Talk Elections

Groping and kissing by a radio journalist who in 2006 was a USO singer. Photographic evidence exists. (http://www.kabc.com/2017/11/16/leeann-tweeden-on-senator-al-franken/)

Oops

Thus endeth the "Franken in 2020" speculation.

He should be expelled immediately.

Special election soon ;D?

Probably ought to resign.

Yeah, any decent person will no longer support him. Damming evidence to top it all off.

He should resign. We don't need any more sexual predators in Congress.

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I've seen debate elsewhere on whether or not he was actually groping her, or his hands were just "hovering" over her breasts, but that's neither here nor there. Obviously, his hands shouldn't be anywhere near her to begin with.

We have to keep working to end this culture in which people (most of them men) believe this kind of behavior is acceptable. It can't just be a partisan issue. You can't just give someone a pass because you like their politics.

Anyway, I'm pretty damn sure that half of the men serving in congress has once kissed/groped a woman without her consent. Franken still should resign though (as should anyone who ever has done something like this, if only for the extra elections).

This. Even if this was just a "joke" the optics of it alone are not acceptable. Sexual assault isn't a joke and we cannot allow our party to defend those who engage in it.

Ughhhhh come on Franken you were supposed to be one of the good ones. Well, damn, good chance this ends in his resignation.

He did it, resign, etc.

Obviously, he needs to resign; and anyone who defends this out of tribalism, go screw yourself.

If he issues a statement, someone please post it.

Anything short of Franken resigning today, before lunch, eliminates the Democrat moral high ground in the Roy Moore fiasco.

Does anyone else remember the poster Sam Spade saying that Franken groped his aunt on the subway and that's why he hated him?

Horrible.

I hope more accusations are revealed, especially those about senators and representatives.

Congratulations Senator Lori Swanson

Would she be appointed or is there a special election? Would Ellison run?

Appointed until November 2018, until which there would be a special election to serve out the last 2 years, I believe.

This.

Democrats: Unless you want a Senator who represents the toothless hillbilly coalition for 3 years, you'd better clean up this Franken mess post-haste.

Lori Swanson is almost a sure bet to be Dayton's appointee. She's the current (and powerful) Attorney General who said she was interested in seeking a higher office in 2018. Given that the Governor's race is a clown car at this point, I think she's likely to just take the position and run for re-election in 2018.

http://www.startribune.com/minn-attorney-general-lori-swanson-takes-quiet-approach-to-job-political-ambitions/415435614/ (http://www.startribune.com/minn-attorney-general-lori-swanson-takes-quiet-approach-to-job-political-ambitions/415435614/)

I see Senate Democrats trying to get him to resign. They have cover since the Governor of Minnesota is a Democrat and would appoint another Democrat. Plus, it would look very hypocritical (though the two situations aren’t comparable) to excuse Franken while calling Moore unfit to serve.

Yep, as much as I love what Franken has done, he needs to get out. I would be okay with him finishing out his term (as I would be with anyone else already seated in Congress), but he then needs to be done. Resignation would be better, obviously, because it shows initiative and on the politics side, Dayton would appoint the replacement.

C'mon, Al. Own up, apologize, resign, and show 'em how to behave after.

I would love if, perhaps, Dayton would appoint Walz to replace him. But I think Walz wants to get out of Washington, hence his governor bid.

Ummmmm Moore is accused of being a pedophile that is a whole lot worse then what Al did

Franken needs to resign (which makes me sad, since I've thought he was a good Senator) not for the politics of it, but because it's the right thing to do.

The reason why everyone is coming out with such accusations is that at least 50% of men have done something like this at least once in their life. Of course, that doesn't make it less wrong, but you can make mistakes and still be a good person. I see no reason for him to resign as long as he owns up to it and apologizes.

All sexual predators should be removed from office, period. This isn't his only incident, other people have complained about him groping women without their consent before.

Congress would be empty.

He should resign.

Honey, we aren't the ones going to elect a paedophile to the US Senate.  And who have been defending him for a while now.

And I hope that Mr. Franken shows himself to be a much more upstanding person by owning his mistakes and taking the consequences--resignation.

You know who hasn't had any sexual allegations thrown at them? Women. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that women can't sexually assault others, but it's exceedingly rare compared to men. I think it's about high time we elect more women to Congress.

Trump is inadvertently draining the swamp.

Whatever the merits of the allegations here--it is ridiculous to say that Moore's election is down to anyone BUT the Republican voters of Alabama and what they make of Moore's allegations. Whether Franken resigns, weasels out of it, or whatever, AL voters have made it clear they won't let people outside their state decide who they elect.

Bye, Felicia!

Franken says he's sorry and shouldn't have done it. (https://twitter.com/kleinstar/status/931188974793711616)

What I learned about Al Franken...
« on: December 25, 2008, 01:31:08 pm »   

No reason to make this longer than need be, so I'll start from the top.  I'd prefer not to have to do this, but...

As I've mentioned before, most of my relatives are from the South.  However, I do have an aunt who lives in NYC (Queens exactly).  She's not blood-related, but she married my blood-related uncle who was a bit actor who moved to New York, and who unfortunately passed away a number of years because of a freak accident.  She was actually the more financially successful of the two and has not remarried since his death.

Anyway, she was always my favorite aunt when I was a child because she always sent me the best gifts.  And since I've moved to NYC, I always try to see her every so often, which is often difficult considering her schedule and mine.

One of those times was a couple of weeks before the election this year when I had lunch with her.  Naturally, the conversation turned to politics and Obama-McCain.  Eventually, I mentioned Al Franken and she said "Don't get me started there.  What an outright disgusting sicko perv!"  I asked why...  She said, "Well, I guess you're old enough now to know these types of things..." As follows...

One day, sometime in 1976 or 1977 (she doesn't remember the year), but it was in October, she was riding the subway back into Manhattan in the early evening to finish some stuff at work.  The train was fairly empty.  A guy sat down in the seat next to her and started talking to her.  She responded.  Well, this person was Al Franken.

After a couple of minutes, he started to try and pick her up, using some lines which she told me were "lame".  I should mention that she hadn't met my uncle yet - they didn't meet until 1980 or get married until 1982.  She didn't say whether was actually single at the time.  I didn't ask.  Anyway, she thought he looked like a weirdo, not to mention that his eyes looked a bit glazed over, and she said "No thanks."  He kept pressing and she said no.

I'm not going to go into details as to what happened next after this insistence, but let's say that the groping and grabbing done by Franken done towards certain private regions of my aunt would probably constitute sexual harassment today, if not more.  It didn't constitute much back in those days.  Anyway, as he did this for a few seconds, my aunt pushed him off, said "Get away you f-ing creep," which he did and ran quickly off the next stop.  She never saw him again (well, except on television).
The only person on the forum who I've already told this was MW08, because he asked insistently on the forum, but I know I told him only the essentials (not the back story and a few of the details).  

This is all I'm going to say about it.  And I don't want commentary, so the thread gets locked.

I see no reason to think about supporting a political party who has a creep like this in their midst, and allow him to be anywhere near government.  Also, I feel like getting involved in politics in some way to see if, in some way, I can prevent people like this from getting into positions of power in the future.  That's the reason why this will lead to less time on the forum.  We'll see whether I can sustain either of those things (successfulness on the perv front is probably an illusion), but I certainly feel it to an extent.

Of course, maybe all political parties do have a certain amount of creeps, and that's probably true, but when it affects a close family member, you tend to feel a bit more involved.  I can't help but feeling a good bit angry whenever Al Franken is mentioned now.  Maybe that'll pass, it probably won't.

I believe I've said my piece, however short it may be.




Which is probably why he said this too:

Best reason ever.

He needs to go. Dems can't be hypocrites, encouraging these sort of behaviour while condemning Moore & the republicans !

Sigh

It really sucks seeing people you believed in let you down. He most certainly won't be the last one though.

I imagine a lot more women will come out of the woodwork now, given that Franken has a history of sexual assault. I think he's finished.

Feel the Franken now seems really inappropriate now.

The TL is suspended indefinitely. I’m contemplating just outright ending it.

And he should resign.

Maybe you can do Can't Tar the 'Char? (Amy Klobuchar) instead?

Does his statement seem a bit  "oops, my bad, it was just like locker room talk"

Very sorry to hear this, hope he has the decency to step down.

Hate to sound all cliche or holier than [them], but what is wrong with these dudes?  It's one thing to make some regrettable statements or jokes with your buddies behind closed doors (still not "acceptable," but we all know it happens), but it takes a truly messed up man to think you can just do something - anything - to a girl that she hasn't given you a very clear sign that it's okay to do.  Obviously, I am QUITE naive, but that seems like common sense.

