Talk Elections

Over the past 7 years, my research has led me from being a Progressive Democrat, to being a Market Socialist. And my views are still evolving.

Not really, I think they just clarified with time. I was a vague leftie populist back when I was a kid, and once I grew up I realized things were a bit more complicated than I thought and moderated somewhat. My positions on a few issues have changed, but my core values remain the same.

I suppose my values changed a lot less than my political-economic leanings over time.

Back in high school I was pretty populist and had something of a Trotskyist bent to my ideas, feeling that the United States was imperialist and just as "evil" in its character, if not more so than the Soviet Union during the Cold War. I was troubled by the impact of greed in American society and loosely centered my convictions on an amalgam of influences from early liberal thinkers and mediocre attempts to gauge the strengths and weaknesses of Soviet democracy. Given a greater emphasis on human rights, I felt a similar social experiment someday would work out quite well.

That outlook was rattled by introductory studies in a number of different fields during my first two years in college. It basically killed the culturally-imperialist part of me that wanted to see many mainstream traditions and religious institutions crushed and cast aside as obsolete and obstructive to the advance of civilization. It also swayed me to embrace social democracy as a "third way" compromise between socialism and capitalism that would convey some of the two systems' boons without such nasty setbacks as under either extreme. Parts of Europe seemed worthy of imitation.

Later, after transferring to a university, more studies revealed flaws in my perspective that drove me to the Nordic Model. I became pretty pragmatic but was too socialistic to fit in well with most Democrats, and too much a liberal to get along well with most self-described Marxists. I was also more diplomatic and collaborative than most folks I met on the left, who often seemed mired in conspiracy theories and directed a lot of anger at certain out-groups. Incidentally, I soon took to avoiding party politics because I valued integrity more than victory and even in my small town saw both major factions using their objectives to justify amoral and often distasteful campaign tactics.

To some extent I am still naive, stubborn, and a bit preachy but try to make an honest effort to listen to others, discover new ideas to synthesize into my worldview, and have become a lot less concerned with getting my way in politics than in trying to amass enough wisdom to write about virtue politics and constitutionalism with some shred of credibility - though I seriously doubt I will ever be very influential, must less an academic heavyweight. My views will keep on evolving with time but for now I am tinkering with how social democracy might transform into market socialism without bringing about a number of unpleasant, very significant side effects. Otherwise, I juggle and intuitively draw from too many schools of thought to succinctly explain how those positions fit together right now. Maybe someday I will try to distill it all into an ideology.

Edit: In regards to international relations I basically got less militarist as an internationalist for awhile, then hopped over to a cosmopolitan outlook. I fancy seeing countries voluntarily organize into regional unions before eventually negotiating a settlement to abolish national armies and establish a federalist union of republics under an overarching constitution and global government. My views on social issues are increasingly influenced by the harm principle and secular humanism.

When I was younger I used to be very socially.. well, not religious conservative, as i have never had faith, but a sort of Tabloid newspaper authoritarian populist right wing, I used to hate everyone on welfare, believe in extremely harsh criminal justice, hild discipline, zero net migration, no European integration, national service,matrons in hospitals, selective education, patriotism etc etc.
Its rather odd that I never sympathized with the BNP. Maybe It's because my dad is a Punjabi immigrant, and I didn't really want to be put on the boat.
Anyway I used to not have any opinion on economic issues, but since I have matured and become very socially libertarian, as well as a huge internationalist and free market capitalist as I research economics.

Hmmm

Neocon----> Paleocon.

I got interested in politics during the 2004 election. Iraq and the Patriot Act were good, gays bad, and Bush was awesome. I would listen to everything FOX told me too. Now I am a Pat Buchananite/Paultard.

Social democrat > socialist; I suppose I still retain the same instincts I've always had, but I'm more open to - and recognise the necessity of - radical solutions these days. I tend to regard my social liberalism more frivolous than I used to and I'm much more cynical in regards to contemporary politics' merits/worthiness. Whether that's just in reaction to current events, I'm not sure.

My views on education have become more clearly defined and recently I developed a bit of a libertarian streak on some privacy issues (SOPA and some of my own government's legislation). Mostly my shift has been from being a language warrior in my early teens to a much more sympathetic position towards moderate forms of Quebec nationalism. First it was simply getting in line with my own party's position on this, but then upon further study I fully adopted them as my own. I'm still a Trudeauvian national unity warrior though- that will probably never change.

