Atlas Forum

Election Archive => 2016 U.S. Presidential General Election Polls => Topic started by: pbrower2a on September 26, 2017, 05:02:49 pm



Title: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: pbrower2a on September 26, 2017, 05:02:49 pm
Wisconsinís voter ID law discouraged as many as 23,252 people in the stateís two largest counties from voting in last yearís presidential election, according to a new study by researchers at the University of Wisconsin-Madison.

The study, based on a survey of people in Milwaukee and Dane counties who did not vote, says the law discouraged 16,801 to 23,252 people from voting. The researchers estimated that 9,001 to 14,101 people actually were blocked from voting, based on answers from nonvoters who said the main reason they didnít cast a ballot was because they believed they didnít have acceptable ID.

The study adds to the debate over voter ID laws and their effects on voter turnout. Backers of the laws say they are needed to combat voter fraud. Critics say the laws are unnecessary because widespread voter fraud is not a problem. Voter ID laws make it more difficult for minorities, low-income people and the elderly to vote, opponents say.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/wisconsin-voter-id_us_59ca6e60e4b01cc57ff5bdd5?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: The Saint on September 26, 2017, 07:32:34 pm
So why does it "discourage" people from voting?

According to this website, you can just show a driver's license to vote.  in fact, there are quite a few options.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/voter-id.aspx


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: Stranger in a strange land on September 27, 2017, 09:38:07 am
The easiest solution to this is to provide free photo ID to all citizens at age 18 on request, but with an opt-out for those who don't want it.


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: Mr. Reactionary on September 27, 2017, 11:37:38 am
Damn. So the photo ID law prevented between 9k and 14k Trump voters from casting ballots? They should offer free IDs to the poors.


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: Michael Bloomberg on September 27, 2017, 12:50:43 pm
The easiest solution to this is to provide free photo ID to all citizens at age 18 on request, but with an opt-out for those who don't want it.
Just give every citizen a passport, free of charge.


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: Julian Assange is a Snowflake on September 27, 2017, 11:47:00 pm
So why does it "discourage" people from voting?

According to this website, you can just show a driver's license to vote.  in fact, there are quite a few options.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/voter-id.aspx

...

because every single person has a driver's license. WTF dude?


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: Michael Bloomberg on September 27, 2017, 11:53:34 pm
So why does it "discourage" people from voting?

According to this website, you can just show a driver's license to vote.  in fact, there are quite a few options.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/voter-id.aspx

...

because every single person has a driver's license. WTF dude?
Exactly. And those that don't are disproportionately urban,and therefore disproportionately Democrat, and therefore disproportionately minority.


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: The Saint on September 28, 2017, 08:30:53 am
So why does it "discourage" people from voting?

According to this website, you can just show a driver's license to vote.  in fact, there are quite a few options.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/voter-id.aspx

...

because every single person has a driver's license. WTF dude?

As I said, there are quite a few options:

-Wisconsin driver's license
-ID card issued by a U.S. uniformed service
-Wisconsin non-driver ID
-U.S. Passport
-Certificate of naturalization issued not more than 2 years before the election
-ID card issued by a federally recognized Indian tribe in WI
-Student ID card with a signature, an issue date, and an expiration date no later than 2 years after the election
-a photo ID card provided by the Veteran's Health Administration


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: marty on September 29, 2017, 01:10:05 pm
Good write up explaining everything that is wrong with this study.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/451968/wisconsin-voter-id-study-flawed-unreliable (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/451968/wisconsin-voter-id-study-flawed-unreliable)
Quote
The survey ó which was funded with tax dollars by an elected Democrat in left-of-liberal Madison ó was mailed to 2,400 people in the Democratic strongholds of Dane and Milwaukee counties who were registered but did not vote. It asked respondents why they did not vote. Very few of the people who received the survey responded, and of those did respond, about 30 said it was because they thought they lacked a proper form of ID. This number was extrapolated into the larger number with the unstated claim that almost all of them would have voted for Hillary Clinton.

Quote
Only 1.7 percent of respondents believed that they did not have an adequate photo ID, and 1.4 percent claimed to have actually been turned away at the polling place (which might have been related to ID). Put another way, the main reason for not voting cited by somewhere between 95 and 98 percent of the respondents was unrelated to the voter-ID law.

