Talk Elections

Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion => International Elections => Topic started by: Velasco on February 12, 2019, 12:39:48 PM



Title: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 12, 2019, 12:39:48 PM
The trial of the Catalan separatist leaders began today and tomorrow the budget plan of the Pedro Sánchez government is likely to be rejected. Recently the talks between central government and the Catalan administration were broken and the right wing parties called a mass rally in Madrid in the wake of a political storm. These events mark the end of the legislative period. Rumours point to general elections in April (either 14 or 28) and the May 26 'Super Sunday' is still a possibility.

The old Spanish elections and politics thread has reached 93 pages and I think it's time to start a new one.

El País: "Impassioned opening arguments at Catalan separatists’ trial in Madrid"

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/02/12/inenglish/1549985125_369586.html

Quote
The trial of Catalan separatist leaders that began on Tuesday morning is unlike any other seen at Spain’s Supreme Court. Never has so much international attention been drawn to a Spanish court case, nor has so much been at stake at the national level (...)

On day one of the highly anticipated trial, the focus was much more on images than on arguments: Catalan premier Quim Torra walking into the courtroom wearing a yellow ribbon – the symbol of the pro-independence movement – on his lapel; the relatives waiting around in the hallways; and above all, the nine defendants who have been in pretrial custody since late 2017 sitting together inside the room, near the panel of seven justices who will try them (...)

TV3/Catalunya Radio: "The keys of the Catalan independence trial" (link provided by tack 50)

https://www.ccma.cat/324/keys-catalan-independence-trial/


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0
Post by: Velasco on February 12, 2019, 12:51:03 PM
I'll repost a couple of general election maps. They show results by province (Congress of Deputies) with circles representing the most populous municipalities

2015 general election

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2016 general election

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (The Spanish Labyrinth)
Post by: RogueBeaver on February 12, 2019, 04:32:33 PM
Election call tomorrow for April 14 or 28. (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-election/spanish-pm-to-announce-snap-election-soon-after-budget-vote-sources-idUSKCN1Q1287)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (The Spanish Labyrinth)
Post by: jaichind on February 12, 2019, 04:50:01 PM
Will the Senate be up for election in a snap election?  I can see PSOE doing well in the Senate election at least even if PP+C+VOX majority seems likely in the Lower House.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (The Spanish Labyrinth)
Post by: rob in cal on February 12, 2019, 04:54:12 PM
  So no plans to consolidate the vote with European elections in May?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (The Spanish Labyrinth)
Post by: Zinneke on February 12, 2019, 06:56:48 PM
  So no plans to consolidate the vote with European elections in May?

That might be the target after all if Rivera finds his marbles and blocks the tripartite Right coalition.

On that subject, how do C's maintain their Catalan electorate in particular if they ally with Vox. Loads of them are ex-PSOE and/or from immigrant background. It makes little sense.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (The Spanish Labyrinth)
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 12, 2019, 07:50:12 PM
Will the Senate be up for election in a snap election?  I can see PSOE doing well in the Senate election at least even if PP+C+VOX majority seems likely in the Lower House.

In theory not necesarily, Sanchez could legally call an election only for Congress.

In practice, it would certainly be for both, there is no reason to separate them.

And yes I also could see PSOE doing well in the Senate. Worth noting that article 155 (direct rule) is paseed by the Senate and not Congress so theoretically PSOE coule block it if PP/Cs/Vox attempt to pass it

 So no plans to consolidate the vote with European elections in May?

It's unclear, another possible date is the 26th of May alongside the EU (and local) elections.

However most of the PSOE leadership don't want this in order not to contaminate their local campaigns with national issues

Edit: Blatantly hijacking this post in the first page several months later to add a link to the previous thread: https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=205125.0


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (The Spanish Labyrinth)
Post by: Oryxslayer on February 12, 2019, 08:52:29 PM

On that subject, how do C's maintain their Catalan electorate in particular if they ally with Vox. Loads of them are ex-PSOE and/or from immigrant background. It makes little sense.

Maybe others can chime in here, but I get the feeling that the C's hierarchy of governments is:

Anything with C's leading
PP+C's
PSOE+C's
PP+C's+VOX







Anything with Podemos(or Podemos allies) or separatists

We didn't really get to see any theoretical government besides the PP+C's+VOX in Andalusia, but I suspect that was because of Mathematical reasons over anything else. With that in mind, the C's decision process post election is probably going to depend on math rather then anything else. Who will have the numbers: PSOE, or PP+VOX?

So they can sell this to their Catalan electorate by saying  "it was the mathematical option, PSOE+C's lacked majority." If PSOE+C's has a majority, then A C's red line will be a Harsh Catalan policy. This satisfies both sides of their Catalan coalition - the hard Spanish nats and the former PSOEs. If not, then they can say "PSOE won't do whats right for Spain and Catalonia, so we went with PP+VOX."


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (The Spanish Labyrinth)
Post by: Velasco on February 13, 2019, 06:14:42 AM
The government is headed for defeat in Congress over 2019 budget

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/02/13/inenglish/1550045962_704191.html

Quote
The government of Pedro Sánchez has resigned itself to the fact that its 2019 budget has scant chance of being approved in Congress, a situation that will most likely lead to the Socialist Party (PSOE) prime minister having to call a snap election. During an eight-hour debate in Congress on Tuesday, one that continued on Wednesday morning, the government made a last-bid attempt to convince other parties to back the plan, but the opposition of pro-Catalan independence parties is likely to lead to defeat (...)

In Congress yesterday, the Spanish finance minister, María Jesús Montero, defended the budget plan on strictly social-economic terms, arguing that they include more investment for the northeastern region of Catalonia, and an improvement in the quality of life of citizens in general. If the pro-independence parties reject the 2019 public accounts, she warned, they would damage “Catalans in particular, and all Spaniards in general.”

The finance minister performed well yesterday against the right wing opposition and the Catalan separatists. Talking in socio-economic terms, the budget includes a rise in the minimum wage to 900 Euros and more investment in Catalonia (the region has a deficit in transport infrastructure, among other things). Also, strategic reasons would have made advisable that Catalan nationalists support the budget plan. However, they are at odds with strategy.

The trial left a meaningful picture showing the division within the independence movement.
()

Catalan premier Quim Torra greets the defendants. Most of them turn their heads, except ERC leader Oriol Junqueras and former regional ministers Santi Vila (formerly PDeCAT) and Carles Mundó (ERC). The expression of Junqueras (down right in the picture) and Vila (in front of the woman in red) is very eloquent.

The political debate is totally focused in Catalonia. The national and the international context favour the Triple Alliance.

Celeste-Tel poll for eldiario.es

https://www.eldiario.es/politica/constante-Vox-mantiene-derechas-opciones_0_867213569.html

PSOE 23.7%
PP 23.1%
Cs 19.2%
UP and allies 15.8%
VOX 8.9%
ERC 2.8%
PDeCAT 1.7%
EAJ-PNV 1.2%

Correlation similar to Andalusia. Right wing majority (PP, Cs and VOX). I'd bet that VOX is a couple of percentage points higher at the expense of PP.
 



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (The Spanish Labyrinth)
Post by: jaichind on February 13, 2019, 07:00:13 AM
Spanish Parliament Blocks 2019 Budget Bill


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (The Spanish Labyrinth)
Post by: Velasco on February 13, 2019, 07:01:49 AM
 So no plans to consolidate the vote with European elections in May?

That might be the target after all if Rivera finds his marbles and blocks the tripartite Right coalition.

On that subject, how do C's maintain their Catalan electorate in particular if they ally with Vox. Loads of them are ex-PSOE and/or from immigrant background. It makes little sense.

This question has no easy answer, because vote dynamics in Catalonia are extremely complex. The electoral behaviour of the non-nationalist half of Catalonia is particularly volatile. The Catalan electorate votes in different ways, depending on the type of election. Cs performed very strongly in the 2015 and 2017 regional elections, getting 17.9% and 25.3% of the vote (second and first place, respectively). However, the Cs performance in the 2015 and 2016 general elections was somewhat disappointing: 13% in 2015 (5th place) and 10.9% in 2016 (6th). The leading coalition in both general elections was En Comú Podem. Most of the ECP support came from the metropolitan strongholds traditionally voting for the socialists, but it's very likely that ECP caught some nationalist vote as well. Most of the Cs support in regional elections came from the same metropolitan municipalities, as well it caught many PP voters (Cs performance in some affluent neighbourhoods in Barcelona was quite impressive). On the other hand, the VOX rise might hurt Cs to some extent. Catalonia is not the best place for VOX on paper, but I heard there are some polls saying that VOX might step into the city hall winning some councilors in Barcelona...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (The Spanish Labyrinth)
Post by: Skye on February 14, 2019, 02:21:01 PM


That's tomorrow. I'm excited.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (The Spanish Labyrinth)
Post by: Velasco on February 14, 2019, 04:10:49 PM
Everybody is saying that elections will be on April 28.

Pedro Sánchez will make an announcement tomorrow morning (10:00 CET)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (The Spanish Labyrinth)
Post by: jaichind on February 14, 2019, 04:24:09 PM
I assume the argument for April 28 elections vs in May is to force C to show its hand.  If C ends up backing a government in alliance with VOX that could drive some C-PSOE marginal voters to swing over to PSOE.  To have the the elections the same time as EU and local elections will not give PSOE this possible advantage in local elections.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (The Spanish Labyrinth)
Post by: Velasco on February 14, 2019, 05:02:14 PM
I assume the argument for April 28 elections vs in May is to force C to show its hand.  If C ends up backing a government in alliance with VOX that could drive some C-PSOE marginal voters to swing over to PSOE.  To have the the elections the same time as EU and local elections will not give PSOE this possible advantage in local elections.

A Cs spokesman has said already that deals with Pedro Sánchez are not on the table.  Oranges claim that Sánchez is a radical who has betrayed the country. It's the same mantra of Casado: Sánchez is sold to populists, separatists and friends of ETA. It's a complete nonsense, but right wing voters buy this message. Moderate and centrist voters could be different. It's clear that PP, Cs and VOX will arrange a government deal if they have the numbers. The socialists will try to exploit the picture of Casado (PP),  Rivera (Cs) and Abascal (VOX) together in the Colón square past Sunday. That's what I call the (reactionary) Triple Alliance. Once the government broke talks with separatists, socialists hope to mobilize voters contrary or reluctant over talks policy as well as moderate voters fearful of the VOX radicalism.

Anyway I think it's not going to be easy to mobilize left wing voters, on the fear of the Triple Alliance, and reverse the right wing drive. The electoral behaviour of left wing voters is different from the right wing ones. They need some illusion and a strong motivation to turn out in great numbers, while the right eing voters are more practical (their aim is to preserve the status quo). Right now average polling is PSOE 24%, PP 21%, Cs 18%, UP 15%, VOX 11%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (The Spanish Labyrinth)
Post by: Oryxslayer on February 14, 2019, 09:30:13 PM
I assume the argument for April 28 elections vs in May is to force C to show its hand.  If C ends up backing a government in alliance with VOX that could drive some C-PSOE marginal voters to swing over to PSOE.  To have the the elections the same time as EU and local elections will not give PSOE this possible advantage in local elections.

A Cs spokesman has said already that deals with Pedro Sánchez are not on the table.  Oranges claim that Sánchez is a radical who has betrayed the country. It's the same mantra of Casado: Sánchez is sold to populists, separatists and friends of ETA. It's a complete nonsense, but right wing voters buy this message. Moderate and centrist voters could be different. It's clear that PP, Cs and VOX will arrange a government deal if they have the numbers. The socialists will try to exploit the picture of Casado (PP),  Rivera (Cs) and Abascal (VOX) together in the Colón square past Sunday. That's what I call the (reactionary) Triple Alliance. Once the government broke talks with separatists, socialists hope to mobilize voters contrary or reluctant over talks policy as well as moderate voters fearful of the VOX radicalism.

Anyway I think it's not going to be easy to mobilize left wing voters, on the fear of the Triple Alliance, and reverse the right wing drive. The electoral behaviour of left wing voters is different from the right wing ones. They need some illusion and a strong motivation to turn out in great numbers, while the right eing voters are more practical (their aim is to preserve the status quo). Right now average polling is PSOE 24%, PP 21%, Cs 18%, UP 15%, VOX 11%

That's politiking: C's realize that VOX is a danger to the third leg of the weird coalition of Macron-style Liberals, Classical Liberals, and Hard-Right Nationalists. I suspect they might be singing a different tune if C's and PSOE have the numbers (they don't right now) and Sanchez offers a big compromise to C's like Article 155.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (The Spanish Labyrinth)
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 15, 2019, 04:42:09 AM
https://elpais.com/politica/2019/02/15/actualidad/1550216540_890788.html

Pedri Sanchez has finally called the election for the 28th of April


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (The Spanish Labyrinth)
Post by: Velasco on February 15, 2019, 06:02:45 AM
I assume the argument for April 28 elections vs in May is to force C to show its hand.  If C ends up backing a government in alliance with VOX that could drive some C-PSOE marginal voters to swing over to PSOE.  To have the the elections the same time as EU and local elections will not give PSOE this possible advantage in local elections.

A Cs spokesman has said already that deals with Pedro Sánchez are not on the table.  Oranges claim that Sánchez is a radical who has betrayed the country. It's the same mantra of Casado: Sánchez is sold to populists, separatists and friends of ETA. It's a complete nonsense, but right wing voters buy this message. Moderate and centrist voters could be different. It's clear that PP, Cs and VOX will arrange a government deal if they have the numbers. The socialists will try to exploit the picture of Casado (PP),  Rivera (Cs) and Abascal (VOX) together in the Colón square past Sunday. That's what I call the (reactionary) Triple Alliance. Once the government broke talks with separatists, socialists hope to mobilize voters contrary or reluctant over talks policy as well as moderate voters fearful of the VOX radicalism.

Anyway I think it's not going to be easy to mobilize left wing voters, on the fear of the Triple Alliance, and reverse the right wing drive. The electoral behaviour of left wing voters is different from the right wing ones. They need some illusion and a strong motivation to turn out in great numbers, while the right eing voters are more practical (their aim is to preserve the status quo). Right now average polling is PSOE 24%, PP 21%, Cs 18%, UP 15%, VOX 11%

That's politiking: C's realize that VOX is a danger to the third leg of the weird coalition of Macron-style Liberals, Classical Liberals, and Hard-Right Nationalists. I suspect they might be singing a different tune if C's and PSOE have the numbers (they don't right now) and Sanchez offers a big compromise to C's like Article 155.

Cs secretary general José Manuel Villegas was crystal clear yesterday: they won't make deals with the PSOE until Pedro Sánchez is replaced in leadership. Also, the visions of PSOE and Cs on the Catalan crisis are radically opposed: PSOE favours dialogue without concessions on self-determination, Cs seeks the implementation of a "harsh 155" in total coincidence with the PP (VOX would send the tanks too, I suspect). It's true that certain socialist 'barons' (regional leaders) have more coincidences with Cs and PP on Catalonia (recently there was a proclamation in the Extremadura regional assembly), but they are not all the PSOE and the leader is Sánchez.  Additionally the tone of Albert Rivera has been very harsh with Pedro Sánchez since the no confidence motion. I suspect there is some personal hatred. Rivera is very ambitious (Sánchez too) and possibly he saw himself as the saviour of Spain after replacing Mariano Rajoy as PM. The bold move of Pedro Sánchez in late May disrupted his dreams of glory. On the other hand, Rivera is not Macron.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28)
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 15, 2019, 01:40:00 PM
Worth noting that today 3 "new" parties announced their intention to run alone and not in coalitions:

-New Canaries (NCa). A centre-left Canarian nationalist party. Strong in the eastern province of Las Palmas but weak in the western province of Santa Cruz de Tenerife. They contested the 2016 election alongside PSOE and got 1 senator and 1 MP. While that Senator is pretty much gone, they should be able to hold their MP, but it will be close.

-Regionalist Party of Cantabria (PRC): A centrist, progressive and somewhat populist Cantabria regionalist party, led by Premier Miguel Ángel Revilla. They rarely contest national elections but apparently this time they will. They should be able to easily get 1 seat, but nothing else.

-Actúa: : An IU splinter mostly; led by former IU leader Gaspar Llamazares and former judge Baltasar Garzón. Unlike the other 2, this one seems unlikely to get any seats but we shall see.

All 3 are very good parties in my (biased) opinion, but we shall see.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28)
Post by: Velasco on February 15, 2019, 04:17:27 PM
Pedro Sánchez calls snap election for April 28

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/02/15/inenglish/1550218263_541173.html

Quote
Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez on Friday announced a snap general election for April 28. It will be the third general election In Spain in four years. Spaniards were not due to be called to the polls again until 2020.

The decision rules out the possibility of a so-called “Super Sunday” on May 26, the day that local, regional and European elections will take place.In a speech that began at 10am following a Cabinet meeting, the Socialist Party (PSOE) leader listed his government’s achievements in these last eight-and-a-half months, including job creation and initiatives on environmental and social issues. He also warned against making choices that could lead to greater confrontation in an increasingly polarized country.

“Spain does not deserve to get stuck because of partisan interests,” said Sánchez. “Spain belongs to its citizens. It is they who must decide whether to take a step backward. We defend a country where there is room for everyone.”

ERC leader and former deputy premier Oriol Junqueras claims to be a political prisoner

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/02/14/inenglish/1550154512_860484.html

Quote
Junqueras, who is facing charges of rebellion and misuse of public funds that could entail 25 years in prison, only took questions from his defense attorney, Andreu Van den Eynde, and used his statements to craft a narrative that portrayed his own case as politically motivated.

Oriol Junqueras procalimed his love for Spain and for the Spanish peoples and culture. He also stated to be happy to speak in Spanish in the trial, because it gave him the opportunity to be heard by all Spaniards. Defendants were given the possibility to speak in Catalan, although there is no simultaneous translation and testimonies would be translated afterwards.

A key factor in the trial is to determine wether violence was employed or encouraged by independence leaders, because violence is an essential requirement to be found guilty of rebellion. The maximum penalty for rebellion is 25 years, much higher than the penalty for disobedience.

Quote
Only some of the defense lawyer’s last questions clearly alluded to what prosecutors describe as the “violent events” of September 20, 2017, when a crowd congregated outside the Catalan department of economic affairs while the authorities carried out a search inside for referendum material. Civil Guard patrol cars were vandalized and officers were trapped inside the building. The prosecution also considers there to have been acts of violence against police officers on October 1. Junqueras countered by saying it was the police who used violence against voters.

Joaquim Forn took the stand afterwards. Forn was the member of the Catalan government in charge of regional police (the equivalent of the Interior minister). He took questions from the public prosecutor and provided documentation showing the orders he gave to the Mossos de Esquadra (regional police) on October 1, 2017 (the date of the informal referendum). I'd say this strategy of defence was more effective than the previous political speech of Junqueras. The presiding judge Manuel Marchena rebuked th prosecutor's insistence to repeat the same questions to Joaquim Forn, in order to get the desired answer. Furthermore, judge Marchena didn't allow the Vox lawyers who reoresent the private prosecution to make their questions, once the defendants refused to take them. Marchena is regarded as a conservative leaning judge, as well as a smart one. Marchena is showing very scrupulous with procedural guarantees, because he is fully aware this trial is getting a lot of attention worldwide. Also, the defences have stated the will appeal before the Strasbourg Court in case their defendants are not acquitted of all charges. It is very important for the court to ensure the due process guarantees.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28)
Post by: Velasco on February 15, 2019, 04:49:17 PM
Worth noting that today 3 "new" parties announced their intention to run alone and not in coalitions:

-New Canaries (NCa). A centre-left Canarian nationalist party. Strong in the eastern province of Las Palmas but weak in the western province of Santa Cruz de Tenerife. They contested the 2016 election alongside PSOE and got 1 senator and 1 MP. While that Senator is pretty much gone, they should be able to hold their MP, but it will be close.

-Regionalist Party of Cantabria (PRC): A centrist, progressive and somewhat populist Cantabria regionalist party, led by Premier Miguel Ángel Revilla. They rarely contest national elections but apparently this time they will. They should be able to easily get 1 seat, but nothing else.

-Actúa: : An IU splinter mostly; led by former IU leader Gaspar Llamazares and former judge Baltasar Garzón. Unlike the other 2, this one seems unlikely to get any seats but we shall see.

All 3 are very good parties in my (biased) opinion, but we shall see.

Sorry, but I don't think that New Canaries or the Cantabria regionalists have many chances of winning seats. These parties perform much better in regional elections.

PRC ran unsuccessfully in the 2011 general elections, getting 12.5% (around 44k votes). That time the Cantabria Regionalist Party came close, but this time there is a lot of competence. PP, PSOE, Cs, Podemos and Vox will be running too and the province only has 5 seats.

The results of NC in Las Palmas province, either running in its own or in a joint list with the Canary Coalition (CC), have been rather poor in previous elections. NC (in coalition with CCN) got 7.5% in 2008 and no seats, while the NC-CC-PNC joint list got 11.3% in 2011 and 1 seat. Unless NC runs with CC again, the chances are slim because regionalist vote will be splitted.

I concur the electoral chances of Actúa are virtually zero. The party of Gaspar Llamazares and Baltasar Garzón was rejected by Más Madrid at regional level. The platform led by Íñigo Errejón seeks to ally with Podemos, IU and Equo. Llamazares has been always hostile to Podemos and he is a figure of the past, with little electoral appeal outside his Asturias home turf.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28)
Post by: Velasco on February 16, 2019, 05:43:30 AM
Despite the great fragmentation of the electoral space, Spain faces the next election confronted to a binary choice: the Left or the Triple Alliance. The crisis in Podemos and the breaking of the alliance with the Catalan nationalists have weakened the block led by Pedro Sánchez, despite the PSOE is leading in the polls. On the opposite side, the triple alliance (PP, Cs and VOX) has many chances of winning a majority according to the polls. Cs leader Albert Rivera rejects categorically an alliance with Pedro Sánchez (he says the PSOE is not constitutionalist, while remains in silence when asked about Vox) and deliberately opts for the right wing alliance that governs in Andalusia with the support of the far right. Pedro Sánchez started campaigning yesterday placing himself in front of the right wing alliance of Colón Square. In the picture below you can spot Santiago Abascal (Vox), Pablo Casado (PP) and Albert Rivera (Cs)

()  

NYT: "Yet Another Election for Spain Reveals Deeper Strains"

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/15/world/europe/spain-snap-election.html

Quote
A center-left government has fallen. The two-party system has collapsed. The far-right is on the rise. At first glance, Spain seems a lot like other parts of Europe these days. And it is.

But the decision on Friday by Spain’s Socialist prime minister, Pedro Sánchez, to call for an early general election in April — the country’s third since late 2015 — is also an echo of deeper, particularly Spanish dynamics at play.

A secessionist drive in the prosperous northern region of Catalonia has challenged both the country’s territorial integrity and the core arrangements of the 1978 Constitution for Spain, one of Western Europe’s youngest democracies.

The result is the rise of a new nationalism across Spain, which in many ways has yet to fully reconcile the divisions left by the darkest chapters of its recent past, including dictatorship and civil war (...)

Evolution of the vote since the 1977 elections

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28)
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 16, 2019, 07:05:04 AM
Worth noting that today 3 "new" parties announced their intention to run alone and not in coalitions:


Sorry, but I don't think that New Canaries or the Cantabria regionalists have many chances of winning seats. These parties perform much better in regional elections.

PRC ran unsuccessfully in the 2011 general elections, getting 12.5% (around 44k votes). That time the Cantabria Regionalist Party came close, but this time there is a lot of competence. PP, PSOE, Cs, Podemos and Vox will be running too and the province only has 5 seats.

The results of NC in Las Palmas province, either running in its own or in a joint list with the Canary Coalition (CC), have been rather poor in previous elections. NC (in coalition with CCN) got 7.5% in 2008 and no seats, while the NC-CC-PNC joint list got 11.3% in 2011 and 1 seat. Unless NC runs with CC again, the chances are slim because regionalist vote will be splitted.

I concur the electoral chances of Actúa are virtually zero. The party of Gaspar Llamazares and Baltasar Garzón was rejected by Más Madrid at regional level. The platform led by Íñigo Errejón seeks to ally with Podemos, IU and Equo. Llamazares has been always hostile to Podemos and he is a figure of the past, with little electoral appeal outside his Asturias home turf.

I'm a lot more optimistic about those 2.

Because of how D'Hondt works, PRC would need to come in 5th at worst, and get more than half of what the 1st place finisher gets. That's probably somewhere around 13-15% (depending on how much you think PP will fall), which doesn't seem unreachable to me. Revilla is popular and he has a legit shot. His seat would probably come off Podemos' seat. (1-1-1-1-1 split)

Similarly, NC managed to get 7% in 2008; back when they were a lot less popular (at the time they didn't even have regional representation, falling below the threshold in the 2007 regionals!).

I could see NC getting 10% and 1 seat. Pedro Quevedo has also been a high profile MP for the most part. CC is small enough to ignore; they got 3% and I imagine at least a handful of those might move to NC if they have a chance (while CC doesn't).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28)
Post by: Velasco on February 16, 2019, 02:28:49 PM
GESOP / El Periódico de Catalunya

PSOE 27.4% 115-117 seats
PP 19.9% 75-77 seats
CS 14.5% 44-47 seats
UP 13.6% 36-39 seats
VOX 13% 43-46 seats

ERC 16-17 seats
PDeCAT 2-3 seats
Others 8-10 seats


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28)
Post by: BigSerg on February 16, 2019, 03:15:20 PM
GESOP / El Periódico de Catalunya

PSOE 27.4% 115-117 seats
PP 19.9% 75-77 seats
CS 14.5% 44-47 seats
UP 13.6% 36-39 seats
VOX 13% 43-46 seats

ERC 16-17 seats
PDeCAT 2-3 seats
Others 8-10 seats

lol cs 14.5% that poll is manipulated


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 16, 2019, 03:19:18 PM
There was another poll today which seems to be a lot more reasonable than the GESOP one

GAD3 for La Vanguardia

()

There will probably be a third one published, this time by Sociométrica-El Español


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on February 16, 2019, 04:17:11 PM
There was another poll today which seems to be a lot more reasonable than the GESOP one

GAD3 for La Vanguardia

()

There will probably be a third one published, this time by Sociométrica-El Español

Interesting how C's+PSOE has a majority here, but the Right wing Triumvirate doesn't despite having a higher combined vote-share then C's+PSOE. This basis appears to be built on VOX a horrible vote/seat ratio, worse then even C's during their peak last winter. I guess we really have no idea how the VOX vote will be distributed in this regard, with the obvious exception being high voteshares in the exclaves.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on February 16, 2019, 04:50:14 PM
I don't think the GESOP poll is unreasonable. It's assuming that VOX is eroding the PP and the Cs base in a greater extent than the GAD3 poll does. Given that VOX is setting the agenda of the other two right wing parties, it's plausible. It's worth noting that GESOP predicts the ERC hegemony in the Catalan nationalism, at the expense of the total collapse of the PDeCAT. I think both pollsters are interpreting vote transfers within blocks (left, triunvirate and separatists) in a different way.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on February 16, 2019, 07:07:11 PM

Interesting how C's+PSOE has a majority here, but the Right wing Triumvirate doesn't despite having a higher combined vote-share then C's+PSOE. This basis appears to be built on VOX a horrible vote/seat ratio, worse then even C's during their peak last winter. I guess we really have no idea how the VOX vote will be distributed in this regard, with the obvious exception being high voteshares in the exclavI thies.

The seat allocation is not easy to estimate, but there are models that provide an approximate result. It's important to remark the seat allocation is not based on nationwide results, rather it's based on the addition of the results in the 52 districts (50 multi-member corresponding to provinces; 2 single-member corresponding to autonomous cities). We actually have 52 general elections in Spain (one for every district, in Congress and Senate).

I think these polls show that there's a little ray of light for Pedro Sánchez, thanks to the particular nature of our electoral system. Most of the provincial electoral districts have less than seven seats. The parties placed first and second have a bonus in seat allocation, while third parties below 15% have a bad vote/seat ratio. In case the PSOE manages to come in first place with a result not far from 30% and 120 seats, I think it's pissible to avert a majority for the Triple Alliance. We have the precedent of the 2015 elections, with the PP coming first (28.7%, 123 seats) and the left wing parties winning less seats than PP and Cs, despite their higher combined vote share.

The majority suppprting the no confidence motion against Rajoy could not be replicated, according to the last poll. However, it'd be interesting to see how Albert Rivera would act in a scenario in which PSOE and Cs have the numbers and the Holy Trinity falls short of a majority, given that he and other Cs spokepersons say they'll never support the 'traitor' Sánchez.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on February 16, 2019, 07:25:16 PM
Oh I understand how seats are allocated in Spain, that's why I mentioned the awful Vote/seat ratio, and compared it to C's's surgee. Back then, C's wasn't polling a full 'slate' of seats on it's vote/seat ratio - the surge votes were coming more from strongholds rather then evenly dispersed.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on February 17, 2019, 11:27:33 AM
Pedro Sánchez is already in campaign mode. He called to mobilization in a crowded act taking place this morning in Mérida, alongside with the Extremadura premier Guillermo Fernández Vara. The PSOE leader appealed to progressives and centrists. "The threat exists, we are seeing it in Europe and other parts of the world" said Sánchez in reference to the far right rise in Europe and the Bolsonaro takeover in Brazil. Other messages conveyed by Sánchez: conquering the future instead of going backwards; moderation, progress, common sense and dialogue against the aggressive nationalism of the Spanish Right* and the demands of the Catalan separatists. Yesterday Pedro Sánchez attended a campaign act in Seville, alongside with Susana Díaz. He focused on employment and social advancements.

* There is a testosterone overload that affects the leaders of the "triphallic right", according to Justice minister Dolores Delgado. She meant that the Spanish Right has three heads ("Tricéfala"), but her lapsus has provoked some jokes ;D

 In the cabinet meeting held on Friday the government finally approved the exhumation of the Franco's remains:

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/02/15/inenglish/1550228747_208145.html

Quote
he Spanish government is planning on approving an agreement at a Cabinet meeting on Friday that would give the final green light for the exhumation of the body of dictator Francisco Franco from the controversial Valley of the Fallen monument, located northwest of Madrid. The agreement outlines that the government has the “legal mandate” to remove the dictator’s tomb from a place of worship. Once approved, the Franco family will have 15 days to choose an alternative resting place for the dictator.

The following piece explains which policies will have to be shelved as a general election is called

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/02/15/inenglish/1550228667_985380.html

Quote
he rejection of Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez’s 2019 budget plan has forced his Socialist Party (PSOE) government to call a general election for April 28. Eight-and-a-half months after he took power, thanks to a motion of no confidence, Sánchez is bringing an end to the shortest mandate since Spain returned to democracy in the late 1970s.

What began in June of last year as an ambitious project, with
a Cabinet where women were in the majority, has not been able to survive governing in a minority, given the conditions that the parties that support Catalan independence imposed on the prime minister in return for keeping him in power.

A large number of projects will now fall by the wayside. The intention of Sánchez’s government was, right from the start, to see out the legislature until 2020, and he announced a raft of policies and measures that he intended to pass through Congress in the coming months. Now they will be put on standby, ahead of the result of the elections. Here are some of those key policies (...)

Also, Pedro Sánchez released his "Survival Manual". He reveals some details on how the no confidence motion was forged. This is another campaign act, of course.

[/center]()

The political correspondent of El País Carlos E Cué wrote a good story back in the day

https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/06/04/inenglish/1528097589_351691.html

Quote
The worst week in the long political life of Mariano Rajoy began with a party. It was a Wednesday; the skies over Madrid were dark, presaging a storm, and the Spanish prime minister was tired but elated. At the eleventh hour, faithful to his resist-to-the-end style, he had managed to push through the budget plan with support from Ciudadanos and the Basque Nationalist Party (PNV) (...)



 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Mike88 on February 17, 2019, 12:24:40 PM
Hmm... It seems that there's some kind of trend towards PSOE and PP. PSOE numbers are going up because, probably, of the implosion of Podemos and PP seems to be gaining some voters from C's. Sociométrica poll is the only, of the 3 released yesterday, that shows PP and C's tied for second place.

Could that photo of Rivera next to Abascal be hurting C's? Maybe some C's moderate voters didn't liked what they saw and are now returning to PP, and some, who knows, to PSOE.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on February 17, 2019, 01:17:15 PM
Hmm... It seems that there's some kind of trend towards PSOE and PP. PSOE numbers are going up because, probably, of the implosion of Podemos and PP seems to be gaining some voters from C's. Sociométrica poll is the only, of the 3 released yesterday, that shows PP and C's tied for second place.

Could that photo of Rivera next to Abascal be hurting C's? Maybe some C's moderate voters didn't liked what they saw and are now returning to PP, and some, who knows, to PSOE.

There is an extreme volatility with sudden turns in public opinion, so we should be cautious with analyses and intetpretations. I think the only prediction that we can support right now is that PSOE, Cs and of course VOX will get better results, while PP and UP are bound to lose support. In the case of Cs, I think the picture in Colon Square and the government deal in Andalusia, which undeniably associate the oranges with the far right, are potentially harmful. At least the PSOE will try to take advantage of these developments to recover ground in the centre. The talks policy damaged PSOE in previous months (additionally the crisis in Catalonia exacerbates division within the party), as well the bad communication policy: the Calvo's blunder with the "mediator" was the origin of the political storm that ended in the Colon Square rally, a failed sttempt of the Spanish Right to bring Sánchez down with a massive demonstration. The attendance was around 50k, a clear underperformance. In addition the picture of the Triple Alliance gives ammunition to the PSOE. Some people say the failure of the Colon Square rally and that picture determined Pedro Sánchez and his inner circle to call elections in April. I think your assumption that moderate Cs voters may turn to PP over that picture doesn't make much sense, because Pablo Cssado is a hardcore conservative with stances close to VOX. The Santiago Abascal party was the only winner in Colón Square. On the ither hand, VOX is growing mainly at the expense of PP but also at the expense of Cs. The result of VOX within the rightwing block may determine if the Triple Alliance wins a majority or not


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Mike88 on February 17, 2019, 02:28:19 PM
Hmm... It seems that there's some kind of trend towards PSOE and PP. PSOE numbers are going up because, probably, of the implosion of Podemos and PP seems to be gaining some voters from C's. Sociométrica poll is the only, of the 3 released yesterday, that shows PP and C's tied for second place.

Could that photo of Rivera next to Abascal be hurting C's? Maybe some C's moderate voters didn't liked what they saw and are now returning to PP, and some, who knows, to PSOE.

There is an extreme volatility with sudden turns in public opinion, so we should be cautious with analyses and intetpretations. I think the only prediction that we can support right now is that PSOE, Cs and of course VOX eill get better results, while PP and UP are bound to lose support. In the case of Cs, I think that the picture in Colon Square and the government deal in Andalusia, which undeniably associate the oranges with the far right, are potentially harmful. At least the PSOE will try to take advantage of these develooments to recover ground in the centre. The talks policy damaged PSOE in previous months (additionally the crisis in Catalonia exacerbates division within the party), as well the bad cpmmunication policy: the Calvo's blunder with the "mediator" was the origin of the political storm that ended in the Colon Square rally, a failed sttempt of the Spanish Right to bring Sánchez down with a massive demonstration. The attendance was around 50k, a clear underperformance. In addition the picture of the Triple Alliance gives ammunition to the PSOE. Some people say the failure of the Colon Square rally and that picture determined Pedro Sánchez and his inner circle to call elections in April. I think your assumption that moderate Cs voters may turn to PP over that picture doesn't make much sense, because Pablo Cssado is a hardcore consrrvative with stances close to VOX. The Santiago Abascal party was the only winner in Colón Square. On the ither hand, VOX is growing mainly at the expense of PP but also at the expense of Cs. The result of VOX within the right wing block may determine if the Triple Alliance wins a majority or not
Interesting. When i say moderate C's voters coming back to PP, I mean former PP voters that were a bit turned off by the corruption scandals and all, and now are coming back to PP because C's seems to be just like PP. But, you're right, that maybe doesn't makes sense.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on February 17, 2019, 06:00:18 PM
Interesting chronicle of the NYT correspondent Raphael Minder from El Ejido, the Andalusian stronghold of VOX. Minder is the author of a book entitled 'The Struggle for Catalonia'

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/16/world/europe/spain-elections-vox-far-right.html?rref=collection%2Ftimestopic%2FSpain&action=click&contentCollection=world&region=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=collection

Quote
Wedged between the mountains and the Mediterranean Sea, the Almería province of southern Spain was once a setting for the spaghetti westerns that turned Clint Eastwood into a star.

These days, shimmering miles of plastic greenhouses stretch to the horizon, incubating the tomatoes, peppers and other produce that have transformed this once impoverished region into a farming hub.

But the most important seed growing here along Spain’s southern coast may be that of Vox, Spain’s first far-right party since the end of the Franco dictatorship in 1975 (...)

PP, Cs and VOX seek to differentiate their offer in order to catch all the vote right of the centre, says a chronicle in El País. The parties of the Triple Alliance have a total coincidence in what regards the implementation of direct rule in Catalonia (VOX goes further, advocating the suppression of all regional autonomy). Other headlines: "Casado whips out fear of chaos if the PP doesn't win". "Rivera encourages to bury the Two Spains (the "reds" and the "blues")". There's another article talking about the strategies to escape (or not) from the Colón Square picture. The Spanish Right seeks to transform that picture in government deals, while the Left seeks to use it to mobilize voters.

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/02/16/actualidad/1550342351_459051.html

Another interesting headline in El Confidencial, a centre-right leaning digital paper: "Spain has no room to implement a great tax cut". Is this a message for the triumvirate (particularly for Pablo Casado)?

https://www.elconfidencial.com/economia/2019-02-17/casado-promesa-bajada-impuestos-margen_1830074/

eldiario.es: "Podemos seeks to renew its alliances in the middle of a serious crisis to become a party of government"

https://www.eldiario.es/politica/Podemos-IU-aliados_0_868263923.html

Meanwhile Manuela Carmena and Íñigo Errejón launched their campaign in Madrid: the act was a big breakfast (handmade fairy cakes and chocolate) with 2000 supporters in a working class neighbourhood called Villaverde

https://www.eldiario.es/madrid/Carmena-Errejon-arrancan-campana-conjunta_0_868613262.html

The Minister of Public Works José Luis Ábalos was insulted by a semiretired policeman yesterday night in Mérida (Extremadura). The offender called "Rojo" ("Red") to Ábalos, so presumably the ideology of that man is "Blue" (or maybe "Vox Green").

https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2019/02/17/5c69900321efa0be238b4662.html





Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: rob in cal on February 17, 2019, 07:27:51 PM
  So what is the vote % crossover point for a party running throughout the country like Vox to win a seat share approximate to its vote share. Looks like right now its 8.8% in the last poll gets it about 4.5 % of the seats. This wastage alone might be enough to deny the PP, C, and Vox a majority.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 17, 2019, 07:59:44 PM
  So what is the vote % crossover point for a party running throughout the country like Vox to win a seat share approximate to its vote share. Looks like right now its 8.8% in the last poll gets it about 4.5 % of the seats. This wastage alone might be enough to deny the PP, C, and Vox a majority.

Well, no one really knows, but the more the better. (Try to think of Spain's seat to vote ratio as exponential instead of linear)

Keep in mind that the vote-seats ratio is not only dependant on the party's results, but also in the results of everyone else.

A good example is that PSOE got 175 seats (exactly half) in 1989 with only 39.6% of the popular vote.

Meanwhile in 2008 PSOE got only 169 seats with 43.7% of the vote.

The reason for this is that in 1989 the opposition was quite divided, with the 2nd largest party being PP with 25.8% of the vote. Meanwhile in 2008 the opposition was also unified with PP getting 39.9% of the vote.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on February 17, 2019, 08:27:43 PM
  So what is the vote % crossover point for a party running throughout the country like Vox to win a seat share approximate to its vote share. Looks like right now its 8.8% in the last poll gets it about 4.5 % of the seats. This wastage alone might be enough to deny the PP, C, and Vox a majority.

Well, no one really knows, but the more the better. (Try to think of Spain's seat to vote ratio as exponential instead of linear)

Keep in mind that the vote-seats ratio is not only dependant on the party's results, but also in the results of everyone else.

A good example is that PSOE got 175 seats (exactly half) in 1989 with only 39.6% of the popular vote.

Meanwhile in 2008 PSOE got only 169 seats with 43.7% of the vote.

The reason for this is that in 1989 the opposition was quite divided, with the 2nd largest party being PP with 25.8% of the vote. Meanwhile in 2008 the opposition was also unified with PP getting 39.9% of the vote.



Which is one of PSOE's strengths right now - they are polling in the High 20s whereas everyone else is between 10 and low 20s. So there are going to be quite a few PSOE 'bonus' seats thanks to their nationwide appeal and lead on the pack. The previous La Vanguardia poll for example has them getting between 15 and 20 seats above the pure proportional result.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on February 17, 2019, 08:39:39 PM
The threshold to have a good vote/seat ratio is estimated at 15%, but the increasing fragmentation makes it unclear. Also, the ratio may depend on which provinces a said party is stronger, given that seat allocation by province favours the less populated (the "empty Spain"). That's why some polls predict that PP could win more seats than Cs with a similar vote share. PP performs strongly in rural Spain and among the eldest, while it performs poorly among the youngest voters. Another feature of the system is that nationalist and regionalist parties use to have a better ratio than third parties nationwide, because peripheral parties have their vote concentrated in a few provinces.

2016 General Election (vote share/ % of seats)

PP (33% /39,1%), PSOE (22.6%/24.3%), UP (21.2%/20.3%), Cs (13.1%/9.1%)

ERC (2.6%/2.6%), CDC (2%/2.3%), EAJ-PNV (1.2%/1.4%), EH Bildu (0.8%/0.6%), CC (0.3%/0.3%)

Kiko Llaneras made an estimation for El País on the Vox effect over the rightwing seats, assuming the combined vote of the Triple Alliance is at 49% (percentage may oscillate depending on the mobilization of the left). It seems the rightwing majority is assured with Vox getting more than 11%. I'd take it with a grain of salt, because there are multiple variables. Mobilization is key

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/02/16/actualidad/1550336107_552865.html?rel=lom


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on February 18, 2019, 10:55:19 AM
Cs political bureau agrees unanimously not making deals with Pedro Sánchez and the PSOE after the general elections. By the moment this decision doesn't affect deals at regional and local level. Cs secretary general José Manuel Vilegas said that talking and making agreements with the separatists (the "coup plotters" in the vision of the Spanish Right) is one of the most serious and deplorable actions ever performed by a Spanish government. Cs leader Albert Rivera stated past Friday that Pedro Sánchez and the PSOE must go to the opposition. Rivera seeks the repetition of the coalition agreements in Andalusia, with the difference that he hopes to lead the government himself. Cs would be a "modern" and "liberal" alternative in Rivera's words, while the PP represents a "conservative" one somewhat tarnished by corruption. Rivera has no opinion of Vox, because that party has no seats in the Spanish parliament.

Loyal to his hyperbolic rhetoric style, PP leader Pablo Casado compares the current political situation of Spain with the situation after the death of Franco. Casado assures that separatists are ready to launch a second assault to the Spain's integrity with the PSOE's collusion.

The Vox campaign in Madrid targets low income municipalities with high proportion of immigrant population, which usually lean to the left

https://elpais.com/ccaa/2019/02/17/madrid/1550425964_576994.html

The GAD3 poll released by La Vanguardia provides a little ray of light. According to it, a majority of Spaniards favours dialogue as the way to solve the conflict in Catalonia. Talks between central and regional governments are supported by 52.3%, while 34.2% supports the implementation of direct rule in Catalonia (article 155). A poll conducted by GAD3 three months ago showed opposite results. The turn in public opinion is attributed either to the dragging effect of the government's discourse or to a reaction against inflated rhetoric and overacting.

https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20190217/46528947189/la-mayoria-de-los-espanoles-elige-el-dialogo-para-resolver-la-crisis-catalana.html

 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Skye on February 19, 2019, 01:16:56 PM
()

So, there's this poll. The left is getting trounced in Madrid, though that's not really new anyway.

I was meaning to ask, what are the best pollsters in Spain? What pollsters should I turn a blind eye to?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 19, 2019, 01:51:27 PM

I was meaning to ask, what are the best pollsters in Spain? What pollsters should I turn a blind eye to?

Best pollsters (or at least the most accurate thus far) seems to have been GAD3, which has also been consistently good.

Worst pollster by far is CIS. It barely counts as a poll at this point. If Sánchez loses the election, then it might become good again as it's owned by the government. Traditionally it wasn't the most accurate pollster but the methodology and information provided was really good.

Of the private pollsters, the worst seems to be Metroscopia


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on February 20, 2019, 05:22:47 AM
Vox takes its anti-immigration message to Madrid

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/02/18/inenglish/1550506982_047374.html

Quote
x, a Spanish far-right party that recently gained parliamentary representation in the southern region of Andalusia, is trying to extend its successful strategy ahead of local, regional and national elections due to be held in the spring.

After securing 12 seats in Andalusia on December 2 on a pro-Spanish unity and anti-immigration message, Vox got an early start on its campaign for regional and municipal elections in Madrid with a Sunday rally in Torrejón de Ardoz.

The choice of venue was not casual: a hotel located a five-minute drive from one of the Madrid region’s most diverse neighborhoods, San José, where halal butcher shops share sidewalk space with Senegalese hairdresser salons and Ukrainian supermarkets (...)

Brussels fears Spain becomes in the new Italy

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/02/18/inenglish/1550477002_732280.html?rel=mas

Quote
The European Union, just like the markets, is ruling out a financial or budget meltdown as a result of the snap election announced in Spain for April 28. But Brussels is afraid that the euro zone’s fourth-largest economy could be affected by the same kind of political instability seen for years in Italy, which is currently led by a populist and euro-skeptic government.

The risk of seeing Spain follow in Italy’s footsteps is creating apprehension among EU institutions, which view Spain as one of the few member states that supports European integration and remains free of extremist parties (,,,)

Cs decision to rule out deals with socialists has been received with some skepticism, because many people remember Albert Rivera promising that he'd never support Mariano Rajoy before the 2016 elections. There is a tough competition between the three rightwing parties, with Pablo Casado and the PP engaged in an absurd rhetoric radicalism (part ideological conviction, part fear of Vox) and the oranges not wanting to get left behind (some voters switching from PP to Cs might be tempted to vote for Vox). Also, the tactical turn to the right is motivated by the desire of Albert Rivera to become the next PM by leading the rightwing block. Rivera is not particularly good at strategy, on the other hand. Depending on election results, it might be some pressure for a PSOE-Cs agreement that provides stability to the Spanish government. However, the differences over the crisis management in Catalonia (talks policy Vs article 155) and the tough rhetoric of Albert Rivera make an agreement very difficult. We'll have to wait after the elections to see what happens.


So, there's this poll. The left is getting trounced in Madrid, though that's not really new anyway.

This is not a proper poll. Rather it's an extrapolation to the province of Madrid of a nationwide poll. No doubt that Madrid is a right leaning province, but I think the PSOE will get better results in the general elections.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 20, 2019, 06:44:56 PM
Apparently El Periódico de Cataluña published a poll about whether the Catalan issue should be solved with talks or with another round of article 155 (direct rule).

This wouldn't be noteworthy if it wasn't because they took crosstabs for several regions of Spain. The results are here:

()

Quite surprising to say the least. First of all, I'm surprised talks aren't just winning, but that they are winning handily. Brute force was a lot more popular a couple months ago.

Either way looking at the crosstabs obviously the Basques and Catalans are almost unanimously opposed. Galicia is also quite opposed.

Beyond that there aren't many significant differences elsewhere.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on February 20, 2019, 09:45:36 PM
Giles Tremlett reviews the Podemos crisis in The Guardian, What went wrong?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/19/podemos-spanish-politics

Quote
It was only five years ago that Spain’s break-out party Podemos became a dazzling new lodestar for Europe’s lost and troubled left. But with a snap election just weeks away, it now risks a crash as spectacular as its rise. Has the leftwing populist model of ponytailed rebel Pablo Iglesias and his gang of talented young thinkers, so admired by many Jeremy Corbyn backers and others around Europe, proved a failure?

Polling suggests the party is in deep trouble. Podemos once led the polls and very nearly snatched leadership of Spain’s left from prime minister Pedro Sánchez’s Socialist party at the 2016 elections, but it is now only the voters’ fourth favourite party. The meltdown means it is slated to lose half its deputies, while Sánchez gallops ahead, taking well over twice as many votes as Podemos on 28 April.

The far-right populist party Vox is now also snapping at its heels, adding ideological insult to electoral injury. In April, Vox will target the same working-class city neighbourhoods as Podemos – claiming that immigrants and Catalan separatists, not austerity, are the problem. Mainstream parties will undoubtedly argue that this is merely one populism replacing another. That misses the point (...)

There is the Errejón factor. The differences between him and Pablo Iglesias went beyond alliance policy and strategy. They had a long time friendship which was underminded and broken by politics. Errejón is regarded by many as the most talented of the Podemos founders

Quote
Errejón was also a key theorist in a party that pledged to break moulds and shed the shackles that had kept the reforming left out of power. He was the most forthright proponent of a philosophy of popular “transversal” coalitions that knitted together a wide variety of groups opposed to the status quo in one of Europe’s most corrupt and unequal societies. This allowed Podemos to channel the rage of the spontaneous indignado protests, which had occupied city squares in 2011. It also prevented it repeating the doomed coalitions routinely put together under the dead hand of Spain’s communist party. Everybody was welcome, the message became, under Podemos’s bright, purple-coloured umbrella.

Another interesting angle is the relationship between the Podemos leadership and the mayors of Madrid and Barcelona: Manuela Carmena and Ada Colau

Quote
Both mayors have performed remarkably well as they seek to make cities more liveable, rather than merely richer. Carmena has even pulled off the apparently impossible trick of reducing the debt inherited from big-spending rightwing mayors without instituting austerity. Charges that the new left is radical, dangerous and irresponsible now ring hollow.

Neither mayor allows herself to be bossed by Podemos, a party that is only half-joking when it repeatedly references the power battles waged in Game of Thrones. Colau remains on friendly terms, but the relationship with Carmena has soured as Podemos has shed allies,

There are problems in the relationship between Podemos and the regional allies

Quote
Monica Oltra, the deputy premier of Valencia’s regional government, has already said that her Compromís party, a key local ally, will not repeat an electoral coalition with Podemos in the April general election. En Marea, a similar ally in Galicia, has also walked away. As a result, Podemos’s broad coalition looks increasingly skinny and self-centred.

Tremlett says that Podemos should ask itself why the three most powerful women in the alternative left (Carmena, Colau and Oltra) operate outside the party, as well as mentions the role of speakswoman in Congress Irene Montero (she's a young and talented politician, a former member of the communist youth who hapens to be the Iglesias' couple). He finishes saying the Andalusia results prove that "something went badly wrong". His diagnosis is "internal strife and narrowness of vision"

Pedro Sánchez presented yesterday the PSOE's pre-campaign. The slogan is "The Spain You Want". I just watched the video and it's good, conveys the message of an inclusive Spain where everybody fits in. It's filmed in b/w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3vxiVaW7wk



Apparently El Periódico de Cataluña published a poll about whether the Catalan issue should be solved with talks or with another round of article 155 (direct rule).

This wouldn't be noteworthy if it wasn't because they took crosstabs for several regions of Spain. The results are here:

The GAD3 poll has the same results on the same question (see a previous post) and it's noteworthy. This turn in public opinion provides a ray of light, IMO



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on February 21, 2019, 12:11:43 PM
If Podemos is drubbed, will Iglesias try and stay on anyway?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on February 21, 2019, 12:33:42 PM
If Podemos is drubbed, will Iglesias try and stay on anyway?

The problem with Podemos is that style of leadership focused on the cult of the Pablo Iglesias personality. It won't be easy to replace him. I remember some rumours pointing Irene Montero as a possible leader after the next general elections. I think she has a raw talent to develop, but she has some disadvantages as well: too young, couple of Pablo Iglesias... Ideologically she and the Pablo Iglesias inner circle are a bit Leninist for my taste. The communist youth makes its mark.

On a related note, I read today there are problens with the Podemos and IU alliances in some regions. There are regions like Asturias and Murcia where both organizations will run separate lists. Madrid and other regions are in the air.  IU might ally with Anticapitalistas (the far-left wing of Pidemos) in some places ...  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: parochial boy on February 22, 2019, 05:06:17 AM
Apparently El Periódico de Cataluña published a poll about whether the Catalan issue should be solved with talks or with another round of article 155 (direct rule).

This wouldn't be noteworthy if it wasn't because they took crosstabs for several regions of Spain. The results are here:

()

Quite surprising to say the least. First of all, I'm surprised talks aren't just winning, but that they are winning handily. Brute force was a lot more popular a couple months ago.

Either way looking at the crosstabs obviously the Basques and Catalans are almost unanimously opposed. Galicia is also quite opposed.

Beyond that there aren't many significant differences elsewhere.
I think the comparison of Andalusia and the Castillas is quite interesting, would have expected it to be the other way round based on traditional partisan support - I suppose the fact that it isn't is quite telling.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on February 23, 2019, 02:49:10 AM
The leader of the opposition in Catalonia Inés Arrimadas is about to enter national politics. She will run for the province of Barcelona in the next general elections. The decision will be officially announced today in a campaign act taking place in Madrid with Cs leader Albert Rivera. Arrimadas will replace Cs spokesman in Congress and former journalist Juan Carlos Girauta on the top of the Barcelona list. Girauta will top the list for Toledo because he's moving his residence to that province. The Operation Arrimadas has been forged with great secrecy, to the point that high officers like secretary general José Manuel Villegas were completely unaware. The news has created internal shock and raised some opposition in an organization totally controlled by Rivera. Arrimadas is very popular for her role in Catalonia and is the only person in the party who could overshadow the supreme leader. Tomorrow she will travel to Belgium in order to perform an act in front of the Puigdemont's residence in Waterloo and remember the ousted premier that the Catalan republic does not exist. Arrimadas could be replaced by regional deputy Lorena Roldán as the Cs spokeswoman in Catalonia. The decision is interpreted as a firm intent to fight with all weapons against PP for the leadership of the Spanish Right.

According to El País, the decision made by the Cs leadership to veto government deals with the PSOE is motivated by public opinion surveys. Demoscopic information shows that there are many rightwing undecided voters that could switch to PP, Cs or Vox. Most of these voters repudiates Pedro Sánchez, as well there is a dangerous vote transfer from Cs to Vox. People like economist Luis Garicano defended not ruling out deals with PSOE, but demoscopic evidence was apparently very strong and finally the decision was approved unanimously.

Disturbing news from Andalusia: Vox asks for the names of gender violence workers, claiming that many of them are not qualified and their decisions are ideologically motivated

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/02/22/inenglish/1550852190_868783.html

Quote
Vox, a Spanish far-right party that gained parliamentary representation at regional elections in Andalusia last December, wants to know the names of government workers who deal with gender violence.

Francisco Serrano, a Vox deputy and the party leader in the southern region, has filed a parliamentary petition asking the Andalusian government for the identities of all the workers at its Gender Violence Integral Assessment Units.

These units comprise psychosocial teams from family courts and other experts specializing in minors, and their job is to evaluate the risk factor for women who suffer from gender violence.

Serrano also wants to see the registration numbers showing that these experts are members of the relevant professional associations. The request encompasses “all the psychologists, social workers and forensic doctors” who have served with these units between 2012 and 2019 (...)

There is some purge flavour floating in the air...

I think the comparison of Andalusia and the Castillas is quite interesting, would have expected it to be the other way round based on traditional partisan support - I suppose the fact that it isn't is quite telling.

The fact that a most people in Andalusia and the Castillas supports the implementation of direct rule is telling, but not very surprising. As for the comparison between these regions, maybe the sample size is not large enough to establish meaningful conclusions. The CIS surveys might be more helpful in that regard, because they have larger samples and make questions on territorial issues. Anyway the opposition of Andalusians to the separatist drive in Catalonia and the divisive effect of that drive within the Spanish Left influenced the last regional elections. Events in Catalonia have always a deep impact in Andalusia for many and varied reasons. Catalonia is sometimes called the "9th province" of Andalusia because there are more than 1 million of people with Andalusian ancestry living there. It's worth noting that the stance of the PSOE branches in Andalusia, Extremadura and Castilla La Mancha is tougher than the stance of the national PSOE. Their 'barons' or regional leaders (Susana Díaz, Guillermo Fernández Vara and Emiliano García-Page) are not the best friends of Pedro Sánchez. Recently the Extremadura regional assembly made a proclamation supporting of the implementation of article 155 in Catalonia with the votes of PSOE, PP and Cs (Podemos opposed)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Michael19754 on February 24, 2019, 10:25:33 AM
New poll by Sigma Dos for El Mundo:
PSOE: 27.3% (110-114)
PP: 19.1% (71-75)
C's: 16% (54-58)
UP: 14.4% (37-39)
VOX: 13.3% (44-46)
Left Block: 41.7% Right Block: 48.4%
Coalitions: PSOE+UP+Nationalists: 173-179 seats/PSOE+C's: 164-172 seats/PP+VOX+C's: 169-179 seats

New poll by Sondaxe for La Voz de Galicia:
PSOE: 28.2% (116)
PP: 19.3% (76)
VOX: 14.2% (51)
UP: 14.2% (39)
C's: 13.5% (40)
Left Block: 42.4% Right Block: 47%
Coalitions: PSOE+UP+Nationalists: 183 seats/PSOE+C's: 156 seats/PP+VOX+C's: 167 seats

The PSOE strategy of conquering the center seems to be working very well. Centrist voters are fleeing from C's due to the party's cuddling with the far-right and its veto on a PSOE-C's coalition. The only problem for them is that their preferred option (PSOE-C's) is very far away from the 176 seats necessary for a majority, they'd need to win the separatists' support once again, which would much more difficult this time around.




Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on February 24, 2019, 11:20:01 AM

The PSOE strategy of conquering the center seems to be working very well. Centrist voters are fleeing from C's due to the party's cuddling with the far-right and its veto on a PSOE-C's coalition. The only problem for them is that their preferred option (PSOE-C's) is very far away from the 176 seats necessary for a majority, they'd need to win the separatists' support once again, which would much more difficult this time around.

The Invymark poll has better numbers for the right: PSOE 24.3%, PP 21%, Cs 20.2%, UP 13.9%, VOX 11.3%

I would like to think that PSOE is recovering ground in the centre at the expense of Cs, but it seems that socialists make gains at the expense of Podemos. Sigma Dos and Sondaxe are showing that VOX is biting PP and Cs alike. The turn to the right of PP and Cs seems to be motivated by the rise of the far right at their expense.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Michael19754 on February 24, 2019, 11:40:08 AM
The Invymark poll has better numbers for the right: PSOE 24.3%, PP 21%, Cs 20.2%, UP 13.9%, VOX 11.3%
Invymark has been overestimating the right for quite some time now. It is published by the progressive La Sexta, so they're probably trying to mobilize the left.
If you look at the combined left total in Sigma Dos , you can see that the gap with the right is becoming smaller. And take a look at the variations with the previous Sigma Dos poll:
PSOE: 27,3% +4,7 (110-114) +18
PP: 19,1% -0,1 (71-75) +1
Cs: 16,0% -2,8 (54-58) -12
UP: 14,4% -1,4 (37-39) -8
VOX: 13,3% +0,4 (44-46) +1
Clearly PSOE is taking away some vote from C's too, not from UP alone.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 24, 2019, 12:39:35 PM
Honestly, I don't consider PSOE-UP-Nationalists (other than PNV) to be a viable coalition. If ERC and PDECat refused to even pass Sánchez's budget, why would they vote for him as PM?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Mike88 on February 24, 2019, 12:49:12 PM
The PP/C's seem, like Michael, to be losing moderate/centrist voters to PSOE. Of course, PSOE is benefiting with the implosion of Podemos, while the rightwing turn of PP and C's isn't also benefiting them because, i say, people prefer the original, Vox, than those who try to copy it, and might i say, very badly.

I think PP would be doing a much better under Soraya Saenz Santamaria than with Casado. She would attract moderate voters that, now, seem to be fleeing from C's to PSOE. But i would like to hear Tack's, Velasco's or Michael's opinion.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Michael19754 on February 24, 2019, 01:19:04 PM
I think PP would be doing a much better under Soraya Saenz Santamaria than with Casado. She would attract moderate voters that, now, seem to be fleeing from C's to PSOE.
Honestly, I have my doubts about whether the PP would be doing better now with Soraya. On one hand, yes, a lot of moderate voters that are going to the socialists now would be supporting the PP. But on the other hand, one of Vox's main argument is that the PP is too soft and it resonates even with the very conservative Casado at the helm. With Soraya leading the party Vox would have more support right now.

Overall I think both effects would roughly cancel each other; but there are also many unknowns about what the party would have done under Soraya. For example, would it have reached an agreement with Vox in Andalusia?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on February 24, 2019, 10:01:48 PM

I think PP would be doing a much better under Soraya Saenz Santamaria than with Casado. She would attract moderate voters that, now, seem to be fleeing from C's to PSOE. But i would like to hear Tack's, Velasco's or Michael's opinion.

I think that Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría would have been a better leader for the PP, obviously. Even though I would never vote for parties like PP pr Cs for ideological and sentimental reasons, I realize that healthy democracies need parties that represent people with liberal and conservative views. I believe that it's in everybody's interest that the main parties have a decent leadership. Santamaría is more skillful than Casado and has a lot of experience in government. She knows how the machinery of the state works, as well as she has a pragmatic approach to politics. Casado is a conservative hack unexperienced and a with dubious academic credentials, the puppy of Esperanza Aguirre and José ;María Aznar. My impression is that Casado could be an incompetent and potentially dangerous PM. Certainly Soraya would have been less prone to rhetorical excess and the PP would have been more centered and moderate under her leadership. However, I'm afraid the Vox surge is an inevitability. It's caused by indignation and anger, triggered by the Catalan crisis (possibly thre are more underlying causes). Vox is the party that represents the rightwing indignados. Despite everything, I think it's better that mainstream liberal and conervative parties preserve their values and personality instead of buying the far right agenda, mimicking its rhetorical excess and ideological extremism. It'd be a way to contain the phenomenon within a relative marginality in the short term... although I think the strategy of the cordon sanitaire doesn't work in the long term, because it doesn't target the root causes. Indeed, I think voters would prefer the original to the copy...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 25, 2019, 10:14:16 AM
The PP/C's seem, like Michael, to be losing moderate/centrist voters to PSOE. Of course, PSOE is benefiting with the implosion of Podemos, while the rightwing turn of PP and C's isn't also benefiting them because, i say, people prefer the original, Vox, than those who try to copy it, and might i say, very badly.

I think PP would be doing a much better under Soraya Saenz Santamaria than with Casado. She would attract moderate voters that, now, seem to be fleeing from C's to PSOE. But i would like to hear Tack's, Velasco's or Michael's opinion.

It's worth noting that the only poll that was done with both candidates found Soraya performing worse than Casado. Granted, that was well before the Vox surge, from a fairly unknown pollster (Top Position) and hypothetical polling in general is pretty bad.

()

()

Still it's the only concrete data point we have.

I personally think Soraya would make for an infinitely better PM than Casado. She might also be more effective at getting moderate Cs and maybe PSOE voters (I could even see her running to the left of Cs on many issues!)

However, I also think she would lose even more to Vox. My hypothetical is that if Soraya was PP leader, polling would probably be closer to something like:

PSOE: 26%
PP: 19%
Vox: 19%
UP: 14%
Cs: 11%

Others 11%

So ironically not much change in PP, but Cs collapsing. Though I could also see PP not being effective at getting Cs voters so it would be Cs doing well and PP going the way of the dodo.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on February 27, 2019, 03:01:08 AM
The trial of the Catalan separatist leaders continues. By the moment the prosecution is having a hard time proving that separatists resorted to violence, the essential requirement of the charge of rebellion (defendants are also charged with sedition, misuse of public funds and disobedience). We are only at the early stages, though

Jordi Cuixart: "The referendum was the biggest exercise in civil disobedience in Europe"

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/02/26/inenglish/1551194163_039224.html

Quote
The last two defendants in the trial of 12 Catalan separatist leaders took the stand on Tuesday inside the Supreme Court in Madrid.

In line with the others who testified before him, Jordi Cuixart, the head of a pro-independence civil organization called Òmnium Cultural, described himself as “a political prisoner, not a politician in prison.”

“I am in prison for being a social activist,” said Cuixart, who has been in pre-trial custody since October 2017, shortly after Catalonia held an unauthorized referendum that was followed by a unilateral independence declaration inside the Catalan parliament.

Important testimonies are scheduled in the upcoming days, including: Mariano Rajoy (former Spanish PM), Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría (former Deputy PM), Artur Mas (former Catalan premier) and Íñigo Urkullu (Basque premier)

The prosecutor0s office in Madrid will request three years and three months of prison for Cristina Cifuentes, the former premier who is accused of forging her Master's degree certificate.

Foreign Affairs minister Josep Borrell will be the top candidate of the PSOE in the upcoming EP elections.

Cs hired a former speaker of the Castilla y León regional assembly creating some controversy. Silvia Clemente resigned her position and the PP memberhip a few days ago, in order to run in the Cs primary election to nominate the party's candidate. Clemente has been in politics more than 20 years, holding several regional portfolios (cultire, environment and agriculture). She alleged that PP premier Alfonso Pérez Mañueco lacks ambition and a project for the region, but she was about to lose her position in the PP electoral list. There are some doubts on her honesty because Clemente's husband spent 1 million euros of unknown origin in a refurbishment, as well the same enterprise in charge of the works at her hisband's house was given contracts by the regional Department of Agriculture during Clemente's tenure. She will be opposed in the primaries by a Cs regional deputy called Francsco Igea. Clemente will run as an independent because the Cs leadership gave her a special permission and she is backed by Secretary general José Manuel Villegas. The move was an "unpleasant surprise" for the PP. In case Silvia Clemente gets the nomination, post-eletion agreements with the incumbent premier seem difficult. The PSOE in Castilla y León is happy with this conflict in the right.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Michael19754 on February 28, 2019, 10:34:51 AM
The CIS has published its monthly poll and as always, the numbers are just ridiculous:
PSOE: 33.3% (up 3.4%)
PP: 16.7% (up 1.8%)
C's: 15.3% (down 2.4%)
UP: 14.5% (down 0.9%)
VOX: 5.9% (down 0.6%)
ERC: 3.3% (down 1.4%)
Left Block: 47.8% Right Block: 37.9%

Also mind that the survey was made during the relator mess, making it even less believable. If during those days the PSOE was on 33%, how much is Tezanos giving his party next time? 40%? 50%? Other notable aspects of the "poll" are VOX being laughably underestimated and ERC losing nearly a third of its voters for no apparent reason.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 01, 2019, 04:35:26 AM
Basque premier mediated between Mariano Rajoy and Carles Puigdemont ahead of the independence declaration by the Catalan parliament

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/02/28/inenglish/1551369776_890031.html

Quote
Basque premier Iñigo Urkullu testifying as a witness at the Supreme Court.
Basque premier Iñigo Urkullu testifying as a witness at the Supreme C
The premier of Spain’s Basque Country on Thursday confirmed that he did “mediation” work between the central and Catalan governments in a bid to stop things from ending up the way they eventually did: with a unilateral independence declaration and the application of emergency measures, including the sacking of the Catalan government by Madrid and a seven-month freeze on regional self-rule (...)

This testimony is very interesting and quite telling as well. It was not a secret that Urkullu and others mediated between the Spanish and the Catalan governments. Recently the Spanish Right created a political storm over the proposal (poorly explained by Deputy PM Carmen Calvo) to sppoint a "rapporteur", in order to coordonate the meetings of a future Catalan party talks. Casado and Rivera cried "high treason" and went to Colón Square with Abascal, making the Vox's campaign.

The CIS has published its monthly poll and as always, the numbers are just ridiculous:

Everything you need to know about the CIS poll is in El Mundo Today

https://www.elmundotoday.com/2019/02/la-senora-del-psoe-que-responde-a-las-encuestas-del-cis-vuelve-a-pronosticar-la-victoria-de-pedro-sanchez/?fbclid=IwAR39WQUM88T-W_v2hLQDx5szA5JspmBc6JIag8Ik47PBdToMbLMJOIV8REs

I predict that Pedro Sánchez is going to win as that woman did, or at least the PSOE will come first. The question is the margin and its influence in the final composition of the parliament. I would take a beer with the 'traitor' Pedro Sánchez too...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jaichind on March 01, 2019, 08:35:46 AM
It seems the key to this election is the vote share of UP and VOX.  There seems to be an inflection point around 13%-14% vote share (which could shift because it depends on the vote share of other parties) where above this threshold there will be a surge of seats and below it the seat haul seems low. So the question becomes is the VOX vote share like 10%-11% or 13%-14%.  Just like the question is also will UF vote share be 11%-12% or 14%-15%.  The polls seems to indicate that for both parties both levels of support are possible.  Weather one or both or none of these 2 parties gets around that inflection point seems critical to the nature of government formation post election.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 04, 2019, 03:46:17 AM
Woman's Day demonstrations will take place in four days. According to a 40dB poll released yesterday by El País 64.5% of women under 25 declare themselves feminist, almost twice than 5 years ago. Support for feminism decreases among women aged between 35 and 54 years and increases again among those aged above 55. Men are less concerned: 45.9% under 25 declare themselves feminist and the percentage decreases with older age.

()

Nearly a half of women and a third of men think that the goal of feminism is the real equality between genders. PSOE and Podemos voters agree at a higher rate; in contrast 70% of Vox voters rejects that feminism pursues equality.

Podemos and PSOE are rated as the most feminist parties with a great difference over Cs, PP and Vox:

()

The most important goals of the feminist movement are, in decreasing order: eliminate the glass ceiling, fight gender based violence, harassment and sexual assaults, gender stereotypes, domestic work equally, abortion, gender quotas, inclusive language.

https://elpais.com/sociedad/2019/03/03/actualidad/1551638433_568255.html

A Spanish ultraconservative organization has launched a campaign against "feminazis"

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/01/inenglish/1551428604_932895.html

Quote
   
Spanish ultraconservative Catholic organization Hazte Oír (Make Yourself Heard) has launched a bus campaign against “feminazis” and what it considers “radical feminism.

he campaign calls on Spain’s conservative political leaders – Pablo Casado from the Popular Party (PP), Albert Rivera from Ciudadanos (Citizens) and Santiago Abascal from the far-right party Vox  – to repeal the 2004 gender violence law and legal protections granted by Spanish regions to the LGBTQI community.

The bus will travel through several Spanish cities until International Women’s Day on March 8, when a women’s strike and demonstration have been planned.

“It’s not gender violence, it’s domestic violence” is the main message plastered on the bus. “Gender laws discriminate against men. Casado, Rivera, Abascal: Repeal the gender laws,” is written below.

The bus also features an image of Adolf Hitler wearing makeup and the symbol of feminism on his military cap, above the hashtag “#StopFeminazis,” (...)

On the other hand, Cs launched a somewhat misguided "liberal feminist" manifesto in a desperate attempt to differentiate from Vox. Oranges admit the existence of gender based violence and commit themselves against that plague. They say that feminism is not a monopoly of the left. In my opinion, the problem is their idea of "liberalism" in relation to prostitution and surrogacy. Cs advocates for a regulation of these practices, considering that being into prostitution and womb renting are a matters of free choice, ignoring the socioeconomic circumstances that force women to sell their bodies.

As you see, feminism is a campaign issue.

The last thing appearing in the Wikipedia's summary of polls is a Key Data analysis ("poll of polls") released by Público that estimates the following results:

PSOE 25.1%, PP 21.5%, Cs 18%, UP 14.5%, Vox 10.9%, ERC 3.1%, PDeCAT 1.5%, EAJ-PNV 1.3%

Seats estimated:

()



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: bigic on March 04, 2019, 05:24:17 AM

On the other hand, Cs launched a somewhat misguided "liberal feminist" manifesto in a desperate attempt to differentiate from Vox. Oranges admit the existence of gender based violence and commit themselves against that plague. They say that feminism is not a monopoly of the left. In my opinion, the problem is their idea of "liberalism" in relation to prostitution and surrogacy. Cs advocates for a regulation of these practices, considering that being into prostitution and womb renting are a matters of free choice, ignoring the socioeconomic circumstances that force women to sell their bodies.


The same argument can be made against wage labour, which is precisely why I disagree with such arguments against prostitution and surrogacy - I consider them morally equivalent to wage labour, and the reactionary right arguments against prostitution and surrogacy are also based on the premise that they are not morally equivalent with wage labour.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on March 04, 2019, 06:46:02 AM
Electomania.es apparently will be publishing vote estimations all weekdays for all elections that will happen. (so mondays for the general election, tuesdays for the EU elections, etc)

These are not proper polls, but estimations based off an online panel. So you shoud treat them with caution.

http://electomania.es/ep4m/#idc-cover

Also, apparently premier Ximo Puig (PSOE) of the Valencian Community will call a snap regional election for the day of the general election (28th of April), probably trying to capitalize on the PSOE surge nationally.

https://www.lasprovincias.es/politica/puig-convoca-consell-adelanto-electoral-comunitat-valenciana-20190304090807-nt.html

Ironically, Puig was originally against a "super sunday" yet he will now call for one lol

If confirmed, there would be several firsts:

-First regional election to happen the same day as a general election since Andalucia 2008

-First snap regional election in a "non historic" autonomous community (ie not Andalucia/Catalonia/Basque Country/Galicia) since Asturias 2012

-First snap regional election that won't get a regular election when the original election term is over (wouldn't even make sense in this case)

Over the last 15 years, several autonomous communities passed new autonomy statutes giving themselves more powers, among those the power to call snap regional elections and not be confined to holding them alongside the local elections. However, the Valencian Community will be the first to exercise this power.

I'm currently rating the Valencian regional elections as lean PP. Puig is an underdog, but he is not overly disadvantaged.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 04, 2019, 06:59:04 AM

On the other hand, Cs launched a somewhat misguided "liberal feminist" manifesto in a desperate attempt to differentiate from Vox. Oranges admit the existence of gender based violence and commit themselves against that plague. They say that feminism is not a monopoly of the left. In my opinion, the problem is their idea of "liberalism" in relation to prostitution and surrogacy. Cs advocates for a regulation of these practices, considering that being into prostitution and womb renting are a matters of free choice, ignoring the socioeconomic circumstances that force women to sell their bodies.


The same argument can be made against wage labour, which is precisely why I disagree with such arguments against prostitution and surrogacy - I consider them morally equivalent to wage labour, and the reactionary right arguments against prostitution and surrogacy are also based on the premise that they are not morally equivalent with wage labour.

My opinion is that prostitution and surrogacy imply the commodification of the women's body, not to mention the sordid elements surrounding prostitution and sexual exploitation. Wage labour implies that you sell your workforce to the employer, not necessarily your body in a sexually exploitative way. Maybe there's a difference after all, but possibly all these things are to be discused in other boards... As for surrogacy, I  just heard to Inés Arrimadas saying that Cs only supports it when surrogacy is "altruist", not the "womb renting". I find difficult to imagine a woman of middle or high socioeconomic status breeding a child for other woman only for altruist reasons. Apparently the Cs folks think otherwise


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Skye on March 04, 2019, 08:16:15 AM
Electomania.es apparently will be publishing vote estimations all weekdays for all elections that will happen. (so mondays for the general election, tuesdays for the EU elections, etc)

These are not proper polls, but estimations based off an online panel. So you shoud treat them with caution.

http://electomania.es/ep4m/#idc-cover

Also, apparently premier Ximo Puig (PSOE) of the Valencian Community will call a snap regional election for the day of the general election (28th of April), probably trying to capitalize on the PSOE surge nationally.

https://www.lasprovincias.es/politica/puig-convoca-consell-adelanto-electoral-comunitat-valenciana-20190304090807-nt.html

Ironically, Puig was originally against a "super sunday" yet he will now call for one lol

If confirmed, there would be several firsts:

-First regional election to happen the same day as a general election since Andalucia 2008

-First snap regional election in a "non historic" autonomous community (ie not Andalucia/Catalonia/Basque Country/Galicia) since Asturias 2012

-First snap regional election that won't get a regular election when the original election term is over (wouldn't even make sense in this case)

Over the last 15 years, several autonomous communities passed new autonomy statutes giving themselves more powers, among those the power to call snap regional elections and not be confined to holding them alongside the local elections. However, the Valencian Community will be the first to exercise this power.

I'm currently rating the Valencian regional elections as lean PP. Puig is an underdog, but he is not overly disadvantaged.

I find this electopanel super interesting. I'll be constantly checking it.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 04, 2019, 01:02:31 PM
Valencia premier Ximo Puig (PSOE) calls regional election on April 28, alongside general elections. This decision is aimed to increase turnout, taking afvantage of the Pedro Sánchez's traction and give nationwide visibility to the Valencia region. PSOE governs in coalition with leftwing regionalist Compromis and the Podemos confidence and supply. Compromis was opposed to this date, preferring May 26 alongside local elections. Compromis is led by deputy premier Mónica Oltra; another leading figure of the regionalists is the mayor of the capital city of Valencia Joan Ribó.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Michael19754 on March 05, 2019, 07:04:09 AM
Valencia premier Ximo Puig (PSOE) calls regional election on April 28, alongside general elections.
Very, very risky. A regional election on April 28 means a worse result for Compromis, securing the PSPV's status as the main left-wing party, but it also means that the campaign will probably be nationalized, helping the right-wing parties. Could be the political suicide of the year.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 05, 2019, 01:06:55 PM
Time to repost the 2015 map

()

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Valencian_regional_election


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on March 05, 2019, 02:16:36 PM
The moves in Valencia are a classic case of poltiicians playing for the short term. Back when PSOE was down to the triumvirate, they didn't want to taint the locals. Now that they are about equal and PSOE is rising, local leaders want to hop on that train. Of course things can change in a month, so its a a rather short sighted move.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 06, 2019, 04:54:07 AM
Valencia premier Ximo Puig (PSOE) calls regional election on April 28, alongside general elections.
Very, very risky. A regional election on April 28 means a worse result for Compromis, securing the PSPV's status as the main left-wing party, but it also means that the campaign will probably be nationalized, helping the right-wing parties. Could be the political suicide of the year.

The snap election in Andalusia was already a political suicide. Susana Diaz miscalculated her forces, expecting to win easily without the help of her enemy Pedro Sánchez and the national PSOE. The plan of Susana Diaz was to repeat her deal with Ciudadanos and wait the right moment to adjust accounts with Pedro Sánchez, once the fragile coalition with Podemos and the peripheral nationalists was beginning to break down. Then she could take revenge. The wear of the Andalusian socialists after 37 years in government and the corruption scandals (ERE case and others), as well as the repercusions of the Catalan conundrum, created the conditions for disaster. Four previous regional elections were called in Andalusia in coincidence with the Spanish general elections. In all cases the PSOE performed well.

Ximo Puig appears to be a pragmatist. He supported Susana Diaz in the leadership contest, but now he has an acceptable relationship with Pedro Sánchez (the PM's right hand José Luis Abalos is Valencian). Puig is seeking to  repeat a left-wing majority, because a deal with Cs is very unlikely in Valencia. Cs regional candidate Toni Cantó says that Puig is a  Trojan Horse of the Catalans. Puig is fron Morella, a small town of the Castellón province located near to the border with Aragon and Catalonia, in the NW corner of the region (see the deep red in the map). He is more moderate than Susana Diaz and other socialist 'barons' in what concerns the management of the Catalan crisis. His relationship with Compromis has been reasonably good, although the move to call a snap election is opposed by Mónica Oltra (however she stated the coalition will be repeated, although she hopes to win and be the next premier). Obviously Puig is seeking to reinforce the PSPV-PSOE at the expense of Compromis. The move is a relief for Unidos Podemos as well, because the cpincidence with general elections might help to reduce losses. Puig is taking a risk, but maybe this tactical move will work (or maybe not).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 08, 2019, 03:56:24 AM
PP will not attend the Women's Day march today while Pablo Casado attacks "left-wing feminists"

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/07/inenglish/1551946883_713484.html

Quote
Spain’s Popular Party (PP) has announced it will not be attending the demonstration in Madrid for International Women’s Day on Friday, March 8. In a press release, the opposition conservative group defended its decision on the grounds that the declaration that will be read out at the march is “politicized” and “partisan.”

“Far-left parties want to monopolize this demonstration, looking to create division and conflict between men and women, and even between women of different ideologies,” the party stated.

However, PP leader Pablo Casado told members that they could still join the women’s general strike, which has also been called for Friday, or attend the demonstration if they wanted to, according to sources from the PP (...)

Female leaders within the PP, including the vice secretaries of communication Marta González, of social policy Cuca Gamarra and of studies and programs Andrea Levy, had planned to attend the Friday protest but changed their mind when they saw the declaration that would be read at the march, said PP sources.

In one paragraph, the text says: “This year, we join the global cry of women in Brazil, in the United States, in Italy, in India and in other parts of the world against the patriarchal reactions to women’s progress towards achieving our rights, and against the right and far right that have placed women and migrants as the top priority of their ultraliberal, racist and patriarchal offensive.” (...)

While I think it's undeniable the radical and the far right are misogynist and it's  necessary to denounce leaders like Trump or Bolsonaro (among others) in a Women's Day march, possibly it would have been better to negotiate the declaration's wording. Despite Casado and some radicals in the PP, there some are right-wing women believing in gender equality (feminism is not about sex war) that should be in the march. However and in my view, the double standard of PP and Cs with regards to Vox detracts legitimacy to their complaints.

Vox member arrested on alleged sexual abuse of disabled man.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/06/inenglish/1551879031_488424.html

Quote
Spanish political party Vox is trying to distance itself from José Antonio Ortiz Cambray, who until now had been the emerging far-right group’s visible face in the Catalan city of Lleida, but on Tuesday was arrested on accusations of sexually abusing at least one person with a severe disability, according to police sources consulted by EL PAÍS.

In an official statement released by Vox, which garnered a surprise result in the Andalusian regional elections late last year, the party claimed that the detained man “does not occupy any role of responsibility in Vox and is just a grassroots member.” The messages posted by the party on Twitter and Instagram in which he was presented as its president in Lleida have been deleted (...)

In other news, Podemos leader Pablo Iglesias will return to a more active role on March 23, after his paternity leave. This image was briefly posted in the party's Twitter account and raised criticism due to its "messianic" message. It says:

"VUELVE" ("HE COMES BACK"). "Pablo Iglesias meets again with the people".

Maybe this is not the best way to refute the personality cult allegations...

()



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on March 08, 2019, 08:49:54 AM
Ok, so today was Womens' day. Like last year, there was a strike programmed, which seems to be completely nonexistent, although I have to say it was marginally more successful than last year.

I do expect the protests this to be huge though, certainly larger than last year.

The main difference is obviously the fact that Vox is a lot larger than last year, wiht their controversial anti-feminist platform, as well as the PP turn to the right.

Today El Mundo published a poll about this issue. Here are its results:

Do you think it's reasonable that the anti gender violence law has stronger punishments for men than for women because of their physical superiority?

(Yes-No)

Men: 35-55
Women: 34-50
Overall: 34-53

Do you think your significant other is sexist? (machista)

(Yes-no)

Men: 2-87
Women: 12-77
Overall: 7-82

Do you consider yourself a feminist?
(Yes-no)

Men: 37-55
Women: 49-47
Overall: 43-51

I personally know mistreated women
(Yes-no)

Men: 40-59
Women: 48-52
Overall: 44-55

Do you consider Spanish politics to be sexist?

Men: 55-40
Women: 71-22
Overall: 64-31

Full poll, with party and age crosstabs: https://www.elmundo.es/papel/historias/2019/03/08/5c81477efdddffe7208b463a.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on March 08, 2019, 10:23:23 AM
Actually, forget what I said earlier, the strike was actually a (partial) success this year.

Electric consumption is down 2% right now. That is indeed low, but putting it in comparison to other strikes puts them into context:

-The 2012 general strike saw roughly a 14% decrease.

-The 2017 Catalan strike saw roughly a 3% decrease

-The 2018 women's strike saw no decrease at this time, peaking at a 2% decrease around 8:30 (the time of the protests)

Assuming the energy consumption data follows a 2018-like pattern, that means the strike will see a 5% decrease or so at its peak, and a 2% decrease over the whole day.

Those are numbers comparable to the Catalan strike, albeit spread out across the whole country, and with less people to strike (7.5 million Catalans vs 23 million women, and that doesn't count the handful of men who follow the strike as well)

Still, certainly a lot bigger than last year.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 08, 2019, 12:09:25 PM
Actually, forget what I said earlier, the strike was actually a (partial) success this year.

Electric consumption is down 2% right now. That is indeed low, but putting it in comparison to other strikes puts them into context:

-The 2012 general strike saw roughly a 14% decrease.

-The 2017 Catalan strike saw roughly a 3% decrease

-The 2018 women's strike saw no decrease at this time, peaking at a 2% decrease around 8:30 (the time of the protests)

Assuming the energy consumption data follows a 2018-like pattern, that means the strike will see a 5% decrease or so at its peak, and a 2% decrease over the whole day.

Those are numbers comparable to the Catalan strike, albeit spread out across the whole country, and with less people to strike (7.5 million Catalans vs 23 million women, and that doesn't count the handful of men who follow the strike as well)

Still, certainly a lot bigger than last year.

It's not posible to compare the women's strike with a general strike for various reasons. To begin eith this one is for women: men are asked to support it by replacing women in all the tasks usually performed by the latter, including non-paid activities traditionally feminine such as homework and caring. Another aspect tp take into account is that unions are not calling the strike, just giving legal coverage. Mainstream unions (UGT and CCOO) are supporting 2h strikes by shift work, while other unions are supporting 24h strikes. Women can choose one option or another. Comparisons in electric consumption decrease with the 2012 general strike or the 2017 strike in Catalonia are not appropiate.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 09, 2019, 02:33:13 AM
El País:  "Students lead the protests for the International Women's Day"

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/08/inenglish/1552051103_915747.html

Quote
Young women are at the center of the protests that got underway this morning in Spain, to coincide with the March 8 strike for International Women’s Day.

In Castellón, a group of protestors prevented the president of the Popular Party (PP), Pablo Casado, from delivering a speech ahead of the campaign for local and regional elections. A group made up mostly of women banged pots, blew on whistles and shouted out messages such as: “You are the patriarchy!” and “Casado, you machista, you’re on our list!” The PP leader has openly criticized “leftist feminism” and said he would not attend today’s march in Madrid because he claims it has been co-opted by the political left (...)

Feminist marches throughout Spain were massive. According to the government's delegations, around 350k gathered in Madrid (170k the previous year, according the same sources) and 220k in Valencia. Local police estimated 200k people in the Barcelona march. Even taking the estimation made by El País for the Madrid march, which is 230k at the declaration's reading, the figure is much higher tan the attendance to the right wing rally in Colón Square. I'm not implying a correlation between these figures and possible election results, just to be clear. I think it's undeniable these protests will have political repercussions, but it's up to see if they can contribute to mobilize certain voter groups (for instance: left-wing, young and female). In any case, I think these marches are positive because I believe that achieving real gender equality is a worthwile cause.

Gallery:

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/08/album/1552057387_882592.html#foto_gal_1

NYT has an interesting peace on the raise of the minimum wage

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/07/business/spain-minimum-wage.html?rref=collection%2Ftimestopic%2FSpain

Quote
As Spain grapples with a turbulent political crisis, one of Europe’s last Socialist governments may soon fall amid the rise of a new nationalism in the country. But whatever the outcome, Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez is leaving behind a signature legacy: a record increase in the minimum wage.

The 22 percent rise that took effect in January, to 1,050 euros (about $1,200) a month, is the largest in Spain in 40 years. Yet the move has ignited a debate over whether requiring employers to pay more of a living wage is a social watershed, or a risky attempt at economic engineering (...)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: MAINEiac4434 on March 09, 2019, 09:14:03 PM
Are PP, Vox or C's saying they'll repeal Sanchez's minimum wage increase?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: windjammer on March 10, 2019, 10:10:59 AM
So according to the polls, the Basque Nationalist Party is going to decide who would become PM?
What is their opinion of VOX? I guess they won't like supporting an hardcore centralist party?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 10, 2019, 12:43:21 PM
Are PP, Vox or C's saying they'll repeal Sanchez's minimum wage increase?

As far as I know, the PP supports a gradual increase of minimum wage similar to the one agreed between the Mariano Rajoy administration, unions and employers organizations. PP submitted a counterproposal in late 2018 to increase minimum wage to 773 Euros in 2019, instead of the 900 Euros agreed between PSOE and UP.

On the other hand, Cs is proposing to create a commission, something like a panel of experts or a board of economists, an advisory organ that reports to the government. The minimum wage would be fixed by the government on the recommendations of said panel.

I don't know what is the Vox proposal on minimum wage.

 

I guess PP and Cs will incorporate these proposals in their platforms. Vox has a 100 point manifesto plenty of populist hooks, but I'm afraid they don't care very much about details. I don't know if these parties are going to launch an overt campaign against the increase of minimum wage. Possibly it will be more profitable for them campaigning on other issues related to identity politics.

So according to the polls, the Basque Nationalist Party is going to decide who would become PM?
What is their opinion of VOX? I guess they won't like supporting an hardcore centralist party?

Obviously the PNV folks have a terrible opinion of a party like Vox that stands for the abolition of regional autonomy. There was already a big concern in the PNV ranks last year, when Cs took the lead in the polls. Cs is not as radically centralist as to support the abolition of the autonomous communuties. However the Oranges are very vocal against the special tax system ruling in the Basque Country (Concierto Económico), because they consider it's a privilege. Cs is more centralist than PP on this question, since the PP doesn't oppose the Concierto. The PNV has made advantageous agreements in the past with PP administrations (either Rajoy or Aznar) in exchange for confidence and supply or support for the national budget. However the PNV will never support a coalition that incorporates Cs or Vox,  given their radical centralist stance. Basque nationalists are more prone to support a government led by Pedro Sánchez,  although not without monetary or other considerations. The problem for Pedro Sánchez is not the PNV, rather it's the reliance upon Catalan separatist parties. The decision of Cs to put a veto on Sánchez and his party fixes two opposite blocks and leaves no room for other combinations


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Michael19754 on March 11, 2019, 02:16:21 AM
Here's the new round of polling:
GAD3 for ABC:
PSOE: 30.6%(134 seats)
PP: 22.1% (87 seats)
C's: 13.2% (38 seats)
VOX: 12.1% (36 seats)
UP: 11.8% (30 seats)
Left Block: 42.4% Right Block: 47.4%
Coalitions: PSOE+UP+Nationalists: 189 seats; PSOE+C's: 172 seats; PP+C's+VOX: 161 seats

Sociométrica for El Español:
PSOE: 27.6%(119-121 seats)
C's: 17.8% (63-65 seats)
PP: 17.5% (69-71 seats)
UP: 14.1% (37-39 seats)
VOX: 12.1% (31-34 seats)
Left Block: 41.7% Right Block: 47.4%
Coalitions: PSOE+UP+Nationalists: 182-186 seats; PSOE+C's: 182-186 seats; PP+C's+VOX: 163-170 seats

Invymark for La Sexta:
PSOE: 25.2%(107 seats)
PP: 20.4% (81 seats)
C's: 20.3% (73 seats)
UP: 13.2% (34 seats)
VOX: 11.5% (28 seats)
Left Block: 38.4% Right Block: 52.2%
Coalitions: PSOE+UP+Nationalists: 165 seats; PSOE+C's: 181 seats; PP+C's+VOX: 182 seats

Each poll is saying something different: for GAD3, C's is going down to 2016 levels and for Sociométrica and Invymark the party is tied with PP. For GAD3 and Sociométrica the right-wing block is going to lose seats, while Invymark says it will win a majority. The only thing that seems clear is that PSOE is going to win by a substantial margin. Everything else is up in the air.
It should be noted, however, that the pollsters that work for conservative media outlets (GAD3 and Sociométrica) are the ones that are giving the left victory, while the one that works for a progressive outlet (Invymark)  is giving it to the right.
What's happening is very clear. No pollster knows what is going to happen and they're just trying to mobilize their camp's voters. Right wing pollsters are trying to water down the possibility of a right-wing government supported by VOX so that leftist voters fall in complacency while the left-wing ones are doing the opposite in order to mobilize the left.







Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 12, 2019, 05:15:19 AM
Ciudadanos (Cs) held primary elections on Sunday to nominate candidates for the upcoming elections in April and May. The primary election to select the regional candidate in Castilla y León turned out to be a fiasco, the first serious setback for Albert Rivera and his controversial policy of "recruiting talent" from other parties. Independent pre-candidate Silvia Clemente was proclaimed on Sunday over national deputy Francisco Igea, after winning the contest by a narrow margin of 35 votes. The nomination of Clemente was suspended on the following day, after her rival demanded an audit of the voting records. It was discovered the sum of the votes for the candidates exceeded the votes cast by 81. The party's guarantee commission declared these votes null and proclaimed Igea as the winner. As said in a previous post, Silvia Clemente is a controversial and long time PP member who was speaker of the regional assembly and held several portfolios in the regional government. This apparent voting fraud adds up to various suspicions over her past activities. Clemente had the overt support of Cs secretary general José Manuel Villegas. Nobody at Cs has taken the responsibility for the voting fraud, nor gave any explanation aside saying it was "someone's error". Bad business for a party that claims to be a champion against corruption.

60% of undecided voters are women, according to the last CIS survey. In other words, 4 million women have yet to decide who to vote in April and May

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/05/inenglish/1551780068_025839.html

Quote
The survey, which was conducted in January, shows that of all the respondents who said they still didn’t know who to vote for, nearly 60% – around four million voters – were women.

This could explain why political campaigning has been focusing on women: the PP is suggesting a national pact on the salary gap, while Ciudadanos has come up with a “liberal feminist manifesto” that includes regulatory measures for prostitution and surrogacy. Meanwhile, the Unidos Podemos coalition, made up of the United Left and the anti-austerity Podemos, has changed its name to the more feminine-sounding Unidas Podemos.

Although the PP does not embrace feminism (it does not see the need for a collective movement to fight for women’s rights), it is the Spanish party with the highest number of female voters, followed closely by the PSOE. The CIS poll shows that 57% of respondents who said they will vote for the PP are women. That figure was 55% for the Socialists (...)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on March 13, 2019, 11:02:27 AM
First of all, there has been a deal in Navarra between UPN (Right wing regionalists, traditionally close to PP), PP and Cs to run together in the general and regional elections. This is probably good news for conservatives, as it will optimize their vote much more efficiently than with separate parties. For the general election this gives them at least 2 Congress seats with a chance at 3. In the Senate it gives them either 1 or 3 Senators (I don't think htey will be locked out). And in the regional and local elections, it will optimize their vote as there was a real risk of both PP and Cs falling below the threshold. This is especially important for Pamplona mayor, where the Bildu incumbent is probably not favoured (albeit far from dead on arrival). The regioanl election is harder, but not impossible.

The platform will be called "Navarra suma" (Navarra adds up)

https://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20190311/pp-ciudadanos-upn-pacto-electoral-navarra-7347336

And speaking of regional elections...



Electomanía has been publishing weekly estimations for all elections (local, regional, general, EU) reciently. These aren't proper polls, but instead are "online panels".

I don't think they are of much use for the general election. However, given the lack of polling for the May regional elections (for good reason), I think their regional polls are worth checking out, as they will probably be the only polls we get until after the general election (and even after it, who knows how many regional polls we will get, there's also the EU election after all).

The only one that looks totally wrong is the Balearic Islands one (they give out 63 seats when there are only 59 seats in the Assembly). However there are other weird facts like the fact that they give Vox extremely good numbers and the fact that they seem to predict a lot of ticket splitting between the general, EU, local and regional elections.

In any case, here they are for this week.

http://electomania.es/ep13m/

Asturias
PSOE 15
PP 10
Cs 6
Vox 5
Podemos 5
IU 3
Foro Asturias 1 (right wing regionalists, PP split)

Castille-Leon
PSOE 28
PP 25
Vox 15
Cs 9
UP 3
UPL 1 (Centrist Leon regionalists)

Cantabria
PRC 10 (centre-left Cantabria regionalists)
PP 7
PSOE 6
Vox 5
Cs 4
UP 3

La Rioja
PSOE 10
PP 7
Cs 5
Vox 5
UP 4
PR+: 2 (centrist Riojan regionalists)

Navarra
UPN 14 (right wing Navarra regionalists/unionists, pro Spanish unity and the like)
PSOE 10
GBai 10 (centrist Navarra nationalists, pro joining the Basque Country, kind of a Navarra branch of PNV to some extent)
EH Bildu 8 (left wing Basque secessionists)
Podemos 4
IU 2
Cs 2

Madrid
PSOE 40
Vox 26
PP 24
Cs 20
MM 11 (left wing, Podemos split led by Íñigo Errejón)
Podemos 11

Extremadura
PSOE 24
PP 14
Vox 13
Cs 8
UP 6

Castille-La Mancha
PSOE 13
PP 10
Vox 5
Cs 3
UP 2

Murcia
PP 12
PSOE 11
Cs 10
Vox 8
UP 4

Aragon
PSOE 19
PP 16
Vox 11
UP 8
Cs 8
PAR 3 (centre-right Aragon regionalists)
ChA 2 (left wing Aragon regionalists)

Valencia (election in April, not May)
PSOE 29
PP 22
Compromís 15 (left wing Valencia nationalists)
Vox 15
Cs 13
UP 5

Balearic Islands (going with percentages as the seat count doesn't add up)

PSOE: 20.6%
PP 16.9%
Cs: 13.5%
MES: 13.3% (left wing Balearic Islands nationalists)
Vox: 11.5%
UP: 10.0%
PI: 8.0% (centre-right Balearic Islands nationalists)
MPM: 1.5% (brand of MES in Minorca)
GxF: 0.5% (centre-left Formentera local party)

Canary Islands

PSOE 20
CC 16 (centre-right Canarian nationalists)
PP 12
NCa 7 (left wing Canarian nationalists)
UP 6
Cs 4
ASG 3 (centre-left La Gomera local party)
Vox 2



If these "panel" is to be belived, my predictions would be:

Asturias: PSOE-Podemos-IU
Castille-Leon: PP-Vox-Cs
Cantabria: PRC-PSOE-UP
La Rioja: PSOE-PR+-Cs !!!
Navarra: PSOE-GBai-Podemos-IU
Madrid: Vox-PP-Cs !!
Extremadura: PP-Cs-Vox
Castille-La Mancha: PP-Vox-Cs
Murcia: PP-Cs-Vox
Aragon: PP-Cs-Vox
Valencia: PSOE-Compromís-UP
Balearic Islands: PSOE-Mes-MPM-GxF-PI
Canary Islands: PSOE-NCa-UP-ASG

The most surprising result by far is La Rioja. A community which everyone thought was safe for PP, but where this panel predicts there's a possibility of PSOE taking back the region for the first time since 1991. Other long term flips involve the Canary Islands going to PSOE for the first time since 1993, Navarra going to PSOE for the first time since 1995 and (technically) Madrid flipping for the first time since 1995 (if we forget about 2003's Tamayazo).

In terms of trends, this panel also predicts the left holding a lot better in places they reciently captured that have a regional language or some sort of regionalist movement (Balearic Islands, Canary Islands, Valencia, Navarra) than even in their strongest strongholds like Castille-La Mancha or Extremadura.

Extremadura would be particularly damaging as, like with Andalucia, there has never been a right wing majority there. Extremadura is probably the closest community to Andalucia sociologically speaking. Unlike Andalucia Extremadura did have a PP premier at one point though; when in 2011 Jose Antonio Monago (PP) led a minority government propped up by IU abstaining. But even then, PSOE+IU had a majority on paper, it's just that IU decided to prop up a PP minority instead.

Finally, here are my personal ratings:

Asturias: 2 way tossup (PSOE-PP)
Castille-Leon: Safe PP
Cantabria: Lean PRC
La Rioja: Likely PP
Navarra: 3 way tossup (PSOE-GBai-UPN)
Madrid: 3 way tossup (PSOE-Cs-PP)
Extremadura: 2 way tossup (PSOE-PP)
Castille-La Mancha: 2 way tossup (PSOE-PP)
Murcia: Likely PP
Aragon: Likely PP
Valencia: 2 way tossup (PSOE-PP)
Balearic Islands: Lean PSOE
Canary Islands: Lean PSOE
Ceuta: Lean PP
Melilla: Lean PP

I think I used too many tossups :P But I do think there is genuinely a lot of uncertainty about the regional elections; even more than for the general one.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 13, 2019, 12:54:47 PM
First of all, there has been a deal in Navarra between UPN (Right wing regionalists, traditionally close to PP), PP and Cs to run together in the general and regional elections

Indeed. This deal forces Cs to modulate its stance against the special tax system of Navarre, which is more or less similar to that of the neighbouring Basque Country. On the other hand, this opposition is the main reason of the Cs weakness in the "Foral Territories" (Navarre and the Basque provinces). The chances of winning seats for Cs in the Navarrese regional elections and in the Basque provincial elections (Diputaciones Forales) are very slim running in its own. I heard the following rationale to Luis Garicano, who is the Cs chief economist and top candidate for the EP elections: Cs will respect the economic agreement of Navarre because it's in the Spanish Constitution; however, Cs is still against these regional particularities and would support the abolition of Fueros and economic agreements in the event of a constitutional reform.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_Economic_Agreement

Quote
he Economic Agreement (Basque: kontzertu ekonomikoa, Spanish: Concierto económico) is a juridical instrument that regulates the taxation and financial relations between the General Administration of the Kingdom of Spain and the Autonomous Community of the Basque Country.

In other news, PP leader Pablo Casado is asking VOX not to run in small provinces (in terms of seats), in order to prevent a split of the rightwing vote that favours PSOE.

El País: "Spain’s Vox gets nearly €3m in public funds despite tough talk on subsidies"

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/13/inenglish/1552465079_939994.html

Quote
This combined income comes out to just over €2.9 million, of which 98% represents public subsidies for election expenses (nearly €1.7 million) and annual allocations to help political groups with parliamentary representation carry out their duties (approximately €1.2 million).

There is a faction of the CUP that intends to run in the general elections for the Catalan provinces. This decision may provoke a split in the organization, whose traditional policy (endorsed in a recent meeting) is not running in Spanish elections. The CUP is a far-left pro-independence party that advocates the unilateral path for the Catalan Republic. Its deputies in the regional parlament ceased to support the Catalan government, criticizing the excessive "autonomism" of the Torra administration. The CUP was founded as a sum of local candidacies running in local elections throughout Catalonia. It gained a small but loyal voter base on grassroots work. Subsequently in October 2012 the CUP ran its first regional elections, getting 3.5% and winning 3 seats. In the September 2015 elections the CUP more than doubled its share, getting 8.2% and winning 10 seats. The reason of this increase is that many ERC voters disgruntled by the coalition with the right wing nationalists (ERC and CDC ran together in the JxSI ticket) switched to the CUP. By the December 2017 elections the CUP decreased again (4.4% and 4 seats). Much of the CUP voters in regional elections went to En Comú Podem and ERC in the 2015 and 2016 general elections (others presumably abstained).



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 16, 2019, 01:10:01 AM
PP leader Pablo Casado is getting rid of the Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría supporters in the compilation of electoral lists. Former Labour minister Fátima Báñez announced that she quits politics, following other retiring members of the Rajoy administration close to Santamaría. Additionally the former general coordinator of the PP Fernando Martínez Maíllo (the "Rajoy's Fireman") has been ousted from the top position in Zamora province. The cleansing of the rival faction is creating some unrest within the PP ranks. The former ministers who supported María Dolores de Cospedal in the first round of the leadership contest have been rewarded for their support to Casado in the second round.  Former Justice minister Rafael Catalá will top the list in Cuenca and former Agriculture minister Isabel García de Tejerina will run for Valladolid. The star draftee of the Casado's project is Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo, a journalist and former deputy (2008-2015) very close to Aznar who leads the FAES foundation. Álvarez de Toledo replaces current PP parliamentary spokeswoman Dolors Montserrat as the top candidate in Barcelona province, where she will have to compete against the Cs rising star Inés Arrimadas. Aside from her, the profile of the new candidates picked by Casado is not very high. It's clear the PP leader wants a loyal and ideologically homogeneous parliamentary group that doesn't create problems, particularly when electoral results are expected to be bad. A right-wing majority in general elections could save Casado's face, as it happened to Juan Manuel Moreno in Andalusia.

On the other hand Pedro Sánchez is facing a relative opposition from Susana Díaz and other regional 'barons'' in the compilation of the PSOE lists. The Andalusia and Aragon branches are negotiating the lists around the clock with the federal PSOE. Four cabinet members will top provincial lists in Andalusia. There is some conflict in Seville, where the top candidate will be Finance minister María Jesús Montero. Pedro Sánchez wants to place two members of the federal executive loyal to him in the positions 2 and 4: the delegate of the government in Andalusia Alfonso Díaz de Celis and adviser in La Moncloa Francisco Salazar. Given the 'zipper list' system, these nominations would displace a Susana Díaz henchman called Antonio Paradas to the 6th position with very little chances of being elected. Pradas played a starring role in the ousting of Pedro Sánchez from the PSOE leadership, so he is not loved by the PM. The PSOE's federal commission has veto power in the compilation of electoral lists.

Podemos is facing problems in Galicia, where the coalition of the 2015 and 2016 general elections is broken. En Marea will run in its own as a separate party, while the nationalist party Anova decided not to contest the general elections. Deprived of its nationalist partners, Podemos will ally with IU and Equo (presumably under the Unidas Podemos banner). En Marea was founded in November 2015 as a coalition incorporating Podemos, Anova, IU and some municipal alliances (Marea Atlántica, Compostela Oberta and Ferrol en Común) that succeed in the May 2015 elections. The election of a new party leadership in late 2018 led to a split between the supporters of leader Luis Villares and the allied parties (Podemos, Anova, IU). The faction supporting Villares seeks the complete independence of the organization, in order to create a separate parliamentary group in the Spanish Congress. Currently the En Marea deputies are ascribed to the UP parliamentary group (4 out of 5 members voted to pass the 2019 budget and 1 voted against).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 17, 2019, 07:46:20 AM
A Catalan pro-independence march took place yesterday in Madrid. Attendance figures vary depending on sources: the police says 18k, the organizers 120k and El País mewspaper estimates 55k. The most important thing is that people marched peacefully and the police forces of the oppressive Spanish state prevented incidents with far-right elements. Actually the people of Madrid is quite friendly and hospitable and treated well the Catalans.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/16/madrid-braces-for-major-catalan-independence-march

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Tens of thousands of Catalan independence supporters have marched through central Madrid in protest at the trial of 12 separatist leaders who helped organise the failed bid for independence from Spain in 2017 and to renew their call for a vote on secession.

The demonstration was organised by two powerful civil society groups, the Catalan National Assembly (ANC) and Òmnium Cultural, around the slogan: “Self-determination is not a crime. Democracy is about deciding.”

Here's a sample of the Vox campaign in WhatsApp. The far-right party launched a successful campaign in social networks for the Andalusian elections, targeting particular market niches such as hunters, bullfight lovers, participants in Holy Week processions (cofrades), angry fathers in divorce process...

"Facing with those who only offer fear, the #EspañaViva will show once again that it is not afraid of anything or anyone

On April 28 make history with your vote

This video has to be seen all over Spain! Resend to all your contacts and spread it in your groups of friends and family"

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Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 19, 2019, 05:29:40 AM
Catalan premier Quim Torra gets 24 hours to remove separatist symbols from public buildings

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/19/inenglish/1552982328_757950.html

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Spanish election officials have given Catalan premier Quim Torra another 24 hours to remove pro-independence symbols from all public buildings owned or run by the regional government.

A week ago, the Central Electoral Board (JEC) reminded the Catalan government that public authorities have the legal obligation to preserve political neutrality ahead of the local, regional, general and European elections coming up in April and May.

The move chiefly affects public buildings displaying yellow ribbons, used to show support for separatist leaders standing trial for rebellion, and esteladas, the unofficial flags used by supporters of Catalan independence.

The body that monitors elections in Spain has asked the government delegate in Catalonia, Teresa Cunillera, to check that these instructions are followed, and warned Torra that failure to do so could have administrative and criminal consequences.

The JEC rejected Torra’s arguments that “the estelada flag is a symbol that represents a desire for freedom and makes a democratic, legitimate, legal and non-violent claim.”

Election officials noted that these symbols may indeed symbolize “the aspirations of one part of Catalan society, but not all of it. It is a legitimate symbol that may be used by political groups in their campaigning, but not by public powers, at least not during election periods, as they have an obligation to maintain rigorous political neutrality as per Article 50.2 of the Electoral Regime Law (LOREG).”

Vox leader Santiago Abascal is disappeared fom public forum. This absence is deliberate and is aimed to prevent the candidate's image is eroded. The lack of visibility of the Vox leader contrasts sharply with the feverish activity of the PP leader. Actually the message of Vox is being conveniently amplified by Pablo Casado and it's for free. A prominent Vox member called Iván Espinosa de los Monteros suggested in recent statements that separatist and Marxist parties should be banned. Vox is recruiting as candidates a series of retired generals, as well as former PP members from the radical wing such as former deputy Gil Lázaro.

WhatsApp is very popular in Spain and parties like PP and Vox are turning to it in order to reach a wider audience

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/18/inenglish/1552900378_672737.html

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During the run-up to the last general election in Spain, political parties used Facebook, Twitter and Instagram to spread their messages. This year, with a snap general election called for April 28 and local, regional and European elections set for May 26, it appears they are turning to WhatsApp, the most popular social network in Spain (...)

Recruiting former generals and hyperactivity in social networks, while avoiding the public exposition of the candidates, are common points between the Vox and the Bolsonaro campaigns



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on March 19, 2019, 06:21:11 AM
To go into more detail about the Vox candidates, they've already presented a handful of candidates for Congress.

First of all, the more "normal" candidates. Their top 3 for Madrid seems to be:

1. Santiago Abascal (Party leader and candidate for PM)
2. Javier Ortega Smith (secretary general)
3. Ivan Espionsa de los Monteros (vicesecretary of international relations of the party)

Other candidates include:

-Ignacio Gil Lázaro for Valencia (former PP congressman)
-3 retired generals for Alicante, Castellón and Cádiz.
-Writer Jose María Marco for Senate in Madrid

Not sure when was the last time there were former military members in Congress. Podemos ran Julio Rodríguez (another retired general) last time, but he didn't get a seat.

Last time there was a military minister was all the way back in 1981 with Manuel Gutiérrez Mellado, Deputy Prime Minister (and minister of defense) under Adolfo Suárez.

