Talk Elections

When I say state of Israel, I do not mean as part of the USA ;)

I would like to see some views on this and what people think, I am pro-Israel being Jewish and I think the Palestinians made this problem for themselves when they refused Israel's offer of all of the conquered land excluding Jerusalem, or the offer of 45% of the Israel.

"50% Israel and 50% Palestine"
or
"Gaza and the West Bank Palestinian, the rest Israel"
or
"Israel offered deal - 45% Palestine 55% Israel".

I´m so undecided. ;)

Anyway, I voted for "Gaza and the West Bank Palestinian, the rest Israel".


EDIT: Check out the Middle East Political Opinion Selector (http://www.selectsmart.com/FREE/select.php?client=mideast).

I personally don't think the 50/50 is feasible, it would be impossible to partition.

Can I just say, the 45/55 deal was offered a while back and Yasser Arafat refused it and continued terror attacks on Israel, I am for that deal.

lol

I remember when I was first taught about Israel's creation.  I thought that it was silly place to put a nation of Jews. It didn't seem wise to put a few million Jews in the middle of tens of millions of Arabs. I said "why didn't we give them the Dakotas, its not like we were using them"

It was, is and will be their land. You heard about history, roots, etc.

I know that now. But when I was like eleven, obviously I didn't know the whole backstory.

When you say 50-50 ot 55-45 do you mean of the wast bank and Gaza or of the all country? the offer was 96% of the teritories (west bank and Gaza)

I mean of the whole of Israel, I know it was 96% of the territories, after the conquest when they took Jerusalem they did say they would give all but Jerusalem to Palestine if the Arabs would sign a treaty to create peace in the region.

55-45 of the all country is way more then the teritories . the west bank and Gaza are 30%. and it was noever offerd. Alas ypu mean the greater Israel (Palestine) that was the under british mandat
 

are you sure it wasn't offered? I know they offered Gaza and the West Bank at one point, my friend said that they offered 45% of Israel before.

I know for a fact they offered all the land they conquered in 48 during the war with surrounding Arab nations

I notice no one here supports it becoming entirely Palestine, or even split 50/50.

JFK,

The only question for me was whether or not I advocated the eradication of all Palestinians. But since I'm not that amoral, I voted for Israel being the sole state. However, I think Israel needs to do what it's in its best interests, and that may mean a two-state solution in the current political environment where the rest of the world, other than the U.S., seems to be strongly pro-Palestinian.

USA has made a few moves to try and create a Palestinian state, some Presidents have tried to force Israel to do things.... Someone at my school was arguing with me about this, I said Israel gave Palestine an offer of like 45% of the land and they refused and she said it was rightfully all their land, no it frickin isn't, it was originally Israel and the Jews bought lots of it from the Palestinians, not only that but the UN created the country in 1948!!!

Frankly, I'm not informed enough about this issue to make a totally qualified judgement. However, I fully support the existence of a Jewish state and Israel's right to exist. So I'm tempted to vote for the first option. But the creation of a Palestinian state comprised of Gaza and the West Bank may go some way to quell the troubles, so that's the option I voted for.

Who knows, maybe one day Jews and Arabs will be able to live side by side in a shared Republic Of Israel And Palestine... yes I know, it sounds totally utopian, but surely that's something worth aiming for.

yes, but doubtful, the problem with a nation of the Gaza strip and the West Bank is that they aren't very well placed geographically, they are not right next to each other.

()

If you look they are seperated by quite a bit.

One truly great difference between the two countries is that Israel is A DEMOCRACY, whereas Palestine is led by Yasser Arafat, a man who is also head of a terrorist organisation (the PLO) bent on destroying Israel.

Don't worry about being not well informed on the issue, most people are very ignorant regarding it, thus so many people support Palestine, they just see Israeli tanks killing people.

Anybody hear about the recent suicide bomber? a 14 year old kid was forced to become a suicide bomber against his will, they strapped a bomb to him and sent him in, poor kid surrendered to the Israeli army the first chance he got.

That's doubtful, I think. Few people like Sharon, but a lot of people are generally pro-Israel.

