Talk Elections

General Politics => International General Discussion => Topic started by: Snowstalker Mk. II on August 05, 2012, 04:02:02 PM



Title: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: Snowstalker Mk. II on August 05, 2012, 04:02:02 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19135435#

Obviously it's wrong to murder a human being, though it's hard to not sympathize with the miners.


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: MaxQue on August 05, 2012, 04:20:00 PM
Well, not really surprising, through events shouldn't reach that point in the modern world.


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 05, 2012, 06:34:06 PM
Manager, not owner. I'm sure the owners of the mine are still sitting pretty in China.


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: Vosem on August 05, 2012, 07:18:46 PM
Obviously it's wrong to murder a human being, though it's hard to not sympathize with the miners.

I succeeded. Obviously a minimum wage is a key part of the sort of thing governments should do, and it should be enforced, but the very idea of strikers killing businessmen leaves a horrible taste in my mouth. Thankfully in the country where I live this sort of thing doesn't happen.


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 05, 2012, 07:22:29 PM
Obviously it's wrong to murder a human being, though it's hard to not sympathize with the miners.

I succeeded. Obviously a minimum wage is a key part of the sort of thing governments should do, and it should be enforced, but the very idea of strikers killing businessmen leaves a horrible taste in my mouth. Thankfully in the country where I live this sort of thing doesn't happen.

You really are completely and across the board in favor of established interests and power, aren't you?


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on August 05, 2012, 07:22:42 PM
Quote
Last year, the Zambian government dropped charges against two Chinese managers accused of attempted murder after they fired on miners at the Collum mine during a pay dispute.

Good for the miners, vigilante justice can be the only recourse when the system is stacked against you, the litigation system is broken and you aren't given basic human rights.


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: RogueBeaver on August 05, 2012, 07:29:24 PM
I'm with Snow here.


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on August 05, 2012, 07:34:25 PM
'It's in the evening after dark...'


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: Zioneer on August 05, 2012, 08:56:56 PM


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: politicus on August 06, 2012, 01:34:36 AM
Chinese neo-imperialism in Africa is a disturbing phenomena indeed. The methods are worse than what even the hardest European neo-colonialist could even think of.


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: LastVoter on August 06, 2012, 01:37:32 AM
Freedom fighters.


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: opebo on August 06, 2012, 03:31:43 PM

Now if the Chinese slaves would rise up and kill those above them in China, and the American ones in America, and so forth.  I suppose it isn't impossible.


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on August 06, 2012, 03:52:53 PM

Now if the Chinese slaves would rise up and kill those above them in China, and the American ones in America, and so forth.  I suppose it isn't impossible.

They should start in Thailand first.


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: LastVoter on August 06, 2012, 09:49:07 PM

Now if the Chinese slaves would rise up and kill those above them in China, and the American ones in America, and so forth.  I suppose it isn't impossible.
It's a good question of whether American slaves could rise up, considering they have all been exported to china or contained in certain neighborhoods.


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: Joe Republic on August 06, 2012, 10:53:20 PM
Obviously it's wrong to murder a human being, though it's hard to not sympathize with the miners.

I succeeded. Obviously a minimum wage is a key part of the sort of thing governments should do, and it should be enforced, but the very idea of strikers killing businessmen leaves a horrible taste in my mouth. Thankfully in the country where I live this sort of thing doesn't happen.

You really are completely and across the board in favor of established interests and power, aren't you?

Actually I was a little amazed by the first half of his second sentence.  The monocle seems to be slipping.


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: opebo on August 07, 2012, 10:19:18 AM
Now if the Chinese slaves would rise up and kill those above them in China, and the American ones in America, and so forth.  I suppose it isn't impossible.

They should start in Thailand first.

Heheh, you mean I should rise up against the ladies I pay out loads of money to each month?


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: Rhodie on August 07, 2012, 11:29:13 AM
Obviously it's wrong to murder a human being, though it's hard to not sympathize with the miners.

I succeeded. Obviously a minimum wage is a key part of the sort of thing governments should do, and it should be enforced, but the very idea of strikers killing businessmen leaves a horrible taste in my mouth. Thankfully in the country where I live this sort of thing doesn't happen.

You really are completely and across the board in favor of established interests and power, aren't you?

Being opposed to the murder in cold blood of businessmen isn't to do with being in favour of established interests and power.


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: Redalgo on August 07, 2012, 12:02:11 PM
They should have captured and detained the bloke - the killing cannot be justified and forfeits at least in part some of the miners' moral high ground. Though I sympathize and more closely align with the Zambian miners than the management and mostly agree with Politicus when it comes to the exploitation of Africans by the PRC, shedding blood is nevertheless very poor form.


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on August 07, 2012, 01:09:32 PM
Now if the Chinese slaves would rise up and kill those above them in China, and the American ones in America, and so forth.  I suppose it isn't impossible.

They should start in Thailand first.

Heheh, you mean I should rise up against the ladies I pay out loads of money to each month?

You're not one of the slaves, and I thought one reason you liked the place was that you didn't have to pay as much.


