Talk Elections

Seriously democrats are the gift that keeps on giving. While Trump says dumb stuff at times and should be in a stronger position for 2020 the democrats lurching more and more left is the thing that could reelect him...

https://www.lohud.com/story/news/politics/albany/2018/08/15/knocking-trump-cuomo-criticized-saying-america-never-great/1000315002/

Do you agree with Cuomo?

What an absolutely idiotic thing to say.

My biggest problem with the far-left (and I guess the people that pander to them) of this country is their opposition to basic patriotism. It's astonishing how they don't realize this leads to their own electoral demise.

With that said, we finally have a President that opposes American exceptionalism too, so I guess there's not that big of a difference anymore.

Agree. I really do not like a lot of things about Trump. His vulgarity bothers me most of the time and also his lack of compassion for those who are not white also bothers me, but the democratic party is lost. I used to be a democrat. I miss the JFK type democrats who fought for progressive values but proudly supported and loved their country..where is that party?

Actual policy > "Patriotism"

Ideally, no one should vote on whether they consider a party patriotic or not.

In direct answer to the question, no. America was much better off in the pre-Reagan era to the point where it would be considered "great" but we haven't been great in recent decades.

Not a smart thing for a would-be Commander-in-Chief to say. Still, I'd like to know the context in which he said it, and if the quote is being taken out of context (as was Hillary Clinton's "basket of deplorables" comment, which I believe cost her the election).

I believe that it is good when a leader recognizes the problems with an organization so that they can be addressed as opposed to being oblivious about everything and running their organization into the ground. Also,

Stop the strawman. At least 80% of Democrats love our country, I included. What we don't support is blind patriotism, acting like everything is great and nothing needs to change. Also, you have been pretty outspoken as a supporter of Trump, yet you miss "JFK Democrats". Give me a break, the dem platform has stayed pretty much the same since the days of Kennedy. Stop telling me I don't love my country because of the political party I ascribe to. That's dumb. Also, how is the republican party not lost?

Cuomo will be Cuomo. No surprise here.

Fair enough. Again, I'd like to see the context.

Aside of the simple fact Cuomo is hardly "far-left", let's not confuse patriotism with "my country is and always was the best" delusions.

This is enough to cost him the election in November.  It's possible now.

His Presidential campaign will never get off the ground now.  The big donors will not see him as a winner.  And, again, that's assuming he's re-elected.

It was a comment more dumb than Gerald Ford saying, "There is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe." during the second debate with Carter.

This is a Michael Kinsley gaffe:
 "A gaffe is when a politician tells the truth – some obvious truth he isn't supposed to say."

They're still the Democrats. Did you watch the 2016 convention?

This.

Also, I don’t think this comment would cost anybody an election, honestly. Lol.

I assume you arent referring to NY-GOV?

This is the kind of thing that can get blown out of proportion to where Cuomo has a real fight to be re-elected, even in Democratic NY.

It's not untrue. The ugly parts of our history that we don't glorify and revere (Confederate statues) get glossed over. Newton's third law of physics also applies to politics: every action has an equal and opposite reaction. We banned slavery, so Jim Crow laws were put into place. We banned segregation, whites resegregated themselves by fleeing to the suburbs. We tried to get blacks out of poverty with education, whites ban affirmative action. Then we declared war on drugs and got tough on crime so that if we couldn't segregate blacks, we'd just put them all in prison.

Although I prefer Nixon, this was a very courageous thing to say and perhaps it is an understatement,
but I can confidently say that I agree 100%. Right on Cuomo.

To think otherwise is a little crazy considering our very ugly history.

It isn't politically correct, but when was I ever politically correct?

I don't blame America First; first I have my coffee and then I blame America.

Cynthia Nixon must have a powerful voodoo doll

oh, well he most definitely isn't losing the Governors Race. He won by 14 in a red wave with a pretty good opponent.

Nixon is endorsed by Alexandria the Great and she played a fantastic role in Amadeus, the greatest movie of all time.
Perhaps she won't win the race for governor, but should she win, I could see myself supporting Nixon for president.