Worth noting that one of the 3 Vox generals (the one for Cádiz) signed a manifesto publicly defending the figure of Franco and claiming the 1936 coup was justified. Definitely scary stuff that looks out of the 1970s at best.

https://www.canarias7.es/nacional/vox-desvela-sus-primeros-candidatos-para-el-28a-NA6828294
https://elpais.com/politica/2019/03/17/actualidad/1552842527_993443.html

My guesses for other prominent figures of Vox:

-Rocío Monasterio for some sort of Madrid position (either mayor or regional parliament)
-Ignacio Garriga (the infamous "Vox black person", who is half black from Equatorial Guinea) for some sort of Barcelona position (probably Congress). Could see him running for mayor instead though
-Jose Antonio Ortega Lara (high profile ETA victim) either for Congress in Burgos or for regional parliament in Castille-Leon.

However, this all pales in comaprison to Vox's most colourful candidate so far. Fernando Paz, candidate for Congress in Albacete. He has apparently compared homosexuality with a disease, repeatedly praised francoism and denied the Holocaust. He has also taken part in meetings of neonazi parties like Alianza Nacional or Falange.

https://www.ultimahora.es/noticias/nacional/2019/03/19/1066029/candidato-vox-homofobo-negacionista-del-holocausto.html
https://www.larazon.es/espana/fernando-paz-el-polemico-candidato-de-vox-que-ve-la-homosexualidad-como-una-enfermedad-HM22485165

I imagine he will be purged from the party (but not the Francoist general). But still this definitely can't be helping Vox.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 19, 2019, 05:26:19 PM
However, this all pales in comaprison to Vox's most colourful candidate so far. Fernando Paz, candidate for Congress in Albacete. He has apparently compared homosexuality with a disease, repeatedly praised francoism and denied the Holocaust. He has also taken part in meetings of neonazi parties like Alianza Nacional or Falange.

I imagine he will be purged from the party (but not the Francoist general). But still this definitely can't be helping Vox.

This Fernando Paz is indeed very "colorful". I'm somewhat skeptical in what regards your last assumption. I'm pretty sure the Vox folks were fully aware of his "controversial opinions". This guy is not only well known in far right circles, he has intervened in talk shows like El Gato al Agua defending Billy El Niño ("Billy The Kid" a renowned torturer of the Franco's police). My impression is that Vox is deliberately promoting this kind of "politically incorrect" candidates, because they perceive the context is very favourable to be openly and unashamedly extremist. No, I don't think that Vox will purge him. For the sake of precision, Alianza Nacional ("National Alliance") is neo-Nazi, but Falange is... Falangista (or Joseantoniana).

On a more or less related note, there is another allegedly neo-Nazi organization called Hogar Social that now is a political party. Hogar Social began as a sort of charity organization that helps only Spaniards. It gained visibility by occupying some emblematic buildings in Madrid. HS has links with Casa Pound in Italy. Apparently the surge of Vox leaves no room for other far-right party. According to El Confidencial, the dream of the HS leader Melisa Rodríguez is fading

https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/2019-01-07/el-boom-de-vox-y-el-ocaso-de-hogar-social-madrid-el-lento-final-del-sueno-de-melisa_1741750/

The lovely Vox Gang (left to right): Iván Espinosa de los Monteros, Santiago Abascal, Javier Ortega Smith* and Rocío Monasterio

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The statements by Iván Espinosa de los Monteros are very interesting. He regards ïñigo Errejón as "one of the most dangerous foes". He says that behind his nice boy face the Podemos founder hides an "anti-Spanish and radical leftist bile extremely dangerous for our country". He also regards Cs leader Albert Rivera as a leftist that attracts rightwing voters beguiled by his clean and shaved appearance, in contrast to the "dirty" and pony-tailed Pablo Iglesias. He also said something about the "pretty girls" of Cs, likely referring to Inés Arrimadas. He admits having supported PP in the past, but he stopped voting them "as one quits hard drugs". In short: the man is arrogant, contemptuous and sexist. He might not be brilliant from an intellectual point of view, but he is politically incorrect and speaks in direct and forceful sentences ideal for Twitter and WhatsApp. Prestigious journalist Iñaki Gabilondo says that Vox represents the Francoism, something he thought it was left behind. The far-right was always hanging around, but it was hidden and to a great extent contained in the PP That's all in the past, for a number of reasons. Now the genie is out of the bottle: welcome to the Age of Populism.

* Ortega Smith represents the private prosecution in the trial to the Catalan separatist leaders and he is revealing as a pretty incompetent attorney. I would say it's a good thing.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan on March 20, 2019, 10:20:32 AM
Apparently Abascal today was in Warsaw talking with representatives of PiS and Kaczyński himself. It seems they will probably follow the route of FvD and DLF.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on March 23, 2019, 10:40:28 AM
So is the Spanish left realigning, losing its support in various fiefdoms in the south to urban areas and more urban/high cost of living areas?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on March 23, 2019, 11:00:06 AM
So is the Spanish left realigning, losing its support in various fiefdoms in the south to urban areas and more urban/high cost of living areas?

I would say yes and no. The left is definitely losing its support in the southern fiefdoms, but it's not necesarily gaining in urban areas, but instead areas that aren't fully "culturally Spanish/Castillian"

I didn't publish them here, but I've been doing PVI graphs for all Spanish autonomous communities. And one of the maps I made was a 2000-2016 trend map:

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Take the map with a huge amount of caution as I included parties like the Basque PNV or the Catalan CiU/PDECat on the right even if they would never support a PP government (especially not now, in 2000 it was a lot more likely)

Also keep in mind that the results in the African cities and the Canary Islands are distorted by unusually strong performances by GIL (in Ceuta/Melilla) or a quite left wing CC in the Canary Islands (led by Román Rodríguez back then, who is clearly a lefty at least now and even split from his former party)

Still, the PVI evolution is striking. Especially the fact that the South has trended a lot more than the North.

Fun fact I got from my graphs: 2016 was the first time Extremadura voted to the right of the nation since 1979. It also saw the worst results ever for the Spanish left in Andalucia, with a PVI of Left+5 (in 2000 it was at Left+24).

If you wonder why the left lost Andalucia, an important part is its march to the right. Since the current national polling average seems to be around Right+8; it's far from weird that Andalucia flipped.

I could share the full Excel sheet or the graphs if you want.

Still, while the left seems to be losing its old fiefdoms, it isn't winning necesarily in urban areas. I would expect small town places like Castellón or Álava to flip well before Madrid does.

Borrowing Atlas terms, it seems the Spanish left is losing its Andalusian #populists <3 while gaining among Barcelona/Valencia Catalan coastal elitists.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 23, 2019, 11:22:33 AM
Political debate in Spain is not focused on serious issues such as economy, climate change or the future of pensions. These subjects are crucial for the future, but they are too complex to be condensed in a tweet. Instead our leaders prefer launching wars on symbols or foolish proposals, turning the political arena into a circus. Two examples:

Catalan premier Quim Torra is getting everyone tired, including his coalition partners

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/22/inenglish/1553263956_201609.html

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The regional premier of Catalonia, Quim Torra, is facing a criminal prosecution that could see him barred from office over his refusal to remove pro-independence symbols from public buildings ahead of the upcoming national, regional and local elections in Spain.

Spain’s Central Electoral Board (JEC) had instructed the Catalan regional government to take down the signs and symbols from the buildings that it owns or manages. These symbols include yellow ribbons, a sign of support for the pro-independence leaders who were placed in custody ahead of their Supreme Court trial, which is currently ongoing.

orra was given instructions by the JEC to remove the material 11 days ago, and a deadline to do so by Tuesday afternoon. But the hardline separatist leader opted to ignore the order and instead requested a report from the Catalan ombudsman for advice. The Síndic de Greuges, as the ombudsman is known, advised the regional government that it should take down the symbols.

n response, on Thursday Torra changed the banner on the balcony of the Catalan government’s main building. But it was swapped for an identical sign calling for the release of “political prisoners,” the only difference being the use of a white ribbon instead of a yellow one.

On Friday, plainclothes officers from the regional police force, the Mossos d’Esquadra, officially notified the premier’s office of the JEC’s instruction, according to police sources. The Catalan police had been ordered to remove the material themselves before 3pm on Friday. On receiving that notification, Torra gave the order for the material to be removed. Hours later, a new banner went up with the message: “Freedom of opinion and expression.” (...)

Vox leader wants that Spaniards can keep guns at home, alleging they are a "common sense party" that supports the right to self defense. Apparently the rest of parties are not under the influence of the NRA.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/21/inenglish/1553170075_849436.html

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The leader of the Spanish far-right political party Vox, Santiago Abascal, has called for the country’s criminal code and gun regulations to be reformed to make it easier to own a gun and to ensure people who shoot home invaders are not prosecuted by the law, as is the case in the United States.

In an interview with the weapons publication Armas.es last weekend, just days after the deadly shooting at two mosques in New Zealand, Abascal proposed “a radical and urgent change to the law” to allow Spaniards not only “to keep a weapon at home but also to ensure they can use it in situations of real threat to their life without having to face a legal nightmare, prison sentences or even compensation to the families of the criminals who assaulted them.” (...)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 23, 2019, 12:44:41 PM
I think the map in the previous post shows that Podemos (and its allies in Catalonia, Valencia and Galicia) performed strongly in peripheral regions by 2015 and 2016. Now the Podemos alliances in Valencia and Galicia are broken and En Comú Podem is expected to lose support in Catalonia. Back in 2004 and 2008, the PSOE got extraordinary results in Catalonia and the Basque Country, as well gained ground in Galicia and the Islands..  but there was a PP surge in Valencia by the 2008 election. I think the PSOE will make gains in Catalonia,  but it will be miles away from the  2004-2008 marks. I'd say peripheral regions with vernacular languages (particularly Catalonia and the Basque Country) tend to support the Spanish Left in general elections when there's a perceived threat to their identity posed by the Spanish Right. That was the case in the elections won by Zapatero in 2004 and 2008. The Podemos success in Catalonia could be partly motivated by its stance favorable to a referendum on self determination. On the other hand, I think it's likely the crisis in Catalonia will help to continue the rightward trend in Southern Spain. Anyway there is a lot of volatility that makes the next election outcome very uncertain. It'd be better to wait results in order to see the evolution of geographical trends .


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on March 23, 2019, 04:00:17 PM
Thing is, 1 election is an outlier, but several elections make a trend.

Even if you did a hypothetical 2000-2011 map (the only election you did not mention), it wouldn't be terribly different from that one for the most part.

I think the movement in Catalonia and the Basque country is not based on the Spanish left performing better, but instead on a nationalist realignment.

Think about this, in 2000, Batasuna was banned and both EA and ERC were very small compared to PNV and CiU. In 2016, ERC is actually larger than PDECat and Bildu is much larger than the old EA.

While the result of the election is very unclear, I think the geographic trends are very clear and will actually accelerate in 2019. I think there will now be a realignment based on the division between a left wing periphery and a right wing centralist Spain.

Honestly the most striking result for me is not the fact that the periphery is moving left and the center/Castillian Spain is moving right, but the north-south division within Castillian Spain.

Places like Cantabria or La Rioja have barely moved at all while Andalucia has moved right very fast. It's not even that "they were conservative already and they had nowhere to go"; as conservative stronghold Murcia was actually the place that moved the furthest right alongside Andalucia (from Right+11 in 2000 to Right+27 in 2016 for a trend of 16 points)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 23, 2019, 05:14:49 PM
Yesterday I overlooked this. Finally Vox "purged" pseudo-historian Fernando Paz claiming ignorance of his opinions on the Holocaust and homosexuality. According to party sources (a WhatsApp statement made by a certain Manuel Mariscal) Fernando Paz resigned his candidacy. Apparently the reason behind the "purge" is that Vox is trying to establish relations and get economic support from people linked to the right wing of the Republican Party (Iván Espinosa de los Monteros visited the US in previous days) and a candidate supporting the Holocaust denial is not acceptable for them. Also, the Jewish community on Spain showed concern with the candidacy of a person with such lamentable opinions. The size of the Spanish Jewish community is small (around 40k), but it has a good relationship with the country's political and economic right.

However Vox recruited Jorge Cutillas to run for La Rioja. Cutillas is a candidate with good fascist credentials, a former  member of Fuerza Nueva (FN) that later joined other far right parties. Cutillas was accused of the stoning, alongside other FN members, of some buses with 250 Basque schoolchildren that were visiting Madrid in 1982. Cutillas claims that year he was in Ceuta doing military service.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on March 23, 2019, 06:37:10 PM
Also, since I was speaking about Spanish electoral geography, I guess I should mention that GAD3 and ABC published a poll where they split their results by province.

They claim they will release full results by autnonomous community for some of them tomorrow or on Monday.

But today they released their poll with maps

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The map both confirms and dismisses some of the claims I've made about trends. The blocks map clearly shows how Catalonia and the Basque Country are strong left wing areas (then again not surprising as PP has always had problems there). Andalucia is split. It's still a very left wing area even if it's trending right. I guess it's still not enough to get anything other than a tie out of it.

Surprisingly, the Canary Islands vote left! They have always been a right wing stronghold or at worst a tossup. So to see them going left is surprising to say the least.

As for the party map, it's a PSOE landslide. They even win in several places that weren't even won by Felipe González in 1982 (Lugo and Pontevedra in Galicia and Soria in Castille-Leon) despite a much bigger popular vote gap (48-27 compared to what, 31-21 at best here?). Of course back then there was a more marked 2 party system, sort of.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 23, 2019, 07:40:18 PM
Thing is, 1 election is an outlier, but several elections make a trend.

Even if you did a hypothetical 2000-2011 map (the only election you did not mention), it wouldn't be terribly different from that one for the most part.

I think the movement in Catalonia and the Basque country is not based on the Spanish left performing better, but instead on a nationalist realignment.

It's true that several elections make a trend, but the fact is that Podemos and En Comú Podem won the last two general general elections in the Basque Country and Catalonia while PP and PSOE fell sharply. On the other hand, the PSOE got a very strong result in the 2008 elections there. In both cases the Spanish Left got some "borrowed" nationalist votes, a tactical support that made possible in 2008 the best historical results for the PSOE in the Basque Country and the second best (after 1982) in Catalonia. The generic left (Spanish and peripheral nationalist) didn't perform well in 2000 and 2011, with the exception of the surge of Amaiur in the Basque Country and Navarre after ETA ceased terrorist activity. In what regards the realignment of the nationalist vote, the situations in Catalonia and the Basque Country are different. While in last general elections ERC surpassed the heirs of Convergència in Catalonia, the PNV remains as the hegemonic force of the Basque nationalism despite the surge of Amaiur (later EH Bildu).

Catalonia

2000: PSC-PSOE 34.4, CiU 28.8, PP  22.8, ERC 5.6, ICV 3.5, EUiA 2.2 (L 45.7 / R 51.6)
2004:  PSC-PSOE 39.4, CiU 20.8, ERC 15.9, PP 15.6, ICV-EUiA 5.6 (L 60.9 / R 36.4)
The high unpopularity of the second Aznar adminsitration in Catalonia damaged CiU tangentially and contributed to the spectacular increase of ERC from 1 to 8 seats in Congress.
2008: PSC-PSOE 45.4, CiU 20.9, PP 16.4, ERC 7.8, ICV-EUiA 4.9, Cs 0.7 (L 58.1 / R 38.5)
2011: CiU 29.3, PSC-PSOE 26.6, PP 20.7, ICV-EUiA 8.1, ERC 7, UPyD 1.1 (L 41.7 / R 51.1)
It was the first time since 1977 that PSC-PSOE was not coming in first place
2015: ECP 24.7, ERC 16, PSC-PSOE 15.7, DiL 15.1, Cs 13, PP 11.1 (L 56.4 / R 39.2)
The Podemos alliance with ICV, EUiA and BComú wins the first general elections held after the beginning of the drive to independence in 2012.
2016: ECP 24.5, ERC 18.1, PSC-PSOE 16.1, CDC 13.9, PP 13.3, Cs 10.9 (L 58.7 / R 41.1)

Basque Country

2000: EAJ-PNV 30.4, PP 28.2, PSOE 23.3, EA 7.5, IU 5.4 (L 36.2 / R 58.6)
2004: EAJ-PNV 33.7, PSOE 27.2, PP 18.9, IU 8.2, EA 6.5, Aralar 3-1 (L 45 / R 52.6)
2008: PSOE 38.4, EAJ-PNV 27.1, PP 18.5, IU 4.5, EA 4.5, Aralar 2.6, UPyD 0.9 (L 50 / R 46.5)
2011: EAJ-PNV 27.4, Amaiur 24.1, PSOE 21.5, PP 17.8, IU 3.7, UPyD 1.8 (L 49.3 / R 47)
Amaiur incorporates Sortu (heirs of Batasuna), EA and Aralar. The ban of Batasuna introduced a factor of distortion in previous election results. Notice that PP didn't grow in its best election nationwide.
2015: Podemos 25.9, EAJ-PNV 24.7, EH Bildu 15, PSOE 13, PP 11.6, Cs 4.1, IU 2.9 (L 56.8 / R 40.4) Podemos wins at the expense of the PSOE and EH Bildu
2016: UP 29, EAJ-PNV 24.9, POE 14.2, EH Bildu 13.3, PP 12.8, Cs 3.5 (L 56.5 / R 37.5)

PSOE winning Barcelona and Tarragona (according to GAD3) means that socialists might win  next general elections in Catalonia. Let's see what say the polls tomorrow...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 23, 2019, 09:59:10 PM
40dB poll for El País with a seat projection not favourable for the right-wing bloc

()

If we have to believe what pollsters are telling us, Vox stopped its increase and is standing somewhere between 10% and 12%. However Vox is getting all the media attention and is the most popular party in social networks replacing Podemos. Is the polling industry aware of under the radar movements?

Podemos leader came back tonight in a rally that took place in Madrid. The message conveyed by Pablo Iglesias was, in my biased opinion, contradictory and unconvincing. He intended to be self-critical admitting that internal conflict has been shameful and damaging for Podemos, but on the other hand he continues hurling darts against rivals: "we made mistakes but we have never been on the wrong side" Iglesias made some recriminations to Madrid Mayor Manuela Carmena and demanded her to reveal which party she will support. Carmena said in a recent interview that she voted Podemos in past elections and has decided her vote in the next, but she doesn't want to say it publicly (it wouldn't be surprising that she intends to vote for the PSOE, but she is an independent after all). Carmena's ally and Iglesias' rival Ïñigo Errejón said that he will vote Podemos again, but stated there's too much sectarianism in the party and he feels liberated in his new platform for regional elections. Iglesias attacked the "Trio of Colón" (PP,Cs and Vox) and assumed that Podemos will be part of a coalition with the PSOE if they have the numbers, although hr doesn't rule out a deal between PSOE and Cs despite the promises of Albert Rivera. The Podemos leader states that he doesn't believe the polls, but I'd say there was some depression floating in the air and this is going to be a very difficult campaign for him. Thousands of people attended the rally, but sources say the square next to the Reina Sofía Museum was not filled completely. There are many valuable persons that are no longer in Podemos and they are missed.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 24, 2019, 12:50:51 PM
The Sonadxe poll for La Voz de Galicia predicts that Vox will come in thir place. The right-wing bloc would win 172 seats, 4 seats short of majority. The Left would win 148 seats, 28 short of a majority. The previous 40dB poll gives a chance for a PSOE-Cs majority, but according to the seat projection in this poll reds and oranges would be 19 seats short.

PSOE 26.9% (113 seats), PP 189% (78), VOX 13.9% (50), Cs 13.8% (44), UP 13.4% (35), Others 7.9% (30)

https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/elecciones/2019/03/23/vox-tercera-izquierda-baja-derecha-suma/00031553370410907718658.htm

.El Caudillo's long shadow

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/23/franco-ghost-exhumatiob-spain-elections-far-right-vox-party

Quote
It is little wonder, then, that these are bittersweet times for those who suffered under Franco and who have long yearned to see him exhumed from the Valley of the Fallen.

The activist, politician and writer Lidia Falcón, now 83, was arrested seven times under Franco and tortured by his thugs (...)

Falcón snorts at any parallels between Franco’s uprising in 1936 and the re-emergence of the far-right after a 40-year absence. But in Vox, “who have sprung up here overnight, like a mushroom in the woods”, she discerns a familiar kind of politics. “They’re the same people, except today it’s their grandchildren,” says Falcón. “A lot of fascists are rising to the surface now.”

She is not alone in her appraisal. In a recent interview, Iñaki Gabilondo, perhaps Spain’s best-known journalist, was asked how he would characterise Vox. “To me, it’s Francoism,” he told eldiario.es. “I was 33 when Franco died. That means I’d lived for 33 years … with Franco in my head, my heart, my world and my soul.”

Vox’s “ultra-Spanish, ultra-centralised thinking, based on fatherland, God, Spain and old values”, he added, was Francoism pure and simple. “It’s something totally recognisable because I lived it,” he said. “It’s exactly what we wanted to get rid of.”


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 25, 2019, 10:30:23 AM
Finally ABC released the GAD3 poll. Narciso Michavila has good news for PSOE, bad for Cs and terrible for Podemos

()

The Left (PSOE+UP) gets a combined 42.4% winning 158-161 seats.

The Right (PP, Cs and Vox) gets a combined 46.5%, winning 155-164 seats. The coalition Navarra Suma (UPN, PP and Cs) would win 2 additional seats, but the rightwing bloc would be still short of a majority.

A PSOE-Cs alliance would be 4 to 8 seats short of a majority

Pedro Sánchez would need the support of ERC to win the investiture, alongside the support of UP, PNV and Compromís. With these numbers, the support of JxCAT (CDC) would not be necessary.

Other investiture options might involve someone's abstention in a second vote.  First investiture vote requires absolute majority (176 votes). Second investiture votes requires simple majority (more votes in favour than against).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: crals on March 25, 2019, 11:02:37 AM
Why are CC on the right? Couldn't they support a PSOE government?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 25, 2019, 12:03:24 PM
Why are CC on the right? Couldn't they support a PSOE government?

I wouldn't trust the graphs illustrating opinion polls very much. The last one is not good...

CC is a regionalist party of the Canary Islands. Ideologically the Canary Coalition is on the centre-right, although above all things it's a regional interests party. CC has governed the Canary Islands since 1991: most of the times in coalition with the PP, but occasionally in coalition with the PSOE or forming minority governments. CC made a coalition agreement with the PSOE after the 2015 regional elections, but currently governs in minority with the confidence and supply of the PP and the ASG (PSOE split in La Gomera island). In Madrid CC votes occasionally with PP and PSOE, usually depending on regional interests. Currently the relationship between PSOE and CC (central and regional governments) is not good. The CC deputy Ana Oramas abstained in the no confidence motion against Mariano Rajoy, but initially it was going to vote alongside PP and Cs. Oramas is regarded a good parliamentarian, but her party's support has dropped over the years. CC won 4 seats Congress at its peak, but currently it holds a single member for Santa Cruz de Tenerife.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on March 25, 2019, 05:12:54 PM
Why are CC on the right? Couldn't they support a PSOE government?

Could? Absolutely, but it's not the most likely thing in the world.

Relations between CC and PSOE are quite bad since CC kicked out PSOE of the regional government in 2016 (since then CC has led a weak minority government in the islands). CC also dislikes UP a lot. However, CC could support a PSOE government, especially a PSOE-Cs one, but not a PSOE-UP one.

On the other hand, I don't think CC would prop up a PP-Cs-Vox government either.

CC is nominally centrist, but clearly much closer to the right than the left. Still their placement is incorrect on the graph. If we were doing a graph based on ideology, my proposal would be:

Bildu-ERC-UP-PSOE-PDECat-PNV-CC-Cs-Navarra Suma-PP-Vox


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on March 27, 2019, 10:56:55 AM
Today the preliminary lists for the General election got published. Some of these will drop out by the 2nd of April when election authorities determine whether the required paperwork is in order or not.

I won't cover all 52 provinces, but here is the full list as published by the election authorities:

https://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2019/03/27/pdfs/BOE-A-2019-4492.pdf

For my province of Las Palmas (which is also Velasco's province I think?) the lists we have are (as per usual, lists with a chance at getting seats nationally or just getting an ok result are coloured while minor lists are in black):

Canarian Coalition-Canarian Nationalist Party (CC-PNC)
Citizens-Party of the citizenry (Cs)
New Canaries (NCa)
Spanish Socialist Workers' Party (PSOE)
Canaries Now-Nationalist Alternative and Popular Unity (AHORA CANARIAS)
Communist Party of the Canarian People (PCPE)
Animalist Party against the Mistreatment of Animals (PACMA)
For a Fairer World (PUM+J)
United We Can (Podemos-IU-Equo)
People's Party (PP)
Humanist Party (PH)
Zero Cuts-Green Group (Recortes Cero-GV)
Vox (Vox)

So 13 lists in total, albeit only 5 for fringe parties and of those 5, 3 are the kind of party that has a small, but constant niche (Canarian Secessionists, Tankie Communists and the Zero Cuts people) That seems kind of low, with only 2 truly fringe parties (PH and PUM+J). Kind of happy that my signature for the Humanist party didn't go unnoticed though :P


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 27, 2019, 01:12:06 PM
1 month an 1 day for the election and Albert Rivera is proposing a coalition agreement to Pablo Casado, overlooking both parties would need the Vox support. This offer sounds like Rivera is admitting that Cs is going to lose the battle for the hegemony of the Spanish Right. Casado replied that it sounds like a good idea if the Right has the numbers, but maybe it's too late to ensure a rightwing majority in Senate (Cs rejected a PP offer on a joint list). Albert Rivera is nervous because of the bad polling. José Antonio Zarzalejos, who is a former editor of the ABC newspaper and one of the smartest conservative analysts in Spain, warns that Vox is destroying the democratic Right (conservative PP and liberal Cs). In a recent interview to El País in Rome Steve Bannon says that PP and Cs are already speaking the Vox language: this is what the apostle of national-populism calls "take a product to market".

IU membership in Madrid voted against a coalition with Podemos for regional elections, against the wishes of national leader Alberto Garzón. IU Madrid will run with Anticapitalistas (far-left faction of Podemos) in a list called Madrid En Pie, so the alternative left will be splitted in three (Podemos, Más Madrid and the new list). Possibly this ensures a rightwing majority in the regional assembly. "Narcissism of the Small Differences". Headache. 

For my province of Las Palmas (which is also Velasco's province I think?) the lists we have are (as per usual, lists with a chance at getting seats nationally or just getting an ok result are coloured while minor lists are in black):

Canarian Coalition-Canarian Nationalist Party (CC-PNC)
Citizens-Party of the citizenry (Cs)
New Canaries (NCa)
Spanish Socialist Workers' Party (PSOE)
Canaries Now-Nationalist Alternative and Popular Unity (AHORA CANARIAS)
Communist Party of the Canarian People (PCPE)
Animalist Party against the Mistreatment of Animals (PACMA)
For a Fairer World (PUM+J)
United We Can (Podemos-IU-Equo)
People's Party (PP)
Humanist Party (PH)
Zero Cuts-Green Group (Recortes Cero-GV)
Vox (Vox)

Yes, I'm resident Las Palmas province. The PCPE folks are the greatest, IMO: they never fail.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 28, 2019, 12:22:20 PM
José Manuel Villarejo is a retired police superintendent imprisoned since November 2017, charged as the alleged leader of a police mafia. Mr Villarejo admitted today before the National High Court that he had access to the contents of a cellular phone belonging to an aide of Podemos leader Pablo Iglesias. According to the defence lawyer, the corrupt policeman denied any involvement in the theft of said phone that contained personal and political information of Pablo Iglesias. Mr Villarejo tried to Justify having information concerning Pablo Iglesias (it was found in a pen drive when Villarejo was arrested) alleging there was an ongoing police investigation.

By 2016 and shortly after the Podemos irruption in Congress with 69 seats, that is to say in the heyday of the Pablo Iglesias party, the online newspaper OK Diario released a fake news on an alleged police report that said the Iran government financed Pablo Iglesias and people close to him. This writing was called the PISA report (PISA means Pablo Iglesias Limited Company) and its authorship is attributed to a so-called patriotic brigade within the police, during the term of Rajoy's Interior minister Jorge Fernández Díaz, whose alleged leader was Mr Villarejo. Said reports were dismissed by a judge in June 2016, ruling they lacked evidence. The final goal of these reports was apparently to bring Podemos down and prevent a negotiation between the Pablo Iglesias party and the PSOE led by Pedro Sánchez.

Yesterday Pablo Iglesias testified before the Court as injured party. He could not reveal details due to sub iudice rule, but stated his commitment to the truth, justice, institutions, dirt cleansing, etcetera


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on March 28, 2019, 12:40:10 PM
José Manuel Villarejo is a retired police superintendent imprisoned since November 2017, charged as the alleged leader of a police mafia. Mr Villarejo admitted today before the National High Court that he had access to the contents of a cellular phone belonging to an aide of Podemos leader Pablo Iglesias. According to the defence lawyer, the corrupt policeman denied any involvement in the theft of said cellar phone that contained personal and political information of Pablo Iglesias. Mr Villarejo tried to Justify having information concerning Pablo Iglesias (it was found in a pen drive when he was arrested) alleging there was an ongoing police investigation.

By 2016 and shortly after the Podemos irruption in Congress with 69 seats, that is to say in the heyday of the Pablo Iglesias party, the online newspaper OK Diario released a fake news on an alleged police report that said the Iran government financed Pablo Iglesias and people close to him. This writing was called the PISA report (PISA means Pablo Iglesias Limited Company) and its authorship is attributed to a so-called patriotic brigade within the police during the term of Rajoy's Interior minister Jorge Fernández Díaz whose alleged leader was Mr Villarejo. Said reports were dismissed by a judge in June 2016, ruling they lacked evidence. The final goal of these reports was apparently to bring Podemos down and prevent a negotiation between the Pablo Iglesias party and the PSOE led by Pedro Sánchez.

Yesterday Pablo Iglesias testified before the Court as injured party. He could not reveal details due to sub iudice rule, but stated his commitment with the truth, justice, institutions, dirt cleansing, etcetera

Regarding Villarejo, I personally think hes best recient report has been the fact that he claims that Morocco and France's secret service did the Madrid bombings.

I have to say, that's a nice change of pace from the usual right wing "ETA did the Madrid bombings and PSOE hid the evidence" conspiracy.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 29, 2019, 12:36:07 AM
Regarding Villarejo, I personally think hes best recient report has been the fact that he claims that Morocco and France's secret service did the Madrid bombings.

I have to say, that's a nice change of pace from the usual right wing "ETA did the Madrid bombings and PSOE hid the evidence" conspiracy.

The claim on an alleged involvement of French and Moroccan intelligence (in partnership with ETA) is far from being new. Back in the day people like Federico Jiménez Losantos was airing that nonsense.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Zinneke on March 29, 2019, 04:30:43 AM
...what motive did they suggest the French and Morroccan spooks had in blowing up 200 civilians?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on March 29, 2019, 04:57:34 AM
...what motive did they suggest the French and Morroccan spooks had in blowing up 200 civilians?

The conspiracy tends to think that when Aznar sided with the US, UK and Poland over France and Germany when the Irak war and in other EU related votes (like the Nice treaty), France was extremely angry and wanted some sort of revenge.

Similarly, Morocco wanted revenge for the "Perejil island war". So they conspirated together to create a terrorist attack on Madrid.

The conspiracy also claims that another motive for the attack was that it would cause a change in government, with PSOE being much more friendly to French and Moroccan interests than PP.

Does it make sense? In my opinion no, but still it's a common conspiracy theory. In fact when Villarejo outed that, Vox and PP started with "11-M truthism", claiming that we don't know the full truth.

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/03/11/actualidad/1552335784_713196.html

https://www.twitter.com/Santi_ABASCAL/status/1105000639543869440

Quote from: Santiago Abascal
15 years later we still want to know the truth about the 11-M attacks, which caused 192 deaths and a planned government change. We do not forget!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 30, 2019, 01:56:37 PM
New set of polls

Metroscopia / 20 minutos

PSOE 28.7 (116-126), PP 19 (72-78), Cs 16.3 (53-62), UP 14 (35-41), VOX 11.7 (30-37), Others 11.3 (29-31)*

* ERC 14, CDC (JxCAT) 6, PNV 6, EH Bildu 2-4, CC 1

IMOP 7 El Confidencial

PSOE 31 (133), PP 20 (77), Cs 14.9 (53), UP 11.9 (28), VOX 10.1 (27), ERC 3.3 (14), JxCAT 1.3 (4), EAJ-PNV 1.2 (6), EH Bildu 1.1 (3), Compromis 0.7 (3), PACMA 2 (1), CC ? (1)

Celeste-Tel / eldiario.es

PSOE 27 (110-115). PP 22.9 (93-95), Cs 16.7 (56-59), UP 12.1 (31-33), VOX 9.1 (18-20), ERC 2.8 (11-13), JxCAT 1.7 (5), EAJ-PNV 1.2 (6), Compromis 1.6 (4-5), EH Bildu 0.7 (2-3), En Marea 0.7 (3), N+ 0.5 (1), CC 0.3 (1)

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on March 30, 2019, 02:33:22 PM
After this, I don't think there's any pollster showing a right wing majority in terms of seats. Although all but one pollster do show a right wing victory in the popular vote, generally around 6 points or so.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on March 30, 2019, 04:19:51 PM
There was a Vox rally in Barcelona this morning, with the presence of the leading figures of the far-right party. Attendance was estimated at 15k by organizers and only 5k by the local police. Pro-independence and far-left groups, namely the CDR (Committeesfor the Defense of the Republic), called a counter demonstration in protest. The Mossos de Esquadra (regional police) prevented that Vox supporters and pro-independence groups clashed. According to La Vanguardia at least 7 people were arrested in the incidents between the Mossos and the pro-independence protesters. Vox advocates the suppression of regional police, as well as the suspension of regional autonomy, the ban of pro-independence parties and so on.

The most relevant political issue right now concerns the revelations on the dirty war launched by the Villarejo's patriotic brigade against Podemos

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/29/inenglish/1553846581_687820.html

Quote
In April 2016, with the Popular Party (PP) in power, high-ranking officials at the Spanish Interior Ministry granted an extraordinary residency permit to a Venezuelan national who had been cooperating as a police informer in a political dirty war against the left-wing Podemos party.

This warfare is attributed to the so-called “Patriotic Brigade,” a group of officers who allegedly engaged in irregular activities during Mariano Rajoy’s first term in office in an attempt to damage the reputation of the PP’s political rivals (...)

Some bizarre statements made by the son of former PM Adolfo Suárez, who runs in the second position of the PP list for Madrid, raised controversy. Apparently Neanderthals were pro-choice

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/29/inenglish/1553847183_963327.html

Quote
Spain’s conservative Popular Party (PP) is once again in hot water after its new congressional candidate made a series of incendiary claims about abortion. Adolfo Súarez Illana – who is the eldest son of Spain’s first democratically elected prime minister after the 1975 transition to democracy, Adolfo Suárez Gonález – stated on Thursday that “abortion has been around for 100,000 years. The Neanderthals also used it. But they waited for the baby to be born and cut off its head." (...)

This article about the animal welfare PACMA might be interesting for someone

https://www.politico.eu/article/pacma-animal-rights-party-spain-rise-of-the-spanish-vegans/

Quote
Green parties have been gaining ground in countries such as Germany and the Netherlands, but Spain's environmentalists have struggled to attract voters. That's changing, thanks to a radical animal rights party.

Pacma — which promotes veganism to fight global warming and wants to ban zoos, circuses, bullfighting, fishing and hunting — is predicted to send one or two MEPs to the European Parliament in May, joining a small club of animal rights parties with a representative in the European assembly (the Dutch Party for the Animals and Germany's Human Environment Animal Protection.)

But while in those countries and elsewhere, traditional green parties are far more popular than animal rights groups, Pacma is on track to become the closest thing Spain has to a viable environmentalist party (...)

After this, I don't think there's any pollster showing a right wing majority in terms of seats. Although all but one pollster do show a right wing victory in the popular vote, generally around 6 points or so.

I think NC Report for La Razón still does. Anyway Francisco Marhuenda is a PP hack.

Given that there's one month left and that's a very long time in modern politics, nothing can be taken for granted. I think the main risk for the PSOE is that Podemos collapses completely, to the point that socialists get isolated in parliament. In case UP resists in the 11-12 pp soil, PSOE is around 30 pp and the right-wing vote remains fragmented, everyhing  is going reasonably well for Sánchez. The worst thing that socialists could do is getting too confident, though


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 02, 2019, 10:03:14 AM
The aquienvoto test for who you should vote for has been updated with questions and parties for 2019.

www.aquienvoto.org

Here are my results:

ERC: 64%
PSOE: 62%
UP: 62%
Bildu: 60%
PNV: 59%
PDECat: 55%
Cs: 49%
PP: 43%
Vox: 30%

Honestly very surprised to see ERC on top and UP tied with PSOE. Everything else as expected though.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 02, 2019, 02:01:16 PM
UP 84%
PSOE 79%
EH Bildu 78%
ERC 70%
EAJ-PNV 56%
PDeCAT 54%
Cs 44%
PP 28%
VOX 17%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: bigic on April 02, 2019, 02:15:29 PM
My results:
EAJ-PNV 67,39%
Ciudadanos 58,95%
PDeCAT 56,99%
PSOE 51,58%
ERC 47,37%
PP 45,92%
EH Bildu 45,26%
UP 43,16%
Vox 30,77%

My "spider" compared to EAJ-PNV's
()

Compared to that of Ciudadanos
()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: seb_pard on April 03, 2019, 11:52:50 AM
UP 76%
EH Bildu 74%
ERC 73%
PSOE 71%
PDeCAT 65%
EAJ-PNV 62%
Cs 48%
PP 28%
Vox 21%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jeron on April 03, 2019, 12:32:36 PM
PSOE 68%
C 66%
UP 55%
PP 43%
Vox 34%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Skye on April 03, 2019, 01:09:18 PM
PP: 68
C's: 60
VOX: 56
PSOE: 48
Unidos Podemos: 32

Can't vote anyway, so...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 03, 2019, 01:11:00 PM
Vox 71%
PP 68%
Cs 52%
PSOE 47%
EAJ-PNV 40%
PDeCat 37%
ERC 33%
UP 30%
EH Bildu 22%

Clearly most aligned with Vox and PP. Differences: Vox is more economically right-wing and more opposed to decentralization/autonomy for separatists than I am (I don't think rolling back already existing types of decentralization will be conducive in any way), which is no surprise. On the other hand I'm apparently even more pro-law and order than them.

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: parochial boy on April 03, 2019, 01:40:41 PM
()

didn't realise I was such a law and order hawk :\


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 03, 2019, 05:37:07 PM
I didn't realise I was such a law and order hawk :\

Your "spider web" web is very similar to mine when I took the test yesterday.  I don't think I'm a hawkish person, but I know there's a difference between liberty and libertarianism ;)

I have many coincidences with EH Bildu and ERC, regardless the national question. I'm not hawkish on issues like the implementation of article 155 in Catalonia, which I strongly oppose because I consider undesirable a permanent state of emergency. I recall I had a 100% match with EH Bildu on environmental policies, but only 40% pn decentralization. Maybe the reason is that I voted "neutral" on the indy ref question, mostly because of boredom and bad precedents (Brexit, Colombia plebiscite)  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: President Punxsutawney Phil on April 03, 2019, 06:45:01 PM
()
PSOE 70%
Cs 59%
Podemos 56%
PP 53%
PDeCat 53%
ERC 51%
EH Bildu 50%
EAJ-PNV 48%
VOX 44%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Harlow on April 03, 2019, 11:30:39 PM
EH Bildu 82%
Unidos Podemos 81%
ERC 74%
PSOE 64%
PNV 61%
PDeCAT 58%
Ciudadanos 51%
PP 24%
Vox 17%

Not sure how much got lost in translation, but this seems accurate.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Dereich on April 04, 2019, 02:27:45 AM
PP 63%
EAJ-PNV 62.7%
PDeCat 58%
ERC 53%
Ciudadanos 52%
PSOE 51%
Podemos 48%
EH Bildu 46%
Vox 37%

What a strange result. I didn't think I'd still end up with PP with all my decentralist answers.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: generalpepito on April 04, 2019, 03:11:51 PM
EAJ PNV: 54%
Ciudadanos: 52,3%
PSOE: 50%
PP: 47,8%
Vox: 46,4%
ERC: 45,3%
PDeCat: 44,8%
UP: 42,3%
EH Bildu: 41,4%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 05, 2019, 06:21:04 AM
CEO* poll

Spanish genereal election in Catalonia (2016 seats in brackets):

ERC 24.5% 15 seats (9)
PSC-PSOE 23.7% 11-13 seats (7)
ECP 15.4% 7-9 seats (12)
 JxCAT 12.1% 5-7 seats ( 8 )
Cs 11.7% 5-6 seats (5)
PP 5.9% 2 seats (6)
FR** 2.5% 0-1 seat
Vox does not appear

Parliament of Catalonia (2017 seats in brackets)

ERC 40-43 (32)
Cs 28-29 (36)
JxCAT 22-24 (34)
PSC 21-23 (17)
CatComú-Podem 8-9 ( 8 )
CUP 8 (4)
PP 3-4 (4)

* CEO is a sociological institute depending on the Catalan government, the equivalent to the Spanish CIS

** Front Republicá ("Republican Front") is a far-left separatist coalition that incorporates a faction of the CUP. The top candidate for Barcelona is Albano Dante Fachín, a former leader of Podemos in Catalonia born in Argentina. The candidate of En Comú Podem (ECP) for Barcelona is Jaume Asens, a philosopher and political scientist who is councilor in the Barcelona City Hall. This candidacy raised some opposition within Podemos because Asens is pro-independence.

The other top candidates running for Barcelona province are:

Oriol Junqueras: ERC leader and fromer deputy premier, who is being tried before the Supreme Court

Public Administrations minister Meritxell Batet for the PSC-PSOE

Former leader of the pro-independence organization ANC (Catalan National Assembly) Jordi Sánchez for JxCAT. He is in preventive detention and being tried like the ERC leader.

Opposition leader in the Parliament of Catalonia and Cs national spokeswoman Inés Arrimadas

Journalist and historian Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo for the PP, a hardliner against separatism

Previous general election polls in Catalonia predict a tight ERC-PSC contest

Recently Pedro Sánchez compared the Catalan secessionist bid with Brexit, arguing that both are based on lies

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/03/spanish-pm-pedro-sanchez-brexit-catalan-independence-bid-both-based-on-lies

Quote
pain’s prime minister, Pedro Sánchez, has compared Brexit to the failed push for Catalan independence, warning that “engaging in campaigns or political projects based on lies eventually leads societies down a blind alley”.

Renewing his appeal for the UK to accept the EU’s withdrawal deal, Sánchez said he saw clear parallels between the rhetoric that drove the Brexit debate and the arguments used in the regional independence campaign that plunged Spain into its worst crisis in four decades.

“The techniques of the Catalan independence movement are very similar to those of [Nigel] Farage and other ultra-conservative leaders who have defended Brexit,” he said.
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“They say, ‘Europe’s stealing from us!’, or ‘Spain is stealing from us!’, or, ‘If we had more economic resources …’. At the end of the day, I think that engaging in campaigns or political projects based on lies eventually leads societies down a blind alley and that’s really hard to manage.” (...)

 

The PSOE electoral slogan was presented this week. Its translation is "Make It Happen" ("Haz Que Pase") and apparently is inspired in a scene of the film Titanic, or at least that's what the Govt spokeswoman told to the press. The message it tries to convey is that people can make possible a better Spain by turning out and voting for the socialists. However, the double meaning of the sentence and the Titanic reference were ammunition for the PP. The campaign of the conservative party replied with comparisons between the government and the Titanvic sinking and sentences in the style of "haz que se pase pronto", whose translation could be "make the government to pass quickly"


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 06, 2019, 11:29:26 AM
It's been almost 3 years since the 2016 general election, but El País has published a map of results and turnout by precinct for the 2016 general election.

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/03/28/actualidad/1553783809_455746.html

Really interesting map tbh, I only wish we had an option to show the party results directly as well, but extremely interesting nontheless.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 07, 2019, 06:31:54 PM
3 new polls tonight:

GAD3 for ABC

PSOE 31% (138)
PP 21% (88)
Cs 15% (48)
UP 12% (29)
Vox 10% (17)

ERC 13
PNV 6
JxCat 5
N+ 2
Bildu 2
CC 1
Compromis 1

Right wing bloc: 46% (155 including N+)
Left wing bloc: 43% (167)
PSOE+Cs: 46% (186)

GESOP for El Periódico de Catalunya

PSOE 30% (130)
PP 21% (86)
Cs 15% (49)
UP 12% (31)
Vox 11% (22)

ERC 14
JxCat 5
(other nationalists unespecified)

Right wing bloc: 46% (157)
Left wing bloc: 42% (161)
PSOE+Cs: 44% (179)

NC Report for La Razón

PSOE 27% (110)
PP 24% (100)
Cs 16% (56)
UP 12% (30)
Vox 9% (21)

ERC 12
PNV 6
JxCat 5
Compromís 5
N+ 2
Bildu 2
En Marea 2
CC 1

Right wing bloc: 50% (178 including NS+)
Left wing bloc: 39% (140)
PSOE+Cs: 43% (166)

NC Report is the only one still giving the right a majority, though still all give the right very healthy leads in the popular vote. Of course because of vote splitting and the fact that no nationalist parties will make deals with PP-Cs-Vox, they don't just need to win, they need to win a landslide to get an overall majority, which seems hard.

2 of the 3 polls give a hypothetical PSOE+Cs government a majority. While ruled out by Cs, I think it's a very likely possibility. Even if they fall short by a handful of seats, I wouldn't completely rule out a PNV abstention or support by CC or N+

Finally, a PSOE+UP+nationalist government is possible in 2 polls as well, but I wouldn't trust that government to happen unless Sánchez gives Catalonia a referendum (not happening) or they win big enough that PNV support would be enough on its own. Maaaybe ERC could abstain, but I wouldn't trust that at all.

If the right doesn't get a majority, and neither Cs nor the Catalans give up, then we will see repeat elections.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Lord Halifax on April 07, 2019, 06:40:27 PM
Why is the right losing support?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: bigic on April 07, 2019, 07:34:14 PM
Will Bildu be more likely to support a Sanchez government than the Catalan nationalists?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 08, 2019, 02:40:37 AM

The GAD3 and the GESOP polls indicate a level of support similar to the 2016 elections (PP+Cs 46%, PSOE+UP 43%), so the right is not losing much support. The problem for the right is that now it's splitted in three and the electoral system penalizes dispersion. Leaving aside some centre-left voters returning to PSOE over the Cs turn to the right, according to pollsters  most of the vote transfers are taking place within blocs. Cs boosted past year taking advantage of the PP collapse, as it was the natural choice for voters right of the centre disgruntled over the crisis in Catalonia or the corruption scandals. Now many voters are switching from Cs to Vox, attracted either by radicalism or by novelty. Polls say that Vox has slowed its growth, but there can be no assurance with this party. Apparently the PP has stopped falling and is stable on a 20-21 pp soil. Another factor to take into account is the mobilization of left-wing voters, becasue they are more prone to abstain if they feel disappointed. In the 2016 elections UP lost 1 million of voters in comparison with the Podemos and IU results in 2015 and the correlation between blocs was reversed (PSOE+Podemos+IU got 46% in 2015, PP+Cs got below 43%). It seems the fear of Vox might help to mobilize the left, but that's uncertain. Also, there is a sizeable amount of undecided voters that will make their decision in the final days. The last campaign days after Easter holidays will be decisive.

Will Bildu be more likely to support a Sanchez government than the Catalan nationalists?

No. EH Bildu voted the no confidence motion against Rajoy, but later rejected any type of cooperation with the PSOE government. The Bildu folks are at the very least as radically pro-independence as the Puigdemont supporters. Anyway the correlation of forces makes EH Bildu much less relevant than the PNV and the Catalan nationalists.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Michael19754 on April 08, 2019, 06:35:48 AM
The debate over euthanasia has been dominating the news cycle for the past few days. The cause of this is the assisted suicide performed by Ángel Hernández on his wife María José Carrasco, who was suffering from multiple sclerosis and had asked her husband multiple times to help her commit suicide in order to end the pain she was suffering. During the last days before the event Ángel recorded multiple videos in which he mantains conversations with his wife about her situation and her wishes, and in the last two videos he asks her wether she is ready to die (she says the sooner the better) and finally Ángel helps her ingest potassium chloride, effectively killing her. He immediatly turned himself in to the police and spent the night in jail, but he was released the next day without charges.
PM Sánchez later said in an interview in Telecinco that he was 'overwhelmed' by the images and he promised to regulate euthanasia if he's re-elected, while at the same time he criticised parliamentary obstructionism on the issue by C's and PP.
UP is following more or less the same line as PSOE.
C's has performed a flip-flop of sorts. The party now says it wants a cross-party consensus to legalize assisted suicide but on very limited circumstances, even though they blocked the grand total of 19 times a bill proposed by the government that would've have allowed the practice.
Meanwhile PP and Vox say they remain diametrically opposed to euthanasia and have supported palliative care instead.
Polls say that over 80% of Spaniards are in favor of euthanasia. The unexpected entrance of euthanasia in the public debate a few weeks before an election that was supposed to be about Catalonia and Spanish unity seems to be very good news for the left, which is being very successful in setting the tone of the campaign.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 08, 2019, 06:36:09 AM

Will Bildu be more likely to support a Sanchez government than the Catalan nationalists?

No. EH Bildu voted the no confidence motion against Rajoy, but later rejected any type of cooperation with the PSOE government. The Bildu folks are at the very least as radically pro-independence as the Puigdemont supporters. Anyway the correlation of forces makes EH Bildu much less relevant than the PNV and the Catalan nationalists.



Actually, I do believe EH Bildu would be more likely to support a Sánchez government than the Catalans (especially than JxCat, who seems very radicalized and almost as gone as CUP. You know things are bad when ERC, the tradicinally hardcore independence party are now the moderates).

While Bildu is just as radically-pro independence as the Catalans, their rethoric is a lot more concilliatory. In a way, they remind me of ERC circa 2004; which did support Zapatero's first government. They clearly want to be decisive in Sánchez's government judging from some of Otegui's remarks.

The main issue in my opinion with Bildu is not the fact that they are pro-independence, but instead their very clear ties to ETA.

The image of PSOE being propped up by the same guys who 10 years ago cheered whenever a Socialist councillor was murdered by ETA would be a very hard one to swallow, even more so than doing deals with the Catalans.


I think it is basically Cs supporters moving towards PSOE because of their sharp turn to the right and the new appeareance of Vox. We have gone from 50-40 style results to 47-43.

As I said earlier, because of vote splitting and the fact that the right can't be propped up by any nationalist parties (except maaybe CC and even that one would be unclear), they don't just need to win; they need to win big.

A good example of how this election might turn out could be a "reverse 1996". In 1996 the left (PSOE+IU) very clearly beat the right (PP) 48-39. However because of vote splitting, PSOE+IU didn't have a majority and Aznar was able to get in government propped up by nationalists.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Lord Halifax on April 08, 2019, 07:46:34 AM

I think it is basically Cs supporters moving towards PSOE because of their sharp turn to the right and the new appeareance of Vox. We have gone from 50-40 style results to 47-43.

As I said earlier, because of vote splitting and the fact that the right can't be propped up by any nationalist parties (except maaybe CC and even that one would be unclear), they don't just need to win; they need to win big.

How does vote splitting affect the result? Is it because there are three competitive parties on the right and only two on the left?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 08, 2019, 08:19:04 AM

I think it is basically Cs supporters moving towards PSOE because of their sharp turn to the right and the new appeareance of Vox. We have gone from 50-40 style results to 47-43.

As I said earlier, because of vote splitting and the fact that the right can't be propped up by any nationalist parties (except maaybe CC and even that one would be unclear), they don't just need to win; they need to win big.

How does vote splitting affect the result? Is it because there are three competitive parties on the right and only two on the left?

Yes, pretty much. Plus the fact that PSOE is ahead and the fact that UP seems to be holding around 13% so it gets penalized less than Vox (but more than Cs). Of course there's also a chance that polls are wrong and Vox gets less penalized than we expect.

It seems that for the most part it will be small provinces with a handful of seats that will decide the results. And in those provinces very small even swings can have dramatic effects. Here's an article explaining it, with a diagram:

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/03/02/actualidad/1551556252_287887.html

()

This is an estimate of how many seats in small provinces (between 1 and 5 seats; which count up to 99 seats in total) each party would get depending on their national vote.

As you can see, small increases or decreases in the popular vote nationally mean very large swings.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 09, 2019, 01:50:40 PM
CIS mega-survey released today. Even though the vote estimation is controversial, there is a lot of interesting data. The sample size is massive and there are seat projections for every province, which must be taken with a grain of salt but give some clues on a number of issues (for instance, the geographical distribution of the Vox support)
()

Provinces where Vox has chances of winning seats. The result in Barcelona could be a shock

()

Catalonia: ERC landslide, PSC resurrection, En Comú Podem and JxCAT lose ground, mediocre results for Cs, Vox amazement, PP on the verge of extinction and PACMA could get in

()

[/center]


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: parochial boy on April 09, 2019, 02:42:01 PM
Why the Vox strength in the Comunitat Valencia? The Catalan link?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 09, 2019, 05:07:50 PM
Why the Vox strength in the Comunitat Valencia? The Catalan link?

Vox is a new party and its strength by regions is yet unknown. However, Vox is mostly a split of the PP and the vote patterns in the Andalusian elections suggest the far right party is stronger in the places where PP is traditionally strong. Extrapolating to the rest of Spain, most of the analyses and predictions point that Vox has better chances in regions that lean PP in general elections like Madrid, Valencia or Murcia. On the opposite side, Vox is expected to perform poorly in peripheral regions with proper language like Basque Country and Navarre, as well in Catalonia and Galicia (despite the latter is a traditional PP stronghold). So according to these expectations, Vox winning 3 seats in Barcelona would be a shocking result. Notice that Vox does not appear in the results of the CEO poll that I posted before. One of these two is going to be wrong. 

 The link between Catalonia and Valencia is complex. The Valencian region has a proper language that is a variation of the Catalan language, although there are Castilian speaking areas within the region (inland and southern sections). These linguistic zones are usually related to colonization in the Middle Ages after the Reconquista, either with Catalan or Aragonese settlers. There are two opposing political traditions in Valencia, one is Catalan-friendly and the other is fiercely anti-Catalan (Blaverism). Compromís could be an example of regionalist party of the first tradition and the historical Unió Valenciana of the second (UV formed electoral alliance and later merged with the PP). The Catalan nationalists ERC and the CUP have branches in Valencia, but they are rather marginal. Obviously Vox could garner a strong support among the anti-Catalan sector of the population.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 09, 2019, 05:34:58 PM
Why the Vox strength in the Comunitat Valencia? The Catalan link?

Honestly, if we have to take the CIS poll at large with a bit of caution, the province/regional crosstabs should be taken with a ton of caution. Valencia is not the worst offender, IMO Barcelona would be (no way Vox is that high in Barcelona, even with an abysmal PP candidate)

If we are trying to analyze Vox's impact in Valencia, I would instead look at polls for the regional election which takes place the same day. Last poll (from late March) seems to point out this:

PSOE: 29%
PP: 22%
Cs: 15%
Compromís: 14%
Vox: 7%
UP: 6%

Granted, this is not a particularly great indicator as there will be quite a bit of split ticket voting; particularly for Compromís, but I could also see it happening with Vox.

I actually think Vox will slightly underperform or perform roughly on par with their national results in Valencia.

They might get plenty of seats though, since both Valencia and Alicante have quite a bit of seats (15 and 12 respectively). I could easily see Vox getting 2 in each province.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 10, 2019, 12:16:22 AM
Frankenstein, ETA and the eight-headed serpent: the verbal aggression of Pablo Casado might be an act of desperation

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/04/09/inenglish/1554792934_759961.html

Quote
In March 1996, the governing Spanish Socialist Party (PSOE) commissioned a campaign video that depicted its rival Popular Party (PP) as an enemy of progress, and illustrated the idea with ominous black-and-white images that included a large barking dog. The TV ad about “the Socialist doberman” made waves at the time, but these days it wouldn’t even scare kindergartners (...)

The term “Frankenstein government” has already become commonplace, following last year’s successful no-confidence vote against the PP’s Mariano Rajoy. The motion was led by PSOE leader Pedro Sánchez with support from a loose coalition of leftist and regional parties, including Catalan separatists. This led critics to compare a hypothetical executive made up of all these varied groups with Mary Shelley’s famous patchwork monster.

And now comes “the eight-headed Hydra,” in the words of PP leader Pablo Casado, who used this figure from Greek mythology at a Barcelonarally on Monday, when he listed some the “heads” on this serpent-shaped monster: “Separatists, coup-plotters, terrorists, communists, Chavistas, Castro sympathizers...”

Honestly, if we have to take the CIS poll at large with a bit of caution, the province/regional crosstabs should be taken with a ton of caution. Valencia is not the worst offender, IMO Barcelona would be (no way Vox is that high in Barcelona, even with an abysmal PP candidate)

I think Vox will win seats in Barcelona. Maybe 1 or 2 instead of 3, I don't know. The relative success of PxC (Platform for Catalonia) in some local elections years ago suggests there's some ground for a xenophobic far-right party that advocates a radical Spanish nationalism, especially in the Metropolitan region of Barcelona. The CEO poll must be wrong


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: rob in cal on April 10, 2019, 01:05:28 AM
  So in some of the 3 and 4 seat districts it would make sense for Vox and UP voters to vote tactically for either the PP or PSOE, if they want to help the bigger party closer to them on the ideology scale and when their party has a low chance to win one of the seats. Has tactical voting like this occured in recent Spanish elections?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 10, 2019, 03:42:41 AM
  So in some of the 3 and 4 seat districts it would make sense for Vox and UP voters to vote tactically for either the PP or PSOE, if they want to help the bigger party closer to them on the ideology scale and when their party has a low chance to win one of the seats. Has tactical voting like this occured in recent Spanish elections?

Oh, absolutely. Before 2015 tactical voting was extremely common among IU voters, often voting PSOE as the lesser evil. 2008 being the greatest example


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 11, 2019, 06:55:52 AM
Today the CIS released a poll for the Valencian regional elections taking place on the same date as the general elections. The PSPV-PSOE led by premier Ximo Puig appears as the clear winner

()

GAD3 conducted a poll for Las Provincias local newspaper (March 31) with the following estimation:

PSPV-PSOE 28.8% (33), PP 22.4% (24), Cs 14.6% (15), Compromís 14.4% (13-14), VOX 7.1% (7-8), UP 6.7% (5-7)

I'd say PP is too low in the CIS poll and VOX is too low in both

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: mgop on April 11, 2019, 08:34:50 AM
and there is no way that cs will be that high in valencia


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 11, 2019, 09:17:50 AM
Actually, Cs' number seems alright.

However, the poll taken at large is complete junk. Their general election poll was surprisingly reasonable, but there's no way the left wins a landslide this big in Valencia.

Valencia is still, at best, a community roughly around the national average; and all election polls are predicting a right wing victory in the popular vote; and vote splitting won't hurt the right all that much in the regional election compared to the national election (Remember even Castellón gives out 24 seats in the regional election; compared to 5 in the national one)

Yes, there will be split ticket voting, especially regarding Compromís, and that split ticket voting will help the left, but the Valencian election is no better than a tossup for the left, and I'm even tempted to give PP a small advantage.

Anyways, my ratings for the 28th of April elections since the campaign will start tonight at midnight:

General election (largest party): Likely PSOE
General election (largest bloc, popular vote): Likely right wing bloc
General election (largest bloc, seats): Lean right wing bloc

General election (most likely government): Lean new election (if we get a government, it's lean PSOE-Cs)

Valencian election (largest party): Likely PSOE
Valencian election (likeliest government): Tossup


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 11, 2019, 09:25:06 AM
Also, we have now confirmed that there will be a single main debate during the campaign. All 5 main party leaders (Sánchez, Casado, Rivera, Iglesias and Abascal) will be invited and have confirmed they will go.

The debate will be hosted by private broadcaster Atresmedia, the ones in charge of the main 4-way 2015 debate as well.

There was also an offer to do a 4 way debate (without Vox) on the public broadcaster TVE, but Sánchez allegedly refused. The thing about TVE is that they have to be (even more) impartial than private broadcasters, so they were only allowed to invite parties with seats in Congress.

Of course, there will be more debates, generally with smaller parties and surrogates for the main ones. For example in 2016 we got a "women's debate" (Andrea Levy vs Margarita Robles  vs Carolina Bescansa vs Inés Arrimadas) and an "economic debate" (Luis de Guindos, Jordi Sevilla, Alberto Garzón and Luis Garicano). Both also done by Atresmedia.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 11, 2019, 10:47:22 AM
Valencia is still, at best, a community roughly around the national average; and all election polls are predicting a right wing victory in the popular vote; and vote splitting won't hurt the right all that much in the regional election compared to the national election (Remember even Castellón gives out 24 seats in the regional election; compared to 5 in the national one)

Yes, there will be split ticket voting, especially regarding Compromís, and that split ticket voting will help the left, but the Valencian election is no better than a tossup for the left, and I'm even tempted to give PP a small advantage.

I think the left has a chance to retain majority in Valencia, better than some might expect. The coalition government between PSOE and Compromís has been pretty stable and reasonably efficient, to the point that some people compare the regional political situation with Portugal. The current government came after a long period of PP in power with crushing majorities, whose turbulent final period was marked by massive corruption scandals. Valencia became synonymous with cronyism, squandering and wrongdoing  3 of 4 PP premiers are charged in legal proceedings: Francisco Camps, José Luis Olivas and Eduardo Zaplana. The latter has been already 8 months in prison and is accused of hiding 20 millions abroad... The contrast with the present period is so brutal that I'd be surprised if voters forget so fast. Anyway I concur the result is likely to be tight in what regards the balance between left and the rightwing blocs. The actual Vox support is yet unknown and could make the difference as in Andalusia, but I doubt the turnout will be so depressed in the left to create a similar shock.

Just as a reminder, the previous regional election was a landslide for the left. The parties left of the centre (PSOE, Compromís, Podem and EUPV) got 55% of the vote, while the parties right of the centre (PP, Cs and UPyD) got around 40%. PACMA (0.8%) and Vox (0.4%) were under radar.

However the right performed better in general elections. In 2015 the left (Compromís-Podem, PSOE, EUPV-IU) got 49% of the vote and the right (PP, Cs) 47%. In 2016 the left (Compromis-Podem-EUPV, PSOE) got 46% and the right (PP, Cs) got 50%.

 PACMA got 1.3% in 2016 and now the CIS says the animal rights party has chances of winning a seat for Valencia in the next general election. Winning a seat in that province requires approx 5% of the vote. The PACMA seat for Barcelona seems to be easier to win, given that it requires to get 3% and the PACMA already got 1.8% in 2016.

The party just released a well crafted campaign video. The PACMA "Re-Evolution" begins to fight against the Vox "Involution"

https://pacma.es/videos/empieza-la-reevolucion/


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 12, 2019, 07:46:46 AM
Tonight the campaign started officially. From now on there are 15 days left for Spaniards to decide if they want Frankenstein (PSOE, UP and peripheral nationalists), the Colón Triumvirate (PP, Cs and Vox) or a repetition of elections. Isn't it an exciting perspective?

Divide and conquer: the strategy of Pedro Sánchez

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/04/12/inenglish/1555052464_524300.html

Quote
The two-week campaign ahead of the general election of April 28 that began today is going to be an atypical one, with many Spaniards away on their Easter vacation. Everything will come down to the last week, and the candidate debate scheduled for April 23, five days before voters go to the polls, will be a crucial moment in the race.

When Socialist Party (PSOE) Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez decided on Thursday to agree to one single five-way debate – rather than four ways, excluding the far-right Vox – it confirmed what his strategy is going to be.

After much internal discussion, the socialist leader is opting to bring together the heads of the Popular Party (PP), Ciudadanos (Citizens) and Vox, to convince undecided leftist voters that these three right-of-center parties will govern Spain unless there is a strong turnout on April 28. Sánchez wants a new “photo of Colón,” alluding to a mass protest against his government held in February at Madrid’s Colón square, and which marked the first and up until now only time that PP and Ciudadanos leaders were pictured together with representatives from the far-right Vox.

Sánchez also wants the political right to be as fractured as possible ahead of the vote. The idea is that if all three parties have similar levels of support, it will be harder for their leader – presumably the PP – to fight the PSOE over key seats in Congress (...)

This is going to be a weird campaign. Vox leader Santiago Abascal started his triumfal tour in Covadonga, which is an appropriate choice because that location in Asturias is the site of the inaugural battle of the Reconquista, or at least that's what the national mythology says (likely the Battle of Covadonga was just a skirmish).¡Santiago y Cierra España! The campaign will coincide with the Easter holidays; the colorful Holy Week processions will take place in Andalusia as usual. The three leaders pf the Spanish Right announced their presence in the Cristo de la Buena Muerte ("Christ of the Good Death") procession taking place in Málaga, but the organizers (a confraternity called Cofradía de Mena) have requested them not to go in order to prevent the vent turns nto a campaign act. This is true Spanish folklore: the wooden sculpture of the Christ id ¡s carried on the shoulders of the brave legionaires. The Spanish Legion is a military unit made in the likeness of its French counterpart and is very linked historically to the colonial wars in Northern Morocco (Rif), the Spanish Civil War and Franco. Currently the Legión is an elite unit that takes part in UN missions abroad.

El País average polling: PSOE 29.3%, PP 19.9%, Cs 15.5%, UP 13.6%, Vox 10.7%  

Podcast in English

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/04/03/inenglish/1554292100_462357.html

GAD3 for ABC

PSOE 30.9% (135-137). PP 21.3% ( 85-91), Cs 13.5% (43-46), UP 12% (29-30), Vox 11.2% (25-29), ERC (12-13), EAJ-PNV (6), JxCAT (4-5), EH Bildu (2), NA+ (2), Compromís (1), CC (1)

Celeste-Tel for eldiario.es

PSOE 27.3% (112-117), PP 23.9% (99-102), Cs 15.9% (51-56), UP 13.1% (32-37), Vox 7.8% 812-14), ERC 2.8% (12-13), EAJ-PNV 1.2% (6), JxCAT 1.6% (5), Compromís 1.5% (4-5), Eh Bildu 0.8% (2-3), En Marea 0.5% (3), NA+ 0.5% (1), CC 0.3% (1), PACMA 1.5% (0)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: seb_pard on April 12, 2019, 08:42:12 PM
Honestly, I thinks is very hard to understand the stability of Compromís, I mean, the coalition covers a broad range of movements with different views on Valencian identity (well, not blaverism), from strong Valencianism to people who want to establish the Catalan Countries. I think it is great, but also is weird in a country like Spain, where the left tends to implode and ends divided.

Also I think the Valencian Community (or Pais Valencia) is the place (with Murcia) where Cs and Vox can do really well. Both are communities with historically strong provincial PPs that governed alone for many years but now are with notorious signs of exhaustion (the case of PP in Valencia is really crazy). Right wing people in those communities now have real options. I think Cs can also exploit the language card in Valencia with some success.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 12, 2019, 11:57:01 PM
Honestly, I thinks is very hard to understand the stability of Compromís, I mean, the coalition covers a broad range of movements with different views on Valencian identity (well, not blaverism), from strong Valencianism to people who want to establish the Catalan Countries. I think it is great, but also is weird in a country like Spain, where the left tends to implode and ends divided.

Compromís is indeed a strange coalition of Valencian regionalists (BNV or Bloc is the main partner) with some former IU members integrated in the party of Mónica Oltra (the ecosocialist IdPV). I think the main reasons that cement Compromís are electoral success and the charisma and leadership of Mónica Oltra. The Valencian Nationalist Bloc amalgamates several parties and it has a remarkable territorial implementation in the Valencian-speaking countryside, but it's weak in the most populous urban centres. The Bloc failed to win regional seats in 2003 due to the 5% threshold ruling in Valencia (it got 4.7%). In the following election the Bloc shifted to the left and established an alliance with EUPV (the regional branch of IU). This coalition was called Compromís PV ("Commitment for the Valencian Country") and proved rather unsuccessful (CPV got 8% in 2007, while EUPV and Bloc got a combined 10.8% in the previous election). The bad electoral result worsened a relationship between coalition partners that was pretty awkward already. Eventually an internal rift within the EUPV led to the split of Mónica Oltra, Joan Ribó and other EUPV members that established a new party in the likeness of the Catalan ICV (the ecosocialist IdPV). Oltra and her party kept the alliance with the Bloc, while the 'orthodox' faction of the EUPV followed its own path. Oddly enough the reshaped Compromís and EUPV were successful in the 2011 elections, as both parties managed to be above threshold (Compromís 7.2%, EUPV 5.9%). The new Compromís was initially led by the Bloc leader Enric Morera, with Mónica Oltra as deputy leader and parliamentary spokeswoman. However Oltra was always the most charismatic figure of the coalition: she came out as a tenacious and combative parliamentarian, very vocal against the corrupt administration of Francisco Camps. Her popularity and appeal among the young voters living in the cities contributed decisively to the success of Compromís. Enric Morera, on the other hand, is calm and measured so his personality is  in some respect complementary to that of Oltra. I'd say the success of Compromís is due to a rare balance between its heterogeneous components, both personal and organizational. On a side note, Compromís has parted ways with Podemos recently Oltra is in good terms with the former second-in-line Íñigo Errejón...

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Also I think the Valencian Community (or Pais Valencia) is the place (with Murcia) where Cs and Vox can do really well. Both are communities with historically strong provincial PPs that governed alone for many years but now are with notorious signs of exhaustion (the case of PP in Valencia is really crazy). Right wing people in those communities now have real options. I think Cs can also exploit the language card in Valencia with some success.

Yes, both Cs and Vox have good chances there. In the case of Valencia the anti-Catalan factor has been always a strong electoral card for the rightwing parties. The profile of the Cs candidate Toni Cantó is clearly anti-Catalan and "hardline liberal", in contrast with the social-liberal and environmentalist credentials of the 2015 candidate Carolina Punset. The latter is daughter of the popular science commentator and former UCD member Eduardo Punset and left Cs due to ideological differences, complaining the party abandoned it's alleged initial social-liberal orientation. 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 13, 2019, 01:17:11 PM
This article about the battle for the "Emptied Spain" is worth reading, particularly because it's a key feature of the upcoming general election

https://www.politico.eu/article/the-battle-for-spains-empty-center/

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panish politicians are flocking to the countryside, looking for photo opportunities with villagers, tractors and even farmyard animals.

The rural interior of the country has become the subject of mass political and media attention ahead of a national election on April 28. That's because the Spanish right has become fractured, which could mean the end of the Popular Party's stranglehold on the area and could pave the way for Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez's Socialists to win districts that are overrepresented in parliament in what is certain to be a very tight race.

Madrid's sudden interest in rural areas has also spurred many locals to take advantage of the situation. They are using the attention to highlight issues such as communities' aging and shrinking populations, as well as traditions they want to protect, such as hunting.

“Rural Spain today holds a prominent place in the public conversation, in the political agenda of each and every party,” Sánchez said at a rally in Segovia, north of Madrid, late last month. “After years of silence, it’s time to take action.”

Sánchez has good reason to be focusing on the interior. Polls predict that the Socialists will replace the Popular Party (PP) as the biggest party in a majority of inland provinces. But it's not because rural voters are flocking to the Socialists; it's because the far-right Vox party and the liberal Ciudadanos are taking votes away from the PP (...)

Spain is divided into 52 electoral districts, and the rural areas are valuable. The 28 most sparsely populated constituencies have just 20 percent of the population but 30 percent of the seats in parliament —  103 out of 350. On top of that, the electoral system becomes less proportional in these areas because of the reduced number of seats per district, giving the winning party a bonus.

In 2016, the PP won 40 percent of the vote in rural districts and 51 percent of the seats. A poll of polls for El País forecasts the conservatives will lose almost half their seats in those constituencies, while the Socialists will grow from 29 to 48.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 13, 2019, 02:01:24 PM
GAD3 poll for La Vanguardia

()

It's good news for the PSOE, although the pollster warns there's a high degree of uncertainty because 26% of voters could switch to other parties and change the result.

Vote share: PSOE 31.1, PP 21 (including NA+), Cs 14.4, UP 11.4, Vox 11.2, ERC 3.6, PACMA 1.4, EAJ-PNV 1.2, JxCAT 1.2, EH Bildu 0.7, Compromís 0.5, CC 0.3, Front Republicá 0.2

Right 46.6% 151-161 seats
Left 42.5% 164-169 seats
PSOE+Cs 45.5% 181-185 seats


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: windjammer on April 14, 2019, 10:17:38 AM
Velasco,
Could you tell us which small parties, from the least likely to the most mikely, could support a PSOE-Podemos government?
Thanks!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Mike88 on April 14, 2019, 10:47:46 AM
I think it's pretty clear, as of now, that PSOE will win with around the same % PP got in 2016, 33%. It will be interesting to see what happens in PP/C's after the elections, and if the results are what polls predict. Will Casado be kicked out of the PP leadership and Soraya makes a comeback? And C's? Will they eat their words and form an agreement with PSOE, or will there be a "refoundation" of the Spanish right like in the late 80's with a merge of PP and C's, if that's even possible.

Also, curiously, and for now, the Spanish elections are receiving almost zero coverage from the Portuguese media. Interesting, but that may change in the next few days, i assume.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Mike88 on April 14, 2019, 11:16:28 AM
Sondaxe poll for Voz de Galicia newspaper: (https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/elecciones/2019/04/13/pp-mantiene-bastion-galicia-pese-caida-prevista-espana/00031555179726778130709.htm)

32.9% PP, 10 seats (-2)
29.7% PSOE, 10 (+4)
11.5% C's, 1 (+1)
10.9% UP, 2 (-3)
  4.9% Vox, 0
  4.4% BNG, 0
  2.4% En Marea, 0
  3.3% Others

If PP loses Galicia... Yikes.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 14, 2019, 01:44:26 PM
Velasco,
Could you tell us which small parties, from the least likely to the most mikely, could support a PSOE-Podemos government?
Thanks!

I guess you mean regionalist parties.

Traditional PP allies like UPN (Navarre) and Foro (Asturias) will never support it for obvious reasons. The Canary Coalition (CC) will never support a government including Podemos and is currently in bad terms with the PSOE. JxCAT is  dominated by Puigdemont supporters and won't back it, unless Pedro Sánchez is willing to make concessions on self-determination (extremely unlikely). I guess EH Bildu wouldn't support it for the same reasons, regardless there's more ideological proximity. ERC is currently in a more pragmatic stance than JxCAT in what regards the path to Catalan independence; it's possible that ERC leadership would want to back a PSOE-led government, but it would face pressure from pro-independence grassroots if there are no concessions on the part of Sánchez. The PNV has less ideological proximity to the Spanish Left than ERC and Bildu,  but its approach is far more pragmatic and the Basque nationalists want to prevent that Cs touches power (either in a rightwing coalition or with the PSOE). Finally Compromis (Valencia) would support a PSOE-Podemos government in all likelihood.

I think it's pretty clear, as of now, that PSOE will win with around the same % PP got in 2016, 33%. It will be interesting to see what happens in PP/C's after the elections, and if the results are what polls predict. Will Casado be kicked out of the PP leadership and Soraya makes a comeback? And C's? Will they eat their words and form an agreement with PSOE, or will there be a "refoundation" of the Spanish right like in the late 80's with a merge of PP and C's, if that's even possible.

Also, curiously, and for now, the Spanish elections are receiving almost zero coverage from the Portuguese media. Interesting, but that may change in the next few days, i assume.

The polls are favourable for Pedro Sánchez, but getting too confident is the worst thing socialists can do and I guess they are fully aware of that after Andalusia. The PSOE seems to be engaged in a catch all strategy and the socialists are apparently successful in regaining voters from Podemos and Cs. Additionally polls say they are attracting a cross-generational support and that's very positive for them. However that base of support is far from being consolidated. There is a high proportion of undecided voters that could decide the election one way or another, depending on which side they go in the final days.  Moreover the rightwing vote is splitted and this favours Sánchez,  but it's also very motivated to show up on election day. Mobilizing the leftwing vote is key, not only for the PSOE but to prevent the UP collapse. Will the fear of Vox be enough to make lefties go to the polls?

I don't foresee a Soraya comeback. Possibly the natural candidate to replace Pablo Casado in case of crushing defeat is Alberto Núñez Feijoó. Casado is far from being consolidated in leadership, but there are too many people in the PP disliking Santamaría. The Galician premier is the only consensus figure that could unite the party.

In the case of Cs the problem is that Rivera left all his eggs in the basket of the Colón Trio. A PSOE-Cs coalition would be the preferred option for the European Commission and pretty much by the business world and everything related to establishment. It's not easy to eat your own words when they are so weighty. Additionally the decision to place Inés Arrimadas as candidate for Barcelona might reveal a bad idea if she is not able to improve the orange performance in that key province. Prospects are not particularly favourable. Arrimadas is the obvious replacement for Rivera. I still think she's a valuable politician, but her showing after the last electoral success in Catalonia has been rather disappointing IMO.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 16, 2019, 07:00:30 AM
The PSOE unveiled its "low key" platform in a campaign act that took place in Leganés, a working class located south of Madrid. Pedro Sánchez promised  a constitutional reform to "shield" pensions before an aged audience gathered in a senior centre. Recently the economic guru Daniel Lacalle, who is a staunch neoliberal and runs in the PP list for Madrid, made a campaign gaffe as he suggested a drastic reduction in pensions to maje the state system "sustainable". Later Lacalle claimed he was misunderstood, in a similar way that Pablo Casado charges against the press when he makes gaffes or controversial statements. Lacalle is promising a "fiscal revolution" with massive tax reductions that "will save 705 Euros to the average taxpayer" (and presumably a much larger amount to the richest taxpayers). On the other hand, Pablo Casado announced on Monday that he will apply the Political Parties Law to those organizing "escraches" ("escrache" is an Argentinian word that means "exposure protest" that may be synonym with "bullying" or "harassment"). Rightwing candidates and leaders Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo, Albert Rivera and Santiago Abascal have faced "escraches" from radical pro-independence supporters in Catalonia and the Basque Country.

Brief summary of proposals to tackle some of the country's main problems: five parties, two models

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/04/15/inenglish/1555313118_338133.html

Catalan crisis: PP, Cs and Vox promise to apply Article 155 and introduce direct rule, regardless the dubious constitutionality of such measure. PP is promising to intervene on subjects ranging from education to media outlets; Cs would ask the Catalan premier to comply with the Constitution and intervene in case of negative answer; Vox would rather suppress regional autonomy.

 The PSOE is trying to overlook the Catalan conundrum during the campaign. Its proposal is strengthening self-government and opposing both direct rule and independence referendum.

Podemos supports a negotiated referendum in which they'll support that Catalonia remains with an improved self-rule.

Gender issues: Vox advocates the repeal of the legislation against gender based violence. but PP and Cs defend it and want to address issues like the salary gap. PSOE and Podemos seek to strengthen LGTBI rights. The purple party wants to achieve gender parity in institutions like the Cabinet (I thought that was achieved already) or the Supreme Court within a 4 year period. as well as reform criminal legislation to protect victims of sexual assault (the case known as La Manada raised a lot of indignation).

Taxes: Leftist parties want that highest earners, big comapnies and banks pay more taxes. The PSOE announced new taxes on financial transactions and digital services, as well as a higher income tax rate for the wealthy.

The PP promises to cut the highest tax rate from 45% to 40%, bringing corporate tax below 20%, eliminating inheritance tax, estate tax, etcetera. Cs would reduce highest tax rate to 44%, act against corporate tax deductions and eliminate inheritance tax. Vox advocates massive tax reductions.

Pensions: Vague pledges for "reform" to achieve "sustainability". Vox would likely demolish the state system.

Employment: The right supports measures that reduce of workers' rights and make firing cheaper. The PP wants to go further the 2012 reform in order to continue the "progress on market flexibility", while the left wants to repeal part of this legislation to reinforce workers' rights and tackle job insecurity.

Nearly every party promises to improve the situation of the  workers through tax breaks and subsidies. Cs in particular always claims to be the party that best defends their insterests. There's some consensus on making paternity and maternity leaves equal.

Immigration: PP wants to fight smugglers and reinforce the southern borders, expand international treaties for repatriation of irregulars. All Venezuelan would be granted residency permits. The PSOE supports orderly immigration" and "maximum respect for human rights". Podemos seeks the abolition of immigrant holding centers (CIE), issue "humanitarian visas" and facilitate family reunification. Cox wants to deport all illegal immigrants, as well as legal immigrants who have committed a crime. Also, Cox wants to build an "insurmountable wall" to protect Ceuta and Melilla from the hordes coming from Africa. The last proposal has a clear resemblance with that of Donald Trump for the Mexican border. 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Rethliopuks on April 16, 2019, 07:11:41 AM

Catalan crisis: PP, Cs and Vox promise to apply Article 155 and introduce direct rule, regardless the dubious constitutionality of such measure. PP is promising to intervene on subjects ranging from education to media outlets; Cs would ask the Catalan premier to comply with the Constitution and intervene in case of negative answer; Vox would rather suppress regional autonomy.

 The PSOE is trying to overlook the Catalan conundrum during the campaign. Its proposal is strengthening self-government and opposing both direct rule and independence referendum.

Podemos supports a negotiated referendum in which they'll support that Catalonia remains with an improved self-rule.

Gender issues: Vox advocates the repeal of the legislation against gender based violence. but PP and Cs defend it and want to address issues like the salary gap. PSOE and Podemos seek to strengthen LGTBI rights. The purple party wants to achieve gender parity in institutions like the Cabinet (I thought that was achieved already) or the Supreme Court within a 4 year period. as well as reform criminal legislation to protect victims of sexual assault (the case known as La Manada raised a lot of indignation).

Taxes: Leftist parties want that highest earners, big comapnies and banks pay more taxes. The PSOE announced new taxes on financial transactions and digital services, as well as a higher income tax rate for the wealthy.

The PP promises to cut the highest tax rate from 45% to 40%, bringing corporate tax below 20%, eliminating inheritance tax, estate tax, etcetera. Cs would reduce highest tax rate to 44%, act against corporate tax deductions and eliminate inheritance tax. Vox advocates massive tax reductions.

Even though Cs has vowed not to form a coalition with PSOE, their stances on Catalonia and gender issues are surprisingly compatible.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 16, 2019, 07:28:49 AM
Sondaxe poll for Voz de Galicia newspaper: (https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/elecciones/2019/04/13/pp-mantiene-bastion-galicia-pese-caida-prevista-espana/00031555179726778130709.htm)

If PP loses Galicia... Yikes.

Sub-national polling is not always reliable, but anyway Sondaxe is already placing PSOE ahead of the PP in Galicia.

There is a compilation of polls at sub-national level in the Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-national_opinion_polling_for_the_2019_Spanish_general_election

Also, the opinion polling for the upcoming Valencian regional elections is favourable for the leftwing parties. The three last polls appearing in the Wiki page (NC Report, 40dB and Invest Group) estimate a majority for PSOE, Compromís and UP.

In my opinion there are some pollsters that deserve more credit than others. Regardless, I think that all the opinion polls must be taken with some grains of salt. The Vox factor is very difficult to measure. Nobody knows of the Vox support will peak in the final days, with thousands of angry conservatives and abstentionists showing up for the far right party, or it will deflate. Next week the Vox leader Santiago Abascal will confront the rest of leaders in the TV debate. I don't expect a great performance by the far right leader, because he's not a good speaker and lacks intellect or human qualities. But these times are very strange. so we'll see.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/14/spain-vox-party-on-course-to-break-into-mainstream-politics

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The Andalucían vote had two dramatic and enduring consequences: not only did it see the socialist PSOE turfed out of office in its traditional stronghold, it also confirmed both the advent of Vox and its growing influence on other rightwing parties.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 16, 2019, 07:33:54 AM
Even though Cs has vowed not to form a coalition with PSOE, their stances on Catalonia and gender issues are surprisingly compatible.

Do you really think so? PSOE supports more self-government for Catalonia and dialogue with separatists, while Cs spokepersons say they have nothing to talk with them. In what regards gender issues, Cs supports surrogacy and the legalization of prostitution. PSOE opposes firmly to surrogacy and its stance on prostitution leans to abolition.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Rethliopuks on April 16, 2019, 10:44:44 AM

Do you really think so? PSOE supports more self-government for Catalonia and dialogue with separatists, while Cs spokepersons say they have nothing to talk with them. In what regards gender issues, Cs supports surrogacy and the legalization of prostitution. PSOE opposes firmly to surrogacy and its stance on prostitution leans to abolition.

Fair. I was trying to keep my hope high for a PSOE-based coalition I guess 😶


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 16, 2019, 01:12:00 PM

Do you really think so? PSOE supports more self-government for Catalonia and dialogue with separatists, while Cs spokepersons say they have nothing to talk with them. In what regards gender issues, Cs supports surrogacy and the legalization of prostitution. PSOE opposes firmly to surrogacy and its stance on prostitution leans to abolition.


Fair. I was trying to keep my hope high for a PSOE-based coalition I guess 😶

The fact that PSOE and Cs have serious differences doesn't imply the impossibility to reach agreements in the future. Actually a PSOE-Cs agreement would please many factual powers and they will certainly push for it, providing that numbers fit. However the hardline stance against dialogue on the part of Cs is a serious obstacle, regardless both parties concur in their opposition to a referendum on self-determination in Catalonia. Also, the federalism advocated by the PSOE clashes with  the Cs centralist leanings. Not to mention Rivera's promises and his harsh words against Sánchez. However, Rivera promised in 2015 and 2016 that he would never deal with Sánchez and Rajoy. Everybody knows he did in both cases. Moreover, one of the main traits of Pedro Sánchez is his flexibility, something that can be intrepreted in a positive or a negative light. Podemos leader Pablo Iglesias is warning against the possibility of a PDOE-Cs deal. Obviously that's a campaign argument with the purpose of retaining leftwing voters susceptible to flee to PSOE. Iglesias is also seeking a result that makes the seats won by UP necessary for government formation...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Tender Branson on April 16, 2019, 02:37:12 PM
My preliminary estimate is that VOX should get 13.5 to 15% in the election.

Also: it seems as if VOX will not appear in any debate because of their 0.2% or something they received in the 2016 election and therefore no seats in parliament.

Spanish election law article 66.2 says that only parties getting more than 5% in the last election can take part in debates and I guess this also applies to private TV channels ...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: MAINEiac4434 on April 16, 2019, 03:26:21 PM
PSOE have staged something of a comeback recently, no? Before it looked like they would only be slightly above the PP.

Also worth noting that UP has feminized their name to Unidas Podemos.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 17, 2019, 06:32:43 PM
The five-candidate debate suspended by the Central Electoral Board (Junta Electoral Central, JEC). ERC, PNV and CC appealed before the JEC complaining for being left out

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/04/17/inenglish/1555485592_606737.html

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According to legislative reforms introduced in 2011, private networks have the obligation to respect the same principles of “neutrality and equality” as public stations. At that time, the Central Electoral Board (JEC) established that only parties that had earned at least five percent of votes at the last general election could participate in these debates.

Vox obtained 0.2% of the vote at the 2016 election, significantly shy of the threshold. Election officials said its presence would violate the rights of Catalan and Basque nationalist parties, whose leaders were not invited to the event.

The JEC told the Atresmedia group, which owns Antena 3 and La Sexta, to come up with an alternative format for the program. Atresmedia offered a new four-way debate on the same date, April 23 at 10pm.

But Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez on Wednesday announced that he will instead attend a four-candidate debate on the state broadcaster TVE, scheduled for the same day. The Socialist Party (PSOE) has finally opted for the public television over the private network, saying that “it has offered the signal for free to all media wishing to air the debate,” and because it was the first to offer a four-candidate debate. Before the JEC’s decision, Sánchez had originally opted for Atresmedia over TVE.
Reaction

Prior to the 2015 general elections, Atresmedia organized a debate including Pablo Iglesias (Podemos) and Albert Rivera (Cs), alongside with Pedro Sánchez (PSOE) and Deputy PM Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría representing the PP (PM Mariano Rajoy refused to go). By then Podemos and Cs didn't have seats in Congress, but the 5% rule was relaxed to include other nationwide elections. Given that Podemos got 8% in the 2014 EP elections and Cs got more than 5% in the local elections held in May 2015, their candidates were allowed to participate in the debate. Anyway Pablo Iglesias stated that it is absurd to veto candidates in private network debated and I tend to agree with that.

Pedro Sánchez had accepted to participate in the five-candidate debate with the Vox leader because it was deemed suitable for his campaign strategy. It would have been a  great opportunity to show the Trio of Colón (PP, Cs and Vox) together and place himself at the centre of the stage: a moderate candidate advocating common sense, confronted to the radicalized and vociferous rightwing opposition. The divide and conquer strategy performed by Sánchez has certain resemblance with the strategy employed by Miterrand with the FN in the 80s. Apparently not everybody in the PSOE agreed with that course, but in any case the decision of the electoral board is a setback for the campaign.

Yesterday night there was a debate in TVE between representatives of the six parliamentary groups. Participants were: Cayetana Älvarez de Toledo (PP), María Jesús Montero (PSOE), Irene Montero (Podemos), Inés Arrimadas (Cs), Gabriel Rufián (ERC) and Aitor Esteban (PNV).

The highlight was an intervention of the PP candidate for Barcelona; "I find fascinating -told to the Treasure minister María Jesús Montero- that point in your platform saying you will guarantee with the Penal Code anything that is "no" is "yes", is "no". A silence is a "no"? Are you saying "yes", "yes" until the end? Cayetana Älvarez de Toledo was referring to the controversy on the sexual consent of women, in relation with the ruling of a case known by La Manada that raised widespread indignation. In summer 2016 a young woman was forced to have sexual relationships with 5 men during Los Sanfermines, a big fiesta that takes place in Pamplona (Navarre). Nearly everybody in Spain considered it was a multiple violation. However the court ruled it was sexual abuse but no violation, because the victim didn't say "no" explicitly to the five men. That rule provoked a wave of protests and a debate on whether silence implies consent or not. The PSOE intends to legislate in order that everything that is not explicit consent is considered a "no". Obviously Älvarez de Toledo disagrees with that proposal. The harsh tone of Älvarez de Toledo on this and other subjects (she attacked Sánchez too, in relation with Catalonia) raises enthusiasm in the faction of the PP close to Pablo Casado, but some supporters of Mariano Rajoy fear that it could help to mobilize the left.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Tender Branson on April 18, 2019, 12:25:35 AM
A new poll has VOX with more than 14% support.

The way this is going (like in Finland), they will get 14-17% ... up from 0.2% in 2016.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 19, 2019, 05:14:44 AM
The 'war on debates' came to an end. PM Pedro Sánchez accepted to participate in the debates organized by the public channel TVE and the private network Atresmedia that will take place on two consecutive days, Monday 22 (TVE) and Tuesday 23 (Atresmedia). Initially Pedro Sánchez stated his intention to participate only in the debate organized by Atresmedia, but after the exclusion of Vox he changed his mind and said he would participate in the debate organized by TVE and asked the public broadcaster RTVE to change the date from Monday to Tuesday. The RTVE manager accepted the request raising criticism among opposition leaders (whom maintained their commitment with the Atresmedia debate on Tuesday) and the journalists of the public channel. So we'll have two opportunities to watch the four candidates: Pedro Sánchez (PSOE), Pablo Casado (PP), Albert Rivera (Cs) and Pablo Iglesias (UP).

ERC leader Oriol Junqueras is giving a press conference today from prison, as the electoral board allowed the tried separatist leaders to do so via streaming. He stated that "neither by act nor by omission we will permit a far right government".

The Economist editorializes it'd be good that Pedro Sánchez gets a result allowing him to form a stable government and deems economically dangerous a PSOE-Pdemos coalition. Also, it warns that a rightwing triumvirate would aggravate conflict in Catalonia and be a step in the wrong direction for a country that fought so hard against the ghosts of the Franco's nationalism.
 
In a similar line, Brussels fears that the election may not end political instability

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/04/18/inenglish/1555570052_174296.html

Quote
Elections are one of those defining moments in the history of a country. Spain is viewing the general election of April 28 as some sort of second democratic Transition, following a decade of recession that left lingering scars in the form of unemployment and inequality. There is also the biggest political crisis in 40 years to contend with – Catalonia – as well as a new and imperfect five-way party system that is going to turn parliament on its head.

Spain’s young leaders (they were all born after 1972) have opted for a confrontational tone that complicates post-election alliances. This ulcerous atmosphere also makes it hard to hold far-reaching debates: besides the headline-grabbing sound bites, hardly anyone is taking a clear stand on the main issues driving Europe’s agenda, from Brexit to immigration or the future of the euro (...)

  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 20, 2019, 10:44:18 AM
This is an extraordinary map of the 2016 results by precinct or census section

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/04/17/actualidad/1555522788_557334.html

Results in my precict were UP 33%, PP 28%, PSOE 23%, Cs 11%

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 20, 2019, 03:35:13 PM
Some takes from the 2016 map

Madrid: PP wins in the wealthy districts along the Paseo de la Castellana, getting more than 80% of the vote in some precincts located in the Salamanca district. Unidos Podemos wins in emblematic neighbourhoods of the Madrid centre such as the multicultural Lavapiés (Podemos birthplace), Chueca (the LGTB quarter) and Malasaña (nightlife)

()

Barcelona: The red belt around Barcelona turned purple in the 2015 and 2016 elections. En Comú Podem was the winning party in most pf the Barcelona's neighbourhoods, while the PP resisted in the wealthiest sections of Sarrià-Sant Gervasi and Les Corts in competetion with CDC

()



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 21, 2019, 09:51:07 AM
40 dB poll for El País. PP performing below 20% would be a catastrophe for Casado

()

The real campaign begins tomorrow with the TV debate in two rounds


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 21, 2019, 11:12:24 AM
40 dB poll for El País. PP performing below 20% would be a catastrophe for Casado

()

The real campaign begins tomorrow with the TV debate in two rounds

So the Right-Left percentages haven't really changed, its just the distribution between the blocks that has shifted to the benefit of sanchez.

Whats really interesting is that PSOE-C's has a hypothetical majority (never mind how realistic) only on 43% of the vote.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 21, 2019, 12:49:57 PM
Not that unrealistic at all. The theshold for getting an overall majority as a single party seems to start at around 40% of the vote but depends also on how divided the opposition is.

Felipe González got exactly 175/350 seats in 1989 with only 39.6% of the popular vote. On an even more surprising fact, UCD came only 7 seats away from a majority with only 34.8% of the popular vote. The party that has benefited the most from the election system historically is still UCD, Spain's election system was designed on purpose so UCD would get a majority with roughly 35% of the popular vote while PSOE would need closer to 40%.

However, trends have definitely made this less clear and more about just benefiting large parties though there's still a very small right wing bias when all things are equal (which only mattered during the 2 party system era)

The math for blocs is certainly a lot more complicated though. But it's not that weird for PSOE+Cs to be with a majority with only around 43% of the vote.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 21, 2019, 12:55:37 PM
Also, here's how my precinct looks like. This is particularly interesting as I live in the same town as Velasco :P (albeit in very different places it seems)

PP 39%
UP 23%
Cs 18%
PSOE 16%
CC 1%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 21, 2019, 01:03:47 PM
Also, here's how my precinct looks like. This is particularly interesting as I live in the same town as Velasco :P (albeit in very different places it seems)

PP 39%
UP 23%
Cs 18%
PSOE 16%
CC 1%

With weird polarized politics like that it's got to be an middle-upper class suburb or neighborhood of Madrid.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 21, 2019, 01:06:31 PM
Also, here's how my precinct looks like. This is particularly interesting as I live in the same town as Velasco :P (albeit in very different places it seems)

PP 39%
UP 23%
Cs 18%
PSOE 16%
CC 1%

With weird polarized politics like that it's got to be an middle-upper class suburb or neighborhood of Madrid.

Well, with CC being an option and being in the same town as Velasco, it can't be Madrid :P

It is indeed a middle or upper-middle class suburb though. Also one of the more ex-urban kinds of suburb, not close at all to the city center.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 21, 2019, 02:06:21 PM
Also, here's how my precinct looks like. This is particularly interesting as I live in the same town as Velasco :P (albeit in very different places it seems)

PP 39%
UP 23%
Cs 18%
PSOE 16%
CC 1%

With weird polarized politics like that it's got to be an middle-upper class suburb or neighborhood of Madrid.

Well, with CC being an option and being in the same town as Velasco, it can't be Madrid :P

It is indeed a middle or upper-middle class suburb though. Also one of the more ex-urban kinds of suburb, not close at all to the city center.

CC got approximately the same votes as PACMA in LPGC ;D. The neighbourhood where I have my 'official' residence (I am registered there, but that doesn't imply I live there all the time) is working class with some middle class patches and is urban. Other places in town where I lived when I was a child are more PP leaning, though. Particularly in the precinct where is located the clinic where I was born and what was my grandparents' house the PP got more than 50% of the vote.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: seb_pard on April 21, 2019, 04:15:32 PM
I believe that Malasaña is the best neighborhood in the whole world. Good to know how people vote there, although it seemed obvious when I stayed there. I remember that the first flag I saw was a republican one.

On a side note, I know Vallecas has a left-wing reputation, but is amazing the numbers from the neighborhood, you have the two parties from the left of center performing well there. One precinct has UP over 50% and PSOE over 20%. Nevertheless, Salamanca offsets those results haha.

Also, the results from Salamanca and Valladolid are very interesting (from my point of view). Those cities are known for being very right wing, but the PP performed really well in the respective downtowns. It should be interesting to see how this would move on sunday (I think Cs and Vox could perform well there).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: seb_pard on April 21, 2019, 04:28:18 PM
Also, here's how my precinct looks like. This is particularly interesting as I live in the same town as Velasco :P (albeit in very different places it seems)

PP 39%
UP 23%
Cs 18%
PSOE 16%
CC 1%

With weird polarized politics like that it's got to be an middle-upper class suburb or neighborhood of Madrid.

Well, with CC being an option and being in the same town as Velasco, it can't be Madrid :P

It is indeed a middle or upper-middle class suburb though. Also one of the more ex-urban kinds of suburb, not close at all to the city center.

CC got approximately the same votes as PACMA in LPGC ;D. The neighbourhood where I have my 'official' residence (I am registered there, but that doesn't imply I live there all the time) is working class with some middle class patches and is urban. Other places in town where I lived when I was a child are more PP leaning, though. Particularly in the precinct where is located the clinic where I was born and what was my grandparents' house the PP got more than 50% of the vote.

How are CC numbers in regional/municipal elections in LPGC??? Probably better than those numbers from the general election but I don't think much better.

Other question, how people see NCa vs CC?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 21, 2019, 06:24:31 PM
How are CC numbers in regional/municipal elections in LPGC??? Probably better than those numbers from the general election but I don't think much better.

Other question, how people see NCa vs CC?

The numbers are bad. LPGC is the most populous city in the Canary Islands and the CC's black hole. NC has better numbers, obviously. However NC has been always comparatively weaker in the capital, while it's stronger in the rest of the Gran Canaria island. Particularly the NC's historical strongholds are located in the GC1 corridor, a major road that runs through the east coast connecting the capital with the tourist resorts in the south (Maspalaomas-Playa del Inglés).

2015 regionalist vote in LPGC (local, regional and insular):

- In the local elections NC got 7.5% of the vote winning 2 councilors
CC got 3.2% of the vote failing to reach the 5% threshold to win councilors

- In the regional elections NC got 9.3% of the vote (18.4% in the Gran Canaria constituency) and CC got 3.6% (6.2% in Gran Canaria)

- Similarly in the elections for the Cabildo (insular government) NC performed worse in the capital (17% in LPGC and 26.5% in Gran Canaria), while the CC Numbers were uniform (5.4% in the capital and 5.6% overall).

NC came first in the elections for the Cabildo mostly due to the popularity of its candidate Antonio Morales, who got better results than party leader Román Rodríguez in regional elections. I voted for Morales, despite I'm not a big fan of his party. I backed him because he was the most viable candidate to defeat PP, as well he's decent and more palatable to me than the former CC premier Román Rodríguez (1999-2003).  

The rivalry between CC and NC is basically related to the pleito insular, that it's to say the rivalry between the two most populous islands: Tenerife and Gran Canaria. CC has been historically dominated by a party of Tenerife "independents" (mostly coming from UCD) called ATI*, which was the main component of a preexisting federation of insular parties. NC is a split of CC whose origin is the dispute for power between ATI and the Gran Canaria branch led by Román Rodríguez, who sought for another term as premier. I think there was some implicit agreement on rotating premiers from TF and GC that ATI wanted to break in order to place its candidate Paulino Rivero (2007-2015). The origins of the NC members are different from those of ATI, as many of them came from leftwing regionalist parties like Asamblea Canaria (AC-INC) or Unión del Pueblo Canario (UPC). Even former PCE members joined CC back in the day... However the ideology and principles of some leftist elements melted into the CC's big tent. Currently NC governs the Cabildo (in coalition with PSOE and 2 councilors formerly in Podemos), several GC municipalities and is part of the local government of LPGC (PSOE-Podemos-NC).

*The Tenerife Group of Independents (ATI) is ideologically right of the centre and has been the dominant political force in the island for many years at local, insular and regional levels. All the past and present CC premiers are from ATI, except Román Rodríguez.    


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Mike88 on April 22, 2019, 04:46:26 PM
Good showing from Rivera, it seems. Pablo Iglesias not bad, Sanchéz average and total car crash for Pablo Casado.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 22, 2019, 06:18:56 PM
Good showing from Rivera, it seems. Pablo Iglesias not bad, Sanchéz average and total car crash for Pablo Casado.

I couldn't see the whole debate, but there's another tomorrow night. A panel of 8 experts in El País gives the following verdict: Iglesias 4, Rivera 3, Sánchez 1, Casado 0.
 
https://elpais.com/politica/2019/04/22/actualidad/1555942966_982643.html


Iglesias resembled too much former IU leader Julio Anguita with his constant invocations to the constitution, but on the other hand it's a good way to counterattack the aggresive 'constitutionalism' of the right claiming that PSOE and Podemos are 'unconstitutional'. Both Iglesias and Rivera are good in TV debates, while Sánchez is average at best. Casado has experience in talk shows, but the experts consider that he crashed tonight.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DL on April 22, 2019, 08:21:50 PM
I gather the leader of Vox was not in the debate?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: MAINEiac4434 on April 22, 2019, 08:34:02 PM
I gather the leader of Vox was not in the debate?
IIRC Spanish debates are limited to parties that got a certain percentage of the vote in the previous election.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 23, 2019, 02:53:19 AM
I gather the leader of Vox was not in the debate?
IIRC Spanish debates are limited to parties that got a certain percentage of the vote in the previous election.

Indeed. Sánchez wanted to invite Vox, but election authorities ruled that it was not legal to invite them.

I think the criteria used by the election authorities was that only parties above 5% at a recient national election would get the right to take part in the debate.

In 2015 they could get around this for Podemos and Cs with a loophole, as Podemos got 8% in the 2014 European election and Cs got 6.5% nationwide in the local elections.

No such luck this time for Vox though, as their only election was the Andalucia regional one, but that was a regional, not national election.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: rc18 on April 23, 2019, 10:32:37 AM
Is that actually a bad thing for Vox though? Would they actually quite like the mantle of “outsider” going into these elections?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 23, 2019, 11:18:31 AM
Is that actually a bad thing for Vox though? Would they actually quite like the mantle of “outsider” going into these elections?

Not really. Many people think that it's better for Vox being outside in order to take the role of victim.  Additionally Vox leader Santiago Abascal lacks experience in debates,  as well as an dialectical tools or an elaborate discourse. While the four leaders debate again tonight Vox will organize a big campaing act in Las Rozas, an affluent PP stronghold near Madrid. They have their own agenda and are running a parallel campaign strongly focused on social networks. Abascal is making very few public appearances. Bolsonaro style.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 23, 2019, 11:35:35 AM
Is that actually a bad thing for Vox though? Would they actually quite like the mantle of “outsider” going into these elections?

Not really. Many people think that it's better for Vox being outside in order to take the role of victim.  Additionally Vox leader Santiago Abascal lacks experience in debates,  as well as an dialectical tools or an elaborate discourse. While the four leaders debate again tonight Vox will organize a big campaing act in Las Rozas, an affluent PP stronghold near Madrid. They have their own agenda and are running a parallel campaign strongly focused on social networks. Abascal is making very few public appearances. Bolsonaro style.

To be fair Bolsonaro did have a very big reason not to do public appearances.

As for Vox, they don't seem to me likme they are doing any less rallies than the other parties. Plus their ralies have huge attendance numbers apparently.

I believe if there's one party polls are underpolling, it has to be Vox. I certainly don't believe the polls giving them around 8%; they are clearly in double digits.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Zinneke on April 23, 2019, 12:05:56 PM
How can people seriously rate Rivera in debate performances. He came across as so overdramatic and rushed at the same time. His final speech basically akin to the kind of speech a sh**tty football coach gives to his team. Arrimadas was infinitely better in the debate previous to this one with the small parties. She is like an anaconda on any slip up her oponent lets on.  

In general the tone of the debates reflects the campaign though : lamentable.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 23, 2019, 12:13:06 PM
Abascal speaks at campaign rallies,  but he's much more elusive than other candidates and only talks to friendly media. Btw, Vox spokepersons are stating their intent to lock down not only public TV channels (including the golpista TV3, of course) but unfriendly private channels too...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 23, 2019, 12:18:02 PM
How can people seriously rate Rivera in debate performances. He came across as so overdramatic and rushed at the same time. His final speech basically akin to the kind of speech a sh**tty football coach gives to his team. Arrimadas was infinitely better in the debate previous to this one with the small parties. She is like an anaconda on any slip up her oponent lets on.  

In general the tone of the debates reflects the campaign though : lamentable.

I dislike Rivera too, but he clearly managed to gain ground to Casado appealing to the same audience target. The football coach call works with some voters, sadly.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 23, 2019, 04:42:51 PM
The final debate is being tough with Pablo Casado and Albert Rivera attacking Pedro Sánchez,  in open competition for the leadership of the Right. Many interruptions and too much finger-pointing. The fact check in media reveals the three told lies or inaccuracies. The only one who keeps a correct tone is Pablo Iglesias, and I'm not member of his fan club. In my ipinion the Podemos leader is the clear winner of the night...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 24, 2019, 07:05:20 AM
Last night's debate was marked by its harsh tone, the fight between Casado and Rivera for the leadership in the right and a clear divide between blocs with Pedro Sánchez saying a deal with Cs is not in his plans. Pablo Iglesias separated himself from the others, surprising many with his serene and propositive approach. Certainly his expectations are lower than three years ago, but this version of the Podemos leader is more likeable than the arrogant prick he was before. The Podemos leader is undoubtedly smart and once again he showed up as a good communicator. On the other hand, Casado recovered ground to an overacting and histrionic Rivera. Pedro Sánchez survived and sometimes it seemed he showed a half smile while his rivals in the right fought each other. Sánchez clashed with Rivera, partly because the Cs leader was annoying and partly to diminish Casado's protagonism. Iglesias came occasionally to defend Sánchez, assuming the role of guardian of the leftist essences and loyal collaborator. The sync beetween the candidates left of the centre was much better than that of the right.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/04/24/inenglish/1556088918_583955.html

Quote
“Divide and conquer” has been a classic combat strategy since the days of Julius Caesar. In Spain, the war over who gets to lead the political right played out openly on Tuesday night, during the second televised candidate debate ahead of the general election on Sunday.

The constant clashes between Pablo Casado and Albert Rivera, the leaders of the Popular Party (PP) and Ciudadanos (Citizens), meant that the prime minister, Pedro Sánchez of the Socialist Party (PSOE), was largely spared the onslaught that he had been expecting (...)

One of the highlights was the exchange of poisoned gifts between Rivera and Sánchez. Many people think their rivalry enters personal grounds and it seems obvious they loathe each other. After this debate the possibility of a PSOE-Cs agreement looks more unlikely than ever...

Quote
Sánchez and Rivera also had personal messages for one another, backed up by props they brought to the set of the state broadcaster TVE. The Ciudadanos candidate pulled out a copy of Sánchez’s doctoral thesis, alluding to a scandal over alleged plagiarism by the PM, and said: “Since today is Saint George’s Day [observed in Catalonia by exchanging gifts of books and roses], I’m going to give you a book you haven’t read, your own fake thesis.”

Sánchez was ready for this: he also produced a book, written by Vox leader Santiago Abascal and featuring a Spanish flag on the cover, “so you can see what you allies say.” Sánchez had been hoping to have Abascal at the debates in order to better illustrate his campaign message about “the three rights” that could govern Spain.

The tone reached such a low point that Iglesias, who remained in the zen mode he has adopted throughout the campaign, made a desperate plea: “I am feeling very embarrassed about the way this debate is going.”

Enric Juliana's assessment in La Vanguardia

Pedro Sánchez. More energetic and tighter than previous day. He repeatedly sought hand-to-hand combat with Rivera. He showed a letter suggesting the creation of blacklists in the Justice department of the Andalusian regional government managed by Cs with devastating effect. He broke with Cs and accused oranges of complicity with the far right.

Pablo Casado. He sought to get back on his feet and at times he managed to do so. His tone in the debate was more moderate than in campaign (but he showed up more combative than previous day), Visibly upset with Rivera.

Albert Rivera. This time he couldn't lead the way with the deal of brio he showed on Monday. Sánchez and Casado blocked him. He went too fast (overacting) and got lost with his constant interruptions to rivals.

Pablo Iglesias. Professoral, attenuated, controlled, constitutional, asking moderation to the other candidates. He was the most solid speaker and there will be consensus on proclaiming him the winner of the second debate. An unseen version of Iglesias defending Podemos as a party of government.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Zinneke on April 24, 2019, 09:05:10 AM
https://www.eldiario.es/politica/MINUTO-POLITICO-Recta-campana-decidir_13_892190773_26522.html

A leading candidate for the Madrid Community says the governance of the city centre in relation to reducing car emissions is all wrong because traffic jams when you go out to dinner are part of the city's heritage.

I am really starting to think the Spanish Right is the dumbest Right in Western Europe.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 24, 2019, 12:05:16 PM
https://www.eldiario.es/politica/MINUTO-POLITICO-Recta-campana-decidir_13_892190773_26522.html

A leading candidate for the Madrid Community says the governance of the city centre in relation to reducing car emissions is all wrong because traffic jams when you go out to dinner are part of the city's heritage.

I am really starting to think the Spanish Right is the dumbest Right in Western Europe.

