Talk Elections

Sponsor: ZuWo

I'd suggest to make up for some of the budget shortfalls maybe bringing the beer tax up to at least even with the wine tax, not to say it will help entirely but it seems like at least something that may help a bit without being too burdensome.

This is understandable. I'd support such an amendment most likely.

As for the budget, Governor ZuWo sent it to me to look at before I was elected and I told him what we've got here is better than nothing and works for this point in time.

You write up a budget then -_- ;)

I did while in the Senate and it went down hard

:P

Can we get in HW's amendment? That along with the buying liquor on Sunday will help and then we can see how much more we need to cut or increase in taxes.

I'm wary of raising taxes but can agree on a tax hike if it's necessary (I just fear the vengeance of the beer drinkers :P).
However, we should also look into spending cuts in order to balance the budget. The education, for example, is by far the biggest part of the budget. Even if it's not a popular thing to do, we might have to consider spending cuts in this area as well.

What about adding a tax on pensions and getting a toll road system going to offset the transportation budget (which is also pretty high)?

Or maybe we could make cuts in the future?

It's not a tax hike when I made up arbitrary tax rates :P Badger calculated RL spending of all the states together and education is really the only one we hit on the mark. Then again, this is Atlasian life and we can only assume our teacher's are the best in the world already :D

I would probably agree with both of you.

I like the sound of a lot of these proposals.  I would support a toll road system and possibly an increase in the beer tax, although I don't like tax increases.  Just as long as we're not raising taxes on businesses or business owners.

Again, we are setting a tax rate here, not actually raising existing tax rates so there's lots of potential here since there aren't any taxes that will really be cut or raised by the budget to effect the population in that area. Of course taxes will effect people, but it will not be a change in taxes.

My Amendment

Mideast Budget 2012

Revenue:

Revenue: Amount
Income Taxes: $35.3 B
Social Insurance Taxes: $24.4 B
"Ad Valorum" Taxes: $108.5 B
Fees: $43.3 B
Business and Other: $70.5 B
TOTAL: $282 B


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Budget: $314.01 billion
Spending ($232.71 billion)

*(No change) does NOT denote changing in spending levels from RL to this budget. It's really there for the next budget so we can copy this first budget, change the numbers, and then off to the side put the positive/negative change since the preceeding budget.

Energy ($5.75  billion)
$3 Billion ...... Loans to be granted to energy companies that have a responsible environmental track record, are seriously attempting to develop clean energy alternatives, push for energy efficiency and/or have an approved plan to do so.
$1 Billion  ...... Fund for alternative energy
$1 Billion  ...... Updating the Mideast's current energy infrastructure
$0.5 Billion  ...... Refitting all government buildings to run on clean energy
$0.25 Billion  ...... Refitting all government vehicles (cars, planes, etc.) to run on clean energy)

Natural resources and environment ($5.21 billion)
$2.61 billion ...... Water resources (No Change)
$0.57 billion ...... Conservation and land management (No Change)
$0.42 billion ...... Recreational & Park resources (No Change)
$1.11 billion ...... Pollution control and abatement (No Change)
$0.5 billion ....... Other natural resources (No Change)

Agriculture ($4.04 billion)
$2.95 billion ..... Farm income stabilization & crop insurance (No Change)
$1.09 billion ...... Agricultural research and services (No Change)

Commerce and Housing Loan Programs ($1.95 billion)
$0.34 billion ..... Housing Loan Programs (No Change)
$0.02 billion ..... Deposit insurance (No Change)
$1.36 billion ...... Universal service fund (No Change)
$0.23 billion ...... Other advancement of commerce (No Change)

Transportation ($23.25 billion)
$9.00 billion ..... Highways and highway safety (No Change)
$4.00 billion ...... Mass transit (No Change)
$0.25 billion ...... Railroads (No Change)
$2.05 billion ..... Air Transportation (No Change)
$1.05 billion ...... Water transportation (No Change)
$0.45 billion ...... Other transportation (No Change)
$6.45 billion ..... Non-Highway Roads (No Change)

