Talk Elections

Greetings :)

I wanted to ask you to consider re-registering in the Mideast, PJ recommended I talk to some of you guys about this.  This is off-record, meaning don't tell anyone about this invite, even if you trust them.  As you may or may not be aware, the region has recently been re-energized by the abortion debate after the Federalist majority in the Assembly, with the support of Governor ZuWo, tried to ram through a number of harsh restrictions on abortion rights (including a 25 year jail sentence for women who get abortions for reasons other than rape, incest, or to save the life of the mother).  As a Progressive, you'd be a natural ally for the center-left coalition in the region which includes both members of the Progressive Union and reasonable and respectful Laborites.  Most importantly, you'd be a critical vote against the extreme policies the region's Federalists have tried to ram through.  We're gonna make a strong push to take back the Assembly and possibly the Governorship, but we'll need your support!  Thoughts?  Thanks and Dave bless :)

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lmao

Saved for posterity (http://i.imgur.com/HCYMg0q.png?1)

THIS IS GONNA BE A GREAT ENTRY IN LOVE TALES OF HAGRID & GRIFFIN

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Ah, but it was not one of us who told people to move somewhere. It was a certain Laborite who wanted to have a left leaning legislature and governorship. PJ probably just said "You can try to get the Progressives to move to the mideast" but he was not saying for them to move to the mideast, just saying that the person who will not be named can try to influence us to move here.

If it's Labor, it's X. If you're covering for your fellow progressives, it's Siren.

We're not covering kind sir. I leave it to you to make assumptions on who it was that reached out to all of us (including myself) to move.

I already know what happened here ::)

I said it was a Laborite, so it could be any of the following:

Averroës Nix
MalaspinaGold
MustCrushCapitalism
OAM
Njall
Sir John Johns
Adam OAOB
Mr. X
Gass3268 or
Snowstalker.

I will not name who it is.

There is no organized Labor plot to move individuals into such an awful region. Talleyrand wouldn't have left if that were the case. If I had my way, it'd be nuked.

Alright enough is enough.  When you Inks up, the only thing you can do is come clean.  I sure as hell am not gonna sit here and let the PU leadership dump something they were up to their eyeballs in at Labor's feet.  First, I deserve blame for this (along with the PU leadership) and no one else in Labor, I will not let my friends take the blame for my screw-up!  Siren had no part in this, so don't go blaming her for it either.  It is a shame that the PU leadership was willing to let people think it was her to try to save their own skin.  There were discussions about this and throughout them Flo, GAworth, and PJ knew full well about what was going on.  The PU leadership enthusiastically encouraged this.  The idea that it was just me sending PMs is a load of baloney and while I'd rather not leak them, I will say that I have the PMs to prove the active involvement of the PU leadership.  Flo himself implied that he didn't move to the Mideast simply because he couldn't move until February.  PJ absolutely sent PMs encouraging folks to move.  I was very mixed about this.  I thought several times I shouldn't do it and against my better judgement, I sent a rather hyperbolic PM to Marnetmar (who had already been PMed about this by the PU for the record) and felt awful about it the moment I sent it.  I try to set a high ethical standard for myself and I didn't meet it.  Over a Inks internet game of all things.  I can only say that I feel awful and am extremely sorry about this.  I hope you guys will give me another chance and ask for your forgiveness.

Good on ya Mr. X! Coming clean about these things is not something a lot of our Atlasian figures will do, and by apologizing you are a lot better than most.

Earning back trust will be difficult, but you're on the right path!

Is the fact that parties try to recruit people to certain regions tactically in any way controversial?

Thanks, I really appreciate it :)  That means a lot coming from you in particular, given the circumstances :P

lol

Hmm, I just gave my 1st preference to a PU candidate for presidency too. That might not happen again soon...

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Precisely. When Labor strategically recruits, all of Atlasia knows. Why anybody would want to take over such a naturally stable/hostile region is beyond me, but I'm glad it's been made clear that other parties are hypocrites when they say they don't do it.

I feel that the main issue comes from the fact that this was meant to be kept secret for whatever reason.

