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General Politics => International General Discussion => Topic started by: Filuwaúrdjan on June 19, 2012, 05:46:15 PM



Title: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on June 19, 2012, 05:46:15 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18514726

lol, who writes this?


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Vosem on June 19, 2012, 09:04:41 PM
Rafael Correa is in some ways even worse than Hugo Chavez.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on June 19, 2012, 10:18:25 PM
Why am I not surprised the coward is trying to flee justice?  If nothing else, Assange is abundantly illustrating that he is no Gandhi, King, or Mandela.  What he claims to be fearing isn't as bad as what they actually faced, and what he might possibly face, even if he were to somehow be sent to the US from Sweden, isn't remotely what he claims to fear.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on June 19, 2012, 10:50:06 PM
Assange is a shameless self-promoting coward and Correa is not a credit to the Latin American left.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: dead0man on June 19, 2012, 11:07:05 PM
My favorite part is that when this story first broke a few years ago, all the half wits and usual suspects were saying he'd be dead by now.  Nope, still an attention whore.  (just like the half wits and usual suspects)


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Silent Hunter on June 20, 2012, 03:34:57 AM
If Assange were sent to the US by Sweden (which is less likely than from the UK), I somehow doubt he'd be executed - a lot of people did even more damage than he did and only got life sentences.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Silent Hunter on June 20, 2012, 03:40:46 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18514726

lol, who writes this?

The Swedes claimed he was a flight risk as well... Am I correct in thinking he might have violated his bail conditions?


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Gustaf on June 20, 2012, 04:32:33 AM
I don't get all this. Is Assange so deluded that he actually believes in the conspiracy theories or is he so sure of being found guilty?


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Middle-aged Europe on June 20, 2012, 06:06:46 AM
A highly entertaining development.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Insula Dei on June 20, 2012, 09:59:09 AM
I don't get all this. Is Assange so deluded that he actually believes in the conspiracy theories or is he so sure of being found guilty?

He may just want to avoid having to return to Sweden at all costs.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Franzl on June 20, 2012, 10:06:48 AM
I don't get all this. Is Assange so deluded that he actually believes in the conspiracy theories or is he so sure of being found guilty?

He may just want to avoid having to return to Sweden at all costs.

Where they obviously are going to hang him (probably under CIA orders?)

Not saying you believe that ;)


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Insula Dei on June 20, 2012, 10:32:31 AM
I don't get all this. Is Assange so deluded that he actually believes in the conspiracy theories or is he so sure of being found guilty?

He may just want to avoid having to return to Sweden at all costs.

Where they obviously are going to hang him (probably under CIA orders?)

Not saying you believe that ;)

Nah, Sweden just may be an awful place to spend your time.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: The Mikado on June 20, 2012, 11:19:22 AM
I don't get all this. Is Assange so deluded that he actually believes in the conspiracy theories or is he so sure of being found guilty?

He may just want to avoid having to return to Sweden at all costs.

Where they obviously are going to hang him (probably under CIA orders?)

Not saying you believe that ;)

Nah, Sweden just may be an awful place to spend your time.

True.  It produces people like Gustaf.

EDIT:  Worth pointing out that idealistic leftist idiots gave this scumbag 315,000 for his bail.  Since he's fleeing, the money is forfeited.  He just blew a third of a million dollars of his supporters' donated money on a ridiculous and likely-failed attempt to flee to Ecuador.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: © tweed on June 20, 2012, 02:21:50 PM
moderate heroism (translated: vapid liberal moralism) takes the thread


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Јas on June 20, 2012, 02:47:31 PM
... on a ridiculous and likely-failed attempt to flee to Ecuador.

I don't get Assange's thinking on this part - there isn't any obvious way for him to actually get to Ecuador. Barring something quite remarkable, it appears he's just confined himself to the Ecuadorian Embassy in London for however long the Ecuadorians will put up with him.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Dereich on June 20, 2012, 03:26:16 PM
... on a ridiculous and likely-failed attempt to flee to Ecuador.

I don't get Assange's thinking on this part - there isn't any obvious way for him to actually get to Ecuador. Barring something quite remarkable, it appears he's just confined himself to the Ecuadorian Embassy in London for however long the Ecuadorians will put up with him.

Maybe he's trying to do the same sort of thing Chen did in China?


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Јas on June 20, 2012, 04:15:26 PM
... on a ridiculous and likely-failed attempt to flee to Ecuador.

I don't get Assange's thinking on this part - there isn't any obvious way for him to actually get to Ecuador. Barring something quite remarkable, it appears he's just confined himself to the Ecuadorian Embassy in London for however long the Ecuadorians will put up with him.

Maybe he's trying to do the same sort of thing Chen did in China?

Chen was a de facto political prisoner of the Chinese and could only leave China with the acquiesence of the Chinese Government.

I can't imagine a circumstance whereby the British Government would acquiesce in allowing Assange to leave the Ecuadorian Embassy and depart the UK (other than in line with the determination of the British courts that he should be extradited to Sweden).


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Gustaf on June 20, 2012, 05:43:48 PM
I don't get all this. Is Assange so deluded that he actually believes in the conspiracy theories or is he so sure of being found guilty?

He may just want to avoid having to return to Sweden at all costs.

Where they obviously are going to hang him (probably under CIA orders?)

Not saying you believe that ;)

Nah, Sweden just may be an awful place to spend your time.

True.  It produces people like Gustaf.

EDIT:  Worth pointing out that idealistic leftist idiots gave this scumbag 315,000 for his bail.  Since he's fleeing, the money is forfeited.  He just blew a third of a million dollars of his supporters' donated money on a ridiculous and likely-failed attempt to flee to Ecuador.

Ok, that is a fair point. Then again, pro-rape jerks should fit right in here!


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: MaxQue on June 20, 2012, 08:24:42 PM
I don't get all this. Is Assange so deluded that he actually believes in the conspiracy theories or is he so sure of being found guilty?

He may just want to avoid having to return to Sweden at all costs.

Where they obviously are going to hang him (probably under CIA orders?)

Not saying you believe that ;)

Nah, Sweden just may be an awful place to spend your time.

True.  It produces people like Gustaf.

EDIT:  Worth pointing out that idealistic leftist idiots gave this scumbag 315,000 for his bail.  Since he's fleeing, the money is forfeited.  He just blew a third of a million dollars of his supporters' donated money on a ridiculous and likely-failed attempt to flee to Ecuador.

Ok, that is a fair point. Then again, pro-rape jerks should fit right in here!

I just wish to say he is suspected of being a rapist. Not guilty until proved so by the Court, which didn't pronounced yet on that.

Through, yes, him flying is suspicious and doesn't help his case (through it should have no effect on the trial, as him being guilty or not must be based on facts, not impressions.)


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Silent Hunter on June 21, 2012, 05:30:36 AM
I don't get all this. Is Assange so deluded that he actually believes in the conspiracy theories or is he so sure of being found guilty?

He may just want to avoid having to return to Sweden at all costs.

Where they obviously are going to hang him (probably under CIA orders?)

Not saying you believe that ;)

Nah, Sweden just may be an awful place to spend your time.

True.  It produces people like Gustaf.

EDIT:  Worth pointing out that idealistic leftist idiots gave this scumbag 315,000 for his bail.  Since he's fleeing, the money is forfeited.  He just blew a third of a million dollars of his supporters' donated money on a ridiculous and likely-failed attempt to flee to Ecuador.

Ok, that is a fair point. Then again, pro-rape jerks should fit right in here!

I just wish to say he is suspected of being a rapist. Not guilty until proved so by the Court, which didn't pronounced yet on that.

Through, yes, him flying is suspicious and doesn't help his case (through it should have no effect on the trial, as him being guilty or not must be based on facts, not impressions.)

He's not even been charged in Sweden - at the moment they just want to talk to him.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: MaxQue on June 21, 2012, 01:40:41 PM
I don't get all this. Is Assange so deluded that he actually believes in the conspiracy theories or is he so sure of being found guilty?

He may just want to avoid having to return to Sweden at all costs.

Where they obviously are going to hang him (probably under CIA orders?)

Not saying you believe that ;)

Nah, Sweden just may be an awful place to spend your time.

True.  It produces people like Gustaf.

EDIT:  Worth pointing out that idealistic leftist idiots gave this scumbag 315,000 for his bail.  Since he's fleeing, the money is forfeited.  He just blew a third of a million dollars of his supporters' donated money on a ridiculous and likely-failed attempt to flee to Ecuador.

Ok, that is a fair point. Then again, pro-rape jerks should fit right in here!

I just wish to say he is suspected of being a rapist. Not guilty until proved so by the Court, which didn't pronounced yet on that.

Through, yes, him flying is suspicious and doesn't help his case (through it should have no effect on the trial, as him being guilty or not must be based on facts, not impressions.)

He's not even been charged in Sweden - at the moment they just want to talk to him.

And they make such a deal of this? The Swede attorney/judge/whatever can take a plane and go in UK to talk to him, that would be simpler and quicker.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: bore on June 21, 2012, 01:47:45 PM
These really don't look like the actions of an innocent man, especially because it's actually harder to be extradited from Sweden than it is from the UK.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Silent Hunter on June 22, 2012, 03:52:39 AM

And they make such a deal of this? The Swede attorney/judge/whatever can take a plane and go in UK to talk to him, that would be simpler and quicker.

That isn't the way police forces operate on the whole. It is not hard for Assange to go to Stockholm himself - he can drive there in under 21 hours straight.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: MaxQue on June 22, 2012, 02:15:41 PM

And they make such a deal of this? The Swede attorney/judge/whatever can take a plane and go in UK to talk to him, that would be simpler and quicker.

That isn't the way police forces operate on the whole. It is not hard for Assange to go to Stockholm himself - he can drive there in under 21 hours straight.

And how cars leave UK? As far as I know, there is no bridge. Does Eurostar transport cars? The Dover-Calais boats, if they still exist?


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on June 22, 2012, 02:22:04 PM

And they make such a deal of this? The Swede attorney/judge/whatever can take a plane and go in UK to talk to him, that would be simpler and quicker.

That isn't the way police forces operate on the whole. It is not hard for Assange to go to Stockholm himself - he can drive there in under 21 hours straight.

And how cars leave UK? As far as I know, there is no bridge. Does Eurostar transport cars? The Dover-Calais boats, if they still exist?
Eurostar transports cars... sat next to a British couple in the Hofbrauhaus in Munich who had driven from suburban London


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on June 22, 2012, 03:00:50 PM
It is easy for a certain type of pack mentality to jeer at the desperate and rather hopeless moves of a man about to be crushed by the State, but I suppose living at the Ecuadorian embassy would be more comfortable than being tortured in Guantanamo or chemically castrated for not wearing a condom by the misandrist Swedes.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on June 22, 2012, 03:12:18 PM
moderate heroism (translated: vapid liberal moralism) takes the thread

Oh say, I didn't see this, well done and well said.  Really your point is more apropos and certainly pithier than mine above, but I figured since everyone else was just saying 'rapist' and 'jerk' and 'scumbag' and 'leftist idiots', I thought I might express myself a little.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: dead0man on June 22, 2012, 11:33:05 PM

And they make such a deal of this? The Swede attorney/judge/whatever can take a plane and go in UK to talk to him, that would be simpler and quicker.

That isn't the way police forces operate on the whole. It is not hard for Assange to go to Stockholm himself - he can drive there in under 21 hours straight.

And how cars leave UK? As far as I know, there is no bridge. Does Eurostar transport cars? The Dover-Calais boats, if they still exist?
Eurostar transports cars... sat next to a British couple in the Hofbrauhaus in Munich who had driven from suburban London
The Top Gear guys use the Chunnel.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Win32 on June 23, 2012, 12:05:42 AM
According to an Associated Press headline, "Ecuador asylum bid may not succeed." I am glad to have been enlightened.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Silent Hunter on June 23, 2012, 04:29:50 AM

And they make such a deal of this? The Swede attorney/judge/whatever can take a plane and go in UK to talk to him, that would be simpler and quicker.

That isn't the way police forces operate on the whole. It is not hard for Assange to go to Stockholm himself - he can drive there in under 21 hours straight.

And how cars leave UK? As far as I know, there is no bridge. Does Eurostar transport cars? The Dover-Calais boats, if they still exist?

Yes, that's correct. He could even get a ferry to Norway as well.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: morgieb on June 23, 2012, 06:24:51 AM
I will say one thing, the laws for rape in Sweden is stupid.

I'm not sure whether going to Sweden though will make Assange more likely to be extradited though.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Silent Hunter on June 23, 2012, 08:49:10 AM
I will say one thing, the laws for rape in Sweden is stupid.

Please explain, I'd like to know why you think this.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Gustaf on June 23, 2012, 09:32:07 AM
moderate heroism (translated: vapid liberal moralism) takes the thread

Oh say, I didn't see this, well done and well said.  Really your point is more apropos and certainly pithier than mine above, but I figured since everyone else was just saying 'rapist' and 'jerk' and 'scumbag' and 'leftist idiots', I thought I might express myself a little.

