Atlas Forum

General Politics => Political Debate => Topic started by: dead0man on April 07, 2016, 08:17:45 am



Title: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: dead0man on April 07, 2016, 08:17:45 am
enjoy


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: afleitch on April 07, 2016, 08:40:33 am
enjoy

What's a Nazi wedding?


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: dead0man on April 07, 2016, 08:58:43 am
I would assume, if we're talking 2016 'murica, it would be a Nazi themed wedding.  Lots of swastikas, black boots and Charlie Chaplin mustaches.  Red and black would be the colors.

Something like this would be the cake
(http://www.thatsmags.com/uploads/picture/201310/13-10-CS-brides5_2592b02422.jpg)
obviously you want to adjust the names and dates to fit.

Or maybe cherry cream?
(http://www.streetcarnage.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/naziwedding.jpg)


wait, was that just a set up to a joke I don't know?....Nazi wedding.....not see wet...ting?..no...What's a Nazi wedding....hmmmm.....I don't get it, tell me the punch line!  <waits patiently>


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Sprouts Farmers Market ✘ on April 07, 2016, 10:31:16 am
Services should not be required to be rendered unto anyone.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: angus on April 07, 2016, 10:41:05 am
Black Forest cake might be more appropriate?


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: dead0man on April 07, 2016, 11:23:46 am
I think they like to be called Forest cake of color now.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Goldwater on April 07, 2016, 11:33:51 am
TBH, I think businesses should be allowed to deny service to anybody for any reason, but my namesake lost that battle over 50 years ago so whatever. :P


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Clark Kent on April 07, 2016, 12:16:34 pm
TBH, I think businesses should be allowed to deny service to anybody for any reason, but by namesake lost that battle over 50 years ago so whatever. :P


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: THIS MACHINE CRUSHES REGRESSIVES on April 07, 2016, 03:05:41 pm
Political allegiance isn't a protected class, nor should it be.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: SWE on April 07, 2016, 03:57:24 pm
TBH, I think businesses should be allowed to deny service to anybody for any reason, but by namesake lost that battle over 50 years ago so whatever. :P
Clark Kent was involved in the debate over the Civil Rights Act?


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Justice Blair on April 07, 2016, 04:20:03 pm
Yes of course....


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Oldiesfreak1854 on April 07, 2016, 04:49:22 pm
No.  And a Christian baker shouldn't be forced to bake a cake for a gay wedding.

Let me put it this way: if a homosexual couple asks for a wedding cake from a Christian baker, and the baker refuses, then I'm OK with it, because preparing the cake would endorse/condone something that violates the baker's religious beliefs.  But if the homosexual couple in question simply asks for a dozen donuts and the baker refuses, then that would clearly be discrimination.  Providing donuts, cookies, etc. for an LGBT couple is different from baking a wedding cake for them, because one violated the baker's religious beliefs, and the other does not. 

Simply put: if the requested service violates a specific tenet of the merchant's religious beliefs, then they should be allowed to refuse.  But if it's a simple service like a dozen donuts, cookies, etc., or a simple meal, or something of that sort, then they should not be allowed to discriminate.

I think they like to be called Forest cake of color now.
No, they're African American Forest cakes.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Oldiesfreak1854 on April 07, 2016, 04:51:36 pm
Services should not be required to be rendered unto anyone.
Translation: business owners should be allowed to ban blacks from their businesses.

Nice try, but I would argue that any business that provides a service to people is by definition public, and therefore can be regulated by the government.  It doesn't have to be government owned for the government to pass laws regarding their conduct.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Kingpoleon on April 07, 2016, 05:02:36 pm
No.

Wait, a gay Nazi wedding? Then yes.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Flow empty master, Humble being on April 07, 2016, 05:32:05 pm
Wait, isn't the swastika a peace symbol? :)


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Murica! on April 07, 2016, 05:39:24 pm
The difference between a Gay wedding and a Nazi one is that denying a Nazi wedding is a matter of free speech and not flat out discrimination, and I do believe most everyone here would agree that the business owner has the right to limit free speech on the property that they have no right to own.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Sprouts Farmers Market ✘ on April 07, 2016, 05:42:17 pm
Services should not be required to be rendered unto anyone.
Translation: business owners should be allowed to ban blacks from their businesses.

Nice try, but I would argue that any business that provides a service to people is by definition public, and therefore can be regulated by the government.  It doesn't have to be government owned for the government to pass laws regarding their conduct.

Just to clarify, it's services not products. And it has to be services that need to be done at-will. (This does not extend to housing obviously.) I can understand some disagreement there though, but I think that's a fair line.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Thunderbird is the word on April 07, 2016, 07:26:29 pm
Political allegiance isn't a protected class, nor should it be.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Derpist on April 07, 2016, 07:42:56 pm
They should be required to sell cakes to Nazis, but they cannot be forced to put a Swastika or anything Nazi on the cake.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Mr. Morden on April 08, 2016, 12:24:14 am
This is apparently the issue that will prevent Gary Johnson from getting the Libertarian presidential nomination:

http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2016/04/gary-johnson-jewish-bakers-should-be-forced-to-bake-nazi-cakes/


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: ○∙◄☻Ątπ[╪AV┼cVę└ on April 08, 2016, 12:29:13 am
I say let this guy figure it out. (I know he's dead)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burton_Joseph


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Old School Republican on April 08, 2016, 01:25:39 am
Yes any small business should have the right to deny services to any people they want for whatever reason.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Leinad on April 08, 2016, 03:56:17 am
TBH, I think businesses should be allowed to deny service to anybody for any reason

Yeah, I'd say this, but I'd encourage private citizens to protest discrimination.

I hate both discrimination and government forcing people to do things they don't want to do, because both are disasterous to society, but I don't think we have to choose between one or the other. Bigotry will still exist if there are laws against it, and societal pressure is a more powerful tool for shaping cultural attitudes towards things than government action ever will be.

I'm just opposed to the idea that government needs to actively punish something simply because it's "wrong," unless it's an objective crime (e.g. assault or theft--as terrible as bigotry is I don't think it counts) and I stay consistent with that admittedly "radical" conception of government. (Because I think it's correct.)