I know "politicians" encompass some of the worst people, but damn ... this is depressingly more widespread than I think most people would have liked to believe. :(

This is one reason why tribal partisanship is probably the worst social disease known to man.

When Keith Olbermann says his explanation is insufficient and he must go, it's night night time for the Senator.

Do you know what Dutch male teenagers talk about in NYC when they think nobody can understand them :P?

Anyway, I don't think Franken will be the last. The senate is filled with powerful men with huge ego's who think they can get away with everything.

How screwed up do you have to be to take a picture of yourself as you nonconsensually fondle a woman in her sleep? Good lord.

And to nobody's surprise, Trumplicans are already calling for his resignation.

Al Franken really isn't as smart as he thinks.

Good to see no one is doubting or counter accusing the victim. A refreshing change.

Keith Olberman is a Trumplican? 

Franken is a progressive Democrat from a historically progressive state, you see.

There is a picture of Franken doing the deed, you see.

He needs to resign, plain and simple.

Did I say "Just Trumplicans"? I'm showing their hypocrisy.

Your omission of Democrats shows yours.

Yeah, ok.

So, two of my favorite people have been accused of sexual harassment this week.

I need to keep better company.

Help me Chris Murphy you’re my only hope

Has Hillary said anything? He was the first Senator to endorse her and was prominently featured in her advertising campaign and social media outreach.

Give him credit for saying sorry so quickly. This is a sign of personal growth... Most people accused of stuff like this outright deny what happened, or they claim it was consensual, or they turn to obfuscation or victim blaming etc. Franken took a different course. We should value this fact. Old habits can die hard, and he is working on it. He's taking notes.
Franken was also once very deeply immersed in the entertainment industry, which has a problem with sexual misconduct. There is very little surprise in this, once you think about it, given his personal record. What we should give Franken is benefit of the doubt. This was him almost 12 years ago. Perhaps he hasn't really confronted his past. 2017 Franken is at heart a good person imo, so he can look at his past and make up for it, make amends, etc. His actions today seem pretty good already. No resignation is necessary.

Yeah, he should resign.

This is disgusting. I'm especially disturbed that his actions could have encouraged more of that kind of behavior in the military.

Every male politician accused of sexual harassment should be replaced by a woman.

Kirsten and Liz are like right behind Murphy.

It's a shame, I really wanted him as the running mate on whatever Dem ticket ended up emerging. I'd been a fan of his for literally decades. I even listened to Air America in its early days. I'm very disappointed in him.

We're in a new era now, and things like this are unacceptable. Yes, people did far worse than him in the past and the present, but that's not the bar we should hold people to. Franken should go.

Damn, Jesse Lacey and Louis CK has better apologies...

Jesse Lacey as in Brand New Jesse Lacey?!?!?!

Man, looks like the title of your TL "Feel the Franken" has a whole new meaning after today...

Yup.

https://pitchfork.com/news/two-alleged-victims-of-brand-news-jesse-lacey-detail-years-of-sexual-exploitation-of-minors/

:(

For what reason exactly? To make a point? I’d rather have the best possible politician, regardless of gender.

He needs to go. Midwestern Gillibrand klobouchar will coattail in a better dem into the seat in the midterm special, anyway.

Implying that the best possible politician can’t be a woman.

That is not what he is saying at all.

I’m saying that the best politician could be either. Nobody should be appointed just because of their gender.

Sorry. No. Not with Roy Moore lurking around.

WTF. Yeah, I'm getting sick of male politicians. I'll probably support one of Kirsten Gillibrand and Kamala Harris.

Mitch McConnell calls for Ethics Committee probe of Franken (https://twitter.com/ABC/status/931202767468843009/photo/1)

Xilvi effectively said what I mean.

He needs to resign, but lets make a false equivalence here.

Yet says nothing about Donald Trump.

The GOP is a cesspool for people who argue in bad faith.

What false equivalence?

I'm stunned right now. I think that Franken should have time to respond, but it would be prudent for  him to resign.

I am saying Roy Moore and Franken aren't comparable.

Franken should resign, but I don't want anyone to unintentionally conflate pedophilia with sexually harassment.

half the population is women (actually over half) and how many Senators, Representatives, Presidents, Cabinet Members are women? maybe 10-15%. I don't know. I think there's no reason NOT to have a woman replace EVERY man who resigns over sexual misconduct. It can only improve things!

I just saw the picture. That's solid evidence, period. Oh my god...

Kirsten Gillibrand reacts:

Seung Min Kim @seungminkim
NEW: Gillibrand tells reporters the allegations against Franken are “deeply concerning,” says she believes the woman who accused him

https://twitter.com/seungminkim/status/931204194605895680

Implying the people of Alabama look to Minnesota for moral leadership.

I worded that wrong. I meant Moore lurking around, as in him potentially getting into the Senate. Franken hanging around in the Senate presents bad optics if we truly want to get Doug Jones this seat.

Yeah, he’s going to face calls to resign from within the Senate Dem caucus for sure. Gillibrand has focused a lot on fighting sexual harassment, not a good look to be working happily alongside a sexual predator.

It's deeply unfair to men of good character and/or people who are redeeming themselves that they resign just because of Roy Moore.

I hated him before, but now I stand with Franken. He's being treated very unfairly.

I mean, there’s a photo? You’d have to be extremely delusional to not believe her.

If you’re a sexual harasser you’re not a man of good character.

He should resign due to the fact that it would be a major distraction and irony on Dems when Moore, if elected (looks likely), gets to the Senate and they need to force a removal vote.

Schumer needs to give him "the talk" today.

Gotcha ya.

I don’t get the points about Moore? Even if Moore didn’t exist, I would still say Franken ought to resign.

Yeah, she should call for his immediate resignation.

You can make a mistake and still be of good character. I'm not necessarily saying Franken's a good guy - I don't like him - but most men have made such mistakes in their lives. I'll bet many of your friends and family members have done similar things at times in their past.

As long as they apologize and endeavor to be better people, I see no reason why their lives should be destroyed.

Franken has been fighting for working families in the US Senate for 8 years, and shows signs of cleaning up his act. He deserves a chance.

I don't know if I've ever been more glad that all three people representing me in Congress are women. That's not to say women can't or don't commit sexual assault, but something tells me Cantwell, Murray, and Jayapal would rank among the absolute least likely people in Congress to do something like this.

When WaPo says your apology is underwhelming you're in trouble.

These remain serious allegations, especially since there is HARD EVIDENCE (the photo)

If you are an "undecided" desperate for an excuse to vote Moore, this is a good opportunity to rationalize "both sides".

Seems like Franken is posing in that picture, obviously knowing the image was going to be taken.
Almost like he thinks what he is doing is funny (probably the comedian side of him).
Regardless, what he did was extremely wrong and should not be in office.

This is really sad.  He needs to resign.  The sad part is we will lose Franken, but Moore will win for sure now.  I hate this country.

Sarah Palin was on Capitol hill today. When asked about Franken she (unsurprisingly) thinks he should step down. Silent on Moore... the one she literally campaigned with, in person.

https://twitter.com/eschor/status/931207077682442240 (https://twitter.com/eschor/status/931207077682442240)

I agree, but I also think he probably wouldn’t (compared to what other prominent people are accused of, this sort of pales). Now I think it’s definite.

Bullshit. I’ve never made this kind of “mistake” because I don’t go around touching people whenever I feel like it because I have a healthy sense of boundaries.

And if many of my friends and family members have groped someone without their consent I’ll cut off contact from them.

No, he doesn’t.

You’re talking to one of the biggest Franken fans here, too.

The photo isn't even that bad. It was clearly done as an inappropriate joke, but it makes sense that the woman would be so upset by it because she was allegedly assaulted by Franken earlier. The kissing allegations are the bad part.

lol, conservatives don't really care about sexual harassment.

No one should take their phony outrage seriously.

Franken clearly did not "grope" in the photo - he made a joke about groping, which was inappropriate given the setting and the fact that the woman was actually sleeping. And if you think nobody you know has done similar, you are extremely naive.

If he resigns I'm afraid who Dayton might appoint.  It's almost better for Murica if he stays.

I think the only question is if he resigns or just doesn't run again in 2020. (I'd prefer he resigns to let the new Dem appointee get his/her sea legs and run with some incumbency)

Not just the photo.

And you need to reread the part of my post you quoted.
Keep it civil please.

Republicans are really showing how much they don't give a damn about sexual assault or the victims. If they did, they wouldn't be cherrypicking which stories to believe based on party affiliation of the assaulter. Crocodile tears.