You and Tweed really take these things way too seriously.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on June 23, 2012, 10:10:41 AM
moderate heroism (translated: vapid liberal moralism) takes the thread

Oh say, I didn't see this, well done and well said.  Really your point is more apropos and certainly pithier than mine above, but I figured since everyone else was just saying 'rapist' and 'jerk' and 'scumbag' and 'leftist idiots', I thought I might express myself a little.

You and Tweed really take these things way too seriously.

Not so much, Gustaf - the point is in order to understand the main character of the story, one has to realize that he, quite naturally, does take it seriously.  No doubt you would as well were you in his shoes.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on June 23, 2012, 04:42:45 PM
moderate heroism (translated: vapid liberal moralism) takes the thread

Oh say, I didn't see this, well done and well said.  Really your point is more apropos and certainly pithier than mine above, but I figured since everyone else was just saying 'rapist' and 'jerk' and 'scumbag' and 'leftist idiots', I thought I might express myself a little.

You and Tweed really take these things way too seriously.

Not so much, Gustaf - the point is in order to understand the main character of the story, one has to realize that he, quite naturally, does take it seriously.  No doubt you would as well were you in his shoes.

I understand the main character, I just find him unsympathetic. Perhaps interesting, but not sympathetic. Disappointingly and unevenly written, too.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Gustaf on June 23, 2012, 06:03:38 PM
moderate heroism (translated: vapid liberal moralism) takes the thread

Oh say, I didn't see this, well done and well said.  Really your point is more apropos and certainly pithier than mine above, but I figured since everyone else was just saying 'rapist' and 'jerk' and 'scumbag' and 'leftist idiots', I thought I might express myself a little.

You and Tweed really take these things way too seriously.

Not so much, Gustaf - the point is in order to understand the main character of the story, one has to realize that he, quite naturally, does take it seriously.  No doubt you would as well were you in his shoes.

If I started engaging in non-consensual sex I would take it seriously, yes.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on June 24, 2012, 06:25:12 AM
I understand the main character, I just find him unsympathetic. Perhaps interesting, but not sympathetic. Disappointingly and unevenly written, too.

Really?  He's right up there with Bertie Wooster in my ranking.

If I started engaging in non-consensual sex I would take it seriously, yes.

If you have perpetrated heterosexual liaison in our patriarchal society, Gustaf, you have 'engaged in non-consensual sex'.  (according to some feminist analysis)


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: morgieb on June 24, 2012, 07:29:07 AM
I will say one thing, the laws for rape in Sweden is stupid.

Please explain, I'd like to know why you think this.

From what I've heard it was consensual, but some circumstances like not wearing condoms now makes it illegal. I just don't agree with it.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Tetro Kornbluth on June 24, 2012, 07:30:44 AM
Did I just see Opebo singing the glories of feminism?

Truly, this is an amazing thread of amazingness.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: dead0man on June 24, 2012, 08:03:17 AM
I will say one thing, the laws for rape in Sweden is stupid.

Please explain, I'd like to know why you think this.

From what I've heard it was consensual, but some circumstances like not wearing condoms now makes it illegal. I just don't agree with it.
wait wait wait ....you think it's ok to tell someone you're going to wear a condom during sex and then lie and NOT wear a condom during sex?  Really?


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: morgieb on June 24, 2012, 08:10:11 AM
I will say one thing, the laws for rape in Sweden is stupid.

Please explain, I'd like to know why you think this.

From what I've heard it was consensual, but some circumstances like not wearing condoms now makes it illegal. I just don't agree with it.
wait wait wait ....you think it's ok to tell someone you're going to wear a condom during sex and then lie and NOT wear a condom during sex?  Really?
No, but should it be illegal? That's more what I was getting at.

Yes, lying is bad. But do we know she would've refused sex if she had known Assange would not have used a condom?

And more importantly, wasn't he found innocent on said crimes beforehand?


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: dead0man on June 24, 2012, 08:33:54 AM
No, but should it be illegal? That's more what I was getting at.
yes
Quote
Yes, lying is bad. But do we know she would've refused sex if she had known Assange would not have used a condom?
I believe so.
Quote
And more importantly, wasn't he found innocent on said crimes beforehand?
If he had, wouldn't Sweden have dropped the whole thing by now?


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Silent Hunter on June 24, 2012, 08:39:43 AM

And more importantly, wasn't he found innocent on said crimes beforehand?

IIRC, the Swedes dropped the investigation then re-activated it. He has still not been charged in Sweden - the warrant is an arrest for questioning.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Gustaf on June 24, 2012, 08:50:14 AM
I understand the main character, I just find him unsympathetic. Perhaps interesting, but not sympathetic. Disappointingly and unevenly written, too.

Really?  He's right up there with Bertie Wooster in my ranking.

If I started engaging in non-consensual sex I would take it seriously, yes.

If you have perpetrated heterosexual liaison in our patriarchal society, Gustaf, you have 'engaged in non-consensual sex'.  (according to some feminist analysis)

Yes, all penetrative sex is rape and all that. Then again, it's not rape-rape!


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Gustaf on June 24, 2012, 08:51:02 AM
I will say one thing, the laws for rape in Sweden is stupid.

Please explain, I'd like to know why you think this.

From what I've heard it was consensual, but some circumstances like not wearing condoms now makes it illegal. I just don't agree with it.

It's hard to give consent when you're asleep. Just sayin'


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on June 24, 2012, 10:38:41 AM
I understand the main character, I just find him unsympathetic. Perhaps interesting, but not sympathetic. Disappointingly and unevenly written, too.

Really?  He's right up there with Bertie Wooster in my ranking.

Keep in mind that I, conversely, find for instance Makioka Yukiko incredibly sympathetic and fascinating.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on June 24, 2012, 05:33:37 PM
Did I just see Opebo singing the glories of feminism?

No.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on July 07, 2012, 06:02:21 PM
Here's a nice video I happened to be watching, which gives an excellent view of what a fine man is Assange. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2cgGao_tdA)


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on July 07, 2012, 06:52:23 PM
Here's a nice video I happened to be watching, which gives an excellent view of what a fine man is Assange. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2cgGao_tdA)

I saw the title of the video and who else was in it and closed the tab.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on July 08, 2012, 11:58:08 AM
Here's a nice video I happened to be watching, which gives an excellent view of what a fine man is Assange. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2cgGao_tdA)

I saw the title of the video and who else was in it and closed the tab.

Why? Afraid to face any questioning of your indoctrination?


Title: Assange update...
Post by: opebo on August 19, 2012, 11:22:03 AM
Assange to speak from Ecuador embassy in row over his fate (http://news.yahoo.com/assange-speak-ecuador-embassy-diplomatic-standoff-100646648.html)

Apparently he will speak from a little balcony so as not to be batoned by the bobbies.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on August 19, 2012, 11:35:02 AM
Assange's speech from the Balcony! (http://youtu.be/VvrLTBvWpd8)


Title: Re: Assange update...
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on August 19, 2012, 11:44:49 AM
Assange to speak from Ecuador embassy in row over his fate (http://news.yahoo.com/assange-speak-ecuador-embassy-diplomatic-standoff-100646648.html)

Apparently he will speak from a little balcony so as not to be batoned by the bobbies.

It's no surprise he'll be speaking from a balcony rather than inside the embassy.  He likely wants to be heckled as it plays into his martyred-messiah complex.


Title: Re: Assange update...
Post by: opebo on August 19, 2012, 12:00:17 PM
Assange to speak from Ecuador embassy in row over his fate (http://news.yahoo.com/assange-speak-ecuador-embassy-diplomatic-standoff-100646648.html)

Apparently he will speak from a little balcony so as not to be batoned by the bobbies.

It's no surprise he'll be speaking from a balcony rather than inside the embassy.  He likely wants to be heckled as it plays into his martyred-messiah complex.

Dude, you're just being silly.  Have you no sense of theater?  It is an amazing bit of luck for someone like him to have any platform to speak at all, and no doubt he'll disappear soon.  Of course he's going to make the most of it.  'Assange from the balcony' will be remembered long after nobody knows where he is.


Title: Re: Assange update...
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on August 19, 2012, 12:15:03 PM
Assange to speak from Ecuador embassy in row over his fate (http://news.yahoo.com/assange-speak-ecuador-embassy-diplomatic-standoff-100646648.html)

Apparently he will speak from a little balcony so as not to be batoned by the bobbies.

It's no surprise he'll be speaking from a balcony rather than inside the embassy.  He likely wants to be heckled as it plays into his martyred-messiah complex.

Dude, you're just being silly.  Have you no sense of theater?  It is an amazing bit of luck for someone like him to have any platform to speak at all, and no doubt he'll disappear soon.  Of course he's going to make the most of it.  'Assange from the balcony' will be remembered long after nobody knows where he is.

Nah, we'll know where he will be.  The Ecuadorian embassy.  He ain't leaving there for years to come now.


Title: Re: Assange update...
Post by: opebo on August 19, 2012, 12:29:55 PM
Nah, we'll know where he will be.  The Ecuadorian embassy.  He ain't leaving there for years to come now.

Really?  I don't know the history of such cases, but is there a history of people managing to stay in such places for years on end?  The embassy there is I hear rather small, and after all the US may overthrow Rafael Correa at any moment.  I doubt he's prospects there are truly long-term.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Free Palestine on August 19, 2012, 04:36:10 PM
If Assange were sent to the US by Sweden (which is less likely than from the UK), I somehow doubt he'd be executed - a lot of people did even more damage than he did and only got life sentences.

Still, him being thrown in jail for life would be horrible.


Title: Re: Assange update...
Post by: Mr. Morden on August 19, 2012, 05:22:34 PM
Nah, we'll know where he will be.  The Ecuadorian embassy.  He ain't leaving there for years to come now.

Really?  I don't know the history of such cases, but is there a history of people managing to stay in such places for years on end?  The embassy there is I hear rather small, and after all the US may overthrow Rafael Correa at any moment.  I doubt he's prospects there are truly long-term.

The most extreme case I know of was a Catholic priest in Hungary who spoke out against communism during the Cold War, and then ended up hiding out in the US embassy for 15 years(!).


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on August 19, 2012, 05:24:05 PM
I have far more an issue with Bradley Manning then with Assange... Assange is a rogue, Manning is a traitor....


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 19, 2012, 05:58:33 PM
If Assange were sent to the US by Sweden (which is less likely than from the UK), I somehow doubt he'd be executed - a lot of people did even more damage than he did and only got life sentences.

Still, him being thrown in jail for life would be horrible.

Not so much, considering the whole 'fled rape charges' thing.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Free Palestine on August 19, 2012, 06:02:39 PM
I have far more an issue with Bradley Manning then with Assange... Assange is a rogue, Manning is a traitor....

Truth is treason in the empire of lies.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on August 19, 2012, 06:27:07 PM
What a pathetic little man; pressure needs to be applied to Ecuador quickly to force them to hand over this disgusting piece of slime.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: © tweed on August 19, 2012, 06:35:50 PM
it's great to see that for the first time since the fall of the USSR we have a functioning counter-power bloc in world geopolitics, no matter how weak or flimsy it may be.  viva Castro, viva Chavez, viva Correa, viva Morales.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Free Palestine on August 19, 2012, 06:37:33 PM
it's great to see that for the first time since the fall of the USSR we have a functioning counter-power bloc in world geopolitics, no matter how weak or flimsy it may be.  viva Castro, viva Chavez, viva Correa, viva Morales.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 19, 2012, 06:48:58 PM
That actually is in some ways a quite good thing, but it still pisses me off in this particular case.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Frodo on August 19, 2012, 07:21:05 PM
it's great to see that for the first time since the fall of the USSR we have a functioning counter-power bloc in world geopolitics, no matter how weak or flimsy it may be.  viva Castro, viva Chavez, viva Correa, viva Morales.

Both the Castro brothers as well as Hugo Chavez already have one foot in the grave, so this 'counterpower bloc' as you call it won't last long. 


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: LastVoter on August 19, 2012, 09:08:59 PM
it's great to see that for the first time since the fall of the USSR we have a functioning counter-power bloc in world geopolitics, no matter how weak or flimsy it may be.  viva Castro, viva Chavez, viva Correa, viva Morales.

Both the Castro brothers as well as Hugo Chavez already have one foot in the grave, so this 'counterpower bloc' as you call it won't last long. 
Venezuela will elect a new and improved anti-american FF if the elections are free and fair.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Lief 🗽 on August 19, 2012, 09:50:49 PM
it's great to see that for the first time since the fall of the USSR we have a functioning counter-power bloc in world geopolitics, no matter how weak or flimsy it may be.  viva Castro, viva Chavez, viva Correa, viva Morales.

Yup, exactly. And the fact that they so viscerally anger the usual suspects means they must be doing something right.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: 2952-0-0 on August 19, 2012, 10:34:50 PM
What a pathetic little man; pressure needs to be applied to Ecuador quickly to force them to hand over this disgusting piece of slime.

Is the same thing true every time a Russian or Chinese dissident flees to a foreign embassy, or does the west get to pick or choose when to follow international laws?

Britain's threat to storm the embassy means it's no longer about Assange or Wikileaks or so-called "sex crimes" in Sweden. It's a contravention of international law and puts Britain on the same level of Iran or Khmer Rouge Cambodia.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: dead0man on August 19, 2012, 10:40:28 PM
I like how the usual suspects have been claiming he will disappear soon for the past 2+ years.  You people have a weird definition for "soon".