Looking back, it was probably me already feeling bad about it at an unconscious level.  When someone does something they feel bad about, they tend not to want the world to know :P  Strategically, it also makes sense to do it in secret.  The real issue is people being hypocritical about strategic registration.

I want to apologize as well, I threw X under the bus. I did tell him I would move, but I can't until February. This is the Progressive's fault.


You are right and I want to apologize, on behalf of my party, about this.

I want to ask for X's forgiveness in this, because I undoubtedly hurt him.

And I apologize to him for me being a douche.

I would also like to apologize for this. While X did PM me a week ago asking about this, I did volunteer to help him and I now realize that was the wrong decision. Up until this point, I had no involvement in strategic registration. I would like to clarify, this was the fault of a couple of Progressives and a Laborite, not the Progressive Union itself. Lumine, butafly, Siren, and other Progressives had nothing to do with this.

To clarify, this started less than a week ago and I asked your guys thoughts about the idea.  It sort of went from there.

I am offended I was not included in this grand conspiracy! :(

Seriously, I have thought about going in there and helping get rid of the few individuals who are embarrassing the Federalist party. Perhaps I have said too much, but that's how I roll.

Considering how the Labor's strategic registration in the IDS was received, I don't understand why some folks are making this into such a big deal. The only story I see here isn't what they did, it's how it was handled ever.

Public relations fail. Learning the ropes of this game takes time. :)

I should certainly hope so :P 

Meh. The biggest issue here is that someone posted a PM, which is against forum rules. It's legal to move wherever you want; let's not pretend otherwise.

No worries Mr. X.  I don't even think you did anything wrong, but I'm touched you stuck up for me.

Y'all are such drama queens.  :)

"Freedom's just another word....." ;)

I cannot load the first page of the thread to find out what is going on here exactly. The real scandal is that I am wasting so much time to try and load it. :P

This gets back to what I said before. At some point intensity goes to far and playing to win becomes win by any means necessary and that is not heathy for a political simulation where everything is fake anyway. People will get hurt and people will get pissed and someone will end up throwing up their hands and walking away as a result.

Also I would say that if the PROs are cannabalizing the Pacific to take over the Mideast, I think such will only be hurting the Pacific by restoring the region to its traditional one party domination and at the very least depriving it of activity and interest at a time when it desperately needs all it can get.

PRO has never had the intention of turning the Pacific into a one-party state. All registered Pacifican Progressives were already Pacificans when they registered as Progressives, or were new members.

Cut this crap out, or I will declare your party a terrorist organization. I am also offended I haven't been recruited to join your party. The gal you all have!

At least you got recruited by someone.  I feel so unloved..almost wishing to be strategically motivated :(

You misunderstood me. I said if you were moving people out, not in, then you would be moving it towards a one party state.

Moving PROs in would probably actually help, not hurt the Pacific most likely but that is beside the point.

Well, you'll always have thoughts of Duke/Cincy to warm your heart. :)

That's my point. They never recruited me either. You aren't alone. We were both discarded like ugly ducklings.

But really, I will not be afraid to tackle this threat head on like an NFL linebacker tackles a poor running back.

Cum join us in radical homosexual splendor! You know The Party is the only way forward et al such as the Iraq

My qualms aren't with the gays. I have always had one hand in their cookie jar, feeling around for the magic treasure and to see if I can get to the center of their tootsie pop before time expires.

Don't try to divert the spotlight off of our friends in the PU. They have wanted it so badly for weeks now, well, here it is. Embrace it like Vana White or Kim Kardashian. Just know that my eye is on you like the paparazzi's eyes were on Princess Diana right before she was murdered by the French. Play the game the right way, embrace the gays, and you'll find your life more peaceful and you'll avoid getting reprimanded by my secret police.

Please note, this thread doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever, but I am establishing myself as the Enforcer and Chief of this game we all know and love.

It sure is comforting to know that the enforcer has a "more-then-adequate" supply of strong drink. I can sleep in peace now. :P

See, it's sh**t like this that leads to certain regions having people leave them and come flooding to the Mideast.  I'd better not see Mr. X supporting regional consolidation and making the "the Pacific is too inactive" argument.

