Talk Elections

Election Archive => 2012 Elections => Topic started by: Joe Biden is your president. Deal with it. on October 05, 2012, 05:40:55 PM



Title: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: Joe Biden is your president. Deal with it. on October 05, 2012, 05:40:55 PM
Biden may pull this off because he was in office for a long time. since Ryan was in diapers!


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: Svensson on October 05, 2012, 05:45:32 PM
Easily Ryan, and it doesn't even matter much your opinion of the man. Biden is a bumbling gaffe on legs and has been for a very long time.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: Maxwell on October 05, 2012, 05:47:09 PM
Biden will.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: 後援会 on October 05, 2012, 06:47:11 PM
I think it'll be a wash. We already know Ryan is way faster on his feet than Biden, but that's the issue. Everyone knows.

Biden isn't as embarrassingly incompetent as some people suspect. Woodward's new book even painted a picture of a VP who was significantly more competent than his president

Ryan will probably 'win', but Biden will very likely exceed expectations, so I'm thinking a wash. A lot like the 2008 VP debate in reverse.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: Kitteh on October 05, 2012, 06:48:17 PM
Ryan will probably 'win', but Biden will very likely exceed expectations, so I'm thinking a wash. A lot like the 2008 VP debate in reverse.
^


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY on October 05, 2012, 08:51:31 PM
Probably Ryan, though Biden has the potential to trip him up.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: J. J. on October 05, 2012, 09:03:43 PM
Ryan, but it will have little effect.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: RogueBeaver on October 05, 2012, 09:04:52 PM
Probably Ryan, though Biden has the potential to trip him up.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: 後援会 on October 05, 2012, 09:09:15 PM
I am far more competent in Joe Biden's ability to win a debate than Barack Obamas.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: Beet on October 05, 2012, 09:10:12 PM
Weren't there some reports that Joe is considering 2016? If there's even a glimmer of truth to that, that'd give him more motivation to show up.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: Ogre Mage on October 05, 2012, 09:13:56 PM
Based on his convention speech, my guess is that Ryan will look like the apparent winner immediately after the debate ... and then the fact-checking will start.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: milhouse24 on October 07, 2012, 02:05:43 PM
I think Angry Joe Biden will come out Guns Blazing.  He's a loud speaker, and he will win the Headlines with his attacks on Romney.  He'll attack Romney for being rich and out of touch.  Biden has no qualms about using the 47% line.  He'll attack Bain. 

But the worse thing Biden can do is have a senior senile moment, and say something completely Crazy or Incorrect, that can also doom the Obama campaign.  But basically, Biden is practicing his Zingers like "verb, noun, and 9-11" and his bad or awful jokes. 

All Ryan needs to do is focus on being calm, smart, and a supporter of the unemployed Middle Class.
As long as Ryan doesn't say anything about cutting Medicare, Social Security, or anything in the Ryan budget and just run away from the Ryan budget, then he will have done enough to keep the supporters for Romney. 

All Ryan needs to do is present himself as a working-class Catholic guy from the midwest.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: Warren 4 Secretary of Everything on October 07, 2012, 02:09:17 PM
I think Angry Joe Biden will come out Guns Blazing.  He's a loud speaker, and he will win the Headlines with his attacks on Romney.  He'll attack Romney for being rich and out of touch.  Biden has no qualms about using the 47% line.  He'll attack Bain. 

But the worse thing Biden can do is have a senior senile moment, and say something completely Crazy or Incorrect, that can also doom the Obama campaign.  But basically, Biden is practicing his Zingers like "verb, noun, and 9-11" and his bad or awful jokes. 

All Ryan needs to do is focus on being calm, smart, and a supporter of the unemployed Middle Class.
As long as Ryan doesn't say anything about cutting Medicare, Social Security, or anything in the Ryan budget and just run away from the Ryan budget, then he will have done enough to keep the supporters for Romney. 

All Ryan needs to do is present himself as a working-class Catholic guy from the midwest.
So all he has to do is abandon all of his life's work and not be Paul Ryan and he'll win?


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: 後援会 on October 07, 2012, 02:12:51 PM
So all he has to do is abandon all of his life's work and not be Paul Ryan and he'll win?

And Biden needs to avoid strange-sounding gaffes.