Really, he should just resign right now and save himself the pain. I hope that his, and other people's career destruction serves as an example for young men today- let them see that if you sexually assault someone, you suffer for it.

People.
Santander is trolling you !
Stop trying to answer to his posts with any serious manner.
Cant you see he is going back and forth on the issue, just for attention ....

If you think you would cut off contact with them, you are naive as well.

How can it only improve things? They could be terrible congresswoman depending on who they are. All I care about is their job performance. You people are the ones who are being discriminatory.

Yes... how unfortunate, but I'm not willing to support this behavior on any side. He needs to resign within the next few days, and Dayton should appoint a good replacement.

It would probably be the State's AG Lori Swanson.

I stand with him because the allegations against him are basically mistakes that any man could make in his life, unlike the kinds of predatory behavior that people like Roy Moore are alleged to have done. No, that does not make it okay, and the voters of Minnesota have a right to judge him for it, but he apologized, and I see nothing wrong with accepting it and moving on.

It's the allegations NOT captured in the photo that are resignation-worthy.

Franken should resign (and make way for Senator Ellison *crosses fingers so hard they snap*)

All of these male politicians being outed as sexual predators are only fueling my desires for a woman president.

Some have done worse than the allegations against Franken with little consequence, and such a system isn’t fair, but if we really want the big fish to go down, we need to go after the smaller fish as well. There cannot be excuses or defense for the violation of another person’s body.

He has to resign.  I liked Franken, this hurts, but it has to happen.  I'll have to find a new favorite for the presidency in 2020, but that should be easy enough.

See that, GOP?  When someone in your party does this stuff, you can't go on defending them.

YAS

Should he resign? Yes. Will he resign, probably not. All we can do is wait for the inevitable press conference.

More and more Democrats are supporting the ethics investigation. My guess is Franken stays until that's over.

Yea, but when given the opportunity, we go for the blowhard moron with zero experience in running anything worthwhile, and who has stacks of sexual harassment accusations against him (as well as video/audio proof of said misconduct).  I have little faith that when given the opportunity again, we won't just go down the same stupid path.  Because emails or some other made up phony conspiracy like Benghazi.

I am so glad you know exactly how I’d react on every situation, considering you’ve never met me in person and have had very limited interactions on this site.

Head of PrioritiesUSA:

I could live with a senator Swanson.

Aren't the Republicans going to turn any ethics probe into a total circus?

Safe bet. They'll probably throw in But Hillary's emails and Bill! just for safe measure.

Now this is a stock fake reaction if ive ever seen. He already admitted to doing it lol

Bread and circuses.

I believe most ethics investigations are done in private.

One thing is for sure .... I'm glad to see so many blue avatars posting and having "genuine" concern for sexual harassment/predatory issues.
Seemed so many were previously missing in "other" threads.
Strange how that happens.

Yeah, that's what I asking, although I worded it weirdly. Thanks.

Franken released a new longer statement, calls for an ethics investigation against himself:

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So he's not going to resign. Sigh.

FF!

.@SenWhitehouse tells reporters: “You guys need to find something more interesting” when asked about Franken allegations.

Not surprise.

These people argue in bad faith all the time. They truly don't give a **** about all of this stuff. Democrats and liberals continue to play themselves by thinking these people are on the level.

You know, I don't want to be the one saying this, but I'm really uncomfortable with the idea of somebody resigning before thing is even properly investigated. OK, there's some strong evidence here, but it's still a matter of principle. Being accused is not (and should not) the same as being convicted.

Roy Moore has been fighting for moral values in the Alabama supreme Court for years. He hasn't harassed women in a long time.

This is basically the point you're making.

He admitted to what he was caught doing in the picture, but has he admitted to anything more than that?  The allegations go beyond the picture.

I'll add my voice to the resign chorus. But also, if there is an appointed replacement:

()

I mean, win-win-win.

I've always thought Franken was a dick so this doesn't come as a surprise for me.

Note how virtually no one is defending Franken here, as opposed to the BS filling the Moore threads.

I have to agree.
Kill me now...

DC reporters are so bad at their jobs.

It's the greatest show on earth!

His attitude has markedly differed from Moore's. I can't imagine Moore being this apologetic.

So for an ethics probe, won't they be dragging this woman in front of the Senate?  If so, it seems like a bit more than she should have to go through, no?

Got it all necessarily, Grumps. That's only if there is a dispute in their testimony, which they're clearly isn't.

They may give her the voluntary opportunity to appear as a victim impact statement as to how it is affected her, and get her two cents as to what should happen, but if she doesn't want to appear she won't need to I feel certain

Tbf accomodations can be made, she went public already, and she at least should be allowed to refuse.

Believe it or not, this effectively acts as a Lifeline for him. The fact that the Republican leader is calling for an Ethics investigation rather than resignation, twitch most, though probably not all, of his caucus will follow suit, it actually gives Franken and out as opposed to resignation. Frankly, he could probably be censured in the next several months in Survive election in three years.

Please understand I am making this post Shirley on the subject of whether he will resign, not whether it is the morally appropriate thing to do or not do.

Whitehouse should resign, too.

Ok, thanks.  Yeah being grilled by Senators in private isn't something anyone wants to go through.  Maybe she'll hire my heartthrob Gloria Allred.  ;)

It was taken out of context.

Maybe we can have some Minnesota State officials come out and say that Joseph did this to Mary all the time, so all is OK. No big deal.

Maybe McConnell is hoping to negotiate a "both sides do it" compromise expulsion of both Franken and Moore, a la the banning of Evergreen and Klartext:

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=173972.msg5696773#msg5696773

:P

This is Minnesota, they worship Stalin and Lenin over there. I don't think they diddled little girls, so Franken can't hide himself behind his ideology. It's different for Moore, he grew up in rural Alabama. At 14 he probably already was betrothed to a 9-year old girl, you can't blame the guy for what he's done. These are 2 entirely different cases which should be treated differently /s.

How do we know the photo is not fake? Why is there no timestamp on the photo? Look at the helmet; looks like the label says "Sweden" instead of "Tweeden" (and last time I checked, this is America). Do we know if she's a Republican? Two of Franken's fingers look almost identical, so we can't even be sure they were there in the first place. Why does the plane on one side of the photo look darker than the other side? Why didn't she just "cut here" for the emergency exit if she really felt uncomfortable? You'll notice the American flag on her vest is backward, which means that the photo is reversed and it was really her honking Franken. Sorry, but I'm going to need some actual evidence here.

what a perv. oh well democrats dug their own grave when they form a coalition with rabid feminists lol

Women who desire to not be groped = rabid feminists.

Cognitive dissonance is not your friend

Yes. I've always assumed it was probably true and here we are...

You forgot to put the words 'rapid feminists' in full caps and bold. :P

Franken should resign, but Dems are kidding themselves if they think him doing so would matter in terms of Alabama. They're going to elect Moore regardless. In fact, a lot of the Twitter profiles gloating and expressing outrage against Franken are vehement Moore supporters.

Leeann Tweeden might have given Franken an out:

See! The accuser is not dumb. She is saying exactly the same thing I've been saying. :)

Damn 2017, and I thought that 2016 was an insane year. I guess this is the Trump era.

Democrats defending rapists! SAD!

Tweeden not calling for him to step down might...might...provide a way out for Franken. Still think he should resign though.

Leeann Tweeden. Didn't I watch some B-movies with her when I was a teen?

I still think Franken should resign, but her statement gives me pause.

It is an unpopular thing to say, but a lot of men make poor mistakes in terms of treatment of women (especially men in their 20s and early 30's). Some grow out of it, and some unfortunately don't.

Don't be stupid. If she wanted to "defend" him, she would have never disclosed what happened.
Having said that, I still don't like what Franken did. Some punishment is necessary.

Her statement makes the allegation seem more legitimate but also less serious.

It's not my party. (Though obviously I vote D a lot and refuse to vote for anyone with an R after their name on general principle.) I agree with the above. Defending Bill Clinton on this was an immense setback. It cannot and should not be repeated.

That said, if Franken wants to stay in office long enough to vote to expel Moore before resigning, I would see little problem with it. Furthermore, I consider that the Rephblican Party must be destroyed.

Yes, this is what I have been saying. Even women do things like kissing men who are not remotely interested in kissing them, or grabbing ass, especially when they are drunk. Of course, it is far more common behavior among men, and it is not right, but most people who have made these kinds of mistakes are not bad people.

It is different from the kind of predatory behavior exhibited by people like Roy Moore throughout his life and career.