Neoconservative (until 2004) -> Left-Libertarian (until 2006) -> American Liberal (until 2009) -> Communitarian (present)


I've hit all four quadrants in my life.

Back from 06-08 I was a very big neoconservative. I was anti-gay, pro-life, pro-war, anti-weed, etc. I even campaigned for McCain/Palin.

Then came Ron Paul, Gary Johnson, Ludwig von Mises, Ayn Rand, Murray Rothbard, Milton Friedman and...well...here I am.

I'm now pro-gay, pro-choice, anti-war, pro-drug legalization. If my views were the same today as they were four years ago, i'd probably be supporting Rick Santorum for President. True story.

In 2004, I was a young (naive) far-left socialist who supported Quebec independence and hated Harper.

In 2006-2007, I became a young (stupid) right-wing conservative hack, who insisted he was centrist, but still was all over Harper, Sarkozy and Mario Dumont. I was vaguely populistic, and had gained weird affection for the xenophobic nationalism of Philippe de Villiers and I didn't think Le Pen was all that bad. I slowly started disliking Harper in early 2008 (as I moved to Canada to witness the damage wrought), by the 2008 election I hated Harper and disliked Dumont.

In 2008-2009, I transitioned into a real centrist, kind-of liberal, but still "socially/fiscally moderate"  I recall being all proud of my moderation and my 0/0 PM score, thinking it indicated real intelligence and real balance.

In 2009, I became my current centre-left progressive liberal self. I dislike conservatism a whole lot, but I'm wary of the left. For some reason, I was into the Canadian Green Party in 2007 and 2008, but I became a Liberal in 2009. I campaigned for and voted Liberal in 2011.

This post is 100% accurate for me. Not only did I campaign for McCain, I also met and supported Rudy Giuliani....I'm still embarrassed by it.

Where do you want me to begin?

Windis is a case study on his own. ;)

I supported Huckabee and then McCain and I even shook John McCain's hand at a rally. It was literally like wearing a baseball glove. -shudders-

Before 2008 I was quite vague politically.  But then I got more and more libertarian.  Then late last year I made a shift to the radical left.

I was conservative by default until the mid 90s.  I don't know if the GOP left me or I left the GOP, but we certainly parted ways.  I guess I just don't hate gays and Mexicans enough.

...but I've always been a fairly live and let live kind of guy, even as a child.

Eh?
From the other thread, added bold.

Hm. Generally speaking, I've probably shifted left a bit.

I used to have a very strong disdain for structural analyses when I was young - I'd find affirmative action and feminist analysis and such things to be utter nonsense. My values came mostly from my dad, I think, and they were sort of traditional conservative working class values.

Then when I got a girlfriend who's parents were foreign my views changed a lot. From my dad I already had a great deal of respect for the working class, but my girlfriend sort of added a layer of feminist and racial analysis to that. Essentially, she had the same type of values as I had been brought up with, but that still wasn't enough. So I sort of realized that social injustice is real and not just a victimization complex.

And before someone asks how anyone could believe the latter, well, I was still very young and I'm also exaggerating the transition a bit. ;)

My volunteer work has also shifted my views on economic injustice. It really opened my eyes to how people have different starting positions that are very hard to overcome. This has made me a lot more firm in my support for things like publicly funded education and such.

Finally, my economics education has tended to undermine my support for free markets quite a bit and made me more sympathetic to state intervention in markets for various reasons.

So, overall a leftward shift. I was very libertarian when I was 12 or so, but I've been maturing ever since. Although, in fairness, I did shift rightwards when I was 19-20 and studied philosophy. Being surrounded by Communists tends to push one to the right.

Haven't paid enough attention to politics for long enough to say accurately. Besides, most of my core values haven't truly shifted.