Quote
But that is not even the most fundamental problem with the breathless claims of disenfranchisement. It appears that most of those who were deterred from voting actually could have voted. The first hint of a problem is in the professorsí use of the circumlocution ďdeterredĒ in describing the impact of the voter ID-law on voters. In a statement to the media, one of the studyís authors, Professor Kenneth Mayer, went further, saying that persons who are eligible but ďcannot vote because ofĒ the voter-ID law have been ďdisenfranchised.Ē But that it is not what the survey found. According to the press release from the study, ďMost of the people who said they did not vote because they lacked ID actually possessed a qualifying form of ID.Ē This crucial finding was omitted in many of the media reports on the survey.

Quote
The study included two questions on reasons for not voting. One question allowed people to cite multiple reasons for not voting, while the second asked people for their main reason for not voting. While blacks and low-income persons were more likely to cite a lack of voter ID as one of the reasons they did not vote, there was no statistically significant difference between those respondents and others with respect to voter ID as the main reason for not voting.

Quote
The low response rates call into question whether the respondents were representative of the larger population, and surveys asking people about their voting behavior are always problematic: Respondents tend to give answers that excuse their failure to vote.








Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: The Saint on September 29, 2017, 06:11:08 pm
Good write up explaining everything that is wrong with this study.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/451968/wisconsin-voter-id-study-flawed-unreliable (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/451968/wisconsin-voter-id-study-flawed-unreliable)
Quote
The survey ó which was funded with tax dollars by an elected Democrat in left-of-liberal Madison ó was mailed to 2,400 people in the Democratic strongholds of Dane and Milwaukee counties who were registered but did not vote. It asked respondents why they did not vote. Very few of the people who received the survey responded, and of those did respond, about 30 said it was because they thought they lacked a proper form of ID. This number was extrapolated into the larger number with the unstated claim that almost all of them would have voted for Hillary Clinton.

Quote
Only 1.7 percent of respondents believed that they did not have an adequate photo ID, and 1.4 percent claimed to have actually been turned away at the polling place (which might have been related to ID). Put another way, the main reason for not voting cited by somewhere between 95 and 98 percent of the respondents was unrelated to the voter-ID law.

Quote
But that is not even the most fundamental problem with the breathless claims of disenfranchisement. It appears that most of those who were deterred from voting actually could have voted. The first hint of a problem is in the professorsí use of the circumlocution ďdeterredĒ in describing the impact of the voter ID-law on voters. In a statement to the media, one of the studyís authors, Professor Kenneth Mayer, went further, saying that persons who are eligible but ďcannot vote because ofĒ the voter-ID law have been ďdisenfranchised.Ē But that it is not what the survey found. According to the press release from the study, ďMost of the people who said they did not vote because they lacked ID actually possessed a qualifying form of ID.Ē This crucial finding was omitted in many of the media reports on the survey.

Quote
The study included two questions on reasons for not voting. One question allowed people to cite multiple reasons for not voting, while the second asked people for their main reason for not voting. While blacks and low-income persons were more likely to cite a lack of voter ID as one of the reasons they did not vote, there was no statistically significant difference between those respondents and others with respect to voter ID as the main reason for not voting.

Quote
The low response rates call into question whether the respondents were representative of the larger population, and surveys asking people about their voting behavior are always problematic: Respondents tend to give answers that excuse their failure to vote.








This is a pretty great write-up. Happy that this was addressed.


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: Figueira on September 29, 2017, 08:39:44 pm
So why does it "discourage" people from voting?

According to this website, you can just show a driver's license to vote.  in fact, there are quite a few options.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/voter-id.aspx

Not everyone has a driver's license.


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: Figueira on September 29, 2017, 08:48:31 pm
So why does it "discourage" people from voting?

According to this website, you can just show a driver's license to vote.  in fact, there are quite a few options.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/voter-id.aspx

...

because every single person has a driver's license. WTF dude?

As I said, there are quite a few options:

-Wisconsin driver's license
-ID card issued by a U.S. uniformed service
-Wisconsin non-driver ID
-U.S. Passport
-Certificate of naturalization issued not more than 2 years before the election
-ID card issued by a federally recognized Indian tribe in WI
-Student ID card with a signature, an issue date, and an expiration date no later than 2 years after the election
-a photo ID card provided by the Veteran's Health Administration

The only one of those that's really available to everyone is the "non-driver ID" (passports cost money and people who don't travel abroad don't bother). And non-driver IDs are still a hassle to get. Also I went to a major state university and my ID from there would not pass muster according to this test. I don't know if schools in Wisconsin are different, but there are students from Wisconsin who attend out of state schools.