I'll admit I was hoping for exactly this.  The best case for everyone is for this to come out, for Al Franken to genuinely apologize and reflect on his conduct, and for the victim to be as gracious as Leeann Tweeden is and forgive him.

That's the only way any good can come of this.

Yeah, I am not trying to make this into a "boys will be boys" sort of thing. But my fear is we will start to group guys who made one poor decision concerning sexual harassment with guys like Weinsten, Cosby, Moore etc. who seem to have a history and pattern of really terrible behavior concerning women.

What a pig. Ugh.

I seriously think Franken should bail, partially because him staying will lead to an Ethics Committee investigation and Franken probably doesn't want to know what that investigation will turn up. See: the investigation against Bob Packwood back in the 90s that came back with a 10,000 page report about how he had molested dozens of Hill staffers. Packwood would've been much better off quitting before the investigation finished.

Deal with it.

How is a noncitizen resident of California supposed to "deal with it", exactly?

()

Isn't that a Filipino bus?

Dunno.  I clipped it from Google images for a deportation bus.

wow oh snapp u totally got me there

How exactly do you deport someone from an island country on a bus? I guess that explains why it's such a hellhole.

Santander pls my sides

Surely people here realize that it'd be capital B Bad for Franken to actually have to face an investigation and deal with whatever comes out, right? Franken is far better off just resigning than letting decades of dirty laundry be aired.

So with that Sheldon Whitehouse quote, what was the context in which he said "Find something more serious" or something?

What Franken does himself is irrelevant. No mainstream Democrats are defending what he did.

The timing is deeply suspicious. Why did she feel the need to wait until this moment to make these allegations? Leeann Tweeden is obviously a Moore supporter. When will republicans stop trying to smear a decent man?

It is comforting to see many Atlas posters put their money where their mouths are. I was not expecting to see so many of the usual suspects call for his resignation.

And ofc he should resign.

I beg to differ. No matter who brings up the allegations, and the timing, we need to look into it. There's pretty solid evidence he did it, too, and he even ADMITTED to it.

lol

The evidence is extremely strong, I think he should resign immediately. I mean, the picture. The picture.

At lest he is contrite. Moore is defiant.

True, but this doesn't excuse him from his actions nonetheless.

Tweeden's statement has given me pause, too. Still think he should resign. He's become a distraction.

Was this post written by an aide?

Sheep base their thoughts on whatever's in the zeitgeist.

()

Lol, good joke.

Klobuchar's statement:

https://www.facebook.com/amyklobuchar/posts/10154741169666191

Hang on. If he's admitted to it, then what exactly is an ethics investigation gonna do? Lol.

He needs to get out. Sooner rather than later.

Honestly the fact that he's still a United States Senator is disgusting.

He should've resigned around noon.

That's why I always click the "view results" link next to Atlas polls before voting.

you're thinking of Shannon Tweed, I think.

I don't think he's admitted to everything that he's accused of.  Just that it was him in that picture, and that's it, as far as I can tell.

That said, I agree that an investigation doesn't accomplish much.  I guess they'll want a statement from Franken on what he remembers of these events, but is there really much more evidence out there beyond what the two parties say happened?

The picture was clearly a joke, but an inappropriate one and I was pretty disgusted with the story about the at the very least semi-forced kiss. On the other hand, I don't like the general idea that politicians have to be super clean moral guys, when we know that most ordinary people have a skeleton or two in their closet. Going after legitimate serial-abusers is different to going after guys who have done a dumb thing or two in their lives. I would like to see a pattern of abusive behaviour before I strongly condemn anyone.

Also, how are we even talking about condemning someone like Franken for this when the American people elected a guy president who OPENLY BRAGGED ABOUT GRABBING WOMEN BY THE PUSSY AND JUST KISSING THEM OUT OF NOWHERE WHEN HE GREETS THEM. How are people forgetting this. Trump is easily worse than Moore, just based on what we actually know.

There were others present when photo was taken. And on the whole tour. Not sure it'll make a difference but there is some factual information that could come out (more likely damning info outside of the picture than exculpatory info)

Did you mean Franken? I think Moore is more of a predator than Trump. Both are awful human beings but I still think Moore is the worse sexual predator, based on what we actually know.

The liberal media at CNN sure are going easy on Franken the way Fox and co. are on Moore.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/16/politics/franken-apology/index.html

I think the thing that makes Moore worse is that the girls are underage. Aside from that you're splitting hairs and they're both awful regardless.

Yeah, it is disingenuous to get up and arms about Franken, when Donald Trump is president and Bill Clinton is arguably the most popular ex-president.

The uncomfortable truth is that most Americans really don't care about this sort thing. This sexual harassment thing reminds me of the fallout from the Ray Rice domestic abuse stuff. The country was upset for a little bit and then moved on to be outraged about something else.

We are a country that likes to get mad, but never channel that anger into making changes.

I think Megan McArdle was on the right track in this column:

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-10-18/scandals-like-weinstein-s-won-t-end-sexual-harassment

There's a general consensus about sexual harassment being bad, but way too many people think it's only slightly bad, and not worth raising a big fuss over:

The reason so many on both sides defend their own guy is that our society is SO sexist that the bad behavior is pervasive and accepted and as a result, it really doesn't rise to the level of behavior like other criminal behavior, or taboos.

Yeah, this is a good article.

I would even say the only reason the Moore stuff is having an impact is because the victims were under 18. If Moore's victims were in their 20s and 30s, the only people who would care is women and liberals on twitter.

Duterte’s new policy involves ferrying buses of immigrants out five or ten miles into the ocean, and then pushing them all overboard, tying together everyone who escapes and tossing them in. It’s progressive, though, because they make sure each of the buses use affirmative action to decide where they sit.

#DuterteTheGenius

Anyone wanna tell me how to change my Username RIP

Profile -> scroll down -> Account Related Settings

That's unfortunate. :P

I love when stupid criminals document their crimes. Makes evidence gathering much much easier.

You’re original screen name will remain, however.

I think if you talk to the mods privately, they might let you just make a whole new account, given the unique circumstances.

lmbo!

PM Dave Leip (https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?action=profile;u=1). He can change it for you. No guarantee when he'll respond, although he has been relatively active the past week.

Maybe an email instead of forum PM would have greater chances of being noticed?

I have a hard time agreeing that somebody should be disqualified for the rest of her of his life due to an inappropriate attempt at "joke". Censured? Criticized? Yes. But let's be honest here, 90% of the population would be disqualified under such strict standards (and I'm not talking just about sexual context).

Now, crossing certain barriers is thoroughly a diffrent matter. Still, I can't endorse somebody having to resign as soon as the accusation is being raised. And it's not whether we believe the accuser or not (and, in the vast majority of such cases, accusations are indeed turning out to be true). It's about upholding "innocent until proven guilty" principle. And if we want to apply this principle to other cases, then we can't make an exception here. And this applies to Roy F-king Moore too, or at least applied until the whole dome broke.

All I can say it doesn't look good for Franken and I won't shed any tears for him if he'll have to step down in disgrace after all.

I totally agree with this, especially the underlined part.

wow.... really bad timing with that username. Btw welcome to atlas, rookie

Franken and Menendez will not win another term. If Gavin Newsom is accused of sexual harassment, he won't be Governor of California. Roy Moore, however, will win the Senate race.

Don't be so sure of that last point, brother: https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/16/roy-moore-doug-jones-alabama-poll-245558

Extremely small sample size. Were most of the participants from major cities?

As usual, good post.

I agree.

If this is the only incident, I don't think he should step down. But if, as usually happens, more accusations come out, he probably should quietly withdraw from politics.

I prefer to wait for a full moon, put 20 candles in a circle and say Dave Leip backwards three times.

I think the calls for Franken to step down were premature. Franken has apologized and his accuser has accepted the apology. As long as no other women come forward and Franken keeps his head down untill the probe is over, he'll have no trouble winning re-election in 2020.

This. As much as I really, truly appreciate Franken stepping  up and apologizing, he needs to set an example. It sucks for him (and for the Senate and Minnesota), but now is the best time to do it. Show that the Democratic party isn't shallow on this front, and if there's ever a time to keep your seat safe, now is it, as much as I hate how that comes into consideration.

Come on people. You all (should) know that most men (and some women) have engaged in this kind of behavior during isolated incidents in their lives. It doesn't make it right, but as long as it is not a pattern, and as long as he apologizes (which he has), don't ruin his life over it.