Yes I know, that's another problem. A nation comprised of two separate entities rarely works, witness the Weimar Republic... though for the moment it appears to be the only solution we have.

My friend you got all mix up.
No one will offer more then a return to 1949-1967 lines. the Arab nations invaded Israel, not an inch was taken from them until farther attacks in 56' 67' 73' (and most of it givem back). the 67' lines are the borders the un aprove, the question is the future of the west bank and Gaza. O/c many palestians want to destroy Israel

I don't think Sharon will win re-election, the stunt with Sheik Yassin was more to increase his falling popularity.

The UN proposed splitting it ISralis 55%, Palestinians 45% in the late 30s, but the Palestinians refused at htat time.

No
That was Un resolution on 29/11/1947
the jews exepct, the arabs reject, the war started, in it's end Israels border was created (49' or 67; lines)/ they are official. As the late Aba Even used to say: "the arabs never miss an oportunity to miss an oportiunity"

Sharon is 76 and will not run in 2007
If his goverment falls befor that time it's b/c a corruption buisness involving his sons

yeah, it has hurt his popularity, doesn't he have pretty low approval ratings at the moment?

Barak was good I believe, he was a good guy, offered peace and land to the Palestinians but they refused, he was assassinated wasn't he?

No, I think you're thinking of Yitzhak Rabin, who was assasinated by Israelis after negotiating the Oslo peace.

I seemed to remember that it was first proposed in 1937...but other than that we're not differeing.

think I may have been confused with Rabin on assassination point.

Gus you just made post #6666
the cabinet just decided will give any member a six pack...

LOL!

'The number of the beast' :)

isn't that 666 rather than 6666?

yeah

6666 is just for the 6pack

Of course, but it was pretty close, nonetheless. ;)

There's something I find EXTREMELY confusing in this thread. On numerous occasions, I have praised both JFK and Gustaf because they seem to have so much knowledge relative to other young people. But now I have a serious question for both Gustaf and JFK...

How is it you guys know so much about the United States and European history, but absolutely nothing about Israeli/Palestininan history...as Dunn pointed out in a polite fashion earlier in this thread?

What do you mean with 'absolutely nothing'? I admit that I might have been wrong on the year in which the 55-45 division plan was proposed, but I don't know what else I know 'absolutely nothing' about? I would very much like you to opint taht out, since I don't want to go around being unknowledgeable...if that's a word, lol. ;)

Seriously, I think I know most important years, etc, like all the wars and so on.

I will tell you . First they do know a lot for young people , second the european and some american news organization are bias and don't give the historical facts

Look at my above post. Tell me what I've been wrong on.

markdel man, what have we been so wrong about?

Gustaf,

I'm sorry if I came across as harsh, I probably should have said "know so much less" than "know nothing at all"

Your post above is an example of what I meant. I was just curious because you do seem to know so much about other issues. No disrespect at all intended.

I said you do know alot Gus
you do

JFK,

I'm sorry, I did NOT mean it to be insulting. For example, you said Barak instead of Rabin, and Dunn had to correct you guys about the original UN partition...stuff like that.

I should have said you guys seem to know "less" about this issue than other issues...I'm sorry.

But there was a point I was getting at..one which I will now keep to myself.

no, please do tell :), I was confused on the issue.

Dunn, to be quite honest, your answer here is the one I was looking for. That was the point I was trying to make without really saying it...I wanted them to come to the conclusion themselves, since they are such smart young men. But I fear all I have done is stir up a hornet's nest that I did not intend to stir up!!! I actually have extremely high opinions of both of them and have said so in previous threads.

I thing you took it harder then they did....
These are fine young men and it's ok to be mistaken, In hebrew there is saying "not the shy one learns"

JFK,

I just read an older post by Dunn, he seems to have made my point for me...

I know the Palestinian tactics have been pretty horrendous, they attacked Israel on Yom Kippur (sp?), the holiest day in the Jewish calendar which is pretty bad. I am not quite sure what you are implying?

Dunn,

Well said.

the point about the media reporting? I read some info on the crisis that was supposed to be pretty impartial.