Also you realize that the people supporting these laws have admitted that they're doing it for partisan reasons. Why are you defending people who have actively refuted your defenses of them?


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: The Saint on September 30, 2017, 07:04:55 am
So why does it "discourage" people from voting?

According to this website, you can just show a driver's license to vote.  in fact, there are quite a few options.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/voter-id.aspx

...

because every single person has a driver's license. WTF dude?

As I said, there are quite a few options:

-Wisconsin driver's license
-ID card issued by a U.S. uniformed service
-Wisconsin non-driver ID
-U.S. Passport
-Certificate of naturalization issued not more than 2 years before the election
-ID card issued by a federally recognized Indian tribe in WI
-Student ID card with a signature, an issue date, and an expiration date no later than 2 years after the election
-a photo ID card provided by the Veteran's Health Administration

The only one of those that's really available to everyone is the "non-driver ID" (passports cost money and people who don't travel abroad don't bother). And non-driver IDs are still a hassle to get. Also I went to a major state university and my ID from there would not pass muster according to this test. I don't know if schools in Wisconsin are different, but there are students from Wisconsin who attend out of state schools.

Also you realize that the people supporting these laws have admitted that they're doing it for partisan reasons. Why are you defending people who have actively refuted your defenses of them?

Those people are idiots.


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: Mr. Reactionary on September 30, 2017, 09:50:32 am
So why does it "discourage" people from voting?

According to this website, you can just show a driver's license to vote.  in fact, there are quite a few options.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/voter-id.aspx

...

because every single person has a driver's license. WTF dude?

As I said, there are quite a few options:

-Wisconsin driver's license
-ID card issued by a U.S. uniformed service
-Wisconsin non-driver ID
-U.S. Passport
-Certificate of naturalization issued not more than 2 years before the election
-ID card issued by a federally recognized Indian tribe in WI
-Student ID card with a signature, an issue date, and an expiration date no later than 2 years after the election
-a photo ID card provided by the Veteran's Health Administration

The only one of those that's really available to everyone is the "non-driver ID" (passports cost money and people who don't travel abroad don't bother). And non-driver IDs are still a hassle to get. Also I went to a major state university and my ID from there would not pass muster according to this test. I don't know if schools in Wisconsin are different, but there are students from Wisconsin who attend out of state schools.

Also you realize that the people supporting these laws have admitted that they're doing it for partisan reasons. Why are you defending people who have actively refuted your defenses of them?

Those people are idiots.

Yes, it's an example of throwing out the baby and the bathwater. I still get annoyed anytime a smug Dem hack claims tax cuts are racist because muh Lee Atwater said they were before I was even born. People can have different motivations for supporting the same policy. Hell, Jimmy Carter recommended voter IDs in mid 00's.


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: The Saint on September 30, 2017, 01:10:53 pm
So why does it "discourage" people from voting?

According to this website, you can just show a driver's license to vote.  in fact, there are quite a few options.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/voter-id.aspx

...

because every single person has a driver's license. WTF dude?

As I said, there are quite a few options:

-Wisconsin driver's license
-ID card issued by a U.S. uniformed service
-Wisconsin non-driver ID
-U.S. Passport
-Certificate of naturalization issued not more than 2 years before the election
-ID card issued by a federally recognized Indian tribe in WI
-Student ID card with a signature, an issue date, and an expiration date no later than 2 years after the election
-a photo ID card provided by the Veteran's Health Administration

The only one of those that's really available to everyone is the "non-driver ID" (passports cost money and people who don't travel abroad don't bother). And non-driver IDs are still a hassle to get. Also I went to a major state university and my ID from there would not pass muster according to this test. I don't know if schools in Wisconsin are different, but there are students from Wisconsin who attend out of state schools.

Also you realize that the people supporting these laws have admitted that they're doing it for partisan reasons. Why are you defending people who have actively refuted your defenses of them?

Those people are idiots.

Yes, it's an example of throwing out the baby and the bathwater. I still get annoyed anytime a smug Dem hack claims tax cuts are racist because muh Lee Atwater said they were before I was even born. People can have different motivations for supporting the same policy. Hell, Jimmy Carter recommended voter IDs in mid 00's.

Exactly


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: Figueira on September 30, 2017, 01:41:58 pm
So why does it "discourage" people from voting?