I'm not defending Franken and I'm not condoning his actions.  But the way this issue is going is getting way out of hand to where folks' lives will be ruined by mere accusations.  Even if these accusations are never supported by viable evidence, folks' lives will be ruined if victims' stories are sacrosanct and not subject to reasonable scrutiny.  Is that going to produce a more just society?  Somehow, I question that.

\

In this instance "Folks's lives are being ruined" really just means "They no longer get to be some of the most powerful people in the country, and just have to be regular old rich people instead" so cry me a river.

I don't really ever agree with you but you are 100 percent correct.

State Auditor Rebecca Otto calls on Franken to resign

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/two-prominent-minnesota-democrats-call-on-al-franken-to-resign/article/2640991 (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/two-prominent-minnesota-democrats-call-on-al-franken-to-resign/article/2640991)

Edit: State rep Erin Murphy as well

http://www.startribune.com/radio-personality-accuses-sen-al-franken-of-unwanted-kissing-groping/457997643/#1 (http://www.startribune.com/radio-personality-accuses-sen-al-franken-of-unwanted-kissing-groping/457997643/#1)

Yikes.

This article by Erin Gloria Ryan pretty much sums up my biggest fears with this movement.


https://www.thedailybeast.com/after-al-franken-and-roy-moore-we-are-dangerously-close-to-botching-the-metoo-moment

Sexual assault is never merely just an attempt at a joke. We are not exactly overwhelmed with seats in Congress that need filling. There are 325 million Americans, and 535 congresscritters. We can be a little picky.

Also the point publicunofficial made above. I don't think Franken should be cast out of society, have his memory damned, or anything like that. There's plenty he can do, even plenty of very good work for very good causes, without being a US Senator.

I also think that those who say "everyone does it" are, for whatever reason (I doubt it's a flattering one), grossly overestimating the percentage of the population who have engaged in sexual assault.

Furthermore, I consider that the Republican Party must be destroyed.

Is it really irrational to think that a needed cause for a genuine movement could get contaminated by attention-seekers and golddiggers?

No.

But I think it is something people are ignoring at the moment since it is an unpopular thing to say out loud.

This is incredibly disappointing. It's been hard to see people that I respected turn out to have done deplorable things. We should all be condemning these actions no matter which side of the political aisle is committing them.

Bitches and whores, am I right?

The #MeToo movement is very fragile. All it takes is one bad accusation and the whole thing will fall apart. Let's not forget that A Rape on Campus destroyed the campus anti-rape movement within a few weeks. That being said, the sheer number of absolutely credible, documented and/or admitted instances that have come out so far should be a wake up call that much of this stuff has long been very common and has been hidden under the surface from victims who were either bought off or were afraid they would not be believed, or afraid what happened wouldn't matter.

An president Douche has tweeted on it like the hypocrite he is https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/931357870024687616

Trump's tweets:

()

Oh fuzzy. :(

You do realize that civil cases aren't free money buttons?

Nope. He should still step down, forgiven or not.

I don't care if we have to throw out half of Congress, this needs to be a firm line.

^^^ honestly at this point throwing out half of congress is a good thing.

Earnest congresscritters trying to redeem themselves and owe up to past mistakes shouldn't be sacrificed at the alter of wrong-headed one-size-fits-all punishment.

Special elections give us something to talk about here, so I'd be all for one member of Congress resigning every week.

It'd be like Monday (idk if that's the right day) night football, except Tuesday Night Elections. All the news channels will be for it if they can over#analyze everything! 

Except that not too many people on the left are defending Franken, certainly not anywhere close to the number of people who defend Moore/Trump. So not "both sides".

As long as they're all on Tuesday. That's my pizza night.

In fact, this entire experience is an introduction to accountability. One side clearly accepts wrong doing and has shown remorse and a willing to accept punishment.  If this means nothing, then that is why we and the rest of the rest of the world  are on the verge of becoming people like Trump and Putin's property.

I think Al should step down. And do PAC work, let the State AG who has been floated takeover. It was a joke with the photo, the other accusations are disgusting. He should try to reach out with Tweeden, see if something constructive can come to fruition, which probably will not. She seems to have been stewing on this for a long time and rightfully so. I shake my head right now, I have an opinion why he did this stupid sh**t, but it'll never justify it. Women are not objects. And I'm proud a movement has been made through it but this is such for the wrong reasons. But continue to push it. Women should not have to put up with this b.s. my mom was a victim of extreme circumstances multiple times. So it hits home.

I'm really disappointed about this. Franken was one of the least Democrats I expected something like that.

I think he should step down. Dems also risk nothing, since MN has a Dem governor.

My main point is I don't think it's right to have somebody forced out of office based on a sole accusation. Yes, it's not the court of law, but we still should adhere to the principle of presumption of innocence until proven guilty. It's a bigger issue than Al Franken. I'll repeat: it's not about whether we should believe the accuser or not, and in most cases the accuser is proven correct in the end. But let it run a proper course.

The truth is like a thin ice. Let's it hold or break on its own. It's likely Franken may soon found himself in a cold water with Roy Moore and if so, screw him, good riddance, we learned a valuable lesson.

No, you're not right.  You may be pompous and self-righteous, but you're not right.  

Whenever you have a system where an accusation is received without question and sanctioned harshly, regardless of severity, you have the potential for all sorts of abuse.  There are any number of folks with axes to grind, any number of people who seek unearned celebrity, any number of people who want a quick payoff for something where there didn't have to actually work to do it.

What will happen, by the way, if this standard of unquestioned acceptance of accusers' accounts of such incidents, coupled with contempt for the idea that an accused person will put forth a defense, bleeds down from celebrities and politicians to the average citizen who cannot afford lawyers and spokespersons.  The whole idea about JUSTICE involves the principle of an accused person being accused in a somewhat timely manner, and that a person accused has the right to confront their accusers if the matter comes to court or some other kind of tribunal.  

I know of no one who would tolerate rape or require someone to be quiet about someone raping them.  I know of no one who would pressure someone not to press charges on matters of rape and domestic violence, other than folks whose interests lie with the accused.  I am not willing to pretend, for political expediency, that public attitudes toward sexual harrassment, rape, domestic violence, etc. are the same today as they were in 1950; they are not.

I'll say this:  Going forward, I believe that our society, as it has sent the message that these behaviors are unquestionably unacceptable, needs to also send the message to victims that they need to come forward, and come forward timely.  There ARE support networks.  I understand that some victims are coerced and threatened; that only means that the offensive (and possibly criminal) behavior is ongoing.  But folks not coming forward for reasons having nothing to do with legitimate fear of physical harm and retaliation ought to be looked at with a degree of skepticism.  An accusation against a person of the sort of things we have been talking about should not be something used as some kind of bargaining chip or hole card to be played at will.  If the behavior is THAT bad to where it causes damage, or is a crime, it should be reported ASAP.  To report something 40 years earlier, when there is no legal remedy for the misbehaving party, but cash and celebrity for the accused, is something other than justice.

I will admit an exception on situations like Roy Moore.  Moore was a Prosecutor during his prime trolling days, so I can understand that folks might have some kind of fear that he would misuse his position.  (Sadly, I'm beginning to have little doubt of the worst of Roy Moore.)  When the perpetrators are Law Enforcement, this is scary, and there needs to be adequate means to protect THEIR accusers. 

Cash and celebrity? Or maybe it's just because if one person comes forward it's not as bad as you coming forward alone. It's like a dam breaking, where one person forward makes it easier for others.

Do you really think these women are not catching hell from partisans?

I'm no Franken fan, but I think this is a bit of an overreaction, as usual, by SJW.

Have you ever experienced assault Fuzzy Bear? I ask that not to be belligerent but to make it clear that there are several different issues that a victim could face that stand in the way of their reporting. There are societal norms and outside influences that go beyond the threat of physical force that often coerce a victim into not coming forward. It isn't uncommon to have your peers or family discourage you from such actions -- what kind of support system is supposed to supplant that?

So on the same USO tour where Franken "groped" her, Here she is grabbing the guitar players ass, After he pushed her away.

() (https://postimages.org/)

There is always a different standard for women on sexual matters. That's why society was always more tolerant of female homosexuality and there is much less outrage when an adult woman has sex with an underage boy.

Ok, that makes her look seriously hypocritical.

When's the ethics investigation going to start?

It seems to me like the ethics investigation IS creating a standard and establishing gradations on accusations of sexual misconduct. The goal of the investigation should be to see if Franken has a history of this type of behavior or if this was the only time in his life he's done this. If it's the former, he has to go. If it's the latter, given how solid his apology was and the mitigating factors that have come out since, I think it's fair to say he should serve out the remainder of his term.