Having said that, better knowledge of economics saw me shift to the right there, also I stripped some authoritarian positions on some issues (death penalty).

pre 2005    standard left-liberal
2005-2006 right-wing Democrat
2007-      gradually more intelligent left-of-capital

When I was first interested in politics I was socially liberal, extremely permissive (for such a young age) and very much ‘New Labour.’ I backed Labour less and less until 2003 when I drifted away completely, but not because of the Iraq War (which I supported) but because I started to see the ‘falsity’ or it all. I was in essence a ‘Portillista’; a supporter of a Conservative Party that had yet to reform so was homeless under the IDS era. By 2004 I was supporting the party having being impressed enough by Michael Howard and joined in 2005. I supported David Cameron to lead. I have since been a Conservative, though since 2006-2007, I have essentially been a ‘Tartan Tory’; supportive of the SNP domestically. I dislike and distrust Labour.

I have always been socially liberal. As a gay man who accepted my orientation since I was about 13, I was first involved in politics through the ‘Scrap the Section’ anti Section 28 pressure group at 16. I attended a Jesuit Catholic school until I was 18 which in many ways radicalised my views towards social justice but against clericalism. I was then and remain a stout secularist; though since 2010 I have been an atheist-agnostic.

I have worked in the public sector since 2006 and I have actually shifted ‘leftward’ in recent years, but only in terms that I have moved away from holding naïve positions on economics that you tend to hold if you’re not working! I am still centre-right; I believe the debt should be paid down, public spending curbed and I support welfare reform. I also believe in eliminating the taxation of the poorest in society, but some of my more ‘every man for himself’ rhetoric has gone.

Until a couple of years ago I was a much more bog-standard liberal Democrat. My social score probably would have about matched my economic score, and they both would have been closer to the -5 or -6 range than -8 or -2/3 like they are now. Then I discovered, in no particular order, Hiratsuka Raicho, John Ruskin, Yoshiya Nobuko, Oscar Romero, Tadano Makuzu, Mashimo Kouichi, Gustavo Gutierrez, Charles Taylor, and Victor Jara.

Economics: my views have gradually shifted to the right and continue to do so. This doesn't mean that I'm on the verge of becoming a neo-liberal or voting for Andrew Cuomo in a primary but I'm not fond of nationalization anymore and think that full employment as a goal is ridiculous. My views are pretty mainstream among social democrats, that wasn't the case a few years ago when I believed in naive ideas.

Cultural issues: my views have gradually shifted to the left on cultural issues as I ditched more and more of my early adolescent Christianity and my town's values. The older I grew, the more I grew to despise what I termed as archaic notions. My score has shifted from -0.17 to -8. At this point, I don't have the same taboos as everyone else. I'm sure this will slowly change as my disdain for individualism and lax social order has grown.

My outlook and basic analysis has shifted considerably to the left in many ways. But, aha, the direct result has actually been something of a rightwards shift in certain specific practical terms. There's a certain twisted logic of sorts there.

I have always been left wing, since my first political memories around 1993 (I was 7). I wanted a female PM, but I supported the Liberals.. quite the conundrum. As time grew on, I realized my (Liberal) MP was kinda right wing (John Manley) and I stopped liking the federal Liberals, and looked to the NDP. I guess I still liked the idea of a female leader. However, provincially, I was a big supporter of the Liberals. In 2003, when I was 17, I would have voted for them, as I did in the school mock election. Growing up under the Harris regime of the 1990s was hard on students and teachers alike. Of course, I quickly became disillusioned the provincial Liberals. Meanwhile federally, I supported the NDP, but I would've voted Green in the 2004 election (just a few months before my 18th birthday) because the NDP candidate was against gay marriage.

Ever since I've been able to vote, I've voted NDP though. So, my party support hasn't changed since then. However, I've become even more left wing lately. I haven't changed much on social issues, but economically I've abandoned much of my moderate heroism. I'm now experiencing what it's like to be poor and have a family in these conditions. I know what it's like to work hard for very little, while others don't. I'm experiencing all the evils of conservative society, and I don't like it at all. 

I was a pretty libertarian guy until the crash of '07/'08

I had a bunch of friends who were, I thought, on the same page as me. Guys who invested in the stock market and were all about free markets, small gov't, etc.

Then they started going on and on about how the bailouts were needed. How we had to give trillions upon trillions of dollars to the people who had just failed.

That's when I saw that the ''free market'' rhetoric was all B.S. These people who blab on about it aren't interested in liberty or the free market, they're just interested in lining their pockets. They're more than happy with robbing the taxpayer blind to do so.