Community and regional development ($4.39 billion)
$2.50 billion ...... Community development (No Change)
$0.96 billion ...... Area and regional development (No Change)
$0.93 billion ...... Disaster relief and insurance (No Change)

Education ($69.32 billion)
$41.32 billion ..... Elementary, Secondary & Vocational education (No Change)
$20.00 billion ..... Higher education (No Change)
$8.00 billion ...... Research and general education (No Change)

Training, labor and unemployment ($9.37 billion)
$4.34 billion ...... Training and employment (No Change)
$0.2 billion ....... Labor law, statistics, and other administration (No Change)
$4.83 billion ..... Unemployment compensation (No Change)

Health Spending ($14.08 billion)
$2.23 billion ...... Substance abuse and mental health services (No Change)
$0.70 billion ....... Disease control, public health and bioterrorism (No Change)
$8.45 billion ..... Health research and training (No Change)
$1.50 billion ...... Food safety and occupational health and safety (No Change)
$0.20 billion ..... Other health care services (No Change)
$1.00 billion ...... Health care fraud (No Change)

Civilian Retirement ($41.50 billion)
$1.0 billion ...... Civilian retirement and disability insurance (No Change)
$29.50 billion ..... Mideast employee retirement and disability (No Change)
$11.00 billion ...... Mideast employees' and retired employees' health benefits (No Change)

Aid to Low-Income Families ($25.00 billion)
$6.01 billion ..... Housing assistance (No Change)
$4.33 billion ..... Food stamps (No Change)
$2.3 billion ...... Other nutrition programs (WIC, school lunches) (No Change)
$3.33 billion ..... Family support payments (TANF) (No Change)
$7.01 billion ..... Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) (No Change)
$0.85 billion ..... Child tax credit (No Change)
$0.99 billion ....... Child care funds (No Change)
$0.18 billion ...... Other aid to low-income families (No Change)

General Family Support ($5.39 billion)
$1.32 billion ...... Foster care and adoption assistance (No Change)
$0.33 billion ...... Child support and family support programs (No Change)
$3.74 billion ..... Social and family services (No Change)

Administration of justice ($20.45 billion)
$11.35 billion ..... Regional law enforcement and security (No Change)
$5.21 billion ..... Regional litigation and judicial activities (No Change)
$2.89 billion ...... Regional prison system (No Change)
$1.00 billion ...... Criminal justice assistance (No Change)

General government administration ($3.01 billion)
$0.31 billion ...... Legislative functions (No Change)
$0.10 billion ...... Executive office programs (No Change)
$2.05 billion ....... Fiscal operations (No Change)
$0.55 billion ...... Other general government (No Change)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tax Expenditures and Tax Cuts ($81.3 billion)

Corporate Tax Breaks ($11.03 billion)
$7.00 billion ...... R&D Tax Breaks (No Change)
$1.01 billion ...... Energy, Mining and Timber Tax Breaks (No Change)
$2.03 billion ...... Tax Free Bonds (No Change)
$0.99 billion ..... Other Corporate Tax Breaks (No Change)

Personal Business & Investment Benefits ($4.69 billion)
$3.80 billion ..... Tax-Free Bonds (No Change)
$0.56 billion ...... Enterprise & Empowerment Zones and New Markets credit (No Change)
$0.33 billion ....... Other personal investment tax breaks (No Change)

Pension & Retirement Deductions ($26.08 billion)
$10.05 billion ..... Employer-paid Pensions (No Change)
$7.05 billion ..... 401Ks & Keogh plans (No Change)
$1.50 billion ...... IRAs (No Change)
$6.62 billion ..... Group and personal life insurance benefits (No Change)
$0.86 billion ...... Other retirement benefits (No Change)

Health Insurance Tax Benefits ($12.14 billion)
$5.30 billion .... Employer-paid Health Insurance (No Change)
$1.03 billion ...... Self-employed medical insurance premiums (No Change)
$4.70 billion ...... Medical Savings/Health Savings Accounts (No Change)
$1.11 billion ...... Deductibility of medical expenses (No Change)