Then again...I sort of enjoy seeing people who, for so long, argued that something (marraige equality) shouldn't be allowed simply because their "morality" says it's wrong complain about getting punished because secular/objective morality says their behavior is wrong. "Shadenfreude" is the term.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Leinad on April 08, 2016, 03:58:21 am
This is apparently the issue that will prevent Gary Johnson from getting the Libertarian presidential nomination:

http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2016/04/gary-johnson-jewish-bakers-should-be-forced-to-bake-nazi-cakes/

No, I think he'll win it anyway on his (quite impressive, even for "big party" standards) resume, but the awkwardness and moderation might hurt himself with some of the more purist vote.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on April 08, 2016, 05:16:02 am
TBH, I think businesses should be allowed to deny service to anybody for any reason, but my namesake lost that battle over 50 years ago so whatever. :P

Keep swinging man, swing for the fences! :P


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: dead0man on April 08, 2016, 05:36:07 am
TBH, I think businesses should be allowed to deny service to anybody for any reason

Yeah, I'd say this, but I'd encourage private citizens to protest discrimination.

I hate both discrimination and government forcing people to do things they don't want to do, because both are disasterous to society, but I don't think we have to choose between one or the other. Bigotry will still exist if there are laws against it, and societal pressure is a more powerful tool for shaping cultural attitudes towards things than government action ever will be.

I'm just opposed to the idea that government needs to actively punish something simply because it's "wrong," unless it's an objective crime (e.g. assault or theft--as terrible as bigotry is I don't think it counts) and I stay consistent with that admittedly "radical" conception of government. (Because I think it's correct.)

Then again...I sort of enjoy seeing people who, for so long, argued that something (marraige equality) shouldn't be allowed simply because their "morality" says it's wrong complain about getting punished because secular/objective morality says their behavior is wrong. "Shadenfreude" is the term.
I very much agree with all this.  I think the benefit a lot of the kneejerk "no, and I see what you're..." voters don't understand.  If Bob's House of Wedding Cakes is a bigot and hates gay people, wouldn't you rather know that and NOT buy a cake from Bob's?  Steve's Emporium of Festive Cakes is right down the street with rainbow flags all over the store and 3 Miatas out front.  Why force money into the bigot's pocket just to prove a point?


Now if you're the only store within 500 miles that sells wedding cakes, yeah, perhaps it's in its all our interests to compel that store to make gay wedding cakes, but is that actually a thing?


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: michelle on April 08, 2016, 02:40:24 pm
The thing is, the Nazis killed 6 million Jews, while I don't think homosexuals have killed any Christians because they were Christian. And even if one has, it wasn't an organized act by all homosexuals.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Mr. Reactionary on April 08, 2016, 04:40:32 pm
TBH, I think businesses should be allowed to deny service to anybody for any reason

Yeah, I'd say this, but I'd encourage private citizens to protest discrimination.

I hate both discrimination and government forcing people to do things they don't want to do, because both are disasterous to society, but I don't think we have to choose between one or the other. Bigotry will still exist if there are laws against it, and societal pressure is a more powerful tool for shaping cultural attitudes towards things than government action ever will be.

I'm just opposed to the idea that government needs to actively punish something simply because it's "wrong," unless it's an objective crime (e.g. assault or theft--as terrible as bigotry is I don't think it counts) and I stay consistent with that admittedly "radical" conception of government. (Because I think it's correct.)


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Leinad on April 08, 2016, 06:01:35 pm
No.  And a Christian baker shouldn't be forced to bake a cake for a gay wedding.

Let me put it this way: if a homosexual couple asks for a wedding cake from a Christian baker, and the baker refuses, then I'm OK with it, because preparing the cake would endorse/condone something that violates the baker's religious beliefs.  But if the homosexual couple in question simply asks for a dozen donuts and the baker refuses, then that would clearly be discrimination.  Providing donuts, cookies, etc. for an LGBT couple is different from baking a wedding cake for them, because one violated the baker's religious beliefs, and the other does not. 

Simply put: if the requested service violates a specific tenet of the merchant's religious beliefs, then they should be allowed to refuse.  But if it's a simple service like a dozen donuts, cookies, etc., or a simple meal, or something of that sort, then they should not be allowed to discriminate.

No, it can't be based on religion. That's a terrible place to draw the line.

I mean, what qualifies as "religious reasons?" If I claim to believe in a religion called "Buttonism" and it was "against my religious beliefs to serve people who didn't wear a shirt with buttons," could I do that, in your world? And if not, is that not government discriminating (something I, and the Constitution, very much oppose) against Buttonism?

I know your position is that of many conservatives today (that government forcing people to not discriminate is alright, unless it's a--horror of horrors--same-sex wedding), but I think that that position is inconsistent in only including some forms of discrimination. In a way, it's discrimination by government, which is obviously wrong and, as I said before, unconstitutional.

Services should not be required to be rendered unto anyone.
Translation: business owners should be allowed to ban blacks from their businesses.

Nice try, but I would argue that any business that provides a service to people is by definition public, and therefore can be regulated by the government.  It doesn't have to be government owned for the government to pass laws regarding their conduct.

Interesting argument, but I wholeheartedly disagree. The idea that government has control over anything that is vaguely "public" might be the most statist thing I've ever heard (even including support for the draft, death penalty, etc.).


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Snowguy716 on April 08, 2016, 06:39:37 pm
I don't want people to be forced to do anything... but refusing service to people for things they can't control (like being gay) should be illegal.

Nazism is completely voluntary and is an ideology.  Being gay is innate sexuality.

Apples and oranges, dead0.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: SUSAN CRUSHBONE on April 09, 2016, 04:05:47 am
Services should not be required to be rendered unto anyone.
Translation: business owners should be allowed to ban blacks from their businesses.

Nice try, but I would argue that any business that provides a service to people is by definition public, and therefore can be regulated by the government.  It doesn't have to be government owned for the government to pass laws regarding their conduct.

Interesting argument, but I wholeheartedly disagree. The idea that government has control over anything that is vaguely "public" might be the most statist thing I've ever heard (even including support for the draft, death penalty, etc.).

regulation ≠ control

anyways snowguy's post sums up the answer perfectly


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Cranberry on April 09, 2016, 08:13:50 am
I think they like to be called Forest cake of color now.
No, they're African American Forest cakes.

You do realise that those cakes are named after the Black Forest mountain range in Germany?


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: dead0man on April 09, 2016, 10:55:01 am
Same place my hams and clocks come from.