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on August 19, 2012, 10:41:18 PM
There's a big difference between a dissident fleeing an oppressive country and this terrorist.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Lief 🗽 on August 19, 2012, 10:42:02 PM
Well obviously it'll be much more difficult to disappear the man while he's under the protection of governments that actually respect international law. How long that protection will last is the question.

There's a big difference between a dissident fleeing an oppressive country and this terrorist.

lol joke poster


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Free Palestine on August 19, 2012, 11:16:24 PM
There's a big difference between a dissident fleeing an oppressive country and this terrorist.

Lolno


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: 2952-0-0 on August 19, 2012, 11:41:45 PM
Whatever one thinks of Assange and his actions, he and Ecuador have won a huge PR coup. Unasur (which by the way includes right-wing governments) has issued a statement that any attack on the embassy will be seen as hostile.

And if I were the CEO of BP I'd be sh**tting bricks over this affair. If the embassy is attacked it would be a perfectly legal justification for Correa to seize my assets in Ecuador. I'd be angrily calling Number 10 to demand Cameron to cool down.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on August 20, 2012, 12:38:47 AM
What a pathetic little man; pressure needs to be applied to Ecuador quickly to force them to hand over this disgusting piece of slime.

Have you thought through the implications of this?


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on August 20, 2012, 12:50:00 AM
Yes, I have.  Ecuador cannot hide behind international agreements in order to shelter a criminal wanted for serious crimes in multiple countries.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Joe Republic on August 20, 2012, 02:08:26 AM
http://onion.com/NG1yZh


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: 2952-0-0 on August 20, 2012, 02:25:32 AM
Yes, I have.  Ecuador cannot hide behind international agreements in order to shelter a criminal wanted for serious crimes in multiple countries.

But can the US and Britain hide behind similar agreements in order to shelter those accused of treason and subverting the state in countries like, say, Russia, Iran, China, etc?

This is so reminiscent of doublethink, where people are both aware of a lie yet also believe it because it's in the state's interest.

No, the West (TM) cannot with a straight face claim the right to shelter dissidents in the embassies in Russia, China, Iran, or X-istan, and then claim their sovereignty is violated when someone who hasn't even been charged with anything runs into an embassy of a country whose government they don't really like. This is not the 19th century where Britain and the US can openly trample on international laws to fit their selfish interests. The West is no longer dominant.

Get used to it.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Free Palestine on August 20, 2012, 02:37:42 AM
Yes, I have.  Ecuador cannot hide behind international agreements in order to shelter a criminal wanted for serious crimes in multiple countries.

But can the US and Britain hide behind similar agreements in order to shelter those accused of treason and subverting the state in countries like, say, Russia, Iran, China, etc?

This is so reminiscent of doublethink, where people are both aware of a lie yet also believe it because it's in the state's interest.

No, the West (TM) cannot with a straight face claim the right to shelter dissidents in the embassies in Russia, China, Iran, or X-istan, and then claim their sovereignty is violated when someone who hasn't even been charged with anything runs into an embassy of a country whose government they don't really like. This is not the 19th century where Britain and the US can openly trample on international laws to fit their selfish interests. The West is no longer dominant.

Get used to it.

Herp because locking people up for subverting the government is okay in a liberal democracy.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 20, 2012, 02:50:46 AM
Yes, I have.  Ecuador cannot hide behind international agreements in order to shelter a criminal wanted for serious crimes in multiple countries.

But can the US and Britain hide behind similar agreements in order to shelter those accused of treason and subverting the state in countries like, say, Russia, Iran, China, etc?

This is so reminiscent of doublethink, where people are both aware of a lie yet also believe it because it's in the state's interest.

No, the West (TM) cannot with a straight face claim the right to shelter dissidents in the embassies in Russia, China, Iran, or X-istan, and then claim their sovereignty is violated when someone who hasn't even been charged with anything runs into an embassy of a country whose government they don't really like. This is not the 19th century where Britain and the US can openly trample on international laws to fit their selfish interests. The West is no longer dominant.

Get used to it.

Herp because locking people up for subverting the government is okay in a liberal democracy.

If he was right to be so ungodly afraid of extradition to the United States, why on Earth weren't extradition proceedings going on while he was in Britain?


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Free Palestine on August 20, 2012, 02:58:42 AM
What's bizarre about the way so many patriots left and right call for Manning and Assange's heads on a platter, is that the founders of the United States were eligible for the same sorts of things, as were the leaders of the Libyan revolution, and the participants in the various Latin American revolutions against the Spanish, and the French Revolution.

"Treason" in all these cases is nothing more than a tool by the government to defend it's own interests, and take advantage of those who follow said government.  And in every historical case, the ancien regime's cries of treason and sedition are now seen as reactionary bull[Inks] -- as will the modern-day calls for Manning and Assange to be executed, or thrown in prison for life.  Assuming of course that America becomes enlightened.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 20, 2012, 03:13:49 AM
Assange hasn't been charged with any political crimes.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Free Palestine on August 20, 2012, 03:17:58 AM
Assange hasn't been charged with any political crimes.

I know, but there's plenty of people who want him to be charged with such "crimes."


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on August 20, 2012, 05:25:09 AM

At the very least, and no matter what people think about the Wikileaks project, Assange in general or how this whole farrago has been handled, can people please desist from trivialising rape in this manner? I realise that this forum (being, as it is, part of the internet) has an extremely strong misogynistic undercurrent and that, as such, this post is a waste of time, but all the same it isn't actually hard to avoid being an absolute [inks] on the subject.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 20, 2012, 05:28:54 AM
Assange hasn't been charged with any political crimes.

I know, but there's plenty of people who want him to be charged with such "crimes."

And if he genuinely had to be all that worried about extradition he would have been extradited straight from Britain as it is.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on August 20, 2012, 05:30:49 AM
I mean, you're all quick enough to denounce a Republican candidate for Senate whenever one of them does it (it seems to happen at least once every election), so you must understand on some level that it's wrong, right? It isn't even necessary to make most of the points made on this thread and others like it...


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on August 20, 2012, 06:45:28 AM
The most extreme case I know of was a Catholic priest in Hungary who spoke out against communism during the Cold War, and then ended up hiding out in the US embassy for 15 years(!).

Perfect example, and thank you for educating me.

At the very least, and no matter what people think about the Wikileaks project, Assange in general or how this whole farrago has been handled, can people please desist from trivialising rape in this manner? I realise that this forum (being, as it is, part of the internet) has an extremely strong misogynistic undercurrent and that, as such, this post is a waste of time, but all the same it isn't actually hard to avoid being an absolute [inks] on the subject.

Of course it isn't my place to do so (anymore), but can we agree that what is for you 'trivializing' an issue may be simply a matter of real political disagreement for others?  After all we could throw out the word 'trivializing' about any issue with which we disagreed with others in order to dismiss their position as inappropriate or disallowed.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Gustaf on August 20, 2012, 06:47:45 AM
it's great to see that for the first time since the fall of the USSR we have a functioning counter-power bloc in world geopolitics, no matter how weak or flimsy it may be.  viva Castro, viva Chavez, viva Correa, viva Morales.

Yup, exactly. And the fact that they so viscerally anger the usual suspects means they must be doing something right.

You really are a bunch of disgusting people.

EternalCynic, what makes a sex crime a so-called crime in your book? Please elaborate.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 20, 2012, 07:22:00 AM
The most extreme case I know of was a Catholic priest in Hungary who spoke out against communism during the Cold War, and then ended up hiding out in the US embassy for 15 years(!).

Perfect example, and thank you for educating me.

Cardinal Mindszenty was an interesting guy. Definitely a more worthy cause than that of our present coward, who entirely incidentally I just found out has apparently seen fit to trademark his name at some point.

At the very least, and no matter what people think about the Wikileaks project, Assange in general or how this whole farrago has been handled, can people please desist from trivialising rape in this manner? I realise that this forum (being, as it is, part of the internet) has an extremely strong misogynistic undercurrent and that, as such, this post is a waste of time, but all the same it isn't actually hard to avoid being an absolute [inks] on the subject.

Of course it isn't my place to do so (anymore), but can we agree that what is for you 'trivializing' an issue may be simply a matter of real political disagreement for others?  After all we could throw out the word 'trivializing' about any issue with which we disagreed with others in order to dismiss their position as inappropriate or disallowed.

It's my strongly held political, religious, moral, and personal belief that whether or not rape is to be taken seriously and held in severe disapprobation is not a question that should be opened (or reopened) for political discussion.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on August 20, 2012, 10:59:07 AM
Cardinal Mindszenty was an interesting guy. Definitely a more worthy cause than that of our present coward

I consider it just the opposite - Mindszenty was a very dubious character.  However, just because I dislike everything he stands for doesn't mean I can't admit that he is a heroic chap.  Why can't you admit the same here.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Silent Hunter on August 20, 2012, 11:03:22 AM
Today's the day for ignorant and offensive comments on rape. (http://www.itv.com/news/2012-08-20/outrage-at-george-galloway-comments-on-julian-assange-rape-allegations/)


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on August 20, 2012, 11:06:26 AM
An article over at the Staggers looking at some of the myths that have sprung up around the legal aspect of things. (http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david-allen-green/2012/08/legal-myths-about-assange-extradition)

Interesting piece about the divisions within the Occupy movement over the farrago. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/aug/20/occupy-london-dilemma-julian-assange)


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: © tweed on August 20, 2012, 11:32:55 AM

You really are a bunch of disgusting people. 

Moderators are allowed to say such things?


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Gustaf on August 20, 2012, 11:40:47 AM

You really are a bunch of disgusting people. 

Moderators are allowed to say such things?

It's a moral imperative to speak out against certain things even if there is a punishment connected to it. Like, I'm fighting the system, dude. Totally.

Report it if you want.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on August 20, 2012, 11:45:04 AM

You really are a bunch of disgusting people. 

Moderators are allowed to say such things?

It's a moral imperative to speak out against certain things even if there is a punishment connected to it. Like, I'm fighting the system, dude. Totally.

Report it if you want.

Your comments are appropriate in my view, though I disagree with them.....and it's hardly a person attack on one person.  I'm a huge fan of calling those constantly report posts pussies, and I stand by it :)


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: © tweed on August 20, 2012, 11:59:35 AM

You really are a bunch of disgusting people.  

Moderators are allowed to say such things?

It's a moral imperative to speak out against certain things even if there is a punishment connected to it. Like, I'm fighting the system, dude. Totally.

Report it if you want.

and I have a similar moral imperative not to report posts, as to limit the power held by people like you -- unless for theatre or jest.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on August 20, 2012, 01:27:09 PM
Well the real point is that everyone else is inhibited from saying such things - thus the two-tier speech here.  You have odd conversations where one person is telling everyone they disgust him or that they're an idiot, and on the other side poor b******s who can't say a darn thing they think (such as moi).


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Gustaf on August 20, 2012, 02:07:25 PM
What I said is backed by analysis and reflects my disagreement with that type of person. Insults hurled at people who are racists, etc is quite commonplace here.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: MaxQue on August 20, 2012, 02:22:46 PM
Again, I still think than given there is no legal procedures against him in Sweden and than the investigators only want to talk to him, the best idea is to the Sweden investigators to go in London.
That would alleviate the concerns of everyone there.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on August 20, 2012, 02:24:44 PM

You really are a bunch of disgusting people.  

Moderators are allowed to say such things?

It's a moral imperative to speak out against certain things even if there is a punishment connected to it. Like, I'm fighting the system, dude. Totally.

Report it if you want.

and I have a similar moral imperative not to report posts, as to limit the power held by people like you -- unless for theatre or jest.

Well I reported it.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: 2952-0-0 on August 20, 2012, 02:47:58 PM
You really are a bunch of disgusting people.

EternalCynic, what makes a sex crime a so-called crime in your book? Please elaborate.

The first Swedish prosecutor who considered the charge withdrew it, claiming it had no chance of success.

Only after the US cables started emerging did a previously dismissed accusation magically reappear. The most recent documents do indicate that the US is trying to get Assange to face trial over something that he, as a non-US citizen, can't be tried for. The fact that Sweden is zealously pursuing Assange when a Serb accused of murder in Sweden isn't being pursued as zealously (you know, since murder is more important than consensual sex without a condom) makes any notion that there's a black hand behind this, credible. Assange has repeatedly stated he's happy to go to Sweden if Sweden can guarantee he won't be extradited to any third country.

And besides, suave authoritarian regimes don't accuse their dissidents of treason or subverting the state. They accuse them of tax evasion, rape, bylaw infringement, and so on. The real disgusting people are those who try to manipulate the public's concern for women in order to attain a sinister goal, not those who call their BS.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 20, 2012, 03:39:20 PM
Again, I still think than given there is no legal procedures against him in Sweden and than the investigators only want to talk to him, the best idea is to the Sweden investigators to go in London.
That would alleviate the concerns of everyone there.

