and they should not be welcome imo), why the hell does Netanyahu think Germany and Italy should take them in? Everything about this story seems to be outrageous, in addition to the fact that everyone involved here appears to be extremely incompetent, but I really hope the Dutch NRC Handelsblad has informed me wrongly, which tends to happen on issues regarding Israel. Could anybody explain to me why the original plan was cancelled? Who in the Knesset now stopped supporting it?

Bibi confirmed the original plan was cancelled because Rwanda pulled out.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: publicunofficial on April 07, 2018, 10:47:05 AM
No discussion on Israel murdering unarmed protesters and journalists this week? Cool.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 07, 2018, 10:52:29 AM
No discussion on Israel murdering unarmed protesters and journalists this week? Cool.

No, people who comment here are usually informed by local media with some knowledge of the issue rather than biased, misinformed international media like you consume.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on April 07, 2018, 11:26:36 AM
No discussion on Israel murdering unarmed protesters and journalists this week? Cool.

Oh, great! You're back! Can't wait for you to start spewing blood libels and demented murder fantasies again!


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on April 07, 2018, 11:28:12 AM
The new ignore option was specifically designed for deranged posters like publicunofficial. Please don't spoil the joy by quoting him.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: All Along The Watchtower on April 07, 2018, 11:34:34 AM
()

For DavidB, Ray Goldfied, and others.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on April 07, 2018, 11:38:26 AM
So, we've just got an organized troll group in this thread today. Great.

Also, **** Hamas and its amen corner.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: All Along The Watchtower on April 07, 2018, 11:39:04 AM
So, we've just got an organized troll group in this thread today. Great.

Also, **** Hamas and its amen corner.

What does this have to do with the price of salt?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on April 07, 2018, 01:05:06 PM
No discussion on Israel murdering unarmed protesters and journalists this week? Cool.
Well basically we use this threads for political discussions in the narrow sense. If you must have our humble opinion then: I think Israel and Hamas are playing a dangerous game here that could spiral out of control, I don't like the use of live fire by soldiers and the very loose engagement policy there but I'm not sure the reporter shot was with intention to shoot a reporter, there was limited visibility that day and riots are hardly a neatly affair. Anyway there's not much you can do when hundreds are marching to the border, if you don't stop them then they'll come back again in bigger numbers and eventually cross over. This is not the streets of Atlanta, and this protests are almost semi militarized.

anyway I said to a friend a year ago that when Palestinians will march in their hundreds of thousands to the border it will be the end, we're not for from there. 


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Horus on April 07, 2018, 02:55:15 PM
No discussion on Israel murdering unarmed protesters and journalists this week? Cool.

Oh, great! You're back! Can't wait for you to start spewing blood libels and demented murder fantasies again!

Can't wait for Ray to call the sun, moon and stars antisemitic for existing.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 07, 2018, 03:06:08 PM
No discussion on Israel murdering unarmed protesters and journalists this week? Cool.

anyway I said to a friend a year ago that when Palestinians will march in their hundreds of thousands to the border it will be the end, we're not for from there. 

Well, if this becomes a tactic then we're gonna need to build a big, beautiful, powerful wall, and we'll have a large, beautiful door so that we can come in whenever we need to stop them from firing rockets at our civilians.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on April 07, 2018, 03:44:43 PM
No discussion on Israel murdering unarmed protesters and journalists this week? Cool.

Oh, great! You're back! Can't wait for you to start spewing blood libels and demented murder fantasies again!

Can't wait for Ray to call the sun, moon and stars antisemitic for existing.

We get it. You don't care about anti-semitism if it comes from your side.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MaxQue on April 07, 2018, 05:41:01 PM
Well, if Israel wants to kills cilivians, they're allowed to. However, don't dare ask for the West support in any measure.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Angel of Death on April 07, 2018, 06:00:37 PM
How bad the situation with respect to Gaza is, what I frankly find more interesting at the moment is the fact that Israeli officials are themselves now stating that there is rough demographic parity in historical Palestine.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on April 07, 2018, 06:15:47 PM
So, uh, just to be clear, there was clearly some sort of organized decision to troll this thread today, given how many of this board's worst elements just spontaneously decided to show up here.

How very SJP of you.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Comrade Funk on April 07, 2018, 07:35:02 PM
So, uh, just to be clear, there was clearly some sort of organized decision to troll this thread today, given how many of this board's worst elements just spontaneously decided to show up here.

How very SJP of you.
To you any criticism of Israel is a conspiracy


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Aboa on April 07, 2018, 07:35:12 PM
So, uh, just to be clear, there was clearly some sort of organized decision to troll this thread today, given how many of this board's worst elements just spontaneously decided to show up here.

How very SJP of you.

Yes I'm sure it required coordinated effort from secret anti-zionist cabal to make those five (5) posts


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on April 07, 2018, 07:47:57 PM
Wow, you're totally proving me wrong, with more random people showing up to pick fights with the joos.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY on April 07, 2018, 07:54:08 PM
So, uh, just to be clear, there was clearly some sort of organized decision to troll this thread today, given how many of this board's worst elements just spontaneously decided to show up here.

How very SJP of you.

I don’t think people coming to the Israel thread after Israel fires on and kills peaceful protesters is some sort of organized trolling conspiracy.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on April 07, 2018, 07:57:49 PM
I bet you all think you're really clever. Hamas marches on the border fence, you all march on the Israel thread in solidarity.

Spoiler alert - Israel won, they'll continue winning, and your weak attempt at trolling won't change that any more than the Great Gaza tire fire will.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Comrade Funk on April 07, 2018, 07:59:59 PM
Welp. This guy is on to us and our coordinated conspiracy. What's are next course of action fellow Hamas members?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: dead0man on April 07, 2018, 10:19:42 PM
Go back to using European money and children to build tunnels?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: All Along The Watchtower on April 07, 2018, 10:58:26 PM
Go back to using European money and children to build tunnels?

Subtle.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on April 08, 2018, 08:32:53 AM
[snip]
For DavidB, Ray Goldfied, and others.
... et alors? I don't know how you could ever have gotten the impression that I would be particularly upset by seeing this? Remember: I'm not some hasbara parrot. I don't care about "PC". Those who behave aggressively around the contact line, like enemies, should expect a response. Of course, such a response was exactly what they were hoping for.

Well, if this becomes a tactic then we're gonna need to build a big, beautiful, powerful wall, and we'll have a large, beautiful door so that we can come in whenever we need to stop them from firing rockets at our civilians.
Wise words, brother.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: All Along The Watchtower on April 08, 2018, 02:55:05 PM
Yes DavidB, unarmed journalists are enemies. Just as all Palestinian dissidents (I'm sorry, "terrorists") and their allies or sympathizers are, right? Because of the constant threat of "Hamas" or whatever bogeyman that the pariah state of the world (outside of the US) that deserves its pariah status conjures up.

Nice to see you reveal your true colors. You don't even live in Israel, but I can't help but suspect that you'd gladly rat out any Jew in Europe or elsewhere to actual Nazis and fascists (like those who support Trump, or some of the far-Right in Europe) if it meant that Greater Israel would be purged of the Muslims and Arabs, or any Jew who doesn't get with the program of Zionist supremacy and Israeli state terrorism against the enemies that Israel routinely creates or emboldens for its own political purposes.

Fortunately here in the US, a majority of Jews still see through the likes of you. Maybe because we have a white supremacist supported by Nazis and Klansmen occupying our most powerful office? *shrug*


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: All Along The Watchtower on April 08, 2018, 02:55:35 PM
Hmm strange that so many people would post in the Israel thread the day after Israel murders a ton of people for no reason. Clearly this is a anti-jewish posters cabal and I do not have brain worms.

- Ray "Stay Gold" Goldfield

Clearly!


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on April 08, 2018, 02:59:45 PM
No discussion on Israel murdering unarmed protesters and journalists this week? Cool.

anyway I said to a friend a year ago that when Palestinians will march in their hundreds of thousands to the border it will be the end, we're not for from there. 

Well, if this becomes a tactic then we're gonna need to build a big, beautiful, powerful wall, and we'll have a large, beautiful door so that we can come in whenever we need to stop them from firing rockets at our civilians.
There is absolutely no way to build a wall there logistically without occupying the strip first. The IDF knows it and that’s why they respond harshly, if this goes on for another week we’ll see air strikes on Hamas power bases deep inside.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 08, 2018, 03:05:08 PM
Yes DavidB, unarmed journalists are enemies. Just are all Palestinian dissidents (I'm sorry, "terrorists") and their allies or sympathizers, right? Because of the constant threat of "Hamas" or whatever bogeyman that the pariah state of the world (outside of the US) that deserves its pariah status conjures up.


I'll ignore the ad hominem and strawmaning, and instead just point out that Israel has no sanctions on it, participates in all worldwide sports and culture events, and has diplomatic relations with every democratic nation. It enjoys strong support from countries outside of the US such as Canada, Germany and Australia, and has very good relations with other countries like Britain and France. If you're looking for a pariah, take a look east and see a nation where homosexuals are being executed (a nation the U.S. still made a deal with, which I support by the way). Also, these sorts of debates belong in Individual Politics because, as mentioned:

No discussion on Israel murdering unarmed protesters and journalists this week? Cool.
Well basically we use this threads for political discussions in the narrow sense.

Also:

No discussion on Israel murdering unarmed protesters and journalists this week? Cool.

anyway I said to a friend a year ago that when Palestinians will march in their hundreds of thousands to the border it will be the end, we're not for from there. 

Well, if this becomes a tactic then we're gonna need to build a big, beautiful, powerful wall, and we'll have a large, beautiful door so that we can come in whenever we need to stop them from firing rockets at our civilians.
There is absolutely no way to build a wall there logistically without occupying the strip first. The IDF knows it and that’s why they respond harshly, if this goes on for another week we’ll see air strikes on Hamas power bases deep inside.

Is there no way to just occupy a perimeter (which we seem to do every war anyway) around the border for the time of construction? I mean, how close are the population centers?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: warandwar on April 08, 2018, 09:46:56 PM
Quote
Press Release From the Office of Pharaoh on the Occasion of the Fifth Plague
This morning, as millions of law-abiding Egyptians were still shaking froglets and tadpoles from the folds of their robes, farmers in the Nile floodplains awoke to find their cattle dead. In a few weeks’ time, these farmers will have no milk to sell, no meat to eat, and no skins to tan. This is an unjustifiable attack on Egyptian agribusiness, and it betrays the Hebrews’ utter lack of investment in the emancipation process.
No doubt, critics the world over – most of them closeted anti-Nubians – will continue to condemn Egyptian policy in Goshen despite this clear case of Hebrew aggression. To those who accuse us of inadequate negotiation efforts with the Hebrews, we ask – who will be our negotiation partner? Will it be Moses? Leftist agitators praise his commitment to non-violence, but he is, in reality, an unelected religious fundamentalist who talks to shrubs and was forced to flee Egyptian territory under suspicion of murder. Will it be Yahweh? Even his followers admit he is unreasonable and quick to anger. LGBTQ+ folks enjoy complete freedom in Egypt, but Yahweh is well known for his brutal attacks on Sodom and Gomorrah. Will it be Miriam? She’s a girl. How can we negotiate with these people when they can’t elect real leadership?

Egypt has given the world writing, mathematics, air conditioning, papyrus, and “Papyrus.” What is the Hebrew contribution to world civilization? Circumcision? When Hebrews are injured on our worksites, are they not treated at Egyptian hospitals by Egyptian doctors? The Hebrews accuse us of discrimination, but ask them to point out one Semitic country that has had an Egyptian as viceroy. They demand to “return” to “their land” – brandish at us the keys to their huts back in Shiloh and Gibeah – but every scholar acknowledges that a Hebrew return to that territory would bring about the swift collapse of the world’s only Canaanite state.

Students of history will remember that it was the Hebrews who came to us Egyptians begging for wheat, not the other way around. After months of attacks on our civilians, it should be clear to the whole world that peace will only come when the Hebrews love their children more than they hate our cattle.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on April 08, 2018, 09:49:42 PM
Anti-Zionists are totes not anti-semitic at all, youse guise.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: publicunofficial on April 08, 2018, 10:08:06 PM
Amazing what you can get away with when you basically force all your undesirables into a tiny area they can't leave, and declare everyone inside that area a member of Hamas.

Have you people seen the videos of Israeli soldiers kicking the injured off of gurneys, pointing their rifles at desperate medics? Israel is a nation of murderers.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on April 08, 2018, 10:39:49 PM
There's nothing to fear from the radical left at all, youse guise. They totes don't just make up whatever they want to demonize Jews.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: warandwar on April 08, 2018, 10:52:28 PM
Anti-Zionists are totes not anti-semitic at all, youse guise.
I'm Jewish.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on April 08, 2018, 11:13:59 PM

Oh, right, you're the Jewdas fan. You do you, I guess.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Frozen Sky Ever Why on April 08, 2018, 11:17:17 PM
Israelis and Jews are not the same thing. Israel is just a country, not a religion or an ethnicity, no matter how much it or it's supporters pretend it is.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on April 08, 2018, 11:27:49 PM
And we'll believe you when diaspora Jews stop being targeted by "anti-zionists" because Israel.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Yelnoc on April 08, 2018, 11:52:35 PM
Anti-Zionists are totes not anti-semitic at all, youse guise.

True


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: The Mikado on April 08, 2018, 11:56:37 PM
It takes a very special kind of person to look at unarmed protesters and journalists(!) shot in cold blood by heavily-armed soldiers and view any sort of sympathy for the protesters as anti-Semitism.

People who are pointing out that IDF's recent war crimes aren't OK behavior aren't anti-Semites for doing so.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: GoTfan on April 09, 2018, 12:01:49 AM
And we'll believe you when diaspora Jews stop being targeted by "anti-zionists" because Israel.

And we'll believe you when you stop saying any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: warandwar on April 09, 2018, 12:21:31 AM
And we'll believe you when diaspora Jews stop being targeted by "anti-zionists" because Israel.

I'm glad you have so much concern for the well being of the diaspora! Maybe you should stop belittling those of us in the diaspora who are anti-Zionist! The whole "good jew, bad jew" routine is really tiring on both sides...


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on April 09, 2018, 12:45:02 AM
And we'll believe you when diaspora Jews stop being targeted by "anti-zionists" because Israel.

I don't see how diaspora Jews being targeted proves anti-Zionist are anti-Semites if the diaspora Jews in question are loudly Zionist (as many including yourself are).

If anti-Zionist Jewish organizations were being targeted by anti-Zionist groups, now THAT would be evidence that their problem was with Jews in general but that's not a widespread trend.

Now, I'm not saying anti-Zionism is a good take in opinion, merely that doesn't suggest a categorical hatred of Jews. I myself support Zionism both because of my Jewish roots and my favorability towards nationalism in general. I think anti-Zionism is dumb but I don't think it's anti-Jewish.

Jews who claim anti-Zionism is inherently anti-Semitic make themselves look either disingenuous or hysterical or both.

You're never going to convince people that being pro-Israel is the liberal, enlightened, anti-racist stance to take. Because it's simply not true.

If you support Israel, you support Israel because you like nationalism and you don't want your cultural homeland to be demographically swamped by a different ethnic group. Just own it, it's a fine and defensible position.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 09, 2018, 12:47:29 AM
Quote
Press Release From the Office of Pharaoh on the Occasion of the Fifth Plague
This morning, as millions of law-abiding Egyptians were still shaking froglets and tadpoles from the folds of their robes, farmers in the Nile floodplains awoke to find their cattle dead. In a few weeks’ time, these farmers will have no milk to sell, no meat to eat, and no skins to tan. This is an unjustifiable attack on Egyptian agribusiness, and it betrays the Hebrews’ utter lack of investment in the emancipation process.
No doubt, critics the world over – most of them closeted anti-Nubians – will continue to condemn Egyptian policy in Goshen despite this clear case of Hebrew aggression. To those who accuse us of inadequate negotiation efforts with the Hebrews, we ask – who will be our negotiation partner? Will it be Moses? Leftist agitators praise his commitment to non-violence, but he is, in reality, an unelected religious fundamentalist who talks to shrubs and was forced to flee Egyptian territory under suspicion of murder. Will it be Yahweh? Even his followers admit he is unreasonable and quick to anger. LGBTQ+ folks enjoy complete freedom in Egypt, but Yahweh is well known for his brutal attacks on Sodom and Gomorrah. Will it be Miriam? She’s a girl. How can we negotiate with these people when they can’t elect real leadership?

Egypt has given the world writing, mathematics, air conditioning, papyrus, and “Papyrus.” What is the Hebrew contribution to world civilization? Circumcision? When Hebrews are injured on our worksites, are they not treated at Egyptian hospitals by Egyptian doctors? The Hebrews accuse us of discrimination, but ask them to point out one Semitic country that has had an Egyptian as viceroy. They demand to “return” to “their land” – brandish at us the keys to their huts back in Shiloh and Gibeah – but every scholar acknowledges that a Hebrew return to that territory would bring about the swift collapse of the world’s only Canaanite state.

Students of history will remember that it was the Hebrews who came to us Egyptians begging for wheat, not the other way around. After months of attacks on our civilians, it should be clear to the whole world that peace will only come when the Hebrews love their children more than they hate our cattle.

Can you all just please stop derailing this thread? This thread is for Israeli politics, you can open a thread in Individual Politics and recite Al Jazeera\Hamas talking points all you want. I mean, several posters here have been repeatedly trying to argue logically with you and you just choose to ignore it and keep spewing your BS, so excuse us if we just ask you to go away and let us discuss internal politics in peace.

Edit: Famouse Mortimer, zionists honestly don't need this racist bearhug, lol. Most of us aren't racist and believe in democracy, your taking us all into your ultra-nationalist camp doesn't help.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on April 09, 2018, 12:51:06 AM
You believe in borders and controlling who can cross them. So you are already viewed as a racist by all liberal non-Jews. If you think otherwise, you are delusional.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: OSR stands with Israel on April 09, 2018, 12:52:57 AM
The far left(the far left mainly not the mainstream left ) hates Israel for two reasons

Either they are Anti-Semitic or they are anti American and hate any side of a conflict the US has allied it self with .


There are many examples proving both


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: OSR stands with Israel on April 09, 2018, 12:54:04 AM
You believe in borders and controlling who can cross them. So you are already viewed as a racist by all liberal non-Jews. If you think otherwise, you are delusional.

Except Israel is not trying to ban immigration its trying to stop an invasion





Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on April 09, 2018, 12:57:30 AM
You believe in borders and controlling who can cross them. So you are already viewed as a racist by all liberal non-Jews. If you think otherwise, you are delusional.

Except Israel is not trying to ban immigration its trying to stop an invasion


The difference is purely semantic. I'm sure Palestinians would be more than happy to immigrate to Israel, get citizenship, and then vote the country out of existence through completely peaceful, democratic, internationally sanctioned means if they were allowed to do so.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: OSR stands with Israel on April 09, 2018, 01:03:58 AM
You believe in borders and controlling who can cross them. So you are already viewed as a racist by all liberal non-Jews. If you think otherwise, you are delusional.

Except Israel is not trying to ban immigration its trying to stop an invasion


The difference is purely semantic. I'm sure Palestinians would be more than happy to immigrate to Israel, get citizenship, and then vote the country out of existence through completely peaceful, democratic, internationally sanctioned means if they were allowed to do so.

Except the vast majority of immigrants are law biding people and are loyal to the US .


By the way the people who moved the US left on Social Issues or Cultural issues were not immigrants (the US moved pretty far to the left on those issues in the 1960s and 1970s which was before immigrants started being a factor in elections and since then has swung right and left in cycles).

So please stop with this BS


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on April 09, 2018, 01:42:37 AM
You believe in borders and controlling who can cross them. So you are already viewed as a racist by all liberal non-Jews. If you think otherwise, you are delusional.

Except Israel is not trying to ban immigration its trying to stop an invasion


The difference is purely semantic. I'm sure Palestinians would be more than happy to immigrate to Israel, get citizenship, and then vote the country out of existence through completely peaceful, democratic, internationally sanctioned means if they were allowed to do so.

Except the vast majority of immigrants are law biding people and are loyal to the US .


Would you be okay with immigrants to the United States having to pledge their loyalty to the idea of the United States as a country for people of European descent? I suspect not.

That's basically what people have to do to be considered loyal to Israel.

You're going to say "but Israel is different! Israel for Jews and the US is for everyone!"

Yes, you're right, Israel is different and it is primarily for the Jews. That's why it is fundamentally against the current liberal world order to back Israel.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on April 09, 2018, 02:49:32 AM
Yes DavidB, unarmed journalists are enemies. Just are all Palestinian dissidents (I'm sorry, "terrorists") and their allies or sympathizers, right? Because of the constant threat of "Hamas" or whatever bogeyman that the pariah state of the world (outside of the US) that deserves its pariah status conjures up.


I'll ignore the ad hominem and strawmaning, and instead just point out that Israel has no sanctions on it, participates in all worldwide sports and culture events, and has diplomatic relations with every democratic nation. It enjoys strong support from countries outside of the US such as Canada, Germany and Australia, and has very good relations with other countries like Britain and France. If you're looking for a pariah, take a look east and see a nation where homosexuals are being executed (a nation the U.S. still made a deal with, which I support by the way). Also, these sorts of debates belong in Individual Politics because, as mentioned:

No discussion on Israel murdering unarmed protesters and journalists this week? Cool.
Well basically we use this threads for political discussions in the narrow sense.

Also:

No discussion on Israel murdering unarmed protesters and journalists this week? Cool.

anyway I said to a friend a year ago that when Palestinians will march in their hundreds of thousands to the border it will be the end, we're not for from there. 

Well, if this becomes a tactic then we're gonna need to build a big, beautiful, powerful wall, and we'll have a large, beautiful door so that we can come in whenever we need to stop them from firing rockets at our civilians.
There is absolutely no way to build a wall there logistically without occupying the strip first. The IDF knows it and that’s why they respond harshly, if this goes on for another week we’ll see air strikes on Hamas power bases deep inside.

Is there no way to just occupy a perimeter (which we seem to do every war anyway) around the border for the time of construction? I mean, how close are the population centers?
No. Building takes several months and in that time workers and equipment will be sitting ducks (you won’t find many who’ll agree to work like that), a single sniper can delay work by days at each section.
Population centers are either almost on it (in the northern part) or 1-2 miles from it in the south.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Gustaf on April 09, 2018, 05:38:50 AM
Guys, chill. I know this is an emotional topic for many (myself not excluded) but the primary purpose of those threads is to analyze and discuss political developments not flame-war. You can go to Individual Politics to shout at each other (I thankfully don't moderate that one :P ).




Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: #TheShadowyAbyss on April 10, 2018, 07:26:14 PM
I normally don't post here because I don't want it to lead to flame wars as I am of Palestinian and have a Pro-Palestine origin, but Famous Mortimer needs to stop generalizing us. A large % of us would rather just have the conflict end peacefully, when conflict results (example the current Land Day protests), it infuriates people on both sides (I am not immune from this either as I had a bad outburst recently), and I think my people are not doing a great job pushing for peace either.

But the ad hominem and inane comments being thrown around here aren't productive for conversation either.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on April 10, 2018, 09:22:02 PM
I normally don't post here because I don't want it to lead to flame wars as I am of Palestinian and have a Pro-Palestine origin, but Famous Mortimer needs to stop generalizing us. A large % of us would rather just have the conflict end peacefully, when conflict results (example the current Land Day protests), it infuriates people on both sides (I am not immune from this either as I had a bad outburst recently), and I think my people are not doing a great job pushing for peace either.

But the ad hominem and inane comments being thrown around here aren't productive for conversation either.

1) It's impossible to talk about politics without making generalizations. Let's be adults. When I or anyone else says "the Palestinians [blank]" or "the Israelis [blank]" or even "the Americans [blank]" OBVIOUSLY we're not saying "every single Palestinian"/"every single Israeli"/"every single American". So when you chime in with "well not every single person" you don't make yourself look smart, you make yourself look like a pedant who doesn't understand how normal people talk. People should be sophisticated enough to discuss politics without having to preface every sentence with "obviously not every single member of this group believes this". It should just go without saying. Again, if you're not intellectually sophisticated enough to handle that, you aren't intellectually sophisticated enough to talk about politics at all.

2) That said, the only generalization I made about Palestinians in this thread was that they would happily pursue a one state solution through peaceful democratic means if given the opportunity. So I don't know why you're criticizing me for claiming that all Palestinians are violent, since I didn't say that, I literally said the opposite. I assume you are just criticizing me because it's what people on this board automatically do when they don't have actual points to make.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan on April 20, 2018, 07:06:55 AM
I don't want to start new thread but Romania decided to move its embassy in Israel to Jerusalem.


https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/report-romania-to-breaks-ranks-with-eu-by-moving-embassy-to-jerusalem/?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1524206870


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: publicunofficial on April 20, 2018, 08:58:54 AM


Noted anti-semite Natalie Portman.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on April 20, 2018, 10:52:01 AM
I don't want to start new thread but Romania decided to move its embassy in Israel to Jerusalem.


https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/report-romania-to-breaks-ranks-with-eu-by-moving-embassy-to-jerusalem/?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1524206870
Pretty sure they clarified it will be happen once a deal for 2SS is struck.



Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on April 26, 2018, 03:48:32 PM
The hero conscientious objector Matam Hellman released from military service after 110 days in jail.
I hope that more young people like Hellman will refuse to join the IDF and to take part in the occupation.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 26, 2018, 04:22:21 PM
The hero conscientious objector Matam Hellman released from military service after 110 days in jail.
I hope that more young people like Hellman will refuse to join the IDF and to take part in the occupation.