Isabel Diaz Ayuso stands out as one of the dumbest PP candidates promoted by Casado. Maybe she's not the worst. Recently the PP candidate for Huelva in general elections said that Pedro Sánchez "seats at the table with violators and pedophiles". The daughter of Juan José Cortés was killed by one of those criminals and that's a tragedy, but the man does not have a skill level to run in elections. One of the 'new' Casado candidates is articulate and smart, case of Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo, but she's too radical and confrontational and has been placed in Barcelona to set fire to the flames with very bad prospects of electoral success. I think that Casado's PP is making the Vox campaign and most of the new set of candidates is mediocre. Sometimes is I miss the Rajoy's boring predictability.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 24, 2019, 05:58:39 PM
What a coincidence, shortly after the brilliant statements of the PP regional candidate in Madrid, Cs hires former Madrid premier Ängel Garrido to run in the regional list. Garrido replaced Cristina Cifuentes after her resignation over the master degree scandal and is a close friend of hers. The new orange team draftee sought to run as the PP's candidate for premiership, but Pablo Casado replaced him and appointed Isabel Díaz Ayuso. According to El País, Garrido decided to take revenge at Easter because his team of collaborators was relegated in the regional lists. Garrido had previously accepted to run in the 4th position of the PP list for the EP elections.

https://elpais.com/ccaa/2019/04/24/madrid/1556131657_186311.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 25, 2019, 10:02:41 AM
Facebook takes down far-right groups days before Spanish election

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/25/facebook-takes-down-far-right-groups-days-before-spanish-election

Quote
Facebook has taken down several networks that were spreading far-right content to nearly 1.7 million people in Spain, days before national elections that are expected to see a surge in support for the far-right Vox party.

The networks were uncovered in an investigation by the campaign group Avaaz, and taken down only after it presented Facebook with its findings.

The discovery of a large network, spreading politically sensitive content unmonitored days before a key European election, is likely to add to concerns about social media firms’ willingness and ability to control hate speech and criminal activity on their sites (...)

he largest network – Unidad Nacional Española (UNE) – had more than 1.2 million followers, and others reached hundreds of thousands more. Together they had more than 7 million interactions, at a time of intense political activity and focus on the political rise of the upstart far-right party Vox.

Pierre Moscovici: "We need a pro-European, proactive government in Spain"

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/04/25/inenglish/1556176223_194937.html

Quote
With little more than 72 hours to go before Spain holds a snap general election, the EU Commissioner for Economic and Financial Affairs, Pierre Moscovici, gave an interview in which he piled praise on the Spanish economy and played down the the signs of instability and political fragmentation, with one exception: the emergence of a far-right force, Vox.

“That paves the way for dangerous alliances,” laments the socialist politician, who has been on the frontline of European politics for a quarter of a century. “Far-right parties are a danger to European democracy.” Still, Moscovici feels that Spain has a large enough central bloc to prevent an Italian-style drift towards populist politics.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Rethliopuks on April 25, 2019, 06:41:52 PM
Is Electomania seriously getting around the polling ban by pretending to be talking about emojis?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 25, 2019, 08:49:36 PM
Is Electomania seriously getting around the polling ban by pretending to be talking about emojis?

The "Andorra fruit market" in previous elections was better. It was referring to the polls released by a paper from Andorra during the ban. I'm afraid the "emojipanel" is only a version of the "electopanel" and the latter is a fake poll. Our electoral law is more absurd than ever...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 25, 2019, 09:39:22 PM
()

Not sure if I'm the only one who's asked this, but... is there something resembling a possibility that shy Vox voters actually make it the largest party on the Right?


I mean Vox voters have been anything but shy,Vox surged following Andalusia in part because people now felt that they were a legitimate party. If there is another Vox surge its because polls fail to account for turnout (once again see Andalusia) or there is something going on post-debates that the polls cannot capture because of the ban.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: mileslunn on April 26, 2019, 02:00:15 AM
()

Not sure if I'm the only one who's asked this, but... is there something resembling a possibility that shy Vox voters actually make it the largest party on the Right?


What are PSOE and Podemos at in the screenshot?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Umengus on April 26, 2019, 03:51:43 AM
()

Not sure if I'm the only one who's asked this, but... is there something resembling a possibility that shy Vox voters actually make it the largest party on the Right?


I will not be suprised if Vox has 15%+ but to be first will be difficult. But not impossible.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: parochial boy on April 26, 2019, 04:18:26 AM
()

Not sure if I'm the only one who's asked this, but... is there something resembling a possibility that shy Vox voters actually make it the largest party on the Right?

it would require some pretty serious sampling errors to have been made by pretty much all of the posters. Far more than any sort of "shy" effect could seriously justify.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Skye on April 26, 2019, 04:36:02 AM
This is an extraordinary map of the 2016 results by precinct or census section

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/04/17/actualidad/1555522788_557334.html

Results in my precict were UP 33%, PP 28%, PSOE 23%, Cs 11%

()

Thank you so much for this!

Mi precinct looked like this:

PP 33
PSOE 32
UP 25
C's 11

It seems mine is the only blue precinct of the small barrio where I live. PSOE won the rest, even though the rest of the city is painted in blue.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 26, 2019, 06:21:40 AM
Is Electomania seriously getting around the polling ban by pretending to be talking about emojis?

Yes they are. Not quite the old "Andorra fruit market", but better than nothing. One of the more absurd things about Spanish election law.

And as Velasco said, the Electopanel is not a proper poll, but more like an online panel.

It's better than nothing, and they did perform remarkably well in the Andalusian election, but it's not a proper poll. In other words, we have absolutely no clues about what is going to happen.

As for Vox coming in first for the right, it's very unlikely. An scenario like 2015 but on the right is more likely though (Vox coming third and remarkably close to PP; like 1-2 points behind just like UP in 2015 came within 1.5% of PSOE)

There certainly can be a polling error that puts Vox way up ahead, but not sure if even that would be enough to put them in first.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 26, 2019, 06:43:53 AM
Also, just realized I haven't posted any campaign posters/Slogans. So since today is the last campaign day, here you go!

PSOE: Make it happen / The Spain you want

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PP: Safe value

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Cs: Let's go Ciudadanos

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UP: History is written by you

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Vox: For Spain

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PACMA: Join the Re-evolution
()



Regional parties. Posting only links in order not to make this too large.

ERC: It's about freedom
https://www.segre.com/uploads/imagenes/bajacalidad/2019/04/14/_41768210_ba719594.jpg?d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e

JxCat: You are our voice, you are our strength
https://www.segre.com/uploads/imagenes/bajacalidad/2019/04/14/_41768211_71765438.jpg?d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e

PNV: The Basque Country moves us, zurea gurea (no idea what that means)
https://www.eaj-pnv.eus/img/ho19/eaj-facebook-orokorrak19.jpg

Bildu: To advance
(Can't find an actual campaign poster, so here's a random rally)
https://static.deia.eus/images/2019/04/18/acto-electoral-de-eh-18931073_31851_11.jpg

CC: Fighting for the Canaries
http://ccfuerteventura.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/pegada-carteles-4.jpg

Compromís: Unstoppable
https://www.elperiodic.com/archivos/imagenes/noticias/2019/03/27/baldo-imparables-28a.jpeg

BNG: Galicia now
https://www.adiantegalicia.es/upload/images/carteles-bng.jpg

NCa: To defend the Canaries / Canaries with a future
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Qa_I0_4zipc/XK_O7pfMO9I/AAAAAAABFAs/amjHtcIfNqksQwQ-KJSL9VCVaEI9-z1lQCLcBGAs/s1600/Nueva%2BCanarias%2Barranc%25C3%25B3%2Bsu%2Bcampa%25C3%25B1a%2Belectoral%2B%2Bdel%2B28-A%2Ben%2Bla%2Bmedianoche%2Bdel%2Bjueves%2Bcon%2Bla%2Btradicional%2Bpegada%2Bde%2Bcarteles%2B2.jpg

PRC: Cantabria wins
https://www.publico.es/tremending/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/revilla-1132x670.jpg

(yes, that's a meme, couldn't find a proper pic but the poster itself is unaltered)

FR: We are a wall: Republic / Vote a breakdown, vote republic
https://www.rac1.cat/r/GODO/R1/p0/WebSite/Imagenes/2019/04/12/img_20190412-143245_muntat_front_repub-kPQH--1084x766@RAC1-Web.jpg

These are all the regional parties with a chance at a seat.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 26, 2019, 10:20:41 AM
Not sure if I'm the only one who's asked this, but... is there something resembling a possibility that shy Vox voters actually make it the largest party on the Right?

It's nearly impossible that Vox becomes the largest party in the right. However, from what I've been collecting and without polling evidence, there could be a Vox surge in the last minute pushing the far right to 15% and not far from the third place (in competition with Cs and UP). Right now the WhatsApp groups must be coming from the wound with fake news and propaganda. In case this surge happens, it'd be at the expense of PP and Cs but also on the mobilization of angered voters who don't believe in politics anymore (thus support antipolitics). PP's campaign staff assumes the loses will be big but the conservatives would call victory if a Vox surge brings them back to power. Some people feel the PSOE's progression halted and now socialists are below the 30% mark. UP might have recovered some ground thanks to the revelations on the dirty war against the purples during the Rajoy administration and the good performance of Pablo Iglesias in the TV debates.

I'm not making a prediction and I hope the Franco's comeback won't happen, but I'm crossing fingers and preparing myself for the most dangerous possibility. Just in case. Also, take into account the election of Donald Trump in 2016 was something like the accession to the throne of Caligula and his horse. This created a bandwagon effect in the rest of the wold (Bolsonaro, Salvini, etcetera).

In the news, Casado considers the possibility of including Vox in government in case of rightwing majority.

Pedro Sánchez: "There is a real risk that the right could join with the far right"

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/04/26/inenglish/1556261539_359058.html

Quote
Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez of the Socialist Party (PSOE) is heading toward what might be his first election win after being defeated twice at the polls, ousted by his own party, and then returning victorious in party primaries and leading a successful vote of no confidence against Mariano Rajoy of the conservative Popular Party (PP).

Polls suggest Sánchez will win the highest number of seats in Congress at the general election this Sunday, April 28, but fall short of an absolute majority. Amid this uncertainty, the PSOE leader is hoping to mobilize the left to avoid a repetition of the election results in Andalusia, where the right-wing parties PP and Ciudadanos (Citizens) formed a government after an inconclusive election result thanks to the support of the far-right party Vox.

The following is an edited version of the original interview in Spanish (...)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: rob in cal on April 26, 2019, 10:50:20 AM
  Any sense of what  the combined seat total of PSOE plus UP would be for a viable Sanchez government?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 26, 2019, 11:24:49 AM
 Any sense of what  the combined seat total of PSOE plus UP would be for a viable Sanchez government?

176?... The Catalans brought down this govt after all. The combined vote total doesn't need to be 50%+1 though, likely something around 43%.

Potential Govts:

1) Pure Left: PSOE+Podemos
2) Pure Right: PP+C's+Vox
3) Centrist, if nothing else works: PSOE+C's
4) The chaos from 2015/16 continues, and small parties are needed

Sanchez has been dealt the winning hand though, he just needs to play his cards right (And he has for a while now).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 26, 2019, 11:41:50 AM
  Any sense of what  the combined seat total of PSOE plus UP would be for a viable Sanchez government?

The best result for the left would be a seat count that makes the support of catalan separatists unnecesary. Given that PNV will win around 6 seats and Compromis might win 3, I'd say more than 165. Below that mark ERC would become decisive for the conformation of majorities. Also, it'd be important the combined seats of PSOE, UP, PNV and Compromis exceed those of PP, Cs and Vox. In that case Pedro Sánchez could pass a second investiture vote with the abstention of the catalan separatists.  The more decisive are the latter, the more unstable and weak will be a leftwing government.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 26, 2019, 12:04:38 PM
  Any sense of what  the combined seat total of PSOE plus UP would be for a viable Sanchez government?

Most likely 167. Combined with an expected 6 for PNV and 3 for Compromis that would add up to 176.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 26, 2019, 12:05:13 PM
I'm crossing fingers and preparing myself

Same. Going to shul now, on this special occasion I will be praying for Vox and the right 🙏🏻


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 26, 2019, 02:07:08 PM
I'm crossing fingers and preparing myself

Same. Going to shul now, on this special occasion I will be praying for Vox and the right 🙏🏻

 
Fernando Paz, who leads the VOX list in Albacete, who questioned the Holocaust and called the Nuremberg Trials a Farce, will be getting your special prayers undoubtably?

https://www.larazon.es/espana/los-judios-preocupados-por-las-declaraciones-del-candidato-de-vox-por-albacete-IE22510495

In Vox's defense (never thought I'd say that), they did eventually have to take him out of the list

https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20190321/461160389167/fernando-paz-vox-albacete-renuncia-caceria-mediatica.html

They do have plenty of other "colourful" candidates, including 2 pro-Francoist former generals


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 26, 2019, 02:24:11 PM
I'm crossing fingers and preparing myself

Same. Going to shul now, on this special occasion I will be praying for Vox and the right 🙏🏻

 
Fernando Paz, who leads the VOX list in Albacete, who questioned the Holocaust and called the Nuremberg Trials a Farce, will be getting your special prayers undoubtably?

https://www.larazon.es/espana/los-judios-preocupados-por-las-declaraciones-del-candidato-de-vox-por-albacete-IE22510495

In Vox's defense (never thought I'd say that), they did eventually have to take him out of the list

https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20190321/461160389167/fernando-paz-vox-albacete-renuncia-caceria-mediatica.html

They do have plenty of other "colourful" candidates, including 2 pro-Francoist former generals

I think that I said it before, but Vox didn't take him out based on moral scruples. Far from that, Vox asked him to 'resign' because an Holocaust negationist was not acceptable for the Vox's friends in the Alt-Right wing of the Republican Party (and by extension certain powerful donors linked to them, as well as the Israeli Right). Also, the Jewish community in Spain is small but it has good connections with the Spanish mainstream right and the business world. There was an obvious concern regarding possible coalition partners with candidates showing Nazi sympathies...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 26, 2019, 05:00:51 PM
With the campaign coming to a close, here is my prediction

PSOE: 27% (110)
PP: 21% (79)
UP: 15,5% (50)
Cs: 15,5% (49)
Vox: 11% (32)
PACMA: 2% (1)

ERC: 3% (10)
JxCat: 1,5% (5)
PNV: 1,2% (6)
Compromís: 1,1% (3)
Bildu: 0,8% (3)
BNG: 0,5% (0)
FR: 0,4% (1)
CC: 0,3% (1)
PRC: 0,15% (0)
NCa: 0,15% (0)

By bloc:

Right: 47.5% (160)
Left: 42.5% (160)
PSOE-Cs: 42.5% (159)

End result: Big mess, new elections in October


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 26, 2019, 06:28:50 PM
With the campaign coming to a close, here is my prediction

PSOE: 27% (110)
PP: 21% (79)
UP: 15,5% (50)
Cs: 15,5% (49)
Vox: 11% (32)
PACMA: 2% (1)

ERC: 3% (10)
JxCat: 1,5% (5)
PNV: 1,2% (6)
Compromís: 1,1% (3)
Bildu: 0,8% (3)
BNG: 0,5% (0)
FR: 0,4% (1)
CC: 0,3% (1)
PRC: 0,15% (0)
NCa: 0,15% (0)
NCa: 0,15% (0)

By bloc:

Right: 47.5% (160)
Left: 42.5% (160)
PSOE-Cs: 42.5% (159)

End result: Big mess, new elections in October

I take it you are expressing pessimism?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 26, 2019, 06:37:48 PM
With the campaign coming to a close, here is my prediction

PSOE: 27% (110)
PP: 21% (79)
UP: 15,5% (50)
Cs: 15,5% (49)
Vox: 11% (32)
PACMA: 2% (1)

ERC: 3% (10)
JxCat: 1,5% (5)
PNV: 1,2% (6)
Compromís: 1,1% (3)
Bildu: 0,8% (3)
BNG: 0,5% (0)
FR: 0,4% (1)
CC: 0,3% (1)
PRC: 0,15% (0)
NCa: 0,15% (0)
NCa: 0,15% (0)

By bloc:

Right: 47.5% (160)
Left: 42.5% (160)
PSOE-Cs: 42.5% (159)

End result: Big mess, new elections in October

I take it you are expressing pessimism?

Yeah, somewhat, particularly for PSOE; but my prediction isn't that pessimistic and could be worse (like say a PP-Cs-Vox majority)

In fact if you believe ERC would support Sánchez this result would actually give him a decent working majority of PSOE-UP-ERC-PNV, with no need for PDECat.

Plus the option of a "coalition of chaos" that excludes the Catalans (PSOE-UP-PNV-Bildu-Compromís-PACMA) would be at 173, only 2 seats short of a majority. Though that is still 2 seats short.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 26, 2019, 06:45:04 PM
With the campaign coming to a close, here is my prediction

PSOE: 27% (110)
PP: 21% (79)
UP: 15,5% (50)
Cs: 15,5% (49)
Vox: 11% (32)
PACMA: 2% (1)

ERC: 3% (10)
JxCat: 1,5% (5)
PNV: 1,2% (6)
Compromís: 1,1% (3)
Bildu: 0,8% (3)
BNG: 0,5% (0)
FR: 0,4% (1)
CC: 0,3% (1)
PRC: 0,15% (0)
NCa: 0,15% (0)
NCa: 0,15% (0)

By bloc:

Right: 47.5% (160)
Left: 42.5% (160)
PSOE-Cs: 42.5% (159)

End result: Big mess, new elections in October

I take it you are expressing pessimism?

Yeah, somewhat, particularly for PSOE; but my prediction isn't that pessimistic and could be worse (like say a PP-Cs-Vox majority)

In fact if you believe ERC would support Sánchez this result would actually give him a decent working majority of PSOE-UP-ERC-PNV, with no need for PDECat.

Plus the option of a "coalition of chaos" that excludes the Catalans (PSOE-UP-PNV-Bildu-Compromís-PACMA) would be at 173, only 2 seats short of a majority. Though that is still 2 seats short.

I was thinking more in the vein of 'chaos.' Math, polls, and the MOE denitely seems to favor Spain getting a govt, rather then returning to 2015. But chaos is certainly a option.

For example, one situation we are discussing is a Vox surge. But such a surge (say 2-3%) likely pulls overwhelmingly from PP. Because of D'hodt, this likely causes the conservatives to lose seats overall thanks to the vote cut. PSOE from a govt. But if Vox pulls and surges based on turnout, and PP retains their vote, then theres a conservative govt as the left looses % overall.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 26, 2019, 06:58:46 PM
Guess PSOE will win some more anti-right voters causing UP to lose some more. Also think Vox is being underpolled again. The right should hope turnout will remain low and left-wingers are lulled into sleep thinking the right won't reach a majority due to Sanchez' strong campaign, but the sheer gap between PSOE and PP means PSOE will get a really beneficial vote-seat ratio. I think the right will either win a razor-thin majority or will be extremely close to having one.

PSOE 28%, PP 19%, Cs 16%, Vox 14%, UP 10%.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 26, 2019, 07:41:31 PM
I personally believe chaos and no government is the most likely option. I am very pessimistic about ERC's chances of supporting Sánchez, and those are at least 11 seats that he desperately needs and won't get. Without the Catalans, Sánchez's chances of forming government drop drastically.

On the other hand, the right also seems unlikely to get a majority and unlike the left, they can't rely on any regional parties whatsoever (not even CC would support a Vox-backed government)

Of the 3 combinations, I think PSOE-Cs would be the most likely, but after Cs has rejected it so harshly, I doubt it's happening. Plus it's unclear if it would add up in the first place. This one can rely a bit more on regional allies, but not much more. CC would certainly support this, and so would PRC (if they get in), but that's 2 seats at most (and most likely just one). I thought PNV could support this, but after Cs' hardline campaign and extremely harsh critizism of the Basque economic arrangement, it isn't happening.

So overall, probably chaos, but it all depends on what ERC does.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Lord Halifax on April 26, 2019, 07:45:22 PM
I personally believe chaos and no government is the most likely option.

How long will it take before we get new elections then?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 26, 2019, 07:50:22 PM
I personally believe chaos and no government is the most likely option.

How long will it take before we get new elections then?

It's a fixed date from the day the confidence vote happens. My rough estimate would be a 2nd election some time after the summer, probably in autumn. Last time that happened the election was in December and the repeat election in June. So expect approximately 6 months between elections.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Tender Branson on April 27, 2019, 12:40:12 AM
VOX leader Santi Abascal reminds me of a Spanish version of Salvini in Italy, which means VOX should perform really well tomorrow.

My prediction therefore is as followed:

27.3% PSOE (+4.7%)
20.6% PP (-12.4%)
17.1% VOX (+16.9%)
14.2% Cs (+1.1%)
13.5% UP (-7.7%)
  7.3% Others

51.9% Right (+5.6%)
40.8% Left (-3.0%)

Turnout: 70.4% (+3.9%) - this is based on all eligible voters incl. Spanish voters abroad


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 27, 2019, 04:54:50 AM
VOX leader Santi Abascal reminds me of a Spanish version of Salvini in Italy, which means VOX should perform really well tomorrow.

I think Santiago Abascal has little in common with Matteo Salvini, leaving aside that both are far right demagogues and have a beard. One of the main differences between Vox and other far right parties like Lega in Italy is the lack of a charismatic link between the party leader and his voters. In the case of Spain the Vox trademark is stronger than Abascal.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Skye on April 27, 2019, 04:57:07 AM
VOX leader Santi Abascal reminds me of a Spanish version of Salvini in Italy, which means VOX should perform really well tomorrow.

I think Santiago Abascal has little in common with Matteo Salvini, leaving aside that both are far right demagogues and have a beard. One of the main differences between Vox and other far right parties like Lega in Italy is the lack of a charismatic link between the party leader and his voters. In the case of Spain the Vox trademark is stronger than Abascal.



Welp.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 27, 2019, 05:02:33 AM
Is that Vox slogan "España Viva" viewed as a dog whistle to the slogan in the Franco era (the one starting with "España una") or does it not have that connotation?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: windjammer on April 27, 2019, 05:09:27 AM
The right is going to win the election.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 27, 2019, 05:12:58 AM
They belong to the same political family and it's obvious that Salvini supports Abascal and not Sánchez. What proves and what's the point in embedding tweets like that?

Is that Vox slogan "España Viva" viewed as a dog whistle to the slogan in the Franco era (the one starting with "España una") or does it not have that connotation?

Do you mean "Una, Grande y Libre"? "España Viva" might have that connotation for some people, likewise a slogan like "Make Spain Great Again" could be interpreted in that way. I think it's obvious the Franco's spirit is there, but Vox is not campaigning on overtly Francoist slogans.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Skye on April 27, 2019, 05:20:50 AM
They belong to the same political family and it's obvious that Salvini supports Abascal and not Sánchez. What proves and what's the point in embedding tweets like that?

Since you had just stated that they aren't similar and Salvini tweeted an endorsement? Didn't Salvini use to advocate for the separatists in the past? I dunno, I don't think I really "get" Europe's politics yet.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Zinneke on April 27, 2019, 05:37:00 AM
They belong to the same political family and it's obvious that Salvini supports Abascal and not Sánchez. What proves and what's the point in embedding tweets like that?

Since you had just stated that they aren't similar and Salvini tweeted an endorsement? Didn't Salvini use to advocate for the separatists in the past? I dunno, I don't think I really "get" Europe's politics yet.

Lega yes, Salvini not so much.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 27, 2019, 06:30:01 AM
They belong to the same political family and it's obvious that Salvini supports Abascal and not Sánchez. What proves and what's the point in embedding tweets like that?

Since you had just stated that they aren't similar and Salvini tweeted an endorsement? Didn't Salvini use to advocate for the separatists in the past? I dunno, I don't think I really "get" Europe's politics yet.

Lega yes, Salvini not so much.

Obviously I was referring to the style of leadership. Salvini is a charismatic leader; Abascal is not.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 27, 2019, 06:36:17 AM
The right is going to win the election.

Well, you need to define "win".

Win the popular vote? Yeah, that is almost a certainty. Almost all polls seem to give the right an advantage of somewhere around 5 points. There is only one poll or 2 predicting a left wing victory in the popular vote and even those give narrow victories of 1 point

Win more seats than the left? That one is iffy. Because of the way Spanish elections work, with a somewhat but not fully proportional system; this one is doable but far from a certainty. I'd give it a 50% chance of happening

Being able to actually make government?. This one, while possible, is actually unlikely, I'd give it a 20-25% chance of happening. The right is a heavy underdog for this because while PSOE-UP could theoretically get into government with as little as 155 seats (if you assume getting ERC is doable), the right needs at least 176 as they can't rely in any regional parties whatsoever, not even the Canarians.

The right can easily win, but for a PP-Cs-Vox government, winning is not enough, they need to win big.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: parochial boy on April 27, 2019, 06:58:37 AM
Where is PACMA's best shot of winning a seat? Madrid presumably?

Also, everyone assuming that VOX will surge by 3 points over all the polling... remember that everyone expected the same thing in France, and Sweden, and in both cases neither happens. VOX having virtually no electoral history or "last time voters" makes them harder to poll, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the polls are massively underestimating them.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 27, 2019, 07:54:33 AM
Where is PACMA's best shot of winning a seat? Madrid presumably?

According to the CIS, Barcelona and Valencia. I think Barcelona and Madrid, in this order. In both cases it's enough to get 3% of the vote to win a seat in Congress. PACMA performed slightly better in Barcelona (1.8%) with regard to Madrid (1.1%) in 2016.

Also, everyone assuming that VOX will surge by 3 points over all the polling... remember that everyone expected the same thing in France, and Sweden, and in both cases neither happens. VOX having virtually no electoral history or "last time voters" makes them harder to poll, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the polls are massively underestimating them.

Yes, that surge in the last minute is only a possibility. Additionally the demoscopic silence forced by our electoral law helps to spread rumours and foster fantasy. The theory of a Vox surge is based on the precedent of the Andalusian elections, when opinion polls undetected its real strength because the final rush occurred in the last days during the polling ban. People guess if there's a "shy effect" it would affect Vox. The far right party is expected to perform strongly in Madrid, Castilla, Andalusia, Murcia or Valencia. However the Vox results in Catalonia, Basque Country or Galicia will be presumaably weak. There will be surprises omorrow night, that's for sure. Vox has chances to come in third place, but maybe it won't fulfill some expectations or flights of imagination (or maybe it will, who knows). I think the game is open and nothing is written.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: urutzizu on April 27, 2019, 08:13:23 AM
Where is PACMA's best shot of winning a seat? Madrid presumably?

Also, everyone assuming that VOX will surge by 3 points over all the polling... remember that everyone expected the same thing in France, and Sweden, and in both cases neither happens. VOX having virtually no electoral history or "last time voters" makes them harder to poll, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the polls are massively underestimating them.

The issue about Populist parties like VOX, RN, Lega, AFD and SD is that they do not have any sort of loyal voter base, like PP and PSOE. Like Podemos and Cs they came out of nowhere, and could disappear just as quickly, as their voters find another party to channel their hatred/disgust of the establishment, corruption, immigrants, catalans... I think they could depending on the circumstances either do way better than polls expect (like Brexit, Finns, AFD, Salvini) or way worse like (FN and SD). I suspect the former, but both is equally possible.  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jaichind on April 27, 2019, 08:18:21 AM
Assuming PSOE-UP does not get the numbers to form a government, under what circumstances will C join up with PSOE?  I assume if the PP-C gap is small then C will prefer to stay in opposition so it can overtake PP as the main party of the Right while a large PP-C gap would see C join up with PSOE?  If so I guess there is a contradiction since a weaker C performance also means that a PSOE-C alliance might not be able to form a stable government.     


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 27, 2019, 08:23:28 AM
PSOE-C would require a huge 180 on behalf of Rivera. Which he could do because he's done it before, but after his present campaign it would be even more difficult. And he himself seems much more of a right-winger than he liked to admit, though he's showing more of his true colors now.

I think Rivera has made a strategic mistake by aligning himself to the right to such an extent, which weakens both the combined right and C's by causing PSOE-C swing voters who don't necessarily appreciate PP (let alone Vox) to move to the PSOE. Might as well just shut up about your coalition preferences, win more votes, join a right-wing coalition (or even lead it), and have these voters leave you for PSOE afterwards while you're in government anyway.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Rethliopuks on April 27, 2019, 08:30:43 AM
A huge proportion of people aren't decided. I'm worried if more of them are right wing voters than left wing ones...especially because it makes sense given how unstablised the right wing is I guess?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: parochial boy on April 27, 2019, 08:34:14 AM
Where is PACMA's best shot of winning a seat? Madrid presumably?

Also, everyone assuming that VOX will surge by 3 points over all the polling... remember that everyone expected the same thing in France, and Sweden, and in both cases neither happens. VOX having virtually no electoral history or "last time voters" makes them harder to poll, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the polls are massively underestimating them.

The issue about Populist parties like VOX, RN, Lega, AFD and SD is that they do not have any sort of loyal voter base, like PP and PSOE. Like Podemos and Cs they came out of nowhere, and could disappear just as quickly, as their voters find another party to channel their hatred/disgust of the establishment, corruption, immigrants, catalans... I think they could depending on the circumstances either do way better than polls expect (like Brexit, Finns, AFD, Salvini) or way worse like (FN and SD). I suspect the former, but both is equally possible. 

Well, RN in particular do have a well established electorate, which is why the pollsters tend to get them right (going off topic a bit - in the first round at least, in the second round the pollsters were wrong because it meant trying to understand how many non-FN voters would choose Le Pen, which was a situation that hadn't really happened before and was therefore harder to poll...).

With pollsters getting RWPP scores wrong, it is usually down to them simply asking the wrong people/sampling wrong/estimating "likelyhood to vote" etc.. wrong, rather than a "shy voter" effect - which imo, is an effect that people tend to massively overestimate. In particular, your "normal" RWPP voter tends to be someone who is harder to reach through conventional phone or internet poll (older, less educated, lower income, potentially less politically motivated and therefore less likely to answer the phone or sign up to an online panel). However, with VOX, iirc, one of the things that came out of Andalusia is that their electorate tends to be a little bit different to the clichéd "left behind working class" RWPP voter (which is, of course, nowhere near as accurate as is commonly presented). Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think they were often demographically closer to the traditional right-wing/PP voter than, say, Le Pen voters in the rural east of France, which has always been volatile.

Anyway, what I'm saying is, yeah, there is a very good chance they are being polled incorrectly - but it could go in either direction - and it probably isn't correct to call it a "shy voter" effect.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 27, 2019, 08:42:06 AM
Assuming PSOE-UP does not get the numbers to form a government, under what circumstances will C join up with PSOE?  I assume if the PP-C gap is small then C will prefer to stay in opposition so it can overtake PP as the main party of the Right while a large PP-C gap would see C join up with PSOE?  If so I guess there is a contradiction since a weaker C performance also means that a PSOE-C alliance might not be able to form a stable government.     

If Cs is to be believed, maybe, maybe they would support a PSOE-Cs government led by someone else instead of Sánchez; presumably led by a moderate like Susana Díaz (though after the Andalusian election, probably not her especifically)

But even that seems unlikely as they have shifted extremely hard to the right. Plus Cs' efforts to remove Rajoy as PP leader in 2016 failed and I can't see them succeeding this time.

If Vox overtakes Cs (meaning a weak PP government or a 3 way coalition) or even worse, PP (meaning PM Abascal) then things with PSOE-Cs would get more interesting. But if the order is PP-Cs-Vox, I can't see any way for PSOE-Cs to happen.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: SPQR on April 27, 2019, 08:56:49 AM
Has Rivera explicitly said that he would form a government with PP and Vox?

Anyway, I agree that, from the Andalusia results, the Vox electorate was more PP-like than RWPP-like.
Might be that, as they become more and more known nation-wide, they manage to reach also the latter votes.
This also seems to me the only chance for a rightwing government.

Things have definitely changed a lot from when Sanchez was forced to step down a while ago, anyway...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: SPQR on April 27, 2019, 09:00:06 AM
VOX leader Santi Abascal reminds me of a Spanish version of Salvini in Italy, which means VOX should perform really well tomorrow.
I think Santiago Abascal has little in common with Matteo Salvini, leaving aside that both are far right demagogues and have a beard. One of the main differences between Vox and other far right parties like Lega in Italy is the lack of a charismatic link between the party leader and his voters. In the case of Spain the Vox trademark is stronger than Abascal.

Exactly.
Lega was slowly disappearing when Salvini became secretary, after scandals concerning the theft of 49 million euros. He single-handedly changed it from a northern secessionist right-wing party to a national and nationalist RWPP, in large part also thanks to his communication style and his spin doctors.
It's clear that Salvini supports Vox, as much as he supports any right-wing anti-establishment party aroun the globe. He's also looking for support for his new group in the European Parliament. But that doesn't mean that Abascal is Salvini-like (except for the beard and the ugliness).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: MaxQue on April 27, 2019, 10:40:51 AM
PSOE-C would require a huge 180 on behalf of Rivera. Which he could do because he's done it before, but after his present campaign it would be even more difficult. And he himself seems much more of a right-winger than he liked to admit, though he's showing more of his true colors now.

I think Rivera has made a strategic mistake by aligning himself to the right to such an extent, which weakens both the combined right and C's by causing PSOE-C swing voters who don't necessarily appreciate PP (let alone Vox) to move to the PSOE. Might as well just shut up about your coalition preferences, win more votes, join a right-wing coalition (or even lead it), and have these voters leave you for PSOE afterwards while you're in government anyway.

They pretty mcuh no choice, they did that move when all the voters who supported for their hardline about Catalans moved to Vox/PP and they fell in polls to nearly 10%.

It was a choice between either confirming their new selling point or giving up on it and searching a new one (but an electoral campaign isn't the time to do that).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Tender Branson on April 27, 2019, 10:42:09 AM
Anyway, the myth that Spain is immune to far-right populist parties will crash and burn tomorrow.

And from what I have read, it will crash and burn pretty hard, as VOX has a very successful outreach campaign on the ground and will end up with 15-20%.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 27, 2019, 10:48:18 AM
And from what I have read, it will crash and burn pretty hard, as VOX has a very successful outreach campaign on the ground and will end up with 15-20%.
Not impossible (and from your lips to God's ears), but sounds way too high and would certainly require a massive polling error. Placing my bets on 12-14% territory.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Tender Branson on April 27, 2019, 10:53:43 AM
And from what I have read, it will crash and burn pretty hard, as VOX has a very successful outreach campaign on the ground and will end up with 15-20%.
Not impossible (and from your lips to God's ears), but sounds way too high and would certainly require a massive polling error. Placing my bets on 12-14% territory.

It seems you are taking the more conservative approach in guesstimating the result, while I take the more realistic one. Years of massive unemployment, dissatisfaction with life and misery among a very large group of Spanish voters, imported crime and immigration from Africa and the Middle East (tolerated by the Socialist PM) and their likelihood to support fast rising startup parties like Cs and Podemos in the past suggest that there could be some massive polling error tomorrow and that voters are not telling pollsters their true intentions.

But I don't know much about Spain and what is true in other countries may not be true there, so my prediction could also be completely nuts.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Mike88 on April 27, 2019, 10:54:03 AM
A very critical factor will be turnout. Spain always had high turnout rates, but, the unpopularity of the main parties, plus the fact that all seem quite bad, could mean that turnout could fall to the lowest rate ever. This will heavily impact the balance between the left and right blocs.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Diouf on April 27, 2019, 11:02:16 AM
A very critical factor will be turnout. Spain always had high turnout rates, but, the unpopularity of the main parties, plus the fact that all seem quite bad, could mean that turnout could fall to the lowest rate ever. This will heavily impact the balance between the left and right blocs.

These kind of things are hard to gauge. But there are also things suggesting higher turnout this time. 2016 was so soon after the previous election, so there might have been some fatigue. Also, I think we have seen elsewhere a turnout boost when anti-immigration parties surge in the polls as they tend to attract many previous non-voters. Also the polarizing climate between the right-wing parties and independence movements might motivate more persons to go vote.
On the other hand, I guess Podemos' downturn could be partly due to their voters sitting out. Disappointed with the party's disunity, and lack of ability to affect real change?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 27, 2019, 11:16:42 AM
And from what I have read, it will crash and burn pretty hard, as VOX has a very successful outreach campaign on the ground and will end up with 15-20%.
Not impossible (and from your lips to God's ears), but sounds way too high and would certainly require a massive polling error. Placing my bets on 12-14% territory.

It seems you are taking the more conservative approach in guesstimating the result, while I take the more realistic one. Years of massive unemployment, dissatisfaction with life and misery among a very large group of Spanish voters, imported crime and immigration from Africa and the Middle East (tolerated by the Socialist PM) and their likelihood to support fast rising startup parties like Cs and Podemos in the past suggest that there could be some massive polling error tomorrow and that voters are not telling pollsters their true intentions.

But I don't know much about Spain and what is true in other countries may not be true there, so my prediction could also be completely nuts.

I understand your joy and happiness with the Vox surge in Spain, since you share a similar eorldview. However this post shows your deep ignorance of Spanish politics, as you admit in the last paragraph. I will have to ask you to read something before you post here. I would never dare to poke my nose into the Austrian thread without a mimimum knowledge of issues, or at least a minimum interest to understand the reality of the country. Please, go away with your Breitbart and your Tweeter


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Mike88 on April 27, 2019, 11:16:59 AM
A very critical factor will be turnout. Spain always had high turnout rates, but, the unpopularity of the main parties, plus the fact that all seem quite bad, could mean that turnout could fall to the lowest rate ever. This will heavily impact the balance between the left and right blocs.

These kind of things are hard to gauge. But there are also things suggesting higher turnout this time. 2016 was so soon after the previous election, so there might have been some fatigue. Also, I think we have seen elsewhere a turnout boost when anti-immigration parties surge in the polls as they tend to attract many previous non-voters. Also the polarizing climate between the right-wing parties and independence movements might motivate more persons to go vote.
On the other hand, I guess Podemos' downturn could be partly due to their voters sitting out. Disappointed with the party's disunity, and lack of ability to affect real change?
It's just my hunch, of course, and you're right that there also also things that could make turnout increase on both sides. But, look what happened in Andalusia last year. Turnout was only 56%, with a huge depressed PSOE electorate and a unprecedented surge of Vox voters coming from the two main parties.

My view is that the majority of undecided voters are centrist/center-right voters who don't know what to do. They don't like Sanchéz, feel that the PP has become desperate, that C's is flip floping on many things and Vox, well, could be just unacceptable. They may just stay home. This time around, low turnout could benefit the left. We'll see.

Nonetheless, the level of uncertainty, drama and fear is unprecedented in Spanish politics.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Tender Branson on April 27, 2019, 11:22:22 AM
And from what I have read, it will crash and burn pretty hard, as VOX has a very successful outreach campaign on the ground and will end up with 15-20%.
Not impossible (and from your lips to God's ears), but sounds way too high and would certainly require a massive polling error. Placing my bets on 12-14% territory.

It seems you are taking the more conservative approach in guesstimating the result, while I take the more realistic one. Years of massive unemployment, dissatisfaction with life and misery among a very large group of Spanish voters, imported crime and immigration from Africa and the Middle East (tolerated by the Socialist PM) and their likelihood to support fast rising startup parties like Cs and Podemos in the past suggest that there could be some massive polling error tomorrow and that voters are not telling pollsters their true intentions.

But I don't know much about Spain and what is true in other countries may not be true there, so my prediction could also be completely nuts.

I understand your joy and happiness with the Vox surge in Spain, since you share a similar eorldview. However this post shows your deep ignorance of Spanish politics, as you admit in the last paragraph. I will have to ask you to read something before you post here. I would never dare to poke my nose into the Austrian thread without a mimimum knowledge of issues, or at least a minimun interest to understand the reality of the country. Please, go away with your Breitbart and your Tweeter

A) I can post my 1 or 2 cents on any topic or issue and on any thread I want, even in the Spanish election thread.

B) I do share some points with VOX on immigration, for sure. But I also oppose many other of their positions such as the abortion ban, the dissolution of the Spanish regions or their hostility to the media and press freedom. Just because I share their common-sense view on immigration, it doesn't make me a Breitbarterer or a supporter of VOX as you falsely claim.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 27, 2019, 11:37:25 AM
You can post your two cents as long as you are respectful. That post of yours is not respectful and is plenty of inaccuracies. I think it's obvious that you share the same worldviews of the far right. Opinion is free. Trolling, falsehood and disrespect are not. I think you don't have an actual interest in Spain and there are plenty threads where uou can share your hatred of immigrants. Please, Tender, go.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Tender Branson on April 27, 2019, 11:39:44 AM
You can post your two cents as long as you are respectful. That post of yours is not respectful and is plenty of inaccuracies. I think it's obvious that you share the same worldviews of the far right. Opinion is free. Trolling, falsehood and disrespect are not. I think uou don't have an actual interest in Spain and there are plenty threads where uou can share your hatred of immigrants. Please, Tender, go.

Please explain this further. I would like to see what exactly you mean by these accusations ...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 27, 2019, 11:40:55 AM
Or let's not and stay focused on the election. Will we get one last emojipanel today?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 27, 2019, 11:41:15 AM
Anyway, the myth that Spain is immune to far-right populist parties will crash and burn tomorrow.

And from what I have read, it will crash and burn pretty hard, as VOX has a very successful outreach campaign on the ground and will end up with 15-20%.

Next stop for crashing and burning the myth of immunity to far right populism: Portugal? :P

15-20% is way, way too high though. As DavidB has said, 12-14% seems more realistic for a "Vox surge" scenario. I'd cap Vox at 15%

And that's of course if you assume a surge in the first place. It's also possible that polls actually got them right (which would mean 11%) or that they overestimated them (very unlikely though)



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 27, 2019, 11:49:52 AM
You can post your two cents as long as you are respectful. That post of yours is not respectful and is plenty of inaccuracies. I think it's obvious that you share the same worldviews of the far right. Opinion is free. Trolling, falsehood and disrespect are not. I think you don't have an actual interest in Spain and there are plenty threads where uou can share your hatred of immigrants. Please, Tender, go.

While Tender's take was indeed bad, he did express it in a respectful way. Inaccuracies and bad takes are not disrespectful. And I won't say anything else on the matter, unless we want to have the mods have to clean up this mess.

Or let's not and stay focused on the election. Will we get one last emojipanel today?

No, the people behind it said they weren't publishing any more panels. They have said they will keep taking answers to their panel though, and publish an "Exit panel" as a sort of exit poll.

We will also get 2 proper polls made during the campaign though, like we had in the Catalan and Andalusian elections. One will be done by GAD3 for TVE (the national public TV). Another will be done by IMOP for Cadena COPE (a large private radio station which leans conservative). They will both be released at 20:00 Spanish time when polls close in the mainland.

No proper exit polls though. (or Andorra fruit polls for that matter).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: _ on April 27, 2019, 11:52:51 AM
Okay, as someone who is rather out of touch on Spanish politics, I have a question regarding the ERC and a PSOE government.  Would the ERC demand a government sponsored referendum for Independence in exchange for supporting the government?  Or do they have a different price? 

Also, what progress have any of the other regionalists/nationalists, particularly Basque ones, made this election?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Skye on April 27, 2019, 11:59:04 AM
One question. These will be the first Spanish elections I'll follow live and with a general idea of what's happening. Any suggestions on which news sites to check out, which accounts should I follow on twitter, and the sort?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 27, 2019, 12:03:13 PM
Okay, as someone who is rather out of touch on Spanish politics, I have a question regarding the ERC and a PSOE government.  Would the ERC demand a government sponsored referendum for Independence in exchange for supporting the government?  Or do they have a different price? 

Also, what progress have any of the other regionalists/nationalists, particularly Basque ones, made this election?
If any of our Spanish posters could give us a brief overview of all regionalists that are expected to win seats ("ERC: left-wing, Catalan nationalist, could/could not support PSOE" etc) that would be much appreciated as well. It's very unclear to me. Are there any that could provide support to a right-wing government?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 27, 2019, 12:03:39 PM
Or let's not and stay focused on the election.

That's a good idea


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 27, 2019, 12:04:49 PM
Speaking of Vox surges, El País and Kiko Llaneras have published what they believe are the 6 most likely ways for the polls to fail. They recognize that while polls are generally accurate, there is always a polling mistake somewhere. So here it is

()

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/04/27/actualidad/1556358041_818858.html

And here are the scenarios they believe are most likely if polls miss:

1: Vox surge (like other examples across Europe)
2: More general right wing surge (kind of like Andalucia)
3: Podemos makes a comeback (kind of like 2015)
4: The trends during the first half of the campaign keep going
5: PP resilience (kind of like 2016)
6: 100% accurate polls

Yes, 100% accurate polls would also qualify as a mistake historically speaking. Also, I believe scenario 4 is not happening, as the debates pretty much stopped any PSOE momentum and benefited Cs.

Okay, as someone who is rather out of touch on Spanish politics, I have a question regarding the ERC and a PSOE government.  Would the ERC demand a government sponsored referendum for Independence in exchange for supporting the government?  Or do they have a different price? 

Also, what progress have any of the other regionalists/nationalists, particularly Basque ones, made this election?

Yeah, they will probably ask for that plus a pardon for the Catalan politicians in jail. PSOE is almost definitely not accepting it (I can see them pardoning the Catalan politicians or commuting their sentences under some circumstances; but a referendum is not happening, ever, under PSOE).

Whether they will accept empty words about dialogue and comprehension or adopt a harsh line of "referendum now", I do not know. I personally believe they won't.

As for the Basques, I don't really get the question. PNV is not actively pushing for independence. Bildu is indeed actively for independence, but they've adopted a very moderate approach on that and do openly say they will support Sánchez. Very surprising for a party where a large part of the membership supported the murders of local PSOE officials by ETA as reciently as 11 years ago!

PNV is 100% reliable for Sánchez IMO, while Bildu is more or less where ERC is. However, because of ETA, PSOE can't exactly ask for Bildu support openly, it gives absolutely horrible optics.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on April 27, 2019, 12:10:37 PM
Considering that there were two back-to-back debates during the polling blackout, the likelihood that the polls fail in disastrous fashion seems pretty likely. I think that the most plausible scenario would be an eyepopping Podemos overperformance, which wouldn't be difficult to accomplish. In the end though, there's a lot of uncertainty. No "side" has reason to feel very confident because we're all in the dark.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 27, 2019, 12:16:54 PM
Okay, as someone who is rather out of touch on Spanish politics, I have a question regarding the ERC and a PSOE government.  Would the ERC demand a government sponsored referendum for Independence in exchange for supporting the government?  Or do they have a different price? 

Also, what progress have any of the other regionalists/nationalists, particularly Basque ones, made this election?
If any of our Spanish posters could give us a brief overview of all regionalists that are expected to win seats ("ERC: left-wing, Catalan nationalist, could/could not support PSOE" etc) that would be much appreciated as well. It's very unclear to me. Are there any that could provide support to a right-wing government?

Here you go. All chances are assuming a PSOE-UP government.

For PSOE-Cs, no one would support that except NA+, CC, PRC and maybe Compromís (this last one is very unlikely though).

For PP-Cs-Vox, only NA+ would support that.

Certain to get seats

ERC: Left wing, Catalan secessionist. Unclear if they would support PSOE (lean no). Expected seats: 10-15

JxCat: Centre-right, Catalan secessionist. Probably would not support PSOE, but not 100% certain. Expected seats: 4-8

PNV: Centre-right. Basque nationalist. Almost 100% certain that they would support PSOE. Expected seats: 6

Compromís: Left wing. Valencian nationalist. Almost 100% certain to support PSOE. Expected seats: 3-5

Bildu: Left wing. Basque secessionist. Unclear if they would support PSOE (lean yes personally but very debatable). Expected seats: 2-4

Navarra Suma: Right wing. Navarra regionalist. Coalition between PP, Cs and UPN in Navarra, but all seats will go to UPN because of how the list was made. Expected seats: 2. Almost 100% certain not to support Sánchez.

May or may not enter

BNG: Left wing. Galician secessionist. Almost 100% certain to support PSOE. Expected seats: 0-2

CC: Centre-right. Canarian nationalist. Almost 100% certain to NOT support PSOE. Expected seats: 0-1

FR: Far left. Catalan secessionist. Almost 100% certain to NOT support PSOE. Expected seats: 0-2

NCa: Centre-left. Canarian nationalist. Almost 100% certain to support PSOE. Expected seats: 0-1

PRC: Centre-left, but quite populist. Cantabria regionalist. Almost 100% certain to support PSOE. Expected seats: 0-1


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 27, 2019, 12:22:13 PM
Many thanks!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: rc18 on April 27, 2019, 01:10:50 PM
Considering that there were two back-to-back debates during the polling blackout, the likelihood that the polls fail in disastrous fashion seems pretty likely. I think that the most plausible scenario would be an eyepopping Podemos overperformance, which wouldn't be difficult to accomplish. In the end though, there's a lot of uncertainty. No "side" has reason to feel very confident because we're all in the dark.

There's still polls, they just measure ***ahem*** people's fruit and vegetable preferences, or what hairstyle people like...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 27, 2019, 01:24:10 PM
Considering that there were two back-to-back debates during the polling blackout, the likelihood that the polls fail in disastrous fashion seems pretty likely. I think that the most plausible scenario would be an eyepopping Podemos overperformance, which wouldn't be difficult to accomplish. In the end though, there's a lot of uncertainty. No "side" has reason to feel very confident because we're all in the dark.

There's still polls, they just measure ***ahem*** people's fruit and vegetable preferences, or what hairstyle people like...

As said before, the "emojipanel" is a fake poll. There are polls commissioned by parties and other organizations, but they are not released. Also, there is a high degree of uncertainty everywhere.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Umengus on April 27, 2019, 01:35:50 PM
last demoscopia / okdiario (04/26)

PSOE 27 (117)
PP 21 (84)
C 15 (51)
Vox 13 (41)
Podemos 12 (28)

So a very short majority (176) for the right.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Umengus on April 27, 2019, 01:38:25 PM
So my 2 cents (in respectful way of course):

I think (and strongly hope) that vox is underestimated:

PSOE 25
PP 20
VoX 16
C 15
Podemos 12




Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 27, 2019, 01:45:59 PM
last demoscopia / okdiario (04/26)

Is Okdiario breaching the polling ban?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 27, 2019, 01:47:15 PM
Is there any 'seat calculators'/estimators' out there? Like I said on my Twitter, D'Hondt ends up apportioning seats in a Tangential way (Hard to win low%, easy to win high%) but the 'midpoint' of those Tangential functions differs based on overall parties and your national distribution. I have a good feeling that the Right vote is going cut itself to pieces considering Vox's Andalusia numbers correlated linearly with PP+C's numbers, but I would like to confirm/get an estimate with a calculator.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: rob in cal on April 27, 2019, 01:55:16 PM
Ok, so whats the seat target figure for combined right wing parties that gets Casado in as PM?  Somewhere in the low 170's?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 27, 2019, 02:06:56 PM
Is there any 'seat calculators'/estimators' out there? Like I said on my Twitter, D'Hondt ends up apportioning seats in a Tangential way (Hard to win low%, easy to win high%) but the 'midpoint' of those Tangential functions differs based on overall parties and your national distribution. I have a good feeling that the Right vote is going cut itself to pieces considering Vox's Andalusia numbers correlated linearly with PP+C's numbers, but I would like to confirm/get an estimate with a calculator.

After a quick research, I was able to find this, which somehow gives a rough estimation. It only allows you to change the main 5 parties and fixes the "others" percentage at 6% (which is too low in my opinion). Still, I guess it's good enough for a rough estimate.

https://politibot.io/juega-a-repartir-escanos-asi-se-asignaran-segun-el-voto-el-28a/


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 27, 2019, 02:11:47 PM
Ok, so whats the seat target figure for combined right wing parties that gets Casado in as PM?  Somewhere in the low 170's?

For PP-Cs-Vox, it's 176 (ie an absolute majority) or bust. 174 if you want to be technical and count NA+ separately.

They can't depend on any regional parties whatsoever, not even CC (which is usually very happy about making deals with PP!)



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: TheDeadFlagBlues on April 27, 2019, 02:27:39 PM
Not sure if these internal polls from PSOE and Podemos have been posted yet:

PSOE internal poll: PSOE 30-31%, PP 15-17%, Vox 13-16%, C's ?, Podemos ?
Podemos internal poll: PSOE 30%, Podemos 15%, PP 15%, C's 15%, Vox 15%

My read of these polls is that, on the one hand, there's every reason to believe that it's in the interests of both PSOE and Podemos to show a Vox surge in order to mobilize their base. It's noteworthy that both polls appear to be very similar, of course, but both parties have similar interests. Simultaneously, the debates were a trainwreck for PP and, frankly, for the C's as well, with both Rivera and, especially, Casado coming off as feuding clowns incapable of governing.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 27, 2019, 03:18:00 PM
My updated prediction:

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Tender Branson on April 27, 2019, 03:18:21 PM
That would leave a massive 13% for „other“ parties.

Who would get that ?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 27, 2019, 03:25:00 PM
That would leave a massive 13% for „other“ parties.

Who would get that ?
PACMA and the regionalists. But it's going to be off either way, given the polling blackout, the bad polls in the first place, and the uncertain debate effects. I'm just guessing the right will slightly outperform the polls and be around 175 (not sure on which side...).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 27, 2019, 03:47:34 PM
Not sure if these internal polls from PSOE and Podemos have been posted yet:

PSOE internal poll: PSOE 30-31%, PP 15-17%, Vox 13-16%, C's ?, Podemos ?
Podemos internal poll: PSOE 30%, Podemos 15%, PP 15%, C's 15%, Vox 15%

My read of these polls is that, on the one hand, there's every reason to believe that it's in the interests of both PSOE and Podemos to show a Vox surge in order to mobilize their base. It's noteworthy that both polls appear to be very similar, of course, but both parties have similar interests. Simultaneously, the debates were a trainwreck for PP and, frankly, for the C's as well, with both Rivera and, especially, Casado coming off as feuding clowns incapable of governing.

Obviously these "internal polls" are biased leaks. Yesterday I read about a PP internal poll giving 50 seats to Vox and a range between 60 and 120 seats to the PP. These informations must be taken with loads of salt.

Regarding the debates, they must be seen taking into account that every candidate is seeking to appeal a different audience. Casado tried a 'moderate' and 'institutional' approach on the first night and was overcome by Rivera's aggressiveness. So Rivera succeed in the eyes of his potential audience, that is to say among voters right of the centre. On second night, Casado sought a body-to-body combat with the aim to recover the lost ground. It can be argued the rightwing candidates showed a lamentable image of confrontation, if compared with the synergy between Sánchez and Iglesias.  However, it's highly unlikely the debates favour vote transfers between ideological blocs in the present context of extreme polarization.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jaichind on April 27, 2019, 06:31:57 PM
Ideally PP C and VOX all get around 16%-18% from a seat optimization point of view for the Right wing forces which is what I am hoping for.  While I suspect VOX might be under-polled I think there is a chance it might be over-polled as pollsters overcompensate for what took place in Andalusia.  Also I think there might be last minute VOX->PP tactical voting if there is a belief that VOX might not cross the threshold to get seats. Hopefully I am wrong and VOX can have a strong election night.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Rethliopuks on April 27, 2019, 08:20:38 PM
last demoscopia / okdiario (04/26)

Is Okdiario breaching the polling ban?

Dk, does hairdressing preference reporting count?

okdiario.com/espana/cortes-pelo-raya-derecha-centro-o-barba-hipster-logran-ya-mas-votos-que-izquierdas-4035605


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Lexii, harbinger of chaos and sexual anarchy on April 27, 2019, 09:43:04 PM
last demoscopia / okdiario (04/26)

Is Okdiario breaching the polling ban?

Dk, does hairdressing preference reporting count?

okdiario.com/espana/cortes-pelo-raya-derecha-centro-o-barba-hipster-logran-ya-mas-votos-que-izquierdas-4035605

The Andorran Market has been a thing for years and no one in power has done anything to change it, despite it being public knowledge (and reported on every Spanish newspaper)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Tender Branson on April 28, 2019, 12:19:14 AM
It seems as if this is going to be the official results page from the Interior Ministry:

https://www.resultados.eleccionesgenerales19.es/Inicio/es

El Pais:

https://resultados.elpais.com/elecciones/generales.html

El Mundo:

https://www.elmundo.es/elecciones/elecciones-generales/resultados


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Tender Branson on April 28, 2019, 01:05:46 AM
It seems as if this is going to be the official results page from the Interior Ministry:

https://www.resultados.eleccionesgenerales19.es/Inicio/es

El Pais:

https://resultados.elpais.com/elecciones/generales.html

El Mundo:

https://www.elmundo.es/elecciones/elecciones-generales/resultados

Polls are now open.

A first measurement of turnout will come at 14:00 local time.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Tender Branson on April 28, 2019, 02:19:16 AM
36.9 million people are eligible to vote today, of which 34.8 million are in Spain and 2.1 million are Spanish citizens abroad.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 03:45:09 AM

Your optimism is duly noted.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Tender Branson on April 28, 2019, 03:46:53 AM
The voting weather is great today, sunny and up to 30°C in the South and a bit cooler in the North:

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Tender Branson on April 28, 2019, 03:51:01 AM
Only 1 out of 60.038 precincts is not up and running yet.

https://www.resultados.eleccionesgenerales19.es/Avances/Total-nacional/0/es

Update (10:54):

Now all 60.038 precincts are up and running.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: FredLindq on April 28, 2019, 04:31:08 AM
This is interesting (according to me).
In the 2015 elections the left (PSOE, IU and Podemos later om UP) got 161 seats and in 2016 they got 156 seats and Electopanel predicts that the will get 162 this time. Left regionalist parties (ERC, EHB and Compromis) got 11 seats in 2015, 11 in 2016 and 19 this time (Compromis is standing alone this time). The left in total got 172 seats in 2015, 167 in 2016 and is predicted to get 171 this time. Not much change in three elections!

The right (PP and C's and this time Vox and NS) got 166 seats in 2015, 163 in 2016 and is predicted to get 169. Not much change.

Centreright regionalist parties (JPC earlier DEL and CDC, PNV and CC) got 15 seats in 2015, 14 in 2016 and is predicted to get 11 this time. Not much change there either.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 05:04:16 AM
I'm so bad at predictions and this is probably wrong, but at some point I'll get it right and look brilliant. So here it goes.

PSOE: 130
PP: 75
Cs: 45
Podemos: 35
Vox: 33
Otros: 32

PSOE-Podemos make a vote-and-supply deal with smaller parties to prop up a minority government.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 05:33:14 AM
This is interesting (according to me).
In the 2015 elections the left (PSOE, IU and Podemos later om UP) got 161 seats and in 2016 they got 156 seats and Electopanel predicts that the will get 162 this time. Left regionalist parties (ERC, EHB and Compromis) got 11 seats in 2015, 11 in 2016 and 19 this time (Compromis is standing alone this time). The left in total got 172 seats in 2015, 167 in 2016 and is predicted to get 171 this time. Not much change in three elections!

The right (PP and C's and this time Vox and NS) got 166 seats in 2015, 163 in 2016 and is predicted to get 169. Not much change.

Centreright regionalist parties (JPC earlier DEL and CDC, PNV and CC) got 15 seats in 2015, 14 in 2016 and is predicted to get 11 this time. Not much change there either.


To be fair 2015 and 2016 were 2 back to back elections so no surprise that there wasn't much change. The fact that 2019 may also be similar to those 2 is uncommon, but not exactly unprecedented.

There are other examples of 2 consecutive elections having similar results like 1977-1979 or 2004-2008.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 05:53:06 AM
Also, regarding where to watch the results, I'd personally recommend the private websites (El País or El Mundo; or really any Spanish news site) over the official website

The main issue is that for some reason the official websites for results separate the results of Podemos proper and their alliances. So this time you get "Podemos-IU-Equo" and "ECP-Guanyem el canvi" (in Catalonia) which is misleading.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Mike88 on April 28, 2019, 07:16:18 AM
It seems that my fears about turnout were a bit too pessimistic... (until now)

At 14:00h, turnout is up 4% from 2016 and reaches 41.4%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: rc18 on April 28, 2019, 07:18:57 AM
So if i’m reading the turnout numbers right, turnout is up most in both right-leaning regions (Castille,Valencia etc) and separatist leaning ones (Catalonia, Basque Country). Not so much in places like Andalusia. Does not seem great for PSOE?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 07:19:11 AM
It seems that my fears about turnout were a bit too pessimistic... (until now)

At 14:00h, turnout is up 4% from 2016 and reaches 41.4%

My hunch is that would tend to dilute the vote share of Vox and the separatists, but who knows, I guess.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 07:23:33 AM
So if i’m reading the turnout numbers right, turnout is up most in both right-leaning regions (Castille,Valencia etc) and separatist leaning ones (Catalonia, Basque Country). Not so much in places like Andalusia. Does not seem great for PSOE?

Turnout is up all across Spain. However the thing is that while turnout is up massively in Catalonia (in many places matching the turnout from the regional elections!), in the rest of Spain the increase is a more moderate one of about 4%

()

Within Catalonia it looks like a secessionist surge more than a unionist one, judging by the fact that Girona and Lleida are the provinces with higher turnout

Also, this preliminary turnout report is the highest since 1993 and 2nd highest in history. Turnout may well reach the mid 70s.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 07:31:41 AM
From a more detailed report, it looks like the right and the left are both turning out, just in different parts of the country.

Here's for example El Ejido, the one municipality where Vox won in the Andalusian regional election:

2016: 34.5%
2019: 40.7%

Compare that to Andalucia at large:

2016: 37.6%
2019: 38.9%

So in Andalucia we might see the same phenomenon as in the regional election where it is the right that flocks to the polls.

In Catalonia meanwhile while turnout is up everywhere, secessionist rural areas (like Vic) are up more than unionist areas (like L'Hospitalet)

Finally, decided to compare a rich neighbourhood in Madrid (Salamanca) to a poor/working class one (Villa-Vallecas). Turnout seems to have increased equally on both.

Just what we needed, more uncertainty :P


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 07:39:39 AM
From a more detailed report, it looks like the right and the left are both turning out, just in different parts of the country.

Here's for example El Ejido, the one municipality where Vox won in the Andalusian regional election:

2016: 34.5%
2019: 40.7%

Compare that to Andalucia at large:

2016: 37.6%
2019: 38.9%

So in Andalucia we might see the same phenomenon as in the regional election where it is the right that flocks to the polls.

In Catalonia meanwhile while turnout is up everywhere, secessionist rural areas (like Vic) are up more than unionist areas (like L'Hospitalet)

Just what we needed, more uncertainty :P

It's not hugely helpful in this context to look at autonomias anyway. When you look at turnout in a more granular or especially municipal level the picture is pretty interesting. PP hub Lugo and Vox base town of Almeria have only small turnout bumps. While leftist Alcocorn in Madrid has a more significant bump. It's also hard to predict what Catalonia will do, and a massive turnout in Barcelona could augur a major result for Podemos or the separatist parties.

But as a general rule the turnout is mostly up 3-5 points across the board without really favoring either the right or left.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Rethliopuks on April 28, 2019, 07:41:34 AM
This is meaningless observation anyway but the turnout is 1/8 higher than 2016 across Spain, and 1/3 higher in Catalonia. Quite impressive...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: parochial boy on April 28, 2019, 07:49:03 AM
From a more detailed report, it looks like the right and the left are both turning out, just in different parts of the country.

Here's for example El Ejido, the one municipality where Vox won in the Andalusian regional election:

2016: 34.5%
2019: 40.7%

Compare that to Andalucia at large:

2016: 37.6%
2019: 38.9%

So in Andalucia we might see the same phenomenon as in the regional election where it is the right that flocks to the polls.

In Catalonia meanwhile while turnout is up everywhere, secessionist rural areas (like Vic) are up more than unionist areas (like L'Hospitalet)

Just what we needed, more uncertainty :P

It's not hugely helpful in this context to look at autonomias anyway. When you look at turnout in a more granular or especially municipal level the picture is pretty interesting. PP hub Lugo and Vox base town of Almeria have only small turnout bumps. While leftist Alcocorn in Madrid has a more significant bump. It's also hard to predict what Catalonia will do, and a massive turnout in Barcelona could augur a major result for Podemos or the separatist parties.

But as a general rule the turnout is mostly up 3-5 points across the board without really favoring either the right or left.

Was gonna say something like this, and it's also probably worth remarking that those areas in Aragon and Castilla y Leon that look like they are having big increases in turnout are also pretty sparsely inhabited. With the exception of Zaragoza, it will take pretty big swings in the likes of Teruel to move any seats at all.

Honestly, I wouldn't read anything into the reports at all. We always overreact to turnout reports, and get it wrong more often than right tbh.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan on April 28, 2019, 07:59:21 AM
When the voting will end?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 28, 2019, 08:06:09 AM

20:00 CET in mainland Spain and Balearic Islands
20:00 GMT in Canary Islands

High turnout is always good news. regardless the final results (cross fingers). I voted minutes ago and there was more people in my polling place than previous elections. People is getting the importance of this general election and is going to vote.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 08:42:43 AM

At this rate next decade. Spain should just have elections every every month until someone gets a majority.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 09:12:37 AM


Here's another case of confusing turnout. Madrid's the most conservative of the bunch, but it has the average turnout. Frankly, if we remove Catalonia, it just looks like turnout is up everywhere by 2-4 points with a few exceptions.

Another good example of confusing turnout is Andalusia. On the surface, it looks bad for PSOE. But then on further analysis, the province with the highest turnout, Seville, is the only one where PSOE+AA had more votes then PP+C's+Vox in 2018.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Tender Branson on April 28, 2019, 09:23:49 AM
The strong rise in turnout should be good news for VOX, as a lot of previously disappointed people seem to be coming into the fold now with that additional choice for them.

On the other hand, urban people will turn out against them - which might keep them "under control". I think my 17% for VOX should come pretty close to the actual results later during the night.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 28, 2019, 09:35:58 AM
I wouldn't dare to predict anything, because my crystal ball is not sending clear signs to me. It seems the Steve Bannon's oracle is talking through a medium from Austria. Everything is possible, but it seems clear that it's imposible to avert intoxication


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 09:36:10 AM
The strong rise in turnout should be good news for VOX, as a lot of previously disappointed people seem to be coming into the fold now with that additional choice for them.

On the other hand, urban people will turn out against them - which might keep them "under control". I think my 17% for VOX should come pretty close to the actual results later during the night.

Once again, you demonstrate your lack of understanding about Spanish politics. Rural areas do not lean uniformity to the conservatives/centralists, and urban areas do not lean uniformly to the left. The rural south also has much more voters then the rural north, making both geographic 'regions' parities on the national level. Vox is likely to get a 'good' score in Madrid for instance. The only place turnout is truly surging compared to the nation is in Catalonia, which is rightly afraid of the centralists/federalist debate that has dominated this campaign.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: rc18 on April 28, 2019, 09:39:14 AM
Here's another case of confusing turnout. Madrid's the most conservative of the bunch, but it has the average turnout. Frankly, if we remove Catalonia, it just looks like turnout is up everywhere by 2-4 points with a few exceptions.

Another good example of confusing turnout is Andalusia. On the surface, it looks bad for PSOE. But then on further analysis, the province with the highest turnout, Seville, is the only one where PSOE+AA had more votes then PP+C's+Vox in 2018.

Is Andalusia that confusing? In most places the turnout is sub par. The best places are Almeria and Seville. Almeria is obvious. As for Seville if PSOE turnout was strong you expect other high PSOE areas to see turnout increase well.  The solution to the riddle could be Seville was one of the best places for Podemos partner AA. Of course they could be turning out to vote for PSOE...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Tender Branson on April 28, 2019, 09:45:10 AM
I wouldn't dare to predict anything, because my crystal ball is not sending clear signs to me. It seems the Steve Bannon's oracle is talking through a medium from Austria. Everything is possible, but it seems clear that it's imposible to avert intoxication

::)

Once again, you demonstrate your lack of understanding about Spanish politics. Rural areas do not lean uniformity to the conservatives/centralists, and urban areas do not lean uniformly to the left. The rural south also has much more voters then the rural north, making both geographic 'regions' parities on the national level. Vox is likely to get a 'good' score in Madrid for instance. The only place turnout is truly surging compared to the nation is in Catalonia, which is rightly afraid of the centralists/federalist debate that has dominated this campaign.

VOX has only received 0.2% last time, so it is hard to tell where their strongholds are now that they could get ~15% today.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 09:46:04 AM
Here's another case of confusing turnout. Madrid's the most conservative of the bunch, but it has the average turnout. Frankly, if we remove Catalonia, it just looks like turnout is up everywhere by 2-4 points with a few exceptions.

Another good example of confusing turnout is Andalusia. On the surface, it looks bad for PSOE. But then on further analysis, the province with the highest turnout, Seville, is the only one where PSOE+AA had more votes then PP+C's+Vox in 2018.

Is Andalusia that confusing? In most places the turnout is sub par. The best places are Almeria and Seville. Almeria is obvious. As for Seville if PSOE turnout was strong you expect other high PSOE areas to see turnout increase well.  The solution to the riddle could be Seville was one of the best places for Podemos partner AA.

Turnout in Almeria, a Vox stronghold, is well below the national turnout bump.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Double Carpet on April 28, 2019, 09:50:29 AM
Thanks to everyone for all the updates!

Does anyone have links for TV coverage online that won't be geoblocked?

Also am I right in saying that Spain has never had a coalition govt at the national level (as opposed to confidence/supply) since the return to democracy?

Thanks!

DC


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: rc18 on April 28, 2019, 09:52:30 AM
Here's another case of confusing turnout. Madrid's the most conservative of the bunch, but it has the average turnout. Frankly, if we remove Catalonia, it just looks like turnout is up everywhere by 2-4 points with a few exceptions.

Another good example of confusing turnout is Andalusia. On the surface, it looks bad for PSOE. But then on further analysis, the province with the highest turnout, Seville, is the only one where PSOE+AA had more votes then PP+C's+Vox in 2018.

Is Andalusia that confusing? In most places the turnout is sub par. The best places are Almeria and Seville. Almeria is obvious. As for Seville if PSOE turnout was strong you expect other high PSOE areas to see turnout increase well.  The solution to the riddle could be Seville was one of the best places for Podemos partner AA.

Turnout in Almeria, a Vox stronghold, is well below the national turnout bump.
Yes? And?

All of Andalusia has a lower increase in turnout compared to the rest of the country, Almeria is just the least worst with a 3.6 point increase, not far off the national average.

Anyway Vox tend to do better in areas that have low levels of absolute turnout.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 28, 2019, 09:59:48 AM


VOX has only received 0.2% last time, so it is hard to tell where their strongholds are now that they could get ~15% today.

If it's hard to tell where are the Vox strongholds, it should be hard to tell that Vox will get more than 15% (btw, this is the Steve Bannon's prediction). Hard to tell does not imply impossible to guess. The Andalusian results, examined at precinct level, could provide some clues.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: kaoras on April 28, 2019, 10:04:56 AM
I wouldn't dare to predict anything, because my crystal ball is not sending clear signs to me. It seems the Steve Bannon's oracle is talking through a medium from Austria. Everything is possible, but it seems clear that it's imposible to avert intoxication

::)

Once again, you demonstrate your lack of understanding about Spanish politics. Rural areas do not lean uniformity to the conservatives/centralists, and urban areas do not lean uniformly to the left. The rural south also has much more voters then the rural north, making both geographic 'regions' parities on the national level. Vox is likely to get a 'good' score in Madrid for instance. The only place turnout is truly surging compared to the nation is in Catalonia, which is rightly afraid of the centralists/federalist debate that has dominated this campaign.

VOX has only received 0.2% last time, so it is hard to tell where their strongholds are now that they could get ~15% today.

Andalusian results indicate that Vox does better in typical right wing strongholds, don't know why this should change.

And honestly, your extreme lack of understanding of Spanish Politics wouldn't be so annoying if you weren't going to delight us with very insightful takes on Vox rise later tonight.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: rob in cal on April 28, 2019, 10:11:47 AM
  I do buy into the idea of previous non-voters who lean strongly to the right being more likely to vote this time around with Vox being a viable choice, whereas in previous elections PP was the only viable choice.  So in theory a greater % of the vote going overall to right wing parties just because of this.
  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jaichind on April 28, 2019, 10:25:37 AM
 I do buy into the idea of previous non-voters who lean strongly to the right being more likely to vote this time around with Vox being a viable choice, whereas in previous elections PP was the only viable choice.  So in theory a greater % of the vote going overall to right wing parties just because of this.
  

As much as I want this theory to be true I tend to think higher turnout should work to the benefit of the Left just like in 2004 and 2008.  So far the signs are not good for a Right wing victory.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Sestak on April 28, 2019, 10:45:07 AM
So 2 hours and 15 minutes to closing.

How does this work - is it just the standard European “exits immieately, then actual counting” formula? If so, then how reliable are Spanish exits?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 11:08:28 AM
So 2 hours and 15 minutes to closing.

How does this work - is it just the standard European “exits immieately, then actual counting” formula? If so, then how reliable are Spanish exits?

I actually think it will be like Finland with early vote tallies, although I think that there might be a couple of polls released at 2000. Oddly I don't think they are actually exit polls, per se.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Michael19754 on April 28, 2019, 11:10:52 AM
Turnout is up nearly 10% at 6 PM!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Michael19754 on April 28, 2019, 11:11:25 AM
18%(!) in Catalonia


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 11:13:42 AM

What's fun is that literally nobody knows what that actually means for results given the novelty of Vox and where that turnout is especially high.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 11:19:44 AM

Catalonia's turnout is ridiculous. Even higher than the regional election right after article 155!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: rc18 on April 28, 2019, 11:21:58 AM
Big changes in the voting pattern compared to earlier. This is looking much better for left than right.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 11:27:40 AM

Catalonia's turnout is ridiculous. Even higher than the regional election right after article 155!

Why would Catalonians be so energized to vote this year? And what would make previous non-voters choose now to finally vote?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 11:32:05 AM

Catalonia's turnout is ridiculous. Even higher than the regional election right after article 155!

Why would Catalonians be so energized to vote this year? And what would make previous non-voters choose now to finally vote?

Fear is the best motivator. If if the map from earlier is still true, then the two provinces with the highest turnout increase from 2016 are Lerida and Gerona, which always vote separatist. The debate this entire campaign has been around Vox/C's/PP with their centralism, and Catalonia certainly doesn't wish to loose their federal rights.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 11:35:03 AM


()

Also, whats going in valencia? Don't they have a provincial election concurent with the federal one today - so shouldn't they have the highest turnout?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 11:45:07 AM

Catalonia's turnout is ridiculous. Even higher than the regional election right after article 155!

Why would Catalonians be so energized to vote this year? And what would make previous non-voters choose now to finally vote?

Fear is the best motivator. If if the map from earlier is still true, then the two provinces with the highest turnout increase from 2016 are Lerida and Gerona, which always vote separatist. The debate this entire campaign has been around Vox/C's/PP with their centralism, and Catalonia certainly doesn't wish to loose their federal rights.

But wouldn't that fear translate into a vote boost for the separists, but also some spillover to the leftist parties who are willing to at least in practice grant at least a little more autonomy?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 11:46:20 AM
Regional elections generally have lower turnout. No one who wasn't going to vote in the national election was going to vote in the regional one. So there is no reason for Valencia to increase more than everyone else.

Also, here's a historic analysis of early turnout reports

()

Seems like turnout will be somewhere around 2008 levels (74%), which is quite high for what we are used to in the last decade. Unfortunately, beating 2004 (76%) seems unlikely; let alone 1996 (77%) or 1982 (80%)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: bigic on April 28, 2019, 12:05:58 PM


Higher turnout in Ceuta and Melilla (two cities in Africa) seems good for Vox


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 12:13:09 PM


Higher turnout in Ceuta and Melilla (two cities in Africa) seems good for Vox

I mean, we're talking about 60,000 voters. If Vox was putting their electoral future on Ceuta and Melilla then they may not even get into parliament at all.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Tender Branson on April 28, 2019, 12:13:35 PM
Seems like turnout will be somewhere around 2008 levels (74%), which is quite high for what we are used to in the last decade. Unfortunately, beating 2004 (76%) seems unlikely; let alone 1996 (77%) or 1982 (80%)

Well, 80% seems possible if there's no dropoff in the final 2 hours of voting. At least turnout Spain-wide (excl. Spains living abroad). Turnout incl. Spains abroad will be 2% lower than in mainland Spain.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 12:13:40 PM


Higher turnout in Ceuta and Melilla (two cities in Africa) seems good for Vox

For Ceuta/Melilla it depends on who is turning out. The cities are polarized on religious lines I think, with muslims voting left (on local elections they have their own separate parties though) and non muslims voting right.

If it's a surge on muslims voting, I could actually see PSOE winning those seats on strong vote splits. It wouldn't be unprecedented, they came close in Melilla in 2008 after all (and that's with no vote splitting)

If it's a surge on non-muslims (or even just the surge being equally distributed) then good news for Vox.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: rc18 on April 28, 2019, 12:18:25 PM
If there’s one thing even I as a relative novice to Spanish politics can be confident of it’s that this election will not hinge on the idiosyncrasies of the vote in Ceuta and Melilla...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: bigic on April 28, 2019, 12:21:55 PM
If there’s one thing even I as a relative novice to Spanish politics can be confident of it’s that this election will not hinge on the idiosyncrasies of the vote in Ceuta and Melilla...

I know that, but according to recent polling Vox has pretty big support in these two cities (in Ceuta it's even first), so maybe it's an indication of a wider trend in Spain.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 12:25:08 PM
If there’s one thing even I as a relative novice to Spanish politics can be confident of it’s that this election will not hinge on the idiosyncrasies of the vote in Ceuta and Melilla...

I know that, but according to recent polling Vox has pretty big support in these two cities (in Ceuta it's even first), so maybe it's an indication of a wider trend in Spain.


Except that in the most conservative parts of Spain, where Vox would be expected to do well, the turnout bump isn't quite as strong as in the autonomous African cities. It seems that, as with Catalonia, it's a local phenomenon and not something that is being replicated elsewhere. The turnout is definitely higher across the board, but what makes those cities unique is that it is up more than in the conservative heartland or the southern coastal provinces.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 12:27:50 PM
I'm still not sure that it's accurate to say that Catalonia's turnout bomb is a separatist thing. I think it's more of a just Catatonian thing. Barcelona, which is not known for its rabid separatism, has a turnout spike equal to the region as a whole. I'm sure that we'll see separatist parties do well. I just wouldn't be surprised if the left wing parties also get a boost from the Catalonian vote.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan on April 28, 2019, 12:29:46 PM
Are there going to be any exit polls?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Mike88 on April 28, 2019, 12:44:36 PM

I don't think so. Only polls done during the last few days. That's what i recall Tack saying.

According to RTVE, 27 million people cast a ballot. A record number.

I was really off regarding turnout... Yikes.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 12:48:40 PM
Can someone explain the demographics of Vox voters and how that's different than PP voters?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 12:51:09 PM
Can someone explain the demographics of Vox voters and how that's different than PP voters?

Not much methinks. At least in their breakout election, Vox Votes correlated to PP+C's support, with a few exceptions in the migrant heavy areas.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Umengus on April 28, 2019, 12:57:09 PM
- Podemos: 14,5% (46 députés)
- PSOE: 25,5% (105)
- C’s: 15% (51)
- PP: 19,3% (70)
- Vox: 13% (42)

http://electomania.es/exitpanel28a/




Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 12:57:10 PM


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Mike88 on April 28, 2019, 01:03:19 PM
According to the polls, no bloc has anything close to a majority.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Umengus on April 28, 2019, 01:03:46 PM
Gad tracking poll

PSOE - 116-121
PP - 69-73
C's - 48-49
PODEM - 42-45
VOX - 36-38
ERC - 13-14
JXC - 5
Front Republicà - 1


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 01:06:33 PM
IMOP-Cadena COPE election day poll

()

Keep in mind that these are not proper exit polls, but polls done during the campaign blackout period and published today. However the last 2 such polls were mostly accurate


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Starry Eyed Jagaloon on April 28, 2019, 01:08:46 PM
LEFT: 158--166
RIGHT: 153-160
PSOE-C's: 164-170

*Prays for third option*



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 01:08:53 PM
IMOP-Cadena COPE election day poll

()

Keep in mind that these are not proper exit polls, but polls done during the campaign blackout period and published today. However the last 2 such polls were mostly accurate

Those MOE's are huge O_o


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jeron on April 28, 2019, 01:10:19 PM
IMOP-Cadena COPE election day poll

()

Keep in mind that these are not proper exit polls, but polls done during the campaign blackout period and published today. However the last 2 such polls were mostly accurate

That is because of the electoral system

Those MOE's are huge O_o


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 01:11:08 PM
()

SocioMétrica/El Español has a majority in the MOE for PSOE+C's, and realistically there is a chance for PSOE+Podemos minority here


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: mileslunn on April 28, 2019, 01:11:25 PM
Excluding the Catalan separatist parties, wouldn't the smaller regionalist ones be more likely to support the left leaning bloc than right leaning?  Looks like it will be a mess and possibly another election later this year although I think smaller parties would be more likely to support left than right.  Right pretty much has to hit 176 or get very close to realistically govern.  And if they do hit that, do they have Popular Party or Citizens lead the way.  I would think Citizens would have a better chance of working with smaller parties than Popular Party.

Likewise if PSOE + Citizens have majority is there any chance Citizens will reverse their cordon sanitaire as there will probably a lot of pressure including from the EU for the two to work together since both are the most pro-EU.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jeron on April 28, 2019, 01:13:16 PM
LEFT: 158--166
RIGHT: 153-160
PSOE-C's: 164-170

*Prays for third option*



The third option is probably the best, but unfortuantely it has been excluded by Ciudadanos.
If this is the actual result a PSOE/Podemos coalition with support of regional parties seems most likely


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: mileslunn on April 28, 2019, 01:15:09 PM
LEFT: 158--166
RIGHT: 153-160
PSOE-C's: 164-170

*Prays for third option*



The third option is probably the best, but unfortuantely it has been excluded by Ciudadanos.
If this is the actualiteit  a PSOE/Podemos coalition with support of regional parties seems most likely

If left forms I believe that will be good news for minimum wage workers as they promise a 22% hike.  Terrible though if you make over 150,000 Euros as your taxes will go up.  In fact my understanding is for those making over 300,000 Euros, if PSOE + Podemos tax plan goes through, top marginal rates will be over 50% in 2/3 of Spain (sort of like what we have now in Canada for good or ill, and this tax hike wildly popular with most but hated by rich and economist mixed on idea).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 01:15:15 PM
Here's Electomania's "Exit Panel" for what it's worth. Definitely an outlier compared to everyone else

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 01:15:50 PM
Excluding the Catalan separatist parties, wouldn't the smaller regionalist ones be more likely to support the left leaning bloc than right leaning?  Looks like it will be a mess and possibly another election later this year although I think smaller parties would be more likely to support left than right.  Right pretty much has to hit 176 or get very close to realistically govern.  And if they do hit that, do they have Popular Party or Citizens lead the way.  I would think Citizens would have a better chance of working with smaller parties than Popular Party.

The only way the right gets into power with these numbers is a new election, which isn't implausible given numbers like this. Assuming the accuracy of the polls, it pretty much comes down to whether Sanchez/Iglesias can at least coax the ERC and Bildu into a vote and supply agreement or whether Spain once again suffers new elections. Apart from the regionalism/separatism, there is a clear majority from the left here. The problem is that the separatism thing is a big thing.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: parochial boy on April 28, 2019, 01:15:56 PM
How long till the results start to come through? I'm not sure if I can bear another late night watching early hope turn into crushing despair... :)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 01:17:14 PM
How long till the results start to come through? I'm not sure if I can bear another late night watching early hope turn into crushing despair... :)

An hour.  I feel, I really feel, your pain.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Mike88 on April 28, 2019, 01:17:41 PM
How long till the results start to come through? I'm not sure if I can bear another late night watching early hope turn into crushing despair... :)

In the next minutes, i think results will start coming in. By 22:00h, the overall image will be clear.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Tender Branson on April 28, 2019, 01:18:23 PM
I was watching the "exit polls" on Spanish RTE TV, but was not sure if those were exit polls or something conducted over the previous days ?

Does anyone know if these are proper exit polls done today, or in the last days ?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 01:18:50 PM
How long till the results start to come through? I'm not sure if I can bear another late night watching early hope turn into crushing despair... :)

In the next minutes, i think results will start coming in. By 22:00h, the overall image will be clear.

I think they said they won't release data until the Canaries are done voting.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Mike88 on April 28, 2019, 01:19:30 PM
I was watching the "exit polls" on Spanish RTE TV, but was not sure if those were exit polls or something conducted over the previous days ?

Does anyone know if these are proper exit polls done today, or in the last days ?

No exit polls. They are all tracking poll from the last few days.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 01:19:34 PM
I was watching the "exit polls" on Spanish RTE TV, but was not sure if those were exit polls or something conducted over the previous days ?

Does anyone know if these are proper exit polls done today, or in the last days ?

Three day tracking polls. I have no clue why but Spain doesn't do exit polling.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Sestak on April 28, 2019, 01:19:47 PM
How long till the results start to come through? I'm not sure if I can bear another late night watching early hope turn into crushing despair... :)

In the next minutes, i think results will start coming in. By 22:00h, the overall image will be clear.

I think they said they won't release data until the Canaries are done voting.

Yeah, so another 40 mins.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Rethliopuks on April 28, 2019, 01:20:04 PM
How long till the results start to come through? I'm not sure if I can bear another late night watching early hope turn into crushing despair... :)

In the next minutes, i think results will start coming in. By 22:00h, the overall image will be clear.

Isn't it that you won't get anything until Canary Islands close at 21.00, even though votes would start to be counted?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 01:20:38 PM
Excluding the Catalan separatist parties, wouldn't the smaller regionalist ones be more likely to support the left leaning bloc than right leaning?  Looks like it will be a mess and possibly another election later this year although I think smaller parties would be more likely to support left than right.  Right pretty much has to hit 176 or get very close to realistically govern.  And if they do hit that, do they have Popular Party or Citizens lead the way.  I would think Citizens would have a better chance of working with smaller parties than Popular Party.

Likewise if PSOE + Citizens have majority is there any chance Citizens will reverse their cordon sanitaire as there will probably a lot of pressure including from the EU for the two to work together since both are the most pro-EU.

The only proper regionalist parties that will apparently make it will be CC and UPN

UPN contested the election alongside PP and Cs as Navarra Suma so I doubt it.

CC hates Podemos so it's also very unlikely, though slightly less likely. CC is a Marxist party in the Groucho sense: "these are our principles, if you don't like them, we have others"; and they did abstain on Sánchez's confidence vote.

However I would not count on them


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Tender Branson on April 28, 2019, 01:20:53 PM
Hmm, let's wait for the actual vote count then ...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: parochial boy on April 28, 2019, 01:21:44 PM
How long till the results start to come through? I'm not sure if I can bear another late night watching early hope turn into crushing despair... :)

In the next minutes, i think results will start coming in. By 22:00h, the overall image will be clear.

I think they said they won't release data until the Canaries are done voting.

So hopefully we get a proper dump then, rather than freaking out about 6 tiny random municipalities in Castilla where VOX have done really well


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Starry Eyed Jagaloon on April 28, 2019, 01:22:20 PM
Excluding the Catalan separatist parties, wouldn't the smaller regionalist ones be more likely to support the left leaning bloc than right leaning?  Looks like it will be a mess and possibly another election later this year although I think smaller parties would be more likely to support left than right.  Right pretty much has to hit 176 or get very close to realistically govern.  And if they do hit that, do they have Popular Party or Citizens lead the way.  I would think Citizens would have a better chance of working with smaller parties than Popular Party.

Likewise if PSOE + Citizens have majority is there any chance Citizens will reverse their cordon sanitaire as there will probably a lot of pressure including from the EU for the two to work together since both are the most pro-EU.

The only proper regionalist parties that will apparently make it will be CC and UPN

UPN contested the election alongside PP and Cs as Navarra Suma so I doubt it.

CC hates Podemos so it's also very unlikely, though slightly less likely. CC is a Marxist party in the Groucho sense: "these are our principles, if you don't like them, we have others"; and they did abstain on Sánchez's confidence vote.

However I would not count on them
But CC-C's-PSOE is reasonably likely, no?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 01:23:39 PM
How long till the results start to come through? I'm not sure if I can bear another late night watching early hope turn into crushing despair... :)

In the next minutes, i think results will start coming in. By 22:00h, the overall image will be clear.

I think they said they won't release data until the Canaries are done voting.

So hopefully we get a proper dump then, rather than freaking out about 6 tiny randome municipalities in Castilla here VOX have done really well

Yeah their counting right now, but results bomb will come at 21.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 01:27:15 PM
Election day poll for the Valencian regional election. Unlike the general election ones, this one is VERY different from the earlier polls, so be ready for surprises

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jeron on April 28, 2019, 01:27:38 PM
Excluding the Catalan separatist parties, wouldn't the smaller regionalist ones be more likely to support the left leaning bloc than right leaning?  Looks like it will be a mess and possibly another election later this year although I think smaller parties would be more likely to support left than right.  Right pretty much has to hit 176 or get very close to realistically govern.  And if they do hit that, do they have Popular Party or Citizens lead the way.  I would think Citizens would have a better chance of working with smaller parties than Popular Party.

Likewise if PSOE + Citizens have majority is there any chance Citizens will reverse their cordon sanitaire as there will probably a lot of pressure including from the EU for the two to work together since both are the most pro-EU.

The only proper regionalist parties that will apparently make it will be CC and UPN

UPN contested the election alongside PP and Cs as Navarra Suma so I doubt it.

CC hates Podemos so it's also very unlikely, though slightly less likely. CC is a Marxist party in the Groucho sense: "these are our principles, if you don't like them, we have others"; and they did abstain on Sánchez's confidence vote.

However I would not count on them
But CC-C's-PSOE is reasonably likely, no?

No, Cs has repeatedly excluded a coalition with PSOE!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Mike88 on April 28, 2019, 01:27:41 PM
PP has lost Galicia for the first time ever, according to the polls.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 28, 2019, 01:28:12 PM
Election day poll for the Valencian regional election. Unlike the general election ones, this one is VERY different from the earlier polls, so be ready for surprises
In which direction?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 01:28:29 PM
Excluding the Catalan separatist parties, wouldn't the smaller regionalist ones be more likely to support the left leaning bloc than right leaning?  Looks like it will be a mess and possibly another election later this year although I think smaller parties would be more likely to support left than right.  Right pretty much has to hit 176 or get very close to realistically govern.  And if they do hit that, do they have Popular Party or Citizens lead the way.  I would think Citizens would have a better chance of working with smaller parties than Popular Party.

Likewise if PSOE + Citizens have majority is there any chance Citizens will reverse their cordon sanitaire as there will probably a lot of pressure including from the EU for the two to work together since both are the most pro-EU.

The only proper regionalist parties that will apparently make it will be CC and UPN

UPN contested the election alongside PP and Cs as Navarra Suma so I doubt it.

CC hates Podemos so it's also very unlikely, though slightly less likely. CC is a Marxist party in the Groucho sense: "these are our principles, if you don't like them, we have others"; and they did abstain on Sánchez's confidence vote.

However I would not count on them
But CC-C's-PSOE is reasonably likely, no?

No, because Cs is very against that. If Cs makes a 180 then yeah, it's possible; but I think Cs has gone too far to justify a 180


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 01:32:45 PM
Election day poll for the Valencian regional election. Unlike the general election ones, this one is VERY different from the earlier polls, so be ready for surprises
In which direction?

Compromís (Valencian nationalists) much higher than expected
Cs MUCH lower than expected (like half as much)
Vox overperforming
PP and PSOE slightly underperforming
Podemos slightly overperforming


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 01:33:58 PM
PP has lost Galicia for the first time ever, according to the polls.

Expect the map to be near 100% red considering these vote splits, but the block and seat map will be more telling.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 28, 2019, 01:36:49 PM
From what we have now, it seems as if right-wing voters moved further right (and the right-wing parties all moved right) but moderate voters opted for the PSOE after all, with left-wing UP/PSOE swing voters coming home for UP after Sanchez' debate failure.

If (big if) this is accurate, C's are probably to blame for losing the election for the right by being way too open about how nationalist and right-wing they actually are. They shouldn't even be competing for voters with PP so much, they should also be competing with PSOE and then take their seats to the right.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: #TheShadowyAbyss on April 28, 2019, 01:37:04 PM
anyone have a link to results?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 01:37:37 PM
Election day poll for the Valencian regional election. Unlike the general election ones, this one is VERY different from the earlier polls, so be ready for surprises

()

BTW IMOP/COPEs Valencia exit poll has Compromis leading by .5%, but lower in seats.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jeron on April 28, 2019, 01:37:43 PM
Excluding the Catalan separatist parties, wouldn't the smaller regionalist ones be more likely to support the left leaning bloc than right leaning?  Looks like it will be a mess and possibly another election later this year although I think smaller parties would be more likely to support left than right.  Right pretty much has to hit 176 or get very close to realistically govern.  And if they do hit that, do they have Popular Party or Citizens lead the way.  I would think Citizens would have a better chance of working with smaller parties than Popular Party.

Likewise if PSOE + Citizens have majority is there any chance Citizens will reverse their cordon sanitaire as there will probably a lot of pressure including from the EU for the two to work together since both are the most pro-EU.

The only proper regionalist parties that will apparently make it will be CC and UPN

UPN contested the election alongside PP and Cs as Navarra Suma so I doubt it.

CC hates Podemos so it's also very unlikely, though slightly less likely. CC is a Marxist party in the Groucho sense: "these are our principles, if you don't like them, we have others"; and they did abstain on Sánchez's confidence vote.

However I would not count on them

Well, Compromis would suppport PSOE/Podemos of course but they only have one seat in this poll. And PNV (Basque nationalists) supported the PSOE government as well


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Tender Branson on April 28, 2019, 01:39:00 PM

I posted them earlier today (first results should come in ca. 20 minutes):

It seems as if this is going to be the official results page from the Interior Ministry:

https://www.resultados.eleccionesgenerales19.es/Inicio/es

El Pais:

https://resultados.elpais.com/elecciones/generales.html

El Mundo:

https://www.elmundo.es/elecciones/elecciones-generales/resultados


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 01:39:43 PM

https://resultados.elpais.com/elecciones/generales.html

https://www.resultados.eleccionesgenerales19.es/Congreso/Total-nacional/0/es

Everyones tied at 0 right now, but results are being counted. There is an embargo for 20 more minutes until the Canaries polls close, and then there will be a results bomb. 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: parochial boy on April 28, 2019, 01:40:54 PM
Excluding the Catalan separatist parties, wouldn't the smaller regionalist ones be more likely to support the left leaning bloc than right leaning?  Looks like it will be a mess and possibly another election later this year although I think smaller parties would be more likely to support left than right.  Right pretty much has to hit 176 or get very close to realistically govern.  And if they do hit that, do they have Popular Party or Citizens lead the way.  I would think Citizens would have a better chance of working with smaller parties than Popular Party.

Likewise if PSOE + Citizens have majority is there any chance Citizens will reverse their cordon sanitaire as there will probably a lot of pressure including from the EU for the two to work together since both are the most pro-EU.

The only proper regionalist parties that will apparently make it will be CC and UPN

UPN contested the election alongside PP and Cs as Navarra Suma so I doubt it.

CC hates Podemos so it's also very unlikely, though slightly less likely. CC is a Marxist party in the Groucho sense: "these are our principles, if you don't like them, we have others"; and they did abstain on Sánchez's confidence vote.

However I would not count on them

Well, Compromis would suppport PSOE/Podemos of course but they only have one seat in this poll. And PNV (Basque nationalists) supported the PSOE government as well

Regional breakdowns of a national poll though. Not likely to be very accurate at that level.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 01:42:55 PM
From what we have now, it seems as if right-wing voters moved further right (and the right-wing parties all moved right) but moderate voters opted for the PSOE after all, with left-wing UP/PSOE swing voters coming home for UP after Sanchez' debate failure.

If (big if) this is accurate, C's are probably to blame for losing the election for the right by being way too open about how nationalist and right-wing they actually are. They shouldn't even be competing for voters with PP so much, they should also be competing with PSOE and then take their seats to the right.

I agree. But I also think that both Rivera and typical Cs voters are a lot more right wing than people normally think. It's not a centrist party. They certainly could become that and pick off PSOE voters, but that could risk bleeding voters to the PP.

The closest analog I can think of is Kulanu in Israel. They could theoretically move left, but there isn't any benefit to the party itself even though it could expand the bloc.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 01:43:27 PM

https://www.resultados.eleccionesgenerales19.es/Congreso/Total-nacional/0/es

Don't expect anything until 15 minutes from now though


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 01:44:08 PM
Election day poll for the Valencian regional election. Unlike the general election ones, this one is VERY different from the earlier polls, so be ready for surprises

()

BTW IMOP/COPEs Valencia exit poll has Compromis leading by .5%, but lower in seats.

Is compromis more leftist than PSOE?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 01:44:17 PM
Gad3 projections for regions (that make up their previous poll) are releasing. Only caught a few on my stream.

Madrid

10 Seats PSOE
8 PP
7 CS
6-7 Podemos
5-6 VOX

Everyone 1 in Cantabria

Castile & leon

PSOE and PP tied at 11-12
C's 5
Vox 2
Podemos 1

Castile La mancha
8 PSOE
5-6 PP
3-4 C's
3 Vox
1 Podemos

Catalonia
13-14 ERC
12-13 PSOE
8 podemos
5 C's
5 JxC
2 PP
1 Vox
1 Other

Ceuta goes Vox

Melila goes PP

Extramadura
5 PSOE
2 PP
2 Vox
1 C's

Galicia
9-10 PSOE
8 PP
2-3 Podemos
2 C's
1Vox



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jeron on April 28, 2019, 01:44:30 PM


If (big if) this is accurate, C's are probably to blame for losing the election for the right by being way too open about how nationalist and right-wing they actually are. They shouldn't even be competing for voters with PP so much, they should also be competing with PSOE and then take their seats to the right.

True, but it is hard to compete with PSOE for centrist voters when Cs govern with Vox in Andalucia and seem to want to govern with Vox nationally.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 01:47:17 PM
Map of the election according to IMOP-Cadena COPE's exit poll



Probably hilariously inaccurate, but worth sharing. Interesting to see that Vox wins only 1 province but that said province is not Almería but Valencia!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 28, 2019, 01:47:44 PM
If (big if) this is accurate, C's are probably to blame for losing the election for the right by being way too open about how nationalist and right-wing they actually are. They shouldn't even be competing for voters with PP so much, they should also be competing with PSOE and then take their seats to the right.
True, but it is hard to compete with PSOE for centrist voters when Cs govern with Vox in Andalucia and seem to want to govern with Vox nationally.
Yes, so they should have distanced themselves more from that impression.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: mileslunn on April 28, 2019, 01:48:46 PM
Gad3 projections for regions (that make up their previous poll) are releasing. Only caught a few on my stream.

Madrid

10 Seats PSOE
8 PP
7 CS
6-7 Podemos
5-6 VOX

Everyone 1 in Cantabria

Castile & leon

PSOE and PP tied at 11-12
C's 5
Vox 2
Podemos 1

Castile La mancha
8 PSOE
5-6 PP
3-4 C's
3 Vox
1 Podemos

Catalonia
13-14 ERC
12-13 PSOE
8 podemos
5 C's
5 JxC
2 PP
1 Vox
1 Other

Ceuta goes Vox


Results in Madrid seem big deal for left as usually it votes right.  Ceuta going Vox is no surprise and I suspect they will win Melilla too.  That is ground zero for illegal immigration so makes a lot of sense.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 01:50:48 PM
The big catch from the Gad3 seat projection has to be Galicia. Left block has more seats there then Right.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 01:52:24 PM
Gad3 projections for regions (that make up their previous poll) are releasing. Only caught a few on my stream.

Madrid

10 Seats PSOE
8 PP
7 CS
6-7 Podemos
5-6 VOX

Everyone 1 in Cantabria

Castile & leon

PSOE and PP tied at 11-12
C's 5
Vox 2
Podemos 1

Castile La mancha
8 PSOE
5-6 PP
3-4 C's
3 Vox
1 Podemos

Catalonia
13-14 ERC
12-13 PSOE
8 podemos
5 C's
5 JxC
2 PP
1 Vox
1 Other

Ceuta goes Vox

Melila goes PP

Extramadura
5 PSOE
2 PP
2 Vox
1 C's

Galicia
9-10 PSOE
8 PP
2-3 Podemos
2 C's
1Vox



I have no clue what is happening in Castle and Leon, which is Spain's Catholic and right wing heartland. Madrid also looks surprisingly poor for Vox, where they were expected to do quote well.

Also, as I expected, the Catalonian turnout surge did end up helping the Socialists perhaps more than anyone else in the region.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jeron on April 28, 2019, 01:52:31 PM
The big catch from the Gad3 seat projection has to be Galicia. Left block has more seats there then Right.

That would be disastrous for PP


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 28, 2019, 01:53:18 PM
Wonder what this means for Casado.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 01:53:54 PM
The big catch from the Gad3 seat projection has to be Galicia. Left block has more seats there then Right.

Not that surprising. From my analysis I did a while back, the left and the right have been roughly tied in Galicia since the early 00s.

However, it didn't appear that way because PP was united (and still is for the most part) while the left was split between BNG and PSOE.

It's not even the first time it happens; in 2004 the left and the right tied in Galicia and in 2008 the left won by 1 seat (11 for PP; 10 for PSOE and 2 for BNG)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Skye on April 28, 2019, 01:55:15 PM
Gad3 projections for regions (that make up their previous poll) are releasing. Only caught a few on my stream.

Madrid

10 Seats PSOE
8 PP
7 CS
6-7 Podemos
5-6 VOX

Everyone 1 in Cantabria

Castile & leon

PSOE and PP tied at 11-12
C's 5
Vox 2
Podemos 1

Castile La mancha
8 PSOE
5-6 PP
3-4 C's
3 Vox
1 Podemos

Catalonia
13-14 ERC
12-13 PSOE
8 podemos
5 C's
5 JxC
2 PP
1 Vox
1 Other

Ceuta goes Vox

Melila goes PP

Extramadura
5 PSOE
2 PP
2 Vox
1 C's

Galicia
9-10 PSOE
8 PP
2-3 Podemos
2 C's
1Vox



I have no clue what is happening in Castle and Leon, which is Spain's Catholic and right wing heartland. Madrid also looks surprisingly poor for Vox, where they were expected to do quote well.

Also, as I expected, the Catalonian turnout surge did end up helping the Socialists perhaps more than anyone else in the region.

What do you mean? The right seems to be doing fine in Castile and Leon.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 01:55:50 PM
Gad3 projections for regions (that make up their previous poll) are releasing. Only caught a few on my stream.

Madrid

10 Seats PSOE
8 PP
7 CS
6-7 Podemos
5-6 VOX

Everyone 1 in Cantabria

Castile & leon

PSOE and PP tied at 11-12
C's 5
Vox 2
Podemos 1

Castile La mancha
8 PSOE
5-6 PP
3-4 C's
3 Vox
1 Podemos

Catalonia
13-14 ERC
12-13 PSOE
8 podemos
5 C's
5 JxC
2 PP
1 Vox
1 Other

Ceuta goes Vox


Results in Madrid seem big deal for left as usually it votes right.  Ceuta going Vox is no surprise and I suspect they will win Melilla too.  That is ground zero for illegal immigration so makes a lot of sense.

Can someone explain why two cities in Africa are enthusiastic supporters of the party that is campaigning against Africans? It seems that if Africans creep you out maybe, you know, Africa is not the best place to live.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 01:58:13 PM
Wonder what this means for Casado.

It seemed like a dumb move in the first place for PP to chase him to the right. It didn't endear the far right and it alienated everyone else.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Tender Branson on April 28, 2019, 01:59:13 PM
Time for the votes to come in !

I guess ~28 million votes were cast, or ca. 76% turnout (+9%).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Lord Halifax on April 28, 2019, 01:59:39 PM
Gad3 projections for regions (that make up their previous poll) are releasing. Only caught a few on my stream.

Madrid

10 Seats PSOE
8 PP
7 CS
6-7 Podemos
5-6 VOX

Everyone 1 in Cantabria

Castile & leon

PSOE and PP tied at 11-12
C's 5
Vox 2
Podemos 1

Castile La mancha
8 PSOE
5-6 PP
3-4 C's
3 Vox
1 Podemos

Catalonia
13-14 ERC
12-13 PSOE
8 podemos
5 C's
5 JxC
2 PP
1 Vox
1 Other

Ceuta goes Vox


Results in Madrid seem big deal for left as usually it votes right.  Ceuta going Vox is no surprise and I suspect they will win Melilla too.  That is ground zero for illegal immigration so makes a lot of sense.

Can someone explain why two cities in Africa are enthusiastic supporters of the party that is campaigning against Africans? It seems that if Africans creep you out maybe, you know, Africa is not the best place to live.

They are Spaniards living on the edge of North Africa, not "Africans".


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: mileslunn on April 28, 2019, 02:00:18 PM
Gad3 projections for regions (that make up their previous poll) are releasing. Only caught a few on my stream.

Madrid

10 Seats PSOE
8 PP
7 CS
6-7 Podemos
5-6 VOX

Everyone 1 in Cantabria

Castile & leon

PSOE and PP tied at 11-12
C's 5
Vox 2
Podemos 1

Castile La mancha
8 PSOE
5-6 PP
3-4 C's
3 Vox
1 Podemos

Catalonia
13-14 ERC
12-13 PSOE
8 podemos
5 C's
5 JxC
2 PP
1 Vox
1 Other

Ceuta goes Vox


Results in Madrid seem big deal for left as usually it votes right.  Ceuta going Vox is no surprise and I suspect they will win Melilla too.  That is ground zero for illegal immigration so makes a lot of sense.

Can someone explain why two cities in Africa are enthusiastic supporters of the party that is campaigning against Africans? It seems that if Africans creep you out maybe, you know, Africa is not the best place to live.

Most living there are Spaniards not Africans and they have a real problem with illegal immigration.  Since these are the only two enclaves in mainland Africa that are part of the EU and there are no internal border controls in mainland Europe once you get into those if not caught you can go anywhere in Europe.  They get far more illegal immigration than elsewhere in Spain.  Same reason why some of the strongest supporters of tough on illegal immigration in US live right along the Mexican border.  You see it more so more of an issue than those further away where it impacts their lives less.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 02:00:23 PM
Gad3 projections for regions (that make up their previous poll) are releasing. Only caught a few on my stream.

Madrid

10 Seats PSOE
8 PP
7 CS
6-7 Podemos
5-6 VOX

Everyone 1 in Cantabria

Castile & leon

PSOE and PP tied at 11-12
C's 5
Vox 2
Podemos 1

Castile La mancha
8 PSOE
5-6 PP
3-4 C's
3 Vox
1 Podemos

Catalonia
13-14 ERC
12-13 PSOE
8 podemos
5 C's
5 JxC
2 PP
1 Vox
1 Other

Ceuta goes Vox

Melila goes PP

Extramadura
5 PSOE
2 PP
2 Vox
1 C's

Galicia
9-10 PSOE
8 PP
2-3 Podemos
2 C's
1Vox



I have no clue what is happening in Castle and Leon, which is Spain's Catholic and right wing heartland. Madrid also looks surprisingly poor for Vox, where they were expected to do quote well.

Also, as I expected, the Catalonian turnout surge did end up helping the Socialists perhaps more than anyone else in the region.

What do you mean? The right seems to be doing fine in Castile and Leon.

The PP and PSOE are tied and Vox only nets 2 seats. Given the usual dominance of the PP there that is a really bad result for not only the PP but the whole rightist bloc.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 02:00:34 PM
Gad3 projections for regions (that make up their previous poll) are releasing. Only caught a few on my stream.

Madrid

10 Seats PSOE
8 PP
7 CS
6-7 Podemos
5-6 VOX

Everyone 1 in Cantabria

Castile & leon

PSOE and PP tied at 11-12
C's 5
Vox 2
Podemos 1

Castile La mancha
8 PSOE
5-6 PP
3-4 C's
3 Vox
1 Podemos

Catalonia
13-14 ERC
12-13 PSOE
8 podemos
5 C's
5 JxC
2 PP
1 Vox
1 Other

Ceuta goes Vox


Results in Madrid seem big deal for left as usually it votes right.  Ceuta going Vox is no surprise and I suspect they will win Melilla too.  That is ground zero for illegal immigration so makes a lot of sense.

Can someone explain why two cities in Africa are enthusiastic supporters of the party that is campaigning against Africans? It seems that if Africans creep you out maybe, you know, Africa is not the best place to live.

On top of inmigration being a huge issue over there for obvious reasons, they also have very high military populations


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Diouf on April 28, 2019, 02:02:10 PM
Now that we have seen Hello Kitty in Gran Canaria, the results can officially start coming in!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 28, 2019, 02:02:14 PM
Votedump seems disproportionately from Basque Country.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Mike88 on April 28, 2019, 02:02:31 PM
4.2% in:

28.4% PSOE
19.0% PP
10.8% C's
11.5% UP
  7.9% Vox


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 02:02:50 PM
Gad3 projections for regions (that make up their previous poll) are releasing. Only caught a few on my stream.

Madrid

10 Seats PSOE
8 PP
7 CS
6-7 Podemos
5-6 VOX

Everyone 1 in Cantabria

Castile & leon

PSOE and PP tied at 11-12
C's 5
Vox 2
Podemos 1

Castile La mancha
8 PSOE
5-6 PP
3-4 C's
3 Vox
1 Podemos

Catalonia
13-14 ERC
12-13 PSOE
8 podemos
5 C's
5 JxC
2 PP
1 Vox
1 Other

Ceuta goes Vox


Results in Madrid seem big deal for left as usually it votes right.  Ceuta going Vox is no surprise and I suspect they will win Melilla too.  That is ground zero for illegal immigration so makes a lot of sense.

Can someone explain why two cities in Africa are enthusiastic supporters of the party that is campaigning against Africans? It seems that if Africans creep you out maybe, you know, Africa is not the best place to live.

They are Spaniards living on the edge of North Africa, not "Africans".

Right. But they are living in autonomous Spanish cities in Africa.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: mileslunn on April 28, 2019, 02:06:22 PM
4.2% in:

28.4% PSOE
19.0% PP
10.8% C's
11.5% UP
  7.9% Vox

What part of the country are these from?  It seems PSOE and PP getting about what polls suggested, but other three especially Vox way under.  Off course depending on what part of the country these are from may not be representative at all.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: parochial boy on April 28, 2019, 02:07:47 PM
4.2% in:

28.4% PSOE
19.0% PP
10.8% C's
11.5% UP
  7.9% Vox

What part of the country are these from?  It seems PSOE and PP getting about what polls suggested, but other three especially Vox way under.  Off course depending on what part of the country these are from may not be representative at all.

All over, but Basques, Aragon, Castilla y Leon and Asturias have counted th most


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 02:08:33 PM
Vox with a whopping one seat in Almeria right now.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 02:09:11 PM
4.2% in:

28.4% PSOE
19.0% PP
10.8% C's
11.5% UP
  7.9% Vox

What part of the country are these from?  It seems PSOE and PP getting about what polls suggested, but other three especially Vox way under.  Off course depending on what part of the country these are from may not be representative at all.

() From El pais. Grey is Separatist. Looks like Aragon is counting the fastest.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 02:10:07 PM
Votedump seems disproportionately from Basque Country.

Indeed. With PNV at 7% and Bildu at 4.5% that's pretty much a given. The Basque Country is pretty fast at counting votes


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Tender Branson on April 28, 2019, 02:10:14 PM
It looks as if the "exit polls" were mostly correct.

I don't see VOX overperforming the polls based on these early numbers and they will likely end up with ca. 10-12% in the end.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 02:13:09 PM
As of this moment, PSOE+C's has 175. Expect that to change.

