Talk Elections

General Politics => International General Discussion => Topic started by: 2952-0-0 on March 22, 2012, 01:51:51 AM



Title: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: 2952-0-0 on March 22, 2012, 01:51:51 AM
Looks like an old school coup has happened in Mali. The "Comité National pour le Redressement de la Démocratie et la Restauration de l'Etat" has taken over the TV station, attacked the presidential palace, and occupied Bamako. A group of men in uniforms have spoken on TV (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihsjeJbLFRE), accusing the government of not providing enough help to fight the Tuareg revolt. The butterflies from the Tunisian fruit vendor's suicide are spreading far and wide.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on March 22, 2012, 04:38:15 AM
Gosh...

Is the current "president" a dictator himself anyways ?


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Hash on March 22, 2012, 07:24:47 AM
Gosh...

Is the current "president" a dictator himself anyways ?

Mali has been blessed by pretty decent, democratic but imperfect and somewhat corrupt/useless leaders who are excellent by West African standards since 1992. It has a 'free' rating from Freedom House (2 political liberties, 3 civil liberties) and a 'flawed democracy' (6.36) index from the Economist (which is a ranking superior to that of Ghana, Ukraine, the Philippines or Venezuela).

I doubt anything good can come out of this.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Gustaf on March 22, 2012, 09:27:03 AM
Gosh...

Is the current "president" a dictator himself anyways ?

Mali has been blessed by pretty decent, democratic but imperfect and somewhat corrupt/useless leaders who are excellent by West African standards since 1992. It has a 'free' rating from Freedom House (2 political liberties, 3 civil liberties) and a 'flawed democracy' (6.36) index from the Economist (which is a ranking superior to that of Ghana, Ukraine, the Philippines or Venezuela).

I doubt anything good can come out of this.

Yeah, from what I've heard Mali is supposed to be one of the freest and most democratic nations in Africa: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Toumani_Tour%C3%A9 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Toumani_Tour%C3%A9)


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on March 22, 2012, 12:13:55 PM
Oh, well, then that's worrisome indeed.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Atlas Has Shrugged on March 22, 2012, 08:35:54 PM
What happened to the President? Is he locked up the the guy from Niger or his he resisting.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: politicus on March 22, 2012, 08:46:25 PM
A consequence of the fall of Qaddafi in Libya. Tuareg's who where serving as mercenaries in Libya returning to resume their rebellion against the Blacks and the military not liking the Presidents "soft" approach to fighting them. So expect lots of massacres on Tuareg's, torture, mass rape, killing of livestock etc. now and Tuareg retaliation on "black" villages. Tragic.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Atlas Has Shrugged on March 23, 2012, 12:20:29 PM
A consequence of the fall of Qaddafi in Libya. Tuareg's who where serving as mercenaries in Libya returning to resume their rebellion against the Blacks and the military not liking the Presidents "soft" approach to fighting them. So expect lots of massacres on Tuareg's, torture, mass rape, killing of livestock etc. now and Tuareg retaliation on "black" villages. Tragic.
Indeed. I have a feeling that a lot of ex Qadaffi era military leaders will come down from Libya and arm the Tuaregs as well.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Bacon King on March 23, 2012, 03:52:25 PM
Yeah Samake still has a better chance of becoming the first Mormon head of state then Mitt Romney.

Okay, I had to look this up, and per Wikipedia:

Samake and his family are the only members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) in Mali.

Haha, oh wow.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: JonBidinger on March 23, 2012, 06:32:07 PM
There are reports that Malian army forces are fleeing en masse in the face of renewed Tuareg advances, taking advantage of the political chaos in the country. Also, the elite parachute regiment loyal to the legit President and believed to be hiding him are rumored to be moving into a position for a counter-coup.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: MASHED POTATOES. VOTE! on March 23, 2012, 06:43:58 PM
Yeah Samake still has a better chance of becoming the first Mormon head of state then Mitt Romney.

Okay, I had to look this up, and per Wikipedia:

Samake and his family are the only members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) in Mali.

Haha, oh wow.

This. Is. Priceless.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Zioneer on March 24, 2012, 01:01:15 PM
Heh, as a Mormon, Yeah Samake's possible victory in Mali (once this coup business is sorted out) makes me laugh every single time. Nope, the white, uncharismatic, businessman, conservative Mormon in the United States won't be leader of a country, but the black, raised in poverty, Peace Corp, innovative Mormon in Mali will be leader of a country. It's just so unexpected.

I'm curious about how the possible first Mormon president of a country will combat the Tuaregs; will he use the same kind of political/rhetorical/military tactics as his predecessor, or will he do something completely out of the box and interesting?

Regarding the actual rebellion; it looks like the Tuaregs might be more justified in leaving Mali than the justification of the Malians for keeping them in the nation. Northern Mali seems to be underdeveloped and neglected, so if the Tuaregs want to split off and create their own nation, I think that's okay.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Insula Dei on March 25, 2012, 09:39:17 AM
Doesn't really look like our new Military Junta actually has anything under control. Quite junior officers, too, I understand.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: ingemann on March 25, 2012, 10:53:57 AM
Heh, as a Mormon, Yeah Samake's possible victory in Mali (once this coup business is sorted out) makes me laugh every single time. Nope, the white, uncharismatic, businessman, conservative Mormon in the United States won't be leader of a country, but the black, raised in poverty, Peace Corp, innovative Mormon in Mali will be leader of a country. It's just so unexpected.

I'm curious about how the possible first Mormon president of a country will combat the Tuaregs; will he use the same kind of political/rhetorical/military tactics as his predecessor, or will he do something completely out of the box and interesting?

