Talk Elections

and give me the Book of Mormon.  I figured they would just mail it to me for free but now it says local missionaries will contact me within a few days and set up a house visit and give me the book by hand.  should be interesting.

Despite TWO "No Soliciting" signs on my front door, I still get the occasional Mormon and Girl Scout.  They don't come to your door now?

Some knocked at my door a few years ago.

They are easy to spot, he had a name tag where his name and "Église de Jésus-Christ des saints des derniers jours" were written.

I was stunned than they came in my remote area, very far from Utah (and talking a very good French, too).

If I ever run into them again I'm going to ask them why they don't raise their hands or dance at their church services.

It's always good to get a free book.

Ask them about Moneybags Mittens.

Making fun of followers of any religion - even the stupid ones - makes God angry.

Will you offer them PBRs?

You can ask most normal Christians that.

Just let in the good-looking missionary-loving Mormon girls, not creepy Mitt-types.

no, but I decided on my first gimmick a few moments ago.  I'll have a pot of coffee on when they come in and promptly offer it to them.

What are PBRs?

seriously dude?

Yeah, srsly.  What are they? 

Pabst Blue Ribbons? Performance-based requirements? Beats me.

Pabst Blue Ribbon, a cheap American lager that has had a resurgence in the past handful of years mainly on the backs of people of my demographic (people will associate it with 'hipsters' but it's broader than that and hipster verges on being a meaningless term regardless).

I would never allow a Mormon to step foot in my home. You're a braver man than I, Tweed.

I'm obliged to post....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbxGgCY9PKw

"But my Church offers a further revelation: We believe that when Jesus Christ returns to earth, He will return, not to Jerusalem, or to Baghdad, but to this great nation—and His first stop will be Jackson County, Missouri. The LDS Church teaches that the Garden of Eden itself was in Missouri! Friends, it is a marvelous vision. Some Christians profess not to like this teaching. But I ask you, where would you rather the Garden of Eden be, in the great state of Missouri or in some hellhole in the Middle East?"

I've chatted with Mormon Missionaries before.  I was polite and said that there was no way I would give up caffeine or alcohol for any God, including theirs.

Might be a little too cliched - I'm sure they get that a lot. I think it'd be cooler to have (technically legal) drug paraphernalia lying around in plain view, but don't actually make any references to their existence.

They're getting cheap.  They used to give it out to gentiles in hardcover.  (I have one from circa 1982.  I assume it hasn't changed much since then.)  Later, I saw them and they'd only give it out in paperback.  This was when you'd see them on their bicycles.  Guys in white shirts, black ties, dress slacks and dress shoes riding bicycles.  Must be the Mormons.  Jehovah's witness fit the same description except apparently they don't ride bicycles.  But they'd give you a copy, on the street, just for the asking.  Apparently they won't even give you a paperback copy now unless you sign up for a home visit. 

Quite funnily, the only Bible we have at home is a Jehovah bible.
They were handing them out if we left them come at home to try to convert us.

The problem was than they kept coming.
And if they saw we were there but just not answering them, they stayed in front of the door.
And they came back even if we told them to not come back.

They got tired after a few weeks.


In Montreal, they distribute their "Watchtower" in the subway stations. It is easy, in the subway, if you see people handing out things, either it is the Jehovah, either the Larouchites.

Really? She told me that she thinks it's hilarious.

I have a tentative appt for 230 on Saturday.  I also have a "date" (ie, appointment with sexually attractive female) scheduled for late Saturday afternoon, so.  something may have to give.  and wouldn't want the first date to be, "yo, I am having LDS missionaries over, you want to just have me make coffee and save the 80 cents off of retail" kinda deal.

"we're excited to meet ya" on a Voicemail.  she sounds sweet.  sorry guys I don't think I'm going to offer her coffee or beer or anything, I'd feel very guilty.  I may try to have sex with her though.

Aren't you supposedly supporting one for President now?

well, she might be very deceived, but she ain't that desperate.

;)

Bushie has betrayed his God.

Doesn't mean I would let him step foot in my house, though.

Are you serious, BushOK?

Same as with the Black man he supported for President four years ago, so I would suppose so. >:D

Let me clarify.  I would let him step into my home on Presidential/cordial terms, not as a Mormon trying to convert me.  The moment he starts trying to convert me, I would show him the door.