Housing tax benefits ($12.93 billion)
$5.50 billion ..... Mortgage Interest (No Change)
$3.01 billion ..... Deductibility of property taxes on homes (No Change)
$3.51 billion ..... Exclusion of net imputed rental income on owner-occupied homes (No Change)
$0.91 billion ...... Housing bonds & low-income housing investments (No Change)

Other individual deductions and exemptions ($14.43 billion)
$3.62 billion ..... Charitable contributions (No Change)
$1.91 billion ..... Local taxes (w/o home property) (No Change)
$0.56 billion ...... Workmen's compensation (No Change)
$3.33 billion ..... Education deductions and credits (No Change)
$1.31 billion ..... Child credit (No Change)
$1.38 billion ...... Child care credits and deductions (No Change)
$0.46 billion ......... Deduction for the blind and elderly (No Change)
$0.41 billion ...... Employee parking and transit expenses (No Change)
$0.35 billion ...... Adoption and foster care tax credits (No Change)
$0.80 billion ...... Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC)- revenue loss component (No Change)
$0.30 billion ...... Other fringe benefits (No Change)
----------

Income Tax Rate:
0%    $0 - $13,000
1%    $13,001 - $40,000
1.5%    $40,001 - $100,000
2.2%    $100,001 - $180,000
2.7%    $180,001 - $300,000
3.25%    $300,001 - $750,000
4%    $750,001 - $2,750,000
5%    $2,750,001- $9,999,999
6.5%   $10,000,000+

Corporate Tax Rate:
0%    $0 - $50,000
0.5%    $50,001 - $75,000
1%    $75,001 - $125,000
1.5%    $125,001 - $350,000
2%    $350,001 - $1,000,000
2.5%    $1,000,001 - $10,000,000
3.25%    $10,000,001 - $20,000,000
4%    $20,000,001-$70,000,000
5%   $70,000,001+

Sales Tax Rate: 5.7% (Groceries, prescription drugs exempt)

Excise Taxes:

Gas: 7 cents/gallon (10 cents/gallon for diesel).

Cigarettes: $1.60 per pack.
Other Tobacco Products: 55% Manufactures Price
Distilled Spirits: $2.70 per gallon
Wine: $0.30 per gallon
Beer: $0.20$0.30 per gallon
Marijuana: 25% sales tax

Projected Deficit: $32.01 B

Also is there any data we can get from the GM that shows the optimal marijuana tax where we will make the most revenue without users moving back to a black market and pay no taxes?

I propose the following amendment:


As for the pension tax, that will be in a non-budget bill.

I don't know any reliable way to figure that that, but my guess is that if you add the 25% tax in this budget to the 10% national tax, you are coming pretty close to it.

I suppot the beer tax amendment, if only to make sure wine and beer are treated equally.

()

I support the beer tax amendment too, and I agree with Governor ZuWo that they should be equally taxed because I can't see much difference that would merit a different race for beer and wine.

Isn't that the same as the one I proposed before?

My apologies.  I did not see that.

Voting on HappyWarrior's amendment will now begin.  Members will vote AYE, NAY, or ABSTAIN.  This  will be a 24-hour vote.

AYE

AYE

AYE

Why did you vote on this?

"for the people" ;)

Aye

OK - I don't mind the public voicing their opinions here, but let's try to differentiate between votes and public opinion.

Abstain

Voting is now closed.  The AYEs are 4, and the NAYs are 0, with 1 ABSTAIN.  The AYEs have it, and the amendment is agreed to.  Debate will now continue.

0%, considering the federal tax rates on marijuana.

So now that we've decided to raise taxes on beer (we still need to figure out how much money this generates), are there more ideas as to how we can balance the budget?

Maybe make some cuts to administration.  Anybody know a responsible way to do that?

No, because in many programs, especially more entitlements programs we are on the brink or underfunded as it is. The problem with Atlasian budgets is we don't have control of management really. We only can pass laws of how to make something more efficient. I'm sure we could try some free market ideas like Mitch Daniels did in Indiana. Instead of making a toll road, just set aside a chunk of money and whatever company shows the most efficient and effective plan wins the contract and the road is toll free and in better shape than the government building and taxing it. We might already have that in the region though, I am unsure...