JFK,

What I was trying to "draw out" was that any lack of knowledge on the part of you and/or Gustaf was strictly a result of the anti-Israel bias that you no doubt were subjected to in your European educations...my intent was to absolve you of your lack of historical accuracy and blame the left wing anti-semites who dominate European media and/or classrooms.

well that was not the palestinians but Syria and Egypt

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

MarkDel,

I did not take it that badly...but I see that I made one mistake...note though that I'm still not convinced that the division plan was not first put forward by the British in 1937... :) Not contradicting the UN plan coming up in 1947, mind you...

On the reason, I don't see our posts indicating that we have recieved anti-Israel info? I think the sad case is rather taht history has been a low prioerity in Sweden for a long, long time and we don't learn much about smaller countries like Israel.

you are doing alright JFK
tell your fiend it is the land oh the jews since the bible, we are willing to split it, (most of ) the arabs wants us in the sea

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

my school stopped teaching the Arab-Israeli conflict like 10 years ago I think it was, they said they "didn't think it would be relevant in the news or have much coverage", man were they wrong.

JFK,

And you go to a nice private school, right? I'll bet that's not the real reason they stopped teaching about the Arab/Israeli conflict.

I go to a private school yes, but I think that is probably the real reason, my teacher who was there at the time seems very keen to teach it and thinks it is a real shame.

I knew Palestine was never a country actually, just the region, it encompassed Jordan as well didn't it?

I think you're seriously over-estimating the level of anti-Israel sentiment in countries like mine. The general opinion is that it's horrible. Basically. There is a lot of sympathy for Jews traditionally in both the Swedish Labour Party, the Conservatives and especially the Liberals. The Swedish liberals are like your typical whuzzy Limousine Liberals except for when it comes to Israel where they are often ultra-hawks.

Gustaf, he does not under-estimate, belibe me.

Sure, people are critical of Israel, and I'd say most hate Sharon the way they hate Bush. But are they all pro-Palestinian and everything is heavily biased? No, I certainy wouldn't say that. I am not saying that it doesn't exist or is weak, but MarkDel is giving the impression that it's somehow a massive brain-washing going on, and I think that is exaggerating. I'd like my country to be more pro-Israel, but that isn't the point here. I think the view of ISarel is heavily influenced by the trafition of anti-semitism and that's pretty weak in Sweden.

there are a lot of anti-Israel people here, and invariably anti-Semites.

I was rather offended by one girl at my school who criticised my Jewish friend and I for not singing in Chapel which our school makes us go to, it is a Christian ceremony so we did not sing and just stood there making a point of our objection and she was like what's the big deal it is the same God, so what? Which some of you may agree with, but I think it is the principle of the thing.

Maybe Sweden is not, but most western europe is. MarkDel is so right here.
 

Maybe Sweden is not what? Anti-semitic? Anti-Israel? It depends on your definiotn on anti-Israel of course, but most people recognize Israel's right to existence, which is where I draw the line. Sure, a lot of people are more critical than I think is warranted, but that's different.

Gustaf,

To give you an example, it wasn't all that long ago that the Swedish government took the Israeli Ambassador to Sweden to an art exhibit so he could see the glorification of Palestinian suicide bombers as heroic. And when the Israeli Ambassador expressed his anger and outrage, the Swedish press said it was another example of Zionist hatred, etc, etc...this is just one example...and it's FAR worse in places like France and Germany.

Did you notice we are the only one that 'should' thank part of the world for recognize our right to existence. Don't antbody has that right? Sweden?USA? Chile?Gambia?India?Vanutu?
It does have a name

Dunn,

Boy ain't that the truth...

Thank you MarkDel

Israel has every right to exist, it is historically their land, Israel has more right to exist than some countries.

JFK,

Yep, but the fact that their right to existence is even DISCUSSED is an example of what Dunn and I are talking about.

I know, I am saying, that it has just as much right as other countries to exist, Palestine were given the chance and turned it down, despite the offer being generous.

I am very curious to hear about how you know what the Swedish press wrote about, since I didn't know you knew Swedish...I didn't read anything about 'Zionist hatred' in 3 of the 5 existing national newspapers my family gets everyday...and the art exhibit did not have a direct link to the goverment, it was in a museum, the ambassador was invited to a conference.