When the next Senator gets accused, this is the process they should go through. What Franken did was really bad, but nowhere near as bad as what Roy Moore and Donald Trump did. So maybe there was a method behind the madness with the ethics investigation idea

I don't really care about the frequency he did this kind of behavior, insofar as it might theoretically effect the question of whether he should leave office. As far as that question is concerned, I care only about how he is making up for it in present day. That is what really matters. And he has so far aced things.

Wow.  Thanks for posting this.  I'm not sure how this makes me feel.  It brings up thoughts of 'locker room banter'...USO tours entertaining mostly young men stationed in places that they'd rather not be provides incentive to be raunchy and inappropriate.

It certainly takes away any equivalence to Roy Moore's preying on young adolescent girls.

As I said in another thread, it's not that uncommon for women to grab ass. Certainly, men are responsible for more unwanted groping than women, but it's not such a great idea to use this as an excuse to beat up on men for being so awful.

1) Not sure why groped is in scare quotes.  Franken groped her (among other things), there's really no ambiguity regarding that fact.

2) I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.  I mean, yes, it looks like this woman sexually harassed that guy, but that doesn't make what Franken did any less horrible.  He still needs to resign immediately even if this was the only time he did something like that.  Once is one time too many, period.  

3) I'm not saying this was your intent or anything (in fact, I'm pretty sure it wasn't, but this still needs to be said since some other posters seem to be moving in this direction), but acting like this has any relevance to what Franken did to this woman is straight out of the Clintons' slut-shaming playbook.  It would be like saying "So one of the women Roy Moore 'sexually assaulted' has been divorced three times and once filed for bankruptcy."

Again, not saying you were trying to do that (and I'd be shocked if you were), but there is an long history of powerful men getting away with treating women horribly by digging up dirt on the victim that into the story.  I'm not saying Franken's accuser is an angel or that grabbing that guy's a** was anything other than completely unacceptable, but let's not fall for this tired trick.  Whatever else this woman has or hasn't done, during her interaction with Franken, she was the victim of completely unacceptable behavior by a man who now holds one of the highest political offices in America.  She has a right not to be groped in her sleep, period.

4) Mods get to use profanity uncensored?  When will the double-standards end :P  

Ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass

As a man who's been inappropriately touched by a conventionally attractive woman without my consent, this makes me cringe.

As a man who has been through a few episodes like this, it is actually X's opinion that offends me most.  As if he is some moral authority of anything.

I'm confused. Who is X?

Sexual harassment is bad no matter who does it and to whom (sane but apparently abnormal).

We agree that it's not uncommon, but it is awful. This is what feminists mean when they talk about rape culture. It is ingrained in our culture that there is a spectrum of vaguely acceptable nonconsensual sexual violations and a toxic belief system around that. It needs to stop.

^^^ Thank you for this. As you can tell by my permanent Username 🙄 Al Franken is someone that I looked up to. I read all his books and I was proud that he was my senator. I used to brag about it to people. So when I heard the news about what he did I felt like someone kicked me in the stomach. But I would never defend him for that. I see people all over twitter and here trying to Justify what he did and it’s making it worse. We really just gotta let go of him and find someone better to take his place.
(had to delete links bc I haven’t made enough posts yet)

English is not my first language, so I am going to have difficulty expressing my thoughts on this topic clearly, but I will give it a try.

I have a real problem with a black/white worldview without nuances. The moral domain is rarely absolute - it is full of greys. Nuances matter. Context matters.

Few places is this more true than when it comes to the "sexual" interaction between the sexes. I don't believe a culture where you have to sign a disclosure form before anybody is allowed to have any physical contact with another person is healthy for anyone. The interaction between the sexes is complicated and attraction is often cultivated through complex interplay which involves visits to a moral grey zone. Of course, this grey zone is also often grounds for misinterpretations of intent from both parties. Equally self-evident is the fact that there are boundaries which should never be crossed. But flirtation very often "flirts" with that boundary without actually crossing it. But when do we know when that boundary has been crossed and becomes abusive? We only know that in the actual context, which is why the context matters and which is why we need to accept that misunderstandings can occur.

At the moment where the Franken episode seems isolated, I am fully prepared to explain his behaviour by such a misunderstanding of his standing with this lady.

Roy Moore is totally different. We have a large number of accusers and there is a clear pattern of problematic behaviour towards much younger females. Had Roy Moore fallen in love with one particular teenager (not the 14 year old obviously, but someone in their late teens) and pursued a purely consensual relationship with her, then I would have accepted that. The problem for Moore is that we have established a pattern of sexually predatorial bevaviour towards very young females. We have similarly disturbing reports about Donald Trump and Harvey Weinstein is in another category entirely. Don't lump Al Franken with those guys - his behaviour is not comparable to them.

Was this guy her BF or Hubby or Friends with benefits partner?  Do we know?  Sure blame the girl for Franken sticking his tongue halfway down her throat.

Who is blaming the girl?

TG's both sides do it thing seems like attacking the victim

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html

Another woman has come out and claimed Franken touched her butt in 2010.

Even if it makes me a hypocrite, Im at the point where I dont think getting your ass grabbed should be a news story. Its gross and deserves a smack on the face, but thats about it.

Reasonable.  What about the Bush 41 grab ass allegations?

I still respect 41.

An old man in a wheelchair touched a butt. Ive had multiple old women grab my ass, who cares.

Not me but in another thread there's a lot of butt hurt going on about HDubs.

All due respect, but if you were offended by my post then frankly that says a lot more about you than it does about anything else (and none of it good).

I am concerned about taking this into context as not to blame the victim.

Al Franken should resign. It’s obvious that he has a history of sexual harassing women, and I don’t think these two women will be the last. He’d be doing his nation a service by resigning, by sending the message that this kind of behaviour is unacceptable, especially for somebody in public office.

Before the sexual harassment allegations came out about Franken, I'd wanted him to run for President in 2020, so I know what you mean.  It always sucks when one of your heroes lets you down, but yeah, people who try to defend or rationalize what he did are definitely making things worse.  What Franken did was unacceptable, period.  It may not be as bad as some of the stuff other people have done and the first accuser may have her own issues, but neither of those things is an excuse.  I completely agree that he needs to resign and that we have to find someone better to take his place.

The spirit of your argument is absolutely correct...this behavior is inexcusable and unacceptable.  But you come off as respecting the rule more than the reasons for the rules, and that makes it seem like virtue signaling. 

I've been groped inappropriately and I went through a very uncomfortable experience as a young child from another boy that I wont go into detail about.  I've been stalked and harrassed online as a young teenager.

My take is that this is a cycle of abuse that perpetuates itself, and yes, is unfortunately up to those abused to stop it.  For me, that starts with forgiveness.  Not only for their sake, but mine.  Showing a little grace where there is pain and darkness.

Your post showed nothing but haughty moral grandstanding when seen through the lens of my life experience.  And yes, that reaction says a lot about the "nothing good" that I have experienced, so in that way...you were right.

Furthermore...I know more than one person who were sexually abused as children by adults who are afraid to seek help or talk beyond hushed tones to those they trust because they are afraid of the consequences meted out by people who have no connection to the situation for the abuser.

Your attitude perpetuates that, X.  They have found a way tto forgive with no professional help.

This needs to be a conversation.  An airing of dirty laundry.  Working through it.  NOT an inquisition.

I’m not sure how my response to TexasGurl could’ve been interpreted as respecting the rules for their own sake while dismissing the importance of the reasons for their existence or the causes of the problem, but that certainly wasn’t my intention.  My point was that the fact that one of Franken’s accusers sexually harassed someone should not be used to excuse his behavior and I felt some posters were really starting to head in that direction.  I am also really sorry about what you’ve had to go through.  I’d say more, but frankly I don’t know that there’s anything I can say here that will help.  I almost wonder if you didn’t just misinterpret my post because it seems like you’re upset that I failed to discuss the way cycles of abuse can factor into sexual abuse, but I’m not sure what that has to with what TexasGurl said in the post I was responding to so I’m not sure why you’d expect my response to focus on that.  

If you think I’m just engaging in a bunch of self-congratulatory moral grandstanding that’s unfortunate because I’m not posturing.  Preventing sexual harassment, sexual abuse, child abuse, domestic violence, and helping the victims of such revolting acts has always been something extremely dear to my heart for a number of reasons.  If you think I’m full of sh!t, that’s your right, but I stand by everything that I said in response to TexasGurl since it was true then and it’s just as true now.  With all due respect, I really don’t see how my post could’ve reasonably been interpreted in the way you described in your post.

