Talk Elections

Question sparked after reading this article (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0912/80840.html?hp=r17).

I have to say I agree with Republicans like Stephen Hadley.  As much as I profoundly disagreed with Bush's decision to invade Iraq, I nonetheless recognize that he did more than anyone to eventually end it, though it took a surge (which I supported) to get us to that point at which we could safely leave the country.   

I agree with everything in this post.

Frodo, if a drunken friend of yours urinated all over your rug, then when he sobered up took it to the dry cleaners for you, would you say he deserved credit or blame?

No, the Sunni tribesmen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_Iraq) who eventually got more pissed off at the Jihadists than the Crusaders deserve most of the credit. Bush deserves the blame for allowing Al-Qaeda in Iraq to exist in the first place.

If you took a crap at the floor in first place, you don't get credit for cleaning it up later.

Yeeeahhh... that would be sort of like if the guy who spread the AIDS virus found the cure for the disease and we all gave him a Nobel Peace Prize for it.

Yes. And Obama deserves blame for the recession.

Blame for peeing on the rug, but credit for taking it the dry cleaners. Because I am NOT giving credit to my unrelated friend

Of course not. He created the entire mess for no reason.

Yes, and in time history will judge President Bush well.

Mmmmm. Of course the massive human rights violations, and Saddam's interest in procuring WMD'S had nothing to do with it. Or the country's covert support for Al Qaeda.

I wasn't aware the last one was a proven fact. The first two I think accounts for alot of countries, but oh right, Iraq was supposed to be an "example" for the rest of the Middle East. That worked out well, didn't it?

Please use the quote function properly, don't make it appear as though I share your warmongering sentiments.

No, the military strategists who came up with the surge and other successful things do.

Oops. Are you the kind of person who wouldn't have supported war against Nazi Germany, as it constituted warmongering. Because believe me, I know left-libertarians who do.

That isn't worth a response. Comparing Nazi Germany to Hussein's Iraq in relation to the threat they posed to the US and the rest of the world is just beyond ridiculous.

Well you say that now, but did anyone think Germany would be a threat to the world in 1933.

How ridiculous.  But, on this forum we probably can't really express what Bush actually deserves, so there's little point in attempting to comment further.

No, because he started it.

lol @ how partisan this poll is.

The answer is no. Ending it does not excuse starting it.

This would be reasonable to say about Iraq in 1991- not only invading Kuwait and having the 4th largest military on the planet, but also on the cusp of developing nukes and positioned to invade Saudi Arabia.

But Iraq in 2003 was a broken and frankly unscary thing.

Giving him credit for ending it in no way dilutes the critique of him for starting it. Good doesn't wash out the bad, but neither does the bad wash out the good.

Obama made the promise to end the war and he ended it. Who knows when it would have been over if Bush was allowed to be president for another four years. American combat operations would probably still be going on. Obama deserves the credit for this.

I'd argue, however, that Bush deserves much more credit than he asks for when it comes to the death of Osama bin Laden. If my understanding is correct, aggressive interrogations at Gitmo helped yield the necessary information to find bin Laden. Bush set up an extremely strong framework for the process that ultimately saw OBL's death. He deserves some recognition.

No. Only Obama gets credit

...yes?

This.  Except that rug has 4500 dead American troops under it and your friend sent you the $1+ Trillion cleaning bill.

Yes, it's not like everything Bush did was wrong but Jesus Christ!

Nobody deserves credit for ending the war, which was a pretty big mistake, imo. If you view it as a positive move then Obama gets credit, totally.

I do give Bush credit for starting the war, though.

Took it to the dry cleaners but charged it to your account.

Both...this is not an either-or dichotomy.  It is the least he could do.  I am not seeing how this contradicts what I just said.  

Ending the war?  We still have 50,000+ troops there whom, though their mission title is different, are effectively still combat troops.  I'd say that war isn't really "over."

its in the interest of certain people to pretend that private mercenaries don't count.