Look, I am going to say this and end my contribution to this shenanigan-filled event. I never believed, in strategic movement, now before people attack me for a hypocrisy, I moved to the Midwest on my own, no party and no individual told me to move here. I oppose parties telling people to move. Look this whole thing was private, it's no longer in private, and that is why everyone is up in arms. Come to my office, grab a snickers, and move on. If the CARCA plan passes or another form of consolidation happens, this whole shootin' match is negated.

I am not surprised but it's good to have clarity. Efforts by the left to make people strategically register in the Mideast have been going on for a very long time. I certainly have a lower opinion of some people in the Progressive Union now, though.

The amount of passive aggressiveness in this thread is pretty hilarious.  Honestly, I haven't been asking anyone to switch to the Mideast.

If someone thinks the Mideast is a fun place to be and wants to participate in what we have going on here, though, why the heck not?  It's a free country.  Nobody should have to stay some place they don't enjoy.  If people are coming to the Mideast, we should welcome them.  At least, that's what I would do if I was Governor.

For a long time there has been a more or less silent agreement in Atlasia that people should register in their real-life homestates. This makes sense because strategic registration severely hurts the game as evidenced by this very thread.

Firstly, the atmosphere in the game becomes worse because of strategic registration efforts. Nobody likes it if the region they have been part of for months or years is suddenly overrun by strategic registrants who have no affiliation to that region and whose sole job is to vote for or against a certain party. If the Federalist Party decided to make, say, three Northeastern and two Midwestern Federalists register in the Mideast a couple of days before an important election, I think the Mideast PU and Labor Party members wouldn't welcome them with open arms.

Secondly, as this case shows strategic registration leads to a drain of citizens in regions where new players are needed the most. The Pacific is the one Atlasian region which struggles most with activity, yet some people think it's smart to target real-life Pacificans as new recruits for the Mideast, the biggest and most active Atlasian region by far. The worst and most counterproductive thing to do at the moment is to weaken the Pacific even more for purely partisan reasons.

Finally, if one side starts serious efforts at strategic registration, the other side may feel compelled to react, which makes the situation all the more serious. In short, strategic registrations may benefit a particular political group in the short term but it's absolutely devastating for the game in the long run.

First, yes I would welcome people to the region, especially if they are interested in running for office but also even if not.  Right now, we don't have that many candidates or people interested in running.  That makes things kind of boring.  Having active elections with exciting candidates would be much better for the region.  If that means I get voted out of office, that's okay.  I'd just find something else to do.

Your argument forgets too that people aren't robots.  Nobody can make anyone join another region.  The best anyone could do is ask.  People are free to say "No, I don't want to switch regions."  They might also say, "Okay, great your region looks like fun."  There's really no coercion involved in that scenario.  I think you're crediting the parties with way more strength than they actually have.  I'd lean more towards thinking that people can think for themselves.

Also, there are already mechanisms in place to discourage blatant "strategic registration."  Once someone switches regions, they can't switch again for another six months.  That's a really long time, so anyone that changes regions has to be prepared to stay there for the long haul.  Regions also tend to invalidate votes of people that just switched within the last week.

The real-life home-states argument makes even less sense because we have so many people in the game that don't even live in the United States, including you.  People from other countries should get special treatment by getting a free pass to choose anyone they want, while Americans should be frowned upon for picking the state that they want?  That's a pretty ridiculous idea.

The most important point, though, is that this is supposed to be a game that's fun.  If someone isn't having fun, or they think they might have fun in a different region, "the state of regions" is pretty irrelevant.  People may as well just not play if they can't enjoy themselves.

I will reply to your post bit by bit.


The last point is certainly true for the Federalist Party, but when I read how President Nix refers to other Labor Party members as "soldiers" that are needed in other regions and when I see that the Labor Party has been pretty vocal about their past strategic registration attempts in the IDS, I must question that every player is as independent as we would like to think. There have been concerted efforts to make members of a particular party register in a particular region for short-term political gain, that's a fact.