Regarding the actual rebellion; it looks like the Tuaregs might be more justified in leaving Mali than the justification of the Malians for keeping them in the nation. Northern Mali seems to be underdeveloped and neglected, so if the Tuaregs want to split off and create their own nation, I think that's okay.

I think this map of population density explain why the north is less developed.

()


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: JonBidinger on April 01, 2012, 06:17:39 AM
Al Jazeera (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2012/04/20124181943166936.html) is reporting that all major cities in the north have now fallen to the rebels, with Timbuktu having been captured today.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: minionofmidas on April 01, 2012, 06:29:41 AM
Nice video.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: danny on April 01, 2012, 10:44:27 AM
Considering the fact that the coup was supposedly to better fight the rebels, it seems like a pretty big failure so far.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on April 01, 2012, 02:34:31 PM
Considering the fact that the coup was supposedly to better fight the rebels, it seems like a pretty big failure so far.

Yes and no.  The troops were tired of being treated like expendables used to keep the Azawad part of Mali.  I hope folks haven't yet gone out ad bought new maps with South Sudan on it.  While the coup leaders have said they are restoring the constitution, they (or a restored civilian government) may decide to give the the rebels their independence rather than fight a war to retake what has been lost.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on April 01, 2012, 03:37:23 PM
Considering the fact that the coup was supposedly to better fight the rebels, it seems like a pretty big failure so far.

Yes and no.  The troops were tired of being treated like expendables used to keep the Azawad part of Mali.  I hope folks haven't yet gone out ad bought new maps with South Sudan on it.  While the coup leaders have said they are restoring the constitution, they (or a restored civilian government) may decide to give the the rebels their independence rather than fight a war to retake what has been lost.

I guess that would be the best solution, but considering the tendency of rulers to systematically take the wrong decision when it comes to a region asking for independence, I wouldn't bet on that.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: minionofmidas on April 01, 2012, 03:53:43 PM
Also, another new country so soon after South Sudan? That would confirm all the fears of African heads of states and the West about redrawing African boundaries being a pandora's box best left unopened.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Nhoj on April 01, 2012, 03:55:48 PM
Considering the fact that the coup was supposedly to better fight the rebels, it seems like a pretty big failure so far.

Yes and no.  The troops were tired of being treated like expendables used to keep the Azawad part of Mali.  I hope folks haven't yet gone out ad bought new maps with South Sudan on it.  While the coup leaders have said they are restoring the constitution, they (or a restored civilian government) may decide to give the the rebels their independence rather than fight a war to retake what has been lost.
Timbuktu and Gao aren't likely to be close to majority Tuareg these days. So unless the rebel movement is more pan regional rather than ethnic. I don't see how independence is going to work out well.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Zioneer on April 01, 2012, 04:33:55 PM
Considering the fact that the coup was supposedly to better fight the rebels, it seems like a pretty big failure so far.

Yes and no.  The troops were tired of being treated like expendables used to keep the Azawad part of Mali.  I hope folks haven't yet gone out ad bought new maps with South Sudan on it.  While the coup leaders have said they are restoring the constitution, they (or a restored civilian government) may decide to give the the rebels their independence rather than fight a war to retake what has been lost.
Timbuktu and Gao aren't likely to be close to majority Tuareg these days. So unless the rebel movement is more pan regional rather than ethnic. I don't see how independence is going to work out well.

According to this long but well-researched and excellent article (http://thinkafricapress.com/mali/causes-uprising-northern-mali-tuareg), it seems the Azawadis have thought of that, and the younger generation are trying to rebrand the independence movement as a pan-ethnic regional movement. The article mentions Arabs and Black Africans joining the rebel army as well.

So I think they're looking at ethnic problems and trying to beat them before independence.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Tetro Kornbluth on April 01, 2012, 05:40:04 PM
Quote
Through December and early January, the tone of the exchanges on various Tuareg chat forums was expectant, frustrated, even desultory at times.

LOL. How many Tuaregs have internet access, really (and of those that do, what is their geographical distribution like)? Serious question btw.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Gustaf on April 01, 2012, 05:45:09 PM
Quote
Through December and early January, the tone of the exchanges on various Tuareg chat forums was expectant, frustrated, even desultory at times.

LOL. How many Tuaregs have internet access, really (and of those that do, what is their geographical distribution like)? Serious question btw.

How representative would they be of Tuaregs in general is what I would like to know. Then again, I think more people are on the internet than one would expect.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Tetro Kornbluth on April 01, 2012, 05:51:47 PM
Quote
Through December and early January, the tone of the exchanges on various Tuareg chat forums was expectant, frustrated, even desultory at times.

LOL. How many Tuaregs have internet access, really (and of those that do, what is their geographical distribution like)? Serious question btw.

How representative would they be of Tuaregs in general is what I would like to know. Then again, I think more people are on the internet than one would expect.

No doubt. As for that first question, I think that was sort of covered by the geographical distribution bit.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: ○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└ on April 01, 2012, 05:52:49 PM
Yeah Samake still has a better chance of becoming the first Mormon head of state then Mitt Romney.

After the Mormon brothers win their elections, they will move the national capitals to Timbuktu and Kalamazoo, and sign the Dr. Seuss Mormon brotherhood agreement.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on April 02, 2012, 12:29:47 AM
Yeah Samake still has a better chance of becoming the first Mormon head of state then Mitt Romney.

After the Mormon brothers win their elections, they will move the national capitals to Timbuktu and Kalamazoo, and sign the Dr. Seuss Mormon brotherhood agreement.

WHOOOOOOOOOOO!  WHOOOOOOOOOOO!
wheeeeeeeeeeeeee!  wheeeeeeeeeeeeee!