Good for him, a military jail isn't a great experience. The IDF should relax its conscience committees.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on April 26, 2018, 10:32:07 PM
The hero conscientious objector Matam Hellman released from military service after 110 days in jail.
I hope that more young people like Hellman will refuse to join the IDF and to take part in the occupation.
They should be jailed exactly as long as their less cowardly compatriots serve.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on April 27, 2018, 05:07:24 AM
The hero conscientious objector Matam Hellman released from military service after 110 days in jail.
I hope that more young people like Hellman will refuse to join the IDF and to take part in the occupation.

Good for him, a military jail isn't a great experience. The IDF should relax its conscience committees.
Israel should abolish mandatory conscription


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: The Mikado on April 27, 2018, 08:15:09 PM
Conscription is a barbaric restriction of human liberty and turns young people into tools of the state regardless of their personal opinions or desires, and are one of the most coercive abuses of state power there is. Military service should be a matter of personal choice.

EDIT: Thought better of some of my word choice.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on April 27, 2018, 10:31:36 PM
I find Israel's universal conscription more justifiable than most due to the conditions it began under, but I also think its time has largely passed with the advent of a technology-driven military.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MaxQue on April 27, 2018, 11:13:59 PM
I find Israel's universal conscription more justifiable than most due to the conditions it began under, but I also think its time has largely passed with the advent of a technology-driven military.

Despite being anti-conscription, given Israel is pretty much in a permanent war given its nieghbours, conscription is totally justifiable. The only issue is than it's not universal.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 28, 2018, 04:49:24 AM
I find Israel's universal conscription more justifiable than most due to the conditions it began under, but I also think its time has largely passed with the advent of a technology-driven military.

Despite being anti-conscription, given Israel is pretty much in a permanent war given its nieghbours, conscription is totally justifiable. The only issue is than it's not universal.

This - I believe that Israel should move to a professinal army at some point in the future, but it should be gradual and it's not the time yet.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on April 28, 2018, 09:01:06 AM
MK Oded Forer from the corrupt Yisrael Beytenu Party want to impeach MK Haneen Zoabi.
According to the undemocratic impeachment bill 90 MK's are needed to impeach another MK.
Coward Lapid support it,Ofer Shelah is against.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 28, 2018, 09:04:16 AM
MK Oded Forer from the corrupt Yisrael Beytenu Party want to impeach MK Haneen Zoabi.
According to the undemocratic impeachment law 90 MK's are needed to impeach another MK.
Coward Lapid support it,Ofer Shelah is against.

I like your lack of moral judgement when reporting news :P
(But hey, it's not like we don't have papers like Yisrael Hayom in Israel so it's fine)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on April 28, 2018, 09:09:34 AM
MK Oded Forer from the corrupt Yisrael Beytenu Party want to impeach MK Haneen Zoabi.
According to the undemocratic impeachment law 90 MK's are needed to impeach another MK.
Coward Lapid support it,Ofer Shelah is against.

I like your lack of moral judgement when reporting news :P
(But hey, it's not like we don't have papers like Yisrael Hayom in Israel so it's fine)
Don't forget Channel 20.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on April 28, 2018, 09:34:42 AM
Why would Yisrael Beiteinu be corrupt?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 28, 2018, 11:49:42 AM
Why would Yisrael Beiteinu be corrupt?

()

(Israeli posters will understand)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on April 28, 2018, 11:54:35 AM
Why would Yisrael Beiteinu be corrupt?
numerous corruption allegations related to the party mechanism and municipal branches. A Chairman that escaped conviction oמ very shaky grounds and still hadn't explained half a million dollars that just popped into his daughters bank account. Numerous former MKs heading to jail on corruption charges.

There has never been and never will be 90 MKs who'll support impeachment without any criminal charges. And it will definitely not pass the supreme court that tends to look away from inner house processes but has its limits.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on April 28, 2018, 03:28:09 PM
Why would Yisrael Beiteinu be corrupt?
numerous corruption allegations related to the party mechanism and municipal branches. A Chairman that escaped conviction oמ very shaky grounds and still hadn't explained half a million dollars that just popped into his daughters bank account. Numerous former MKs heading to jail on corruption charges.

There has never been and never will be 90 MKs who'll support impeachment without any criminal charges. And it will definitely not pass the supreme court that tends to look away from inner house processes but has its limits.
Few MK's Labour arleady supported the impeachment bill against Basel Ghattas.
And i wouldn't be surprised if phony Gabbay will support it either.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 28, 2018, 03:35:08 PM
Why would Yisrael Beiteinu be corrupt?
numerous corruption allegations related to the party mechanism and municipal branches. A Chairman that escaped conviction oמ very shaky grounds and still hadn't explained half a million dollars that just popped into his daughters bank account. Numerous former MKs heading to jail on corruption charges.

There has never been and never will be 90 MKs who'll support impeachment without any criminal charges. And it will definitely not pass the supreme court that tends to look away from inner house processes but has its limits.
Few NK's Labour arleady supported the impeachment bill against Basel Ghattas.
And i wouldn't be surprised if phony Gabbay will support it either.


You do remember that Ghattas had criminal charges against him, right?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on April 28, 2018, 03:39:54 PM
Why would Yisrael Beiteinu be corrupt?
numerous corruption allegations related to the party mechanism and municipal branches. A Chairman that escaped conviction oמ very shaky grounds and still hadn't explained half a million dollars that just popped into his daughters bank account. Numerous former MKs heading to jail on corruption charges.

There has never been and never will be 90 MKs who'll support impeachment without any criminal charges. And it will definitely not pass the supreme court that tends to look away from inner house processes but has its limits.
Few NK's Labour arleady supported the impeachment bill against Basel Ghattas.
And i wouldn't be surprised if phony Gabbay will support it either.


You do remember that Ghattas had criminal charges against him, right?
Netanyahu is also faces a criminal charges and i don't see someone want to impeach him.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 28, 2018, 03:43:53 PM
Why would Yisrael Beiteinu be corrupt?
numerous corruption allegations related to the party mechanism and municipal branches. A Chairman that escaped conviction oמ very shaky grounds and still hadn't explained half a million dollars that just popped into his daughters bank account. Numerous former MKs heading to jail on corruption charges.

There has never been and never will be 90 MKs who'll support impeachment without any criminal charges. And it will definitely not pass the supreme court that tends to look away from inner house processes but has its limits.
Few NK's Labour arleady supported the impeachment bill against Basel Ghattas.
And i wouldn't be surprised if phony Gabbay will support it either.


You do remember that Ghattas had criminal charges against him, right?
Netanyahu is also face a criminal charges and i don't see someone want to impeach him.

This is irrelevant. Netanyahu is not yet convicted of any crime and evidence is not 100% clear. Ghattas was literally filmed smuggling phones into a prison.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on April 28, 2018, 03:49:47 PM
Why would Yisrael Beiteinu be corrupt?
numerous corruption allegations related to the party mechanism and municipal branches. A Chairman that escaped conviction oמ very shaky grounds and still hadn't explained half a million dollars that just popped into his daughters bank account. Numerous former MKs heading to jail on corruption charges.

There has never been and never will be 90 MKs who'll support impeachment without any criminal charges. And it will definitely not pass the supreme court that tends to look away from inner house processes but has its limits.
Few NK's Labour arleady supported the impeachment bill against Basel Ghattas.
And i wouldn't be surprised if phony Gabbay will support it either.


You do remember that Ghattas had criminal charges against him, right?
Netanyahu is also face a criminal charges and i don't see someone want to impeach him.

This is irrelevant. Netanyahu is not yet convicted of any crime and evidence is not 100% clear. Ghattas was literally filmed smuggling phones into a prison.
What about the recordings in case 2000?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on April 28, 2018, 03:52:57 PM
Why would Yisrael Beiteinu be corrupt?
numerous corruption allegations related to the party mechanism and municipal branches. A Chairman that escaped conviction oמ very shaky grounds and still hadn't explained half a million dollars that just popped into his daughters bank account. Numerous former MKs heading to jail on corruption charges.

There has never been and never will be 90 MKs who'll support impeachment without any criminal charges. And it will definitely not pass the supreme court that tends to look away from inner house processes but has its limits.
Few NK's Labour arleady supported the impeachment bill against Basel Ghattas.
And i wouldn't be surprised if phony Gabbay will support it either.


You do remember that Ghattas had criminal charges against him, right?
Netanyahu is also face a criminal charges and i don't see someone want to impeach him.

This is irrelevant. Netanyahu is not yet convicted of any crime and evidence is not 100% clear. Ghattas was literally filmed smuggling phones into a prison.
What about the recordings in case 2000?

...I'm not saying Bibi is not guilty. You know I don't like him one bit. But even with the recordings and all the other overwhelming evidence, there's no 100% way of saying "he did a crime" without judicial conviction. Ghattas was filmed doing a crime, so there was a reason he was arrested immediately after the Knesset revoked his immunity.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on April 28, 2018, 04:01:23 PM
Why would Yisrael Beiteinu be corrupt?
numerous corruption allegations related to the party mechanism and municipal branches. A Chairman that escaped conviction oמ very shaky grounds and still hadn't explained half a million dollars that just popped into his daughters bank account. Numerous former MKs heading to jail on corruption charges.

There has never been and never will be 90 MKs who'll support impeachment without any criminal charges. And it will definitely not pass the supreme court that tends to look away from inner house processes but has its limits.
Few NK's Labour arleady supported the impeachment bill against Basel Ghattas.
And i wouldn't be surprised if phony Gabbay will support it either.


You do remember that Ghattas had criminal charges against him, right?
Netanyahu is also face a criminal charges and i don't see someone want to impeach him.

This is irrelevant. Netanyahu is not yet convicted of any crime and evidence is not 100% clear. Ghattas was literally filmed smuggling phones into a prison.
What about the recordings in case 2000?

...I'm not saying Bibi is not guilty. You know I don't like him one bit. But even with the recordings and all the other overwhelming evidence, there's no 100% way of saying "he did a crime" without judicial conviction. Ghattas was filmed doing a crime, so there was a reason he was arrested immediately after the Knesset revoked his immunity.
And still the impeachment bill is undemocratic and should not be used in any case.
All the Labour's MK that supported it lost my vote in the primary.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: NewYorkExpress on April 30, 2018, 05:28:24 PM
https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/saudi-prince-palestinians-should-shut-up-or-make-peace-1.6036624 (https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/saudi-prince-palestinians-should-shut-up-or-make-peace-1.6036624)

Quote
The crown prince of Saudi Arabia reportedly harshly criticized Palestinian leadership during a meeting with American Jewish organizations in New York last month, slamming Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas for rejecting peace offers.

“In the last several decades the Palestinian leadership has missed one opportunity after the other and rejected all the peace proposals it was given,” Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman told the Jewish organizations, Barak Ravid of Israel’s Channel 10 reported Sunday for Axios. “It is about time the Palestinians take the proposals and agree to come to the negotiations table or shut up and stop complaining.”

I wonder if there's a chance Netanyahu will start negotiating an official peace deal with the Saudis... as officially Israel has yet to make peace with the Saudis...


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: NewYorkExpress on May 07, 2018, 11:29:33 AM
https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Culture/Japanese-PM-Abe-served-offensive-shoe-dessert-at-Netanyahu-dinner-553671 (https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Culture/Japanese-PM-Abe-served-offensive-shoe-dessert-at-Netanyahu-dinner-553671)


Quote
When Japanese leader Shinzo Abe and his wife dined with Benjamin and Sara Netanyahu at the Prime Minister’s Residence on May 2 during Abe’s second official visit to Israel, they finished their gourmet meal with a kicker of a dessert.

Israeli celebrity chef Moshe Segev, better known as Segev Moshe, the prime minister’s private chef, capped the elaborate dinner with a selection of chocolates served in a metal shoe, which is considered highly offensive in Japanese culture.

While Abe took the unusual presentation in stride, Japanese and Israeli diplomats and Japan-watchers were shocked that the Japanese Prime Minister would be served from a shoe.

“This was a stupid and insensitive decision,” a senior Israeli diplomat who had previously served in Japan told Yediot Aharonot.


“There is nothing more despised in Japanese culture than shoes. Not only do they not enter their houses while wearing shoes, you will not find shoes in their offices either. Even the prime minister, ministers and members of parliament do not wear shoes to work... It is equivalent to serving a Jewish guest chocolates in a dish shaped like a pig.”

“No culture puts shoes on the table,” a Japanese diplomat told Yediot. “What precisely was this illustrious chef Segev thinking?

If this is meant to be humor, we do not find it funny. I can tell you that we are offended for our prime minister,” the diplomat said.

And here's a photograph of the offending dessert:

()


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on May 08, 2018, 02:57:40 AM
Our leadership is so unhinged and stupid that they let the dumb celebrities surrounding and fawning over Bibi shame us across the world. It's time for a figurative purge, especially in our currently disgusting leading party- I'd be glad if 90% of the Likud just goes away and lets us start anew.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on May 08, 2018, 05:06:34 AM
Our leadership is so unhinged and stupid that they let the dumb celebrities surrounding and fawning over Bibi shame us across the world. It's time for a figurative purge, especially in our currently disgusting leading party- I'd be glad if 90% of the Likud just goes away and lets us start anew.
Woke.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on May 08, 2018, 08:25:22 AM
Our leadership is so unhinged and stupid that they let the dumb celebrities surrounding and fawning over Bibi shame us across the world. It's time for a figurative purge, especially in our currently disgusting leading party- I'd be glad if 90% of the Likud just goes away and lets us start anew.
Woke.

I'm not woke in almost any way- just tired of the sheer incompetence and terrible populism of our leading party :P


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Boobs on May 12, 2018, 06:28:26 PM
Netanyahu and Likud getting a boost from Trump's Iran Deal decision. Bleh. I was hoping I'd get to see a left-wing government this decade, I guess not.

At least one good thing, though; if Levy-Abekasis and her party continue to rise, Liberman and his goons may fall below the threshold. Hopefully she refuses to work with Netayahu.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on May 12, 2018, 11:43:26 PM
Netanyahu and Likud getting a boost from Trump's Iran Deal decision. Bleh. I was hoping I'd get to see a left-wing government this decade, I guess not.

At least one good thing, though; if Levy-Abekasis and her party continue to rise, Liberman and his goons may fall below the threshold. Hopefully she refuses to work with Netayahu.

Heh, unlikely. My only hope is that Netanyahu gets indicted and his spell gets broken.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on May 13, 2018, 12:17:40 AM
Netanyahu and Likud getting a boost from Trump's Iran Deal decision. Bleh. I was hoping I'd get to see a left-wing government this decade, I guess not.

At least one good thing, though; if Levy-Abekasis and her party continue to rise, Liberman and his goons may fall below the threshold. Hopefully she refuses to work with Netayahu.

Heh, unlikely. My only hope is that Netanyahu gets indicted and his spell gets broken.

Levy seems pretty (or vaguely) left-wing on economics – I wonder if she may find herself more keen to ally with ZU than Likud.

Of course, I'm not holding out hope for this :( .

Well, her party isn't very different than Lapid's (pre-falling out with Bibi) or Kahlon's- they'd work with any of the major parties if that gave them power.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on May 13, 2018, 10:04:29 AM
Anyway, so you've won Eurovision. I see the BDS Brigade aren't happy.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SNJ1985 on May 13, 2018, 04:17:35 PM
Israeli football club renames itself in honor of Trump:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/jerusalem-soccer-team-to-be-renamed-beitar-trump/ (https://www.timesofisrael.com/jerusalem-soccer-team-to-be-renamed-beitar-trump/)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 14, 2018, 03:48:17 PM
Bibi should really gallop for an early election. Lapid is falling to bits, Gabay is uncertain on what he needs to do, his poll position is an all time pick (not since Sharon did Likud poll so highly). and he caan get a renewed mandate before any indictment (not to mention maintain a weakened Bennet and Liberman)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on May 14, 2018, 03:55:44 PM
This has probably been explained already, but who exactly does Orly Levy represent? Is she just Lieberman rebooted?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on May 16, 2018, 09:06:25 AM
Bibi should really gallop for an early election. Lapid is falling to bits, Gabay is uncertain on what he needs to do, his poll position is an all time pick (not since Sharon did Likud poll so highly). and he caan get a renewed mandate before any indictment (not to mention maintain a weakened Bennet and Liberman)
So which pollsters are better and which ones are worse? They were pretty good in 2015, I recall (of course tactical voting happened but you can't blame pollsters for it), but I still haven't figured this out.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on May 16, 2018, 09:20:08 AM
This has probably been explained already, but who exactly does Orly Levy represent? Is she just Lieberman rebooted?

No, not really. Lieberman's brand is Putin-esque strongmanship appealing to Russians and right-wingers, Levy's brand is of a compassionate social-democrat who only cares about economic issues while being a bland centrist on all other issues. She'd cooperate with anyone.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: OSR stands with Israel on May 16, 2018, 06:49:51 PM
I have a question, if Israel used FPTP do you think Bibi would still be PM or would he be defeated . Also how do you think the next election with FPTP would go


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on May 16, 2018, 09:34:30 PM
I have a question, if Israel used FPTP do you think Bibi would still be PM or would he be defeated . Also how do you think the next election with FPTP would go

On current polls it's hard to see Bibi losing under any system, but in general it would depends on which parties would run and which parties would merge.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on May 17, 2018, 10:11:21 AM
I have a question, if Israel used FPTP do you think Bibi would still be PM or would he be defeated . Also how do you think the next election with FPTP would go
Really a matter of who does the gerrymandering. But it will benefit Labour as they could get more seats from the rural seats and squeeze out YA and Meretz in a lot of places. But Israel is already very much divided population-on-land wise so I don’t suppose it will change that much part for a bump to Likud and Labour


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Frodo on May 17, 2018, 10:23:29 AM
Does anyone know why Israel's birthrate is the highest (and still rising) in the developed world? 


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Boobs on May 17, 2018, 10:51:34 AM
Does anyone know why Israel's birthrate is the highest (and still rising) in the developed world? 

There are relatively higher birth rates among Israeli Arabs and very high birth rates among Haredim.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on May 17, 2018, 11:02:37 AM
Does anyone know why Israel's birthrate is the highest (and still rising) in the developed world?  

There are relatively higher birth rates among Israeli Arabs and very high birth rates among Haredim.

It's definitely a factor (and also a huge demographic problem, especially the Haredim, my opinion of whom is well-known), but not the only factor. If I remember correctly, the birthrates amongst completely secular Jewish couples are also comparably high, standing at something like 3 children. Why? I don't know, perhaps it's a psychological reason of Jewish fear of extinction, or the "pls reproduce" part of the Jewish religion influencing society? Maybe the fact that many secular Jews originate in Muslim-majority or just generally conservative societies? Idk.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on May 17, 2018, 11:05:04 AM
Statistics about birth rates in Israel are always iffy because they are so politically charged, but I found this article (https://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/2018/05/israels-demographic-miracle/) to be quite informative. It's definitely not just Arabs and Haredim (whose birthrate has actually declined over the previous decades, rapidly in the first case).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Boobs on May 17, 2018, 11:21:45 AM
Statistics about birth rates in Israel are always iffy because they are so politically charged, but I found this article (https://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/2018/05/israels-demographic-miracle/) to be quite informative. It's definitely not just Arabs and Haredim (whose birthrate has actually declined over the previous decades, rapidly in the first case).

Thanks for this – it's a great article.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DC Al Fine on May 17, 2018, 01:25:00 PM
Statistics about birth rates in Israel are always iffy because they are so politically charged, but I found this article (https://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/2018/05/israels-demographic-miracle/) to be quite informative. It's definitely not just Arabs and Haredim (whose birthrate has actually declined over the previous decades, rapidly in the first case).

Thanks for this – it's a great article.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on May 17, 2018, 01:29:41 PM
Statistics about birth rates in Israel are always iffy because they are so politically charged, but I found this article (https://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/2018/05/israels-demographic-miracle/) to be quite informative. It's definitely not just Arabs and Haredim (whose birthrate has actually declined over the previous decades, rapidly in the first case).

This is a very good article, though with all the interesting information it brings, it fails to acknowledge the fact that, with all that, a 2-state solution is still necessary because the existence of millions of Palestinians in the West Bank is not a demographic prediction- it's the situation right now. If we were to annex them like our right-wing wants, there would be no decisive Jewish majority.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on May 17, 2018, 08:15:34 PM
Statistics about birth rates in Israel are always iffy because they are so politically charged, but I found this article (https://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/2018/05/israels-demographic-miracle/) to be quite informative. It's definitely not just Arabs and Haredim (whose birthrate has actually declined over the previous decades, rapidly in the first case).

This is a very good article, though with all the interesting information it brings, it fails to acknowledge the fact that, with all that, a 2-state solution is still necessary because the existence of millions of Palestinians in the West Bank is not a demographic prediction- it's the situation right now. If we were to annex them like our right-wing wants, there would be no decisive Jewish majority.

What the Israeli right wing appears to want is to make the Palestinians on the West Bank so miserable that they'll leave.  A soft ethnic cleansing rather than a hard one seems to be their goal based on what they do. 


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on May 18, 2018, 04:24:53 AM
The historical fact is that minorities always get discriminated against.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: EPG on May 21, 2018, 07:57:00 PM
Statistics about birth rates in Israel are always iffy because they are so politically charged, but I found this article (https://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/2018/05/israels-demographic-miracle/) to be quite informative. It's definitely not just Arabs and Haredim (whose birthrate has actually declined over the previous decades, rapidly in the first case).

tl;dr Arab stats of course lie but Israeli stats of course don't; the government funds endless fertility treatment and unlike in silly Europe, Israel can take land from other countries if they run out.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on May 21, 2018, 08:21:24 PM
Statistics about birth rates in Israel are always iffy because they are so politically charged, but I found this article (https://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/2018/05/israels-demographic-miracle/) to be quite informative. It's definitely not just Arabs and Haredim (whose birthrate has actually declined over the previous decades, rapidly in the first case).
tl;dr Arab stats of course lie but Israeli stats of course don't; the government funds endless fertility treatment and unlike in silly Europe, Israel can take land from other countries if they run out.
It is indeed clear that you "dr" it if you think this is what the article said; either that, or your reading comprehension skills are incredibly poor. It is especially amazing how you claim I (or the article) says that "Israeli stats of course don't [lie]" when I point out in my own post that "statistics about birth rates in Israel are always iffy." Obviously the last part of your post is a blatant lie too, but don't let facts get in the way of your antisemitism I guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: EPG on May 21, 2018, 08:38:37 PM
You were correct to raise the issues with fertility rates, and the article should have noted likewise.

You need to get real if you don't think much about the role of settlements in Israel life.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on May 21, 2018, 08:45:06 PM
Yeah, I know nothing about the settlements. Never been there, never stayed there, never spent any time there...

Begone, troll.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: warandwar on May 25, 2018, 11:35:06 PM
The historical fact is that minorities always get discriminated against.
Not true - Al-Andalus for example.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Horus on May 26, 2018, 03:41:02 AM
Statistics about birth rates in Israel are always iffy because they are so politically charged, but I found this article (https://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/2018/05/israels-demographic-miracle/) to be quite informative. It's definitely not just Arabs and Haredim (whose birthrate has actually declined over the previous decades, rapidly in the first case).
tl;dr Arab stats of course lie but Israeli stats of course don't; the government funds endless fertility treatment and unlike in silly Europe, Israel can take land from other countries if they run out.
It is indeed clear that you "dr" it if you think this is what the article said; either that, or your reading comprehension skills are incredibly poor. It is especially amazing how you claim I (or the article) says that "Israeli stats of course don't [lie]" when I point out in my own post that "statistics about birth rates in Israel are always iffy." Obviously the last part of your post is a blatant lie too, but don't let facts get in the way of your antisemitism I guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You're such a joke


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on May 26, 2018, 10:23:53 AM
The historical fact is that minorities always get discriminated against.
Not true - Al-Andalus for example.

Non-Muslims in Muslim Spain were de jure second class citizens, more discriminated against than modern Israeli Arabs.

If you want an example of a minority that's not discriminated against: Modern Japanese people in  present day America.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on May 26, 2018, 11:16:11 AM
If you want an example of a minority that's not discriminated against: Modern Japanese people in  present day America.

But not of course in the past.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: seb_pard on May 27, 2018, 06:36:22 PM
If you want an example of a minority that's not discriminated against: Modern Japanese people in  present day America.

But not of course in the past.

Other example: Whites in most of Latin America


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: MASHED POTATOES. VOTE! on June 03, 2018, 06:19:12 PM
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44343263

Really depressing.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: dead0man on June 04, 2018, 08:13:51 AM
It's weird that the BBC never covers the swastika kites, right?  You'd think that would be an interesting part of the story, but perhaps it doesn't fit with their greater agenda here?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: EPG on June 04, 2018, 01:42:16 PM
How dare they cover an actual killing by a government instead of kites by god knows who.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on June 04, 2018, 02:18:36 PM


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: dead0man on June 05, 2018, 09:06:24 AM
How dare they cover an actual killing by a government instead of kites by god knows who.
The version of BBC you see only covers deaths?  That's weird.  Mine doesn't.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: sverkol on June 09, 2018, 04:23:33 AM
Netanyahu and Likud getting a boost from Trump's Iran Deal decision. Bleh. I was hoping I'd get to see a left-wing government this decade, I guess not.

At least one good thing, though; if Levy-Abekasis and her party continue to rise, Liberman and his goons may fall below the threshold. Hopefully she refuses to work with Netayahu.

Heh, unlikely. My only hope is that Netanyahu gets indicted and his spell gets broken.
It's not going to be soon since "Attorney General" Mandelbit is Netayhau's freind.