So the conclusion reached in this thread is that both candidates need to try as hard as possible to be different people. Not hard in politics.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: bore on October 07, 2012, 02:17:45 PM
Biden will 'win'. Debates are more than anything about expectations and everyone expects Ryan to wipe the floor with Biden. But he won't because Biden the debater is much better than Biden the campaigner.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: Likely Voter on October 07, 2012, 02:18:14 PM
I predicted Romney would win the first debate (although I didnt think Obama would do so badly). He had tons of prep and challengers generally do well. I predict Biden will win VP. In this case there is a generational thing with the elder statesman schooling the kid like Bentson v Quayle and Cheney v Edwards.  Also Biden showed game in 2008 Dem primary debates and he just has more experience speaking to a general audience (Ryan hasn't even had to run statewide and has mostly been in the conservative media bubble).

But I dont think it will be a blowout and it wont really effect the race, more just entertainment.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: Kitteh on October 07, 2012, 04:12:25 PM
So all he has to do is abandon all of his life's work and not be Paul Ryan and he'll win?

And Biden needs to avoid strange-sounding gaffes.

So the conclusion reached in this thread is that both candidates need to try as hard as possible to be different people. Not hard in politics.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: Rooney on October 07, 2012, 04:27:24 PM
If Biden can make it through the debate without saying the "F" word or insulting an ethnic group he will win. Thus, Ryan will win the debate.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on October 07, 2012, 04:32:10 PM
I heart Joe Biden, but Ryan will.....I do hope Joe drops an F bomb.....


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: renegadedemocrat on October 07, 2012, 05:17:05 PM
It's Biden's to lose. If it's a pure debate, Biden's going to win, but if one of his gaffes come up, then Ryan will win.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: Lincoln Republican on October 07, 2012, 08:39:54 PM
CNN poll shows 55% pick Ryan to win, 39% pick Biden to win.

Ryan will look young yet sound experienced, vigorous, attractive, and sound knowledgeable and in control of the facts.  A fresh face.

Ryan wins.



Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: milhouse24 on October 07, 2012, 08:56:17 PM
CNN poll shows 55% pick Ryan to win, 39% pick Biden to win.

Ryan will look young yet sound experienced, vigorous, attractive, and sound knowledgeable and in control of the facts.  A fresh face.

Ryan wins.



I read some where that Young women are often late deciders.  I think Paul Ryan can win a few % of under-35 women voters if he shows of his awesome abs!  But I think Edwards proved you need more than a pretty face and that Paul needs to sound smart and calm. 


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: milhouse24 on October 07, 2012, 11:28:08 PM
I think Angry Joe Biden will come out Guns Blazing.  He's a loud speaker, and he will win the Headlines with his attacks on Romney.  He'll attack Romney for being rich and out of touch.  Biden has no qualms about using the 47% line.  He'll attack Bain. 

But the worse thing Biden can do is have a senior senile moment, and say something completely Crazy or Incorrect, that can also doom the Obama campaign.  But basically, Biden is practicing his Zingers like "verb, noun, and 9-11" and his bad or awful jokes. 

All Ryan needs to do is focus on being calm, smart, and a supporter of the unemployed Middle Class.
As long as Ryan doesn't say anything about cutting Medicare, Social Security, or anything in the Ryan budget and just run away from the Ryan budget, then he will have done enough to keep the supporters for Romney. 

All Ryan needs to do is present himself as a working-class Catholic guy from the midwest.
So all he has to do is abandon all of his life's work and not be Paul Ryan and he'll win?

Yeah, that's politics you have to be willing to change to popular policies sometimes.  But Paul Ryan is running with Mitt Romney's vision, not his own.  He doesn't want to appear to be an extremist and scare away voters.  Didn't Obama claim to be a "new bipartisan politician", LOL.  Instead he decided to pursue left-wing policies and voters rejected those Democrat proposals in the 2010 election.  We'll have to see if voters will again reject the left-wing policies in 2012. 


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: Fmr President & Senator Polnut on October 07, 2012, 11:30:26 PM
Romney had the advantage of being so slippery and having no shame, that he can easily apply the etch-a-sketch.... Ryan has a MUCH harder time in doing that, he's utterly tied to his record, and since Romney had tied himself to Ryan's Budget... it's going to be a very hard... and I doubt Biden is going to be as soft on Ryan as Obama was on Romney.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: milhouse24 on October 07, 2012, 11:34:40 PM
It's Biden's to lose. If it's a pure debate, Biden's going to win, but if one of his gaffes come up, then Ryan will win.