This doesn't affect the effectiveness of strategic registration in any negative way. Parties can send some of their loyal "soldiers" from region A to region B and fill the void that has been created in region A with people from regions C and D. As for the invalidation of votes, only those votes cast by people who have moved to a particular region less than seven days before an election are invalidated. People who strategically register 8 or more days before the election are not affected by this rule. 


What should people who aren't from the US do, in your opinion? They have no other choice than to select a random region and, preferably, stay there for some time. For Americans, the easiest and the most logical decision is indeed to pick their home state. Of course, if a few Americans decide to register in an entirely different state that's fine but it gets problematic when new players are systematically encouraged by a certain party to register in a particular region.


That's indeed one of the key points: fun. But systematic attempts at strategic registration kill the fun for many. Again, it's not a problem if a few people decide on their own that they would like to register in a different region, but it's getting troubling for the game if it's done systematically by a particular party.

More than strategic recruitment, I'm more concerned about the party's leadership making deals or coalitions with other parties (or in this case, a member of another party) without even consulting the rest of the party or taking all positions into account (since, for the record, not all of us are center-left).

Organizing a crusade against the current Mideast leadership out of nowhere, even taking into account previous attempts from all parties to change the balance of power (which includes my recruitment attempts for the Midwest, Labor in the IDS and so forth) is something that I find unpleasant, to say the least.

That has never been my reason for supporting regional consolidation.

There has always been a gentlemen's agreement that you register in your home state, unless you are unamerican and then you're inherently dangerous and we must be suspicious of you anyway. ;)

Elections are boring? Okay. Let's reform this country. Reform =/ strategic registration.

We have seen in the past that this practice typically does more harm than good, but if the PU insists on doing it, at least be honest and don't pretend to be some goody two shoes group of kids that have never seen a woman's vagina and never cursed. I would at least respect you if nothing else.

That is why I like the Labor. They don't act like children when it comes to policy. Rather, they act like brave, handsome radical gay men. That is to be celebrated.

Then in that case, I have no problems.  As long as your consistent, I'm happy to agree to disagree. :)

Ditto.

I forgive the two of you for voting for a PU candidate over me. I'm sure you were told their candidate was pro-life and would fight to uphold the mideast abortion laws, right? ;)

This is a simulation, isn't it?

Yes, it is.  As Attorney General, this is probably something you should know.

You know, I think I may have to take back my comments in the main PU thread about how they were making the game less fun. *munches on popcorn*

Not sure why this is popcorn worthy. The straight-shooting Federalist Party has always been up against tactless schemes.

Since it seems like this is the thread to do it, can we also condemn the NM-AM for their strategic registration instead of just ganging up on the PU?

Sometimes but not always.  In the past, some people (though usually foreigners) have moved wherever the population is lowest.  Strategic registration has always been a concept, though.


To my knowledge, the revolution's spatial distribution is largely the result of Pacificans feeling most drawn to the NM-AM.

Lol, are you referring to Siren with those remarks in response to that argument?  It would be pretty hard for that bolded part to be true, considering she is a woman :P

Anywho, I honestly don't care either way about this argument.  If anything, I'm typically not too happy with the level of resistance here in the Mideast, or lack thereof to be specific.  They may be even more likely to get my first preference in the future.

I feel sorry for that SenatorTJ. You must awknowledge that I'm not a fan of this kind of tacting and many members of PRO neither fit on the same classification! Lumine, DemPGH and I were never fonds of that kind of stuff and I can say that I'm highly sad about this whole situation!

I don't have a dog in this fight, but this is like twilight zone. Where are all the assholes, denial, lies and bullsh**t accusations which you would normally expect in good 'ol Atlasia?

Incidentally, the reason I was caught off guard about this wasn't that there is strategic registration occurring, in fact I would have shocked if Labor wasn't trying to increase its influence in the Mideast. What surprised me was that PU was doing it to target the Mideast Federalists. I had not to this point considered the PU to generally be a party hostile to my region's leadership or any sort of enemy in the game.

Strategic registration is a bit like holding in football. It occurs to a certain extent very often, but whether or not it's called comes down to a question of how flagrant.