I would enjoy having President Obama in my home, because there is at least a chance he is a Christian, nobody knows for sure.  Romney is definitely not a Christian, he's a Mormon (I'm not going to get into the differences at this time).

My vote for President Romney is not about his religious beliefs, because I think he will keep them separate from public policy.  My vote for Romney is about Obama wanting to cut the military.  That turned me off real fast.  I still would not be too disappointed if Obama wins in 9 months, because he's done several pretty good things in his first term.

As an evangelical Christian, shouldn't you let Romney (and Obama if he isn't a Christian) stay as long as they want and try to convert them?

To be honest, cutting defense (even though not by near enough) is one of the most responsible things Obama has done as President.

It's been the most sensible and strategic cut since the Nixon era.

Indeed, but if you ask the current Republican circus acts, we desperately need to cut Medicare and Social Security, while lowering taxes and maintaining absurd Pentagon funding.

One of the reasons I am supporting Mitt Romney, even though he's a Mormon and not a Christian is that Mormonism is very family-oriented, one thing I do have to give them a whole heck of a lot of credit for.  They are probably more family-oriented than evangelical Christians, sad to say, but true.  I know Barack Obama has a real sense of family, and has been commended for such by Gov. Mitch Daniels in the SOTU Republican Response.  Governor Romney shares more of the values I agree with on the major issues.  We don't see eye-to-eye on everything, but he's the closest one to my views.

well, Brothers, it happened.  they were here for about an hour, I just kicked them out.

I'm sorry to report to you fellas that I didn't play any practical jokes... no, I even went to the trouble of removing the boxes of Corona Light and Miller High Life that were scattered on the floor, and (gasp) put the Cusinart 4-cup coffee machine back in the cupboard.  Tweed, respectful?  ha!

well, yes, I guess I was.  there were three of them.  two were proper missionaries and one a Cornell student that just tags along on her free time.  from here on in I'll drop my own voice and just try to report events as best I can say they happened.

__


they came in the door and I offered them seats.  they were a bit awkward, and I'm sure I was too.  all three were women, age 19-22.  one was good looking, we'll get to that later.  so, I offered them seats, and they decided to cram onto my two-seater couch rather than risk the torn-up chair with an MLB pillow on it for a backrest.

we opened with a prayer.  I bowed my head properly.  we're glad we could be here with David tonight in Ithaca, bless him, etc.  and then we got on with it.  they asked me the following:

what led me to request a Book of Mormon?
what was my religious background (if any)?
have I had any moments particularly of spiritual inclination? (later defined as a sense of spiritual peace, rather than an emotional high, after conversation)
do I believe it is possible to attain a sense of spiritual certainty?


I must toot my own horn here for a bit.  I positively 'wowed' them with my knowledge of Mormon theology... though I'm sure it is but cursory in the presence of the three devotees, my days ostensibly wasted on Wikipedia and in Barnes & Noble apparently are good for a bit of backdoor shock value.  the moment came as I asked a question that went something like "so after the Lamanites slayed the last of the Nephites, there was no contact between God and the people of Earth until Joseph Smith 1200 years later?'  and they were like wtf, who are you.  of course in a nice way, they were nice people.


ok I'll write part two in a bit.  feel free to ask questions or offer comments as I sip on my Corona Light and get this thread back on track, and also anger Snowstalker by stoking the searing flames of the Forum's continuing obsession with the LDS holy Fire.

Part II.


I'm fully addicted to this place.  fully admit it, no qualms, nothing.  I'm more yours than you are mine.  but going through that, there's a fundamental truth, that ascribes me into my own Atlas experience: you are, my diary of sorts.


so what is pain?  is pain something that we convince ourselves that we feel, or is it real?  because, look, I understand how to minimize my pain.  and I've been to the therapy sessions, and I've seen the results.  but instead of the momentum finding a way to snowball, as the speed times time formula or whatever it is would suggest, oh no, it... the negativity creeps up.  it's lurking, and I can beat it back for 24, 48 hours on a good run, but then it is BOOM! and I just crave it.  don't crave the negativity per se, no, just the emotional potency of it.  I'd take positive, happy emotional potency if it existed, but I have this scary feeling that it doesn't, that only through drugs and their likeness have I accustomed myself to that search for emotional-psychic high, a spiritually dangerous thing to do to oneself.

so, do I need religion?  do I need Joseph Smith?  "do I need love or just a blowjob", as Johnny Hobo once put it.  well, I'd like both.  I'd like cake, and eat the cake too, and not just eat the cake too, but to eat it without the carbohydrate content, so I could be slim, looking at cake, and having ate it, and married, and happy.  but our human minds are gifted with this stupid capability to fantasize, and the reality never quite seems to catch up with the fantasy.


part III later.

turns out my therapist is a lapsed Mormon who spent two years as a missionary in Chile.  small world.

you're dropping the ball wrt to part 3 BT.