Basque County is at 34% Counted, so yeah, votes are biased towards that party of the county right now.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jeron on April 28, 2019, 02:14:30 PM
Votedump seems disproportionately from Basque Country.

Indeed. With PNV at 7% and Bildu at 4.5% that's pretty much a given. The Basque Country is pretty fast at counting votes

Basque country has already counted one third of the vote


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jaichind on April 28, 2019, 02:15:51 PM
With 10.56% of the vote counted it is

PSOE   29.53%
PP       17.42%
C        12.18%
UP       11.90%
VOX      8.59%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Tender Branson on April 28, 2019, 02:16:11 PM
I just realized that I made a major mistake with my prediction for VOX at 16-17% Spain-wide ...

VOX is virtually non-existant in the population-rich Catalunya and the Basque country, which is dragging down their national share of course. VOX would have needed 20% in the rest of Spain, if they are non-existant in these regions.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: mileslunn on April 28, 2019, 02:16:22 PM
I noticed only 325 seats are given, are the other 25 having no results is that why?  For left I show 156 so 20 seats shy, while right is 135 which is 41 seats shy so won't both of those numbers go up as those shows a lot in neither group?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 02:17:23 PM
I noticed only 325 seats are given, are the other 25 having no results is that why?  For left I show 156 so 20 seats shy, while right is 135 which is 41 seats shy so won't both of those numbers go up as those shows a lot in neither group?

Use the el Pais site.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jeron on April 28, 2019, 02:17:55 PM
Vox with a whopping one seat in Almeria right now.

And PSOE in the lead in Ceuta


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Dr Oz Lost Party! on April 28, 2019, 02:18:03 PM
With 10.56% of the vote counted it is

PSOE   29.53%
PP       17.42%
C        12.18%
UP       11.90%
VOX      8.59%

So so far we're looking at an overperformance for the Socialists and underperformance for the far-right.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jaichind on April 28, 2019, 02:19:11 PM
With 10.56% of the vote counted it is

PSOE   29.53%
PP       17.42%
C        12.18%
UP       11.90%
VOX      8.59%

So so far we're looking at an overperformance for the Socialists and underperformance for the far-right.

C usually gets stronger as the count goes on so I think C will increase the most from here.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 02:22:09 PM
Almost 15% in and the left has 164 to the right's 135.

Vox is getting embarrassed.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jaichind on April 28, 2019, 02:23:52 PM
With 17.01% of the vote counted it is

PSOE   29.69%
PP       16.99%
C        13.05%
UP       11.98%
VOX      8.97%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Mike88 on April 28, 2019, 02:24:14 PM
Almost 15% in and the left has 164 to the right's 135.

Vox is getting embarrassed.

And PP!! The margin between them and C's is narrowing, and UP is less than 2% behind them.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 02:25:24 PM
Almost 15% in and the left has 164 to the right's 135.

Vox is getting embarrassed.

And PP!! The margin between them and C's is narrowing...

PP was getting embarrassed the moment they chose Casado. Vox was at least expected to do better.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jeron on April 28, 2019, 02:26:05 PM
With 10.56% of the vote counted it is

PSOE   29.53%
PP       17.42%
C        12.18%
UP       11.90%
VOX      8.59%

So so far we're looking at an overperformance for the Socialists and underperformance for the far-right.

Yes, good results for PSOE in Andalucia and Extremadura


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: mileslunn on April 28, 2019, 02:27:24 PM
Almost 15% in and the left has 164 to the right's 135.

Vox is getting embarrassed.

Actually not totally surprised, polls almost always mess up on the far right, either they outperform big time or underperform big time.  Usually when there is a real threat of them forming government they underperform while when not over.  Examples of underperforming are France 2017, Netherlands 2017, Austria 2017, and Sweden 2018 while overperformance are Germany 2017, UK 2015, Italy 2018, Finland 2019, Norway 2017.  I think the threat of them holding balance of power might have led to some last minute pullback.  A lot who vote far right do so more as a protest vote to send a message to the elites and establishment.  Otherwise they don't actually want them to win, they just hope a strong showing will force government to change direction.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jeron on April 28, 2019, 02:27:28 PM
Almost 15% in and the left has 164 to the right's 135.

Vox is getting embarrassed.

And PP!! The margin between them and C's is narrowing...

PP was getting embarrassed the moment they chose Casado. Vox was at least expected to do better.

PP forgot that most votes are to be won in the center, not on the fringes


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 02:27:45 PM
Just reminding you Guys that madrid sits at 6.26%. There is a lot still up in the air, so lets not bank everything on Basque County and Aragon.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 02:28:25 PM
Over 20% in and the left has 167 to the right's 139. Cs are actually doing fairly well. PP and Vox are definitely not.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 28, 2019, 02:29:13 PM
PP-Cs-Vox seem to lose seats compared to PP-Cs in 2016 in almost all regions. It's going to be PSOE-UP with support from regionalists.

PP forgot that most votes are to be won in the center, not on the fringes
Exactly, and so did C's.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jaichind on April 28, 2019, 02:29:31 PM
I still think PP-C-VOX vote share will end up beating PSOE-UP by something like 3% but it will not be enough to stop PSOE due to mal-distribution of votes on the Right.    Oh well.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: mileslunn on April 28, 2019, 02:29:42 PM
Almost 15% in and the left has 164 to the right's 135.

Vox is getting embarrassed.

And PP!! The margin between them and C's is narrowing...

PP was getting embarrassed the moment they chose Casado. Vox was at least expected to do better.

PP forgot that most votes are to be won in the center, not on the fringes

Is that true anymore.  A lot have been saying centre is hollowing out as we are seeing greater polarization.  I know Spain is very different than US, but certainly in US at least and also some other European countries there is the idea you win by appealing to your base.  Many have claimed social democrats crashing in most of Europe is due to Third way and that Corbyn despite losing but doing much better than most social democratic parties in Europe is proof you don't win through the centre.  BTW I still think elections are won in the centre, but there are a lot of talking heads out there that claim the centre is gone and you win by appealing to base so maybe they listened to those.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jaichind on April 28, 2019, 02:30:27 PM
With 23.02% of the vote counted it is

PSOE   29.72%
PP       16.87%
C        13.57%
UP       11.99%
VOX      9.22%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Sestak on April 28, 2019, 02:30:47 PM
But I thought Vox would emerge to lead the right wing bloc to a majority government?

Total fail lmao


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: parochial boy on April 28, 2019, 02:31:34 PM
PP-Cs-Vox seem to lose seats compared to PP-Cs in 2016 in almost all regions. It's going to be PSOE-UP with support from regionalists.

PP forgot that most votes are to be won in the center, not on the fringes
Exactly, and so did C's.

It's probably too soon but

Saving this for the day PP-Cs-Vox is formed :P

;)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: mileslunn on April 28, 2019, 02:31:41 PM
Just reminding you Guys that madrid sits at 6.26%. There is a lot still up in the air, so lets not bank everything on Basque County and Aragon.

True although Madrid seems to be swinging quite a bit to the left so far.  Off course it depends what part the votes are coming from.  I am guessing the city centre is fairly left wing while suburbs and surrounding rural areas are more right wing, at least that is the trend in most parts of the world.  If Madrid swings heavily to the left would not be surprised, urban/rural divides seem to be growing everyone with traditional left wing rural areas swinging rightwards while traditional right wing urban areas swinging leftwards.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 02:32:25 PM
I still think PP-C-VOX vote share will end up beating PSOE-UP by something like 3% but it will not be enough to stop PSOE due to mal-distribution of votes on the Right.    Oh well.

Yeah, seat distribution in Spain makes zero sense to me. It's almost as nonsensical as Australia. Can someone explain very briefly how this works? Bildu should have like 10 seats right now in a strictly proportionap system.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 28, 2019, 02:33:20 PM
Hahaha, will still happen! Just a bit of delay ;)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Mike88 on April 28, 2019, 02:33:25 PM
PP is falling every time the count is updated. Normally they rise as the vote is counted. I wouldn't be surprised if PP falls to 4th place in terms of votes.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jaichind on April 28, 2019, 02:33:37 PM
I still think PP-C-VOX vote share will end up beating PSOE-UP by something like 3% but it will not be enough to stop PSOE due to mal-distribution of votes on the Right.    Oh well.

Yeah, seat distribution in Spain makes zero sense to me. It's almost as nonsensical as Australia. Can someone explain very briefly how this works? Bildu should have like 10 seats right now in a strictly proportionap system.

D'Hondt on a regional basis.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: skbl17 on April 28, 2019, 02:33:58 PM
Even though such a combination seems unlikely, PSOE-Cs have a majority at the moment.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 02:36:18 PM
With 26% in the left is at 166 and the right at 139. PP down to 66 and Vox up to 23.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jaichind on April 28, 2019, 02:36:20 PM
With 29.60% of the vote counted it is

PSOE   29.80%
PP       16.76%
C        13.97%
UP       11.98%
VOX      9.40%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 28, 2019, 02:37:37 PM
29.6% in

PSOE 29.8% - 132
PP 16.8% - 65
Cs 14% - 51
UP 12% - 33
Vox 9.4% - 23


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: kaoras on April 28, 2019, 02:38:52 PM
Guys, you need to add "ECP- Guanyem el canvi" to UP total, it is its catalonian branch


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Tender Branson on April 28, 2019, 02:39:55 PM
The way this vote count is progressing, VOX will end up with ca. 11.5% to 12.0% and in a tight race for 4th place with Podemos.

PP is now almost cut in half.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jeron on April 28, 2019, 02:40:09 PM
Guys, you need to add "ECP- Guanyem el canvi" to UP total, it is its catalonian branch

Exactly, Podemos now on 39


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jaichind on April 28, 2019, 02:40:26 PM
Guys, you need to add "ECP- Guanyem el canvi" to UP total, it is its catalonian branch

Oops .. forgot about that


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 02:40:31 PM
At almost 30 percent the left counted is only four seats from a majority. I suspect that Madrid and Catalonia are starting to come in more quickly now.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jaichind on April 28, 2019, 02:43:01 PM
With 36.65% of the vote counted it is

PSOE   29.76%
PP       16.72%
C        14.36%
UP       14.03%
VOX      9.59%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: parochial boy on April 28, 2019, 02:44:08 PM
PSOE, Podemos, PNV currently on 176. That would mean no need for any of the independentists...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 02:44:46 PM
Counting Bias

Andalusia: 26.8%
Aragon 47.6%
Asturias 45.2%
Balares 23.7%
Cantabria 35%
la Mancha 34.7%
Cast&leon 53.5%
Catalan 25.5%
Valencia 23.7%
Extremadura 35%
galicia 40.5%
Madrid 14.9%
basque: 68.8%
Murcia 39.2%

So Andalusia still has votes for Vox and Psoe, Madrid for the right, and valancia/Catalan for Psoe/podemos/C's.

Its going to be PSOE+C's or PSOE+Podemos(+Minor) Govt. 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 02:44:53 PM
Only 15% of Madrid is in. The left has 18 seats to the right's 17 in the region.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 02:45:13 PM
PSOE, Podemos, PNV currently on 176. That would mean no need for any of the independentists...

remember PNV is getting overpolled right now.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: #TheShadowyAbyss on April 28, 2019, 02:46:46 PM
The Muslim CpM is currently leading in Melilla


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 02:47:07 PM
PSOE, Podemos, PNV currently on 176. That would mean no need for any of the independentists...

Plus Compromis' seat.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: kaoras on April 28, 2019, 02:48:13 PM
PSOE, Podemos, PNV currently on 176. That would mean no need for any of the independentists...

remember PNV is getting overpolled right now.
Doesn't matter for seat count


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: parochial boy on April 28, 2019, 02:48:55 PM
PSOE, Podemos, PNV currently on 176. That would mean no need for any of the independentists...

remember PNV is getting overpolled right now.

They'll stay on 6 - seats by constituency remember.

even with Madrid being underpolled, if the current breakdown in Madrid stays roughly the same, it won't make much difference to the seat totals

PSOE, Podemos, PNV currently on 176. That would mean no need for any of the independentists...

Plus Compromis' seat.

And the Cantabrian regionalists on one. Not a lot of room for maneouvre though


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: mgop on April 28, 2019, 02:49:56 PM
wonderful results, left wing government will be. pp commit suicide vmro style and "citizens" showed their true right wing colors so they will be completely gone on next election.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: kaoras on April 28, 2019, 02:52:18 PM
The Muslim CpM is currently leading in Melilla

They always count muslim neighborhoods first. PSOE often appears winning the seat with little % counted and then is the usual PP landslide.

What will happen now with Vox irruption is anyone guess though.

Edit: and the same thing always happen in Ceuta.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Mike88 on April 28, 2019, 02:52:26 PM
There is a tight race for 2nd place. The difference between PP, C's and UP is just bellow 2.7%.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 02:59:26 PM
Just over half of the vote in and PSOE+Podemos+Compromis is at 169. PNV would get them to 175.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Vosem on April 28, 2019, 03:01:58 PM
wonderful results, left wing government will be. pp commit suicide vmro style and "citizens" showed their true right wing colors so they will be completely gone on next election.

Cs is literally gaining massively compared with 2016 though??


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Skye on April 28, 2019, 03:02:56 PM
I dunno, but these results seem pretty bad for the PP.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: mileslunn on April 28, 2019, 03:03:07 PM
PSOE + C's coalition would be feasible but C's have ruled this out so I wonder if they regret doing this?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Sestak on April 28, 2019, 03:04:14 PM
C's may actually come in second here? lmao.

RIP PP if that happens.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 28, 2019, 03:09:17 PM
wonderful results, left wing government will be. pp commit suicide vmro style and "citizens" showed their true right wing colors so they will be completely gone on next election.

Cs is literally gaining massively compared with 2016 though??

Right now Cs is getting 15%, 2pp higher than 2016. So yes, oranges are gaining at the expense of the PP. However they are underperforming expectations and it's obvious the Cs turn to the right is giving the centre to the PSOE.

I guess Vox will reach 10% at the end of the night. 5% lower than Steve Bannon predicted.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 03:09:18 PM
PSOE+C's has majority, and PSOE has been loosing seats with the most recent dumps, putting PSOE+Podemos+PNV+Compromis+PRC+CCA/PNC at just 176. But if C's becomes the largest right wing party, the slim chance of the PSOE+C's govt becomes 0.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 28, 2019, 03:12:29 PM
PSOE+C's has majority, and PSOE has been loosing seats with the most recent dumps, putting PSOE+Podemos+PNV+Compromis+PRC+CCA/PNC at just 176. But if C's becomes the largest right wing party, the slim chance of the PSOE+C's govt becomes 0.

Possibly Albert Rivera became leader of the opposition  with his histrionic performance in the debates. It will be extremely interesting to watch the developments in the Spanish Right.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 28, 2019, 03:14:06 PM
PSOE+C's has majority, and PSOE has been loosing seats with the most recent dumps, putting PSOE+Podemos+PNV+Compromis+PRC+CCA/PNC at just 176. But if C's becomes the largest right wing party, the slim chance of the PSOE+C's govt becomes 0.

I think you're forgetting Bildu, though. Politically they're not the best look for Sanchez, but they supported his confidence vote and are a left wing party. Right now they're at 5 seats.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 03:16:44 PM
Most recent dump, the PSOE+Podemos+Loyalist Minors now drops to 175. If PSOE want to build a pure left govt with the present numbers, they need the support of secessionists, either Catalan or Basque.

For this post, I count the Arab currently leading in Melilia as an outlier, and the seat will return to its traditional right when actual votes return.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: bigic on April 28, 2019, 03:20:04 PM

I think you're forgetting Bildu, though. Politically they're not the best look for Sanchez, but they supported his confidence vote and are a left wing party. Right now they're at 5 seats.

Forget the no confidence vote - pretty much everybody except PP and Cs in the parliament supported that.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 28, 2019, 03:20:24 PM
Results in Andalusia are revealing (76.5% reported)

PSOE 34.8% 25 seats
Cs 17.5% 11 seats
PP 17% 11 seats
UP 14.2% 9 seats
Vox 13.2% 5 seats

EDIT: count update gives PSOE 24 seats and Vox 6 seats


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: BundouYMB on April 28, 2019, 03:22:29 PM
Could someone link the results page? I'm having trouble finding it. Valencian regional results too if possible. Much thanks.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Adriano Chiká on April 28, 2019, 03:24:50 PM
Could someone link the results page? I'm having trouble finding it. Valencian regional results too if possible. Much thanks.

https://resultados.elpais.com/elecciones/2019/generales/congreso/


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: BundouYMB on April 28, 2019, 03:25:13 PM
Could someone link the results page? I'm having trouble finding it. Valencian regional results too if possible. Much thanks.

https://resultados.elpais.com/elecciones/2019/generales/congreso/

Thank you!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 03:27:19 PM
Lol the stream I'm watching has PSOE and PP rallies both shown on screen...PP's is so quiet.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: _ on April 28, 2019, 03:29:42 PM
Lol the stream I'm watching has PSOE and PP rallies both shown on screen...PP's is so quiet.

PP's is a funeral not a rally


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Sestak on April 28, 2019, 03:29:57 PM
Stuff seems not to be moving anymore - looks like PP will hang on for second.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 28, 2019, 03:32:30 PM
5th seat in Huelva remains incredibly close between UP and Vox and has been all evening.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 28, 2019, 03:36:34 PM
Catalonia (82.9% reported)

ERC 24.6% 15 seats
PSC-PSOE 23.3% 12 seats
ECP 14.9% 7 seats
JxCAT 12.1% 7 seats
Cs 11.5% 5 seats
PP 4.8% 1 seat
Vox 3.6% 1 seat


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 28, 2019, 03:36:52 PM
Question to our Spanish posters: do people vote tactically, i.e. they know their party (e.g. Vox) can't realistically lay claim to one of the three seats in their region so they vote for a bigger party in their bloc (e.g. PP)?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan on April 28, 2019, 03:44:35 PM
()


Lol at this trending Soraya. I guess Casado is already dead, at least politically speaking.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 28, 2019, 03:46:00 PM
With 79% in Ceuta in, it seems the right-wing vote is so split between PP and Vox that PSOE may actually gain the seat from PP. Perfect illustration of this election.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 28, 2019, 03:46:24 PM
Question to our Spanish posters: do people vote tactically, i.e. they know their party (e.g. Vox) can't realistically lay claim to one of the three seats in their region so they vote for a bigger party in their bloc (e.g. PP)?

People used to vote tactically in previous elections, back in the two-party system era. I guess the 2015 election put an end to that, although it's possible that some people in small-sized constituencies still vote in that way. It's too early to say in this election and at this moment I haven't seen all the provincial results.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 03:50:48 PM
With 79% in Ceuta in, it seems the right-wing vote is so split between PP and Vox that PSOE may actually gain the seat from PP. Perfect illustration of this election.

I was just about to mention this, Its basically an FPTP seat there, so congrats to the PSOE I guess. Melila on the other hand will probably return a PPer once the spanish neighborhoods are counted.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: parochial boy on April 28, 2019, 03:55:43 PM
The big catch from the Gad3 seat projection has to be Galicia. Left block has more seats there then Right.

Not that surprising. From my analysis I did a while back, the left and the right have been roughly tied in Galicia since the early 00s.

However, it didn't appear that way because PP was united (and still is for the most part) while the left was split between BNG and PSOE.

It's not even the first time it happens; in 2004 the left and the right tied in Galicia and in 2008 the left won by 1 seat (11 for PP; 10 for PSOE and 2 for BNG)

Actually, I'm a bit curious about this. Is there any particular reason as to why Galicia has been trending left?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: skbl17 on April 28, 2019, 03:56:53 PM
61% counted in Melilla now, and the CpM has maintained a stubborn ~400 vote lead over the PP.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jaichind on April 28, 2019, 03:57:22 PM
With 92.27% of the vote counted it is

PSOE   28.79%
PP       16.69%
C        15.79%
UP       14.31%
VOX     10.24%

Two blocs pretty much identical which is a disaster for the Right.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 04:00:02 PM
The big catch from the Gad3 seat projection has to be Galicia. Left block has more seats there then Right.

Not that surprising. From my analysis I did a while back, the left and the right have been roughly tied in Galicia since the early 00s.

However, it didn't appear that way because PP was united (and still is for the most part) while the left was split between BNG and PSOE.

It's not even the first time it happens; in 2004 the left and the right tied in Galicia and in 2008 the left won by 1 seat (11 for PP; 10 for PSOE and 2 for BNG)

Actually, I'm a bit curious about this. Is there any particular reason as to why Galicia has been trending left?

I guess the cities became gradually more left wing while the PP leaning countryside became more right wing has been losing population? Also maybe something about nationalism?

Worth noting that the trend was mostly in the 80s and 90s; it has been quite stable between 2000 and 2016


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: rob in cal on April 28, 2019, 04:00:30 PM
  One the one hand in a more proportional system the blocs would be equal, but in that case it would still be  a PSOE government due to the regionalists.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 04:01:14 PM
With 92.27% of the vote counted it is

PSOE   28.79%
PP       16.69%
C        15.79%
UP       14.31%
VOX     10.24%

Two blocs pretty much identical which is a disaster for the Right.

Worth noting that the left has almost always won. Spain has always been a left of center country.

This is the first time the right wins 2 elections back to back in the popular vote, and only the fourth time ever after 2000, 2011 and 2016.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jaichind on April 28, 2019, 04:03:22 PM
With 92.27% of the vote counted it is

PSOE   28.79%
PP       16.69%
C        15.79%
UP       14.31%
VOX     10.24%

Two blocs pretty much identical which is a disaster for the Right.

Worth noting that the left has almost always won. Spain has always been a left of center country.

This is the first time the right wins 2 elections back to back in the popular vote, and only the fourth time ever after 2000, 2011 and 2016.

When I said disaster it was more about the seat distribution. since under D'Hondt PSOE was going to get a lot of surplus seats it was critical that the Right bloc beat the Left by a solid margin to have a chance. Failure to do so was a disaster for them.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Zinneke on April 28, 2019, 04:04:14 PM
Abascal talking about Reconquista is his victory speech...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 28, 2019, 04:06:35 PM
Abascal talking about Reconquista is his victory speech...
Hey, I've seen that movie before!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 04:08:17 PM
Abascal talking about Reconquista is his victory speech...

Doesn't matter now, he can scream in his corner for all Sanchez cares. I'm more interested in Rivera right now, whether he opens the door to govt or give Sanchez the finger forcing him to grab the Basques.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jaichind on April 28, 2019, 04:08:26 PM
Catalonia (82.9% reported)

ERC 24.6% 15 seats
PSC-PSOE 23.3% 12 seats
ECP 14.9% 7 seats
JxCAT 12.1% 7 seats
Cs 11.5% 5 seats
PP 4.8% 1 seat
Vox 3.6% 1 seat

Wow, this is a shock.  I thought there was a good bloc of anti-Independence voters that would flow to C.  Looks like they never materialized and they mostly voted PSOE.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 28, 2019, 04:09:09 PM
Would PSOE even want to govern with Cs, or do they prefer UP and the regionalists? Would be kind of a trip for all these former PP voters that voted Cs this time, LOL.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: parochial boy on April 28, 2019, 04:09:41 PM
With 92.27% of the vote counted it is

PSOE   28.79%
PP       16.69%
C        15.79%
UP       14.31%
VOX     10.24%

Two blocs pretty much identical which is a disaster for the Right.

Worth noting that the left has almost always won. Spain has always been a left of center country.

This is the first time the right wins 2 elections back to back in the popular vote, and only the fourth time ever after 2000, 2011 and 2016.

If I've done my maths right, if you add in the 2% that PACMA, Compromis and the Cantabrians got, it's still a popular vote win for left wing parties though. Even more so if you include the nationalists


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DavidB. on April 28, 2019, 04:13:01 PM
CpM still ahead in Melilla with 77% in. I think this one will be gone for the PP too. Vox shouldn't have run here.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 04:16:18 PM
Podemos is now speaking to their supporters.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: skbl17 on April 28, 2019, 04:20:15 PM
PP now ahead by 24 votes in Melilla (81.4% counted).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 04:20:37 PM
Also RIP the Spanish right in Catalonia and the Basque Country.

Currently PP-Cs-Vox are at 7 seats in Catalonia (down from 11); with 5 of those 7 going to Cs. More importantly they are at 0 in the Basque Country (down from 2).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 04:20:44 PM
Melilla flips to PP.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: windjammer on April 28, 2019, 04:23:39 PM
What is the likeliest outcome now?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 28, 2019, 04:23:44 PM
Catalonia (82.9% reported)

ERC 24.6% 15 seats
PSC-PSOE 23.3% 12 seats
ECP 14.9% 7 seats
JxCAT 12.1% 7 seats
Cs 11.5% 5 seats
PP 4.8% 1 seat
Vox 3.6% 1 seat

Wow, this is a shock.  I thought there was a good bloc of anti-Independence voters that would flow to C.  Looks like they never materialized and they mostly voted PSOE.

Much of the Cs support in last regional elections came from socialist voters, particularly in the 'red belt' around Barcelona. The Barcelona province went to PSOE, with Public Administrations minister Meritxell Batet on top. Cs came in fourth place behind ECP, which is not a good result for Inés Arrimadas. PP won a single seat for Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo: disaster. Vox won another seat.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Zinneke on April 28, 2019, 04:28:16 PM
I think even some right-wing voters value the autonomous governments. Vox pushed the other two parties to basically say they would invoke article 155 on a more permanent basis, and that probably didn´t help their cause at the doorstep.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jaichind on April 28, 2019, 04:29:50 PM
I think even some right-wing voters value the autonomous governments. Vox pushed the other two parties to basically say they would invoke article 155 on a more permanent basis, and that probably didn´t help their cause at the doorstep.

Yep. I figured it was something like that.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 04:32:31 PM
Worth noting that at this point PSOE+Cs do add up to a majority (180 seats). Of course with Rivera's rethoric during the campaign and the fact that they are so close to PP and might be tempted to "go for the kill" a deal between the 2 is unlikely, but it's a possibility.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 04:36:31 PM
Also RIP the Spanish right in Catalonia and the Basque Country.

Currently PP-Cs-Vox are at 7 seats in Catalonia (down from 11); with 5 of those 7 going to Cs. More importantly they are at 0 in the Basque Country (down from 2).


Looking at

https://resultados.elpais.com/elecciones/2019/generales/congreso/13/

It seems PP and C for that matter, did not even run candidates there.   What happened ?

PP and Cs ran on a joint list with a local right wing regionalist (but unionist) party named UPN, as part of Navarra Suma (NA+)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jaichind on April 28, 2019, 04:42:06 PM
With 97.82% of the vote counted it is

PSOE   28.70%
PP       16.69%
C        15.83%
UP       14.30%
VOX     10.26%

It is interesting to note that PSOE+UP are at 43% which is a decrease from 2016 by 0.78%.  I guess the various regionalism parties gained a  lot from greater turnout and increased vote share.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: windjammer on April 28, 2019, 04:47:27 PM
So Sanchez will need bildu right?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: EastAnglianLefty on April 28, 2019, 04:50:56 PM
With 92.27% of the vote counted it is

PSOE   28.79%
PP       16.69%
C        15.79%
UP       14.31%
VOX     10.24%

Two blocs pretty much identical which is a disaster for the Right.

Worth noting that the left has almost always won. Spain has always been a left of center country.

This is the first time the right wins 2 elections back to back in the popular vote, and only the fourth time ever after 2000, 2011 and 2016.

I'm not sure I understand. Adding that up makes 43.1% for the left bloc and 42.7% for the right bloc. How can the right claim a popular vote victory?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Diouf on April 28, 2019, 04:51:30 PM

Or ERC or JxCAT. But Bildu might be the least difficult option.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 04:52:04 PM

There are two potential Govts:

PSOE+Podemos+PNV+CCA/PNC+Compromis+PRC gets 175. They need EH Bidhu or the Catalonians to govern, and this would probably entail dropping some of the weaker minors since Eh Bidhu has 4 and Compromis/PRC have only 1 seat.

PSOE+C's simple, but is it practical?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: skbl17 on April 28, 2019, 04:53:24 PM
Will CpM and PP will split the Melilla Senate seats (currently 1/1 with 22% counted) or will PP hold them both?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 04:53:46 PM
With 92.27% of the vote counted it is

PSOE   28.79%
PP       16.69%
C        15.79%
UP       14.31%
VOX     10.24%

Two blocs pretty much identical which is a disaster for the Right.

Worth noting that the left has almost always won. Spain has always been a left of center country.

This is the first time the right wins 2 elections back to back in the popular vote, and only the fourth time ever after 2000, 2011 and 2016.

I'm not sure I understand. Adding that up makes 43.1% for the left bloc and 42.7% for the right bloc. How can the right claim a popular vote victory?

PSOE+UP right now add up to 43.01

Meanwhile the right adds up to 43.20

You need to remember to add up NA+ to the right wing total as that was a joint list between PP-Cs and a regional party; PP and Cs did not take part in the election in Navarra directly

Of course a 0.2% difference is essencially a tie


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 04:54:26 PM
Will CpM and PP will split the Melilla Senate seats (currently 1/1 with 22% counted) or will PP hold them both?

Senate seats with such a divided vote (PP, CpM and PSOE are all tied) can be weird to project, but on paper the most likely scenario would be PP holding both.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 28, 2019, 04:58:33 PM
Sanchez speaking.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Mike88 on April 28, 2019, 04:59:49 PM
The 3 main leaders speaking at the same time...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 28, 2019, 05:04:23 PM
With 92.27% of the vote counted it is

PSOE   28.79%
PP       16.69%
C        15.79%
UP       14.31%
VOX     10.24%

Two blocs pretty much identical which is a disaster for the Right.

Worth noting that the left has almost always won. Spain has always been a left of center country.

This is the first time the right wins 2 elections back to back in the popular vote, and only the fourth time ever after 2000, 2011 and 2016.


I'm not sure I understand. Adding that up makes 43.1% for the left bloc and 42.7% for the right bloc. How can the right claim a popular vote victory?

PSOE+UP right now add up to 43.01

Meanwhile the right adds up to 43.20

You need to remember to add up NA+ to the right wing total as that was a joint list between PP-Cs and a regional party; PP and Cs did not take part in the election in Navarra directly

Of course a 0.2% difference is essencially a tie

As parochial boy noted before adding ERC, PACMA, EH Bildu, Compromis and others gives a slight advantage for the Left.

PSOE crowd at Sánchez's victory speech: "¡Con Rivera No!" "No Pasarán! "



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: RodPresident on April 28, 2019, 05:07:02 PM
If CpM had won that seat, Sanchez wouldn't need to deal with ERC, JxC or Bildu.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Devout Centrist on April 28, 2019, 05:10:07 PM
PSOE + C's is not going to happen


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 05:11:35 PM
At this point PSOE needs at least an abstention from either Bildu or ERC. No idea who of them will cave in the end (if either do). This is a better result than what happened before, but I still think this government won't last the full 4 year term.

It really depends on what the secessionists want to do.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: bigic on April 28, 2019, 05:13:11 PM
If there’s one thing even I as a relative novice to Spanish politics can be confident of it’s that this election will not hinge on the idiosyncrasies of the vote in Ceuta and Melilla...

If CpM had won that seat, Sanchez wouldn't need to deal with ERC, JxC or Bildu.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan on April 28, 2019, 05:14:53 PM
Are there still some places where results can flip and some party can get additional MP? 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Mike88 on April 28, 2019, 05:16:33 PM

Well, it's still very unlikely but, Sanchéz did said in his speech that he will not do "sanitary cord" in Parliament. What does this means? We'll see.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 05:17:50 PM
Municipality map courtesy of La Vanguardia

https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20190428/461917396278/resultados-elecciones-generales-espana-2019-en-tu-municipio.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Rethliopuks on April 28, 2019, 05:18:11 PM
If there’s one thing even I as a relative novice to Spanish politics can be confident of it’s that this election will not hinge on the idiosyncrasies of the vote in Ceuta and Melilla...

If CpM had won that seat, Sanchez wouldn't need to deal with ERC, JxC or Bildu.

Just to make sure I'm not missing anything -- PSOE + UP + PNV + Compromís + PRC = 173, so one seat wouldn't matter, right?

resultados.eleccionesgenerales19.es/Congreso/Total-nacional/0/es


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: bigic on April 28, 2019, 05:19:26 PM
There could be still a small possibility that CC supports a PSOE government.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: RodPresident on April 28, 2019, 05:25:10 PM
If there’s one thing even I as a relative novice to Spanish politics can be confident of it’s that this election will not hinge on the idiosyncrasies of the vote in Ceuta and Melilla...

If CpM had won that seat, Sanchez wouldn't need to deal with ERC, JxC or Bildu.

Just to make sure I'm not missing anything -- PSOE + UP + PNV + Compromís + PRC = 173, so one seat wouldn't matter, right?

resultados.eleccionesgenerales19.es/Congreso/Total-nacional/0/es
PSOE + UP + PNV + Compromís + PRC + CC = 175 only one to magical number...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Rethliopuks on April 28, 2019, 05:30:28 PM
If there’s one thing even I as a relative novice to Spanish politics can be confident of it’s that this election will not hinge on the idiosyncrasies of the vote in Ceuta and Melilla...

If CpM had won that seat, Sanchez wouldn't need to deal with ERC, JxC or Bildu.

Just to make sure I'm not missing anything -- PSOE + UP + PNV + Compromís + PRC = 173, so one seat wouldn't matter, right?

resultados.eleccionesgenerales19.es/Congreso/Total-nacional/0/es
PSOE + UP + PNV + Compromís + PRC + CC = 175 only one to magical number...

Thanks -- so it's fine that CCa is conservative then?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 28, 2019, 05:32:08 PM
There could be still a small possibility that CC supports a PSOE government.

CC and Podemos are not compatible. I have to say CC winning 2 seats is quite unpleasant to me.

Canary Islands (97.8% reported)

PSOE 27.9% 5 seats
UP 15.7% 3 seats
PP 15.5% 3 seats
Cs 14.6% 2 seats
CC 13% 2 seats

PSOE wins 3 seats in Las Palmas and 2 in SC de Tenerife. UP comes second and retains its 2 seats in Las Palmas, albeit with a reduced share. CC comes second in SC de Tenerife winning 2 seats.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 28, 2019, 05:32:41 PM
If there’s one thing even I as a relative novice to Spanish politics can be confident of it’s that this election will not hinge on the idiosyncrasies of the vote in Ceuta and Melilla...

If CpM had won that seat, Sanchez wouldn't need to deal with ERC, JxC or Bildu.

Just to make sure I'm not missing anything -- PSOE + UP + PNV + Compromís + PRC = 173, so one seat wouldn't matter, right?

resultados.eleccionesgenerales19.es/Congreso/Total-nacional/0/es
PSOE + UP + PNV + Compromís + PRC + CC = 175 only one to magical number...

Thanks -- so it's fine that CCa is conservative then?

Yeah, CCa is conservative. They can support PSOE under some limited circumstances, but they are not their preferred coalition party by any means.

Though CC is also, as I like to say, a Marxist party in the Groucho sense. They will change their principles if you bribe them invest more money in the Canaries enough


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Rethliopuks on April 28, 2019, 05:35:14 PM
If there’s one thing even I as a relative novice to Spanish politics can be confident of it’s that this election will not hinge on the idiosyncrasies of the vote in Ceuta and Melilla...

If CpM had won that seat, Sanchez wouldn't need to deal with ERC, JxC or Bildu.

Just to make sure I'm not missing anything -- PSOE + UP + PNV + Compromís + PRC = 173, so one seat wouldn't matter, right?

resultados.eleccionesgenerales19.es/Congreso/Total-nacional/0/es
PSOE + UP + PNV + Compromís + PRC + CC = 175 only one to magical number...

Thanks -- so it's fine that CCa is conservative then?

Yeah, CCa is conservative. They can support PSOE under some limited circumstances, but they are not their preferred coalition party by any means.

Though CC is also, as I like to say, a Marxist party in the Groucho sense. They will change their principles if you bribe them invest more money in the Canaries enough

lol. It's a shame then. If CpM had entered a coalition with either UP or PSOE then the left would have won the seat, per resultados.elpais.com/elecciones/2019/generales/congreso/19/ . I wonder if there was a reason why they did not, though?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 28, 2019, 05:37:03 PM
Remember there is a regional election count going on in Valencia

https://resultados.elpais.com/elecciones/2019/autonomicas/17/index.html

33% reporting

PSOE 28 25,25 %
PP 20 18,88 %
Cs 17 16,61 %
COMPROMíS 16 15,86 %
VOX   10 10,08 %
UNIDES PODEM-EUPV 8 8,22 %



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jeron on April 28, 2019, 05:39:58 PM
Also RIP the Spanish right in Catalonia and the Basque Country.

Currently PP-Cs-Vox are at 7 seats in Catalonia (down from 11); with 5 of those 7 going to Cs. More importantly they are at 0 in the Basque Country (down from 2).


Well. That is hardly a surprise after what happened in 2017 and I am sure the right wing ‘Colon cooperation didnt go well either.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan on April 28, 2019, 05:42:29 PM
BNG surge from 2,8 to 5,7 probably took from Podemos two seats.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 28, 2019, 05:43:52 PM
Valencian Community (General Elections 99% reporting)

PSOE 27.8% 10 seats
PP 18.6% 7 seats
Cs 18% 6 seats
UP 14.6% 5 seats
Vox 12% 3 seats
Compromís 6.4% 1 seat

Apparent vote split between Compromís and UP in regional and general elections


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: RodPresident on April 28, 2019, 05:57:12 PM
https://resultados.eleccionesgenerales19.es/Congreso/Total-nacional/Cataluna/Girona/40/es (https://resultados.eleccionesgenerales19.es/Congreso/Total-nacional/Cataluna/Girona/40/es)
Girona ECP lost last seat to ERC for 939 votes
https://resultados.eleccionesgenerales19.es/Congreso/Total-nacional/Castilla---La-Mancha/Toledo/67/es (https://resultados.eleccionesgenerales19.es/Congreso/Total-nacional/Castilla---La-Mancha/Toledo/67/es)
UP lost last seat to PP for 1729 votes
Tragedy


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Mike88 on April 28, 2019, 06:02:58 PM
I don't understand why Casado didn't resign tonight. 16.7% is a Titanic mode result. If he continues until the Municipal and EP election in May, who knows how low the PP results will be.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: jaichind on April 28, 2019, 06:04:19 PM

Good.  C should let Sánchez deal with the Catalonia secessionists with his very narrow government and whatever he does just join PP and VOX in yelling "Traitor  !!Traitor !! Traitor !!"


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Ebsy on April 28, 2019, 06:09:36 PM
Great to see the Francoists getting what they deserve.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: RodPresident on April 28, 2019, 06:11:26 PM
Great to see the Francoists getting what they deserve.

In Spanish politics getting 1/6 votes is a magical number... C's almost doubled their seats


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: President Punxsutawney Phil on April 28, 2019, 06:14:32 PM
Great to see the Francoists getting what they deserve.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Zinneke on April 28, 2019, 06:16:57 PM
I don't understand why Casado didn't resign tonight. 16.7% is a Titanic mode result. If he continues until the Municipal and EP election in May, who knows how low the PP results will be.

The spanish equivalent of 4chan raised a fund to send some minstrels to the PP headquarters...they are livestreaming on twitch. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/417788228?t=14s

His speech seemed defeatist but it would probably make little sense for the PP to change organisational structure so soon so theyll keep him. Hopefully Aznar s off though.

EDIT : Also PP LOST CONTROL OF THE SENATE which is a huge deal in the Constitutional debate (electoral reform, Catalonia trials, SUpreme Court, etc).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Leading Political Consultant Ma Anand Sheela on April 28, 2019, 06:17:54 PM
It is, I think, abundantly clear that the PP and C's deciding that the Spanish people being angry at the Catalans clearly meant they would eat up a campaign based around Making Granddad Proud because muh global trends/muh Kurz is the most hilariously catastrophic strategic error by a right-wing party since everything the Tories did in 2017.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 28, 2019, 06:39:47 PM
Also PP LOST CONTROL OF THE SENATE which is a huge deal in the Constitutional debate (electoral reform, Catalonia trials, SUpreme Court, etc).

We always overlook Senate, but as you say it's very important in the present context

Results (Total: 208)

PSOE 122
PP 56
ERC 11
EAJ-PNV 9
Cs 3
NA+ 3
JxCAT 2
EH Bildu 1
ASG 1


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Starry Eyed Jagaloon on April 28, 2019, 06:40:10 PM
This is dumb. PSOE+C's is obviously the best possible outcome for Spain, but dumb C's leadership is stopping it. At least Vox flopped.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DL on April 28, 2019, 06:41:30 PM
Looks like the left will retain power in Valencia too


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Sestak on April 28, 2019, 06:42:44 PM
This is dumb. PSOE+C's is obviously the best possible outcome for Spain, but dumb C's leadership is stopping it. At least Vox flopped.

Cs is are barely better than Vox. They've been pushing extremely far right over the last few years and aren't really a standard "liberal" party anymore.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Leading Political Consultant Ma Anand Sheela on April 28, 2019, 06:44:06 PM
This is dumb. PSOE+C's is obviously the best possible outcome for Spain, but dumb C's leadership is stopping it.
They want to have a future in politics.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 28, 2019, 06:47:42 PM
This is dumb. PSOE+C's is obviously the best possible outcome for Spain, but dumb C's leadership is stopping it. At least Vox flopped.

I think you must realize that Cs is not exactly the equivalent of En Marche!, the Lib Dems or the Trudeau boys.

Looks like the left will retain power in Valencia too

73.9% reporting

PSOE 24.24% 27 seats
PP 28-94% 20 seats
Cs 17.25% 18 seats
ompromís 16.17% 16 seats
Vox 10.29% 10 seats
UP 8.05% 8 seats

Left: 51 seats
Right 48 seats


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DL on April 28, 2019, 06:51:33 PM
This is dumb. PSOE+C's is obviously the best possible outcome for Spain, but dumb C's leadership is stopping it. At least Vox flopped.

Cs is are barely better than Vox. They've been pushing extremely far right over the last few years and aren't really a standard "liberal" party anymore.

What does it take for a party to get expelled from the ALDE?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Starry Eyed Jagaloon on April 28, 2019, 06:56:13 PM
This is dumb. PSOE+C's is obviously the best possible outcome for Spain, but dumb C's leadership is stopping it. At least Vox flopped.

I think you must realize that Cs is not exactly the equivalent of En Marche!, the Lib Dems or the Trudeau boys.
Sure, but at least they're pro-Europe, and being hardline on Catalonia is the right call. Anyway, PSOE majority isn't an option, and I certainly prefer C's to UP. Plus, a PSOE-C's government done right could sort of average out to LREM.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on April 28, 2019, 06:57:24 PM
This is dumb. PSOE+C's is obviously the best possible outcome for Spain, but dumb C's leadership is stopping it. At least Vox flopped.

Cs is are barely better than Vox. They've been pushing extremely far right over the last few years and aren't really a standard "liberal" party anymore.

What does it take for a party to get expelled from the ALDE?

aLDE is a joke party with no actual political coherence, even by the standards of EU groups. It contains Fianna Fail, for crying out loud!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: mileslunn on April 28, 2019, 06:57:58 PM
This is dumb. PSOE+C's is obviously the best possible outcome for Spain, but dumb C's leadership is stopping it. At least Vox flopped.

Cs is are barely better than Vox. They've been pushing extremely far right over the last few years and aren't really a standard "liberal" party anymore.

What does it take for a party to get expelled from the ALDE?

In European parliament majority vote by parties represented.  I believe there are attempts to expel Fidesz from EPP so can be done.  ALDE though does include several centre-right parties and some like Venestre in Denmark or Centre Party in Finland have included far right parties in their coalitions so doubt it will happen.  Unlike North America, liberalism in Europe is more the classical type so most ALDE parties would be more comparable to the BC Liberals than federal Liberals.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 28, 2019, 07:14:09 PM
This is dumb. PSOE+C's is obviously the best possible outcome for Spain, but dumb C's leadership is stopping it. At least Vox flopped.

I think you must realize that Cs is not exactly the equivalent of En Marche!, the Lib Dems or the Trudeau boys.
Sure, but at least they're pro-Europe, and being hardline on Catalonia is the right call. Anyway, PSOE majority isn't an option, and I certainly prefer C's to UP. Plus, a PSOE-C's government done right could sort of average out to LREM.

Well, regarding Catalonia I strongly disagree with you. I don't like separatists and some of them are as disgusting to me as the most reactionary nationalists on the opposite side. However, it's impossible to overlook that separatist parties got 47.5% and more than 2 million of votes in the last regional elections. This is a strength comaparable to that of the Quebec separatists at their peak. Like them or not, they have a parliamentary majority in Catalonia and control regional government. In this scenario a political negotiation is imperative. The Spanish Right including Cs has no proposals to solve the political and constitutional crisis in Catalonia. They just promised to invoke article 155 of the Spanish Constitution in order to suspend regional autonomy and implement direct rule from Madrid. Predictably that measure would lead to the inflammation of separatist feelings in Catalonia and eventually to the collapse of Spain. The path of negotiation will be undoubtedly long and tortuous, but it's the only way possible.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 28, 2019, 07:19:47 PM
Rudimentary question: Would a PSOE-Podemos agreement be a formal coalition with ministerial seats assigned to Podemos MPs or is it basically just supply and confidence?

Pedro Sánchez left open the possibility of a coalition government in an interview to El País a couple of days ago. This is a development from his previous stance, because Sánchez stated before he was seeking to form a PSOE minority government with some progressive independents (more or less what we have now). Podemos lost seats but it's strategically well placed so maybe...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on April 28, 2019, 07:21:15 PM
The utterly abysmal result for the PP is a timely reminder to all political parties not to push it; that there's a limit to what even a hitherto extremely hard and loyal electorate is prepared to take.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DL on April 28, 2019, 07:30:09 PM
This is dumb. PSOE+C's is obviously the best possible outcome for Spain, but dumb C's leadership is stopping it. At least Vox flopped.

I think you must realize that Cs is not exactly the equivalent of En Marche!, the Lib Dems or the Trudeau boys.

Looks like the left will retain power in Valencia too

73.9% reporting

PSOE 24.24% 27 seats
PP 28-94% 20 seats
Cs 17.25% 18 seats
ompromís 16.17% 16 seats
Vox 10.29% 10 seats
UP 8.05% 8 seats

Left: 51 seats
Right 48 seats

Now it’s Left 52 to right 47


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Leading Political Consultant Ma Anand Sheela on April 28, 2019, 08:51:14 PM
Getting the left and the Catalans to turn out en masse to own the left and the Catalans.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DL on April 28, 2019, 10:33:25 PM
Are all the votes counted now in Spain or are there still votes from abroad to come that might possibly flip a seat somewhere?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: morgieb on April 29, 2019, 12:10:19 AM
Finally a European election that is a significant rebuke of fascists!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: FredLindq on April 29, 2019, 01:11:45 AM
Why has Catalonia and Paus Vasco became so left-wing?!
Och


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Zinneke on April 29, 2019, 01:18:37 AM
The utterly abysmal result for the PP is a timely reminder to all political parties not to push it; that there's a limit to what even a hitherto extremely hard and loyal electorate is prepared to take.

Yeah and the race to the bottom between them, C's and Vox as to who can be the most hardline on regionalists who want to "destroy" Spain backfired massively on PP in two dimensions : 1. when Rivera cleverly produced their history of allying with the PNV and Convergencia via buying them off 2. When centre right "unionist" voters in said regions realised they still preferred maintaining some semblance of normality there, which includes a devolved government.

This is dumb. PSOE+C's is obviously the best possible outcome for Spain, but dumb C's leadership is stopping it. At least Vox flopped.

I think you must realize that Cs is not exactly the equivalent of En Marche!, the Lib Dems or the Trudeau boys.
Sure, but at least they're pro-Europe, and being hardline on Catalonia is the right call. Anyway, PSOE majority isn't an option, and I certainly prefer C's to UP. Plus, a PSOE-C's government done right could sort of average out to LREM.

Ah yes, 400,000 extra indepe voters for ERC and JxC in the regional election called right after Article 155 as well as a net seat gain in this election (when some seperatists usually tactically vote for left soft unionists in national elections), not to mention that young voters are increasingly more radical in their pro-independence views thanks to the Spanish Right.

Worked like a charm!
  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Sir Mohamed on April 29, 2019, 01:55:19 AM
Finally a European election that is a significant rebuke of fascists!

Well, they entered the legislature for the first time since Franco dictatorship. Not a resounding victory.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 29, 2019, 02:29:30 AM
Why has Catalonia and Paus Vasco became so left-wing?!
Och

National aspirations tend to have liberationist ideological tendency because it is usually a small population fighting for sovereignty against the powerful majority. Think Ireland under British rule, Palestine, etc.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Zinneke on April 29, 2019, 03:37:42 AM
Why has Catalonia and Paus Vasco became so left-wing?!
Och

National aspirations tend to have liberationist ideological tendency because it is usually a small population fighting for sovereignty against the powerful majority. Think Ireland under British rule, Palestine, etc.

Yeah but Catalan nationalism, at least at the leadership level, used to be dominated by a more bourgeois nationalist aspiration of deep seated paranoia of the central state as a tax collector. Rivera was being provocative but his assertion that Pujol, Torra and a few other Catalan nationalist grandees from the Convergencia side have a structurally xenophobic outlook on Andalucians and other Spanish communities is not that far from the truth.

If the nationalists in Catalonia swung towards ERC its because they were afforded an ideal platform with Rufían on national tv debates with his quips and Junqueras, this incorruptible christian guy, being an imprisoned matyr. Meanwhile the successors to Convergencia, Junts per Catalunya, despite their reasonably good results, are kind of a mess.

If the unionists swung left its because they are tired of the issue altogether and PSOE and Podem offered a platform of "convivencia ", peace, etc. while the Right had bellicist rhetoric. I imagine C's knew they were going to be trading votes of Catalan moderate unionists in favour of more right-wing electorates in the mainland.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on April 29, 2019, 07:06:46 AM
Why has Catalonia and Paus Vasco became so left-wing?!
Och

National aspirations tend to have liberationist ideological tendency because it is usually a small population fighting for sovereignty against the powerful majority. Think Ireland under British rule, Palestine, etc.

Yeah but Catalan nationalism, at least at the leadership level, used to be dominated by a more bourgeois nationalist aspiration of deep seated paranoia of the central state as a tax collector. Rivera was carpet bagging but his assertion that Pujol, Torra and a few other Catalan nationalist grandees from the Convergencia side have a structurally xenophobic outlook on Andalucians and other Spanish communities is not that far from the truth.

If the nationalists in Catalonia swung towards ERC its because they were afforded an ideal platform with Rufían on national tv debates with his quips and Junqueras, this incorruptible christian guy, being an imprisoned matyr. Meanwhile the successors to Convergencia, Junts per Catalunya, despite their reasonably good results, are kind of a mess.

If the unionists swung left its because they are tired of the issue altogether and PSOE and Podem offered a platform of "convivencia ", peace, etc. while the Right had bellicist rhetoric. I imagine C's knew they were going to be trading votes of Catalan moderate unionists in favour of more right-wing electorates in the mainland.

Yes, and that's why outside of bougie Catalonian circles the independence movement is not viewed sympathetically and why it's easy for mainstream Spanish parties to brush them off or toss their orders in jail or whatever. Nobody actually believes that the plight of the Catalonian could possibly ever be anything close to the plight of the Palestinian or the Tibetan or the Timorese, so people take it as a kind of charming LARP that rich Spanish people do to pass the tim


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Simfan34 on April 29, 2019, 08:09:22 AM

Well, it's still very unlikely but, Sanchéz did said in his speech that he will not do "sanitary cord" in Parliament. What does this means? We'll see.

...he's willing to partner with Vox?!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 29, 2019, 08:26:38 AM

Well, it's still very unlikely but, Sanchéz did said in his speech that he will not do "sanitary cord" in Parliament. What does this means? We'll see.

...he's willing to partner with Vox?!

Lol no. That only means he is willing to talk to Cs (and maybe even PP). But PSOE-PP is not happening and neither is PSOE-Cs I think.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 29, 2019, 08:30:52 AM
Also, decided to make maps of the election by bloc. The first includes the regional parties on the left-right count.

I decided to put PNV and JxCat on the right in order to better reflect ideology even if they would never do a deal with PP-Cs-Vox.

The 2nd one is pretty much a straight PSOE-UP-PACMA vs PP-Cs-Vox affair.

() (https://ibb.co/xmyZbH8)

() (https://ibb.co/c37yRZy)

You can click on them if you want to enlarge them.

I'll probably do a swing and trend map later.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Simfan34 on April 29, 2019, 08:46:18 AM

Well, it's still very unlikely but, Sanchéz did said in his speech that he will not do "sanitary cord" in Parliament. What does this means? We'll see.

...he's willing to partner with Vox?!

Lol no. That only means he is willing to talk to Cs (and maybe even PP). But PSOE-PP is not happening and neither is PSOE-Cs I think.

Well obviously not, but "cordon sanitaire" usually does refer to far-right parties.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: DL on April 29, 2019, 08:48:56 AM
Also, decided to make maps of the election by bloc. The first includes the regional parties on the left-right count.

I decided to put PNV and JxCat on the right in order to better reflect ideology even if they would never do a deal with PP-Cs-Vox.

The 2nd one is pretty much a straight PSOE-UP-PACMA vs PP-Cs-Vox affair.

() (https://ibb.co/xmyZbH8)

() (https://ibb.co/c37yRZy)

You can click on them if you want to enlarge them.

I'll probably do a swing and trend map later.

Why is Murcia so rightwing compared to neighbouring areas? It was a Republican stronghold during the civil war


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 29, 2019, 08:50:37 AM
 Sánchez said last night that he's not going to treat Rivera in the same way the Cs leader treated him. Anyway Cs came very close to become the first party of the Spanish Right. Rivera said that he will be in opposition and I heard the same thing to Inés Arrimadas today.

Why has Catalonia and País Vasco became so left-wing?!
Och

National aspirations tend to have liberationist ideological tendency because it is usually a small population fighting for sovereignty against the powerful majority. Think Ireland under British rule, Palestine, etc.
If the nationalists in Catalonia swung towards ERC its because they were afforded an ideal platform with Rufían on national tv debates with his quips and Junqueras, this incorruptible christian guy, being an imprisoned matyr. Meanwhile the successors to Convergencia, Junts per Catalunya, despite their reasonably good results, are kind of a mess.

If the unionists swung left its because they are tired of the issue altogether and PSOE and Podem offered a platform of "convivencia ", peace, etc. while the Right had bellicist rhetoric. I imagine C's knew they were going to be trading votes of Catalan moderate unionists in favour of more right-wing electorates in the mainland.

I think Catalans clearly favoured the parties advocating dialogue and pragmatism; to put it in a simplistic manner ERC on the separatist camp, PSC-PSOE on the opposite and ECP in the middle ground. The massive mobilization of Catalan voters, especially in the countryside pro-independence areas, led to an increase of the Catalan nationalist vote in general elections: ERC+JxCAT+FR got 39.4% last night, ERC+CDC got 32.1% in 2016. Keep in mind that Catalan voters behave differently depending on the type of elections. For instance there are ERC voters in Catalan elections that can flip to ECP or even PSC in general elections, as well as it can happen in the opposite way. The image of the imprisoned martyr is very powerful, indeed. Regarding Gabriel Rufián I despise him (childish, provocateur) but he moderated his tone during the campaign. Quim Torra is only a puppet of Carles Puigdemont lacking of political stature; his incompetence as premier and and his past xenophobic statements are deplorable. JxCAT is indeed a mess and there is a pragmatic wing in the old Convergéncia (Marta Pascal, maybe Artur Mas) that is waiting to the next local and EP elections. Depending on results, there could be a reconfiguration of Catalan nationalism...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 29, 2019, 11:51:10 AM
Worth noting the CIS was spotted on, despite the heavy and somewhat justified criticism to the methodology implemented by its director José Felix Tezanos

CIS mega-survey released today. Even though the vote estimation is controversial, there is a lot of interesting data. The sample size is massive and there are seat projections for every province, which must be taken with a grain of salt but give some clues on a number of issues (for instance, the geographical distribution of the Vox support)
()



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 29, 2019, 01:11:25 PM
Block Swing. Left is PSOE, Podemos, Compromis, PRC,  Right is PP, C's, Vox NA+.  Regionalists without any loyalties are treated as such.

You can really see where Vox surged, and how the Andalusian elections might not have been the best predictor for 2019. You can also see how the regionalists gained at the expense of the left, likely Podemos, in 2016.

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: parochial boy on April 29, 2019, 01:18:53 PM
Vox's best provinces, ie over 13% - were the two African cities, Castilla la Mancha (but not Leon, which is a bit surprising), Murcia, Andalusia and Madrid. Not too many other European Right Wing Populists do that well in the capital city...

I'm actually a little bit surprised by Extremadura though. Going by the "dying rural town" narrative, it is almost the first place I would think of, but Vox were really average there (proving that reality is often more complicated than "the narrative" I guess).

Also, I'm going to claim my Kudos for being just about the only person to suggest that Vox weren't necesarilly going to outperform the polls :p


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on April 29, 2019, 01:51:12 PM
Also, decided to make maps of the election by bloc. The first includes the regional parties on the left-right count.

I decided to put PNV and JxCat on the right in order to better reflect ideology even if they would never do a deal with PP-Cs-Vox.

The 2nd one is pretty much a straight PSOE-UP-PACMA vs PP-Cs-Vox affair.

() (https://ibb.co/xmyZbH8)

() (https://ibb.co/c37yRZy)

You can click on them if you want to enlarge them.

I'll probably do a swing and trend map later.

I'm assuming this map is by region/autonomous community rather than province? Otherwise it's odd that every province in the same community has the same shade.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: YL on April 29, 2019, 01:52:28 PM
El País municipality map (https://elpais.com/politica/2019/04/29/actualidad/1556488992_939398.html)

I see Vox carried a few tiny places, but also a handful of bigger ones, e.g. El Ejido near Almería.

Are most of the places C's carried wealthy suburban type places?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 29, 2019, 01:56:25 PM
Also, decided to make maps of the election by bloc. The first includes the regional parties on the left-right count.

I decided to put PNV and JxCat on the right in order to better reflect ideology even if they would never do a deal with PP-Cs-Vox.

The 2nd one is pretty much a straight PSOE-UP-PACMA vs PP-Cs-Vox affair.

() (https://ibb.co/xmyZbH8)

() (https://ibb.co/c37yRZy)

You can click on them if you want to enlarge them.

I'll probably do a swing and trend map later.

I'm assuming this map is by region/autonomous community rather than province? Otherwise it's odd that every province in the same community has the same shade.

Yes, this is by Autonomous community even though the provinces are marked. Mostly because it's easier and faster to take notes of 19 results than 52.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 29, 2019, 02:01:14 PM
El País municipality map (https://elpais.com/politica/2019/04/29/actualidad/1556488992_939398.html)

I see Vox carried a few tiny places, but also a handful of bigger ones, e.g. El Ejido near Almería.

Are most of the places C's carried wealthy suburban type places?

Pretty much all the municipalities Cs carried are suburban/ex-urban places around Madrid, so I would say yes.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: mileslunn on April 29, 2019, 03:16:31 PM
What are the chances of him being able to pass the same budget.  My understanding is if all the parties voted the same way as earlier this year it would be 171 so 5 seats short, but of the two new parties, Cantabria Party and Compromis, those are both centre-left so would probably vote in favour so 173.  Will Sanchez have to tweak it or are there the additional votes to win.  I am guessing the minimum wage hike is fairly popular.  Not sure how popular taxing the banks or taxing the rich more is.  I know it is very popular in some countries, but less so in others so where does Spain stand.  Are a lot upset about income inequality thus want the rich to pay more or is there a fear higher taxes on the rich will just cause them to move to other countries?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: rob in cal on April 29, 2019, 03:59:12 PM
Too lazy to find this, but what places with more than say 15000 inhabitants had the biggest right wing and biggest left wing majorities, outside of the Catalonia and Basque regions.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 29, 2019, 04:51:56 PM
Block Swing. Left is PSOE, Podemos, Compromis, PRC,  Right is PP, C's, Vox NA+.  Regionalists without any loyalties are treated as such.

You can really see where Vox surged, and how the Andalusian elections might not have been the best predictor for 2019. You can also see how the regionalists gained at the expense of the left, likely Podemos, in 2016.

()

The map is very interesting, although possibly misleading in what regards Basque Country and Catalonia. As you say peripheral natiinalists made gains at the expense of the Left. This swing must be ECP loses to ERC and FR in Catalonia and UP loses to EH Bildu in Basque Country (EH Bildu and GBai Navarre). Podemos caught tactical vote from peripheral nationalists in 2015 and 2016. However the Spanish Right was decimated in both regions and the colour blue looks strange in their provinces. If you treat peripheral nationalists as a separate bloc (it's a correct approach, imo), maybe you should reflect that in the map. It's only my opinion, of course.

Regarding Balearic Islands, I think there is no swing to the right:

In 2016 PP+Cs got 49.7% and Podemos-IU-MES+PSOE got 45 5%

In 2019 PP+Cs+Vox got 45.5% and PSOE+UP got 44.2%. MES regionalists left UP and allied with ERC getting 4.9%.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 29, 2019, 05:46:50 PM
Block Swing. Left is PSOE, Podemos, Compromis, PRC,  Right is PP, C's, Vox NA+.  Regionalists without any loyalties are treated as such.

You can really see where Vox surged, and how the Andalusian elections might not have been the best predictor for 2019. You can also see how the regionalists gained at the expense of the left, likely Podemos, in 2016.

()

The map is very interesting, although possibly misleading in what regards Basque Country and Catalonia. As you say peripheral natiinalists made gains at the expense of the Left. This swing must be ECP loses to ERC and FR in Catalonia and UP loses to EH Bildu in Basque Country (EH Bildu and GBai Navarre). Podemos caught tactical vote from peripheral nationalists in 2015 and 2016. However the Spanish Right was decimated in both regions and the colour blue looks strange in their provinces. If you treat peripheral nationalists as a separate bloc (it's a correct approach, imo), maybe you should reflect that in the map. It's only my opinion, of course.

Regarding Balearic Uslands, I think there is no swing to the right:

In 2016 PP+Cs got 49.7% and Podemos-IU-MES+PSOE got 45 5%

In 2019 PP+Cs+Vox got 45.5% and PSOE+UP got 44.2%. MES regionalists left UP and allied with ERC getting 4.9%.

Yep the baleres is a mistake. Thanks for catching it. I treat secessionists/regionalists as a seperate block with color on my other maps, it just gets harder to calculate swing with three factions involved.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 30, 2019, 01:55:25 AM
What are the chances of him being able to pass the same budget.  My understanding is if all the parties voted the same way as earlier this year it would be 171 so 5 seats short, but of the two new parties, Cantabria Party and Compromis, those are both centre-left so would probably vote in favour so 173.  Will Sanchez have to tweak it or are there the additional votes to win.  I am guessing the minimum wage hike is fairly popular.  Not sure how popular taxing the banks or taxing the rich more is.  I know it is very popular in some countries, but less so in others so where does Spain stand.  Are a lot upset about income inequality thus want the rich to pay more or is there a fear higher taxes on the rich will just cause them to move to other countries?

It's too early to say, because the upcoming elections in May (EP, regional and local) will delay coalition building and creation of majorities. In any case, economic measures like increase of minimum wage or bank and corporate taxes could be easily supported by ERC or EH Bildu on an ideological basis. The question is whether these Catalan and Basque nationalists are willing to negotiate and pass the budget. Their attitude might be different in the new parliament (there are signs pointing to this, but it's too early), increasing the government's room for manoeuvre. At this point it seems the possibility of a PSOE-Cs is ruled out and a PSOE-Podemos agreement is very certain. However Pedro Sánchez and Pablo Iglesias have differences on the type of agreement. Sánchez prefers confidence and supply and Iglesias demands a coalition government. Negotiations between PSOE and Podemos will be long. On the other hand, the political situation in Catalonia and the trial of the separatist leaders add a ood deal of complication. As for the question on income inequality, one of the main effects of the financial crisis is that Spain has became one of the most unequal countries in Europe. The increase of inequality and job insecurity are behind the protests in May 2011 (15M movement) and the surge of Podemos in 2014. So there's some unrest regarding these questions in the Spanish society, yes. On the other hand, the fear that higher taxes make the rich move to other countries is more extended among rightwing voters. Also, the Vox surge is connected with the unrest created by the crisis in Catalonia. We have a big mess here...

Too lazy to find this, but what places with more than say 15000 inhabitants had the biggest right wing and biggest left wing majorities, outside of the Catalonia and Basque regions.

There are a lot of municipalities with more than 15000 inhabitants. If I find a list or something, I'll share it here. I'm about to calculate bloc results in the municipalities over 125000. Maybe I'll make a map or something within a few days.

Regarding rightwing municipalities, maybe you should go for the regions and provinces that lean more to the right. For instance, the region of Murcia and Castilla La Mancha.

 Also, you should take a look in affluent municipalities NW of Madrid like Pozuelo de Alarcón:

PP 29.7%, Cs 24.8%, Vox 19.8%, PSOE 16.8%, UP 7%

The municipalities located south of Madrid are working class and lean to the left.

Parla: PSOE 32.1%, UP 19.7%, Cs 19.5%, Vox 14%, PP 10.3%

Former coal mining towns in Asturias are very leftwing

Mieres: PSOE 37.9%, UP 25.9%, PP 13.2%, Cs 11.8%, Vox 6.8%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Lechasseur on April 30, 2019, 03:38:44 AM
I don't understand why Casado didn't resign tonight. 16.7% is a Titanic mode result. If he continues until the Municipal and EP election in May, who knows how low the PP results will be.

The guy's been in charge for a few months, that isn't a lot of time to fix a party like PP that's still recovering from scandals and everything.

Frankly I think had his opponent won the leadership election last year they would have done even worse, and maybe have finished behind C's and lost even more votes to Vox.

I think Casado did as well as the PP could have done. Now if they have a result like that at the next election in a couple years time, that's a different story.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 30, 2019, 04:57:49 AM

I think Casado did as well as the PP could have done.

Sorry, but I don't get it. Casado was unable to contain the loses to Vox despite his desperate attempts. Neither the radical turn to the right nor the calls for tactical voting worked. Apparently the radicalization had a double perverse effect: radicalized voters preferred the original (Vox) to the copy (Casado's PP) and more moderate voters went to Cs. Certainly fixing a party like the PP is not an easy task. Its process of decomposition accelerated after the loss of power. However, I'd say ideological radicalization and depuration of professionally comptent cadres closer to Sáez de Santamaría were not wise measures. Casado has proved to be too anxious and hyperactive, flaws that make him very prone to gaffes. Despite his supporters say he's been too little time in office as leader of the PP, I think it's been enough to reveal his limitations. At least his rival in the leadership contest was efficient and hard working...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Skye on April 30, 2019, 05:11:23 AM
I think Casado did as well as the PP could have done. Now if they have a result like that at the next election in a couple years time, that's a different story.

How? They did incredibly poor and it wasn't exactly because VOX overperformed. These are terrible results for them.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Lechasseur on April 30, 2019, 05:12:55 AM
I think Casado did as well as the PP could have done. Now if they have a result like that at the next election in a couple years time, that's a different story.

How? They did incredibly poor and it wasn't exactly because VOX overperformed. These are terrible results for them.

Does anyone really think that the moderate wing of PP who was probably more linked to Rajoy anyway would have stopped the bleeding of their support to parties to their right? That doesn't make much sense to me either.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Zinneke on April 30, 2019, 05:21:36 AM
I think Casado did as well as the PP could have done. Now if they have a result like that at the next election in a couple years time, that's a different story.

How? They did incredibly poor and it wasn't exactly because VOX overperformed. These are terrible results for them.

Does anyone really think that the moderate wing of PP who was probably more linked to Rajoy anyway would have stopped the bleeding of their support to parties to their right? That doesn't make much sense to me either.

Saenz de Santamaria would not have put utter blockheads like the head of list for the Madrid Community in such prominent positions for a start. And then let's also remember that PSOE have swung leftwards in recent years under Sanchez's stewardship. THe only reason people are screaming "the center has won" is because of Casado's abandoning of the center, making Sanchez-led PSOE the candidate of normalcy.

Sure long term PP to C's transfers is to be expected but this was a car crash campaign from Casado. THe dude litterally sold himself on the same terms as Rivera in relation to peripheral nationalists as his selling point and all Rivera had to do is just produce a headline with "PP in pact with PNV" at the debate. Had the debate been more centred on economics and in particular pensions (which is what the PP centrists are very good at arguing) he could have presented Rajoy's record...which whilst I do not condone, is statistically at least more credible than PP's record on corruption, social issues and peripheral nationalisms.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 30, 2019, 05:24:06 AM
Just did trend maps by autonomous community. These reflect the "PVI" change (sort of) of all autonomous communities. Again, you can click to zoom in.

I decided to split 0-2,5 and 2,5-5 to try to distinguish which were statistical oddities and which reflect real trends. Again PNV/JxCat are included in the right and ERC/Bildu/BNG/etc on the left.

() (https://ibb.co/D9ZGkgK)

() (https://ibb.co/xGXYSCv)

The map with regional parties included is definitely striking, with pretty much all of southern Spain moving hard to the right.

The most surprising PVI result? Andalucia actually voted slightly to the right of Spain at large! (Right+1 PVI without nationalists; EVEN if you include them). First time ever that Andalucia does this. In only 8 years Andalucia has gone from Left+14 to Right+1! A 15 point trend in 8 years!

I imagine in the Spanish equivalent to Atlas we would now be having a discussion about "Andalucia racist rural hicks" vs "Rich Snobby Suburban Galicians" and how Rajoy would be a PSOE supporter now :P


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Lechasseur on April 30, 2019, 05:28:34 AM
I think Casado did as well as the PP could have done. Now if they have a result like that at the next election in a couple years time, that's a different story.

How? They did incredibly poor and it wasn't exactly because VOX overperformed. These are terrible results for them.

Does anyone really think that the moderate wing of PP who was probably more linked to Rajoy anyway would have stopped the bleeding of their support to parties to their right? That doesn't make much sense to me either.

Saenz de Santamaria would not have put utter blockheads like the head of list for the Madrid Community in such prominent positions for a start. And then let's also remember that PSOE have swung leftwards in recent years under Sanchez's stewardship. THe only reason people are screaming "the center has won" is because of Casado's abandoning of the center, making Sanchez-led PSOE the candidate of normalcy.

Sure long term PP to C's transfers is to be expected but this was a car crash campaign from Casado. THe dude litterally sold himself on the same terms as Rivera in relation to peripheral nationalists as his selling point and all Rivera had to do is just produce a headline with "PP in pact with PNV" at the debate. Had the debate been more centred on economics and in particular pensions (which is what the PP centrists are very good at arguing) he could have presented Rajoy's record...which whilst I do not condone, is statistically at least more credible than PP's record on corruption, social issues and peripheral nationalisms.

Yeah, she may have been better on economics, which may have played out well in a normal election, but at any rate what I'm reading in the French language news is that the right did as badly as it did not because of swings to the left but because of massive turnout for the left and for regional nationalists in reaction to Vox, so under those circumstances I'm not convinced that those voters would have winged in favor of somebody who would probably have to go in coalition with C's and Vox anyway. More than anything I think that would have just pushed more solid right-wingers to C's and to Vox.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 30, 2019, 09:33:50 AM
La Nueva España has an extremely nice precinct map of Asturias

https://afondo.lne.es/asturias/el-mapa-del-voto-en-asturias-por-vecindarios.html

Apparently PP was strongest in the city centers, especially of Oviedo. They also won a handful of precincts in the rural west.

PSOE pretty much swept the entire autonomous community. Asturias is a left wing region so no surprise there, but still nice to see.

Cs won a handful of precincts in rich suburban areas in Oviedo and Avilés (the 2 largest cities)

UP won a handful of precincts in the mining town of Mieres. Nice to see mining towns aren't shifting away from the left and into the far right like in say, France.

Eldiario.es also has nice district maps of the largest Spanish towns

https://www.eldiario.es/politica/votaron-distritos-principales-ciudades-espanolas_0_893811644.html

Also, a fantastic map of results by bloc and municipality

https://elecciones.eldiario.es/resultados28a/bloques?_ga=2.200689641.696649284.1556387208-1582734662.1550242349


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 30, 2019, 05:35:52 PM
The PP's national executive met today. There is concern among regional leaders after the downfall a couple of days ago. The new campaign slogan is "Centrados En Tu Futuro" ("centrados"can be translated as "centered" or "focused"). Four days ago, Casado offered cabinet seats to Vox. Today Casado says that Vox is the far right, Cs are "socialdemocrats" and the PP is the only party of the Spanish centre-right. It seems our solid right winger will engage in an accelerated return to the centre. Of course he doesn't want to resign. By the moment nobody is asking him to go because there are elections within next month. The results of Pedro Sánchez in 2015 and 2016 were bad, but nothing comparable to the catastrophic performance of the PP in 2019. If you start to look at local results in certain places throughout Spain the feeling gets stronger. The process of decomposition began before Casado became leader, but his strategy was suicidal and accelerated the decline. This apparent "return to the centre" is the proof.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 30, 2019, 05:41:14 PM
Honestly I think that if there wasn't an election next month Casado should have resigned already.

His shock is on par or worse than people who resigned on election day or shortly after like Suárez 1991 (local elections), Almunia 2000 or Fraga 1986 (who actually went up 1 seat!). Of course we all probably thought the same about Sánchez in 2015 and 2016 and look at him now.

Pablo Casado must be furiously reading Sánchez's "Resistance Manual" right now xD


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 30, 2019, 06:10:15 PM
At least Sánchez managed to resist the Podemos surge in 2015. The purple tide in December 2015 was twice stronger than the Vox surge in April 2019. Later Sánchez managed again to resist the offensive of Pablo Iglesias allied with IU. Unidos Podemos came very close to the PSOE in 2016, but the 'sorpasso' didn't occur. By then Sanchez didn't have full control of the PSOE and he was loathed or understimated by rivals, both internal and external. Pedro Sánchez managed to defeat Pablo Iglesias, Susana Diaz, the PSOE establishment and finally Mariano Rajoy and the Colón Triumvirate. Possibly he is not the most brilliant of the Spanish politicians, neither intellectually nor dialectically. However his resilience and his ability to survive are impressive. Obviouly he's not the handsome idiot that some people believed he was. Pablo Casado must try harder to achieve such level of prowess.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: windjammer on April 30, 2019, 06:19:35 PM
Any comments made by bildu? They will determine whether Sanchez will be able to govern or not after all.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 30, 2019, 06:47:36 PM
Any comments made by bildu? They will determine whether Sanchez will be able to govern or not after all.

Apparently they have said they will have the exact same position as ERC and will vote the same in Sánchez's confidence vote.

Beyond that they seem to be giving mixed signals. On one hand they claim they will support (or at least not oppose) Sánchez. On the other, they are asking for a referendum (presumably not just in Catalonia but also the Basque Country). They do seem to have some constructive rethoric but I certainly don't trust them at all.

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/04/29/actualidad/1556549260_730422.html

https://www.lavanguardia.com/local/paisvasco/20190430/461968425827/otegi-eh-bildu-referendum-pedro-sanchez-gobierno-psoe-presidente-erc.html

I guess the situation will be similar to what happened before. They abstain on Sánchez's confidence vote, but then Sánchez's budget and important laws won't pass and we will go to an early election in 2021 or so.

A more interesting route seems to be this one instead:

ERC and JxCat included 4 people currently in prison and in so-called exile on their election lists, which have all taken a seat. These people, unless they renounce their seats, won't be able to swear in and sit in parliament.

That means that the majority for Sánchez to become president and pass laws will go down. With 4 seats less, that means a 346 member parliament effectively; with 174 seats required for a majority.

Coincidentally, Sánchez and his "comfortable" allies (Podemos, PNV, Compromís and PRC) add up to 173.

At that point Bildu and ERC would no longer be the kingmakers but instead that could also be the Canarian Coalition. They have said they won't support a joint Sánchez-Podemos government or one dependent on secessionists, but they could support a minority Sánchez government. If CC abstained, the vote would become 173 yes-171 no-2 abstain-4 not voting

So if the Catalans don't take their seats a la Sinn Fein, that's another option.

Finally, I've seen nothing from UPN, which would be the final option. They ran alongside Cs and PP in a joint list, but they are still an independent party after all.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Progressive Pessimist on April 30, 2019, 07:54:08 PM
Finally a European election that is a significant rebuke of fascists!

Well, they entered the legislature for the first time since Franco dictatorship. Not a resounding victory.

If I can make an analogy, it's kind of like being served an ice cream sundae. But instead of whipped cream, it came with sour cream.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on April 30, 2019, 08:27:44 PM
Should we discard the possibility of a coalition altogether, then?

No. As I said in a previous post, the upcoming elections in May (EP, regional and local) will delay coalition building and creation of majorities. PSOE and Podemos will engage a long negotiation that will end in some kind of agreement, either confidence and suppply or coalition government. Sánchez and the PSOE want a minority government with "progressive independents"; Iglesias and UP demand a coalition. Nothing will be solved before the elections, so it makes little sense to speculate or make predictions at this early stage.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 30, 2019, 11:33:37 PM
()

Two most shocking shifts in my opinion are the relative  lack of non-participant-> Vox transfers (with most of their voters being formally from PP) and the comparatively large Podemos -> others (regionalists) transfer. Both shifts though were already partially visible on the swing map, which with the Basque/Catalans shifting away from the left block and Andalusia being the only state with consistent right wing swings.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 01, 2019, 02:27:37 AM
Two most shocking shifts in my opinion are the relative  lack of non-participant-> Vox transfers (with most of their voters being formally from PP) and the comparatively large Podemos -> others (regionalists) transfer. Both shifts though were already partially visible on the swing map, which with the Basque/Catalans shifting away from the left block and Andalusia being the only state with consistent right wing swings.

"Others" are neither Catalan nationalists nor PNV, since these parties appear separately in the graph. It must be a transfer from UP to EH Bildu, other regionalists like Compromís and other parties like PACMA. However, I don't see large transfers of non-participants and UP (ECP) or CDC to ERC and the 385k increase didn't come from nowhere. Maybe there's some error in the graph.

PSOE manages to mobilize the largest number of non-participants, as well there's a large transfer from UP. However the graph shows very littletransfer from Cs to PSOE. Of course Vox is one of the main reasons of the PP collapse, but the transfer from PP to Cs is large too. The little amount of the transfers between Cs and Vox is somewhat surprising, as well as the low numbers coming from abstention.

The CIS post-election survey will be released soon and it will provide info about vote transfers and other issues.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: rob in cal on May 01, 2019, 11:10:43 AM
  Its amazing to see the urban vote, especially broken down by district. In the cities, aside from Barcelona and Bilboa, there are so few areas that we see in other western democracies where the parties of the left absolutely dominate, crush the opposition. Instead, they win a lot of districts just getting 55% or less of the vote.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 01, 2019, 07:44:34 PM
Wondeful map of results by precinct nationwide, similar to that map of the 2016 elections linked in a previous page of this thread.

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/05/01/actualidad/1556730293_254945.html

This time my precinct voted as follows:

PSOE 31%, UP 24%, PP 14%, Cs 12%, Vox 6%, CC 3%, Others 10% (presumably NC and PACMA have most of this share)

Nice image from Galicia

()



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 02, 2019, 03:21:28 AM
My precinct for comparison is much weaker for the left:

PSOE: 22%
Cs: 20%
PP: 18%
UP: 18%
Vox: 10%
CC: 4%
Others (mostly NCa+PACMA): 7%

Also, El Confidencial posted an analysis of the differences between Cs voters and PP voters. This isn't exactly new information but it's still very interesting to see.

1: PP wins in rural areas (municipalities below 10k inhabitants), Cs wins in urban areas (municipaliteis above 10k, and especially above 50k)

2: PP performs better among older people, Cs performs better among young people

3: More interestingly, Cs beats PP among rich people, while poorer places tend to vote PP

4: Cs beats PP in places with higher rates of college graduates

5: Cs beats PP among men, while PP performs better with women.

PP's vote seems to have become ruralized, feminized and pensionized according to the analysis. They also gave us a really nice map which does say a lot

Map: https://www.ecestaticos.com/file/73432f701818d283ec7efaa1557b390b/1556725218-20190501maparesultadosmunicipiosppcs-01.png

https://www.elconfidencial.com/elecciones-generales/2019-05-01/pp-ciudadanos-mujeres-pensionistas-sorpasso_1976170/

Posting only a link as posting the map itself pretty much breaks Atlas.

With a handful of exceptions (most notably the "nationalist" regions), the map is quite clear, showing Cs winning in urban and specially suburban areas while PP wins in rural areas.

Madrid province in particular is the funniest example; with Madrid city itself voting PP, the suburban areas around it voting Cs, and the rural areas voting PP.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Ethelberth on May 02, 2019, 04:05:10 AM
Is Aragonia, really that urban.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 02, 2019, 11:53:19 AM

Yes and no. Most of the population is actually concentrated in Zaragoza city, but the rest of the region has extremely low population density, particularly Teruel. Southern Aragon (alongside neighbouring areas from Castille-Leon and Castille-La Mancha) has a population density comparable to Lapland!

Cs does perform strongly in certain rural areas, but PP id much stronger in the rurals at-large


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 03, 2019, 03:09:51 AM
Another precinct map, more complete and with a lot of interesting info

https://www.eldiario.es/politica/votaron-barrios-pobres-militares-barrio_0_894861358.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 03, 2019, 03:18:28 AM
A couple of maps made by myself

Leading party by province (majority). Circles are municipalities with more than 100000 inhabitants.

()

Largest bloc by province (majority).

()

Bloc results:

Left (PSOE, UP, ECP, Compromís) 43.65%

Right (PP, Cs, VOX, NA+) 43.23%

Catalan nationalists (ERC, JxCAT, FR) 6.23%

Basque nationalists (EAJ-PNV, EH Bildu, GBai) 2.58%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 03, 2019, 06:34:16 AM
Remember that one muslim party who was really close to getting a seat in Melilla until like 80% of the vote was counted? Coalición por Melilla (CpM)

Well, apparently they have been banned from participating in the regional/local elections there because of not respecting men-women parity.

Spanish law mandates that in every block of 5 candidates in the list there must be a 3-2 split either way, but CpM's list had 4-1 splits on blocks 11-15 and 16-20. The election authorities as a response have blocked CpM from taking part in the election.

This is very big news, as CpM is currently the main opposition in Melilla, and had a big chance of becoming the next local government. With CpM out of the picture, Melilla seems very likely to remain in PP's hands, with PSOE probably going up and the muslims there abstaining (though many will vote PSOE I guess). CpM of course is suing the election authorities, so maybe they will be let in, who knows.

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/04/30/actualidad/1556652352_178997.html

They are apparently also suing for the general election results, claiming that there was fraud. Just like Vox (who has also been making some noise about fraud), I expect their lawsuit to go nowhere.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on May 03, 2019, 03:06:07 PM
()

Bloc results:

Left (PSOE, UP, ECP, Compromís) 43.65%

Right (PP, Cs, VOX, NA+) 43.23%

Catalan nationalists (ERC, JxCAT, FR) 6.23%

Basque nationalists (EAJ-PNV, EH Bildu, GBai) 2.58%

Fascinating how the two main blocs are basically tied nationwide but the Right is ahead almost everywhere. It's not even just a population density thing, since the Right is ahead in Madrid and some of the relatively dense coastal areas. A lot of it is probably because the national right is so nonexistent in Catalonia and Euskadi.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 04, 2019, 02:05:29 AM
Bloc results:
Fascinating how the two main blocs are basically tied nationwide but the Right is ahead almost everywhere. It's not even just a population density thing, since the Right is ahead in Madrid and some of the relatively dense coastal areas. A lot of it is probably because the national right is so nonexistent in Catalonia and Euskadi.

Yes, Catalonia and Basque Country make the difference for the Left.

Bloc results in Catalonia were: Nationalists 39.4%, Left 38.1%, Right 20%, The Basque Country was even worse for the Right, as it lost parliamentary representation: Nationalists 47.7%, Left 37.5%, Right 12.8%.

Regarding the rest of Spain the results were mixed. Much of the inland Spain is depopulated, with the exception of Madrid. But, as you say, it's not only a matter of population density.

Andalusia is the largest Spanish region by population and is the traditional stronghold of the Left. However, the region is shifting progressively to the right and it was lost for the PSOE in December 2018 after 37 years of continued hegemony. The Left recovered in comaprison with the last regional election, particularly the PSOE. Recovery was limited, though: Left 48.5%, Right 48.3%

Madrid is the third largest region by population after Andalusia and Catalonia: Left 43.5% and Right 53.4%. The reelection as Mayor of my personal favourite Manuela Carmena will be an uphill battle, as the margin in the city of Madrid is similar.

To compensate the Andalusia's shift, the Left has recovered ground in the Valencian Community (4th largest region by population). The Left governs since 2015, after many years of PP rule and massive corruption scandals. There was a leftwing majority in regional elections and a tie between blocs in general elections: Left 48.5%, Right 48.6% .

The result in Galicia is noticeable as well, as this region is another traditional PP stronghold. The Left got 46.6%, the Right 43.8% and leftwing nationalists 6.8%. To the contrary, the Right won in traditional PSOE strongholds like Extremadura (L 47.6%, R 50.1%).



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Ethelberth on May 04, 2019, 03:52:03 AM
Which area are strongholds of CC in Canaries? BNG used to be "promising" in Galicia, but it has nowadays medicore support. Is that due the PODEMOS.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Beezer on May 04, 2019, 05:32:49 AM
Any post-election surveys that highlight demographic preference of the electorate? I assume that contrary to other right-wing populist outfits, Vox did not do as well among the working class?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: windjammer on May 04, 2019, 06:37:01 AM
Have the canarians said anything?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 04, 2019, 07:49:34 AM
Any post-election surveys that highlight demographic preference of the electorate? I assume that contrary to other right-wing populist outfits, Vox did not do as well among the working class?

CIS post-election survey will be released within a few days. Precinct results point that Vox is more popular in affluent neighbourhoods.


CC doesn't want deals with Podemos or Vox


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 04, 2019, 08:02:01 AM
Which area are strongholds of CC in Canaries? BNG used to be "promising" in Galicia, but it has nowadays medicore support. Is that due the PODEMOS.

Well, first of all, here are the results of the 2015 regional election as a start (with the map shamelessly stolen from Velasco)

()

CC's strongest support is in the island of El Hierro (in fact, I'm surprised they did not keep their Senator there!). Technically CC doesn't run there, but AHI (Agrupación Herreña Independiente); though by all intents and purposes AHI may as well be part of CC, that's only a technicality. However, el Hierro is tiny, so they need more votes.

CC also gets a lot of support from Tenerife, particularly rural areas in Tenerife. They also get strong support in Fuerteventura and some parts of La Palma.

Their weakest support by contrast is located in La Gomera (which is the personal fiefdom of Casimiro Curbelo, the local cacique) and Gran Canaria (CC is seen as the "party of Tenerife" and NC as the "party of Gran Canaria" to some extent). Las Palmas de Gran Canaria in particular (the largest city in the islands) is a black hole for CC where they get horrible results.

As for other parties, PSOE gets very spread out resultsm (with southern Tenerife, a touristy area, being their best result?). PP gets its best results in rural Gran Canaria and to a lesser extent La Palma. NCa gets its best results in the GC-1 corridor in Gran Canaria. Podemos gets its best results in Las Palmas city. I imagine Cs gets its best results in comfy upper middle class suburban areas in Las Palmas. And of course ASG gets its entire support from La Gomera for obvious reasons.

As for BNG, they have gone up, but as you say Podemos stole a lot of their votes. However infighting between En Marea and Podemos proper in Galicia has allowed BNG to go up and get most of the nationalist voters that used to support Podemos in Galicia.


As Velasco said, they have said they don't want deals with Vox, Podemos or the secessionists (I imagine their ideal government would be PSOE-Cs with them as kingmakers).

However, I imagine much of their strategy will also depend on the results of the regional election.

If the Canary Islands elect a PSOE led government, they will provably not support Sánchez and go full opposition. If CC does form a government again though; especially if it's a CC-PSOE government, they will probably support Sánchez or at least abstain.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 04, 2019, 08:07:37 AM
Also, Sociométrica released some interesting data regarding the gender composition of both parties.

In general, PSOE and PP (the old 2 party system) get better results among women. Cs gets slightly better results among men but is the closest to a 50-50 split. And Podemos and Vox get their support overwhelmingly from men.

I guess men are just more extremist and women are moderate heroines? Also I wonder if the fact that PP and PSOE lead among women while the "new parties" lead among men is somehow a function of age (with women living longer and being generally older; as old voters do clearly show a preference for PP-PSOE)

()

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics 2.0 (General Elections on April 28, 2019)
Post by: Skye on May 04, 2019, 08:12:28 AM
A couple of maps made by myself

Leading party by province (majority). Circles are municipalities with more than 100000 inhabitants.

()

Largest bloc by province (majority).

()

Bloc results:

Left (PSOE, UP, ECP, Compromís) 43.65%

Right (PP, Cs, VOX, NA+) 43.23%

Catalan nationalists (ERC, JxCAT, FR) 6.23%

Basque nationalists (EAJ-PNV, EH Bildu, GBai) 2.58%

I was compiling these results myself, and I'd like to know where would we put some minor regional parties. Gbai, PRC, En Marea, BNG? Like, where do they fit?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: windjammer on May 04, 2019, 08:42:46 AM
I looked at the polls for the canarian elections ans I guess the likeliest result right now would be some kind of Canarian-PSOE-the other center left party coalition?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 04, 2019, 09:23:31 AM
I looked at the polls for the canarian elections ans I guess the likeliest result right now would be some kind of Canarian-PSOE-the other center left party coalition?

Well, we haven't had a proper poll since May 2018 so who knows. Even if you want to count the Electopanel (which mind you is not a proper poll!) that one is still before the general election and actually predicted a tiny right wing majority: 34-36

We will at the very least get more Electopaneles, but those are not proper polls. CIS also releases one poll for regional elections, and we might also get a proper private poll by one of the 2 largest newspapers (Canarias7 or La Provincia+La Opinión de Tenerife).

Either way, the race will be incredibly tight. And it looks like any left wing majority will be dependent on ASG, the party of Casimiro Curbelo, which is not exactly 100% reliable (though I guess he will support the left if you bribe him invest enough in La Gomera)

The general election didn't clear up much as PSOE and UP did go up by a lot, but NCa collapsed and CC also went up by a lot. Finally Vox didn't really get a good result.

My predictions for government formation:

If PSOE-UP-NCa-ASG get a majority, that will be the government that gets formed

If CC-PP-Cs get a majority, that will be the government that gets formed

If the 2 blocs are tied or the right wins but depends on Vox (remember CC can't really do deals with Vox), then a PSOE-CC grand coalition gets formed, maybe dependent on ASG, NCa or Cs if they are in a minority. At that point whoever gets the most seats will be the next premier (with CC benefiting a lot from the electoral system).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on May 04, 2019, 01:12:58 PM
The result in Galicia is noticeable as well, as this region is another traditional PP stronghold. The Left got 46.6%, the Right 43.8% and leftwing nationalists 6.8%. To the contrary, the Right won in traditional PSOE strongholds like Extremadura (L 47.6%, R 50.1%).

Yeah, I was wondering about the big swing in Galicia. Any idea why the left did so well in there? In general the trend I surmise has the left do better in the Northwest and the East coast, but worse in the Southern half of the country. What do you think can explain that?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: windjammer on May 04, 2019, 01:22:57 PM
The result in Galicia is noticeable as well, as this region is another traditional PP stronghold. The Left got 46.6%, the Right 43.8% and leftwing nationalists 6.8%. To the contrary, the Right won in traditional PSOE strongholds like Extremadura (L 47.6%, R 50.1%).

Yeah, I was wondering about the big swing in Galicia. Any idea why the left did so well in there? In general the trend I surmise has the left do better in the Northwest and the East coast, but worse in the Southern half of the country. What do you think can explain that?
I guess immigration played a factor for Andalousia moving to the right. Maybe that's why Galicia has moved to the left?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 04, 2019, 01:25:36 PM
Also, I will do an analysis of the regional elections in each community. This is all personal opinion and based quite a bit on the results of the general election (albeit taking into account dual voting / split ballots). Here it goes:

Asturias: Asturias seems to have remained a region with a small, but consistent left wing advantage. As of now, it is the only region with no peripheral nationalist sentiment to actually lean left (even Andalucía is very slightly right of center now!). The incumbent government seems to be decently popular and the premier is retiring. Overall, things look good for the left, but a surprise win by the right is definitely a possibility.

Rating: Lean PSOE

Cantabria: Against all odds, the left actually won the general election here (with a similar margin to Asturias), in a community that has traditionally been very right wing! A lot of it comes from PRC getting a lot of support and even a seat in Congress. The incumbent premier, Miguel Ángel Revilla, is quite populist but also popular. Barring a major surprise, Revilla seems extremely likely to remain premier.

Rating: Likely PRC

Castille-Leon: Rural and deeply conservative, those are the best ingredients for PP. If they can't win here, they aren't winning anywhere. So unless you believe PP will implode in an spectacular fashion, they will keep this. Cs is not close enough to challenge PP. The only way I can see them somehow losing is with a PSOE-Cs deal, but I don't think that is likely even if PSOE tops the poll. Plus I think Castille-Leon's PSOE isn't exactly the most moderate in the country.

Rating: Safe PP

La Rioja: In one of the surprises of the night, the left kept La Rioja semi-competitive (within 10 points). However that's still nowhere near enough for a left wing government. A PSOE-Cs deal here seems more likely than in Castille-Leon (even if again La Rioja's PSOE isn't the most moderate), especially with the tighter margins, but is still not the most likely thing. Similarly, PP is still way ahead of Cs so no chance of Cs beating PP either.

Rating: Likely PP

Navarra: The general election gave huge support to the left. UPN/NA+ seems very likely to keep going down and PSOE will go up. It seems likely that the nationalists+Podemos will keep their majority. Bildu was close to beating GBai in 2015, and while I think the difference will be small again I don't think that will happen. Barkos will probably, but not certainly, be reelected premier

Rating: Likely GBai

Aragón: The general election gave a victory to the right here. Not an overwhelming one, but a decent enough one. The main issue here is that I most definitely don't see Lambán somehow overperforming compared to Sánchez, unlike other premiers elsewhere. That means that the already narrow left wing majority will be toast. Cs actually beat PP here surprisingly. A right wing government would be dependent on both PAR (a regionalist right wing party) and Vox, but I think Cs won't have any trouble getting the support of both. And with a chance of forming government, I doubt they would instead go with a PSOE-Cs-PAR coalition even if Lambán is one of the biggest PSOE moderates.

Rating: Lean Cs

Balearic Islands: The general election gave an extremely small victory to the left here. The bad news is that Armengol isn't exactly popular or a moderate (in fact she is the most left wing PSOE premier and the only one that supported Sánchez in the primaries). The good news for her is that the regionalist PI will never ever support a government that needs Vox and it seems unlikely that PP-Cs-Vox can get a majority by themselves (even with PI it is far from guaranteed!). Plus in the Balearics there have already been "everyone against PP" coalitions back in the day so this wouldn't be a surprise.

Rating: Likely PSOE

Madrid: In a surprising twist, the left actually did quite well here in the general election even if they still lost. Plus Gabilondo and Errejón are stronger candidates than the ones from PP. However it does seem very likely that the right will hold a majority regardless. Cs beat PP here, so Cs is certainly favoured. However, they will have the uncomfortable fact of having to deal with Vox, but I think they will go for it regardless.

Rating: Lean Cs

Castille-La Mancha: The general election gave a large right wing victory here, but that has already been a thing since the Aznar era. It's just that PSOE in this community has always been able to overperform by a lot. García-Page is also a big moderate. Cs was close-ish to PP here, but I think PP would manage to still beat them. If there's a place where PSOE-Cs will form, it's here, and I think that is the most likely outcome. However, if both Podemos and Vox manage to get screwed by the electoral system I think Cs will support PP, but that's an unlikely possibility

Rating: Tilt PSOE

Extremadura: The general election gave a small right wing victory here. Again, just like Castille-La Mancha, PSOE has been able to overperform. The sociology here is extremely similar to Andalucía in fact, to the point where neither region had had a right wing parliament ever. Though Extremadura did see a PP minority government propped up by IU of all things back in 2011. Either way, the right has a chance to break that spell and get a majority, but it's not guaranteed. There's also the fact that Fernández Vara is a moderate as well. So a PSOE-Cs coalition is likely. Cs was even closer to PP here, but again I don't think a sorpasso is happening. With this in mind, Fernández Vara is favoured, though he is still by no means a lock

Rating: Lean PSOE

Murcia: Ah Murcia. The single most right wing region in Spain, even more so than deep Castille. PSOE narrowly won the popular vote in the general election surprisingly, and PP came in second. Cs third and a strong Vox in fourth. Unlike Extremadura or Castille-La Mancha, I think a sorpasso here is more likely, but not a guarantee. A left wing government or PSOE-Cs are both out of the question. And with PP favoured to win in the right, they are favoured to remain premier overall.

Rating: Lean PP

Canary Islands: Looking at the general election, it seems the right did manage to eke out an extremely narrow win here, but of course with the f* up electoral system, any similarities between the popular vote and the parliament results are pure coincidence. CC also had a phenomenal result, so it's very unclear whether CC will keep going or the left will finally be able to take them down. I still think it's slightly more likely that PSOE will win, and the left can easily get a coalition done while CC and Vox are incompatible. So overall PSOE is favoured, but an upset can happen

Rating: Lean PSOE

Ceuta: This is the only place where of the 3 right wing parties Vox came out on top. With Podemos being nearly non-existent here, the muslim parties being very divided and Ceuta's overall lean, it seems very likely that the right will hold a majority. While Vox is favoured, PP is still within striking distance and there's always the possibility of Cs trying to force some sort of PSOE-Cs government with support from the muslim local parties. That is unlikely, but far from impossible

Rating: Tilt Vox

Melilla: Turns out CpM, the party that had everyone surprised during election night, is actually allowed to run after all. That is bad news for the right, though Melilla still has a large enough right wing tilt to make them hold a majority. PP also beat Vox here so they are favoured to hold this, but the margin will be narrow. Again if they lose this it will be in favour of Vox.

Rating: Lean PP

() (https://ibb.co/f8XVNWP)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: seb_pard on May 04, 2019, 03:45:13 PM
The results from Galicia were one of the best things of the night, and I think  there is no result.

I believe one of the reasons of this swing of Galicia is the following: the PP was really strong there but the people that voted for the party are not right wing. Galicia was one of the poorest regions decades ago and most of old people associates PP with social development. I remember that I saw one article that people told reporters that they voted for the politicians that brought electricity to the town and things like that. Thats why the PP was very strong in the country side. The thing is that the children of those people have no loyalty to the PP and also have a strong identity associated to Galicia that other parties now offer with a more attractive package.

The strength of the PP was also possible because the Galicia branch of PP was very moderate and also they defended the Galician identity, Feijoo (Galicia’s president) talks almost all the time in Galego.

When you have an election that the main theme is the role of autonomies and regional identity, you can’t expect that the right wing parties that campaign  on decreasing Autonomies’ powers do well in a region that has a strong identity  (and also, I read that Galego in the country side of Galicia is stronger than Euskera in rural Euskal Herria or Català in rural Catalunya). That is way now Feijoo is strongly advocating to return the PP to a moderate approach, because he knows that he is going to be one of the main victims of the centralist approach.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 08, 2019, 03:08:19 AM

As for other parties, PSOE gets very spread out results (with southern Tenerife, a touristy area, being their best result?).

The PSOE candidate in 2015 was Patricia Hernández. She is from Tenerife and her main base of support within the PSOE's regional branch was in the south of that island, where the party holds some local governments. The best result for the PSOE was in Adeje, a municipality that incorporates the major tourist resort of Playa de las Américas. I have some municipality results posted here:

https://saintbrendansisland.wordpress.com/2015/06/13/elecciones-al-parlamento-de-canarias-2015/

I was compiling these results myself, and I'd like to know where would we put some minor regional parties. Gbai, PRC, En Marea, BNG? Like, where do they fit?

I aggregated Compromís and NA+ to the Left and the Right, because I consider both are solid allies of their respective blocs.

Regarding the rest of regional forces, I grouped them in "peripheral nationalists" and "regionalists". The difference between both categories is not always clear. The Spanish Constitution mentions the existence of "regions" and "historical nationalities". In order to make my life easier, I group as "peripheral nationalists" all the parties operating in "historic nationalities" with a proper language: Catalonia, Basque Country and Galicia. The parties operating in the rest of regions are simply "regionalist". I'll make a short list including regional parties with seats in Congress or in regional legislatures.

Peripheral nationalists  

Catalonia: ERC (entre-left), JxCAT (centre-right) and FR (far-left)
Basque Country and Navarre: EAJ-PNV (centre or centre-right), EH Bldu (left-wing) and GBai (centre-left)
Galicia: BNG (left-wing), Anova (left-wing, did not contest) and En Marea (left-wing)

Regionalists
:

Asturias: Foro (right-wing, in coalition with PP this general election)
Aragon: PAR (centre-right, did not contest), CHA (centre-left, did not contest)
Balearic Islands: MÉS (left-wing catalanist, ran with ERC), EL PI (centre-right)
Canary Islands: CC-PNC (centre-right), NC (centre-left)
Cantabria: PRC (centre or centre-left)

CpM in Melilla and the local parties in Ceuta could be grouped as "regionalist" as well.

The result in Galicia is noticeable as well, as this region is another traditional PP stronghold. The Left got 46.6%, the Right 43.8% and leftwing nationalists 6.8%. To the contrary, the Right won in traditional PSOE strongholds like Extremadura (L 47.6%, R 50.1%).

Yeah, I was wondering about the big swing in Galicia. Any idea why the left did so well in there? In general the trend I surmise has the left do better in the Northwest and the East coast, but worse in the Southern half of the country. What do you think can explain that?

The results from Galicia were one of the best things of the night, and I think  there is no result.

I believe one of the reasons of this swing of Galicia is the following: the PP was really strong there but the people that voted for the party are not right wing. Galicia was one of the poorest regions decades ago and most of old people associates PP with social development. I remember that I saw one article that people told reporters that they voted for the politicians that brought electricity to the town and things like that. Thats why the PP was very strong in the country side. The thing is that the children of those people have no loyalty to the PP and also have a strong identity associated to Galicia that other parties now offer with a more attractive package.

The strength of the PP was also possible because the Galicia branch of PP was very moderate and also they defended the Galician identity, Feijoo (Galicia’s president) talks almost all the time in Galego.

When you have an election that the main theme is the role of autonomies and regional identity, you can’t expect that the right wing parties that campaign  on decreasing Autonomies’ powers do well in a region that has a strong identity  (and also, I read that Galego in the country side of Galicia is stronger than Euskera in rural Euskal Herria or Català in rural Catalunya). That is way now Feijoo is strongly advocating to return the PP to a moderate approach, because he knows that he is going to be one of the main victims of the centralist approach.

There exists a clear divide in Galicia in what regards electoral behaviour. The coast and the urban centres have been shifting to the left. Possibly it's a thing of younger voters with a strong sense of Galician identity. However, the PP retains a strong (albeit somewhat diminished) base of support in rural Galicia. These voters are conservative and traditionalist, but often they are Galician-speaking too. The PP has incorporated the conservative regionalism in Galicia and that's one of the main reasons of its success. In fact PP resisted much better in Galicia while the appeal of the Vox's radical centralism is weak. Similarly parties with centralist stances like Cs or Vox have little appeal to the UPN traditionalist base that defend the old Fueros

I guess the shift to the right in Southern Spain is related to a wear caused by many years of PSOE regional administrations. The impact of the Catalan crisis is arguably much more important to explain the rise of the far right than issues like immigration. Vox performed strongly in places like El Ejido (Almería) and Torre Pacheco (Murcia) that have a strong proportion of immigrants working as labourers in greenhouses and such. However, the Vox support in the urban centres is not located in working class neighbourhoods with large immigrant population. Rather, it's located in more affluent neighbourhoods that traditionally vote PP.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 08, 2019, 03:23:56 AM
Barcelona poll conducted by GESOP for El Periódico

ERC (Ernest Maragall) 22.5% 11 councilors
BComú (Ada Colau) 20% 9-10 councilors
PSC (Jaume Collboni) 16.6% 8 councilors
BCN-Cs (Manuel Valls)13.1% 6 councilors
JxCAT (Joaquim Forn) 12% 5-6 councilors
PP (Josep Bou) 4.6% 0-2 cuncilors
CUP (Anna Saliente) 4% 0 councilors
BCap* (Jordi Graupera) 3.5% 0 councilors

*Pro-independence list backed by the ANC

https://www.elperiodico.com/es/barcelona/20190506/encuesta-elecciones-municipales-barcelona-2019-7440699


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on May 08, 2019, 04:59:20 AM
I would imagine the explanation for declines in the Left and Right in certain heartland regions is that the old patronage systems are dead or in life support (due to both austerity shrinking the state and graft-busting), so there's literally no point in keeping the old patronage machines alive?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 08, 2019, 06:07:39 AM
I would imagine the explanation for declines in the Left and Right in certain heartland regions is that the old patronage systems are dead or in life support (due to both austerity shrinking the state and graft-busting), so there's literally no point in keeping the old patronage machines alive?

Possibly the decline of patronage machines in rural Galicia or Andalusia plays a role, but it's only a factor among others in play. I tend to think the influence of subsidies like PER in Andalusia has been exaggerated, as the beneficiaries (agricultural labourers) are only a small proportion of the population. The Baltar family in Ourense province dominates local politics and the patronage machine is still strong there... In any case the influence of patronage machines does not extend to the more populous and dynamic coastal and urban areas. Demographic changes in coastal Galicia or Abdalusia could explain better vote shifts in those places.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: LoneStarDem on May 08, 2019, 07:16:34 AM
Does this benefit the Conservatives ?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 08, 2019, 08:25:56 AM
Does this benefit the Conservatives ?

Do you mean the decline of patronage machines? In Southern Spain, yes; in Galicia, no.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 09, 2019, 09:11:29 AM
Massive polling dump from the CIS pollster. They were surprisingly accurate in the general election even if they were thought to have a big PSOE bias. In any case, here they go:

http://www.cis.es/cis/opencms/ES/NoticiasNovedades/InfoCIS/2019/Documentacion_3245-PreEAMPE19.html

Regional elections

Madrid

()

Murcia

()

Castille-Leon

()

Canary Islands

()

Castille-La Mancha

()

Aragon

()

Extremadura

()

Balearic Islands

()

Asturias

()

Cantabria

()

Navarra

NA+: 30.2% (16-17)
PSOE: 21.2% (11-12)
EH Bildu: 14.1% (7-8)
GBai: 14.0% (7-9)
Podemos: 10.8% (6)
IU: 4.4% (1-2)
PACMA: 1.5% (0)
Others: 2.4%

La Rioja

()

EU Elections

()

Here you can check the full results: https://www.20minutos.es/noticia/3635423/0/encuesta-cis-elecciones-autonomicas-municipales-europeas-26-mayo/

They also did local election polls for the largest cities (Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia, Seville and Zaragoza)



I personally believe CIS has gone back and is now giving massive landslides to the left. However, if true these would be devastating results for the Spanish right. Not only do they not make any gains whatsoever but actually lose several regions they've controlled since the end of the González era like Madrid, Canary Islands (CC) and La Rioja.

Castille-Leon of all places would be no better than a tossup! They would only be able to safely hold Murcia, with Castille-Leon leaning right (but being nowhere near safe) and La Rioja depending on whatever the regional PR+ does (I expect them to side with the left).

In particular these would be great results for PSOE; decent for PP and Podemos and very bad for Cs and especially Vox.

I certainly don't expect the right to lose Madrid; and I definitely expect the left to lose at the very least Aragon. I could be wrong, but this poll seems too good to be true, and it probably is


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: DL on May 09, 2019, 09:49:12 AM
When do all these regional elections take place?

Also, can anyone explain why Murcia is so rightwing? Seems like a bit of a conservative island in an area that mostly skews left and that was a republican stronghold during the civil war


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: windjammer on May 09, 2019, 10:02:51 AM
Massive polling dump from the CIS pollster. They were surprisingly accurate in the general election even if they were thought to have a big PSOE bias. In any case, here they go:

http://www.cis.es/cis/opencms/ES/NoticiasNovedades/InfoCIS/2019/Documentacion_3245-PreEAMPE19.html

Regional elections

Madrid

()

Murcia

()

Castille-Leon

()

Canary Islands

()

Castille-La Mancha

()

Aragon

()

Extremadura

()

Balearic Islands

()

Asturias

()

Cantabria

()

Navarra

NA+: 30.2% (16-17)
PSOE: 21.2% (11-12)
EH Bildu: 14.1% (7-8)
GBai: 14.0% (7-9)
Podemos: 10.8% (6)
IU: 4.4% (1-2)
PACMA: 1.5% (0)
Others: 2.4%

La Rioja

()

EU Elections

()

Here you can check the full results: https://www.20minutos.es/noticia/3635423/0/encuesta-cis-elecciones-autonomicas-municipales-europeas-26-mayo/

They also did local election polls for the largest cities (Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia, Seville and Zaragoza)



I personally believe CIS has gone back and is now giving massive landslides to the left. However, if true these would be devastating results for the Spanish right. Not only do they not make any gains whatsoever but actually lose several regions they've controlled since the end of the González era like Madrid, Canary Islands (CC) and La Rioja.

Castille-Leon of all places would be no better than a tossup! They would only be able to safely hold Murcia, with Castille-Leon leaning right (but being nowhere near safe) and La Rioja depending on whatever the regional PR+ does (I expect them to side with the left).

In particular these would be great results for PSOE; decent for PP and Podemos and very bad for Cs and especially Vox.

I certainly don't expect the right to lose Madrid; and I definitely expect the left to lose at the very least Aragon. I could be wrong, but this poll seems too good to be true, and it probably is

Could PSOE use the regional results to get an agreement with Bildu or Canaris?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 09, 2019, 10:12:58 AM
Massive polling dump from the CIS pollster. They were surprisingly accurate in the general election even if they were thought to have a big PSOE bias. In any case, here they go:

Why do you say it's a polling dump? The CIS was more spotted on than the rest of pollsters predicting the general election results. Maybe this poll looks a bit optimistic for the left and the appointment of a PSOE member at the head was not a good idea, but I think such comments are disrespectful with the professionals of the sociological institute.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 09, 2019, 10:52:25 AM
When do all these regional elections take place?

Also, can anyone explain why Murcia is so rightwing? Seems like a bit of a conservative island in an area that mostly skews left and that was a republican stronghold during the civil war

The regional/local elections take place on the 26th of May, same day as the EU elections

Massive polling dump from the CIS pollster. They were surprisingly accurate in the general election even if they were thought to have a big PSOE bias. In any case, here they go:

Could PSOE use the regional results to get an agreement with Bildu or Canaris?