(I don't actually have any cuckoo clocks, but I will inherit one)


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: PR on April 09, 2016, 11:10:20 am
I would assume, if we're talking 2016 'murica, it would be a Nazi themed wedding.  Lots of swastikas, black boots and Charlie Chaplin mustaches.  Red and black would be the colors.

Something like this would be the cake
(http://www.thatsmags.com/uploads/picture/201310/13-10-CS-brides5_2592b02422.jpg)
obviously you want to adjust the names and dates to fit.

Or maybe cherry cream?
(http://www.streetcarnage.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/naziwedding.jpg)


wait, was that just a set up to a joke I don't know?....Nazi wedding.....not see wet...ting?..no...What's a Nazi wedding....hmmmm.....I don't get it, tell me the punch line!  <waits patiently>

So the couple would presumably name their kids (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/31/adolf-hitler-campbell-custody-battle-nazi-names-new-jersey_n_1561046.html) Adolf Hitler (last name), "Aryan Nation" (lmao), etc.?


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: #TheShadowyAbyss on April 09, 2016, 06:48:55 pm
No, they shouldn't.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Leinad on April 09, 2016, 09:43:07 pm
regulation ≠ control

Eh, I guess, but regulation is merely a lesser form of control. It's the same thing, just in different quantities, and government is a machine for turning inches into miles, to borrow and alter the expression.

I don't want people to be forced to do anything... but refusing service to people for things they can't control (like being gay) should be illegal.

Nazism is completely voluntary and is an ideology.  Being gay is innate sexuality.

Apples and oranges, dead0.

Of course it's different, so it's a silly question. (But I think that's partially the idea of the thread?)

I'd agree that bigotry is bad and should obviously be punished by someone. But (and this applies to everything) I don't think the question should be "should this be done?" but "should this be done by government?" A major difference between libertarians and everyone else is that we ask the second question all the time, while everyone else seems to ask the first question for most issues. I think it's best to ask the second question and err on the side of "probably not" due to the theoretically near-absolute power government has (I think of the George Washington quote--"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master") and also due to the fact that societal pressure is often more effective than legislation.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: This account no longer in use. on April 09, 2016, 10:03:04 pm
No; being gay (something you can't change) is not on the level of being a Nazi (something you can change), and if you think that it is, frankly, you're a goddamn fool.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: dax00 on April 15, 2016, 04:51:48 pm
If one offers a service to the public realm, said service should not be denied for any ambiguous reason whatsoever (i.e. running out of stock or shutting down are not ambiguous and therefore okay reasons). It is up to the employer what to do if an individual employee refuses to comply. If a Jewish employer told his employee not to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding, that would not be okay. If an employer told his Jewish employee to bake the cake for the Nazi wedding or else get terminated, that would be okay. A good compromise would be to dock the Jewish baker's pay and have one of the other bakers there make the cake. If all the bakers there are Jewish and Nazis request for them to make a cake, it has got to be made.

You can as easily substitute the words 'Christian' for 'Jewish' and 'gay' for 'Nazi'. The principle is the same, and I remain consistent.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: True Federalist on April 16, 2016, 07:57:53 pm
Define "public service". Granted, it certainly is upsetting to be told by a bigot that they won't bake your wedding cake, but even if every baker within 100 miles refuses, denying people equal access to wedding cakes only rises to the level of insult and not to the level of denying people what they need to function. Wedding cakes are not jobs and they are not places to live.  They are not a necessary part of anything essential such as the ability to move freely from place to place or the ability to be safe in one's own person. (Tho they may serve as a marker of where that ability may be in danger.)

Basically, I don't acknowledge the existence of a right to be not insulted, and I don't see failure to bake custom wedding cakes as rising beyond the level of an insult.  (Now if a baker had ready-made generic wedding cakes for sale, that would be different, because at that point it is a good rather than a service, and goods don't imply personal involvement.)


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: beaver2.0 on April 18, 2016, 09:26:18 am
No.  And a Christian baker shouldn't be forced to bake a cake for a gay wedding.

Let me put it this way: if a homosexual couple asks for a wedding cake from a Christian baker, and the baker refuses, then I'm OK with it, because preparing the cake would endorse/condone something that violates the baker's religious beliefs.  But if the homosexual couple in question simply asks for a dozen donuts and the baker refuses, then that would clearly be discrimination.  Providing donuts, cookies, etc. for an LGBT couple is different from baking a wedding cake for them, because one violated the baker's religious beliefs, and the other does not. 

Simply put: if the requested service violates a specific tenet of the merchant's religious beliefs, then they should be allowed to refuse.  But if it's a simple service like a dozen donuts, cookies, etc., or a simple meal, or something of that sort, then they should not be allowed to discriminate.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Bismarck on May 14, 2016, 04:13:17 pm
Hmm, I think either all discrimination is okay or none is. The problem with these religous freedom laws is that they essentially single out gays as a special group that can be targeted. So obviously no a Jewish bake shouldn't have to make a nazi cake.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Figueira on May 14, 2016, 05:21:38 pm
No; being gay (something you can't change) is not on the level of being a Nazi (something you can change), and if you think that it is, frankly, you're a goddamn fool.

Even if you could change being gay, it still wouldn't be OK to discriminate against them.

For example, let's say Bob is bisexual, and he's marrying Joe. Bob could have chosen to marry Alice instead, but it would still be discrimination to refuse to bake a cake for Bob and Joe's wedding.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: RightBehind on May 14, 2016, 06:33:58 pm
Political allegiance isn't a protected class, nor should it be.

So you think it's okay to fire a person for their political beliefs and that employers should tell employees who to vote for?

Also, regarding the question, it boggles my mind that people think there's a real thing as the Gaystapo.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Asian Nazi on May 14, 2016, 07:16:36 pm
Anybody who has a Nazi wedding should be shot.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: nclib on May 14, 2016, 08:05:11 pm
The thing is, the Nazis killed 6 million Jews, while I don't think homosexuals have killed any Christians because they were Christian. And even if one has, it wasn't an organized act by all homosexuals.

Exactly. Also, Nazism is inherently anti-Jewish and homosexuality is not inherently anti-Christian (and Christianity is not inherently anti-homosexuality for that matter). Even if homosexuals' existence/lifestyle is perceived by some Christians as offensive, they are not doing it for the purpose of harming/offending Christians.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Seneca on May 16, 2016, 05:08:33 pm
No, and the Nazis buying the cake should have the sh**t beat out of them.