I'm more interested in seeing debates as PR vehicles for candidates to talk directly to voters.  

I'm not interested in seeing a combative debate meant to "score points."  Master Debaters who appear too aggressive will be seen as mean and unlikeable.  I think Biden can appear buffoonish but he won't be attacking Ryan, he'll be attacking an invisible Romney; and Ryan will be forced to defend Romney's policies and history.  But then again, Ryan can attack Obama.

But Ryan's main goal will be to talk about helping the forgotten Middle class.  

It will be interesting to see how it plays out and which will receive more headlines:
"Biden's repetitive attacks on Romney" or "Paul Ryan's compassion for Middle Class Americans"  

Paul Ryan is newer, so the Media might be willing to focus on whatever he says, just as long as he doesn't make a mistake.  


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: Averroës Nix on October 07, 2012, 11:36:28 PM
Despite my confidence in Biden as a debater, I'm beginning to worry that Ryan will win this by confidently stating made-up numbers.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: Fmr President & Senator Polnut on October 07, 2012, 11:38:43 PM
Despite my confidence in Biden as a debater, I'm beginning to worry that Ryan will win this by confidently stating made-up numbers.

Well, one level of similarity between Romney and Ryan that has developed during this campaign is that they have no shame in just outright lying... not 'creative interpretations' which are normal from both sides in campaigns... but flat-out falsehoods...


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on October 07, 2012, 11:44:36 PM
Ryan probably. The biggest bullet the Democrats need to dodge is Biden not making some egregious gaffe.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on October 07, 2012, 11:53:27 PM
CNN poll shows 55% pick Ryan to win, 39% pick Biden to win.

Ryan will look young yet sound experienced, vigorous, attractive, and sound knowledgeable and in control of the facts.  A fresh face.

Ryan wins.



I read some where that Young women are often late deciders.  I think Paul Ryan can win a few % of under-35 women voters if he shows of his awesome abs!  But I think Edwards proved you need more than a pretty face and that Paul needs to sound smart and calm. 

For God's sake, why don't you just shut the f**k up?


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: traininthedistance on October 08, 2012, 01:08:53 AM
CNN poll shows 55% pick Ryan to win, 39% pick Biden to win.

Ryan will look young yet sound experienced, vigorous, attractive, and sound knowledgeable and in control of the facts.  A fresh face.

Ryan wins.



I read some where that Young women are often late deciders.  I think Paul Ryan can win a few % of under-35 women voters if he shows of his awesome abs!  But I think Edwards proved you need more than a pretty face and that Paul needs to sound smart and calm. 

Don't forget about Biden's Scranton Cannons:

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2012/07/08/opinion/sunday/the-strip.html#1


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: LastVoter on October 08, 2012, 01:12:27 AM
Biden will win this, because he can go very aggressively after Mitt Romney's lies from the first minute of the debate, since he doesn't have the potential race implications that could haunt Obama.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: big bad fab on October 08, 2012, 04:38:56 AM
Option 3: even.

Because they are so different, each of them will be declared the winner thanks to one apsect or the other of the debate.

And because VPs and VP debates are almost useless in a presidential election...


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: They put it to a vote and they just kept lying on October 08, 2012, 05:19:16 AM
Ryan, duh.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: Franzl on October 08, 2012, 05:22:19 AM
Objectively on content? Biden without any doubt.
In the opinion polls afterwards? Dunno. Maybe Biden if he can show how full of s**t Ryan is and avoid gaffes.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: CLARENCE 2015! on October 08, 2012, 05:34:15 AM
Ryan on content, Biden on style... Ryan must show due respect to Biden to avoid appearing a brat


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: opebo on October 08, 2012, 05:46:07 AM
I am far more competent in Joe Biden's ability to win a debate than Barack Obamas.

I think you mean 'confident', n'est-ce pas?

I'm thinking that Biden will seem more likeable.  About the 'debate' who knows, I doubt that content is important.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: milhouse24 on October 08, 2012, 12:12:31 PM
CNN poll shows 55% pick Ryan to win, 39% pick Biden to win.

