Talk Elections

So many demands (http://www.nationalreview.com/campaign-spot/293039/black-clergy-group-demand-romney-renounce-mormonism), so little time.  

Hey guys, the Utah primary has not occurred yet. At least let Mittens secure the delegates there first, before he becomes an Episcopalian (the religion his wife was raised in I think). Is that OK with you?

Yes, Mitt Romney needs Christ.

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Complete ignorance of the Mormon faith runs rampant amongst the closed minded, including amongst closed minded preachers.

Considering the racist origins of Mormonism, for blacks to be opposed to Mormonism is hardly closed-minded, but rather an appreciation of history.  For those who hope to end the solid black voting block for the Democrats, having Romney as the standard-bearer of the Republicans is not going to do anything to advance that.

Perhaps Santorum should renounce Catholicism because the Catholics tortured and burned at the stake those they considered to be "heretics" centuries ago.

Catholicism never claimed to have direct divine revelation that blacks would never be admitted to the priesthood.  Yes Mormonism later had a later revelation to reverse that policy (tho it took until 1978!) but like Romney himself, the Mormon church's changes in policy over the years have appeared to be based more upon expediency than any other factor.  Unlike Romney, the Mormon church has claimed its policies are divinely inspired.

As a liberal I have no problem with Mormonism even if it seems cranky and heretical to me. I have a problem with religion in politics when people shamelessly exploit it in an 'Believe it or burn' mode on politics.

Anyone who votes for President Obama because Mitt Romney is a Mormon or because Rick Santorum is a Catholic votes for the President for the wrong reasons. We need to ask what is good for America instead of what is comfortable for our view of the world. Now if someone votes for President Obama because either Mitt Romney or Rick Santorum offers no viable solutions, then one has a valid cause for voting for the President.

Of course I would never vote for a $cientologist (a fundamentally dishonest world-view), let alone a Satanist.

lol

I'll agree with that pb  And the LDS Church has tried these past three decades to overcome its shameful past on this issue, for which I commend it..  However, while his faith is not why I do not like Romney, the fact is it will be a significant factor for some groups, and for Blacks in general, and Black evangelicals in particular, the history of the LDS church with regard to "the children of Cain" will be a major stumbling point.

So if a Mormon were a nominee and you believed they were the best person and the most qualified to be President, you would vote for them even though you believed their faith to be cranky and heretical?

I demand that Romney renounce his American citizenship instead.

The Mormons only lifted the ban in 1978.

Rev. O’Neal Dozier and I rarely agree on much, but I think it should send a clear message that when I, a pro-abortion, pro-forced gay marriage atheist, and Rev. Dozier can come together on an issue like this, our cause is probably just and right.

Not really.  The "enemy of my enemy is my friend" meme rarely works well in real life.

The cause is never just and right when those throwing the stones are doing so as a result of gross misunderstanding and complete ignorance. 

You do realize that an election is all about politics and rarely about justice, don't you?

And if you don't realize that, why haven't you been full of outrage over the deceptive attack ads that Restore Mitt's Future puts out?

Is BRTD behind these demands?

Seriously though, this is ridiculous. Enough with the hate.


I <33333 Mormons. :)

No, they just authorized slavery for for a few centuries (thank you Alexander VI).  It was revoked as well, in 1993.  :P

Well, atleast they decided to coinicide their revocation with the Emancipation Proclamation plus 130 years.

It is never, ever appropriate for a Christian to demand that another Christian renounce his faith.  Mormons have not made demands that others renounce their faith.

Let me make this clear.  Mitt Romney is not going to renounce his faith, now not, not ever, just because some ill informed, radical evangelical preacher makes some stupid, ridiculous demand.

Forget it. 

The best thing Romney can do is to completely ignore this postulating, presumptuous, pompous preacher.

Mormons are Christians?

Careful! Saying anything about Mormonism short of showering the "religion" with praise is not allowed on this forum!

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?  I'd say so.

If he thought it would help win the nomination, I have no doubt that he would. And he would would insist that he has always been severely anti-Mormon too.

That may be what they call themselves. Doesn't make them Christian.

I could found a church and call it the Church of Christ - would that make it so?

All depends on how are we going to define "Christianity".

Mormons are monotheists. They do believe in Jesus Christ as the literal firstborn Son of God and Messiah, etc.

They do reject things like Holy Trinity, but some Christian groups does as well.

A suitable politician must show competence if an incumbent; a series of offices means nothing if one is a pathological liar, contradicts himself frequently,  has a history of corruption, or shows despotic tendencies, or otherwise shows himself unfit for the office  I wouldn't vote for any politician who puts the promotion of his religious views over all other matters of public policy. 

I'm not sure that anyone can quite say what makes the "better person" and that anything in particular makes one more qualified. A record of solid achievements for an incumbents Could I vote for Harry Reid? Sure. He is a Mormon. Character trumps creed, and someone who touts his creed had better live up to the benign parts of that creed.

For most of us it comes down to ideological concord with us -- right?

So does Islam FWIW.

Believe in the Holy Trinity - you're Christian. Reject it, and you're not.

Mormons may believe they are Christian, but insofar as they reject the Trinity they are just one of many splinter groups that have done the same thing over the ages.