As to gay wedding cakes, if a business is not going to sell a cake to a gay couple the government shouldn't do anything, but it wouldn't be a tragedy if that business was burnt to the ground.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Finally in New Jersey on May 18, 2016, 01:16:44 am
The thing is, the Nazis killed 6 million Jews, while I don't think homosexuals have killed any Christians because they were Christian. And even if one has, it wasn't an organized act by all homosexuals.

Exactly. Also, Nazism is inherently anti-Jewish and homosexuality is not inherently anti-Christian (and Christianity is not inherently anti-homosexuality for that matter). Even if homosexuals' existence/lifestyle is perceived by some Christians as offensive, they are not doing it for the purpose of harming/offending Christians.

Proof?


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: nclib on May 18, 2016, 09:52:57 pm
The thing is, the Nazis killed 6 million Jews, while I don't think homosexuals have killed any Christians because they were Christian. And even if one has, it wasn't an organized act by all homosexuals.

Exactly. Also, Nazism is inherently anti-Jewish and homosexuality is not inherently anti-Christian (and Christianity is not inherently anti-homosexuality for that matter). Even if homosexuals' existence/lifestyle is perceived by some Christians as offensive, they are not doing it for the purpose of harming/offending Christians.

Proof?

Not an expert on Christian law, but there are plenty of churches/denominations/sects in/of Christianity that do approve of homosexuality. Regardless, that is not relevant to this question as I have addressed in my post.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: DavidB. on May 19, 2016, 11:55:21 am
Anybody who has a Nazi wedding should be shot.
(normal)

And anyone who thinks Jewish bakers should be forced to bake fcking Nazi birthday cakes is a fascist.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: ingemann on May 21, 2016, 03:36:14 pm
No and I think it's a rather stupid question and the better question would be: "Should a Nazi baker be forced to bake a cake for a Jewish wedding? And to that question the answer would be; Yes.
.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: LLR on May 25, 2016, 08:27:31 pm
Nazism is a horrible oppressive ideology that killed 6 million of my people. Homosexuality never harmed a soul.

"I see what you're trying to do here and it's not gonna work"


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: dax00 on May 27, 2016, 12:27:12 pm
In short, all cake baking offered to the public must me done at any given establishment. If a particular baker refuses for any reason, the employer should reserve the right to terminate said baker.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: ˘®🅰ß 🦀 ©@k€ 🎂 on May 27, 2016, 01:46:22 pm
The argument baffles me. Surely cake making is the gayest of all arts?


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: BWP Conservative on October 04, 2017, 11:36:25 pm
No, and the Nazis buying the cake should have the sh**t beat out of them.

As to gay wedding cakes, if a business is not going to sell a cake to a gay couple the government shouldn't do anything, but it wouldn't be a tragedy if that business was burnt to the ground.
Yay.  antifa is on Atlas forums.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: BWP Conservative on October 04, 2017, 11:37:34 pm
No and I think it's a rather stupid question and the better question would be: "Should a Nazi baker be forced to bake a cake for a Jewish wedding? And to that question the answer would be; Yes.
.
Don't you see the hypocrisy in that statement?   BTW, I don't believe in forcing people to provide services period.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: BWP Conservative on October 04, 2017, 11:39:31 pm
Of course the baker shouldn't be forced.  It shouldn't matter if the baker is Jewish or if the customer is a Nazi, you have the right to refuse service to anyone. 


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Lechasseur on October 05, 2017, 04:21:42 am
Of course the baker shouldn't be forced.  It shouldn't matter if the baker is Jewish or if the customer is a Nazi, you have the right to refuse service to anyone. 

This


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: John A. MacDonald on October 05, 2017, 05:17:26 am
Yes


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: vanguard96 on October 10, 2017, 01:33:30 pm
The Gary Johnson question.

My answer is no.

The market would be such that there would be very little negative impact in refusing to bake for a Nazi wedding. Most people would applaud it.

In a city of even moderate size - like Grand Rapids, MI or Knoxville, TN you would expect to see some negative impact if a place habitually refused to serve people because of their sexuality or religion for instance. The owners / proprietors may quickly be the victim of an online campaign, boycotts and such. Both the right and the left are increasingly using this strategy.

In a very homogenous, monocultural, single-ideology area the market repercussions of refusing to do business with others based on bigotry may be more insulated. This is largely due to the limited widespread appeal of the location and perhaps the insular 'keep it to ourselves' mindset. Thus a small town's residents would likely have fewer objections with a photographer that did not do gay weddings and he or she may never receive any reprimand but if a gay couple asked they would likely find another appointment on that day.



Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: #KavanaughForPrison on October 10, 2017, 01:44:59 pm
yes because society should not be combining weddings with ideology/politics/religion/identity

(also, I am the type of person who would have been sent to the concentration camps in Nazi Germany if I was in the area during the regime)


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: The Govanah Jake on October 10, 2017, 03:04:31 pm
Option 3 but of the above two then no they shouldn't be forced too. They should have every right to refuse work because the baker isn't a slave to the customer. They have the right to refuse service to someone else even if it is morally wrong. It may not be smart economics for the baker because the baker is deliberately losing potential capital from the customer and i wouldn't advise any baker to refuse a potential source of work if there is capital to be earned and they baker wants to be financially safe and successful. It is just plan stupid but if the baker feels morally obliged to refuse to work in this case he should have no restrictions from the government as long as it is not going against any race based discrimination laws to prevent anything like segregation from occurring. Also if that person who refuses to work for someone else based on morality or something of that nature and that person is a employee of someone else then the employee also has every right to fire that person. And also as a final point Nazi weddings or a wedding that involves politics or identity is kind of going against the entire concept of a wedding being between two people and not one select ideology,race,religion, or identity.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: The Mikado on October 12, 2017, 12:51:22 pm
Of course. It'd be a great chance to lace the cake with cyanide and dramatically improve the local community.