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: ingemann on August 07, 2012, 03:23:41 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12973534

Quote
Zambia drops Chinese bosses' mine shooting charges

The Zambian government has dropped charges against two Chinese managers accused of attempted murder after firing on miners during a pay dispute.

Xiao Li Shan and Wu Jiu Hua said the workers' behaviour, at the Collum coal mine in October, had been threatening. The shooting left at least 11 injured.

China has invested more than $400m (£250m) in the copper-rich country.

But companies have faced regular opposition from workers and union leaders over abuses and low wages.

Mr Xiao and Mr Wu had opened fire indiscriminately on their employees at the mine in Sinazongwe to break up a protest, according to police.

Following the decision to drop the charges, their defence lawyer, George Chisanga, said Zambian law meant the state did not have to give an explanation and the pair could still be called back to court by the director of public prosecutions.

Reuben Lifuka, the president of anti-corruption group Transparency International Zambia, warned the move could damage confidence in Zambia's judicial system.

"The trauma and injustice that the mine workers suffered is public knowledge and the government itself has on several occasion reprimanded the managers of coal mine on the poor working conditions," he said.

Same mine.
 


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: So rightwing that I broke the Political Compass! on August 09, 2012, 10:12:45 AM
Chinese neo-imperialism in Africa is a disturbing phenomena indeed. The methods are worse than what even the hardest European neo-colonialist could even think of.
I beg to differ. Look into the methods used by oil companies in Nigeria.


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on August 09, 2012, 02:58:15 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12973534

Quote
Zambia drops Chinese bosses' mine shooting charges

The Zambian government has dropped charges against two Chinese managers accused of attempted murder after firing on miners during a pay dispute.

Xiao Li Shan and Wu Jiu Hua said the workers' behaviour, at the Collum coal mine in October, had been threatening. The shooting left at least 11 injured.

China has invested more than $400m (£250m) in the copper-rich country.

But companies have faced regular opposition from workers and union leaders over abuses and low wages.

Mr Xiao and Mr Wu had opened fire indiscriminately on their employees at the mine in Sinazongwe to break up a protest, according to police.

Following the decision to drop the charges, their defence lawyer, George Chisanga, said Zambian law meant the state did not have to give an explanation and the pair could still be called back to court by the director of public prosecutions.

Reuben Lifuka, the president of anti-corruption group Transparency International Zambia, warned the move could damage confidence in Zambia's judicial system.

"The trauma and injustice that the mine workers suffered is public knowledge and the government itself has on several occasion reprimanded the managers of coal mine on the poor working conditions," he said.

Same mine.
 

Zambia: Proud Subsidiary of the People's Republic of China

Appears to be the case.


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 13, 2012, 06:55:48 PM
Obviously it's wrong to murder a human being, though it's hard to not sympathize with the miners.

I succeeded. Obviously a minimum wage is a key part of the sort of thing governments should do, and it should be enforced, but the very idea of strikers killing businessmen leaves a horrible taste in my mouth. Thankfully in the country where I live this sort of thing doesn't happen.

You really are completely and across the board in favor of established interests and power, aren't you?

Being opposed to the murder in cold blood of businessmen isn't to do with being in favour of established interests and power.

I'm opposed to it because it's people killing people. Vosem seems to care an inordinate amount about the positions of the people in question.

So in essence I agree with Redalgo.


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: Gustaf on August 14, 2012, 05:27:56 AM
Now if the Chinese slaves would rise up and kill those above them in China, and the American ones in America, and so forth.  I suppose it isn't impossible.

They should start in Thailand first.

Heheh, you mean I should rise up against the ladies I pay out loads of money to each month?

So, when you're paying people for their work they're exploiting you but in all other instances when someone gets paid it's the people getting paid who are exploited?


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: opebo on August 14, 2012, 10:44:25 AM
You're not one of the slaves, and I thought one reason you liked the place was that you didn't have to pay as much.

Well, compared to the price of other things, and normal salaries, working girls are much more expensive here - say $35 baht for a high-quality 1-3 hours, compared to a normal working-class wage of about $10/day.  In the US you'd pay $200 for the same service, and a normal working class wage is nearly $100/day. 

Heheh, you mean I should rise up against the ladies I pay out loads of money to each month?

So, when you're paying people for their work they're exploiting you but in all other instances when someone gets paid it's the people getting paid who are exploited?

It was a joke, buddy.  The serious implication is, of course, that in terms of repeat visits this kind of thing becomes a rather personal relationship..  Just like the case of gold-digging wives in the US, it isn't always so clear who is exploiting who or who has the 'power'.   


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: Vosem on August 14, 2012, 12:27:28 PM
Obviously it's wrong to murder a human being, though it's hard to not sympathize with the miners.

I succeeded. Obviously a minimum wage is a key part of the sort of thing governments should do, and it should be enforced, but the very idea of strikers killing businessmen leaves a horrible taste in my mouth. Thankfully in the country where I live this sort of thing doesn't happen.

You really are completely and across the board in favor of established interests and power, aren't you?

