Atlas Forum

Atlas Fantasy Elections => Atlas Fantasy Government => Topic started by: 12th Doctor on January 02, 2005, 01:14:57 am



Title: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: 12th Doctor on January 02, 2005, 01:14:57 am
The President has requested that I submit the following legislation for debate by the Senate.


                          Taiwan Protection Act

Be it enacted by the Atlasian Senate here assembled

Section 1: The Atlasian Millitary shall send a division of Aircraft Carries to gurad the Taiwan strait.

Section 2: The Government of Atlasia shall increase funding to Taiwan by $600 million a month.

Section 3: The Atlasian Senate will be allowed to aide Pro-Democratic and Free China Operatives in Mainland China and Taiwan.

Section 4: Missle Technology will be allowed to be shared with Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea.

Section 5 This will take effect February 1, 2005.

Therefore, Taiwan will be defended by the following measures.


I have insisted that the President strike the first section.  Though he said he would pass a bill without it, I am still submitting it for the approval of the Senate as I originally recieved it.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawan Protection Act
Post by: Gabu on January 02, 2005, 01:19:41 am
I like the idea of protecting Taiwan in principle, but I really don't like Section 1, and to a lesser extent, Section 3.  Carrying out Section 1 could easily make China very nervous, and a nervous China is not an asset to global stability and to the movement to stop all possibility of nuclear war by any means.  Section 3 I could live with if I had to, but, again, I think that openly supporting people whose goal is, as far as I can tell, the overthrow of the current Chinese government, is not a good idea.

If that's not what the Pro-Democratic and Free China Operatives are for, please correct me.

(PS: You can change your title to simply "Senator" now. ;) )


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawan Protection Act
Post by: Jake on January 02, 2005, 01:23:41 am
The President has requested that I submit the following legislation for debate by the Senate.


                          Taiwan Protection Act

Be it enacted by the Atlasian Senate here assembled

Section 1: The Atlasian Millitary shall send a division of Aircraft Carries to gurad the Taiwan strait.

Section 2: The Government of Atlasia shall increase funding to Taiwan by $600 million a month.

Section 3: The Atlasian Senate will be allowed to aide Pro-Democratic and Free China Operatives in Mainland China and Taiwan.

Section 4: Missle Technology will be allowed to be shared with Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea.

Section 5 This will take effect February 1, 2005.

Therefore, Taiwan will be defended by the following measures.


I have insisted that the President strike the first section.  Though he said he would pass a bill without it, I am still submitting it for the approval of the Senate as I originally recieved it.

I'm not a senator but I'll comment.

1) Aircraft Carriers are not grouped by divissions as far as I know, so I'll assume you are talking about one or two.  This would be akin to the Chinese parking their new battle fleet off of San Fransico. Gross miscalculation.

2) Instead of cash we should send newer air defense missles and radar systems like the new Patriot PAC-3/4 system.

3)I like this section

4)What type of missle types are you suggesting. Patriot PAC-3/4s, the ABMs we are developing, hopefully not Minutemen :)

5) No problem

I'd also add a section 6

6) The Atlasia recognizes the right of the Republic of China to sovereign rule and representation in the United Nations.  It shall be the policy of Atlasia that the RoC should be defended against any attack.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawan Protection Act
Post by: The Duke on January 02, 2005, 01:35:07 am
I'll make the same recommendations, more or less, that I gave the President when he asked me about this bill.

Section one must go.  As was suggested, carriers are not grouped by division.  I have qualms about mandating by law that one carrier be near Taiwan at all times (That's not specifically what it says, but it can't mean anything short term only since I already sent a carrier group and more to the area and I can't imagine someone wants to legally mandate soemthing that already happenned.)  Nor should the exact location of carriers be fixed by law.  I need flexibility on positioning these ships anywhere in WestPac where they will be most effective at any given time.  mandating their presence in the stait itself makes them provocative, vulnerable, and adds no deterrent effect above what is done by the existence of a regular carrier presence in WestPac.  As I said, this section simply must go.

$600 million a month somes to $7.2 billion per year, and would make Taiwan the #1 recipient of US aid in the world.  Make sure you want to spend that money here in this quantity before you sign off on it.

Section 3 is fine, though it carries an obvious diplomatic risk.

Section 4 is fine if limited to ABM technology.

It should read Therefore, Taiwan will be defended by the preceding measures (not "following measures") at the end.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawan Protection Act
Post by: 12th Doctor on January 02, 2005, 01:46:27 am
I agree with the Sec. of Defense on Article 1 and would also add that, though I am not a realist, the Chinese are and they clearly see the strait and being within their shpere of influence.  Moving a battle-group there would be seen, by the Chinese, as a major threat.