Greed, aka the profit motive, is the engine that drives capitalism. It's also the engine that drives these same capitalists to seek corrupting influence over our government.

I still believe in the free market. No reason we shouldn't let private enterprise basically run the economy. But I see a much bigger need for government to break up ''too big to fail'' companies and STRONGLY enforce anti-corruption laws, insider trading laws, and all sorts of things like that. If you read the history of the financial crash, it is full of crimes for which no one has been punished.

Since joining the forum, I would say I've moved a smidgen to the left on economic issues, and was more of a left-libertarian in the past. Perhaps most notably, I support universal healthcare now. I haven't really changed that much, though. I think my PM score has moved quite a bit, but then again changing my answer on museums hardly represents a real political change IMO. I've always been perplexed by the frequent (and rapid!) changes some folks on this forum have.

For over thirty years, I found politics really fascinating and important.

Now, I'm beginning to completely loathe politics, and find it more and more useless every day.

Care to give an example or two? Sounds like an interesting mechanism...

Pretty much this.

This.

Anyways, I guess when I was first becoming politically aware, I had an interesting mix of views-

I guess I was the populist/moderate version of Newt Gingrich. Fairly conservative and hawkish but for wanting the super-rich to spread more of their wealth and for the deregulation of nuclear power and human cloning expirements.  

Then, I became more left wing as I learned that the Religious Right were total dicks, it was OK to be gay and that there were too many "special interests" on the right. Eventually, I came to the ephiphany that with the war on terror and the decline of popularity of traditional liberalism, that there was pretty much no hope for economic populism and that progressive efforts were best spent on defending civil rights and liberties and that perhaps through fewer societal barriers, many more people would be "absorbed" into the free market.

Eventually, I learned that far too many people on the top had no real interest in moving over and letting others on to the feed trough. A couple of years later, we ran out of money. At this point, I guess I am what you would consider an Anti-Left Liberal.

I'm pro-choice, anti-super rich, anti-SOPA/PIPA, anti-PATRIOT act, pro-PublicOption, anti-deathpenalty and pro-gay but despise absexual feminism, Eminent Domain, Hate Speech Legislation, gun control, nuclear power regulation, think social security is open for discussion and initially supported Iraq and still think Libya was the right thing to do. I was very gung-ho on Afghanistan and now I don't care.  

Probably easier to list what I haven't changed my mind on. I always strongly opposed amnesty, multiculturalism, relativism, affirmative action, gun bans, and sexual prudery (or at least, thought that people should have a choice to have sex or look at porn or whatever even when I was religious). Of course, I've trended hard to "the right" (alert the SPLC!) since the bail outs and the current joke President assumed office.

For the greater part, I'm as constant as the Sun; however, two events have had rather profound impact. Firstly, 9/11, saw me shift stridently to the right on national security and, secondly, the 'Crash of 2008', saw me move leftwards on economics and become more critical of neoliberalism

I started out as a Fiscal Liberal Social Conservative Pro-Death Penalty Pro-Life then moved towards a Democratic Socialist/Social Democratic economic point of view & Moderate to liberal view on Social issues & have always been a Democrat.

This also applies to me perfectly, albeit these changes were a couple years or so before I joined the forum.

My views have been consistent for many many years now, and my only major changes have been drifting slightly leftward on most issues whenever I become more informed on them. Things like the minimum wage, gun control laws, or environmental safety, that I was formerly ambivalent on, I became more informed on and drifted leftward. But these things are not any sort of major change. I viewed myself as a Social Democrat several years ago, and I view myself as more of an out-and-out Socialist now. Though, that's not a very big leap.

My biggest changes have mainly just been my approach to issues and how much I know about them. There's been no seismic shifts. I've also become much less tolerant of libertarian absolutes on social issues, and I suppose I've become a smidge more authoritarian in general.

I've also changed a lot in how I view democracy and our system of government, but such things don't impact my overall philosophy. In short, I haven't changed much.


As have I!

I haven't really changed my views so much as I've developed clearer, more defined opinions. I've always been somewhat left of centre.

Quasi-fascism is pretty fun, huh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcXRlWotPTk

I used to a radical Communist, and then a committed right-wing Nationalist and then a far left Democrat and then a far right Republican and now I look back and laugh at it all as a moderate with no true party to call home.  I'm only Democrat because they allow moderates in their party still.

