Talk Elections

Election Archive => 2012 Elections => Topic started by: retromike22 on May 12, 2012, 01:05:58 PM



Title: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: retromike22 on May 12, 2012, 01:05:58 PM
And this more than anything explains why I am a liberal and not a conservative.

http://www.barackobama.com/life-of-julia (http://www.barackobama.com/life-of-julia)


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: pbrower2a on May 12, 2012, 05:41:55 PM
I am man enough... to like this.


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: Lambsbread on May 12, 2012, 06:53:03 PM
lol


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: memphis on May 12, 2012, 07:07:14 PM
It's nice that they thought to personalize the issues. It would have been much more effective if they used actual people.


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: Frozen Sky Ever Why on May 12, 2012, 07:09:11 PM
Most of this is possibly crap, but the health care thing is a real issue for me. If Romney's plan is just to repeal it with nothing to replace it with there's no way I'm voting for him.


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: Lambsbread on May 12, 2012, 07:22:05 PM
Most of this is possibly crap, but the health care thing is a real issue for me. If Romney's plan is just to repeal it with nothing to replace it with there's no way I'm voting for him.

()


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: Frozen Sky Ever Why on May 12, 2012, 07:23:27 PM
Most of this is possibly crap, but the health care thing is a real issue for me. If Romney's plan is just to repeal it with nothing to replace it with there's no way I'm voting for him.

()

I'm talking about Obamacare. Where is the alternative plan?


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: Lambsbread on May 12, 2012, 07:32:34 PM
http://www.gop.gov/indepth/pledge/healthcare (http://www.gop.gov/indepth/pledge/healthcare)


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: Snowstalker Mk. II on May 12, 2012, 08:13:01 PM
HURR DURR FREE MAWRKET!!!!111


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: Lambsbread on May 12, 2012, 08:17:57 PM

()


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: greenforest32 on May 12, 2012, 08:26:40 PM
lol @ "Purchase Health Insurance across State Lines"

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/02/selling_insurance_across_state.html

Quote
The big Republican idea to bring down health-care costs is to "let families and businesses buy health insurance across state lines." Jon Chait has some commentary here, but I want to simplify a little bit.

Insurance is currently regulated by states. California, for instance, says all insurers have to cover treatments for lead poisoning, while other states let insurers decide whether to cover lead poisoning, and leaves lead poisoning coverage -- or its absence -- as a surprise for customers who find that they have lead poisoning. Here's a list (pdf) of which states mandate which treatments.

The result of this is that an Alabama plan can't be sold in, say, Oregon, because the Alabama plan doesn't conform to Oregon's regulations. A lot of liberals want that to change: It makes more sense, they say, for insurance to be regulated by the federal government. That way the product is standard across all the states.

Conservatives want the opposite: They want insurers to be able to cluster in one state, follow that state's regulations and sell the product to everyone in the country. In practice, that means we will have a single national insurance standard. But that standard will be decided by South Dakota. Or, if South Dakota doesn't give the insurers the freedom they want, it'll be decided by Wyoming. Or whoever.

This is exactly what happened in the credit card industry, which is regulated in accordance with conservative wishes. In 1980, Bill Janklow, the governor of South Dakota, made a deal with Citibank: If Citibank would move its credit card business to South Dakota, the governor would literally let Citibank write South Dakota's credit card regulations. You can read Janklow's recollections of the pact here[1].

Citibank wrote an absurdly pro-credit card law, the legislature passed it, and soon all the credit card companies were heading to South Dakota. And that's exactly what would happen with health-care insurance. The industry would put its money into buying the legislature of a small, conservative, economically depressed state. The deal would be simple: Let us write the regulations and we'll bring thousands of jobs and lots of tax dollars to you. Someone will take it. The result will be an uncommonly tiny legislature in an uncommonly small state that answers to an uncommonly conservative electorate that will decide what insurance will look like for the rest of the nation.

As it happens, the Congressional Budget Office looked at a bill along these lines back in 2005. They found that the legislation wouldn't change the number of the uninsured and would save the federal government about $12 billion between 2007 and 2015. That is to say, it would do very little in the aggregate.

[1] http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/credit/more/rise.html


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: Sbane on May 12, 2012, 10:48:28 PM
http://www.gop.gov/indepth/pledge/healthcare (http://www.gop.gov/indepth/pledge/healthcare)

Nothing in there to ensure coverage for everybody. Don't get me wrong, there are some very good ideas in there but it's not comprehensive. We need to agree that every American should have health coverage if they desire it, and I don't see the Republicans propose that. The means are not that important to me and I am open to listening to both sides, but we must agree on the end.


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: Purch on May 13, 2012, 07:55:36 AM
If I was a republican I'd be asking "who the hell is Julia...And why am I paying for her".


