Talk Elections

http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/05/world/americas/venezuela-argentina-dispute/index.html

''It's time for Latin America to come up with sanctions against this confused power intent on imperialism and colonialism in the 21st century, I think we should take more concrete actions,'' said Ecuador's President Rafael Correa.

He was referring to the refusal of Great Britain to accept 40 UN resolutions calling for dialogue between London and Buenos Aires, which Argentina had accepted but the UK hadn't.

''Why the asymmetry? If a Latin American country had disobeyed a UN resolution, how many sanctions would be leveled against us?'' asked Correa.

''Argentina won't be alone this time if the British Empire decides to attack it militarily,'' said the Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, confirming that his country isn't a major power but ''we have a few weapons, and the will to combat any imperialist agression''.

And does anyone care about the people who live there and what they want?

Yeah, an escalation of diplomatic squabbles has been on the rise for the past 2 or 3 months, I'm sick of it by now (and bored), but considering the 30Th anniversary of the war is coming I guess this won't exactly go away.

And I blame both sides for this escalation. The usual Argie government talk is bad enough, but now we also get from the British government the completely hilarious concept that Argentina may invade the Falklands or sh**t like that. Even going as far as having the PM of friggin Britain calling Argentina "Colonialists" :P

Of course the biggest story in this respect at least around here is the whole thing of Brazil, Chile and Uruguay refusing ships with the Falklands flag from docking in their ports and voicing support for us.

Naturally the jingoistic press here says what a great achievement is this and the amount of support we have in the region, while the jingoistic press up there says how this is a "Blockade" and an act of war. LOL

In reality as far as I know if the ships change the flag of the Falklands and put something else (like the UK flag for instance) they are allowed to dock, which looks like a pretty lame attempt at a "Blockade" ;D

If there were some chance of a real war actually happening then this would be a little more interesting, but since we are not going to invade the Falklands again and the British won't invade us if we don't, this is highly soporific.

Can't those islands just colllapse into sea?

I don't see what Argentina has to gain from drumming up anti-British sentiment, except another embarassing loss in a second Falklands war.

Drumming up nationalism during ongoing economic problems is so common it's a cliche.

Look a little harder, perhaps. It's not going to come to war because Argentina isn't run by a collapsing military dictatorship.

As a Latin American, I would like to express a wholehearted and most sincere support for the British government and the people of the Falklands on this issue.

It most likely won't, but it seems silly that there's been a recent effort to criticize Britain on the issue.  CFK is popular, and the economy is stable. There isn't a need for a nationalist Malvinas movement to be gaining traction and yet it is.

Why should they? Nobody'd care if you want your apartment to be part of Prince Edward Island, either.

What? Really? There should be no Inksing discussion, the islands are British, and until the population decide otherwise, they should stay that way.

Are you comparing the democratic rights of thousands of falkland islanders to "Teddy's Apartment"

Well, I was pushing the argument to its logical conclusion.

Claims of fullsize fishing zones around such colonial remnants (as also St Pierre et Miquelon) should certainly not be allowed... which happens to be one of the Falklands' four sources of income, along with wool, cruise ship fools, and lavish gifts from the British taxpayer (via the garrison). Wonder how Falklanders would think if they payed British taxes, did not have that half of their population that is either soldiers or directly working for them (and mostly British, there for a couple of years, rather than Falklander...) ... and did not have the unhelpful Argentinian attitude and economic policies to contend with. Yeah. That can't be helpin' either.

Argentina has not exactly made them feel welcome over the years, yeah...

Would giving the Argentinians the rights to the sea around the Falklands, while keeping the actual land British be a solution? Or would that just anger everyone?

The thing is I can't see any reason Argentina "deserves" the Falklands, or even the surrounding waters.

Planting 3,000 colonists on an island nowhere near Great Britain doesn't in any way mean Great Britain ''deserves'' the Falklands either.

Argentinians deserve the Falklands the same way we'd reject France controlling Long Island. They don't want the British Empire in their back yard, claiming rights over the waters in that area. They've had enough of empires bossing them around.

The last empire to have "bossed them around" was Spain. And, actually, if you think about it, had that empire not planted a fairly trivial number of colonists halfway accross the world, Argentina, as we know it, would not have existed. In fact, if you think about it again, the ancestors of many, if not most, Argentinians have, probably, spent even less time in that part of the world than the ancestors of most Falklanders: the bulk of that country's population are fairly late arrivals by any standards.

The people of the Falklands deserve as much the right of self-determination as the people of Argentina. And they have chosen to exercise that right by staying a dependent territory of the United Kingdom. There is no reason to believe that the UK would not have let them go free, had they asked for that. Likewise there is no reason for the islands to be Argentinian - no more reason, than for Buenos Aires to be British, that is.

And, BTW, Canada does not seem to object to St. Pierre and Miquelon being French, does it?

Yeah, I never saw an objectively good argument for the Argentinian point of view on the Falklands.