NB. This post should not be taken as an endorsement of murder. It is hyperbole meant to indicate my distaste and hostility towards Nazis.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: JonHawk on October 12, 2017, 04:22:28 pm
No but the Liberals love hypocrisy


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: BWP Conservative on October 20, 2017, 01:12:48 am
your answer to the forcing the baker to make a gay wedding cake and forcing them to make the Nazi cake should be the same.
if your answer is:
Yes/Yes, you are a consistent authoritarian
Yes/No you are an inconsistent SJW
No/Yes you are alt-right
No/No, you are a libertarian or a conservative


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Kingpoleon on October 21, 2017, 06:42:33 pm
CLICK HERE TO FIND OUT YOUR IDEOLOGY WITH JUST TWO SIMPLE QUESTIONS!!!


your answer to the forcing the baker to make a gay wedding cake and forcing them to make the Nazi cake should be the same.
if your answer is:
Yes/Yes, you are a consistent authoritarian
Yes/No you are an inconsistent SJW
No/Yes you are alt-right
No/No, you are a libertarian or a conservative


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: 2,868,691 on October 21, 2017, 11:57:22 pm
Depends if there is a reasonable expectation of making a Nazi cake.

In general no, but if Goldberg's House of Offensive Cakes probably does.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: pbrower2a on October 22, 2017, 02:14:05 pm
You missed one with the slogan ARBEIT MACHT FREI.

...Gays and lesbians do not persecute straight people.

The only rationale for making  such a cake would be theatrical. Thus if Mel Brooks commissions it for a comedy spoofing Nazis I would do it. But if it is made to promote Nazism I would reject it and give a reason such as "for the same reason that I would never make a cake bearing the words "F--- YOU!"

I would not make a cake shaped like a coffin or a cemetery stone that reads "Pay up or die" on behalf of a loan shark. Or one with suggestion of pedophilia. Or one celebrating the September 11 attack. On  the other hand... maybe I would make one of those cakes in cooperation with law enforcement a snare for someone who deserves to be arrested. The cake would probably be inedible -- you know, made with wood shavings or old newspapers... as evidence of a crime.   

Of course it is possible that someone could get a rather plain cake and decorate it as he wishes -- even with a swastika or Nazi slogans, or many other possible offenses. 



What someone does with the cake


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Pennsylvania Deplorable on November 25, 2017, 01:59:20 am
TBH, I think businesses should be allowed to deny service to anybody for any reason, but my namesake lost that battle over 50 years ago so whatever. :P
I agree for small businesses, but not large corporations. Imagine if internet service providers could just block websites they dislike or power companies shut off electricity to political dissidents. That's quite different from bakers not making cakes for gay weddings or the gym that expelled Richard Spencer, for example.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: fhtagn on November 25, 2017, 07:43:04 am
Of course the baker shouldn't be forced.  It shouldn't matter if the baker is Jewish or if the customer is a Nazi, you have the right to refuse service to anyone. 

This

^

Saying it again for the people in the back. 


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: WMS on November 25, 2017, 05:56:01 pm
Of course. It'd be a great chance to lace the cake with cyanide and dramatically improve the local community.

NB. This post should not be taken as an endorsement of murder. It is hyperbole meant to indicate my distaste and hostility towards Nazis.


That would just create martyrs. Lace it with laxatives instead. :)


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Ghost of Ruin on November 25, 2017, 08:13:28 pm
I guess conservatives are worried they won't be able to find bakers for their forced marriages to child brides?


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: BWP Conservative on November 26, 2017, 10:24:11 pm
CLICK HERE TO FIND OUT YOUR IDEOLOGY WITH JUST TWO SIMPLE QUESTIONS!!!


your answer to the forcing the baker to make a gay wedding cake and forcing them to make the Nazi cake should be the same.
if your answer is:
Yes/Yes, you are a consistent authoritarian
Yes/No you are an inconsistent SJW
No/Yes you are alt-right
No/No, you are a libertarian or a conservative
not your entire ideology but it tests whether you are a hypocrite or not!


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: scopes monkey trial on December 04, 2017, 09:21:34 pm
generally speaking, I don't think the goverment should force a business to do anything without a legal basis for doing so, you have to look at these things in a case by case basis for example if a  jewish bakery  advertises that they cater to weddings but they find out that one of there costumers is a Nazi so they decide to refuse that person service because of that person political beliefs, then I think you could make the argument that that business misrepresented its self and maybe they should be forced to to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding.

but should a Nazi bakery be forced to bake a cake for a jewish wedding? open you mind and open your hearts to find the answer to that question me fellow atlasins.  


 


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: ❤️❤️❤️ on December 06, 2017, 04:41:56 pm
CLICK HERE TO FIND OUT YOUR IDEOLOGY WITH JUST TWO SIMPLE QUESTIONS!!!


your answer to the forcing the baker to make a gay wedding cake and forcing them to make the Nazi cake should be the same.
if your answer is:
Yes/Yes, you are a consistent authoritarian
Yes/No you are an inconsistent SJW
No/Yes you are alt-right
No/No, you are a libertarian or a conservative
not your entire ideology but it tests whether you are a hypocrite or not!
Or you don't consider "wants to literally murder millions" deserving of the same protections as "likes people of the same gender".


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: ElectionsGuy on December 08, 2017, 01:14:37 am
TBH, I think businesses should be allowed to deny service to anybody for any reason

Yeah, I'd say this, but I'd encourage private citizens to protest discrimination.

I hate both discrimination and government forcing people to do things they don't want to do, because both are disasterous to society, but I don't think we have to choose between one or the other. Bigotry will still exist if there are laws against it, and societal pressure is a more powerful tool for shaping cultural attitudes towards things than government action ever will be.

Right on.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Medal506 on December 16, 2017, 12:34:38 am
Political allegiance isn't a protected class, nor should it be.

We should have no protected classes since in the United States we should be equally protected under the law


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Medal506 on December 16, 2017, 12:39:30 am
The difference between a Gay wedding and a Nazi one is that denying a Nazi wedding is a matter of free speech and not flat out discrimination, and I do believe most everyone here would agree that the business owner has the right to limit free speech on the property that they have no right to own.

Dumbass denying a gay wedding is also a matter of free speech and it's not discrimination. If you deny service to someone simply because they're gay then yes that is discrimination and you either should be allowed to discriminate against anyone or not allowed to discriminate against anyone. In other words since we're a country where everyone is equal under the law I'd you are required to service a gay couplethen you have to be required to service a nazi couple. Or if you're allowed to discriminate against the nazi couple then you should be allowed to discriminate against the gay couple. That's basically just called being consistent and not a dumbass socialist.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Medal506 on December 16, 2017, 12:41:14 am
No, and the Nazis buying the cake should have the sh**t beat out of them.