You're right. Arafat walked away from the best deal they would EVER get. Now if there's any justice, Likud will continue to dominate Israeli elections and the Palestinians will see how they enjoy Bebe Netanyahu calling the shots again.

JFK
You are brought up in a good area, with good education and you are a great guy. It's just that the world - including western Europe - is very diffrent from what you imagin (about this issue I mean)

I never said that you should be thankful. But tell me then, how do you define being aginst Israel? Being sceptocal towards the current Israeli policy? Or what?

I know, there is a lot of anti semitism out there, sickening really seeing what has happened.

Gustaf,

To be perfectly honest, I read US and British accounts of what took place, and they "paraphrased" some of the reporting from Sweden. Wasn't the exhibit held at a government sponsored museum and wasn't the Israeli Ambassador there per an invite?

Most anti-semitism in Europe comes from Muslim immgrants though...but there's more in CONTINENTAL Europe, MarkDel ;) hardly exists among Swedes, I'm pretty sure.

no
being hypocrat about Israel and/or jews. justifing terrorists in one place, denouncing them everywhere else. Not playing sports In Israel bc of the terror but playing in Istanbul/Moscow/Madrid etc.

Dunn,

Great points.

Gus
17% of Italians - and Italy is not as bad as spain, France or Germany - said in a recent poll Israel don't have the right to exist.

It's after 1am here but you made me stay and posting some good points...
;)

The museum is sponsored by the government but I don't think they have any control of it. It was 1 exhibition, by one artist. I agree that it was bad taste to have it up, even though you might be intersted in hearing that the artist who constructed it is a Jew himself...I do however think that the ambassador did step over the line, even though I can understand his sentiment. It's possible now that you say it that he was invited to the exhibition...it had to do with the conference, but I'm not sure of the exact link.

Gustaf,

Well...I hope you're right...

The sports thing is a security decision, that I can't really give an opnion on, but few people do what you're now saying...justifying terrorism like that. That would be aminority definitely.

but many people agree with the Palestinian terrorists which is agreeing with terrorism which is just wrong, plain and simple.

I am. There's racism, mind you, in fact there's a lot of the paradoxal 'Dutch racism', but Sweden has never had a strong anti-semitism, not even in the 30s.

No
Thet justify it, sometimes not call it terror

Look here, I actually live here. VERY FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY SUPPORT TERRORISM! Even 17% is a small minority. Too big yes, but still a minority.

Dunn,

Yes, they rationalize the terror by calling people "insurgents" instead of terrorists...as just one example.

Well, I have never read about them being called that in a Swedish newspaper, that's for sure...in fact, of the 2 only national morning papers in Sweden, 1 has a conservative editorial which means REALLY pro-Israel and the other is liberal which mean REALLY, REALLY pro-Israel...

Gus I don't know about Sweden but 17% is Italy and the one don't think Israel has a right to EXIST, way more support terrorism (if it's against jews and also americans, not a few left wing europeans were acctually glad about 9/11). And the numbers un Spain, Germany, France, Belguim, Nerherland are way worse

The only people in Europe I know of who were actually HAPPY about 9/11 were Muslim children living in Europe. Most left-wingers aren't evil people who want people to die, you know. No offense, but I actually live here, and I think both you and MarkDel are letting your prejudices carry you away. I am well aware that Europe is not a great supporter of Israel and so on, but I don't think a lot of people actually wish you to die or anything like that.

You don't know the hatres toward Israelis and jews around the world. people that don't think Israel should exists want me dead. it's over 30% in Belguim for example

Lots of people want Israel to be removed though..... terrible thing that.

Dunn, if it's any consolation, they want me dead too. Similar people killed many of my relaties 60 years ago. It's like Amos Oz said: "70 years ago, European graffiti read Jews to Palestine. Today, it reads Jews out of Palestine. Don't be here, and don't be there. In other words, don't be."

I have many relatives and friends in Israel, and last I heard they didn't particularly want to be thrown into the sea. I can understand those emotions. I myself have no great desire to end up in a crematorium. But I probably should be more understanding of the rightful Lebensraum of the Filastini volk, whose land is occupied by judeobolshevik mongrels. Guess I just don't have enough compassion and tolerance for that argument. Does that make me a bad democrat?