According to this website, you can just show a driver's license to vote.  in fact, there are quite a few options.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/voter-id.aspx

...

because every single person has a driver's license. WTF dude?

As I said, there are quite a few options:

-Wisconsin driver's license
-ID card issued by a U.S. uniformed service
-Wisconsin non-driver ID
-U.S. Passport
-Certificate of naturalization issued not more than 2 years before the election
-ID card issued by a federally recognized Indian tribe in WI
-Student ID card with a signature, an issue date, and an expiration date no later than 2 years after the election
-a photo ID card provided by the Veteran's Health Administration

The only one of those that's really available to everyone is the "non-driver ID" (passports cost money and people who don't travel abroad don't bother). And non-driver IDs are still a hassle to get. Also I went to a major state university and my ID from there would not pass muster according to this test. I don't know if schools in Wisconsin are different, but there are students from Wisconsin who attend out of state schools.

Also you realize that the people supporting these laws have admitted that they're doing it for partisan reasons. Why are you defending people who have actively refuted your defenses of them?

Those people are idiots.

No, they're just more honest than you.


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: The Saint on September 30, 2017, 02:11:45 pm
So why does it "discourage" people from voting?

According to this website, you can just show a driver's license to vote.  in fact, there are quite a few options.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/voter-id.aspx

...

because every single person has a driver's license. WTF dude?

As I said, there are quite a few options:

-Wisconsin driver's license
-ID card issued by a U.S. uniformed service
-Wisconsin non-driver ID
-U.S. Passport
-Certificate of naturalization issued not more than 2 years before the election
-ID card issued by a federally recognized Indian tribe in WI
-Student ID card with a signature, an issue date, and an expiration date no later than 2 years after the election
-a photo ID card provided by the Veteran's Health Administration

The only one of those that's really available to everyone is the "non-driver ID" (passports cost money and people who don't travel abroad don't bother). And non-driver IDs are still a hassle to get. Also I went to a major state university and my ID from there would not pass muster according to this test. I don't know if schools in Wisconsin are different, but there are students from Wisconsin who attend out of state schools.

Also you realize that the people supporting these laws have admitted that they're doing it for partisan reasons. Why are you defending people who have actively refuted your defenses of them?

Those people are idiots.

No, they're just more honest than you.

Whatever you say.



Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: Figueira on September 30, 2017, 11:01:13 pm
So why does it "discourage" people from voting?

According to this website, you can just show a driver's license to vote.  in fact, there are quite a few options.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/voter-id.aspx

...

because every single person has a driver's license. WTF dude?

As I said, there are quite a few options:

-Wisconsin driver's license
-ID card issued by a U.S. uniformed service
-Wisconsin non-driver ID
-U.S. Passport
-Certificate of naturalization issued not more than 2 years before the election
-ID card issued by a federally recognized Indian tribe in WI
-Student ID card with a signature, an issue date, and an expiration date no later than 2 years after the election
-a photo ID card provided by the Veteran's Health Administration

The only one of those that's really available to everyone is the "non-driver ID" (passports cost money and people who don't travel abroad don't bother). And non-driver IDs are still a hassle to get. Also I went to a major state university and my ID from there would not pass muster according to this test. I don't know if schools in Wisconsin are different, but there are students from Wisconsin who attend out of state schools.

Also you realize that the people supporting these laws have admitted that they're doing it for partisan reasons. Why are you defending people who have actively refuted your defenses of them?

Those people are idiots.

No, they're just more honest than you.

Whatever you say.



OK. What exactly is the benefit of having voter ID laws without providing free, easy, mandatory IDs to everyone?


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: The Saint on October 01, 2017, 09:35:40 am
So why does it "discourage" people from voting?

According to this website, you can just show a driver's license to vote.  in fact, there are quite a few options.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/voter-id.aspx

...

because every single person has a driver's license. WTF dude?

As I said, there are quite a few options:

-Wisconsin driver's license
-ID card issued by a U.S. uniformed service
-Wisconsin non-driver ID
-U.S. Passport
-Certificate of naturalization issued not more than 2 years before the election
-ID card issued by a federally recognized Indian tribe in WI
-Student ID card with a signature, an issue date, and an expiration date no later than 2 years after the election
-a photo ID card provided by the Veteran's Health Administration

The only one of those that's really available to everyone is the "non-driver ID" (passports cost money and people who don't travel abroad don't bother). And non-driver IDs are still a hassle to get. Also I went to a major state university and my ID from there would not pass muster according to this test. I don't know if schools in Wisconsin are different, but there are students from Wisconsin who attend out of state schools.