If we don't have that yet, then I would support it.

I'm only bringing this up because I saw it mentioned, I know it hasn't been seriously discussed yet, but FTR, I am adamantly opposed to any effort to try and bring more toll roads to the Mideast Region.

You could get rid of some of those tax expenditures.

Let's cut government as opposed to raising taxes on income or this proposed beer tax increase.

Normally I'd agree with you, but there must be some room for short term tax increases in order to keep revenue flowing.

I would probably agree with both of you on this one.

Well the beer tax increase amendment passed

I'm leaning towards supporting shua's idea and ask the members of the Assembly: Which specific tax expenditure(s) are you ready to sacrifice in return for a balanced budget?

Would a pension tax have to be done in a separate bill?

I would be willing to support that, but as long as it only affects future employees.  

Guys I'm telling as the conservative author of this bill we really can't afford to cut much from this budget at all. It already is as libertarian as you can get when compared to all the states in the region combined RL. It's easy to say "cut government" but this budget is already at that stage of enough to survive on, but enormously less expenditures than RL budgets. If you want to make this game like RL, then you have to look at the budget from the standpoint that we can't magically cut everything and expect great benefits due to incredible management and super people in every department. If you want to see the full fight, just go to the old thread where GM Badger and I endlessly debated this.

I second A-Bob's statements. A balanced budget is ideal, but we can't gut our government.

I'm assuming you have a significant pension tax. I beleive that's what most of that "social insurance tax" revenue represents, and that Badger based the number for that on Ohio's RL programs.

Your direct spending (i.e. government programs) is enormously less than RL budgets. Your tax expenditures are not. 

He's talking about cutting tax expenditures (i.e. tax cuts, etc.), not cutting government programs.

Thirded.

Did nobody read what I said?

If we want to do away with some of the tax expenditures/tax cuts in order to move closer to a balanced budget we need concrete suggestions.

We could, for example, reduce tax deductions for charitable contributions (these tax exemptions currently account for $3.62 billion of our budget). We could also cut the so-called R&D (Research & Development) tax breaks for corporations (they make up $7.0 billion of the budget). If you don't like that feel free to put forward your own ideas.

I really don't know which expenditures/cuts to do that with.

GM shua has informed me that the higher beer taxes generates an additional revenue of $150 million. That's not much more than a drop in the ocean. In fact, our debt is still at $32 billion even with this small tax hike.

Maybe we could cut a little bit from a certain area? I'd like to cut a bit from our education spending.

That's one area I'd personally rather not see touched, considering the strain schools are already in, but it's you guys who vote.

I won't accept any bill with education cuts.

How about energy and Government cuts?

I propose the following amendment (what A-Bob and shua said makes sense; it's hard to cut a lot of money in the "Spending" part but we have room to cut some of the tax breaks):

This isn't necessarily "raising taxes," it's cutting tax breaks we don't need to try and balance the budget. I'm in favour so far.

Even if what I'm proposing is not a direct spending cut, proposals such as my amendment always hurt. For instance, if there is a smaller tax break for charitable contributions some people may be less inclined to give to charity. But that's the price we have to pay for a more balanced budget - I'm not necessarily talking about a completely balanced budget anymore. It seems that we will end up with some sort of deficit but I want that deficit to be as small as possible.

I'm gonna have to agree with HappyWarrior on this one. It's important that regional government wisely handles matters concerning education delicately.

I second both your statement and HappyWarrior's.

Believe me, I don't want to cut education spending but we might have to do it if we want to avoid a deficit because the education is a huge part of the budget. It is easy to say "I don't want spending cuts in this area etc." but it's more difficult to make concrete suggestions. If you are fine with a $28, 29 or 30 billion deficit I can live with that. If not, you are free to put forward a concrete plan to reduce the deficit.

I for my part have made a concrete amendment and I am looking forward to your comments.