Ah so you're calling Mr. Dees then?

Socialism > Socialdemocracy > Becoming a socialist again

I've pretty consistently become more libertarian over time, and increasingly disillusioned with mainstream politicians.

I've drifted somewhat upward and to the left on the PM over the years after beginning as a pretty generic conservative. The main factors that have influenced my drifting were my Mom going on strike when I was in high school and a re-evaluation of my beliefs and worldview that took place my sophomore year of college. The only two major issues I've changed my mind on have been the death penalty and legalized gambling. I was a huge supporter of legalized gambling when I was younger, but later came to realize that legalizing it causes more harm in terms of broken families than good it does in development. Ironically, the two things that convinced me it was a bad idea was a friend I respect a lot that wanted it legal and a newspaper editorial in favor of it.

My view of the death penalty changed much more slowly. It was always an issue that perplexed me because the Church teaches against it and used to practice it so I dismissed the teachings against it as going soft and conforming to the post-modern values of the age. I was confronted on this a couple times and sort of threw my hands into the air and called myself "neutral" for a while on the issue. But the eventual "winner" position was that the death penalty is accpetable only when it is necessary to protect others from harm rather than an instrument of punishment, which ironed out the contradiction in my thinking as well as it could be. I also had an argument with another friend over abortion in the case of rape where I asked him if it would be okay for the woman to kill the rapist out of revenge and he told me it would be fine and is called capital punishment. That unnerved me to where I began to see capital punishment is less about public safety and more about revenge. I slowly came to realize that my belief that capital punishment is okay only when necessary for public safety meant never as it's done in sentencing in the US.

To best examine how my views have changed, you should look at candidates I've supported in the past:

2008 Democratic primaries: Hillary Clinton
2008 general election: John McCain/Sarah Palin
2012 Republican primaries (before people actually started campaigning): Sarah Palin, Mitt Romney, Gary Johnson, Ron Paul, Mike Pence, Mitch Daniels
2012 Republican primaries (after people actually started campaigning): Herman Cain, Buddy Roemer, Rick Perry, Newt Gingrich, Rick Santorum, and currently Buddy Roemer again
2012 Libertarian primaries: Gary Johnson

What is objectionable about "multiculturalism" and some sort of path to citizenship?

I used to be pretty much a lock-and-step republican. My views weren't very developed. I was extremely socially far-right, and fiscally moderate (w/ a slight republican tilt).

3 years later, 2012, I'm much more conservative on economics, and more states' rights. I started to see the hypocrisies of both parties, and used it to better my views. Still very socially conservative but not on flag burning or the FCC anymore.

Several reasons:

1. High levels of diversity - religious, racial, whatever - tend to erode social trust (see Robert Putnam's work on this). Although even before I read that it was pretty self evident to me just looking at the real world: look how Scandinavian nations or Japan function. Then look at the attitudes of more diverse areas. People unfortunately tend to only trust "their own kind," particularly in anglo-saxon societies. It's not an insurmountable problem, there are some societies like Singapore for example that are highly diverse yet have high levels of trust in institutions and efficiency. But those tend to not be liberal democracies and they seem to be the minority. I just don't have a very rosy view of human nature in general. Again, one of the reasons I've never really identifies as a liberal or "progressive" or whatever.

2. Not every (sub)culture is compatible with one another or wants to co-exist. I don't mean that in a veiled anti-muslim way either, or at least I'm not singling out muslims when there are plenty of Christians that want to criminalize who I am or worse for example... Having a functioning society means that there has to be some degree of assimilation, conformity, what have you. I think we've failed at that.

3. Let me put it this way: Today people are generally horrified by the IMMENSE pressure we put on southern and eastern Europeans to basically become as much as possible like the WASP majority. We made them drop their names, customs, food, religion, etc. But how successfully do you think Italians, Greeks, Poles, Russians, etc. would have assimilated into society if we had more modern policies in place? Like bilingual education, ballots, housing forms, mandated recognition of their customs/holidays, government recognition of them as separate ethnicities, etc..? They wouldn't have assimilated as fast if ever. Doubtful they'd be perceived as white eventually either. And obviously a lot of people in those groups are as dark if not darker looking than "hispanics."