That is because the far-left bases their positions on a clear and coherent ideology rather than shamelessly adopting whatever poll-tested positions some hack consultant recommends.

Anyway, welcome Comrade Andrew.

Liberal sentiment like this will result in Cuomo winning reelection in the low single digits at best.

I can't vote in NY so it doesn't matter what I think. It makes no difference, though, whether he wins in a landslide or by one vote, right? This is all moot, since I say "Nixon's the One"
Also, if she loses the primary she can still win as a third party candidate, possible if not likely.

Where were the lies?

Thankfully, it's 2018, and no "gaffe," real or perceived, is ever going to cost someone an election again.

And for the record, I agree. America has an above average, but still deeply flawed, problematic, and misunderstood, history.

Absolutely not , America is the greatest country in history

Yes it is. Cuomo is finished politically after this.

The adoption of a “golden age” is cancerous, just an excuse to take current fears and go back to when certain elites had power. A nation must go forward, adapting to the times. America of the past was terrible, this era less so, and we must strive to make the country less as time goes by. Only then will we survive as a nation, as an inability to do nothing but go back is sure to fail.

If you choose to ignore numerous human rights abuses that started before independence and lasted until about 1965 then you probably do have model for a really great country, but you can't rewrite history and reality has to be accepted.

Slavery 1619-1865
Displacement of Native Americans 1600s-1800s
Jim Crow 1870s-1965
Asian immigrants expelled from California towns (1880s)
Lynching 1882-1964 (up until 1935 there were lynchings in the double digits)
Japanese Internment (1940s)
Legal citizens deported in Operation Wetback (1950s)

That is a terrible human rights record for a first world nation even if it is in the past. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging that the country is not perfect and has become better over the past few decades. Cuomo is not even going to come remotely close to losing over this and his presidential campaign probably won't go anywhere but that is because he hasn't been as liberal as some Democrats would like.

America was at its peak from 1983-2000

Trump has responded:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1029911186949767168

Jeez, this is why the term "liberal" got tarnished over the last 40 years. It's not even incorrect, but it is a strain of pessimism and lack of respect for the uniqueness of the American experience - the bad and the good - that turns off even moderates (and liberals like me).

Obama made the case for American exceptionalism better than anybody else in modern history.

From his convention speech in 2016:

Obama stressed that America changed, as it moved in the right direction, not that the past was all peachy.

Well, his point is not false when he suggests there were always great problems. With race relations, discrimination and equality in particular. Poor wording though. Very poor wording and a gift for the orange clown.


Highest taxed state? LOL. I though CA was the highest taxed state. Or is it whoever TRUMP decides on a daily basis?

Dumb statement but with luck it'll sink any chance of Cuomo's nomination in 2020.

America has been, and is, a GREAT nation.  I do agree that its struggles is to be a GOOD nation.

I believe it has been both, and remains so, especially by the standards of the world.  Cuomo's statement illustrates that difference between telling lies and giving false information.

And it's GOING to hurt him.  I saw the video clip; it is going to be one of those "gifts that keep on giving".  Cuomo damaged Democrats' chances with his comments.  I never thought that it would be ANDREW CUOMO that would be so tone deaf as to do this.

How did Cuomo damage Democrats chances? Like what the hell are you even talking about?

After the Democrats are hit with a flurry of soundbites of this comment, you'll know.

The Democratic Party of my day was less ideological, and sensitive to the more conservative views of moderate independents and independent Republicans.  Today's Democratic Party lives in this leftist bubble, acting as if no one but the current audience is actually listening.

Cuomo made a statement like this as a sop to the far left, whom he has to keep happy, but he didn't have to do THAT to keep them happy.  The Democratic Party has had to work to convince Americans that they really do have a sense of "My Country, right or wrong . . ." and all that comes after it.  And they get a foil like Trump who, at some levels, helps the rehabbing of that aspect of their image.  Then, a guy like Cuomo, flatly says "America was never that great , , ,"  People today don't get what was so bad about a Presidential candidate saying that he took a trip to Vietnam and got a "brainwashing" by the Generals, and it's too bad George Romney isn't still alive to give them a lesson in semantics.