Also you realize that the people supporting these laws have admitted that they're doing it for partisan reasons. Why are you defending people who have actively refuted your defenses of them?

Those people are idiots.

No, they're just more honest than you.

Whatever you say.



OK. What exactly is the benefit of having voter ID laws without providing free, easy, mandatory IDs to everyone?

I would prefer free, easy, mandatory IDs. It limits confusion. I just donít think Wisconsinís is an attack of any sort.


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: Figueira on October 01, 2017, 11:38:23 am
So why does it "discourage" people from voting?

According to this website, you can just show a driver's license to vote.  in fact, there are quite a few options.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/voter-id.aspx

...

because every single person has a driver's license. WTF dude?

As I said, there are quite a few options:

-Wisconsin driver's license
-ID card issued by a U.S. uniformed service
-Wisconsin non-driver ID
-U.S. Passport
-Certificate of naturalization issued not more than 2 years before the election
-ID card issued by a federally recognized Indian tribe in WI
-Student ID card with a signature, an issue date, and an expiration date no later than 2 years after the election
-a photo ID card provided by the Veteran's Health Administration

The only one of those that's really available to everyone is the "non-driver ID" (passports cost money and people who don't travel abroad don't bother). And non-driver IDs are still a hassle to get. Also I went to a major state university and my ID from there would not pass muster according to this test. I don't know if schools in Wisconsin are different, but there are students from Wisconsin who attend out of state schools.

Also you realize that the people supporting these laws have admitted that they're doing it for partisan reasons. Why are you defending people who have actively refuted your defenses of them?

Those people are idiots.

No, they're just more honest than you.

Whatever you say.



OK. What exactly is the benefit of having voter ID laws without providing free, easy, mandatory IDs to everyone?

I would prefer free, easy, mandatory IDs. It limits confusion. I just donít think Wisconsinís is an attack of any sort.

You didn't answer my question.


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: krazen1211 on October 01, 2017, 11:51:12 am
Step 1. File junk lawsuits against Wisconsin common sense voter ID, which was signed in 2011.
Step 2. Whine about 'confusion' created by those junk lawsuits.

Of course, as many have pointed out, most of those people mentioned actually have a proper ID already. So they are either lying or stupid.


Voter turnout went up 4% in Indiana after they strengthened the elections system by passing wonderful voter ID.

Link (https://www.in.gov/sos/elections/files/2008_election_turnout.pdf)

Link (https://www.in.gov/sos/elections/files/2004_Municipal_Registration_and_Turnout.pdf)


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: The Saint on October 01, 2017, 03:39:46 pm
So why does it "discourage" people from voting?

According to this website, you can just show a driver's license to vote.  in fact, there are quite a few options.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/voter-id.aspx

...

because every single person has a driver's license. WTF dude?

As I said, there are quite a few options:

-Wisconsin driver's license
-ID card issued by a U.S. uniformed service
-Wisconsin non-driver ID
-U.S. Passport
-Certificate of naturalization issued not more than 2 years before the election
-ID card issued by a federally recognized Indian tribe in WI
-Student ID card with a signature, an issue date, and an expiration date no later than 2 years after the election
-a photo ID card provided by the Veteran's Health Administration

The only one of those that's really available to everyone is the "non-driver ID" (passports cost money and people who don't travel abroad don't bother). And non-driver IDs are still a hassle to get. Also I went to a major state university and my ID from there would not pass muster according to this test. I don't know if schools in Wisconsin are different, but there are students from Wisconsin who attend out of state schools.

Also you realize that the people supporting these laws have admitted that they're doing it for partisan reasons. Why are you defending people who have actively refuted your defenses of them?

Those people are idiots.

No, they're just more honest than you.

Whatever you say.



OK. What exactly is the benefit of having voter ID laws without providing free, easy, mandatory IDs to everyone?

I would prefer free, easy, mandatory IDs. It limits confusion. I just donít think Wisconsinís is an attack of any sort.

You didn't answer my question.

Itís a step in the right direction to limiting voter fraud. Im not gonna pretend like I understand the schematics behind why there is an extremely small price for things like non-driver license ID, but it certainly isnít to limit voter access. As I said, though, free mandatory ID would be better.


