Talk Elections

http://www.wnd.com/2012/05/iran-discovery-will-collapse-christianity/ (http://www.wnd.com/2012/05/iran-discovery-will-collapse-christianity/)


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I hear the deans of religious studies within many US colleges are jealous of this discovery.

Wait, you get your news from WND?

no, Drudge.  :P

A dubious claim. Specifically I'd like to know what their evidence for this portion is:


Even in the unlikely event it did turn out to be authentic, it wouldn't phase Christianity for the most part - most Christians would just ignore it.

And don't dis WND, for rumor has it it was Drew Zahn of WND who fed the jmfcst info of Palin’s plane rides 10 hours before she was announced as McCain's VP pick.  Without Drew Zhan of WND, the jmfcst wouldn’t hold the title for the biggest news scoop in Forum history.  And without that title, the jmfcst would have been banned long ago.

So, be thankful for WND, it is very important in keeping the civility of this Forum.

While the Gospel of Barnabas does give an avenue of insight into the Islamic view of Jesus about the earliest date that could be ascribed to it, even without considering the mentions of Mohammed, is of the time of Mohammed because of other things mentioned in the text.  There is no credible reason for anyone to take it as an authentic text written by Barnabas.

http://aina.org/news/2012022916569.htm (http://aina.org/news/2012022916569.htm)

However, beyond that, as the link points out above, the copy of the text in question is a pitiful forgery probably fabricated in the 21st century and certainly no earlier than the 19th, so it isn't even as old as the known authentic copies of that work.

Christianity is collapsing under the weight of Logic and Reason.

If Christianity collapses it's its own fault. Not logic's or reason's or Islam's and certainly not the government of Iran's.

Then why is it that all these "experts" and "scholars", who spend their whole lives forming arguments against Christianity, are batting 0.000?

confusing times, eh?

Exactly, a baseball player who strikes out all 4 times he is at the plate in a game can in no way claim he helped his team win.

what if he also pitched a no hitter?

(...you're not really helping me in this argument.)

We're talking an American League hitter.

(...I'm trying my best)

But what if he made a diving defensive play which prevented runs from scoring.  Can scholars only be DHs? What is significant about strikeouts?  Wouldn't an 0-4 in groundouts be just as useless9

Now, we're overthinking this.

Your honor, I rest my case...

dude admit it, you're just a Steve Bartman who screws his own team.  :P

No, I am a Neil O'Donnell who is color-blind and can't recognize his own team's colors!

yeah, but in your case, you didn't have a big black wide burly Charles Haley rushing you.

You once again seem to be confusing the dumb people you link from sensationalist news articles with every expert or scholar who argues against Christianity.

Also, considering the growing atheist movement and the fact that, by your own admission, the western world seems to be falling away from Christianity, can you really say it's 0.000?

you of all people should know that every numbskull expert and/ scholar referenced on this board over the last ten years, whether by me (rarely) or someone else (usually the case), has been exposed as being an empty suit.

But, if you know of an expert or scholar whose logic you think can't be exposed as either being pure conjecture or contrary to evidence, then PLEASE PLEASE name them and bring forth their theories, for you are more than aware I believe a mere Christian novice with no formal training can come off the bench out of a stone cold coma armed with only reason and a bible and without foreknowledge of these scholars point of view, and wipe the floor with the worthless credentials of these so called experts.

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The falling away of Christianity that is occurring, as prophesied to happen just prior to the reign of the AntiChrist, has to do with the increase of sin, not the fact that arguments against Christianity have increased in validity. 

I am a Christian, pal. I was trolling you.

;)

trolling the jmfcst will get you shot at, shot up, and shot down.

Read the bolded part again.


And when you find some actual evidence that points out Christianity is true, do let us know. The best arguments against Christianity are the ones that point out the fact that it's completely indemonstrable and as such its claims can't be distinguished from fiction or delusion.


You know most of the other atheists I know are former Christians, many of them fundamentalists and evangelicals. Usually the reason they give for not believing any more is that when they looked at things through the light of reason by using logic and evidence they found that they could no longer rationally defend their beliefs.

Christians have been claiming that the end is nigh and the world is falling into sin, that this or that is a portent of what was prophesized in the good book, etc. ever since there have been Christians. Can you give me one good reason to think that you and your ilk are actually right this time?

Jmf, by that logic, wouldn't that make a hypothetical revival/upswing in Christianity a bad thing from your perspective because it's putting off the Second Coming?  :P

Which sensationalist news articles would that be?  Are you attempting to use this thread as an excuse to claim everything discussed on this board in the last 10 years has been from “sensationalist news articles”?  If so, keep in mind the last 10 years have seen every popular argument represented and dismantled.

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So, you’re admitting that after 10 years, with the entire realm of the Intelligentsia at our finger tips, you’ll haven’t seen a single argument to discount Christianity?  In fact, their arguments are so weak, you’ve seen them dismantled effortlessly by Christians novices who have no credentials.  What a surprise.