Don't forget all the uninformed and previously untested drug trials on Puerto Ricans, the bombing practices on the Puerto Rican island of Vieques (a municipality still suffering from contaminated fields and elevated cancer rates), the Flint water poisoning, the disastrous (and very much intentional) response to the María catastrophe, the constant foreign intervention causing power vacuums and breeding terrorist cells, the constant state of war, the carelessness for its citizens' health (see the healthcare debate vs. practically any other first-worst country), etc. etc.

This country is great (in the sense that exceptionalism constantly pushes) only if you're a member of certain subgroups and/or incredibly wealthy or well off. I'll change my mind once I see it change.

This entire post is just rambling.

Anyways, Cuomo's quote was taken out of context. But if you think that this somehow means "doom" for Democrats then whatever.

America has never been great. The genocide of Native Americans and the enslavement and subsequent second class citizenship applied to African-Americans are not the actions of a great nation. Everyone doesn’t see the country through the prism of white nationalist propaganda.

It is true that the United States of America has committed sins in the past, and, perhaps commits sins today, and, will commit sins in the future. I, for one, dispute the liberal historiography that says that our history is a moral march upward. People today are not any more enlightened than they were in the 1700s. It is only that we live in a different cultural environment made possible by materially easier circumstances.

However, the United States of America is what we have. It is the political entity that defends and makes possible your rights and mine. It is the political entity that defends, and made possible, the election that made Andrew Cuomo the Governor of New York, and allows him to call himself by that title. It is the entity that made possible his political career. And his political career is the only reason why his opinion is any more important than any poster on this message board. Without the United States of America, the names of politicians like Andrew Cuomo mean nothing to me, and nor do the Democratic or Republican parties. Nor does any stranger on the street. Therefore, politicians should not denounce the United States of America per se but embrace its virtues where these exist and work to correct its flaws.

This is the worst thing to say as a politician from New York on almost the eve of 9/11. But, then again, Andrew Cuomo only has the Governorship to sit upon, and wants a higher level position.

He should be smart again, as should of said what Dems have been saying all along, Make America, Great Again, doesn't mean turning back the clock, to the bad ol' days.

I always felt that America was great ever since childhood. He should have used different words, but the point he's making is not totally wrong. I do not question Cuomo's patriotism and his commitment to justice and equality because his record as governor is pretty solid.

The truth is the truth and I hardly think respecting the most negative aspects of history is necessary. Embracing happy-go-lucky platitudes and idealism over realism does no good.

This is, actually, a surprisingly refreshing view.

yes. but i would say that for pretty much every other country in the world too lol

Ignoring how ing dumb your last sentence is, great nations can do horrible things.

I don't subscribe to the idea that criticizing certain aspects of this country and having an honest conversation about history is "unpatriotic." America's never going to improve as a nation if we blindly believe that we're #1 in every way. Also, believing that we can utilize some ideas that work very well in other countries =/= thinking badly of America.

Also, as others said, policy is more important. Anyone can say that they love America, but it takes more than patriotism to lead a nation.

He has a point. A lot of even the most belligerent and extreme criticisms of America, with people saying the country doesn't have a right to exist, aren't really all that "wrong". I disagree vehemently with the concept of America not having a right to exist nowadays or Americans not having the right of self-determination, but European settlers settled and murdered Native Americans and built the infrastructure and society of modern day America using violent slavery. The only reason we have a right to be here is because of violence, murder, genocide, and slavery. We have a "right" because we killed and enslaved millions for it.

That fits well into the definition of "not that great".

This is just as simplistic of a take on relations with Native Americans in early America as the White washing that is slightly more prevalent.  We didn't really have a "right" to be here as Europeans, but Native-European relations weren't a one-sided genocide as many of you seem to try to depict the situation.

If your point is that natives tried to do the same thing to Europeans and just and just didn't succeed, it is 1) a much more nuanced reality and 2) why does that give Europeans an excuse? They still did horrible things to the natives, even when they backed down.

It depends on what demographic you were in. Technologies of entertainment are vastly overrated, as live music is typically better than recordings, and live theater is usually more fulfilling than cinema. Before there were radios and phonographs, people typically read books and got more out of them than one gets out of the idiot screen today.