As to gay wedding cakes, if a business is not going to sell a cake to a gay couple the government shouldn't do anything, but it wouldn't be a tragedy if that business was burnt to the ground.

Someone's frustrated he can't get laid


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Kingpoleon on December 24, 2017, 04:07:16 pm
CLICK HERE TO FIND OUT YOUR IDEOLOGY WITH JUST TWO SIMPLE QUESTIONS!!!


your answer to the forcing the baker to make a gay wedding cake and forcing them to make the Nazi cake should be the same.
if your answer is:
Yes/Yes, you are a consistent authoritarian
Yes/No you are an inconsistent SJW
No/Yes you are alt-right
No/No, you are a libertarian or a conservative
not your entire ideology but it tests whether you are a hypocrite or not!
First of all, not everybody has to be a “libertarian/conservative,” “alt-right” or an “inconsistent SJW”. You continue to derogate Democrats, which merely serves to expose your own partisan idiocy and inconsistency. I disagree with the position of people who would say you have to make a cake for a gay couple, but I don’t start calling them names for it. That’s where you went wrong.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: megameow on January 05, 2018, 05:10:04 am
Yeah, frankly the law is clear. There are specific protected classes of historically marginalized minority groups; based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, disability, etc. Political affiliation isn't on that list. So, denying service to someone based on their politics isn't illegal, but doing so based on sexuality is.

Is that right? Should it be different? I think the law right now is fine; it generally protects people based on immutable characteristics (with religion as an exception). It applies to everyone equally to; I can't deny service to a straight couple because they're heterosexual. A Nazi can refuse to serve a Communist, and vice-versa.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: megameow on January 05, 2018, 05:16:57 am
I think people here may need reminding as to why anti-discrimination statutes were created to begin with. Black people were being denied service in public establishments across the country, forced to either find somewhere else to do business or create their own establishments that would serve them. It was a case of separate-but-equal.

Let's remember too the harms to an individual when they're discriminated against in public accommodations. Say they need to stay in a hotel in town for a job interview. Uh-oh, the hotel refuses to rent them a room. No job interview; no job. Economic harm.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Medal506 on January 08, 2018, 11:50:24 pm
Yeah, frankly the law is clear. There are specific protected classes of historically marginalized minority groups; based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, disability, etc. Political affiliation isn't on that list. So, denying service to someone based on their politics isn't illegal, but doing so based on sexuality is.

Is that right? Should it be different? I think the law right now is fine; it generally protects people based on immutable characteristics (with religion as an exception). It applies to everyone equally to; I can't deny service to a straight couple because they're heterosexual. A Nazi can refuse to serve a Communist, and vice-versa.


Dumbass there's no law in the United States that says bakers have to serve gay wedding cakes and there shouldn't be any protected classes since we're all supposed to be equal under the law


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: megameow on January 09, 2018, 01:56:14 am
Yeah, frankly the law is clear. There are specific protected classes of historically marginalized minority groups; based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, disability, etc. Political affiliation isn't on that list. So, denying service to someone based on their politics isn't illegal, but doing so based on sexuality is.

Is that right? Should it be different? I think the law right now is fine; it generally protects people based on immutable characteristics (with religion as an exception). It applies to everyone equally to; I can't deny service to a straight couple because they're heterosexual. A Nazi can refuse to serve a Communist, and vice-versa.


Dumbass there's no law in the United States that says bakers have to serve gay wedding cakes and there shouldn't be any protected classes since we're all supposed to be equal under the law

I should clarify then, only in states and jurisdictions where anti-discrimination laws are on the books (which includes many states for LGBT, and federal law for race, religion, and gender), are there "specific protected classes of historically marginalized minority groups." It's debatable whether bakers who are morally opposed to same-sex marriage have to serve a cake to the couple. In my estimation, the bakers are admittedly denying service to the couple because of their sexual orientation (they don't want to serve a homosexual wedding, whereas they'd be fine with a heterosexual one). Therefore I think that that would be illegal according to anti-discrimination laws.

"Protected classes" are not specific groups of people, nor do they accord any additional rights to anyone compared to others. Protected classes, at least the way I used that term in what I said, means attributes of individuals that cannot be the basis for discrimination. 100% of citizens have a race, gender, sexuality, or religious belief. Therefore, 100% of citizens are protected by anti-discrimination laws and are in "protected classes." The impetus for creating the laws however was/is to specifically defend historically marginalized minorities from being discriminated against by those in the majority; anti-discrimination laws aim to protect minority rights and ensure that everyone is "equal under the law."

Hope that cleared up what I was saying, because I don't think you understood me well. Also, it is probably against forum rules for you to call me a "dumbass" like that, but I won't report you.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Cold War Liberal on January 10, 2018, 11:46:16 am
Yeah, frankly the law is clear. There are specific protected classes of historically marginalized minority groups; based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, disability, etc. Political affiliation isn't on that list. So, denying service to someone based on their politics isn't illegal, but doing so based on sexuality is.

Is that right? Should it be different? I think the law right now is fine; it generally protects people based on immutable characteristics (with religion as an exception). It applies to everyone equally to; I can't deny service to a straight couple because they're heterosexual. A Nazi can refuse to serve a Communist, and vice-versa.


Dumbass there's no law in the United States that says bakers have to serve gay wedding cakes and there shouldn't be any protected classes since we're all supposed to be equal under the law
Here's the key phrase. It doesn't always work that way in practice, like when, say, a baker denies basic goods and services to a couple because the baker doesn't agree with them personally.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: scopes monkey trial on January 10, 2018, 08:27:00 pm
CLICK HERE TO FIND OUT YOUR IDEOLOGY WITH JUST TWO SIMPLE QUESTIONS!!!


your answer to the forcing the baker to make a gay wedding cake and forcing them to make the Nazi cake should be the same.
if your answer is:
Yes/Yes, you are a consistent authoritarian
Yes/No you are an inconsistent SJW
No/Yes you are alt-right
No/No, you are a libertarian or a conservative

LOL.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Kingpoleon on January 11, 2018, 07:03:45 pm
Yeah, frankly the law is clear. There are specific protected classes of historically marginalized minority groups; based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, disability, etc. Political affiliation isn't on that list. So, denying service to someone based on their politics isn't illegal, but doing so based on sexuality is.