No. If anything, the opposite would actually be the case. These poll results would allow PSOE to rule the Canaries with UP and NCa (without CC) and in Navarra they could either get in government themselves (supported by GBai, Podemos and IU) or support a NA+ government. The former would be much more likely in my opinion.

Massive polling dump from the CIS pollster. They were surprisingly accurate in the general election even if they were thought to have a big PSOE bias. In any case, here they go:

Why do you say it's a polling dump? The CIS was more spotted on than the rest of pollsters predicting the general election results. Maybe this poll looks a bit optimistic for the left and the appointment of a PSOE member at the head was not a good idea, but I think such comments are disrespectful with the professionals of the sociological institute.

I said it's a dump not intrying to say the polls are bad, but just saying there are a lot of them.

As for CIS, I simply view this as "too good to be true". As I've said, there's no reason whatsoever to believe Madrid will have a left wing majority or that Castille-Leon! would be even remotely close. On their defense, their EU poll does indeed look very reasonable though.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 09, 2019, 11:21:39 AM
I think the poll is very optimistic in what regards local and regional elections in Madrid. I wish the final results will be close to the CIS predictions, but rightwing parties got more votes in general elections. However, there are reasons to believe in a miracle because the May elections are of a doffrent kind, the Left has good candidates (Gabilondo, Carmena) and there's the possibility of a bandwagon effect. The CIS predicted the Left would win in Valencian regional elections and it occurred, although by a narrower margin. This precedent is not necessarily to be replicated in Madrid, but I don't think the capital of Spain and its region are lost battles for the Left.

Regarding Barcelona, the CIS predicts a narrow advantage for Ada Colau (BComú) over Ernest Maragall (ERC). The GESOP poll predicted the opposite: possibly it will be a tight and exciting contest. However, Ernest Maragall is the favourite to become the next Mayor. The ERC candidate is brother of Pasqual Maragall (PSC), a former Catalan Premier and Mayor of Barcelona. Ernest was before in the PSC and held the Education portfolio in the regional administration led by José Montilla. Later he joined ERC and held the Foreign Action portfolio in the Catalan government led by Quim Torra, replacing Raül Romeva.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 10, 2019, 08:43:19 AM
Former PSOE leader and statesman Alfredo Pérez Rubalcaba has died

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/05/10/actualidad/1557464508_194765.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: windjammer on May 11, 2019, 09:20:00 AM
Any news about bildu?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 11, 2019, 01:37:44 PM

If you are looking for government formation news, there are none, and won't be until after the regional/EU elections.

Sánchez doesn't seem all that eager to negotiate with ERC and Bildu so I guess he will just gamble on daring them (and JxCat) to vote against him.

It's easy to see Bildu/ERC caving and abstaining (which would give Sánchez a narrow majority on the 2nd ballot) but of course you then have to wonder how will he be able to pass a budget.

Another thing that has to be brought into the equation is the Basque regional elections. In theory they aren't due until Autumn 2020. However it's easy to see a snap Basque election happening this Autumn or Winter. Premier Urkullu has been unable to pass regional budgets, with Podemos, Bildu and PP voting them down in the regional parliament.

It's just a rumour at this point, but since Sánchez will depend 100% on PNV and possibly on Bildu, it's another thing to add into the equation. As if the regional elections weren't enough.

Galicia is also due for regional elections in 2020 but unlike the Basques Feijoo is certain not to call a snap election, especially because of the bad results for the right in Galicia. Feijoo will certainly overperform, but I think he will carry out a full term, especially since he has an overall majority after all, while next term he will be dependent on Cs, Vox or possibly both.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: windjammer on May 12, 2019, 05:38:47 AM

If you are looking for government formation news, there are none, and won't be until after the regional/EU elections.

Sánchez doesn't seem all that eager to negotiate with ERC and Bildu so I guess he will just gamble on daring them (and JxCat) to vote against him.

It's easy to see Bildu/ERC caving and abstaining (which would give Sánchez a narrow majority on the 2nd ballot) but of course you then have to wonder how will he be able to pass a budget.

Another thing that has to be brought into the equation is the Basque regional elections. In theory they aren't due until Autumn 2020. However it's easy to see a snap Basque election happening this Autumn or Winter. Premier Urkullu has been unable to pass regional budgets, with Podemos, Bildu and PP voting them down in the regional parliament.

It's just a rumour at this point, but since Sánchez will depend 100% on PNV and possibly on Bildu, it's another thing to add into the equation. As if the regional elections weren't enough.

Galicia is also due for regional elections in 2020 but unlike the Basques Feijoo is certain not to call a snap election, especially because of the bad results for the right in Galicia. Feijoo will certainly overperform, but I think he will carry out a full term, especially since he has an overall majority after all, while next term he will be dependent on Cs, Vox or possibly both.
Well, if the secessionnist remain in prison, the swing voters will be CC. If not, it's going to be Bildu!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: windjammer on May 16, 2019, 03:28:17 PM
So as of now, what is the likeliest coalition for a budget to pass?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 16, 2019, 06:24:11 PM
So as of now, what is the likeliest coalition for a budget to pass?

As of now, considering what happened between PSOE and ERC right this week, I think all bridges between the 2 (and Bildu and JxCat) are burnt.

This week, PSOE appointed the leader of their Catalan Branch (Miquel Iceta) as appointed Senator for Catalonia, with the intention of making him the Senate president.

In an unprecedented vote in Spain's democratic history, the Catalan parliament rejected Iceta's appointment as Senator with the votes of ERC, CUP and JxCat (the secessionist parties), with Cs and PP abstaining and Podemos and PSC voting in favor. ERC still claims dialog can continue but honestly if they can't even allow PSOE to appoint a senator, how on Earth are they going to support his budget or his confidence vote?!

There is also another factor, which is the fact that 4 of the Catalan politicians in jail are now duly elected MPs. If none of them, or only one, resign their seats, that means Spain's parliament will only have 346-347 MPs, with the majority going down to 174.

As a reminder, PSOE+UP+"reasonable" regional parties (PNV, PRC, Compromís) are at 173 while PP+Cs+Vox+Secessionists are at 169 once you take out the 4 MPs in jail.

At that point, the kingmakers would be CC and UPN. Neither of them seem happy with supporting a Sánchez government, but they both have things they can get from PSOE and are at least willing to talk I think (which is more than can be said from the Catalans). If Podemos ends up as part the government (with cabinet ministers and all) they will vote against, but they might at least abstain on a PSOE minority government.

From a tactical point of view in particular UPN might be easy to get, as it would be a fairly simple exchange (PSOE supports UPN in Navarra and in Pamplona's mayor race if their numbers add up and UPN does the same in reverse for Sánchez). However that deal involves ousting GBai from the regional government (which is PNV's branch in Navarra, sort of); and it might piss off PNV. While I can't see PNV forcing Spain into a 2nd election, they would definitely be angry

CC is harder to get as PSOE has less to offer to them and while a PSOE-CC deal in the islands wouldn't be something weird; it would still likely involve ousting premier Clavijo and getting a PSOE premier as PSOE seems likely to beat CC in both seat count and votes. However CC is easier to get on paper (they didn't contest the election with PP and Cs; unlike UPN) and would not piss off PNV.

Either way, CC and UPN are the likely kingmakers in my opinion right now; and not ERC/Bildu/JxCat. If no one caves, Spain will end up in another election (yay  ::) )


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on May 16, 2019, 10:45:40 PM
Catalan nationalists make the f**king SNP bozos look like responsible adults. JFC.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 17, 2019, 08:41:14 AM
While Spain won't have a general election in a long time most likely; today we got our first general election poll

Simple lógica poll

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While I'd love this to be the case, with PSOE skyrocketing and Vox going down in flames, I seriously doubt this will happen.

Approval ratings

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Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 18, 2019, 01:59:45 AM
Catalan nationalists make the f**king SNP bozos look like responsible adults. JFC.

They suck, yes. The major strategic goal of ERC is to become the hegemonic nationalist party, the Catalan version of the SNP. There is a fierce competition between ERC and JxCAT for leadership. ERC has been adopting a pragmatic approach on paper: broadening social base for independence and favouring negotiation over unilateralism. However, pragmatism and long-term strategies turn easily into recklessness when ERC leaders get nervous.They fear being called "traitors" by the "hyperventilating separatists", exactly the same fear that drove Puigdemont to the unilateral declaration of independence in October 2017. There won't be substantive progress until the trial of separatist leaders taking place in Madrid is over.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: mileslunn on May 18, 2019, 07:55:36 AM
So what is likelihood budget passes and if so any major revisions or just a few bones to regionalist parties?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 18, 2019, 02:32:14 PM
So what is likelihood budget passes and if so any major revisions or just a few bones to regionalist parties?

It's too early and Catalan nationalists are too unpredictable to say. Also, there is an investiture vote first. The veto to the appointment of PSC leader Miquel Iceta as senator proves that Pedro Sánchez was right deeming Catalan parties unreliable. Sánchez replied that move by proposing other two Catalans to top offices: Meritxell Batet as Speaker of the Congress and Manuel Cruz as Speaker of the Senate. Both are PSC members and won their seats on April 28. Batet is currently the minister in charge of regional affairs. There is a PSOE majority in the Senate and the election of Cruz is certain, but Meritxell Batet needs the support of other parties to get elected. Appointing two Catalans is a sign that PSOE is still pursuing dialogue within the limits of the constitution. The elegant reaction of Iceta to the arbitrary veto posed by separatist parties points to the same direction. However separatists are neither reliable nor predictable, despite ERC spokepersons claim they want dialogue and don't want a repetition of elections. The question is whether ERC is willing to abstain in order to allow the appointment of Batet and the investiture of Pedro Sánchez in a second vote (and eventually budget passes). In case of permanent lock, the only way is going to new elections. PSOE's third-un-line José Luis Abalos called Cs and PP to abstain in the investiture vote to ensure stability, as the PSOE did in late 2016 with the opposition of Pedro Sánchez (he was ousted for this reason). PP and Cs won't abstain, obviously.

Another factor: there are local, regional and EP elections around the corner, within 8 days. Major races in Madrid and Barcelona .


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 20, 2019, 07:36:58 AM
Meritxell Batet and Manuel Cruz candidates for Congress and Senate speaker after the veto of Catalan separatists to Miquel Iceta

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/05/17/inenglish/1558077622_586730.html

Quote
   

Following the Catalan parliament’s refusal to appoint Miquel Iceta, the leader of the Catalan Socialists (PSC), as a senator on Thursday, the acting government of Pedro Sánchez has come up with a new candidate to replace him.

Sánchez is now nominating another native of Catalonia, Manuel Cruz, who is also a member of the PSC. The idea is to get him into the Senate, then make him speaker of the upper house. The new vote at the Catalan parliament to confirm his senatorial position will take place on May 21.

The picks are meant to symbolize a renewed desire for dialogue to overcome the territorial crisis

Manuel Cruz, 58, is a philosophy professor at Barcelona University who has lectured at European and US institutions. He has written around 30 books and is a regular contributor to several news organizations, including EL PAÍS. As a politician, he has served as a PSC deputy and a PSOE spokesman in the congressional committee for science, innovation and universities. He is viewed as a moderate who supports dialogue.

For speaker of Congress, Sánchez is proposing Meritxell Batet, who is also Catalan. The choices are meant to symbolize the acting PM’s desire for renewed dialogue to overcome the territorial crisis in the northeastern region.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 20, 2019, 08:15:07 AM
Local elections: 40db polls for El País

Madrid: Manuela Carmena is a weak favourite

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Barcelona: complex results with a narrow lead of ERC (Ernest Maragall) over BComú (Ada Colau),  PSC (Jaume Collboni) on the rise and Manuel Valls coming fourth slightly ahead of JxCAT

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Valencia: Joan Ribó (Compromís) is the favourite

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Sevilla: PSOE holds

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Zaragoza: Pilar Alegría (PSOE) could be the next mayor replacing Pedro Santiesteve (Zaragoza en Común), who parted ways with Podemos

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Bilbao: PNV on the edge of winning a majority

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A Coruña: Similarly to Zaragoza, the PSOE could replace the alternative left (Marea Atlántica)

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Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 20, 2019, 08:21:44 AM
The Left could win regional elections in Madrid, according to the 40dB poll for El País. Íñigo Errejón (Más Madrid) could be the big surprise

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Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 20, 2019, 09:43:47 AM
Actually, there have been a ton of polls reciently. I won't go over each and every one of them, but here is my summary by community of all polls published since the general election:

Aragon:
2/3 polls give a majority to the left; the remaining one (older) gives the majority to the right. All polls give a majority to PSOE-Cs-PAR, which could also happen as Lambán is one of the more conservative premiers in PSOE. Seems like Lambán was not Dead on Arrival after all, and is now a modest favourite to hold on for another 4 years

My rating: Lean PSOE

Asturias:
All polls give a majority to the left; a right wing majority would require a big polling miss and I don't think that's happening. Adrián Barbón (PSOE) will replace the incumbent PSOE premier Javier Fernández. No surprise in what's arguably Spain's most left wing community without a regional language.

My rating: Safe PSOE

Balearic Islands:
All polls give a majority to the left, though in some it's within the margin of error. However, even if the left loses its majority, PI is definitely not supporting a right wing government and especially not one propped up by Vox as well. Because of that reason, Francina Armengol (arguably Spain's most left wing premier), is a big favourite for reelection

My rating: Safe PSOE

Canary Islands
All polls give a majority to the left, though some within the margin of error. Again, if Vox makes it in (which is not a certainty by any means), a right wing government becomes a lot less likely as CC has ruled them out. While I would not rule out a PSOE-CC grand coalition, PSOE will very likely get the Canarian premiership 26 years later. However, ASG is rogue enough to screw things up but I think they'll go left this time.

My rating: Likely PSOE

Cantabria
All polls give a majority to the left and a rather broad one. Revilla is populist enough that he can take a lot of right wing voters in a right of center region. He will easily remain as premier; even if the right somehow got a majority I still wouldn't rule out PRC-Cs-PSOE (although that would be unlikely).

My rating: Safe PRC

Castille-Leon
All polls give a majority to the right, and within it a large lead for PP. If PP somehow manages to lose this, they are dead as a national party, full stop. The "culturally Castillian" community, very rural and with a very old population, those are all PP-leaning demographics. The CIS poll predicted a tie, but I don't trust that, though it will be much closer than it has been in ages.

My rating: Safe PP

Castille-La Mancha
All polls predict pretty much a tossup here in terms of left vs right. However, premier Emiliano García-Page is one of the more conservative premiers in Spain, and he is one of the few that could easily get a PSOE-Cs deal. That means that PSOE pretty much has the advantage.

My rating: Lean PSOE

Extremadura
All polls predict pretty much a tossup with an extremely narrow left advantage. Again however, Guillermo Fernández Vara is a conservative PSOE premier so he could also get away with PSOE-Cs. And that means he is favoured for another term

My rating: Lean PSOE

La Rioja
A sociologically similar community to Castille-Leon, but watered down; there should be no reason for PP to lose this. And yet polls are predicting a left wing advantage! While Madrid has seen all the attention for being the huge prize, in my opinion tiny La Rioja will be marquee race of the night and the one I would watch most closely. It's worth noting that this estimate assumes the regional PR+ supports PSOE and not PP. Which is the likeliest scenario, but it's not 100% inconcievable that PR+ supports PP or doesn't make it in.

My Rating: Tossup / Tilt PSOE

Madrid
The race everyone is watching most closely and has seen the most polling; both because of demographics (it is by far the largest community up for grabs) and because of polling which predicts Madrid is a tossup, with PSOE, PP and Cs all having a chance of getting the premiership. However that same polling predicts a tiny advantage for the right. That same polling has also found Cs trailing PP by a small but consistent amount. I will go with a bold prediction here, but I wouldn't be surprised if I got it wrong:

My rating: Lean PP

Murcia
All polls predict an easy right wing victory in Spain's most conservative region. Vox will also get its best results here. There is a possibility of PSOE-Cs, but Murcia's PSOE isn't exactly the most conservative so I don't think that will happen. Fernando López Miras (PP) will easily be reelected.

My rating: Safe PP

Navarra
Another region where polls are predicting a tossup, though the current 4 party government (GBai-Bildu-Podemos-IU) is a clear underdog and seems more likely than not that they will lose their majority. At that point, many possibilities open up, like NA+-PSOE (particularly if that means Sánchez gets 2 extra votes for him nationally) or GBai-PSOE-Podemos-IU (with PSOE or GBai leading). I think GBai is the

My rating: Pure tossup between PSOE, NA+ and Gbai


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 20, 2019, 10:51:35 AM
I don't think that UPN propping up Pedro Sánchez alongside Podemos and PNV is a serious possibility. Navarrese traditionalists have always sided with the Spanish Right at national level, regardless occasional cooperation between PSOE and UPN at regional level.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 20, 2019, 12:53:13 PM
I don't think that UPN propping up Pedro Sánchez alongside Podemos and PNV is a serious possibility. Navarrese traditionalists have always sided with the Spanish Right at national level, regardless occasional cooperation between PSOE and UPN at regional level.

I don't think it's that unrealistic. I believe back on the Zapatero days, UPN propped up Zapatero's government by supporting his budgets, and that's the reason for their split.

An abstention in exchange for money for Navarra and giving NA+ the regional government would probably be a fair deal, especially if a PSOE-led government in Navarra is not a possibility or would require Bildu support.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 20, 2019, 03:49:30 PM
I don't think that UPN propping up Pedro Sánchez alongside Podemos and PNV is a serious possibility. Navarrese traditionalists have always sided with the Spanish Right at national level, regardless occasional cooperation between PSOE and UPN at regional level.

I don't think it's that unrealistic. I believe back on the Zapatero days, UPN propped up Zapatero's government by supporting his budgets, and that's the reason for their split.

An abstention in exchange for money for Navarra and giving NA+ the regional government would probably be a fair deal, especially if a PSOE-led government in Navarra is not a possibility or would require Bildu support.

Oh yes, I forgot that precedent and it's not a bad point. There is a problem with that theory.  As you say, that move led to a split within the Navarrese Right: the regional branch of the PP was refounded after some years merged with the UPN. Leaving aside political contexts are very different, a similar move today would lead to the split of NA+ with PP and Cs breaking away on the UPN's treason. So in neither case there would be a deal between PSOE and NA+, rather one between PSOE and UPN. Another point is that we are no longer in a two-party system, but in a multi-party system with complex coalition building. I think UPN is not compatible with the PSOE's preferential partners: Podemos, PNV and Compromis. However, the complexity of the political context and the high degree of uncertainty prevent me to rule out any possibility. I'll just say it seems very unlikely to me that PSOE manages to deal with Podemos on the one hand and CC or UPN on the other hand. They are like oil and water. Uncompatible.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: mileslunn on May 21, 2019, 09:58:31 AM
What are chances of another election?  Or is it likely PSOE will likely form a coalition.  Also in terms of budget priorities as budget was by recent European standards fairly left leaning how likely is it that things like 22% rise in minimum wage, tax on banks, higher income taxes on those making over 150,000 Euros likely to go through?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: samm5 on May 21, 2019, 10:23:59 AM
So, how's the public perception about a snap election? seems that in other parliamentary countries, they try to avoid it at all costs (like Sweden a couple of years ago), i understand that this fragmented scenario in spain is new for the political class but making elections every two years doesn't seem to be a good idea...

also, which are the odds for Carmena's reelection in Madrid? 50/50? i thought she was likely to win and popular in general


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 21, 2019, 06:43:41 PM
Inaugural session of the Spanish Congress took lace today

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/05/21/inenglish/1558449646_847012.html

Quote
The inaugural session of Spanish Congress on Tuesday gave a good indication of what to expect during the new political term inside a house that is more fragmented than ever following the snap election of April 28.

At a tense gathering that lasted slightly under five hours, five Catalan lawmakers who were allowed out of preventive prison to take oath used atypical formulas to swear allegiance to the Constitution they are on trial for allegedly breaking.

Their words were nearly drowned out by shouts from other newly elected deputies, particularly those from the far-right Vox party, which has entered parliament for the first time on a promise to defend Spanish unity. Other opposition leaders said the separatists’ claims about political persecution were an insult to Spanish democracy, and accused the new speaker of the house, Meritxell Batet, of excessive leniency.

Meritxell Batet was elected new speaker of the lower house. Batet is a PSC deputy for Barcelona and a Catalan federalist who was the acting minister Public Administrations, in charge of relations with regional governments. She was elected in a second vote with the support of half of the chamber. The 175 votes in favour came from PSOE, UP, PNV, CC, Compromís and PRC.
Rightwing opposition (PP, Cs and Vox), Catalan separatists and EH Bildu did not support Batet.

This vote shows an initial correlation of forces where the government and its allied parties are one seat short of a majority. The long-term support of CC is questionable: it would depend on the results of regional elections on Sunday and the subsequent coalition talks. This leaves the PSOE and allies with 173 seats, 3 seats short. In this context the attitude of ERC (plus the 0strategic ally' EH Bildu) is key. They have sent signals that could be interpreted as a will to cooperate... or not. Given the political conflict and the procedural situation of ERC leader Oriol Junqueras, trying to predict their future behaviour is risky.

Oriol Junqueras to Pedro Sánchez: "we need to talk"

Quote
One of the most unusual scenes of the day was the handshake and brief exchange of words between acting Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez and Oriol Junqueras, the leader of the Catalan Republican Left (ERC), who is on trial for rebellion over the failed secession attempt of 2017. Junqueras and four other separatist leaders were allowed out of jail to attend the inaugural session of parliament, although they will likely be suspended until the Supreme Court reaches a verdict.


Oriol Junqueras greeted other ministers (including Borrell), the new speaker Meritxell Batet and embraced Pablo Iglesias. Inés Arrimadas greeted the trialed JxCAT deputies Josep Rull (kiss on the cheek) and Jordi Turull (handshake), while Cs leader Albert Rivera just looked at them defiant. Vox deputies woke up early in the morning in order to seat in the row behind Pedro Sánchez and the cabinet members, in an attempt of trolling partially countered by PSC deputy José Zaragoza who sat between party leader Santiago Abascal and Iván Espinosa de los Monteros. Zaragoza later explained Abascal and the other Vox deputies practical details on the functioning of Congress (how to vote and things like that), but couldn't prevent they hit their benches when the separatist deputies took their oaths.

Another star of the inaugural session was the eldest member of the Congress

Quote
he new session of Congress got underway today under the guidance of three deputies-elect: Agustín Javier Zamarrón of the Socialist Party (PSOE), Marta Rosique of the Catalan Republican Left (ERC) and Lucía Muñoz of left-wing Unidas Podemos. The trio made up the so-called “Mesa de Edad,” literally the “Age Committee,” which is composed of the oldest deputy-elect, who acts as president, and the two youngest, who are there as secretaries.

The Mesa de Edad is charged with declaring the session of Congress open, before reading a Royal Decree and the list of deputies who will be taking a seat in the lower house of parliament.

Of the three, Zamarrón caused something of a stir on social media on Tuesday. He had run with the PSOE in Burgos at the last three general elections, but missed out on a seat in 2015 and 2016. Against all forecasts, he was lucky third time around, becoming, at 73, the oldest deputy of Congress.

A retired doctor, his expressions during the opening of Congress today were peppered with medical terms. “We are prone to a thrombosis in the pit,” he said into the microphones today, as the deputies filing through the chamber found that their path was blocked by groups of other parliamentarians. “Honorable deputies, please improve the flow,” was another of his comments.

With his long white beard and glasses, Zamarrón’s likeness to Spanish writer Ramón María del Valle-Inclán did not go unnoticed by users of social media. In fact, the surname “Valle-Inclán” was actually a trending topic on Twitter earlier in the day.
 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 21, 2019, 07:26:20 PM
What are chances of another election?  Or is it likely PSOE will likely form a coalition.  Also in terms of budget priorities as budget was by recent European standards fairly left leaning how likely is it that things like 22% rise in minimum wage, tax on banks, higher income taxes on those making over 150,000 Euros likely to go through?

I think nobody wants a new election, but the formation of majorities is extremely complex due to the situation in Catalonia. Today it was the inaugural session in Congress 8See previous post) and there are key local, regional and EP elections on Sunday. The talks between PSOE and UP to reach an agreement (either coalition or confidence and supply) will begin seriously on the following day. Regarding the budget draft, the European Commission didn't raise major objections, aside they considered the income forecast too optimistic (particularly referring to new corporate taxes). Possibly it helped that Minister of Economy Nadia Calviño is very well considered by the Eurocrats, as she was the Director-General for Budget of the EC between 2014 and 2018. Also, the committed Europeism of Pedro Sánchez in times of EU crisis and other factors could strengthen the position of Spain. The main problem with the budget is internal and related to the dependence on the votes of Catalan separatist parties that forced Sánchez to call the last time. The results make the position of Sánchez much better now, but sadly he was 1 to 3 seats short to get a majority without ERC. I don't think Sánchez will be forced to call a snap election with the current parliament, but political instability will last until the trial to Catalan separatist leaders is over and a new election takes place in Catalonia.

So, how's the public perception about a snap election? seems that in other parliamentary countries, they try to avoid it at all costs (like Sweden a couple of years ago), i understand that this fragmented scenario in Spain is new for the political class but making elections every two years doesn't seem to be a good idea...

also, which are the odds for Carmena's reelection in Madrid? 50/50? i thought she was likely to win and popular in general

For the first part, read above. Most of polls say there's a tiny advantage for Manuela Carmena, but it's within the margin of error. The same rules for regional elections in Madrid. Manuela Carmena is an independent left-wing mayor that has made a good management of public funds and implemented measures to make Madrid more human. I think she is popular and appreciated, as well as she is esteemed by middle-class voters not so prone to support radical leftists. Her popularity is the consequence of personal traits and good performance and may help her to win reelection, despite the rightwing parties won on the general election by a 10% margin. It will be a tight contest and I'll be crossing fingers for her and Íñigo Errejón.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 22, 2019, 12:31:19 PM
The new parliament emerged from the recent general election reflects the highest gender parity in the EU. Currently there are 164 women in the Congress of Deputies, representing 46.9% of the 350 members. The following countries in the gender parity ranking are Sweden (46.4%), Finland (41.5%), Norway (40.8%) and France (39.8%)

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/05/22/inenglish/1558517200_573782.html

Quote
When Spanish deputy Clara Campoamor demanded women’s right to vote in a famous speech made on October 1, 1931, she was just one of three female members of Congress.

Eighty-eight years after women’s suffrage was enacted in Spain, the new Congress that convened on Tuesday has the highest number of female deputies in the country’s history: 166, representing 47.4% of seats. This makes Spanish parliament the EU leader in gender parity, and the fifth in the world according to figures from UN Women.

Spain’s leap to the global forefront of female leadership is also reflected in the fact that a woman, Meritxell Batet, is the new speaker of the lower house, and that she is taking over from another woman, Ana Pastor.

This new reality was reflected in the opening remarks by Batet, who spoke of the need to advance toward “a more feminist Spain” and who addressed the “señoras y señores diputados,” putting the women first instead of using the more traditional formula of “señores y señoras.”


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 25, 2019, 05:04:30 AM
Manuela Carmena: "The Frugal Leftist Who Shook Up Madrid"

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/24/world/europe/madrid-spain-mayor-carmena.html?ref=nyt-es&mcid=nyt-es&subid=article

Quote
Her conservative rivals demonized her as a heavy spender, a former Communist certain to bust the budget in no time. Yet four years later, Mayor Manuela Carmena of Madrid is the favorite as she faces voters for a second time on Sunday, having cut the city’s multibillion-euro debt by nearly half (...)

Bill de Blasio endorsed Barcelona mayor Ada Colau


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 25, 2019, 01:26:26 PM
Just as a reminder, tomorrow key local and regional elections take place in Spain alongside EP elections. Polls suggest the fragmentation seen at the national vote will extend to regions and municipalities. Will April and May votes trigger a new era of coalitions at all levels?

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/05/24/inenglish/1558708576_117836.html

Quote
The country is still fresh out of a snap general election that gave the highest number of seats to the Socialist Party (PSOE), but yielded a fragmented Congress with no overall majorities. Political leaders are waiting for the outcome of the Sunday vote to start crafting governing pacts, and polls suggest that a similar fragmentation could emerge at the local and regional levels, forcing parties into coalitions or pledges of case-by-case support (...)



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: bigic on May 25, 2019, 01:52:24 PM
Are there coalitions in Spain on the local level which can't be imagined on the national or regional level, like PSOE-PP or Podemos-Cs? I think they probably do exist because of local politics being less ideological and having different issues than politics on the "higher" levels, and such local coalitions do exist in other countries...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 25, 2019, 02:50:56 PM
Are there coalitions in Spain on the local level which can't be imagined on the national or regional level, like PSOE-PP or Podemos-Cs? I think they probably do exist because of local politics being less ideological and having different issues than politics on the "higher" levels, and such local coalitions do exist in other countries...

Yes, of course. There are all kinds of "atypical" coalitions at local level. I don't know about Podemos-Cs coalitions (that doesn't imply they don't exist), but there are several examples of coalitions and deals vetween PP and PSOE. The most relevant and recent example that comes to my mind is Badalona, the third largest municipality of Catalonia by population. PP came first in the 2015 elections with the vontroversial former mayor Xavier García Albiol, but a coalition between leftist parties gave the mayoralty to the sovereigntist Dolors Sabater. However the local socialists felt mistreated by the new local government and ceased to support Sabater. Xavier García Albiol offered the PP votes to oust the pro-independence mayor and she was replaced by a PSC guy. This example is ideological and related to the conflict on independence, but the PSC has reached deals with nearly everybody in Catalonia from PP and Cs to ERC, the former CiU and of course ICV and the lists backed by Podemos.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 26, 2019, 09:27:14 AM
Turnout at 14:00 was 35.2%; almost exactly the same as in 2015 (34.8%), though much lower than the general election turnout (and higher than the EU election turnout in 2014 of course)

El Diario has a map with the turnout increase/decrease since 2015

https://www.eldiario.es/politica/MAPA-datos-participacion-municipales-municipio_0_903260057.html

So overall we can't really read much into the turnout reports, if at all


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 26, 2019, 11:14:34 AM
I went to vote minutes ago. As a resident in the Canary Islands, I had to cast five ballots

European Parliament
Canarian Parliament: regional constituency
Canarian Parliament: insular constituency
Local Elections: Cabildos
Local Elections: councilors

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: seb_pard on May 26, 2019, 11:45:51 AM
Probably the right is going to win Madrid (city). Lower turnout in southern Madrid and higher in the wealthier parts.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY on May 26, 2019, 11:55:35 AM
Probably the right is going to win Madrid (city). Lower turnout in southern Madrid and higher in the wealthier parts.



:c


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 26, 2019, 12:20:42 PM
Probably the right is going to win Madrid (city). Lower turnout in southern Madrid and higher in the wealthier parts.

Turnout reports don't look very promising, indeed. Yesterday Pablo Iglesias endorsed clearly the rival list led by Carlos Sánchez Mato (Madrid en Pie: IU+Anticapitalistas) which has little chances to reach the 5% threshold but may hurt the list of Manuela Carmena.  Regarding regional elections, I don't want to imagine the Madrid government led by the astonishingly brilliant Isabel Diaz Ayuso. If the left doesn't win in Madrid this time with such rightwing candidates, then it never will. I'll try to remain optimistic until the count comes, fingers crossed...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: windjammer on May 26, 2019, 02:01:09 PM
Any results?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: seb_pard on May 26, 2019, 02:10:57 PM
Exit polls:

Community of Madrid
()


City of Madrid
()

Barcelona tie between Colau (Barcelona en Comú) and Maragall (ERC)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: seb_pard on May 26, 2019, 02:13:11 PM
I really hope Colau ends un winning.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on May 26, 2019, 02:17:25 PM
Exit polls:

Community of Madrid
()


City of Madrid
()

Barcelona tie between Colau (Barcelona en Comú) and Maragall (ERC)

Huge win for the left if this is accurate.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 26, 2019, 02:20:24 PM
Barcelona exit poll

ERC 22.5% 10-11 councilors
BCOMU 22% 10-11
PSC 16% 7-8
JXCAT 12.4% 5-6
Manuel Valls- Cs 11.9% 5-6
BCap (ANC, pro-independence) 4.5% 0-2


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: seb_pard on May 26, 2019, 02:22:35 PM
Barcelona exit poll

ERC 22.5% 10-11 councilors
BCOMU 22% 10-11
PSC 16% 7-8
JXCAT 12.4% 5-6
Manuel Valls- Cs 11.9% 5-6
BCap (ANC, pro-independence) 4.5% 0-2

Wow, anything about PP and la CUP?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 26, 2019, 02:30:23 PM
Barcelona exit poll

ERC 22.5% 10-11 councilors
BCOMU 22% 10-11
PSC 16% 7-8
JXCAT 12.4% 5-6
Manuel Valls- Cs 11.9% 5-6
BCap (ANC, pro-independence) 4.5% 0-2

Wow, anything about PP and la CUP?

Apparently the CUP is on the same percentage as BCap and PP dissapears. Take exit polls with loads of salt. There is concern in the Podemos HQs anyway. Ada Colau is the only "mayor of change" with a decent (but cool) relationship with Pablo Iglesias. Losing Barcelona by such a narrow margin would be a serious setback.  I think the Madrid exit polls are too optimistic, given turnout decrease in the south. UP behind Más Madrid is not good for Iglesias. ..


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: seb_pard on May 26, 2019, 02:44:56 PM
Barcelona exit poll

ERC 22.5% 10-11 councilors
BCOMU 22% 10-11
PSC 16% 7-8
JXCAT 12.4% 5-6
Manuel Valls- Cs 11.9% 5-6
BCap (ANC, pro-independence) 4.5% 0-2

Wow, anything about PP and la CUP?

Apparently the CUP is on the same percentage as BCap and PP dissapears. Take exit polls with loads of salt. There is concern in the Podemos HQs anyway. Ada Colau is the only "mayor of change" with a decent (but cool) relationship with Pablo Iglesias. Losing Barcelona by such a narrow margin would be a serious setback.  I think the Madrid exit polls are too optimistic, given turnout decrease in the south. UP behind Más Madrid is not good for Iglesias. ..
Yeah I'm listening Cadena SER and you hear consistently that turnout in strong left areas across the country (Vallecas, Valencia, Cadiz, Valencia, etc.) felt today, and this doesn't correlate with the exit polls.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: kaoras on May 26, 2019, 03:35:35 PM
Early results seem to indicate a Nationwide PSOE wave


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Skye on May 26, 2019, 05:07:10 PM
It seems Carmena has lost.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY on May 26, 2019, 05:07:36 PM
Early results seem to indicate a Nationwide PSOE wave

Winning the Community of Madrid, but Carmena is trailing in the city with 88% in. Shame.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 26, 2019, 05:23:58 PM
The region of Madrid is too close to call. In 2016 the PP won the last seat at midnight and retained the region by a narrow margin. Then the IU votes were wasted because that list didn't reach the 5% threshold.  The city of Madrid will go to the right and Carmena lost (undeservrdly imo) despite her list came first. The list backed by Pablo Iglesias in the last minute gets less than 3% and no councilors: wasted votes again. Más Madrid gets around 15% and UP is barely above the 5% threshold in regional elections. Angel Gabilondo could be a great Madrid premier, but Isabel Diaz Ayuso has chances.

In Barcelona ERC beats BCOMU by a 0.7% margin !

Excellent results for the PSOE anyway


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on May 26, 2019, 05:39:42 PM
imagine telling someone a year ago that the PSOE will control La Rioja but not Andalusia


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 26, 2019, 06:05:10 PM
Ok, with all the data we have in here are the communities where I would argue we need to watch future alliances.

Castille-Leon: PP-Cs have a majority (without Vox) but PSOE topped the poll. It's not inconcievable that Cs goes with PSOE, but it's very unlikely. Still it's a possibility worth watching

Aragon: The combined right (PP-Cs-Vox-PAR) has a narrow majority but PAR is a right-regionalist party which might not be happy doing deals with Vox. If there's a community where a PSOE-Cs deal will happen, it's here.

Canary Islands: In pure Thanos fashion, the islands gave a tied result between the right and left (again, as 2015 already saw a perfect tie). However this time PSOE beats CC both in terms of seats and the popular vote. Common wisdom would assume a PSOE-CC deal with a PSOE but relations between the 2 are quite damaged. Another scenario is the left-insularist ASG propping up a CC-PP-Cs government. Truly bad result in my home region :(

Worth noting only 73% of the vote is in here, so this could change

The region of Madrid is too close to call. In 2016 the PP won the last seat at midnight and retained the region by a narrow margin. Then the IU votes were wasted because that list didn't reach the 5% threshold.  The city of Madrid will go to the right and Carmena lost (undeservrdly imo) despite her list came first. The list backed by Pablo Iglesias in the last minute gets less than 3% and no councilors: wasted votes again. Más Madrid gets around 15% and UP is barely above the 5% threshold in regional elections. Angel Gabilondo could be a great Madrid premier, but Isabel Diaz Ayuso has chances.

In Barcelona ERC beats BCOMU by a 0.7% margin !

Excellent results for the PSOE anyway

Eh, I'd call it already for the right.

Madrid seems to have a left counting bias for some reason (with left wing areas counting earlier), and PP-Cs-Vox already have a majority. It's pretty much over.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: kaoras on May 26, 2019, 06:17:54 PM
Also, LOL at Vox at the european elections, they almost managed to lost half of its share in one month.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 26, 2019, 06:24:21 PM
Well, after the Andalusian elections and especially after the general elections I had been predicting some sort of "realignment" where PSOE would collapse in the South (though might have held through deals with Cs) while winning landslides in peripheral Spain and getting nice results in Madrid and the north.

Apparently that hasn't happened and they have overall majorities in Castille-La Mancha and Extremadura lol

Not only that, but these are the first PSOE overall majorities anywhere since 2007!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 27, 2019, 11:42:32 AM
Cs is trying to buy time. The orange party will create a committee to consider the possibility of deals with the PSOE in regions like Castilla y León, Aragon or Murcia. However, the deals with PP and Vox in Madrid are still on the table. In case Vox demands seats in regional and local governments, Cs will be in trouble. Cs candidate Begoña Villacis suggested that, in order to prevent Vox influence, PSOE should back her as mayor of Madrid instead of Manuela Carmena. The acting mayor conceded defeat on election night (despite she came first), ruled out deals with Cs and announced she quits politics.

Manuel Valls threatens to break relations with Cs in case the Albert Rivera party deals with Vox in Madrid. His platform Barcelona pel Canvi ("Barcelona for Change") won 6 seats in the Barcelona City Hall: Valls and other two councilors are independents (one of them is Celestino Corbacho, a former Labour minister with Zapatero). There is a possibility to orevent thst ERC candidate Ernrst Maragall becomes the next Barcelona mayor. ERC and Ada Colau's party BCOMU are tied at 10 councilors. A deal with ERC and JxCAT could represent the political death of Colau, but the acting mayor could try a deal with the PSC. BCOMU and PSC add 18 councilors and majority is set at 21. In case Manuel Valls and the other two independent councilors allow a coalition between BCOMU and PSC without taking part in government, there is a possibility to prevent that Barcelona has a separatist mayor. It won't be easy as there is an ideological abyss between 'neoliberal' Valls and 'populist' Colau.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 28, 2019, 03:50:17 PM
Nice precinct map of the local elections in Barcelona,  a very tight contest in a city of fascinating electoral geography. Clickable, of course

https://m.eldiario.es/catalunya/MAPA-Consulta-municipales-Barcelona-calle_0_903959951.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on May 29, 2019, 01:32:06 PM
Nice precinct map of the local elections in Barcelona,  a very tight contest in a city of fascinating electoral geography. Clickable, of course

https://m.eldiario.es/catalunya/MAPA-Consulta-municipales-Barcelona-calle_0_903959951.html


Huh, interesting that the few Cs precincts (lolvalls, btw) are enclaved into ERC's general area of strength. Since those are the two parties most far apart from each other, I'd have assumed their voters lived further apart.

More generally, can you explain the sociological patterns for those who aren't familiar to Barcelona's geography?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: windjammer on May 30, 2019, 07:52:38 AM
Any news about the elections?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 30, 2019, 08:03:34 AM
Nice precinct map of the local elections in Barcelona,  a very tight contest in a city of fascinating electoral geography. Clickable, of course

https://m.eldiario.es/catalunya/MAPA-Consulta-municipales-Barcelona-calle_0_903959951.html


Huh, interesting that the few Cs precincts (lolvalls, btw) are enclaved into ERC's general area of strength. Since those are the two parties most far apart from each other, I'd have assumed their voters lived further apart.

More generally, can you explain the sociological patterns for those who aren't familiar to Barcelona's geography?

The precincts where the Valls list came first are located in the wealthiest part of Barcelona, corresponding to the municipal district of Sarrià-Sant Gervasi and part of Les Corts. These affluent neighbourhoods vote consistently to right-wing parties, traditionally CiU and PP. If you look closely, you'll notice there are a few deep blue precincts surrounded by the orange: they were won by the JxCAT list (the heirs of CiU, the Catalan nationalist right). Cs has replaced largely the declining PP and ERC is making inroads into the traditional CiU base. The ERC strong places correspond mostly to middle class neighbourhoods, namely the Eixample district (XIX Century enlargement), Gràcia (former independent municipality incorpoated to Barcelona, traditionally left-wing and very nationalist, gentrified) , Les Corts, Guinardò and so on. BComú is stronger in the old quarterof Barcelona (Ciutat Vella), as well in old working-class and popular neighbourhoods like Poblenou or Sant Martí. The best places for the PSC are peripheral working-class neighbourhoods which were built to house immigrants from other arts of Spain and are the most deprived areas of the city. I have an income map by neoghbourhood that might be helpful to illustrate socio-economic patterns:

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: windjammer on May 30, 2019, 08:06:41 AM
Now with the regional results, what is going to happen?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 30, 2019, 09:09:19 AM
Now with the regional results, what is going to happen?

Yesterday Manuel Valls made an interesting move in Barcelona, offering his votes in the City Hall to back BComú and PSC with Ada Colau as mayor. This support is unconditional: the only purpose is to prevent that separatist Ernest Maragall (ERC) becomes mayor. ERC won narrowly the local elections in Barcelona and is tied with BComú at 10 councilors, while PSC won 8, Valls 6 (3 Cs, 3 independent), JxCAT 5 and PP 2. Cs national leadership reacted with visible displeasure to the Valls offer; party spokepersons stated they don't support 'populists' like Ada Colau. The Valls move has left Cs leadership misplaced, because it's not easy to justify the opposition to a move aimed to prevent a separatist local government in Barcelona. Cs leadership is saying now that PSC candidate Jaume Collboni would be more acceptable, despite Albert Rivera deems the Catalan Socialists as a "nationalist" force. Cs and Albert Rivera are engaged in a turn to the right that in all likelihood will end with a deal with PP and Vox in Madrid. Valls said on the very election night that deals between Cs and Vox will entail his emancipation. On the other hand, Ada Colau didn't reject explicitly the Valls offer. However BComú spokepersons say their priority is a left-wing agreement with ERC and PSC and reject talks with Valls and JxCAT. The problem is that ERC and PSC are in opposite sides on the national question and veto each other. ERC candidate Maragall favours an agreement with BComú and JxCAT.

In another interesting move, Íñigo Errejón (Más Madrid) stated that he's open to talk with PSOE and Cs in order to prevent that PP and Vox govern the city and the region of Madrid. It's a declaration of intent, not a detailed proposal. He's saying that a PSOE-Cs deal is far from being an ideal scenario, but it's preferable to a government of the corrupt PP with the support of the far right. In short: both Valls and Errejón and advocating the lesser evil and are breaking the dynamic of the opposite blocs, forcing the other parties to make a choice and show their contradictions. On the other hand, Vox is demanding posts in local and regional governments. The far right party won't accept a subsidiary role, supporting a PP-Cs governments from the outside as it happened in Andalusia. Vox decreased in local and regional elections, but wants to assert its decisive seats. This demand displeases Cs especially; oranges will try to press on the far right to accept a deal similar to Andalusia. But Vox is threatening to let the left govern. There is a small chance to Manuela Carmena in case rightwing parties don't reach a deal, because Spanish legislation says the list coming first gets the mayoralty in case there's no alternative majority. Similarly ERC candidate Ernest Maragall will be the next mayor of Barcelona in case BComú and PSC don't conform an alternative majority with the 3 independent councilors of the Valls list. I think the right will end governing Madrid and the materialization of alternative majorities in Barcelona is very difficult. Anyway things are becoming interesting.

Pedro Sánchez and Macron had a meeting in Paris that might not be unrelated with the valls move in Barcelona, according to some analysts. Timmermans attended a PSC-PSOE campaign act in Barcelona. The S&D candidate is aware of the political situation in Catalonia.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: parochial boy on May 30, 2019, 09:27:45 AM
Cs national leadership reacted with visible displeasure to the Valls offer; party spokepersons stated they don't support 'populists' like Ada Colau.

That's... ironic... :)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 30, 2019, 10:19:31 AM
Now with the regional results, what is going to happen?

Well, I've long defended that if we are to assume that a left wing PSOE-UP government of some sort is going to happen, the kingmakers are UPN/NA+, CC and/or the secessionists. Navarra and the Canary Islands held regional elections so let's look at them

In Navarra, PSOE has a tough choice to make. Either they can abstain and allow a UPN minority government, or they can rule themselves with the abstention of Bildu and support from everyone else. Both options might be good though, though the latter seems better as it might convince Bildu to abstain nationally as well, which would be easier I guess.

PNV is also saying that they won't support PSOE nationally unless they go with a progressive government in Navarra (ie, one led by PSOE and supported by GBai and Podemos and IU). I don't think PNV is hardline enough to actually vote down a Sánchez government unless it's clear it's failing, but that's what they claim.

On that note, it was widely expected that ERC and Bildu would form a joint parliamentary group in Congress after the election. However, that seems to have been dropped. That means that it's possible that ERC abstains and Bildu votes against (or viceversa). Their votes won't be as linked, though it's still very likely that they'll vote together in most stuff.

Meanwhile the Canarian election ended in a clusterf*** with the tiny Gomera Socialist Group (an insular party) as kingmaker having to decide between a left wing PSOE-UP-NCa coalition or a right wing CC-PP-Cs one. Either that or a PSOE-CC grand coalition.

Or at least that's what it seemed in paper. After the election, both PSOE and PP seem to be seriously considering the possibility of a PSOE-PP coalition!

Remember Spain has absolutely no tradition of grand coalitions or PSOE-PP alliances, with the only example at the regional level being the Basque Country in 2009 (which isn't exactly a role model as Clavijo is not Ibarretxe and CC is not 2009's PNV, who was actively pushing for secession!)

CC similarly is rejecting any notion of supporting Sánchez nationally, not even with a minority PSOE government (as opposed to a proper PSOE-UP coalition)

As of now I think the most likely scenario is still a left wing coalition, but if PSOE-PP really go for it it would be unprecedented.

At the national level I believe the likeliest scenario is a PSOE-UP deal of some sort with a Bildu and/or ERC abstention and both UPN and CC voting against.

Cs has also been softening to PSOE but I can't see them doing a coalition with Sánchez or abstaining


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 30, 2019, 10:24:16 AM
Cs national leadership reacted with visible displeasure to the Valls offer; party spokepersons stated they don't support 'populists' like Ada Colau.

That's... ironic... :)

The Ada Colau party has many internal contradictions (basically on the national question), but nothing comparable to the impossible reconciliation between liberal values and cooperation with the illiberal Vox, the Spanish branch of Trump International. I think oranges will get increasingly entangled in their inconsistency.

On the other hand I think Ada Colau should consider the Valls offer, because losing the Barecelona mayoralty would entail the end of her political career and the death of her political force. The results of her party outside the city of Barcelona were horrible, disappearing in places like Terrassa or Sabadell (formerly strongplaces for the PSUC and ICV)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: windjammer on May 30, 2019, 10:31:00 AM
Lol, so Sanchez isn't going to pass a budget and new elections will be held in less than 2 years!!!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on May 30, 2019, 10:36:49 AM
Lol, so Sanchez isn't going to pass a budget and new elections will be held in less than 2 years!!!

Hopefully the next election will be in 4 years. Negotiations in parliament will be terribly complicated, but I think Sánchez will last more than 2 years.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 30, 2019, 10:40:12 AM
Lol, so Sanchez isn't going to pass a budget and new elections will be held in less than 2 years!!!

Hopefully the next election will be in 4 years. Negotiations in parliament will be terribly complicated, but I think Sánchez will last more than 2 years.

I fully expect an election to happen in late 2022 at the latest. I can't see Sánchez wanting a general election so close to the regional/local elections of 2023 again.

Granted, that's still 3 and a half years from now, but still not the full 4 years


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on June 01, 2019, 11:20:01 PM
Nationwide precinct map of the Spanish Local Elections

https://www.eldiario.es/politica/votaron-elecciones-municipales-resultados-calle_0_904309592.html

Precinct map of the Madrid regional election

https://www.eldiario.es/politica/MAPA-resultados-Comunidad-Madrid-calle_0_903610901.html

The rivalry between Podemos founders Pablo Iglesias and Íñigo Errejón in graphs. Más Madrid, the list led by Ïñigo Errejón, got 14.7% (471k) in regional elections while the Unidas Podemos list backed by Pablo Iglesias got 5.6% (179k). The combined vote of Más Madrid and UP exceeded by 40 thousand votes the UP result in the general elections. Also, the combined result of MM and UP retained the 27 seats won by Podemos in 2015 (IU got 4.3% and didn't win seats), while the PSOE won 37 seats in both elections with a 2% increase in vote share. Compared to the EP results, UP lost nearly 230k and PSOE 157k. Presumably a vast majority of these votes backed Más Madrid in regional elections. With these results Ïñigo Errejón has stated the intention to create a new party inspired in the German Greens. For the moment this party would not extend outside the borders of Madrid, but Errejón doesn't rule out alliances with other regional forces to create a federal structure in all Spain.

https://www.eldiario.es/madrid/primera-electoral-Iglesias-Errejon-graficos_0_904309895.html

In the news: "Center-right Ciudadanos is under growing pressure not to do deals with the far-right Vox, which could allow the left to form a government in the Madrid region and elsewhere"

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/05/31/inenglish/1559288173_006357.html

Quote
(...) his Italian-style situation has been brewing for years now, but it has been consolidated with the recent election results. It is also putting a spotlight on those who are offering Italian-style solutions, such as the Spanish-born Valls, the Ciudadanos candidate for Barcelona City Hall. He is offering his votes to the incumbent mayor, former campaigner Ada Colau, in a bid to keep control of the council out of the hands of pro-independence candidate Ernest Maragall. In the case of Íñigo Errejón, formerly of Podemos but who ran for the Madrid regional government with the Más Madrid party, he is offering to do a deal with Ciudadanos and the PSOE in order to keep the PP and Ciudadanos from relying on the support of far-right Vox to form a government both in the regional assembly and city council (...)




Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: windjammer on June 02, 2019, 06:31:38 AM
Nationwide precinct map of the Spanish Local Elections

https://www.eldiario.es/politica/votaron-elecciones-municipales-resultados-calle_0_904309592.html

Precinct map of the Madrid regional election

https://www.eldiario.es/politica/MAPA-resultados-Comunidad-Madrid-calle_0_903610901.html

The rivalry between Podemos founders Pablo Iglesias and Íñigo Errejón in graphs. Más Madrid, the list led by Ïñigo Errejón, got 14.7% (471k) in regional elections while the Unidas Podemos list backed by Pablo Iglesias got 5.6% (179k). The combined vote of Más Madrid and UP exceeded by 40 thousand votes the UP result in the general elections. Also, the combined result of MM and UP retained the 27 seats won by Podemos in 2015 (IU got 4.3% and didn't win seats), while the PSOE won 37 seats in both elections with a 2% increase in vote share. Compared to the EP results, UP lost nearly 230k and PSOE 157k. Presumably a vast majority of these votes backed Más Madrid in regional elections. With these results Ïñigo Errejón has stated the intention to create a new party inspired in the German Greens. For the moment this party would not extend outside the borders of Madrid, but Errejón doesn't rule out alliances with other regional forces to create a federal structure in all Spain.

https://www.eldiario.es/madrid/primera-electoral-Iglesias-Errejon-graficos_0_904309895.html

In the news: "Center-right Ciudadanos is under growing pressure not to do deals with the far-right Vox, which could allow the left to form a government in the Madrid region and elsewhere"

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/05/31/inenglish/1559288173_006357.html

Quote
(...) his Italian-style situation has been brewing for years now, but it has been consolidated with the recent election results. It is also putting a spotlight on those who are offering Italian-style solutions, such as the Spanish-born Valls, the Ciudadanos candidate for Barcelona City Hall. He is offering his votes to the incumbent mayor, former campaigner Ada Colau, in a bid to keep control of the council out of the hands of pro-independence candidate Ernest Maragall. In the case of Íñigo Errejón, formerly of Podemos but who ran for the Madrid regional government with the Más Madrid party, he is offering to do a deal with Ciudadanos and the PSOE in order to keep the PP and Ciudadanos from relying on the support of far-right Vox to form a government both in the regional assembly and city council (...)



It would be dumb from them to make a deal with Mas Madrid and PSOE. Their electorate is definitely rightwing.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on June 02, 2019, 01:45:13 PM
First post-regional elections poll.

PSOE: 34%
PP: 15%
Cs: 15%
UP: 13%
Vox: 8%

Other than the fact that PP is actually up and not down imo and that I don't think PSOE has gone up that much (though they did get 33% in the EU elections I guess), it seems fairly believable.

Also, under these numbers PSOE+UP get an overall majority without needing anyone else.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on June 02, 2019, 03:02:27 PM

It would be dumb from them to make a deal with Mas Madrid and PSOE. Their electorate is definitely rightwing.

I don't think it's dumb to explore alternatives that keep the far right out of power, but sadly the likeliest scenario in Madrid is the rightwing triumvirate. I'm not a big fan of Manuel Valls, but he's absolutely right in putting his principles above everything else.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on June 02, 2019, 04:06:07 PM
With regard to the analysis of local elections in Barcelona, according to eldiario.es pro-independence parties decreased in the upper class neighbourhoods and increased in the lower class. While the affluent areas switched from CiU to the Manuel Valls list backed by Cs, there's an increase of the vote for ERC in the working-class neighbourhoods correlated to an increase in the Barcelona Metropolitan Region. The article talks about a "Rufián effect", referring to the controversial ERC candidate in general elections Gabriel Rufián (verbose separatist with Andalusian origins, very popular in Twitter). Local election results in the poor areas of Barcelona and Metro region were good for the PSC, but the support for the Ada Colau party decreased. Pro-independence increase does not imply hegemony, since the support for separatist parties is always below 30% in the poorest neighbourhoods of Nou Barris and the Besos. In the wealthy neighbourhoods of Barcelona  the ERC increase does not compensate the decrease of JxCAT with regard to CiU in 2015. Cs (Valls) is the preferred party of the Barcelona rlites, ehile PSC makes inroads in these traditionally hostile places. The PSC increase is apparently uniforn throughout the city. BCOMU decreased in poorest neighbourhoods that returned to PSC, as well in lower middle class areas, while resisted better in upper middle class neighbourhoods where ERC is the first party. Following the link you'll find some interesting maps and stuff

https://m.eldiario.es/catalunya/politica/independentismo-barrios-fuerza-humildes-Barcelona_0_903960271.html



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: windjammer on June 02, 2019, 04:10:20 PM

It would be dumb from them to make a deal with Mas Madrid and PSOE. Their electorate is definitely rightwing.

I don't think it's dumb to explore alternatives that keep the far right out of power, but sadly the likeliest scenario in Madrid is the rightwing triumvirate. I'm not a big fan of Manuel Valls, but he's absolutely right in putting his principles above everything else.


Valls has destroyed the French left so hopefully he will destroy Ciudadanos.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on June 02, 2019, 04:37:27 PM
First post-regional elections poll.

PSOE: 34%
PP: 15%
Cs: 15%
UP: 13%
Vox: 8%

Other than the fact that PP is actually up and not down imo and that I don't think PSOE has gone up that much (though they did get 33% in the EU elections I guess), it seems fairly believable.

Also, under these numbers PSOE+UP get an overall majority without needing anyone else.

Could Sanchez call another election so he won't have to rely on the hated separatists, or would that risk inducing election fatigue?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Velasco on June 02, 2019, 04:54:12 PM
I think the local and regional elections were good for the PSOE and the EP election was a huge success for the list topped by the Catalan anti-separatist Josep Borrell, as well as a good one for Puigdemont in Catalonia (but not for his party in local elections). I think there is a huge election fatigue in all of Spain except in the heated Catalonia


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Local and Regional Elections on May 26, 2019)
Post by: Former President tack50 on June 02, 2019, 07:25:04 PM
First post-regional elections poll.

PSOE: 34%
PP: 15%
Cs: 15%
UP: 13%
Vox: 8%

Other than the fact that PP is actually up and not down imo and that I don't think PSOE has gone up that much (though they did get 33% in the EU elections I guess), it seems fairly believable.

Also, under these numbers PSOE+UP get an overall majority without needing anyone else.

Could Sanchez call another election so he won't have to rely on the hated separatists, or would that risk inducing election fatigue?

Most likely it would see election fatigue. I can't see Sánchez risking an early election, he will do everything in his power to be elected right now.

I would not rule out an election in 2 years time or so though, if the secessionists still refuse to pass his budgets.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II ( in the aftermath of April and May elections)
Post by: Velasco on June 04, 2019, 11:31:55 PM
Leading party by neighbourhood in the Barcelona local elections of 2015 and 2019

()

Results:
 ERC 21.3% (+10.3%) 10 (+5) councilors. Candidate: Ernest Maragall
BComú 20.7% (-4.5%) 10 (-1) councilors. Candidate: Ada Colau
PSC 18.4% (+8.8%) 8 (+4) councilors. Candidate: Jaume Collboni
BpC Cs 13.2% (+2.2%) 6 (+1) councilors. Candidate: Manuel Valls
JxCAT (CiU 2015) 10.5% (-12.3%) 5 (-5) councilors. Candidate: Joaquim Forn*
PP 5.0% (-3.7%) 2 (-1) councilors. Candidate: Josep Bou

CUP 3.9% (-3.5%) 0 (-3) councilors
BCAP Primaries 3.7% (new) 0 councilors
VOX 1.2% (+0.9%) 0 councilors

* Joaquim Forn is in preventive detention. The second in the list is the spokeswoman of the Catalan government Elsa Artadi

Take a look at the income map in a previous post to spot socioeconomic patterns


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II ( in the aftermath of April and May elections)
Post by: Former President tack50 on June 05, 2019, 07:23:56 AM
Certainly an interesting map. Colau seems to have her vote more evenly spread out compared to ERC, Cs (who won the rich "Upper Diagonal") or PSC (which a concentrated vote in Nou Barris.

In more news: Pablo Iglesias has fired Pablo Echenique as Podemos' head of organization. He himself is not resigning of course. I wonder if Iglesias clinging on to Podemos might lead to UPyD syndrome (with Iglesias sinking the party). Of course even now Podemos is larger than UPyD ever was but still.

https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2019/06/04/5cf6d1f821efa01f208b45a2.html

Also, UPN seems open to negotiating an abstention with Sánchez in exchange for Pamplona's mayorship and the regional government. PSOE now has a tough choice to make. If they take the offer, any chances of getting Bildu support inmediately evaporate and even PNV support would not be certain. While I still believe PNV will backtrack, they have said they won't support Sánchez if he props up UPN in Navarra. I most certainly can't imagine PNV of all people forcing a second election.

As for the other party that may prop up Sánchez (CC), that isn't happening.

Today were the king's consultations with parties, which will go on this afternoon and tomorrow as well. ERC and Bildu declined to attend.

https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2019/06/05/5cf78c04fc6c833a328b4825.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II ( in the aftermath of April and May elections)
Post by: Velasco on June 05, 2019, 08:34:46 AM
Certainly an interesting map. Colau seems to have her vote more evenly spread out compared to ERC, Cs (who won the rich "Upper Diagonal") or PSC (which a concentrated vote in Nou Barris.

No, it's the opposite. The ERC vote is more evenly spread than the Ada Colau's.

The best neighbourhood for ERC was la Barceloneta (30.2%) and it's the only one where the Ernest Maragall list got more than 30% of the vote. The worst was Ciutat Meridiana (10.6%) in Nou Barris. ERC got between 20% and 30% of the vote in a majority of neighbourhoods. There are a few places where ERC got less than 15%, mostly in the poor peripheral places won by the PSC and in some upper class neighbourhoods like Pedralbes.


Barcelona en Comú, the Ada Colau party, got its best results in the tiny la Clota (32.1%) and in Sant Pere, Santa Caterina i la Ribera (30.4%), located in Horta-Guinardó and Ciutat Vella districts respectively. The worst result was in Pedralbes (4.8%) and it got less than 10% in some other wealthy neighbourhoods. In the rest of Barcelona the vote for BComú is more evenly spread, either in middle class or working class neighbourhoods.

The PSC regained its stronghold in Nou Barris from BComú, but it also managed to grow in middle and upper class neighbourgoods. Socialists got more than 30% in several neighbourhoods of Nou Barris (Ciutat Meridiana 38.7%) and el Carmel. Also, the PSC got more than 10% in the same upper class neighbourhoods where the Colau party is weak, which is an improvement. Somewhat surprisingly the worst result for the PSC was in Vila de Gràcia (11.3%), that is a neighbourhood with a leftist tradition (BComú came first getting 27.6%) and a strong nationalist vote. PSC got between 15% and 20% in a majority of neighbourhoods.

The best result for the list of Manuel Valls was in Pedralbes (34.8%), the wealthiest neighbourhood of Barcelona located in Les Corts district; the second best in Las Tres Torres (33.8%) in Sarrià-Sant Gervasi district. The worst results were in places like la Clota (5.7%) and Vila de Gràcia (7.3%).

Junts got it best result in Sarrià (19.4%), but lost ore than a half of its support in the uptown places that voted CiU in 2015 and now embraced Valls. The worst results for JxCAT were in Nou Barris (Ciutat Meridiana 2.1%)

PP got 10% in Pedralbes and some 1.7% in la Clota
 

BComú came first in 6 of the 10 municipal districts, ERC in 2 (Eixample and Les Corts), PSC in 1 (Nou Barris) and Cs in 1 (Sarrià-Sant Gervasi).

In the news: ERC suspended negotiations with BComú asking Ada Colau to make clear if she wants to deal with Ernest Maragall or go with the socialists and Valls. It's telling.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II ( in the aftermath of April and May elections)
Post by: Velasco on June 05, 2019, 09:56:14 AM
Regarding Podemos, Pablo Echenique will be replaced by Alberto Rodríguez (aka Rastaman), a deputy from Santa Cruz de Tenerife. Rodriguez is senior technician in environnental chemistry and worked in the petrol refinery located in the Tenerife capital. His rastaman appearance shocked Mariano Rajoy at the inaugural session of the Congress after the 2015 elections; the picture of Rajoy gazing at Rodríguez was published by all papers. My cousin has met Rodríguez and says he's a nice man. Podemos, is more than ever the Pablo Iglesias and Irene Montero Cult Sect. I guess Podemos will become increasingly marginal over the time and I only hope that it's not replaced by something worse.

It'd be a shame the Navarrese Socialists are sacrificed again in exchange for the UPN votes, as it happened in 2007. PSOE candidate Maria Chivite will begin to talk with GBai, Podemos and IU. The problem is that she needs that EH Bildu abstains and the PSOE national leadership doesn't like it. Also, EH Bildu is seeking to retain the Pamplona mayoralty. That requires PSOE votes in favour of the EH Bildu candidate, which is not going to happen.

In the Canaries, Cs rejects to vote for the CC candidate Fernando Clavijo because he's been investigated for an affair dating back to his tenure as mayor of La Laguna. PSOE could try a deal with Podemos, NC and Casimiro Curbelo... or a deal with the PP. CC is governing since 1993: 26 years of cronyism and incompetence.

The Cs leadership agreed that PP is the preferential partner for coalitions, but rules out direct negotiations with VOX (dirty work is left to the PP). The centrist faction represented by Luis Garicano and the candidate in Castile and Leon Francisco Igea advocated deals with PSOE (Garicano supported the Valls move in Barcelona, as separatists will "destroy" the city and Colau is the "lesser evil"). Igea prefers to deal with the socialists in his region, while Ignacio Aguado in Madrid rejects any alternative to the deal with PP (and Vox). The problem is that Vox is not willing to accept being ignored and marginalized by the oranges. Santiago Abascal assures he prefers to commit hara kiri (allowing Carnena and Gabilondo to govern) to be humiliated by the arrogant  orange vanes...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Velasco on June 07, 2019, 01:10:09 AM
Pedro Sánchez accepts the commission of King Felipe to form a government "as soon as possible". Spanish political parties have been meeting with King Felipe to discuss who they will support in the investiture vote. During these talks, PSOE and Pedro Sánchez remained silent playing the "waiting game"

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/06/06/inenglish/1559813278_485053.html

Quote
Ana Oramas, a lawmaker with the small regional party Canary Coalition (CC) with years of experience in negotiations, put it bluntly: “It is the first time in 11 years that we have arrived at the round of talks with the king without having a single conversation with the investiture candidate or their team.”

Ana Oramas ruled out CC will help Pedro Sánchez, given that her party rejects deals with Podemos and presumably the PSOE will have to make an arrangement with the purples. However there exists the option to replace the 2 CC votes with the 2 deputies of the Navarrese People's Union (UPN, part of NA+). The abstention of the 2 Navarrese regionalists would pave the way for Pedro Sánchez to be elected in a second investiture vote, providing that PSOE secures the support of UP, PNV, Compromís and PRC. These parties add 173 seats (3 short of a majority), while the parties voting against would add 172 seats (discounted the 2 UPN deputies and the 3 JxCAT deputies in preventive detention that haven't been replaced). Reminder: first investiture requires absolute majority (176 seats of 350), while second investiture vote requires simple majority (more votes in favour than against).

 The abstention of the UPN deputies would be in exchange for the PSOE abstention in the Navarrese regional parliament and in the Pamplona town hall, allowing NA+ to govern the region and its capital. This deal would entail the sacrifice of the Navarrese branch of the PSOE led by María Chivite, who is seeking a deal with GBai (PNV and progressive independents), Podemos and IU that requires the abstention of EH Bildu (Basque separatists) to succeed. PSOE national leadership dislikes the idea of a regional government depending on EH Bildu, because Pedro Sánchez is seeking an investiture without the support of separatist parties and needs the UPN votes. Apparently this exchange between PSOE and UPN won't create major problems with the PNV, despite it entails the GBai ally will go to opposition in Navarre (PNV might be considering run in its own or with another brand in Navarre).On the other hand, PP leader Pablo Casado stated he doesn't oppose a deal between UPN and PSOE if NA+ governs. Cs leader Albert Rivera is against such deals and he considers PSOE should simply allow the "constitutionalists" to govern, instead seeking the support of "populists" and "separatists". NA+ is a coalition operating in Navarre including UPN, PP and Cs.

The PSOE has been playing a waiting game in order to strengthen its position in negotiations, as well to move into centre stage

Quote
he Socialists appear to be playing a waiting game while other parties – especially the center-right Ciudadanos (Citizens) and the far-right Vox – hold numerous meetings, negotiate with one another, and deal with infighting.

The PSOE is open to all options, even to a deal with Ciudadanos, which may ultimately prove too difficult. And it has managed to keep its options open without hardly entering into negotiations. “The PSOE is not calling anybody because it is taking its time to see if there are other allies around,” said Alberto Garzón, the leader of United Left, which joined forces with the anti-austerity party Podemos at the general election to run as Unidas Podemos.

Albert Rivera has made clear there is no chance for a deal with the PSOE, as he is engaged to fight with Pablo Casado for the leadership of the opposition (Rivera claims leading the opposition is a matter of "attitude" and not necessarily a matter of seats in parliament). In what regards UP, the disastrous performance on May 26 diminishes the chance to enter in a coalition government. PSOE spokepersons have suggested that Pablo Iglesias should reconsider his pretensions. The weaker position of UP is reflected in the way socialists are no longer treating the coalition led by Iglesias as a "preferential partner", although the 42 UP votes in Congress are still necessary for Pedro Sánchez. After his meeting with King Felipe, Pablo Iglesias complained because Pedro Sánchez did not contact him in the past two weeks. The image of this "humbled" Iglesias contrasts sharply with his arrogant press conference after the meeting with the king after the 2015 elections. Then the attitude of Iglesias was dismissive, stating that it'd be a "smile of destiny" that Pedro Sánchez became PM.  The possibility of a PSOE-UP coalition is apparently fading away, but in any case negotiations start now.

Quote
Sánchez has liked to play a leading role in negotiations ever since he took power in June 2018 after leading a successful no-confidence motion against former Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy of the PP. But this time around he is following the strategy of his predecessor, who always waited to see how the pieces fell before making a move.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Velasco on June 07, 2019, 04:13:07 AM
Regarding the formation of regional governments, you can check the pactometre (interactive map that shows you deal options when you click on a region)

https://elpais.com/especiales/2019/elecciones-autonomicas/pactos-electorales/


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on June 07, 2019, 06:13:39 AM
Pedro Sánchez accepts the commission of King Felipe to form a government "as soon as possible". Spanish political parties have been meeting with King Felipe to discuss who they will support in the investiture vote. During these talks, PSOE and Pedro Sánchez remained silent playing the "waiting game"

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/06/06/inenglish/1559813278_485053.html

Quote
Ana Oramas, a lawmaker with the small regional party Canary Coalition (CC) with years of experience in negotiations, put it bluntly: “It is the first time in 11 years that we have arrived at the round of talks with the king without having a single conversation with the investiture candidate or their team.”

Ana Oramas ruled out CC will help Pedro Sánchez, given that her party rejects deals with Podemos and presumably the PSOE will have to make an arrangement with the purples. However there exists the option to replace the 2 CC votes with the 2 deputies of the Navarrese People's Union (UPN, part of NA+). The abstention of the 2 Navarrese regionalists would pave the way for Pedro Sánchez to be elected in a second investiture vote, providing that PSOE secures the support of UP, PNV, Compromís and PRC. These parties add 173 seats (3 short of a majority), while the parties voting against would add 172 seats (discounted the 2 UPN deputies and the 3 JxCAT deputies in preventive detention that haven't been replaced). Reminder: first investiture requires absolute majority (176 seats of 350), while second investiture vote requires simple majority (more votes in favour than against).

 The abstention of the UPN deputies would be in exchange for the PSOE abstention in the Navarrese regional parliament and in the Pamplona town hall, allowing NA+ to govern the region and its capital. This deal would entail the sacrifice of the Navarrese branch of the PSOE led by María Chivite, who is seeking a deal with GBai (PNV and progressive independents), Podemos and IU that requires the abstention of EH Bildu (Basque separatists) to succeed. PSOE national leadership dislikes the idea of a regional government depending on EH Bildu, because Pedro Sánchez is seeking an investiture without the support of separatist parties and needs the UPN votes. Apparently this exchange between PSOE and UPN won't create major problems with the PNV, despite it entails the GBai ally will go to opposition in Navarre (PNV might be considering run in its own or with another brand in Navarre).On the other hand, PP leader Pablo Casado stated he doesn't oppose a deal between UPN and PSOE if NA+ governs. Cs leader Albert Rivera is against such deals and he considers PSOE should simply allow the "constitutionalists" to govern, instead seeking the support of "populists" and "separatists". NA+ is a coalition operating in Navarre including UPN, PP and Cs.

The PSOE has been playing a waiting game in order to strengthen its position in negotiations, as well to move into centre stage

Quote
he Socialists appear to be playing a waiting game while other parties – especially the center-right Ciudadanos (Citizens) and the far-right Vox – hold numerous meetings, negotiate with one another, and deal with infighting.

The PSOE is open to all options, even to a deal with Ciudadanos, which may ultimately prove too difficult. And it has managed to keep its options open without hardly entering into negotiations. “The PSOE is not calling anybody because it is taking its time to see if there are other allies around,” said Alberto Garzón, the leader of United Left, which joined forces with the anti-austerity party Podemos at the general election to run as Unidas Podemos.

Albert Rivera has made clear there is no chance for a deal with the PSOE, as he is engaged to fight with Pablo Casado for the leadership of the opposition (Rivera claims leading the opposition is a matter of "attitude" and not necessarily a matter of seats in parliament). In what regards UP, the disastrous performance on May 26 diminishes the chance to enter in a coalition government. PSOE spokepersons have suggested that Pablo Iglesias should reconsider his pretensions. The weaker position of UP is reflected in the way socialists are no longer treating the coalition led by Iglesias as a "preferential partner", although the 42 UP votes in Congress are still necessary for Pedro Sánchez. After his meeting with King Felipe, Pablo Iglesias complained because Pedro Sánchez did not contact him in the past two weeks. The image of this "humbled" Iglesias contrasts sharply with his arrogant press conference after the meeting with the king after the 2015 elections. Then the attitude of Iglesias was dismissive, stating that it'd be a "smile of destiny" that Pedro Sánchez became PM.  The possibility of a PSOE-UP coalition is apparently fading away, but in any case negotiations start now.

Quote
Sánchez has liked to play a leading role in negotiations ever since he took power in June 2018 after leading a successful no-confidence motion against former Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy of the PP. But this time around he is following the strategy of his predecessor, who always waited to see how the pieces fell before making a move.

It's pretty obvious that the Socialists don't have any option BUT a coalition with Podemos. So whatever Sanchez thinks about Iglesias' humility he won't be returned as PM without forming a government with him.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Velasco on June 07, 2019, 08:22:40 AM

It's pretty obvious that the Socialists don't have any option BUT a coalition with Podemos. So whatever Sanchez thinks about Iglesias' humility he won't be returned as PM without forming a government with him.

It's obvious that socialists have no other option but seeking the UP support. The main goal of Pablo Iglesias right now is entering in a coaltion government, in order to mitigate the effects of rlectoral catastrophe (Iglesias saved his face in April, but UP collapsed in May) and touch power. The 42 seats that UP holds in Congress are an important asset in negotiations, but socialists know that Pablo Iglesias can't threat them seriously with a repetition of elections (it'd be a disaster for UP) and that not everybody in the Iglesias' group is comfortable with the idea of a coalition government. For instance the Andalusian branch led by Teresa Rodríguez prefers not to participate in a coalition and favours an agreement on platform issues between PSOE and UP, as it happens in Portugal with PS and the leftist parties. The Podemos-IU alliance in Andalusia resisted better than in other regions, retaining the mayoralty of Cádiz.Teresa Rodríguez is a representative of the Podemos faction that is further to the left...

As I said before, negotiations start now and all is gambling


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Velasco on June 08, 2019, 05:15:31 AM
Pedro Sánchez is ready to begin talks t form a new government

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/06/07/inenglish/1559891314_393684.html

Quote
I have a tremendous feeling of gratitude for the Spanish people, and a tremendous sense of responsibility,” said Sánchez, who will next week initiate talks with the conservative Popular Party (PP), center-right Ciudadanos (Citizens) and left-wing Unidas Podemos to discuss support for a PSOE-led government.

“We need to start this conversation. It’s either the PSOE or the PSOE. There is no alternative majority,” he said. “Everyone is responsible for facilitating this government, most particularly Podemos, the PP and Ciudadanos.”

The acting PM will meet Pablo Iglesias first, but the consultation round will follow with Pablo Casado and Albert Rivera. Sánchez will pressure rightwing leaders asking them to abstain and facilitate his investiture. It's highly unlikely that PP and Cs will help Sánchez and the negotiations between PSOE and UP will be tough. As said in the oprevious post the creation of a majority without the support of the (always unreliable) separatist parties is very complex and depends on the abstention of the Navarrese regionalists. Pablo Iglesias is upset because Pedro Sánchez hasn't talked with him in the last two weeks and says he fears the PSOE leader is considering a deal with Cs, despite the recent moves of the orange party and the awful personal relation between Sánchez and Rivera say otherwise.

PP and Vox sealed a deal to govern the municipalities where both parties have a majority without Cs. The deal has to be countersigned by local organizations and would affect around 30 municipalities including Almería and several towns belonging to its province (El Ejido, Adra, Roquetas de Mar, Nerja), Algeciras (Cádiz province, in front of Gibraltar), Ceuta and some wealthy towns in Madrid province (Pozuelo de Alarcón, Majadahonda and Las Rozas). However the deal won't be viable in Ceuta due to the Vox's "aggressive" message "contrary to connivance", according to local PP sources. This deal comes out in the context of the complex negotiations between PP and Cs, particularly tough in Madrid. A meeting between representatives of the PP and Cs municipal groups in Madrid went badly, to the point that PP councilor elect Andrea Levy (former deputy and Rajoy's protegé, a young promising star from Catalonia) stated that she's not sure who's going to support Cs. Sadly this doesn't imply that Cs will allow Manuela Carmena and Ángel Gabilondo to govern the Spain's capital and the region of Madrid. Rather the oranges are seeking to place Begoña Villacís as mayor or Ignacio Aguado as premier. The way Cs rejects to negotiate face to face with Vox, despite oranges need the far right votes to govern, is an additional difficulty. Madrid is too important for the Spanish Right to be lost due to differences between parties, so the most likely scenario is the Colón Triumvirate finally reaches an agreement to secure the city and the region's "tax oasis".

BComú grassroots endorsed massively the Cplau's decision to seek reelection as mayor of Barcelona.

PSOE and PAR reached an agreement in Aragon that doesn't secure a majority (only, but prevents the possibility of a rightwing government. The centre-right Aragonese Party ruled out deals with Vox due the radical centralism of the Santiago Abascal party. The PSOE premier Javier Lambán has secured 27 of 67 seats (PSOE 24, PAR 3) and needs to reach agreements with Cs (12) or the leftist parties (Podemos  5, CHA 3 and IU 1).

Casimiro Curbelo is the kingmaker in the Canary Islands, once socialists ruled out a deal with the PP. The cacique of La Gomera island caught a flight to Madrid and met minister of Development José Luis Äbalos, who is also the PSOE's secretary for organization. They talked about a deal that would allow the socialists to replace CC regionalists in government. Curbelo stated that he will be "cool and pragmatic" and didn't give clues on which candidate he will support. The leader of La Gomera left the PSOE in 2011 and since then he allied with CC in regional parliament. Even if he gets the support of the ASG (Gomera Socialists), the acting CC premier has a problem with Cs. Fernando Clavijo is under investigation for an old affair as mayor of La Laguna (Tenerife) and oranges reject to back him because of this. CC officials met in Madrid with Cs secretary general José Manuel Villegas in order to lift the veto on Clavijo. Orange bosses will look the Clavijo affair "calmly", according to a CC spokeperson. The parties left of the centre (PSOE 25, NC 5 and Podemos 4) hold 34 seats in regional parliament, parties right of the centre (CC 20. PP 11 and Cs 2) hold 33 and the Curbelo's ASG holds the remaining 3.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Velasco on June 09, 2019, 01:04:14 AM
Yesterday there was a meeting of the Podemos' "citizen council", the party's executive committee. Pablo Iglesias made his case with the coalition, arguing that the only way to change policies is entering the government ("programmatic agreements are dead letters", he said). Currently the "citizen council" consists in the Iglesias' supporters and the regional leaders, given that a majority of the members close to Íñigo Errejón faction has left and the remaining are mere spectators. The only opposition to Pablo Iglesias comes from regions like Andalusia and Aragon, whose representatives favour programmatic agreement instead coalition government as well as a greater decentralization of the party structure. The spokesman of the Andalusian branch warned about the risk of a coalition with the PSOE in a moment the European Commission is demanding cuts to Spain. Pablo Iglesias analyzed the causes of the bad electoral results, arguing they were due to internal division and organizational weakness. The Podemos leader criticized the weak regional structures and the lack of territorial leadership. He only acknowledged the work well done by José María González (aka Kichi, mayor of Cádiz) and Ada Colau (the mayor of Barcelona is not a Podemos member and her reelection is not secured). Iglesias argued that he performed better in general elections (not a good result, but above expectations), showing little capacity for self-criticism in the view of many analysts. The Podemos leader claims he wants to lead a new political stage with coalition governments at all administrative levels. The two-party system is dead and now "compromise and dialogue" are necessary. Iglesias warned again on the possibility that Pedro Sánchez tries to deal with Cs. Finally the renewal of the Podemos leadership entails that Pablo Echenique has been replaced by the Canarian deputy Alberto Rodríguez as Secretary for organization (third-in-line after Pablo Iglesias and Irene Montero) and that Ïñigo Errejón no longer appears as member in the party website.

The "serious doubts" towards the PP of the Cs candidate Francisco Igea favour an approach to the PSOE in Castile and León. PSOE candidate José Luis Tudanca encouraged Igea to reach an agreement in the view of their "multiple coincidences". PP governs the region since 1987.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Former President tack50 on June 10, 2019, 11:39:14 AM
While at the regional level there will be some variation, at the local level, all 8000+ municipalities will actually have their first town council meeting and elect a mayor this Saturday, from Madrid to the tiniest village with like 5 inhabitants.

Here is how mayors are elected in Spain:

1: Local Elections This already happened on the 26th of May. The electoral system is standard D'Hondt with a 5% hurdle and we all know the results.

2: First Council Meeting: At the first council meeting, all heads from each party with representation in the town council are automatically candidates for mayor unless they drop out.

3: Mayor vote: An overall majority (50%+1) of Councillors is needed to elect a mayor. There is only a single round of voting.

4: Failsafe: If no one candidate gets 50%+1 of Councillors, the head of the party which got the most votes is automatically elected as mayor

5: No Confidence votes: At any point during the 4 year term a no confidence vote can be introduced against the mayor. If 50%+1 of Councillors agree, the mayor is replaced. I believe this is capped to a single successful no confidence vote for the entire 4 year term but don't quote me on that.

So it's pretty much like a small scale version of the national parliament.

Last term (2015-2019), some high profile no confidence votes/party control switches include Badalona for example (town in the Barcelona suburbs, used to have a CUP mayor until PSC stopped supporting it and a PP+PSC brought a PSC mayor even if PP was larger).

If the mayor resigns at any point, this process is also used.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Velasco on June 11, 2019, 01:28:23 AM
Pedro Sánchez opens the negotiations for his investiture today. He will hold consecutive meetings (in this order) with Pablo Iglesias, Albert Rivera and Pablo Casado. The strategy of the governing party is to direct pressure over opposition leaders making them responsible for the stability of the country. The alternatives are a PSOE government or the repetition of elections, warned José Luis Äbalos from the PSOE's HQs. Socialists take for granted a repetition of elections would entail the downfall of UP and a decrease for Cs. Ábalos stressed that Spaniards won't forgive those who jeopardize stability. Today Pedro Sánchez will demand political actors "generosity", "patriotism" and "giving in for the common good". "It's important that Spaniards know which parties have constructive willingness (...) and which ones want to kick the table". PP and Cs will be pressed to abstain in the investiture vote, invoking the 2016 precedent when most of the PSOE MPs abstained to allow the investiture of Mariano Rajoy (Pedro Sánchez opposed and was ousted from leadership shortly thereafter). Sánchez claims abstention would be an act of consistency and offers PP and Cs "big agreements" on pensions, regional funding and infrastructures.

PSOE leadership rules out the "Navarrese Path" for investiture. The abstention of the  UPN deputies in Congress would be useless, because it would entail the withdrawal of PNV support. Right now the PSOE is willing to allow NA+ (UPN, PP and Cs) to govern Pamplona, replacing the acting local government led by EH Bildu. Results in Pamplona: NA+ 13 councilors, EH Bildu 7, PSOE 5 and GBai 2. The PSOE won't support EH Bildu mayoral candidates in Navarre and refuses to negotiate with Basque separatists. Despite this, PSOE candidate María Chivite won't give up her attempt to govern the region. Chivite would need the support of GBai (Basque nationalists) and the leftist parties to succeed, as well as the abstention of EH Bildu. Composition of regional parliament: NA+ 20 seats, PSOE 11, GBai 9, EH Bildu 7, Podemos2, IU 1.

Socialists maintain their rejection to a coalition government with Unidas Podemos, arguing they would consider the possibility if both parties had a majority. PSOE and UP only have 165 seats, while majority is set at 176. They also argue that a coalition with UP would substract the support of parties like CC. They also dislike some Iglesias' statements claiming that UP would be vigilant in order to ensure progressive policies are implemented. However Pablo Iglesias is not willing to give up. The Podemos leader says he won't give blank cheques to Pedro Sánchez. "If we are not in the government, the PSOE would agree with us some social measures" merely cosmetic "to decide the broad policy lines with the right".Iglesias says Podemos is not seeking "State ministries" such as Foreign Affairs or Defense, but ministries with social portfolios.

Today begins the investiture debate at the Valencian regional parliament. PSOE agreed on the dead line with Compromís and UP that coalition partners will have a half of the cabinet seats. There are differences on the division of management areas. PSOE candidate Ximo Puig seeks reelection as premier of the Valencian Community, while Compromís leader Mónica Oltra will be the deputy premier. After the 2015 elections Podemos signed a confidence and supply agreement with PSOE and Compromís, but this time UP (Podemos+IU) enters the regional government.

PP candidate in Ceuta and acting mayor-president of the autonomous city Juan Jesús Vivas seals an agreement with the PSOE, rejecting the agreement between PP and Vox national leaderships to govern the municipalities where both parties have a majority. "We don't want to know anything about Vox", said Vivas. Socialists will vote the investiture of the  PP candidate, but they won't enter the local government.

Meanwhile Cs leader in Madrid Igancio Aguado lifted the ban and met with Vox candidate Rocío Monasterio, in order to agree who is the speaker of the Madrid regional assembly and composition of the bureau.This meeting could pave the way for a three way agreement between PP, Cs and Vox.

Cs national leadership warns Castile and León candidate Francisco Igea that PP is the preferential partner for coalitions.

PNV and PSOE sign a deal that could seize 8 municipalities in the Basque Country from EH Bildu
 



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Velasco on June 13, 2019, 06:20:16 AM
PSOE and UP agreed to negotiate a "government of cooperation"

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/06/11/inenglish/1560259078_292095.html

Quote
After meeting on Tuesday for an hour and 20 minutes, the parties announced they have agreed to negotiate a “government of cooperation.”

Complex negotiations will now begin on the exact nature of this cooperation. For the PSOE, this means negotiating with Iglesias’s party to decide who will take ministerial positions. “We will look for formulas for a plural government with people who are leaders in their fields. [Pablo] Iglesias has told the prime minister that he will consider it. It is an inclusive government, not a closed one like a coalition government,” said PSOE parliamentary spokesperson Adriana Lastra after the meeting.

For Unidas Podemos, it means that they will have a say in who is named minister. At the press conference, Lastra did not rule out the possibility that Iglesias will be part of the executive. “In the last 12 months, we have shown that the left knows how to understand one another,” she said(...)

So "government of cooperation" appears to be a rhetoric compromise solution rather than an innovative formula for governance. Both parties agreed they need to reach an agreement.

As expected, PP and Cs leaders rejected to abstain in the investiture. The goal to achieve an investiture without the cooperation of ERC seems unattainable. After the first round of conversations with the parliamentary groups -excluding EH Bildu and Vox- the socialists reached an agreement with the PRC (Cantabria regionalists). However the spokepersons of the regionalist parties CC (Canaries) ad UPN (Navarre) stated their rejection. In the case of CC, deputy Ana Oramas said again her party will never support any government participated by Podemos, either coalition or programmatic agreement. In the case of UPN, they'll vote against if socialists govern Navarre. So the positions are fixed and we haven't moved from the starting point. Pedro Sánchez can secure 173 votes (3 short from majority) reaching agreements with UP, PNV, Compromís and PRC. In order to be elected in the second investiture vote, it's necessary that at least one of the separatist parties (ERC, JxCAT and EH Bildu) abstains.

The trial of the Catalan separatist leaders at the Supreme Court is remitted for decision. The defendants call for a political solution of the crisis in their final speeches

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/06/13/inenglish/1560408638_344315.html

Quote
The 12 Catalan separatist leaders on trial for rebellion and other crimes in connection with the unilateral secession attempt of October 2017 made their final statements at the last hearing on Wednesday.

All of them insisted that they are political prisoners on trial because of their ideas. They said their only aim had been to give Catalan citizens a chance to express themselves through a referendum, and called for political dialogue with the central government in Madrid as the only way out of the conflict.

The sentence is expected in October and the political repercussions will be huge. Prosecutors have used tortuous legal arguments to support the charge of rebellion and the existence of the "necessary violence". The defendants admit they are guilty of disobedience, but they tried to minimize the i,importance of the unilateral declaration of independence and the previous events in September and October 2017.

BComú and PSC will negotiate a preliminary agreement that would allow Ada Colau to be reelected as Mayor of Barcelona, with the "unconditional support" of the councilors loyal to Manuel Valls.

Meanwhile Cs confirms its total allegiance to the rightwing bloc. PP, Cs and Vox are aimed at reaching agreements to govern the regions of Madrid and Murcia. In the case of Madrid, the Colón Triumvirate secured the control of the regional assembly's bureau, seizing one seat from Más Madrid to Vox (Errejón said they will appeal to the Constitutional Court). PP and Vox agreed the far right party will be rewarded with some regional secretariats, as Cs still opposes that Vox gets cabinet seats in regional governments. PP and Cs reached a preliminary agreement to govern Castile and León as well., despite the initial reluctance of Cs candidate Francisco Igea.

CC offered the PP to lead regional government in the Canary Islands.

The PP-Cs regional government reached an agreement with Vox in Andalusia that allows to pass this year's budget. It entails concessions on ideological and "cultural battle" affairs, such as renaming gender-based violence (now it's called "domestic violence") or changes in historical memory regarding victims of the Civil War (limitation to "actions in mass graves, recovery and tracking of mass graves and DNA bank") and the "enhancement of the discovery of America and subsequent exploits"


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Velasco on June 15, 2019, 12:20:02 PM
While at the regional level there will be some variation, at the local level, all 8000+ municipalities will actually have their first town council meeting and elect a mayor this Saturday, from Madrid to the tiniest village with like 5 inhabitants.

José Luis Martínez- Almeida (PP) replaces Manuela Carmena as Mayor of Madrid with the support of PP, Cs and Vox. Begoña Villacís (Cs) will be Deputy Mayor. PP signed separate deals with Cs and Vox. The details are published in media and maybe I could translate some measures tomorrow in case anyone's interested

https://elpais.com/ccaa/2019/06/15/madrid/1560585242_658455.html

There's nothing illegal in the decision to work with Vox, says the new mayor

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/15/spanish-parties-far-right-vox-madrid

Quote
Martínez-Almeida succeeds Manuela Carmena, a leftwing former judge whose four-year stint as mayor was marked by a commitment to diversity and the environment.

The new mayor shrugged off criticism of his party’s decision to work with Vox, challenging anyone “to find anything that lies outside the legal order” in his deals.

But he also promised to serve all the people of Madrid.

“Between us, we will build Madrid,” said Martínez-Almeida. “We won’t leave behind those who want a more open Madrid. We want to write the future and not remember the past.”

Carmena congratulated her successor and reminded him of the importance of both feminism and democracy.

“We need to look after democracy because we know what it cost to bring democracy to this country,” she said. “It took so much, such an effort and so many lives that we cannot forget it.”  


Ada Colau (Barcelona en Comú) reelected Mayor of Barcelona with the support of BComú, PSC and 3 independent councilors of the Manuel Valls list (the 3 Cs councilors abstained)

While Madrid, Zaragoza and the towns in Galicia have been lost, arcelona and Cadiz remain as strongholds of the alternative left (besides Valencia, where Joan Ribó of Compromís was reelected).

"Power to the people": renewables revival in Barcelona and Cádiz

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jun/14/power-to-the-people-how-spanish-cities-took-control-of-energy

Quote
 After a close fight, Barcelona’s radical mayor, Ada Colau, is expected to take office for a second term on Saturday, vindicating her often-criticised policies, which have included making sure all the city’s municipal buildings and services run on renewable energy.  


In the nearby Badalona the PSC candidate Alex Pastor was elected Mayor with the support of his party, the ERC-Guanyem list of former mayor Dolors Sabater, En Comú Podem and JxCAT. PP candidate and former mayor Xavier García Albiol expected to be elected, as his list came first and there was no alternative coalition to oust him. However Dolors Sabater stepped aside and all the councilors of her list voted for the PSC candidate, despite nationalists got more votes than socialists in elections. García Albiol is well known for his anti-immigrant stances and ran a personalist campaign without PP banners...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Former President tack50 on June 16, 2019, 06:26:23 AM
ABC has a great map of who ended up as mayor in each of the 52 provincial capitals

https://www.abc.es/media/espana/2019/06/16/ayntamientos-capitales-provincia-kO8E--1248x698@abc.jpg

Posting only the link in order to combat mods :P



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: xelas81 on June 16, 2019, 08:55:45 AM
ABC has a great map of who ended up as mayor in each of the 52 provincial capitals


Posting only the link in order to combat mods :P


How did IU win Zamora?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Former President tack50 on June 16, 2019, 08:57:36 AM
ABC has a great map of who ended up as mayor in each of the 52 provincial capitals


Posting only the link in order to combat mods :P


How did IU win Zamora?

Back in 2015, Podemos did not run any candidates there, so IU worked as the default option for those voters. Not only that but the mayor ran a really good campaign and ended up winning.

The mayor turned out to be extremely popular and he won a landslide this year (getting an overall majority!) despite Zamora's partisanship. It also helps that Zamora is a small town of only 60 000 inhabitants, which makes "retail politics" easier.

Another extremely popular mayor who won a huge majority is PSOE in Vigo (a large Galician city, albeit not a provincial capital), who got 67% of the vote and 20/27 Councillors! (though Vigo is actually a left wing city, though he still won a massive landlide vastly overperforming PSOE's baseline)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Velasco on June 16, 2019, 09:30:22 AM
The personal factor often weighs more than ideology in local elections and Zamora is a clear example. IU mayor Francisco Guarido forged his reputation as a hard-working opposition councilor. The sapping of the PP local government and the infighting within local PSOE paved the way for Guarido in 2015. Guarido remains loyal to the IU banner and rejects alliances with Podemos. His work as mayor was approved by the neighbours of this middle-sized conservative town in Castile and Guarido was easily reelected this year. The only IU mayor in a provincial capital was a school janitor before entering politics.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Velasco on June 17, 2019, 05:31:32 AM
Manuela Carmena resigned her council seat this morning and quits politics. The former Mayor of Madrid met the press briefly, thanked journalists their kindness and told them she is no longer a public figure, took a look to the flowers at the balcony in Plaza Mayor and continued her stroll.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Former President tack50 on June 17, 2019, 06:53:16 AM
Apparently it's official, Manuel Valls and Cs are finally splitting. The reason being how Colau got elected mayor with the support of the Valls-linked independents against the will of Cs.

Their joint list got 6 Councillors in the last local election. 3 of them are independents with close ties to Valls (Valls himself; Celestino Corbacho, a former Labour minister under Zapaptero and Eva Parera, a former Senator for CiU).

The 3 "proper" Cs councillors will form their own group separate from the 3 Valls-linked independents. I wonder if a hypothetical Manuel Valls led party would gain any traction in Catalonia or if this is the end of Valls' political career (from PM of France to a splitter councillor in a Spanish town hall!)

https://www.europapress.es/nacional/noticia-ciudadanos-rompe-valls-barcelona-separa-tres-concejales-apoyo-colau-20190617133800.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Velasco on June 17, 2019, 08:01:32 AM
Manuel Valls had already warned he would break with Cs once the deals with Vox in Madrid and elsewhere crystallised. Claiming now that Cs breaks with Valls because he voted for Colau, as he had warned already, strikes to me another sample of political cynicism.

The Valls move prevented that Barcelona becomes the capital of a non-existing republic ruled by a "reborn separatist" who displays the zeal of the convert. Valls chose what he considers the lesser evil. That's what politics is about. I never liked Valls very much, but in my opinion his decision is worthy of praise.

Right now there are problems within the Colón Triumvirate in Madrid, because Vox is demanding its share in local government and more visibility against the Cs wishes...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Velasco on June 18, 2019, 04:05:43 AM
Ciudadanos breaks with Manuel Valls

https://www.politico.eu/article/spains-ciudadanos-manuel-valls/#superComments

Quote
Spain’s liberal Ciudadanos has cut ties with Manuel Valls after the former French prime minister supported the leftist Ada Colau for Barcelona mayor.

Valls — who was born in Barcelona, grew up in France and is a French citizen — had himself run for mayor under a common banner with Ciudadanos, but Colau’s party and a separatist party came out on top.

Valls said he and his representatives supported Colau when city hall members voted for a new mayor over the weekend because he didn’t want a separatist in office, but Ciudadanos representatives opted to cast blank ballots, according to El País.

On Monday, a spokeswoman for Ciudadanos said it had officially cut ties with Valls and its representatives would no longer work with him, arguing there was “very little difference” between Colau and the separatists’ mayoral candidate.

Though Colau is not a separatist, Ciudadanos has taken issue with her support for Catalan secessionists jailed during a trial over their push for independence.

"We were right [not to support Colau] when we saw that her first decision was to put on the yellow ribbon," said Ciudadanos spokeswoman Inés Arrimadas, referring to a symbol that has been worn to show support for the jailed politicians and which Colau put up at city hall. Arrimadas said that if a pro-separatist politician became mayor, they would have done the same.

“We want our own voice in the city hall of Barcelona,"Arrimadas said.

The relationship between Albert Rivera and Manuel Valls is strained since months ago, to the point the Cs leader didn't participate in the Barcelona campaign with his star candidate. Rivera and Valls haven't talked in months, being Inés Arrimadas the main contact between the former French PM and the Cs leadership. The cause of disagreement is obviously the association between Cs and Vox that began after regional elections in Andalusia. Valls attended the Colón Square rally in February,  but refused to come on stage with the Vox representatives. He claimed being there in defence of the Spanish Constitution and not to attack the government. Valls already threatened to break with Cs once the deals with PP and Vox in Madrid crystallized. In previous days he exchanged praising tweets with acting Aragon premier Javier Lambán (PSOE). There are rumours pointing to the possible creation of a new centrist force in Catalonia led or participated by Valls, but they have been ruled out. In any case there's an empty space in Catalan politics ranging from pragmatic nationalists to moderate Catalanists wanting to remain in Spain. Middle-ground options on the national question, to the left and the right side of the spectrum, have been overwhelmed by the polarization created by the procés (Catalan separatist drive)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Zinneke on June 18, 2019, 04:38:40 AM
The question is when Arrimadas will wake up and realise she's progressive again...before or after her party heads for the PP-shaped electoral gutter in their province of birth.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Velasco on June 18, 2019, 02:06:56 PM
The question is when Arrimadas will wake up and realise she's progressive again...before or after her party heads for the PP-shaped electoral gutter in their province of birth.

I had some hopes placed in Arrimadas, but I lost my faith in her. Cs is not as monolithic as it appears, there are some "social-liberals" who are not very happy with the coalition policies. Party founder Francisco de Carreras is demanding Rivera a correction, in order that Cs abstains in the investiture of Sánchez. Allegedly there is a strong pressure from the business world in the same direction, because PSOE-Cs is preferable for economic powers to a government dependant on Podemos and ERC. However, Rivera clings to the idea of becoming the leader of the Spanish Right and his leadership in Cs is undisputed. Arrimadas is not showing signs of independence, her move to Madrid didn't pay off and weakened Cs in Catalonia. Manuel Valls could try to fill that void, if rumours on a new party "inspired"* by him are true. Apparently the business world that backed Rivera is now in love with Valls...

*Valls would be the one of the mentors of the new party, but not the leader. Apparently the proposed name is Lliga Democratica ("Democratic League") and it'd be a centre-right catalanist force. Councilor Eva Parera could be one of the visible leaders and Valls would remain formally as the leader of his local party Barcelona pel Canvi. In fact, the BpC municipal group is reduced to Valls and Parera, because Celestino Corbacho joined the Cs group today as an independent.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Former President tack50 on June 19, 2019, 07:01:09 AM
Today IMOP-El Confidencial published an extremely interesting poll regarding monarchy vs republic in Spain. It is no secret that the Spanish monarchy is by far the most unpopular and controversial one in Europe. However monarchists still seem to keep a narrow lead

Top line

Republic: 46%
Monarchy: 51%
Undecided: 3%

Crosstabs

Men: Republic 50-47
Women: Monarchy 42-54

18-24 year olds: Republic 70-26
25-34 year olds: Republic 55-45
35-44 year olds: Republic 52-45
45-54 year olds: Monarchy 44-55
55-64 year olds: Monarchy 36-61
65+ year olds: Monarchy 36-58

Andalucia: Monarchy 24-75
Madrid: Monarchy 62-37
Rest of Spain: Monarchy 39-56
Valencia: Republic 50-50
Galicia: Republic 52-46
Basque Country: Republic 71-25
Catalonia: Republic 74-22

PP voters: Monarchy 8-91
Cs voters: Monarchy 17-83
Vox voters: Monarchy 18-82
PSOE voters: Republic 52-45
UP voters: Republic 86-9

https://www.vanitatis.elconfidencial.com/casas-reales/2019-06-19/encuesta-vanitatis-felipe-letizia-monarquia-republica-espana-cataluna_2075143/


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Skye on June 19, 2019, 09:41:52 AM
In a fun turn of events, C's got their candidate elected as mayor in my city (Palencia), thanks to some wacky negotiations with the PP in order for the right to retain the Presidency of Castile and Leon. This, despite the fact that C's only got 12% of the vote in the election and only 3 councilors (out of 25). Man, this country's politics never cease to amaze me.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Velasco on June 19, 2019, 05:22:27 PM
In a fun turn of events, C's got their candidate elected as mayor in my city (Palencia), thanks to some wacky negotiations with the PP in order for the right to retain the Presidency of Castile and Leon. This, despite the fact that C's only got 12% of the vote in the election and only 3 councilors (out of 25). Man, this country's politics never cease to amaze me.

PP rewarded Cs Burgos and Palencia, yes. PSOE and Cs made some weird agreements in certain municipalities of Castile-La Mancha, but such alliances were the exception and the deals with PP and Vox were the norm. The case of Palencia pales in comparison with the amazing events that took place in Melilla, though. The longtime mayor-president of that North African autonomous city, the PP candidate Juan José Imbroda, was replaced by the only Cs councilor Eduardo de Castro. The Cs candidate was backed by the Coalition for Melilla (CpM) and the PSOE, while Imbroda was backed by his party and Vox. The inaugural session at the Melilla Town Hall was tense, some people called "traitor" to the new mayor and Imbroda (19 years in office) bullied him when they crossed paths.

Results in Melilla:

PP 37.8% 10 councilors
CpM 30.6% 8 councilors
PSOE 14.4% 4 councilors
Vox 7.8% 2 councilors
Cs 5.5% 1 councilor 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Velasco on June 21, 2019, 03:00:56 AM
Manuel Valls: “With Vox you end up getting your hands dirty, and to some extent, your soul”

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/06/20/inenglish/1561019292_995673.html

Quote
Former French Prime Minister Manuel Valls admits he is upset that the center-right party Ciudadanos (Citizens) has broken the coalition that was formed nine months ago to support Valls’ bid for Barcelona mayor. On Monday, Ciudadanos announced that its 13-member executive committee had decided to break with the Barcelona-born politician for helping Ada Colau, of the leftist Barcelona en Comú party (the regional branch of Podemos), get reelected as the mayor of Barcelona – a decision Valls made to stop City Hall falling into the hands of the pro-independence Catalan Republican Left (ERC).

But the tensions run deeper. Valls has been a vocal critic against making deals with the far-right party Vox, whose support Ciudadanos and the right-wing Popular Party (PP) need if they are to take power in several municipal and regional governments – including the Madrid region.

The first moment of tension arose over a protest in Madrid’s central Colón square in February called by the PP, Ciudadanos and Vox to demand the resignation of acting Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez of the Socialist Party (PSOE). Valls’ team had said he would not attend the event, but a few hours later, facing pressure from Ciudadanos, he confirmed he would be present to defend the Spanish Constitution – not to push for Sánchez’s resignation. Valls also refused to take the stage to have his photo taken alongside members of the PP, Ciudadanos and Vox (...)


PSOE reached an agreement with New Canaries, Podemos and the Casimiro Curbelo's group to govern the Canary Islands. Ängel Víctor Torres will be the second socialist premier since the establishment of the Canarian autonomous government. This deal puts an end to 26 years of governments led by the Canary Coalition (CC), whose establishment was the result the amalgamation of several parties (AIC, CDS, ICAN and AM) that seized power through a no confidence motion against socialist premier Jerónimo Saavedra in 1993. The result of the 2019 elections placed the cacique of La Gomera island Casimiro Curbelo as the kingmaker. Curbelo is a former socialist who left the party in 2011 after an incident involving the senator for La Gomera and his son in a sauna located in Madrid. He could have supported the CC candidate and acting premier Fernando Clavijo, since his group has been propping up the CC minority government alongside PP. Additionally Curbelo and Clavijo have befriended. However, Fernando Clavijo is under investigation for an affair that took place during his tenure as Mayor of La Laguna (Tenerife). For that reason Cs rejected to back a deal between CC, PP and ASG with Clavijo as candidate. Given that a CC-led government lacked a majority and the last hour desperate attempts to negotiate an alternative failed, Curbelo decided to seal a pact with the Left. This is a major setback for CC, in addition to the loss of Santa Cruz de Tenerife and La laguna (both elected PSOE mayors) and the possible loss of several Cabildos including Tenerife.

Similarly PSOE made a preliminary agreement to govern the Balearic Islands with Podemos and the "eco-sovereigntist" MÉS.

PSOE and UP will form a coalition government in La Rioja.

The agreement between PP and Cs in Castile and León is almost sealed. This deal entails that PP awarded Cs with the mayoralty of Palencia and Burgos, but the latter elected a PSOE mayor because Vox failed. The agreement with PP was imposed by the Cs national leadership, despite the regional candidate preferred a deal with the PSOE and put an end to 32 years of conservative governments.

The situation in Navarre is complex. Socialists are trying to reach an agreement with Geroa Bai (moderate Basque nationalists), Podemos and IU. This coalition needs the collaboration of EH Bildu (Basque separatists), either affirmative first vote or abstention in the second vote. The PSOE rejects to negotiate with EH Bildu, a political force that bears the stigma of being the "heir of ETA". Dealing with EH Bildu in Navarre creates problems to the PSOE in the rest of Spain, so negotiations are always very difficult. However, the parties involved managed to reach a complicated formula to negotiate the election of the speaker (GBai) and the composition of the regional parliament's bureau, avoiding direct contact between PSOE and EH Bildu. This could be the prelude of a similar arrangement in the election of the regional government, which would help to secure the PNV support in the investiture of Pedro Sánchez but also would entail the UPN deputies vote against.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Michael19754 on June 22, 2019, 12:13:10 PM
Invymark poll:
PSOE:35.9% (up 7.2%)
PP:15.1% (down 1.6%)
C's:14.0% (down 1.9%)
UP:12.9% (down 1.4%)
VOX:8.1% (down 2.2%)
20 point lead for Pedro Sánchez, if true puts pressure on C's, PP and UP to let him govern in exchange for nothing.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Velasco on June 24, 2019, 07:46:42 AM
Cs parliamentary spokesman for economic affairs Toni Roldán leaves the party, arguing that its turn to the right represents a high cost for Spain. Roldán considers that Cs is betraying its founding principles: reformism, regeneration or fight against corruption and fight against nationalism. Roldán is an economist disciple of Luis Garicano, the leader of the Cs delegation in the EP. He was member of the Cs executive committee, responsible for the economic platform and deputy for Barcelona.  Major setback for Albert Rivera and his strategy


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Former President tack50 on June 24, 2019, 09:51:55 AM
Cs parliamentary spokesman for economic affairs Toni Roldan leaves the party, arguing that its turn to the right represents a high cost for Spain. Roldan considers that Cs is betraying its founding principles: reformism, regeneration or fight against corruption and fight against nationalism. Roldan is an economist disciple of Luis Garicano, the leader of the Cs delegation in the EP. He was member of the Cs executive committee, responsible for the economic platform and deputy for Barcelona.  Major setback for Albert Rivera and his strategy

To add to this, Javier Nart, Cs' former leader in the EU parliament has also left the party.

The "moderate" faction in Cs seems quite angry at the party leadership for their deals with PP and rejecting almost all cooperation with PSOE


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: MRCVzla on June 27, 2019, 06:59:26 AM
Electomanía' online panel based-polls are back, reflecting a significant fall of Cs and UP, the PSOE maintaining the first place, while great recovery by PP, and unlike other pollsters, Vox  does not fall so strong.

PSOE 32,1% (138)
PP 20,2% (89)
Cs 12,5% (37)
UP 12,2% (32)
Vox  9,0% (18)

Meanwhile, the daily drama for the formation of government continues, with the threat of an electoral repetition, as the blockade continues between forces, either to enter the government or to facilitate abstentions.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Velasco on June 28, 2019, 10:28:10 AM
Pedro Sánchez heads investiture debate in July without having secured the UP support. Negotiations between PSOE and its "preferential partner" stalled, as both parties have different points of view concerning the elephant in the room, that is to say, the entry of Pablo Iglesias and his fellows in the government

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/06/27/inenglish/1561623443_293514.html


Quote
  The political situation in Spain remains deadlocked with the Socialist Party (PSOE) and left-wing Unidas Podemos group still unable to reach an agreement that would allow Pedro Sánchez to be reelected as prime minister.

  Sánchez and Unidas Podemos leader Pablo Iglesias had agreed to negotiate a “government of cooperation” but are refusing to budge from their respective positions over what this means. The PSOE leader is willing to offer Iglesias mid-level government positions but the anti-austerity chief wants Cabinet positions that will reflect his party’s weight relative to the PSOE in parliament (42 seats versus 123) – an idea Sánchez has rejected.

In an effort to break the deadlock, the acting prime minister announced that he will set a date for the investiture vote with the speaker of Congress, Meritxell Batet, on Tuesday. While the government says no decision has yet been made, the vote is likely to happen on July 16.

But the move has not had the desired effect. On Wednesday, Iglesias warned that the first investiture vote, where an absolute majority of 176 votes is needed, will fail. “An agreement is closer than it seems, although we will have to wait two-and-a-half months,” he said (...)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on June 29, 2019, 12:55:10 AM
Pedro Sánchez heads investiture debate in July without having secured the UP support. Negotiations between PSOE and its "preferential partner" stalled, as both parties have different points of view concerning the elephant in the room, that is to say, the entry of Pablo Iglesias and his fellows in the government

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/06/27/inenglish/1561623443_293514.html


Quote
 The political situation in Spain remains deadlocked with the Socialist Party (PSOE) and left-wing Unidas Podemos group still unable to reach an agreement that would allow Pedro Sánchez to be reelected as prime minister.

  Sánchez and Unidas Podemos leader Pablo Iglesias had agreed to negotiate a “government of cooperation” but are refusing to budge from their respective positions over what this means. The PSOE leader is willing to offer Iglesias mid-level government positions but the anti-austerity chief wants Cabinet positions that will reflect his party’s weight relative to the PSOE in parliament (42 seats versus 123) – an idea Sánchez has rejected.