Jews accept the ethical tenets of Christianity but reject Jesus as irrelevant or heretical -- let alone any compartmentalization of God in any Trinity. They are unambiguous monotheists.  But can I vote for a Jew? Sure. I have done so many times.

Muslims accept the validity of the Ministry of Jesus and that He was born of a virgin. But Jesus to them was definitely not the Son of God and did not die on the Cross. To Muslims Jesus is one of the greatest Prophets of God... but like Jews, Muslims are strict monotheists. I have never had a chance to vote for a Muslim. Maybe if I lived in Dearborn, Michigan...

Mormonism is a Christian heresy for adding the Book of Mormon to its canon. But that said, Christianity is a Jewish heresy and Islam is a Christian heresy.

  

Oh I agree that for Romney to change from being a Mormon to be a more traditional Christian for political reasons would be wrong both ethically and politically.  If he were a better candidate, it wouldn't matter that there are blocks of voters who won't vote for him for that reason, but he's not.  His appeal is mainly to groups that can be expected to vote Republican in the general election no matter who the nominee is, and he has not shown much ability this cycle to go beyond that core support.  He's the richer candidate, and that's been the secret to his success so far, but he won't have a financial advantage against Obama.

But since you ignored my question other than to replace my descriptive name of its only purpose with its official name, let me repeat it: Why haven't you been full of outrage over the deceptive attack ads that Restore Mitt's Future puts out?

Islam is a Christian-Jewish heresy, if you want to go that way.

And if you really want to follow that line of reasoning, then every Christian group or movement is a heresy, except of an orginal group.

So do some other churches, Unitarians, for example.  Also, many Protestant denominations are wishy-washy on it.

Is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea a democracy?

No, but Mormons are.

It can easily be argued that Mormons are not Trinitarians or "orthodox," with a small "o."  They are closer to it than most non-Trinitarian Christian groups.

Jan Huss and Martin Luther both sought not so much to innovate as schismatics but instead to purify the Catholic Church of its then-pervasive corruption. The dirty little secret was that almost eve4rything about medieval Europe was terribly corrupt, including the Catholic Church which had to make peace with the horrible economic and political order characteristic of feudalism.  The Anglican Church originated to justify the deeds of the horrible Henry VIII. 

And Unitarians aren't Christian either. That was easy.

Which is why they denied things like confession, the Lord's supper, tore books out of the bible, etc.

Seems like pure innovation to me.

Luther wanted to get married to this hot chick who he liked, was a priest so he came up with this new idea called Lutheranism that, oddly enough, permitted him to get married to hot chick that he liked.

FRIENDLY MOD WARNING: please keep discussion related to the thread topic specifically. If you want to debate whether Mormonism is Christian or not, please do so on the religion and philosophy board.

Mormonism fails the Nicene Creed test. Examples:


Mormons believe God was once a man on a planet like our own, and thus not "maker of all that is seen and unseen".


This is most certainly not in accordance with the Mormon view of the Trinity, and they most certainly don't believe Jesus is the only Son of God, they basically believe Jesus and Satan are brothers.


Definitely doesn't jive with the whole becoming gods and ruling your own planet thing.

Might as well move this whole topic there.

I concur.

Luther didn't meet Katharina von Bora until 1523, two years after the Diet of Worms. If you want a clearer example of somebody who had entirely concupiscent reasons for starting a Protestant denomination, there's a great big honking example right at the start of my own church. A lot of Anglican theology is actually about the works of God in bringing good out of evil, because we're entirely aware of how sordid our roots are.

Well in my defense Bacon King, it was not meant to be a thread about religion, but rather about politics. It just "evolved."  :P

Nobody in this campaign has been a bigger victim of deceptive attack ads and deceptive, false, and vicious attacks and commentary than Mitt Romney, and no faith has been so viciously attacked as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints of which Romney is a member.  

Take a look at the vicious diatribes in this thread for example.  This thread has deteriorated into nothing more than ignorance, intolerance, and Mormon bashing.

Let them play their little game.  Ultimately, it will get them nowhere, let me assure you.

How are Mormons a democracy?

Wait, you were serious?

Sarah Palin's books probably mention Jesus 3000 times, but I don't think Going Rogue should be added to the New Testament.

I find it ridiculous how easily my faith (Mormonism) is made fun of. I like Muslims, so I won't use them as a "would you make fun of these guys" analogy, but a good comparison could be made with say, the Lutherans or the Catholics. Would anyone make fun of them as much as Mormons are mocked? I think not.

As for this specific situation, I think he's just expressing racial/evangelical animus towards Romney, and this isn't a serious demand.

I'm with PioneerProgress on the anti-Mormon sentiment being unjustified and kind of bizarre.


It seems to me that any definition of "Christian" that excludes the Arians is by definition too narrow. Citing the Nicene Creed as a test of Christianity also seems strange; it's not as though the Nicene Creed was created with Christianity.

The Nicene Creed is a text of orthodoxy. Churches that don't or can't subscribe to it can be Christian anthropologically, culturally, or in general feel and flavor and worldview (all of which Mormonism is) but wouldn't be recognized as theologically Christian by most others.

Most mockery of Lutherans and Catholics comes these days from Lutherans and Catholics. It's rule number one of humor involving group identity.