That is one of my favorite children's book from my childhood you are referencing there and The Train to Timbuctoo had absolutely nothing to do with Dr. Seuss as inimitable Margaret Wise Brown wrote it.

CLACKETY-CLACK!  CLACKETY-CLACK!
clickety-click! clickety-click!

Not even the same publisher, as Dr. Seuss was published by Random House and this classic gem was a Little Golden Book.

POCKETA-POCKETA-POCKETA-POCKETA
picketa-picketa-pcketa-picketa

Anyway, now that I've cleared that up, Goodnight jfern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodnight_Moon)!

WHOOOOOOOO! WHOOOOOOOOO!
wheeeeeeeeee! wheeeeeeeeeee!


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: lowtech redneck on April 02, 2012, 04:30:48 PM

I think this map of population density explain why the north is less developed.

()

That and the fact that its a landlocked desert.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Tetro Kornbluth on April 02, 2012, 05:51:24 PM
Also, another new country so soon after South Sudan? That would confirm all the fears of African heads of states and the West about redrawing African boundaries being a pandora's box best left unopened.

Worth noting that the country at stake in both cases straddled the Sub-Saharan "Black Africa"/North Africa-Sahara-divide.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on April 02, 2012, 08:53:40 PM
Also, another new country so soon after South Sudan? That would confirm all the fears of African heads of states and the West about redrawing African boundaries being a pandora's box best left unopened.

Worth noting that the country at stake in both cases straddled the Sub-Saharan "Black Africa"/North Africa-Sahara-divide.

Also worth noting that Mali was formerly known as French Soudan.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: minionofmidas on April 03, 2012, 04:31:24 AM
Well, Sudan is really just the historical name of what later came to be known as the Sahel - the zone of somewhat marginal agriculture between the desert and the forest, with closer links across the desert than across the forest, and Muslim as a result. The real divide-bridging monstrosities are Cote d'Ivoire, Ghana, Nigeria, not Mali, Tchad and Niger.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: politicus on April 03, 2012, 06:44:16 AM
Well, Sudan is really just the historical name of what later came to be known as the Sahel - the zone of somewhat marginal agriculture between the desert and the forest, with closer links across the desert than across the forest, and Muslim as a result. The real divide-bridging monstrosities are Cote d'Ivoire, Ghana, Nigeria, not Mali, Tchad and Niger.
I disagree. The divide in those countries is religious. Black Africans with fairly similar peasant cultures on each side. The divide between (generally) more light skinned nomadic/semi-normadic pastoralists and sedentary Blacks in the Sahel is more important. Race matters in Africa and the agriculturaist/pastoralist divide is always a source of confict.

That said Nigeria is obviousy a monstrosity. Should be divided into 3 countries - Hausa/Fulani, Yoruba, Igbo dominated respectively.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: minionofmidas on April 03, 2012, 08:09:57 AM
Obviously the other divide exists as well, and obviously the forest belt has much diminished and had roads and settlement corridors carved through at European orders a century ago, but disagreeing with me is, in this case, simply identical to admitting you don't know the first thing about the history of the area. :)


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Hash on April 03, 2012, 08:27:46 AM
Well, Sudan is really just the historical name of what later came to be known as the Sahel - the zone of somewhat marginal agriculture between the desert and the forest, with closer links across the desert than across the forest, and Muslim as a result. The real divide-bridging monstrosities are Cote d'Ivoire, Ghana, Nigeria, not Mali, Tchad and Niger.
I disagree. The divide in those countries is religious. Black Africans with fairly similar peasant cultures on each side. The divide between (generally) more light skinned nomadic/semi-normadic pastoralists and sedentary Blacks in the Sahel is more important. Race matters in Africa and the agriculturaist/pastoralist divide is always a source of confict.

That said Nigeria is obviousy a monstrosity. Should be divided into 3 countries - Hausa/Fulani, Yoruba, Igbo dominated respectively.

Cote-d'Ivoire's divide, at least is more than religious. The north/savanna is mainly reliant on herding, cotton and low-income crops; while the south/forest is driven by coffee and cacoa. And it isn't like there isn't any population mobility: something like 30% of Ivorians, especially in the north, immigrated from Burkina Faso. Imo, just because the divide might in good part be religious doesn't make a country any less monstrously divided or important.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: politicus on April 03, 2012, 09:01:34 AM
Obviously the other divide exists as well, and obviously the forest belt has much diminished and had roads and settlement corridors carved through at European orders a century ago, but disagreeing with me is, in this case, simply identical to admitting you don't know the first thing about the history of the area.

The fault line running through Sudan andTchad around the twelfth parallel continuing across Niger/Mali and dividing Moslem, "Arab" north and non-Moslem African south is the major dividing line in Africa and has caused numerous conflicts. The states divided by this are clearly the most "monstrous" on the Continent.
Of course there is a north/south divide in Ivory Coast and Ghana, but the differences are definitely smaller.



Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: minionofmidas on April 03, 2012, 09:06:39 AM
The Touareg aren't Arabic in the slightest...


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: politicus on April 04, 2012, 11:31:38 AM
Tuaregs are linguistically very near to the Berbers in Morocco and Algeria. In West Africa the different groups are very mixed with each other, but is clear that the whole are between Senegal and Northern Nigeria is a complex chunk languages. In contrast the easiest new nations should be achieved in countries like Zimbabwe, Angola and Zambia.
Yes but with Zimbabwe (Shona/Ndebele) as a possible exception, the need to divide those countries is smaller than Nigeria or Tchad.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: politicus on April 04, 2012, 03:17:49 PM
The Tuareg aren't Arabic in the slightest...
No one said they where. I wrote "Arabic" (not Arabic), because I was talking about Moslem North Africans in general - including Berbers, Tuareg's etc. Arabic speakers are just the majority of North Africans, so its a convenient label. Like calling the British for English etc.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: minionofmidas on April 04, 2012, 03:37:06 PM
They are a people of the south side of the desert. Yes, they moved south at some point - a millennium ago. Are the Toubou "Arabic"?


