Talk Elections

Macedonia has officially presented four compromise solutions to the country's naming dispute. These are Republic of North Macedonia, Republic of Upper Macedonia, Republic of Vardar Macedonia and Republic of Macedonia (Skopje). (Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/27/macedonia-puts-forward-four-options-to-resolve-name-dispute))

The ongoing dispute with Greece has prevented the country from joining NATO, and its resolution is required in order for the country to have a shot at EU membership.

We can have North Macedonia, East Timor, South Sudan, and Western Sahara for all 4 directions without the Koreas (which don't have it in their official name)

Putting a direction in a country's name seems kind of silly though.

Rename Greece "South Macedonia" to clear up the confusion.

It's hilarious how the Greeks have been such snowflakes on this issue.

Was going to suggest re-naming Macedonia as "Greece", but this works too

write-in: West Bulgaria >:D

South Serbia should go over real well.

Imagine if California had insisted that Nevada be named East Nevada rather than renaming Nevada, California to Nevada City. 

It should be called Macedonia, without the stupid FYROM thing. Angry Greeks should grow a pair.

indeed.  FYROM should call themselves whatever the hell they want and Greece should go pound sand.

For being the oldest democracy they sure can be babies.

Land of the Trolls

The trolling is well evident in the various monuments to Alexander the Great and Philip II in the country. Now they've toned it down a bit though, with the Skopje airport no longer called "Alexander the Great Airport".

So much for Kiro Goligorov's "we're slavs!"

I suggest naming Macedonia "Macedonia Deluxe" and Greece "Macedonia Classic".

South Brussels

How about North Macedonia? :P

BRTD option:

"Skopje & Suburbs"

(sounds even like a band)

Another possibility could be "Teresania", after Mother Teresa.

It is similar to Albania.

Or "Teresalia", similar to Australia.

While I agree that this is really a non-issue and its a little sad that this is something that will get thousands of people on the streets to protest on both sides, I think that non-Greeks clearly fail to understand the importance of this issue to Greece, the idea that this is merely about snowflakism is clearly mis-informed.

The Greek region of Macedonia holds a significant part of Greece's population, so when another country continually implies a claim to that area, of course Greeks will be angry, especially those who live in Macedonia. Most other countries would react in the same way that Greece has reacted, if not much worse.

Also, the idea that this has any impact of Greece's economy and that if Greece simply focused on its economy rather than complaining about Macedonia, it would be better off, is preposterous. Not to mention that Macedonia/FYROM has much bigger problems than Greece could even dream of.

I don't really care what the name is, Upper, North or New Macedonia.
But I'm amused seeing the "War on Christmas" and "Libruls want to take our Gunz!!!" crowd talk about snowflakes.

Vardar Macedonia sounds cool.

I guess an American analogy would be if Mexico suddenly renamed itself to Texas?

Exactly.

The Greeks are irritating as hell on this issue.

Anyway, Vardar Macedonia or Vardarska Macedonia is the only good answer personally. "North" or "Upper" are dumb inclusions to official names

Just call it "Macedonia". There can be two Macedonias.

Greece and other countries (read: India and Pakistan) get so triggered over things that don't matter like little tiny naming/land disputes.

Why couldn't the compromise be: have the same name, but also explicitly add language to the Macedonian constitution that rejects all irredentism?

Macedonia: The Hellenic* Republic of Northern Greece
Greece: The Philippian** Republic of Thessaly, Aetolia, Morea, and Southern Macedonia


Problem solved!

*Lit.: Greek
**Ancient word, lit. synonym for Macedonian

Because right now FYROM rejects such a proposition.
Just yesterday Zaef said that their constitution is an internal matter that shouldn't be part of the negotiations.

Masso-Serbia

France

"The Really, Truly Hellenic Republic of Northern Greece, and also Macedonia"

But if the Macedonians want to compromise on this ridiculous issue, Vardar Macedonia is a great name.

No, this not true at all and is way too friendly to the Greek position.

The analogy would only apply if the entirety of Mexico, and also the US state of Texas and some parts of Guatemala and Belize were all part of a historical region known as "Texas" the name of which had been applied by the United States to its portion of that region, generating American Texas, but which also legitimately and accurately could be used to describe all of Mexico and even some parts of Guatemala and Belize, then Mexico decided to start calling itself "Texas", too, but the United States responded by insisting that only American Texas was the real Texas even though people had been using "Texas" to refer to the entire larger region that included all of Mexico as well as American Texas and parts of Guatemala and Belize for literally millennia. So it's not analogous to the "Mexico-renames-itself-Texas" hypothetical at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(region) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(region))

I don't think there is too much of a point going into the semantics of the exact details, its an analogy so of course it can't fit perfectly but it does fit the general point I was making.