Is that right? Should it be different? I think the law right now is fine; it generally protects people based on immutable characteristics (with religion as an exception). It applies to everyone equally to; I can't deny service to a straight couple because they're heterosexual. A Nazi can refuse to serve a Communist, and vice-versa.


Dumbass there's no law in the United States that says bakers have to serve gay wedding cakes and there shouldn't be any protected classes since we're all supposed to be equal under the law

Why did you immediately resort to name-calling??


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: megameow on January 12, 2018, 12:27:45 am
Yeah, frankly the law is clear. There are specific protected classes of historically marginalized minority groups; based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, disability, etc. Political affiliation isn't on that list. So, denying service to someone based on their politics isn't illegal, but doing so based on sexuality is.

Is that right? Should it be different? I think the law right now is fine; it generally protects people based on immutable characteristics (with religion as an exception). It applies to everyone equally to; I can't deny service to a straight couple because they're heterosexual. A Nazi can refuse to serve a Communist, and vice-versa.


Dumbass there's no law in the United States that says bakers have to serve gay wedding cakes and there shouldn't be any protected classes since we're all supposed to be equal under the law

Why did you immediately resort to name-calling??

I really want his reply to my argument too. D:


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: SWE on January 12, 2018, 04:09:53 pm
your answer to the forcing the baker to make a gay wedding cake and forcing them to make the Nazi cake should be the same.
if your answer is:
Yes/Yes, you are a consistent authoritarian
Yes/No you are an inconsistent SJW
No/Yes you are alt-right
No/No, you are a libertarian or a conservative
Ah yes, the four genders


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: PR on January 18, 2018, 03:53:02 pm
your answer to the forcing the baker to make a gay wedding cake and forcing them to make the Nazi cake should be the same.
if your answer is:
Yes/Yes, you are a consistent authoritarian
Yes/No you are an inconsistent SJW
No/Yes you are alt-right
No/No, you are a libertarian or a conservative
Ah yes, the four genders

Can't argue with The Political Compass (TM).


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Torie on January 20, 2018, 11:29:15 am
I don't think anyone should be forced to bake a cake that has a theme on it that they dislike. But one should not discriminate based on the status of the buyer. So the baker has to sell a cake to a Nazi for a Nazi wedding, if the cake itself is a Nazi free zone. I draw a distinction between denying over the counter sales, and personal services.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: #KavanaughForPrison on January 20, 2018, 11:35:47 am
I don't think anyone should be forced to bake a cake that has a theme on it that they dislike. But one should not discriminate based on the status of the buyer. So the baker has to sell a cake to a Nazi for a Nazi wedding, if the cake itself is a Nazi free zone. I draw a distinction between denying over the counter sales, and personal services.
This


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: teafarm99 on February 18, 2018, 12:14:44 pm
No cakes for either Nazis or Homos unless there is consent!!


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Badger on February 26, 2018, 11:39:05 am
Yeah, frankly the law is clear. There are specific protected classes of historically marginalized minority groups; based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, disability, etc. Political affiliation isn't on that list. So, denying service to someone based on their politics isn't illegal, but doing so based on sexuality is.

Is that right? Should it be different? I think the law right now is fine; it generally protects people based on immutable characteristics (with religion as an exception). It applies to everyone equally to; I can't deny service to a straight couple because they're heterosexual. A Nazi can refuse to serve a Communist, and vice-versa.

Correct answer, fwiw


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Finally in New Jersey on June 09, 2018, 11:50:38 pm
According to the Supreme Court, no.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: Mr. Morden on June 10, 2018, 12:21:36 pm
I'm kind of a moderate hero on this question: If the Jewish baker refuses to bake the cake for a Nazi wedding, then he should be forced to instead bake a cake for a Nazi divorce.  He should be forced to affirm either Nazi happiness or sorrow.  Indifference is not allowed.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: ProudModerate3 on June 10, 2018, 02:55:58 pm
A private business owner should have full discretion in regards of who they do business with, and should never be required to make a sale or perform a service for anyone they don't want to.

If a business owner wants to be bigoted and hateful towards customers of a certain category, it's unfortunate, but that's his/her choice. Their community of customers will probably boycott their business and pressure them into either a) changing course or b) closing their doors.
Obviously essential services such as pharmacies, hospitals, etc. must be required to serve everyone, but most other businesses should not.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: oreomilkshake on June 10, 2018, 05:22:05 pm
A private business owner should have full discretion in regards of who they do business with, and should never be required to make a sale or perform a service for anyone they don't want to.

If a business owner wants to be bigoted and hateful towards customers of a certain category, it's unfortunate, but that's his/her choice. Their community of customers will probably boycott their business and pressure them into either a) changing course or b) closing their doors.
Obviously essential services such as pharmacies, hospitals, etc. must be required to serve everyone, but most other businesses should not.

for lgbt people?i wish that was true.but we can't take it as a certainty yet.sad


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: 2,868,691 on June 10, 2018, 07:37:43 pm
A private business owner should have full discretion in regards of who they do business with, and should never be required to make a sale or perform a service for anyone they don't want to.

If a business owner wants to be bigoted and hateful towards customers of a certain category, it's unfortunate, but that's his/her choice. Their community of customers will probably boycott their business and pressure them into either a) changing course or b) closing their doors.
Obviously essential services such as pharmacies, hospitals, etc. must be required to serve everyone, but most other businesses should not.


If you're really from Alabama you know this isn't true for large swaths of America. In many rural/Southern areas, it's more likely that churches will start boycotting bakeries that do serve gays than any significant boycott of a bakery that refuses them.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: MarkD on June 11, 2018, 02:57:25 pm
A private business owner should have full discretion in regards of who they do business with, and should never be required to make a sale or perform a service for anyone they don't want to.

If a business owner wants to be bigoted and hateful towards customers of a certain category, it's unfortunate, but that's his/her choice. Their community of customers will probably boycott their business and pressure them into either a) changing course or b) closing their doors.
Obviously essential services such as pharmacies, hospitals, etc. must be required to serve everyone, but most other businesses should not.