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: opebo on April 05, 2012, 10:56:21 AM
What the heck?  I got death points and a censorship just for mentioning that George Lucas based a fictional alien people on the Tuareg?

I don't understand?  How is this offensive?  How is it 'trolling'?  Its a simple fact, and a prominent appearance of the Tuareg in Western culture.

Why on earth would anyone receive death points for something like that? 


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: politicus on April 05, 2012, 12:58:15 PM
What the heck?  I got death points and a censorship just for mentioning that George Lucas based a fictional alien people on the Tuareg? I don't understand?  How is this offensive?  How is it 'trolling'?  Its a simple fact, and a prominent appearance of the Tuareg in Western culture. Why on earth would anyone receive death points for something like that? 
Seems a bit over the top. I suppose it was trolling, but the semi-relevant kind.

Bad news: Tuareg leaders are meeting Al Quaeda bosses in Timbuktu and they are about to impose Sharia law in the areas they control.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Zioneer on April 05, 2012, 01:15:38 PM
What the heck?  I got death points and a censorship just for mentioning that George Lucas based a fictional alien people on the Tuareg? I don't understand?  How is this offensive?  How is it 'trolling'?  Its a simple fact, and a prominent appearance of the Tuareg in Western culture. Why on earth would anyone receive death points for something like that? 
Seems a bit over the top. I suppose it was trolling, but the semi-relevant kind.

Bad news: Tuareg leaders are meeting Al Quaeda bosses in Timbuktu and they are about to impose Sharia law in the areas they control.

Link? The MNLA has been mostly secular throughout this entire rebellion, so I'd have to see some evidence before I believe that. And if it's from a Malian state news source, I wouldn't trust it.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Insula Dei on April 05, 2012, 01:48:14 PM
At least some Touareg leaders seem to be genuinely unhappy about the sudden presence of 'out-of-region' islamists on their general side of this conflict, to say the least.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: politicus on April 05, 2012, 03:31:00 PM
What the heck?  I got death points and a censorship just for mentioning that George Lucas based a fictional alien people on the Tuareg? I don't understand?  How is this offensive?  How is it 'trolling'?  Its a simple fact, and a prominent appearance of the Tuareg in Western culture. Why on earth would anyone receive death points for something like that? 
Seems a bit over the top. I suppose it was trolling, but the semi-relevant kind.

Bad news: Tuareg leaders are meeting Al Quaeda bosses in Timbuktu and they are about to impose Sharia law in the areas they control.

Link? The MNLA has been mostly secular throughout this entire rebellion, so I'd have to see some evidence before I believe that. And if it's from a Malian state news source, I wouldn't trust it.
Denmarks Radio (DR) our public service TV channel. Normally reliable.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Zioneer on April 05, 2012, 05:10:38 PM
At least some Touareg leaders seem to be genuinely unhappy about the sudden presence of 'out-of-region' islamists on their general side of this conflict, to say the least.

From what I can tell, the leader of the Tuareg Islamists got kicked out of the main group for being too fanatical. And the Ansar Dine fringe rebels seem to be weak compared to the larger MNLA. It's only the incompetence of the coup leaders that's letting them invade Southern Mali.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: The Mikado on April 05, 2012, 05:17:11 PM
Yeah, Ansar Din (Timbuktu) and MNLA are different groups.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on April 05, 2012, 05:29:03 PM
Denmarks Radio (DR) our public service TV channel. Normally reliable.

I doubt DR has its own reporter in Mali, and maybe not even in the whole of West Africa.  If they are getting their reportage from RFI or AFP, I would not be at all surprised to see it tilt towards the official Malian line,  While the MNLA and Ansar Dine did work together to drive out the Malian Army from the north, they have separate goals.  While the BBC has reported that Ansar Dine has indicated that they will impose sharia law on the areas they control, it has not reported that the MNLA has agreed with that and indeed it looks like they may start fighting with each other.

I suspect that one reason the MNLA has declared they won't be heading further south is that they hope Ansar Dine will head south and confront the Malian army and thus grind both of their foes down,  For much the same reason, I don't expect that even if they could launch an offensive to the north that the Malian Army will head north right now as they would want the MNLA and AD to start fighting each other.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: lowtech redneck on April 05, 2012, 05:43:47 PM
Tuaregs are linguistically very near to the Berbers in Morocco and Algeria. In West Africa the different groups are very mixed with each other, but is clear that the whole are between Senegal and Northern Nigeria is a complex chunk languages. In contrast the easiest new nations should be achieved in countries like Zimbabwe, Angola and Zambia.

At this point, I think that mass secessions anywhere in Africa would cause far more problems than it solves....though I do think the secession of South Sudan was to the greater good (except possibly for oppressive North Sudanese Islamists and 'Arab' supremacists, whose 'good' I just don't care about).


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Zioneer on April 05, 2012, 10:28:55 PM
Found an article in French (remember, French is one of the major languages in West Africa) that should clear things up: http://afrique.blog.lemonde.fr/2012/04/05/les-rebelles-touareg-en-guerre-contre-al-qaida-au-maghreb-islamique/

Here's the GoogleTranslated translation:

Quote

Tuareg rebels in the war against al Qaeda in Islamic Maghreb?