Part II got pretty existential, which is fine. I kind of wanted to know the rest of the main story though.


Haha, really? Are you saying that because we can never really know if someone beliefs or not, or because he's a black man with a scary sounding name?

I'm looking forward to Part III, Tweed. This is one of the most genuinely insightful threads you've made here.

U doesn't like girl scout cookies :O

All Marriotts come with Books of Mormon in the room; I stole one a few months ago from a Marriott by Charlotte Airport, and got pretty far before losing interest. It's a great story, some parts vaguely remind me of Game of Thrones :)

(Or it might not be Marriott, some other big hotel chain. I think it's Marriott, though).

You can also get a completely free iBook of Mormon from the iBookstore :)

I'll write part three today.  due to the popular demand.  usually I hardly ever finish what I start, but this will be an exception.  it's on my official list of things to do today along with reading the Book of Mormon, going to a 1pm appointment, and rededicating myself to health.

As I mentioned, one of the three was good-looking.  She had blond hair, cut to shoulder length (I wonder if they have a restriction to this effect)… she was also endowed with deep, big, blue eyes, which fixated on me without fail (as per her LDS missionary training in Provo, I would later learn from my lapsed Mormon therapist) as she recounted her testimony.  Draping her lively face were thick-rimmed, large-lensed, even ‘hipsterish’ glasses, a small concession to modernity amid the fit-for-the-19th-Century getup.  The attire made it difficult to tell what she was carrying in the important areas: tits, ass, and so on, and I suppose that’s the entire point.

Despite any serious visual encouragement, as she continued her testimony, my mind started wandering.  Not in the fantasizing-about-having-sex with her sort of way, though, admittedly, there was a bit of that.  Most of the time, though, my mind went far from the room, even far away from her.  The vision had me somewhere in Utah… not Provo, I wouldn’t go that crazy, but it did seem to be a rural area.  Hopefully within reasonable driving distance of Salt Lake City so I could get a touch of what I’d be missing out on when I started to crave it.

So there I was, deep in the corners of my own mind, married to Sister Smith, at the very reasonable Mormon age of 22, holding a job as a human resource manager for some mid-sized firm.  (My fantasies are always well-thought out, making concessions to the Real: my earning power in the mountain West is sure to dwarf what it would be in my native tri-State area).

Oh, Lord! The novelty of my Ivy League degree amidst the sea of BYU and Utah State grads.  And how I would impress Sister Smith’s mother, I swear I would… in a month I could master enough LDS theology and history to convince them all of my worthiness of Latter-Day Sainthood.  They’d be convinced of how curious and learned I am just by my reading of mainstream biographies of George Washington and inane American exceptionalist histories of the Civil War.  How easy it would all be!  And when I needed my fix I could always sneak onto the Atlas and hunt-and-peck my way towards an impassioned defense of Lenin, or head into Salt Lake proper and catch a show or an indie film, or even StubHub my way into seats when the Clippers come to town two or three times a year.  I’d have my outlets!

And what makes this fantasy stick, is that it’s not impossible.  It’s not too far from the real.  I could never believe in my heart that God talked to Joseph Smith Jr. on that dark 1823 night, I could never write an archaeological dissertation feigning to prove the historicity of the Nephites.  But is this really the question, are the critics putting the cart before the horse?  Religion and God are there to serve us, to give us comfort in this otherwise cold, harsh, dark alley.  And while my fantasy is sure to be flawed, idealized, whatever, it’s not too far from a truth that repeats itself countless times over, and is repeating as we speak.  All I have to believe is that the whole package is a “spiritually correct analog”, or even just a “spiritually useful analog”, and head on my merry way to the snow-capped pastures.