I know some of them wants you dead too. we are brothers.

I didn't understand the last part was it a joke?

I support the formation of a Palestinian state as well as the existence of an Israeli state.

I think Ariel Sharon is an asshole, but Yassir Arafat is even dumber. I´m a Yitzhak Rabin admirer.

And I generally deny any accusation of me being an anti-Semite as anti-European and anti-German. :P

I don´t want to piss off MarkDel, but the really scary thing is that I personally know some anti-Semites who are pro-American and pro-Bush conservatives.

Over here "real" anti-semitism is mostly confined to Muslims and right wingers...

That's basically my point. Though I do think there are some radical left-wingers as well.

M,

I can definitely understand your sentiment. I like Amos Oz, from what I can remember he's a very reasonable person. He got a prize of some sort, in Sweden I think, and there was an interview with him on tv, about a year ago or so. I remember my mum was impressed with him and used him in her 'speech to the spring' that someone in our neighbourhood holds every year to greet the spring.

That´s right. I think extreme leftists (and I mean REALLY extreme) see themselves as "anti-Zionist", because Zionism is a form of nationalism/imperialism and Marxists are fighting against imperialism etc.

Anyway, the democratic leftist parties in Germany tend to be very "anti-anti-Semitic", partly because it´s seen as political correct to be against anti-Semitism (has also something to do with the Holocaust etc.). And I´ve met conservatives who complained that "political correctness" has gone too far these days and that it has to be possible to "criticize" the jews.

The last anti-Semitic scandal we had here was then a Member of Parliament of the conservative CDU indirectly called the jews a "race of perpetrators" (maybe somebody heard of it). After some time of bitter political debate within and without the party this MP was expelled from his party.

And there was Möllem as well...I find it funny that the liberal parties in Germany and Austria have such strong anti-semitic traditions, whereas the Swedish liberals are the exact opposite.

Well, of course, there are also counterexamples, like veteran FDP politician Hildegard Hamm-Brücher (whose grandmother was a jew, who committed suicide to prevent her transportation to a concentration camp) who left the party as protest against Möllemann. He was not so undisputed within his party.

Oh, I know I wasn't implying that the party as a whole was anti-semitic, far from it. Only that I think most anti-semites and ex-Nazis joined the liberals after the war, whereas the Christian Democrats were generally more on the good side, as the social democrats. Look at the 'liberal party' in Austria, they've gone completely overboard....

And I didn´t want to imply that you are implying that the FDP is as a whole anti-Semitic neither. ;)

It´s true that right after the war the FDP served as a new political home for former Nazi officials and SS officers etc. in some parts of the country, especially towards the north (political parties were much more decentralized back then, with a lot regional differences). But I doubt there is a connection between the situation then and the "Möllemann affair". The former Nazi officials I mentioned were long dead, when Möllemann started his populist campaign. I think he was more inspired by the success of Jörg Haider and Austria´s FPÖ. And the liberals in Austria always had a more "nationalist" stance, while in Germany there was also a social-liberal tradition (Hildegard Hamm-Brücher, for example).

(I hope the American users here know about the differences between the American and the European meaning of the term "liberal". I once created a lot of confusion in another American-based forum when I started to talk about "liberals" in Europe there. :D )

OK, I think you know more about the FDP than I do. :)

And on liberalism, tell me about it! We've had our fair share of controversy regarding that here as well... :)

Well, you know what I mean... that the European "liberal" has more the meaning of the American "libertarian" than the American "liberal".

Yes, I know that. :)

Good. ;)

The Beef Peace Plan:

1. Two states.
2. Israel withdraws to 1967 borders.
3. Old Jerusalem under Israeli control.
4. No right of return.
5. Israel evacuates all settlements.
6. Palestinian citizens granted right of passage between the West Bank and Gaza, and access to Old Jerusalem, but Israel may suspend that right if terrorist acts continue.

this is basiclly Clinton's plan that Barakaccepted and Arafat didn't and started a war

Yep.  But just because Arafat walked out on it doesn't mean it's not a good plan.  We all know Arafat isn't interested in peace.  Once Arafat is gone, and the Palestinian leadership shifts from a policy of annihilation to a policy of peace, then they'll be able to work things out.  The only question is how many supermarkets and buses get blown to bits before that happens :(.