This is incorrect. He's wanted so he can be indicted for rape.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: © tweed on August 20, 2012, 04:52:22 PM
also the Swedish prosecutor has refused to interview him in the UK or in the Ecuadorian embassy despite having done so in previous cases.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: MaxQue on August 20, 2012, 05:43:32 PM
Again, I still think than given there is no legal procedures against him in Sweden and than the investigators only want to talk to him, the best idea is to the Sweden investigators to go in London.
That would alleviate the concerns of everyone there.

This is incorrect. He's wanted so he can be indicted for rape.

Well, why don't indict him right now? They don't need him on the national territory to indict him.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Mr. Morden on August 20, 2012, 06:30:20 PM

You really are a bunch of disgusting people.  

Moderators are allowed to say such things?

It's a moral imperative to speak out against certain things even if there is a punishment connected to it. Like, I'm fighting the system, dude. Totally.

Report it if you want.

and I have a similar moral imperative not to report posts, as to limit the power held by people like you -- unless for theatre or jest.

Well I reported it.

I thought you no longer reported anybody because you'd decided to turn the other cheek like JC?


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on August 20, 2012, 07:30:52 PM

You really are a bunch of disgusting people.  

Moderators are allowed to say such things?

It's a moral imperative to speak out against certain things even if there is a punishment connected to it. Like, I'm fighting the system, dude. Totally.

Report it if you want.

and I have a similar moral imperative not to report posts, as to limit the power held by people like you -- unless for theatre or jest.

Well I reported it.

I thought you no longer reported anybody because you'd decided to turn the other cheek like JC?

Yeah but like all flawed humans I have relapses.

Quote from: Romans 3:23
for all have sinned  and fall short of the glory of God


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 20, 2012, 09:36:07 PM
Again, I still think than given there is no legal procedures against him in Sweden and than the investigators only want to talk to him, the best idea is to the Sweden investigators to go in London.
That would alleviate the concerns of everyone there.

This is incorrect. He's wanted so he can be indicted for rape.

Well, why don't indict him right now? They don't need him on the national territory to indict him.

They need him on national territory to arrest him. They can't have an indictment hearing/arraignment/whatever they're calling it in Sweden without arresting him. Why the British didn't have the authority to pack him back off to Sweden I have no idea.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: MaxQue on August 20, 2012, 10:00:28 PM
Again, I still think than given there is no legal procedures against him in Sweden and than the investigators only want to talk to him, the best idea is to the Sweden investigators to go in London.
That would alleviate the concerns of everyone there.

This is incorrect. He's wanted so he can be indicted for rape.

Well, why don't indict him right now? They don't need him on the national territory to indict him.

They need him on national territory to arrest him. They can't have an indictment hearing/arraignment/whatever they're calling it in Sweden without arresting him. Why the British didn't have the authority to pack him back off to Sweden I have no idea.

They had the authority of extrading him, but, he had the right to contest the extradition in front of courts, to delay it.
And, now, he is in an embassy, and entering it would violate international conventions and cause a diplomatic incident.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 20, 2012, 10:10:21 PM
Again, I still think than given there is no legal procedures against him in Sweden and than the investigators only want to talk to him, the best idea is to the Sweden investigators to go in London.
That would alleviate the concerns of everyone there.

This is incorrect. He's wanted so he can be indicted for rape.

Well, why don't indict him right now? They don't need him on the national territory to indict him.

They need him on national territory to arrest him. They can't have an indictment hearing/arraignment/whatever they're calling it in Sweden without arresting him. Why the British didn't have the authority to pack him back off to Sweden I have no idea.

They had the authority of extrading him, but, he had the right to contest the extradition in front of courts, to delay it.
And, now, he is in an embassy, and entering it would violate international conventions and cause a diplomatic incident.

Well that explains the 'how', certainly.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: bgwah on August 20, 2012, 10:56:07 PM

You really are a bunch of disgusting people. 

Moderators are allowed to say such things?

It's a moral imperative to speak out against certain things even if there is a punishment connected to it. Like, I'm fighting the system, dude. Totally.

Report it if you want.

I feel the same way about neo-Confederates.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 20, 2012, 11:10:28 PM
I don't usually agree with Gustaf, but when I do, it's on issues like this. Quite a few of us here are acting like craven idiots.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Marokai Backbeat on August 21, 2012, 02:24:21 AM
I feel like a weird, self-contradictory pansy, when I say that I agree with both Eternal Cynic and Gustaf/Al/Nathan. Rape is completely awful and it shouldn't be trivialized and misogyny is completely gross around here; yet it's also fairly obvious he's being pursued so stringently for clearly political reasons and that it simply pisses some people off when nations the West doesn't like do things the West constantly do.

So there, I posted to say that I agree with everybody except Tweed and Opebo. That contributes nothing and yet I wanted to post it anyway.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 21, 2012, 02:34:40 AM
Oh, I very strongly want somebody who is less of a sleazebag to take up Assange's mantle and keep on keeping on! It's him specifically where lieth the rot in this case.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Silent Hunter on August 21, 2012, 04:40:52 AM
They had the authority of extrading him, but, he had the right to contest the extradition in front of courts, to delay it.
And, now, he is in an embassy, and entering it would violate international conventions and cause a diplomatic incident.

He'd been appealing the extradition and the British Supreme Court turned down his appeal. They gave him a two-week grace period to get his affairs in order or make an appeal to the European Court of Human Rights (IIRC), while he was still on bail.

He jumped that bail and went into the Embassy.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on August 21, 2012, 07:35:31 AM
Kind of amusing to see several of the legal myths thrown around by Assange's defence team repeated here immediately after I posted a piece that, basically, tears them to shreds.

Here it is again, for anyone that's interested. (http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david-allen-green/2012/08/legal-myths-about-assange-extradition)


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on August 21, 2012, 07:37:52 AM
More delightful behavior. (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/08/21/craig-murray-names-assange-rape-victim-newsnight_n_1815200.html?utm_hp_ref=uk)


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on August 21, 2012, 07:48:32 AM
Also of note, the latest YouGov poll included a couple of Assange related questions. Perhaps unsurprisingly, a large gender gap can be observed. (http://yougov.co.uk/news/2012/08/20/assange-women-oppose/)


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 21, 2012, 08:04:59 AM
Not at all surprised that such Lib Dem partisans as remain in Britain would take a certain tack on this issue.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on August 21, 2012, 10:06:10 AM
Also of note, the latest YouGov poll included a couple of Assange related questions. Perhaps unsurprisingly, a large gender gap can be observed. (http://yougov.co.uk/news/2012/08/20/assange-women-oppose/)

They can't see the bigger issue, apparently.  Or perhaps they just don't like him because he is weedy-looking

I agree with everybody except Tweed and Opebo.

Moderate hero.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 21, 2012, 05:22:21 PM
Also of note, the latest YouGov poll included a couple of Assange related questions. Perhaps unsurprisingly, a large gender gap can be observed. (http://yougov.co.uk/news/2012/08/20/assange-women-oppose/)

They can't see the bigger issue, apparently.  Or perhaps they just don't like him because he is weedy-looking

Or perhaps to them rape charges are a bigger issue than the putative wellbeing of one particular individual who has delusions of grandeur about his having pissed off the US government.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Insula Dei on August 21, 2012, 05:29:46 PM
Well Julian Assange doesn't imagine the US government doesn't really like him, you know, hardly anything delusional about that.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Nhoj on August 21, 2012, 05:36:04 PM
Well Julian Assange doesn't imagine the US government doesn't really like him, you know, hardly anything delusional about that.
There is however plenty of delusion in the idea that he would face the death penalty if he were to be extradited to the US.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on August 21, 2012, 05:39:20 PM
Or perhaps to them rape charges are a bigger issue than the putative wellbeing of one particular individual who has delusions of grandeur about his having pissed off the US government.

Yeah, as I said, different priorities.  They, like you, can't see the bigger picture.



Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 21, 2012, 05:42:23 PM
Or perhaps to them rape charges are a bigger issue than the putative wellbeing of one particular individual who has delusions of grandeur about his having pissed off the US government.

Yeah, as I said, different priorities.  They, like you, can't see the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is the fact that we've got people supporting a sleazy sex addict's attempts to flee Swedish justice, of all justices, because they like (their perceptions of) his political beliefs.

Well Julian Assange doesn't imagine the US government doesn't really like him, you know, hardly anything delusional about that.

I would submit that he imagines that they care as exceedingly much about him as he does.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Stranger in a strange land on August 21, 2012, 06:00:33 PM
Well Julian Assange doesn't imagine the US government doesn't really like him, you know, hardly anything delusional about that.
There is however plenty of delusion in the idea that he would face the death penalty if he were to be extradited to the US.
And even more of a delusion in the idea that he'll end up in Guantanamo.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Gustaf on August 21, 2012, 06:09:15 PM

You really are a bunch of disgusting people. 

Moderators are allowed to say such things?

It's a moral imperative to speak out against certain things even if there is a punishment connected to it. Like, I'm fighting the system, dude. Totally.

Report it if you want.

I feel the same way about neo-Confederates.

Heh, you're one to hold a grudge. There's a nasty personal vendetta streak in you, where you go to great lengths to smear specific individuals. I was making a general comment and don't care that much about Lief and Tweed's nasty little hypocrisy.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: © tweed on August 21, 2012, 06:14:20 PM
I was making a general comment and don't care that much about Lief and Tweed's nasty little hypocrisy.

I am the most morally consistent poster on this forum.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Gustaf on August 21, 2012, 06:29:32 PM
I was making a general comment and don't care that much about Lief and Tweed's nasty little hypocrisy.

I am the most morally consistent poster on this forum.

You want to enjoy Western freedoms while other people suffer for the sake of "political balance". It's one of the most disgusting notions out there.

Then again, I'm sure you're aware that your personality and ideology is a sad sham so I won't press the point.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on August 21, 2012, 06:32:08 PM
He does like his Cold War nostalgia.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: © tweed on August 21, 2012, 06:40:58 PM
I was making a general comment and don't care that much about Lief and Tweed's nasty little hypocrisy.

I am the most morally consistent poster on this forum.

You want to enjoy Western freedoms while other people suffer for the sake of "political balance". It's one of the most disgusting notions out there.

I enjoy Western privilege because I was born white and into relatively significant wealth (thanks to the unionization drives of the 20th Century, fought tooth and nail by the ruling class that you'd have supported and are not part of the official Western Freedoms narrative that you're spewing - my grandfather a railroad worker, both parents schoolteachers/employees).  such privilieges simply do not exist for a majority of the population here -- consider, the median black household net worth is $2200!  and 1/5 of all US households have zero or negative net worth.

I don't support balance for its own sake in some neo-realist sense, but because I prefer the other side of the coin.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Mr. Morden on August 21, 2012, 06:56:19 PM
Or perhaps to them rape charges are a bigger issue than the putative wellbeing of one particular individual who has delusions of grandeur about his having pissed off the US government.

Yeah, as I said, different priorities.  They, like you, can't see the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is the fact that we've got people supporting a sleazy sex addict's attempts to flee Swedish justice, of all justices, because they like (their perceptions of) his political beliefs.

I think that's unfair to opebo.  He would probably support Assange's attempts to flee rape charges even if he didn't like his political beliefs.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 21, 2012, 10:09:36 PM
Or perhaps to them rape charges are a bigger issue than the putative wellbeing of one particular individual who has delusions of grandeur about his having pissed off the US government.

Yeah, as I said, different priorities.  They, like you, can't see the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is the fact that we've got people supporting a sleazy sex addict's attempts to flee Swedish justice, of all justices, because they like (their perceptions of) his political beliefs.

I think that's unfair to opebo.  He would probably support Assange's attempts to flee rape charges even if he didn't like his political beliefs.


I don't think even opebo would consider himself, individually, to constitute 'the bigger picture'.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on August 21, 2012, 11:55:37 PM
I feel like a weird, self-contradictory pansy, when I say that I agree with both Eternal Cynic and Gustaf/Al/Nathan. Rape is completely awful and it shouldn't be trivialized and misogyny is completely gross around here; yet it's also fairly obvious he's being pursued so stringently for clearly political reasons and that it simply pisses some people off when nations the West doesn't like do things the West constantly do.

So there, I posted to say that I agree with everybody except Tweed and Opebo. That contributes nothing and yet I wanted to post it anyway.

You are not the only one feeling this way.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: ZuWo on August 22, 2012, 07:36:05 AM
What puzzles me is the prevailing attitude of some people here on the forum and other supporters of Assange that accusations of rape don't need to be cleared up if the accused person is one of the "good guys". This is a concept of law that I don't quite understand.

Moreover, Sweden isn't a banana republic. There are good reasons to believe that the Swedish legal system would handle this case in an independent and fair way.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 22, 2012, 08:21:15 AM
Moreover, Sweden isn't a banana republic. There are good reasons to believe that the Swedish legal system would handle this case in an independent and fair way.

Yeah, it's not like Sweden is Ecuador or something.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: © tweed on August 22, 2012, 09:16:14 AM
Naomi Wolf has been very much an FF on this issue.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/11/17/naomi-wolf-slams-feminists-reponse-to-the-assange-rape-prosecution/


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 22, 2012, 10:12:47 AM



'Overgeneralization abounds as she attempts to apply the microcosmic events of this mostly white, middle-class, liberal milieu to a whole generation....There is a desperate defensiveness in the tone of this book which diminishes the force of her argument.'--The Library Journal, on Promiscuities.