Also, I am opposed at this time to any legislation that would recongnize Taiwan.  Though I dream of a day that we can make this move, our standing in the world is not as such, at the moment, for us to endevor into such a bold move against a major power.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: JohnFKennedy on January 05, 2005, 01:43:19 pm
I hereby open the debate on this bill.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: JohnFKennedy on January 05, 2005, 01:55:42 pm
As others have already pointed out the problems with section 1 I will not comment on that section myself.

Section 2, as John Ford has said will cost us $7.2 billion per annum which is an exorbitant amount of money, I would prefer that if we are intending to grant aid to Taiwan that it scaled back. Taiwan is not our closest ally and I would not agree with it being the greatest recipient of Atlasian aid.

Section 3 sounds risky to me, it seems to be an open act of indirect aggression against China. If we are to fund these groups in China, I would far prefer it to be done a bit more discreetly than this.

Section 4 needs clarification. Is this to be ALL Atlasian missile technology? Is it to be up-to-date top-of-the-range technology or do we mean lesser technology. I would advise against sharing the best we have with nations in these areas as it is always possible for parts to go "missing".

John Ford has already pointed out the mistake with section 5 so I do not need to.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: Gabu on January 06, 2005, 06:33:42 pm
I think that there seems to be a general consensus that we should amend this bill to strike Section 1, so I'd like to propose that amendment.

The rest of the bill I can live with, though I'm still not 100% comfortable with Section 3.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: Jake on January 06, 2005, 07:35:24 pm
How about something like this?


                          Taiwan Protection Act

Be it enacted by the Atlasian Senate here assembled that:

previous Section 1 removed

Section 1: The Government of Atlasia shall increase funding to Taiwan by $60 million a month.

Section 2: The Atlasian Senate will be allowed to aide Pro-Democratic and Free China Operatives in Mainland China and Taiwan.

possibly strike this section for points raised by Gabu in the Midgard Chronicle thread, mostly overt support would antagonize the chinese more.

Section 3: The Patriot Advanced Capability-3 and its associated radar and support equipment will be allowed to be shared with Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea.

Section 4 This will take effect February 1, 2005.

Therefore, Taiwan will be defended by the preceding measures.


My changes in bold.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: JohnFKennedy on January 12, 2005, 03:28:01 pm
I would like to propose the amendment laid out by Jake.

As it is now time would all please vote on the amendment.

---------------

Yea


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: Nym90 on January 12, 2005, 03:38:23 pm
Yea.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on January 12, 2005, 06:02:09 pm
Aye


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: Akno21 on January 12, 2005, 06:05:51 pm
Are you guys allowed to vote on an amendment put out by someone not a Senator?


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: DanielX on January 12, 2005, 06:14:25 pm
I urge Senators to pass this bill.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: Gabu on January 12, 2005, 06:15:41 pm
Are you guys allowed to vote on an amendment put out by someone not a Senator?

John F. Kennedy proposed the amendment right before calling a vote.

Regarding the amendment:

Yea.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: Akno21 on January 12, 2005, 06:19:29 pm
Are you guys allowed to vote on an amendment put out by someone not a Senator?

John F. Kennedy proposed the amendment right before calling a vote.


Thanks. I read it too quickly.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: Defarge on January 12, 2005, 10:11:00 pm
Yea


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: WMS on January 12, 2005, 11:21:08 pm
Yea.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: 12th Doctor on January 12, 2005, 11:22:13 pm
Glad to see this out of the grave again.

I vote Aye on the amendment.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: 2,868,691 on January 13, 2005, 08:05:05 am
the amendment passes then.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: JohnFKennedy on January 13, 2005, 11:11:07 am
With seven votes in favour to none opposed I declare the amendment passed.

Now voting can begin on the amended bill seen in Jake's post on page one.


All Senators please vote yea, nay or abstain.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: Bono on January 13, 2005, 11:26:44 am
Nay.
I abstain in the ammendment, for the record.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: 12th Doctor on January 13, 2005, 12:14:03 pm
yea


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: Gabu on January 13, 2005, 03:52:53 pm
Yea.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: Defarge on January 13, 2005, 05:36:14 pm
Yea


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: Siege40 on January 13, 2005, 06:42:18 pm
Yea.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: King on January 13, 2005, 07:28:16 pm
The People of the Pacific Region support this bill...