The situation is still evolving as fast in northern Mali, but this time there is no question of lightning advances toward Bamako. He would rather the turn of the war, with Tuareg rebels who would fight AQIM (Al Qaeda in Islamic Maghreb). Just when the Tuareg movement announced (Wednesday night) the "end of military operations"? In reality, this unilateral decision by the MNLA concerns only the advance southward, and then suspends the attacks towards loyalist areas. The lock, from this point of view, would have been Mopti. Precisely, the MNLA has not taken Mopti (except shift), and their troops, having driven or seen fleeing the loyalist troops across Northern Mali (Azawad), are now turning to domestic problems. This is where the problem arises with AQIM, and the forces of another rebel leader, Iyad ag Ghali, who seems opposed to the MNLA and closer to AQIM.

The problem is particularly acute in Timbuktu, where all these forces are nested inside each other for two days, but also in the rest of Azawad, this Northern Mali that could eventually become a territory in search of its autonomy. Gao, for example, elements of AQIM close (probably MUJOA group), participated according to the MNLA hostage during the consulate of Algeria. Two people with explosive belts would be right now with the hostages, and a source within the MNLA says his group "is reluctant to storm!" We see how the situation produces surprising effects.

But back to Timbuktu. The MNLA, controlled locally by its chief of staff, Mohamed Ag Najim was the first to come into town for the weekend, almost without a struggle, is materialized before another group, Ansar Dine, ordered by Iyag ag Ghali, and some AQIM katibas. Evidenced by various sources, including those contacted by telephone in the city.

Between the MNLA and AQIM, divorce is vital

In fact impossible to go to Timbuktu, and it must be based on several sources, but without personal verification and direct, to understand what is taking place.

But what is happening could be of paramount importance. In essence, the MNLA plans to address this to AQIM, why not with the help of Western countries and the region (West Africa). This is ag Sid'Ahmed Hama, External Relations and spokesperson for the Executive Office of the MNLA, which explains at midday Thursday.

Between the MNLA and AQIM, divorce is vital for Tuareg rebels who fear "amalgam" and have in mind the fate of their Azawad. To support his point of view, Hama dates back to ag Sid'Ahmed taking Timbuktu: The MNLA had negotiated entry into the city with some militias "Arab", but these militias are of several types. The first group, the most numerous, let him in without a fight in the MNLA Timbuktu, which had been abandoned by the regular troops (rather from the south of the country). The others are either relatives of Ansar Dine or members of pro-AQIM networks they are usually used for refueling. (More katibas because, over the years, had a habit of coming to shop in the cities, never raise ration of the Malian authorities).

Peaceful coexistence could be shattered soon

According to Hama ag Sid'Ahmed AQIM, it is the latter group would have raced to the abandoned camp to be used in military equipment. "The small group of Arabs who are the network of AQIM in Timbuktu long took up arms and ammunition in the camp. Everyone was doing and was using. It was one of the objectives of AQIM in Timbuktu. "
Since then, a sort of calm has been established in Timbuktu. forces MNLA, up to Thursday afternoon, were concentrated at the airport, but also went to the center, or hospital, run by a mixture of AQIM forces, local militias and fighters of Ansar Dine. A form of peaceful coexistence, probably short life expectancy.
Who should be shattered soon as the MNLA, according to his spokesman of the executive, would give an ultimatum until Friday to AQIM and Iyad ag Ghali troops to leave Timbuktu, otherwise the fighting begin . The same source, men can be classified as members of AQIM would be 146 on the extent of the city. The MNLA even claims to block the road AQIM South!

The MNLA goes even further: in a second step, this would all positions of AQIM in Mali that could be attacked, mainly in the north east, towards the Adora N'Fughas, area where normally Abu Zeid, one of the hardest emirs of AQIM, which still holds four French hostages.

In considering this war against AQIM, the MNLA offers to cooperate with countries in the region, which are now gathered in Abidjan, Ivory Coast, to advance on the definition of an African force could be deployed between North and South Mali. For such a hypothesis took shape, and a force still hypothetical eventually there should be a serious international support, probably a UN resolution, and an almost complete logistical support for this force. The MNLA proposes to Western countries "like France for example" (but also the U.S.) to participate in this operation Anti-AQIM. Waiting to see if this hypothesis is taking shape.

Meanwhile, pressure continues on the captain Sanogo, the junta leader in Bamako, to convince him to leave office. If he took this decision, perhaps soon, the path would be easier for an anti-AQIM. And the overthrow of Amadou Toumani Toure would have led to this ....

Since I don't speak French, this is the best I can give you.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: 2952-0-0 on April 06, 2012, 12:55:54 AM
The rebels have declared independence as a sovereign state:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-17635437


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: minionofmidas on April 06, 2012, 04:47:21 AM
()

A short dictator (wannabe)! Long live ancient stereotypes! (Yeah, the small guy with the beret is the junta chief Amadou Sanogo.)


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Zioneer on April 06, 2012, 11:38:54 AM
You know, I get the feeling that Sanogo won't last the month. He's going to get overthrown or killed before April ends. Anyone else think so?


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on April 06, 2012, 11:50:28 AM
You know, I get the feeling that Sanogo won't last the month. He's going to get overthrown or killed before April ends. Anyone else think so?

It's possible he'll just bow down, as well.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: politicus on April 06, 2012, 01:50:36 PM
You know, I get the feeling that Sanogo won't last the month. He's going to get overthrown or killed before April ends. Anyone else think so?
It's possible he'll just bow down, as well.
Thats the most likely IMO.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: MASHED POTATOES. VOTE! on April 06, 2012, 03:18:35 PM
Why am I always confusing Mali with Malawi? :/


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: The Mikado on April 06, 2012, 03:18:53 PM
Maybe we need another thread, keeping this one to describe the fate of the Sanogo regime and another one to discuss the putative state of Azawad?