In an earlier holding-forth on the Assange case Wolf said that it's incumbent upon the woman to explicitly say no and that if she doesn't she's not to be 'treat[ed] as [a] moral adult'. Reading the article in question I see that she's doubled down on having turned rape apologist in the interests of supporting the snivelling narcissism of this Okubata Keisaburo-like figure (a self-described market libertarian, I might point out--among other things). Color me unsurprised.

___________

Okay, I'm just going to say this now, so we're clear: Rape is a bigger problem than anything that Julian Assange, uniquely, could possibly be in any position to fight.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Gustaf on August 22, 2012, 10:26:18 AM
I was making a general comment and don't care that much about Lief and Tweed's nasty little hypocrisy.

I am the most morally consistent poster on this forum.

You want to enjoy Western freedoms while other people suffer for the sake of "political balance". It's one of the most disgusting notions out there.

I enjoy Western privilege because I was born white and into relatively significant wealth (thanks to the unionization drives of the 20th Century, fought tooth and nail by the ruling class that you'd have supported and are not part of the official Western Freedoms narrative that you're spewing - my grandfather a railroad worker, both parents schoolteachers/employees).  such privilieges simply do not exist for a majority of the population here -- consider, the median black household net worth is $2200!  and 1/5 of all US households have zero or negative net worth.

I don't support balance for its own sake in some neo-realist sense, but because I prefer the other side of the coin.

I don't oppose unions, nor do I generally support the ruling classes. I just understand the world better than you do when it comes to what policies benefit the poor.

I understand you were born the way you are. But what prevents you from moving to one of the socialist paradises on Earth? I'm sure they'd be delighted to have you and I'm sure you would have no problem being a lackey to a proper dictator.

It'd also help your rebellious message, since most of their people want to move here. It'd be very alternative to not just support oppression and misery in theory (for other people) but actually for yourself. 


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Gustaf on August 22, 2012, 10:28:07 AM



'Overgeneralization abounds as she attempts to apply the microcosmic events of this mostly white, middle-class, liberal milieu to a whole generation....There is a desperate defensiveness in the tone of this book which diminishes the force of her argument.'--The Library Journal, on Promiscuities.

In an earlier holding-forth on the Assange case Wolf said that it's incumbent upon the woman to explicitly say no and that if she doesn't she's not to be 'treat[ed] as [a] moral adult'. Reading the article in question I see that she's turned rape apologist in the interests of supporting the snivelling narcissism of a self-described market libertarian. Color me unsurprised.

___________

Okay, I'm just going to say this now, so we're clear: Rape is a bigger problem than anything that Julian Assange, uniquely, could possibly be in any position to fight.

Nathan, you missed the memo. Rape is not the problem, it's the solution.

What could be a more important battle for the left than the fight for the privilege of the rich white man to have his pick of common women?


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on August 22, 2012, 11:01:07 AM
...we've got people supporting a sleazy sex addict's attempts to flee Swedish justice

Where do you get that sex addict stuff?  You mean because he apparently had sex?

I think that's unfair to opebo.  He would probably support Assange's attempts to flee rape charges even if he didn't like his political beliefs.

You are precisely correct Mr. Mordant and I both compliment and thank you for it.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 22, 2012, 11:04:35 AM
...we've got people supporting a sleazy sex addict's attempts to flee Swedish justice

Where do you get that sex addict stuff?  You mean because he apparently had sex?

Repeatedly, and with various people, and to the extent that he ended up in this situation, yes. Regardless of whether or not this constitutes an addiction, it's incredibly sleazy.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on August 22, 2012, 11:08:05 AM
Where do you get that sex addict stuff?  You mean because he apparently had sex?

Repeatedly, and with various people, and to the extent that he ended up in this situation, yes. Regardless of whether or not this constitutes an addiction, it's incredibly sleazy.

Seriously?  You think that having sex repeatedly in ones life, and with several people over a period of time is 'sleazy'?  You do realize that this is the norm for human beings, right?


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Silent Hunter on August 22, 2012, 11:23:09 AM
Please lock this thread.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: © tweed on August 22, 2012, 11:23:20 AM

I understand you were born the way you are. But what prevents you from moving to one of the socialist paradises on Earth? I'm sure they'd be delighted to have you and I'm sure you would have no problem being a lackey to a proper dictator.

It'd also help your rebellious message, since most of their people want to move here. It'd be very alternative to not just support oppression and misery in theory (for other people) but actually for yourself. 

this inane point has been brought up multiple times, so I'll address it -- the fact as I see it is I am more able to change the course (or destroy the breadth) of US power from within than I would be from without.  this is my motivation and I seek broadly to make my living out of doing so -- in the tradition of Kunstler, Ramsay Clark, etc.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on August 22, 2012, 11:25:02 AM
What puzzles me is the prevailing attitude of some people here on the forum and other supporters of Assange that accusations of rape don't need to be cleared up if the accused person is one of the "good guys". This is a concept of law that I don't quite understand.

That's not accurate, ZuWo - you are straw manning.  

...the snivelling narcissism of this Okubata Keisaburo-like figure

I'm really intrigued by this Okubata Keisaburo character you have often mentioned, and I would love to know more.  But, alas, he or she is hardly to be found through a google search.  Could you help me?  Perhaps a lengthy and detailed post explaining this reference and/or some links to translatable Japanese sources on the subject?


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: © tweed on August 22, 2012, 11:25:26 AM
nor do I generally support the ruling classes.

...and this here is the goof of all time.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: © tweed on August 22, 2012, 11:27:20 AM

not at all -- the passions arising in this thread are due to how this case is such a strong articulation of the gulf between the 'respectable' center-left and the actual left.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 22, 2012, 11:57:06 AM
Where do you get that sex addict stuff?  You mean because he apparently had sex?

Repeatedly, and with various people, and to the extent that he ended up in this situation, yes. Regardless of whether or not this constitutes an addiction, it's incredibly sleazy.

Seriously?  You think that having sex repeatedly in ones life, and with several people over a period of time is 'sleazy'?  You do realize that this is the norm for human beings, right?

It's all relative, but after a certain point, yeah. Keep in mind I'm entirely aware that my thoughts on the subject aren't at all 'normal'.


...the snivelling narcissism of this Okubata Keisaburo-like figure

I'm really intrigued by this Okubata Keisaburo character you have often mentioned, and I would love to know more.  But, alas, he or she is hardly to be found through a google search.  Could you help me?  Perhaps a lengthy and detailed post explaining this reference and/or some links to translatable Japanese sources on the subject?

He's a character in Sasameyuki by Tanizaki Jun'ichirō (Keisaburo should be Keisaburō, sorry). Sasameyuki, which is available in English translation as The Makioka Sisters (でも、日本文学ですから、英語より日本語の方がいいですわ、ねえ、オペボちゃん?), is my favorite novel and I think you'd like parts of it a lot, though for different reasons than why I like it. I'd definitely recommend it to you. Okubata's a secondary character (a boyfriend, of sorts, of one of the main characters, Makioka Taeko) who's chiefly notable for worming his way out of most positions of actual responsibility even though he has at least a high enough opinion of himself not to do anything outright degrading (other than mooching. He does a bit of mooching). I feel that this is relevant to your sensibilities and core values and you might like the character quite a bit even if you don't have strong feelings about my favorites, Makioka Sachiko and Makioka Yukiko.

It would be hard for me to say more about Sasameyuki without you having actually read it, or, failing that, seen the 1983 movie adaptation, which is the most competent treatment on film to date (although given the novel's length I maintain that it would make a better self-contained television series). It's still far preferable to have read the book for an understanding of Okubata's character, as well as that of his more tragic counterpart in Taeko's life, Itakura.

I also think that you might appreciate that Okubata is not in fact the most unsympathetic male character in the novel, that 'honor' instead going to Makioka Tsuruko's profoundly boring, conventional, and at times pointlessly spiteful husband.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Gustaf on August 22, 2012, 06:07:12 PM

I understand you were born the way you are. But what prevents you from moving to one of the socialist paradises on Earth? I'm sure they'd be delighted to have you and I'm sure you would have no problem being a lackey to a proper dictator.

It'd also help your rebellious message, since most of their people want to move here. It'd be very alternative to not just support oppression and misery in theory (for other people) but actually for yourself. 

this inane point has been brought up multiple times, so I'll address it -- the fact as I see it is I am more able to change the course (or destroy the breadth) of US power from within than I would be from without.  this is my motivation and I seek broadly to make my living out of doing so -- in the tradition of Kunstler, Ramsay Clark, etc.

Lol. How convenient for you. I'll extend you the same respect that I expect you extend to really rich people who support low taxes, not because they benefit from it, but because it is best for society.

Now, the society I support has led to the best standard of living ever seen in human history for poor people. Your preferred society (the USSR) was one of mass starvation and genocide. But all your beloved countries (Belarus, Venezuela, North Korea and so on) have ruling classes that live in splendour.

So, please, prove your point. If you can.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: © tweed on August 22, 2012, 07:02:10 PM

I understand you were born the way you are. But what prevents you from moving to one of the socialist paradises on Earth? I'm sure they'd be delighted to have you and I'm sure you would have no problem being a lackey to a proper dictator.

It'd also help your rebellious message, since most of their people want to move here. It'd be very alternative to not just support oppression and misery in theory (for other people) but actually for yourself. 

this inane point has been brought up multiple times, so I'll address it -- the fact as I see it is I am more able to change the course (or destroy the breadth) of US power from within than I would be from without.  this is my motivation and I seek broadly to make my living out of doing so -- in the tradition of Kunstler, Ramsay Clark, etc.

Lol. How convenient for you. I'll extend you the same respect that I expect you extend to really rich people who support low taxes, not because they benefit from it, but because it is best for society.

Now, the society I support has led to the best standard of living ever seen in human history for poor people. Your preferred society (the USSR) was one of mass starvation and genocide. But all your beloved countries (Belarus, Venezuela, North Korea and so on) have ruling classes that live in splendour.

So, please, prove your point. If you can.

I'm not sure what point I'm supposed to prove -- your interjection here didn't have anything to do with what you've quoted, and I'm not about to start repeatedly playing on your home turf.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Gustaf on August 23, 2012, 09:31:41 AM

I understand you were born the way you are. But what prevents you from moving to one of the socialist paradises on Earth? I'm sure they'd be delighted to have you and I'm sure you would have no problem being a lackey to a proper dictator.

It'd also help your rebellious message, since most of their people want to move here. It'd be very alternative to not just support oppression and misery in theory (for other people) but actually for yourself. 

this inane point has been brought up multiple times, so I'll address it -- the fact as I see it is I am more able to change the course (or destroy the breadth) of US power from within than I would be from without.  this is my motivation and I seek broadly to make my living out of doing so -- in the tradition of Kunstler, Ramsay Clark, etc.

Lol. How convenient for you. I'll extend you the same respect that I expect you extend to really rich people who support low taxes, not because they benefit from it, but because it is best for society.

Now, the society I support has led to the best standard of living ever seen in human history for poor people. Your preferred society (the USSR) was one of mass starvation and genocide. But all your beloved countries (Belarus, Venezuela, North Korea and so on) have ruling classes that live in splendour.

So, please, prove your point. If you can.

I'm not sure what point I'm supposed to prove -- your interjection here didn't have anything to do with what you've quoted, and I'm not about to start repeatedly playing on your home turf.

My home turf being reality?

You accused me of supporting the ruling classes. So I pointed out that I support an order that has led to the best standard of living the poor have ever seen, while you support one that lead to misery for the poor and abundance for the ruling class. So I thought you might want to back up your assertion with something a bit more substantive (or, since we both know you can't, you can just retract your statement and admit that it was baseless).

It's interesting how supposedly collectivist thinker tend to be so megalomaniac that they place themselves outside even of their own intellectual constructs (if one may call them that - but I'm  in a generous mood). "People should live in the best places on Earth, like Belarus - except for me, I'll endure the hardships of the US"


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on August 23, 2012, 09:37:38 AM
I support an order that has led to the best standard of living the poor have ever seen, while you support one that lead to misery for the poor and abundance for the ruling class.

Misery is an emotional state, Gustaf.  Better stick to the numbers of microwaves and I-pads and things like that.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: © tweed on August 23, 2012, 09:54:32 AM
a few general points.


-there are plenty of places under still US dominion that have similar or worse living standards than the countries we've been talking about.  and the move away from a US-dominated Latin America has been accompanied by an increase in living standards for the majority of the population.  the typical model has been a Europeanized elite ruling over a morass of the destitute and indigenous.  the reason that Chavez and Castro* and the rest are so hated by the Western media is because they actually invest in and rely on their own populations for support instead of taking US dollars to fund a military dictatorship, allow for foreign capital "investment" to exploit cheap labor and natural resources and then expatriate the profits, etc.  the people who pay for mass media (and run economics schools) hate this sh**t and back coups whenever they can in the name of stability (Chile, Honduras, Cuba, Venezuela, Haiti have all been subjected to at least one US-backed coup attempt in the past fifty years, three of them in the last ten years).