Part 4 will contain a more dispassionate recounting of the events that I remember about the trip and have not yet covered.

I didn't know Naso taught courses in writing style.

that doesn't even vaguely resemble anything Naso would write.

are you high?  you seriously, seriously need to do a search of the bible (OT/NT) on the word "remnant"...you will find the above idea completely contrary to scripture, both OT and NT, for, according to the bible, there has never been a time period when God did not have a representative on earth.

This sounds lovely, almost. I can almost imagine it myself. Go ahead. Do it, Cornell. Think of Sister Smith! Think of the wonder of Mormonism, its all-American straightforwardsness! So simple, so godly! Do it!

Vosem- yes, it's Marriott. The founder was J. Willard Marriott... guess who was named after him. Maybe I'll read one next time I'm there, but I'd much rather prefer actual missionaries. Three people- all trying to save me! How noble!

...wait, who is God's current representative on Earth?

The President receives revelations from God and to that extent is a prophet.

those who are filled with the Spirit of Christ

I too am surprised that jmfcst seems to recognize the supremacy and infallibility in religious matters of God's representative on earth, our Pope, Benedict XVI.

But is he? I'm not sure anymore.

Your lack of belief is troubling, yet not in itself enough to doom your eternal soul, my friend. Thankfully the Holy Catholic Church does not expect too much faith from its adherents and in fact does not consider faith in itself enough to make the cut. You should focus on good deeds if you want to save yourself from the Worm that never dies.*



*: And just imagine spending all eternity in the company of wormy.

Nice prose, Tweed. Bring on Part 4.

Yes! And I'm kidding, although this Mormonism sounds rather engaging. The pope is the pope.

at the end, we prayed.  they wanted me to lead the prayer.  I declined.  "I'd rather not".  I totally would rather not.  what the  would I say?  what would I say?  in that moment where the dishonest met the honest, the line blurred, the eternal transposed itself?  I won't lie, I felt a tingle, when they expressed their care for me the first time.  so what would I say?  did I care about them?  do I care about them?  am I just a cynical bitch?  let me give it a shot.  (ftr I have Christian-ish music playing as I write this.)

'dear God, reveal yourself to me.  I'm lost, I'm tired.  I have that deep, spiritual tiredness and nothing works.  nothing works anymore.  thank you for sending these people to me: I won't question their motives, it's not my place to judge, as Your son once said, at least I think he said.  not eloquent, not rehearsed, just me.  You're supposed to have made me, and love me as I am, so I'll hold You to it.  Amen.'

and they've had batted an eye or two, nothing more.  and they're limited.  and they're idiots, if we're to carry it a bit further.  and maybe you the reader sense a 'but', an inflection point, coming up here.  the reason?  Tweed can't write a thought without giving the two sides of it.  without counterposing the two possibilities, secretly hedging his position, trying to cloak it in his skill with words.

but there's only so much trickery.  you can trick men.  into Ivy League degrees.  into law school acceptance.  into paying for your food and drink.  into having sex with you.  but! and here it is.  you can't trick God.  and following from that.  you can't trick yourself into a sense of spiritual certainty.  and here it is.  if I die tonight I'm scared, scared to death, and it goes on.

I mean to make it official.  alcohol does not work for me anymore.  coffee and energy drinks only drive me to alcohol.  I have read enough, I know enough to make it true.  I plan to go to service on Sunday.  I consider myself a member of the Latter-day Saint movement: colloquially, a Mormon.

Congratulations.  I don't believe in God, but I believe that organization can give you a sense of belonging and trick you into believing there is a higher power.  At some points in our lives, we need a higher power and a congregation of fellow believers.  So don't let others ridicule you, have your fun with Mormonism.

Mineral?

Lol

::)

I feel like I'm being duped. It seems to be falling together far too easily

But, obviously, the only way to sufficiently express your gratitude is to marry Sister Smith and live out the dream of Part 4- without the not buying it part. But I'm glad you may or may not have found God, even if we see him... somewhat differently.

He has to be trolling?

Still not funny, Tweed, though it's good you're willing to try a new act I suppose.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

not sure if he is trolling, but I am sure that I warned him.  

I like this though, well done.

But do remember that the phrase "drink the koolaid" is literally about them poisoning you.