As for what counts as Macedonia, is it just Greek Macedonia or is it FYROM and small sections of other countries too? It could very well be argued that the territory of FYROM isn't Macedonia given that the vast majority of the ancient kingdom of Macedonia's territory was in Greece and a very small part was north of the border. It was only later when Macedonia was used to refer to the entire region as Macedonia, depending on what those in charge of the region at the time wanted (ironically just like Texas).

But, I digress. It is besides the main point - the point remains the same, FYROM has a name (and other policies) that clearly imply a claim on a large amount of Greek territory, as would be the case if Mexico called itself Texas.

noelmaurer.typepad.com/aab/2008/03/sabidura-del-oc.html

Written ten years ago, and still spot on.

Gruevski has given Greece a lot of rhetorical (and also concrete, bronze and marble...) ammunition in the meantime, though...and Slavomacedonians', let alone Albanians', attachment to the name doesn't run all that deep. "[Something] 'Macedonia'" is going to work for both sides.

If Number 4 becomes the name, I'm gonna have a good laugh for awhile.

(The Republic of) Macedonia

upper or northern macedonia are fine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxembourg_(Belgium)

Never heard of Belgium throwing a fit about the country Luxembourg. Also never heard of Missouri throwing a fit about Kansas.

Or what if New Mexico had been admitted as the state of Mexico?

In Finland we had a plan to follow Zairians and change name of our country to "Democratic Sweden".

West Bulgaria

Edit: True Federalist beat me to it. :P

To expand on True Federalist's idea:

Write-in: West Bulgaria and East Albania  >:D

What about the Macedonian Republic of West Bulgaria, East Albania, South Serbia, and Northern Greece? MRWBEASSNG for short.

Better Greece

write-in: Macedon

Alexandria, in honor of Alex the Great, just to piss off the Greeks even more.

Jfernia, so px76 has another excuse to rant.

South Kosovo.


Just kidding.  Republic of Macedonia or just Macedonia. 

East Albania

West Bulgaria or Republic of Macedonia

No more than Germany calling itself "Germany" and not "Northern Germany" implies a claim on Austria and German Switzerland.

Looks like the issue is being resolved:

https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/1006582101536276484

Until they will prepare referendum in Macedonia Syriza will lose the elections, and ND probably will scrap everything. I'm afraid they lost too much time on negotiations.

This map shows East Roman (Byzantine) provinces around the time of Justinian I. FYROM roughly corresponds to "Macedonia II" so I don't know what's the big problem with calling the country "North Macedonia".

()

The referendum will be held 12-13 months before the deadline for the next Greek election. So that doesn't seem likely.

I know Zaev is probably a crook, and Tsipras is a fool, but I feel sorry for both of them that they get saddled with such obstinate morons in their oppositions. I mean, Belgium has a province called Luxembourg, and you don't see Luxembourg throw a fit about that. Sane for the VMRO: it's laughable that those crooks who ruined Skopje are pitching a fit over an agreement that will allow the nation a way into the international community that simply requires a few symbolic concessions.

Belgium and Luxembourg are not Balkan. This is main difference.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/13/macedonia-rejects-treaty-greece-name-row-zoran-zaev?CMP=fb_gu

The Referendum Is On.

September 30. 50% turnout and 50% yes votes needed to pass.

The question is going to be -

"Are you in favor of EU and NATO membership by accepting the Agreement between the Republic of Macedonia and the Republic of Greece?"

 - which may be less than exactly neutral. But frankly, VMRO deserves the rub.

Luxembourg is a sovereign state bordering Belgium, among other countries. A bordering province of Belgium is also called Luxembourg. The province of Luxembourg was, in fact, taken by Belgium from the country of Luxembourg. Does this imply Belgium maintains territorial ambitions to what remains of Luxembourg? Of course not, and both countries peacefully co-exist in the European Union.

These olive-eating clowns need to man up and work on getting their own countries in order rather than obsessing over brainless displays of nationalism. What the hell is there to be proud of in Greece or Macedonia in 2018, ffs?! Real strength is forgiveness and admitting you were wrong, not bullying and cheat-beating.

There are Luxembourgish revanchists who want to reclaim Arelerland, the traditionally Luxembourgish speaking part of Belgium Luxembourg. It only got put in Belgium initially because France wanted a road that ran through there to be removed from German influence. However, Walloonization has largely succeeded

I support the annexation of Greece, Turkey, as well as all the Middle East and Persia, into Greater Macedonia. Otherwise "North Macedonia" seems to be geographically accurate.