-even assuming that Gustaf's statement is true, "I support an order that has led to the best standard of living the poor have ever seen", what does it prove?  it does not prove that this order should persist.  surely he is aware of the most elemental Marxist-Leninist doctrine, that of "stages of history", when the agrarian pre-capitalist gives way to the capitalist which gives way to the socialist.

two sub-points are instructive here.  a) the evidence is that the time for this transition is beyond ripe.  in the US the wage rate per unit of productivity has hit the absolute toilet since the 1970s, meaning the charms of growth have ceased to be dispersed around the society at all -- now this phenomenon is expanding beyond the underclass and through the middle class, as even the top 20% 'political class' has been smashed here in the late neoliberal era.  Gustaf will retort that, even as wages and wealth are falling, quality-of-life is increasing... I don't see how this is true?  sure the underclass can now dilly time away on their iPhone that they bought on a credit card at 30% APY, but they're also working 80 hours per week and can't afford to take advantage of that beautiful new medical technology... where's the quality of life if there's no time?  this phenomenon has hit the middle classes as well... I could go on forever, but one more thing.  6-year-olds now have 50% less lingustic capacity than 6-year-olds did in the 1950s.  why?  people their parents are always working and there are 34 kids for one teacher in their first grade class, so they never interact with adults, only with each other, and development is stunted.

the second sub-point is an old point, that all of the economics models in your textbooks treat natural resources as infinite, the "dirty secret" (Wallerstein) that is externalization of costs... yes, in the perfect fictional world the government then legislates to take care of the externalization, but in the real world economic power is political power, capital captures the democratic process with ease, leading to a vicious cycle (in the midst of an environmental crisis the US is not discussing new, tougher standards but instead wants to eliminate the EPA).


*using Castro mostly in past tense here.  the old Castro that had the USSR to rely on.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: © tweed on August 23, 2012, 09:58:31 AM
"People should live in the best places on Earth, like Belarus - except for me, I'll endure the hardships of the US"

this is the total straw man that opebo was speaking of a few days ago.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: © tweed on August 23, 2012, 05:04:02 PM
back on the original topic, Chomsky weighs in.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/opinion/interviews/Noam-Chomsky-Julian-Assange-deserves-applause/articleshow/15621507.cms

The accusations should be taken quite seriously, just as all such accusations should. Independent of that, no decent country would permit a person to be sent to a country where the chances of his receiving a fair trial are very limited. The apparent conflict can be easily resolved. Sweden claims only that they want to interrogate Assange. They have been invited to do that in England, or in the Ecuadoran Embassy in London. They refuse. They could also issue a statement that they will not extradite Assange to the United States. They refuse.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 23, 2012, 05:09:17 PM
Chomsky is flat-out wrong about the way the Swedish justice system works (http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david-allen-green/2012/08/legal-myths-about-assange-extradition).


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on August 23, 2012, 05:18:35 PM
Chomsky is flat-out wrong about the way the Swedish justice system works (http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david-allen-green/2012/08/legal-myths-about-assange-extradition).

You're arguing the letter of the law, Nathan, which really has nothing to do with what everybody's talking about.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 23, 2012, 05:38:32 PM
Chomsky is flat-out wrong about the way the Swedish justice system works (http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david-allen-green/2012/08/legal-myths-about-assange-extradition).

You're arguing the letter of the law, Nathan, which really has nothing to do with what everybody's talking about.

I'm trying (to no apparent avail because most people have already made up their minds on whether or not they want to spend their political energies fellating this tiresome person) to explain why the Swedish authorities could not, in fact, have done what people like Chomsky are arguing they ought to have done.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: © tweed on August 23, 2012, 06:13:39 PM
Chomsky is flat-out wrong about the way the Swedish justice system works (http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david-allen-green/2012/08/legal-myths-about-assange-extradition).

You're arguing the letter of the law, Nathan, which really has nothing to do with what everybody's talking about.

I'm trying (to no apparent avail because most people have already made up their minds on whether or not they want to spend their political energies fellating this tiresome person) to explain why the Swedish authorities could not, in fact, have done what people like Chomsky are arguing they ought to have done.

you either 'get it' or you don't, my buddy.  you're naive and idealistic and live largely inside your own head -- submission to anything but that which is imaginary eludes you.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 23, 2012, 06:14:57 PM
Chomsky is flat-out wrong about the way the Swedish justice system works (http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david-allen-green/2012/08/legal-myths-about-assange-extradition).

You're arguing the letter of the law, Nathan, which really has nothing to do with what everybody's talking about.

I'm trying (to no apparent avail because most people have already made up their minds on whether or not they want to spend their political energies fellating this tiresome person) to explain why the Swedish authorities could not, in fact, have done what people like Chomsky are arguing they ought to have done.

you either 'get it' or you don't, my buddy.  you're naive and idealistic and live largely inside your own head -- submission to anything but that which is imaginary eludes you.

I can't stop laughing. You sure you want to be the one in the firing chamber telling others that they live in their own heads, Tweed? You think I consider 'naive' and 'idealistic' insults? Seriously? Do you know me at all? I own The Little Prince in three different languages and have watched Simoun five times, for God's sake. What is it exactly that you want me to 'submit' to, the idea that one can and should get away with sex crimes if one has enough brain-dead college students with blown-out septa and news-hungry aging activists convinced that one is somehow individually essential for The Revolution? Because the world would be a hell of a lot better off if that way of thinking were imaginary, buster.

Anything that befalls Julian Assange he has brought upon himself with his execrable and cowardly behavior. It's not even so much about the fact that he's a sleazy pervert any more as it about his belief that he is above the law and above anybody's moral standards but his own, which seem to run to 'that which gets my dick wet and/or my face in the newspapers'--such theatrically, giving speeches from balconies! Oh, he's a regular Wallenberg. But that isn't what reality is, is it? That's not the reality of the streets or the reality of the Cross or the reality of anything at all except the pathological need to have some sort of hipster messiah to sublimate fantasies of escape that people are too stupid and uncreative to deal with in any way that's actually constructive or does anybody except Julian Assange's penis which can do no wrong any lick of good. This is exactly why I hate the New Left. It's why my own political attitudes have become more, shall we say, antipositivist and, dare I say, YES! in some ways crypto-theocratic over the years, and whatever one may think that that's worth I'm proud of not being a bog standard Chomskyite or Occupy-type if legitimizing this sort of megalomania and obsession with the sad odysseys of entirely justly persecuted slimeballs is what that leads to.

Rafael Correa should know better and I'm disappointed in him. I'm saying this about a man who even before this was probably my least favorite South American leader who isn't dear Sebastian down in Valparaiso.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: © tweed on August 23, 2012, 06:27:31 PM
if I provoke, I hit a nerve -- I succeed.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 23, 2012, 06:29:07 PM

I'm honestly and deeply pissed off and I'm quite proud of my resulting post in terms of English composition. Well done.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: The Mikado on August 23, 2012, 06:54:07 PM

Anything that befalls Julian Assange he has brought upon himself with his execrable and cowardly behavior. It's not even so much about the fact that he's a sleazy pervert any more as it about his belief that he is above the law and above anybody's moral standards but his own, which seem to run to 'that which gets my dick wet and/or my face in the newspapers'--such theatrically, giving speeches from balconies! Oh, he's a regular Wallenberg. But that isn't what reality is, is it? That's not the reality of the streets or the reality of the Cross or the reality of anything at all except the pathological need to have some sort of hipster messiah to sublimate fantasies of escape that people are too stupid and uncreative to deal with in any way that's actually constructive or does anybody except Julian Assange's penis which can do no wrong any lick of good. This is exactly why I hate the New Left. It's why my own political attitudes have become more, shall we say, antipositivist and, dare I say, YES! in some ways crypto-theocratic over the years, and whatever one may think that that's worth I'm proud of not being a bog standard Chomskyite or Occupy-type if legitimizing this sort of megalomania and obsession with the sad odysseys of entirely justly persecuted slimeballs is what that leads to.


This is truth.  The Left has this horrible infantile tendency to lionize and venerate anyone who fights the same people they dislike, turning that figure into a hero, a saint, and, inevitably and always, a martyr.  The modern hard Left has more hagiography going on than the Venerable Bede published in a lifetime, and you can tell they're hungering for Assange to die a horrible death so they can pin him up with Trotsky and Che Guevara on their "martyrs in the heroic struggle" Tumblr background while continuing to not actually do anything other than talk about their masturbatory fantasies of life "after the revolution," when suddenly scarcity, hunger, and unemployment will magically disappear.  Assange's sins will, nay, must be pardoned, just like the Trotskyites have forgotten the Kronstadt Mutiny when Trotsky murdered the sailors who helped make the Revolution a reality in the first place, because the idea of Assange is more important to them than Assange the man is.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Gustaf on August 23, 2012, 06:54:19 PM
a few general points.


-there are plenty of places under still US dominion that have similar or worse living standards than the countries we've been talking about.  and the move away from a US-dominated Latin America has been accompanied by an increase in living standards for the majority of the population.  the typical model has been a Europeanized elite ruling over a morass of the destitute and indigenous.  the reason that Chavez and Castro* and the rest are so hated by the Western media is because they actually invest in and rely on their own populations for support instead of taking US dollars to fund a military dictatorship, allow for foreign capital "investment" to exploit cheap labor and natural resources and then expatriate the profits, etc.  the people who pay for mass media (and run economics schools) hate this sh**t and back coups whenever they can in the name of stability (Chile, Honduras, Cuba, Venezuela, Haiti have all been subjected to at least one US-backed coup attempt in the past fifty years, three of them in the last ten years).


-even assuming that Gustaf's statement is true, "I support an order that has led to the best standard of living the poor have ever seen", what does it prove?  it does not prove that this order should persist.  surely he is aware of the most elemental Marxist-Leninist doctrine, that of "stages of history", when the agrarian pre-capitalist gives way to the capitalist which gives way to the socialist.

two sub-points are instructive here.  a) the evidence is that the time for this transition is beyond ripe.  in the US the wage rate per unit of productivity has hit the absolute toilet since the 1970s, meaning the charms of growth have ceased to be dispersed around the society at all -- now this phenomenon is expanding beyond the underclass and through the middle class, as even the top 20% 'political class' has been smashed here in the late neoliberal era.  Gustaf will retort that, even as wages and wealth are falling, quality-of-life is increasing... I don't see how this is true?  sure the underclass can now dilly time away on their iPhone that they bought on a credit card at 30% APY, but they're also working 80 hours per week and can't afford to take advantage of that beautiful new medical technology... where's the quality of life if there's no time?  this phenomenon has hit the middle classes as well... I could go on forever, but one more thing.  6-year-olds now have 50% less lingustic capacity than 6-year-olds did in the 1950s.  why?  people their parents are always working and there are 34 kids for one teacher in their first grade class, so they never interact with adults, only with each other, and development is stunted.

the second sub-point is an old point, that all of the economics models in your textbooks treat natural resources as infinite, the "dirty secret" (Wallerstein) that is externalization of costs... yes, in the perfect fictional world the government then legislates to take care of the externalization, but in the real world economic power is political power, capital captures the democratic process with ease, leading to a vicious cycle (in the midst of an environmental crisis the US is not discussing new, tougher standards but instead wants to eliminate the EPA).


*using Castro mostly in past tense here.  the old Castro that had the USSR to rely on.



Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 23, 2012, 07:02:50 PM

Anything that befalls Julian Assange he has brought upon himself with his execrable and cowardly behavior. It's not even so much about the fact that he's a sleazy pervert any more as it about his belief that he is above the law and above anybody's moral standards but his own, which seem to run to 'that which gets my dick wet and/or my face in the newspapers'--such theatrically, giving speeches from balconies! Oh, he's a regular Wallenberg. But that isn't what reality is, is it? That's not the reality of the streets or the reality of the Cross or the reality of anything at all except the pathological need to have some sort of hipster messiah to sublimate fantasies of escape that people are too stupid and uncreative to deal with in any way that's actually constructive or does anybody except Julian Assange's penis which can do no wrong any lick of good. This is exactly why I hate the New Left. It's why my own political attitudes have become more, shall we say, antipositivist and, dare I say, YES! in some ways crypto-theocratic over the years, and whatever one may think that that's worth I'm proud of not being a bog standard Chomskyite or Occupy-type if legitimizing this sort of megalomania and obsession with the sad odysseys of entirely justly persecuted slimeballs is what that leads to.


This is truth.  The Left has this horrible infantile tendency to lionize and venerate anyone who fights the same people they dislike, turning that figure into a hero, a saint, and, inevitably and always, a martyr.  The modern hard Left has more hagiography going on than the Venerable Bede published in a lifetime, and you can tell they're hungering for Assange to die a horrible death so they can pin him up with Trotsky and Che Guevara on their "martyrs in the heroic struggle" Tumblr background while continuing to not actually do anything other than talk about their masturbatory fantasies of life "after the revolution," when suddenly scarcity, hunger, and unemployment will magically disappear.  Assange's sins will, nay, must be pardoned, just like the Trotskyites have forgotten the Kronstadt Mutiny when Trotsky murdered the sailors who helped make the Revolution a reality in the first place, because the idea of Assange is more important to them than Assange the man is.