"Should have" that prerogative is a far-fetched wish. It is settled law that the federal government can make businesses like restaurants and hotels eliminate racial discrimination from their business practices.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katzenbach_v._McClung (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katzenbach_v._McClung)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_Atlanta_Motel,_Inc._v._United_States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_Atlanta_Motel,_Inc._v._United_States)


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: ProudModerate3 on June 11, 2018, 10:41:52 pm
A private business owner should have full discretion in regards of who they do business with, and should never be required to make a sale or perform a service for anyone they don't want to.

If a business owner wants to be bigoted and hateful towards customers of a certain category, it's unfortunate, but that's his/her choice. Their community of customers will probably boycott their business and pressure them into either a) changing course or b) closing their doors.
Obviously essential services such as pharmacies, hospitals, etc. must be required to serve everyone, but most other businesses should not.


If you're really from Alabama you know this isn't true for large swaths of America. In many rural/Southern areas, it's more likely that churches will start boycotting bakeries that do serve gays than any significant boycott of a bakery that refuses them.
Some people I'm sure would do so, but they would be a small minority almost everywhere.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: megameow on June 17, 2018, 09:38:22 pm
A private business owner should have full discretion in regards of who they do business with, and should never be required to make a sale or perform a service for anyone they don't want to.

If a business owner wants to be bigoted and hateful towards customers of a certain category, it's unfortunate, but that's his/her choice. Their community of customers will probably boycott their business and pressure them into either a) changing course or b) closing their doors.
Obviously essential services such as pharmacies, hospitals, etc. must be required to serve everyone, but most other businesses should not.


thank goodness this isn't the current law. what you're describing is law pre-1964 civil rights act. we agreed as a country in 1964 that we should not allow people to discriminate in businesses open to the public... if you wanna turn back the clock great but i'll work my butt off making sure that that never happens.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: True Federalist on June 17, 2018, 10:33:07 pm
A private business owner should have full discretion in regards of who they do business with, and should never be required to make a sale or perform a service for anyone they don't want to.

If a business owner wants to be bigoted and hateful towards customers of a certain category, it's unfortunate, but that's his/her choice. Their community of customers will probably boycott their business and pressure them into either a) changing course or b) closing their doors.
Obviously essential services such as pharmacies, hospitals, etc. must be required to serve everyone, but most other businesses should not.


thank goodness this isn't the current law. what you're describing is law pre-1964 civil rights act. we agreed as a country in 1964 that we should not allow people to discriminate in businesses open to the public... if you wanna turn back the clock great but i'll work my butt off making sure that that never happens.

Except that's not the law and never has been nationwide.  Title II covers a specific class of businesses known as "public accommodations" which does not include all retail establishments and would include a bakery only if allowed on-premise consumption of its goods.  Many States do have more expansive laws, but those are State laws, not Federal ones.

Incidentally, whether Title VII (employment discrimination) applies to LGBT discrimination is a matter of unsettled law at present as different circuits have reached different conclusions, so it's probably headed to SCOTUS for resolution, tho with the current court, I think they'll rule Congress could expand the Civil Rights Act to include sexual orientation, but it hasn't chosen to do so, so it doesn't.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: megameow on June 18, 2018, 12:24:47 am
A private business owner should have full discretion in regards of who they do business with, and should never be required to make a sale or perform a service for anyone they don't want to.

If a business owner wants to be bigoted and hateful towards customers of a certain category, it's unfortunate, but that's his/her choice. Their community of customers will probably boycott their business and pressure them into either a) changing course or b) closing their doors.
Obviously essential services such as pharmacies, hospitals, etc. must be required to serve everyone, but most other businesses should not.


thank goodness this isn't the current law. what you're describing is law pre-1964 civil rights act. we agreed as a country in 1964 that we should not allow people to discriminate in businesses open to the public... if you wanna turn back the clock great but i'll work my butt off making sure that that never happens.

Except that's not the law and never has been nationwide.  Title II covers a specific class of businesses known as "public accommodations" which does not include all retail establishments and would include a bakery only if allowed on-premise consumption of its goods.  Many States do have more expansive laws, but those are State laws, not Federal ones.

Incidentally, whether Title VII (employment discrimination) applies to LGBT discrimination is a matter of unsettled law at present as different circuits have reached different conclusions, so it's probably headed to SCOTUS for resolution, tho with the current court, I think they'll rule Congress could expand the Civil Rights Act to include sexual orientation, but it hasn't chosen to do so, so it doesn't.

you're right about how the federal CRA 1964's doesnt cover LGBT discrimination. but as for the federal law definition of public accomodation... idk if you're correct. it seems on the face of the text from CRA 1964 that you'd be right, but i didnt find anything agreeing with you necessarily... could u help me find some case examples where a bakery or something similar wasnt found to be a PA under the federal CRA? the only thing i found is a quote from FindLaw.Com (idk how reliable they are):
Quote
Churches, synagogues, mosques, and other religious organizations are generally not considered public accommodations. However; when these facilities are rented out to the public for non-religious purposes, they become public accommodations during that period of use. Also, "private clubs" -- clubs that require memberships -- or where members must pay dues are not considered public accommodations. Besides these exceptions, the law interprets most public accommodations to include almost any business that is open to the public, especially in the context of enforcing anti-discrimination laws.
even tho a bakery technically doesnt serve food "on the premises," i find it a bit incredulous that a bakery that denied service to black people (for example) would not be found in violation of the law. maybe my confusion stems from the near universal existence of additional state laws that expand the definition of PA.


Title: Re: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
Post by: True Federalist on June 19, 2018, 09:46:01 pm
I do know that back in the day, cases where the defendants tried to claim that their drive-in or drive-thru restaurants didn't meet the standard of being a "public accommodation" under Title II actually managed to succeed at the trial level before being rightly overruled at the appellate.  I imagine the standard would be if the bakery in question sells its goods in quantities a single person could reasonably be expected to use at a single sitting.  I.e., if they sold individual cupcakes, they'd be covered by Title II but if they only sold them by the dozen they might not be, and if they only sold them in multiples of 48 they'd be even likelier to not be considered a public accommodation under Title II.

I also imagine the courts would take a dim view of a bakery that formerly sold cupcakes individually and them started only selling them in quantity at the same time they started trying to discriminate and/or a discrimination claim was raised against them.

In any case, I think it's fairly safe to say that a hardware store would not be covered under Title II, so Mr. Cunningham would be within his rights to tell Chachi to take a hike and stop coming into his store even if he wasn't trying to see Joanie.