I actually think this is a positive development, since it means Tweed is moving toward Christ. Now he just needs to reject the Book of Mormon and LDS hierarchy and rituals and take Christ alone, and he's where he should be.

Tweed are you going to wear a tie Sunday? Or a band shirt?

I kind of have an unofficial rule that I'll never go to a church where the pastor wears a tie, which kind of eliminates me from ever going to a Mormon church. Unless of course they are doing it "ironically". Honestly if I ever was preaching I might wear a tie...but with a band shirt and torn jeans as well. And if I bothered to buy a tie and learn how to tie it as well.

One of the strangest things in this world is the number of women who know how to tie a tie and number of men who don't.

Keep us updated.

So is Tweed going to vote for Romney?

Hey Tweed do you still have your Lenin shirt from your communist phase? You should wear that on Sunday.

I do still have my Lenin shirt (two of them actually -- the more incendiary of the two has a big portrait of Lenin on the front with 'WWLD?' in bold caps under his face. no, I'm not going to wear that)... the student branch of Ithaca LDS meets at 9am Sunday, now I just need to find a ride.

Tweed, I know from reading this that you don't really believe in Mormonism, but have chosen to join it. However, you have made reference to God as well. Do you believe in God?

I vaguely remember reading you could contact the missionaries to accompany you to services.

Haha,  The Jets, Mets, and Islanders triumvirate of suck finally pushed someone over the edge into drastic action.  Hell, if he is a Knicks fan like me, he may end up joining one of those fundamentalist LDS cults.   Stay strong Brother Tweed.

If you're for real about this, you might want to try finding a Community of Christ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_of_Christ) near you; they might be more to your taste ideologically.  Congrats!  If you're not for real about this, have you considered going into writing?  Your style isn't quite the kind that I go for, but you have chops.

while I would very probably 'fit better' with RLDS, I choose LDS as it is the most important, if you will, and therefore viewed as the inheritor of the latter day saint tradition.  the influence I can have through there is therefore greatest. 

as for the last bit, I do appreciate the compliment, but see no incompatibility with being 'for real' and continuing to write... I would even be critical of the idea it is necessarily clear that, first of all, even if all the words I've written are to be taken at face value, I am 'for real' about conversion, and, second, critical of the idea that I necessarily must know myself whether or not I am 'for real'.

Does anyone else not believe for one second that this is genuine?

Nice try.

So did you go to church today?

no.  no ride.  my friend says he will go with me to the 9am student service next Sunday, and I'll do what I can to hold him to it.  he is the most dependable friend I have up here, not prone to flake, so it seems likely to happen.

also, it's a Temple, BRTD, get it right.

No it isn't. You are not allowed into the Temple, until you are consecrated or whatever the term is in LDS vocabulary, and the stake president signs off that you have tithed on time. You sir, are going to a mere church.

well that sucks.  the missionaries didn't give me any of that info.

Yeah I always knew the difference between LDS temples and churches. Once an LDS temple was built and opened in Bismarck I remembered how a weird alliance of fundies and liberals would constantly picket and demonstrate outside it.

You can get into a Temple for a grand tour as a mere gentile right after it is built, and before it is consecrated a month or so later. So find out where the Saints are building a Temple near you (does Des Moines have one yet?), and put that on your calendar. Under the LDS president who recently died, the LDS were on a mad Temple building spree. Whether the current president Monson has slowed that down, I don't know.

Sad to say, I missed the grand opening of the one in Newport Beach a few years ago. :(

So let's imagine there was a huge blizzard and some people got stranded and the only building nearby was an LDS Temple and they basically had to either take refuge there or freeze to death. Would the Mormons be OK with them entering? Because there's no question all Christian churches would let people inside in such a situation no matter what their religion was.

Oh, they have an anteroom designed for the tourists, which would be available to you BRTD, where there will be displays for you to savor (now featuring Christ as the star attraction with the angel Maroni tucked off to the side, rather than covered wagons, and depictions of Brigham Young standing on the mountaintop overlooking "Zion,"  intoning "[T]his is the place"), and I assume that the anteroom has heating.

Man, was't that sentence above just fabulous?  :P

So is Tweed not a true MorMan yet?

Not until he steps into the buffalo bowl:

()

Okay, I've always thought that was pretty cool.

I tried reading the story in hopes of being amused but my head started to hurt from the pretentiousness.