Oh, believe me, I as a Christian am far from universally opposed to the idea of using perceived exemplars from a half-remembered past as symbols. It's partially what the study of history is inherently about; I've become convinced, for instance, of my inability to completely 'reconstruct' and 'know' the writer I'm studying, who's only been dead for about half as long as she was alive in the first place.

What I think is perverse is when this is applied to every aspect of a person in a whitewashing manner. Augustine and Patrick and Julian (the late-medieval English one!) and all the other saints, and Bodhidharma and the other teachers and patriarchs, were idealized partially through of a narrative of recognizing and working with or through flaws. That may not always come across in popular piety but it was always part of the received understanding. I don't think the modern process of secular canonization (from the Left or otherwise, but I'm more familiar with it from the Left because I'm, broadly speaking, on the Left) has the same capacity to accommodate that recognition of flaws, and I also think it lacks the discernment to separate the flawed but admirable (I'd include for instance Victor Jara in this category, although I'd be hesitant to include certain elements of the government he supported) from those who are just personally godawful, no matter whose uncomfortable secrets they're publishing on the Internet.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: © tweed on August 23, 2012, 07:10:13 PM
I attempt to address some of these issues here.  https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=158043.0


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 23, 2012, 07:14:10 PM
Thank you, Tweed. I doubt it'll staunch my key concerns but I'll make sure to peruse it at some point this evening.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on August 23, 2012, 08:51:31 PM

Anything that befalls Julian Assange he has brought upon himself with his execrable and cowardly behavior. It's not even so much about the fact that he's a sleazy pervert any more as it about his belief that he is above the law and above anybody's moral standards but his own, which seem to run to 'that which gets my dick wet and/or my face in the newspapers'--such theatrically, giving speeches from balconies! Oh, he's a regular Wallenberg. But that isn't what reality is, is it? That's not the reality of the streets or the reality of the Cross or the reality of anything at all except the pathological need to have some sort of hipster messiah to sublimate fantasies of escape that people are too stupid and uncreative to deal with in any way that's actually constructive or does anybody except Julian Assange's penis which can do no wrong any lick of good. This is exactly why I hate the New Left. It's why my own political attitudes have become more, shall we say, antipositivist and, dare I say, YES! in some ways crypto-theocratic over the years, and whatever one may think that that's worth I'm proud of not being a bog standard Chomskyite or Occupy-type if legitimizing this sort of megalomania and obsession with the sad odysseys of entirely justly persecuted slimeballs is what that leads to.


This is truth.  The Left has this horrible infantile tendency to lionize and venerate anyone who fights the same people they dislike, turning that figure into a hero, a saint, and, inevitably and always, a martyr.  The modern hard Left has more hagiography going on than the Venerable Bede published in a lifetime, and you can tell they're hungering for Assange to die a horrible death so they can pin him up with Trotsky and Che Guevara on their "martyrs in the heroic struggle" Tumblr background while continuing to not actually do anything other than talk about their masturbatory fantasies of life "after the revolution," when suddenly scarcity, hunger, and unemployment will magically disappear.  Assange's sins will, nay, must be pardoned, just like the Trotskyites have forgotten the Kronstadt Mutiny when Trotsky murdered the sailors who helped make the Revolution a reality in the first place, because the idea of Assange is more important to them than Assange the man is.

Please avoid generalizations like this.

Other than that, I entirely agree.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on August 23, 2012, 10:26:56 PM
This is truth.  The Left has this horrible infantile tendency to lionize and venerate anyone who fights the same people they dislike, turning that figure into a hero, a saint, and, inevitably and always, a martyr.  The modern hard Left has more hagiography going on than the Venerable Bede published in a lifetime, and you can tell they're hungering for Assange to die a horrible death so they can pin him up with Trotsky and Che Guevara on their "martyrs in the heroic struggle" Tumblr background while continuing to not actually do anything other than talk about their masturbatory fantasies of life "after the revolution," when suddenly scarcity, hunger, and unemployment will magically disappear.  Assange's sins will, nay, must be pardoned, just like the Trotskyites have forgotten the Kronstadt Mutiny when Trotsky murdered the sailors who helped make the Revolution a reality in the first place, because the idea of Assange is more important to them than Assange the man is.

Quoted for truth


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: © tweed on August 23, 2012, 10:48:06 PM
as if I'm incapable of fallibility?  there's a double standard, I don't care to flesh it out here, but it's so easy for you, you Obama voters, and everyone else in between... there's such a sence of self-worship that comes with the flag!  and yet we on the real left, the left-of-liberal, express one opinion, say one silly thing, and what do you do?  no surprise, you take it as evidence of your own righteousness.  all I say is, how easy it is to convince yourself your righteousness when every media stream, every College Board, every 101 professor, every parent at a Memorial Day parade will assent, will commend you for your feigned courage.


there's a sad fact for you sad fckers.  there is another life!  and it's understood!  it's understood by men like William Kuntsler, Ramsay Clark, Aaron Burr if we go back far enough.  they understood the flip side of this fcking dumb ass coin that you worship.  oh man, you treat me like a joke, but there's a light here, brilliant people have seen it.  if you want to see that light, come to me, come to us!  and if you don't, don't!  don't convince yourselves of some superiority, all you'll be left with is a moment, at age 50, when you stare at the wall, thinking, well, what if the road had forked in Tweed's direction...?


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Gustaf on August 24, 2012, 02:36:05 AM
as if I'm incapable of fallibility?  there's a double standard, I don't care to flesh it out here, but it's so easy for you, you Obama voters, and everyone else in between... there's such a sence of self-worship that comes with the flag!  and yet we on the real left, the left-of-liberal, express one opinion, say one silly thing, and what do you do?  no surprise, you take it as evidence of your own righteousness.  all I say is, how easy it is to convince yourself your righteousness when every media stream, every College Board, every 101 professor, every parent at a Memorial Day parade will assent, will commend you for your feigned courage.


there's a sad fact for you sad fckers.  there is another life!  and it's understood!  it's understood by men like William Kuntsler, Ramsay Clark, Aaron Burr if we go back far enough.  they understood the flip side of this fcking dumb ass coin that you worship.  oh man, you treat me like a joke, but there's a light here, brilliant people have seen it.  if you want to see that light, come to me, come to us!  and if you don't, don't!  don't convince yourselves of some superiority, all you'll be left with is a moment, at age 50, when you stare at the wall, thinking, well, what if the road had forked in Tweed's direction...?

Aw. I'm afraid this crossed into sadness now. It's still funny, but it's one of those guilty laughters where you know you should really feel pity.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: MASHED POTATOES. VOTE! on August 24, 2012, 06:33:49 AM
What the f**k is this?


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on August 24, 2012, 07:24:11 AM
... his execrable and cowardly behavior. ...he's a sleazy pervert any more as it about his belief that he is above the law and above anybody's moral standards but his own, which seem to run to 'that which gets my dick wet and/or my face in the newspapers'

But Nathan, a desire to have sex is commonplace and normal, not 'perverse', as is a desire for some form of affirmation in the real world - sometimes called 'success', and typified by being seen the media.

I don't really understand your extreme emotional response, Nathan.  Your opponents have no such passion here - I have no idea that Assange is perfect or a saint, I suppose I just consider all of us, including myself, to be real people.  Perhaps you would understand better if you enjoyed life more - had sexual desires and so forth.  

However it is in the nature of power that it does create martyrs, however flawed they are: everyone in prison at this moment is in some sense a martyr to our system of social control, however unpleasant they may appear to be on the (largely imaginary and irrelevant) 'personal level'.  The flaws are created by power just as much as the martyrdom is, and to despise the poor b*stard for his flaws is just as unreasonable as to saint him.

(this is directed, with respect, to you as well Mikado)


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: dead0man on August 24, 2012, 07:32:20 AM
It's the "real" left showing their true colors.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Gustaf on August 24, 2012, 09:26:15 AM
... his execrable and cowardly behavior. ...he's a sleazy pervert any more as it about his belief that he is above the law and above anybody's moral standards but his own, which seem to run to 'that which gets my dick wet and/or my face in the newspapers'

But Nathan, a desire to have sex is commonplace and normal, not 'perverse', as is a desire for some form of affirmation in the real world - sometimes called 'success', and typified by being seen the media.

I don't really understand your extreme emotional response, Nathan.  Your opponents have no such passion here - I have no idea that Assange is perfect or a saint, I suppose I just consider all of us, including myself, to be real people.  Perhaps you would understand better if you enjoyed life more - had sexual desires and so forth.  

However it is in the nature of power that it does create martyrs, however flawed they are: everyone in prison at this moment is in some sense a martyr to our system of social control, however unpleasant they may appear to be on the (largely imaginary and irrelevant) 'personal level'.  The flaws are created by power just as much as the martyrdom is, and to despise the poor b*stard for his flaws is just as unreasonable as to saint him.

(this is directed, with respect, to you as well Mikado)

Why this obsession with normality, opebo? Why do you feel the need to impose your set of values on Nathan or anyone else? Most people are actually not that fixated on sex.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on August 24, 2012, 09:32:34 AM
Most people are actually not that fixated on sex.

Really?  Really???? 

Into the absurdity bin with this one!


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Gustaf on August 24, 2012, 10:15:06 AM
Most people are actually not that fixated on sex.

Really?  Really???? 

Into the absurdity bin with this one!

I mean on the level of Opebo. :P Most people have plenty of other things going on in life that they value highly.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on August 24, 2012, 10:24:07 AM
Most people are actually not that fixated on sex.

Really?  Really???? 

Into the absurdity bin with this one!

I mean on the level of Opebo. :P Most people have plenty of other things going on in life that they value highly.

Ok, whew......yes, opebo is one of a kind, and I'm sure he'll be by to thank you for pointing it out ;)


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 24, 2012, 10:35:30 AM
With respect to you as well, opebo, I actually have extreme emotional responses about most things, I just don't usually unload about them unless I'm in the zone, so to speak, and the way this was being talked about put me in said zone.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on August 24, 2012, 12:36:58 PM

But Nathan, a desire to have sex is commonplace and normal, not 'perverse', as is a desire for some form of affirmation in the real world - sometimes called 'success', and typified by being seen the media.

Why this obsession with normality, opebo? Why do you feel the need to impose your set of values on Nathan or anyone else? Most people are actually not that fixated on sex.

Because my statement was a direct response to a claim of abnormality made by my quoted interlocutor (Nathan), Gustaf - as I have now underlined above for those who have difficulty with reading comprehension.

I mean on the level of Opebo. :P Most people have plenty of other things going on in life that they value highly.

But Gustaf, you're only imagining the straw-man opebo.  I'm not obsessed with s*x - in point of fact I also place a great deal of importance on eating, sleeping, and being completely bone-idle, but those things are somewhat easier to obtain than the unmentionable.



Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Mr. Morden on August 24, 2012, 11:45:19 PM
Or perhaps to them rape charges are a bigger issue than the putative wellbeing of one particular individual who has delusions of grandeur about his having pissed off the US government.

Yeah, as I said, different priorities.  They, like you, can't see the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is the fact that we've got people supporting a sleazy sex addict's attempts to flee Swedish justice, of all justices, because they like (their perceptions of) his political beliefs.

I think that's unfair to opebo.  He would probably support Assange's attempts to flee rape charges even if he didn't like his political beliefs.


I don't think even opebo would consider himself, individually, to constitute 'the bigger picture'.

What I'm saying here is that I don't think opebo would consider Assange to be a sleazy sex addict, nor what he's accused of to be something that he should be prosecuted for, regardless of what Assange's political beliefs are.  Remember, we're dealing with someone who thought Polanski was guilty of nothing more than bad judgment.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on August 25, 2012, 01:00:11 PM
"Do you know that I shall soon die in terrible pain?
But what can I do?  God has sent me to save our dear sovereign and Holy Russia.
Despite my terrible sins, I am a Christ in miniature."






Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 25, 2012, 01:45:40 PM
Or perhaps to them rape charges are a bigger issue than the putative wellbeing of one particular individual who has delusions of grandeur about his having pissed off the US government.

Yeah, as I said, different priorities.  They, like you, can't see the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is the fact that we've got people supporting a sleazy sex addict's attempts to flee Swedish justice, of all justices, because they like (their perceptions of) his political beliefs.

I think that's unfair to opebo.  He would probably support Assange's attempts to flee rape charges even if he didn't like his political beliefs.


I don't think even opebo would consider himself, individually, to constitute 'the bigger picture'.

What I'm saying here is that I don't think opebo would consider Assange to be a sleazy sex addict, nor what he's accused of to be something that he should be prosecuted for, regardless of what Assange's political beliefs are.  Remember, we're dealing with someone who thought Polanski was guilty of nothing more than bad judgment.


Oh, I know that, I just don't think that his personal considerations regarding that are the 'bigger picture' that he's talking about.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on August 25, 2012, 02:00:31 PM
I don't think even opebo would consider himself, individually, to constitute 'the bigger picture'.

What I'm saying here is that I don't think opebo would consider Assange to be a sleazy sex addict, nor what he's accused of to be something that he should be prosecuted for, regardless of what Assange's political beliefs are.  Remember, we're dealing with someone who thought Polanski was guilty of nothing more than bad judgment.