Being opposed to the murder in cold blood of businessmen isn't to do with being in favour of established interests and power.

I'm opposed to it because it's people killing people. Vosem seems to care an inordinate amount about the positions of the people in question.

Who an angry mob kills is very significant when it comes to understanding the situation and what happens next, Nathan.


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: opebo on August 14, 2012, 12:37:51 PM
Who an angry mob kills is very significant when it comes to understanding the situation and what happens next, Nathan.

Precisely, which is why some of us applaud this as a possible first sign of some kind of government-changing event or process.  If not an immediate revolution, perhaps some other chaos - an 'Arab-spring' style civil war, or riots leading to a coup.. anything is better than the status-quo of utter and total capitalist domination.


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on August 14, 2012, 02:19:39 PM
Obviously it's wrong to murder a human being, though it's hard to not sympathize with the miners.

I succeeded. Obviously a minimum wage is a key part of the sort of thing governments should do, and it should be enforced, but the very idea of strikers killing businessmen leaves a horrible taste in my mouth. Thankfully in the country where I live this sort of thing doesn't happen.

You really are completely and across the board in favor of established interests and power, aren't you?

Being opposed to the murder in cold blood of businessmen isn't to do with being in favour of established interests and power.

I'm opposed to it because it's people killing people. Vosem seems to care an inordinate amount about the positions of the people in question.

Who an angry mob kills is very significant when it comes to understanding the situation and what happens next, Nathan.

I know that, but I still think that the fact that an angry mob is killing people at all should be the main focal point for any emotional reaction, Vosem.

Although to be quite frank, in the political context of Zambia it's hard to feel as revolted as I intellectually and morally know I should be.


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: Vosem on August 14, 2012, 04:33:52 PM
Who an angry mob kills is very significant when it comes to understanding the situation and what happens next, Nathan.

Precisely, which is why some of us applaud this as a possible first sign of some kind of government-changing event or process.  If not an immediate revolution, perhaps some other chaos - an 'Arab-spring' style civil war, or riots leading to a coup.. anything is better than the status-quo of utter and total capitalist domination.

With all hope such a process does not begin, and if it does that the capitalists ultimately win.


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: ingemann on August 15, 2012, 01:37:18 PM
Obviously it's wrong to murder a human being, though it's hard to not sympathize with the miners.

I succeeded. Obviously a minimum wage is a key part of the sort of thing governments should do, and it should be enforced, but the very idea of strikers killing businessmen leaves a horrible taste in my mouth. Thankfully in the country where I live this sort of thing doesn't happen.

You really are completely and across the board in favor of established interests and power, aren't you?

Being opposed to the murder in cold blood of businessmen isn't to do with being in favour of established interests and power.

I'm opposed to it because it's people killing people. Vosem seems to care an inordinate amount about the positions of the people in question.

Who an angry mob kills is very significant when it comes to understanding the situation and what happens next, Nathan.

We have a mine where the managers have a history of shooting their employees (and getting away with it), and we should somehow feel bad for the managers when their work force rise up in protest over the mine breaking the contract with the emploees and kill one of them semi-accidental (if they were serious the other manager hadn't survived). I don't care for mob rule, but the workers wasn't left with any alternatives here.


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: Gustaf on August 19, 2012, 12:30:22 PM
You're not one of the slaves, and I thought one reason you liked the place was that you didn't have to pay as much.

Well, compared to the price of other things, and normal salaries, working girls are much more expensive here - say $35 baht for a high-quality 1-3 hours, compared to a normal working-class wage of about $10/day.  In the US you'd pay $200 for the same service, and a normal working class wage is nearly $100/day. 

Heheh, you mean I should rise up against the ladies I pay out loads of money to each month?

So, when you're paying people for their work they're exploiting you but in all other instances when someone gets paid it's the people getting paid who are exploited?

It was a joke, buddy.  The serious implication is, of course, that in terms of repeat visits this kind of thing becomes a rather personal relationship..  Just like the case of gold-digging wives in the US, it isn't always so clear who is exploiting who or who has the 'power'.   

But do you do repeat visists with all of them? I'm sure that's only a part of the industry.

Regardless, it's not obvious to me that the personal nature is exclusive to the sex industry, nor that it necessarily implies that you're being exploited. I just find it amusing how your standard principle suddenly reverses so conveniently when it comes to your own life.


Title: Re: Zambian miners rise up, kill Chinese mine owner
Post by: opebo on August 19, 2012, 12:50:18 PM
But do you do repeat visists with all of them? I'm sure that's only a part of the industry.

Of course.  Nor was I intending to cover 'every case'  in my comments.

Regardless, it's not obvious to me that the personal nature is exclusive to the sex industry, nor that it necessarily implies that you're being exploited. I just find it amusing how your standard principle suddenly reverses so conveniently when it comes to your own life.

No, its really more of a matter of not being too much of an ideologue - in the same way I don't get too serious about the exploitation done by very small scale 'private business', as I see all around me here in Thailand.  Nor, after all, have I ever offered either a plan for a society without exploitation, or proposed eschewing it personally.