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY on May 13, 2012, 07:57:50 AM
If I was a republican I'd be asking "who the hell is Julia...And why am I paying for her".
And if I were responding to you I'd be saying "Julia pays her taxes just like you, so that you too can get Social Security and Medicare and all that good stuff. Everyone pays for everyone else."


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: Purch on May 13, 2012, 08:01:58 AM
If I was a republican I'd be asking "who the hell is Julia...And why am I paying for her".
And if I were responding to you I'd be saying "Julia pays her taxes just like you, so that you too can get Social Security and Medicare and all that good stuff. Everyone pays for everyone else."

And then I'd ask you if you actually think that Social Security and Medicare are sustainable in the long run as they are now.


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: pbrower2a on May 13, 2012, 08:19:05 AM
Most of this is possibly crap, but the health care thing is a real issue for me. If Romney's plan is just to repeal it with nothing to replace it with there's no way I'm voting for him.

()

I'm talking about Obamacare. Where is the alternative plan?

Profits above all else, and when you run out of money or government aid you die.


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: Vosem on May 13, 2012, 08:23:01 AM
Most of this is possibly crap, but the health care thing is a real issue for me. If Romney's plan is just to repeal it with nothing to replace it with there's no way I'm voting for him.

()

I'm talking about Obamacare. Where is the alternative plan?

Profits first, profits only, and when you run out of money or government aid you die.
No, of course not. You'll still be treated, after you're treated you'll just actually have to pay for treatment. A hospital is obliged to treat everybody; but in a fair world, like the pre-Obamacare world (which was not perfect but still good) everybody would afterwards have to pay for said treatment.

If I was a republican I'd be asking "who the hell is Julia...And why am I paying for her".
And if I were responding to you I'd be saying "Julia pays her taxes just like you, so that you too can get Social Security and Medicare and all that good stuff. Everyone pays for everyone else."

But, see, I don't want to pay for Julia. I want to pay for myself, for my family, and for no one else. I don't want to be dependent on the government, particularly on a system like this that is bound to become inefficient and corrupt, and will only increase our debt and make the deficit worse. I don't want that, and I don't think most Americans do. It reeks of 'welfare state'.


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: Lambsbread on May 13, 2012, 08:35:50 AM
Krazen hasn't been banned yet for this trollrific bs?


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: memphis on May 13, 2012, 08:51:43 AM

No, of course not. You'll still be treated, after you're treated you'll just actually have to pay for treatment. A hospital is obliged to treat everybody; but in a fair world, like the pre-Obamacare world (which was not perfect but still good) everybody would afterwards have to pay for said treatment.


Except they don't. Millions of people receive (extremely costly) treatment at hospitals and never pay their bills. So, we're already paying for them. Which is why the individual mandate was originally a conservative idea.


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: Lambsbread on May 13, 2012, 08:57:15 AM
No, of course not. You'll still be treated, after you're treated you'll just actually have to pay for treatment. A hospital is obliged to treat everybody; but in a fair world, like the pre-Obamacare world (which was not perfect but still good) everybody would afterwards have to pay for said treatment.

Except they don't. Millions of people receive (extremely costly) treatment at hospitals and never pay their bills. So, we're already paying for them. Which is why the individual mandate was originally a conservative idea.

Then don't force everyone to pay into a program because a select few refuse to pay their bills. We all don't face tax evasion charges just because John Q. Smith doesn't pay his taxes.


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: krazen1211 on May 13, 2012, 09:00:43 AM
If I was a republican I'd be asking "who the hell is Julia...And why am I paying for her".
And if I were responding to you I'd be saying "Julia pays her taxes just like you, so that you too can get Social Security and Medicare and all that good stuff. Everyone pays for everyone else."

The life of Julia bears no mention of Julia paying tax at any age.


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: bore on May 13, 2012, 09:30:11 AM
If I was a republican I'd be asking "who the hell is Julia...And why am I paying for her".
And if I were responding to you I'd be saying "Julia pays her taxes just like you, so that you too can get Social Security and Medicare and all that good stuff. Everyone pays for everyone else."

The life of Julia bears no mention of Julia paying tax at any age.


Under President Obama: Julia retires. After years of contributing to Social Security, she receives monthly benefits that help her retire comfortably, without worrying that she'll run out of savings. This allows her to volunteer at a community garden.


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: memphis on May 13, 2012, 09:35:26 AM
No, of course not. You'll still be treated, after you're treated you'll just actually have to pay for treatment. A hospital is obliged to treat everybody; but in a fair world, like the pre-Obamacare world (which was not perfect but still good) everybody would afterwards have to pay for said treatment.