...At the very least the Mali/Azawad divorce would create decent-looking countries on the map.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: 2952-0-0 on April 06, 2012, 05:41:49 PM
Why are the South Sudanese separatists called Freedom Fighters, when the Azawad separatists are called rebels and (without any proof) al-Qaida supporters?


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Yelnoc on April 06, 2012, 05:52:16 PM
Why are the South Sudanese separatists called Freedom Fighters, when the Azawad separatists are called rebels and (without any proof) al-Qaida supporters?
The media relies on the Mali for most of their opinion, and that is the line coming out of the south.  What you have here is a case of shoddy journalism.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: politicus on April 06, 2012, 08:10:21 PM
Why are the South Sudanese separatists called Freedom Fighters, when the Azawad separatists are called rebels and (without any proof) al-Qaida supporters?
The media relies on the Mali for most of their opinion, and that is the line coming out of the south.  What you have here is a case of shoddy journalism.
I think that the South Sudanese being partly Christian and fighting a Moslem government, that has imposed Sharia law, automatically gives them more sympathy in the West.
Both parties are (or in the case of SoSuds were) obviously rebels. FF is always a subjective label, IMO both SoSud and Tuaregs qualify as FF.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Yelnoc on April 06, 2012, 09:03:11 PM
Why are the South Sudanese separatists called Freedom Fighters, when the Azawad separatists are called rebels and (without any proof) al-Qaida supporters?
The media relies on the Mali for most of their opinion, and that is the line coming out of the south.  What you have here is a case of shoddy journalism.
I think that the South Sudanese being partly Christian and fighting a Moslem government, that has imposed Sharia law, automatically gives them more sympathy in the West.
Both parties are (or in the case of SoSuds were) obviously rebels. FF is always a subjective label, IMO both SoSud and Tuaregs qualify as FF.

Does knowing that the South Sudanese Liberation Army used child soldiers just like Kony's group dampen your opinion of them at all?


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Nhoj on April 06, 2012, 09:57:59 PM
You know, I get the feeling that Sanogo won't last the month. He's going to get overthrown or killed before April ends. Anyone else think so?

It's possible he'll just bow down, as well.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-17642276
Looks to be the case assuming he doesn't renege on the deal.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: minionofmidas on April 07, 2012, 04:16:39 AM
Touareg fighting against Mali proper adopting Islamism when their opponents have always been the more orthodox Muslims is about the best proof there could be of the following premise:
That groups or people with a grievance will adopt some ideology, and usually one that happens to be en vogue at the moment (and it helps if there's funds or allies available for people with that ideology), and trying to explain events with the ideology rather than the other way round is a fool's errand. As viz. South East Asian Communism in the 50s etc pp.

EDIT: Though the Government of Mali has never been Islamist, of course. I guess for a perfect example, you'd want that component thrown in as well. ;D


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: politicus on April 07, 2012, 07:21:26 AM
Why are the South Sudanese separatists called Freedom Fighters, when the Azawad separatists are called rebels and (without any proof) al-Qaida supporters?
The media relies on the Mali for most of their opinion, and that is the line coming out of the south.  What you have here is a case of shoddy journalism.
I think that the South Sudanese being partly Christian and fighting a Moslem government, that has imposed Sharia law, automatically gives them more sympathy in the West.
Both parties are (or in the case of SoSuds were) obviously rebels. FF is always a subjective label, IMO both SoSud and Tuareg's qualify as FF.

Does knowing that the South Sudanese Liberation Army used child soldiers just like Kony's group dampen your opinion of them at all?
Of course. I don't sympathize with their methods. But their cause is still just. If you fight for freedom and against the oppression of your people you are a freedomfighter in my book - no matter what methods you use.
ANC used child soldiers and tortured perceived traitors in their camps. But they obviously were FF.



Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Hash on April 07, 2012, 08:16:02 AM
Why are the South Sudanese separatists called Freedom Fighters, when the Azawad separatists are called rebels and (without any proof) al-Qaida supporters?

Because the South Sudanese are Christian. The media also conveniently forgot to mention that South Sudan is an authoritarian single-party state while they got mass erections out of South Sudan's independence.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Atlas Has Shrugged on April 07, 2012, 11:05:13 AM
Why are the South Sudanese separatists called Freedom Fighters, when the Azawad separatists are called rebels and (without any proof) al-Qaida supporters?

Because the South Sudanese are Christian. The media also conveniently forgot to mention that South Sudan is an authoritarian single-party state while they got mass erections out of South Sudan's independence.
Still not as bad as the genocidal military regime of Omar Al Bashir in Khartoum.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: 2952-0-0 on April 07, 2012, 02:00:04 PM
Of course. I don't sympathize with their methods. But their cause is still just. If you fight for freedom and against the oppression of your people you are a freedomfighter in my book - no matter what methods you use.
ANC used child soldiers and tortured perceived traitors in their camps. But they obviously were FF.

This is a very dangerous black and white view of the world. The Taliban also fought against oppression of their people and "for freedom". The CIA is now sponsoring perhaps dozens of armed groups in Iran, many of which make the Ayatollahs look like Confucian sages in comparison. And besides, South Africa was only a success because Mandela broke with the ANC's violent past and preached reconciliation. We can easily imagine an alternate ending where the ANC becomes like ZANU-PF where a Freedom Fighter gradually becomes an oppressive dictator.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: politicus on April 07, 2012, 04:02:11 PM
Of course. I don't sympathize with their methods. But their cause is still just. If you fight for freedom and against the oppression of your people you are a freedomfighter in my book - no matter what methods you use.
ANC used child soldiers and tortured perceived traitors in their camps. But they obviously were FF.