Congratulations, you have been elected new chairman of the VMRO.

Wow, it's a great honour :D

Actually the goals of the VMRO are too modest. I was thinking about the reestablishment of the Macedonian Empire under Alexander the Great.

Too many Muslims on that territory for VMRO's taste, I'm afraid.

We will convert all heretics to the Orthodox Faith, eventually

The referendum failed - 91% Yes on 37% turnout. While outdated voter rolls certainly played a role, turnout in ethnic Macedonian areas was much lower than usual, so the VMRO non-boycott ("we would not vote ourselves, but we will leave the decision up to you") was effective in the end.

Zaev and various EU officials are trying to spin this into a victory, and will attempt to pass the agreement in parliament alone - the referendum was technically non-binding - but this isn't going to fly.

Would make more sense for the EU to state that it fully respects the Greek borders of 1829.

Erm, the Treaty of Sèvres is a bit of an obstacle to that solution.

Well, now that North Macedonia seems to have failed, why not try West Bulgaria? Or South Serbia? :P

Meclazenia.

If you want a serious answer, the next name they'll try is probably New Macedonia.

80 votes for, 39 against the start of the constitutional reform procedure (which includes the name change) out of 120 MPs.
Out of the 80 votes, 72 votes are those of the government parties (SDSM-led coalition, DUI) and Albanian opposition parties (who support the agreement, they also support the government case by case), 8 votes are rebels from the main opposition coalition led by VMRO-DPMNE.

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/xx-macedonia-parliament-votes-on-name-agreement-10-17-2018

It's almost over.

Whatever they want to be called,  any country (cough, Greece) who says otherwise, it's none of their business

I've always been part of the crowd who considered silly and unproductive the stance of our hardliners. I've always believed that some kind of name that included the term Macedonia was inevitable.

That said, these kind of aphorisms show an ignorance of not only the history of the region but also of FYROM's attempts after 1991 to appropriate Greek names and symbols in order to create a narrative about an imaginary Macedonian minority in Greece. These laughable attempts went nowhere of course but let's stop with the fairy tale that Greece's suspicion about FYROM's intentions is unfounded or mean-spirited.

Now that the North Macedonia thing has failed, they should name themselves North Greece :P

The Kingdom of Macedonia.  Make it a monarchy.

What do you mean it has failed?

What are you talking about? It passed in FYROM and it will pass tomorrow from the Greek parliament too.

Wait I thought the Greek government had collapsed precisely because of this?

No, the Greek government lost its far-right coalition partner but narrowly survived a confidence vote.

Whatever gets them into the EU and NATO most easily within reason. Locking in prosperity, political openness, and geopolitical security is much more important for the people than any nationalist squabbles. I'm happy with this compromise, though I will say the Greeks are the more unreasonable party here.

The agreement passed the Greek parliament 153-146.
It's over.

Credit where it's due to both countries for getting it done.

Excellent news! Disappointing it's so close, but all's well that ends well.

Would ND repeal this when they come to power in the next election? Or is it a "settled issue"?

This is an international agreement, it's not something you can just repeal and be done with it.
They'll say so and just move on.

Tell that to Dump.

We can stop calling Greece "Former Ottoman Region of Yunanistan".

As you know, in contrast to Greece, Macedonia has actually quite progressive policy on linguistic minorities.

Technically it's not until Greece formally assents to their accession to NATO.

And now the denouement - Greek parliament officially ratifies (North) Macedonia's accession to NATO.

https://www.ft.com/content/a3bf9a16-2be4-11e9-a5ab-ff8ef2b976c7

You do realize that ancient Greece was a thing 2000 years before the Ottoman Empire, right? lol

Fyrom.

The Greek parliament ratified (North) Macedonia's NATO accession protocol yesterday, 153-140 (http://www.ekathimerini.com/237534/article/ekathimerini/news/nato-accession-protocol-ratified-amid-acrimony).  The name change will thus come into effect on 15 February 2019.

Opposition New Democracy (ND) leader Mitsotakis announced he would "not forgo the right to veto MK's EU accession" - which probably means that the EU accession vote will have to be scheduled with any Greek elections in mind. It's not as if ND is particularly principled.

new democracy are really putin's puppets

Not really. More like business partners on that one specific issue. (Being Putin's puppet is a temporary status, and the "traditional" Russia-friendly party in Greece used to be PASOK, not ND.)