I have a question, if Israel used FPTP do you think Bibi would still be PM or would he be defeated . Also how do you think the next election with FPTP would go

On current polls it's hard to see Bibi losing under any system, but in general it would depends on which parties would run and which parties would merge.
Amir Peretz could dafeat Bibi but he was too Sephardic,too Socialist and too Leftie for the avreage Labour member.
Now we are stuck with the curropt Likud Government.
There is an intersting option that MK Meirav Micaheli suggested to kibbutz members: https://twitter.com/RotterNews/status/1004958456514826240
We can join to the Likud (להתפקד) and influence their list.
https://www.likud.org.il/images/documents/register-to-likud.pdf


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: All Along The Watchtower on June 09, 2018, 09:52:15 AM
Halt UK arms trade with Israel while UN investigates Gaza killings

Quote
Since 30 March Palestinians in Gaza have been protesting – asserting their right to return to the homes from which their families were expelled or were forced to flee in 1948 and in 1967. They are also demonstrating against the appalling conditions caused by Israel’s illegal blockade of Gaza. In response, the Israeli government has instructed its troops to use live ammunition to fire on demonstrators, including children, resulting in the deaths of more than 100 and injuring over 13,000 Palestinians.

Quote
We note with extreme concern that, since 2014, the UK government has approved over £490m worth of arms exports to Israel, including small arms and components for sniper rifles similar or identical to those being used to kill and maim unarmed Palestinians.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/07/halt-uk-arms-trade-with-israel-while-un-investigates-gaza-killings


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on June 09, 2018, 03:55:13 PM
Halt UK arms trade with Israel while UN investigates Gaza killings

Quote
Since 30 March Palestinians in Gaza have been protesting – asserting their right to return to the homes from which their families were expelled or were forced to flee in 1948 and in 1967. They are also demonstrating against the appalling conditions caused by Israel’s illegal blockade of Gaza. In response, the Israeli government has instructed its troops to use live ammunition to fire on demonstrators, including children, resulting in the deaths of more than 100 and injuring over 13,000 Palestinians.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/07/halt-uk-arms-trade-with-israel-while-un-investigates-gaza-killings

I'm hardly a rabid defender of Israeli policy concerning occupied Palestine, but there's no good way for the IDF to distinguish teenagers from adults during a demonstration that comes too close to the border.  Also, given the use that Hamas makes of materials that do get into Gaza, it's perfectly understandable why Israel has such tight restrictions.  Yes, the Israelis have made a number of bone-headed mistakes that are part of the reason the Mideast is in the mess it is in, but that doesn't mean it can't address legitimate security issues.  It does need to address any mistakes or excesses in the implementation of how it chooses to address those issues, but I have no complaint about the general decisions Israel has made with respect to the demonstrations or the import restrictions on Gaza.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on June 09, 2018, 04:28:36 PM
Also, it was less a demonstration and more a riot. Well, a demo further back and a riot up near the fence.

A lot of stuff that Israel does isn't very nice, but you can understand why they do it.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: NewYorkExpress on June 18, 2018, 05:46:27 PM
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44520850 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44520850)

Quote
Israel has charged a former cabinet minister with spying for Iran, the Shin Bet internal security service says.

Gonen Segev, a medical doctor who served as energy minister in the 1990s, was allegedly recruited by Iranian intelligence while living in Nigeria.

He was detained during a visit to Equatorial Guinea in May and extradited following a request by Israeli police.

A statement issued by Shin Bet on Monday said Segev was detained immediately upon his arrival in Israel last month.

He was questioned about information which indicated he might have been in contact with Iranian intelligence agents and assisting their activities against Israel.

Investigators discovered during the interrogation that Segev had made contact with officials in the Iranian embassy in Nigeria in 2012 and that he visited Iran twice to meet his handlers, Shin Bet said.

Segev, it added, had also met his handlers in other countries and was given a classified communications system to send them coded messages.

Shin Bet alleged that he had given the handlers information relating to Israel's energy sector, security sites in Israel, and officials in political and security institutions, and also put the handlers in contact with some Israelis involved in the security sector by introducing them as businessmen.

On Friday, Segev was indicted in a Jerusalem court on charges of "assisting an enemy during a time of war and espionage against the State of Israel", as well as multiple offences of "handing over information to the enemy".

Given Segev has been out of Government since 1995, what information could he have to give away?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on June 19, 2018, 08:06:30 AM
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44520850 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44520850)

Quote
Israel has charged a former cabinet minister with spying for Iran, the Shin Bet internal security service says.

Gonen Segev, a medical doctor who served as energy minister in the 1990s, was allegedly recruited by Iranian intelligence while living in Nigeria.

He was detained during a visit to Equatorial Guinea in May and extradited following a request by Israeli police.

A statement issued by Shin Bet on Monday said Segev was detained immediately upon his arrival in Israel last month.

He was questioned about information which indicated he might have been in contact with Iranian intelligence agents and assisting their activities against Israel.

Investigators discovered during the interrogation that Segev had made contact with officials in the Iranian embassy in Nigeria in 2012 and that he visited Iran twice to meet his handlers, Shin Bet said.

Segev, it added, had also met his handlers in other countries and was given a classified communications system to send them coded messages.

Shin Bet alleged that he had given the handlers information relating to Israel's energy sector, security sites in Israel, and officials in political and security institutions, and also put the handlers in contact with some Israelis involved in the security sector by introducing them as businessmen.

On Friday, Segev was indicted in a Jerusalem court on charges of "assisting an enemy during a time of war and espionage against the State of Israel", as well as multiple offences of "handing over information to the enemy".

Given Segev has been out of Government since 1995, what information could he have to give away?
He’s a joke, 15 years ago he was caught smuggling 35K ecstasy pills...

Anyway the only concern is the information regarding the energy infrastructure (pipeline locations and something delicate that goes off radar for nearly 50 years now) and some cabinet procedures that hadn’t changed


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on June 19, 2018, 08:08:22 AM
He’s a joke, 15 years ago he was caught smuggling 35K ecstasy pills...
Pretty funny how he used to be energy minister and then moved to a different way to provide Israelis with more energy.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on June 19, 2018, 01:08:13 PM
Energy infrastructure is something that doesn't change very quickly after all.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on June 19, 2018, 09:23:06 PM
If the Israeli "energy" portfolio is anything like the American one, then at a minimum he could tell the Iranians how much fissile materiel the Israelis had in 1995 and how much they could make per year. Knowing how much they need to defend against if they ever got into a potential nuclear exchange with Israel is not entirely useless knowledge as it lets them know how good of an air and missile defense system they would need before considering the use of nukes themselves.

Probably some other more immediately useful info as well.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on June 20, 2018, 05:29:38 AM
If the Israeli "energy" portfolio is anything like the American one, then at a minimum he could tell the Iranians how much fissile materiel the Israelis had in 1995 and how much they could make per year. Knowing how much they need to defend against if they ever got into a potential nuclear exchange with Israel is not entirely useless knowledge as it lets them know how good of an air and missile defense system they would need before considering the use of nukes themselves.

Probably some other more immediately useful info as well.
You're miles of the mark on what interests the Iranian here. But I can't go further.

anyway, nuclear energy is governed by the a council which seats under the PM, not the energy ministry, and I doubt Segev memorized it for so long even if he had the knowledge (which I also think a oood intelligence agency could get a crude assessment by looking at over evidence)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on June 22, 2018, 05:21:03 AM
Herzog is now out of official politics as he's being appointed as the head of the Jewish Agency (to the annoyance of Big Brother).
As he was the leader of the opposition in the house the job is now vacant, I suppose Gabay will give it to Livni to appease her


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on June 22, 2018, 05:24:05 AM
Herzog is now out of official politics as he's being appointed as the head of the Jewish Agency (to the annoyance of Big Brother).
As he was the leader of the opposition in the house the job is now vacant, I suppose Gabay will give it to Livni to appease her
So their alliance is really going to remain a thing?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on June 22, 2018, 07:23:38 AM
Herzog is now out of official politics as he's being appointed as the head of the Jewish Agency (to the annoyance of Big Brother).
As he was the leader of the opposition in the house the job is now vacant, I suppose Gabay will give it to Livni to appease her
So their alliance is really going to remain a thing?
Do they really have a choice? She'll probably agree to another joint run in exchange to the job. Meretz will probably vote with them so they'll have the votes needed


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on June 22, 2018, 01:21:57 PM
What does the Jewish Agency do these days?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on June 22, 2018, 02:24:11 PM
What does the Jewish Agency do these days?
Raise funds, ceremonial roles, maintain links with the Jewish world. A comfortable job basically


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on June 22, 2018, 04:36:10 PM
Thanks.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on June 25, 2018, 08:38:30 PM
Yair Lapid spoke in D.C. today at the Brookings Institution. Was impressed by some of his comments. I think he is finally starting to grasp on how to talk about foreign affairs. Still needs some work, though.

Also, I like the decision to put Herzog at the Jewish Agency, despite me being a Likudnik and Bibi supporter. That being said, I'll miss Natan Sharansky deeply.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on June 26, 2018, 12:01:48 AM
Yair Lapid spoke in D.C. today at the Brookings Institution. Was impressed by some of his comments. I think he is finally starting to grasp on how to talk about foreign affairs. Still needs some work, though.

Also, I like the decision to put Herzog at the Jewish Agency, despite me being a Likudnik and Bibi supporter. That being said, I'll miss Natan Sharansky deeply.

Yeah, Herzog has a great profile for that and it's about time people realized the right doesn't have a monopoly on zionism. It's also time American Jews showed Netanyahu that his alliance with the Haredi parties, who deny that most of them are even Jews, and the heavy discrimination against Reform and Conservative Judaism in Israel is unacceptable to them. There's no reason the Jewish Agency supports a government that hates many of their members.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on June 26, 2018, 05:24:56 AM
Replacing Herzog in the Knesset will be Robert Tiviaev who has previously been part of Israel Beitenu Kadima and The Movement, before running in the Labour primaries before the last elections. However, his party switches haven't ended as he left the Labour party a few months ago and was planning on rejoining Beitenu before he realised that he will get in under the ZU list. It seems Tiviaev plans to become a ZU MK anyway but does say that he wouldn't vote for the ZU if the elections were today.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on June 26, 2018, 06:39:41 AM
Question - would the Joint List parties be up for being part of a Labour-led coalition government?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on June 26, 2018, 06:42:31 AM
Question - would the Joint List parties be up for being part of a Labour-led coalition government?

No


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on June 26, 2018, 11:11:20 AM
Question - would the Joint List parties be up for being part of a Labour-led coalition government?
confidence and supply if the government would be in some substantial peace negotiation and would be willing to move on some local palestinian issues. as neither is likely (as is a Labour government) it's purely theoretical.

* in that case I suppose Balad would drop out of the list

Quote
Replacing Herzog in the Knesset will be Robert Tiviaev who has previously been part of Israel Beitenu Kadima and The Movement, before running in the Labour primaries before the last elections. However, his party switches haven't ended as he left the Labour party a few months ago and was planning on rejoining Beitenu before he realised that he will get in under the ZU list. It seems Tiviaev plans to become a ZU MK anyway but does say that he wouldn't vote for the ZU if the elections were today.
any party willing to guarantee spots to candidates according to identity deserves this.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on June 27, 2018, 04:00:24 AM
The ZU is all but dead atm, Livni doesn’t want to run under Gabay and unless Ganz steps in I can’t see how it lasts. Labour itself is on the verge of collapse, Herzog jumped ship and Nachman Shay will soon follow. Shaffir is checking her options by running in a new list. And reports today say the leftist MKs in Yona, Baalol, Svetlova, and Ben-Reuven are contemplating splitting and joining Meretz (the law says you need 1/3 of a party to split, meaning they’ll need more defectors).
Peretz and Cabel are fighting him on internal politics. So basically it’s all falling apart there.

Goodbye and good riddance


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: dead0man on July 08, 2018, 10:45:30 AM
UAE officials in Israel to look at F35s (https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20180704-uae-military-delegation-visits-israel-media-reports/#.Wz9XfcyMG-t.twitter)...like, "officially" and stuff.  Good news, yes?
Quote
A military delegation from the United Arab Emirates (UAE) is currently in Israel for an official visit, Israeli media reported Wednesday.

“The Israeli Air Force recently hosted a military delegation from the UAE to review the performance of advanced US-made F-35 fighter jets,” Israel’s I24 news channel quoted an unnamed official source as saying.

“An American delegation was also present at the time,” the source added.

According to I24, the UAE “seeks to purchase its own fleet of F-35s… amid reports of a burgeoning Israeli-Gulf alliance against Iran”.

The UAE, for its part, has yet to confirm the reported visit to Israel, with whom it does not have diplomatic relations.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 08, 2018, 04:49:50 PM
Panels poll (current seats in brackets):

35 [30] Likud
17 [11] Yesh Atid
12 [13] The Joint (Arab) List
11 [24] Zionist Union
10 [08] Bayit Yehudi
08 [06] Yahadut Hatorah/UTJ
07 [05] Meretz
06 [10] Kulanu
05 [05] Yisrael Beitenu
05 [01] Orly Levy
04 [07] Shas
00 [–-] Yachad, Yaalon, Zehut (as other) under threshold


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on July 08, 2018, 06:11:31 PM
UAE officials in Israel to look at F35s (https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20180704-uae-military-delegation-visits-israel-media-reports/#.Wz9XfcyMG-t.twitter)...like, "officially" and stuff.  Good news, yes?
The problem with the adage that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is that such friendships rarely last once the common enemy has been dealt with.  Then there's the fact that the UAE is a demographic time bomb even worse than Israel with almost 90% of the population being foreign workers.  The Emirates are not stable in the long-term. Forging ties with the Emirs might help Israel a little in the short term vis-a-vis Iran but it certainly doesn't do anything to advance the cause of Arab-Israeli peace.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on July 09, 2018, 01:53:11 AM
Panels poll (current seats in brackets):

35 [30] Likud
17 [11] Yesh Atid
12 [13] The Joint (Arab) List
11 [24] Zionist Union
10 [08] Bayit Yehudi
08 [06] Yahadut Hatorah/UTJ
07 [05] Meretz
06 [10] Kulanu
05 [05] Yisrael Beitenu
05 [01] Orly Levy
04 [07] Shas
00 [–-] Yachad, Yaalon, Zehut (as other) under threshold

Can you highlight the current government parties please?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on July 09, 2018, 01:56:55 AM

Can you highlight the current government parties please?
35 [30] Likud
17 [11] Yesh Atid
12 [13] The Joint (Arab) List
11 [24] Zionist Union
10 [08] Bayit Yehudi
08 [06] Yahadut Hatorah/UTJ
07 [05] Meretz
06 [10] Kulanu
05 [05] Yisrael Beitenu
05 [01] Orly Levy
04 [07] Shas
00 [–-] Yachad, Yaalon, Zehut (as other) under threshold


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: EPG on July 09, 2018, 01:22:13 PM
(the law says you need 1/3 of a party to split, meaning they’ll need more defectors).

What does this mean? Can they quit, join the party and keep the seats? I know these splits were widespread earlier in Israel's history when the parties were often incredibly general and undifferentiated by policy.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Famous Mortimer on July 09, 2018, 02:05:08 PM
(the law says you need 1/3 of a party to split, meaning they’ll need more defectors).

What does this mean? Can they quit, join the party and keep the seats? I know these splits were widespread earlier in Israel's history when the parties were often incredibly general and undifferentiated by policy.

If less than 1/3 of the MKs leave the party, they lose their Knesset seats and get replaced by the next people on their old party's list.

Yes, this isn't how it used to be. They passed a law in the last decade to prevent the constant party switching/fracturing.



Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Tintrlvr on July 09, 2018, 02:23:42 PM
(the law says you need 1/3 of a party to split, meaning they’ll need more defectors).

What does this mean? Can they quit, join the party and keep the seats? I know these splits were widespread earlier in Israel's history when the parties were often incredibly general and undifferentiated by policy.

If less than 1/3 of the MKs leave the party, they lose their Knesset seats and get replaced by the next people on their old party's list.

Yes, this isn't how it used to be. They passed a law in the last decade to prevent the constant party switching/fracturing.



Couldn't they instead just sit as independents and then run as a new party at the next election? Isn't that what Orly Levy did?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 10, 2018, 06:49:09 AM
(the law says you need 1/3 of a party to split, meaning they’ll need more defectors).

What does this mean? Can they quit, join the party and keep the seats? I know these splits were widespread earlier in Israel's history when the parties were often incredibly general and undifferentiated by policy.

If less than 1/3 of the MKs leave the party, they lose their Knesset seats and get replaced by the next people on their old party's list.

Yes, this isn't how it used to be. They passed a law in the last decade to prevent the constant party switching/fracturing.



Couldn't they instead just sit as independents and then run as a new party at the next election? Isn't that what Orly Levy did?
You can but there’s a sanction, you don’t get funding and you can’t run in any existing party (that’s why she has to form a party and run solo until the end).

I would also point that the phenomena of floor crossing was widespread between the 70’s and the 90’s during the mini political realignment and due to the absurdity of the low threshold


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Velasco on July 11, 2018, 05:29:17 AM
The Knesset is currently debating a law that will allow the creation of segregated township only for Jews. Israeli president Reuven Rivlin sent a letter to the constitutional commission of the Knesset asking members not to vote a law that fosters "discrimination and exclusion in the name of a zionist vision". Rivlin warned the current draft allows without restrictions that every locality can determine the exclusion of Mizrahim, Druze or LGTB people and could be used as a weapon by the enemies of Israel. Minister of Public Security Gilad Erdan reacted saying that the letter is an "interference in the legislative process". Attorney general Avihai Mandelblit says that segregating population is unacceptable. A member of the attorney's office told Haaretz that the draft  i clearly discriminatory and could allow the ban of Jewish people by a given community.

A Bedouin village could decide the future of the Palestinian state. "Only a court order stands between Khan al-Ahmar and the bulldozers. And if it goes, the West Bank will be split in two", says The Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/07/khan-al-ahmar-west-bank-bedouin-village-facing-destruction

Insights?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Tintrlvr on July 11, 2018, 07:24:02 AM
The Knesset is currently debating a law that will allow the creation of segregated township only for Jews. Israeli president Reuven Rivlin sent a letter to the constitutional commission of the Knesset asking members not to vote a law that fosters "discrimination and exclusion in the name of a zionist vision". Rivlin warned the current draft allows without restrictions that every locality can determine the exclusion of Mizrahim, Druze or LGTB people and could be used as a weapon by the enemies of Israel. Minister of Public Security Gilad Erdan reacted saying that the letter is an "interference in the legislative process". Attorney general Avihai Mandelblit says that segregating population is unacceptable. A member of the attorney's office told Haaretz that the draft  i clearly discriminatory and could allow the ban of Jewish people by a given community.

A Bedouin village could decide the future of the Palestinian state. "Only a court order stands between Khan al-Ahmar and the bulldozers. And if it goes, the West Bank will be split in two", says The Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/07/khan-al-ahmar-west-bank-bedouin-village-facing-destruction

Insights?

Well, if that passes, they’re certainly not trying very hard to counter the Israel-is-an-apartheid-state accusation.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Velasco on July 11, 2018, 07:50:00 AM
Do they care at this point?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 11, 2018, 08:33:50 AM
The Knesset is currently debating a law that will allow the creation of segregated township only for Jews. Israeli president Reuven Rivlin sent a letter to the constitutional commission of the Knesset asking members not to vote a law that fosters "discrimination and exclusion in the name of a zionist vision". Rivlin warned the current draft allows without restrictions that every locality can determine the exclusion of Mizrahim, Druze or LGTB people and could be used as a weapon by the enemies of Israel. Minister of Public Security Gilad Erdan reacted saying that the letter is an "interference in the legislative process". Attorney general Avihai Mandelblit says that segregating population is unacceptable. A member of the attorney's office told Haaretz that the draft  i clearly discriminatory and could allow the ban of Jewish people by a given community.

The Israeli right is racist, deranged, hateful and bigoted. I'm fully willing to admit that by this point.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: EPG on July 11, 2018, 01:27:30 PM
(the law says you need 1/3 of a party to split, meaning they’ll need more defectors).

What does this mean? Can they quit, join the party and keep the seats? I know these splits were widespread earlier in Israel's history when the parties were often incredibly general and undifferentiated by policy.

If less than 1/3 of the MKs leave the party, they lose their Knesset seats and get replaced by the next people on their old party's list.

Yes, this isn't how it used to be. They passed a law in the last decade to prevent the constant party switching/fracturing.



Thanks. It seems to be a really powerful law for party leaders.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Intell on July 11, 2018, 11:44:39 PM
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/rights-groups-demand-israel-stop-arming-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-1.6248727 (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/rights-groups-demand-israel-stop-arming-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-1.6248727)

What's this about?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Velasco on July 12, 2018, 05:39:18 AM
The Israeli right is racist, deranged, hateful and bigoted. I'm fully willing to admit that by this point.

Is there any hope for Israel, or is the damage irreversible?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 12, 2018, 09:36:56 AM
The new nation-state law is amazing and has made me support the Likud again: they are finally about the action, not just the talk. Very promising steps towards a better Israel.

Looking forward to Miri Regev's cultural loyalty bill too, according to which funding can be cut if subsidized institutions promote anti-Zionism; hopefully this includes universities too. Haaretz' tears (https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-netanyahu-to-make-it-official-fascism-is-what-we-are-1.6264884?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter) seldom tasted this delicious.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on July 12, 2018, 12:17:45 PM
So David, how would you feel if certain towns in the Netherlands prohibited you from living there because despite being a Dutch citizen, you weren't actually Dutch?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 12, 2018, 01:20:51 PM
If these laws pass I'm probably going to bother much less to defend Israel from apartheid accusations.
In any case, I'm growing increasingly bitter with this government and the fact that the Likud is just getting stronger makes me very unhopeful that this country has a place for people like me. I've already been getting very apathetic to the Israeli politics, but this keeps getting reinforced. I mean, I had this thought a while ago- me and my current boyfriend will give, together, 12 years of service to the country. 12 years. And yet, the elected government believes we're inferior and unfit to be parents. Well, **** them. I don't really feel like defending them anymore.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Boobs on July 12, 2018, 01:50:36 PM
It is remarkable how quickly and readily those who claim to be defending liberal democracy and Israeli values abandon those very same principles.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 12, 2018, 02:10:10 PM
I mean, I had this thought a while ago- me and my current boyfriend will give, together, 12 years of service to the country. 12 years. And yet, the elected government believes we're inferior and unfit to be parents. Well, **** them. I don't really feel like defending them anymore.
This seems to be an unrelated issue, though. On which I completely agree with you: high time for Israel to give gay couples equal rights.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 12, 2018, 02:22:45 PM
I mean, I had this thought a while ago- me and my current boyfriend will give, together, 12 years of service to the country. 12 years. And yet, the elected government believes we're inferior and unfit to be parents. Well, **** them. I don't really feel like defending them anymore.
This seems to be an unrelated issue, though. On which I completely agree with you: high time for Israel to give gay couples equal rights.

Well, it's just a general feeling- I feel like this government is just making it harder and harder to defend it with these kinds of laws, while at the same time making it harder to WANT to defend it.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Horus on July 12, 2018, 03:17:28 PM
So David, how would you feel if certain towns in the Netherlands prohibited you from living there because despite being a Dutch citizen, you weren't actually Dutch?

He thinks his Judaism makes him special, he'd cry bigotry in Holland while supporting the exact same thing in Israel. This is why I wonder if he's actually a Jew, or some kind of troll job intentionally using every negative Jewish stereotype to prove some kind of point. The hypocrisy is mind boggling.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on July 12, 2018, 05:00:51 PM
So David, how would you feel if certain towns in the Netherlands prohibited you from living there because despite being a Dutch citizen, you weren't actually Dutch?

He thinks his Judaism makes him special, he'd cry bigotry in Holland while supporting the exact same thing in Israel. This is why I wonder if he's actually a Jew, or some kind of troll job intentionally using every negative Jewish stereotype to prove some kind of point. The hypocrisy is mind boggling.

Unfortunately, there are hypocrites in every group of people, so you can't use that as a troll test.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on July 12, 2018, 05:49:54 PM
I mean, I had this thought a while ago- me and my current boyfriend will give, together, 12 years of service to the country. 12 years. And yet, the elected government believes we're inferior and unfit to be parents. Well, **** them. I don't really feel like defending them anymore.
This seems to be an unrelated issue, though. On which I completely agree with you: high time for Israel to give gay couples equal rights.

You have long defended elements like united torah and shas and ultra-nationalists. they will never allow equality to occur. ever. they are fanatics.

Likud needs to grow a spine and start supporting the Diaspora again. This jewish state bill being hijacked by the haredis is disgraceful.

I get you support nationalism but you can't ignore democracy or the diaspora. when hasbara activists like me are fuming over the state of things thats when people need to stop and ask what the hell is going on.



Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: OSR stands with Israel on July 12, 2018, 06:22:44 PM
Do you guys think FPTP would help improve things in the long run because while it would likely give Likud a majority in the next election, it would make the party in power much more accountable to failures, which then would make it easier to throw the party in power out of office


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 12, 2018, 08:05:57 PM
I mean, I had this thought a while ago- me and my current boyfriend will give, together, 12 years of service to the country. 12 years. And yet, the elected government believes we're inferior and unfit to be parents. Well, **** them. I don't really feel like defending them anymore.
This seems to be an unrelated issue, though. On which I completely agree with you: high time for Israel to give gay couples equal rights.

You have long defended elements like united torah and shas and ultra-nationalists. they will never allow equality to occur. ever. they are fanatics.

Likud needs to grow a spine and start supporting the Diaspora again. This jewish state bill being hijacked by the haredis is disgraceful.