As to my “says nothing good” post, I thought you were saying you were offended by the idea that Franken’s initial accuser committing sexual harassment somehow mitigates the fact that Franken groped her.  If that wasn’t what you meant then I apologize for that comment.


I’m sorry you feel that way, but I could easily say the same thing about some of the stuff you’ve posted.  And I’m pretty damn sure that you’re wrong about my views preventing victims of sexual abuse from coming forward.  The idea that holding people accountable for using their power to sexually abuse others is “an inquisition” is ridiculous at best.  Or are Kevin Spacey, Donald Trump, and Roy Moore just the victims of a moralizing witchunt?  I agree that this needs to be a conversation, but that doesn’t mean folks like Franken shouldn’t be held accountable.  The man is a US Senator and we have a right to expect that our elected officials haven’t sexually harassed people.  This isn’t an unreasonable expectation in any way, shape, or form.

Franken has a record of doing this kind of thing. Am I shocked? No. Do I think he deserves a chance a redemption? Yes. Does he absolutely have to resign if he makes up for his past sins through good work? No way in h**l. Should he step up and take a leadership role using his incumbency as US Senator, to make up for it? Absolutely. Should he be censured? It's a given, given what he has done in the past.

In cases where people use their power to abuse those with less power for simple dominance and sexual gratification, it is pretty cut and dry.

But so many assaults are committed were the power dynamic is much more convoluted and the relationship complicated. These are the types where the legal system and most certainly the public at large fail the victims.  The existence of mandatory reporting laws prevent therapists from helping the victim beyond the most basic anonymous details.  An unintended negative consequence of a law with the best of intentions.  How do we address this?

I actually don't think we disagree much.  We focus on different parts of the problem because we approach it very differently.  And no, it is not unreasonable to expect our elected officials to not sexually harass others.  I also think if we go after this with too much anger and we look for vengeance, we will only help the toxic culture of silence and secrecy that has kept the cycle going.

Al Franken needs to resign. Normally, it might make sense to hold a formal ethics investigation. But when the democrats first priority should be defeating Roy Moore in Alabunga, they must stand on a moral high ground, and thus force Franken out to take a stand against harassment, even if they would not normally do so for these actions. If they do not, they are enabling the victory of Moore.

He should resign, and every Democrat with a conscience should demand that he does.

There's a new allegation? Whelp. Yeah, Franken should probably leave now before a third one comes out.

I'd say there's about 0% chance it's "only" 2.

Doesn't Franken realize that if he doesn't resign, he's probably going to lose in either the primary or the general?

You nuclear Elmo fans are a tad quiet here.

Who says he's planning to run again?  He might just serve out the rest of his term, which ends in 2020.

A plum job like that with an easy peezy win.........why wouldn't he run again?

He wouldn't run again if he thinks the sexual harassment accusations are going to complicate his reelection.  Whether that is indeed a concern depends on what happens next.

Get. Him. Out. Now.

If you had to guess right now, how many public accusers do you think there will be? 

I think you're probably that right that we're focusing on different aspects of the problem more than anything else.  I also agree that this issue can often be a lot more complex than most people appreciate in terms of the underlying causes of sexually abusive behavior.  Even with some of the worst cases we've recently seen such as the Kevin Spacey allegations, it's since come out that his father was a child molester who (at the very least) molested one of Spacey's brothers.  So that cycle of abuse reared its ugly head once again right there.  However, while this provides us with at least some semblance of an explanation, it's obviously not an excuse either.  I think one thing that really contributes to the culture of silence is the widespread perception that the abusers can usually get away with it and/or that every bad thing a victim might've ever done will become the story everyone focuses on.

We're saving those for when Kushner gets indicted.

I think Franken should resign (and I've said so all along) BUT i  do think that the problems with the allegations are notable. The biggest issue is that it is clear that the culture of the group they were involved in involved lots of risque humor. Within that context, it seems Franken's dumb photo was in that same spirit. The reason I think Franken should be gone is that the most serious allegations involved the skit with the kiss. Now it's possible she's a liar, but I don't think we should doubt her. And to be clear, the photo is more problematic given the kiss. If no unwanted kissing had occurred, I doubt she would've been so upset about the photo. I kinda think (although I admit I'm speculating here) that Leann Tweeden's role in the group was at leastly partly her sexuality. That's likely why you see the photos of her grabbing ass and bumping and grinding on stage. It's quite likely that was part of the act. The Franken photo was not onstage so it doesn't seem necessary or helpful to their act.

Anyway, it's all unfortunate and I'm not sure how much of a predator Franken is, but there really isn't much evidence he's anywhere near any of the others who've been alleged to have engaged in these activities, certainly nowhere near the likes of Weinstein, Moore, Glenn Thrush or Donald Trump.

And another...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/11/20/second-woman-accuses-sen-franken-sexual-misconduct-report/880222001/

Seems like this second allegation got alot less traction then the first. Probably because most adults have touched a butt in some capacity or another.

Blind guess? 9. But this is very uncharted territory, so I am very likely to get the number wrong.

Maybe because Franken's behavior while coarse and sexist, isn't predatory or violent.
Both incidents occurred in public places with multiple witnesses. Sex criminals almost always act when they are alone with their victims.

People on dailykos are disputing the validity of the accusations.

Honestly, I am starting to believe the accusations are false after reading about the situation there.

But those Roy Moore accusations...

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/11/20/1716849/-I-Unapologetically-Stand-With-Senator-Franken-Do-NOT-Believe-Either-Accuser (https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/11/20/1716849/-I-Unapologetically-Stand-With-Senator-Franken-Do-NOT-Believe-Either-Accuser)

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If it makes you feel better about supporting a pedophile with little respect for the law.

I feel that there are two issues here.

One is the moral issue, which has been debated quite a bit.

The other is the electoral issue, where the argument that democrats should take the moral high ground and push Franken out, since they would otherwise look like hypocrites.

That argument is fundamentally flawed. Do people forget that one of the main reasons why Trump won was that he wasn't politically correct? The white working class despises overly sensitive liberals. It is one of the main reasons why we have lost them over the last few decades. If we demonize what in their minds might be "playful" banter or "boys being boys" we will lose EVERY SINGLE TIME. We need to be able to distinguish between actual predatorial behaviour and fratboy humour here. It is crucial. If we try to convince people that a slap on the ass is basically equal to rape then we will figuratively get our asses handed to us in elections. People will not stand for it. Please do make the argument that there is a difference between Franken and Moore and that grabbing someones ass in public is not something that you should lose your job over. Do discuss whether that is appropriate behaviour, but don't overreact.

I'm all for Democrats playing hardball and not giving a f**k about the rules once they take power but keeping the creepy old rapists in the party is not going to make voters respect the Democrats.

Also to the Democrats who are still calling Tweeden a liar even after Franken f**king admitted to it: Seek end of life services please and thank you.

And now a third accusation

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2017/11/20/al-franken-arianna-huffington-harassment/883718001/

Lol. I'm gonna believe Arianna Huffington over the New York Post.

If the sexual harassment happened while he was in public office, then the only right thing for him to do is to step down.

If this is the standard then those wanting Trump to pay a price need to be quiet.  He hasn't done anything while in public office.

The diarist is whining about the PC police. While I certainly don’t think anyone should be dogpiled, I hardly think maligning the accuser is the way to go here.

I'm disgusted at all the people defending Al Franken. There's even photo proof!

No joke there are Daily Kos morons claiming It's photoshopped.

Yea I don't know about this one. Huffington herself said it was not inappropriate, and iirc, part of some skit they were doing. Although I could have that mixed up either way since I only skimmed the article at the Dr's office, but either way she said herself that it was nothing.

I crossed out accusation because she didn't accuse anyone. It was more like a news article trying to invent one.

These same people (rightfully) threw Moore under the bus. I thought it was beyond political party, but it appears I was wrong.

He has done some bad things. He also called for an Ethics Committee investigation on himself. He deserves a shot at redemption, period.

At least there is Fraken who takes responsibility and then those who keep digging themselves a deeper hole whether by adding on to the lies and propaganda or by justifying themselves through their entitlement.

Fair enough.

Al Frankenstein must go

I love people who claim dems are so inconsistent for being even slightly openminded about Franken, who has had a couple of fairly minor allegations, while they support a President who not only has nearly 20 accusers, he also has basically admitted exactly what he is accused of, and in some cases even worse. AND, most seem to be supporting the child molester down in Alabama. Amazing.

For the record, I think Franken should resign, but I don't feel those who disagree are some kind of crazies or are somehow being wildly inconsistent.

I think Franken ought to make himself an example for others by staying in office, fighting for justice for those harassed and sexually assaulted using that senate seat, and doing penance for his past. He shouldn't resign.