In an effort to break the deadlock, the acting prime minister announced that he will set a date for the investiture vote with the speaker of Congress, Meritxell Batet, on Tuesday. While the government says no decision has yet been made, the vote is likely to happen on July 16.

But the move has not had the desired effect. On Wednesday, Iglesias warned that the first investiture vote, where an absolute majority of 176 votes is needed, will fail. “An agreement is closer than it seems, although we will have to wait two-and-a-half months,” he said (...)


Pedro Sanchez is very good at politics. I'm surprised he is having this much trouble sweetening the deal for Podemos. I susoect that PSOE really wouldn't mind new elections given their rise in the polls. Iglesias, who is not so good at politics, perhaps doesn't understand this.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Former President tack50 on June 29, 2019, 06:14:46 AM
To be honest there is a huge almost unsavable difference: Podemos wants to get cabinet ministers in the government while PSOE wants a minority government.

So someone has to cave.

I wonder, if we go to a 2nd election, will Sánchez be blamed for it? I think polls are overestimating Sánchez a bit.

Then again back in 2016 we saw the largest party (PP) go up, but the party blamed for the election repetition (Podemos) did go down.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on June 29, 2019, 09:20:59 AM
To be honest there is a huge almost unsavable difference: Podemos wants to get cabinet ministers in the government while PSOE wants a minority government.

So someone has to cave.

I wonder, if we go to a 2nd election, will Sánchez be blamed for it? I think polls are overestimating Sánchez a bit.

Then again back in 2016 we saw the largest party (PP) go up, but the party blamed for the election repetition (Podemos) did go down.

I think that the polling bubble that Sanchez sits on is liable to pop at any moment, and that he cannot possibly be dumb enough to believe that it is sure to last especially with PP also rising in the polls. A new election is likely to yield similar results with more seats for unlikely partner PP and less for likely partners UP and Cs. He is probably counting on Podemos' dive in the polls to freak them out into submission to a vote-and-supply deal.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Velasco on June 29, 2019, 10:23:29 AM
Pedro Sánchez and Pablo Iglesias are playing the "chicken game": there are two cars in collision course coming from the opposite sides of the road, the one who gets out first loses. Both have their reasons to defend their positions. Socialists feel uncomfortable with a coalition government for various reasons including lack of tradition, personal factors (focused on Pablo Iglesias) and affairs of state (crisis in Catalonia and differences between parties on the way to handle the situation). The main reason why Pablo Iglesias plays this game is that his presrnce in a coalition government could be his salvation. It would help him to silence opposition within Podemos and allies, as well as mitigate the effects of the bad electoral results. Also, being in the governnent would pave the way for a peaceful succession of Pablo Iglesias, to be replaced by his partner Irene Montero in Podemos leadership.

Apparently there are different points of view in the Pedro Sánchez entourage, regarding the possibility of fresh elections in autumn. Spin doctor Iván Redondo likes the idea, but minister and right hand José Luis Abalos is not so enthusiasmed


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 02, 2019, 06:49:35 AM
Well, we finally have a date for Sánchez's investiture vote as PM. Round 1 will happen on the 22nd of July (50%+1 needed), and if that fails, round 2 will be held on the 25th of July (simple majority needed).

If both fail, the clock starts counting down to the 15th of September. If there is no government by then, a snap election gets automatically called, most likely for the 10th of November.

I can't imagine a repeat election actually happening, but I also have a hard time seeing Sánchez succeed. His demands and Podemos' demands are incompatible and Cs will not abstain. It is also possible Sánchez is seeing the polls and wanting to risk it for some reason.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Skye on July 02, 2019, 09:16:06 AM
Even if Sánchez gets a bigger number in a hypothetical snap election (say, 30-35% of the vote), won't that be for naught if the PSOE doesn't get a majority of the seats? It'd be like what's going on right now.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on July 02, 2019, 10:33:07 AM
Even if Sánchez gets a bigger number in a hypothetical snap election (say, 30-35% of the vote), won't that be for naught if the PSOE doesn't get a majority of the seats? It'd be like what's going on right now.

The idea is that the bargaining chips would be greater.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: jaichind on July 02, 2019, 10:53:14 AM
Exactly what is Sánchez's concern about having UP as part of the government?  Would he not want that so they share in the "blame" for any difficult decisions ?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez)
Post by: Velasco on July 02, 2019, 06:52:54 PM
Exactly what is Sánchez's concern about having UP as part of the government?  Would he not want that so they share in the "blame" for any difficult decisions ?

I guess the main reason is that there's no tradition of coalition governments at national level. PSOE is the party that has been more years in power since 1977, when the first elections of the present democratic period took place. Socialists governed between 1982 to 1996, then from 2004 to 2011 and they came back to power in June 2018. They have governed always alone, with majorities in parliament in the 1980s and with confidence and supply agreements later. So we are talking about a party with government experience and accostumed to exercise power without sharing it. On the contrary, Podemos is a party founded five years ago with no experience in government (except at local level, with different electoral formulas in Madrid or Barcelona). The dazzling Podemos outbreak disrupted the political chessboard and threatened the PSOE's hegemony in the Spanish Left. I suspect some socialists still see Podemos as an intruder. Additionally, the arrogant attitude of Pablo Iglesias during the failed negotiations in 2016 doesn't help. Now Iglesias is adopting a more humble attitude and his demands sound more reasonable, as the balance of forces is less favourable for his interests. The personal relationship between Pedro Sánchez and Pablo Iglesias is much better now, particularly since the Podemos leader played a key role in the success of the no confidence motion that ousted Mariano Rajoy*. However, Iglesias is a man with a strong personality and Sánchez doesn't like the idea of having him as Deputy PM. Such a perspective makes him nervous. Other possible reasons are pressures from economic powers**, the differences between PSOE and Podemos on Catalonia or that the coalition with Podemos doesn't have the numbers and would have to rely on the support of ERC or Bildu.  

*Pablo Iglesias forced Albert Rivera to make a strategic mistake with the consequence that Pedro Sánchez secured the PNV support, necessary to win the no confidence vote. The Podemos leader announced that, in case the Pedro Sánchez's attempt failed, he would submit another motion with the only purpose to call elections. Albert Rivera backed enthusiastically the Iglesias' proposal, as he was impatient because Cs was leading in the polls a year ago. However, the perspective of a Cs victory frightened the PNV because of the centralism of Rivera and his opposition to the Basque fiscal system. Despite the PNV voted the Rajoy's budget the previous week, the fear of Rivera made Basque nationalists to vote the no confidence motion.

**Cs leader Albert Rivera is being pressed already from various sides to allow the investiture of Pedro Sánchez, but his personal ambition is stronger than reasons of state and other arguments concerning the problematic relationship with Vox


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Skye on July 03, 2019, 06:17:49 AM
So... there's a new CIS poll and the results are as follows:

PSOE: 39.5
C's: 15.8
PP: 13.7
Podemos: 12.7
VOX: 5.1
ERC: 3.9

In other words:

PSOE+UP: 52.2
C's+PP+VOX: 34.6

http://datos.cis.es/pdf/Es3252marMT_A.pdf

EDIT: April election results:

PSOE+UP: 43
C's+PP+VOX: 42.8

Big swing to the left if true. Though isn't CIS a bit too friendly to the left?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 03, 2019, 07:45:15 AM
So... there's a new CIS poll and the results are as follows:

PSOE: 39.5
C's: 15.8
PP: 13.7
Podemos: 12.7
VOX: 5.1
ERC: 3.9

In other words:

PSOE+UP: 52.2
C's+PP+VOX: 34.6

http://datos.cis.es/pdf/Es3252marMT_A.pdf

EDIT: April election results:

PSOE+UP: 43
C's+PP+VOX: 42.8

Big swing to the left if true. Though isn't CIS a bit too friendly to the left?

Yeah. CIS got lucky with the election, but outside campaign season it's massively biased for PSOE.

To get an idea of how biased, with those results, PSOE would get its first overall majority since the González era! (1986 to be precise)

In fact those results would be very reminiscent of something out of the mid 80s to an extent. The left vs right results are almost identical to those from 1982! (the largest landslide ever in Spanish history).

Needless to say, PSOE is not getting anywhere close to 40%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 03, 2019, 11:02:23 AM
The CIS poll is a joke.

There is a Sigma Dos poll with a vote estimation more in line to the result of the EP elections

PSOE 32.6%, PP 19.4%, UP 13.2%, Cs 13.1%, Vox 8%, ERC 4.2%

The last Invymark poll is better for the PSOE. However, I think a repetition of elections is too risky for Pedro Sánchez.  Election fatigue will likely boost abstention and hurt socialists. A scenario similar to Andalusia is unlikely in a general election, but a higher abstention won't help to create majorities.

There are problems within the Colón Triumvirate. Negotiations in the Madrid region are stalled and the PP candidate in Murcia didn't pass the first investiture vote because Vox didn't back him. The party led by Santiago Abascal demands three way negotiations and that oranges stop pretending that Cs and Vox are not talking. The PP candidate in Madrid already said that Cs and Vox are in contact on a daily basis. Isabel Diaz Ayuso is visibly exhausted of this game.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 04, 2019, 03:35:05 PM
ox voted against the investiture of Fernando López Miras, the PP candidate in the region of Murcia, preventing his election. The reason is that Vox demanded to PP and Cs a publc meeting and a basic programatic agreement signed by the three parties. Cs agreed to the first condition and the parties held a meeting this morning. Albert Rivera remained in silence, but Cs secretary general José Manuel Villegas and deputy Juan Carlos Girauta stated that in neither case they will reach agrements with Vox. They attended the meeting only to "have a coffee" and explain Vox representatives the deal between PP and Cs. These statements outraged Vox and provoked the withdrawal of its representatives from the meeting.

Yesterday there was a disgusting insult exchange between Vox and Cs via Twitter

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/07/04/inenglish/1562233109_074015.html

Quote
The tensions surrounding the ongoing negotiations in the Madrid and Murcia regions to choose a new premier, and the pressure on far-right party Vox to support the candidates chosen by the conservative Popular Party (PP), exploded on Wednesday on social media, with one tweet that even contained personal insults aimed at the leader of the center-right Ciudadanos (Citizens) party.

The controversy was sparked by a message posted on Twitter from the official account of Vox, an ultra-nationalist group that picked up considerable support at the recent national, regional and municipal polls. “The height of nerve,” read the post, which was aimed at the Ciudadanos party. “Tell that scared, shameless boss of yours to forget about a cordon sanitaire, to stop kissing [French President Emmanuel] Macron’s ass and to let you sit down at a table and reach agreements with normal people. And if not, go and do a deal with the PSOE [Socialist Party], which is what you want anyway.”
The message referred to the unwillingness of Ciudadanos to enter into direct talks with Vox, despite both it and the PP needing the votes of the far-right group in order to form a government in regions such as Madrid and Murcia, thus keeping the left from taking power. Vox has already lent its support to the PP and Ciudadanos in Andalusia to form a government, and in Madrid City Hall. But talks are going nowhere in both Madrid and Murcia, with the clock ticking to the moment when fresh elections will have to be called.

The controversial tweet was sent in response to Ciudadanos’ organization secretary, Fran Hervías, who had criticized Vox for starting to “paralyze institutions by aligning itself with [left-wing] Podemos and the PSOE,” in allusion to its vote against the PP’s candidate for regional premier in Murcia, Fernando López Miras, and its refusal to support Isabel Díaz Ayuso for the same role in Madrid. “Pedro Sánchez and Pablo Iglesias must be delighted with their new partners,” the message added, in reference to the leaders of the PSOE and Podemos, respectively.

Shortly after the message was sent, Ciudadano sent a light-hearted reply. “Wow, classy. Congratulations, you are now a summer hit,” the Twitter post read, accompanied by a music video from a group called Locomía, singing their song Loco vox (or, “crazy vox”).

LocoVox tune by the dancing guys from Ibiza

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=197&v=75nOiN6qDH0


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: bigic on July 04, 2019, 04:06:35 PM
Will Cs turn to PSOE?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 04, 2019, 04:24:11 PM
The CIS poll points something that is relevant. There is a growing concern among citizens over the state of Spanish politics

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/07/04/inenglish/1562225341_303951.html

Quote
Politicians and political parties are considered one of the biggest problems facing Spain, according to the June survey from the Centre for Sociological Research (CIS). The poll found that politicians rank behind only unemployment on the list of Spaniards’ concerns. Almost a third of those interviewed – 32.1%, four percentage points more than in May – say they are worried about the country’s politicians. This is the highest level since 1985.

The results come as political deadlock in Spain continues to deepen, more than two months after the April 28 general election. Although acting Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez, of the Socialist Party (PSOE), has set a date for an investiture vote, he does not currently count on the necessary support from other political parties to be voted back into office by deputies in Congress. One of the main stumbling blocks has been the political stalemate between the Socialists and the left-wing anti-austerity group Unidas Podemos, whose 42 votes are needed to ensure Sánchez’s investiture bid is successful.

Up until a decade ago, around 10% of Spaniards were concerned about politicians but this figure began to rise in the middle of 2009 during the financial crisis. Since then, the downward trend has continued.

According to the June results, almost two-thirds (62.5%) of Spaniards say unemployment is the biggest national problem, followed closely by politics.

Political discontent reached similar peaks (above 30%) on two occasions in 2012 and 2013, just before the emergence of new political parties. After the repeat general elections of 2016, concern over politicians began to rise again until reaching the historic level in June (...)


Right now it's very unlikely. At this point it's more a personal question for Albert Rivera than anything. The "social-liberal" faction favourable to deal with PSOE is small and the resignation of Toni Roldán weakened it further. Additionally, Rivera will purge the few remaining dissident elements from party leadership. The Vox insults are unacceptable, but they have every reason to complain at Cs cynicism. Regardless I loathe the party's ideology and proposals, I understand their anger when they are treated by CS as servants who must hide when visits come home. Anyway I think PP, Cs and Vox will find the way to retain Madrid and Murcia.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Lumine on July 04, 2019, 05:57:41 PM

Right now it's very unlikely. At this point it's more a personal question for Albert Rivera than anything. The "social-liberal" faction favourable to deal with PSOE is small and the resignation of Toni Roldán weakened it further. Additionally, Rivera will purge the few remaining dissident elements from party leadership. The Vox insults are unacceptable, but they have every reason to complain at Cs cynicism. Regardless I loathe the party's ideology and proposals, I understand their anger when they are treated by CS as servants who must hide when visits come home. Anyway I think PP, Cs and Vox will find the way to retain Madrid and Murcia.

Why is there such personal loathing between Rivera and Sanchez? I never understood how it started, or when exactly things went to hell between the two of them after the 2016 PSOE-C's deal.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 05, 2019, 06:36:32 PM
Why is there such personal loathing between Rivera and Sanchez? I never understood how it started, or when exactly things went to hell between the two of them after the 2016 PSOE-C's deal.

It's a good question and there are different answers, depending on whom are you asking about. By the time of the PSOE-Cs deal Pedro Sánchez and Albert Rivera had a fluid relationship and that helped to overcome the difficulties in negotiations. PSOE and Cs acknowledged the deal was not easy to forge and both made concessions "for the common good". However, PSOE and Cs lacked a majority in Congress and the investiture of Sánchez failed due to the opposition of Podemos. The party led by Pablo Iglesias was excluded from negotiations because of the explicit veto opposed by Cs (and the implicit veto of the PSOE's establishment). In any case, Cs deemed the deal with PSOE as dead letter once the failure of the investiture led to new elections. June 2016 elections strengthened Rajoy and were disappointing to Iglesias and Rivera, while Sánchez retained the leadership of opposition by a narrow margin.

The relationshop between Sánchez and Rivera began to cool down since then, due to their differences on the Rajoy's investiture. Despite Rivera promised during the campaign he'd never support Rajoy, the Cs leader changed his mind for the sake of stability. Sánchez, however, remained firm in his opposition to Rajoy despite the heavy pressure on socialists to abstain. "No is No" was the motto of the socialist leader those days. Rivera accused Sánchez of blocking the country. Finally tensions within PSOE led to the replacement of Sánchez by a provisional leadership promoted by the party's establishment. Shortly after, Pedro Sánchez resigned his seat in parliament and his personal contact with Rivera was reduced to the minimum. When Pedro Sánchez won the leadership contest in May 2017, Rivera congratulated him via social networks. Days before Rivera warned Sánchez that he could not rely on Cs "to govern with nationalists". Despite Sánchez was regarded a moderate in his party when he won leadership by the first time, he campaigned on a leftist platform the second time, stating his willingness to reach deals with Podemos and peripheral nationalists. This turn was not motivated by ideological reasons, rather his motivations were tactical: seek the support of party grassroots against the establishment on the one hand, and counter the Podemos' threat from the left on the other hand. In a meeting that took place in December 2017, on the anniversary of the Constitution, Sánchez said: "I love Rivera, but he says I'm a Podemos supporter". Rivera replied to Sánchez: "you owe me an investiture". On the other hand, as the crisis in Catalonia worsened by Autumn 2017 and Cs rocketed in opinion polls, Sánchez hardened his stance against separatists. He agreed with Mariano Rajoy the implementation of article 155 limited in time and with immediate elections, against the wishes of hardliners in PP and Cs. Cs achieved a big success with Inés Arrimadas in the Catalan elections taking place on December 21, although it wasn't enough to govern the region.

 The no confidence motion against Rajoy in the following year broke up the personal relationship between Sánchez and Rivera. Both leaders agreed the court ruling in the PP's corruption scheme had to be the end of the Rajoy's career. However, Sánchez and Rivera had great differences on the purpose and the modus operandi. Sánchez argued his role as leader of the opposition entitled him to be the alternative candidate to Rajoy, while Rivera demanded a motion with an "instrumental candidate" aimed to call elections as soon as possible. Some people argue that Rivera felt outraged when Sánchez revealed details of private conversations between José Luis Äbalos (PSOE) and José Manuel Villegas (Cs) during their fierce debate in Congress. Namely, Sánchez revealed that Villegas advanced to Äbalos that Cs was not going to vote the 2019 budget, nor he expenditure ceiling the new government had to pass weeks later. Pedro Sánchez argues in his book 'Manual of resistance' that Rivera is not reliable and devotes himself to "intoxicate". The PSOE leader says Rivera didn't want to talk with him and derived contacts to their seconds in line, while beginning the narrative that Sánchez doesn't talk with Rivera because the aim of socialists is to deal with separatists. What is clear is the no confidence motion and its success outmaneuvered Rivera in a moment his party was leading the opinion polls. Since then, Rivera has been the most fierce opponent of Sánchez. The personal contact between both leaders is virtually non existent. After elections, the Cs leader attended meetings at La Moncloa visibly uncomfortable and he even rejected the last meeting offer a couple of days ago. Rivera's second in line José Manuel Villegas is the man in Cs who contacts the Sánchez's lieutenants José Luis Äbalos and Adriana Lastra.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 06, 2019, 06:51:37 AM
There is also the fact that Rivera is trying to (unsuccessfully) replace PP as the main party of the right, so they are avoiding deals with PSOE. Similarly, they have always been accused of having no principles, so maybe Cs is trying to overcorrect with their hard no to Pedro Sánchez?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Skye on July 07, 2019, 05:24:20 AM
Yesterday there was a disgusting insult exchange between Vox and Cs via Twitter

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/07/04/inenglish/1562233109_074015.html

Ah yes, I saw the tweet. Charming party. Classy.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: windjammer on July 07, 2019, 05:28:21 AM
Yesterday there was a disgusting insult exchange between Vox and Cs via Twitter

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/07/04/inenglish/1562233109_074015.html

Ah yes, I saw the tweet. Charming party. Classy.
I mean, it's not that insulting. Honestly I understand Vox is pissed.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 07, 2019, 06:55:25 AM
Yesterday there was a disgusting insult exchange between Vox and Cs via Twitter

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/07/04/inenglish/1562233109_074015.html

Ah yes, I saw the tweet. Charming party. Classy.
I mean, it's not that insulting. Honestly I understand Vox is pissed.

The Vox people has reasons to feel pissed at Cs hypocrisy, but the vulgar language of that tweet  is characteristic of bullies.

Cs annoys everybody, on the other hand. Yesterday a Cs delegation led by Inés Arrimadas was escorted out the Gay Pride parade in Madrid. The presence of Cs members provoked protests. There was a performance of people dressed in the Handmaid's Tale fashion (with orange robes) and a sit-in that caused a 1 1/2 delay in the parade. Some angry people screamed and insulted the Cs people and the oranges replied. The organizers said they called the police to prevent serious incidents and luckily nobody was injured. Obviously he motivation of protests is that Cs is making deals with Vox, a party that is openly against the LGTB movement. It's like Cs people was living in a parallel reality: oranges claim they make no deals with Vox, but they can't get their share of power without the far right. Politics is about making choices and oranges refuse to clarify their position. They want the Vox support without staining their hands in an open negotiation. Likewise they want to attend a gay parade as an organization, while they are dealing with a homophobic party through the back door. Nobody believes them because they are not credible.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Skye on July 07, 2019, 09:41:08 AM
Yesterday there was a disgusting insult exchange between Vox and Cs via Twitter

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/07/04/inenglish/1562233109_074015.html

Ah yes, I saw the tweet. Charming party. Classy.
I mean, it's not that insulting. Honestly I understand Vox is pissed.

The Vox people has reasons to feel pissed at Cs hypocrisy, but the vulgar language of that tweet  is characteristic of bullies.

Cs annoys everybody, on the other hand. Yesterday a Cs delegation led by Inés Arrimadas was escorted out the Gay Pride parade in Madrid. The presence of Cs members provoked protests. There was a performance of people dressed in the Handmaid's Tale fashion (with orange robes) and a sit-in that caused a 1 1/2 delay in the parade. Some angry people screamed and insulted the Cs people and the oranges replied. The organizers said they called the police to prevent serious incidents and luckily nobody was injured. Obviously he motivation of protests is that Cs is making deals with Vox, a party that is openly against the LGTB movement. It's like Cs people was living in a parallel reality: oranges claim they make no deals with Vox, but they can't get their share of power without the far right. Politics is about making choices and oranges refuse to clarify their position. They want the Vox support without staining their hands in an open negotiation. Likewise they want to attend a gay parade as an organization, while they are dealing with a homophobic party through the back door. Nobody believes them because they are not credible.

Funny you say that since I'm seeing Errejón tweeting about the issue criticizing the C's. He was openly an admirer of Hugo Chávez, and chavismo is a notoriously anti-LGBT movement.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 07, 2019, 02:53:50 PM
Funny you say that since I'm seeing Errejón tweeting about the issue criticizing the C's. He was openly an admirer of Hugo Chávez, and chavismo is a notoriously anti-LGBT movement.

Errejón and Iglesias have distanced themselves from chavismo. The leader of Más Madrid devoted his doctoral thesis to Evo Morales, btw. There is a lot of people in the left who admired Chávez years ago, including some personal friends of mine. They thought the deceased Venezuelan leader was a hope for Latin America and later changed their minds, particularly since the situation in Venezuela worsened with Maduro. I think everybody has the right to evolve and change. I was always skeptic about Chávez, but I try not to make recriminations to my friends saying "I told you". Likewise, I won't do it with Errejón when he's now positioned far from Venezuelan coordinates. He and his followers are unquestionably committed to women and LGTB rights. On the contrary, Vox is openly against the vindications of women and LGTB movements. Dealing with Vox in the present time represents a threat for their rights. It's legitimate to criticize Cs for that, especially when oranges claim they are a liberal party advocating LGTB rights. While I regret oranges were insulted, I understand the anger of many people. This year the Gay Pride was a massive outcry against the far right and the presence of Cs as political organization was rather unfathomable, since oranges made the conscious choice to ally with Vox through the back door. PP was more consistent and didn't attend the parade, although some PP members attended individually (which is great, because LGTB people voting for the right is represented). On the other hand, it's unacceptable that Arrimadas accused the openly gay Interior minister to have provoked the incidents. I concur with Grande Marlaska that deals with the far right have consequences: they affect the credibility of the Vox allies within the LGTB community



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 08, 2019, 10:11:00 PM
Madrid Central low emissions scheme reinstated on judge's orders. The rightwing council fails to reverse the policy of former mayor Manuela Carmena

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/07/08/inenglish/1562569693_221178.html

Quote
Fines for entering the Madrid Central low-emissions zone were reactivated at midnight on Sunday, after a judge overturned a decision by the new city council to suspend the scheme.

Mayor José Luis Martínez-Almeida, of the conservative Popular Party (PP), took the decision to temporarily halt the fines for vehicles that entered the central area, backed by his partners in City Hall, center-right Ciudadanos (Citizens), and the far-right party Vox, upon whose votes the PP needed to take power and will rely on to pass legislation.

However, the move caused widespread anger among residents of the Spanish capital, prompting a street protest last week as well as hitting the headlines around the world, with Madrid becoming the first major European city to actually roll back a measure aimed at improving pollution levels. A year ago, the Madrid Central project was instrumental in sparing Spain legal action by the European Commission before the EU Court of Justice. At that point, the Spanish capital had been exceeding European pollution thresholds for nearly a decade.

On Friday a Madrid court took the precautionary measure of suspending the mayor’s moratorium to, in the words of the judge, avoid pollution from rising “without any kind of controls.” City Hall has been given three days to present its defense for the move. The decision came in response to a lawsuit filed by a body known as Platform in Defense of Madrid Central, which is made up of more than 80 organizations, including environmental NGOs Ecologists in Action and Greenpeace (...)


Today Pedro Sánchez opens a new round of conversations with little expectations. Spanish PM will meet Pablo Casado (PP) and Pablo Iglesias (UP) today, while Albert Rivera (Cs) rejected days ago the Sánchez's offer to hold a meeting. Sánchez and Iglesias haven't moved from their initial positions. PSOE leader claims that differences on Catalonia and the veto of possible allies are reasons to oppose the entry of UP members in government. Socialists issued a proposal to form a minority government, offering Podemos a programmatic agreement. The main concession would be the possible appointment of independent ministers close to Podemos, or the appointment of UP members in the second level of government (secretaries of state, general directors). Pablo Iglesias stated the programmatic offer was insufficient and somewhat regressive with regards to the PSOE-UP budget deal. Iglesias said he would sign a document committing himself the official line in Catalonia and proposed the coalition government is voted alongside the investiture of Sánchez, promising that he would give up his pretensions if the investiture fails. Socialists rejected the offer, among other things because there is a high chance that Sánchez passes the investiture on the grounds of a coalition agreement. PNV, Compromís and PRC would not oppose to a PSOE-UP coalition and ERC seems to be willing to allow the investiture.

Yesterday morning PP and Cs signed a deal to govern the region of Madrid, ignoring Vox again and provoking the indignation of party leader Santiago Abascal and regional spokeswoman Rocío Monasterio. PP candidate Isabel Díaz Ayuso tweeted that she incorporated the Vox proposals to the agreement with Cs, as well she commits herself to fulfill and defend them. Monasterio deemed the PP-Cs agreement as "shameful", while Abascal demanded a three way meeting between him, Casado and Rivera. The Cs leader rejected the offer and proposed a meeting of the regional teams. Vox and Cs are playing another "chicken game". Regardless I think the attitude of Cs is cynic and hypocritical, maybe oranges will get what they want (power) given that Vox has few alternatives. In case the collision course continues, Madrid and Murcia could face new regional elections. Vox has little to gain in this scenario, but I doubt Cs will perform better in a repetition.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: seb_pard on July 10, 2019, 01:49:01 PM
The PSOE are playing with fire. Now the PNV are considering abstaining. Tremendous irresponsibility from the Socialists.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: mileslunn on July 10, 2019, 05:04:34 PM
Looks like a game of chicken between Podemos and PSOE seeing who will blink first.  Podemos is likely to lose seats so PSOE feels they have the upper hand, but an early election could precipitate a backlash and may not work in PSOE favour.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: seb_pard on July 10, 2019, 06:40:00 PM
Looks like a game of chicken between Podemos and PSOE seeing who will blink first.  Podemos is likely to lose seats so PSOE feels they have the upper hand, but an early election could precipitate a backlash and may not work in PSOE favour.
Also Enric Juliana (IMO the best political journalist in Spain) wrote that in case of a new election PP and Cs would establish alliances similars to the one in Navarra (Navarra Suma) in smaller provinces. That alone is enough to avoid a new election.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 10, 2019, 07:28:42 PM
Political deadlock increases the likelihood of fresh elections

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/07/09/inenglish/1562685123_273818.html

Quote
Long after Spaniards cast their votes in national, regional and local polls, political parties remain unable to reach governing deals, raising the chances of repeat elections. Most political actors describe the current atmosphere as devoid of loyalty, sincerity or trust, while politicians blame one another for a deadlock that could force an exhausted electorate to return to the ballot boxes ahead of time.

At the national level, a Tuesday meeting between acting Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez of the Socialist Party (PSOE) and Pablo Iglesias of the leftist Unidas Podemos evidenced the divide between two politicians who have been trying to reach a governing agreement since the elections of April 28 (...)

The Socialists – who won the election but fell well short of an overall majority – are still refusing to consider a coalition government with Unidas Podemos.

The most that Sánchez’s party will consider is the possibility of placing independent candidates “of renown” in a few ministerial positions. As an alternative, Podemos members could be offered mid-level government posts.

But Iglesias – whose Unidas Podemos came in fourth at the election with 42 seats, compared with the PSOE’s 123 lawmakers – views this as insufficient.

“What Spain needs is a leftist coalition government, and we hope to convince the PSOE to be more flexible,” said the Podemos leader following the meeting. “[Sánchez’s] position defending a single-party government goes against what citizens voted for. And I think that sooner or later they will rectify.”

The Socialists quickly issued a reply. “Today’s meeting did not bear fruit; it seems that Iglesias is more concerned about Cabinet appointments than about policymaking,” said Adriana Lastra, the party vice-secretary and congressional spokesperson for the PSOE (...)

Deadlock in Madrid

Spanish politics are not just blocked at the national level. A similar scenario is on display in key regions such as Madrid, where a government is yet to be formed following the May 26 election.

The Madrid regional assembly is about to hold an investiture session without any actual candidate to invest with power, and a repeat election will be held if no cross-party agreement emerges before early September.

On Tuesday, the far-right Vox party informed the regional assembly leader that its 12 lawmakers will not support Isabel Díaz Ayuso, the PP’s nominee to head the Madrid region, at a vote scheduled for Wednesday.

“We are not going to support the [governing] agreement between the PP and Ciudadanos because it is dead,” said Vox’s own candidate to lead the region, Rocío Monasterio. Ever since it burst onto the political scene at the Andalusian elections of December 2018, Vox has been propping up right-wing governments in several parts of Spain without officially joining the executives.

Without Vox’s support, Ayuso has 56 votes (from her own PP and from the center-right Ciudadanos) compared with 64 for the socialist candidate Ángel Gabilondo, who is backed by the PSOE, Unidas Podemos and the leftist Más Madrid group. Neither figure is enough for a majority.

Looks like a game of chicken between Podemos and PSOE seeing who will blink first.  Podemos is likely to lose seats so PSOE feels they have the upper hand, but an early election could precipitate a backlash and may not work in PSOE favour.
Also Enric Juliana (IMO the best political journalist in Spain) wrote that in case of a new election PP and Cs would establish alliances similars to the one in Navarra (Navarra Suma) in smaller provinces. That alone is enough to avoid a new election.

The possibility of a PP-Cs alliance in small-sized provinces in addition to further fragmentation in the left and lower turnout could be damaging, indeed. It is rumoured that Íñigo Errejón is planning to enter national politics, expanding Más Madrid ("Más País" would be the provisional name) and seeking regional alliances with parties like Compromís. It'd be a "New Left" party greatly inspired by AOC's "Green New Deal" that would compete against Pablo Iglesias and UP. A new election may precipitate the forming of this new alternative force. Errejón was great in the Madrid assembly, showing once again the huge contradictions of Cs regional leader Ugnacio Aguado. Cs is clearly the weakest link of the Spanish Right.

I read Enric Juliana regularly, but also the conservative analyst José Antonio Zarzalejos: he's former editor of ABC, very smart, dislikes Vox and distanced from Cs due to its cynic attitute towards the far right. Obviously Zarzalejos dislikes Podemos too and his analysis of the strategy followed by Sánchez and his spin doctor Iván Redondo is more favourable. I don't share his point of view, but it's interesting to read

https://blogs.elconfidencial.com/espana/notebook/2019-07-06/pedro-sanchez-ivan-redondo-psoe-antoni-gutierrez-rubi_2109295/


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: jaichind on July 10, 2019, 07:31:31 PM
But on the Right side would not a weaker VOX drag down the Pan-Right seat count by eating up Right votes but falling short of thresholds in many places to get seats in an new election ?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 10, 2019, 07:59:53 PM
Looks like a game of chicken between Podemos and PSOE seeing who will blink first.  Podemos is likely to lose seats so PSOE feels they have the upper hand, but an early election could precipitate a backlash and may not work in PSOE favour.
Also Enric Juliana (IMO the best political journalist in Spain) wrote that in case of a new election PP and Cs would establish alliances similars to the one in Navarra (Navarra Suma) in smaller provinces. That alone is enough to avoid a new election.

I don't think PP and Cs will establish an alliance. Cs is (unsuccessfully) trying to replace PP as the main party of the Spanish centre-right. Making an alliance would go against that objective.

At best you could get a partial deal for the Senate.

There is some precedent for this last option. Back in 2000, PSOE and IU did a deal where IU would drop out in several Spanish provinces for Senate and endorse PSOE. In practice, it didn't work because Aznar won a massive majority.

It is worth noting that Navarra Suma is also not the first regional alliance, especially not for Senate. Back in the Zapatero era, PSOE, ICV and ERC used to run together for Senate in Catalonia as the "Catalan Alliance for Progress" (Entesa Catalana de Progrés).

During the 2015 and 2019 elections (interestingly not 2016 though), Podemos, IU, Bildu and GBai ran together for Senate in Navarra as "Cambio-Aldaketa". The alliance's results were mixed though. In 2015 they beat out PSOE for the last Senator and came really close to beating UPN. However, in 2019 they didn't get any.

And if you care to go that back, it wouldn't even be the first alliance for Congress. Back in the massive PSOE wave of 1982, AP and UCD ran together in the Basque Country.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 10, 2019, 09:46:06 PM
Looks like a game of chicken between Podemos and PSOE seeing who will blink first.  Podemos is likely to lose seats so PSOE feels they have the upper hand, but an early election could precipitate a backlash and may not work in PSOE favour.
Also Enric Juliana (IMO the best political journalist in Spain) wrote that in case of a new election PP and Cs would establish alliances similars to the one in Navarra (Navarra Suma) in smaller provinces. That alone is enough to avoid a new election.

I don't think PP and Cs will establish an alliance. Cs is (unsuccessfully) trying to replace PP as the main party of the Spanish centre-right. Making an alliance would go against that objective.

At best you could get a partial deal for the Senate.

There is some precedent for this last option. Back in 2000, PSOE and IU did a deal where IU would drop out in several Spanish provinces for Senate and endorse PSOE. In practice, it didn't work because Aznar won a massive majority.
.

Don't take for granted that PP and Cs won't make alliances. The Spanish Right has experienced already the consequences of fragmentation under our electoral system. It's possible that Rivera has realized that Cs can't replace PP and is more open to take steps towards the re-foundation of the Big Common House. This is the wet dream of Aznar: reuniting the Spanish nationalist right currently splitted between PP, Cs and Vox is a mid-term strategic goal. While reunification won't happen tomorrow, Cs is already tied to PP and Vox. I think electoral alliances in Senate or small-sized provinces are feasible. They would help to pave the way for the final strategic goal. Also, as Entic Juliana writes today, the right will not let to happen a repetition of elections in Madrid. Vox is asserting its importance, while showing the hypocrisy of Cs. Rocio Monasterio is more clever than Ortega Smith, who was fooled by the promises of the new PP mayor of Madrid. Monasterio will get some concessions from PP and Cs. The astonishing Isabel Diaz Ayuso will likely be elected premier by September

While I understand to some extent the reluctance of Sánchez to have Pablo Iglesias in the government (I've read socialists fear a"Salvini effect", which may be exaggerated but it's not entirely baseless), PSOE has gone too far. Forcing the situation to the point that a new election seems inevitable may end in disaster. Also, making nods to Cs has revealed worthless. Despite the big pressure he's been facing, Rivera has gone too far in his strategy and will never leave the Colón Triumvirate. Cs has never been "liberal" or "progressive", it has been always a modernized version of the Spanish nationalist right. I hope that PSOE and UP find a way; although I don't feel very optimistic


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Skye on July 11, 2019, 03:04:49 AM
Looks like a game of chicken between Podemos and PSOE seeing who will blink first.  Podemos is likely to lose seats so PSOE feels they have the upper hand, but an early election could precipitate a backlash and may not work in PSOE favour.
Also Enric Juliana (IMO the best political journalist in Spain) wrote that in case of a new election PP and Cs would establish alliances similars to the one in Navarra (Navarra Suma) in smaller provinces. That alone is enough to avoid a new election.

I don't think PP and Cs will establish an alliance. Cs is (unsuccessfully) trying to replace PP as the main party of the Spanish centre-right. Making an alliance would go against that objective.


I mean, not if you treat it as a long term goal instead of something that must be achieved immediately. They already fell to the PP this year, and (correct me if I'm wrong) it doesn't really look like they are poised to beat them in a hypothetical election.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Beezer on July 11, 2019, 05:04:33 AM
I think I may have asked this before but did CIS ever come out with an evaluation of the social traits of voters in the most recent parliamentary election? Previous data did indicate that VOX voters were quite distinct from right-wing populist voters in the rest of Europe.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 11, 2019, 08:39:48 AM
I think I may have asked this before but did CIS ever come out with an evaluation of the social traits of voters in the most recent parliamentary election? Previous data did indicate that VOX voters were quite distinct from right-wing populist voters in the rest of Europe.

According to the last CIS survey, 61.8% of the Vox voters is male. Unlike similar parties in the rest of Europe, Vox has little support in low income households. On the contrary, Vox is the party with the highest level of support in high income families. 63.6% voted for PP in the 2016 elections.

 Previous surveys highlighted other traits. The Vox average voter has 46 years, similar age to the Cs voter, younger than PP (60) or PSOE (55) and older than Podemos (44). The highest level of support is in the age group ranging between 35 and 44, while the support among the older than 65 is low (the oldest vote for PP). The level of education is above average, corresponding to the socioeconomic profile. Regarding professional activities, Vox has a very strong support among militaries and policemen (this was evident looking at certain precinct results in general elections). Other professions trail at great distance, being managers and farmers the following in importance. Unsurprisingly, the Vox voter is much more concerned about separatism in Catalonia than the average Spanish voter.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 11, 2019, 10:46:32 PM
Pedro Sánchez wants constitutional changes to prevent deadlocks. Differences between PSOE and UP remain.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/07/11/inenglish/1562859165_143284.html

Quote
Following another failed meeting on Tuesday between Sánchez and Pablo Iglesias, head of the leftist Unidas Podemos group, the acting PM said he would call Iglesias on Thursday to try to kick-start “stalled” negotiations. While Sánchez considers Iglesias his natural ally, he refuses the latter’s demand for a coalition government.

“A government needs absolute internal cohesion, and on matters of state there are deep discrepancies with Unidos Podemos,” said Sánchez on the morning talk show Los Desayunos de TVE.

One of these differences is over the crisis in Catalonia. “They talk about political prisoners and the PSOE does not, we say there are politicians in prison. It is evident that there are deep differences and discrepancies that could paralyze a joint government with Unidas Podemos due to internal contradictions. My responsibility is not just to guarantee the investiture, but the stability of government as well,” said Sánchez, who is facing a congressional vote in two weeks to get officially back into the prime minister’s office. So far, he lacks enough support to be successful.

Podemos has already offered to accept in writing any conditions set out by the PSOE in connection with the handling of the Catalan crisis. But the response by a Socialist leader at party headquarters on Monday was that “people also sign mortgages, and later don’t pay.”

Rather than a coalition government, the acting PM is suggesting that Unidas Podemos could propose independent candidates to hold some cabinet positions. “Honestly, to me it seems like the most sensible and generous offer in the current situation,” he said.

Sánchez offered Iglesias to appoint Podemos ministers with a "technical profile", but not members of the party leadership. The Podemos leader rejected the offer saying he doesn't accept vetoes.

Regarding the deadlocks in Madrid and Murcia, Cs prefers new elections to open the way of deals with socialists. Oranges are also unwilling to make further concessions to Vox, either signing three-way agreements or modifications in the deals already signed with the PP. They simply expect that Vox compromises.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: mileslunn on July 12, 2019, 11:32:54 AM
Pedro Sánchez wants constitutional changes to prevent deadlocks. Differences between PSOE and UP remain.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/07/11/inenglish/1562859165_143284.html

Quote
Following another failed meeting on Tuesday between Sánchez and Pablo Iglesias, head of the leftist Unidas Podemos group, the acting PM said he would call Iglesias on Thursday to try to kick-start “stalled” negotiations. While Sánchez considers Iglesias his natural ally, he refuses the latter’s demand for a coalition government.

“A government needs absolute internal cohesion, and on matters of state there are deep discrepancies with Unidos Podemos,” said Sánchez on the morning talk show Los Desayunos de TVE.

One of these differences is over the crisis in Catalonia. “They talk about political prisoners and the PSOE does not, we say there are politicians in prison. It is evident that there are deep differences and discrepancies that could paralyze a joint government with Unidas Podemos due to internal contradictions. My responsibility is not just to guarantee the investiture, but the stability of government as well,” said Sánchez, who is facing a congressional vote in two weeks to get officially back into the prime minister’s office. So far, he lacks enough support to be successful.

Podemos has already offered to accept in writing any conditions set out by the PSOE in connection with the handling of the Catalan crisis. But the response by a Socialist leader at party headquarters on Monday was that “people also sign mortgages, and later don’t pay.”

Rather than a coalition government, the acting PM is suggesting that Unidas Podemos could propose independent candidates to hold some cabinet positions. “Honestly, to me it seems like the most sensible and generous offer in the current situation,” he said.

Sánchez offered Iglesias to appoint Podemos ministers with a "technical profile", but not members of the party leadership. The Podemos leader rejected the offer saying he doesn't accept vetoes.

Regarding the deadlocks in Madrid and Murcia, Cs prefers new elections to open the way of deals with socialists. Oranges are also unwilling to make further concessions to Vox, either signing three-way agreements or modifications in the deals already signed with the PP. They simply expect that Vox compromises.

The best way to solve this would be to switch to FTFP or AV as then you would have majority governments, but that seems unlikely.  But like Italy and Greece, any talk of bonus seats for largest party as that would help increase the odds of a majority while still retaining some proportionality.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 12, 2019, 06:44:20 PM
To be honest I would much rather have FPTP or AV (or a 2 round system with single member districts like France) than a majority bonus.

IMO a majority bonus is dumb. If you want majoritarian governments switch to FPTP and that at least gives you regional representation and makes individual MPs actually matter instead of being party drones.

We could easily cut Congress to like 15 members if we just weighed their votes!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 12, 2019, 07:45:32 PM

The best way to solve this would be to switch to FTFP or AV as then you would have majority governments, but that seems unlikely.  But like Italy and Greece, any talk of bonus seats for largest party as that would help increase the odds of a majority while still retaining some proportionality.

The best way for me is that parties learn to reach compromises and forge agreements. I prefer MMP or PR to FPTP or majority bonus, because I think the former reflect better the people's will than the latter.

Regarding negotiations between PSOE and UP,  I think the main problem is the mutual distrust between Sánchez and Iglesias.  They have differences on econony and the policy towards Catalonia, but they are not irreconcilable. It's the personal factor what makes agreement harder. A possible compromise solution is that PSOE gives up the pretension to govern alone and Iglesias gives up his pretension to be Deputy PM.

Pablo Iglesias will call a plebiscite in order the Podemos grassroots approve his coalition policy, while Andalusian leader Teresa Rodríguez says she won't vote because questions are biased. Rodríguez and her faction oppose a coalition government and favour programmatic agreements similar to the existing in Portugal between PS and the leftist parties.

In other news, Vox is demanding the Madrid regional government the names of LGTB activists that give talks on diversity at schools. It seems obvious Vox aims is to create a "black list" and intimidate activists. Regional government says there are no lists because talks are extracurricular, as well providing that information is illegal. Cs didn't say a word against.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 14, 2019, 05:14:38 PM
El Mundo has an extremely interesting article regarding how different groups of people voted. Most of the data isn't new but it's still interesting:

https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2019/07/14/5d28bc76fc6c83c84f8b45bc.html

Some notable stuff includes the vote by age. PSOE and especially PP get better results among older people (with a whopping 47% of PP voters being above 65 years old!), Cs and Vox get better results among the middle aged (35-54 roughly) and UP gets its best results among the young.

We also have data on the vote by ideology. Here the most notable thing is how Cs managed to beat PP among the "centre-right" (6/10) while PSOE won centrists (5/10). And unsurprisingly Vox did a lot of harm to PP among far right voters (7-10/10). Whereas Rajoy used to get huge percentages on that area (70% or more), PP only gets around 40% now.

Other data from the text of the article, organized by party:

PSOE
-52% of PSOE voters were women, compared to 55% in 2016
-PSOE has the lowest amount of voters with "Second stage of Secondary Education"* or university studies, though they have improved among this group compared to 2016
-1 in 3 PSOE voters were retired
-A majority of PSOE voters were either retired, unemployed or working class
-The average PSOE voter places himself as a 3.6/10 (where 1 is far left and 10 is far right)

*Second stage of Secondary education refers to people who completed all 12 years of schooling (in Spain only up to year 10 is mandatory), or who did an "intermediate level" vocational training program after year 10

PP
-47% of PP voters were above 65 years old
-53% of PP voters were women
-By education, a plurality of PP voters were people who had only completed primary school
-While Rajoy's electorate was dominated by the "old middle class" and "qualified working class"; Casado's electorate is richer, dominated by the "upper middle class" or the "new middle class"
-PP's voters place themselves as a 7/10

Cs
-Cs improved drastically among old voters (65+); although their voters are still mostly middle aged
-Cs performs slightly better among women than men
-Cs is the party with the most post-high school educated voters alongside UP, with 30% of Cs voters having a university degree.
-Cs performs well among the "unqualified working class" and "technicians and middle workers".
-Cs actually lost quite a bit among the unemployed
-The average Cs voter identifies as a 5.7/10; with people between 6 and 8 increasing and centrists and leftists going down

UP
-UP was the party with the biggest proportion of young voters (18-24) at 14% (compared to 9% for Spain at large)
-UP has more male voters than female voters
-Counter-intuitively, UP has the highest proportion of "upper class" and "upper middle class" voters; and actually improved among these voters. UP meanwhile went down among the "old middle class"
-UP, tied with Cs, had the highest proportion of students with post high school studies while it had the lowest proportion of voters with no education whatsoever
-1 in 10 UP voters were students, and UP went down quite a bit among the unemployed
-The average UP voter identifies as a 2.6/10

Vox
-Vox has the highest proportion of men and it's not even close, with 60% of Vox voters being male
-Vox performs best among the middle aged, with 30% of voters being between 35-44
-22% of Vox voters have post-high school education. This is higher than PSOE and PP but lower than Cs and UP
-Depending on the definition, up to 1 in 3 Vox voters can be considered working class
-26% of Vox voters consider themselves as far-right, compared to 3% for Spain at large.

So, here is my random profile of each party's "generic voter":

PSOE: Retired and relatively poor woman with only primary school education in rural Extremadura
PP: Retired and relatively wealthy woman with no education in rural Galicia
Cs: 50 year old middle ranked businesswoman with a college degree in Madrid
UP: The 22 year old son of a rich family, who lives and studies in Navarra
Vox: 40 year old working class man living in Murcia


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: DL on July 14, 2019, 07:00:15 PM
Why is Murcia so rightwing?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 15, 2019, 07:59:52 AM
Pedro Sánchez says the deal with Podemos is dead in water

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/07/15/inenglish/1563184342_660104.html

Quote
Pedro Sánchez of the Socialist Party (PSOE) has announced that his talks with the leftist Unidas Podemos are over, dimming his chances of securing the necessary majority of votes in Congress on July 22 and 23 (...)

On Monday, Sánchez told the Cadena SER radio network that bilateral talks are over after he learned of the content of a internal consultation that Iglesias is about to hold, asking grassroots members what Podemos’ position should be at the investiture vote next week.

The Iglesias plebiscite angered Sánchez,  who claims it's a "masquerade" aimed tp justify the opposition to his investiture. Podemos membership is asked to choose between two options, neither of them including the last offer made by Sánchez: incorporation of Podemos ministers with a "technical profile". Sánchez will try to meet this week with the leaders of the three main opposition parties (including Iglesias, likely Cs leader will refuse), in order to ask them to abstain. PP and Cs already said they won't do it. Investiture is doomed to fail, apparently



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Lumine on July 15, 2019, 10:10:07 AM
How typically irresponsible of Sánchez. It's hard to find his attitude believable regarding A. abstention of C's or PP, considering the man spent months on the whole "No es No" attitude towards Rajoy and even resigned so he wouldn't have to abstain, B. coalition, as - although I strongly dislike Podemos - is it certainly not unreasonable of Iglesias to demand actual participation instead of the "offer" made.

I get why Sánchez does what he does, but he really has no one to blame but himself if he gets humiliated on the first vote. Not to mention the levels of hypocrisy arguably surpass those of Casado, Rivera or Iglesias as well.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 15, 2019, 12:38:48 PM
How typically irresponsible of Sánchez. It's hard to find his attitude believable regarding A. abstention of C's or PP, considering the man spend months on the whole "No es No" attitude towards Rajoy and even resigned so he wouldn't have to abstain, B. coalition, as - although I strongly dislike Podemos - is it certainly not unreasonable of Iglesias to demand actual participation instead of the "offer" made.

I get why Sánchez does what he does, but he really has no one to blame but himself if he gets humiliated on the first vote. Not to mention the levels of hypocrisy arguably surpass those of Casado, Rivera or Iglesias as well.

Sánchez has a great deal of responsibility, that's obvious. However, regardless how questionable has been his attitude in the last months, he's not the only guilty party. The political stalemate is a consequence of the excessive polarization of Spanish politics (this climate dates back to the final days of Aznar and the Madrid bombings) and the lack of grandeur. The era of consensus building is long gone and (additionally) there is no tradition of coalition governments at national level. Political parties are engaged in a war on narratives that is not good for the country.

Regarding A, asking PP and Cs to abstain has the tactical purpose of making the opposition parties responsible for the country's stability and counter the narrative that Sánchez is selling Spain to separatists. While it's reasonable to argue the responsibility to form a government belongs to the leader of the winning party, the apocalyptic tone of Casado and Rivera portraying Sánchez as a traitor to the nation has been damaging and objectionable. So there is a point in asking them to abstain, in order the investiture of Sánchez does not rely on ERC or Bildu. In any case, there is a difference between PP and Cs. It's true that Sánchez championed the "No is No", but it's nonetheless true that he paid a heavy price for that and at the end most of his party abstained for the sake of stability. Casado and the PP can easily find pretexts, though. The case of Rivera and Cs is very different. Given the election results, a deal between PSOE and Cs would have been the obvious choice in normal circumstances. Obviously that's not the case, but apparently Sánchez still had some hopes that Cs turned to a position at least favourable to abstention. The reasons are the approachment between Sánchez and Macron, whom met in Paris immediately after the EP elections, and the tactical move of Manuel Valls in Barcelona. However Rivera didn't move from his initial position, despite he has been pressed from all sides.

It's strange that I have to say this about someone I never liked very much, but Manuel Valls made the only positive thing in this period by offering his votes to Ada Colau in exchange for nothing. The move was replicated by Ïñigo Errejón in Madrid, offering outside support for an alternative regional government formed by PSOE and Cs. Oranges made clear they preferred a separatist as mayor of Barcelona, as well as PP (despite corruption) and Vox (through the back door) to govern the key region of Madrid.

Regarding B, the arguments made by Sánchez are basically the differences on the Catalan question and that PSOE and UP are short of a majority. I think the main reason to oppose a formal coalition is that the perspective of having Pablo Iglesias as Deputy PM is very uncomfortable for Pedro Sánchez. It is certainly hard to imagine that a strong character like Iglesias can accommodate to a "modest" role within the government, in accordance to the weight of UP in parliament. Every statement made by the Podemos leader in that regard had the effect to exacerbate the mistrust of Sánchez. It's not possible to make coalition agreements when there exists mutual distrust, even less after the plebiscite called by Iglesias among his grassroots. Still. they are doomed to reach a compromise and it's entirely reasonable that UP demands to participate in the government. Given that Sánchez was moving from his initial position (minority government, confidence and supply agreement), my opinion is that UP should have been more flexible and patient in negotiations. For instance, accepting to discuss the political platform before discussing who enters the government, as certain PNV leader advised recently.

A repetition of elections could be a potential disaster and in neither case would solve the stalemate, even if the PSOE gets better results. Additionally it would damage the reputation of Sánchez in Europe.      


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 15, 2019, 01:52:52 PM
I remember I read an article a while back that pretty much claimed that in other countries with multi-party systems, the burden to form a government is in the government appointed by the informateur or whoever is in charge of coalition building. Meanwhile it seems that in Spain, the burden is not in the government to be formed, but rather in the opposition to not be an obstacle.

Regarding polarization, I would not blame polarization "per se", but rather the multi party system. Back in 2008 polarization was at record highs, and yet Zapatero had no problem whatsoever forming a government. Granted, CiU is a lot more reasonable than the current JxCat and same goes for ERC, but still; if instead of having PSOE at 123 and UP at 42; we had PSOE at something like 163 and UP at 2 (like back in 2008), Pedro Sánchez would probably be PM by now (either that or he fails because of the Catalans)

Also, regarding a snap election, it is possible that PSOE and Sánchez are not looking forward to having an easier path to forming a government, but instead trying to kill off Podemos. A PP-Cs-Vox government is a very far away posibility. Imagine if we got a 2nd election and PSOE held steady at 28% while UP went down to something like 10%.

Finally, there have been moves by Errejón that seem to signal that he wants to create his own party and run. I doubt that will go anywhere, but if it does that also hurts UP by a lot.

I do have to say, even as someone that generally supports Sánchez, that he is probably in the wrong here, though UP has also been extremely inflexible with their demands.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Skye on July 15, 2019, 02:05:51 PM
The way I see it, granting Iglesias far more power than he deserves would be far too risky for Sánchez, so he's willing to bet for another election where this:

Imagine if we got a 2nd election and PSOE held steady at 28% while UP went down to something like 10%.

happens, or something like PSOE 33-UP 10, which wouldn't be as far fetched since PSOE is polling really well ATM. Of course that's super risky as well because the right could theoretically rebound to its late 2018 polls where the PP-C's-Vox vote was getting dangerously close to 50%.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Oryxslayer on July 15, 2019, 02:38:17 PM
The way I see it, granting Iglesias far more power than he deserves would be far too risky for Sánchez, so he's willing to bet for another election where this:


Spanish politics is very personality driven and rivalrous (I have once said its worse then GoT's infighting)  so giving Iglesias such a high perch would be a bad idea from the start. That is probably PSOE's sticking point, they would be happy with a coalition but Iglesias would have to sit out or get a background office, a bad deal for Podemos. Of course this all would be made easier if the C's deal was still on the table, the threat of that would have allowed Podemos to no doubt back a minority govt. But once again rivalries threw that possibility out the window. 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 16, 2019, 01:25:24 AM
I remember I read an article a while back that pretty much claimed that in other countries with multi-party systems, the burden to form a government is in the government appointed by the informateur or whoever is in charge of coalition building. Meanwhile it seems that in Spain, the burden is not in the government to be formed, but rather in the opposition to not be an obstacle.

If we go to elections in November, the main responsible for that failure will be Pedro Sánchez. The PSOE leader was commissioned by the king to form a government "as soon as possible". Once you accept the commission, it's reasonable to expect that you will try your best to succeed. So the main guilty is always Sánchez, regardless the narrative from La Moncloa.


Regarding polarization, I would not blame polarization "per se", but rather the multi party system.

The multiparty system is the consequence of the people's will. The composition of the Congress reflects a clear mandate: people is demanding that parties negotiate and reach agreements. It's unlikely that we go back to the two-party system. The political stalemate shows that parties are failing to meet the hopes of their voters. In the eventuality of a snap election, the disappointment within the Left is likely to reflect in lower turnout.

Finally, there have been moves by Errejón that seem to signal that he wants to create his own party and run. I doubt that will go anywhere, but if it does that also hurts UP by a lot.


'Más País' represents my last hope to have a national party somewhat close to my views, so I wish Errejón will go somewhere with his project. Given the electoral results in Madrid, I'd say the Podemos founder has a base of support strong enough to win seats in Congress. However, he needs to build an organization in Madrid before extending to the rest of the country. Errejón has an excellent relationship with Mónica Oltra (Compromís), but he needs more time to build a network of regional alliances. A snap election in November is too early for Errejón, but if he runs I have no doubt he will come back to Congress and damage UP.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 17, 2019, 02:20:45 PM
While the national government formation process has been the one taking up everyone's attention, for obvious reasons, there have also been many problems at the regional level, much more than usual (remember Spain has only ever had 1 repeat regional election; Madrid 2003; and even that one required PP literally bribing 2 regional PSOE MPs). Anyways, here is how government formation at the regional level looks like:

Governments already formed and sworn in

Castille-La Mancha (PSOE Majority)
Extremadura (PSOE majority)
Cantabria (PRC-PSOE coalition)
Castille-Leon (PP-Cs coalition)
Asturias (PSOE minority with external IU support)
Canary Islands (PSOE-NCa-ASG-UP coalition)
Balearic Islands (PSOE-Més-UP coalition)

Special cases

Ceuta: PP minority elected by default as it's the largest party. Presumably they will be propped up by Vox if needed but no formal deal was done (in fact Vox voted for themselves, not for the PP mayor)
Melilla: Cs mayor elected with literally only 1 seat; propped up by the local muslim party (CpM) and PSOE

No government making votes done yet

Aragon: After Cs rejected a PSOE-Cs government and centrist regionalist PAR rejected a right wing PP-Cs-Vox-PAR government, it seemed the only viable option was PAR defecting and supporting a PSOE-ChA-PAR-Podemos-IU left wing government. PSOE has ruled both with ChA-Podemos-IU and with PAR in the past, so getting both is not imposssible. PSOE and PAR have already reached a deal. It is also very likely that they will reach a deal with ChA. At that point they need IU to support them and Podemos to abstain (or viceversa).

The government formation vote is scheduled for the 30th or 31st of July

Navarra: PSOE, IU, Podemos and big tent Basque nationalist GBai (which functions as a sort of PNV branch in Navarra) have reached a government deal. However they need Bildu to abstain, and PSOE absolutely refuses to negotiate anything with Bildu. So it's unclear whether Bildu will give them a free pass or not.

No government formation vote has been scheduled yet. The deadline for a government to be formed is the 26th of August

Places with already failed government votes

La Rioja: Here PSOE and UP theoretically have enough seats for a bare 1 seat majority. However during negotiations, IU and Podemos (1 seat each) split due to differences regarding coalition building. Just like nationally, Podemos requested seats in the regional executive (IU did not). The first vote failed yesterday. The second vote is scheduled for tomorrow, and there has been a lot of pressure upon the lone Podemos MP, even from her own party, to vote yes. However it's unclear what will happen. The situation is remarkably similar to the national one

Murcia: Here PP and Cs negotiated a coalition deal, and then PP offered to negotiate a separate deal with Vox; very similar to Andalucía. However, Vox rejected these conditions this time and requested a 3 way negotiation with Cs, which Cs categorically refuses. Unlike Podemos, Vox is not requesting any regional executive seats but they do request a direct negotiation with Cs. In the end, Vox voted against the PP-Cs government alongside the left.

Deadline for a successful government vote: 2nd of September

Madrid: The exact same scenario as Murcia (Vox demands a 3 way negotiation with PP and Cs, Cs refuses) except with more attention nationally because of course (it's Madrid after all). The only difference is that instead of a proper government vote, in Madrid they had a "Candidate-less government vote", just to start the clock to count down.

Deadline for a successful government vote: 10th of September

I believe Aragon will almost certainly see a successful government. Navarra is iffy, but I believe Bildu will cave. Finally, I believe internal pressure will force Podemos in La Rioja to cave, even if it may set a bad precedent nationally (though the vote disparity is much larger than nationally and Podemos made some ridiculous demands in La Rioja). The toughest ones to predict are the 2 involving Vox in my opinion.

Of course it is possible that no one caves, whether nationally or regionally and we end up with like 5 separate regional elections in different weeks in Autumn, alongside a national one as well. Sounds fun for political nerds (read: Atlas forum) but I imagine Spaniards will end up tired lol


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 17, 2019, 05:10:28 PM

Canary Islands (PSOE-NCa-ASG-UP coalition)


Ceuta: PP minority elected by default as it's the largest party. Presumably they will be propped up by Vox if needed but no formal deal was done (in fact Vox voted for themselves, not for the PP mayor)

Podemos and IU ran separately in the Canary Islands, so UP is not in the coalition. The electoral coalition led by Noemi Santana was called "Sí Podemos Canarias" and incorporated Podemos,  Sí Se Puede (local party based in Tenerife founded years before Podemos) and Equo. IU ran in its own and failed to win seats. The members of regional government are:

Premier: Ángel Víctor Torres (PSOE)
Deputy Premier, Finance and Planning: Román Rodríguez (NC)
Economy, Knowledge and Employment: Carolina Darias (PSOE)
Public Works, Transport and Housing: Sebastián Franquis (PSOE)
Ecologic Transition: José Antonio Valbuena (PSOE)
Healthcare: Teresa Cruz (PSOE)
Education, Universities, Culture and Sports: María José Guerra (Ind)
Agriculture, Farming and Fisheries: Alicia Vanoostende (PSOE)
Public Administration, Justice and Security: Julio Pérez (PSOE)
Social Affairs, Youth, Equality and Diversity: Noemi Santana (Podemos)
Tourism: Yaiza Castilla (ASG)

It's worth noting that CC lost two historical strongholds: the Cabildo of Tenerife and the local government of the island's capital Santa Cruz. In both cases thanks to a deal between PSOE and Cs, with the outsie support of Podemos. The Cs councilors in the Cabildo and the Santa Cruz town hall have been suspended provisionally by party leadership. Cs does not believe anymore in "democratic regeneration", apparently

The PP mayor-president of Ceuta rejects categorically deals with Vox. Possibly he will be propped up by PSOE.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 18, 2019, 03:21:26 PM
The results of the Podemos consultation have been publicized this evening. Unsurprisingly 70% supported the option backed by Pablo Iglesias, that is "integrated coalition without exclusions". The second option was a "government designed by the PSOE, collaboration at administrative levels subordinate to the government and programmatic agreement". The wording of the second proposal angered Pedro Sánchez, who claimed having offered the incorporation of Podemos ministers with a "technocratic" profile (implying the exclusion of Pablo Iglesias and other members of party leadership).

More importantly, this morning Pedro Sánchez made abundantly clear that Pablo Iglesias is the main obstacle for a deal between PSOE and Podemos. The acting PM was crystal clear in an interview with journalist Antonio Ferreras. Sánchez said he cannot accept the presence of Iglesias due to the deep differences in affairs of state, namely the crisis in Catalonia. "Pablo Iglesias talks about political prisoners (referring to separatist leaders awaiting judgment) and I need a Deputy PM who defends the Spanish democracy". The ruling of the Supreme Court is expected to be in October and the acting PM fears turbulence in Catalonia, so he wants inner unity in his cabinet to face the situation. Another reason argued by Sánchez is mutual distrust, referring to some statements made by Iglesias remarking the presence of Podemos is necessary to ensure the compliance of agreements. Sánchez also claims that all the conversations between him and Iglesias have been focused in the re partition of ministries (Iglesias would have demanded Finance, Labour or Communication). Despite these words, Sánchez reiterates his coalition offer consisting in the incorporation of "skilled" Podemos members. However, he warned the offer expires after the investiture vote. Sánchez also reiterates his appeal to PP and Cs to abstain allowing the investiture. No doubt Pedro Sánchez is playing strong.

In other news: "Spain will propose economy minister as new IMF chief if backed by EU"

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/07/18/inenglish/1563435731_182529.html

Quote
The Spanish government is ready to nominate its economy minister, Nadia Calviño, to head the International Monetary Fund (IMF) as long as she receives enough support from other European countries.

The EU’s proposal to put current IMF chief Christine Lagarde at the helm of the European Central Bank has opened up a race for her succession. EU countries want to put forward a single candidate to increase their chances of having a European in control of the Washington-based organization (...)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 19, 2019, 09:12:42 AM
Socialists are now open to the incorporation of any Podemos member to a coalition government, with the sole exception of Pablo Iglesias. This means the incorporation of people with a "political profile" like the second-in-line Irene Montero is possible now, while the previous offer to Podemos was limited to people with a "technical profile"

200 artists make a plea for a progressive government

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/07/19/inenglish/1563525487_105458.html

Quote
  A group of Spanish artists has signed a manifesto urging the Socialist Party (PSOE) and Unidas Podemos to reach a governing deal in order to prevent a repeat election.

 
Javier Bardem and 200 other artists make plea for a progressive government in Spain
With talks between the Socialists and Podemos at a deadlock, a group of writers and performers has signed a manifesto demanding a deal to avoid a repeat election.

The petition is signed by more than 200 personalities from the world of culture, including actor Javier Bardem (No Country for Old Men, The Sea Inside), writer Almudena Grandes (The Ages of Lulu, The Wind From the East) and film director Iciar Bollaín (Take My Eyes, Flowers From Another World) (...)

The manifesto states: “The April elections opened up the possibility that a progressive majority could reach an understanding to govern together. The people came out in force to send a clear message: We don’t want the far right anywhere near the mechanisms of power. But the general enthusiasm after the elections is dissipating as the PSOE and Unidas Podemos struggle to reach an agreement in government negotiations.”

“No party won a big enough majority to govern alone and polls have since shown that the people prefer for there to be an agreement between progressive parties. Now is the time to make a deal, come to an understanding, reach an agreement. Now is the time to make policy for the people,” the manifesto adds.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: jaichind on July 19, 2019, 10:25:06 AM
Socialists are now open to the incorporation of any Podemos member to a coalition government, with the sole exception of Pablo Iglesias. This means the incorporation of people with a "political profile" like the second-in-line Irene Montero is possible now, while the previous offer to Podemos was limited to people with a "technical profile"

200 artists make a plea for a progressive government

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/07/19/inenglish/1563525487_105458.html

Quote
  A group of Spanish artists has signed a manifesto urging the Socialist Party (PSOE) and Unidas Podemos to reach a governing deal in order to prevent a repeat election.

 
Javier Bardem and 200 other artists make plea for a progressive government in Spain
With talks between the Socialists and Podemos at a deadlock, a group of writers and performers has signed a manifesto demanding a deal to avoid a repeat election.

The petition is signed by more than 200 personalities from the world of culture, including actor Javier Bardem (No Country for Old Men, The Sea Inside), writer Almudena Grandes (The Ages of Lulu, The Wind From the East) and film director Iciar Bollaín (Take My Eyes, Flowers From Another World) (...)

The manifesto states: “The April elections opened up the possibility that a progressive majority could reach an understanding to govern together. The people came out in force to send a clear message: We don’t want the far right anywhere near the mechanisms of power. But the general enthusiasm after the elections is dissipating as the PSOE and Unidas Podemos struggle to reach an agreement in government negotiations.”

“No party won a big enough majority to govern alone and polls have since shown that the people prefer for there to be an agreement between progressive parties. Now is the time to make a deal, come to an understanding, reach an agreement. Now is the time to make policy for the people,” the manifesto adds.



Would this approach even further anger Pablo Iglesias?  It is like saying "we will work with anyone but you personally". Now it is not even about ideology but personality.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 19, 2019, 10:52:41 AM
Urgent news: Pablo Iglesias steps aside and gives up his pretension to be  in the government, providing there are no more exclusions and UP can select its prople getting a share proportional to its size. "I won't be the pretext for the PSOE to prevent a left-wing coalition government"

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/07/19/actualidad/1563550732_115972.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: bigic on July 19, 2019, 11:50:07 AM
How much of the time spent on arguing between PSOE and Podemos could be used for negotiations with minor parties?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 20, 2019, 05:51:06 AM
How much of the time spent on arguing between PSOE and Podemos could be used for negotiations with minor parties?

In case PSOE and Podemos reach an agreement, Pedro Sánchez could pass with relative ease the second investiture vote taking place on Thursday next week. I guess the PSOE will have to carry out parallel talks with PNV and Compromís, but both parties are willing to reach an agreement. On the other hand, ERC and Bildu spokepersons stated they won't be an obstacle for the investiture, which can be interpreted as a likely abstention. JxCAT is expected to vote against, following instructions from Puigdemont.

A possible investiture scenario, providing the negotiations against the clock between PSOE and UP are successful, could be:

173 in favour: PSOE, UP, PNV, Compromís, PRC
19 abstentions: ERC, EH Bildu
158 against: PP, Cs, Vox, JxCAT, CC, UPN

Simple majority (enough to pass the second vote)





Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 20, 2019, 05:53:15 AM
According to journalist Enric Juliana, Dilma Rousseff contacted Iglesias and advised him not to carry the responsibility for a new election on his shoulder, as the consequences would be devastating for him and Podemos. In other words, Iglesias gave up to prevent the suicide of his organization

https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20190720/463591241649/el-mensaje-de-dilma-rousseff.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: windjammer on July 20, 2019, 11:12:06 AM
According to journalist Enric Juliana, Dilma Rousseff contacted Iglesias and advised him not to carry the responsibility for a new election on his shoulder, as the consequences would be devastating for him and Podemos. In other words, Iglesias gave up to prevent the suicide of his organization

https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20190720/463591241649/el-mensaje-de-dilma-rousseff.html
Why is Dilma Rousseff relevant to Spain?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: brucejoel99 on July 20, 2019, 12:34:49 PM
According to journalist Enric Juliana, Dilma Rousseff contacted Iglesias and advised him not to carry the responsibility for a new election on his shoulder, as the consequences would be devastating for him and Podemos. In other words, Iglesias gave up to prevent the suicide of his organization

https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20190720/463591241649/el-mensaje-de-dilma-rousseff.html
Why is Dilma Rousseff relevant to Spain?

Apparently, his Chief of Staff, Pablo Gentili, & her are close.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 20, 2019, 10:55:16 PM
According to journalist Enric Juliana, Dilma Rousseff contacted Iglesias and advised him not to carry the responsibility for a new election on his shoulder, as the consequences would be devastating for him and Podemos. In other words, Iglesias gave up to prevent the suicide of his organization

https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20190720/463591241649/el-mensaje-de-dilma-rousseff.html
Why is Dilma Rousseff relevant to Spain?

Apparently, his Chief of Staff, Pablo Gentili, & her are close.

Pablo Gentili is an Argentinian professor who worked  for Lula and Dilma before, as well he has been adviser for the governments of Colombia and Argentina. Gentili was hired recently by Pablo Iglesias, who wanted someone experienced to work alongside the Podemos' young cadres. Possibly Dilma was informed of the situation by Gentili and contacted Pablo Iglesias. Apparently she advised the Podemos leader to keep cool. Iglesias is clever and got the message.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 21, 2019, 08:35:55 AM
Negotiations are being held in a climate of secretiveness. The PSOE team is headed by Deputy PM Carmen Calvo alongside parliamentary spokeswoman Adriana Lastra and Finance minister María Jesús Montero. The UP team is headed by Pablo Echenique and Irene Montero. The chicken game between Sánchez and Iglesias that ended last Friday have forced a sleepless negotiation against the clock. However, the budget settlement between PSOE and UP provides a basis for programmatic agreement. Actually both parties had prepared the documents for negotiations since months ago, but their staffs have been focused exclusively on communication strategies and narratives. UP nominations and office sharing would be the major obstacles. The share of UP ministries could range between 3 and 5 or 6, depending if it's calculated by seats in parliament or by popular vote (the PSOE-UP ratio is 3:1 and 2;1, respectively)



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/21/spain-socialist-government-sanchez-iglesias-catalonia

Quote
  Spain is likely to install a leftwing government this week after Pablo Iglesias, leader of the anti-austerity Podemos, agreed to step aside to enable a coalition between his party and the Socialist Workers’ party, led by Pedro Sánchez.

Months of wrangling since April’s general election came to a head last week when Sánchez said he was prepared to form a coalition on the condition that Iglesias did not have a ministerial position. He said Iglesias was “the principal obstacle” to agreeing on a coalition, adding that other Podemos members would be offered cabinet positions. Among those tipped to join the government is Irene Montero, the party’s number two, who is also Iglesias’s partner.

“We are convinced we are going to reach an agreement in response to the millions of people who voted on 28 April for a progressive government,” Adriana Lastra, the Socialist party spokeswoman, said.

“Over the next few days we will work with discretion and loyalty with the aim that next week the country will have a functioning government,” she added. “We are going to talk about the program and the reforms the country needs.”(...)

Assuming it all goes ahead, the coalition government will have to deal with a country that is still hauling itself out of recession. Overall unemployment stands at around 14%, and more than twice that for 18-24-year-olds. Meanwhile, there is growing unrest in Madrid and Barcelona over soaring rents, street crime and over-tourism, not to mention the perennial and intractable Catalan question.

But Sánchez is ambitious, both for himself and his country, which he wants to position as a leading force in southern Europe. After years of stagnation, Spain is now waiting to see if his campaign slogan “make it happen” has any substance.

Feminism, decent employment and climate crisis will be the focuses of the investiture speech, reports El País

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/07/20/actualidad/1563647948_991843.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 22, 2019, 06:20:18 PM
The first day of the investiture debate was depressing. Cs leader Albert Rivera is was particularly disastrous: overacting, deranged and resorting to conspiracy theories in the worst populist fashion. According to Rivera, Sánchez has a plan to destroy Spain. Currently the Cs leader is to the right of Casado and not so far from Vox, something like a modern José Antonio Primo de Rivera. Hearing his speech today, it's not difficult to understand why an increasing number of people is running away from the party. The relationship between Pedro Sánchez and Pablo Iglesias is strained, which is unsurprising. The Podemos leader showed restraint in his first reply to Sanchez, trying not to burn the bridges, but it became evident the negotiation is ran aground. Sánchez is not very enthusiastic with the idea of a coalition, apparently. Someone believes elections in November is not a bad idea.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/07/22/inenglish/1563807689_858287.html

Quote
 Spain’s acting prime minister, Pedro Sánchez, on Monday urged Congress to entrust him with office so that Spain “does not end up deadlocked.” (...)

In a two-hour address, Sánchez discussed the challenges that he will be tackling as the new leader of Spain: “Unemployment and precarious jobs, the digital revolution, the climate emergency, the discrimination of women and the future of Europe.” He also defended constitutional reforms to prevent future situations of post-election deadlock (...)
Towards the end of his speech, Sánchez appealed directly to Unidas Podemos: “Dealmaking is not easy, but we are united by the promise of the left.”

Podemos, which was aiming for a coalition government with the Socialists, says that so far Sánchez has only offered them “symbolic responsibilities” within his future government. The latter holds that a joint government with Podemos would be impossible due to irreconcilable differences over critical matters such as the situation in Catalonia (...)
 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Lumine on July 22, 2019, 10:18:07 PM
The first day of the investiture debate was depressing. Cs leader Albert Rivera is was particularly disastrous: overacting, deranged and resorting to conspiracy theories in the worst populist fashion. According to Rivera, Sánchez has a plan to destroy Spain. Currently the Cs leader is to the right of Casado and not so far from Vox, something like a modern José Antonio Primo de Rivera. Hearing his speech today, it's not difficult to understand why an increasing number of people is running away from the party. The relationship between Pedro Sánchez and Pablo Iglesias is strained, which is unsurprising. The Podemos leader showed restraint in his first reply to Sanchez, trying not to burn the bridges, but it became evident the negotiation is ran aground. Sánchez is not very enthusiastic with the idea of a coalition, apparently. Someone believes elections in November is not a bad idea.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/07/22/inenglish/1563807689_858287.html

Quote
 Spain’s acting prime minister, Pedro Sánchez, on Monday urged Congress to entrust him with office so that Spain “does not end up deadlocked.” (...)

In a two-hour address, Sánchez discussed the challenges that he will be tackling as the new leader of Spain: “Unemployment and precarious jobs, the digital revolution, the climate emergency, the discrimination of women and the future of Europe.” He also defended constitutional reforms to prevent future situations of post-election deadlock (...)
Towards the end of his speech, Sánchez appealed directly to Unidas Podemos: “Dealmaking is not easy, but we are united by the promise of the left.”

Podemos, which was aiming for a coalition government with the Socialists, says that so far Sánchez has only offered them “symbolic responsibilities” within his future government. The latter holds that a joint government with Podemos would be impossible due to irreconcilable differences over critical matters such as the situation in Catalonia (...)
 

Yeah, I had the chance to follow most of the debate and it was quite a mess. I do have a soft spot for C's, but even if Rivera scored some hits he sounded like a maniac with the "Plan Sánchez" nonsense and his absurdly aggressive tone.

Sánchez - though a decent orator - doesn't do himself any favors on account of his arrogance and blatant inconsistency, and Abascal was predictable and perhaps even forgettable.

I was far more impressed with Casado (who managed to sound measured and about a thousand times more mature than Rivera) and particularly with Iglesias, who probably won the day. If Sánchez wants to be President he can't expect every single other party to comply in exchange for nothing, and Podemos is most certainly not being treated fairly.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Skye on July 23, 2019, 03:43:58 AM
I mean, it's not as if Sánchez didn't beg them to do as he wanted while driving everyone through the mud. Dunno how the backstage negotiations are going but the speeches were disastrous.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 23, 2019, 07:05:58 AM
Yeah it seems unlikely that a government will happen, and Sánchez will be the most blamed for the 2nd election if it does happen.

Certainly the polls with PSOE in the low-mid 30s are not to be believed. Most likely the right also falls short and we end up in a bigger mess


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 23, 2019, 08:16:31 AM
Final result of the first round of votes (Majority needed: 176)

Yes: 124 (PSOE, PRC)
Abstain: 52 (UP, PNV, Bildu, Compromis)
No: 170 (PP, Cs, Vox, ERC, JxCat, CC, NA+)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on July 23, 2019, 08:20:06 AM
Yeah it seems unlikely that a government will happen, and Sánchez will be the most blamed for the 2nd election if it does happen.

Certainly the polls with PSOE in the low-mid 30s are not to be believed. Most likely the right also falls short and we end up in a bigger mess

Yeah, I just am watching in amazement at how bad Sanchez is at politics. He may very well be booting one of the best situations for the left in Europe in a long while, all for no obvious reason other than a dramatically inflated sense of confidence. New elections will bury UP and strengthen PP, which strikes me as quite a lot worse for Sanchez than Podemos today. Amazing.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 23, 2019, 08:48:27 AM
Yeah it seems unlikely that a government will happen, and Sánchez will be the most blamed for the 2nd election if it does happen.

Certainly the polls with PSOE in the low-mid 30s are not to be believed. Most likely the right also falls short and we end up in a bigger mess

Yeah, I just am watching in amazement at how bad Sanchez is at politics. He may very well be booting one of the best situations for the left in Europe in a long while, all for no obvious reason other than a dramatically inflated sense of confidence. New elections will bury UP and strengthen PP, which strikes me as quite a lot worse for Sanchez than Podemos today. Amazing.

My theory is that Sanchez would rather crush UP and present himself as the uncontested leader of the Spanish left than risk UP eventually overtaking PSOE. Even if that means he won't be PM anymore


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: windjammer on July 23, 2019, 09:28:21 AM
I fully understand Sanchez honestly. He has no majority anyway. What is the point if you cannot govern if you are trapped by terrorists (Bildu) and independentist (ERC)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 23, 2019, 11:44:08 AM
Final result of the first round of votes (Majority needed: 176)

Yes: 124 (PSOE, PRC)
Abstain: 52 (UP, PNV, Bildu, Compromis)
No: 170 (PP, Cs, Vox, ERC, JxCat, CC, NA+)

The original intention of UP was to vote "no", but all the deputies except Irene Montero abstained. UP decided to give a last chance to the PSOE, while Deputy PM Carmen Calvo left the doors ipen in an appearance in Congress this morning. The reason why Montero'vvoted "no" is that she cast her vote telematically and early in the morning, as she stayed home caring her children (Pablo Iglesias is the father). UP decided to change the vote in a later meeting. Also, the tone of ERC spokesman Gabriel Rufián was more measured than it's usual in him. It's still possible that ERC abstains if PSOE and UP reach a last minute agreement, and they have already the abstention of Basque nationalist parties. Despite this result, the chances are slightly higher today and the general ambience is not as grim as tonight. Still, if agreement is possible and we have a government, the mutual distrust between coalition partners won't be easy to manage.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on July 23, 2019, 11:53:56 AM
I fully understand Sanchez honestly. He has no majority anyway. What is the point if you cannot govern if you are trapped by terrorists (Bildu) and independentist (ERC)

The irony of course is that Sanchez is drawing the line at separatism despite the fact that Spanish politics is now such that no Socialist government can ever exist without the at least tacit support of separatists. Coalitional politics is hard, but Sanchez is making this harder than it needs to be.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Oryxslayer on July 23, 2019, 12:19:11 PM
The first day of the investiture debate was depressing. Cs leader Albert Rivera is was particularly disastrous: overacting, deranged and resorting to conspiracy theories in the worst populist fashion. According to Rivera, Sánchez has a plan to destroy Spain. Currently the Cs leader is to the right of Casado and not so far from Vox, something like a modern José Antonio Primo de Rivera. Hearing his speech today, it's not difficult to understand why an increasing number of people is running away from the party. The relationship between Pedro Sánchez and Pablo Iglesias is strained, which is unsurprising. The Podemos leader showed restraint in his first reply to Sanchez, trying not to burn the bridges, but it became evident the negotiation is ran aground. Sánchez is not very enthusiastic with the idea of a coalition, apparently. Someone believes elections in November is not a bad idea.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/07/22/inenglish/1563807689_858287.html

Quote
 Spain’s acting prime minister, Pedro Sánchez, on Monday urged Congress to entrust him with office so that Spain “does not end up deadlocked.” (...)

In a two-hour address, Sánchez discussed the challenges that he will be tackling as the new leader of Spain: “Unemployment and precarious jobs, the digital revolution, the climate emergency, the discrimination of women and the future of Europe.” He also defended constitutional reforms to prevent future situations of post-election deadlock (...)
Towards the end of his speech, Sánchez appealed directly to Unidas Podemos: “Dealmaking is not easy, but we are united by the promise of the left.”

Podemos, which was aiming for a coalition government with the Socialists, says that so far Sánchez has only offered them “symbolic responsibilities” within his future government. The latter holds that a joint government with Podemos would be impossible due to irreconcilable differences over critical matters such as the situation in Catalonia (...)
 

So I got a depressing theory about Rivera, a theory that stems from his precarious position politically right now. C's right now, touches almost every part of the spectrum, but is a master of no particular position besides centralism, and as such is vulnerable. Now, this problem may not have emerged if PP didn't flub as much as it did, because these results gave C's an initiative to go and usurp leadership of the Spanish right. If all of VOX's seats were PP seats, I have a feeling Rivera may have tried to come to the table, despite the reservations on both sides, when the egos failed moderate themselves between PSOE and Podems. At the same time C's is trying to coup PP, they face opponents from all sides. PSOE is trying to pull the moderates and left away, VOX is trying to pull the nationalist faction away, and PP is trying to pull back their rightists.

So Rivera is doing something spooky. He sees the VOX base, and how voters on the far right easily deserted him and PP after Andalusia. But at the same time, C's noticed how VOX voters are not like normal post-industrial populists, they are similar to C's voters. They also noticed how VOX's brand has fallen out of favor. What Rivera wants to do methinks is kill off VOX before it even has a chance to prove itself, and reorient C's into a populist party. POSE+Podemos is exactly what Rivera wants since he can now attack the full government as sellouts to the regionalists, not just Podemos. It also explains the C's high commands desire to work with VOX locally when PSOE+C's is an option. They are happy to throw the small left leaning wing of their party under the bus for a similar reason, but potentially not a good one in the long term.

I have no idea how this play will work in the long run, only I can suspect that it will lead to a C's that hardly resembles the one we now today.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: mileslunn on July 23, 2019, 02:07:20 PM
I think there is a good chance PSOE and Podemos will come to an agreement as it is in neither's interest to have another election, but even then it is still 166 in favour to 169 against so Sanchez needs to get either PNV or El Bildu, both Basque nationalists to vote in favour which may be tough or one either the Catalan nationalists or Citizens to abstain which seems unlikely, especially with the latter.  Still new elections are not inevitable, no doubt all parties will look at the polls and there is a chance one blinks, but also wouldn't be shocked if new elections happen.  There is a slight chance PSOE + Podemos might get majority as in European elections they got 176 seats, but a strong roll of the dice.  The right could also win a plurality, but a majority will be even more challenging although they can probably count on Navarre+ supporting them, but in terms of abstentions, I doubt they would get anymore than left would asides from maybe Canarian Coalition.

Real problem is Spain is not used to minority governments so no incentive for anyone to cooperate whereas in other countries like Germany, Netherlands, and Nordic Countries, minorities are the norm so parties have more incentive to cooperate.  Since minorities appear to be the norm in the future, I suspect one of two things will happen:
1.  They will start cooperating and in fact Citizens being in the centre may show greater openness to work with other side.  Heck the equivalents of PP and PSOE in Germany are right now in a coalition, but that is probably a bridge too far.
2.  Like Italy and Greece, they introduce bonus seats to increase the chance of a majority

One reason why I am glad where I live uses FTFP since for all its flaws, things like this happen far less often.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: DavidB. on July 23, 2019, 02:18:46 PM
Real problem is Spain is not used to minority governments so no incentive for anyone to cooperate whereas in other countries like Germany, Netherlands, and Nordic Countries, minorities are the norm so parties have more incentive to cooperate. 
LOLno


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: urutzizu on July 23, 2019, 03:25:36 PM
One reason why I am glad where I live uses FTFP since for all its flaws, things like this happen far less often.

Pls, just dont. We get it, you like FPTP, but going to European threads with little actual knowledge of the political situation, and saying that FPTP would be better and we would not have all this mess, it is really not very helpful. You are not the only guy doing it, computer89 was doing it on the Israel thread too, for example. The rest of your post was not an issue for me, but this, this is really beating a dead horse.

Also, like Canada has had a ton of minority Governments too, despite FPTP.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: parochial boy on July 23, 2019, 03:33:33 PM
Someone is confusing minority and coalition I think.

And the current situation in the UK should provide a pretty good demonstration into the problems that FPTP can lead to. To say the least


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: mileslunn on July 23, 2019, 03:52:03 PM
Someone is confusing minority and coalition I think.

And the current situation in the UK should provide a pretty good demonstration into the problems that FPTP can lead to. To say the least

True but point being countries where majorities are the norm tend to have trouble forming coalitions or workable minorities as opposed to those where minority governments are the norm.  I don't see Spain going to FTFP, but seat bonus for winner like Greece and Italy have is always a possibility, although with regionalist parties might be a tougher sell in Spain than those two, not sure about that.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 23, 2019, 04:32:10 PM
The decision made by UP to abstain in the first investiture vote, instead of voting against as it was the original plan, surprised the PSOE in a similar way the decision made by Pablo Iglesias on Friday. Today's abstention and the withdrawal of Iglesias make more difficult for the PSOE to blame UP for a repetition of elections. The inner circle of Pedro Sánchez held a  meeting in Congress that lasted more than three hours and decided to make a new offer to negotiate . This circle of top 'Sanchistas' incorporates Deputy PM Carmen Calvo, parliamentary spokeswoman Adriana Lastra, secretary for organization and minister for Development José Luis Abalos, Finance minister María Jesús Montero and Chief of Staff Iván Redondo. PNV, Compromis and ERC are pressing for an agreement. The two former would vote for Sánchez on Thursday and the latter would abstain in case of PSOE-UP deal. Socialists and UP will hold the key meetings tomorrow


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 23, 2019, 05:40:08 PM
.  I don't see Spain going to FTFP, but seat bonus for winner like Greece and Italy have is always a possibility, although with regionalist parties might be a tougher sell in Spain than those two, not sure about that.

PP leader Pablo Casado has proposed the introduction of a seat bonus already, but the constitutionality of the bonus is more than dubious. The problem is that we haven't replaced the (imperfect) two-party system by a flexible multiparty system, rather we have now a rigid two-block system that tends to deadlock. I blame the strategic decision made by Albert Rivera more than the existence of regionalist and peripheral nationalist parties. The latter have been always there and reflect the regional diversity of the country and the existence of different cultural identities. Despite the separatist drive in Catalonia has created a big mess, these regionalist parties have the same right as national parties to play a role in the country's governability. In the case of Cs, being a party that (theoretically) occupies the centre of the spectrum, the decision to put a veto on socialists has limited the room for manoeuvre for deals and the flexibility of the party system, not to mention the confrontational attitude with regard to peripheral nationalists tends to aggravate tension  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: DavidB. on July 23, 2019, 05:46:03 PM
Occasional deadlocks can be expected in rapidly changing, often increasingly fragmented party systems - it's just that deadlocks in party systems that operate according to the bloc logic tend to cause snap elections sooner. Compare Yisrael Beiteinu's attitude in Israel to the attitude of Podemos in Spain: denying its supposed (unofficial)  bloc partner(s) access to government. With C's demands being incompatible with the demands of PSOE's separatist de-facto left bloc partners and YB's demands being incompatible with the demands of Likud's Haredi bloc partners. The difference is that C's were pretty transparent about being part of the opposite bloc of the election winner. Other examples of difficult situations in bloc politics can be found in Norway, where Venstre and KrF are clearly uneasy with their alliance with the right and the risk of them causing the collapse of the right-wing government remains real, and in Sweden, where C and L now sustain a left-wing government despite being part of the right-wing Alliance, all in order to deny SD power. What happens in Spain reflects a pattern that is prevalent all across Europe but manifests itself differently in different political systems. As older political divides lose relevance, new divides emerge, but the party system has trouble adapting to these new faultlines.

This is so sad, Alexa play Linkin Park's "New Divide"


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 23, 2019, 06:00:47 PM
Real problem is Spain is not used to minority governments so no incentive for anyone to cooperate whereas in other countries like Germany, Netherlands, and Nordic Countries, minorities are the norm so parties have more incentive to cooperate.  Since minorities appear to be the norm in the future, I suspect one of two things will happen:
1.  They will start cooperating and in fact Citizens being in the centre may show greater openness to work with other side.  Heck the equivalents of PP and PSOE in Germany are right now in a coalition, but that is probably a bridge too far.
2.  Like Italy and Greece, they introduce bonus seats to increase the chance of a majority

One reason why I am glad where I live uses FTFP since for all its flaws, things like this happen far less often.

Well, from what it seems, option 2 might be more likely than what one would think. In recient times there have been 2 proposals by PP and PSOE floated at different times:

1: A seat majority bonus, almost like the one in Greece. With this proposal, the Congress would expand to 399 or 400 seats, and there would be a 49-50 seat bonus given to the winner. This option is of dubious constitutionality as the constitution specifies MPs must be elected by province and be elected proportionally,

2: Changing the government formation system to the one used in local elections, where if after 2 months there is no agreements, the leader of the largest party automatically becomes PM (so in this case Sánchez, in 2016 Rajoy). This needs a constitutional reform for sure.

Of course neither solution is perfect. Option 1 would mean that PSOE-UP would automatically get a majority, but given the problems right now who knows if they would actually make a deal!

And option 2 just delays the deadlock for a couple months, until a budget or big government law needs to be passed.

I don't like either option, though I would rather have option 2 than option 1 if we go with either.

One reason why I am glad where I live uses FTFP since for all its flaws, things like this happen far less often.

Pls, just dont. We get it, you like FPTP, but going to European threads with little actual knowledge of the political situation, and saying that FPTP would be better and we would not have all this mess, it is really not very helpful. You are not the only guy doing it, computer89 was doing it on the Israel thread too, for example. The rest of your post was not an issue for me, but this, this is really beating a dead horse.

Also, like Canada has had a ton of minority Governments too, despite FPTP.

Actually, if we were to try and switch to a majoritarian system, FPTP is vastly superior than a seat bonus. At least FPTP gives you local representation unlike a seat majority bonus like Greece.

But I'm a weird Spanish fan of FPTP, 90% of Spaniards would disagree with me :P

Worth noting that during the Restauración regime (1876-1923), Spain did use a weird form of FPTP I believe, with MPs elected from multi member constituencies through block vote (kind of like the modern day Senate)? Cáánovas del Castillo and Sagasta were massive fans of the UK's system, to the point where they even ripped off the parties of the day! (Liberals and Conservatives)

However elections back then were completely rigged and more of "electoral type events", so no one really cares or knows much about that.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: brucejoel99 on July 23, 2019, 06:19:58 PM
At this rate, Sanchez is believing the polls, will allow Spain to go to a 2nd election, & will end up like Theresa May.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: mileslunn on July 23, 2019, 10:56:06 PM
At this rate, Sanchez is believing the polls, will allow Spain to go to a 2nd election, & will end up like Theresa May.

I think its still a toss up.  I suspect with risk for both parties, Podemos and PSOE will find a way to reach an agreement, but still only 166 For to 169 against so need either Bhildu or PNV to vote in favour.  Former is more left wing so seems more natural choice but leaves razor thin on budget and other votes.  Possible but far less likely Catalan nationalist will abstain while almost no chance Citizens will.  Real problem is a PSOE + Podemos majority only barely happens under the most optimistic polls while a Citizens + PP + Vox only showed in majority territory back in early April nothing since and recent polls show them well back never mind also probably Citizens and PP might fight over who would lead govt.  Off course with any early election a lot depends on whom is blamed so could swing either way.  I think Thursday's vote will probably fall short, but I suspect there will still be more negotiation before September to try and avoid an election, but who knows.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 24, 2019, 03:56:36 AM
At this rate, Sanchez is believing the polls, will allow Spain to go to a 2nd election, & will end up like Theresa May.

I think its still a toss up.  I suspect with risk for both parties, Podemos and PSOE will find a way to reach an agreement, but still only 166 For to 169 against so need either Bhildu or PNV to vote in favour.   

No. As I said in a previous post, in case PSOE and UP reach an agreement, PNV and Compromís will vote in favour and ERC will abstain. Then the result would be:

173 Yes: PSOE, UP, PNV, Compromis, PRC
19 abstain: ERC, EH Bildu
158 No: PP, Cs, Vox, JxCAT, CC, UPN



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 24, 2019, 04:02:45 AM
In the news: Fear of fresh election could produce last-minute governing deal in Spain

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/07/24/inenglish/1563955112_759494.html

Quote
In Spain, the pressure to reach a governing deal ahead of a crucial parliamentary vote on Thursday has reached a new high after acting prime minister Pedro Sánchez failed to secure enough support to be confirmed as government leader.

The growing risk of a repeat election in the fall makes it more likely that the Socialist Party (PSOE) and the anti-austerity Unidas Podemos will finally strike a governing deal ahead of Thursday afternoon (...)

Sánchez has been in talks for weeks with Pablo Iglesias, the leader of Unidas Podemos, in a bid to reach a leftist governing deal. But negotiations have stalled and on Tuesday Podemos abstained – a sign that there might still be hope for an 11th-hour agreement before the second round of voting.

In the meantime, other regional parties that could hold the key to Sánchez’s success on Thursday, such as the Basque Nationalist Party (PNV), Valencia’s Compromís and the Catalan Republican Left (ERC), are also pressuring for a deal to prevent a new election.

A few hours after the Tuesday vote, acting deputy PM Carmen Calvo phoned Podemos to take up the talks again. Pablo Echenique, a senior Podemos official, said that his party is awaiting the Socialists’ proposals. A meeting is expected for Wednesday.

Podemos leaders have been conveying the message that they are open to last-minute deals, as long as the PSOE offers them something more than “decorative” positions in the future government. After Sánchez cited Iglesias’ wish to be part of the Cabinet as the main stumbling block to an agreement, the Podemos leader this past weekend agreed to step aside (...)

So far, Sánchez seems unwilling to offer Podemos much more than he has already, which is a few newly created ministerial positions (with very little executive power, says Podemos) and a spot for a deputy PM who would oversee social affairs. On Tuesday, the Socialist leader said in Congress that the choice for the anti-austerity party is either that, “or voting the same way as the far right.”

Some people who are familiar with Sánchez’s personality believe he is acting this way to get more negotiating leverage. Others feel that he simply distrusts Iglesias and that he really is contemplating a fresh election.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Skye on July 24, 2019, 01:18:20 PM
https://elpais.com/politica/2019/07/24/actualidad/1563952484_391932.html

Sánchez has made his last offer to Podemos. It doesn't look like Podemos is thrilled with it.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: mileslunn on July 24, 2019, 02:32:05 PM
I could be wrong, but my prediction at this point, is investiture fails tomorrow, but a deal is reached before September as new election is a huge gamble and so its in the interest of both sides to avoid it.  Difficulty though will be passing legislation and the budget although since left wing parties do have a majority of seats, a broadly progressive agenda could theoretically pass if all sides put aside egos, but only need a few to not do so and it fails.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 24, 2019, 02:41:58 PM
Sanchez has leaked on purpose the demands UP was making. UP demanded the deputy PM post (with competences in social rights and the envirnonment) as well as the ministries of Labour, Social rights, Equality, Science, Ecologic transition and Treasury (to be renamed "Fiscal Justice and fight against Fraud" ministry)

If you understand Spanish you can read the leaked document here:

https://es.scribd.com/document/419644189/Exigencias-de-Unidas-Podemos-al-PSOE


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 24, 2019, 03:53:03 PM
PSOE also leaked their final proposal to Podemos. That one consisted of the deputy PM post and 3 ministries: Housing, Healthcare and Equality


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: rob in cal on July 24, 2019, 04:03:28 PM
Has there been much of an immigration debate in the government formation talks?  Is there much difference between PSOE and UP on the issue?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 24, 2019, 04:15:38 PM
Has there been much of an immigration debate in the government formation talks?  Is there much difference between PSOE and UP on the issue?

We know little about the actual talks, but I don't think so. UP is more "open borders":than PSOE, to put it simply. However, the differences are not so great to say they are unsurmountable and the issue is not a battle ground between PSOE and UP.

The differences on the Catalan question are more serious and were used by Sánchez as a pretext to sideline Iglesias


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 24, 2019, 04:32:05 PM
Has there been much of an immigration debate in the government formation talks?  Is there much difference between PSOE and UP on the issue?

No, not really. Immigration is very low in the list of priorities for Spaniards. Even Vox doesn't talk about it that much compared to other similar parties in Europe


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 24, 2019, 04:49:20 PM
I could be wrong, but my prediction at this point, is investiture fails tomorrow, but a deal is reached before September as new election is a huge gamble and so its in the interest of both sides to avoid it.  Difficulty though will be passing legislation and the budget although since left wing parties do have a majority of seats, a broadly progressive agenda could theoretically pass if all sides put aside egos, but only need a few to not do so and it fails.

It's a possibility, but not the best scenario. September could not be a good idea if PSOE and UP are seeking the ERC abstention, because the situation in Catalonia will be more agitated by then. September 11 is the date of the Catalan national holiday: la Diada. There have been huge pro-independence demonstrations in the past 7 years.  This year there will be massive protests in favour of the jailed separatist leaders. Additionally the ruling of Supreme Court is expected this autumn and the sentence could be severe for the Catalan leaders. The following months will be troubled and it'd be better if the investiture is solved and there is a government with full powers. If we go to elections, then it's going to be a terrible mess


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on July 25, 2019, 03:15:50 AM
It sounds like there has not been much progress in negotiations between UP and Sanchez and that the latter is therefore likely to lose today's investiture vote. It feels like Sanchez is taking a massive risk thwt current polling does not show to he paying off. So it also seems really foolish.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Skye on July 25, 2019, 04:41:10 AM
Podemos made yet another proposal and PSOE rejected it almost immediately.

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/07/25/actualidad/1564035519_677311.html

See you in November bois.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 25, 2019, 11:22:44 AM
Second investiture vote failed

124 Yes: PSOE, PRC
67 Abstain: UP, ERC*, PNV, EH Bildu, Compromis
155 No: OP, Cs, Vox, JxCAT*, CC, UPN

* 3 JxCAT and 1 ERC are suspended

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/07/25/inenglish/1564043857_784379.html

Quote
  Negotiations between the PSOE and left-wing Unidas Podemos continued right down to the wire today, but the two groups were unable to come up with a governing deal. The clock will now start ticking for another potential investiture vote in September, but if that also comes to nothing, Spain will head toward fresh elections in November. It would be the fourth time that Spaniards have been called to the polls to choose a government in four years, and the fifth election held this year alone.

“Today is not a good day, not for anybody who considers themselves progressive,” summed up PSOE spokesperson Adriana Lastra. “This is the second time, Mr Iglesias, that you are going to prevent a leftist government in Spain,” she added in a direct address to the leader of Unidas Podemos, Pablo Iglesias (...)

For me the chief culprit is Sánchez,  but the UP demands (Treasure, Labour, Ecologic Transition...) were absurdly unrealistic. Maybe Iglesias will regret to have rejected the last PSOE offer. There is still a chance to solve this in the following two months, but the mutual recriminations and the deep mistrust won't make it easy. Countdown for elections starts now


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: mileslunn on July 25, 2019, 12:30:59 PM
What is the earliest the next investiture vote can be held?  Do they have to wait until September or if PSOE + Podemos strike an agreement can they call one earlier since once they have an agreement they have the numbers.  It seems largely egos here is the big thing standing in between one as Podemos was asking for more ministries than realistic, but PSOE saying none initially also delayed the talks and created a lot of bad will.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: brucejoel99 on July 25, 2019, 02:53:54 PM
What is the earliest the next investiture vote can be held?  Do they have to wait until September or if PSOE + Podemos strike an agreement can they call one earlier since once they have an agreement they have the numbers.  It seems largely egos here is the big thing standing in between one as Podemos was asking for more ministries than realistic, but PSOE saying none initially also delayed the talks and created a lot of bad will.

King Felipe can schedule a new round of talks to establish whether any candidate stands a chance of becoming the next PM any time ahead of the September 23rd deadline. Of course, the only politician who stands a chance is Sánchez, with a new investiture hearing able to set before the deadline upon confirmation that he has sufficient support to win the vote.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: mileslunn on July 25, 2019, 03:37:13 PM
From an outsiders perspective this all seems so superficial. I would have totally understood if the reason for the failure was a substantial policy difference (like in Israel), say on Catalonia or budget deficits. But the positions of the parties are so now close to each other, they agreed on a policy paper, they agreed on Iglesias to go out, they agreed on Podemos ministers in Governement...and now they are forcing the Country to new elections (and risking one of the few left-wing governments in Europe) because of squabbling over the exact allocation of ministries? Such things are usually (in Germany at least) the easiest thing to be settled. If people like Casado/Rivera say "well the left are too incompetent to even form a government, how are they going to keep the country together?", it will be hard to argue against that...  This is entirely on Sanchez (especially) and Podemos and they are putting the battle for the hegemony over the left ahead of the good of the country and ahead of progressive goals.

They will also probably face a lot of pressure from grassroots over this and if they end up blowing an opportunity, I suspect grassroots will be really angry.  Still things are moving closer and with 2 months left, an election may happen, but I think a deal is still very much a possibility.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: Skye on July 25, 2019, 04:12:11 PM
From an outsiders perspective this all seems so superficial. I would have totally understood if the reason for the failure was a substantial policy difference (like in Israel), say on Catalonia or budget deficits. But the positions of the parties are so now close to each other, they agreed on a policy paper, they agreed on Iglesias to go out, they agreed on Podemos ministers in Governement...and now they are forcing the Country to new elections (and risking one of the few left-wing governments in Europe) because of squabbling over the exact allocation of ministries? Such things are usually (in Germany at least) the easiest thing to be settled. If people like Casado/Rivera say "well the left are too incompetent to even form a government, how are they going to keep the country together?", it will be hard to argue against that...  This is entirely on Sanchez (especially) and Podemos and they are putting the battle for the hegemony over the left ahead of the good of the country and ahead of progressive goals.

The way I see it, Sánchez clearly doesn't want to give Podemos enough power so that they become more relevant for the next 4 years, which could pose a severe threat to their standing with voters on the left. Plus, there's also the fact that Podemos got only half of the votes (and a third of the deputies) that the PSOE got.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: Velasco on July 25, 2019, 04:14:04 PM
I understand that someone from Germany, or someone from any other country with a tradition of coalition governments, finds this mess inexplicable. I'm still trying to find an explanation and I think many people in Spain is equally asking how we came to this point. I think it was Iglesias who said it's not possible to build a coalition agreement in two days, when you have been doing nothing in the previous 80 days. I think the exclusion of Iglesias was not fair (and socialists didn't expect he was accepting to step aside), but Sánchez had a point saying that Podemos was "asking for the moon" and seeking to form a parallel government.  The talks between PSOE and UP in the last days were not an actual negotiation. Egos aside, at the bottom is underlying a long history of rivalry between the two branches of the Spanish Left (socialdemocratic vs alternative/post-communist) and certain narrative about the "governing left" vs the "protesting left" . I mean, the PSOE is the only party in the Spanish Left with experience in government and never trusted the other leftist parties




Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: windjammer on July 25, 2019, 04:40:36 PM
The French newspapers are blaming Podemos for this failure, accusing them of wanting to create a parallel government.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: Velasco on July 25, 2019, 04:52:26 PM
The French newspapers are blaming Podemos for this failure, accusing them of wanting to create a parallel government.

Interesting. Are all the French papers blaming Podemos to the same degree? What say Le Figaro, Le Monde or Liberation?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: windjammer on July 25, 2019, 05:30:48 PM
The French newspapers are blaming Podemos for this failure, accusing them of wanting to create a parallel government.

Interesting. Are all the French papers blaming Podemos to the same degree? What say Le Figaro, Le Monde or Liberation?
I mean,
For most of them they just announced the news without any analysis. But for Liberation who is a well known leftwing newspaper,  they have been extremely critical of Iglesias (https://www.liberation.fr/planete/2019/07/25/pedro-sanchez-rate-l-investiture-la-gauche-risque-le-retour-aux-urnes_1742118)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture of Pedro Sánchez: July 22-25)
Post by: Velasco on July 25, 2019, 10:44:25 PM
The first day of the investiture debate was depressing. Cs leader Albert Rivera is was particularly disastrous: overacting, deranged and resorting to conspiracy theories in the worst populist fashion. According to Rivera, Sánchez has a plan to destroy Spain. Currently the Cs leader is to the right of Casado and not so far from Vox, something like a modern José Antonio Primo de Rivera. Hearing his speech today, it's not difficult to understand why an increasing number of people is running away from the party. The relationship between Pedro Sánchez and Pablo Iglesias is strained, which is unsurprising. The Podemos leader showed restraint in his first reply to Sanchez, trying not to burn the bridges, but it became evident the negotiation is ran aground. Sánchez is not very enthusiastic with the idea of a coalition, apparently. Someone believes elections in November is not a bad idea.


So I got a depressing theory about Rivera, a theory that stems from his precarious position politically right now. C's right now, touches almost every part of the spectrum, but is a master of no particular position besides centralism, and as such is vulnerable. Now, this problem may not have emerged if PP didn't flub as much as it did, because these results gave C's an initiative to go and usurp leadership of the Spanish right. If all of VOX's seats were PP seats, I have a feeling Rivera may have tried to come to the table, despite the reservations on both sides, when the egos failed moderate themselves between PSOE and Podems. At the same time C's is trying to coup PP, they face opponents from all sides. PSOE is trying to pull the moderates and left away, VOX is trying to pull the nationalist faction away, and PP is trying to pull back their rightists.

So Rivera is doing something spooky. He sees the VOX base, and how voters on the far right easily deserted him and PP after Andalusia. But at the same time, C's noticed how VOX voters are not like normal post-industrial populists, they are similar to C's voters. They also noticed how VOX's brand has fallen out of favor. What Rivera wants to do methinks is kill off VOX before it even has a chance to prove itself, and reorient C's into a populist party. POSE+Podemos is exactly what Rivera wants since he can now attack the full government as sellouts to the regionalists, not just Podemos. It also explains the C's high commands desire to work with VOX locally when PSOE+C's is an option. They are happy to throw the small left leaning wing of their party under the bus for a similar reason, but potentially not a good one in the long term.

I have no idea how this play will work in the long run, only I can suspect that it will lead to a C's that hardly resembles the one we now today.

It's possible that you are on the right track. I was thinking in a more radical populist turn when I heard the Rivera speech on Monday, but now I'm reading to a prestigious journalist that someone is advising Rivera to become in the Spanish Salvini. There was a social unrest in previous years reflected in the results of the 2015 elections, which introduced an increasing complexity n Spanish politics: weakening of the two traditional parties alongside the surge of Podemos (the moral winner) and Cs (oranges were backed by certain economic and media powers to counter the purple effect: the "Podemos of the right"). That unrest coincided with the peak of the economic crisis, as well with the fatigue of the political system born in 1978 and the increase of territorial tension (Catalonia). Podemos was the party that channelled the demands of the "indignados" movement (also known as 15 M), made up of young and prepared people whose future prospects were threatened by the crisis. But the increasing complexity caused by the surge of new parties has translated into political deadlock. As long as the mess is getting bigger, the people is increasingly less understanding and more fed up with politicians. This is the perfect breeding ground for another kind of unrest of very different nature, anti-political in opposition to the highly politicized "indignados". The surge of Vox is related to the spread of this kind of unrest among rightwing voters, the traditional base of PP. However, as I tried to explain when we were apparently going to succumb to the Vox tide, Santiago Abascal is not Matteo Salvini. Abascal has serious limitations as a leader, lacking the talent for politics and the charisma to become an idol of masses. Rivera is more talented than Abascal and he is turning increasingly aggressive. The turn to a more radical Spanish nationalism is accompanied by a more confrontational style, always in search of conflict and populist headlines (I doubt the incidents at the LGTB parade in Madrid were casual). Rivera is beginning to talk about conspiracy theories (the "Plan Sánchez") and deems his political opponents in the left and the peripheral nationalism as a "gang". This is very Salvini, don't you think?    

Meanwhile the Spanish Left is commiting suicide.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: Velasco on July 26, 2019, 12:48:12 AM
The French newspapers are blaming Podemos for this failure, accusing them of wanting to create a parallel government.

