Talk Elections

General Politics => International General Discussion => Topic started by: they don't love you like i love you on January 11, 2017, 12:13:44 AM



Title: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on January 11, 2017, 12:13:44 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/38571174/young-russians-born-this-decade-face-complete-smoking-ban

It's a shame such a terrible sh!thole country had to pioneer this fantastic law.


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: Intell on January 11, 2017, 12:21:47 AM
This is good, I guess.



Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: Crumpets on January 11, 2017, 12:46:28 AM
Wow. This is... not going to work.


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on January 11, 2017, 01:00:17 AM


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: Horus on January 11, 2017, 01:35:33 AM


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it] on January 11, 2017, 05:23:15 AM
Wonderful then they can drown their frustration in adulterated alcohol.


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: White Trash on January 11, 2017, 06:17:04 AM
Wonderful then they can drown their frustration in adulterated alcohol.
Yeah, given how much tobacco Russians consume, I seriously doubt that they will just quit cold turkey. I'd wager you'll see a sharp increase in the consumption of other substances.


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: Cassius on January 11, 2017, 07:15:22 AM
Remember that these people are 2-3 years old at this point, so when they do get to an age where they're more likely to be affected by the law they won't necessarily be massive smokers already. Of course, I'm sure some black market trade will grow up around this, but then that happens every time a government bans anything, and Russia already has a comparatively large black market criminal scene so I doubt it will be a serious change from the norm. The point of these laws isn't to stop every single person from smoking (or doing whatever is banned), the point is simply to achieve a reduction, and any reduction achieved, I think, is good.


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on January 11, 2017, 07:21:52 AM
Hopefully this leads to more roll-ups, which are scientifically proven to look cooler than cigs.


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: MASHED POTATOES. VOTE! on January 11, 2017, 10:34:14 AM
It'll be as effective as prohibition. Criminals will make ton of moneys on this and addicts will remain addicted.


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on January 11, 2017, 10:40:49 AM
It's probably not going to work, but I say let's make a statement anyway. Freedom law.


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: dead0man on January 11, 2017, 10:47:16 AM
"freedom" is an odd choice of words here, even if it is the Atlas way to approve of something.

Anyway, horrible law.  Obviously not as dumb/bad a ban as say, warming your car up unattended or newspapers at college book stores (because inclusion and diversity!), still bad though.


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on January 11, 2017, 11:11:53 AM
"freedom" is an odd choice of words here, even if it is the Atlas way to approve of something.

True. :P Let's say it's a not-too-shabby law, then.


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: MASHED POTATOES. VOTE! on January 11, 2017, 02:27:44 PM
Code:
It's probably not going to work, but I say let's make a statement anyway. Freedom law.

Nanny state like this is never a good idea. For all noble intentions, it frequently leds to more damage than good.


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: dead0man on January 11, 2017, 02:36:07 PM
Code:
It's probably not going to work, but I say let's make a statement anyway. Freedom law.

Nanny state like this is never a good idea. For all noble intentions, it frequently leds to more damage than good.
Of course not, but don't expect young people with "good intentions" to ever care about things like "likely negative outcomes" or "increased police pressure on poor people".  Their heart is in the right place and that's all that matters.


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: World politics is up Schmitt creek on January 11, 2017, 02:54:19 PM
"increased police pressure on poor people".

This is exactly why I'm not as uncritically pro-gun control as I used to be, although I still hope it could be accomplished in some way that wouldn't lead to this.


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: ag on January 11, 2017, 03:28:10 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/38571174/young-russians-born-this-decade-face-complete-smoking-ban

It's a shame such a terrible sh!thole country had to pioneer this fantastic law.

It is really great, if interpreted as a law to maximize corruption (which is, of course, the objective of its authors). Pretty much horrid for all other purposes though.


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: ag on January 11, 2017, 03:29:22 PM
It's probably not going to work, but I say let's make a statement anyway. Freedom law.

A ban on consumption as "freedom"? You have an interesting interpretation of what freedom is.

BTW, what is your attitude to marijuana?


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: Higgs on January 11, 2017, 08:06:47 PM
What happened to All Liberal, All the Time BRTD?


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: Cashew on January 11, 2017, 08:35:15 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/38571174/young-russians-born-this-decade-face-complete-smoking-ban

It's a shame such a terrible sh!thole country had to pioneer this fantastic law.

Booo! Down with prohibitionist tyrant Putin!