It's pretty clear he's not going to resign.

The only way he can set a good example is by resigning. Staying in represents a form of hypocrisy on the part of Democrats.

That's not true.

Given the environment in which we now find ourselves, I don't think the penance you describe can be achieved. Forgiveness must be earned, but that cannot happen when the environment does not allow for forgiveness.

If the environment somehow doesn't allow for forgiveness (which I don't think is the case but whatever) then it is not Al Franken's fault, it is the fault of others who refuse to believe he can redeem himself. Franken could give other public officials an inspiration to reform themselves as well and bring quicker resolution to the problem of sexual predation, harassment and whatnot, but hey, that was never possible because people like you refused to give him the chance.

There's a difference between not feeling Franken should resign, and actively looking to dig up dirt on his accusers to discredit them.

My opinions have absolutely no effect on what will happen to anyone in Congress. I'm just saying what I think is possible given what is going on right now, and Franken being an inspiration is not it.

I am talking in general terms. We don't need vengeance, we need a general understanding that yes, things have changed, and a thorough airing of dirty laundry is important, and that people generally should have a chance at redeeming themselves.
If society at large completely shuts the door on forgiveness, it almost certainly at some point will become a blame game with those who are deeply guilty and unrepentant hysterically pointing fingers elsewhere to muddy the waters, and sheer madness overall. And with with more morally mixed people, who did bad things because society told them to and/or society's twisted standards making them think it was okay, seeing their careers ruined in the process. Who needs that?
I would agree we absolutely need tough standards, but we need to start at an ideal pace, and adopt the correct thinking. We need to give people who show signs of proactiveness a path, and leave behind those who won't catch up. Franken called for an Ethics investigation on himself pretty quickly. We need to keep up the pressure, for sure, but that doesn't mean insisting on his resignation is necessary at all. Our present situation will only escalate. Sexual assault and harassment is a wide societal problem, and we need to do deal with it correctly.

Tim your childlike naïvite is actually cute instead of incredibly frustrating for once.

What's really naive is seeing the various degrees of sexual misconduct as anything other than a general societal problem.

I would rather put my trust on people in daily kos who have presented a clear case that the accusations are false, than the main stream media.

*Face palm*
Also, this is a bit off-topic, but based on your PM score, you're basically Joseph Stalin.

Joseph Stalin was extremely conservative on Social issues lol.

lol those dumb hicks who trust breitbart r so stupid amirite?

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/361635-two-additional-woman-accuse-franken-of-groping Two more women come forward with sexual harassment allegations.

Assuming this is true... Frankenstein needs to switch to the GOP, where harrasmnent, is more acceptable or quit

I think we're beyond that point.

Franken needs to step down now and let whomever replaces him build incumbency and raise $$ for the 2018 special. I don't know what he's hoping for out of this ethics investigation, his popularity and credibility is shot and he's toxic among his colleagues. I can't believe the egos on some of these politicians.

He's not stepping down.

If Franken resigned, you'd just get another Democrat.

Up to 4 and growing but it doesn't seem like his colleagues are in a rush to see him resign. Hmmm

The NY Post story shouldnt count, Arianna Huffington has refuted the claims.

http://kstp.com/news/survey-franken-job-approval-plummets-many-say-he-should-resign/4678569/ (http://kstp.com/news/survey-franken-job-approval-plummets-many-say-he-should-resign/4678569/)

Contrary to what some people are saying on this thread, the voters at large do care about sexual harassment. Only 22% of Minnesotans want Al Franken to stay on as their Senator, with only a 2% difference between men AND women. His approval rating is barely above Trump's now. Voters do care about their representatives being sexual predators, unlike some of my fellow Democrats apparently.

He'll recover.

His latest apology is about as lame as it gets.

Franken really did not deny anything here. He just said he didn't recall anything, as opposed to I would never do that. It is almost as if he is saying, that I have groped so many women, I can't really recall specific instances. It is all a blur in my mind.

It seems like a blur in his mind as well.  But after his latest lame statement it's clear he's digging in his heels and not going without being literally dragged out of the building.

I don't get how in every other industry anyone accused of this same type of misconduct either gets fired or loses all of the projects they're working on. Why don't we hold politicians to the same standard? He should resign... It's embarrassing for Minnesotans and democrats.

He isn't up for reelection until 2020 and only he can choose to resign, which doesn't appear to be something he wants to do right now. The Senate could expel him, but for various reasons I'm not sure Democrats want to do that. At least not without cover from a ethics investigation or something.

I don't think that's true.  If you're not in a position of high visibility, then a company isn't necessarily going to can you on the basis of sexual harassment accusations from private citizens who aren't themselves employees of the company.  The people who *do* get fired for such things are people who are public figures, because the company wants to save face.  Now, Franken *is* a public figure, but he has no direct superior, other than Minnesota voters, who can't fire him until 2020.  Of course, he could get "fired" by his fellow Senators, but that's a political decision rather than an HR decision.

Because  in every other industry, there are people who can see the direct cost of keeping them around who are able to fire them. The only people who can fire Franken are the Minnesotan public and the cost to them of keeping him in office is low, probably even lower than the cost of firing him.

They should want to. Aside from being, you know, the right thing to do, it would also put Republicans on the spot if Moore wins so that they have to expel him as well.

I don't think that's clear at all.  I think Franken is testing the waters to see if he can survive this.  If the rest of the party really starts turning the screws on him to leave though, then he may very well quit.  But he's not going to start signalling right now that he's open to quitting, because that would just invite more people to start pushing him out the door.

That's just the way these things work.  Even if you're 50/50 on whether to quit or not, you have to pretend like you're committed to staying, or else you're going to find yourself pushed out the door for sure.

Don't be naive. Republicans have nothing to lose by not following political norms. If that was true, we wouldn't have Neil Gorsuch on the Supreme Court right now. I could come up with a few more examples if you'd like to debate this point further.

Having a pedophile as a member of their Senate caucus is something a little different PR-wise than breaking procedural norms that no person outside of the Beltway ever cared about to begin with.

Not to Republicans, no. Conservatives are happy as long as liberals are mad.

I'd also add that unlike with Gorsuch, expelling Moore also costs them nothing in terms of policy, since he'd just be replaced by another Republican.  For that matter, I'm assuming McConnell and probably the entirety of the rest of the Senate GOP caucus would rather have some other Ivey-appointed Republican in that Senate seat over Moore.

Thank God the American electorate is not yet entirely made up only of "Democrats" and "Republicans" whose only goal in life is to screw the "other side" (though it does seem we're heading there fast).

Bannon goes scorched Earth on the Republicans if they expel Moore. His name will be used as a rallying cry throughout primary season if he is removed because of liberal media smears and establishment backroom calculations.

It depends on what Trump does.  If Trump is going to criticize GOP Senators for dumping Moore, then yeah, they're probably not going to do it.  If they somehow managed to get Trump on board with ousting Moore though, then I think they'd go ahead with it.  Bannon isn't going to be able to whip up any extra outrage against the GOP establishment over this issue.  If they get rid of Moore in January, no one outside of Alabama is going to care about it anymore by the summer.  Roy Blunt or John Thune or whoever is not going to get a primary challenger just because they voted to expel Roy Moore, lol.

Franken ashamed, looks forward to getting back to work tomorrow. (http://www.startribune.com/ashamed-franken-says-he-ll-return-to-work-on-monday/460108233/)

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Rubio says the r-word:

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/361944-rubio-al-franken-should-consider-resigning


Also:

And where was Little Marco to be seen after the AH tapes came out, I wonder?

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Shove off, Little Marco.

As blatantly hypocritical as this is...he’s not wrong.

Jesus Christ. Get him out NOW.

He was probably in Alice Wainwright Park.

Rubio has grabbed lots of butt's... men's butt's tho

Is there any solid proof of his alleged gay past? because all I've seen is rumors.

Army veteran accuses Franken of groping her during USO tour (http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/362510-army-veteran-accuses-franken-of-groping-her-during-uso-tour)

He really should have resigned (or at the least announced his intent to resign) already.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/30/politics/al-franken-groping-allegation/index.html

The picture she gave to media doesnt back up her claim. Unless her breast is on her back.

It's time for Al to go.

This is why I was thinking Franken might have to quit right after news broke of the first woman. There's almost never just one woman, and if you have more than one woman that means you have a pattern of being a sexual predator.

Yea. It's past time, frankly.

I would like to say Sam spade who posted on here years ago said in 2008-2009 that al Franken grabbed his aunts butt on the subway.