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: ❤️❤️❤️ on October 05, 2017, 08:33:34 am
So why does it "discourage" people from voting?

According to this website, you can just show a driver's license to vote.  in fact, there are quite a few options.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/voter-id.aspx

...

because every single person has a driver's license. WTF dude?

As I said, there are quite a few options:

-Wisconsin driver's license
-ID card issued by a U.S. uniformed service
-Wisconsin non-driver ID
-U.S. Passport
-Certificate of naturalization issued not more than 2 years before the election
-ID card issued by a federally recognized Indian tribe in WI
-Student ID card with a signature, an issue date, and an expiration date no later than 2 years after the election
-a photo ID card provided by the Veteran's Health Administration

The only one of those that's really available to everyone is the "non-driver ID" (passports cost money and people who don't travel abroad don't bother). And non-driver IDs are still a hassle to get. Also I went to a major state university and my ID from there would not pass muster according to this test. I don't know if schools in Wisconsin are different, but there are students from Wisconsin who attend out of state schools.

Also you realize that the people supporting these laws have admitted that they're doing it for partisan reasons. Why are you defending people who have actively refuted your defenses of them?

Those people are idiots.

No, they're just more honest than you.

Whatever you say.



OK. What exactly is the benefit of having voter ID laws without providing free, easy, mandatory IDs to everyone?

I would prefer free, easy, mandatory IDs. It limits confusion. I just donít think Wisconsinís is an attack of any sort.

You didn't answer my question.

Itís a step in the right direction to limiting voter fraud. Im not gonna pretend like I understand the schematics behind why there is an extremely small price for things like non-driver license ID, but it certainly isnít to limit voter access. As I said, though, free mandatory ID would be better.

A small price is still enough to discourage the poor from voting, esp. when getting the ID is such a hassle.


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: The Saint on October 05, 2017, 01:10:16 pm
So why does it "discourage" people from voting?

According to this website, you can just show a driver's license to vote.  in fact, there are quite a few options.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/voter-id.aspx

...

because every single person has a driver's license. WTF dude?

As I said, there are quite a few options:

-Wisconsin driver's license
-ID card issued by a U.S. uniformed service
-Wisconsin non-driver ID
-U.S. Passport
-Certificate of naturalization issued not more than 2 years before the election
-ID card issued by a federally recognized Indian tribe in WI
-Student ID card with a signature, an issue date, and an expiration date no later than 2 years after the election
-a photo ID card provided by the Veteran's Health Administration

The only one of those that's really available to everyone is the "non-driver ID" (passports cost money and people who don't travel abroad don't bother). And non-driver IDs are still a hassle to get. Also I went to a major state university and my ID from there would not pass muster according to this test. I don't know if schools in Wisconsin are different, but there are students from Wisconsin who attend out of state schools.

Also you realize that the people supporting these laws have admitted that they're doing it for partisan reasons. Why are you defending people who have actively refuted your defenses of them?

Those people are idiots.

No, they're just more honest than you.

Whatever you say.



OK. What exactly is the benefit of having voter ID laws without providing free, easy, mandatory IDs to everyone?

I would prefer free, easy, mandatory IDs. It limits confusion. I just donít think Wisconsinís is an attack of any sort.

You didn't answer my question.

Itís a step in the right direction to limiting voter fraud. Im not gonna pretend like I understand the schematics behind why there is an extremely small price for things like non-driver license ID, but it certainly isnít to limit voter access. As I said, though, free mandatory ID would be better.

A small price is still enough to discourage the poor from voting, esp. when getting the ID is such a hassle.

But again, I still fail to see how it "discourages" minorities from voting.


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: Figueira on October 09, 2017, 01:08:09 am
So why does it "discourage" people from voting?

According to this website, you can just show a driver's license to vote.  in fact, there are quite a few options.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/voter-id.aspx

...

because every single person has a driver's license. WTF dude?

As I said, there are quite a few options:

-Wisconsin driver's license
-ID card issued by a U.S. uniformed service
-Wisconsin non-driver ID
-U.S. Passport
-Certificate of naturalization issued not more than 2 years before the election
-ID card issued by a federally recognized Indian tribe in WI
-Student ID card with a signature, an issue date, and an expiration date no later than 2 years after the election
-a photo ID card provided by the Veteran's Health Administration

The only one of those that's really available to everyone is the "non-driver ID" (passports cost money and people who don't travel abroad don't bother). And non-driver IDs are still a hassle to get. Also I went to a major state university and my ID from there would not pass muster according to this test. I don't know if schools in Wisconsin are different, but there are students from Wisconsin who attend out of state schools.