I get you support nationalism but you can't ignore democracy or the diaspora. when hasbara activists like me are fuming over the state of things thats when people need to stop and ask what the hell is going on.
What? I've defended quite a lot of things and parties -- but I've never defended Shas and UTJ. Corrupt idiots.

And yeah, the diaspora absolutely needs to be ignored. They are the ones who need to change, not Israel. Most of the diaspora does not deserve to be heard when it comes to policymaking in Israel.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Horus on July 12, 2018, 08:56:06 PM
I mean, I had this thought a while ago- me and my current boyfriend will give, together, 12 years of service to the country. 12 years. And yet, the elected government believes we're inferior and unfit to be parents. Well, **** them. I don't really feel like defending them anymore.
This seems to be an unrelated issue, though. On which I completely agree with you: high time for Israel to give gay couples equal rights.

You have long defended elements like united torah and shas and ultra-nationalists. they will never allow equality to occur. ever. they are fanatics.

Likud needs to grow a spine and start supporting the Diaspora again. This jewish state bill being hijacked by the haredis is disgraceful.

I get you support nationalism but you can't ignore democracy or the diaspora. when hasbara activists like me are fuming over the state of things thats when people need to stop and ask what the hell is going on.
What? I've defended quite a lot of things and parties -- but I've never defended Shas and UTJ. Corrupt idiots.

And yeah, the diaspora absolutely needs to be ignored. They are the ones who need to change, not Israel. Most of the diaspora does not deserve to be heard when it comes to policymaking in Israel.

And most Israelis don't deserve to be heard when it comes to policymaking here, so why are they?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: #TheShadowyAbyss on July 12, 2018, 09:50:27 PM
Do you guys think FPTP would help improve things in the long run because while it would likely give Likud a majority in the next election, it would make the party in power much more accountable to failures, which then would make it easier to throw the party in power out of office

IMO FPTP would make any government unworkable, it might curb the power of the ultra-religious fanatics, Likud is extremely popular at the moment and the Left is all but dead


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 13, 2018, 02:40:07 AM
I mean, I had this thought a while ago- me and my current boyfriend will give, together, 12 years of service to the country. 12 years. And yet, the elected government believes we're inferior and unfit to be parents. Well, **** them. I don't really feel like defending them anymore.
This seems to be an unrelated issue, though. On which I completely agree with you: high time for Israel to give gay couples equal rights.

You have long defended elements like united torah and shas and ultra-nationalists. they will never allow equality to occur. ever. they are fanatics.

Likud needs to grow a spine and start supporting the Diaspora again. This jewish state bill being hijacked by the haredis is disgraceful.

I get you support nationalism but you can't ignore democracy or the diaspora. when hasbara activists like me are fuming over the state of things thats when people need to stop and ask what the hell is going on.
What? I've defended quite a lot of things and parties -- but I've never defended Shas and UTJ. Corrupt idiots.

And yeah, the diaspora absolutely needs to be ignored. They are the ones who need to change, not Israel. Most of the diaspora does not deserve to be heard when it comes to policymaking in Israel.

The diaspora has been heavily supporting Israel with both money and lobbying, and they're clearly angry, which is why they beautifully trolled Netanyahu by choosing Herzog as the Agency leader. Ignore them at your peril- as a small market with a large trade surplus, Israel is a country that cannot and will not survive if isolated.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 13, 2018, 05:09:40 AM
Do you guys think FPTP would help improve things in the long run because while it would likely give Likud a majority in the next election, it would make the party in power much more accountable to failures, which then would make it easier to throw the party in power out of office
I already addressed FPTP earlier in this thread. Part for a small surge for Likud and Labour (and a small blow to centrists) it’s effect would be minimal, Israel is so heavily segregated between sectors that there will be very few seats that could move hands.
I think we need a German model with regional and state lists and increase the number of members in the house.

Historic facts some Israeli posters might not know: in the 50’s Ben-Gurion wanted Leibovitz to join Mapai, he agreed only if we move to FPTP, the rest is history


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Velasco on July 13, 2018, 05:11:13 AM
Very promising steps towards a better Israel.

Better for whom?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 13, 2018, 05:17:57 AM
As to the new basic law, we already have villages only for Jews and that’s without a law. All those place with an entry committee or Kibbutzim. On the abstract level I’m fine with that, people should be allowed to have small homogeneous settlements to match their lifestyle. I just think it could be used by small Right wing townships with their mongrel mayors (e.g. Afula)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 13, 2018, 10:22:57 AM
The diaspora has been heavily supporting Israel with both money and lobbying, and they're clearly angry, which is why they beautifully trolled Netanyahu by choosing Herzog as the Agency leader. Ignore them at your peril- as a small market with a large trade surplus, Israel is a country that cannot and will not survive if isolated.
I am going to go ahead and guess that 95% of diaspora Jews don't know and don't care about this. It's just the usual American left-wing loudmouths crying again. Best not to take them seriously.

For Israelis :)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 13, 2018, 11:44:12 AM
The diaspora has been heavily supporting Israel with both money and lobbying, and they're clearly angry, which is why they beautifully trolled Netanyahu by choosing Herzog as the Agency leader. Ignore them at your peril- as a small market with a large trade surplus, Israel is a country that cannot and will not survive if isolated.
I am going to go ahead and guess that 95% of diaspora Jews don't know and don't care about this. It's just the usual American left-wing loudmouths crying again. Best not to take them seriously.

For Israelis :)
Don’t most of the diaspora live in the US and are overwhelmingly liberal? I assume most don’t care because most people don’t really care, but the people who do usually have money and influence.

Now I personally am all for telling the diaspora to sod off with AIPAC and Jstreet, but the way our economy is built makes us heavily dependent on export (of mainly IP), our heavily tariffed economy will crumble without that trade (or at least be strained and resort to high inflation)

Now I don’t know old you guys are but I really don’t want to return to dollar deals and control over currency, and considering all of our pensions are now stock/bonds dependent it will be even worse.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: OSR stands with Israel on July 13, 2018, 11:57:53 AM

How is segregation better for anyone


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 13, 2018, 12:53:17 PM
Someone created this. I'm not sure on the data

()


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 13, 2018, 02:28:53 PM
The diaspora has been heavily supporting Israel with both money and lobbying, and they're clearly angry, which is why they beautifully trolled Netanyahu by choosing Herzog as the Agency leader. Ignore them at your peril- as a small market with a large trade surplus, Israel is a country that cannot and will not survive if isolated.
I am going to go ahead and guess that 95% of diaspora Jews don't know and don't care about this. It's just the usual American left-wing loudmouths crying again. Best not to take them seriously.

For Israelis :)
Don’t most of the diaspora live in the US and are overwhelmingly liberal? I assume most don’t care because most people don’t really care, but the people who do usually have money and influence.

Now I personally am all for telling the diaspora to sod off with AIPAC and Jstreet, but the way our economy is built makes us heavily dependent on export (of mainly IP), our heavily tariffed economy will crumble without that trade (or at least be strained and resort to high inflation)

Now I don’t know old you guys are but I really don’t want to return to dollar deals and control over currency, and considering all of our pensions are now stock/bonds dependent it will be even worse.

Exactly. I know thinking that nationaliat feather puffing will make life better for Israelis might be compelling when you live in Europe, but what really will make our life better is striving for peace and using the continued economic growth to raise wages (rather than destroying the economy to show these libruls what's what).

Someone created this. I'm not sure on the data

()

Interesting, is that the flow of voters from each party? Because lol Meretz -> Likud.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 14, 2018, 04:30:28 AM
The diaspora has been heavily supporting Israel with both money and lobbying, and they're clearly angry, which is why they beautifully trolled Netanyahu by choosing Herzog as the Agency leader. Ignore them at your peril- as a small market with a large trade surplus, Israel is a country that cannot and will not survive if isolated.
I am going to go ahead and guess that 95% of diaspora Jews don't know and don't care about this. It's just the usual American left-wing loudmouths crying again. Best not to take them seriously.

For Israelis :)
Don’t most of the diaspora live in the US and are overwhelmingly liberal? I assume most don’t care because most people don’t really care, but the people who do usually have money and influence.

Now I personally am all for telling the diaspora to sod off with AIPAC and Jstreet, but the way our economy is built makes us heavily dependent on export (of mainly IP), our heavily tariffed economy will crumble without that trade (or at least be strained and resort to high inflation)

Now I don’t know old you guys are but I really don’t want to return to dollar deals and control over currency, and considering all of our pensions are now stock/bonds dependent it will be even worse.

Exactly. I know thinking that nationaliat feather puffing will make life better for Israelis might be compelling when you live in Europe, but what really will make our life better is striving for peace and using the continued economic growth to raise wages (rather than destroying the economy to show these libruls what's what).

Someone created this. I'm not sure on the data

()

Interesting, is that the flow of voters from each party? Because lol Meretz -> Likud.
I actually know quite a lot who moved from the left to Sharon in 2003 and never looked back. The left really needs to internalize the fact that the second intifada is biggest drive from most Israelis when they go out to vote. The damage Barak did could probably never be mended


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on July 14, 2018, 02:13:59 PM
As an American Jew, I like when people who aren't in the community speak for me and millions of other Jews  ::) .

I'm tired of hearing about how I, a conservative zionist,  "enable" left-wing anti-Israel Jews because I won't crap all over my community. (This isn't necessarily something posters here have said, but something I hear on a consistent basis IRL and on social media) I actively was involved in efforts to oppose Anti-Israel and antisemitic behaviors on college campuses. Whether it came from Islamic radicals, or left-wing Jewish radicals or edgy white liberals.

So, no, I don't think me defending the US Jewish Community is enabling anything. The reality is that people like DavidB (someone I deeply respect and admire as a friend on and off atlas) need to understand is that things are complicated.

Yes, American Jews are spoiled compared to the hardships Israeli Jews and Jews in danger zones (Europe, S. Africa etc...) face every day.

Yes, American Jews are falling behind on educating the youth. We are losing people to the false prophets of Anti-Zionism and "human rights advocacy."

Yes, Reform and Conservative Judaism in the US have damaged themselves (possibly permanently) by watering down our religion and customs and allowing (and even encouraging) intermarriage and over-secularization.

BUT..... That being said:

It is also true that American Jews provide millions of dollars in strong support for Israel, the IDF, Settlers and cultural/economic/religious institutions in the homeland. This is a super diverse group of people. Stop trying to paint us all with one brush.

It is also true that liberal organizations such as the ADL, the American Jewish Committee and the American Jewish Congress staunchly support Israel's actions in foreign policy/national security. Even when it is hard to do so. Occasional lapses of judgement is not the end of the world. No one is f**king perfect.

Organizations like AIPAC, StandWithUs, ZOA, the Israel Project etc... are all American-run and almost entirely filled with American Jewish activists and organizers. The crazy comparison that some people on the right and left make of AIPAC to J-Street is shocking.

Thousands of young American Jews, myself included, gave up our aspirations in other aspects of politics to try and hold the line and defend Israel and her policies while we were in college. This includes many liberals and Reform Jews (sorry to burst the far-right's delusions).

DavidB, it is very false and counterproductive to claim only a fringe number of Jews care about certain issues. Many American Jews who are reform and conservative wonder why Israel, apparently, ignores some of their requests on religious and cultural issues.

I oppose Women of the Wall and I oppose weakening conversion guidelines. But, I also oppose the deliberate effort of the Haredi parties and some far-right activists who take glee in spitting in the face of the diaspora.

Where were these clowns in 1948 when Rabbi Wise and Rabbi Silver (both Reform) were organizing support for Zionism in America?  most ultra-orthodox OPPOSED Zionism and the re-establishment of Israel until after the Six-Day War. Chabad was one of the first hasidic groups to embrace Israel, even while sidestepping its secular elements (understandably). Most, however, only put their hands in the cookie jar when they realized they could get something out of it.

There has to be a middle ground. I don't know it is, but we cannot afford to lose the Diaspora. Natan Sharansky's plan may or may not have been a mistake but it was a good step in the conservation with Diaspora Jews.

Many of my fellow Likudniks agree: https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Poll-Likud-voters-favor-recognition-of-Reform-Conservative-groups-562071

The worst part isn't the inaction on these issues, but the tolerance by the coalition of crazy comments from haredi leaders:

1. https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Earthquake-caused-by-Reform-Conservative-Jews-says-Shas-MK-561646

2. https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-adl-head-ultra-orthodox-using-hate-speech-against-reform-jews-1.5422609



But, also, like I always say, it is never one side to blame. Reform and Conservative Jewish leaders need to wake up and realize that their congregations are getting used as political organizations and that they have sold themselves out for the false comfort of diaspora acceptance:

1. http://www.thetower.org/article/reform-and-conservative-judaism-have-failed-in-israel-and-its-their-own-fault/

2. https://www.timesofisrael.com/an-author-predicts-an-end-to-diaspora-jewry-thanks-to-tikkun-olam-progressivism/

3. https://nypost.com/2018/06/23/liberal-jews-are-destroying-their-own-religion/


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 14, 2018, 03:47:14 PM
This is an awesome post, Sunrise. I find it admirable that you defend your fellow zionists from the left and don't go along with the line of many on the modern right who wish to take zionism to themselves and proclaim leftists as post-zionists. I also strongly agree with your views on the Haredi party- I think it's really telling that the opposition to their outrageous actions is so widespread, and I suspect an overwhelming majority of Israelis view them with distatste. If they think they can keep doing what they want and saying what they want in such an environment, their bubble is bound to burst at some point. And people like you (or like Chuck Schumer from the other side) make me dearly hope that the Jewish-American community can recover from its decline and maintain itself as a proud and strong force in the U.S., supporting Israel (which will hopefully start showing gratitude) despite having a majority of reform and conservative liberals, living and marching alongside orthodox Jews, even the staunch right-wingers like yourself.. It's beautiful imo.

I obviously disagree with you on a few issues- I, especially as a member of the post-Soviet Jewish community abused by the Rabanut, support weakening conversion guidelines and (though they're sometimes too in-your-face for me) the cause of Women on the Wall. Especially the latter- there's really no reason to let the Haredim own the Western Wall, it belongs to all Jews. In any case, before they owned it there was no sex-based segregation there and it did fine. But well, I'm generally quite radical on the issue of the Rabanut.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on July 14, 2018, 04:31:15 PM
This is an awesome post, Sunrise. I find it admirable that you defend your fellow zionists from the left and don't go along with the line of many on the modern right who wish to take zionism to themselves and proclaim leftists as post-zionists. I also strongly agree with your views on the Haredi party- I think it's really telling that the opposition to their outrageous actions is so widespread, and I suspect an overwhelming majority of Israelis view them with distatste. If they think they can keep doing what they want and saying what they want in such an environment, their bubble is bound to burst at some point. And people like you (or like Chuck Schumer from the other side) make me dearly hope that the Jewish-American community can recover from its decline and maintain itself as a proud and strong force in the U.S., supporting Israel (which will hopefully start showing gratitude) despite having a majority of reform and conservative liberals, living and marching alongside orthodox Jews, even the staunch right-wingers like yourself.. It's beautiful imo.

I obviously disagree with you on a few issues- I, especially as a member of the post-Soviet Jewish community abused by the Rabanut, support weakening conversion guidelines and (though they're sometimes too in-your-face for me) the cause of Women on the Wall. Especially the latter- there's really no reason to let the Haredim own the Western Wall, it belongs to all Jews. In any case, before they owned it there was no sex-based segregation there and it did fine. But well, I'm generally quite radical on the issue of the Rabanut.

Thanks, I appreciate it. I think for me, as both an American and Israeli citizen, I have figuratively been feeling like the ground has been falling out from under the US-Israel Relationship's intrinsic fabric. I remember reading in Michael Oren's book that the most glaring example of the awkward underbelly of the US-Israel Jewish relationship was when he experienced his daughter's marriage not being recognized due to her being Reform. (for those non-Jewish posters who don't know, Oren was Israel's Ambassador to America from 2009-2013, so ridiculous that his daughter's marriage was not seen as real while he was serving Israel as a diplomat).

Oren was for a long time seen as the quintessential child of US-Israel Relations due to his upbringing as an American Jew and his career as an Israeli Jew. Young American Jews who went to college from 2009-2013 were able to connect to him on so many personal levels. Ron Dermer is also an American-Israeli and an Israeli-American, but his story is not ringing true to Americans in the same way that Oren's did. This type of romanticism seems to be dying and it is problematic.

Storytelling and fond personal experience is what keeps all relationships strong. Today's generation of American Jews don't have that. Most have never even been to Israel. How can they be expected to unflinchingly defend Israel if 1) they don't feel represented and 2) if they have no personal aura connecting them to Israel?

Birthright does amazing work, for example, in building that personal connection, but not all Jews go on Birthright.  Not because they don't want to go but because timing or personal situations don't work out.

I think all sides of the religious divide need to realize that we all contribute to this decline. The worst part is that there is no real place for a conversation. Reform/Conservative Jews get upset when one does not take an absolutist defense of their views and Orthodox/Haredi Jews also get upset when one does not take an absolutist defense of their views.

On the broader Diaspora-Israel Relationship, I think the biggest factor is that for so many decades American Jews were used to both parties having some sort of Pro-Israel wing. Dems were more Pro-Israel from 1948-1970s and the GOP has been more Pro-Israel since 1980s but even after that switch there was always a strong Pro-Israel faction  in both parties. Until Barack Obama won in 2008. I don't want to place all blame on him but his policy shellshocked a lot of Pro-Israel Americans.

Until 2011-2012, Israel was never a top priority issue for me, for example. I always expected both parties to be Pro-Israel. Not in a blind way, but in a sympathetic way. Even in 2008 none of my criticisms of Obama or the Dems were Israel-related.

Democrat Jews responded it to it in two ways: 1) Criticizing Obama on Israel but still voting democrat (which is a fair position to take) 2) Selling out Israel and conforming to Anti-Israel bashing on the far-left.

The Jewish Right, instead of just trying to defeat the anti-Israel Jews and anti-Israel progressives, decided to torpedo the whole DNC with attacks. Similarly, Jewish Democrats decided to label all of the GOP as crazy evangelicals  (and now claiming most Repubs are "alt-right") without also pointing out that there are many good Pro-Jewish and Pro-Israel Republicans. This has led to the politicization of Israel.

On the conversion question, I am also a son of Post-USSR/FSU Jews and I definitely understand the anxiety and frustration with the Rabbinate. I support reforming how the Rabbinate functions, but my fears on conversion and how intermarriage is viewed is directly related to the failures of Reform and Conservative Judaism.

Both Reform and Conservative Jews are intermarrying themselves out of existence. A huge majority of Jews in America intermarry and their kids do not identify as Jewish. So my hardline on intermarriage and conversion is out of an existential view. If that makes sense.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: ○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└ on July 14, 2018, 04:32:27 PM
This map shocked Obama.

()

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-map-of-israeli-settlements-that-shocked-barack-obama


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 14, 2018, 04:58:55 PM
This map shocked Obama.

()

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-map-of-israeli-settlements-that-shocked-barack-obama

This map is misleading, though. There are only a few actually big blocks of settlements which can no longer be dismantled, the rest are scattered and small. There are a lot of empty areas too. But, I'm also worried that the settlements will keep expanding and derail a two-state solution, and thus a liveable Jewish country.

Re: Sunrise- I'll read and reply tomorrow :)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: OSR stands with Israel on July 14, 2018, 10:10:36 PM
One reason Im skeptical of a two-state solution involving Jerusalem is because of the situation between India and Pakistan involving Kashmir.

Radical Islamic terrorists wont stop attacking India and Israel until both nations are totally are destroyed and that is why they must not be appeased.




Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on July 15, 2018, 12:34:38 AM
One reason Im skeptical of a two-state solution involving Jerusalem is because of the situation between India and Pakistan involving Kashmir.

Radical Islamic terrorists wont stop attacking India and Israel until both nations are totally are destroyed and that is why they must not be appeased.




Kashmir itself was decisively Muslim at partition. Had Jammu and Kashmir been plebiscited instead of being a nominally independent princely state, Kashmir would've gone to Pakistan with Jammu and Ladakh (save perhaps northern Kargil) to India. Unfortunately, it wasn't which contributed to the fighting and for obvious reasons no post-independence referendum was held.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 15, 2018, 05:38:00 AM
Good post by Sunrise. It is certainly true that there are a number of great Zionist organizations in America and thousands and thousands of Jewish students who are doing absolutely great work. That said, I still think the "diaspora card" is pulled by the Israeli and American Jewish left when it comes to religion-state issues: most of the diaspora doesn't care. And since diaspora Jews, particularly in the U.S., are simply much less likely to meaningfully adhere to Jewish traditions (we all know the poll where a plurality of American Jews think their Judaism revolves around "humor"), I think it is diaspora Jews who need to change, not Israel. Of course, these are generalizations. There are millions of American Jews: most of them are sympathetic to Israel and many of them are doing important work for Israel. But we have to be honest here. The exact same goes for me. I am much less observant than I should be, yet have done Israel advocacy and continue to stand up for Israel in the political organizations in which I am active. But it would be unreasonable for me to expect Israel to cater to my views and adjust its domestic policies solely because of me or people like me: foreigners.

I don't respond to people on my ignore list (i.e. Horus and Ernest).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on July 15, 2018, 09:12:59 AM
I don't respond to people on my ignore list (i.e. Horus and Ernest).
Yes you are quite irresponsive to those who don't share your views, but even if you weren't choosing to live in an echo chamber, I don't think I posted anything since your last post that would have generated a reply by you.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Velasco on July 15, 2018, 09:19:28 AM
"Israel in turmoil over a bill allowing Jews and Arabs to be segregated"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/15/israel-turmoil-bill-allowing-jews-arabs-segregated

Quote
Israel is in the throes of political upheaval as the country’s ruling party seeks to pass legislation that could allow for Jewish-only communities, which critics have condemned as the end of a democratic state (...)

The proposed legislation would allow the state to “authorise a community composed of people having the same faith and nationality to maintain the exclusive character of that community”.

In its current state, the draft would also permit Jewish religious law to be implemented in certain cases and remove Arabic as an official language.

I find the last two paragraphs particularly disturbing. It sounds like the Israeli government is paving the way for a theocratic state. Netanyahu argues the following:

Quote
“In the Israeli democracy, we will continue to protect the rights of both the individual and the group, this is guaranteed. But the majority have rights too, and the majority rules,”

This is misguided, to say the least. In democracy the majority governs, but the safeguard of minorities rights is sacred. Under no circumstance the rights of the majority are an excuse to discriminate the minorities in a democratic state. This is a key part of a democracy and the legislation the Israeli government wants to pass is openly discriminatory.

Quote
“Our main concern is that it is changing the nature of the state and it changes the balance of Israel as a nation state,” said Amir Fuchs, the head of the defending democratic values programme at the Israel Democracy Institute. “You can be a nation state and still be a democracy as long as you don’t discriminate,” said Fuchs. “That the state is allowed to create villages that will separate on the basis of race or religion or nationality – this is outrageous.”





Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on July 15, 2018, 09:21:12 AM
This map shocked Obama.

()

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-map-of-israeli-settlements-that-shocked-barack-obama

This map is misleading, though. There are only a few actually big blocks of settlements which can no longer be dismantled, the rest are scattered and small. There are a lot of empty areas too. But, I'm also worried that the settlements will keep expanding and derail a two-state solution, and thus a liveable Jewish country.

It does make obvious that pretty much in every instance, if there is a choice between inconveniencing the settlers and making life miserable for the Palestinians, the Israel occupation has chosen the latter rather than former.  Israel has chosen to divide the Palestinian areas into hundreds of isolated ghettos, apparently just so that the settlers can go directly from settlement A to settlement B rather than having to take a longer route.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Torie on July 15, 2018, 09:29:49 AM
I am interested as to why David is so confident that just "blowing off" the Jewish Diaspora will not result in less support for Israel from that group and why that does not present potentially serious problems down the line for Israel. And I assume that when he says that the diaspora "needs to change," he really doesn't think that they will change in the direction that he prefers. One thing I think the diaspora does help do in the US, is slow down the migration of the political left towards being hostile to Zionism and the idea of a Jewish state, and protecting that state to the extent needed from destruction.  

David, do you think Israel could survive as a nation long term in its present form, if the US cut off its support of Israel, in the sense of being there for Israel in a real crunch?

I assume that I am not on David's "ignore" list - at least not yet. :)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 15, 2018, 09:32:06 AM
In the postmodernist hellscape the Western left seeks to create, minorities first receive more rights than the majority and subsequently become the majority themselves. When this happens, all protections of minority rights will obviously go overboard, because the new majority won't care about legal protection and rights for the "privileged" minority.

And so what we need in the West as well as in Israel is more protections for the majority -- so that they can remain the majority and these countries can remain well-functioning countries.

Freedom of association is an important right. Certain Israeli settlements already require vetting before one can move there. One cannot just move to Beitar Illit: one has to adhere to a similar lifestyle, i.e. be Haredi. This reduces tensions, and I support it. Similarly, Arabs and LGBT people can theoretically establish their own new communities. However, I do not think this should be allowed in cities. In the proposal introduced by the government, the state does not discriminate. Citizens themselves can establish communities and decide, in a democratic way, whom to allow in and whom not to allow in. This is a good thing.

The Israeli New Left is not interested in democracy at all; on the contrary, it continues to undermine it. It knows that it has lost the majority of Israelis after inflicting misery on the population, and it knows that it cannot win another election. So it now focuses on minorities, minorities, minorities, it uses foreign-funded NGOs to sabotage the will of the majority, and it engages in legal warfare through the Supreme Court. I am critical of Likud's economic policies, but I recognize they do one thing very well: at least they are there for the majority of Israelis. Indeed, they are possibly the only party that does not just claim to stand for one segment of society: the last true catch-all party in Israel. No wonder Netanyahu keeps winning elections.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 15, 2018, 09:49:44 AM
I am interested as to why David is so confident that just "blowing off" the Jewish Diaspora will not result in less support for Israel from that group and why that does not present potentially serious problems down the line for Israel.
I'm not necessarily saying Israel's policies will not affect support for Israel in the diaspora. I am saying that people who support Israel less over its policies are the ones at fault, not Israel. I don't necessarily think the role of American Jews in securing support for Israel is all that important, and I certainly think American Jews overestimate it.