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: ThePrezMex on January 13, 2005, 07:31:57 pm
I want to speak strongly against the approval of this Bill and ask my senators: WMS and StatesRights to vote nay.
It is because of the proposal of this highly irresponsible bill that I decided to finally register on the fantasy election board. We have an increasingly important economic relationship with China. Direct investment in China is huge, especially from Texas based companies like Dell and Texas Instruments, as well as AMD. The business sector of my state is highly concerned about the possible retaliations that the Chinese government could apply against our investments there. This bill does not take into consideration the negative economic consequences.
Furthermore, escalating tensions with China is clearly not helpful towards the solution of the North Korean problem. It is also a clear distraction on the war against terror.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: 12th Doctor on January 13, 2005, 08:01:15 pm
I want to speak strongly against the approval of this Bill and ask my senators: WMS and StatesRights to vote nay.
It is because of the proposal of this highly irresponsible bill that I decided to finally register on the fantasy election board. We have an increasingly important economic relationship with China. Direct investment in China is huge, especially from Texas based companies like Dell and Texas Instruments, as well as AMD. The business sector of my state is highly concerned about the possible retaliations that the Chinese government could apply against our investments there. This bill does not take into consideration the negative economic consequences.
Furthermore, escalating tensions with China is clearly not helpful towards the solution of the North Korean problem. It is also a clear distraction on the war against terror.

Are you at all aware of Atlasia's current relations with China?  They are in the process off building a blue water fleet.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: Colin on January 13, 2005, 08:16:04 pm
I want to speak strongly against the approval of this Bill and ask my senators: WMS and StatesRights to vote nay.
It is because of the proposal of this highly irresponsible bill that I decided to finally register on the fantasy election board. We have an increasingly important economic relationship with China. Direct investment in China is huge, especially from Texas based companies like Dell and Texas Instruments, as well as AMD. The business sector of my state is highly concerned about the possible retaliations that the Chinese government could apply against our investments there. This bill does not take into consideration the negative economic consequences.
Furthermore, escalating tensions with China is clearly not helpful towards the solution of the North Korean problem. It is also a clear distraction on the war against terror.

Are you at all aware of Atlasia's current relations with China?  They are in the process off building a blue water fleet.

I would also suggest that you read the last maybe 5 pages of this thread:
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=7447.0

That will give you the current China situation.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: ThePrezMex on January 13, 2005, 08:40:12 pm
I've read carefully the news about China. I think it can be pretty easily discovered that the present tension with China has been created by the media. It is kind of worrying that all the news feeds are coming from certain individuals from certain foreign individuals in charge of the media (RMurdoch.. sorry, no, Hugh) - it raises suspicion about their true motivations.
In any case, this bill will certainly hurt the investments of Atlasian businesses and I second the calls of prominent Presidential candidates to cool down things with China.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: Colin on January 13, 2005, 08:42:15 pm
I've read carefully the news about China. I think it can be pretty easily discovered that the present tension with China has been created by the media. It is kind of worrying that all the news feeds are coming from certain individuals from certain foreign individuals in charge of the media (RMurdoch.. sorry, no, Hugh) - it raises suspicion about their true motivations.
In any case, this bill will certainly hurt the investments of Atlasian businesses and I second the calls of prominent Presidential candidates to cool down things with China.

Problem is Hugh is our GM. He creates storylines for us to work with. He creates the foreign affairs and major internal affairs problems the government has to deal with.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: Platypus on January 13, 2005, 11:59:06 pm
:D

BTW, the main reason the Chinese problem got so big was lack of action by the government, and....misguided actions afterwards, from a Chinese viewpoint. They're hardly going to like a bill in the Atlasian senate allowing rebels in their own nation.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: Nym90 on January 14, 2005, 02:49:52 am
Aye.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: The Duke on January 14, 2005, 02:54:52 am
:D

BTW, the main reason the Chinese problem got so big was lack of action by the government, and....misguided actions afterwards, from a Chinese viewpoint. They're hardly going to like a bill in the Atlasian senate allowing rebels in their own nation.

And we don't like Chinese policy allowing oppression in their nation.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: ?????????? on January 14, 2005, 04:54:11 am
Yea


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: JohnFKennedy on January 14, 2005, 01:55:54 pm
I have decided to abstain on this issue over the issue of funding directly internal rebels.

I now close the vote with six in favour to one opposed with one abstention.

I call upon the President to sign this bill into law.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: 12th Doctor on January 14, 2005, 01:57:41 pm
I have decided to abstain on this issue over the issue of funding directly internal rebels.

I now close the vote with six in favour to one opposed with one abstention.

I call upon the President to sign this bill into law.

Thats been the result of a lot of Senate votes lately.  Who are our two missing Senators?


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: WMS on January 14, 2005, 07:59:08 pm
I have decided to abstain on this issue over the issue of funding directly internal rebels.

I now close the vote with six in favour to one opposed with one abstention.

I call upon the President to sign this bill into law.

Thats been the result of a lot of Senate votes lately.  Who are our two missing Senators?

Varies by bill. This is the first one I missed, because the debate went faster than expected.

And I vote Aye, just so that my constituents know where I stand.


Title: Re: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
Post by: PBrunsel on January 14, 2005, 08:48:44 pm
I proudly sign this bill:

President PBrunsel