While the Assembly is in control of the budget, I would like to point out that this budget already, if I remember correctly, attributes more spending to education than RL.

And yes Inks, I understand what you're saying now.

It would take the cutting of most tax credits though to balance the budget. Considering most tax credit values are around $500 million, scattered throughout, it is difficult to attain the balanced budget without complete eliminations.

I'll bring the following amendment to a vote.  Members will vote AYE, NAY, or ABSTAIN.  This will be a 24-hour vote.

AYE

I once again urge the members of the Assembly to vote AYE on this amendment. By approving this amendment, we can cut the deficit to roughly $27 billion. Still too high, but undoubtedly better.

Aye

Also, the bill that introduced that taxes lottery winnings ought to bring some money back into the system.

I've got a new amendment for you if the current amendment gets passed.

ZuWo, if you tax those "tax free bonds" at half rate,  they're no longer tax free :P

the same applies with "exclusion of net imputed rental income"

Thanks for pointing that out. I'll correct these errors.

AYE

I hate to do this, but Aye.

Voting is now closed.  The AYEs are 4, and the NAYs are 0, with 1 not voting.  The AYEs have it, and the amendment is agreed to.

I'll sponsor this amendment for the Governor, and since it's been up for a bit, I don't see need for debate.  Voting is now open on this amendment.  Members will last for 48 hours.  Voting will vote AYE, NAY, or ABSTAIN.  This will be a 24-hour vote.

AYE

Nay and for the record on the previous amendment NAY

AYE

Tmth asked me to look at this:

Halving the mortgage interest deduction: the effect will be mostly felt by people with more expensive homes.  Lower and middle income earners will pay additional $100 or less in taxes, but people at the higher incomes and more expensive homes could pay an additional thousand dollars or more. Upper middle and upper class homes may see a small decrease in home values. People in mid-to- high tax brackets tend to factor in the deduction when they decide whether to buy a home, so they made need to readjust their budgeting. This could contribute to a decision to move into a less expensive place, or rent instead of own, but the effect will not be very large because federal taxes will still have a full deduction.

Having the property tax deduction:  The effect will depend on local property tax rates, but the additional tax will be small for most people. Still, there may additional pressure on some localities to lower local property taxes due to this change.

Thank you, shua, for these insights.

I never claimed my amendment would not be painful but at this point we simply don't have many choices. As A-Bob and shua pointed out earlier in this thread, we can't cut a lot from the budget because certain programs are actually nearly underfunded in this budget. That's why, as shua suggested, we are probably forced to focus on tax expenditures instead.

Voting is now closed.  The AYEs are 3, and the NAYs are 1, with 1 not voting.  The AYEs have it and the amendment is agreed to.  Debate will now continue.

Alright, the debt is down to roughly $22 billion now (from $32 billion). If anyone has other suggestions for cuts to the budget, feel free to post them here.
If we establish a regional lottery we can do something against the deficit on the revenue side. This might be an effective plan to solve some of our problems because there is not a lot of (if any) room for cuts in government programs.

If I had been here for the vote, I would've voted for it.

Would we support a pension tax?

Probably.

What type of tax rate?  Do we want to tax it when it's put into the pension or when it comes out?

If done when it goes in, we could just include pre-pension contribution for income tax, but then that would exclude employer's contribution.  If we tax it when retirees get the pension and tax it as income then, it would probably be taxed at a lower rate than it would be if we taxed it when it was put in, but we would be covering the money put in by both employees and employers.

How about we include pre-pension income in an employees taxable income, and we tax employers' contributions at a rate of 1.5%?

Input anyone?

I can live with that.

Mhm.

While the pension tax is going through the pipes, does anyone else have amendments?

The net revenue from the sale of lottery tickets alone (excluding taxes on winnings) is around $4.8 according to an estimate by GM shua. Once we have figured out how much money we collect by the tax on lottery winnings and the pension tax, our budget seems to be ready.

Cool! :)

EDIT: $4.8 billion of course. $4.8 would be a bit disappointing. ;)

That's what I was assuming/hoping it was :P

Plus the pension tax numbers have to be added in.