And I assume that when he says that the diaspora "needs to change," he really doesn't think that they will change in the direction that he prefers. One thing I think the diaspora does help do in the US, is slow down the migration of the political left towards being hostile to Zionism and the idea of a Jewish state, and protecting that state to the extent needed from destruction.
I'm skeptical about this. It is happening unabatedly. Some Jews make admirable efforts to slow down the trend within the Democratic Party and I fully support them, but their work doesn't appear to be all that effective and I think it is going to be futile in the long run; meanwhile, other Jews actually lead the anti-Israeli camp and appear to become more radical by the day.

David, do you think Israel could survive as a nation long term in its present form, if the US cut off its support of Israel, in the sense of being there for Israel in a real crunch?
Yes, I think Israel will survive even if the U.S. decides to retract it veto with regard to anti-Israel motions on the UN Security Council. Which isn't too unlikely in the near future -- Israel continuing to improve its ties with Russia, another country with a veto in the UN Security Council, is therefore a very good development. I also think Israel can do without U.S. financial aid, though this would obviously pose financial problems in the short run.

The question not posed, however, is to what extent American Jewry affects the U.S. government's attitude towards Israel. I am utterly unconvinced that it plays a significant role. Which is good: in my view, America currently supports Israel because it's in America's strategic interests. That's the way it should be.

Of course, the problem of American left-wing Jews seeking to exercise influence over Israeli domestic policies is a temporary problem anyway. Given birth rates and intermarriage rates, American Jewry will be significantly more orthodox in 50 years. Secular left-wing American Jews are a dying breed. What is the difference between Donald Trump and the average Reform Jew? Trump has Jewish grandchildren, and the average Reform Jew won't.

I assume that I am not on David's "ignore" list - at least not yet. :)
Our interactions have always been enjoyable. Disagreement is no problem. Disrespect is.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on July 15, 2018, 10:17:27 AM
I think we shouldn't treat Israel with double standards, but that counts both ways: if the Netherlands started creating Dutch only towns that Turks or Jews couldn't live in or if they started imposing loyalty tests on academics we would have no problem saying that woild be, at the very least, extremely authoritarian, and possibly fascistic.

The question not posed, however, is to what extent American Jewry affects the U.S. government's attitude towards Israel. I am utterly unconvinced that it plays a significant role. Which is good: in my view, America currently supports Israel because it's in America's strategic interests. That's the way it should be.

I'm not sure about this. It seems to me that Israel, being (fairly or unfairly) disliked across the Muslim world and elsewhere, represents more of a liability to American interests rather than a strategic asset. The alliance hinders pacts with Muslim leaders in America's attempts to isolate its enemies China, Russia and Iran; it also damages America's ability to present itself as a neutral mediator in the peace accords.

I also do think the diaspora is more helpful than you think. Look at the UK - the diaspora (rightly) have made the issue of anti-zionism a big deal, and partially wounded Corbynism as a result. If the Zionist state divorces itself from the diaspora, why would they bother to stand up against claims that Israel is an apartheid state? Israel would no longer be a state intended to represent all Jews, and would just be a country where a lot of Jews happen to live.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 15, 2018, 10:38:41 AM
I think we shouldn't treat Israel with double standards, but that counts both ways: if the Netherlands started creating Dutch only towns that Turks or Jews couldn't live in or if they started imposing loyalty tests on academics we would have no problem saying that woild be, at the very least, extremely authoritarian, and possibly fascistic.
I don't know who "we" is. If the proposal were similar to the Israeli proposal, I wouldn't be opposed to it either. No double standard there. Wouldn't want to live in a community that would not accept me as a member anyway, to put it somewhat differently than Groucho Marx would. But I really don't think it would be remotely likely that Jews would be banned from any places.

I'm not sure about this. It seems to me that Israel, being (fairly or unfairly) disliked across the Muslim world and elsewhere, represents more of a liability to American interests rather than a strategic asset. The alliance hinders pacts with Muslim leaders in America's attempts to isolate its enemies China, Russia and Iran; it also damages America's ability to present itself as a neutral mediator in the peace accords.
Let's leave the (legitimate and potentially interesting) discussion about whether Israel is an asset or a liability to the U.S. aside for now: to me, the Iran deal was the ultimate litmus test whether Democrats were interested in Jewish views. They weren't.

I also do think the diaspora is more helpful than you think. Look at the UK - the diaspora (rightly) have made the issue of anti-zionism a big deal, and partially wounded Corbynism as a result. If the Zionist state divorces itself from the diaspora, why would they bother to stand up against claims that Israel is an apartheid state? Israel would no longer be a state intended to represent all Jews, and would just be a country where a lot of Jews happen to live.
True, the UK is a different case. But in the U.S., the Democratic Party seems lost.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on July 15, 2018, 11:17:45 AM
I'm not sure about this. It seems to me that Israel, being (fairly or unfairly) disliked across the Muslim world and elsewhere, represents more of a liability to American interests rather than a strategic asset. The alliance hinders pacts with Muslim leaders in America's attempts to isolate its enemies China, Russia and Iran; it also damages America's ability to present itself as a neutral mediator in the peace accords.
Let's leave the (legitimate and potentially interesting) discussion about whether Israel is an asset or a liability aside for now: to me the Iran deal was the ultimate litmus test whether Democrats were interested in Jewish views. They weren't.

You have an "interesting" definition of "interested". It apparently means "accepting uncritically" to you.

Sanctions have generally proven unable to affect changes in policy, especially amongst authoritarian regimes, so there's no point in including that possibility in any calculus of whether they are a desirable policy. The only real question is whether sanctions or engagement are the best means of keeping Iran from developing and then potentially employing a nuclear capability. That's something that is debatable.

(You also believe "Jewish"="Zionist", which is both something you made clear long ago and isn't all that interesting.)

David, do you think Israel could survive as a nation long term in its present form, if the US cut off its support of Israel, in the sense of being there for Israel in a real crunch?
Yes, I think Israel will survive even if the U.S. decides to retract it veto with regard to anti-Israel motions on the UN Security Council. Which isn't too unlikely in the near future -- Israel continuing to improve its ties with Russia, another country with a veto in the UN Security Council, is therefore a very good development. I also think Israel can do without U.S. financial aid, though this would obviously be a financial issue in the short run.

Considering the support Russia also extends to Syria and Iran, I do wonder why you think Russia would choose to prioritize Israeli-relations over its existing ones when they come into conflict.  It may be that Russia will be able to act as a neutral broker now that the U.S. has abandoned that role, but it doesn't really require a powerful country to act as a neutral broker, and such a broker will only be useful when both sides think a deal is both possible and desirable, and right now neither seems to think that.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: dead0man on July 15, 2018, 11:36:16 AM
Considering the support Russia also extends to Syria and Iran, I do wonder why you think Russia would choose to prioritize Israeli-relations over its existing ones when they come into conflict.
I suspect if Russia thought Israel would seriously move away from the US and towards them that they/Putin would jump at the chance and leave sh**tty allies like Assad and the Mullahs as quickly as they/he could.

A.they'd finally, after half a century, have competent allies in the middle east
2.they'd get to look at some US/western tech
III.they'd get the advantage of having first dibs on future Israeli tech.  A lot more science comes out of Tel Aviv than it does Damascus and Tehran combined.


Of course Israel ain't going anywhere unless the US starts electing anti-Semites, and the way a lot of young people feel here, that's not impossible over the next couple of decades.




also, are we just not going to talk talk about Gaza?  Even after 200 rockets in a day and the largest IDF response since 2014?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: EPG on July 15, 2018, 12:07:59 PM
Freedom of association is an important right. Certain Israeli settlements already require vetting before one can move there. One cannot just move to Beitar Illit: one has to adhere to a similar lifestyle, i.e. be Haredi. This reduces tensions, and I support it. Similarly, Arabs and LGBT people can theoretically establish their own new communities. However, I do not think this should be allowed in cities. In the proposal introduced by the government, the state does not discriminate. Citizens themselves can establish communities and decide, in a democratic way, whom to allow in and whom not to allow in. This is a good thing.

This is why more and more people call Israel an apartheid state.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 15, 2018, 12:22:28 PM
This is why more and more people call Israel an apartheid state.
You have one guess as for how many f**ks I give.

also, are we just not going to talk talk about Gaza?  Even after 200 rockets in a day and the largest IDF response since 2014?
This is fine for most people here.

Seriously, almost all "far/alt-right" people I know (and at this point I know quite a few of them, in quite a few countries) are either less antisemitic than many of the regulars here or not antisemitic at all, and they are considerably more respectful towards me and sympathetic to my pro-Israeli viewpoints. It's why I think right-wing antisemitism is much less of a problem in most countries than mainstream left antisemitism (let alone far-left and Islamist antisemitism). I do not feel the need to engage with the rabid antisemites here (this absolutely does not include people like Crabcake and Torie, but it does include some others...).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on July 15, 2018, 01:23:02 PM
also, are we just not going to talk talk about Gaza?  Even after 200 rockets in a day and the largest IDF response since 2014?
We could talk about Hamas' idiocy, but that's nothing new, just the particular form of it with the added addition of the incendiary balloons/kites of late.  Neither what Hamas is doing, nor the IDF's response, which so far appears to be proportionate, changes anything. At this point, it's the Middle Eastern equivalent of yet another school shooting.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Kingpoleon on July 15, 2018, 03:34:32 PM
Could we take a moment to talk about how Parrotguy supports BLM but thinks Women at the Wall is too in-your-face?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 15, 2018, 04:02:14 PM
Could we take a moment to talk about how Parrotguy supports BLM but thinks Women at the Wall is too in-your-face?
His quote:
Quote
I, especially as a member of the post-Soviet Jewish community abused by the Rabanut, support weakening conversion guidelines and (though they're sometimes too in-your-face for me) the cause of Women on the Wall.
So he also supports Women of the Wall, despite thinking they're too in-your-face sometimes. He might very well have the exact same opinion of BLM.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 15, 2018, 04:27:59 PM
That's a very interesting discussion happening here. I don't have time to write a huge effortpost (exam tomorrow, hahahimdead). But a few points:

1. I agree with Sunrise on most points, actually. Though I do disagree that Obama presented a real break from Israel- he mostly continued to support us when it was needed, and I actually am supportive of the U.S. putting pressure- on both sides (with the Palestinian side, the one that derailed peace more, receiving the most pressure), so he wasn't entirely wrong though he handled the situation badly.

2. I also believe that giving Reform and Conservative Jews in Israel full recognition will only have positive effects- currently, the Orthodox Haredim are making Judaism almost hated for many secular Jews. It's potentially dangerous for those who believe in religion and tradition, especially since the longterm trend might favour secularization like in the rest of the Western World. Many secular Israelis would feel closer to the Jewish tradition if they felt it was more open and pluralistic. It's different in America, which isn't really a greenhouse for Jews like Israel.

3. Switching our alliance to Russia would definitely not be something I'd support. Both because of the moral issue- it would cause the (powerful) LGBT community to turn even more sharply to the left since now Israeli interests would be opposed to LGBT interests. Additionally, it's generally not a good idea to go with the reactionary side in global conflicts. Putin might be strong now, but he won't be there forever.

4. Which brings me to my next point- the Democratic Party. I'm, too, worried about the state of things. We need to have both parties be pro-Israeli, considering how American politics are a pendelum. Right now, the situation is fine- the Senate Democratic Leader is one of Israel's greatest allies in American politics. If the AOC types keep winning, it'll become problematic, and the Democratic youth's anti-Israel views are certainly worrying, but I have hope that the extremism will ebb. But, if the Israeli-Palestinian conflict continues for years more without any resolution in sight, it'll get bad for us. I also don't view the Iran Deal as a sign of anti-Israel Democrats- I'm on the fence, but there are some legitimate arguments that this deal is in our interests. So we gotta accept that we have our differences, and that they won't tear us apart.

5. True Federalist is right about the Hamas issue- they're terrible etc but I, for one, am tired of talking about these cycles.

6. DavidB is correct about Women on the Wall and BLM :) Also, Kingpolen sure has a long memory- I don't even rememer the last time I discussed BLM :P


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 15, 2018, 04:54:41 PM
6. DavidB is correct about Women on the Wall and BLM :)
*snap* This one is preserved for eternity :D Good luck tomorrow!


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on July 15, 2018, 08:48:08 PM
Good luck, ParrotGuy :)



Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: dead0man on July 17, 2018, 08:08:46 AM
also, are we just not going to talk talk about Gaza?  Even after 200 rockets in a day and the largest IDF response since 2014?
now they're murdering falcons in the hopes of causing more environmental damage (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/afp/article-5962163/Israel-tightens-Gaza-blockade-arson-kites-raise-fears-war.html)
Quote
Israel's fire service says around 750 fires have burned some 2,600 hectares (6,400 acres), estimating the damage at millions of shekels (hundreds of thousands of dollars or euros).

The firebombs have mostly been transported by kites and balloons, but Israel's nature authority said a falcon was found on Monday with flammable material tied to its legs.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 18, 2018, 04:17:40 AM
Despite initially claiming that he supports surrogacy for homosexual parents, Netanyahu has once again allied himself with the homophobes and voted against the clause that was supposed to include homosexuals in the new, anti-gay surrogacy law. Who would've thought.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 19, 2018, 02:27:05 AM
A Jewish Conservative Rabbie was arrested and questioned by the police today for the crime of conducting marriage ceremonies outside if the Chief Rabbinate, after the Orthodox Haifa Rabbinic Courthouse filed a complaint against him. This is the first time that the law condemning anyone who conducts wedding ceremonies outside of the Rabbinate for up to two years in prison is enforced. He says that the police knocked on his house's door in 5:30 and took him to the station like the lowliest of criminals.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 19, 2018, 10:37:56 AM
Very good. I like Ben Gurion's principle of "the synagogue I don't pray in is Orthodox". Be as observant (or not) as you want. But don't distort Judaism.

The nation-state bill was adopted, but without the clause regarding segregated communities. Hope Reuven Rivlin is proud of the fact that the Galil's Jewish character is being watered down. What a Zionist ::)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 19, 2018, 10:47:14 AM
Very good. I like Ben Gurion's principle of "the synagogue I don't pray in is Orthodox". Be as observant (or not) as you want. But don't distort Judaism.

You support religious oppression? Because that's purely what they did to this Rabbie by punishing him for conducting a ceremony. It wasn't even recognized by the state- it's just a ceremony.
The Attorney General ordered the police not to arrest this man, and for a good reason. Today we saw Israel come one step closer to theocracy.

Also, my university, the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, declared in an email that they fully support the lgbtq community's struggle for parental rights. This is after many large companies declared that they will give lgbtq workers a day off inthe strike scheduled for Sunday. The university is closed in Sunday due to Tisha B'Av, so they obviously didn't make the same statement, but implied they would if the university worked that day.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Torie on July 19, 2018, 02:22:04 PM
Despite initially claiming that he supports surrogacy for homosexual parents, Netanyahu has once again allied himself with the homophobes and voted against the clause that was supposed to include homosexuals in the new, anti-gay surrogacy law. Who would've thought.

What do you think of the below, which I lifted from the Jerusalem Post? Is it true the bill would have failed if it included homosexuals, and that is why he didn't include it, but he does support the concept and would personally vote for it. Is that all BS?

"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said in a video posted to YouTube that he still supports surrogacy for both mothers and fathers, notwithstanding that he voted against an amendment proposed by Likud MK Amir Ohana granting single men access to surrogacy.

' “Today we voted in favor of a law for mothers. I told MK Ohana ahead of time that I would not support his current amendment because it would topple the law and then mothers would not have access to surrogacy. Despite that, I said that if he introduces a law for fathers, I will support it. This is the right thing to do,” he said."


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on July 19, 2018, 02:25:30 PM
This map shocked Obama.

()

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-map-of-israeli-settlements-that-shocked-barack-obama

This map is misleading, though. There are only a few actually big blocks of settlements which can no longer be dismantled, the rest are scattered and small. There are a lot of empty areas too. But, I'm also worried that the settlements will keep expanding and derail a two-state solution, and thus a liveable Jewish country.

It does make obvious that pretty much in every instance, if there is a choice between inconveniencing the settlers and making life miserable for the Palestinians, the Israel occupation has chosen the latter rather than former.  Israel has chosen to divide the Palestinian areas into hundreds of isolated ghettos, apparently just so that the settlers can go directly from settlement A to settlement B rather than having to take a longer route.

Maps like this are ultimately a bit misleading as they ignore the fact a lot of that area is desert and more of it used to be in the past.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on July 19, 2018, 06:15:24 PM
Maps like this are ultimately a bit misleading as they ignore the fact a lot of that area is desert and more of it used to be in the past.

So if the areas that would change the West Bank from hundreds of isolated ghettos to even just tens of ghettos are just unimportant desert, why not improve the ability of Palestinians to freely move about by giving them at least Area B status?

Also, if you're suggesting by "more of it used to be (desert)" that only Israelis could have pulled that off, please don't.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Velasco on July 19, 2018, 11:35:07 PM
It's amazing the way people still defending the indefensible is willing to distort the crude reality, the ugliness of a military occupation that  lasts more than half a century. Consider allthe cruelty involved in this, the ignominy and the countless violations of basic human rights...

Come on! How anyone can argue about empty spaces, when the key is who controls the access roads? So you claim that everything is alright because not all the land outside the Palestinian ghettos is built settlement area inhabited by the Sons of Jacob. Maybe some fanatic ultranationalists in Israel and some of their supporters outside think that the rest of the world is stupid, Realize that nobody likes to be treated like an idiot. It's all so unpleasant and ugly...


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on July 20, 2018, 04:00:02 PM
Maps like this are ultimately a bit misleading as they ignore the fact a lot of that area is desert and more of it used to be in the past.

So if the areas that would change the West Bank from hundreds of isolated ghettos to even just tens of ghettos are just unimportant desert, why not improve the ability of Palestinians to freely move about by giving them at least Area B status?

Also, if you're suggesting by "more of it used to be (desert)" that only Israelis could have pulled that off, please don't.

I was referring to stuff like this:

() (https://imgflip.com/i/17pocm)via Imgflip Meme Generator (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)

When the reality looks like this:

Satellite image (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Israel/@31.5799409,34.9519092,123599m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x1500492432a7c98b:0x6a6b422013352cba!8m2!3d31.046051!4d34.851612)

Anyway, I made no claim on moral rightness.



Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 20, 2018, 04:39:00 PM
Looks like we're getting a new war.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 20, 2018, 04:46:50 PM
Looks like we're getting a new war.

I hope it'll calm down. Not a good time, especially considering Hamas now has missiles with a range that can hit Jerusalem.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 20, 2018, 04:56:42 PM
Looks like we're getting a new war.
I hope it'll calm down. Not a good time, especially considering Hamas now has missiles with a range that can hit Jerusalem.
I hope so too, but it doesn't look very positive. Appears as if the political wing of Hamas doesn't want a new war but the military wing does. Obviously Israel is going to hit back and hit back hard if this continues. I really hope and pray that a new ground operation won't be necessary. I hate it when so many young soldiers die, it is one of the most awful things in the world. Was in Israel all summer in 2014 and stayed at a place for lone soldiers who lost friends right there and right then. Truly left a deep impact.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 21, 2018, 10:40:56 AM
Looks like we're getting a new war.
No we’re not. Hamas falls apart in the next war and Israel is forced to regain control over Gaza. No one wants that.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 22, 2018, 11:50:27 PM
Widespread protests and a massive rally by the LGBTQ community yesterday. In Jerusalem, police arrested two peaceful protestors, one of whom I personally know. The picture of him, draped by a pride flag with his hands and even legs (wtf?) cuffed is something our foreign ministry will probably not want all the gay tourists from Europe and the US to see :)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 23, 2018, 01:31:38 PM
Widespread protests and a massive rally by the LGBTQ community yesterday. In Jerusalem, police arrested two peaceful protestors, one of whom I personally know. The picture of him, draped by a pride flag with his hands and even legs (wtf?) cuffed is something our foreign ministry will probably not want all the gay tourists from Europe and the US to see :)
He’s a local contender for Meretz, I wasn’t that impressed by him on the news.

Anyway it’s good to have liberal protests, though I personally am against this human trade.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 23, 2018, 01:48:53 PM
Widespread protests and a massive rally by the LGBTQ community yesterday. In Jerusalem, police arrested two peaceful protestors, one of whom I personally know. The picture of him, draped by a pride flag with his hands and even legs (wtf?) cuffed is something our foreign ministry will probably not want all the gay tourists from Europe and the US to see :)
He’s a local contender for Meretz, I wasn’t that impressed by him on the news.

Anyway it’s good to have liberal protests, though I personally am against this human trade.

Yeah, Eyal. He's a law student in the Hebrew University (which does beg the question of how he managed to be so involved in all this with the exams coming at us in full force, lol). He helped us out in draping the Har Hatzofim campus with pride flags etc, a really nice guy. He's clearly going for politics, what with all the Meretz MKs he's hanging around with, so I hope he has a successful career.

Anyway- Labour leader Avi Gabay nominated Hatnua leader Tzipi Livni as leader of the opposition, replacing Herzog (who will head the Jewish Agency). This is a move that will likely keep the ZU unified for the time being.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on July 23, 2018, 02:38:27 PM
She will never f**k off, will she?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 23, 2018, 03:42:51 PM
Widespread protests and a massive rally by the LGBTQ community yesterday. In Jerusalem, police arrested two peaceful protestors, one of whom I personally know. The picture of him, draped by a pride flag with his hands and even legs (wtf?) cuffed is something our foreign ministry will probably not want all the gay tourists from Europe and the US to see :)
He’s a local contender for Meretz, I wasn’t that impressed by him on the news.

Anyway it’s good to have liberal protests, though I personally am against this human trade.

Yeah, Eyal. He's a law student in the Hebrew University (which does beg the question of how he managed to be so involved in all this with the exams coming at us in full force, lol). He helped us out in draping the Har Hatzofim campus with pride flags etc, a really nice guy. He's clearly going for politics, what with all the Meretz MKs he's hanging around with, so I hope he has a successful career.

Anyway- Labour leader Avi Gabay nominated Hatnua leader Tzipi Livni as leader of the opposition, replacing Herzog (who will head the Jewish Agency). This is a move that will likely keep the ZU unified for the time being.
I was once a student at that law faculty. Let’s be honest the course in property law hadn’t changed since the 80’s.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 23, 2018, 03:44:05 PM
She will never f**k off, will she?
Bibi should have just let her be the UN USG and be done with her. Shameless opportunist that she is


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 23, 2018, 03:57:09 PM
Widespread protests and a massive rally by the LGBTQ community yesterday. In Jerusalem, police arrested two peaceful protestors, one of whom I personally know. The picture of him, draped by a pride flag with his hands and even legs (wtf?) cuffed is something our foreign ministry will probably not want all the gay tourists from Europe and the US to see :)
He’s a local contender for Meretz, I wasn’t that impressed by him on the news.

Anyway it’s good to have liberal protests, though I personally am against this human trade.

Yeah, Eyal. He's a law student in the Hebrew University (which does beg the question of how he managed to be so involved in all this with the exams coming at us in full force, lol). He helped us out in draping the Har Hatzofim campus with pride flags etc, a really nice guy. He's clearly going for politics, what with all the Meretz MKs he's hanging around with, so I hope he has a successful career.

Anyway- Labour leader Avi Gabay nominated Hatnua leader Tzipi Livni as leader of the opposition, replacing Herzog (who will head the Jewish Agency). This is a move that will likely keep the ZU unified for the time being.
I was once a student at that law faculty. Let’s be honest the course in property law hadn’t changed since the 80’s.

Not gonna argue- considering my first ex is a law student, I have a grudge on that faculty anyway :P I study Economics and International Relations (yeah, I know) in that uni.



Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 24, 2018, 02:14:11 PM
On a personal note, after I stoppped being active in the party’s convention last year, I’m now also not a member of Meretz for the first time since Beilin. My participation in Israeli politics is now merely as an observer, which is for me quite sad.

Maybe a liberal secular party would form in the future. Who knows


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on July 27, 2018, 12:15:51 PM
Quote from: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44982841
Israel's defence minister says the best way to stop more attacks on Israeli citizens in the occupied West Bank is to expand its settlements.

Avigdor Lieberman announced 400 new homes would be built in Adam, near Ramallah, where a Palestinian fatally stabbed an Israeli man on Thursday.

I'm certain he's glad of an excuse to take more land from Jaba'. I'm not surprised that he's not considering withdrawing from areas with poor security.

I understand the politics involved. To be honest, in his shoes, I might make the same decision, but it's things like this that make me doubt that the final result a century or two from now won't be anything other than Israel being remembered as yet another failed European crusader state.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on July 27, 2018, 02:24:03 PM
The thing is, Israel is going nowhere while the US supports it.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on July 27, 2018, 09:41:15 PM
The thing is, Israel is going nowhere while the US supports it.

And a couple centuries ago they'd have said the Ottoman Empire is going nowhere while the UK supports it against the Czar.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 28, 2018, 11:38:37 AM
MK Baalol resigns over the new basic law. With Herzog soon out we’ll have 2 new MKs in Tiviev (who doesn’t even like Labour anymore) and Moshe Mizrachi who was once an MK and generally a decent fella


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: BudgieForce on July 29, 2018, 10:12:37 AM
The thing is, Israel is going nowhere while the US supports it.