I agree but
1. the fact that you know it does not mean the world does
2. Palestinian leadership shifts from a policy of annihilation to a policy of peace is something we expect for 80 years. Some of us  thought it came in the 90's and boy, were they wrong

I haven't studied the subject much, so could someone please tell me why the Israelis think the land is theirs.  After the Romans defeated them in AD 70, they were dispersed throughout the empire.  After so many years of being absent, why do they think they still have a claim on the land?

It is their homeland. Dunn is probably more well versed, he is Israeli.  Why do the Palestinians have a claim? Palestine has NEVER been a country, besides as I have said the REGION known as Palestine is mainly in Jordan.

True, Palesitne was never a country.  The Hebrews, however, were not native to Palestine, they conquered it.  In my opinion, even if they previously had a claim on the land, they were absent for about 2000 years, and other people had moved in.  

Is peace possible in palestine given the intense hatred and resentment.

I have spoken with Jews and Moslems on both sides of the issue.

While being reasonable and moderate on other issues, when the topic of Palestine comes up- whatch out!

Instant grinding of the teeth.  Otherwise reasonable people get instantly fired up.

 How can they be at peace in the same area?

Is there really any peace plan that could work?

The jews were force out and wanted to come back ever since. b/c this is their home, in every corner of the globe they prayed for jerusalem (who is mentioned in the OT 728 times. 0 in the Kor'an). Their were jews in this country during the entire history. true sometimes not many' but their were very few arabs as well (and they came in the last few centuries). and by your logic if someone throw you out of your house and you come after say 20 years back and discover another person saw it enpty and live there for the last 2 years, does that mean it not your house?

Weren't there people in "Israel" before the Jews originally moved in?

And WHO voted for "Extermination of Palestinians," they are sick bastards.

And is Israel REALLY building that wall around Palestine which will cut the Palestinians off from a bunch of their land?

Palestine is NOT A COUNTRY!!!!!

Israel are building a wall around ISRAEL for DEFENCE!!! It is to stop suicide bomber attacks and it is very effective, in the one place it has already been constructed, it stopped ALL suicide bomber attempts.

Ehhh....who's talking... ???

I didn't bother Gus, don't bother either

OK.

Israel Blows Up Hamas Leader's Car

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040417/ap_on_re_mi_ea/gaza_explosion&cid=540&ncid=716 (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040417/ap_on_re_mi_ea/gaza_explosion&cid=540&ncid=716)

Another one bites the dust.

and another 100 or so angry palestinians take his place.

yup

by the way, I just love your signature quote. :)

He was a particularly nasty guy, responsible for the deaths of a lot of Jews and one of the major blockades for peace.

Although it would be nicer if they were captured and executed, this is not as easy and so I support Israel's actions.

Amen

I'll never support a nation that forces its children to become suicide bombers.

Amen
but they are not really a nation

you are confused, Palestine isn't a Nation, never has been a country, it is just the name of a region.

Who says they aren't a nation? If they think of themselves as a nation, and I think they do, then they are. Not a state perhaps, but a nation.

nation: people of one or more cultures or races organized as a single state

Whoever came up with that definition is wrong. :P

you mean my Collins English Dictionary? lol

OK, that then. :)

if the people of south east Sweden will declare themself a nation, will they be one? I agree you don't have to have a state to be a nation (Armenian didn't, thr Kurdish don't) but still that was not Brambila point.

()

Yes. If they believe in it, they would. We come up with words, we own them. Nations are about identities.

exectly. a region is not enough

No, of course not. We're not talking about regional identities here.

Israel is a great example that proves my point in fact. The Jewish nation lived on throughout the last 2000 years, even though they didn't have a country or state.

I said that myself
but there was no palestinian nation even in 1948, they didn't create a state in the teritories when they were in Arab control till 1967

No, but if they NOW view themselves as a people they have every right to form an independent state. And I think that their time under occupation have made them a people, after a fashion.