Oh, I know that, I just don't think that his personal considerations regarding that are the 'bigger picture' that he's talking about.
[/quote]

Yeah, the bigger picture I'm talking about is simply that the marauding hegemon is at least in some sense a threat to or having an effect on us - one weedy guy's sexual behavior, however bad, really is an irrelevancy from 99.9% of the population's perspective.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: 後援会 on August 26, 2012, 12:49:23 AM
I am really conflicted with Assange. On a very base, emotional level, I want him to be captured and hanged (or executed in some other way), but I also think doing so would be detrimental for U.S. interests and actually quite difficult to do.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Free Palestine on August 26, 2012, 01:44:43 AM
I'm utterly disgusted by people who wish to see the state murder people for OH NOES RELEASING SOME F$CKING DOCUMENTS.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Kaine for Senate '18 on August 26, 2012, 08:05:51 AM
And I'm utterly disgusted by your support for rapists and terrorists.  Assange has put many people in danger by releasing those documents.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Donerail on August 26, 2012, 09:03:41 AM
And I'm utterly disgusted by your support for rapists and terrorists.  Assange has put many people in danger by releasing those documents.

Assange is the most dangerous terrorist the United States has ever faced since Daniel Ellsberg. His leaks caused much political embarrassment put many people in danger. He deserves to be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize be shot.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 26, 2012, 09:51:31 AM
Yeah, the bigger picture I'm talking about is simply that the marauding hegemon is at least in some sense a threat to or having an effect on us - one weedy guy's sexual behavior, however bad, really is an irrelevancy from 99.9% of the population's perspective.

I agree with you insofar as that, in an ideal world, state treatment of Assange's escapades wouldn't have to be handled in any manner more public or consuming of resources than treatment of anybody else's. We just (obviously) disagree on what that treatment should be, and on whether or not that ship has irrevocably sailed due to the nature of the situation.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Frodo on August 26, 2012, 10:14:02 AM
I am really conflicted with Assange. On a very base, emotional level, I want him to be captured and hanged (or executed in some other way), but I also think doing so would be detrimental for U.S. interests and actually quite difficult to do.

I'd rather just see Assange spend the rest of his miserable life in a federal penitentiary.  That will be enough for most people.  

I'm still making up my mind about Bradley Manning, though... 


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on August 26, 2012, 10:43:51 AM
And I'm utterly disgusted by your support for rapists and terrorists.  Assange has put many people in danger by releasing those documents.

So did Stauffenberg.  I don't see why we should consider that important.

I'd rather just see Assange spend the rest of his miserable life in a federal penitentiary.  That will be enough for most people.  

What for?


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: 後援会 on August 26, 2012, 12:07:34 PM
I am really conflicted with Assange. On a very base, emotional level, I want him to be captured and hanged (or executed in some other way), but I also think doing so would be detrimental for U.S. interests and actually quite difficult to do.

I'd rather just see Assange spend the rest of his miserable life in a federal penitentiary.  That will be enough for most people.  

I'm still making up my mind about Bradley Manning, though... 

Well, we probably don't have the case to actually hang him. Heck, even putting him in jail is a little of a stretch (though we could probably do it).

I've yet to as well. Manning was obviously a mere patzy whose fairly crappy life was taken advantage of. At the same time, what he did was completely unacceptable. And I think it's in cases like this why lady justice is blind.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Free Palestine on August 26, 2012, 02:22:22 PM
I am really conflicted with Assange. On a very base, emotional level, I want him to be captured and hanged (or executed in some other way), but I also think doing so would be detrimental for U.S. interests and actually quite difficult to do.

I'd rather just see Assange spend the rest of his miserable life in a federal penitentiary.  That will be enough for most people.  

I'm still making up my mind about Bradley Manning, though... 

()


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Middle-aged Europe on August 26, 2012, 02:31:01 PM
Don't know what's more disturbing... people who are buying the whole "WikiLeaks endangers lifes" propaganda or people who think "maybe rape isn't so bad as long as the perp has other accomplishments to show for".


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Free Palestine on August 26, 2012, 02:58:38 PM
Don't know what's more disturbing... people who are buying the whole "WikiLeaks endangers lifes" propaganda or people who think "maybe rape isn't so bad as long as the perp has other accomplishments to show for".

Now, I'm not an apologist for otherwise-FFs who commit alleged sex crimes...I'm just very, very wary of the whole situation, what with the U.S. having a vested interest in getting it's dirty hands on him.  Yes, they could have asked for his extradition from the UK, but what if once he's in Sweden the U.S. goes "alright, we'd like him once you're done with him"?


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on August 27, 2012, 12:15:43 PM
disturbing... people who think "maybe rape isn't so bad as long as the perp has other accomplishments to show for".

I don't think it is so much that as just that people tend to doubt the allegations, or even if they were true, many people don't find them to conform to their idea or definition of 'rape'.





Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on August 27, 2012, 12:39:20 PM
Actually, opebo, I think most believe it was he-said she-said. 


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on August 27, 2012, 05:30:28 PM
Actually, opebo, I think most believe it was he-said she-said. 

Yeah, that's what I mean when I say they 'doubt the allegations'.  I mean, how could you not?


Title: new statesman in error regarding swedish extradition law
Post by: opebo on August 28, 2012, 01:52:01 PM
Kind of amusing to see several of the legal myths thrown around by Assange's defence team repeated here immediately after I posted a piece that, basically, tears them to shreds.

Here it is again, for anyone that's interested. (http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david-allen-green/2012/08/legal-myths-about-assange-extradition)

Hey Al, it turns out that article you linked twice is wrong (according to this Guardian article)! (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/24/new-statesman-error-assange-swedish-extradition)  It is in fact up to the Swedish government to extradite or not extradite, and it could in fact make promises or 'guarantees' about same.  And another source debunking your article. (http://pastehtml.com/view/c91yw7wjy.html)


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on August 28, 2012, 02:19:10 PM
I'm no diplomatic expert and like opebo, I'm a lazy, so I'll ask - Isn't a diplomatic vehicle and a diplomatic plane the property of the foreign gummit?  I'm guessing no or he'd be in Quito by now.....but enlighten me.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: opebo on August 28, 2012, 02:32:07 PM
I'm no diplomatic expert and like opebo, I'm a lazy, so I'll ask - Isn't a diplomatic vehicle and a diplomatic plane the property of the foreign gummit?  I'm guessing no or he'd be in Quito by now.....but enlighten me.

Yeah, they probably wouldn't enter Ecuador's car or plane (though I'm guessing Ecuador only used ordinary commercial flights), I think the issue is that even if he were transported without notice to the airport, he would still have to pass through some form of immigration control.  Diplomats do as well - they have their own line for rushed service, but they still have to go though it.  I imagine there are cases - maybe american diplomats, highly ranked members of governments, and I would even guess some of the super-rich, whose immigrations processing is taken care of on their own private plane, but a delegation from immigration, dealing with minions. 

But the fact remains, everyone (other than maybe a head-of-state) who goes into and out of a country still has to have a passport, show it, and get stamped in or out.  I don't think he could get out, leaving aside the idea of Ecuador deliberately violating British immigration law by smuggling him out in a bag, which I don't think they would do.  Quite frankly I think it is far more likely that Britain will break with diplomatic protocol by simply removing  him from the Embassy than that Ecuador will try to get him on a plane.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on August 28, 2012, 03:05:50 PM
Quite frankly I think it is far more likely that Britain will break with diplomatic protocol by simply removing  him from the Embassy than that Ecuador will try to get him on a plane.

Agreed


Title: Re: new statesman in error regarding swedish extradition law
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on August 28, 2012, 07:25:11 PM
Hey Al, it turns out that article you linked twice is wrong (according to this Guardian article)! (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/24/new-statesman-error-assange-swedish-extradition)  It is in fact up to the Swedish government to extradite or not extradite, and it could in fact make promises or 'guarantees' about same.  And another source debunking your article. (http://pastehtml.com/view/c91yw7wjy.html)

I think it's more that one particular claim might be, but whatever.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on August 28, 2012, 07:28:13 PM
The issue with getting into a car is more the 'getting into' part than anything else; he's wanted for breaching bail conditions so he would most likely be arrested as soon as he walked out of the embassy.

Anyway, at present things seem to have reverted back to 'let him stay in there as long as they'll have him'. The elections in Ecuador are early next year, I think.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Bacon King on August 29, 2012, 02:36:27 AM
Couldn't Assange just be taken from the embassy to a vehicle, carried inside a largeish crate, if it is properly marked as a diplomatic bag? Even if the British knew he was inside, they'd still be prohibited from opening it, no?


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Silent Hunter on August 29, 2012, 03:51:22 AM
Couldn't Assange just be taken from the embassy to a vehicle, carried inside a largeish crate, if it is properly marked as a diplomatic bag? Even if the British knew he was inside, they'd still be prohibited from opening it, no?

Diplomatic bags aren't allowed to be used to transport people. They'd be able to stop it if they suspected he was in it and refuse to allow it to go on a plane.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on August 29, 2012, 08:02:36 AM
While they would have no right to inspect or detain a diplomatic bag, the UK would be within its rights to hermetically vacuum seal it.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Silent Hunter on August 29, 2012, 08:59:41 AM

It is interesting how the FCO position on the inviolability of diplomatic bags has changed (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/672786.stm), isn't it?

Quote
Enshrined in the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, the status of the diplomatic bag allows the UK to send "anything we want" to our embassies, according to Foreign Office spokesman Richard Wood.

The next paragraph of that article points out that does not include arms. Or legs. Or entire living Australians.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: Bacon King on August 29, 2012, 09:54:54 AM
New idea: Vienna Convention specifies that diplomatic couriers are immune from all arrests and detainments, that they can be appointed on an ad hoc basis, and doesn't give any nationality requirements.

Could Assange be able to just walk from the Embassy to the airport, and fly to Ecuador with no problems, if he was properly accredited as an ad-hoc diplomatic courier and was given some random papers to carry with him in a satchel marked as a diplomatic bag?

Also, on another note, would Ecuador even want to smuggle him out like this? I've considered the fact that they might just be using Assange as a bargaining chip, to be released into British custody whenever they agree to consessions of some sort (though I have no idea what those would be).


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on August 29, 2012, 08:07:12 PM
For those who think that the diplomatic courier solution is an option, it isn't at least for now.

Quote
Article 8
1.Members of the diplomatic staff of the mission should in principle be of the nationality of the sending State.
2.Members of the diplomatic staff of the mission may not be appointed from among persons having the nationality of the receiving State, except with the consent of that State which may be withdrawn at any time.
3.The receiving State may reserve the same right with regard to nationals of a third State who are not also nationals of the sending State.

Assange would have to acquire Ecuadorian citizenship before he could be accredited as diplomatic staff.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on August 29, 2012, 10:22:38 PM
How exactly is Assange a terrorist and how has he endangered anyone's life?

Assange may be a rapist, and whether he is or isn't he obviously is an ego-filled attention whore. But a terrorist? LOL.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: morgieb on August 30, 2012, 01:18:03 AM
How exactly is Assange a terrorist and how has he endangered anyone's life?

Assange may be a rapist, and whether he is or isn't he obviously is an ego-filled attention whore. But a terrorist? LOL.
By reading right-wing propaganda.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on August 30, 2012, 02:42:13 AM
Diplomatic couriers are not usually members of staff accredited to a mission (e.g., the Queens's Messangers) - so I would think it quite questionable whether Article 8 applies.
Article 5 allows for a state to insist upon members of the staff be accredited to a particular mission primarily so that the Republic of Hatfield need not share the same agricultural agent from Fredonia as their enemy the Kingdom of McCoy.  No one usually cares who the couriers are since they never stay in country long.  However, it would be exceedingly odd that you could reject all other diplomatic personnel, but not the couriers.  So while Articles 5 and 8 would rarely get used against diplomatic couriers I see no reason why they should not be and eery reason why they should.


Title: Re: Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on August 30, 2012, 03:04:32 AM
Coincidentally, came across this in the news just now.

India diplomatic bag found in French Alps after 46 years (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-19419781)


Title: Assange proves he is a delusional idiot
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on August 31, 2012, 03:07:27 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19433294 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19433294)

Quote from: BBC
Julian Assange has predicted that he will remain inside an embassy in London for "six to 12 months".

...

In a interview broadcast in Ecuador, Mr Assange said the Swedish authorities dropping the case against him is "the most likely scenario".

...

During the Telesur television interview, recorded earlier this week inside the embassy, Mr Assange said that he believes the situation "will be solved through diplomacy".

He added: "The Swedish government could drop the case. I think this is the most likely scenario. Maybe after a thorough investigation of what happened they could drop the case.

"I think this will be solved in between six and 12 months. That's what I estimate."

I can't think of any reason for Sweden to drop the case, let alone drop it so soon.


Title: Re: Assange belies paranoia accusations
Post by: opebo on August 31, 2012, 06:21:21 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19433294 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19433294)

Quote from: BBC
Julian Assange has predicted that he will remain inside an embassy in London for "six to 12 months".

I can't think of any reason for Sweden to drop the case, let alone drop it so soon.

Well, it certainly is the opposite delusion of the one of which he is normally accused.