And a couple centuries ago they'd have said the Ottoman Empire is going nowhere while the UK supports it against the Czar.
Quote from: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44982841
Israel's defence minister says the best way to stop more attacks on Israeli citizens in the occupied West Bank is to expand its settlements.

Avigdor Lieberman announced 400 new homes would be built in Adam, near Ramallah, where a Palestinian fatally stabbed an Israeli man on Thursday.

I'm certain he's glad of an excuse to take more land from Jaba'. I'm not surprised that he's not considering withdrawing from areas with poor security.

I understand the politics involved. To be honest, in his shoes, I might make the same decision, but it's things like this that make me doubt that the final result a century or two from now won't be anything other than Israel being remembered as yet another failed European crusader state.

I'm not sure either of your comparisons are very apt towards the current situation @True Federalist.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on July 29, 2018, 10:51:42 AM
The thing is, Israel is going nowhere while the US supports it.

And a couple centuries ago they'd have said the Ottoman Empire is going nowhere while the UK supports it against the Czar.
Quote from: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44982841
Israel's defence minister says the best way to stop more attacks on Israeli citizens in the occupied West Bank is to expand its settlements.

Avigdor Lieberman announced 400 new homes would be built in Adam, near Ramallah, where a Palestinian fatally stabbed an Israeli man on Thursday.

I'm certain he's glad of an excuse to take more land from Jaba'. I'm not surprised that he's not considering withdrawing from areas with poor security.

I understand the politics involved. To be honest, in his shoes, I might make the same decision, but it's things like this that make me doubt that the final result a century or two from now won't be anything other than Israel being remembered as yet another failed European crusader state.

I'm not sure either of your comparisons are very apt towards the current situation @True Federalist.

As I made clear, my pessimism for the continuation of Israel is long term, not short.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 30, 2018, 08:21:50 AM
MK Baalol resigns over the new basic law. With Herzog soon out we’ll have 2 new MKs in Tiviev (who doesn’t even like Labour anymore) and Moshe Mizrachi who was once an MK and generally a decent fella
MK Broshi has sexual misconduct allegations piling up and Gabay and other MKs demand he resigns. We might get Eldad Yaniv as an MK even though he quit the Labour Party last year the maggot


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 30, 2018, 10:58:57 AM
MK Baalol resigns over the new basic law. With Herzog soon out we’ll have 2 new MKs in Tiviev (who doesn’t even like Labour anymore) and Moshe Mizrachi who was once an MK and generally a decent fella
MK Broshi has sexual misconduct allegations piling up and Gabay and other MKs demand he resigns. We might get Eldad Yaniv as an MK even though he quit the Labour Party last year the maggot

Eldad Yaniv? Wow this is a trainwreck lol.
Also, Broshi now refuses to quit and threatens to sue Gabbay if he doesn't apologize. I'm fully behind Gabbay on this one- Broshi has always been slimey and corrupt, and now he proved himself a sexual predator, and dares threaten his party leader? What a POS.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 31, 2018, 07:38:30 AM
MK Baalol resigns over the new basic law. With Herzog soon out we’ll have 2 new MKs in Tiviev (who doesn’t even like Labour anymore) and Moshe Mizrachi who was once an MK and generally a decent fella
MK Broshi has sexual misconduct allegations piling up and Gabay and other MKs demand he resigns. We might get Eldad Yaniv as an MK even though he quit the Labour Party last year the maggot

Eldad Yaniv? Wow this is a trainwreck lol.
Also, Broshi now refuses to quit and threatens to sue Gabbay if he doesn't apologize. I'm fully behind Gabbay on this one- Broshi has always been slimey and corrupt, and now he proved himself a sexual predator, and dares threaten his party leader? What a POS.
Well he should have resigned after grabbing Nahmias-Warbin bum. However, I don't think he needs to resign over allegations 15 years ago.
This is regardless of him being a knob and a politico for the farmers lobby and I'll be glad to see him shipped back to his cattle.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on July 31, 2018, 07:42:51 AM
MK Baalol resigns over the new basic law. With Herzog soon out we’ll have 2 new MKs in Tiviev (who doesn’t even like Labour anymore) and Moshe Mizrachi who was once an MK and generally a decent fella
MK Broshi has sexual misconduct allegations piling up and Gabay and other MKs demand he resigns. We might get Eldad Yaniv as an MK even though he quit the Labour Party last year the maggot

Eldad Yaniv? Wow this is a trainwreck lol.
Also, Broshi now refuses to quit and threatens to sue Gabbay if he doesn't apologize. I'm fully behind Gabbay on this one- Broshi has always been slimey and corrupt, and now he proved himself a sexual predator, and dares threaten his party leader? What a POS.
Well he should have resigned after grabbing Nahmias-Warbin bum. However, I don't think he needs to resign other allegations 15 years ago.
This is regardless of him being a knob and a politico for the farmers lobby and I'll be glad to see shipped back to his cattle.

Yeah, combined with his recent actions it's quite clear that he's still a creep. And I agree with your other assessment of him.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on August 05, 2018, 03:20:14 AM
Livni is being quite active as leader of the opposition. She agreed to be termed as left wing, met all sorts of NGOs, and went on sponsored campaign online.

I wonder if she see Gabbay's weakness as an opportunity to run as head of the ZU by herself. I think that at this point some of Labour's MKs might even embrace the notion.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on August 05, 2018, 03:26:02 AM
Livni is being quite active as leader of the opposition. She agreed to be termed as left wing, met all sorts of NGOs, and went on sponsored campaign online.

I wonder if she see Gabbay's weakness as an opportunity to run as head of the ZU by herself. I think that at this point some of Labour's MKs might even embrace the notion.


If I'll be completely honest, I wouldn't oppose it either. She's not perfect, but at this point she's probably better than Gabbay.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on August 05, 2018, 04:10:48 AM
Livni is being quite active as leader of the opposition. She agreed to be termed as left wing, met all sorts of NGOs, and went on sponsored campaign online.

I wonder if she see Gabbay's weakness as an opportunity to run as head of the ZU by herself. I think that at this point some of Labour's MKs might even embrace the notion.


If I'll be completely honest, I wouldn't oppose it either. She's not perfect, but at this point she's probably better than Gabbay.
True. Shame Labour voters rejected Margalit. Labour literally has no leadership material left in it (sorry Shaffir and Shmoli)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on August 06, 2018, 03:33:53 PM
What's Livni's views on the Palestinian issue?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on August 06, 2018, 03:45:26 PM
What's Livni's views on the Palestinian issue?
She's very focused on making a peace agreement for a 2SS. In terms of views she's probably not that different from most center-left/liberal Israelis and Israeli politicians, but she does stand out in terms of the priority she gives to this issue.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on August 15, 2018, 01:56:16 AM
Mayoral elections are coming up and each of the three big cities present a bland mix that is a microcosms of their political nature

Tel Aviv - a host of candidates from the left or centre left:
Incumbent Ron Holdai - mainstream Labour though his personal opinions are more to the left. I think he got this
Assaf Zamir - his mellow deputy, son of a former mayor, could be characterized as the left wing of Yesh Lapid
Meital Lehavi Meretz - futile run, probably in order to get more council seats (currently the largest faction).
Assah Harel - a leftist TV anchorman and comedian

Jerusalem - a host of candidates from the right and centre-right
MK Zeev Elkin - Likud Minister
Moshe Leon - connected to Lieberman, Shas, and parts of the Likud
Yisso Deitsch - Haredi, but does not gain the support of all of them
Avi Salman - some local Likud activist
MK Rachel Azaria (Kulano) - former councilor, a 'pluralistic' candidate
Offer Berkovitch - current deputy mayor, pluralistic, could be seen as of Yesh Attid

Haifa - a host of bland centrists
Incumbent Yona Yahav - Former MK for Labour, then member of Kadima, now supported by Kulano and YA
Einat Kalish Rotem - supported by Labour, more to the left
Israel Savion - also supported by Labour, centrist
David Atzioni - Young centrist
2-3 other uninteresting centrists.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on August 15, 2018, 02:34:24 AM
Mayoral elections are coming up and each of the three big cities present a bland mix that is a microcosms of their political nature

Tel Aviv - a host of candidates from the left or centre left:
Incumbent Ron Holdai - mainstream Labour though his personal opinions are more to the left. I think he got this
Assaf Zamir - his mellow deputy, son of a former mayor, could be characterized as the left wing of Yesh Lapid
Meital Lehavi Meretz - futile run, probably in order to get more council seats (currently the largest faction).
Assah Harel - a leftist TV anchorman and comedian

Jerusalem - a host of candidates from the right and centre-right
MK Zeev Elkin - Likud Minister
Moshe Leon - connected to Lieberman, Shas, and parts of the Likud
Yisso Deitsch - Haredi, but does not gain the support of all of them
Avi Salman - some local Likud activist
MK Rachel Azaria (Kulano) - former councilor, a 'pluralistic' candidate
Offer Berkovitch - current deputy mayor, pluralistic, could be seen as of Yesh Attid

Jerusalem also has Attorney and social justice activist Yossi Havilio, who's the most left-wing candidate. He aligned himself with the LGBTQ community during the latest round of protests and seems like a favourite of leftist activists, including from Meretz, the community and I guess also Labour.

And isn't Stav Shaffir likely to run for Mayor in TLV?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on August 15, 2018, 02:44:03 AM
Mayoral elections are coming up and each of the three big cities present a bland mix that is a microcosms of their political nature

Tel Aviv - a host of candidates from the left or centre left:
Incumbent Ron Holdai - mainstream Labour though his personal opinions are more to the left. I think he got this
Assaf Zamir - his mellow deputy, son of a former mayor, could be characterized as the left wing of Yesh Lapid
Meital Lehavi Meretz - futile run, probably in order to get more council seats (currently the largest faction).
Assah Harel - a leftist TV anchorman and comedian

Jerusalem - a host of candidates from the right and centre-right
MK Zeev Elkin - Likud Minister
Moshe Leon - connected to Lieberman, Shas, and parts of the Likud
Yisso Deitsch - Haredi, but does not gain the support of all of them
Avi Salman - some local Likud activist
MK Rachel Azaria (Kulano) - former councilor, a 'pluralistic' candidate
Offer Berkovitch - current deputy mayor, pluralistic, could be seen as of Yesh Attid

Jerusalem also has Attorney and social justice activist Yossi Havilio, who's the most left-wing candidate. He aligned himself with the LGBTQ community during the latest round of protests and seems like a favourite of leftist activists, including from Meretz, the community and I guess also Labour.

And isn't Stav Shaffir likely to run for Mayor in TLV?
Havilio gets less than 5% of the vote. Not really an interesting candidate

Shaffir hadn't announced anything yet, she won't get funding from Labour as Holdai is their man, and I can't see her getting anything of it. I think she'll back down
 
Also, I think MK Nachman Shai is running in Jerusalem, but he's been very quiet since announcing.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on August 15, 2018, 02:54:24 AM
Mayoral elections are coming up and each of the three big cities present a bland mix that is a microcosms of their political nature

Tel Aviv - a host of candidates from the left or centre left:
Incumbent Ron Holdai - mainstream Labour though his personal opinions are more to the left. I think he got this
Assaf Zamir - his mellow deputy, son of a former mayor, could be characterized as the left wing of Yesh Lapid
Meital Lehavi Meretz - futile run, probably in order to get more council seats (currently the largest faction).
Assah Harel - a leftist TV anchorman and comedian

Jerusalem - a host of candidates from the right and centre-right
MK Zeev Elkin - Likud Minister
Moshe Leon - connected to Lieberman, Shas, and parts of the Likud
Yisso Deitsch - Haredi, but does not gain the support of all of them
Avi Salman - some local Likud activist
MK Rachel Azaria (Kulano) - former councilor, a 'pluralistic' candidate
Offer Berkovitch - current deputy mayor, pluralistic, could be seen as of Yesh Attid

Jerusalem also has Attorney and social justice activist Yossi Havilio, who's the most left-wing candidate. He aligned himself with the LGBTQ community during the latest round of protests and seems like a favourite of leftist activists, including from Meretz, the community and I guess also Labour.

And isn't Stav Shaffir likely to run for Mayor in TLV?
Havilio gets less than 5% of the vote. Not really an interesting candidate

Shaffir hadn't announced anything yet, she won't get funding from Labour as Holdai is their man, and I can't see her getting anything of it. I think she'll back down
 
Also, I think MK Nachman Shai is running in Jerusalem, but he's been very quiet since announcing.

Well, I've seen quite a lot Havilio signs- probably as much as Elkin, Azaria (whose bus signs are more often than not torn by hateful Haredi fanatics) and Leon. He probably will get less than 5%, but there clearly is enthusiasm for him in a very small left-wing circle.
Btw, Salman is the loudest in his bigotry and seems like he's positioning himself to get support from socially conservative right-wingers. He made a baseless accusation that LGBTQ activists burned a door in his campaign HQ and repeatedly attacked the community. I remember when he was asked about the Pride Parade, he said he's against it and made an outrageous lie that he spoke to leaders of the Jerusalem LGBTQ organizations who told them they agree because it doesn't fit the city or whatever. His efforts, I guess, will be ultimately futile because Elkin will most likely gain most of the bigot support. If I had to make a prediction, Elkin will probably win- Leon is probably meh for most people at this point, and the center-right-center-left vote is split between Berkovitch, Azaria and Havilio.

As for Shaffir- I agree running doesn't make much sense. If I had to guess, she might be making these noises to position herself for a (likely successful, if it's in 4 years) campaign when Holdai retires.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on August 15, 2018, 04:51:10 AM
Who will you vote for, Parrotguy? And when exactly will these elections take place?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on August 15, 2018, 05:15:33 AM
Who will you vote for, Parrotguy? And when exactly will these elections take place?

October 30th. And I'm not voting- my official residency is in Ma'alot (which does help because I got a scholarship for all the money I spend on public transportation :P), I just study in Jerusalem. I'm obviously not going to make the trip to Ma'alot to vote in the election there.
If I was eligible in Jerusalem, I'd probably vote for Havilio (or potentially Berkovitch if he had any chance of winning, which I doubt).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: BudgieForce on August 15, 2018, 07:33:00 PM
I wish Israel were better at Public Relations. Even the diaspora are finding it difficult to defend things like the settlements and Gaza. God forbid in 20 years, the democratic party becomes anti-Israel and comes into power. I dont want to see Israel all alone again.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on August 16, 2018, 02:30:05 AM
Gaza is understandable, but I can't support the settlements.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on August 16, 2018, 06:40:23 AM
To me, Gaza is much worse - definitely not supporting Hamas here, but it genuinely seems like hell on earth and I could certainly understand why people would feel very angry and militant if confined there.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on August 16, 2018, 06:41:49 AM
Getting angry and militant unfortunately tends to get you killed when facing superior force.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on August 16, 2018, 06:45:43 AM
Getting angry and militant unfortunately tends to get you killed when facing superior force.

Also, Gaza is geniuenly a place with potential. If Hamas hadn't spent all the the support and money they received on weapons meant to murder Israeli citizens, Gaza could've been a good place to live. So if the answer to that is spending more money on getting angry and militant and murdering Israelis, what should Israel do?
Yeah, I agree with you- the settlements are much, much harder to justify.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on August 16, 2018, 06:50:23 AM
What potential does Gaza actually have?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on August 16, 2018, 09:29:54 AM
Getting angry and militant unfortunately tends to get you killed when facing superior force.

Also, Gaza is geniuenly a place with potential. If Hamas hadn't spent all the the support and money they received on weapons meant to murder Israeli citizens, Gaza could've been a good place to live. So if the answer to that is spending more money on getting angry and militant and murdering Israelis, what should Israel do?
Yeah, I agree with you- the settlements are much, much harder to justify.
No it’s not. It had a nice beach but that’s it, it was a sh**t hole in 90’s before Hamas and even the PA, and it only got worse since. Even more over populated, overtly religious, ramshackle, with absolutely no free space to build In.

Gaza is a metastasizing tumor that no one can chop off. The only hope is a sea and airport with Egypt giving swathes of land in Sinai to move some population there.

I’m sorry but the whole Singapore of the ME is utter bollocks, everyone who has been there know it. And the sad thing is everyone knew it was coming since48


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on August 16, 2018, 09:37:14 AM
Getting angry and militant unfortunately tends to get you killed when facing superior force.

Also, Gaza is geniuenly a place with potential. If Hamas hadn't spent all the the support and money they received on weapons meant to murder Israeli citizens, Gaza could've been a good place to live. So if the answer to that is spending more money on getting angry and militant and murdering Israelis, what should Israel do?
Yeah, I agree with you- the settlements are much, much harder to justify.
Not it’s not. It had a nice beach but that’s it, it was a sh**t hole in 90’s before Hamas and even the PA, and it only got worse since. Even more over populated, overtly religious, ramshackle, with absolutely no free space to build In.

Gaza is a metastasizing tumor that no one can chop off. The only hope is a sea and airport with Egypt giving swathes of land in Sinai to move some population there.

I’m sorry but the whole Singapore of the ME is utter bollocks, everyone who has been there know it. And the sad thing is everyone knew it was coming since48

Fair. But I still don't see how all that delegitimizes self-defence by the Israeli army, against any threat to Israeli citizens that comes out of it. Defending the citizens is one of the most important roles of the government.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Intell on August 16, 2018, 09:52:30 AM
I don't even really have a major problem with Isreali action on Gaza though I feel it is definitely too disproportionate. The settlements and Isreal actions in the Westbank I can see no justification for.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on August 16, 2018, 10:00:53 AM
I don't even really have a major problem with Isreali action on Gaza though I feel it is definitely too disproportionate. The settlements and Isreal actions in the Westbank I can see no justification for.

I find this position much more legitimate than that of many left-wing critics of Israel. If this was the bulk of the criticism, I'd be much more sympathetic to anti-Israeli leftists, but as it stands, the focus on Gaza reveals many of these critics to deny Israel's right to defend itself and thus exist, and specifically target Israel's actions there while ignoring, or focusing less, on the actions of numerous other western countries against targets much further from their borders. This is an indication that much of this criticism stems from the fact that Israel is the Jewish state.

The settlements, however, are something else- I also find them hard to defend, especially the radical, new ones which are basically a bunch of caravans holding the government by its balls. Though, of course, some settlement criticisms are also blatantly anti-Jewish, such as that of the BDS.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Intell on August 16, 2018, 10:20:15 AM
I don't even really have a major problem with Isreali action on Gaza though I feel it is definitely too disproportionate. The settlements and Isreal actions in the Westbank I can see no justification for.

I find this position much more legitimate than that of many left-wing critics of Israel. If this was the bulk of the criticism, I'd be much more sympathetic to anti-Israeli leftists, but as it stands, the focus on Gaza reveals many of these critics to deny Israel's right to defend itself and thus exist, and specifically target Israel's actions there while ignoring, or focusing less, on the actions of numerous other western countries against targets much further from their borders. This is an indication that much of this criticism stems from the fact that Israel is the Jewish state.

The settlements, however, are something else- I also find them hard to defend, especially the radical, new ones which are basically a bunch of caravans holding the government by its balls. Though, of course, some settlement criticisms are also blatantly anti-Jewish, such as that of the BDS.

I feel like that is the soft-left criticism of Israel vs the hard left criticism of Israel aka Corbyn. I would have more in common ideologically with the former in the past at least though have to support the latter.

By soft left, I am referring to the more moderate wing of the left-wing or center of social democratic parties.




Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on August 16, 2018, 12:07:19 PM
Even more over populated, overtly religious, ramshackle, with absolutely no free space to build In.


There's some farmland you could use... but then again feeding people is a problem. What do they grow there anyway?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Kingpoleon on August 16, 2018, 01:00:31 PM
Getting angry and militant unfortunately tends to get you killed when facing superior force.

Also, Gaza is geniuenly a place with potential. If Hamas hadn't spent all the the support and money they received on weapons meant to murder Israeli citizens, Gaza could've been a good place to live. So if the answer to that is spending more money on getting angry and militant and murdering Israelis, what should Israel do?
Yeah, I agree with you- the settlements are much, much harder to justify.

Would you support the handing over of roads, water/electronic necessities, and settlements to Palestine?
This map is unacceptable. (https://fmep.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/settlers_plan_for_palestinian_authority.gif)

I support the right of Israel to exist and I support the rights of Palestinians. Peace must be sustained and democracy normalized for Israelis and Palestinians alike.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on August 16, 2018, 01:18:40 PM
Getting angry and militant unfortunately tends to get you killed when facing superior force.

Also, Gaza is geniuenly a place with potential. If Hamas hadn't spent all the the support and money they received on weapons meant to murder Israeli citizens, Gaza could've been a good place to live. So if the answer to that is spending more money on getting angry and militant and murdering Israelis, what should Israel do?
Yeah, I agree with you- the settlements are much, much harder to justify.

Would you support the handing over of roads, water/electronic necessities, and settlements to Palestine?
This map is unacceptable. (https://fmep.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/settlers_plan_for_palestinian_authority.gif)

I support the right of Israel to exist and I support the rights of Palestinians. Peace must be sustained and democracy normalized for Israelis and Palestinians alike.

Roads, water\electronic necessities? Of course. I subscribe to the genral liberal idea that every country needs to have "welfare borders"- you can't let a potential Palestinian country NOT have the necessities it needs. As for settlements- no, I refuse to leave Jews to their fate amongst a hostile population. In a possible agreement, many tiny and small settlements would, unfourtunately, have to be dismantled. The large population centers like Ariel, Gush Etzion etc have to be handed over to Israel in exchange for other territories.

I'm a pragmatist- I'm willing to compromise on many issues truly important to a potential Palestinian country, but they'll have to compromise on issues important to Israel, giving up the right of return a very important one.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on August 16, 2018, 01:24:26 PM
I'm a pragmatist- I'm willing to compromise on many issues truly important to a potential Palestinian country, but they'll have to compromise on issues important to Israel, giving up the right of return a very important one.
I assume you mean a right to return to Israel "proper" (which they currently don't have in the first place, and rightly so) as opposed to a right of return to hypothetical "Palestine"?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on August 16, 2018, 01:32:17 PM
I'm a pragmatist- I'm willing to compromise on many issues truly important to a potential Palestinian country, but they'll have to compromise on issues important to Israel, giving up the right of return a very important one.
I assume you mean a right to return to Israel "proper" (which they currently don't have in the first place, and rightly so) as opposed to a right of return to hypothetical "Palestine"?

Of course, I don't think we should dictate the hypothetical Palestine's immigration laws- in the same way they can't dictate ours.
Sovereignity is also a reason I'm opposed to demanding a demilitarized Palestine- it's not only unfair, unsustainable and unrealistic, but also outright damaging since Israel will never be threatened by a Palestinian army, rather by terrorist organizations which will just flourish in a demilitarized Palestine.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on August 16, 2018, 03:07:57 PM
It wouldn't be threatened by a Palestinian army, but the concern is - and it would require a change of government in Jordan of course - that it would be used as a forward base for a large Arab attack.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on August 16, 2018, 03:10:38 PM
It wouldn't be threatened by a Palestinian army, but the concern is - and it would require a change of government in Jordan of course - that it would be used as a forward base for a large Arab attack.

Eh, I'm not afraid of that. If they want to get aggressive, they can bring it on- we'll crush them like always. But I think the Arabic countries learned, by now, that it's not the way to go. What I do fear is the erosion of Israeli society and the bitter divisions caused, in a large part, by the ongoing conflict.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on August 16, 2018, 04:59:48 PM
Even more over populated, overtly religious, ramshackle, with absolutely no free space to build In.


There's some farmland you could use... but then again feeding people is a problem. What do they grow there anyway?
The farmland there is tiny (especially compared to the urban area) and produces small amount of cucumbers and such. Definitely nothing to feed the population there. And definitely not enough to build the thousands of new home needed for the locals


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on August 17, 2018, 12:39:16 AM
It wouldn't be threatened by a Palestinian army, but the concern is - and it would require a change of government in Jordan of course - that it would be used as a forward base for a large Arab attack.

Eh, I'm not afraid of that. If they want to get aggressive, they can bring it on- we'll crush them like always. But I think the Arabic countries learned, by now, that it's not the way to go. What I do fear is the erosion of Israeli society and the bitter divisions caused, in a large part, by the ongoing conflict.

What they've learned is that it's not the way to go now.  However, the idea that Israel {or any other country) will indefinitely maintain superiority in military technology and training is contrary to all of recorded history. Sooner or later (just not anytime soon) the Arabs will reach parity in technology and training. At that point, the Arab advantage in territory and population will mean Israel would have a tough time winning a war, though for some time after that point Israel would be able to make the cost of war such that even if Israel lost, the Arabs wouldn't really win either. However, Israeli policy at times seems determined to make it such that the Arabs wouldn't mind that if it finally got rid of the State of Israel.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on August 17, 2018, 04:47:42 AM
Israel already can make the cost of war too high for Arabs - it's got nuclear weapons.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on August 17, 2018, 10:44:55 AM
Israel already can make the cost of war too high for Arabs - it's got nuclear weapons.
If it can get them on target.  Imagine if the Arabs had something like Iron Dome and an effective air force plus atom bombs of their own.  That's not anything that'll happen in our lifetimes, but never is a very long time.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on August 17, 2018, 11:56:41 AM
Israel already can make the cost of war too high for Arabs - it's got nuclear weapons.
If it can get them on target.  Imagine if the Arabs had something like Iron Dome and an effective air force plus atom bombs of their own.  That's not anything that'll happen in our lifetimes, but never is a very long time.
Let’s suppose they do, it’s still unlikely they’ll achieve the political unity required to be surpass the Israeli edge. Even when we were almost on parity and they were almost United through Nasser that wasn’t enough.