The supply of Palestinians is not unlimited ;)

Which right wing nuts have voted for "Extermination of Palestinians"? And why do you have that as a category? Likewise with the category "Extermination of Israelis".

A bit tasteless.

I guess they wanted to cover the whole spectre...Opebo probably voted for extermination of Palestinians, he usually supports that kind of stuff... ;)

Oh. But I don't find it funny. It's like joking about the Holocaust.

Well, I guess it isn't exactly funny, but one of the great things about the forum is that you get ALL sorts of views, even ones you really disagree with.

That is why I really enjoyed those polls I created. :)

State of Israel

;)

This is from AP


TEL AVIV, Israel (AP) -- Abdel Aziz Rantisi, the Hamas leader assassinated in an Israeli air strike Saturday, was one of the highest profile and most extreme voices of the violent Islamic group.

He served as Hamas leader in Gaza for less than a month after Israel killed his predecessor, Hamas founder Sheik Ahmed Yassin, in a similar helicopter missile strike on March 22.

Rantisi rejected any accommodation with Israel, following strict Hamas ideology that called for destruction of the Jewish state in the Middle East.

A pediatrician by profession with a reasonable command of English, Rantisi was readily available to foreign journalists and was one of the most recognizable of Hamas' leaders.

Even before he was chosen to replace Yassin, Rantisi was in Israeli gunsights. Last year, an Israeli helicopter fired missiles at his vehicle, wounding him.

Rantisi told journalists that day "My priority is to unite the Palestinians in the trenches of resistance because there is no one left who believes in something called the peace process."

Rantisi, Yassin and five other men founded Hamas in 1987 at the start of a first uprising against Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The group grew into one of the region's largest militant Islamic factions and called for a Muslim Middle East without a Jewish state. The United States and Israel regard Hamas as a terrorist organization.

I put "Extermination of Palestinians" as I knew that somebody would vote for it and I had to put the "Extermination of Israelis" in otherwise it would be biased, besides, someone seems to have voted for that.

Not my views, but I KNEW we would get somebody saying it.

Opebo... ;)

But there have been 5 votes for Extermination of Palestinians and 1 for Extermination of Israelis.

Who are the other 5 people?

Weirdos. :P Jokers maybe...I don't think we have that many whacko Republicans here.

my theory is that it's the JCP people do it to look Israeli supporters look bad

Hamas Appoints New Leader After Slaying

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040418/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_16 (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040418/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_16)

Hamas secretly appointed a new Gaza Strip chief early Sunday, but refused to reveal his identity following Israel's assassination of two previous Hamas leaders in less than a month.

I would not be surprise if it was not them because a lot of people on this forum don't like Arabs.

that is suprizing really, this a left leaning forum

yes it is but we still have our few people who are not. :)

Hamas vows '100 retaliations' for leader's assassination

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1106&ncid=1106&e=4&u=/ft/20040418/bs_ft/1079420413110 (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1106&ncid=1106&e=4&u=/ft/20040418/bs_ft/1079420413110)

Yeah I know I saw that, and I was going to edit it but got lazy, thinking you guys would get the point.

"I'll never support a culture that forces its children to become suicide bombers".

Dunn, check out Al Bushra (http://www.al-bushra.org/). I know the racist Catholic Lebanese priest who started it, and he's EXTREMELY anti-semitic. They have a ridiculous here (http://www.al-bushra.org/israel/said.html).


I am Israel - with the fourth strongest army in the world, possessing
nuclear weapons. How dare your children confront my oppression with
stones, don't you know my soldiers won't hesitate to blow their heads
off? In 17 months, I have killed 900 of you and injured 17,000,mostly
civilians, and have the mandate to continue since the international
community remains silent. Ignore, as I do, the hundreds of Israeli
soldiers who are now refusing to carry out my control over your lands
and people; their voices of conscience will not protect you.


Do you know how many Jews were killed in your terrorist attacks? How dare you brainwash your children into thinking Jews are evil. You have no right to exist.