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What are you talking about?  You just admitted that for 10 years it has been demonstrated to you that the world with all its knowledge, has not been able to lay a finger on Christianity.

You claim evidence in support of Christianity is lacking, but you haven’t told me what evidence is suppose to be.  For if Christianity were true, what evidence is lacking that you think should be present?  Did the NT claim proof of Jesus’ resurrection would be physically evident to the whole world?

The fact remains that given what the NT claims, in its historicity and in its teachings, the world we see and the history we know is in complete agreement. 

Example: The NT historicity claims match what we know about the 1st Century world, including the spread of Christianity as detailed in the book of Acts.  In fact, given what we know about the history of the 1st Century, the claims of Christianity are entirely plausible.

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Also, just take a look at how the figures of the bible were in such close contact with the world’s rulers.  Some examples: Joseph and Moses mingled with the upper echelon of Egypt…Daniel mingled with Babylon’s Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar and Persia’s Cyrus and Darius (father of Xerxes)…some of the Jews would return to Jerusalem, but many did not, which allowed the OT to retain a foothold throughout Europe and Asia and Africa…then Alexander the Great would conquer the Holy Land and prepare the way for the bible to be translated into an international language in preparation for a universal message the Messiah would give to the whole world…the Romans would then conquer the Holy Land and finalize clearing the path for that upcoming message…Jesus would stand before the Jewish Sanhedrin and Pontus Pilate and Herod Antipas…Paul would stand before the Sanhedrin, Felix, Festus, Agrippa, and Emperor Nero…and now the Gospel has been preached to every nation, just as the OT and NT predicted…and so on and so forth.

And all of this dovetails completely with the prophecy given around 4000 years ago to Abraham that God would make his seed the salt of the earth: “All nations will be blessed through you”…

The storyline of the bible doesn’t take place in a dark corner, rather the storyline takes place right out in front of the greatest powers of those times and touches the highest authorities of those nations.  And it overlays from what we know from secular sources.

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Oh, good, you found some expert scholars, from the inside, who can discredit Christianity with their theories.  Please tell us what their theories are.

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The important thing is what the bible states, not what post-NT Christians claim. But, I have given you no year or even a decade, much less a date.  I’m simply saying that:

1)   We are seeing a great falling away from Christianity unequalled in its nearly 2000 year history that aligns with the NT prophesied falling away.
2)   The world now has the technology to carry out the events spoken about in the bible during the very last days (the whole world coming under one government, the whole world being immediately aware of world events, the whole world being under a common economic system, the ability to destroy a world superpower in a single hour, etc, etc, etc.).
3)   Technology is making the tiny nation of Israel’s existence more and more precarious as its enemies are armed with WMD.  (Not to mention that Israel’s coming back into existence just 64 years ago is a huge fulfillment of prophesy and is the ONLY nation in world history to reconstitute itself after such a long hiatus.)

Now, it is possible the current situation outlined in points 1-3 could continue to get worse and worse over the next 200 years…but I highly doubt the trend can continue for that long.  I would think the next 50 years, maybe much sooner, will bring the matter to a head, especially in the case of Israel. 

So, not only are things trending to fulfill prophesy, but the trend (despite random noise) is accelerating.  More importantly, the trend is unsustainable given the fact the technology genie is out of the bottle and can not be put back.

Dude, there was no need for an Alexandrine conquest to do that.  At the time of Alexander, Aramaic was already an international language with at least as great a scope in usage as Greek, just centered further to the east.

No, I'm talking about all the articles you link to talk about "scholars". You keep harping on those.


No, I'm not. I'm pointing out that the best arguments against Christianity come from the total lack of evidence.

Also, you can't really prove a negative in most cases. Can you disprove that Mohammed received divine revelation? Can you demonstrate I don't have an invisible, ethereal dragon in my garage? No, you can't, but that doesn't mean such claims should be taken seriously.


Evidence that the creation account of Genesis is accurate. Geological evidence for a world wide flood. Evidence that resurrection after being dead for three days is even possible. Things like that.


No, but just because it did not claim it doesn't make the claim any more plausible.


Having some historical things match up doesn't make the miracle claims any more plausible. You could find some other religion whose texts match up with their historical ages in some ways, but I don't think you'd believe their miracle claims.


Many of the major figures in the Bible were leaders of their tribes and kingdoms, so it's not odd that they may have had contact with other rules. However, some of them aren't even verified to have existed, at least in the context of the Biblical stories.


Neither of these is miraculous and could be chalked up to being coincidence.


The greatest powers of the time in the region it takes place in, not all the greatest powers in all the world.


First off I didn't claim they were scholars. You really need to get rid of your horrible habit of putting words in people's mouths. But what those people saw is what I've been pointing out to you for years - that there isn't evidence for the miracle claims of the Bible, that the deity described in the Bible isn't a loving god but a horrible narcissistic monster who love blood, death, and torture, etc.

How many times have people made these claims, only to be found that their evidence was fake?  The best example I can think of off hand is Piltdown Man, but there are many more.