Travel? It is far better and easier today with the Interstate Highway system and cheap flights. Insipid as the Interstate experience is, with predictable chains of fast-food and casual-dining restaurants along the way, it is safer. 150 miles on the Interstate in rural America is easier than 60 miles on the horrible Blood Alleys that the Interstates supplanted. Anyone who waxes nostalgic about taking the whole old course of Route 66 is nuts. You use the freeways and two Oklahoma Turnpikes to get to the most interesting parts.

Medicine? The problem with medicine today is the profusion of profiteers in the business. But that is the medical-industrial complex and not medical practice.

Working conditions? The forty-hour workweek has been in existence since the mid-1930s as a means of spreading the work around more and keeping employers from inducing workers to work for nothing so that their employers can make a special profit. Around 1900 the typical industrial worker worked 70 hours a week and lived for 40 years; by 1950 the typical industrial worker worked 40 hours a week and lived 70 years. That has changed little. Workplaces are safer than they used to be. (Of course people on adequate pay can avoid malnutrition). Grinding poverty used to be the norm for industrial workers.

Crime? Crime rates were very high in the white 'ethnic' ghettos of recent immigrants of southern and eastern European origin. "Little Italy" used to be a cesspool; it's a nice place to live now. Crime may have peaked around 1970, only to decline -- probably reflecting the disappearance of leaded gas and lead residues going into the respiratory systems of people along commute paths. Lead is an insidious poison that causes learning disabilities and poor impulse control -- a perfect duo for wasting people.  

Education? The 'solid eighth grade education' was once adequate, but it isn't now. Kids used to drop out of school to help put food on the table. It's better that the family get food stamps that eliminate food insecurity, don't you think?

The only thing that one could wax nostalgic about in the old days was cheap real estate. I'm not convinced that a McMansion is better than the old Victorian houses... and unless one wants the ostentatious show, one might as well spend money on something other than an ersatz castle or palace. But for people not in the market for McMansions, housing is certifiably more expensive in real terms unless one is where there are no job opportunities. But we have 328 million people in 2018 instead of the 179 million people in the 1960 Census, and we are more concentrated in areas where the opportunities are. Real estate may still be cheap in the High Plains that people are leaving, but if you are in certain places you may pay $3000 a month in rent for an awful studio apartment.

...OK, things were supposedly better for the economic elites when nearly everything was cheap, including domestic workers. Cheap industrial help ensured that anything manufactured could be inexpensive to make. Taxes were low. Paradise?

Hardly. I wouldn't want to go back to those times. I'm only about a thirteenth-cousin of the Rockefeller family. (I do genealogy, and I fount the connection). It's not enough of a connection.    

 

Yeah he is right for the most part. The US are the masters of self-promotion (or were, it is getting harder in the age of the internet) and not much more. Things already mentioned in this thread are just the tip of the iceberg of horrible US crimes. Yes there were quite some accomplishments for humanity made by individual Americans but the nation as a whole has been an a-hole for the most part. Admitting that there is a problem is the first step in fixing the problem. And yes that will have negative impacts for Cuomo because muh patriotism (=believing nation X is the best because you are born in it)

He's right.

America is a good nation that has done some terrible things in the past, and it's still unjust on many levels today. I will be the first to admit that America has never been perfect, but we've been the best this world has seen throughout our entire existence. I love America, and more importantly I love the ideas that our founding fathers used to build it. America is too precious to lose.
We're a flawed country founded on great ideals, and it would do us a lot of good to not waste time bashing ourselves over sins of the past and instead address the issues of the present.

Cuomo tries to clean up the mess:

https://www.politico.com/states/new-york/albany/story/2018/08/17/as-trump-and-republicans-rage-cuomo-admits-comment-was-inartful-562925

I agree with him and it won't harm his re-election. But this does no favors for him if he wants to run for President in 2020. This will be what ends his campaign before it even begins. The Republican ad machine will rip him apart. It's ironic since Trump won in 2016 based on a campaign of negativity about America. Oh but a Democrat was the President then, so it's okay. Democrats can't do that under any circumstance though. Typical double standards between the parties.