I would note that the Scots-Irish and Irish-Irish faced the same sort of treatment from WASPs (hell, it's still considered acceptable in 'polite' society, such as this site, to talk about the stupid lazy ignorant redneck hillbillies in the former case).  This despite their coming from variations on the same culture as WASPs, and looking pretty much the same too.  The fear and hatred of the 'other' is deeply ingrained and oftentimes highly irrational even by the standards of bigotry.

Back in 2008, I was much more liberal; when I first registered here, both of my PM scores were negative. Back then I watched a ton of MSNBC...now, I don't really watch anything on TV! Go figure...

1. The Japan comparison is apt (multiculturalism will never work there for obvious reasons but Japan is a basket case in general anyway) but Muslims in Europe are actually integrating at a fairly rapid clip and the public is as generally supportive of immigration as we are:
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2. Muslims and Christians can co-exist, the problem is an economic one. Many Muslims are essentially trapped in ghettos where they can't find economic opportunities which leads to unnecessarily high amounts of tension. The riots in France didn't occur because of Islamist extremism, they occurred because the banileue had excessive unemployment and police profiling. French Muslims are actually as secular as American Christians.
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Islam is a very unifying religion that has a stronger identity for obvious reasons but there are clear examples that assimilation is happening and at a rapid rate. It's only been a few decades since Islamic immigration started and already it's becoming secular/progressive and opportunities are opening up.

In my view, multiculturalism isn't about preventing assimilation. It's about promoting a shared assimilation of sorts; instead of one group just adopting new customs and ideals as quickly as possible there is a sharing process that benefits both nations. I don't see how bilingualism, new architecture and different prevalent religious identities are harmful as long as they are properly integrated into society. I guess you could say that I support multiculturalism because I view it as a way of harmonizing society as opposed to assimilating through blatant racist societal pressures. Assimilation should come slower, be a two-way street and should accommodate minority groups to an extent. Minority groups retaining some of their identity is a strength, not a weakness.

I've generally been moderately left-of-center with a huge green streak for most of my life.  In general, there haven't been that many big-ticket issues where I've done a 180.  Probably the only two exceptions are free trade (was against it when younger, now in favor) and abortion (again, against when younger but now pro-choice).  In general I've drifted in a less and less populist direction over time, to a view that could best be summed up as "pro-science" and/or "pro-knowledge" but it's gone back and forth.  I was arguably at my most conservative when I was in (an incredibly liberal) college, where the lack of any surrounding conservative viewpoints plus a contrarian streak led me to start reading lots of David Brooks and talk about moderation all the time.  But since then being in the real world has made me see what folly that was, and I've probably drifted leftward on both axes since then.  Still a pragmatist at heart though.

So, basically, coming off from this...I started out as a moderate liberal who got angry when Obama won the Dem nomination in '08. Then McCain picked Palin as his veep and I "saw the light", becoming pretty much a generic conservative. Somewhere down the line, I adopted a mild libertarian bent that has slowly become more and more pronounced. As of right now, I've had another "seeing the light" kind of experience and have left the outright conservative crowd for good. Libertarian.

The only significant change I've really had in my view was from a more hawkish view of foreign policy to a pragmatic dove (dove with claws). I dutifully voted for McShame only because of Palin but really wanted to vote for Baldwin. My economic views average always been in favor of Austrian Free Market Economics (as touted by Ron Paul). Socially I've consistently been pro-life, pro-traditional marriage/family, anti-gambling. Lately after further reading of both the Bible and the Constituition I've adopted a more states rights approach to social matters while advocating social conservatism. As for drugs, I've also adopted a states rights position while still promote conservative views on drugs.

I started out as a socially conservative Democrat. Dabbled around with socialism for awhile, then moved onto libertarianism, and finally settled on American Liberalism. I've become more moderate (at least in outward appearance) on social issues, as well as a lot more pragmatic in the general sense of the word. Four years ago I'd never have voted for Hillary Clinton because she voted to go to war with Iraq...admittedly that doesn't even begin to register on my criteria for voting in favor of someone these days.

I've moved right on gun control and affirmative action, as well as on immigration and multiculturalism while I've moved left on every single economic question.

You can't claim to be "pro-family" if you support anti-family economic policy.

Are you the Maine GOP platform?