I really don't think the West Bank has many rights to exist. Although Palestine (as in Israel/West Bank) had 500 thousand Arabs and 70 thousand Jews, the population of the Jews in the middle east was on a decline, and specifically in Israel was the population declining. The Jews suffered heavy blows from Palestinian massacres of them, and from 1900 to today Jews have been heavily persecuted in Arab nations, where in Libya today there are no more Jews. Now Jews have their own nation, and are very successful (we're in 1967 now). So naturally, many surrounding LARGER nations are jealous of the jews, but unethically they start a war against them. When the Jews defeat the Syrians, Jordanians, Iraqis, and Egyptians in one blow, the Jews give up Sinai heights (stupid on Israel's part).

So anyway, that's what I think of the current situation.

I'm not particularly well informed about the matter, however I tend to sympathise with Israel, even though I think some of their actions are a little unhelpful. As I see it. Israel is a democracy, which respects the civil rights of it's citizens. Palestine is not and never has been a state or a democracy. Whatsmore the Palestinian leaders actively support terrorism.
It seems quite simple to me.
I would favour the creation of a Palestinian state consisting of the west bank and gaza strip. Palestinians should renounce any claim to territory within Israel and should recognise it's right to exist as a sovereign state.  Failure to do so is surely an act of war?

()

Irradication of Palestinoens and Isreal as the sole state, period it solves all the problems.

I don't understand how the Palestinians have a claim to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.  As George Will pointed out in his most recent column (http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/national/will/story/8915961p-9842337c.html), the territories are unalocated from the 1922 Palestinian mandate.

Israel keeps winning land in wars that it doesn't start, then Palestinians, the UN, and other anti-Israel organizations carp about how Israel should give back some of that land to the Palestinians.  I just don't see it that way.

Amen Steve, Amen George

Yeah. As I always say, giving up the Sinai penninsula to Egypt was Israel's biggest mistake ever. lol. That was actually a pretty funny war, the six day war in 1967.

I disagree, Israel got rid of Egypt as an enemy, that was pretty good.

But the six day war was a cool war, breathtaking.

EDIT: 'cool' was a bad choice of words and recognizing of course that a war is no game, something I believe that I have proven previously, I aplogize for and retake this statement.

NO war is cool
trust me

hey, you beat me to it, I was about to say that lol.

Sorry, bad choice of words. I know that war is no game of course. I've just always been fascinated by how Israel beat off their attackers so swiftly, that's all. I retake my statement and apologize for it.

It's ok Gus , no need to apologize :)
it's just a bad word to describe war. And it was fascinated 6 days o/c

Sure. Eradication is probably a good policy, as was shown in Europe in the 1940's.

I mean, why don't people react to these kind of comments? What would happen if someone said that the best policy was for Palestinian terrorists to blow up Israelis until there were none of them left? It's just sickening.

I would have reacted, but I didn't see it before...values aren't things that one can easily discuss, if people do not accept a universal principle, like the sanctuity of human life, it's pretty hard to convince him to. One can of course state one's disagreement, which I will now: I deeply disagree with MasterJedi's 'solution', since it's barbaric and unworthy of a civilized country.

Gustaf, the thing is Egypt ATTACKED Israel. When Israel took over the Sinai penninsula, that should have been Israel's punishment. The Sinai penninsula is RICH with oil. Israel could have made a fortune. They could have actually benefitted from the war that Egypt, Syria, and several other muslim nations started.

I actually know all of that, but I don't see it affecting my point in any way...also, Israel attacked Egypt in the Suez War.

The only reason why Israel attacked Egypt was because Egypt blocked it's path to the Red Sea and Egypt was harboring Palestinian militants, who attacked Israel from Egyptian territory.

Actually, they were asked to do so by the UK and France...the reason for the war was that the Egypt government decided to confiscate Franco-English shares of the Suez channel.

He was talking about 56' not 67'

true

Yay! Confirmation from Dunn! :) Take that Brambilla... ;)

Oh. Wrong war.

;)

you still know waaaaay better then most people Brambila

I know very little, actually... but I'm able to see the situation and who the guilty party actually is.

A quarter of San Francisco's population is Jewish, and although there is not a whole lot of Jewish persecution here, if you drive 15 minutes north to Berkeley, you'll see that violence against pro-israeli Jews (and some not even taking a position!) is not uncommon.  (http://berkeleyboycott.com/kristal.htm)

thank you for that link