That's a bunch of crap. Xahar, Seatown and Fuzzy are the only Pacificans in that movement. Why is Bacon King registered in the Pacific now (although the election results would suggest he still thinks he is in the south)? Why is the cat freak lady registered in the Pacific? Why is Pkemp? Why is Cincinnatus?

lmao

(ftr I would have left the mideast anyway without rimjob because...well, look at the direction it's headed since then, and I was born/grew up in Cali and lived there longer than any other place by far)

1. I am very sorry to all the Federalists who feel as though they were betrayed by PRO. However, I must point out Lumine and Superique had no idea this was even going on. As far as voting for them, your decision should not be changed by this incident.

2. The personal message I sent to Marnetmar never said it was  secret and should he have decided to move to the mideast, it would have been a little obvious when it happened.

3. @ ZuWo: The following American Federalists are not registered in their home state IRL:

Goldwater
Dereich
Jack Enderman
SPC
PiT
MilesC56
Sbane

4. I'd like to clarify that I do not stand by this decision. I once more must apologize to everyone for these actions.

5. One more clarification: This was not strategic registration on the part of PRO. This was strategic registration among pro-choice leftists.

EDIT: I misunderstood a PM.

FTR, Bacon King voted in the IDS because of election law. He's a legal resident of the Pacific.

Who is the cat lady? Is she pretty?

Actually, I wasn't aware of any PMs to Laborites :P

I don't recall ever receiving a PM from you, would you mind sending it again?

It is a natural reaction and one shared by more then just Federalists I would imagine PJ. As I recall there are Pro-Life PROs as well as others who would have issues with it. Of course Lumine and Superique were out of the loop and that is why I actually sympathize greatly with them. I was denied votes as well during the RPP scandals of October 2009, which was stuff I opposed and tried to stop so I know what it is like. That is why a party's members should avoid these kinds of tactics for that reason, because their members will pay the price when it gets exposed and fellow members thus have an obligation to each other to keep things on the up and up.

One of the problems with the Pacific is no one ever has had the patience to build up a competative force there. They always just leave, which in turn makes it more boring and encourages more people to leave. Why would a Progressive Union member want to deprive a region of its own membership after having just come off the closest Regional Senate election in the country involving a Progressive Union member?



Atleast three of them are in the same region as their homestates. Dereich and sbane only recently left their home states for other states in the same region. Sbane may even have done it to fill in the gaps on the "Save our States" project thing, but I cannot recall.

PiT and SPC have been in the south for years and have had a strong connection to the place and its history and at the time they left, the Pacific was hardly hospitable territory if you weren't on bgwah's christmas card list.

a. I am also deeply sorry to all Progressives. The ones you have referred to have received my apologies in private.

b. Regardless of the reason, my point is that people don't have to register in their home state. Doesn't Sbane live in Tennessee IRL?

I recieved the PM from Mr. X, my apologies.

Ok but my point is, if you didn't receive a PM from me, why did you post this?

Those are Mr. X's words that Marnetmar posted.

Oh yeah, forgot all about that. I always associate him with California still.

The former two were registered in their home states - they only moved because you posted a thread whose title involved a lot of capital letters imploring them to move to Mississippi and Puerto Rico. Otherwise they'd still be registered in that same state. The latter two have a long-time connection to this region and have been in the South longer than you've been around.

what the f[inks] is going on here

Yeah, but I have spent most of my life in California and I have been registered in the Pacific since I was living there.

Or look at Xahar. Even though he doesn't live in the Pacific IRL anymore, I wouldn't consider it strategic registration for him to be in the Pacific because he has been registered there for a whole now, and grew up in California IRL. He even lost many regional Pacific Senate elections.

PJ told me prior to my PM, that he'd PMed Marnetmar about this and not heard back, but whatever.  It doesn't really matter much to me at this point, some people whose forum friendship I valued don't feel they can trust me any more, and that's what I'm upset about.  The point is that we shouldn't have been doing this and it reflects badly on all involved.  I include Marnetmar in that category, btw, because the more I think about it, it really wasn't right of him to post this either (especially given his reason for posting the PM).  I don't know what the deal is with him not receiving a PM from PJ, all I know about that is what PJ told me.