Except they don't. Millions of people receive (extremely costly) treatment at hospitals and never pay their bills. So, we're already paying for them. Which is why the individual mandate was originally a conservative idea.

Then don't force everyone to pay into a program because a select few refuse to pay their bills. We all don't face tax evasion charges just because John Q. Smith doesn't pay his taxes.
I don't think you're following me. Hospitals already have to compensate for people who don't pay. Medical bills are higher because of the indigent.


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: tpfkaw on May 13, 2012, 10:17:20 AM
lol @ "Purchase Health Insurance across State Lines"

This is extremely amusing in that it's essentially an implicit admission that absolutely nobody, when push comes to shove, is willing to pay more for more regulated insurance (or credit cards).  Nobody finds the value of increased regulations higher than the value of whatever money they save on their health insurance or their credit cards.  It's therefore an admission that liberal policies on health insurance, credit cards etc. are inferior.

Similar, actually, to how confidently asserting that homosexuality is a choice is an implicit admission of one's own homosexual desires.


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: pbrower2a on May 13, 2012, 10:56:39 AM
If I was a republican I'd be asking "who the hell is Julia...And why am I paying for her".
And if I were responding to you I'd be saying "Julia pays her taxes just like you, so that you too can get Social Security and Medicare and all that good stuff. Everyone pays for everyone else."

The life of Julia bears no mention of Julia paying tax at any age.

She is making a solid income, so you can assume that she is paying federal income taxes and state sales or income taxes.


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: Sbane on May 13, 2012, 12:45:58 PM
No, of course not. You'll still be treated, after you're treated you'll just actually have to pay for treatment. A hospital is obliged to treat everybody; but in a fair world, like the pre-Obamacare world (which was not perfect but still good) everybody would afterwards have to pay for said treatment.

Except they don't. Millions of people receive (extremely costly) treatment at hospitals and never pay their bills. So, we're already paying for them. Which is why the individual mandate was originally a conservative idea.

Then don't force everyone to pay into a program because a select few refuse to pay their bills. We all don't face tax evasion charges just because John Q. Smith doesn't pay his taxes.

A trip to the ER can easily cost you more than a luxury car (not hyperbole, you can check it out yourself). It's not that they refuse to pay, they are just unable to pay. And anyone who can afford that bill already has insurance so they don't need to worry about it. And insurance companies get deep, deep discounts on the sticker price of those procedures. Individuals do not. Of course that doesn't necessarily mean we need to force individuals to purchase insurance, just make sure they have the ability to regardless of their income or station in life. We just need to make sure that the freeloaders then don't get medical care.

Also the individual mandate is a Republican idea, and was supported by Republicans as late as 2008-2009. They just saw it's unpopularity, changed their position and started attacking Democrats for it. The Democrats are fools, they should have B-slapped the Republicans and pushed through a public option. Then again the Democratic party is also owned by the insurance companies so maybe not......


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: Person Man on May 13, 2012, 02:09:00 PM
I really love how the actual short term implications of this issue quickly overshadow the global ramifications of these issues.

I think the big issue is-

If someone is mired in debt by being forced to pay for uncovered emergency treatments, how will they ever save or make enough money to not be needy or to pay sufficient taxes?

Either way, we still have to "pay for somebody else".... this talking point is more anti-social than pro-responsibility.

Which brings me to another question...


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: retromike22 on May 13, 2012, 05:06:17 PM
But, see, I don't want to pay for Julia. I want to pay for myself, for my family, and for no one else. I don't want to be dependent on the government, particularly on a system like this that is bound to become inefficient and corrupt, and will only increase our debt and make the deficit worse. I don't want that, and I don't think most Americans do. It reeks of 'welfare state'.

Fine, then you can't use the freeways, public transportation, public education, public libraries, the fire department, or the police. You're on your own. A public system easily becomes inefficient when taxes are decreased, because there is less money to provide those services. It also will obviously become inefficient when certain sections of public services are eliminated.

I can understand the traditional conservative position, which is to "conserve" the way things are, while liberals enact change. But the current conservative position, which is really "reversing" the change is an oxymoron. Conservative politicians take office claiming the government can't solve problems, and then when they get into office they decrease taxes or reduce services to create the government's inefficiency. It's an endless cycle of politicians distrusting the government, gaining office to debilitate the government, and then blaming the government's inefficiency to keep in office.

It's like a group of people are deciding to fix a man's house, and that man is claiming that they can't do it and he can do it himself. And then that person sabotages the group's effort, and when there is a cascade of greater problems, the guy says "See, I told you it wouldn't work."

It's the same reason why I am always of suspicious of upcoming politicians who have no history of working in government, only in the private sector, who claim that they are better qualified that an "experienced" politician.