Interesting. Are all the French papers blaming Podemos to the same degree? What say Le Figaro, Le Monde or Liberation?
I mean,
For most of them they just announced the news without any analysis. But for Liberation who is a well known leftwing newspaper,  they have been extremely critical of Iglesias (https://www.liberation.fr/planete/2019/07/25/pedro-sanchez-rate-l-investiture-la-gauche-risque-le-retour-aux-urnes_1742118)

Well, the article says the Podemos demands were excessive and I agree with that. On the other hand,  Le Monde correspondent Sandrine Morel says that Sánchez was overconfident and let the time go by. Both criticisms are correct, in my opinion. I'm not fluent in French  and maybe I'm missing something

https://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2019/07/25/pourquoi-pedro-sanchez-n-a-pas-ete-reconduit-a-la-tete-du-gouvernement-espagnol_5493447_3210.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: mileslunn on July 26, 2019, 03:53:22 PM
The French newspapers are blaming Podemos for this failure, accusing them of wanting to create a parallel government.

Interesting. Are all the French papers blaming Podemos to the same degree? What say Le Figaro, Le Monde or Liberation?
I mean,
For most of them they just announced the news without any analysis. But for Liberation who is a well known leftwing newspaper,  they have been extremely critical of Iglesias (https://www.liberation.fr/planete/2019/07/25/pedro-sanchez-rate-l-investiture-la-gauche-risque-le-retour-aux-urnes_1742118)

Well, the article says the Podemos demands were excessive and I agree with that. On the other hand,  Le Monde correspondent Sandrine Morel says that Sánchez was overconfident and let the time go by. Both criticisms are correct, in my opinion. I'm not fluent in French  and maybe I'm missing something

https://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2019/07/25/pourquoi-pedro-sanchez-n-a-pas-ete-reconduit-a-la-tete-du-gouvernement-espagnol_5493447_3210.html

How likely do you think it is they manage to form something by September.  On program and most issues divide seems small and if an election is called and right wins, I suspect many on left will be really angry at blowing a golden opportunity for a progressive government.  Or will threat of an election but enough that one finally agrees.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: Velasco on July 26, 2019, 05:28:07 PM
How likely do you think it is they manage to form something by September.  On program and most issues divide seems small and if an election is called and right wins, I suspect many on left will be really angry at blowing a golden opportunity for a progressive government.  Or will threat of an election but enough that one finally agrees.

The relationship between PSOE and UP is broken and it's going to be extremely difficult to restore. I'll summarize last developments in telegraphic style.

1) Deputy PM Carmen Calvo ruled out today the possibility of a coalition government. The last offer made to Podemos expired when Iglesias rejected it before the second investiture vote. Previously Pedro Sánchez said that socialists will reset and explore "other ways".

2) IU released a statement asking Podemos to reach a programmatic agreement with the PSOE, even without a coalition government. This reveals divisions within UP, with some coalition partners and factions criticizing the way Pablo Iglesias and his inner circle conducted negotiations.

3) The king will postpone the next round of talks, in order to give time to the parties.

Right now everything points to elections in November, but two months is a long time.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: jaichind on July 26, 2019, 07:46:15 PM
Would not another election just produce a similar deadlock as today ?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: mileslunn on July 26, 2019, 09:07:24 PM
Would not another election just produce a similar deadlock as today ?

Yup as no way PSOE gets a majority on its own.  Right  if turnout is low could win a plurality, but only CC and Navarre+ would support them so unless they fall just shy of 176 no government as no way Catalan nationalists will support an even less sympathetic coalition while other regionalists asides two mentioned are all on political left..  But since Spain is not used to fragmented legislatures unlike elsewhere in Europe it might take a few before parties change. Or voters being tired of elections might coalesce around one party on each side of spectrum thus returning more towards a two party system.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on July 27, 2019, 02:39:06 AM
Would not another election just produce a similar deadlock as today ?

Yeah, and it could even be even more deadlocked, where either Cs or PP would have to join the Socialists. And that clearly isn't happening. PSOE is polling better today than before, but mostly at the expense of Podemos. So the coalitional math is mostly unchanged. All of that is why people rightly would blame Sanchez and why I suspect letting hubris or ideology or stupidity or whatever get in the way of a September agreement would be sonething the entire left regrets should new elections happen.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: jaichind on July 27, 2019, 06:35:06 AM
Why does not Sánchez  say something like: "If Podemos does not get on board with our conditions to save the country from instability PSOE will support a C government from the outside"


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on July 27, 2019, 06:49:43 AM
Why does not Sánchez  say something like: "If Podemos does not get on board with our conditions to save the country from instability PSOE will support a C government from the outside"

I don't think he would remain PSOE leader for long saying things like that.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: Velasco on July 27, 2019, 07:51:08 AM
Why does not Sánchez  say something like: "If Podemos does not get on board with our conditions to save the country from instability PSOE will support a C government from the outside"

I don't think he would remain PSOE leader for long saying things like that.

Oh yes, it's a fantastic idea and socialists should go for it. Let's give all the power to Albert Rivera, the leader of the third party in parliament whose strategy is keeping tension high with his bigoted attacks against "Sánchez and his gang". Definitely it'd be the wisest decision to make. "For the good of the country"


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: Velasco on July 27, 2019, 09:21:59 AM
Wondering what went wrong

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/07/26/inenglish/1564127930_233324.html

Quote
It all happened so fast that there are plenty of people still trying to understand it. Not even the main protagonists of Thursday’s events in Congress are completely clear on just how negotiations on issues that are by no means impossible to agree on could have ended so badly, with a desperate last-ditch offer from Pablo Iglesias voiced from the lectern itself in Spain’s lower house of parliament.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: windjammer on July 27, 2019, 03:48:15 PM
Well,
Pablo Iglesias needs to be deposed. If there are new elections, I suggest Podemo will take the blame.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: jaichind on July 28, 2019, 07:52:49 AM
Why does not Sánchez  say something like: "If Podemos does not get on board with our conditions to save the country from instability PSOE will support a C government from the outside"

I don't think he would remain PSOE leader for long saying things like that.

Oh yes, it's a fantastic idea and socialists should go for it. Let's give all the power to Albert Rivera, the leader of the third party in parliament whose strategy is keeping tension high with his bigoted attacks against "Sánchez and his gang". Definitely it'd be the wisest decision to make. "For the good of the country"

You obviously right on the political dynamics but it seems to me that Sanchez has to threaten an outcome that is even worse for  Podemos  than status quo.  Not sure what it should be.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: Velasco on July 28, 2019, 06:20:14 PM
Why does not Sánchez  say something like: "If Podemos does not get on board with our conditions to save the country from instability PSOE will support a C government from the outside"

I don't think he would remain PSOE leader for long saying things like that.

Oh yes, it's a fantastic idea and socialists should go for it. Let's give all the power to Albert Rivera, the leader of the third party in parliament whose strategy is keeping tension high with his bigoted attacks against "Sánchez and his gang". Definitely it'd be the wisest decision to make. "For the good of the country"

You obviously right on the political dynamics but it seems to me that Sanchez has to threaten an outcome that is even worse for  Podemos  than status quo.  Not sure what it should be.

Repetition of elections is already a terrible outcome for Podemos. IU and other factions within UP will try to convince Iglesias to reach a confidence and supply agreement if a coalition government is not possible (and that possibility is dead in its tracks, according to deputy PM Calvo)

United Unknown made 13 satirical micro videos in square format for twitter about the Spanish political class that are funny and very well crafted. There are videos for the king, former PMs González, Aznar and Rajoy, the leaders of the main parties and even unemployment lines and  media sewers. Here you have Casado, Rivera and Arrimadas




Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on July 29, 2019, 05:54:37 AM
Will errejon's run faction run in a new election?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: Skye on July 30, 2019, 07:08:16 AM
So... there's a new CIS poll and, well...



Apparently the PSOE is stronger than ever.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: Oryxslayer on July 30, 2019, 07:55:43 AM
So... there's a new CIS poll and, well...



Apparently the PSOE is stronger than ever.

It's CIS, so this is the appropriate response: -_-. But I fully expect there to be Podemos -> PSOE swings right now.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: Velasco on July 30, 2019, 09:30:39 AM
Will errejon's run faction run in a new election?

Rumours exist, but Errejón and his collaborators deny some press reports and say their efforts are focused on the organization in Madrid. But Errejón admits there exists a space for "nonsectarian" and progressive forces, as well he says there is many people "excited" with that possibility and doesn't rule out to run. The rumours say Errejón is seeking to forge regional alliances, in order to create some sort of confederation. Possible allies are Compromís (Valencia), En Comú Podem (ECP, Catalonia), En Marea (Galicia) or even Adelante Andalucía (AA). The Valencian and the Galician parties already broke with Podemos, as well Errejón and Compromís leader Mónica Oltra have an excellent relationship. The Catalan and the Andalusian parties are still members of UP and it'd be complicated they ally a party led by Errejón. However, there is no great affinity between Ada Colau and Pablo Iglesias; the ECP leader and Barcelona mayor has a better relationship with Errejón. On a curious note, Errejón speaks Catalan as he decided t learn the language despite lacking family links with Catalonia (it's not an usual thing). Regarding Adelante Andalucía, the leader Teresa Rodríguez is member of the Anticapitalist faction of Podemos. It's notorious the relationship between Rodríguez and Iglesias is bad and some rumours say she would prefer to ally with Errejón, despite ideological differences (Rodríguez is more "radical" and Errejón is more "moderate"). Rodríguez is seeking more autonomy for AA within UP, but tbh I see extremely difficult it would leave the alliance with Iglesias in the eventuality of a November election. But people in UP fear Errejón could make a lot of harm to them standing lists in the largest constituencies, while people at La Moncloa (the government's seat) is making calculations.

Recently the Errejón party Más Madrid won a senator, appointed by the regional assembly. The MM member joined ECP, AA, Compromís and Més per Mallorca to create a parliamentary group called "Confederal Left". These parties joined forces in order to get more visibility in the Upper House, as Podemos lost all its representatives in the last general election.





Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: windjammer on July 30, 2019, 11:01:47 AM
Who is being blamed for this fiasco?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: Velasco on July 30, 2019, 03:58:12 PM

There is a Metroscopia poll that says people blames PSOE the most. This doesn't imply necessarily voters will punish the socialists more than UP. But again, leftwing voters are angry and disappointed. Additionally, the fear of Vox has disapoeared. They might stay at home if we go to elections.

The CIS poll is obviously unreliable. Tezanos is saying something yhat we knew already: Sánchez is too sexy for this world


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: Velasco on August 01, 2019, 10:27:26 AM
"Spain’s voters upset at stalemate but divided over a new election", according to a 40dB poll for El País

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/08/01/inenglish/1564644095_006608.html

Quote
A study by the pollster 40dB shows that 71.6% of citizens are either upset or at the very least concerned about the way their political representatives have conducted themselves throughout the prolonged post-election period, which ended in a failed investiture bid last week.

Only right-wing and far-right supporters feel that a return to the polls would be a good solution for Spain, which has already gone through three general elections in under four years. The last one, on April 28, was won by the Socialist Party (PSOE) but the party fell short of an overall majority and has been struggling to form a government.

Political instability makes Spain to fall two spots in the Good Governance Index, from 25th to 27th

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/07/30/inenglish/1564483345_766673.html

Quote
Political instability in Spain is hurting its global image. The country has fallen from 25th to 27th place on the Good Governance Index, compiled by the MESIAS project with support from España Global (or Global Spain), a state agency working to monitor and improve the country’s image abroad.

The index ranks countries in six different areas: control of corruption, government effectiveness, regulatory quality, rule of law and voice and accountability. Spain fell in all parameters from 2016 to 2017 except for rule of law, where it moved up one place to 26th spot. But the most pronounced fall was in the area of political stability, where Spain fell from 33rd to 40th position on the list of 145 countries.

Isabel Díaz Ayuso will be the next premier of the Madrid region leading a PP-Cs coalition government. She has secured the Vox support after Cs accepted the lowered demands of the far right party. According to Cs regional leader and next deputy premier Ignacio Aguado, the parties found a "common denominator" and the document submitted by Vox doesn't affect the previous deal signed by PP and his party. The Vox paper relinquishes the following demands:

 a) reduction of regional governmet members (cabinet posts were increased from 9 to 13, in order to make room for PP and Cs politicians)
b) the modification of LGTBI legislation
c) the transfer to the origin countries of the health costs of irregular immigrants
d) a common deal signed by the three parties: a verbal and public commitment will be enough

Vox opted to focus on issues assumable for PP and Cs such as:

 a) more tax cuts (Madrid is already the Spain's tax haven)
b) creation of a new department of social affairs, family and natality aimed to "reverse the demographic winter")
c) freedom of school choice
d) PP and Cs accept the police has full access to all the data of irregular immigrants collected by regional administration
e) development aid will be used preferentially in regional projects against depopulation
f) all victims of violence, intimidation and harassment will be treated in the same way, preventing they have different levels of protection (this probably implies regional programme against gender based violence will be replaced by generic measures against "domestic violence", but possibly that's contrary to national legislation)

Ángel Gabilondo, the PSOE candidate in Madrid who placed first in elections, deems the Vox paper "disturbing"

A similar arrangement was made in previous days  between PP, Cs and Vox to govern the region o Murcia. The new premier Fernando López Miras (PP) thanked Cs and Vox for their generosity

PSOE will govern Navarre in coalition with GBai, Podemos and IU. EH Bildu held a grassroots consultation and 75% of voters agreed to allow the investiture of the socialist María Chivite with the abstention of their members in regional assembly. 

A coalition deal was reached in Aragón between PSOE, Podemos, PAR and CHA with the additional support of IU. The coalition incorporates the regional left and the centre-right Aragonese Party (PAR), a regionalist force often allied to PP. The PAR rejected a rightwing coalition due to incompatibility with Vox's radical centralism, opting to make a deal with the PSOE. Socialist premier Javier Lambán was reelected yesterday


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: Velasco on September 02, 2019, 07:36:01 AM
Nothing has changed in August and the most likely scenario is elections in November. Pedro Sánchez claims there's a third way, but his words sound hollow

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/09/02/inenglish/1567410896_725381.html

Quote
Spain’s acting prime minister, Pedro Sánchez, trusts that the current political deadlock will be resolved without the need for a repeat general election. In an interview with EL PAÍS he gave on Friday of last week at La Moncloa, the seat of the Spanish government, the Socialist Party (PSOE) leader earnestly defended a “third way” that would also bypass the option of a coalition with the leftist Unidas Podemos.

Sánchez, who will present his latest proposal on Tuesday in Madrid, said that it is based on a common progressive program that should allow him to secure enough parliamentary support to be confirmed as the new prime minister of Spain. He has been heading an acting administration since the election of April 28, which the PSOE won but without a majority to form a government. An investiture session held in July ended in defeat when Sánchez failed to attract the 176 votes he needed. This in turn triggered a countdown for new elections that ends on September 23. Fresh polls would be held in November, and would mark the fourth time Spaniards have been called to a general election in four years.  





Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: Lumine on September 02, 2019, 09:31:45 AM
"Third way" meaning, of course, everybody else just giving him a blank cheque to govern alone despite barely having a third of the seats in Congress.

His gamble of a new election in which he tries not to be seen as the responsible and gains seats may indeed work, but he hasn't been exactly serious about working with other parties thus far. Victory through attrition Rajoy style in terms of government formation may be clever, but it isn't exactly responsible.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: samm5 on September 02, 2019, 11:01:36 AM
Nothing has changed in August and the most likely scenario is elections in November. Pedro Sánchez claims there's a third way, but his words sound hollow
Could it be possible for PSOE to win a majority with 32-35% of the votes? or at least form a minority government supported by regional parties?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: Velasco on September 02, 2019, 11:02:28 AM
"Third way" meaning, of course, everybody else just giving him a blank cheque to govern alone despite barely having a third of the seats in Congress.

Let's see what the last offer is about, but basically is what you say. Either Sánchez & Co expect that Iglesias presses the panic button before day 23, or they are overconfident with the scenario of a new election.

From my perspective, both Sánchez and Iglesias are mistaking. The Podemos leader made a brilliant move in July, when he stepped aside and forced socialists to negotiate a coalition that Sánchez never wanted. However, Iglesias ruined his tactical success by asking too much and rejecting the last offer made by the socialists. Also, appointing someone like Pablo Echenique to talk with the socialists wasn't a wise decision in my opinion. Anyway a coalition agreement is totally impossible now, since there is no way to form a solid and stable government when there is no trace of mutual confidence


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: Velasco on September 02, 2019, 11:14:31 AM
Nothing has changed in August and the most likely scenario is elections in November. Pedro Sánchez claims there's a third way, but his words sound hollow
Could it be possible for PSOE to win a majority with 32-35% of the votes? or at least form a minority government supported by regional parties?


PP got 33% of the vote and won 137 seats in the repetition of elections that took place in 2016. It was a good result for Rajoy, but clearly insufficient to conform a majority in Congress. I doubt Sánchez will improve that mark in November, so there is no alternative to a deal with Podemos in the present circumstances


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: crals on September 02, 2019, 11:51:28 AM
And what will a new election even solve? It will be nearly impossible for PSOE to have a majority without UP. What a waste for the Spanish left.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: BundouYMB on September 02, 2019, 01:31:21 PM
The complaints of people on here aren't reflected in the polls (for now). SocioMétrica and Sigma Dos are both out with new polls that show the left gaining.

SocioMétrica: https://www.elespanol.com/espana/politica/20190901/psoe-podemos-absoluta-cs-perderia-elecciones-noviembre/425957438_0.html

Sigma Dos: https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2019/09/02/5d6c0dc5fc6c837f4a8b456e.html

These polls would have the PSOE gaining about twenty seats, UP more or less steady from the election.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 02, 2019, 01:40:13 PM
Nothing has changed in August and the most likely scenario is elections in November. Pedro Sánchez claims there's a third way, but his words sound hollow
Could it be possible for PSOE to win a majority with 32-35% of the votes? or at least form a minority government supported by regional parties?


In order to get a majority in Spain, you pretty much need at least 40% of the vote. A good example is the 1989 general election, where Felipe González won exactly 175/350 seats in Congress with 39.6% of the vote. So no, a PSOE majority is impossible.

A government propped up only by regional parties is a bit more realistic, albeit not much more so. Easy to get regional parties would be PNV (6 seats), Compromís (1 seat) and PRC (1 seat), so Sánchez would need at least 168 seats in order to get a majority with them. If he could also get ERC and Bildu to abstain (even as Podemos votes no!) that would bring the required number of seats down as well, probably to the high 150s range, which is doable with 35% of the vote, although realistically it would imply PSOE a bit higher than that.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 02, 2019, 01:47:45 PM
Here is also another poll, this time from NC Report / La Razón.

PSOE: 29.5% (127-130)
PP: 21.9% (84-87)
Cs: 13.9% (49-52)
UP: 13.1% (33-36)
Vox: 7.7% (15-17)

https://www.larazon.es/espana/espana-se-abona-al-desgobierno-ningun-bloque-sumaria-mayoria-de-repetirse-elecciones-FG24777992

The Sociométrica / El Español poll also included an interesting alternative poll where PP, Cs and Vox run together in a single coalition (as PP has been suggesting lately, at least with Cs, not so much with Vox; needless to say it's not going anywhere), as well as a Senate simulation (not like the Spanish Senate matters):

https://www.elespanol.com/espana/politica/20190902/espana-suma-no-lograria-congreso-movilizaria-izquierda/425958035_0.html

https://www.elespanol.com/espana/politica/20190902/espana-suma-provocaria-vuelco-senado-llegar-controlarlo/425958065_0.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: mileslunn on September 03, 2019, 04:39:46 PM
What is the reason Iglesias and Sanchez are so adamant on their stances?  You would think the risk of a right wing government would be enough to push one to blink?  While polls suggest PSOE will gain far from a majority so they will have to agree eventually.  While I think elections are most likely, if the parties were smart they would realize its a huge gamble and find a way out.  I suspect most progressives in Spain care more about policies than which party does it just as I suspect many on the right would accept a coalition or agreement.  Italy just formed a coalition of two parties that have even less in common so in most of Europe coalitions are the norm, although Spain doesn't have a history of them.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: Velasco on September 04, 2019, 07:11:00 AM
Pedro Sánchez launched 370 policy points yesterday, on paper aimed at persuading UP. Analysts say, however, they look like the PSOE platform for the upcoming November elections.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/09/03/inenglish/1567518646_547318.html

Quote
Acting Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez has presented a series of 370 policy pledges to try to convince Unidas Podemos to back his bid to be voted back into office. What’s more he has offered the leader of the left-wing anti-austerity party, Pablo Iglesias, “a rigorous system of control” to ensure that a potential government headed by his Socialist Party (PSOE) sticks to any governing deal (...)

Sánchez also today offered Unidas Podemos – which itself is a coalition of the party founded by Iglesias and the United Left (IU) – “key responsibilities” in state institutions that are not subordinated to the Cabinet. He also called on the parties’ negotiating teams to meet on September 5. Another meeting between Sánchez and Iglesias has yet to be confirmed, but it could take place sometime next week.

Sánchez described the offer as a “triple guarantee” for Podemos, given that it includes an office connected to the Finance Ministry that would ensure that any governing deal is respected; monitoring committees in both Congress and the Senate; and a third guarantee mechanism in which members of civil society would participate. “We don’t want votes at our investiture for free,” Sánchez said of what he described in an interview with EL PAÍS published this past weekend as a “third way” forward, somewhere between the coalition government that Podemos has been demanding, and the PSOE minority government that the acting prime minister is pushing for.

“If the problem with Unidas Podemos is mistrust, let’s build trust and establish maximum guarantees,” Sánchez told a crowd of 700 people today at a presentation of the 370 measures. “Our attitude is sincere, we must not become enemies. We can be loyal allies as we have been in the past.”

Hours before Sánchez took to the stage, during an interview on state broadcaster TVE, Iglesias repeated his demand for Unidas Podemos to be given ministries in exchange for support for the PSOE. But the acting PM today repeated his view that this would be “unworkable” and “unfeasible” after the failure of the investiture vote in July, before which Iglesias had been offered one of the two deputy prime ministerial roles in the Cabinet, and three ministries.

Some of the policy points meet the UP demands, others have slight differences with the UP stance (UP wants to repeal the current labour legislation, while PSOE just wants to reform some controversial aspects) and there's a mention to Catalonia that reflects the PSOE's stance opposing a referendum on self-determination (which UP suports, although it's not a "red line" for them). In spite of the later, apparently ERC would not oppose the investiture of Sánchez in case PSOE and UP reach a deal.

Quote
The policy points announced today by the PSOE include the reversal of labor reforms implemented by the conservative PP, constitutional protection for pension rises, and tax hikes for higher earners and large companies in order to pay for a wide range of social measures.

Some of the other plans include measures to combat “abusive” rent rises, a roll-out of a free daycare system across the country, “low-emission zones” similar to the Madrid Central scheme in cities with more than 50,000 inhabitants, and a tightening of sexual assault laws to ensure that if a women “does not specifically say yes, everything else is a no.” 

The complaints of people on here aren't reflected in the polls (for now). SocioMétrica and Sigma Dos are both out with new polls that show the left gaining.

I'd take these polls with loads of salt. Currently there exists a dynamic of two opposing blocks and polls detect vote transfers between them are little to nothing. Maybe these polls conducted in summer reflect some demobilization in the right, or just summer holydays disconnection. Months before the April elections, rightwing parties were polling around 50% in some polls. However, leftwing voters mobilized for a number of reasons (fear of Vox, for instance) and the combined vote of the 'Triple Alliance' dropped to just 43% in the actual election. In case we go to elections in November, it's likely rightwing voters will mobilize and go to the polls. Also, despite some socialists are confident with results, leftwing voters might feel less motivated to show up in November than they were in April.

What is the reason Iglesias and Sanchez are so adamant on their stances?  You would think the risk of a right wing government would be enough to push one to blink?  While polls suggest PSOE will gain far from a majority so they will have to agree eventually.  While I think elections are most likely, if the parties were smart they would realize its a huge gamble and find a way out.  I suspect most progressives in Spain care more about policies than which party does it just as I suspect many on the right would accept a coalition or agreement.  Italy just formed a coalition of two parties that have even less in common so in most of Europe coalitions are the norm, although Spain doesn't have a history of them.

I'm wondering the same question. As far as I'm concerned, I care more about policies and less about power sharing. Personally I think the relationhip between PSOE and UP is too deteriorated to form a coalition governmet right now. However, I also think that Sánchez would have acted differently in case he was truly committed to reach an agreement. His offer comes less than three weeks before deadline, with little room for anything but "take it or leave it".  Possibly the best way to deal with this would be a gradualist approach, a negotiation step by step (first we agree a common platform and build confidence, then we discuss collaborative mechanisms or a coalition agreement).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 04, 2019, 07:49:40 AM
Pedro Sánchez launched 370 policy points yesterday, on paper aimed at persuading UP. Analysts say, however, they look like the PSOE platform for the upcoming November elections.

I'd take these polls with loads of salt. Currently there exists a dynamic of two opposing blocks and polls detect vote transfers between them are little to nothing. Maybe these polls conducted in summer reflect some demobilization in the right, or just summer holydays disconnection. Months before the April elections, rightwing parties were polling around 50% in some polls. However, leftwing voters mobilized for a number of reasons (fear of Vox, for instance) and the combined vote of the 'Triple Alliance' dropped to just 43% in the actual election. In case we go to elections in November, it's likely rightwing voters will mobilize and go to the polls. Also, despite some socialists are confident with results, leftwing voters might feel less motivated to show up in November than they were in April.

Worth noting that back in April it was both the left and the right who were energized. It is also worth noting that the Spanish right as a whole needs to be polling close to 50% in order to get a majority because of their division in 3 parties.

Let's do a thought experiment. Let's assume that in the repeat November election turnout will drop to 65%; which mind you would be the lowest in Spanish history, even lower than 2016 (2019 was not that high by historical standards; certainly nowhere near 1982 levels of 80% or even 2008 levels of 74%).

Let's also assume this turnout drop is exclusively because of left wing parties (split proportionally between PSOE and UP), with the right holding all their voters. The popular vote results would be thus as follows. Percentages are after excluding blank/null ballots (which I have kept equal to 2019):

Total turnout in November: 23 984 274
Vote drop April-November: 2 493 866

PSOE: 5 754 966 (24.5%)
PP: 4 373 653 (18.6%)
Cs: 4 155 665 (17.7%)
UP: 2 399 790 (10.2%)
Vox: 2 688 092 (11.4%)

Right bloc: 47.7%
Left bloc: 34.7%

Certainly a commading lead for the right of 15 points (which iirc would be the best result for the Spanish right ever, or at least on par with 2011). However, would it be enough for the right to climb over the 176 seat mark?

With this handy seat calculator (https://politibot.io/juega-a-repartir-escanos-asi-se-asignaran-segun-el-voto-el-28a/), the right would get 181 seats. So, in a repeat election a right wing majority is within the margin of error, though their chances I would put at less than 50% (this is a "perfect" scenario for the right after all). Mind you even if the right falls short and gets like 170 that doesn't mean the left will be able to form a government as that probably implies getting people like Puigdemont's JxCat to openly vote yes, which isn't happening.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (investiture failed, countdown for elections)
Post by: Velasco on September 06, 2019, 09:43:32 AM
PSOE and UP delegations met yesterday and talked for nearly five hours. However, there was no significant progress and both parties stand in their initial positions. PSOE and UP concurred they have very distinct positions, stating their willingness to continue talking in spite of their differences. UP spokepersons claim there is still room for compromise, but criticize the "immovable" attitude of the PSOE. Socialists are firm in their rejection to resume the proposal to form a coalition government they made in July. Podemos MP Ione Belarra stated at the end of the meeting that PSOE is unwilling to negotiate and showed her "concern", while MP Yolanda Díaz stated there is time to negotiate and and consider the proposals on the table. The government expects "the new means of dialog" will be completed with a meeting between Pedro Sánchez and Pablo Iglesias.

Previously and with the clear aim of pressing and encircling Podemos, Pedro Sámchez held meetings with the leaders of PRC (acting PM met in Cantabria with premier Miguel Ängel Revilla), PNV (with chairman Andoni Ortuzar in Madrid), while lieutenants José Luis Ábalos and Adriana Lastra met with ERC parliamentary spokesman Gabriel Rufián. PSOE has secured the PRC support already and the PNV endorsement is almost certain (Basque nationalists, however, were upsetted because socialists haven't contacted them this summer), while Gabriel Rufián (his conversion from parliament fool to statesman is amazing) made clear that ERC won't be an obstacle to the investiture of Sánchez and sent a not so veiled message to Pablo Iglesias (implying that maybe the Podemos leader is too obsessed with getting ministries).

Finally the negotiating teams: no changes in PSOE and some new faces in UP

PSOE: Carmen Calvo (Deputy PM), Adriana Lastra (parliamentary spokeswoman) and María Jesús Montero (Minister of Finance)

UP: Pablo Echenique (Podemos secretary for government action), Ione Belarra (MP, replaces parliamentary spokeswoman Irene Montero during her maternity leave), Yolanda Díaz (MP for Galicia en Común, IU member), Jaume Asens (MP for En Comú Podem), Enrique santiago (IU MP, secretary general of the PCE) and Juan López Uralde (MP, leader of Equo)

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/09/05/actualidad/1567669329_430319.html?rel=lom


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Velasco on September 09, 2019, 01:21:11 PM
 No contacts this weekend. PSOE and UP will resume talks tomorrow

GAD3 poll for ABC newspaper

PSOE 32.1% 137
PP 19.9% 82
Cs 14% 45
UP 13.3% 35
Vox 7.9% 14
ERC 3.8% 15
JxCAT 1.9% 7
EAJ-PNV 1.4% 7
Bildu 1% 3
NA+ 0 4% 2
Others 3.3% 3

Turnout 70%

PSOE, UP and PNV would have majority.

Even in this optimistic scenario, Sánchez and Iglesias still need to solve their differences. In case turnout falls below 70% (highly likely, imo), the left will get poorer results in November.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: mileslunn on September 09, 2019, 02:17:50 PM
It seems another election would be pointless.  While unlikely right would get a majority but not impossible if turnout falls enough, what advantage do either have?  There is no chance of the PSOE getting a majority on its own and Citizens have ruled out working with PSOE, so an agreement between PSOE-Podemos will be needed after November if they are able to form government.  Basically another election means unless in the unlikely event PSOE gets a majority on its own or right wins one, we are back to same place.  So its really in both party's interest to find a way to an agreement.  Seems we have the prisoner's dilemma here, whichever party caves will look bad short term, but long term in terms of policies it serves their interest of each to have a deal.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Velasco on September 10, 2019, 09:11:04 AM
PSOE and UP are at breaking point after four hours of fruitless talks this morning. Socialists say there's no path for agreement because UP rejects the solution they are proposing, while Pablo Echenique (Podemos) complains that PSOE is "immovable" in the"single party government". We are going to elections again.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: mileslunn on September 10, 2019, 11:43:44 AM
PSOE and UP are at breaking point after four hours of fruitless talks this morning. Socialists say there's no path for agreement because UP rejects the solution they are proposing, while Pablo Echenique (Podemos) complains that PSOE is "immovable" in the"single party government". We are going to elections again.

And what will elections solve unless the right does really win and wins on its own.  Its not as though PSOE is going to get a majority so will be back to same place again.  For Podemos they are probably better to just go along and even though a climb down, still get the best realistic outcome as after the next election likely will lose seats so less clout and if right manages to win much worse for them.

What is interesting to watch is in Spain gap between Podemos and UP is pretty small compared to gap between Five Star Movement and Democratic Party in Italy yet latter formed a coalition pretty quickly despite differences, former cannot after 5 months so go figure.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Estrella on September 10, 2019, 12:18:49 PM
What is interesting to watch is in Spain gap between Podemos and UP is pretty small compared to gap between Five Star Movement and Democratic Party in Italy yet latter formed a coalition pretty quickly despite differences, former cannot after 5 months so go figure.

I don't think it's got to do with differences or gaps as much as the fact that parties in Spain are actually 'proper' parties - they have clearly distinct ideology, longer history, larger membership and actual principles (not that UP aren't just being pig-headed at this point), while Italians are more, er, pragmatic. Also, Spanish politicians aren't really used to coalitions.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 10, 2019, 03:11:44 PM
There has also always been a ton of mistrust between Sánchez and Iglesias and between PSOE and UP. Remember, UP spent much of 2015 and 2016 trying to outright kill PSOE as the main party of the Spanish left. While they failed, it's no surprise PSOE still holds a grudge against Podemos and does not trust them because of that, while similarly Podemos views PSOE as untrustworthy.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Velasco on September 10, 2019, 03:24:20 PM
There has also always been a ton of mistrust between Sánchez and Iglesias and between PSOE and UP. Remember, UP spent much of 2015 and 2016 trying to outright kill PSOE as the main party of the Spanish left. While they failed, it's no surprise PSOE still holds a grudge against Podemos and does not trust them because of that, while similarly Podemos views PSOE as untrustworthy.

Now the context is different. Many in UP suspect one of the main reasons to call elections is that Sánchez is trying to exterminate them and pursuing a comeback of the two-party system. As some PNV spokeperson said today: neither PSOE nor UP are rising to the occasion. They are disappointing the expectations of their voters and maybe they will have to pay a price

EDIT: While there exists a huge rivalry and mistrust between PSOE and UP, they are nothing if compared with the hostility between PD and M5S in Italy. I think it's obvious PSOE and UP are lacking pragmatism and professionalism. Shame on them.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Velasco on September 11, 2019, 12:53:28 PM
This morning in parliament Pablo Iglesias asked Pedro Sánchez a face-to-face meeting to unlock the investiture, but the acting PM refused. Sánchez told the Podemos leader that, in case there is an alternative proposal to the coalition government, he can call the negotiation table. The impression is that Pedro Sánchez and spin doctor Iván Redondo are determined to go to elections and destroy Podemos, while Iglesias is making a desperate attempt to save the situation and survive. However, repetition of elections is like playing Russian roulette and we ignore what's the information held by the government. Maybe Sánchez and Redondo are gambling, in order to force Iglesias to cave in and support investiture in exchange for nothing. Recent polls report increasing pessisism on the political and economic situation. This is not a good environment to call elections.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Skye on September 12, 2019, 03:22:50 AM
El País released today an interactive map that shows the median income of Spaniards by census blocks. I think they're the same as the voting precincts, so it'd be interesting to compare it to the April election results. I'm already seeing some correlation between income and the left v. right vote.

https://elpais.com/economia/2019/09/11/actualidad/1568217626_928704.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Velasco on September 12, 2019, 02:43:07 PM
The king calls political leaders for a last round of talks

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/09/12/inenglish/1568291663_895588.html

Quote

Spain’s King Felipe VI has summoned political leaders to a last round of consultations to determine a prime ministerial candidate ahead of a possible investiture vote, according to a press release from La Zarzuela royal palace. The meetings, which will take place on September 16 and 17, will be the last before Spaniards are potentially called back to the polls once more, with a likely November 10 vote marking the fourth time in as many years that Spain holds a general election.6 

Catalan independence rally draws the smallest (but still impressive) crowd in seven years. Currently there exists division within the independence movement. The Diada takes place every year on September 11

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/11/more-than-half-a-million-call-for-catalan-independence

Quote
  More than half a million people have gathered in Barcelona on Catalonia’s national day (Diada) to renew calls for regional independence as Spain awaits the verdict in the landmark trial of 12 separatist leaders over the failed breakaway bid two years ago.

Despite the politically charged atmosphere, police in the Catalan capital said that around 600,000 people had taken part in the annual event – dramatically down on the 1 million who turned out for the previous two Diadas. 

El País released today an interactive map that shows the median income of Spaniards by census blocks. I think they're the same as the voting precincts, so it'd be interesting to compare it to the April election results. I'm already seeing some correlation between income and the left v. right vote.

https://elpais.com/economia/2019/09/11/actualidad/1568217626_928704.html

Pretty interesting. I think census sections are approximately the same, but looking at my neighbourhood I got the impression that some electoral precincts might be amalgamated. Very useful for socioeconomic patterns





Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Velasco on September 13, 2019, 03:34:18 PM

El País released today an interactive map that shows the median income of Spaniards by census blocks. I think they're the same as the voting precincts, so it'd be interesting to compare it to the April election results. I'm already seeing some correlation between income and the left v. right vote.

https://elpais.com/economia/2019/09/11/actualidad/1568217626_928704.html

Pretty interesting. I think census sections are approximately the same, but looking at my neighbourhood I got the impression that some electoral precincts might be amalgamated. Very useful for socioeconomic patterns

Right now I'm looking for income and election results in the richest and the poorest sections in my hometown, Las Palmas de GC. Census sections are the same.

The richest section that I found lies in the coastal highway (Avenida Marítima) that connects the port to the south, not far from the junction with Bravo Murillo street and a public library. District 2, Section 37 LPGC. Income 26948

PP 32%, Cs 28%, Vox 13%, PSOE 12%, UP 6%, CC 3%, Others 5%

Results in other rich sections of LPGC follow a similar pattern: PP ahead with Cs performing a strong second, PSOE is usually third and strong results for Vox (notice this party is relatively weak in the Canaries, with average results in general election between 6% and 7%)

The poorest section is located in a neighbourhood called El Polvorín, a slum area of degraded residential blocks. District 4 ,Section 59 LPGC. Income 5628

PSOE 47%, UP 14%, PP 14%, Cs 8%, CC 6%, Vox 4%, Others 6%

The poorest section in Gran Canaria island is in a place called Valle de Jinámar, located in the neighbouring municipality of Telde (District 1, Section 61. Income 4756). Pretty similar results: PSOE 43%, UP 21%, PP 10%, Cs 8%, CC 4%, Vox 4%, Others 9%.  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: mileslunn on September 13, 2019, 10:21:28 PM

El País released today an interactive map that shows the median income of Spaniards by census blocks. I think they're the same as the voting precincts, so it'd be interesting to compare it to the April election results. I'm already seeing some correlation between income and the left v. right vote.

https://elpais.com/economia/2019/09/11/actualidad/1568217626_928704.html

Pretty interesting. I think census sections are approximately the same, but looking at my neighbourhood I got the impression that some electoral precincts might be amalgamated. Very useful for socioeconomic patterns

Right now I'm looking for income and election results in the richest and the poorest sections in my hometown, Las Palmas de GC. Census sections are the same.

The richest section that I found lies in the coastal highway (Avenida Marítima) that connects the port to the south, not far from the junction with Bravo Murillo street and a public library. District 2, Section 37 LPGC. Income 26948

PP 32%, Cs 28%, Vox 13%, PSOE 12%, UP 6%, CC 3%, Others 5%

Results in other rich sections of LPGC follow a similar pattern: PP ahead with Cs performing a strong second, PSOE is usually third and strong results for Vox (notice this party is relatively weak in the Canaries, with average results in general election between 6% and 7%)

The poorest section is located in a neighbourhood called El Polvorín, a slum area of degraded residential blocks. District 4 ,Section 59 LPGC. Income 5628

PSOE 47%, UP 14%, PP 14%, Cs 8%, CC 6%, Vox 4%, Others 6%

The poorest section in Gran Canaria island is in a place called Valle de Jinámar, located in the neighbouring municipality of Telde (District 1, Section 61. Income 4756). Pretty similar results: PSOE 43%, UP 21%, PP 10%, Cs 8%, CC 4%, Vox 4%, Others 9%.  

Interesting in many Western countries income is no longer a major factor.  In UK age is main factor while in US and Canada its education.  Right does best amongst older voters regardless of income while in Canada and US areas with lots of university educated types favour left while areas with relatively few favour right regardless of income.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 14, 2019, 06:36:53 AM
Right now I'm looking for income and election results in the richest and the poorest sections in my hometown, Las Palmas de GC. Census sections are the same.

The richest section that I found lies in the coastal highway (Avenida Marítima) that connects the port to the south, not far from the junction with Bravo Murillo street and a public library. District 2, Section 37 LPGC. Income 26948

PP 32%, Cs 28%, Vox 13%, PSOE 12%, UP 6%, CC 3%, Others 5%


To be honest, that is a very surprising place for the richest precinct in town which I did not expect. The surrounding area is certainly well above the city/regional average, but not quite the richest in town (around 14000-18000€), so that precinct stands out quite a bit.

If I had been asked, I would have probably pointed out to the Ciudad Jardín area (large houses in the city center, a bit to the north of where this precinct is) or maybe the Tafira parts that fall inside LPGC (rich suburbs/exurbs, right at the edge of the municipality line)

Of course, in terms of voting places like Ciudad Jardín and Tafira see similar patterns, while similarly, other poor areas in town see similar voting patterns to the places you showed


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Velasco on September 14, 2019, 09:21:07 AM

Interesting in many Western countries income is no longer a major factor.  In UK age is main factor while in US and Canada its education.  Right does best amongst older voters regardless of income while in Canada and US areas with lots of university educated types favour left while areas with relatively few favour right regardless of income.

I'm not sure that income is no longer a factor in the UK, although I suspect patterns in Canada are quite different. Age is a major factor in Spain. PP is by far the largest party in the age group above 60, while it's only the fourth party in the age group between 18 and 24. Podemos is the preferred party or performs strongly among those voters below 35, Cs is stronger in the 35-44 group and PSOE in the 45-54. Regarding the level of education. it's often correlated to income

Right now I'm looking for income and election results in the richest and the poorest sections in my hometown, Las Palmas de GC. Census sections are the same.

The richest section that I found lies in the coastal highway (Avenida Marítima) that connects the port to the south, not far from the junction with Bravo Murillo street and a public library. District 2, Section 37 LPGC. Income 26948

PP 32%, Cs 28%, Vox 13%, PSOE 12%, UP 6%, CC 3%, Others 5%


To be honest, that is a very surprising place for the richest precinct in town which I did not expect. The surrounding area is certainly well above the city/regional average, but not quite the richest in town (around 14000-18000€), so that precinct stands out quite a bit.

If I had been asked, I would have probably pointed out to the Ciudad Jardín area (large houses in the city center, a bit to the north of where this precinct is) or maybe the Tafira parts that fall inside LPGC (rich suburbs/exurbs, right at the edge of the municipality line)

Of course, in terms of voting places like Ciudad Jardín and Tafira see similar patterns, while similarly, other poor areas in town see similar voting patterns to the places you showed

It surprised me a bit, but I've been at someone's apartment located in that precinct and it's a luxury flat. I know Ciudad Jardín better, though. There are precincts above 20,000 located in Ciudad Jardín, Tafira and in a newer development called La Minilla. I overlooked this, but Cs came first in some of La Minilla precincts. Similarly Cs is the strongest party in some new urban developments north of Madrid, whose inhabitants are usually young professionals.

District 4, Section 73 LPGC. Income 20363

Cs 27%, PSOE 21%, PP 15%, UP 12%, Vox 12%, CC 4%, Others 8%

As you see, PP is surprisingly low for a high income precinct (but Vox is quite high). I think the differences in behaviour are due to the younger age of the residents.

Link to the map of results by precinct:

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/05/01/actualidad/1556730293_254945.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: parochial boy on September 14, 2019, 10:53:42 AM

I'm not sure that income is no longer a factor in the UK, although I suspect patterns in Canada are quite different. Age is a major factor in Spain. PP is by far the largest party in the age group above 60, while it's only the fourth party in the age group between 18 and 24. Podemos is the preferred party or performs strongly among those voters below 35, Cs is stronger in the 35-44 group and PSOE in the 45-54. Regarding the level of education. it's often correlated to income

I know they're probably here somewhere; but have you got breakdowns by party by age somewhere?

Curious to see how PSOE and Vox did by age group.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Velasco on September 14, 2019, 05:42:15 PM

I'm not sure that income is no longer a factor in the UK, although I suspect patterns in Canada are quite different. Age is a major factor in Spain. PP is by far the largest party in the age group above 60, while it's only the fourth party in the age group between 18 and 24. Podemos is the preferred party or performs strongly among those voters below 35, Cs is stronger in the 35-44 group and PSOE in the 45-54. Regarding the level of education. it's often correlated to income

I know they're probably here somewhere; but have you got breakdowns by party by age somewhere?

Curious to see how PSOE and Vox did by age group.

No, but the data and crosstabs must be available in the CIS post-election survey released in May. The graph below shows the distribution of party vote by age group, according to the CIS. The most remarkable thing is that about a half oh PP voters are older than 65. Vox is more successful among voters aged between 35 and 54, with a peak in the 35-44 segment. Regarding the leftwing vote, the graph shows that Podemos has a strong base among the youngsters and the PSOE vote grows with age.

()

Some findings on the party vote and interactive graphs

http://www.rtve.es/noticias/20190430/datos-hablan-radiografia-del-voto-voto-grupos-sociales/1930141.shtml

1) The PP vote is stronger in municipalities with higher proportion of retirees

2) The PSOE vote tends to be stronger in municipalities with higher unemployment rate, as well in the municipalities with higher proportion of people with primary education or without education

3) There is a positive correlation between income and the vote for Cs and Vox, but not with the PP. The vote for Cs and Vox drops sharply in the older segments that overwhelmingly vote for PP.

4) The vote for UP is stronger in municipalities with a higher proportion of urban land. The level of education is positively correlated to the vote for UP (but not income).

5) The vote for Vox is stronger in younger populations and among males. Vox performs better in high income municipalities and in those with a higher proportion of foreign nationals registered. Regarding to the latter, I'd say that it's true for the Vox strongholds in Almería or Murcia (El Ejido, Torre Pacheco), but the neighbourhoods in the main cities where Vox gets better results are usually the most affluent and not the places where immigrants use to live.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Velasco on September 14, 2019, 11:42:23 PM
I found the data by age group in the CIS post-election survey.

http://www.cis.es/cis/export/sites/default/-Archivos/Marginales/3240_3259/3248/cru3248edad.html

In question 23R respondents answer spontaneously which party they voted in the last general election. Total results:

PSOE 27.2, PP 10.2, Cs 10.8, UP (plus ECP) 12, VOX 4.9, ERC 3.6, JxCAT 1.9, PNV 1.1, Bildu 1

Keep in mind this is raw data including don't know/don't answer and there is a sample bias. Breakdown by age group is as follows

18-24: PSOE 18.4, PP 4.9, Cs 13.5, UP 21.3, VOX 3.3, ERC 3.8, JxCAT 1.6, PNV 0.2, Bildu 2.7
25-34: PSOE 21, PP 4.5, Cs 13.7, UP 20.8, VOX 6.6, ERC 3.5, JxCAT 0.2, PNV 0.7, Bildu 1.1
35-44: PSOE 24.1, PP 6.3, Cs 13.1, UP 14.4, VOX 7.7, ERC 4.4, JxCAT 0.5, PNV 0.5, Bildu 1.3
45-54: PSOE 29.6, PP 7.2, Cs 11.6, UP 11, VOX 5.3, ERC 3.5, JxCAT 1.8, PNV 0.8, Bildu 0.7
55-64: PSOE 30.9, PP 10.9, Cs 9,UP 11.5, VOX 2.8, ERC 4.4, JxCAT 1.8, PNV 1.5, Bildu 1.2
65+: PSOE 31, PP 19.5, Cs 7.1, UP 4.1, VOX 3.4, ERC 2.5, JxCAT 1.3, PNV 2, Bildu 0.2


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Skye on September 15, 2019, 05:05:25 AM
()()

This is Valladolid. The two brown-ish precincts (by income) correspond to Las Viudas (in Las Delicias) and 29 de Octubre (in Pajarillos), which, if I understand correctly, are Franco-era block housing projects. I saw Las Viudas once, it wasn't a pretty place.

The precinct with the darkest green is in the city centre, (overall a high-income area) and it seems it's the place with the highest income in Castile and Leon. PSOE+UP combined only took 10% of the vote there.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: FredLindq on September 15, 2019, 05:12:59 AM
So voters that lived under Franco’s rule actually vote conservative in much higher proportion than other voters?!



I'm not sure that income is no longer a factor in the UK, although I suspect patterns in Canada are quite different. Age is a major factor in Spain. PP is by far the largest party in the age group above 60, while it's only the fourth party in the age group between 18 and 24. Podemos is the preferred party or performs strongly among those voters below 35, Cs is stronger in the 35-44 group and PSOE in the 45-54. Regarding the level of education. it's often correlated to income

I know they're probably here somewhere; but have you got breakdowns by party by age somewhere?

Curious to see how PSOE and Vox did by age group.

No, but the data and crosstabs must be available in the CIS post-election survey released in May. The graph below shows the distribution of party vote by age group, according to the CIS. The most remarkable thing is that about a half oh PP voters are older than 65. Vox is more successful among voters aged between 35 and 54, with a peak in the 35-44 segment. Regarding the leftwing vote, the graph shows that Podemos has a strong base among the youngsters and the PSOE vote grows with age.

()

Some findings on the party vote and interactive graphs

http://www.rtve.es/noticias/20190430/datos-hablan-radiografia-del-voto-voto-grupos-sociales/1930141.shtml

1) The PP vote is stronger in municipalities with higher proportion of retirees

2) The PSOE vote tends to be stronger in municipalities with higher unemployment rate, as well in the municipalities with higher proportion of people with primary education or without education

3) There is a positive correlation between income and the vote for Cs and Vox, but not with the PP. The vote for Cs and Vox drops sharply in the older segments that overwhelmingly vote for PP.

4) The vote for UP is stronger in municipalities with a higher proportion of urban land. The level of education is positively correlated to the vote for UP (but not income).

5) The vote for Vox is stronger in younger populations and among males. Vox performs better in high income municipalities and in those with a higher proportion of foreign nationals registered. Regarding to the latter, I'd say that it's true for the Vox strongholds in Almería or Murcia (El Ejido, Torre Pacheco), but the neighbourhoods in the main cities where Vox gets better results are usually the most affluent and not the places where immigrants use to live.




Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 15, 2019, 05:55:26 AM
What I can take from these analysis is that income is probably still the most important factor on determining whether you vote left or right in Spain; unlike in other western countries.

However other factors more popular elsewhere like age and education still play an important role as they determine which party within the left or the right you vote for. If you are a poor young urban person with college in Madrid you are probably a Podemos voter; while if you are a poor illiterate rural farmer in Andalucia you are a PSOE voter.

Same applies on the right, if you are a rich suburban young and educated person in Madrid, you are voting Cs, while if you are a rich old retiree with only primary school education in Castille you are probably voting PP; and if you are a middle aged voter in a town with a lot of immigrants in Murcia you are voting Vox.

So voters that lived under Franco’s rule actually vote conservative in much higher proportion than other voters?!


Well, let's see. Franco died 44 years ago, though in practice to even have a memory of him you would need to be in your 50s, and to have a meaningful amount of time you would be in your 60s.

So the answer is yes and no, but overall leaning towards yes. It's hard to say because of the weird way age crosstabs are done here (compared to other countries), but probably.

Old voters who lived the Franco era definitely are massive PP hacks. PP is almost majority retirees! However, Cs scores very low among them and even Vox is only average. Meanwhile PSOE does fairly well among old voters, albeit not as much as PP.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: parochial boy on September 15, 2019, 08:25:34 AM
I know the crosstabs will be tiny. But that's a hell of an age gap between PNV and Bildu - not even sure you can put it down to the ETA ceasefire as they were still active until quite recently


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Velasco on September 15, 2019, 01:13:35 PM
I know the crosstabs will be tiny. But that's a hell of an age gap between PNV and Bildu - not even sure you can put it down to the ETS ceasefire as they were still active until quite recently

The PNV is a broad tent nationalist party, ideologically moderate, champion of the Basque traditions and self-rule. Additionally it has the aura of the natural party of government. I'd say the PNV has all the conditions to be the preferred party of the old Basque Country folk. Probably it was the same before the ETA ceasefire.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Velasco on September 15, 2019, 08:54:19 PM
The consultation round of the king with the different parties starts on Monday. Consultations follow an increasing order, from the smallest party to the largest. ERC and Bildu won't participate due to their republican and separatist character, but I think a JxCAT representative will meet with Felipe VI. The attitude of peripheral nationalist parties is allowing the investiture of Pedro Sánchez, either with affirmative vote or abstention and with the exception of JxCAT that would vote against. PP and Cs remain in their opposition, while UP would abstain in an eventual investiture vote in case there is not a last minute agreement with the PSOE. The odds are not good. Pedro Sánchez and Pablo Iglesias will meet the king on Tuesday.

A couple of days ago, Pedro Sánchez rejected a last offer for a "trial coalition government" made by Pablo Iglesias (it sounded to me an unnecessary humiliation, tbh).

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/09/13/inenglish/1568368550_238353.html

Quote
    Spain’s acting Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez has rejected the latest offer made by the leftist group Unidas Podemos in a bid to reach a governing deal that would prevent a repeat general election in November.

In their first telephone conversation in a month-and-a-half, Podemos chief Pablo Iglesias and the leader of the Socialist Party (PSOE) talked for 10 minutes about the possibility of a “trial coalition” between both political forces (...)

Iglesias offered to stay together until mid-2020, after which the PSOE could end the relationship if it felt it was not working. Even then, Unidas Podemos would continue to support Sánchez throughout the rest of the political term.

But Sánchez, who is seeking to head a minority government with external support, rejected the offer

Meanwhile Galicia premier Alberto Núñez Feijóo suggested a grand coalition between PSOE and PP. “Sánchez should talk with the rest of the chamber and tell the PP: "I propose a governing coalition, a grand coalition in our country because I don’t trust Podemos", said Alberto Núñez Feijóo.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Skye on September 16, 2019, 05:13:41 AM


This looks like big news.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Oryxslayer on September 16, 2019, 07:53:18 AM


This looks like big news.

The sad thing is that Sanchez's ego might still prevail, he seems focused on punishing Podemos rather than forming a government right now.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Lord Halifax on September 16, 2019, 08:03:19 AM


This looks like big news.

Please translate if you're going to post tweets in Spanish


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Skye on September 16, 2019, 08:29:16 AM

This looks like big news.

Please translate if you're going to post tweets in Spanish
Right, sorry.

"BREAKING NEWS: Albert Rivera offers the PP to abstain together to invest Pedro Sanchez in exchange of:
-Breaking off the (PSOE+GBai+Podemos) deal in Navarra.
-Negotiate article 155 for Catalonia.  They'd commit to pardon those imprisoned of the 'procés'.
-An economic program not to raise taxes.

(That's the best I could do).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 16, 2019, 08:43:20 AM
PSOE has already replied to Cs' offer. They claim that Cs should abstain as they already fulfill the 3 conditions by Cs.

https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2019/09/16/5d7f74a1fc6c8300768b45cc.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Velasco on September 16, 2019, 10:07:45 AM
"BREAKING NEWS: Albert Rivera offers the PP to abstain together to invest Pedro Sanchez in exchange of:
-Breaking off the (PSOE+GBai+Podemos) deal in Navarra.
-Negotiate article 155 for Catalonia.  They'd commit not to pardon those imprisoned of the 'procés'.
-An economic program not to raise taxes.

(That's the best I could do).

- Cs leader demands in first point that socialists break the deal with Geroa Bai (moderate Basque nationalist) and Podemos in Navarra. This region is located next to the Basque Country in northern Spain. Navarra is among the wealthiest Spanish regions, but it's also a messy place (politically and demographically). The north of the region is Basque speaking and has a strong Basque nationalist vote, while the southern part is Castilian speaking and the main parties sre rightwing regionalist UPN and PSOE. The largest force in regional elections was Navarra Suma (NA+), a coalition incorporating UPN, PP and Cs. However NA+ only won 20 of 50 seats (6 short of a majority) and it has no potential allies in the regional parliament. The alternative coalition led by the PSOE has only 23 seats, so the socialist candidate needed the abstention of 5 EH Bildu members to be elected premier in a second vote. EH Bildu is a leftwing separatist coalition of Basque parties that still carries the stigma of being 'the "heir of ETA", so the national "constitutionalist" parties have established a cordon sanitaire. Despite socialists rejected to negotiate anything with EH Bildu, the Spanish Right claims the abstention of the Bildu members was not for free and there must be some agreement under the table. Also, UPN has been always the champion of the Navarrese integrity against the region's annexation to the Basque Country envisioned by Basque nationalism. There is not a majority supporting the annexation and moderate nationalists are aware of that, so the issue is not on the table. In short, the Right demands that PSOE gives up the region in the name of some sacred interests.

- The second point refers to the article 155 of the Spanish Constitution, which allows central government to impose direct rule on regions when constitutional order is in danger. It was implemented when the Parliament of Catalonia made a proclamation of unilateral independence two years ago. Implementing 155 preventively for no good reason is likely unconstitutional, but that's what the Spanish Right demands. PP and Cs also demand to Sánchez a clear statement denying pardon to the  Catalan separatist leaders that currently are awaiting the rule of the Suoreme Court.

- The third point is commitment to tax cuts.

Pedro Sánchez replied there's no reason to oppose his investiture by PP and Cs, because the three conditions are met already. He claims there's no deal with Bildu in Navarra and the regional government is constitutionalist, also that central government watches for the constitutional order in Catalonia (and would implement 155 if necessary) and the PSOE platform incorporates tax cuts for lower and middle classes.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: mileslunn on September 16, 2019, 02:18:50 PM
Hasn't PSOE program involved some tax hikes, but only on large banks and only on individuals making over 130,000 Euros?  While there may be issues with this making Spain less attractive for business, its not like there are that many voters who this will impact.  Will be interesting as my understanding is if Cs + Podemos abstain, then investiture happens.  However passing the budget is the trick and will probably have to rely on Podemos + regionalist parties so that maybe a reason Sanchez wants election so doesn't have to rely on regionalist parties to pass budgets.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Lord Halifax on September 16, 2019, 02:32:24 PM
About when would a new election take place?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: mileslunn on September 16, 2019, 02:42:48 PM
About when would a new election take place?

November 10th.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Velasco on September 16, 2019, 11:25:08 PM
Hasn't PSOE program involved some tax hikes, but only on large banks and only on individuals making over 130,000 Euros?  While there may be issues with this making Spain less attractive for business, its not like there are that many voters who this will impact.  Will be interesting as my understanding is if Cs + Podemos abstain, then investiture happens.  However passing the budget is the trick and will probably have to rely on Podemos + regionalist parties so that maybe a reason Sanchez wants election so doesn't have to rely on regionalist parties to pass budgets.

Banks, companies and high income individuals enjoy tax benefits through vehicles like capital investment funds. Raising taxes on them is a socialdemocratic policy that pursues income redistribution through social policies. That's something popular among people left of the centre. Pedro Sánchez would like to strengthen PSOE, in order he doesn't have to rely on the Catalan separatist parties. Other regionalists like PNV or PRC are not a major problem.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: mileslunn on September 17, 2019, 02:09:56 AM
Unless right wins a majority, how exactly would a stalemate be resolved after election as almost no chance PSOE wins a majority so would PSOE and podemos agree after or would same thing happen again?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Velasco on September 17, 2019, 04:21:28 AM
Unless right wins a majority, how exactly would a stalemate be resolved after election as almost no chance PSOE wins a majority so would PSOE and podemos agree after or would same thing happen again?

There is no clear answer for that.  Actually PSOE and UP have a lot of coincidences on social and economic policies, which allowed them to arrange a budget arrangement that ultimately failed due to the opposition of Catalan nationalists leading to the April elections. On the other hand, their differences on issues like the referendum in Catalonia are not insurmountable, as Pablo Iglesias snd his Catalan allies (En Comú Podem) stated they would follow the policy line of the major partner without giving up their principles. There's something called "negotiating the differences" that is a common practice in coalition agreements. Their problems are more related to the bad personal relationship between their leaders, as well it's obvious that Sánchez never wanted a coalition government and Iglesias made mistakes. Currently Spanish politics is driven by personality rather than ideology. There exists a problem of "hyper leadership". The new parties Podemos and Ciudadanos are basically vehicles and personality cults for Pablo Iglesias and Albert Rivera,  while Pedro Sánchez became the most powerful secretary general in PSOE's history after defeating Susana Diaz against all odds in primary elections. The relationship between Pedro Sánchez and Albert Rivera is even worse. Rivera sbandoned the centre and committed himself to become the leader of the Spanish Right, rejecting pressure from big entrepeneurs and Macron to approach PSOE. The business world and the European Commission don't like Podemos and would have approved a PSOE-Cs deal, while the ideologically flexible Sánchez wants a turn to the centre (preferably governing alone). Anyway the relationship with Rivera is non-existent and the 'offer' of the Cs leader is just a tactical move motivated by the bad polling and the need to create narrative.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 17, 2019, 06:17:45 AM
Apparently the BBVA foundation made a study about the social and political attitudes of Spain and the 5 largest EU countries (France, Spain, Italy, UK and Germany). Here are some findings of the politics part of the study for Spain and for the average of the 5 countries. The study is extremely interesting regardless.

https://www.fbbva.es/noticias/los-europeos-confian-en-el-estado-y-en-sus-grupos-profesionales-e-instituciones-pero-no-en-los-politicos/

-Spain has the most self-identified left wing population of the 5 countries. 20% of Spaniards identify as far leftists (0-2) compared to 10% elsewhere. The average is also at 4.4/10 compared to 5/10 for Europe at large

-This gets amplified among young voters aged 18-24. A whopping 31% of them identify as far leftists while that number is only 8% in Europe. There is also a clear correlation with young people being left and old people being right in Spain (minus a spike for the left at age 55-64) while that correlation does not exist in Europe at-large.

-There is also a correlation with education, with higher educated people being more left wing. This correlation does also exist in Europe at-large though

-Interestingly, Spain has an slightly above average amoung of far rightists (8-10) as well: 11% compared to 10% for Europe at large.

-Democracy's performance in Spain is rated as bad (getting a 4.6/10), though that is still higher than elsewhere in Europe minus Germany. More interestingly, there is no correlation by education here in Spain, while everywhere else people with higher education think democracy is working better than those with low education

-Spain has the lowest approval rating for "traditional parties", tied with Germany at 55%

-When voting, Spanish people value ideology much higher than Europe at-large and the knowledge of party leaders lower than Europe at-large

-74% of Spanish people believe the state should guarantee a minimum and decent living standard. This is much higher than in the rest of Europe, with the average being at 51%

-Spanish people also think more than Europe at-large that it's the responsability of the state to "control business profits", "provide healthcare coverage to all citizens" or "control salaries", among other traditional left wing policies

-Spanish people support a more egalitarian income distribution much more than the rest of Europe. Income redistribution in favour of equality is above water 49-43 in Spain while it's down 29-64 elsewhere

-Regarding this point, while there is a correlation by education both in Spain and in the rest of Europe (with educated people supporting income redistribution less), the correlation is much stronger in the rest of Europe (in fact in Spain it's actually "middle educated" people who support that and not the lowest educated!)

-The EU has a much higher approval rating in Spain than in the rest of Europe, being at +48 approval compared to +25 approval in Europe at large


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Skye on September 17, 2019, 01:36:21 PM
https://elpais.com/politica/2019/09/16/actualidad/1568614552_569307.html

Looks like we're heading for a new election, bois.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: mileslunn on September 17, 2019, 01:40:38 PM
And unless turnout is low and right wins majority, what exactly would be accomplished by then.  Realize it will happen, but if no party bends after, same problem, so any ideas on whom might bend next time around as doubt people want a fifth election.  Seems like PSOE and Podemos are willing to gamble on this as right while not doing too well in polls now could win, especially if Cs and PP run joint candidates.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Velasco on September 17, 2019, 02:11:17 PM
It's happening


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: mileslunn on September 17, 2019, 02:16:32 PM

Could there be another election after this, or do you think if inconclusive again one party will bend to avoid another election.  At this point it seems only a PSOE majority (next to impossible) or right wing majority (possible but not most likely outcome) only way to allow investiture next time around.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 17, 2019, 03:30:43 PM

Could there be another election after this, or do you think if inconclusive again one party will bend to avoid another election.  At this point it seems only a PSOE majority (next to impossible) or right wing majority (possible but not most likely outcome) only way to allow investiture next time around.

Well, there is another option: someone caves (whether it's PSOE, Cs, PP or Podemos).

In my opinion, the following scenarios are possible:

1) Right wing majority: The right forms a government. Whether that is PP-Cs with Vox outside support or a 3 way, I don't know, but it seems the right would be more responsible. However, I would personally love if the right was also unable to form a government and we went to infinite elections :P

2) JxCat as the key vote: This almost definitely guarantees a 3rd round of elections. The only possibility would be a PSOE government propped up by the centre-right, which probably is not happening. If Puigdemont's party ends up as the decisive vote, Spain goes to a third election.

3) Scenario similar to the current one: Probably the most likely scenario, albeit with some variations (PSOE+Cs probably won't have a majority again). Still, basically the entire country gets a big case of Deja Vu. Someone still needs to cave

4) PSOE+moderate nationalists/regionalists gets a majority: Unlike what is thought, PSOE does not technically need a majority to win. Assuming Podemos keeps abstaining after another election, just a small increase of PSOE and decrease of the right would be enough for a PSOE minority. Here's the scenario I'm describing, but with current numbers:

Yes: PSOE+PNV+Compromis+PRC (131)
Abstain: Podemos+ERC+Bildu+CC
No: PP+Cs+Vox+JxCat+NS (156)

So PSOE needs to basically gain around 13 seats or so, while at the same time the right loses just as many. PSOE getting into the low-mid 140 seats while Podemos and the nationalists hold is certainly concievable; just not particularly likely.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: mileslunn on September 17, 2019, 03:55:55 PM
How likely is a right wing majority.  Polls don't show it, but with low turnout I've heard that tends to favour the right.  Also if right wins won't there be huge re-incriminations on both parties on the left why they blew this when there were so many opportunities to find a way out.  If a repeat of the status quo, I have a tough time not seeing at least one party caving.  My guess is between Cs, UP, and PSOE, whichever party loses most seats will have greatest interest in caving while any party who gains has none.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 17, 2019, 04:03:47 PM
How likely is a right wing majority.  Polls don't show it, but with low turnout I've heard that tends to favour the right.  Also if right wins won't there be huge re-incriminations on both parties on the left why they blew this when there were so many opportunities to find a way out.  If a repeat of the status quo, I have a tough time not seeing at least one party caving.  My guess is between Cs, UP, and PSOE, whichever party loses most seats will have greatest interest in caving while any party who gains has none.

If the math I did a while back is accurate, a right wing majority becomes possible if turnout drops below 66% or so (coincidentally, also the level of turnout in 2016).

However that math made the assumption that no votes would change in the right (it's not impossible to see Cs drop and the electoral system ing them over) and that literally all right wing voters would turn out again, which is probaly unrealistic even if their turnout will hold much better.

Also, your guess is probably right. However it's worth noting that if polling is accurate Cs is the party that is likeliest to lose seats, yet if they lose seats a PSOE+Cs deal becomes unlikely.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: xelas81 on September 17, 2019, 04:44:29 PM

Could there be another election after this, or do you think if inconclusive again one party will bend to avoid another election.  At this point it seems only a PSOE majority (next to impossible) or right wing majority (possible but not most likely outcome) only way to allow investiture next time around.

Well, there is another option: someone caves (whether it's PSOE, Cs, PP or Podemos).

In my opinion, the following scenarios are possible:

1) Right wing majority: The right forms a government. Whether that is PP-Cs with Vox outside support or a 3 way, I don't know, but it seems the right would be more responsible. However, I would personally love if the right was also unable to form a government and we went to infinite elections :P

2) JxCat as the key vote: This almost definitely guarantees a 3rd round of elections. The only possibility would be a PSOE government propped up by the centre-right, which probably is not happening. If Puigdemont's party ends up as the decisive vote, Spain goes to a third election.

3) Scenario similar to the current one: Probably the most likely scenario, albeit with some variations (PSOE+Cs probably won't have a majority again). Still, basically the entire country gets a big case of Deja Vu. Someone still needs to cave

4) PSOE+moderate nationalists/regionalists gets a majority: Unlike what is thought, PSOE does not technically need a majority to win. Assuming Podemos keeps abstaining after another election, just a small increase of PSOE and decrease of the right would be enough for a PSOE minority. Here's the scenario I'm describing, but with current numbers:

Yes: PSOE+PNV+Compromis+PRC (131)
Abstain: Podemos+ERC+Bildu+CC
No: PP+Cs+Vox+JxCat+NS (156)

So PSOE needs to basically gain around 13 seats or so, while at the same time the right loses just as many. PSOE getting into the low-mid 140 seats while Podemos and the nationalists hold is certainly concievable; just not particularly likely.

Is there any possibility of getting JxCat to abstain?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (countdown for elections, deadline on Sept 23)
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 17, 2019, 04:47:33 PM
Is there any possibility of getting JxCat to abstain?

Probably not given that JxCat seems to be now the "tough" party that wants independence at all costs (only slightly less so than CUP) while ERC is now the "moderate" party that wants dialogue and what not.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: mileslunn on September 17, 2019, 07:06:31 PM
What is amazing here is it seems the left really shot themselves in the foot.  Podemos could have voted for investiture earlier which was a modest coalition, but they wanted more influence.  Likewise Sanchez could have taken the deal of 1 year, but it seems the two had bigger egos.  It will be interesting to see what their parties think if right wins.  My guess is both are fairly confident that won't happen, but even though no post election poll suggests right is anywhere close to a majority things can change during a campaign.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: P. Clodius Pulcher did nothing wrong on September 17, 2019, 09:27:25 PM
Iglesias is going to torpedo his own side just because Sanchez wouldn't give him Haciendas (per my grandmother). Oh well, elections are always fun!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on September 18, 2019, 01:25:29 AM

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/09/17/inenglish/1568731342_962226.html

Quote
Spain is closer than ever to its fourth general election in as many years, after its political parties failed to reach a governing deal in the wake of the inconclusive April 28 polls. Despite months of negotiations, no agreement has been reached between the Socialist Party (PSOE), which won most seats at the April vote but fell short of a majority, and its most likely partner, left-wing Unidas Podemos. Acting Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez has also been unable to strike any kind of deal with the two other biggest parties on Spain’s political spectrum, the conservative Popular Party (PP) and Ciudadanos (Citizens).

Following established procedure, for the last two days Spain’s King Felipe VI has been meeting with the leaders of parties with a congressional presence to see whether Sánchez had enough support among the deputies in Spain’s lower house of parliament, Congress, to be voted back into office as prime minister.

After the round of meetings concluded, Meritxell Batet, the speaker of Congress, went to meet the king to discuss his conclusions. After that encounter, the Royal Household released an official statement saying that the king would not be presenting a candidate. Felipe VI, the document read, “has concluded that there is no candidate who counts on the necessary support for the Congress of Deputies to lend him its confidence.”

Barring any last-minute surprises, parliament will be dissolved next week and a repeat general election called for November 10.

One last-ditch attempt is, however, still possible. Formally speaking, no deadline has passed today. The last moment that an investiture vote could take place is by midnight on September 23. This means that the king could still propose a candidate should Spain’s political parties inform him that someone has the support for an investiture vote, but they would have to do this deal between Wednesday and Thursday of this week in order to beat the procedural clock.

Pedro Sánchez made a statement yesterday at 21:00 (CET) n which he repeated the word "moderation" 4 or 5 times. It's not difficult to imagine on which axes the acting PM will run his campaign: moderation, stability and turn to the centre. Sánchez also said that, despite signs of economic downturn, his government won't leave the vulnerable behind, Also, Sánchez claimed that he did his best to reach an investiture agreement and mentioned the "five offers" made to UP. In that regard the acting PM sounded fake to me.

The relationship between PSOE and UP is destroyed. A leftist coalition government will never happen and I doubt that Pablo Iglesias or Irene Montero accept a confidence and supply agreement. Rather my impression is that a Portuguese path is discarded, even though IU and other partners in UP would like that option. International context is not favourable to expansionary fiscal policy (German slowdown is not affecting Spain by the moment, but possibly it will).

The last offer made by Albert Rivera seems to be a late and botched attempt to put back on the centrist track. Maybe it's a first step to an approach to PSOE, in case there is not a rightwing majority. Badly and late, Rivera might come closer to the place where Macron, Valls or the Cs 'social liberals' want. But it's possible that Rivera still dreams to become PM some day, even though becoming the leader of the Spanish Right iseems an unattainable goal. Sánchez clearly prefers a deal with Cs, but the approach won't happen before a new election takes place. The reasons are that Sánchez wants to strengthen PSOE and weaken Cs, as well he can't lose votes in the left. On election night, the socialist crowd attending Sánchez's speech chanted "with Rivera NO". Sánchez smiled and said he got the message.   


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: mileslunn on September 18, 2019, 03:42:07 AM
So basically unless right wins a majority no government.  I would think if a stalemate someone would cave after or one of the parties would change leaders.  How likely do you think it is the right wins this time?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on September 18, 2019, 05:00:51 AM
So basically unless right wins a majority no government.  I would think if a stalemate someone would cave after or one of the parties would change leaders.  How likely do you think it is the right wins this time?

The result is fairly unpredictable, but the chances of a rightwing majority are slim unless PP and Cs run together. Casado proposed a joint list called "España Suma" (similar to the coalition between UPN, PP and Cs operating in Navarre), but Rivera rejected the offer and Vox will run candidates in all constituencies. Running in three separate lists, rightwing parties only have a chance in case of massive abstention in the left. Pedro Sánchez is seeking to improve PSOE results, in order to force opposition parties to cave in and allow him to govern. I think Sánchez expects that Cs results in November are weak and Rivera changes his attitude by then.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: mileslunn on September 18, 2019, 11:42:28 AM
Would that mean a more centrist government say cancelling things like tax hikes for rich and banks, smaller minimum wage increase?  Would be good for EU as Cs and PSOE most pro-EU and removes the Catalonia question.  If UP does bad enough might they like before the last election have a supply and confidence with PSOE without supporting them?  Don't see a coalition between PSOE and UP unless the unthinkable of big UP gains and PSOE losing ground, but that seems unlikely.  Also Sanchez might be hoping election fatigue will get enough abstentions, but then he has to pass a budget which could be a challenge.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on September 18, 2019, 12:30:23 PM
Would that mean a more centrist government say cancelling things like tax hikes for rich and banks, smaller minimum wage increase?  Would be good for EU as Cs and PSOE most pro-EU and removes the Catalonia question.  

Maybe. Certainly Cs stands for indiscriminate tax cuts and PSOE might be tempted to take a more liberal and less socialdemocratic turn. Anyway I don't think that's a good thing. Many people believe the rich and the banks don't pay enough axes and they enjoy much more deductions and tax benefits than salaried workers, whom bear the brunt of the tax burden. On the other hand, the average tax burden in Spain is relatively low if compared to other European countries. Raising minimum wage is necessary to increase the purchasing power and stimulate domestic consumption. Currently Spain is suffering too much temporary employment and too low wages. A deal between PSOE and Cs by no means removes the Catalan question. On the contrary, the Cs radical stance only contributes to set fire to the flames. I broadly concur the approach of the government led by Sánchez was correct. Dialogue and rule of the law. The Catalan question is very complex anyway and Sánchez has stated it will take years to solve it (in case there exists a solution). To be honest, the manic insistence of Cs leader Albert with article 155 (imposition of direct rule in Catalonia) makes me think of Modi's intervention in Kashmir. I hope Rivera will never be in the government, for the good of the country.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: mileslunn on September 18, 2019, 01:48:32 PM
I don't see an agreement between C's and PSOE with current leadership, but if Cs do bad enough might be replaced by a new leader.  On tax cuts for the rich, that will only happen if right wins, but another hung parliament might result in status quo as opposed to hikes on rich and banks that Sanchez and Iglesias favour.  As compared to other European countries, Spain's top rates are comparable to Germany, UK, and Italy, but lower than Portugal and France and would still be even with a 4% hike (note both those two appear similar, but Portugal tacks on a 5% solidarity contribution and social security taxes are not capped like in Spain while in France they have a separate social tax of almost 10%).  As for minimum wage, Spain is well below EU average, mind you average salaries in Mediterranean countries tend to be on the low side with only the Eastern European countries havine even lower ones. 

I wonder if Sanchez hopes that he can just get C's + podemos to abstain since as long as PP + Vox don't gain too much having both abstain would get him over the finish line but would be an unstable government.  Either way I think election fatigue will make a 3rd election unlikely and whatever parties gain ground will stand firm and those who lose ground will cave.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 19, 2019, 10:47:35 AM
Apparently memes have invaded our own dimension.

A TV presenter named called Risto Mejide, who presents a program in Spanish TV is going to form his own party and run in the general elections in Madrid.

His party name is "Peor No lo Haremos" (We can't do worse) and his platform allegedly includes taking away the politicians' salaries as long as there is not a government in place, that people found guilty of corruption should return the illegally appropiated money, strengthening separation of powers and eliminating the lifetime salaries some retired politicians get (most notably former PMs). He is also pledging to only run for 1 term.

https://www.lavanguardia.com/television/20190919/47478787551/risto-mejide-candidato-elecciones-generales-10n-partido-politico-pnlh-todo-es-mentira.html



Quote
#PNLH is running in Madrid constituency and we need signatures to run!

Assuming he does end up running for real, he needs 3% of the vote to get in in Madrid. Which is low enough that it should be achievable but who knows.

I could see this going anywhere from Spanish 5Star to Spanish Die PARTEI lol


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on September 19, 2019, 11:33:39 AM
PSOE won the April elections from the left, but this time is seeking to win over disgruntled centrist voters

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/09/19/inenglish/1568878835_465224.html

Quote
The Socialist Party (PSOE), which has been leading a caretaker government since the parliamentary election of April 28, will now try to steal voters away from Ciudadanos (Citizens), a party that gained national prominence on a liberal-progressive agenda but that has lately shifted to the right, crafting alliances with the conservative Popular Party (PP) and the far-right Vox while shunning any deals with the PSOE.

PSOE strategists feel that their party will no longer be able to attract many more voters from the leftist Unidas Podemos group, and they have now set their sights on the more progressive followers of Ciudadanos, who could number around a million people.

Some sources in the PSOE, however, are skeptical about this plan and believe that many disgruntled Ciudadanos voters will simply abstain instead of switching allegiances.

But party leaders believe that there are many opportunities to be found in Catalonia, Ciudadanos’ home region and the place where this party started to grow on an anti-separatist message. “There are a lot of borderline voters there who once voted for us, and we think we can bring them back by defending dialogue [with Catalan nationalist leaders] within the bounds of the Constitution,” said one source in the PSOE leadership.

The PSOE sees itself as an attractive alternative for non-separatist Catalans who oppose Unidas Podemos’s calls for a legal referendum, but who fall short of supporting Ciudadanos’ insistence on reintroducing direct rule by Madrid.  

PP leader Pablo Casado is trying to cultivate a moderate public image, while striving to win back conservative voters that switched to Cs and Vox.

Cs leader Albert Rivera continued his attacks on Pedro Sánchez yesterday. He rejected the electoral coalition offer made by Pablo Casado ("España Suma"), but stated his willingness for coalitions with the conservative party in case they have the numbers on November 11. Rivera chanted his "Sánchez is a public danger" mantra promised he won't repeat the distressing spectacle of the leftwing parties and their fake negotiations.

Unidas Podemos is undecided to whether it should go in attack mode or use moderate rhetoric, given that socialists are the only possible coalition partners.

¨Más Madrid, the party of Íñigo Errejón, is discussing the possibility to run a list in the upcoming general elections. Errejón is focused on building his organization in the region of Madrid, but the MM group in the Madrid City Hall opened the discussion in order to seek representation in Congress. The proposal is running a list for Madrid and seeking alliances with regional forces like Compromís (Mónica Oltra said she would be open to a "paperless marriage"). Former mayor Manuela Carmena ruled out the possibility to be the top candidate of that list, while Errejón and his inner circle are pondering whether to run.

Apparently memes have invaded our own dimension.

A TV presenter named called Risto Mejide, who presents a program in Spanish TV is going to form his own party and run in the general elections in Madrid.

Joke party or populist garbage? The environment is dangerous and this kind of experiments might succeed eventually. I hope it doesn't go anywhere. That Risto Mejide is repellent.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: crals on September 19, 2019, 11:50:42 AM
Is it at all realistic that PSOE could get a majority without either UP or Cs (with minor parties like PNV)?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on September 19, 2019, 12:03:47 PM
Is it at all realistic that PSOE could get a majority without either UP or Cs (with minor parties like PNV)?

There is no chance for a PSOE majority (even with the help of PNV, Compromis and PRC) as current polling place socialists in the low 30s.  Their Portuguese counterparts might have a better chance, but Spanish politics is getting too complicated. The goal of Sánchez is to diminish the size of UP and Cs, in order they become mere satellite parties more "reasonable" and easy to handle

EDIT: another question is that PSOE reaches 35% of the vote or gets more. In that case the chances are much better, providing that PP remains in the low 20s


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: P. Clodius Pulcher did nothing wrong on September 19, 2019, 12:47:09 PM
There's an alternate universe out there where Carme Chacón and Inés Arrimadas are leading Spain into a utopian liberal centrist future


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 19, 2019, 05:20:15 PM
There's an alternate universe out there where Carme Chacón and Inés Arrimadas are leading Spain into a utopian liberal centrist future

That alternate universe sounds pretty nice considering the present :P

Tbh considering how bad PSOE was doing in the early 2010s, PM Carme Chacón was probably never going to happen (especially considering she retired in 2016 and died in 2017). I can easily see her doing better than Rubalcaba, but 2011 was completely unwinnable for PSOE. If she manages to survive all the way to 2015 she does have a strong chance though, depends on whether she outperforms Sánchez or not. Since she died in 2017, I imagine her death would have been seen as some sort of "national tragedy" I guess.

As for Inés Arrimadas, she still has a future so don't count her out :P (though a PM from Cs is not going to happen soon, she is definitely going to end up as Rivera's replacement)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on September 19, 2019, 06:57:44 PM
Carme Chacón was basically the female version of Zapatero and Inés Arrimadas has lost a lot of appeal since she left Catalonia and moved to Madrid. Arrimadas deserves credit for her excellent results in the Catalan elections of 2015 and 2017. But after her electoral success in December 2017 she failed to vindicate herself as a credible alternative to Catalan nationalists, despite she was leading the party that won a plurality of popular vote (she led the largest faction in.the Catalan parliament, couldn't govern because the combined nationalist parties have a majotity). Currently Arrimadas is being overshadowed by the radicalism of the PP spokeswoman in Congress, the controversial Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on September 20, 2019, 12:58:38 PM
https://www.elindependiente.com/politica/2019/09/20/mas-madrid-lanzara-su-candidatura-a-las-generales-en-los-proximos-dias/

Más Madrid is IN for the general elections. Errejón will probably lead the list, as Carmena declined to be a candidate. So far it's unknown where they plan to compete.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on September 20, 2019, 01:44:29 PM
https://www.elindependiente.com/politica/2019/09/20/mas-madrid-lanzara-su-candidatura-a-las-generales-en-los-proximos-dias/

Más Madrid is IN for the general elections. Errejón will probably lead the list, as Carmena declined to be a candidate. So far it's unknown where they plan to compete.

I read in El Confidencial that Errejón & Co will try to convince Carmena until the last minute, but it's more likely that she won't be the candidate. I think that Más Madrid will only run in the Madrid constituency with Errejón at the top (unless Carmena changes her mind). It's too early to run lists in other constituencies without organization and Errejón would be accused of "dividing the left". In case of winning a sizeable amount of seats for Madrid (let's say 3 or 4), I guess MM could join Compromis after the elections in order to create a parliamentary group (unless there's a coalition between UP and Compromis in Valencia). There's a window of opportunity for Errejón, given the failure of PSOE and UP. According to a recent Invymark poll for La Sexta, 1/3 of PSOE and 1/2 of UP voters could consider the possibility to vote for a party led by the Podemos co-founder.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 20, 2019, 03:02:06 PM
Madrid getting a Madrid nationalist party has to be peak Spanish politics :P

(Yes, Errejon's party is not going to be nationalist or even regionalist in any meaningful way but still)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on September 20, 2019, 03:31:13 PM
Madrid getting a Madrid nationalist party has to be peak Spanish politics :P

(Yes, Errejon's party is not going to be nationalist or even regionalist in any meaningful way but still)

I might be biased, cause I side with Errejón. However it's undisputable there's a great anger among leftwing and progressive voters, which dimension might have been miscalculated by Sánchez's spin doctors (Iván Redondo is always the main suspect). It's possible that many voters are sick of the caudillo style of leadership and are willing to give a chance to other type of politicians, less dogmatic and egocentric. It's obvious that, sooner or later, Errejón will try to jump into national politics again. Maybe new actors  are necessary to bring a breath of fresh air in this strained environment.  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Lumine on September 20, 2019, 04:53:58 PM
I sort of understand how Errejón is different from Iglesias in practical terms and perhaps on their different interpretations of how a party should be organized, but ideologically speaking, is there an actual difference?

Or is the perception of Errejón as sort of a more "moderate" figure (something I've read in newspapers, may not be accurate) based on his conception of politics and his criticism of Iglesias's insistence on a coalition and on having Podemos ministers in government?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on September 21, 2019, 06:44:47 AM
I sort of understand how Errejón is different from Iglesias in practical terms and perhaps on their different interpretations of how a party should be organized, but ideologically speaking, is there an actual difference?

Or is the perception of Errejón as sort of a more "moderate" figure (something I've read in newspapers, may not be accurate) based on his conception of politics and his criticism of Iglesias's insistence on a coalition and on having Podemos ministers in government?

I think there are no big ideological differences between Errejón and Iglesias in what regards concrete policy measures. One could say there are many coincidences between the PSOE and UP platforms as well, except for issues like the Catalan referendum (my impression is that Errejón avoids the question and is less 'sympathetic' to sovereigntism than Iglesias or Colau). Iglesias has a discourse and highlights issues more common to the 'traditional left' (workers' rights, big corporations, etc), while Errejón is more associated to the 'new left' (feminism, LGTB rights, ecology). However, at the end of the day they stand for similar things. Their main differences are on style and strategy. Iglesias is a charismatic, tough and combative leader; Errejón is more 'soft power', flexible and open to dialogue. In terms of negotiating strategy, Errejón is open to things unthinkable to Iglesias. For instance, the leader of Más Madrid proposed outside support to a coalition deal between PSOE and Cs in the region of Madrid. It's difficult to imagine Iglesias and other Podemos leaders proposing such 'lesser evil solutions', although there are very exceptional cases at local level (PSOE and Cs made coalition agreements in Tenerife with the outside support of Podemos, but the Cs councilors were expelled from the party). Also, Errejón is obsessed with avoiding the same mistakes made in Podemos (they improvised a hierarchical organization too dependent on the leader, which ultimately proved to be rather weak), as well he wants to take a very different road trying to appeal broader audiences (UP, PSOE and even Cs voters) avoiding the Podemos' turn to IU 2.0. In what regards the failed 'negotiation' to form a coalition government, the Errejón faction has criticized both the PSOE's attitude and the UP's "lack of generosity".


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: rob in cal on September 21, 2019, 07:14:48 AM
Any developments in terms of a pp and c electoral alliance? .without that, can't see much hope for improvement on the right.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on September 22, 2019, 01:46:31 AM
90% of Spaniards angered, disappointed or worried by political deadlock, says 40dB poll for El País

() (https://ibb.co/Qpw7W8z)

GAD3 poll for La Vanguardia

() (https://ibb.co/Pwb17xy)

() (https://ibb.co/ct5S7xR)

Más Madrid will hold a meeting this evening. Elected officials and grassroots members will discuss whether the party participates in general elections. Errejón will not attend, in order not to influence the decision. Manuela Carmena ruled out to be the candidate, but MM municipal spokeswoman Marta Higueras says the former Madrid mayor will give full support to Errejón if he decides to run.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 22, 2019, 02:41:05 PM
Errejón officially running, the party assembly passed the motion to run in the general election in a landslide.

Still no idea if they will run only in Madrid; in Madrid plus a handful of provinces with a lot of seats (Valencia, Barcelona, Seville, etc) or in all of Spain. I think it will probably be the 1st or 2nd, I can't see MM getting enough people to run everywhere in 2 weeks or so, even if they managed to get into enough deals with regional parties


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on September 23, 2019, 10:17:46 AM
According to El Independiente, Errejón wants to compete in the 17 most populous provinces

Madrid (37 seats); Barcelona (32); Valencia (15); Alicante and Seville (12); Málaga (11); Murcia (10); Cádiz (9); Baleares, A Coruña, Las Palmas and Vizcaya ( 8 ); y Asturias, Granada, Pontevedra, Santa Cruz de Tenerife snd Zaragoza

https://www.elindependiente.com/politica/2019/09/23/errejon-concurrir-10-n-provincias-siete-escanos/

Possible allies: Compromis (Valencia and Alicante; might run with UP), Mes (Balearic Islands) and Equo. The small green party is actually splitted in two factions: the current leadership might join 'Más Pais', while the faction led by Juantxo López  de Uralde will remain loyal to UP.

Question: will Pedro Sánchez sleep and have sweet dreams after November 10?



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on September 23, 2019, 10:37:44 AM
According to El Independiente, Errejón wants to compete in the 17 most populous provinces

Madrid (37 seats); Barcelona (32); Valencia (15); Alicante and Seville (12); Málaga (11); Murcia (10); Cádiz (9); Baleares, A Coruña, Las Palmas and Vizcaya ( 8 ); y Asturias, Granada, Pontevedra, Santa Cruz de Tenerife snd Zaragoza

https://www.elindependiente.com/politica/2019/09/23/errejon-concurrir-10-n-provincias-siete-escanos/

Possible allies: Compromis (Valencia and Alicante; might run with UP), Mes (Balearic Islands) and Equo. The small green party is actually splitted in two factions: the current leadership might join 'Más Pais', while the faction led by Juantxo López  de Uralde will remain loyal to UP.

Question: will Pedro Sánchez sleep and have sweet dreams after November 10?



But would this not also shift some seats to the Right if this splits the Podemos  even if POSE gains so,e too ? So why is Sánchez that much better off under this scenario ?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on September 23, 2019, 11:29:12 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/23/spanish-police-arrest-catalan-separatists-on-suspicion-of-terrorism

"Spanish police arrest Catalan separatists on suspicion of terrorism"


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on September 23, 2019, 11:44:40 AM
But would this not also shift some seats to the Right if this splits the Podemos  even if POSE gains so,e too ? So why is Sánchez that much better off under this scenario ?

I didn't say this scenario is going to be better or worse for Sánchez. I was referring to some recent statements made by the acting PM, who  told to a journalist that he couldn't sleep easily with Podemos in the government. Sánchez claims that Podemos people lacks experience (which is true, but this also rules for some of the ministers picked by him) and can't manage important portfolios. This sounds arrogant and disrespectful, but it might help UP in the campaign (it will be hard for Iglesias anyway). It's early to know the effect of the new party. Splitting the leftwing vote in three is not necessarily bad in big constituencies like Madrid, providing that all parties cross the threshold. Electoral hurdles increase in smaller constituencies. If we compare the results of the general and regional elections in Madrid, we could draw some interesting conclusions. Anyway Errejón will have to compete against Iglesias this time, so the correlation of forces will be presumably different. The key factors are how many voters the new  party catches from UP or PSOE and turnout.

Amazingly there are polls running around. El Español says 5.8% and 6-10 seats for the new party in the following cpnstituencies: Madrid (2-3), Barcelona (2-3), Sevilla (1-2), Valencia (1), Alicante (0-1). Total results would be Left 165/Right 159

 https://www.elespanol.com/espana/politica/20190922/espanol-publicara-edicion-primera-encuesta-incluye-errejon/431207122_0.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: mileslunn on September 23, 2019, 01:01:14 PM
Looking at polls it seems Sanchez decision to go is backfiring.  Not enough for the right to win, but all signs are forming a government will be harder not easier so his strategy seemed more based on ego.  C's are declining heavily, but more of that is going to PP than PSOE while UP is holding up.  Things could change, but a PSOE + regionalist parties seems unlikely so someone will have to bend after unless right wins a majority.  Also PSOE + C's looks to be a bit short meaning it may mean regionalist parties play balance of power, although I think most of them would prefer PSOE to seek support from UP than C's.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on September 23, 2019, 01:14:48 PM
I guess the main risk Sanchez is taking is really that before this upcoming election PSOE-C alliance would have the numbers but after the election even that combination might not have the numbers for a de facto majority.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on September 23, 2019, 04:48:22 PM
Spokeswoman Monica Oltra and deputy Joan Baldoví announced tonight that Compromís will ally with Errejón. They appreciated the "generous offer" made by UP, but stated the majority feeling within Compromís was to join forces with the 'Más País' project. Ideally they would have preferred a joint list incorporating all parties to the left of PSOE, but that's not possible. Compromís governs in the Valencian Community with PSOE and UP. Mónica Oltra is deputy premier in the regional government led by the socialist Ximo Puig.  Tomorrow we will know more


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on September 23, 2019, 08:04:18 PM
I guess the main risk Sanchez is taking is really that before this upcoming election PSOE-C alliance would have the numbers but after the election even that combination might not have the numbers for a de facto majority.

PSOE-C's would have been the natural progression of things, if everyone didn't have egos the size of Spain. Now PSOE thinks they can monopolize the center, and C's thinks they can be the Salvini of Spain - though we will only learn about latter's potential once he hits the campaign trail and attempts to reverse the present decline


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on September 23, 2019, 09:07:40 PM

Ever since the last Election,  Casado has taken the party rightwards. He cracked down on C's locals allying with PSOE and other leftists, he purged a remaining 'macron-type' liberals from the party, and has embraced the anti-Catalan part of their platform. In part, the time was ripe after the results came in, C's could try and out-right PP and gain more  voters, and absorb VOX who failed to take off. Of course, things didn't work out that way, at least so far. Now, the title 'Salvini of Spain' does not include Salvini's key proposals like Migrant cutting. Instead it revolves around a worldview an electoral strategy: pairing right wing cultural outrage (that gives you more votes beyond ones normal reach) with traditional right wing bases - Italy the North, Spain the 'market-liberal' style Conservative suburbs. 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on September 24, 2019, 01:43:41 PM
Supreme Court backs the exhumation of Franco's remains. Hopefully it will be solved before the elections take place

https://www.politico.eu/article/generalisimo-francisco-franco-grave-remains-exhume-court-backs-exhumation/

Quote
Spain’s Supreme Court on Tuesday ruled that Francisco Franco's remains can be removed from the Valley of the Fallen, endorsing the Socialist government's plans against his descendants' will.

The generalísimo's body is set to be disinterred from the giant mausoleum on the outskirts of Madrid — a basilica dug into a hillside topped by a cross 150 meters high — and relocated to a more discreet cemetery at Mingorrubio, also close to the capital, where Franco’s wife is buried.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on September 25, 2019, 07:21:53 AM
Participants the Sunday meeting decided by acclamation that Más Madrid will participate in elections. More details will be revealed in another meeting this evening, particularly the name of the candidate (Íñigo Errejón, in all likelihood), the name of the project (Más País?), the places where it's going to compete (allegedly provinces with 7+ seats) and the alliances with other parties. Given that Más Madrid does not exist outside the capital region and lacks territorial organization, alliances with existing parties are necessary. Errejón already scored a point with Compromís in the Valencian Community, but alliances in other regions seem much more uncertain. The UP regional allies in Catalonia and Andalusia remain loyal to Iglesias, although in the southern region the organization led by Teresa Rodríguez is seeking to replace Unidas Podemos by Adelante Andalucía in the ballots. Equo, a small environmentalist party with nationwide presence, might split in two: in case the party joins Errejón, the faction led by Juantxo López de Uralde (MP for Álava) will leave and stay in UP. Another Equo member is Madrid councilor Inés Sabanés: the woman who crafted the 'Madrid Central' sides with Errejón and acted as the MM spokeswoman after the last meeting. Some regionalist parties might join Errejón too, including Aragonese Union (Chunta Aragonesista or CHA), En Marea (Galicia) and even New Canaries. However, the ecosocialist and sovereigntist MÉS is more likely to repeat alliance with ERC in the Balearic Islands.

The surge of a new force in the Spanish Left makes previous polls obsolete. I found an interesting estimation of the' Errejón Effect' in El Mundo

https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2019/09/25/5d8a772a21efa020248b461e.html

() (https://imgbb.com/)

The graphs show three scenarios: 1) Errejón doesn't run; 2) Errejón runs in provinces with 7+ seats; and 3) Errejón runs in all provinces. The results simulation is made on the assumption that the new party will catch 37.5% of UP and 11.5% of PSOE voters in April. There are some provinces where the UP's sole representative could be in danger: namely Zaragoza (Pablo Echenique), Santa Cruz de Tenerife (Alberto Rodríguez) and Murcia.

In the graph beelow, vote estimation and % of seats

() (https://imgbb.com/)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: TheSaint250 on September 25, 2019, 09:52:20 AM


Looks like Errejón’s list will be Más País.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on September 25, 2019, 10:25:05 AM


Looks like Errejón’s list will be Más País.

The electomania staff abuses of deceitful language claiming they are pollsters, a 'panel' or something. The name Más País has been around for a while (I typed it several times on this thread already), hence this is far from being a sensational scoop. Also, a spokesman of the Aragonese regionalist CHA said yesterday something about an agreement with Más País. At the end of the MM meeting on Sunday, people cheered "Más País!, Más País!". I'd be surprised if the Errejón people chooses another name.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: TheSaint250 on September 25, 2019, 10:58:17 AM


Looks like Errejón’s list will be Más País.

The electomania staff abuses of deceitful language claiming they are pollsters, a 'panel' or something. The name Más País has been around for a while (I typed it several times on this thread already), hence this is far from being a sensational scoop. Also, a spokesman of the Aragonese regionalist CHA said yesterday something about an agreement with Más País. At the end of the MM meeting on Sunday, people cheered "Más País!, Más País!". I'd be surprised if the Errejón people chooses another name.

Sorry, I hope you don’t think I posted this like a discovery. I interpreted the tweet as Errejón and his people had finally come to the solid conclusion that they would name the group Más País, but forgive me if I misinterpreted that.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on September 25, 2019, 11:19:06 AM


Looks like Errejón’s list will be Más País.

The electomania staff abuses of deceitful language claiming they are pollsters, a 'panel' or something. The name Más País has been around for a while (I typed it several times on this thread already), hence this is far from being a sensational scoop. Also, a spokesman of the Aragonese regionalist CHA said yesterday something about an agreement with Más País. At the end of the MM meeting on Sunday, people cheered "Más País!, Más País!". I'd be surprised if the Errejón people chooses another name.

Sorry, I hope you don’t think I posted this like a discovery. I interpreted the tweet as Errejón and his people had finally come to the solid conclusion that they would name the group Más País, but forgive me if I misinterpreted that.

I criticized electomania for saying that's a scoop, not you for posting. There's no reason to apologize. Excuse me if I looked angry


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: TheSaint250 on September 25, 2019, 11:42:26 AM


Looks like Errejón’s list will be Más País.

The electomania staff abuses of deceitful language claiming they are pollsters, a 'panel' or something. The name Más País has been around for a while (I typed it several times on this thread already), hence this is far from being a sensational scoop. Also, a spokesman of the Aragonese regionalist CHA said yesterday something about an agreement with Más País. At the end of the MM meeting on Sunday, people cheered "Más País!, Más País!". I'd be surprised if the Errejón people chooses another name.

Sorry, I hope you don’t think I posted this like a discovery. I interpreted the tweet as Errejón and his people had finally come to the solid conclusion that they would name the group Más País, but forgive me if I misinterpreted that.

I criticized electomania for saying that's a scoop, not you for posting. There's no reason to apologize. Excuse me if I looked angry

Haha no problem. Sorry for the misunderstanding :)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 25, 2019, 02:26:54 PM
Yeah, Mas Pais has been rumoured for a while now as the name of Errejón's party; with "Somos Más" being an extremely distant second

Mostly because "Más España" would have very obvious connotations and thus is unreasonable for a party in the left :P


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: mileslunn on September 25, 2019, 05:52:26 PM
Yeah, Mas Pais has been rumoured for a while now as the name of Errejón's party; with "Somos Más" being an extremely distant second

Mostly because "Más España" would have very obvious connotations and thus is unreasonable for a party in the left :P

How likely do you think it is the election resolves this?  Looking at the polls it looks like a bigger stalemate so will when party cave in?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Kyng on September 25, 2019, 06:24:01 PM
Supreme Court backs the exhumation of Franco's remains. Hopefully it will be solved before the elections take place

https://www.politico.eu/article/generalisimo-francisco-franco-grave-remains-exhume-court-backs-exhumation/

Quote
Spain’s Supreme Court on Tuesday ruled that Francisco Franco's remains can be removed from the Valley of the Fallen, endorsing the Socialist government's plans against his descendants' will.

The generalísimo's body is set to be disinterred from the giant mausoleum on the outskirts of Madrid — a basilica dug into a hillside topped by a cross 150 meters high — and relocated to a more discreet cemetery at Mingorrubio, also close to the capital, where Franco’s wife is buried.

Rumours that he's actually being dug up as a replacement for Trump are unconfirmed.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 25, 2019, 06:30:30 PM
Yeah, Mas Pais has been rumoured for a while now as the name of Errejón's party; with "Somos Más" being an extremely distant second

Mostly because "Más España" would have very obvious connotations and thus is unreasonable for a party in the left :P

How likely do you think it is the election resolves this?  Looking at the polls it looks like a bigger stalemate so will when party cave in?

If results are close to the current polling I guess PSOE eventually caves with a deal not too different from the July one


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on September 26, 2019, 12:17:19 AM
It's happening! "Popular leftwing politician forms new party"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/25/spanish-elections-popular-leftwing-politician-forms-new-party-inigo-errejon

Quote
One of the Spanish left’s most popular politicians has announced the creation of a splinter party that will run in the 10 November parliamentary elections, adding further uncertainty to the country’s fourth national ballot in four years (...)

Íñigo Errejón, a co-founder of Podemos, which he left in January after disagreements with its leader, Pablo Iglesias, said he was launching the party, Más País (More Country), because he wanted to help form a government and encourage disillusioned leftwing voters to turn up at the polling stations.

“I understand the widespread anger of the Spanish people with the current leaders and with the political stalemate,” he said in front of a crowd cheering “president”.  

The Más País ticket in Madrid will be headed by Errejón, who allegedly will be flanked by high profile women such as former deputy mayor Marta Higueras or former environment commissioner Inés Sabanés (as I said before, she's from Equo and is the Madrid Central craftswoman). It is still unknown in which provinces will compete Más País. Anyway there is a new GAD3 poll incorporating the new party released today by the conservative ABC newspaper

PSOE 27.2% (121 seats)
PP 21.4% (97)
UP 12.4% (34)
Cs 11.3% (32)
Vox 9.6% (21)
Más País 5.2% (9)
ERC 3.9% (15)
JxCAT 2% (7)
EAJ-PNV 1.6% (6)
EH Bildu 1% (4)
NA+ 0.5% (2)
CC 0.4% (1)
PRC 0.2% (1)

The main conclusion may well be that Sánchez wanted a new election to strengthen his position and will get a more complex parliament in return. Good luck, Pedro

Mostly because "Más España" would have very obvious connotations and thus is unreasonable for a party in the left :P

The PSOE and the PCE are the traditional parties of the Spanish Left. The "E" means "Español" and "España", respectively. PP, Cs and Vox don't have the letter "E". "Más País" sounds much better than "Más España". Anyway in case you visit the new party's website, you will notice internet domain is ".es" (Podemos is ".org") and they use the word "España"

Meanwhile PP will try to convince Cs to go into a joint list called "España Suma". Rivera boys are not enthusiastic with the idea, but their polling numbers are rather bad. I believe deadline for coalitions is next Sunday.







Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on September 26, 2019, 01:07:33 AM
It's happening! "Popular leftwing politician forms new party"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/25/spanish-elections-popular-leftwing-politician-forms-new-party-inigo-errejon

Quote
One of the Spanish left’s most popular politicians has announced the creation of a splinter party that will run in the 10 November parliamentary elections, adding further uncertainty to the country’s fourth national ballot in four years (...)

Íñigo Errejón, a co-founder of Podemos, which he left in January after disagreements with its leader, Pablo Iglesias, said he was launching the party, Más País (More Country), because he wanted to help form a government and encourage disillusioned leftwing voters to turn up at the polling stations.

“I understand the widespread anger of the Spanish people with the current leaders and with the political stalemate,” he said in front of a crowd cheering “president”.  

The Más País ticket in Madrid will be headed by Errejón, who allegedly will be flanked by high profile women such as former deputy mayor Marta Higueras or former environment commissioner Inés Sabanés (as I said before, she's from Equo and is the Madrid Central craftswoman). It is still unknown in which provinces will compete Más País. Anyway there is a new GAD3 poll incorporating the new party released today by the conservative ABC newspaper

PSOE 27.2% (121 seats)
PP 21.4% (97)
UP 12.4% (34)
Cs 11.3% (32)
Vox 9.6% (21)
Más País 5.2% (9)
ERC 3.9% (15)
JxCAT 2% (7)
EAJ-PNV 1.6% (6)
EH Bildu 1% (4)
NA+ 0.5% (2)
CC 0.4% (1)
PRC 0.2% (1)

The main conclusion may well be that Sánchez wanted a new election to strengthen his position and will get a more complex parliament in return. Good luck, Pedro

Mostly because "Más España" would have very obvious connotations and thus is unreasonable for a party in the left :P

The PSOE and the PCE are the traditional parties of the Spanish Left. The "E" means "Español" and "España", respectively. PP, Cs and Vox don't have the letter "E". "Más País" sounds much better than "Más España". Anyway in case if you visit the new party's website, you will notice internet domain is ".es" (Podemos is ".org") and they use the word "España"

Meanwhile PP will try to convince Cs to go into a joint list called "España Suma". Rivera boys are not enthusiastic with the idea, but their polling numbers are rather bad. I believe deadline for coalitions is next Sunday.







Either Sanchez is either the biggest genius ever or he is really, really bad at politics. I guess we'll find out soon. He is trying to be a kind of Spanish Macron, which is interesting because everyone thougjt Macron was bad at politics but now it seems like he's really quite good at them. For what it's worth I think Sanchez is more like May than Macron, which is to say doomed.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on September 26, 2019, 02:07:08 AM
Either Sanchez is either the biggest genius ever or he is really, really bad at politics. I guess we'll find out soon. He is trying to be a kind of Spanish Macron, which is interesting because everyone thougjt Macron was bad at politics but now it seems like he's really quite good at them. For what it's worth I think Sanchez is more like May than Macron, which is to say doomed.

Don't forget Renzi. There is a photo that dates back to 2014. It was shot in Bologna, Italy, and features four young promising leaders in white shirts: Matteo Renzi, Manuel Valls, Pedro Sánchez and the Dutch Diederik Samsom. The Spaniard is the only one of those third way socialdemocrats who survives on the top. I'll post a link, because there's an affair with copyrighted images here

https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20180430/443141506095/pedro-sanchez-psoe-socialdemocracia-europa.html

Anyway I don't think Sanchez is doomed. Not yet


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: kelestian on September 26, 2019, 03:18:53 AM
I'm surprised noone have mentioned this:

Catalan separatists arrested in Spain over 'attack plot'
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-49793809

Seems like big escalation?



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on September 26, 2019, 03:49:46 AM
I'm surprised noone have mentioned this:

Catalan separatists arrested in Spain over 'attack plot'
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-49793809

Seems like big escalation?


I hope it's not. From what I heard, preliminary evidence points the arrested separatists are individuals acting at their own peril and not members of a terrorist organization. Extreme caution anyway: separatist leaders are awaiting the imminent court ruling and the latter will have consequences


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on September 28, 2019, 04:31:14 AM
Judge accuses separatists of belonging to a new terrorist group

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/09/27/inenglish/1569568870_128248.html

Quote
even of the nine Catalan separatists arrested on Monday on suspicion of planning acts of violence have been placed in pre-trial custody without bail. Judge Manuel García-Castellón, of Spain’s High Court, the Audiencia Nacional, made the decision on Thursday, arguing that the individuals belonged to a violent faction of the Committees to Defend the Republic (CDR), a network of grassroots activists who have made headlines in recent years through public acts of protest in support of the Catalan independence movement.

In his writ, García-Castellón described this faction, dubbed the Technical Response Team (ERT), as an “organization with a hierarchical structure, that aims to instate a Catalan republic via any means, even violent ones,” according to judicial sources. “The ERT is an organization with sufficient capacity to carry out tactics and operations with a high level of professionalism,” the court statement read.  

The arrested separatists planned to collapse communications and had images of national police stations in their cellphones.

Meanwhile the Parliament of Catalonia passed a motion for resolution concerning legitimization of disobedience, amnesty and a petition for the withdrawal of the Guardia Civil. It's the game of rhetoric statements the separatist government of Catalonia uses to play. The Spanish government will challenge the motion before the Constitutional Court through the State Attorney, but spokeswoman Isabel García Celáa made clear there's no reason to implement article 155 (direct rule). The priority of Sánchez is to deescalate tension and confrontation. as well the perceived feedback between separatist parties and the Spanish Right which pursue escalation for electoral purposes. Regarding the arrested separatists, Catalan premier Quim Torra refuses to condemn violence and claims police and legal action is an attempt to criminalize the independence movement. The motion legitimizing disobedience was sponsored by the CUP and backed by JxCAT and ERC; PSC, Cat Comú-Podem and PP voted against; Cs deputies didn't vote. Cs deputy Carlos Carrizosa was expelled from the Catalan parliament in a very heated session.

In other news, the Errejón party Más País will run in coalition with the environmentalist Equo in several provinces. Presumably Inés Sabanés will be placed second or third in the Madrid list. Equo founder Juan López de Uralde leaves the party. Likewise Más País and CHA (centre-left regionalist) sealed an agreement to run together for Zaragoza. The Podemos leadership in the region of Murcia, aligned with the Errejón faction, resigns to join Más País. Former leader Oscar Urralburu will also resign his seat in regional assembly and likely will head the Más País ticket in Murcia. Errejón has failed to reach an agreement with new Canaries (NC and CC are negotiating a joint ticket in las Palmas) and is facing serious problems to find allies in Barcelona, which is a key constituency.

EDIT: In an unprecedented move, the CUP will contest the Spanish general elections. A splinter of the far-left Catalan separatist group contested the April 2019 elections under the "Republican Front" (Front Republicá) banner.

The time sharing agreement between NC and CC in Las Palmas province states that, in case they win a single seat, NC will hold 2 1/2 years and CC 1 1/2 years





Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on September 29, 2019, 03:59:49 AM
Cs deputy Carlos Carrizosa was expelled from the Catalan parliament in a very heated session.

"Row breaks out in Catalan parliament over jailed terrorism suspects"

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/09/27/inenglish/1569570501_922479.html

Quote
A political debate inside the Catalan parliament descended into a tremendous row on Thursday evening over the recent arrests of radical separatists who are facing terrorism charges that include possession of bomb-making materials.

At the most heated session in recent years, separatist politicians led by regional premier Quim Torra began chanting “freedom,” alluding to the seven members of the Committees to Defend the Republic (CDR), a grassroots group that has carried out actions such as roadblocks to defend Catalan independence (...)

Soon after separatist lawmakers expressed support for the suspects, Carlos Carrizosa, a representative of the non-separatist party Ciudadanos (Citizens) was expelled from the chamber after repeatedly telling pro-independence parliamentarians that “we feel threatened by those who back terrorism.”

His fellow party members walked out with him, but they were not the first ones. Earlier, the four representatives of the anti-capitalist CUP party had left in protest over the judge’s decision to keep the seven CDR suspects in preventive custody.