Ryan will look young yet sound experienced, vigorous, attractive, and sound knowledgeable and in control of the facts.  A fresh face.

Ryan wins.



I read some where that Young women are often late deciders.  I think Paul Ryan can win a few % of under-35 women voters if he shows of his awesome abs!  But I think Edwards proved you need more than a pretty face and that Paul needs to sound smart and calm. 

For God's sake, why don't you just shut the f**k up?

Why don't you just ban yourself, you vulger Obama hack troll.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: Grumpier Than Uncle Joe on October 08, 2012, 12:14:49 PM
I am far more competent in Joe Biden's ability to win a debate than Barack Obamas.

I think you mean 'confident', n'est-ce pas?

I'm thinking that Biden will seem more likeable.  About the 'debate' who knows, I doubt that content is important.

You're right, content probably isn't the most important thing......the golden rule of cause no harm is priority #1 for both of these guys.  It's just harder for Biden because he can't STFU......


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY on October 08, 2012, 12:24:47 PM

Sure he'll sound knowledgeable, but he'll be lying through his sculpted abs and biceps.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: opebo on October 08, 2012, 12:39:24 PM

Sure he'll sound knowledgeable, but he'll be lying through his sculpted abs and biceps.

Is he actually muscular?  He just looks like a skinny, pale twerp with five-o'clock shadow on TV.  Biden's an enormously more handsome man.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: Cobbler on October 08, 2012, 01:10:59 PM
Biden will win this one. The pressure will be on him to make up for the last debate, so he's going to try to perform at his peak. Also, unlike Obama, Biden is actually a good debater, and is able to be aggressive and come up with zingers against his opponents better than the President. I also get the sense that Ryan, if facing an aggressive Biden, will get flustered when trying to defend some of the less accurate parts of his argument. When Chris Wallace pressed him on things in the plan, he struggled. I don't think he's used to being challenged, and Biden will definitely challenge him.

Also, Biden is honestly more likeable than Ryan. He comes off as a straight shooter and is much more passionate sounding than Romney, Obama, and Ryan.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: TheGlobalizer on October 08, 2012, 04:18:31 PM
Ryan, but it's dangerous.  Biden is a pretty bad fit for an opponent because he doesn't purport to be much of an intellectual in the first place.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: Stranger in a strange land on October 08, 2012, 04:41:47 PM
Ryan will win, but Biden will exceed expectations, so it'll pretty much be a wash.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: Eraserhead on October 08, 2012, 05:04:53 PM
I have faith in Biden. He's a much better debater than Obama (or Romney for that matter).

I actually think there's a pretty good chance he could win decisively. Although it's kind of hard to predict how well Ryan will actually perform, so we'll see.

Biden has definitely already won the expectations game too, which is a big plus (thanks to the media's portrayal of him as a bigmouth goofball and their portrayal of Ryan as some kind of boy genius).


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: milhouse24 on October 08, 2012, 05:09:59 PM
I actually think Ryan should just not say much, and just let Biden talk the WHOLE time.  The more Biden speaks, the more likely he will make a huge mistake, and he might also sound like a BULLY.  Which would hurt Obama worse.  Biden may come off as more desperate, to keep Obama's campaign from losing.  Biden will attack Romney hard, and I'm sure many voters will take notice and doubt their vote for Romney. 

Ryan will need to remind voters about how the "Middle Class has been crushed the last 4 years" and how awful the Obama presidency has been.  He might not be skilled enough to make this point across. 

But the best strategy would be to just let Biden talk and talk and talk. 


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: opebo on October 08, 2012, 05:11:15 PM
I know that usually VP debates have no real effect on the polls, but in this case a strong Biden showing could help Obama, as he is very white and and has a common touch - really just the sort who might help to bridge the gap to those now-Romney leaning working class white swing voters.  I'm quite sure most of them will never swing back, but if even a very few did, the racist strategy would be defeated.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: RogueBeaver on October 08, 2012, 05:14:03 PM
Both of them have traps to avoid: Biden has to avoid gaffes, Ryan can't get too wonky and defensive about his own plans. Both of them will to a certain extent be aiming at the other man's running mate and not each other.


Title: Re: Who will win the V.P Debate?
Post by: Oldiesfreak1854 on October 08, 2012, 05:54:51 PM
Ryan will clean Biden's clock easily.