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on January 11, 2017, 11:30:01 PM
This is a repulsive law. The idea of a good or service being legal for some legal adults but not for others is antithecal to freedom.


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: RFayette on January 12, 2017, 10:36:32 PM
Terrible law:  tobacco is evil, but adults have the right to make their own decisions.

If we ban tobacco, what's next?  Soda, snack cakes, fried food?  There are nanny-staters who probably want to ban all those awesome things, and it would suck if we set a precedent making such bans acceptable.


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: ag on January 13, 2017, 02:37:26 PM
Cigarettes should be banned. What are the people on this thread smoking?

Religion is opium for the people. It should be banned as well.


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas on January 13, 2017, 02:42:58 PM
Cigarettes should be banned. What are the people on this thread smoking?

Then ban the production of a harmful product, instead of declaring certain people to be less in the eyes of the law.


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on January 13, 2017, 09:04:35 PM
What happened to All Liberal, All the Time BRTD?

Restricting tobacco is liberal. All the first states to implement indoor smoking bans are liberal.


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: Cashew on January 13, 2017, 10:29:07 PM
What happened to All Liberal, All the Time BRTD?

Restricting tobacco is liberal. All the first states to implement indoor smoking bans are liberal.

Nope. True liberalism is about expanding freedom, public perception notwithstanding.


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: ag on January 13, 2017, 10:48:07 PM
What happened to All Liberal, All the Time BRTD?

Restricting tobacco is liberal. All the first states to implement indoor smoking bans are liberal.

So, I guess, you are also all for continuing prohibition of marijuana?

Prohibition is an illiberal policy, by definition. Even if that is the one illiberalism many liberals allow themselves.

Note: you could reasonably argue for certain restrictions on indore smoking in public places, because of the externality imposed on others - you will be ballancing the interests of different people, and, up to a point, some restrictions may be reasonable. But once you progress beyond what is essential for the health of those who would be involuntarily exposed, you stop being a liberal, no matter what you think of yourself.

Full disclosure: I am a life-long non-smoker.


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: ag on January 13, 2017, 11:01:32 PM
It is funny, how many people base their attitude towards a product on its typical consumer. Marijuana is more likely to be consumed by "nice types" - it has been unfairly prohibited. Tobacco is more likely to be consumed by somebody I dislike - ban it.

Frankly, these days I find that (even with marijuana still banned), in pracitce I am a lot more likely to be inconvenienced by the smell of the weed, than of tobacco (I happen to dislike both smells, with the exception, perhaps, of that of good pipe tobacco - something which is, in practice, very rare). I have just spent 3 weeks in Florida and in New York: marijuana smell is everywhere now. True, second-hand tobacco smoke does cause cancer - so does car exhaust and many other things out there. And, of course, at this point you are a lot more likely to inhale car exhaust than tobacco. Smoking has already been restricted so much that one barely ever smells a cigarette.  Relax.

And, of course, if you outright ban sales of tobacco you will reproduce all the problems of the war of drugs in a new market. There will now be tobacco cartels supplying the needs. Actually, after a few years tobacco smoking will once again become cool: banned stuff tends to be cool. You really want all that?

Of course, in Russia this is all just a combination of the traditional national desire to address every problem (including that horrible problem that people might actually be enjoying themselves) with a ban and the anticipation of corrupt profits to be obtained from such a ban. But, frankly, is it that different in the US?


Title: Re: The first good idea to come out of Russia since....ever
Post by: IceAgeComing on January 14, 2017, 05:16:02 AM
I don't like this idea for lots of reasons - mostly because it'll create a black market for cigarettes and that's not a good thing for lots of reasons. 

Its not something that I'm a big fan of (I have asthma, so generally I try to avoid being around a significant amount of smokers at any one time simply because of that; although most of my friends back home smoke so that can be a challenge) but an outright prohibition is only likely to embolden dealers and similar people.  I think that the best policy is what we're doing back home: a mixture of a good education campaign, easily available services to help people stop smoking publicly funded (a cost-effective policy, the amount that you spend now is saved twenty years down the line) plus policies designed to limit the exposure of the stuff: things like banning any PoS adverts, mandating that shops cover the places that cigarettes or by plain packaging laws.  These are likely to be as effective as pure prohibition is while still allowing people to buy the stuff if they want.  Incidentally those are the terms that I'd legalise cannabis under unless there are studies around which show that there's a significant different in the health results after long term use; even then I think that the first two would be reasonable.