This is a very dangerous black and white view of the world. The Taliban also fought against oppression of their people and "for freedom". The CIA is now sponsoring perhaps dozens of armed groups in Iran, many of which make the Ayatollahs look like Confucian sages in comparison. And besides, South Africa was only a success because Mandela broke with the ANC's violent past and preached reconciliation. We can easily imagine an alternate ending where the ANC becomes like ZANU-PF where a Freedom Fighter gradually becomes an oppressive dictator.
Yes. ANC could have been another dictatorial one-party (and there is still a small risk they could go that way). But you cant deny that their cause was just - making them FF.
The Taliban didn't fight for freedom. They fought to uphold gender apartheid and religious intolerance. I could never view that as "freedom", even if they believed that themselves.
The people of South Sudan has been oppressed in such an extreme way, that some sort of independence is the only way forward and the Tuaregs have a very good claim to independence from the alien culture in the South.
Both worthy causes.

I don't believe that any group claiming to fight for freedom or against oppression is FFs. An example:

ETA 2000: Clearly not FF since the Basques were not oppressed by the modern Spanish state, which is a democracy and has given them autonomy which protects their language and culture. They could (de facto) obtain independence by getting a majority for it in their parliament and holding a referendum. And a majority of the Basques had accepted autonomy in a referendum.

ETA 1970: Fighting the fascists. Clearly FF - even if they used terror.

So even though ETA had the same self perception, goals, methods and ideology in 1970 and 2000. They changed from FFs to terrorists IMO. But as I said FF is a highly subjective term. "One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter".


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: MaxQue on April 07, 2012, 05:38:00 PM
On ETA subject, didn't they abandonned terror and armed struggle last year?


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on April 07, 2012, 08:15:11 PM
Why does everyone have to be "clearly FF" or "clearly not FF"?


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: 2952-0-0 on April 08, 2012, 02:22:19 AM
Yes. ANC could have been another dictatorial one-party (and there is still a small risk they could go that way). But you cant deny that their cause was just - making them FF.
The Taliban didn't fight for freedom. They fought to uphold gender apartheid and religious intolerance. I could never view that as "freedom", even if they believed that themselves.
The people of South Sudan has been oppressed in such an extreme way, that some sort of independence is the only way forward and the Tuaregs have a very good claim to independence from the alien culture in the South.
Both worthy causes.
According to that definition, a group can only be called "Freedom Fighters" in retrospect. The American Revolutionaries rebelled against a government which was generally governed by law and was (for its time) very democratic, and committed horrors against loyalists. Someone in 1975 would have seen the ANC and ZANU-PF as equally deserving to be called Freedom Fighters. When the People's Liberation Army marched through China in the late 1940s, they were almost universally welcomed by the peasants as liberators from oppressive and corrupt landlords, and in fact Mao depended hugely on peasants volunteering in droves. And let's not forget a whole slew of right-wing Republicans are hailing MEK as "Freedom Fighters" when they make the Ayatollahs look like Confucian sages in comparison. "Freedom Fighters" is 95% propaganda.

Quote
I don't believe that any group claiming to fight for freedom or against oppression is FFs. An example:

ETA 2000: Clearly not FF since the Basques were not oppressed by the modern Spanish state, which is a democracy and has given them autonomy which protects their language and culture. They could (de facto) obtain independence by getting a majority for it in their parliament and holding a referendum. And a majority of the Basques had accepted autonomy in a referendum.

ETA 1970: Fighting the fascists. Clearly FF - even if they used terror.

So even though ETA had the same self perception, goals, methods and ideology in 1970 and 2000. They changed from FFs to terrorists IMO. But as I said FF is a highly subjective term. "One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter".
But doesn't this make descriptions change in retrospect? It's very dangerous to reduce the world to simple black and white.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: ag on April 08, 2012, 02:58:57 AM
"Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason? Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason."


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: minionofmidas on April 08, 2012, 06:37:36 AM
I cannot find regional results for the 2007 presidential elections anywhere, and for the parliamentary election, only lists of winners by constituency.
That is in sharp contrast to 2002, where results by region are available. And that presidential election has some, uh, interesting results.
The national first round tally was Amadou Toumani Touré 28.0%, Soumaila Cissé 22.7%, Ibrahim Keita 20.7%, with Tiébilé Dramé leading the long list of others at 3.9%.
Keita cried foul over his third place - and we'll see how it came to be in a sec - and the Constitutional Court ended up "solving" the issue by annulling the votes of everywhere with reports of irregularities - which had the advantage of getting Keita very close to Cissé but not ahead of him, 28.7 to 21.3 to 21.0 (to 4.0 Dramé). Keita then endorsed Touré for the runoff and he won in a landslide, with 64.4% of the vote, though on a reduced turnout.