The Arabs will never be a true existential threat to Israel (or the region), it’s the Iranians and the Turks down the road.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on August 17, 2018, 01:34:25 PM
Israel already can make the cost of war too high for Arabs - it's got nuclear weapons.
If it can get them on target.  Imagine if the Arabs had something like Iron Dome and an effective air force plus atom bombs of their own.  That's not anything that'll happen in our lifetimes, but never is a very long time.
Let’s suppose they do, it’s still unlikely they’ll achieve the political unity required to be surpass the Israeli edge. Even when we were almost on parity and they were almost United through Nasser that wasn’t enough.

The Arabs will never be a true existential threat to Israel (or the region), it’s the Iranians and the Turks down the road.

Israel's existential problem is it can't ever afford to lose a war, while the Arabs can.  I don't see the Turks trying to reestablish the Ottoman Caliphate.  Not even Erdogan is that crazy. Potentially the Iranians might try to get revenge for Purim, but Iran is more focused on dealing with the Sunni at the moment.  Israel is more a useful scapegoat and a way for Iran to show that Shias are more devoted than Sunnis than a central focus of Iran.  (Not that not being the focus makes Iran any less of a threat to Israel. If anything, it makes Iran more of a threat since they are less likely to do anything unless they think it'll actually work.)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on August 17, 2018, 04:46:13 PM
Israel already can make the cost of war too high for Arabs - it's got nuclear weapons.
If it can get them on target.  Imagine if the Arabs had something like Iron Dome and an effective air force plus atom bombs of their own.  That's not anything that'll happen in our lifetimes, but never is a very long time.
Let’s suppose they do, it’s still unlikely they’ll achieve the political unity required to be surpass the Israeli edge. Even when we were almost on parity and they were almost United through Nasser that wasn’t enough.

The Arabs will never be a true existential threat to Israel (or the region), it’s the Iranians and the Turks down the road.

Israel's existential problem is it can't ever afford to lose a war, while the Arabs can.  I don't see the Turks trying to reestablish the Ottoman Caliphate.  Not even Erdogan is that crazy. Potentially the Iranians might try to get revenge for Purim, but Iran is more focused on dealing with the Sunni at the moment.  Israel is more a useful scapegoat and a way for Iran to show that Shias are more devoted than Sunnis than a central focus of Iran.  (Not that not being the focus makes Iran any less of a threat to Israel. If anything, it makes Iran more of a threat since they are less likely to do anything unless they think it'll actually work.)
We lost the 2006 war and nothing happened. Losing a war doesn’t mean unconditional surrender anymore.

And I was talking about the very long run regarding Turkey


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on August 17, 2018, 09:03:28 PM
Israel already can make the cost of war too high for Arabs - it's got nuclear weapons.
If it can get them on target.  Imagine if the Arabs had something like Iron Dome and an effective air force plus atom bombs of their own.  That's not anything that'll happen in our lifetimes, but never is a very long time.
Let’s suppose they do, it’s still unlikely they’ll achieve the political unity required to be surpass the Israeli edge. Even when we were almost on parity and they were almost United through Nasser that wasn’t enough.

The Arabs will never be a true existential threat to Israel (or the region), it’s the Iranians and the Turks down the road.

Israel's existential problem is it can't ever afford to lose a war, while the Arabs can.  I don't see the Turks trying to reestablish the Ottoman Caliphate.  Not even Erdogan is that crazy. Potentially the Iranians might try to get revenge for Purim, but Iran is more focused on dealing with the Sunni at the moment.  Israel is more a useful scapegoat and a way for Iran to show that Shias are more devoted than Sunnis than a central focus of Iran.  (Not that not being the focus makes Iran any less of a threat to Israel. If anything, it makes Iran more of a threat since they are less likely to do anything unless they think it'll actually work.)
We lost the 2006 war and nothing happened. Losing a war doesn’t mean unconditional surrender anymore.

And I was talking about the very long run regarding Turkey

Israel lost that war in the same sense as the US lost the Vietnam War.  Israel didn't achieve its intended objectives, but considering that the IDF returned home rather than reoccupied lost territory after the cease-fire, it is not a loss like Poland 1939, France 1940, Germany 1945, or ROC 1948 were.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on August 18, 2018, 04:40:47 AM
Israel already can make the cost of war too high for Arabs - it's got nuclear weapons.
If it can get them on target.  Imagine if the Arabs had something like Iron Dome and an effective air force plus atom bombs of their own.  That's not anything that'll happen in our lifetimes, but never is a very long time.
Let’s suppose they do, it’s still unlikely they’ll achieve the political unity required to be surpass the Israeli edge. Even when we were almost on parity and they were almost United through Nasser that wasn’t enough.

The Arabs will never be a true existential threat to Israel (or the region), it’s the Iranians and the Turks down the road.

Israel's existential problem is it can't ever afford to lose a war, while the Arabs can.  I don't see the Turks trying to reestablish the Ottoman Caliphate.  Not even Erdogan is that crazy. Potentially the Iranians might try to get revenge for Purim, but Iran is more focused on dealing with the Sunni at the moment.  Israel is more a useful scapegoat and a way for Iran to show that Shias are more devoted than Sunnis than a central focus of Iran.  (Not that not being the focus makes Iran any less of a threat to Israel. If anything, it makes Iran more of a threat since they are less likely to do anything unless they think it'll actually work.)
We lost the 2006 war and nothing happened. Losing a war doesn’t mean unconditional surrender anymore.

And I was talking about the very long run regarding Turkey

Israel lost that war in the same sense as the US lost the Vietnam War.  Israel didn't achieve its intended objectives, but considering that the IDF returned home rather than reoccupied lost territory after the cease-fire, it is not a loss like Poland 1939, France 1940, Germany 1945, or ROC 1948 were.
Losing wars like that is the outlier not the standard now


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on August 18, 2018, 09:27:23 AM
Israel lost that war (the 2006 war) in the same sense as the US lost the Vietnam War.  Israel didn't achieve its intended objectives, but considering that the IDF returned home rather than reoccupied lost territory after the cease-fire, it is not a loss like Poland 1939, France 1940, Germany 1945, or ROC 1948 were.
Losing wars like that is the outlier not the standard now

Agreed, but that is what Israel faced in 1948 and potentially 1973 tho that wasn't the stated Arab goal of the Yom Kippur War. Other than those two wars, Israel hasn't faced an actual existential threat, just the consequences of living near neighbors who really wish it wasn't there but know they don't have the strength to get rid of Israel.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on August 18, 2018, 11:58:38 AM
[quote author=True Federalist link=topic=142845.msg6361967#msg6361967 date=1534557808
Israel lost that war (the 2006 war) in the same sense as the US lost the Vietnam War.  Israel didn't achieve its intended objectives, but considering that the IDF returned home rather than reoccupied lost territory after the cease-fire, it is not a loss like Poland 1939, France 1940, Germany 1945, or ROC 1948 were.
Losing wars like that is the outlier not the standard now

Agreed, but that is what Israel faced in 1948 and potentially 1973 tho that wasn't the stated Arab goal of the Yom Kippur War. Other than those two wars, Israel hasn't faced an actual existential threat, just the consequences of living near neighbors who really wish it wasn't there but know they don't have the strength to get rid of Israel.
[/quote]
48 was different. But even if the line would broken in 73 Egypt would have sitting ducks once they tried to get out of the SAM umbrella for 450 km of open desert roads. Syria wouldn’t be able to push beyond the Heights anyhow


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on August 22, 2018, 01:40:35 PM
A little controversy from the last couple days that shows just how goddamn backwards our country is:

A bridge is supposed to be built in the most travesed road in the country, to make life much easier for people who want to walk through. They decided that it's impossible to shut down this road during the week, so they'd do it in weekends. The Haredi Rabbies started sending their brainwashed zombies to protest, and the weakling Likud Minister Yisrael Katz immediately ordered the works in the weekend stopped. Now, the works will be suspended in half a year (a way of saying "let the next government handle it").

So, to summarize, important works to improve our national infaustracture were halted because of a bunch of theocratic 100 year-olds. Honestly, if ever the secular Israelis get the power to enforce our policies unimpended by religious\haredi parties, I'd support a zero-thoughtfulness policy- send public transportation through their neighbourhoods during weekends, take down fences that prevent cars from driving through their neighbourhoods in shabbat, and if they try violence, respond appropriately. I'm sick and tired of this tyrannous, theocratic population and as they showed by passing a law allowing their Interior Minister to prevent secular municipalities from letting businesses open during shabbat, and their forceful shutdown of works in the secular fortress of Israel (Tel Aviv), they clearly don't have any regard for OUR way of life. We should have none for theirs.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: NewYorkExpress on August 31, 2018, 01:36:47 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/30/middleeast/israel-case-4000-sara-netanyahu/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/30/middleeast/israel-case-4000-sara-netanyahu/index.html)

Quote
Sara Netanyahu, the wife of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, is suspected of bribery in Case 4000, one of the ongoing investigations facing the Israeli leader, a police investigator said at a court hearing Thursday morning.

One of the biggest cases facing Israel's Prime Minister, Case 4000 deals with the relationship between the Ministry of Communications -- at a time when Netanyahu held the position of communications minister alongside the premiership -- and Israeli telecommunications firm Bezeq.

Prosecutors say Benjamin Netanyahu advanced regulatory benefits worth up to 1 billion shekels (approximately $280 million) to Shaul Elovitch, Netanyahu's friend and Bezeq's controlling shareholder. In exchange, prosecutors say Elovitch gave Netanyahu favorable news coverage on an online news site he owned called Walla! News.

Thursday's hearing, held in the Tel Aviv Magistrate's Court, was about Elovitch's assets, which have been frozen by police. Elovitch, who proclaims his innocence, is suspected of fraud, bribery, money laundering, corporate breach of trust, and more.

Questioned by Elovitch's lawyers, police investigator Uri Kanar said, "(Sara Netanyahu) is a suspect in the case. She was interrogated under caution for bribery."[

"Correct."

"The claim, if I understand it, is that Mrs. Netanyahu commits, together with the Prime Minister, a felony of taking bribes. Is that correct?"

"Correct."

In response to the statements made in court, the Netanyahu family released a statement dismissing the allegations.

"What is new in this absurd suspicion? So, the police said it. These things never happened," the statement said./quote]

Is this, in addition to the accusations against her husband, going to be enough to force the Prime Minister out?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Wolf on September 01, 2018, 05:59:07 PM
Gaza is understandable, but I can't support the settlements.
The settlements--or at least the large ones--are useful because they help prevent overcrowding in Israel proper. Israel has a rapidly growing population and is thus going to have a more and more severe overpopulation problem as time goes on. Thus, redirecting some of Israel's population growth towards the settlement appears to be a good idea.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Wolf on September 01, 2018, 05:59:44 PM
Yeah, I agree with you- the settlements are much, much harder to justify.
Two words: Living space.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on September 02, 2018, 03:35:16 AM
Oh great a troll poster. IQ and Living Space (I assume you know what it refers to?)

I'll just ignore your presence hoping you disappear


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on September 02, 2018, 02:15:37 PM
Oh great a troll poster. IQ and Living Space (I assume you know what it refers to?)

I'll just ignore your presence hoping you disappear

He's already been banned as a sock.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on September 02, 2018, 02:29:49 PM
How easy would land reclamation from the Med be?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: NewYorkExpress on September 12, 2018, 01:08:51 PM
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/ny-state-senate-candidate-julia-salazar-netanyahu-aide-sexually-assaulted-n908721 (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/ny-state-senate-candidate-julia-salazar-netanyahu-aide-sexually-assaulted-n908721)

Quote
A spokesman for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was accused of sexual assault by New York state senate candidate Julia Salazar on Tuesday.

David Keyes was also described as a "sexual predator" who "would not stop pushing himself on me" by a Wall Street Journal reporter who went public after Salazar's statement.

Keyes, who is Netanyahu's spokesman for foreign media, denies both allegations.

Salazar, 27, said she was only coming forward because she was about to be "outed" in a news story concerning the alleged incident five years ago.

A campaign spokesman, Michael Kinnucan, told The Associated Press that Salazar was forced to go public after being contacted by a reporter from conservative website The Daily Caller.

That website ran a story Tuesday confirming it had pushed Salazar's campaign to confirm her identity as an alleged victim of sexual assault.

After Salazar posted her statement, Shayndi Raice, a news reporter with The Wall Street Journal, retweeted the message with her own comment.

"I also had a terrible encounter with David Keyes once and 100 percent believe her," Raice wrote. "I knew this would come out about him at some point."

She alleged that Keyes "kept pushing himself on me" and had "absolutely no conception of the word no."

Raice added that "I don’t know that I would use the word victim about myself" because "I was able to extricate myself quickly."

"But I knew as I walked away I had encountered a predator," she added.

Raice said the alleged incident involving her occurred before Keyes worked with Netanyahu, but did not give further details about where it happened.

At this point, it's only going to get worse for Netanyahu.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on September 13, 2018, 01:39:23 PM
How easy would land reclamation from the Med be?
Technically? no idea, i supposed it wouldn't be too hard but it will have a damaging affects to coasts all the way up to Turkey (the sand sweep from the nile goes along the shoreline)

Politically, I don't think neither Israel or Egypt will mind.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: NewYorkExpress on September 16, 2018, 06:06:06 PM
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/09/16/netanyahu-dermer-israel-ambassador-825863 (https://www.politico.com/story/2018/09/16/netanyahu-dermer-israel-ambassador-825863)

Quote
An Israeli opposition lawmaker on Sunday called on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to dismiss his ambassador to the United States for failing to report sexual assault allegations against a top Netanyahu aide, ballooning an already embarrassing scandal for the Israeli leader.

Karin Elharrar of the centrist Yesh Atid party said Ron Dermer should be recalled from Washington for not reporting the warnings he received about David Keyes, Netanyahu’s spokesman to foreign media. She also lashed out at Netanyahu himself for staying mum on an issue that has engulfed his close associates.


“His silence is thundering. I would expect from the prime minister a clear condemnation, if not at least a mention that the allegations were being looked into,” Elharrar told The Associated Press. “Who if not the prime minister should be an example on this matter? It’s time that this issue of sexual harassment be at the top of his agenda.”

Last week, Julia Salazar, a candidate for New York’s state Senate, accused Keyes of sexually assaulting her five years ago. Wall Street Journal reporter Shayndi Raice tweeted she too had a “terrible encounter” with Keyes before he became Netanyahu’s spokesman. She described him as a “predator” and someone who had “absolutely no conception of the word ‘no.’”

At least a dozen other women have since come forward with varying allegations, some of which are said to have been committed since Keyes took up his current position in early 2016. Keyes, 34, denies the allegations, saying all “are deeply misleading and many of them are categorically false.” Keyes says he has taken a leave of absence amid the uproar to try and clear his name.

But the scandal has since spread to the rest of Netanyahu’s inner circle, which has previously been rocked with accusations of sexual improprieties. Natan Eshel, a former top aide, was forced to resign in 2012 after allegations emerged that he harassed and intimidated a woman in the prime minister’s office, including taking pictures up her skirt. Earlier this year, Netanyahu’s son Yair came under fire after a recording emerged of him joyriding at taxpayer expense to Tel Aviv strip clubs and making misogynistic comments about strippers, waitresses and other women.

What makes anyone think that Netanyahu or anyone else in the Israeli Cabinet cares about sexual harassment or Women's rights?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on September 20, 2018, 05:17:24 AM
What makes anyone think that Netanyahu or anyone else in the Israeli Cabinet cares about sexual harassment or Women's rights?
Let's rephrase this to show you how absurd this sounds:

- Spokesman of PM has allegedly committed sexual assault and hasn't yet been dismissed, probably because nothing's been proven yet
- Six years ago, one Netanyahu aide was dismissed over sexual harassment
- Netanyahu's 20-something son, with no professional relationship to the government whatsoever, made a few "locker-room comments" to his friends when he went out in some Tel Aviv nightclub, and this was recorded because he's the PM's son

Clearly this means Netanyahu and nobody else in his entire government, which consists of six different parties, cares about women's rights!1!1!!!!!11!1!1!


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on September 20, 2018, 06:50:15 PM
The municipal elections are happening in a month and a bit so I stated a thread in the elections board:

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=302017.0 (https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=302017.0)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on September 21, 2018, 06:44:05 AM
Syrians forces shot down a Russian jet while Israel was dropping bombs on Iranians and we didn't talk about it?

It's a crazy world and lots of other things were going on. Also, Israel has conducted so many airstrikes in Syria now it's no longer news.

The shootdown appears to have been a major foul-up by Syrian Air Defence.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on September 28, 2018, 10:30:42 AM
Syrians forces shot down a Russian jet while Israel was dropping bombs on Iranians and we didn't talk about it?

It's a crazy world and lots of other things were going on. Also, Israel has conducted so many airstrikes in Syria now it's no longer news.

The shootdown appears to have been a major foul-up by Syrian Air Defence.

The Russians initially blamed it on Israel and their media filled up with fire-breathing antisemitism, then Putin said it's an accident and their media stopped talking about it. Now they flip-flopped yet again and are blaming it on Israel. However, their punishment of "giving Syria S-300 anti-air missiles" is BS- this defence system will go only to Russian forces to defend themselves. It might limit the range of operations a bit, but the IDF is prepared for it.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on September 28, 2018, 04:37:21 PM
The IDF now has F-35s, so the S-300 isn't much use there.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on September 28, 2018, 08:29:56 PM
The IDF now has F-35s, so the S-300 isn't much use there.

They have all of 9 F-35s in service at present, tho with more on the way. Plus the F-35 isn't perfect in its stealth.A full scale S-300 deployment would be a serious impediment to the way the IDF does things, but not a game changer.  Now if the Russians were to deploy the S-400, then the excrement would be hitting the rotating blade.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: dead0man on September 29, 2018, 07:40:08 AM
The IDF now has F-35s, so the S-300 isn't much use there.

They have all of 9 F-35s in service at present, tho with more on the way. Plus the F-35 isn't perfect in its stealth.A full scale S-300 deployment would be a serious impediment to the way the IDF does things, but not a game changer.  Now if the Russians were to deploy the S-400, then the excrement would be hitting the rotating blade.
There are two in Syria right now (at least).  cite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-400_missile_system#Syria)
Quote
On 25 November 2015, the Russian government announced it would deploy S-400 in Syria in response of the downing of its SU-24 jet by Turkey.[123] On 26 November 2015, such deployment was reported by official Russian news media to have been carried out.[124] The first S-400 system was reportedly installed at Humaymim Air Base in Latakia Governorate.[125]

Between April and July 2017, a second S-400 system was deployed 13 km northwest of Masyaf, Hama Governorate.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on September 29, 2018, 08:25:31 AM
The IDF now has F-35s, so the S-300 isn't much use there.
#war isn't a computer game.

The S300 constrains the actions of the F15I who are the core jet of the AF, their long range could cause trouble to close air support to ground operations. and numerous other problems.
It's not the game changer, but it definitely makes aerial superiority more challenging 


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: dead0man on September 29, 2018, 08:33:19 AM
The IDF now has F-35s, so the S-300 isn't much use there.
#war isn't a computer game.

The S300 constrains the actions of the F15I who are the core jet of the AF, their long range could cause trouble to close air support to ground operations. and numerous other problems.
It's not the game changer, but it definitely makes aerial superiority more challenging 
only during soft war like is going on now.  If the sh**t were to actually hit the fan, you've got to imagine the SAM sites will be one of the first things hit.  I have air force and Israeli biases admittedly, but I have full faith the IAF would have complete air superiority over any potential local adversaries within 12 hours of any serious conflict.  Allowing the F15s to do what they do best.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on September 29, 2018, 03:35:52 PM
The IDF now has F-35s, so the S-300 isn't much use there.

They have all of 9 F-35s in service at present, tho with more on the way. Plus the F-35 isn't perfect in its stealth.A full scale S-300 deployment would be a serious impediment to the way the IDF does things, but not a game changer.  Now if the Russians were to deploy the S-400, then the excrement would be hitting the rotating blade.
There are two in Syria right now (at least).

Yeah, but those remain in Russian hands, it's not as if they're handing them over to the Syrians.  Nor would it make much sense for them to do so right now. Syria has yet to show that it can handle its existing air defenses very well.  That said, with new systems they may end up doing better than the IDF expects. It wouldn't be the first time that the IDF underestimated the effectiveness of SAMs


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Fukaren kown yteh on October 01, 2018, 09:11:44 AM
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-strike/palestinians-strike-in-support-of-israels-arab-minority-idUSKCN1MB2QT
Quote
Across the Palestinian territories on Monday, Palestinian schools, universities, government offices and shops were closed in solidarity with the Israeli Arab minority which shut down its private sector.

“It is the minimum we can do for our people against the racist nation-state law,” said Abu Jabir al-Iraqi, a resident of the Israeli Arab town Taybeh.



Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Fukaren kown yteh on October 02, 2018, 10:11:06 AM
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-village/bedouin-families-appeal-to-merkel-to-help-to-block-israeli-expulsion-idUSKCN1MC1TG
Quote
Khan al-Ahmar’s 180 residents, backed by foreign activists who have gathered at the site, have been waiting for bulldozers to move in at any time after an Oct. 1 deadline from Israel for the villagers to demolish their own homes expired.

Palestinians say razing the Bedouin village’s tents and tin and wood shacks is part of an Israeli plan to create an arc of Jewish settlements that would effectively cut off East Jerusalem from the West Bank, areas captured by Israel in a 1967 war.

Israel, which has long sought to clear the Arab nomads from tracts of land between the settlements of Maale Adumim and Kfar Adumim, said Khan al-Ahmar was built without the required permits. Palestinians say such documents are impossible to obtain.
I should note that Israel also forces sedentary lifestyles on these folks, actively barring their generational movements across the desert.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on October 02, 2018, 10:24:37 AM
That's a problem faced by nomadic groups across the world in an increasingly overcrowded planet, sadly.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Fukaren kown yteh on October 02, 2018, 10:33:03 AM
That's a problem faced by nomadic groups across the world in an increasingly overcrowded planet, sadly.
Except those areas aren’t wanted by people, but by energy companies to make a quick buck and a complicit ethnostate enabling it.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on October 16, 2018, 03:28:12 AM
Nivin Abu Rahmon was sword in as MK for Joint List (balad), raising their tally of women to 3.

Though elections is right around the corner next after her are two Jewish women in Lea Zemmel (balad) and Noa Levy (Hadash).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Meclazine for Israel on October 17, 2018, 08:47:26 AM
Looks like Israel and Palestine are off to the races again.

Two stray missiles from the Palestinians with one landing in the ocean.

The response from Israel was swift. Over 24 sites bombed.

https://edition-m.cnn.com/2018/10/17/middleeast/israel-gaza-tensions-intl/index.html

Hopefully the Palestinians will stop initiating violence.

It gives the Israeli's the moral high ground to do as they please afterwards.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on October 18, 2018, 02:52:38 AM
Two stray missiles from the Palestinians with one landing in the ocean.

The missiles aren't "stray". The one landing in the ocean was a clear threat- it reached a long distance, and whoever launched it clearly tried to show that they can threaten Israel's center but didn't want to actually hit it. The other missile hit a family's home in the city of Be'er Sheva, exploding right inside the children's room. They were saved only because the mother took her three children to the safe room.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on October 21, 2018, 08:44:46 AM
Jordan refused to continue the lease of some small enclaves of land to Israel due to public pressure. I doubt we'll see the legion stationed there soon, but the symbolic message is clear


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on October 21, 2018, 09:07:28 AM
Jordan refused to continue the lease of some small enclaves of land to Israel due to public pressure. I doubt we'll see the legion stationed there soon, but the symbolic message is clear

Yes, it's "Get our territory back before the Israelis permanently take it."


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on October 21, 2018, 09:11:10 AM
Jordan refused to continue the lease of some small enclaves of land to Israel due to public pressure. I doubt we'll see the legion stationed there soon, but the symbolic message is clear

Which enclaves are these?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on October 21, 2018, 09:40:00 AM
Jordan refused to continue the lease of some small enclaves of land to Israel due to public pressure. I doubt we'll see the legion stationed there soon, but the symbolic message is clear

Which enclaves are these?
()


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on October 21, 2018, 10:21:49 AM
How did these exclaves end up part of Jordan in the first place?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Aboa on October 21, 2018, 11:29:15 AM
How did these exclaves end up part of Jordan in the first place?

They are exclaves from Israeli point of view. 1994 peace treaty determined border between Jordan and Israel based on 1922 Trans-Jordan memorandum, this led to Israel returning said areas, which it had held since 1949 to Jordan. Jordan then leased the agricultural areas there to Israel.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on October 21, 2018, 03:17:15 PM
Exclaves are weird...


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Tintrlvr on October 21, 2018, 03:32:24 PM
Nivin Abu Rahmon was sword in as MK for Joint List (balad), raising their tally of women to 3.

Though elections is right around the corner next after her are two Jewish women in Lea Zemmel (balad) and Noa Levy (Hadash).

Balad has Jewish members? I thought only Hadash did of the Joint List parties.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on October 22, 2018, 03:33:15 AM
Nivin Abu Rahmon was sword in as MK for Joint List (balad), raising their tally of women to 3.

Though elections is right around the corner next after her are two Jewish women in Lea Zemmel (balad) and Noa Levy (Hadash).

Balad has Jewish members? I thought only Hadash did of the Joint List parties.
Yes, Balad predecessor was even formed by a former Jewish ex general (Mati Peled)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Intell on October 22, 2018, 06:55:23 AM
Nivin Abu Rahmon was sword in as MK for Joint List (balad), raising their tally of women to 3.