Also you realize that the people supporting these laws have admitted that they're doing it for partisan reasons. Why are you defending people who have actively refuted your defenses of them?

Those people are idiots.

No, they're just more honest than you.

Whatever you say.



OK. What exactly is the benefit of having voter ID laws without providing free, easy, mandatory IDs to everyone?

I would prefer free, easy, mandatory IDs. It limits confusion. I just donít think Wisconsinís is an attack of any sort.

You didn't answer my question.

Itís a step in the right direction to limiting voter fraud. Im not gonna pretend like I understand the schematics behind why there is an extremely small price for things like non-driver license ID, but it certainly isnít to limit voter access. As I said, though, free mandatory ID would be better.

A small price is still enough to discourage the poor from voting, esp. when getting the ID is such a hassle.

But again, I still fail to see how it "discourages" minorities from voting.

Because getting an ID is difficult. We just went over this.


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: Koharu on October 21, 2017, 10:16:09 am
WI does have free ID that is acceptable for voting. However, it's at the DMV, which has limited hours and as previously mentioned, it's often difficult for poor minorities to get there and also have the appropriate paperwork on hand.

In addition, my husband, who has a perfectly acceptable ID for voting, was initially turned away because his printed driver's license address didn't match his voter's registration. We moved recently, and WI allows you to update your driver's license without printing a new one, which is the option we opted for.

However, the picture ID is not to determine your address, it is to determine your identity. He was turned away in error. Luckily I had already voted and he knew this (and we both came with proof of address as well), so he pushed to get the issue resolved and was able to vote after talking to a supervisor. However, this makes me wonder how many other eligible voters were turned away in similar situations and didn't press the issue? Again, minority and poor urban folks are more likely to have moved without updating or printing a new driver's license. So even though their ID was appropriate for voting, uninformed poll workers could have turned them away.

In addition, one of our congressmen openly admitted that voter ID laws help the GOP (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/wisconsin-voter-id-2016_us_5704a2eee4b0a506064d90cf).

The difference between Hillary and Trump in Wisconsin was about 27k votes. If this study is correct (and my guess is that it under-estimates, rather than over-estimates) it's very possible that the results could have been much closer, if not reversed, without this law. Of course, not all the prevented votes would be for Clinton, but the majority likely would have been.


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: VirginiŠ on October 21, 2017, 06:45:32 pm
I doubt lack of voter ID would have put the state in Clinton's hands. None of the studies about this have been as conclusive as they claim to be. However, this isn't to say that it didn't prevent thousands from voting. The real argument here is why should people have to put up with a political party making it even slightly harder to vote just to help them win elections? Why is that ok? All this griping from Republicans about a dozen fraudulent votes here and there, but crickets when it comes to the hundreds or even thousands of people who can't vote because they lack proper ID (or think they lack the right identification).

If Republicans insist it's not about helping them win elections (numerous officials and operatives remarks say otherwise, but ok), then for every restriction they add that hurts turnout, like voter ID, they should add something else that boosts turnout, like automatic voter registration, county-wide polling places and more early voting sites. Oh, but guess what, WI Republicans tried to cut all of that. They were even eyeing rolling back same-day registration until they found out how much it would cost. That doesn't look like a party that cares about election integrity. That looks like a party who wants to turn election law on its head so they can suppress Democratic voters.


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: Oldiesfreak1854 on December 19, 2017, 11:54:28 am
This study was only done in two blue counties.  What were the results in the rest of the state?  Classic cherry-picking to push left-wing talking points.


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: Oldiesfreak1854 on December 19, 2017, 11:55:20 am
I doubt lack of voter ID would have put the state in Clinton's hands. None of the studies about this have been as conclusive as they claim to be.
Exactly.  Trump won there because of working class backlash against free trade and illegal immigration, not photo ID laws.


Title: Re: Voter ID cut the electorate in Wisconsin
Post by: Figueira on December 19, 2017, 12:19:49 pm
This study was only done in two blue counties.  What were the results in the rest of the state?  Classic cherry-picking to push left-wing talking points.

So if they studied the rest of the state, would they find that Voter ID laws caused more people to vote in conservative counties, which counterbalanced the drop in turnout in Democratic areas?