()

Here be the regional results... including the later annulled votes (don't have the breakdown without them)...

first, core Mali as it were...
Kayes, 39% turnout, Cissé 24%, Keita 21%, Touré 17%, Dramé 12% (I am listing the top four and anybody over 5%). Runoff, turnout 30%, Touré 61%
Koulikoro, 33% turnout. Keita 26%, Touré 25%, Cissé 18%, Dramé 5%. Runoff, turnout 26%, Touré 66%
the capital city of Bamako, 33% turnout, Keita 37%, Touré 33%, Cissé just 10%, Mountaga Tall 6%. Runoff, turnout 24%, Touré a whopping 79%
Sikasso, turnout 41%, Touré 23%, Keita 18% despite being from the region, Cissé 16%, Mamadou Sangaré 8%, Moussa Coulibaly 7%. Runoff, turnout 27%, Touré 67%
Ségou, turnout 38%, Touré 24%, Cissé 23%, Keita 21%, Tall 7%. Runoff, turnout 27%, Touré 64%

Malians abroad, turnout 22% (that's almost 5% of the total vote cast!), Touré 39%, Keita 24%, Cissé 18%, Choguel Maïga 3%

Mopti. Touré's home region. Eastern end claimed (and at least partially held) by Azawad insurgents. Turnout 45%, Touré 46%, Cissé 23%,  Keita 11%, Coulibaly 2%

And in Azawad...
Tombouctou, turnout 54%, Cissé 46%, Touré 25%, Keita 12%, Dramé 2%. Runoff, turnout 49%, Cissé 54%.
Gao, turnout 46%, Cissé 43%, Touré 22%, Keita 19%, Maïga 3%. Runoff, turnout 44%, Cissé 54%.
And the wholly Touareg, and very low population, Kidal: turnout 51%, Cissé 43%, Keita 22%, Tall 13%, Dramé 8%, Touré 7%. Runoff, turnout 59%, Cissé 72%. Ahem.

Cissé is a northerner, of course; a Songhai I suppose? Touré's military background presumably did not help him any in the north.
Touré's first two prime ministers were also northerners... that changed right after his 2007 reelection. In which Cissé was supporting him, Keita being the main challenger, the official result being 72-19 on a turnout comparable to 2002's, with massive allegations of fraud that settled down, apparently because the opposition knew that Touré would have won a fair vote, just by a smaller margin; and from what little I can find on the issue, the capital of Bamako had become Keita's stronghold.
Hmmm. All I can really say is, ag is right, term limits are a good idea in countries like that.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: politicus on April 08, 2012, 08:44:12 AM
Why does everyone have to be "clearly FF" or "clearly not FF"?
They don't. There is an element of FF in most rebel movements, as well as an element of oppression.
You can be a FF in one respect and an oppressor in another. Often FFs become the new oppressors themselves. Like Mao or Mugabe.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on April 08, 2012, 05:52:25 PM
Cissé is a northerner, of course; a Songhai I suppose?

I searched and while I didn't find anything definitive on his ethnicity, what I did find indicates that Cissé is a surname in use among the Mande peoples.  Possibly it is more widely used, but if not then he couldn't be Songhai.

In any case, given Cissé's politics, he will not be in favor of a separate Azawad.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: minionofmidas on April 09, 2012, 04:07:07 AM
Cissé is a northerner, of course; a Songhai I suppose?

I searched and while I didn't find anything definitive on his ethnicity, what I did find indicates that Cissé is a surname in use among the Mande peoples.
Certainly not exclusively. A quick search found Fula and Wolof people by the name. Of course, West African languages/peoples are not actually endogamous groups or anything, which is a large part of the reason why such info isn't widely available for townsfolk - their ethnicity is frequently not clearly defined (and countries certainly aren't encouraging ethnic definition, what with the threat to "national" unity and all).

In any case, given Cissé's politics, he will not be in favor of a separate Azawad.
No, of course not.
There was peace or near-peace in the north for the first twenty years of democracy though - as long as Touareg had some hope that democracy might lead to a fairer treatment of their grievances. here (second half) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehRjQkk48dI) is a current interview with him on the issue, bearing in mind that he's running for President again.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on April 10, 2012, 11:24:56 PM
Mali coup leader rejects possible Ecowas intervention (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-17662913)

Looks like Capt. Sanogo isn't planning on handing everything back to a civilian government after all.

Quote
The West African regional bloc Ecowas has said it is preparing a force of up to 3,000 soldiers, which could be deployed to wrest back control of the north.

Last week, Capt Sanogo formally asked for Ecowas's help in defeating the rebels, but in televised remarks on Monday night he said he was only asking for equipment and logistical support.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: minionofmidas on June 30, 2012, 01:16:17 PM
Ansar Dine captures Tombouctou.

Um.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Snowstalker Mk. II on June 30, 2012, 02:10:54 PM
I think a new country's on the horizon.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Simfan34 on June 30, 2012, 03:29:03 PM
I think a new country's on the horizon.

This already happened.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: CatoMinor on June 30, 2012, 03:46:52 PM
I must have missed all of this. I thought there was just a coup, is a it a civil war now?


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Simfan34 on June 30, 2012, 03:55:29 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azawad


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: ○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└ on June 30, 2012, 10:59:08 PM
Ansar Dine is destroying heritage sites in Timbuktu. Sad. And this was just recently part of a 2,3 Freedom House country. For once the US picked the right side in this war.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Simfan34 on June 30, 2012, 11:07:15 PM
Well I suppose once these guys get to the Djenne mosque we'll feel an urge to do something.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on June 30, 2012, 11:46:52 PM
Well I suppose once these guys get to the Djenne mosque we'll feel an urge to do something.

Djenne is not in Azawad, and even it were, the Islamists aren't targeting mosques in general but those that function as Sufi shrines.  While there are two tombs that are part of the Djenne mosque, I'm doubtful that even if the Islamists take the town that they would destroy the while mosque.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: minionofmidas on July 01, 2012, 04:11:51 AM
They wouldn't be able to hold it long if they tried. Djenné feels kinda strongly about the place.


Title: Re: Coup d'etat in Mali
Post by: Snowstalker Mk. II on July 01, 2012, 06:28:48 PM
Sad to see the destruction of such priceless monuments.