Though elections is right around the corner next after her are two Jewish women in Lea Zemmel (balad) and Noa Levy (Hadash).

Balad has Jewish members? I thought only Hadash did of the Joint List parties.
Yes, Balad predecessor was even formed by a former Jewish ex general (Mati Peled)

The important question being why they're in balad or the joint list in general instead of Meretz.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on October 22, 2018, 08:45:48 AM
Nivin Abu Rahmon was sword in as MK for Joint List (balad), raising their tally of women to 3.

Though elections is right around the corner next after her are two Jewish women in Lea Zemmel (balad) and Noa Levy (Hadash).

Balad has Jewish members? I thought only Hadash did of the Joint List parties.
Yes, Balad predecessor was even formed by a former Jewish ex general (Mati Peled)

The important question being why they're in balad or the joint list in general instead of Meretz.
Well there are differences between those parties and Meretz (certainly with Balad). And Meretz is a zionist party (by their definition), so leftist who don't consider themselves Zionists wouldn't want to be a part of it (usually)


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on October 22, 2018, 08:52:01 AM
Nivin Abu Rahmon was sword in as MK for Joint List (balad), raising their tally of women to 3.

Though elections is right around the corner next after her are two Jewish women in Lea Zemmel (balad) and Noa Levy (Hadash).

Balad has Jewish members? I thought only Hadash did of the Joint List parties.
Yes, Balad predecessor was even formed by a former Jewish ex general (Mati Peled)
Relative of Miko?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on October 22, 2018, 09:02:49 AM
Nivin Abu Rahmon was sword in as MK for Joint List (balad), raising their tally of women to 3.

Though elections is right around the corner next after her are two Jewish women in Lea Zemmel (balad) and Noa Levy (Hadash).

Balad has Jewish members? I thought only Hadash did of the Joint List parties.
Yes, Balad predecessor was even formed by a former Jewish ex general (Mati Peled)
Relative of Miko?
His father


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on October 22, 2018, 09:36:46 AM
Balad has Jewish members? I thought only Hadash did of the Joint List parties.

If your start looking for a person or a handful of people, then you will find a member of any large group in any party, that is just the nature of democracy and human nature. Just like you could find haredim voting for Meretz or someone secular voting UTJ, and an Arab for Jewish Home or Yachad and a Jew for Balad.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on October 25, 2018, 07:01:39 AM
When personal politics covers constitutional crisis. (personal favorite political situation for me)

So yesterday Bibi's newspaper published a sensational piece about how President Rivlin and former Minister Saar planned to appoint the latter to form a government after the next elections (Where Bibi is anticipated to win in a landslide). Bibi certainly thinks its the case (or he's trying to capitalize on it), Rivlin and Saar both denied and practically called Bibi a psychopath. Bibi said they'll change the basic law so that the head of the biggest party will automatically have the mandate to try and form a government (or maybe only part heads could do so).
* on a personal note, I don't think this was genuily on the cards, but I wouldn't rule Rivlin doing so if it was the case in real time. He seems like to person to make the normative stand that a prime minister in the middle of massive corruption charges is unfit to serve (it definitely looks bad on the outside, every decision he makes appears to be related to his cases)

But underlying the personal political crisis is an interesting constitutional question.
de jure the basic law gives the president absolute discretion to choose any MK to form a government, but de facto it has to be the the head of a party and almost always the largest party. (similar to how the monarch can appoint a PM from the lords but it is essentially impossible in custom). Actually picking a random MK is of course politically impossible, but picking an MK from the biggest party with the rest of the parties agreeing is less problematic,** though it would be very problematic when the entire election campaign ran along the lines of the personality of the leader (as Bibi plans).
so basically it's not completely untenable just unlikely considering the political climate atm

Another thing to note here is that Bibi is becoming shameless in his desire to reign by bending constitutional norms to fit his personal will. This is a worrying sign, he's not going to go down without a fight and it will be dirty. 


**Eshkol essentially formed one of the last Ben Gurion governments as he was loathed by all of his partners


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on October 31, 2018, 02:53:19 AM
I want Ofer Berkovitch win the run off now that Elkin lost.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on October 31, 2018, 04:57:48 AM
As Jackie Levi (Likud) was elected as mayor of Beit Shaan yesterday, Osnat Mark will be sworn in as an MK in his place.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on November 01, 2018, 08:03:05 PM
Bolsonaro says he's still moving the embassy.


Jair Messias Bolsonaro
5 uur ·
- Como afirmado durante a campanha, pretendemos transferir a Embaixada do Brasil de Tel Aviv para Jerusalém. Israel é um Estado soberano e nós o respeitamos.
_________

- As previously stated during our campaign, we intend to transfer the Brazilian Embassy from Tel-Aviv to Jerusalem. Israel is a sovereign state and we shall duly respect that.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Fukaren kown yteh on November 01, 2018, 11:47:26 PM
https://apnews.com/a3754f1bfd414e36aa14b92630ea1894
Quote
Israel is grappling with one of its worst measles outbreak in decades, with over 1,200 cases reported since the beginning of 2018.

Israeli media reported Thursday that an 18-month-old baby died of complications of the disease at a Jerusalem hospital, the country’s first death from measles since 2003. The child was not vaccinated.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Tweedledum on November 05, 2018, 11:58:58 PM
Bolsonaro says he's still moving the embassy.


Jair Messias Bolsonaro
5 uur ·
- Como afirmado durante a campanha, pretendemos transferir a Embaixada do Brasil de Tel Aviv para Jerusalém. Israel é um Estado soberano e nós o respeitamos.
_________

- As previously stated during our campaign, we intend to transfer the Brazilian Embassy from Tel-Aviv to Jerusalem. Israel is a sovereign state and we shall duly respect that.
Good.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on November 14, 2018, 04:44:25 AM
Lieberman is expected to resign today due disagreements over Gaza/his terrible public image. The coalition is now back to a 61 MK majority, can’t last long


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on November 14, 2018, 07:05:18 AM
Lieberman has indeed resigned and YB has left the coalition. Bibi now also seeks to become Defense Minister (in addition to being PM and Foreign Minister...), but Bennett wants to get that position himself and threatens to leave the coalition as well if he doesn't get it. An early election it is, I guess.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on November 14, 2018, 07:37:48 AM
Lieberman has indeed resigned and YB has left the coalition. Bibi now also seeks to become Defense Minister (in addition to being PM and Foreign Minister...), but Bennett wants to get that position himself and threatens to leave the coalition as well if he doesn't get it. An early election it is, I guess.
Bibi won’t yield to him. Elections it is. February/March


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on November 14, 2018, 08:21:39 AM
Well, this is going to be fun...


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: NewYorkExpress on November 16, 2018, 06:28:39 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/16/middleeast/israel-elections-intl/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/16/middleeast/israel-elections-intl/index.html)

It's official. There will be new elections.

So, is the end of Netanyahu as PM?

If Likud still wins the most seats, but has trouble forming a coalition, could someone other than Netanyahu be able to form a coalition?

Which opposition party is currently best positioned to form a coalition government?

Will anyone be able to form a government without the religious parties (which is my dream for Israeli Politics).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on November 18, 2018, 08:15:22 AM
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/16/middleeast/israel-elections-intl/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/16/middleeast/israel-elections-intl/index.html)

It's official. There will be new elections.

So, is the end of Netanyahu as PM?

If Likud still wins the most seats, but has trouble forming a coalition, could someone other than Netanyahu be able to form a coalition?

Which opposition party is currently best positioned to form a coalition government?

Will anyone be able to form a government without the religious parties (which is my dream for Israeli Politics).
not official, but soon, they just need to settle the date.

No, I fully expect Bibi to remain PM in almost the same coalition afterwards.

No opposition party is even remotely close to a coalition, especially with the Haredi.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on November 18, 2018, 01:10:00 PM
What if no-one can form a government?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on November 19, 2018, 02:17:02 AM
legally, another election. practically, not going to ever happen.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on November 19, 2018, 04:15:58 AM
JH rescinded their demand to get the MoD after Bibi claimed some obscure claims about a delicate security situation. election for now avoided, though this narrow coalition will face a lot of difficulties.

Bibi will have to appoint a Minister of Foreign Affairs though before the supreme court forces him. I bet Steinitz or Hanegbi will get it.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on November 19, 2018, 04:55:54 AM
JH rescinded their demand to get the MoD after Bibi claimed some obscure claims about a delicate security situation. election for now avoided, though this narrow coalition will face a lot of difficulties.

Bibi will have to appoint a Minister of Foreign Affairs though before the supreme court forces him. I bet Steinitz or Hanegbi will get it.

What about Kulanu? Kahlon seems pretty intent on an election to escape the aftermath of his economic policies.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on November 19, 2018, 05:46:25 AM
JH rescinded their demand to get the MoD after Bibi claimed some obscure claims about a delicate security situation. election for now avoided, though this narrow coalition will face a lot of difficulties.

Bibi will have to appoint a Minister of Foreign Affairs though before the supreme court forces him. I bet Steinitz or Hanegbi will get it.

What about Kulanu? Kahlon seems pretty intent on an election to escape the aftermath of his economic policies.
what about them? he may want to have the election sooner but he has not plausible cause to break the coalition now.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on November 20, 2018, 08:54:34 AM
Any effect on the eventual election? I don't see this doing anything otherwise. The effect on Airbnb is a wash as they stood to lose some potential customers no matter how they decided. The occupation will continue unabated. I wouldn't have thought the settlements would've been all that interesting to tourists to begin with. I can't imagine anyone other than those visiting friends or relatives who would've used Airbnb to book a night or two in a settlement.

Quote from: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-46273938
Israel has denounced as "shameful" Airbnb's decision to withdraw its listings from homes in Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank.

Its tourism minister said Israeli authorities would back legal challenges lodged by settlers against the US firm.

Airbnb said it had made the decision because settlements were "at the core" of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

The move, which affects 200 listings, has been widely praised by Palestinians and their supporters.

Jewish settlements in territory occupied by Israel in the 1967 Middle East war are considered illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on November 20, 2018, 08:58:47 AM
It won't have any effect rather than just to annoy Israelis.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on November 21, 2018, 04:46:36 AM
Those who actually use Airbnb wouldn't care, those who don't would but it means very little to them


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Santander on November 21, 2018, 02:01:41 PM
How many visitors to Israel even want to visit - let alone stay in - a settlement, anyway? Anyone who does probably has family in the settlement they can stay with instead of staying in a stranger's spare room.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: SATW on November 22, 2018, 11:59:28 PM
How many visitors to Israel even want to visit - let alone stay in - a settlement, anyway? Anyone who does probably has family in the settlement they can stay with instead of staying in a stranger's spare room.

Many people visit the settlements in Israel. Religious Orthodox Jews, Evangelical Christians, Political conservatives etc...

But, I agree, not many non-Jews would want to sleep in the settlements and likely would stay in Jerusalem itself.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Frodo on December 04, 2018, 09:01:04 AM
Given the scandals swirling around PM Binyamin Netanyahu, is Likud and its governing coalition screwed in next year's election, whenever it might be held? 


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on December 04, 2018, 09:06:17 AM
Given the scandals swirling around PM Binyamin Netanyahu, is Likud and its governing coalition screwed in next year's election, whenever it might be held?  

LOL no. The Israeli left is frankly pathetic and there's a personality cult around Netanyahu that he's the only one who can lead Israel with no alternative. Even if he doesn't make it to the election, the Israeli public most likely won't vote for the "traitor lefties" in large enough numbers for a governable coalition. Lastly, the scandals aren't impacting Bibi's support, on the contrary- right-wingers who think everyone is conspiring against him seem to coalesce around him. They don't care about his corruption and elitism.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Fukaren kown yteh on December 04, 2018, 02:52:39 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/04/israeli-women-protest-over-domestic-violence-in-nationwide-strike
Quote
Thousands of Israeli women have protested against domestic violence in a nationwide strike, calling for more action and state funding to deal with the problem.

The strike came after two girls were killed last week, bringing the number of women and girls murdered in Israel this year to 24, according to Israeli media reports.

Women were staying home from work and holding demonstrations in cities throughout Israel, some blocking roads.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Meclazine for Israel on December 15, 2018, 06:36:07 AM
Australia has recognized West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and is making plans to move our embassy there.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on December 15, 2018, 11:47:53 AM
Australia has recognized West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and is making plans to move our embassy there.

According to the BBC, it's not moving until there's a peace agreement, which means it's not moving.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on December 24, 2018, 08:50:53 AM
Election officially scheduled for April 9th, 2019.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Frodo on December 25, 2018, 12:14:56 PM
Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu is still the overwhelming front-runner (https://www.timesofisrael.com/first-poll-after-elections-called-shows-likud-breezing-past-gantz-to-easy-win/), and his coalition is likely to remain in control of the government according to the latest poll:

Quote
Overall, the results show Netanyahu would be able to form a narrow right-wing government together with his current coalition partners, including the ultra-Orthodox parties. Partnering with Gantz and Lapid and other right-wing parties would boost Netanyahu to a wide majority without the need for ultra-Orthodox parties, which have, for decades, been a deciding factor in coalitions.








Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Silent Hunter on December 25, 2018, 05:00:31 PM
Without the ultra-Orthodox parties propping up a government, would Israel be more willing to make Palestine related concessions.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on December 25, 2018, 05:06:42 PM
Without the ultra-Orthodox parties propping up a government, would Israel be more willing to make Palestine related concessions.

No, the Haredi have different priorities and are not particularly right wing on such matters. Opposition to concessions would come from the Jewish Home or from within the Likud.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Joe Republic on December 26, 2018, 07:45:58 PM
Roseanne Barr scheduled to address the Knesset next month, (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/roseanne-address-israeli-parliament-january-1171627) because this timeline we’re in isn’t bizarre enough.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on December 26, 2018, 08:24:01 PM
Roseanne Barr scheduled to address the Knesset next month, (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/roseanne-address-israeli-parliament-january-1171627) because this timeline we’re in isn’t bizarre enough.

She is an expert when it comes to racism.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on December 27, 2018, 03:55:20 AM
Roseanne Barr scheduled to address the Knesset next month, (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/roseanne-address-israeli-parliament-january-1171627) because this timeline we’re in isn’t bizarre enough.

We should bring in anyone who hates homosexuals, black people etc as long as they like Jews to our parliament! I mean, LGBTQ and Ethiopian Israelis have no feelings.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Intell on December 27, 2018, 04:23:11 AM
Roseanne Barr scheduled to address the Knesset next month, (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/roseanne-address-israeli-parliament-january-1171627) because this timeline we’re in isn’t bizarre enough.

We should bring in anyone who hates homosexuals, black people etc as long as they like Jews to our parliament! I mean, LGBTQ and Ethiopian Israelis have no feelings.

I'm mean this at the very least is false. I'm pretty sure she doesn't "hate" black people either just has stupid and prejudiced views (which is definitely wrong).


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on December 27, 2018, 04:24:56 AM
Roseanne Barr scheduled to address the Knesset next month, (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/roseanne-address-israeli-parliament-january-1171627) because this timeline we’re in isn’t bizarre enough.

We should bring in anyone who hates homosexuals, black people etc as long as they like Jews to our parliament! I mean, LGBTQ and Ethiopian Israelis have no feelings.

I'm mean this at the very least is false. I'm pretty sure she doesn't "hate" black people either just has stupid and prejudiced views (which is definitely wrong).

I'm not just talking about her. I'm talking about Bolsanoro too, who got a visit from Bibi in his inauguration, and other repugnant leaders and figures my government loves flirting with.
And yeah, I know she doesn't hate anyone, it was a hyperbole :P


Title: Re: Israel opinion poll thread
Post by: Medal506 on December 27, 2018, 05:00:11 AM
42% of Israel supports an act that 81% believe will result in all out war in the region?

Such a peaceful nation we must pray for.

Anything they do as a nation will lead to war because they're surrounded by Muslim supremacists who just want another genocide against the Jewish people.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: parochial boy on December 27, 2018, 08:32:57 AM
Thank you for quoting a 7 year old post so that you could enlighten us with that highly sophisticated take on the situation in the middle east.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on December 28, 2018, 11:24:41 AM
Amos Oz has died.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: NewYorkExpress on December 28, 2018, 02:03:40 PM
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-election-gantz/israeli-ex-general-polling-closest-to-netanyahu-joins-2019-election-race-idUSKCN1OQ14E (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-election-gantz/israeli-ex-general-polling-closest-to-netanyahu-joins-2019-election-race-idUSKCN1OQ14E)

Quote
A former Israeli armed forces chief who opinion polls show poses the toughest challenge to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s bid for reelection next year formally established a political party on Thursday.

Details about Benny Gantz’s Israel Resilience Party, leaked to local media after it was registered, gave little indication of its ideological tilt.

Along with preserving Israel as “a Jewish and democratic country”, the party pledged unspecified changes to priorities in national security and the economy.


Polling has predicted an easy win for Netanyahu in the April 9 election, with his rightist Likud party taking around 30 of parliament’s 120 seats and on course to form a right-wing coalition government similar to the current cabinet.

So, if push comes to shove, who do you believe Gantz would be willing to join a coalition with?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on December 28, 2018, 03:06:49 PM
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-election-gantz/israeli-ex-general-polling-closest-to-netanyahu-joins-2019-election-race-idUSKCN1OQ14E (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-election-gantz/israeli-ex-general-polling-closest-to-netanyahu-joins-2019-election-race-idUSKCN1OQ14E)

Quote
A former Israeli armed forces chief who opinion polls show poses the toughest challenge to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s bid for reelection next year formally established a political party on Thursday.

Details about Benny Gantz’s Israel Resilience Party, leaked to local media after it was registered, gave little indication of its ideological tilt.

Along with preserving Israel as “a Jewish and democratic country”, the party pledged unspecified changes to priorities in national security and the economy.


Polling has predicted an easy win for Netanyahu in the April 9 election, with his rightist Likud party taking around 30 of parliament’s 120 seats and on course to form a right-wing coalition government similar to the current cabinet.

So, if push comes to shove, who do you believe Gantz would be willing to join a coalition with?

I imagine his ideal coalition would be with Lapid and Kachlon as a three-part "Third Way" leadership group. They would then probably bring over ZU to avoid having to deal with Netanyahu or any of the far-right parties, but beyond that it gets tricky. The Arabs are flat-out and the Ultra-Orthodox won't be willing to work in any way with Lapid.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Velasco on December 29, 2018, 04:50:12 AM

Sad news.

I would like to know if our Israeli posters have a word to say...


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 29, 2018, 08:27:37 AM

Sad news.

I would like to know if our Israeli posters have a word to say...
Met him on several occasions, was a great author and speaker. His brand of pragmatic progressivism just didn’t speak to growing number of illiberal Jews especially the immigrants from the ME and the former USSR


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on December 30, 2018, 04:55:14 AM
Naftali Bennett, Ayelet Shaked and Shuli Maulem leaving Bayit Yehudi and start their own party: HaYamin HeHadash

because, you know, Israeli politics isn't already wild lol.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/bennett-shaked-expected-to-announce-break-from-jewish-home-form-new-party/
I have no doubt their future aim is merging with Likud.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Velasco on December 30, 2018, 07:07:22 AM

Sad news.

I would like to know if our Israeli posters have a word to say...
Met him on several occasions, was a great author and speaker. His brand of pragmatic progressivism just didn’t speak to growing number of illiberal Jews especially the immigrants from the ME and the former USSR

I suspect that  "progressive" and "pacifist" sound like insults to many ears in Israel. It's a terrible zeitgeist

The world needs more pragmatic progressives like him. You are lucky for having met Amos Oz


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: NewYorkExpress on January 15, 2019, 06:05:38 PM
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mcjesus-sculpture-ronald-mcdonald-crucifix-outrage-christians-israel/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mcjesus-sculpture-ronald-mcdonald-crucifix-outrage-christians-israel/)

Quote
An art exhibit in Israel featuring a crucified Ronald McDonald has sparked protests by the country's Arab Christian minority.


Hundreds of Christians calling for the removal of the sculpture, entitled "McJesus," demonstrated at the museum in the northern city of Haifa last week. Israeli police say rioters hurled a firebomb at the museum and threw stones that wounded three police officers. Authorities dispersed the crowds with tear gas and stun grenades.

Church representatives brought their grievances to the district court Monday, demanding it order the removal of the exhibit's most offensive items, including Barbie doll renditions of a bloodied Jesus and the Virgin Mary.

Museum director Nissim Tal said that he was shocked at the sudden uproar, especially because the exhibit - intended to criticize what many view as society's cult-like worship of capitalism - had been on display for months. It has also been shown in other countries without incident.

The protests appear to have been sparked by visitors sharing photos of the exhibit on social media.

Oh, and here's a photo.

()

Would that offend you?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 15, 2019, 06:46:00 PM
How difficult is it not to display this stupid nonsense and damage Israel's reputation in the process, seriously. People need to use their brains.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DC Al Fine on January 15, 2019, 07:06:34 PM
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mcjesus-sculpture-ronald-mcdonald-crucifix-outrage-christians-israel/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mcjesus-sculpture-ronald-mcdonald-crucifix-outrage-christians-israel/)

Quote
An art exhibit in Israel featuring a crucified Ronald McDonald has sparked protests by the country's Arab Christian minority.


Hundreds of Christians calling for the removal of the sculpture, entitled "McJesus," demonstrated at the museum in the northern city of Haifa last week. Israeli police say rioters hurled a firebomb at the museum and threw stones that wounded three police officers. Authorities dispersed the crowds with tear gas and stun grenades.

Church representatives brought their grievances to the district court Monday, demanding it order the removal of the exhibit's most offensive items, including Barbie doll renditions of a bloodied Jesus and the Virgin Mary.

Museum director Nissim Tal said that he was shocked at the sudden uproar, especially because the exhibit - intended to criticize what many view as society's cult-like worship of capitalism - had been on display for months. It has also been shown in other countries without incident.

The protests appear to have been sparked by visitors sharing photos of the exhibit on social media.

Oh, and here's a photo.

()

Would that offend you?

Absolutely. Its blasphemous.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: DavidB. on January 16, 2019, 08:07:08 AM
If it's any consolation, these types do this sort of stuff with Judaism all the time as well. Museums that do this should lose their government subsidies.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on January 16, 2019, 09:06:30 AM
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mcjesus-sculpture-ronald-mcdonald-crucifix-outrage-christians-israel/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mcjesus-sculpture-ronald-mcdonald-crucifix-outrage-christians-israel/)

Quote
An art exhibit in Israel featuring a crucified Ronald McDonald has sparked protests by the country's Arab Christian minority.


Hundreds of Christians calling for the removal of the sculpture, entitled "McJesus," demonstrated at the museum in the northern city of Haifa last week. Israeli police say rioters hurled a firebomb at the museum and threw stones that wounded three police officers. Authorities dispersed the crowds with tear gas and stun grenades.

Church representatives brought their grievances to the district court Monday, demanding it order the removal of the exhibit's most offensive items, including Barbie doll renditions of a bloodied Jesus and the Virgin Mary.

Museum director Nissim Tal said that he was shocked at the sudden uproar, especially because the exhibit - intended to criticize what many view as society's cult-like worship of capitalism - had been on display for months. It has also been shown in other countries without incident.

The protests appear to have been sparked by visitors sharing photos of the exhibit on social media.

Oh, and here's a photo.

()

Would that offend you?
The question is should anyone's feeling be of interest here?


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: danny on January 16, 2019, 11:27:39 AM
How difficult is it not to display this stupid nonsense and damage Israel's reputation in the process, seriously. People need to use their brains.

The way all the other countries that had this display were harmed? any danger to reputation would be for being a country where free expression is censored because of religious fanatics. This display wasn't even trying to mock Christianity, but in any case I think you should be able to criticise and mock religion just like any other ideology.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: America Needs R'hllor on January 17, 2019, 12:44:42 AM
How difficult is it not to display this stupid nonsense and damage Israel's reputation in the process, seriously. People need to use their brains.

The way all the other countries that had this display were harmed? any danger to reputation would be for being a country where free expression is censored because of religious fanatics. This display wasn't even trying to mock Christianity, but in any case I think you should be able to criticise and mock religion just like any other ideology.

Yep, no one should care if any Christian fundamentalist in America or Canada thinks it's blasphemous, because we're a free country. The only problem I see right now is that people are afraid to do to Islam what they do to Christianity and Judaism, but that's something else that shouldn't be fixing by catering to all religious extremists, but rather to none of them.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Santander on January 17, 2019, 10:37:51 AM


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on February 26, 2019, 12:02:30 AM
I'm surprised that even Netanyahu is so desperate and/or so stupid as to openly broker a merger between Jewish Home and Jewish Power (the Kahanust party that goes as close as it legally can to admitting it wants to ethnically cleanse the Occupied Territories of non-Jews).

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/02/otzma-yehudit-netanyahu.html (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/02/otzma-yehudit-netanyahu.html)

Even if it works in the short-term (which is doubtful), the long-term damage this will do just doesn't seem worth it. It is not in Israel's interests to make support of Israel even more of a partisan issue in the US than it currently is. Support of Israel will never be a defining issue that decides elections in this country, tho it may decide a the occasional race, especially in the primaries. Taking steps to make it more likely that the Democratic Party goes from being lukewarm on Israel to being antagonistic is not in Israel's interests.


Title: Re: Israel general discussion
Post by: Hnv1 on July 01, 2019, 11:38:52 AM
Well today when I was doing some legal work on something else I found something interesting. It appears that the status of an Enemy State that Iraq had since 48 was knowingly abolished on 1.1.2019. I wonder what’s that about, but anyhow business in Iraq is now legal.

No I don’t think it has anything to do with Kurds