     I started off in the Pacific, and within a month moved to the South to take part in a rising conservative movement there. Nobody asked me to move; I just saw a cause and ran with it.

Yes, please don't lump people like PiT and SPC into this argument. No one asked them to move to the south. They joined the region during it's RENAISSANCE, where myself and many others brought it back from the brink of destruction and death. It is something we are all very proud of. I am offended that you have the audacity drag them down into the pits of hell with you and the PU!

Duke before the election:  I love everyone.  Everyone loves me.  Let's have a group hug.  <3

Duke after the election:  Burn in hell Progressive Union!!!

Surely you smell the satire in my posts, Siren. If you don't, it's going to be a long four months :P

I'm afraid I don't understand. I saw dishonesty and felt that it shouldn't be kept secret.Is this an invalid reason somehow? I don't care what party it is.

He's probably been hitting the adult beveridges again, man.

I never accused PiT, SPC, Enderman, Dereich or anyone else of strategic registration. My only point was that you don't have to be registered in your home state.

How many people were saying that you did?

PiT defended himself and SJoyce defended Dereich and Enderman.

No, I meant how many people were saying that you needed to be registered in your home state?

ZuWo:

Ah, I missed that. Although you should keep in mind that ZuWo doesn't speak for all opponents of strategic registration.

The purpose is to reduce the occurence of strategic Registration. If they are in the same Region as their home states, then it matters less so. It also allowed for mass recruitment drives on a non-partisan basis to occur, like the ones that Fritz pushed as President, without the concern that it would be hijacked by partisans in the process.

I myself am normally not a fan of strategic registration, and well I have worked to recruit citizens for PRO, I have never told them which region to move to. This occurrence, which I deeply regret, was not party business.

     I would point out that he said "should", not "should always" or "must", suggesting that it is more of a general prescription than an absolute one. I tend to agree with his statement, but it is each voter's right to register wherever. I made a decision to move to Louisiana, because it was something that I wanted to do.

I'm not gonna leak the PM, but that certainly wasn't the impression I got.  That may have been part of it, but it didn't sound like why you said you leaked it.  IIRC, you said you thought it would be fun and humorous to play Julian Assange when I asked you what would be gained from ruining my reputation and humiliating me in public over this since I had already told you that I regretted it and wasn't going to do it again (I forget the exact words, and no, you don't have permission to post those PMs just because I alludes to them) even before I knew you leaked it.  I could be wrong, but that doesn't sound like moral outrage so much as having fun at someone else's expense simply because you could.  Also I did let you know at least once (possibly twice, I forget) that posting PMs was against site policy, so it isn't like you didn't know better.  I think it is against ToS to post them, or at least gets you death points, but I could be wrong. 

Oh I am pretty sure he is one PM to Gustaf or Jedi away from it being deleted. Not surei f that means death points since I cannot recall whether that was done in the more recent examples on this board and most the instances that I recall were prior to the system's introduction. But it will definately be deleted.

Also this thread may end up locked as well.

You pointed out to me that this was a simulation game and wasn't to be taken seriously, so the mindset had shifted. In said simulation, I see an action that is morally wrong and expose it.

I said I thought some people took it too seriously, but I also said the other things.  You knew it was going to stop even if you didn't leak it.

What a mess this thread is. It makes me happy I'm still an independent and even happier that The People's Party was drama free during its time (internally at least). RIP The Party.

Wait, so there was taunting and bragging about the release of PMs in order to humiliate someone? X, I'd just post all of the PMs received in one place if I were you, since we're all being so "moral" and whatnot. You'll get 10 death points and it'll all be over. Sounds like the altruistic side of things is anything but that.

I'm finding the likelihood of this being some sort of sting or meatpuppetry rapidly approaching 100%. A player who joined during the zombie surge in the Pacific, held office but never actually swore in IIRC and went MIA before Rimjob, and who otherwise has done nothing within the game since joining suddenly has the moral motivation to expose some sort of sordid details?


Indeed. This may be the new substitute for Update in the meantime. :D