This is a quote I took from an earlier posting of mine:
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=150061.msg3217915#msg3217915 (https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=150061.msg3217915#msg3217915)

1. I cannot think of any other profession where a limited amount of experience is seen an advantage. Romney's message is basically this: "I am best qualified to be President, because I have a limited amount of experience in government."

It's like a game of mad libs: "I am best qualified to be a (position), because I have a limited amount of experience in (position's field)."

I can't imagine this working: "I am best qualified to be a surgeon, because I have a limited amount of experience in physiology."


Title: Re: "The Life of Julia" under Obama vs. under Romney.
Post by: Vosem on May 13, 2012, 06:30:19 PM
No, of course not. You'll still be treated, after you're treated you'll just actually have to pay for treatment. A hospital is obliged to treat everybody; but in a fair world, like the pre-Obamacare world (which was not perfect but still good) everybody would afterwards have to pay for said treatment.

Except they don't. Millions of people receive (extremely costly) treatment at hospitals and never pay their bills. So, we're already paying for them. Which is why the individual mandate was originally a conservative idea.

Then don't force everyone to pay into a program because a select few refuse to pay their bills. We all don't face tax evasion charges just because John Q. Smith doesn't pay his taxes.

A trip to the ER can easily cost you more than a luxury car (not hyperbole, you can check it out yourself). It's not that they refuse to pay, they are just unable to pay. And anyone who can afford that bill already has insurance so they don't need to worry about it. And insurance companies get deep, deep discounts on the sticker price of those procedures. Individuals do not. Of course that doesn't necessarily mean we need to force individuals to purchase insurance, just make sure they have the ability to regardless of their income or station in life. We just need to make sure that the freeloaders then don't get medical care.

Also the individual mandate is a Republican idea, and was supported by Republicans as late as 2008-2009. They just saw it's unpopularity, changed their position and started attacking Democrats for it. The Democrats are fools, they should have B-slapped the Republicans and pushed through a public option. Then again the Democratic party is also owned by the insurance companies so maybe not......

If you're unable to have insurance and you're unable to pay your hospital bills (actually, if the former is true, the latter must be true) then the fair option for the hospital and for the general population is to have you be in debt. It sucks if you are that person, of course, but the majority of Americans and the actual hospital workers will have more money.

But, see, I don't want to pay for Julia. I want to pay for myself, for my family, and for no one else. I don't want to be dependent on the government, particularly on a system like this that is bound to become inefficient and corrupt, and will only increase our debt and make the deficit worse. I don't want that, and I don't think most Americans do. It reeks of 'welfare state'.

Fine, then you can't use the freeways, public transportation, public education, public libraries, the fire department, or the police. You're on your own. A public system easily becomes inefficient when taxes are decreased, because there is less money to provide those services. It also will obviously become inefficient when certain sections of public services are eliminated.

The difference between most of the things you listed and health-care is that public transportation and the fire department and the police are designed to be shared by the community, but you can't share health-care. What I need for my condition does not equal what you need for your condition.

I can understand the traditional conservative position, which is to "conserve" the way things are, while liberals enact change. But the current conservative position, which is really "reversing" the change is an oxymoron. Conservative politicians take office claiming the government can't solve problems, and then when they get into office they decrease taxes or reduce services to create the government's inefficiency. It's an endless cycle of politicians distrusting the government, gaining office to debilitate the government, and then blaming the government's inefficiency to keep in office.

Well, the point of decreasing taxes is that because of that services will be cut. But because of left-wing opposition, instead of being cut they are crippled, so that they don't do anything but continue to exist, inefficiently. Both parties can play this sort of game, because both are to blame. You are right to an extent, though.

It's like a group of people are deciding to fix a man's house, and that man is claiming that they can't do it and he can do it himself. And then that person sabotages the group's effort, and when there is a cascade of greater problems, the guy says "See, I told you it wouldn't work."

It's the same reason why I am always of suspicious of upcoming politicians who have no history of working in government, only in the private sector, who claim that they are better qualified that an "experienced" politician.

This is a quote I took from an earlier posting of mine:
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=150061.msg3217915#msg3217915 (https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=150061.msg3217915#msg3217915)

1. I cannot think of any other profession where a limited amount of experience is seen an advantage. Romney's message is basically this: "I am best qualified to be President, because I have a limited amount of experience in government."

It's like a game of mad libs: "I am best qualified to be a (position), because I have a limited amount of experience in (position's field)."

I can't imagine this working: "I am best qualified to be a surgeon, because I have a limited amount of experience in physiology."

There is a logic to it. Somebody who has spent their lives in business understands how to spend money wisely. Surely a doctor would have better ideas about health-care reform than a 20-term Congressman, even though it is a political issue. Government does so many things that experts from many fields should be part of government.