We'll give it back when the American Empire gives Japan the Marianas and Cuba Guantanamo.

Exactly. Neither side has the slightest claim to even morally grey ground. It's all black vs black.

Both of those things should happen.

Can you imagine if Cuba had a city in Florida where they tortured political prisoners?

True.

The obvious solution is for the British to sell the island (for free while buying out the settlers) to the Tehuelche who then would prevent all Argentine access to the Islands and declare them an independent state. Obvious solution really.

I would be more in favor of the indigenous people of Argentina kicking the whites out of Argentina and relegating them to the Falklands.

Kicking indigenous people out of the country and relegating them to some island that has nothing to do with them, sounds pretty whack.

That, of course, would be the ideal solution. But do we really want Western Europe and North America to be full of Argentine refugees? Most Spaniards find them near insufferable as it is...

My solution would be slightly different. Get everyone out of the islands and then nuke the friggin things. Maybe if they are rendered uninhabitable for 100 years we'll get lucky and the issue will be put to rest ;D

Considering the Tehuelches and the Mapuches got almost 10.000 hectares of land given by the Santa Cruz government a few months ago, I doubt they'd be interested in moving to the Falklands :P

And no, the other solution of the whites leaving isn't to my satisfaction either since I have no interest of going either to the islands or to Spain (primarily because they dub every damn movie and it annoys me greatly). And North America? Ugh, no thanks.

Though I would support evicting everyone form the islands, making some kind of concentration camp and then imprision every politician and sports journalist we have. That would be cool too :D

That, of course, is a most excellent point. Perhaps there is some use for prison-camp after all (though I suggest that is what we should use South Georgia for...)

Most Spaniards? Most people, would be more precise :))) Though, I guess, we could do something to accomodate the folks from outside the BA: it's the porteños whom everyone hates :)))

In other news (well, similar news) earlier today CFK called the governing party and the opposition leaders to join her in the Pink house because she was going to give an important speech about the Islands.
Some controversy happened during the day because she refused to divulge what the speech was going to be about.

Well, she just finished giving it and apparently she's declassifying the "Rattenbach report" which as far as I know was a report made by General Rattenbach shortly after the war about all the stuff that went wrong in the conflict.
The report was commissioned by Reynaldo Bignone, the military dictator that succeeded Galtieri. rattenbach was expected to do a report that highlighted some flaws but that could be used as a propaganda tool by the government by saying "yeah, we made mistakes, but we were close" or some sh**t like that.
Rattenbach apparently didn't give a crap and he proceded to write a highly critical report that not only talked about all the mistakes made, but also held the heads of the dictatorship and several military officers as directly responsible for the screw up that was the war and even hints that Galtieri and some others should be tried and could get the death penalty. I think It also calls the war and Insane military adventure.

Of course this wasn't what the military junta had in mind so they basically sealed the report and marginalized Rattenbach. They probably would have killed him or something, but this guy wasn't just "some general", he was the most senior retired general in the country at the time and one of the most prestigious. In fact he wrote this report at the age of 89 years (he died in 1983 at the age of 90).

I heard that some parts of the report were modified by the military way back in 1982-83 to alleviate some of the responsibility for mistakes made by officers.

Anyway, should be an interesting read, but frankly I'm gonna wait till the issue of the Falklands fades a bit since I'm sick of it right now :P

!?!!!
My history classes on the XIX and XX centuries were way different. Either historiography has changed since, or you're missing the big picture here.

I take it in Brazil no one has to explain to anyone else what the American Empire is, or what role the IMF and World Bank play in it.

I have a different definition of "empire" and "bossing around" from the one given in Brazilian schools, I guess :))

British banking and commercial practices left Argentina a de facto dependent with severely compromised sovereignty in the 19th century, and one could argue the same applies for the IMF in the 20th.

And one could argue both to be baloney.

Sure. And be heavily hackish.

The Falklanders.. fancy themselves Britons. Argentina has never controlled the Falklands, and has no legitimate claim. Argentina, now, has decided to go and act in a threatening manner towards the Falklands and, with their history, Britain is wholly justified in acting in sending whatever forces they deem appropriate.

I mean, their claim is basically "they are far, far away, and we are very close so it is ours". Not the most solid reasoning.

My two months or so in Argentina have basically convinced me that the cradle to grave propaganda the argentineans get about the Malvinas means there will never be any resoultion unless they become Argentinean. I'm also more convinced than ever that they shouldn't be :p

Falklands always have, and always will have the Falklands.

that's in the eye of the beholder

You got it all wrong people, clearly Argentina should be given back to the Natives, but all the White Argentinians should be deported to the Falklands (which would thus have enough inhabitants to be granted independence.)

Sure. But, as I do not believe there are any Natives left from those originally around the Buenos Aires, once its current population is transferred to the Malvinas I suggest giving that spot to the current Falkland population, renaming the place Port Stanley. Of course, the new residents of Port Stanley would vote to become British.