To put it in a few words: even those supporting independence should admit premier Quim Torra is a public disgrace for Catalonia. The attitude of separatist lawmakers is regrettable, My opinion of the Cs representatives is very low, too. Sad.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 29, 2019, 04:36:48 PM
EDIT: In an unprecedented move, the CUP will contest the Spanish general elections. A splinter of the far-left Catalan separatist group contested the April 2019 elections under the "Republican Front" (Front Republicá) banner.

The time sharing agreement between NC and CC in Las Palmas province states that, in case they win a single seat, NC will hold 2 1/2 years and CC 1 1/2 years


CUP finally running in a general election is definitely an interesting move I did not expect. In any case they are a lock for 1 seat in Barcelona considering secessionists are radicalizing and how close FR got in April. 2 seats is doable, but tough.

Also, wtf is wrong with NC? I thought they now had bad relations with CC? Even regarding nationalism, the 2 reaching a deal seems like a bad idea that neither CC's base nor NC's base will support. This is definitely an alliance that will make them lose votes. The deal is also horribly lopsided against NC. Even in 2011 when they ran together NC got the 1st MP for Las Palmas for 4 years.

If NC wanted allies they should have gone with Errejon's party like Compromís. That would have definitely made them competitive for a seat in Las Palmas.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on September 29, 2019, 07:09:50 PM
Also, wtf is wrong with NC? I thought they now had bad relations with CC? Even regarding nationalism, the 2 reaching a deal seems like a bad idea that neither CC's base nor NC's base will support. This is definitely an alliance that will make them lose votes. The deal is also horribly lopsided against NC. Even in 2011 when they ran together NC got the 1st MP for Las Palmas for 4 years.

If NC wanted allies they should have gone with Errejon's party like Compromís. That would have definitely made them competitive for a seat in Las Palmas.

I concur the deal with CC is a terrible idea. The president of the Gran Canaria Cabildo Antonio Morales and others are strongly opposed, but the criteria of the party leadership prevailed. Secretary for organization Carmelo Ramírez told to Canarias Ahora that he met with someone close to Errejón nine days ago. It was a secret and informal meeting days before Más País was launched and prior to a formal negotiation that never took place. The main obstacle was Pedro Quevedo. The Errejón envoy (a certain Pablo de Palacios) raised objections on him, because Quevedo voted for the Rajoy's budget that is still in force and Más País will campaign against it. On the other hand, the PSOE was not very interested in a deal with NC; the conditions offered by the socialists were worse for regionalists than the 2015 deal. Ramírez gives his version of the failed attempt with Más País in the article linked below

https://www.eldiario.es/canariasahora/politica/Carmelo-Ramirez-NC-Errejon-Presupuestos_0_947005743.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on September 30, 2019, 01:01:03 PM
The deadline to register electoral coalitions was today at 14:00 (CET)

Unsurprisingly the coalition "España Suma" proposed by PP leader Pablo Casado was rejected by the "preferential partner" Cs. Two regions with rightwing coalitions:

-Navarra: Navarra Suma (NA+) incorporating the Navarrese People's Union (UPN), PP and Cs

-Asturias: PP-Foro

The coalition Unidas Podemos (UP) incorporates Podemos, IU and two associated regional "confluences" (Spanish: confluencias)

-Catalonia: En Comú Podem (ECP) incorporates Podem, Barcelona en Comú (Ada Colau), the spoils of the now defunct ICV and other leftist/green organizations. Jaume Asens will be again the top candidate for Barcelona.

-Galicia: Galicia en Común is a coalition of the regional branches of Podemos and IU. Presumably Yolanda Díaz will be the candidate for A Coruña.

Former allies: leftwing nationalist Anova won't contest the general elections, while En Marea ruled out alliance with Más País and will run in coalition with Compromiso por Galicia (CxG)

-The leader of the Andalusian branch of Podemos, Teresa Rogríguez, proposed a "unity list" grouping Podemos, IU and the Errejón platform Más País under the Adelante Andalucía ("Forward Andalusia") banner. The offer was rejected: UP will contest all provinces and Más País will probably contest the largest constituencies (but not Cádiz, apparently)

Más País registered coaitions with Equo (previously in UP) to run 12 provinces. Additionally the Errejón platform sealed coalition agreements with two regionalist parties:

-Valencian Community: the coalition Més Compromís will run in the three provinces. Compromís is a coalition operating in the Valencian region that incorporates the Bloc Nacionalista Valencià, Iniciativa (Mónica Oltra) and Equo-Verds. In April 2019 Compromís ran in its own winning 1 seat for Valencia, while in 2015 Compromís ran in coalition with Podemos (IU was added in 2016) winning 4 seats. Regional and general elections were held simultaneously on April 28. Compromís got 16% of the vote in the last regional elections, but fell to just 6% in general elections as many voters switched to UP and PSOE. Compromís The terms of the agreement with Más País are advantageous for Compromís, which full autonomy to design the lists and within the future parliamentary group. The top candidate in Valencia province will be Joan Baldoví.

-Aragón: Más País and the regionalist Chunta Aragonsesista (CHA) will run in a joint ticket for Zaragoza (7 seats). The top candidate will be a former regionalist councilor called Camilo Asensio. CHA pressed unsuccessfully to replicate the alliance in Huesca ( 3 seats). In the province of Teruel Más País and CHA will support a citizens' platform called Teruel Existe. CHA made a coalition agreement with IU in 2011, but this time rejected UP due to a big hostility towards Pablo Echenique. The Podemos leader in Aragon Nacho Escartín asked unsuccessfully Iglesias to remove the man who was the chief negotiator in the fruitless talks to form a coalition government.

-Balearic Islands: Més per Mallorca repeats coalition with Més per Menorca and the regional branch of ERC

-Canary Islands: The leadership of centre-left regionalist New Canaries (NC) rejects a deal with Más País* and seals an agreement with centre-right regionalist Canarian Coalition (CC). The decision creates unrest among members of the NC leftist faction.

*The Errejón people gives a version of the failed attempt of negotiation with NC different from the statements of Carmelo Ramírez.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on October 01, 2019, 07:39:38 PM
Second referendum anniversary: calls for mass civil disobedience

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/10/01/inenglish/1569940639_863443.html

Quote
The Catalan regional government on Tuesday observed the second anniversary of the unauthorized independence referendum of October 1, 2017 with a public address that urged citizens to revive the spirit of the breakaway bid in order to advance toward a Catalan republic.

Standing inside the courtyard of the Palau de la Generalitat, the building that houses the regional executive, regional premier Quim Torra and his deputy Pere Aragonès read out a speech telling Catalan society to rekindle that spirit in order to address “the challenges of the future.”

Flanked by other high-ranking government officials, Torra and Aragonès pledged to “advance without any excuses toward the Catalan republic. We will do so the only way we know how: democratically and peacefully.”

Also on Tuesday, other independence leaders – representatives from parties Together for Catalunya (JxC), the Republican Catalan Left (ERC) and the far-left CUP, as well as civil societies ANC and Òmnium Cultural – read out a manifesto calling for a “massive response based on non-violent struggle and civil disobedience” to the upcoming ruling by the Supreme Court on the fate of 12 leaders who led the illegal breakaway attempt of 2017. The independence movement widely expects these leaders to be found guilty of rebellion, a crime that entails long prison terms.  

Barcelona local police estimates 18000 people in the demonstration commemorating the October 1 referendum, which is a very low attendance. Probably it's a sign of fatigue, but I doubt this implies a support for independence significantly lower. Pedro Sánchez, who is campaigning as the champion of moderation and stability, talked about article 155

Quote
Spain’s caretaker prime minister, Pedro Sánchez, made clear on Tuesday that the central government could once again suspend Catalonia’s regional powers under Article 155 of the Constitution, and that his administration has been studying the possibility of doing so (...)

Speaking to the Cadena SER radio network on Tuesday morning, Sánchez, of the Socialist Party (PSOE), said that there was no issue with the application of Article 155, despite the fact that parliament has been dissolved ahead of a fresh general election on November 10. “A caretaker government has greatly diminished powers, but [Article] 155 can be applied without problems, we have studied this and there would be no problems in terms of the Constitution or its legitimacy [...],” he said.

Meanwhile PP leader Pablo Casado is also is trying to cut a "moderate" image. Additionally Casado grew a beard this summer and everybody says he looks more mature, something like a younger version of Mariano Rajoy (and less ugly than Santiago Abascal). Even José María Aznar is blessing the "moderate" turn of the PP leader, according to El Mundo.The fact is that Aznar was the model of the "radical" Casado, who failed miserably in the April 2019 elections and some 'barons' (regional leaders) forced a more centrist turn after the disaster.  

Cs tables a no confidence motion against premier Quim Torra, motivated by the resolutions  adopted in the Parliament of Catalonia and the regional government's attitude towards the arrested separatists under investigation for terrorist activities. The motion is bound to fail, given that only Cs and PP will vote in favour. PSC spokeswoman Eva Granados said her party will abstain and everybody else will vote against. Inés Arrimadas was replaced as the Cs spokeswoman by a young deputy called Lorena Roldán.

Vox deputy for the Balearic Islands resigns membership and won't recontest her seat. Malena Contestí says that Vox is an "extremist movement" that agitates racism and homophobia, as well practices a "totalitarian proselitism". Contestí was originally member of a local conservative party Actúa Baleares that is allied to Vox in the islands.

Madrid mayor to schoolkids: "I'd rather donate to Notre-Dame than the Amazon"

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/10/01/inenglish/1569922217_943120.html

Quote
“If you could donate money, what would you donate it to, the Notre-Dame Cathedral or saving the Amazon?” That was the answer put to Madrid Mayor José Luis Martínez-Almeida during his appearance on Sunday in a regional TV show, where schoolchildren get to quiz celebrities about different topics.  

The kids look astounded in the video



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on October 01, 2019, 07:49:38 PM
Average polling in El País

() (https://ibb.co/YQwNKRG)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on October 01, 2019, 08:43:53 PM
Average polling in El País

() (https://ibb.co/YQwNKRG)

It's hard to follow the vote transfers here for Mas Pais. I assume  it is likely something like:

-C's+VOX -> PP
-PP+C's -> PSOE
-PSOE+Podemos -> Mas .

Which I guss if allowed to continue benefits PSOE and PP the  most...?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on October 02, 2019, 03:31:58 AM

It's hard to follow the vote transfers here for Mas Pais. I assume  it is likely something like:

-C's+VOX -> PP
-PP+C's -> PSOE
-PSOE+Podemos -> Mas .

Which I guess if allowed to continue benefits PSOE and PP the  most...?

According to the last Sondaxe poll, 21.5% of UP and 9.9% of PSOE voters would switch to Más País (another Sociométrica poll says 23% and 10%). Translated into raw vote figures that would mean Más País gets a similar vote figure from PSOE and UP. This contradicts vote transfer figures in Madrid regional elections: it's estimated 51% of Más Madrid voters came from UP and 22% from PSOE. It's too early to see a consolidated trend with a few polls with small sample sizes. We don't know yet in which provinces will compete Más País. The decision will be taken this week, as the deadline to register lists is on next Monday (October 7).

It's apparently clear that PP is in an upward trend, at the expense of Cs and Vox. On the other hand, the PSOE seems to be paying a price for the electoral repetition. Socialists were polling above 30% this summer, but now are falling to 29% and even 27%. Also, last polls show that UP resists better than expected; they seem to detect a strengthened loyalty of the voter base after the failed coalition attempts. Finally, the balance between the Left and the Right depends basically on turnout and that's very difficult to estimate.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: CumbrianLefty on October 02, 2019, 06:16:53 PM
Who could possibly have foreseen this might go wrong for the PSOE?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on October 02, 2019, 09:55:59 PM
Who could possibly have foreseen this might go wrong for the PSOE?

Yeah, Sanchez showed the same hubris May did back in 2017, and this looks like it's backfiring on him as it did on her.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on October 05, 2019, 03:05:14 AM
The Spanish Right revives the ghosts of the Civil War. Madrid premier Isabel Díaz Ayuso talked about people "burning churches" when criticizing the exhumation of Franco's remains

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/10/04/inenglish/1570174251_124493.html

Quote
Speaking inside the regional assembly on Thursday, the recently appointed premier accused the caretaker prime minister, Pedro Sánchez of the Socialist Party (PSOE), of using Spain’s late dictator Francisco Franco for electoral purposes.

“Sánchez is again mired in a stalemate, and he wants Franco to pull him out of this mess,” said Díaz Ayuso, alluding to the repeat vote that will take place in November after Sánchez won the April election but failed to form a government due to lack of sufficient parliamentary support. It will be Spain’s fourth national election in under four years.

Díaz Ayuso argued that Sánchez’s plans to exhume Franco’s remains from the Valley of the Fallen monument – a signature project of the PSOE’s that has been delayed for years due to legal hurdles – is an attempt at attracting leftist voters. She also called it highly divisive, and resorted to Civil War imagery to suggest what could come next.

“What will it be next? [Taking down] the cross from the valley? The entire valley? The neighborhood churches? Will they burn like they did in 1936?” said Díaz Ayuso, a former journalist who took office in August on a message of “consensus and dialogue above permanent tension and conflict.”

Amazingly, deputy premier Ignacio Aguado (Cs) told later to the press that regional government is doing everything possible in order to prevent churches are burning in 2019. Díaz Ayuso statements were in reply to the Vox spokeswoman Rocío Monasterio, who accused Díaz Ayuso for remaining silent before the Historical Memory Law as well as being accomplice of Pedro Sánchez on the exhumation of Franco's remains.

Vox secretary general and spokesman in the Madrid City Hall went further while being interviewed in Spanish TV. Javier Ortega Smith claims that the young women belonging to the Socialist Youth executed by the Franco regime in 1939 known as Las Trece Rosas were vile torturers, rapers and killers. The level of atrocity and the absurdity of these statements is indescribable, considering that some of these young women summarily executed were minors

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Trece_Rosas

Quote
"Las Trece Rosas" (the Thirteen Roses) is the name given in Spain to a group of thirteen young women who were executed by a Francoist firing squad just after the conclusion of the Spanish Civil War. Their execution was part of a massive execution campaign known as the "saca de agosto", which included 43 young men (among them a fourteen-year-old).

The thirteen victims were: Carmen Barrero Aguado (age 24), Martina Barroso García (age 22), Blanca Brissac Vázquez (age 29), Pilar Bueno Ibáñez (age 27), Julia Conesa Conesa (age 19), Adelina García Casillas (age 19), Elena Gil Olaya (age 20), Virtudes González García (age 18), Ana López Gallego (age 21), Joaquina López Laffite (age 23), Dionisia Manzanero Salas (age 20), Victoria Muñoz García (age 19), and Luisa Rodríguez de la Fuente (age 18).[2] Seven of the women were under age - in Francoist Spain the age of majority was 21.   


Podemos co-founder Carolina Bescansa will be the Más País candidate for A Coruña (Galicia). Más País also hired three women associated to the Errejón faction in Podemos as candidates for Andalusian provinces: Esperanza Gómez (Sevilla), Carmen Lizárraga (Málaga) and Ana terrón (Granada). Esperanza Gómez is currently senator for Adelante Andalucía. She competed against Teresa Rodríguez for the Podemos leadership in Andalusia and was defeated. Más País is collecting signatures to run for Barcelona, as there's no coalition deal with Equo in this province and it's a necessary requirement for new parties collecting an amount equivalent to 0.1% of the census roll. The Errejón party will postpone the decision to run Barcelona until the last minute, but everything points Más País will compete while tries to minimize conflict with En Comú Podem and Ada Colau. Finally, the Más País ballot will have a picture of Errejón. The Podemos ballot in the 2014 EP election had a picture of Pablo Iglesias, while the Más Madrid ballot in the 2019 regional elections had a picture of Manuela Carmena and Ïñigo Errejón.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on October 06, 2019, 10:22:29 AM
The big news yesterday was the decision to to lift the veto on Pedro Sánchez made by Albert Rivera, unanimously approved by the Cs executive committee. Rivera proposed ten reforms with "social emphasis" for a big deal between "constitutionalist" parties, surprising again his ranks with this new swerve. Then the Cs leader made a long speech with references to the original rhetoric of the party, such as overcoming the divide between "reds" and "blues", the Holy Transition to Democracy, the Moncloa Pacts and so on. Rivera committed to call Pablo Casado on election night if the Right has the numbers, but also to call Pedro Sánchez and "talk about reforms". By themoment Cs rules out a coalition government with the socialists, but now oranges are open to facilitate the investiture of Pedro Sánchez in case there is an agreement on the proposed reforms. The latter are not "conditions", but "proposals open to agreement" and address a number of issues such as: education, healthcare system, pensions, fight against depopulation, tax cuts for families or suppression of 'privileges' for politicians. The umpteenth swerve of Rivera comes five weeks before the elections and with bad polling.

Cs new slogan España en Marcha ("Spain Underway") is apparently a Macron plagiarism, but unfortunately for Rivera "La España en Marcha" was the motto that grouped some far right and neo nazi parties to contest the EP 2014 elections.

Pedro Sánchez replied somewhat contemptuously to the Rivera offer: "we are not asking the Cs support, we just want it doesn't block". The PSOE strategy seems focused on catching Cs voters.  Sánchez is conveying moderation, stability and order. Also, it's remarkable the harsher tone of Sánchez towards Catalan separatists. After the failed attempts of dialogue with the regional government led by Quim Torra and the Colón Square rally, the PSOE exploded and Sánchez made a turn. He broke with the separatist parties and the budget was rejected by the latter, leading to the April elections. Now firmness against separatism is at the heart of the socialist campaign. I's important to remark, however, there are degrees of "firmness" that differentiate the parties. Cs is the party with the most radical stance demanding the implementation of a "hard 155" (direct rule); PP is in a "moderate" turn and just demands the immediate implementation of the national security law, in order that central government takes control of regional police (Mossos de Esquadra); PSOE says the government is monitoring the ac compliance with laws and won't hesitate to intervene in case it's necessary.

The court ruling on the separatist leaders will focus the campaign on Catalonia from mid October onward, as well there are other fronts open such as Brexit (EU summit Oct 17-18) and economic slowdown. Socialists expect to make electoral gains in Catalonia at the expense of Cs, while the PP will struggle to recover from the dismal result obtained April.

The PSOE's current slogan is Ahora, Gobierno. Ahora, España ("Now, Government. Now, Spain")

GESOP poll for El Periódico de Catalunya

() (https://ibb.co/vYqdZjw)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on October 06, 2019, 10:30:23 AM
Assuming a status quo election where some seats get shuffled within the Right and Left blocs without changing the big puture, will UP and/or Más País back Pedro Sánchez  this time around?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on October 07, 2019, 04:49:08 AM
The left seems to be doing better in terms of %'s now that Más País is in. I wonder what do you all think about that. Like, why do you think that is, do you think their numbers will hold, etc.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Astatine on October 07, 2019, 05:24:19 AM
Ciudadanos will run on a joint list with Union, Progress and Democracy (UPyD) for the elections, just like in the EU elections.

Does anyone believe this will have any impact? In EU elections a Cs-UPyD pact made sense to some extent as UPyD still had an MEP to defend, but now? Centrist and anti-separatist UPyD had some good polling results from 2011 (when the got almost 5 %) to 2014 (when Cs started to rise), but back then talks for an electoral alliance were not successful, so major members of the party left it and after disastrous results in the 2015 regional and municipal elections, UPyD leader Rosa Diez (around whom the party was basically built), resigned and withdrew from politics, even leaving her party after a 0.6 % showing in the 2015 elections. In 2016, UPyD went on to decline to 0.2 %. And last time they did not even run.
So what is the matter of this pact (which comes five years too late) anyways?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on October 07, 2019, 09:01:12 PM
.Changes of strategy: Cs now open to deals with the PSOE and PP focusing on economy

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/10/07/inenglish/1570432888_983235.html

Quote
As Spaniards gear up for a repeat national election following months of parliamentary stalemate, political parties are redesigning their campaign strategies – some very noticeably so.

Ciudadanos (Citizens), which started out as a liberal reform party but veered to the right ahead of the April 28 election, is now back where it was seven months ago. Party leader Albert Rivera on Saturday surprised supporters by announcing that he is lifting the “veto” on doing deals with the Socialist Party (PSOE) that he introduced in February of this year (...)

Meanwhile, Spain’s main conservative party is also making overtures to the PSOE ahead of November 10. Pablo Casado, the president of the Popular Party (PP), was in the northwestern region of Galicia on Sunday to send out a new message of moderation, following a strident campaign earlier this year during which he had called Pedro Sánchez irresponsible, incapable, disloyal, incompetent, mediocre, and a compulsive liar, among other epithets.

After losing 71 seats at that election, Casado is now avoiding highly charged political issues and focusing instead on the economy with a message that only the PP can save the country from an impending new crisis.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on October 07, 2019, 09:07:25 PM
Assuming a status quo election where some seats get shuffled within the Right and Left blocs without changing the big puture, will UP and/or Más País back Pedro Sánchez  this time around?

It's hard to tell, especially when the PSOE is turning to the centre and the attitude of PP and Cs is changing (read article in the post above). As I said in a previous post, Albert Rivera lifted his veto on Pedro Sánchez. PP leader Pablo Casado stated recently he would be more open to unlock the situation than the last time around. On the other hand, I don't think that Sánchez is willing to make a coalition agreement with UP and MP. I think it's unlikely that Pablo Iglesias relinquishes his demands in case he manages to resist and polls suggest he will.

The left seems to be doing better in terms of %'s now that Más País is in. I wonder what do you all think about that. Like, why do you think that is, do you think their numbers will hold, etc.

Polls predicted before April elections the Right would get a vote share higher than the Left. The actual result was a dead heat between the Left and the Right, with the former winning more seats due to a higher vote split in the latter. The surge of Más País means that the leftwing vote will be more splitted in the big constituencies, while it's up to see the Errejón party contributes to halt demobilization. Take polls and predictions with loads of salt.

Ciudadanos will run on a joint list with Union, Progress and Democracy (UPyD) for the elections, just like in the EU elections.

Does anyone believe this will have any impact? In EU elections a Cs-UPyD pact made sense to some extent as UPyD still had an MEP to defend, but now? Centrist and anti-separatist UPyD had some good polling results from 2011 (when the got almost 5 %) to 2014 (when Cs started to rise), but back then talks for an electoral alliance were not successful, so major members of the party left it and after disastrous results in the 2015 regional and municipal elections, UPyD leader Rosa Diez (around whom the party was basically built), resigned and withdrew from politics, even leaving her party after a 0.6 % showing in the 2015 elections. In 2016, UPyD went on to decline to 0.2 %. And last time they did not even run.
So what is the matter of this pact (which comes five years too late) anyways?

No meaningful impact but the mere symbolism. The alliance between Cs and UPyD may well be a sign that Cs is "returning to the origins": centrism, liberalism (centralist in the Spanish tradition), stance against corruption (regenerationism) and peripheral nationalism


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on October 14, 2019, 04:32:53 AM
The ruling against the Catalan politicians in prison for the 2017 events has just been published. The ruling is:

Rebellion: Not Guilty
Sedition: Guilty
Public funds misuse: Guilty; but Rull, Forn, Vila, Mundó and Borràs found not guilty
Disobedience: Guilty

The jail times are as follows:

Oriol Junqueras (Deputy premier and regional minister of the economy): 13 years in prison
Jordi Turull (Government speaker): 12 years in prison
Raul Romeva (Regional minister of foreign affairs): 12 years in prison
Joaquim Forn (Regional minister of the interior): 10 years and 6 months in prison
Dolors Bassa (Regional minister of labour and social affairs): 12 years in prison
Josep Rull (Regional minister of territory and sustainability): 10 years and 6 months in prison
Carme Forcadell (Parliament speaker): 11 years and 6 months in prison

Jordi Sanchez (President of the "Catalan National Assembly" association): 9 years in prison
Jordi Cuixart (President of the "Òmnium Cultural" association): 9 years in prison

Santi Vila (Regional minister of business): 1 year and 8 months without holding public office
Carles Mundó (Regional minister of justice): 1 year and 8 months without holding public office
Meritxel Borràs (Regional minister of governance): 1 year and 8 months without holding public office

From here several options can happen:

-The guilty politicians can appeal to the Spanish Constitutional Court or claim their rights were infringed upon on Spanish courts. Both will be rejected. After that they can appeal to the European Human Rights Court on similar reasons which they probably will do.

-Pedro Sánchez (or whoever ends up as PM) could pardon the Catalan politicians. This is something that would be extremely controversial especially within PSOE, but it could theoretically happen. For what's worth, Felipe González eventually pardoned General Armada and others for the 1981 coup (but not the main culprit, Antonio Tejero)

-The Catalan politicians could be given penitentiary benefits in a very brief period of time. This decision is made by the Catalan bureaucracy. If given the "Open Regime" or "Third grade", they would be free during the weekend and during weekdays and would only be in prison to sleep Monday-Thursday. If given the "Regular Regime" or "Second Grade" it would be a standard jail sentence, where they spend most of their  time in prison and are only allowed to exit for weekend trips or some sort of work. This decision can be appealed.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on October 14, 2019, 12:46:03 PM
This is insane.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: urutzizu on October 14, 2019, 01:59:23 PM

Why? Whether one agrees with Catalan Independence as a principle or not, what they did and the way that they did it was clearly a violation of the law and the Constitution. The Spanish Constitutional Court made that very clear before they did it, and they still went ahead with it. I have no doubt that every Court in a Country with the rule of law would have judged the same as the Spanish Supreme Court just did.  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on October 14, 2019, 02:16:02 PM

Why? Whether one agrees with Catalan Independence as a principle or not, what they did and the way that they did it was clearly a violation of the law and the Constitution. The Spanish Constitutional Court made that very clear before they did it, and they still went ahead with it. I have no doubt that every Court in a Country with the rule of law would have judged the same as the Spanish Supreme Court just did. 

I don't even agree with Catalan Independence as a principle!

For crying out loud, we're talking about locking people up for more than a decade for holding a sham referendum that would have changed nothing even if it had been allowed. This is a comical level of overreaction (or it would be comical if actual people's lives hadn't been ruined by it). Libertarians love to talk on and on about "victimless crimes", but this IS the ultimate victimless crime. No tangible harm whatsoever was caused by the referendum itself - in fact, most of the harm came, again, from the Spanish state's paranoid attempts to stop the referendum. This is exactly the kind of repressive escalation that's likely to drive more Catalans toward nationalism, and break the country apart.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: urutzizu on October 14, 2019, 02:32:39 PM
For crying out loud, we're talking about locking people up for more than a decade for holding a sham referendum that would have changed nothing even if it had been allowed. This is a comical level of overreaction (or it would be comical if actual people's lives hadn't been ruined by it). Libertarians love to talk on and on about "victimless crimes", but this IS the ultimate victimless crime. No tangible harm whatsoever was caused by the referendum itself - in fact, most of the harm came, again, from the Spanish state's paranoid attempts to stop the referendum. This is exactly the kind of repressive escalation that's likely to drive more Catalans toward nationalism, and break the country apart.

No person was harmed directly - I agree - but the Rechtsstaat was. If Politicians are allowed to violate the Constitution so brazenly and get away with it - whats to stop others from abusing their powers? To take a example from the United States - noone was directly harmed when Trump conspired with a foreign state - and noone was directly harmed when the Polish Government started undermining the rule of law - but they should still be held criminally responsible. Otherwise one emboldens Politicians to erode of the rule of law and violate the constitution even further.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on October 14, 2019, 03:16:01 PM
Yes, people were clearly and meaningfully harmed in both those instances. That's a ridiculous parallel.

A sham referendum is just a sham referendum. You enforce the rule of law by letting it happen and letting everyone see that it meant nothing.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: CumbrianLefty on October 14, 2019, 06:22:49 PM
I mean, how can anybody seriously believe such a ludicrously draconian response can end well?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on October 14, 2019, 06:50:48 PM
I mean crimes like public funds misuse and corruption are also technically "victimless crimes". Except they are not. The victim in those cases is society as a whole.

This also applies here; the victim in this crime is Spanish society and the state as a whole.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on October 14, 2019, 08:04:53 PM

Why? Whether one agrees with Catalan Independence as a principle or not, what they did and the way that they did it was clearly a violation of the law and the Constitution. The Spanish Constitutional Court made that very clear before they did it, and they still went ahead with it. I have no doubt that every Court in a Country with the rule of law would have judged the same as the Spanish Supreme Court just did.  

I don't even agree with Catalan Independence as a principle!

For crying out loud, we're talking about locking people up for more than a decade for holding a sham referendum that would have changed nothing even if it had been allowed. This is a comical level of overreaction (or it would be comical if actual people's lives hadn't been ruined by it). Libertarians love to talk on and on about "victimless crimes", but this IS the ultimate victimless crime. No tangible harm whatsoever was caused by the referendum itself - in fact, most of the harm came, again, from the Spanish state's paranoid attempts to stop the referendum. This is exactly the kind of repressive escalation that's likely to drive more Catalans toward nationalism, and break the country apart.

It wasn't only the sham referéndum. Much more serious, in my opinion, was the legislation passed weeks before by the Parliament of Catalonia,  which allegedly paved the way to the referendum revoking the validity of the Spanish Constitution an the Catalan Statute of Autonomy. The following month (late October, 2017) was voted the unilateral declaration of independence.

The Catalan separatist leaders breached the laws, performing a baroque pantomime of disobedience. I feel they are guilty for causing division and pain within the society, telling lies to their supporters with deceptive fairy tales, childishness and irresponsibility. Making things worse, separatists even lacked popular legitimacy. They have a narrow majority in parliament with less than a half of the popular vote. However they assumed to be acting in the name of all the Catalan people, while ignoring the other half of Catalans.

I think all this madness must have consequences (premier Torra, who is a hooligan, said that anything but release was unacceptable), but I wouldn't call it "sedition" and would never have sent the perpetrators 9 to 13 years in prison. The punishment is not as hard as "rebellion", but is still disproportionate. The inept Vox lawyer and secretary general, Javier Ortega Smith, thinks the ruling of the Supreme Court has been too soft...

(I'll be out for some days or weeks, possibly will be back for the elections)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Zinneke on October 15, 2019, 02:59:04 AM
I mean crimes like public funds misuse and corruption are also technically "victimless crimes". Except they are not. The victim in those cases is society as a whole.

This also applies here; the victim in this crime is Spanish society and the state as a whole.

This kind of measure will definitely improve the fulcrum of Spanish society.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Farmlands on October 15, 2019, 08:32:47 AM
I mean crimes like public funds misuse and corruption are also technically "victimless crimes". Except they are not. The victim in those cases is society as a whole.

This also applies here; the victim in this crime is Spanish society and the state as a whole.

Manifestations in favour of Spanish unity sure can cause high tempers and frissures in society, yet they are lauded by politicians, but God forbid arranging meetings for separatists, now that is surely an unthinkable crime worthy of nine freaking years in prison. From a portuguese very disappointed with its neighbour country.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on October 15, 2019, 12:14:36 PM
I can't believe people here are seriously defending locking people up for longer than that Dallas killer cop for the crime of holding a fake election, in the name of MUH NATIONAL UNITY or some other abstract bullsh*t. Seems like the authoritarian culture in Spanish society hasn't declined all that much since Franco's days.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on October 15, 2019, 01:17:55 PM
I mean crimes like public funds misuse and corruption are also technically "victimless crimes". Except they are not. The victim in those cases is society as a whole.

This also applies here; the victim in this crime is Spanish society and the state as a whole.

This kind of measure will definitely improve the fulcrum of Spanish society.

Spain is already divided and this ruling is roughly along the lines of what was expected (it was also partially leaked a few days before so it's not a massive surprise). This won't improve things but it certainly isn't making them much worse.

Also, this is probably the "lesser evil" sentence. Let's look at the other 2 main possibilities:

1) The Catalan politicians are found guilty of rebellion. This means even longer prison sentences (25 years) and basically means this would be equivalent to the 1981 coup attempt. The Spanish right would be happy, but Catalonia would be on fire right now (even more so) and the Spanish left would be very split (Podemos against and PSOE probably with a "we disagree but this needs to be respected" opinion I guess).

2) The Catalan politicians are found not guilty of all charges (other than disobedience which technically does not carry a prison sentence). Secessionists would be happy but it's not as if they are suddenly going to stop and become unionists. And of course the Spanish right would be furious and demanding appeals somewhere or changing the criminal code. They probably also get a big boost in the November election.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Farmlands on October 15, 2019, 01:47:55 PM
I mean crimes like public funds misuse and corruption are also technically "victimless crimes". Except they are not. The victim in those cases is society as a whole.

This also applies here; the victim in this crime is Spanish society and the state as a whole.

This kind of measure will definitely improve the fulcrum of Spanish society.

Spain is already divided and this ruling is roughly along the lines of what was expected (it was also partially leaked a few days before so it's not a massive surprise). This won't improve things but it certainly isn't making them much worse.

Also, this is probably the "lesser evil" sentence. Let's look at the other 2 main possibilities:

1) The Catalan politicians are found guilty of rebellion. This means even longer prison sentences (25 years) and basically means this would be equivalent to the 1981 coup attempt. The Spanish right would be happy, but Catalonia would be on fire right now (even more so) and the Spanish left would be very split (Podemos against and PSOE probably with a "we disagree but this needs to be respected" opinion I guess).

2) The Catalan politicians are found not guilty of all charges (other than disobedience which technically does not carry a prison sentence). Secessionists would be happy but it's not as if they are suddenly going to stop and become unionists. And of course the Spanish right would be furious and demanding appeals somewhere or changing the criminal code. They probably also get a big boost in the November election.



So, in your view, it's absolutely reasonable for people whose worse crime was setting up reunions get sentenced to 9 years in jail, because keeping the right wingers at bay overweighs human rights (logic which has been used to justify many atrocities throughout history). Calling it a case of messed up priorities would be an understatement.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on October 15, 2019, 01:53:33 PM

So, in your view, it's absolutely reasonable for people whose worse crime was setting up reunions get sentenced to 9 years in jail, because keeping the right wingers at bay overweighs human rights (logic which has been used to justify many atrocities throughout history). Calling it a case of messed up priorities would be an understatement.

Their "worst crime" was not setting up reunions lol. They organized a massive illegal referendum, breaking multiple laws that ended with several incidents in the streets (though that was unfortunate).

They also repeatedly passed laws to secede Catalonia illegally and to not respect the Spanish Constitution and even the Catalan regional constitution! (Apparently 68/135 votes in favour is enough to unilaterally secede but not to reform the regional constitution).

They repeatedly broke the law and they got punished for it. The punishment is also mostly fair in my opinion.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: urutzizu on October 15, 2019, 01:56:19 PM
Offences against the State do actually exist, even if one dislikes this fact on moral grounds, and they do exist in any Jurisdiction in the world, not just in Spain.
Having a referendum was not illegal, in fact they could have had it perfectly legally if they would have done it as a private initiative, that means used their own money, their own ballot papers, their own polling stations and so on. Or they could have just done it on the Internet like the Venetians did.
What was a crime, was them embezzling public money on a illegal referendum, going against multiple judgements of the Constitutional Court and ripping up the Spanish Constitution. Those are against the law in every western country, namely misuse of public funds, contempt of court and sedition against the constitution and they would be held accountable for them. And they do have victims, as tack correctly pointed out.    

Leaving that aside, the Spanish State does not have any obligation to allow a referendum at all, especially not a sham referendum. Spain is allowed to secure its territorial integrity as it sees fit. One can of course take the British approach, that is let them have a referendum, and if they dont like the result allow another ... and so on. That Spain refuses to go down that path however, is why, odds are, that Spain will still be one country in 10 years time, while Britain will not. ;)  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on October 15, 2019, 02:05:05 PM
Whatever. Fine them for the cost of the referendum if you really want the money back. Just don't throw people in prison for a political crime.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: urutzizu on October 15, 2019, 02:13:10 PM
Even if Embezzlement were their only crime, that by itself already is punishable with long prison sentences. Up to ten years (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/641) in the U.S. for instance.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: parochial boy on October 15, 2019, 02:15:03 PM
What I particularly like about the Catalan issue is how utterly unsympathetic both the Catalan and Spanish nationalists come across as. Turning this into a protracted constitutional crisis in what, lets be honest, is a country that has already had an unfairly rough time really deserves nothing but scorn.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on October 15, 2019, 02:22:31 PM
Even if Embezzlement were their only crime, that by itself already is punishable with long prison sentences. Up to ten years (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/641) in the U.S. for instance.

For a comparison, former regional presidents of Andalucía: Manuel Chaves and Antonio Griñán are currently on trial for a corruption and embezzlement case (ERE case). The amount of money stolen is much higher than in the Catalan one. The Spanish prosecutors are asking for 6 years in prison for them.

The amount of money is much higher (iirc the money embezzled was about 1 million € for Catalonia compared to roughly 145 million for the ERE case) so it also follows that the jail time will be lower.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on October 16, 2019, 07:01:38 AM
Lots of big protests have happened in Catalonia since the ruling was published, beginning with a takeover of Barcelona airport. Some protests have had some violent incidents, and the rail service to France was disrupted.

Protests will continue for at the very least the rest of the week, culminating on a general strike on Friday.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/16/police-clash-with-catalonia-protesters-in-second-night-of-violence


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Lord Halifax on October 16, 2019, 11:23:15 AM
If the right wins (PP/C/Vox have a majority) how difficult will it be for Casado and Rivera to agree on a coalition and secure support from Vox? And how long do you expect the negotiations to last?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Simfan34 on October 18, 2019, 06:19:55 PM
How exactly is government formation going to work here?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: SPQR on October 19, 2019, 04:43:47 AM
It seems obvious that the Catalan issue will be the defining one for the next GE.
Don't really know how it will affect the parties...will Vox rise to third place?
Will Cs recover some credibility?
Will Sanchez's handling of the crisis get him over the line without the Catalan parties - I guess they wouldn't happily support a PSOE-UP government right now...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on October 19, 2019, 06:34:58 AM
Sanchéz strategy, IMO, seems to let the protests and violent clashes create a mood of frustration and anger in the Catalan society against the independence movements. If, in the past, sending more police to Barcelona didn't help, could the "let them burn strategy", and Torra's ridiculous flip-flop about the protests, turn many people in Catalonia against independence? 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: bigic on October 20, 2019, 01:25:50 PM
"Teruel Existe" might get in



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: El Betico on October 21, 2019, 06:15:59 PM
I'm worried. Without the Catalans and the pro-ETA Basques I don't think there will be a left-wing majority...still, I don't want a Spanish version of Grosse Koalition...in other words, I don't expect next election to be resolutive.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: ctrepublican512 on October 25, 2019, 04:35:47 AM
From the polls I’ve seen...is it safe to assume C vote is going to PP and Vox is maintaining their 10% and change?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on October 26, 2019, 06:23:05 AM
I haven't been covering the election much or even paying much attention to be honest. Still, here are the campaign slogan from each of the parties in Congress right now that I could find. These seem to be pre-campaign slogans, so they will probably add a 2nd formal campaign slogan next weekend:

PSOE: Spain Now (España Ahora)
PP: For everything that unites us (Por todo lo que nos une)
Cs: Spain on the move (España en marcha)
Podemos: A government with you (Un gobierno contigo)
Vox: Spain forever (España siempre)

Notice Vox's campaign slogan is a direct attack to PSOE. Similarly, Cs seems to have gone full Macron lol.

I was unable to find the slogans from any of the nationalist and regional parties for some reason.

From the polls I’ve seen...is it safe to assume C vote is going to PP and Vox is maintaining their 10% and change?

Yeah, many former Cs voters seem to be going to PP for some reason. Meanwhile Vox isn't just maintaining their 10% but actually expanding on it a bit. In fact I would put them as slight favourites for being third.

I'm worried. Without the Catalans and the pro-ETA Basques I don't think there will be a left-wing majority...still, I don't want a Spanish version of Grosse Koalition...in other words, I
 don't expect next election to be resolutive.

The worst case scenario for the left (barring a PP-Cs-Vox win of course) is a scenario where ruling the country depends on JxCat and CUP. If that happens, Spain will get a third election or a grand coalition.

However I don't think a grand coalition is likely at all (or for that matter a PSOE minority propped up by PP abstaining). Either way, I agree this election won't be resolutive at all and the next parliament won't last for that long.

I wonder how long until politicians start advocating for a more majoritarian system. I have seen a Greece style bonus to the winner floated from time to time, which I personally dislike a lot. I've also seen 2 round systems or "automatic majority" systems floated, though usually for local elections only.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on October 26, 2019, 06:28:16 AM
Also if anyone is interested, here is the current polling average:

PSOE: 27.3% (122)
PP: 22.1% (100)
UP: 12.4% (32)
Vox: 10.9% (33)
Cs: 9.8% (19)
MP: 4.4% (5)
Others: 39

Vox ties Podemos in seats despite losing the popular vote because of their more rural vote distribution (Vox gets a lot of former Cs seats in inland Spain); and also a more efficient one (Vox wastes less votes in Catalonia/Basque Country and the like than Podemos wastes in inland rural Spain)

By coalition:

PSOE-UP-MP: 44.1% (159)
PP-Cs-Vox: 42.8% (152)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: ctrepublican512 on October 28, 2019, 04:59:21 PM
It would be insane for PP to not have Vox in a coalition if the votes are there at this point, correct?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on October 28, 2019, 05:43:06 PM
Man C's really blew it. First they try to reorient hard to the right, and lose their centrist voters. After realizing said voters were far more numerous then their elected politicians would suggest, the return to the center. But now they lose the nationalist-right wing of their party who jumped for the now appealing parties. Meanwhile the centrist type of voters won't come back because C's factional problems are now laid wide for all to see.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on October 28, 2019, 05:48:19 PM
Also if anyone is interested, here is the current polling average:

PSOE: 27.3% (122)
PP: 22.1% (100)
UP: 12.4% (32)
Vox: 10.9% (33)
Cs: 9.8% (19)
MP: 4.4% (5)
Others: 39

Vox ties Podemos in seats despite losing the popular vote because of their more rural vote distribution (Vox gets a lot of former Cs seats in inland Spain); and also a more efficient one (Vox wastes less votes in Catalonia/Basque Country and the like than Podemos wastes in inland rural Spain)

By coalition:

PSOE-UP-MP: 44.1% (159)
PP-Cs-Vox: 42.8% (152)

Should we not add NA+ to the Center-Right bloc ?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on October 28, 2019, 05:49:49 PM
Also if anyone is interested, here is the current polling average:

PSOE: 27.3% (122)
PP: 22.1% (100)
UP: 12.4% (32)
Vox: 10.9% (33)
Cs: 9.8% (19)
MP: 4.4% (5)
Others: 39

Vox ties Podemos in seats despite losing the popular vote because of their more rural vote distribution (Vox gets a lot of former Cs seats in inland Spain); and also a more efficient one (Vox wastes less votes in Catalonia/Basque Country and the like than Podemos wastes in inland rural Spain)

By coalition:

PSOE-UP-MP: 44.1% (159)
PP-Cs-Vox: 42.8% (152)

Should we not add NA+ to the Center-Right bloc ?

You can if you want I guess but most polls do put them separately I think. Anyways it's a small change, just add about 0.2-0.3% in the popular vote and 2 seats to the right in that case.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on October 29, 2019, 07:53:02 AM
Went out to buy bread, ended up finding PM Pedro Sánchez exiting a bar to deliver a speech:

()

Apparently Sánchez came to town to campaign, since PSOE wants to capture Palencia's third deputy (the province only elects 3 deputies since it's so small), which they narrowly lost to C's in the previous election. The April results were these:

PSOE: 31.3 (1)
PP: 29.6 (1)
C's:15.9 (1)
VOX: 11.7
UP:9.2

Now, since Ciudadanos seems to have collapsed and the PP has recovered in the polls, I think it's more likely that the PP ends up winning that third seat. I'm not an expert though.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: ctrepublican512 on October 29, 2019, 03:05:31 PM
Spain, CIS poll:

PSOE-S&D: 32% (+3)
PP-EPP: 18% (+1)
UP-LEFT: 15% (+1)
Cs-RE: 11% (-4)
VOX-ECR: 8% (-2)
ERC-G/EFA: 4%
MP-LEFT|G/EFA: 3% (+2)
JxCat-NI: 2%
PNV-RE: 2%
...

+/- vs. April election

Fieldwork: 21/09-13/10/2019
Sample size: 17,650
europeelects.eu/spain


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on October 30, 2019, 03:31:04 AM
Spain, CIS poll:

PSOE-S&D: 32% (+3)
PP-EPP: 18% (+1)
UP-LEFT: 15% (+1)
Cs-RE: 11% (-4)
VOX-ECR: 8% (-2)
ERC-G/EFA: 4%
MP-LEFT|G/EFA: 3% (+2)
JxCat-NI: 2%
PNV-RE: 2%
...

+/- vs. April election

Fieldwork: 21/09-13/10/2019
Sample size: 17,650
europeelects.eu/spain

If this happens then I was wrong and Sanchez is a genius. Also, I might move to Spain. On the other hand, it's one poll.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on October 30, 2019, 03:40:06 AM
CIS polls are a meme at this point and should be discarded.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on October 30, 2019, 03:44:30 AM
CIS polls are a meme at this point and should be discarded.

I mean, I haven't requested a visa quite yet.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: ctrepublican512 on October 30, 2019, 10:27:59 AM
Spain, SyM Consulting poll:

PSOE-S&D: 27% (-2)
PP-EPP: 22% (+5)
VOX-ECR: 14% (+4)
Cs-RE: 10% (-6)
UP-LEFT: 10% (-4)
ERC-G/EFA: 4%
MP-LEFT|G/EFA: 3% (+2)

+/- vs. April 2019 election

Fieldwork: 26-27 October 2019
Sample size: 1,923
europeelects.eu/spain


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: El Betico on October 31, 2019, 07:24:44 PM
Spain, CIS poll:

PSOE-S&D: 32% (+3)
PP-EPP: 18% (+1)
UP-LEFT: 15% (+1)
Cs-RE: 11% (-4)
VOX-ECR: 8% (-2)
ERC-G/EFA: 4%
MP-LEFT|G/EFA: 3% (+2)
JxCat-NI: 2%
PNV-RE: 2%
...

+/- vs. April election

Fieldwork: 21/09-13/10/2019
Sample size: 17,650
europeelects.eu/spain

Dream


Spain, SyM Consulting poll:

PSOE-S&D: 27% (-2)
PP-EPP: 22% (+5)
VOX-ECR: 14% (+4)
Cs-RE: 10% (-6)
UP-LEFT: 10% (-4)
ERC-G/EFA: 4%
MP-LEFT|G/EFA: 3% (+2)

+/- vs. April 2019 election

Fieldwork: 26-27 October 2019
Sample size: 1,923
europeelects.eu/spain

Nightmare


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 02, 2019, 07:23:55 AM
The election campaign has just started, and that means I am posting all the election posters. First of all, the posters from the national parties. The slogans are the same I posted earlier, so no reason to translate them again.

()

()

()

()

()

()

To be honest they all look very similar and none are that appealing imo. I guess PSOE has the least bad one (horrible text placement though). Vox is also decent and MP goes with an interesting non-rectangular poster).

Meanwhile, here are the ones from the regional parties as well as translated slogans:

ERC: "We will come back stronger" https://ep01.epimg.net/ccaa/imagenes/2019/10/28/catalunya/1572268034_524107_1572268268_noticia_normal.jpg
JxCat: "For Catalonia, for independence, no steps backwards".
https://media.theobjective.com/2019/10/jxcat-hara-campana-con-presos-en-los-carteles-y-el-lema-ni-un-voto-atras.jpg
PNV: "Here PNV"
https://www.eaj-pnv.eus/redimstd/1200/675/adjuntos/pnvNoticias/49488_imagen_0.jpg/eaj-pnv-activa-su-servicio-especial-de-comunicacio
Bildu: "One more step"
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EIRanTPXkAAEP-L.jpg:large
CC-NC: "Let's make the Canaries stronger"
https://elapuron.com/media/2019/11/post/Pegada-Carteles-La-Palma.jpg
PRC: "Cantabria wins"
https://m.eldiario.es/fotos/repeticion-electoral-propicia-partidos-abstencion_EDIIMA20191101_0008_4.jpg

CUP: "Ungovernables"
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EIR1-UEX0AEI6s2.jpg:large
Teruel Exists: "It's Teruel's turn"
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EIRsASkXUAAd7no.jpg


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan on November 02, 2019, 08:33:47 AM
Probably the best illustration of the problem with the machismo and "strong leaders" in Spanish politics.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 04, 2019, 05:52:10 AM
Probably the best illustration of the problem with the machismo and "strong leaders" in Spanish politics.

Yeah I guess. That also makes the minor parties more interesting, particularly TE and CUP. The former using a map of Teruel province and the latter using an upside down picture of the famous lion statues in the door of the Spanish congress.

Another interesting minor poster is that from PRC, who is literally just recycling their April posters and slogans lol.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 04, 2019, 06:05:41 AM
Anyways, today was the last day that polling was legally allowed to be published. Not sure if we will see more polls tonight, but most pollsters seem to have published them between Sunday night and Monday morning. I will not post all of them, but I will post the final polling average:

PSOE: 27% (118)
PP: 21% (96)
Vox: 14% (46)
UP: 12% (33)
Cs: 9% (14)
MP: 4% (4)
Others: 39

Total left: 43% (155)
Total right: 44% (156)

So a total tie. In theory this would mean the election is too close to call, but the right has literally no allies within the "others" group (other than NA+ and maybe CC, and this last one is a stretch)

In terms of the evolution, the big changes seem to be a total Cs collapse and a massive rise for Vox. Keep in mind that Vox will get very few votes and no seats in like a third of the country (Catalonia, Basque Country, Canary Islands, Galicia); so the fact that they are this high is remarkable as it means they would be close to 20% in the rest of Spain!

In fact a recient regional poll of Andalucia put Vox in a clear third and within the margin of error from PP! For some reason the former stronghold of the left is making a hard right wing turn. If you are a believer in the Global Trends stuff, I guess Andalucia and Southern Spain are full of #populists <3 while Catalonia is full of #coastal elitists  </3

If anyone is interested in sub-national polling Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-national_opinion_polling_for_the_November_2019_Spanish_general_election) has a great database


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 04, 2019, 06:23:04 AM
Total left: 43% (155)
Total right: 44% (156)

So a total tie. In theory this would mean the election is too close to call, but the right has literally no allies within the "others" group (other than NA+ and maybe CC, and this last one is a stretch)

The Right bloc was leading in the polls for the April elections, and the final result was a near-tie. El País seems to have erased their aggregate polling for the April elections, so I don't know the exact numbers.

Now the blocs are tied, so I guess either one of them could overperform!

In terms of the evolution, the big changes seem to be a total Cs collapse and a massive rise for Vox. Keep in mind that Vox will get very few votes and no seats in like a third of the country (Catalonia, Basque Country, Canary Islands, Galicia); so the fact that they are this high is remarkable as it means they would be close to 20% in the rest of Spain!

I'm super interested in the places where C's ran strong in the April elections. Places like the PAU's in northern Madrid (Las Tablas, Valdebebas), the wealthy municipalities to the northwest of Madrid (Pozuelo de Alarcón, Las Rozas de Madrid). Heck, near where I live, in Valladolid C's performed quite well, they got over 20% in most of the (I guess you could call them suburban?) municipalities that surround the capital city. Given their collapse in the polls, I wonder where most of their votes will end up now.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on November 05, 2019, 11:32:26 AM
Heh.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 05, 2019, 11:37:07 AM
Of course, what would any Spanish election be without analyzing the price of fruits in Andorra :P

Tbh I wonder if we will ever get rid of this dumb old custom. It should probably be reduced to just the last day (Saturday before the election); not the entire week.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 05, 2019, 05:44:59 PM
I suspect Vox will have a great election night. Santiago Abascal was the winner of the TV debate held on Monday, according to some commentators.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/11/05/inenglish/1572942887_385671.html

Quote
The televised debate on Monday night between the five main candidates to become Spain’s next prime minister underscored that the battle for votes is taking place in the center of the political spectrum (...) 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 06, 2019, 03:55:49 AM
I suspect Vox will have a great election night. Santiago Abascal was the winner of the TV debate held on Monday, according to some commentators.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/11/05/inenglish/1572942887_385671.html

Quote
The televised debate on Monday night between the five main candidates to become Spain’s next prime minister underscored that the battle for votes is taking place in the center of the political spectrum (...) 

To be fair, the polling trends before the debate clearly had VOX rising, if they do perform well, I don't think we'll know exactly how much of that was because of the debate.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 06, 2019, 09:30:52 AM
GESOP for El Periòdic D'Andorra

PSOE 26.6% 115-120
PP 19% 80-85
VOX 15% 50-55
UP 12.8% 34-38
Cs 8.2% 13-17
ERC 3.6% 14-15
MP 2.8% 2-4
JxCAT1.5% 6-7
CUP 1.5% 4-5
Others 9% 14-17

https://sondeos.elperiodic.ad/sondeo-elecciones-generales-noviembre-2019-primera-entrega.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 06, 2019, 09:40:41 AM
I suspect Vox will have a great election night. Santiago Abascal was the winner of the TV debate held on Monday, according to some commentators.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/11/05/inenglish/1572942887_385671.html

Quote
The televised debate on Monday night between the five main candidates to become Spain’s next prime minister underscored that the battle for votes is taking place in the center of the political spectrum (...)

To be fair, the polling trends before the debate clearly had VOX rising, if they do perform well, I don't think we'll know exactly how much of that was because of the debate.

I know. Turbulence in Catalonia favours the mobilization of ultra-nationalist voters (VOX in the rest of Spain and CUP in Catalonia); election fatigue favours abstention, particularly in the left. Perfect recipe for a nightmarish scenario. The point is that Abascal was perceived as the winner because nobody challenged his demagoguery and fake arguments, as well because people is fed up with the rest of leaders. Only Iglesias made a decent performance, but not as good as in the April debate.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: DL on November 06, 2019, 11:27:35 AM
GESOP for El Periòdic D'Andorra

PSOE 26.6% 115-120
PP 19% 80-85
VOX 15% 50-55
UP 12.8% 34-38
Cs 8.2% 13-17
ERC 3.6% 14-15
MP 2.8% 2-4
JxCAT1.5% 6-7
CUP 1.5% 4-5
Others 9% 14-17

https://sondeos.elperiodic.ad/sondeo-elecciones-generales-noviembre-2019-primera-entrega.html


What government could possibly be formed under that result?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on November 06, 2019, 11:38:48 AM
GESOP for El Periòdic D'Andorra

PSOE 26.6% 115-120
PP 19% 80-85
VOX 15% 50-55
UP 12.8% 34-38
Cs 8.2% 13-17
ERC 3.6% 14-15
MP 2.8% 2-4
JxCAT1.5% 6-7
CUP 1.5% 4-5
Others 9% 14-17

https://sondeos.elperiodic.ad/sondeo-elecciones-generales-noviembre-2019-primera-entrega.html


What government could possibly be formed under that result?

If PSOE and Podemos can sort out their differences this time, the could probably get someone to abstain and allow them to form a coalition or a confidence and supply govt. Nobody's going to be abstaining for a govt with VOX, so the PP+VOX+C's (if C's is still around...) needs to be north of 170 to have a real shot at power.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 06, 2019, 05:24:51 PM
I think there's no chance for a coalition or agreement between PSOE and UP. Given that a rightwing majority is unlikely and there are no other alternatives except more elections, I guess Sánchez will try to reach a deal with the PP that allows him to govern alone. It won't be for free and it will entail a turn to the right. Apparently, Grand Coalition i not on the table for now


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Kingpoleon on November 06, 2019, 06:57:19 PM
I just saw this image:
()

Do Spanish politicians not get mocked for using props like most would?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 06, 2019, 10:13:05 PM
I just saw this image:
()

Do Spanish politicians not get mocked for using props like most would?

Rivera and his cobble stone -allegedly from the riots in the streets of Barcelona- are the most popular debate meme. In my opinion he deserves to be mocked, as the man seems to me unbearable and overacted.

On the other hand, the violence seen in Barcelona during the recent protests was serious. Incidents were provoked by radical pro-independence groups, with the support of some 'professional' rioters coming from abroad and the rest of Spain. The main protests were peaceful, but the vandalism of some minority groups was impressive. It's a shame that premier Torra and other separatists fail to condemn this violence, while criticize the occasional abuses of their  regional police (they should condemn or criticize both, in any case). However, the response pf the central government was proportionate and the collaboration between national and regional polices was satisfactory. Despite this, the Spanish Right took advantage of the incidents to demand exceptional measures: Casado wants to implement the national security law and put regional police under the control of the central government; Rivera wants to implement article 155 and direct rule over Catalonia; Abascal goes further and demands the state of emergency in Catalonia, the abolition of regional autonomy, illegalize separatist parties and the imprisonment of premier Joaquim Torra. Thankfully Pedro Sánchez resisted the presure from the rightwing opposition and some Madrid circles. The climate is insane and I'm pessimistic about the outcome of this election.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 07, 2019, 05:37:55 AM
I just saw this image:
()

Do Spanish politicians not get mocked for using props like most would?

I've seen some hilarious memes out of this image.

I personally found it bizarre when it happened.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: El Betico on November 07, 2019, 05:22:35 PM
I'm going to vote Errejon. Tactical move.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 07, 2019, 05:34:40 PM
I'm going to vote Errejon. Tactical move.

Unless you live in Madrid, Valencia, Barcelona or Alicante it is likely to be a wasted vote tbh. Especially in places like Las Palmas or Vizcaya.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 08, 2019, 06:15:38 AM
I'm going to vote Errejon. Tactical move.

Unless you live in Madrid, Valencia, Barcelona or Alicante it is likely to be a wasted vote tbh. Especially in places like Las Palmas or Vizcaya.

I voted UP in April for tactical reasons. It worked well for me, because UP retained the second seat in Las Palmas. It's highly unlikely it will happen again: the seat will go for that vapid careerist Pedro Quevedo. I have decided to waste my ballot and vote for Más País, despite I'm dissapointed with the leader and his núcleo irradiador


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 08, 2019, 07:08:53 AM
Interesting debate last night between the sopkeswomen of the main parties. Participants were:

-María Jesús Montero, Finance miister and PSOE candidate for Sevilla

 -Ana Pastor, former Congress Speaker and PP candidate for Madrid (second in the list behind Pablo Casado)

-Inés Arrimadas: Cs spokeswoman in Congress and former leader of the opposition in Catalonia

-Irebe ontero: UP spokeswoman in Congress, second in madrid behind her partner Pablo Iglesias

-Rocío Monasterio: Vox spokeswoman in the Madrid Regional Assembly, wife of the Congress sopkesman Iván Espinosa de los Monteros.

In my opinion this debate was much more interesting than the leders' debate held on Monday. tThe discussion was more focused on issues (there is life beyond the conflict in catalonia) and the confrontation was less bitter. No clear winners or losers: all of them scored their points. These women proved to be superior to their party leaders, particularly in the case of Inés Arrimadas. The arguments of the Vox representative (Monasterio has awful views, but is clearly smarter than Abascal) were challenged and María Jes´ús Montero asked her to apologize for criminalizing unaccompanied migrant children (why the vile demagoguery of Abascal was not callenged on Monday?). Ana Pastor represents a more institutional and moderate PP (Rajoy loyal), as a representative of the Galician branch she defended the advantages of our decentralized "state of autonomies" against Monasterio. Irene Montero was solid.

Vox and Catalonia domiante the end of campaign. Fear

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/11/08/inenglish/1573201182_483408.html

Quote

As Spanish politicians enter the home stretch of the election campaign, candidates have dropped topics like the economy or technology, and are instead focusing on Catalonia and Vox, the far-right party that is soaring in voting intention.

The right-of-center Popular Party (PP) and Ciudadanos (Citizens) on Thursday supported a proposal made by Vox in the Madrid regional assembly to “immediately outlaw” any separatist parties “that attack the unity of the nation.”

The initiative was merely symbolic, but it illustrated how the PP and Ciudadanos are scrambling to attract undecided voters by embracing far-right proposals in a way that would have been unthinkable until very recently.
Academics take a stand against Vox

More than 1,600 professors and researchers have signed a statement denouncing the “manipulation of figures” by Vox leader Santiago Abascal at the televised election debate on Monday night.

The document accuses Santiago Abascal of trying to establish false “cause-and-effect relationships between irregular immigration and urban crime, the foreign population and gang rape, the cost of regional management to the state” by misrepresenting statistics and the results of sociological reports.

“Covering up an ideological agenda of extreme nationalism based on intolerance, racism and xenophobia with supposedly objective data, not only discredits and distorts the work of thousands of social researchers, it hurts the foundations of social harmony,” it adds.

Meanwhile the Socialist Party (PSOE), which has been heading a caretaker administration since the inconclusive election of April 28, has also taken a harder line on Catalan separatism during this campaign, but it does not seem to have had the desired effects. Surveys show that Pedro Sánchez’s party could even lose seats, although it is still expected to be the winner on Sunday with around 121 representatives in the 350-strong lower house. Government sources said they are hoping to attract last-minute “cautious” voters who feel the Socialists have the best chance of forming a majority.

What has really caught PSOE and PP leaders off guard is the fact that the economy, which proved decisive in earlier elections, has barely been mentioned at this week’s televised debates. On Thursday, top officials from Spain’s five main parties held a discussion on Spanish free-to-air television channel La Sexta that went much deeper into the issues than the candidates’ debate on Monday, but did not produce any solutions to the prolonged political stalemate in Spain, which is about to hold its fourth national election in four years.

Analysts have noted that at the Monday debate, neither Pedro Sánchez of the PSOE, Pablo Casado of the PP, Albert Rivera of Ciudadanos, or Pablo Iglesias of the anti-austerity Unidas Podemos made significant efforts to refute the often unfounded claims made by Santiago Abascal of Vox, who appears to have gained the most from his presence at the televised event.

This much seemed evident on Thursday, when Casado and Abascal both held rallies in the eastern region of Valencia. The president of the PP, one of the two parties that have traditionally dominated Spanish politics since the end of Franco’s dictatorship in the late 1970s, managed to attract around 1,200 people, according to event organizers. Abascal, whose party first entered the Spanish Congress in April of this year, drew over 6,000 followers. And surveys show that Vox could outperform the PP on Sunday in several provinces, particularly those along the Mediterranean (...)


Monasterio thamked PP and Cs in last night debate for supporting her initiative in the Madrid Regional Assembly.

-


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 08, 2019, 07:42:31 AM
The GESOP tracking for El Periòdic d'Andorra is terrible news for Albert Rivera

() (https://ibb.co/wBTQj7n)

() (https://imgbb.com/)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 08, 2019, 07:45:35 AM
Casado is in town right now. I couldn't get a pic of him, because there is far more ruckus in comparison with Sanchez's rally. Then again, the city centre is far friendlier to the PP than it is with the PSOE. There's also the fact that Casado is from here.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 08, 2019, 07:49:29 AM
Amazing how much the VOX have surged.  I guess the Catalonia and Franco exhumation issue really played into their strength 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on November 08, 2019, 10:18:37 AM
so unless we see a grand coalition, the country is effectively ungovernable?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on November 08, 2019, 10:49:13 AM
Amazing how much the VOX have surged.  I guess the Catalonia and Franco exhumation issue really played into their strength  

More the fact the C's failed to commit to any side, and their triangulation was laid bare for all to see. So the Castilian nationalist vote, which was previous a lock for the oranges, is now in Vox's camp. The only difference for these voter groups between the two parties is really that Vox says the quiet part load - go back a few pages and you will see the voter demographics between the two parties are more then correlated.

In fact here's a  little spoiler from my twitter: excusing the C's home base of Catalonia and the far south where  the comparatively minor tenant of Anti-Arab politics play well, the votes are near enough to a perfect correlation. Especially in populated Madrid.

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 08, 2019, 10:54:02 AM
so unless we see a grand coalition, the country is effectively ungovernable?

Sánchez admitted yesterday to a journalist in a TV interview that Spain is in a labyrinth. The PSOE campaign is making a last effort to mobilize the people against Vox, while UP is trying to a appeal socialist voters disappointed with the rightward turn of Sánchez. I am afraid the trick won't work twice. Meanwhile there is great concern in PP and Cs: the Vox rise halts the progression of Casado, while Rivera is in panic. My opinion is that all our leaders are incompetent and should resign immediately (and spin doctor Iván Redondo should go to the stake). The only viable option is a Grand Coalition or a similar garbage under the disguise of a 'Constitutional Pact'.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 08, 2019, 03:30:34 PM
Amazing how much the VOX have surged.  I guess the Catalonia and Franco exhumation issue really played into their strength 

More the fact the C's failed to commit to any side, and their triangulation was laid bare for all to see. So the Castilian nationalist vote, which was previous a lock for the oranges, is now in Vox's camp. The only difference for these voter groups between the two parties is really that Vox says the quiet part load - go back a few pages and you will see the voter demographics between the two parties are more then correlated.

In fact here's a  little spoiler from my twitter: excusing the C's home base of Catalonia and the far south where  the comparatively minor tenant of Anti-Arab politics play well, the votes are near enough to a perfect correlation. Especially in populated Madrid.

()

Can you explain a little bit what's happening in this map? I don't really get it.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on November 08, 2019, 04:21:18 PM
Amazing how much the VOX have surged.  I guess the Catalonia and Franco exhumation issue really played into their strength  

More the fact the C's failed to commit to any side, and their triangulation was laid bare for all to see. So the Castilian nationalist vote, which was previous a lock for the oranges, is now in Vox's camp. The only difference for these voter groups between the two parties is really that Vox says the quiet part load - go back a few pages and you will see the voter demographics between the two parties are more then correlated.

In fact here's a  little spoiler from my twitter: excusing the C's home base of Catalonia and the far south where  the comparatively minor tenant of Anti-Arab politics play well, the votes are near enough to a perfect correlation. Especially in populated Madrid.

()

Can you explain a little bit what's happening in this map? I don't really get it.

Sure. If Vox and C's votes were perfectly correlated last election, for every C's vote in a province there would be 0.65 Vox votes. In the majority of the nation, there is very little  deviation from this correlation, especially in Madrid where they both won a bunch of votes. Only in the C's heartland of Catalonia, the South Coast/Enclaves where anti-arab politics is an actual thing, and strangely inner Castile-La Mancha, were there significant deviations. The expected perfect correlation holds true because the wealthy middle-aged male who holds centralist views was the base of both parties.

I made this map because there's going to be a lot of takes in a few days on "the next casualty of the  populist surge" when in reality reactionary than populist. These Castilian Nationalist/Centralist voters have always been there, it just took their old vehicle of C's collapsing on all sides for them to migrate to a party that said the quiet part loud.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 08, 2019, 05:48:14 PM
The correlation map is interesting, but I'm not sure about the interpretation. It's remarkable the Vox strength in Castilla-La Mancha, alongside the Murcia and Almería strongholds. I don't know why the correlation for Vox is stronger in this region with regard to Castilla y León. The Cs base of support is not only the Spanish nationalist vote in central Spain. There are Cs voters that with a young or middle age, urban and professional profile. Probably people with centralist leanings, but also more pro-Europe or 'social liberal' to some degree. The PSOE has been trying to appeal some of these Cs voters, turning to the centre and with a firmer stance towards separatism. Polls suggest such efforts are not being succesful. The Cs centrist base is the most volatile among the Spanish parties and is prone to abstention


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 09, 2019, 01:41:06 AM
Interesting explanation, thank you.

Also I suppose there is a chance VOX gets a deputy in my province (Palencia) if they overperform. Though El País doesn't seem to think so: https://elpais.com/especiales/2019/elecciones-generales/escanos-provincias/


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 09, 2019, 08:56:28 AM
Even though it is serious matter and should not happen, I would laugh my ass off a bit if VOX gets more than 16.2% tomorrow ...

Because a couple years ago some from the extreme left were pretty happy that Spain had no far-right party and tomorrow they could get a result which is higher than the FPÖ's in the last election.

:P

That's stupid. You don't need to be from the extreme left to be happy about the lack of a far right party in Spain.  I think the pollster that is predicting that Vox will get 15% overestimated the Fraancoist party the last time around. I hope Vox is being overestimated again, but I'm not feeling optimistic. Vox will get an extraordinary result thanks to the riots in the streets of Barcelona. I know that you don't love immigrants and the Vox people is like you in that regard, so it's normal that you are happy about the end of the "Spanish exception"


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Tender Branson on November 09, 2019, 09:00:35 AM
Even though it is serious matter and should not happen, I would laugh my ass off a bit if VOX gets more than 16.2% tomorrow ...

Because a couple years ago some from the extreme left were pretty happy that Spain had no far-right party and tomorrow they could get a result which is higher than the FPÖ's in the last election.

:P

That's stupid. You don't need to be from the extreme left to be happy about the lack of a far right party in Spain.  I think the pollster that is predicting that Vox will get 15% overestimated the Fraancoist party the last time around. I hope Vox is being overestimated again, but I'm not feeling optimistic. Vox will get an extraordinary result thanks to the riots in the streets of Barcelona. I know that you don't love immigrants and the Vox people is like you in that regard, so it's normal that you are happy about the end of the "Spanish exception"

I think you lack reading comprehension. I posted the exact opposite above.

Quote
"Even though it is serious matter and should not happen ..."


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 09, 2019, 09:40:53 AM
Even though it is serious matter and should not happen, I would laugh my ass off a bit if VOX gets more than 16.2% tomorrow ...

Because a couple years ago some from the extreme left were pretty happy that Spain had no far-right party and tomorrow they could get a result which is higher than the FPÖ's in the last election.

:P

That's stupid. You don't need to be from the extreme left to be happy about the lack of a far right party in Spain.  I think the pollster that is predicting that Vox will get 15% overestimated the Fraancoist party the last time around. I hope Vox is being overestimated again, but I'm not feeling optimistic. Vox will get an extraordinary result thanks to the riots in the streets of Barcelona. I know that you don't love immigrants and the Vox people is like you in that regard, so it's normal that you are happy about the end of the "Spanish exception"

I think you lack reading comprehension. I posted the exact opposite above.

Quote
"Even though it is serious matter and should not happen ..."

We know who you are, Tender. It's not the first time that you state your views on the matter


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Tender Branson on November 09, 2019, 09:47:28 AM
Even though it is serious matter and should not happen, I would laugh my ass off a bit if VOX gets more than 16.2% tomorrow ...

Because a couple years ago some from the extreme left were pretty happy that Spain had no far-right party and tomorrow they could get a result which is higher than the FPÖ's in the last election.

:P

That's stupid. You don't need to be from the extreme left to be happy about the lack of a far right party in Spain.  I think the pollster that is predicting that Vox will get 15% overestimated the Fraancoist party the last time around. I hope Vox is being overestimated again, but I'm not feeling optimistic. Vox will get an extraordinary result thanks to the riots in the streets of Barcelona. I know that you don't love immigrants and the Vox people is like you in that regard, so it's normal that you are happy about the end of the "Spanish exception"

I think you lack reading comprehension. I posted the exact opposite above.

Quote
"Even though it is serious matter and should not happen ..."

We know who you are, Tender. It's not the first time that you state your views on the matter

Yeah, exactly.

Everyone knows that I have a tough position on immigration and integration.

But I have never voted for a far-right party, nor do I want them to get good election results.

In fact, if more people were like me the centrist parties would not decline and rise instead and not the far-right ...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 09, 2019, 10:43:53 AM

Yeah, exactly.

Everyone knows that I have a tough position on immigration and integration.

But I have never voted for a far-right party, nor do I want them to get good election results.

In fact, if more people were like me the centrist parties would not decline and rise instead and not the far-right ...

I know. You say that you don't vote for the FPO (I have no reason for distrust and anyway that's your business), but your "tough position" on immigration is not far from parties like Vox. What I say is that you have stated in the past a certain joy for the end of the "Spanish exception", as well you deem "far left" people with humanitarian feelings. There is people in the centre and the right that don't hate immigrants: see Angela Merkel. I suspect you would be a good fit for the Albert Rivera fanclub, although I'd challenge the notion that Cs and its Catalan leader are "centrist". In any case, we know your views already


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Tender Branson on November 09, 2019, 11:39:39 AM
Yeah, exactly.

Everyone knows that I have a tough position on immigration and integration.

But I have never voted for a far-right party, nor do I want them to get good election results.

In fact, if more people were like me the centrist parties would not decline and rise instead and not the far-right ...

I know. You say that you don't vote for the FPO (I have no reason for distrust and anyway that's your business), but your "tough position" on immigration is not far from parties like Vox. What I say is that you have stated in the past a certain joy for the end of the "Spanish exception", as well you deem "far left" people with humanitarian feelings. There is people in the centre and the right that don't hate immigrants: see Angela Merkel. I suspect you would be a good fit for the Albert Rivera fanclub, although I'd challenge the notion that Cs and its Catalan leader are "centrist". In any case, we know your views already

I have to clarify a few things:

* I have not stated a "certain joy for the end of the Spanish exception", I just said it's going to happen sooner or later that the far-right will also rise by quite a bit there.

* I do not hate immigrants. I have posted several times that I want strict rules enforced, because immigrants have more duties than rights when coming to a country and need to live according to these rules, not commit crimes, or be deported. That has nothing to do with hate. That's what someone would describe as common sense (except for many on the Left). In fact, I favour limited immigration from culture-similar regions of the world.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 09, 2019, 12:28:49 PM
Speaking of "the Spanish exception", the fact that the far right has now crossed the Pyrinees into Spain (and Portugal, even if they only have 1 MP there) means that Spain is no longer the largest EU country with no far right parties in parliament.

That great honor of no far right representation now apparently belongs to Romania of all countries. Romania also has no far left parties, so I guess they have the healthiest politics in Europe? :P

Below Romania though, the list of countries by population drops fast. The country with no far right parties is Ireland (Aontu seems to be just a single issue anti abortion party and not a proper far right one; plus technically no elected MPs). Ireland being already the 19th out of 27 EU countries by population! (and Romania the 6th).

The full list seems to be this:

Romania
Ireland
Croatia
Malta

So only 4 countries left. :(


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on November 09, 2019, 12:38:15 PM
well, Croatia has its far-rightists in its supposedly "centre-right" party, which has a problem with Utase defenders, and even Ireland had a pretty good result last Presidential election for an anti-traveller agitator.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: urutzizu on November 09, 2019, 12:48:00 PM
And in Romania the "Social Democratic" Party certainly shares more ideologically with Fidesz then with Pedro Sanchez.

Really though, I dont think that Far-right Influence in Parliament is really something new in Spain. What is now VOX was before just the less savoury parts of PP. The Party was quite literally founded by the Censorship Minister of Franco. It just mixed with some of the moderate right and wrapped up its reactionary tendencies in the Christian Democratic Label.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 09, 2019, 12:57:24 PM
* I have not stated a "certain joy for the end of the Spanish exception", I just said it's going to happen sooner or later that the far-right will also rise by quite a bit there.

The problem with you is that obsession with immigrants and your ignorance of the particular Spanish context. The primary reason for the Vox rise is the crisis in Catalonia. Immigration is an issue in certain parts of Spain (Murcia and Almeria, among others), as well the disintegration of the main party of the Spanish Right due to corruption and other factors. However,  the factor that fuelled the surge of a reactionary form of Spanish nationalism is the Catalan conflict. Particularly its aggravation with the events in Autumn 2017 and their late repercussions. That kind of Spanish nationalism was always there, but it was contained in the radical faction of a mainstream party called PP. The excesses of Catalan separatism have waken up that monster and the spectre of Franco lives again with us.

 But you ignore everything about the politics or the history of our country and come again and again with your single issue...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 09, 2019, 01:24:53 PM
And in Portugal, some parties are making the same mistake other have made towards far-right parties: ignoring them and forbidding political initiatives in Parliament. CDS colapse and the PSD divisions aren't helping either, and Chega, in one pol,l is almost at 3%. We'll see how this unfolds, but the picture isn't good. Hope I'm wrong.

Unless there's some kind of huge swing for either the PSOE or PP, the deadlock will continue. Low turnout, if it happens could help the right and hurt the left, but, it would still be hopeless as the right wouldn't achieve a majority. The same for the left. ERC in Catalonia seems to be at odds with Puigdemont' party and allies, as, at least that's what I see, they seem to be creating a more moderate tone towards the Catalonia issue. If ERC sweeps Catalonia and Junts colapses, could ERC extend their hand to Sanchéz by proposing a more moderate position towards Catalonia? Or will PSOE more moderate wings block it?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 09, 2019, 02:55:19 PM
Unless there's some kind of huge swing for either the PSOE or PP, the deadlock will continue. Low turnout, if it happens could help the right and hurt the left, but, it would still be hopeless as the right wouldn't achieve a majority. The same for the left. ERC in Catalonia seems to be at odds with Puigdemont' party and allies, as, at least that's what I see, they seem to be creating a more moderate tone towards the Catalonia issue. If ERC sweeps Catalonia and Junts colapses, could ERC extend their hand to Sanchéz by proposing a more moderate position towards Catalonia? Or will PSOE more moderate wings block it?

ERC is adopting a more pragmatic stance on paper, but don't forget that the Republican Left voted against the budget draft negotiated between PSOE and UP. Deals between ERC and the Spanish Left were very difficult in previous months, due to the obvious differences on the national question and the pressure from within the independence movement (Catalan nationalist leaders are always afraid of being called traitors by their radicals).  Now the situation is worse with the ruling of the Supreme Court. ERC leader Oriol Junqueras has been sentenced to 13 years in prison. How do you expect that ERC is committing to break yhe deadlock, given that terrible circumstance?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 09, 2019, 03:40:59 PM
So, uh, you guys have any predictions?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: P. Clodius Pulcher did nothing wrong on November 09, 2019, 09:53:12 PM
()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Babeuf on November 09, 2019, 10:07:33 PM
This didn't need to happen. Sanchez's arrogance will be (mostly) to blame if the right comes to power.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 10, 2019, 05:27:20 AM
So, uh, you guys have any predictions?

I don't want to make predictions. All the possible scenarios point to a fragmented parliament .There is a need for dialogue and big State Agreements, but the parties are mired in their petty disputes and their leaders are short-sighted. The far right is on the rise, fuelled by the fires in the streets of Barcelona.  I fear the ghost of Franco, so I'll go to vote against that menace and against the ones who brought us this unnecessary election in fatal coincidence with the ruling of the Supreme Court. This means that I'll vote tactically for UP, which has a seat at stake in my province with Vox, Cs and the corrupt CC. I would have preferred MP, but anyway


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 10, 2019, 05:34:45 AM
On a sidenote, because absentee voting from abroad sucks in Spain I have been de-facto disenfranchised, so I am not voting in this election.

I guess I have a reason to support a third election now :P


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 10, 2019, 05:46:58 AM
On a sidenote, because absentee voting from abroad sucks in Spain I have been de-facto disenfranchised, so I am not voting in this election.

I guess I have a reason to support a third election now :P

Wow that absolutely sucks. Why is that? I read something about the issue yesterday but it didn't explain it well.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 10, 2019, 05:52:25 AM
On a sidenote, because absentee voting from abroad sucks in Spain I have been de-facto disenfranchised, so I am not voting in this election.

I guess I have a reason to support a third election now :P

Wow that absolutely sucks. Why is that? I read something about the issue yesterday but it didn't explain it well.

Basically, I applied to vote from abroad by mail as a temporary resident abroad (ERTA vote; which is not the same as the CERA vote for permanent residents) but my ballots never arrived. Honestly I wish I could have just gone to my nearest embassy/consulate and vote there in person but that is apparently not allowed.

This article by El Pais explains the situation quite well in my opinion. Turnout among Spaniards abroad permanently was a whopping 5.6% last time.

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/11/09/actualidad/1573326362_103978.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 10, 2019, 06:06:26 AM
On a sidenote, because absentee voting from abroad sucks in Spain I have been de-facto disenfranchised, so I am not voting in this election.

I guess I have a reason to support a third election now :P

Wow that absolutely sucks. Why is that? I read something about the issue yesterday but it didn't explain it well.

Basically, I applied to vote from abroad by mail as a temporary resident abroad (ERTA vote; which is not the same as the CERA vote for permanent residents) but my ballots never arrived. Honestly I wish I could have just gone to my nearest embassy/consulate and vote there in person but that is apparently not allowed.

This article by El Pais explains the situation quite well in my opinion. Turnout among Spaniards abroad permanently was a whopping 5.6% last time.

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/11/09/actualidad/1573326362_103978.html

Thanks, I was also reading about it in another article.

At first glance, the system looks draconian to me.

It's a bit similar for Venezuelan migrants, though the main reason it's difficult to vote is because expats have to reside legally in the country they currently live in, plus register in the embassies/consulates which can be a hassle since they're manned by people who reaaally don't want people abroad to vote. though my country doesn't have competitive elections anymore so who care


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on November 10, 2019, 06:30:17 AM
So, uh, you guys have any predictions?

A fifth election. Because porque no?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: skbl17 on November 10, 2019, 07:04:56 AM
Here are the official results pages from the Ministry of the Interior. Obviously there's nothing yet as polls are still open, but we should get the first indication of turnout soon (at 14:00 CET).

Congress of Deputies (https://resultados.10noviembre2019.es/Congreso/Total-nacional/0/es)
Senate (https://resultados.10noviembre2019.es/Senado/Total-nacional/0/es)

Turnout figures (https://resultados.10noviembre2019.es/Avances/Total-nacional/0/es)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 10, 2019, 08:02:30 AM
Unless there's some kind of huge swing for either the PSOE or PP, the deadlock will continue. Low turnout, if it happens could help the right and hurt the left, but, it would still be hopeless as the right wouldn't achieve a majority. The same for the left. ERC in Catalonia seems to be at odds with Puigdemont' party and allies, as, at least that's what I see, they seem to be creating a more moderate tone towards the Catalonia issue. If ERC sweeps Catalonia and Junts colapses, could ERC extend their hand to Sanchéz by proposing a more moderate position towards Catalonia? Or will PSOE more moderate wings block it?
ERC is adopting a more pragmatic stance on paper, but don't forget that the Republican Left voted against the budget draft negotiated between PSOE and UP. Deals between ERC and the Spanish Left were very difficult in previous months, due to the obvious differences on the national question and the pressure from within the independence movement (Catalan nationalist leaders are always afraid of being called traitors by their radicals).  Now the situation is worse with the ruling of the Supreme Court. ERC leader Oriol Junqueras has been sentenced to 13 years in prison. How do you expect that ERC is committing to break yhe deadlock, given that terrible circumstance?

My idea was that the divide in the independence movement, between Torra/Puigdemont and ERC, would make ERC as the party that doesn't promote violence and hate in Catalan and Spanish societies. Maybe this is just wishful thinking, and of course the ruling didn't helped ease any tensions, not to mention Sanchéz "let it burn because they will get tired" strategy backfired completely. But, you're right, the conditions for a deal are really bleak, with no side caving in. I can also say that the feeling of annoyance is the same across the border, here in Portugal we just cannot stand any more Spanish instability news, and I can image the same feeling in Spain. Let's see how this unfolds.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 10, 2019, 08:12:58 AM
Turnout figures at 14:00h:

Nov 2019 - 37.9% (-3.6)
Apr 2019 - 41.5%
2016 - 36.9%
2015 - 37.0%
2011 - 37.9%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on November 10, 2019, 08:22:18 AM
Turnout figures at 14:00h:

Nov 2019 - 37.9% (-3.6)
Apr 2019 - 41.5%
2016 - 36.9%
2015 - 37.0%
2011 - 37.9%

Could be a lot worse, honestly. Probably a sign that nothing too groundbreaking will happen. The right would want turnout in the low 30s to pull off a shocker, I would imagine.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 08:25:15 AM
When does polls close? 8PM Madrid time ?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 10, 2019, 08:26:38 AM
Turnout figures at 14:00h:

Nov 2019 - 37.9% (-3.6)
Apr 2019 - 41.5%
2016 - 36.9%
2015 - 37.0%
2011 - 37.9%

Could be a lot worse, honestly. Probably a sign that nothing too groundbreaking will happen. The right would want turnout in the low 30s to pull off a shocker, I would imagine.
We'll have to wait until 18:00h to know the real trend. In 2016, by that time only 51% had cast a ballot and that election ended up being quite good for the right.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 10, 2019, 08:27:39 AM
When does polls close? 8PM Madrid time ?

Yep. 8PM Madrid Time, 7PM London/Lisbon time.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on November 10, 2019, 08:34:33 AM
Turnout figures at 14:00h:

Nov 2019 - 37.9% (-3.6)
Apr 2019 - 41.5%
2016 - 36.9%
2015 - 37.0%
2011 - 37.9%

Could be a lot worse, honestly. Probably a sign that nothing too groundbreaking will happen. The right would want turnout in the low 30s to pull off a shocker, I would imagine.
We'll have to wait until 18:00h to know the real trend. In 2016, by that time only 51% had cast a ballot and that election ended up being quite good for the right.
Do you have the 6pm numbers for the last four elections?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 10, 2019, 09:01:54 AM
Turnout figures at 14:00h:

Nov 2019 - 37.9% (-3.6)
Apr 2019 - 41.5%
2016 - 36.9%
2015 - 37.0%
2011 - 37.9%

Could be a lot worse, honestly. Probably a sign that nothing too groundbreaking will happen. The right would want turnout in the low 30s to pull off a shocker, I would imagine.
We'll have to wait until 18:00h to know the real trend. In 2016, by that time only 51% had cast a ballot and that election ended up being quite good for the right.
Do you have the 6pm numbers for the last four elections!

Apr 2019 - 60.7%
2016 - 51.2%
2015 - 58.4%
2011 - 57.7%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 10, 2019, 09:02:04 AM
When does polls close? 8PM Madrid time ?

Yep. 8PM Madrid Time, 7PM London/Lisbon time.

Worth noting polls close at 9PM Madrid time in the Canary Islands (8PM local time), so early counts will only have 335/350 MPs


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: P. Clodius Pulcher did nothing wrong on November 10, 2019, 09:08:50 AM
All this because Iglesias was greedy and Iñigo couldn't wait just five more minutes to start a new party. Smh


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on November 10, 2019, 09:15:06 AM
So I'm not going to make a prediction but I will engage in a bit of metagaming here. Lets say PSOE+Podemos+MP and PP+VOX+C's are both around 150, but the  left is a bit higher. This is what polls say right now, and unless there is a massive swing we will end up both near parity - just like back in 2015/16. There are problems with both of these govts, and their ability to reach the 176 threshold is tenuous. The right needs to probably hit 170ish combined to make such a govt work because VOX is a poison pill. The left would need to recruit some Catalan support which probably makes it also impossible, and that's ignoring the vendettas between Iglesias and Sanchez.

So now we are left with cross-block govts, and PSOE should get the most seats overall so they will get the nod. Both options are PSOE minority govts with abstention: PSOE+Podemos+C's, and PSOE+PP. The latter would be solely to put to rest the govt crisis, even though it opens a bigger door for Vox. the former would only work if C's is committed to their Macronist triangulation...which is possible since the Centralist/Castilian Nats self-jettisoned for Vox. C's is dying and maybe such a move allows then to survive and carve out a centrist niche...but C's agreeing to support the same Govt as Podemos is presently unthinkable, so PSOE+PP is therefore the most likely. That's where it stands right now, and it's all very sad because PSOE traded in it's beautiful results from April for this indecision purely because of egos.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on November 10, 2019, 12:04:14 PM
Turnout at 6pm at 56.79%. A five point drop from April. Not bad, frankly, given the voter apathy that could be expected.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 10, 2019, 12:13:59 PM
That doesn't sound half bad actually, but what do I know.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on November 10, 2019, 12:46:12 PM
The localized 6pm turnout reports paint a pretty murky picture.

Catalonia: 59.8% (down 4.4%)
Barcelona: 60.4% (down 4.4%)
Extremadura: 54.4% (down 5.9%)
Andalucia: 54.9% (down 2.3%)
Seville: 57.6% (down 1.5%)
Granada 55.3% (down 3.8%)
Castilla La Mancha: 57.5% (down 4.9%)
Valencia Community: 60% (down 1.6%)
Valencia: 61.3% (down 0.3%)
Murcia region: 57.9% (down 3.9%)
Castilla y Leon: 56.7% (down 5.2%)
Melilla: 39% (down 5.4%)
Alcocorn (PSOE suburb of Madrid): 63.9% (down 2.9%)
Torrejon de Ardoz (PP suburb of Madrid): 60.9% (down 4%)
Salamanca (PP stronghold of Madrid): 63% (down 2.8%)
Fuenlabrada (PSOE Madrid suburb): 61.3% (down 4%)

Catalonia is perhaps a surprise, and a problem for the left.  But a lot of right wing strongholds are simply not showing up at the same rates at left wing strongholds (except for Extremadura, I guess).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 12:49:14 PM
Turnout at 6pm at 56.79%. A five point drop from April. Not bad, frankly, given the voter apathy that could be expected.

Too bad.  Was hoping for a lower turnout to lead to a Right wing surge.  It seems we will get stalemate again. 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 10, 2019, 12:51:11 PM


Only Álava (Basque Country) and Jaén (Andaluzia), have increased turnout rates compared with April.

The rest has lower turnout that ranges from 0% and -7%.

In terms of communities, 8 have turnout decreases above 5%:

Balears
Canarias
Melilla City
Extremadura
Galicia
Castilla y León
Principado de Asturias
Ceuta City

3 communities have turnout decreases below 3%:

Basque Country
Andaluzia
Valencia


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 10, 2019, 12:55:15 PM
When does polls close? 8PM Madrid time ?

Yep. 8PM Madrid Time, 7PM London/Lisbon time.

Worth noting polls close at 9PM Madrid time in the Canary Islands (8PM local time), so early counts will only have 335/350 MPs

El País and ABC are reporting that results will start to come at 9 pm. Who do I believe D:


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 10, 2019, 12:55:32 PM
Turnout at 6pm at 56.79%. A five point drop from April. Not bad, frankly, given the voter apathy that could be expected.

Too bad.  Was hoping for a lower turnout to lead to a Right wing surge.  It seems we will get stalemate again. 

Yeah, like Walmart_shopper said, some right-wing areas aren't showing up, but some left-wing areas have not very good showings also. Neither side seems very motivated.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on November 10, 2019, 12:59:11 PM


Only Álava (Basque Country) and Jaén (Andaluzia), have increased turnout rates compared with April.

The rest has lower turnout that ranges from 0% and -7%.

In terms of communities, 8 have turnout decreases above 5%:

Balears
Canarias
Melilla City
Extremadura
Galicia
Castilla y León
Principado de Asturias
Ceuta City

3 communities have turnout decreases below 3%:

Basque Country
Andaluzia
Valencia

While this doesn't quite portend a big win for the left, it appears that the idea that a fourth election would deter left wing voters from turning out has simply proven false.  There is a generalized pattern of right wing strongholds showing up at considerably lower rates versus April compared with left wing provinces.  It is also worth noting that some of the places where Vox was strongest are especially weak so far today.  Madrid's turnout is not terrible, though, but there it is hardest to figure out what's happening because there is so much fluidity between Vox, PP and, and Cs.  PP could be cannibalizing the large right wing vote in Madrid, or Vox could be surging.  It's hard to know.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 10, 2019, 12:59:49 PM
When does polls close? 8PM Madrid time ?

Yep. 8PM Madrid Time, 7PM London/Lisbon time.

Worth noting polls close at 9PM Madrid time in the Canary Islands (8PM local time), so early counts will only have 335/350 MPs

El País and ABC are reporting that results will start to come at 9 pm. Who do I believe D:

I believe exit polls, or predictions to be more exact, are allowed at 8PM but there's a blackout until the Canary Islands polls close. But I'm not sure.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 10, 2019, 01:09:55 PM
While this doesn't quite portend a big win for the left, it appears that the idea that a fourth election would deter left wing voters from turning out has simply proven false.  There is a generalized pattern of right wing strongholds showing up at considerably lower rates versus April compared with left wing provinces.  It is also worth noting that some of the places where Vox was strongest are especially weak so far today.  Madrid's turnout is not terrible, though, but there it is hardest to figure out what's happening because there is so much fluidity between Vox, PP and, and Cs.  PP could be cannibalizing the large right wing vote in Madrid, or Vox could be surging.  It's hard to know.

The turnout rate could mean a lot and, at the same time, absolutely nothing. The areas with very low turnout seem to be areas where weather today is very bad with strong winds and heavy rain. All points to a continuation of the deadlock, unfortunately.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 10, 2019, 01:24:57 PM
While this doesn't quite portend a big win for the left, it appears that the idea that a fourth election would deter left wing voters from turning out has simply proven false.  There is a generalized pattern of right wing strongholds showing up at considerably lower rates versus April compared with left wing provinces.  It is also worth noting that some of the places where Vox was strongest are especially weak so far today.  Madrid's turnout is not terrible, though, but there it is hardest to figure out what's happening because there is so much fluidity between Vox, PP and, and Cs.  PP could be cannibalizing the large right wing vote in Madrid, or Vox could be surging.  It's hard to know.

The turnout rate could mean a lot and, at the same time, absolutely nothing. The areas with very low turnout seem to be areas where weather today is very bad with strong winds and heavy rain. All points to a continuation of the deadlock, unfortunately.

A continued stalemate was predictable. I'm more interested to know if the turnout decrease in rightwing strongholds is affecting the Cs vote. I take for granted that the Vox people will show up, but I cross fingers and hope polls were overestimating the Abascal party. Turnout figures don't look as bad as they could be, given voter fatigue


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 10, 2019, 01:35:50 PM
Repost: largest bloc by province

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 10, 2019, 01:41:19 PM
When does polls close? 8PM Madrid time ?

Yep. 8PM Madrid Time, 7PM London/Lisbon time.

Worth noting polls close at 9PM Madrid time in the Canary Islands (8PM local time), so early counts will only have 335/350 MPs

El País and ABC are reporting that results will start to come at 9 pm. Who do I believe D:

I believe exit polls, or predictions to be more exact, are allowed at 8PM but there's a blackout until the Canary Islands polls close. But I'm not sure.

I believe there is no real blackout, but rather than between 8 and 9 PM barely any votes will be in. But I am also not sure


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on November 10, 2019, 01:45:35 PM

I saw the long, gray blob on the left edge of the map and was confused about which bloc was strongest.

Sorry, Portugal.  I like really do like you more.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 10, 2019, 02:01:37 PM


The deadlock continues...

In Catalonia, ERC and Junts are losing to CUP it seems.

Take these "polls" with extreme caution as they aren't election day polls, but rather trackings from the last few days.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 02:02:53 PM
Looks like Right wing bloc narrowly beats out Left wing bloc


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on November 10, 2019, 02:05:01 PM



Surreal. The fifth election in April is going to be interesting.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 10, 2019, 02:05:32 PM


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 02:05:41 PM
Exit poll smaller parties

Catalan pro-independence parties Esquerra Republicana seen having 13-14, Junts 6-7, CUP 3-4 seats
Basque nationalists PNV 6-7


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 10, 2019, 02:08:16 PM



Surreal. The fifth election in April is going to be interesting.

Yeah, this is becoming ridiculous. It was expected, but ridiculous still. Maybe the only way to settle this is to have a "jamón" (ham) eating contest, and the person who eats the most jamón wins. :D


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on November 10, 2019, 02:08:25 PM
EL  Pais

PSOE 119
PP 94
Vox 42
Podemeos 36
C's 19
ERC 15
MP 3
Other 22

158 to 155 pure left v right


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on November 10, 2019, 02:08:37 PM
Looks like Right wing bloc narrowly beats out Left wing bloc

Without 176 seats the right wing bloc isn't "beating" anyone. But you're also right, and Sanchez will now be pm over a divided government in which his bloc isn't even the largest.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 02:09:07 PM
Looks like Más País did some damage to the PSOE and UP in terms of seats.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 02:10:18 PM
EL  Pais

PSOE 119
PP 94
Vox 42
Podemeos 36
C's 19
ERC 15
MP 3
Other 22

158 to 155 pure left v right

You have to add in 2 seats to the Right for NA+


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on November 10, 2019, 02:11:40 PM
EL  Pais

PSOE 119
PP 94
Vox 42
Podemeos 36
C's 19
ERC 15
MP 3
Other 22

158 to 155 pure left v right

You have to add in 2 seats to the Right for NA+

Forgot about them. So it's essentially tied. Wonderful.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on November 10, 2019, 02:14:28 PM
Whatever the actual results end up being, the depressed turnout is a major defeat for Spanish democracy. This is what you get when politicians are would rather play dumb games to outmaneuver one another than sit down and actually try to govern together.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 02:15:23 PM

Forgot about them. So it's essentially tied. Wonderful.

As pointed out by others it really does not matter as unless the exit polls are way off we are looking at more stalemate.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Lumine on November 10, 2019, 02:15:47 PM
Sad to see Rivera and C's utterly implode, though it is understandable. One can hope the party may find a way to survive, but that (potential) result is just too harsh.

Hilarious to see Sánchez losing seats though, both because of his enormous arrogance and for gambling on a second election in the belief he'd gain seats like Rajoy in 2016.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 10, 2019, 02:17:04 PM

I saw the long, gray blob on the left edge of the map and was confused about which bloc was strongest.

Sorry, Portugal.  I like really do like you more.

I don't like those maps of Spain not showing the Portuguese land. The Iberian peninsula looks amputated in them. I think the Left was the largest bloc in the last Portuguese elections  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 10, 2019, 02:23:30 PM

I saw the long, gray blob on the left edge of the map and was confused about which bloc was strongest.

Sorry, Portugal.  I like really do like you more.

I don't like those maps of Spain not showing the Portuguese land. The Iberian peninsula looks amputated in them. I think the Left was the largest bloc in the last Portuguese elections  
In the 2015 elections, the right-wing bloc won every district in the North, bar Porto, and Leiria in the Center. In the 2019 elections, the leftwing bloc won every district bar Braganza, that matches exactly in the areas where PP+C's+VOX have the highest share in Castilla y Leon.

2019 results by bloc, from Wikipedia:
()

The almost wipe out of the rightwing bloc in the 2019 election is basically because of the colapse of CDS, as PSD did hold steady in many areas of the North/Center while CDS basically disappeared.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: windjammer on November 10, 2019, 02:24:07 PM
So basically nothing will change?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on November 10, 2019, 02:27:25 PM
Reminder that last time the first results were overwhelmed with the basque country vote. They counted far faster and were  overrepresented in the  early totals. Quite funny considering the PNV and Bildu were being projected at way too many seats before the results came down to earth.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on November 10, 2019, 02:34:34 PM
()

Madrid seat projection - Combined left loses one, combined right gains one. Vox, PP, and MP are the gainers.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 10, 2019, 02:35:28 PM
Vox could win Murcia and Ceuta city, according to the TVE poll.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on November 10, 2019, 02:38:33 PM
Vox could win Murcia and Ceuta city, according to the TVE poll.

I'm going to be shocked if Murcia and the Enclaves are not green. Murcia especially was barely PSOE last time around, and VOX wasn't that far behind PP. the C's -> Vox vote transfer is probably enough to put theme on top on its own. Question is if there is anything else  like Toledo or Almeria, where they ran good last time.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 10, 2019, 02:41:21 PM
Polling stations will close in the Canary Islands at 20:00 GMT, 20 minutes from now. We'll have actual results pretty soon


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: DL on November 10, 2019, 02:41:54 PM
Why is Murcia so rightwing?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on November 10, 2019, 02:43:06 PM

One of the few places immigration control actually moves voters.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: P. Clodius Pulcher did nothing wrong on November 10, 2019, 02:43:44 PM
The people of Spain: We are so tired of all these elections!

Also the people of Spain: *elects a parliament which is less likely to work together*


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 10, 2019, 02:50:48 PM

Maybe because it's a conservative and traditional agrarian society where the economic development has been focused on tourism and construction, as well on new types of horticulture under plastic that employ immigrant workforce. Immigrants from Africa (either from Maghrib or Sub-Saharan countries) are more disliked by the potential Vox voter than immigrants from countries like Romania.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 10, 2019, 02:55:47 PM
Toledo could be a major blow for Cs, given that the candidate there is former speaker Juan Carlos Girauta. The man was a journalist before and left Barcelona for Castile fed up with Catalan nationalism. I dislike Girauta very much, but I guess the Vox candidate could be even worse...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on November 10, 2019, 03:04:32 PM
The people of Spain: We are so tired of all these elections!

Also the people of Spain: *elects a parliament which is less likely to work together*

It's the job of politicians to make do with the parliament voters give them, not of voters to give politicians the parliament they want.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 10, 2019, 03:10:47 PM
First results in: 16.74% counted

29.15% PSOE
20.39% PP
13.14% Vox
12.24% UP
  5.31% C's
  0.70% Más Pais

In April, with a similar share of the vote counted, these were the results:
With 17.01% of the vote counted it is

PSOE   29.69%
PP       16.99%
C        13.05%
UP       11.98%
VOX      8.97%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 03:12:32 PM
First results in: 16.74% counted

29.15% PSOE
20.39% PP
13.14% Vox
12.24% UP
  5.31% C's
  0.70% Más Pais

In April, with a similar share of the vote counted, these were the results:
With 17.01% of the vote counted it is

PSOE   29.69%
PP       16.99%
C        13.05%
UP       11.98%
VOX      8.97%

I think when I posted these numbers back in April I failed to take into account the other smaller UP lists.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 10, 2019, 03:15:23 PM

I think when I posted these numbers back in April I failed to take into account the other smaller UP lists.

En Comú Podem and Galicia en Común are still shown separately in the MIR website


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 03:16:18 PM
22.73% counted

PSOE   29.21%
PP        20.38%
VOX     13.59%
UP        12.36%
C           5.58%
Mas       0.75%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: kaoras on November 10, 2019, 03:17:17 PM

I think when I posted these numbers back in April I failed to take into account the other smaller UP lists.

En Comú Podem and Galicia en Común are still shown separately in the MIR website

Yes, but in the MIR UP is at 10% so he is adding them while Jaichind was not


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 10, 2019, 03:17:27 PM

I think when I posted these numbers back in April I failed to take into account the other smaller UP lists.

En Comú Podem and Galicia en Común are still shown separately in the MIR website

For UP, I added UP-IU+En Comú+PODEMOS+EU.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: kaoras on November 10, 2019, 03:18:07 PM
22.73% counted

PSOE   29.21%
PP        20.38%
VOX     13.59%
UP        12.36%
C           5.58%
Mas       0.75%


Mas País has like 4 separate list that you would need to add but is honestly not worth it.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 03:19:15 PM
22.73% counted

PSOE   29.21%
PP        20.38%
VOX     13.59%
UP        12.36%
C           5.58%
Mas       0.75%


Mas País has like 4 separate list that you would need to add but is honestly not worth it.

Sigh


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 03:22:56 PM
30.68% counted

PSOE   29.23%
PP        20.39%
VOX     13.98%
UP        12.49%
C           5.83%
Mas       1.67% (I found 3 of the Mas lists)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: kaoras on November 10, 2019, 03:27:05 PM
30.68% counted

PSOE   29.23%
PP        20.39%
VOX     13.98%
UP        12.49%
C           5.83%
Mas       1.67% (I found 3 of the Mas lists)

Is Mas País-Equo ; Mes Compromis (I think this is the one you might be missing) ; Mas País and Mas País-Equo-CHA


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 10, 2019, 03:27:20 PM
30.68% counted

Mas       1.67% (I found 3 of the Mas lists)

Don't gey fooled with the MES-Esquerra list in the Balearic Uslands. I see two lists in El País outlet: Más País and MP-CHA-EQUO. Both arte totalling 1.8% and 3 seats

Vox taking the lead in Murcia, ahead of PSOE and PP. UP retains one seat and Cs is wiped out


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 10, 2019, 03:28:10 PM
Alternatively you can just use any Spanish news outlet, they will add the parties for you


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 10, 2019, 03:29:04 PM
Madrid and Barcelona are way behind on the vote count.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 03:29:04 PM
39.70% counted

PSOE   29.21%
PP        20.43%
VOX     14.34%
UP        12.60%
C           6.07%
Mas       1.93% (I found all 4 lists)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 10, 2019, 03:30:41 PM
Teruel Existe! is about to enter in the Congress of Deputies


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 03:37:05 PM
53.16% counted

PSOE   29.03%
PP        20.52%
VOX     14.68%
UP        12.68%
C           6.33%
Mas       2.09% (I found all 4 lists)

PSOE falling and everyone else gaining as the count continues.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 10, 2019, 03:41:02 PM
Seat count:

PSOE 124
PP 85
Vox 50
UP 35
ERC 13
Cs 10
JxCAT 8
EAJ-PNV 7
EH Bildu 5
MP 3
CC-NC 3
CUP 2
NA+ 2
BNG 1
PRC 1
Teruel Existe! 1


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 10, 2019, 03:42:04 PM
53.16% counted

PSOE   29.03%
PP        20.52%
VOX     14.68%
UP        12.68%
C           6.33%
Mas       2.09% (I found all 4 lists)

PSOE falling and everyone else gaining as the count continues.

PSOE will end up at 28% or slightly bellow that, exactly the same as the second largest party in Portugal. PP seems or course to win something between 21-22%. Vox could reach 16%. C's is also increasing but I don't think it will reach 9%. UP could reach 13%, but only just.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 03:43:56 PM
Ok.  So it seems exit polls are roughly correct.  So more stalemate.  Sure all these parties do not have infinite budgets to keep on fighting elections.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on November 10, 2019, 03:44:39 PM
Vox leading in Murcia in case anyone missed that.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 03:45:54 PM
63.66% counted

PSOE   28.80%
PP        20.63%
VOX     14.91%
UP        12.71%
C           6.50%
Mas       2.19%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: urutzizu on November 10, 2019, 03:47:09 PM
Vox leading in Murcia in case anyone missed that.

And 2nd in Andalucia.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 10, 2019, 03:49:50 PM
Right now, with the current seats, a possible pact to vote in Sanchéz as President is PSOE+UP+Más Pais+PNV+BNG+CCa+PRC+Terruel Existe: 177 seats.

Don't know if it's even feasible.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: skbl17 on November 10, 2019, 03:51:19 PM
Vox now leading in Ceuta.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 03:54:18 PM
73.81% counted

PSOE   28.59%
PP        20.70%
VOX     15.05%
UP        12.74%
C           6.62%
Mas       2.26%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 03:56:55 PM
Seatwise PP+VOX+C has pretty much stayed the same.  I do expect C to gain a bit in terms of seats.  So on paper PSOE can still pursue PSOE+UP plus support of various regional forces.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 10, 2019, 03:59:52 PM
Right now, with the current seats, a possible pact to vote in Sanchéz as President is PSOE+UP+Más Pais+PNV+BNG+CCa+PRC+Terruel Existe: 177 seats.

Don't know if it's even feasible.

CC is not compatible with Podemos or the BNG

Leaving aside that no bloc will win a majority, this result is truly depressing


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 04:00:40 PM
I think PSOE will also lose its majority in the Senate.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 04:03:28 PM
81.75% counted

PSOE   28.39%
PP        20.72%
VOX     15.10%
UP        12.77%
C           6.70%
Mas       2.32%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 10, 2019, 04:03:32 PM
Right now, with the current seats, a possible pact to vote in Sanchéz as President is PSOE+UP+Más Pais+PNV+BNG+CCa+PRC+Terruel Existe: 177 seats.

Don't know if it's even feasible.

Even assuming PSOE and UP can get their differences sorted out, not really, CCa will not support a government alongside UP. Worth noting of CC's 3 seats, 2 will belong to the centre-right CC and 1 to the centre-left NCa. So NCa might break the alliance and vote for Sánchez, but who knows.

Either way it is not the most unlikely government out there if the numbers hold, but I do expect them to come short by a couple seats in the end.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: kaoras on November 10, 2019, 04:04:57 PM
In the end, PSOE just needs more Yes than Noes, getting abstentions wouldn't be really that hard if they weren't so greedy.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 04:05:33 PM
So the only thing this election achieved is to take PSOE+C off the table as an option.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 10, 2019, 04:07:27 PM
Right now, with the current seats, a possible pact to vote in Sanchéz as President is PSOE+UP+Más Pais+PNV+BNG+CCa+PRC+Terruel Existe: 177 seats.

Don't know if it's even feasible.

Even assuming PSOE and UP can get their differences sorted out, not really, CCa will not support a government alongside UP. Worth noting of CC's 3 seats, 2 will belong to the centre-right CC and 1 to the centre-left NCa. So NCa might break the alliance and vote for Sánchez, but who knows.

Either way it is not the most unlikely government out there if the numbers hold, but I do expect them to come short by a couple seats in the end.

They are already short of it, 174 seats. But like Velasco said, and you said, it's very difficult to form a pact with all these parties. I was only looking at the results and trying to find a way out, but alas.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 10, 2019, 04:11:04 PM
81,75% counted

PSOE 28.39% 122
PP 20.72% 85
VOX 15,1% 53
UP 12.77% 35
Cs 6.7% 10
MP 2.4% 3
ERC 3.44% 13
JxCAT 2.1% 8
EAJ-PNV 1.87% 7
EH Bildu 1.35% 5
CUP 0.96% 2
NA+ 0.46% 2
CC-NC 0.16% 2
BNG 0.5% 1
PRC 0.31% 1
Teruel Existe! 0.09$ 1



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 04:15:56 PM
88.60% counted

PSOE   28.21%
PP        20.76%
VOX     15.12%
UP        12.80%
C           6.76%
Mas       2.36%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 10, 2019, 04:21:30 PM
Ciudadanos really imploded lol.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: rc18 on November 10, 2019, 04:24:21 PM

They are currently behind VOX even in Catalonia...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 10, 2019, 04:28:17 PM
PP just took a deputy out of the hands of the PSOE in Madrid.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 10, 2019, 04:30:13 PM
In the end, PSOE just needs more Yes than Noes, getting abstentions wouldn't be really that hard if they weren't so greedy.

It's true that Sánchez just needs more affirmative than negative votes to pass the investiture. It was possible this summer with a coalition government with UP, backed by the PNV, PRC and Compromís and with the ERC abstention. Now it's worse, as the climate is much more strained after the ruling of the Supreme Court and the protests in Catalonia. Now we have a very strong far right party, replacing another force allegedly centrist and liberal but with a strong nationalist trait. Do you expect that Casado and his group will abstain for free in this scenario? PP will demand an iron hand in Catalonia, which is the perfect recipe for disaster. In my opinion Pedro Sánchez and Albert Rivera, alongside Carles Puigdemont ad Quim Torra, are the main culprits for this nightmare. I'd say that Albert Rivera should resign now, but our politicians are never responsible for the disasters they create: Pablo Casado and Susana Díaz are still around. Sánchez will survive but... at what cost?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 04:31:13 PM
94.18% counted

PSOE   28.07%  120
PP        20.79%   88
VOX     15.12%   52
UP        12.81%  35
C           6.79%   10
Mas       2.40%     3


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on November 10, 2019, 04:33:41 PM
The sad thing is if you are Sanchez, this was a good election in your warped mind. You lose little seats, Podemos gets punished, and the combined right is near exactly the same as last time. Govt formation this time can only occur with cross bloc abstentions, be that PP or C's - which means Podemos  Coalition is automatically out. But these numbers are far more unstable.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Lechasseur on November 10, 2019, 04:40:30 PM
Looks like deadlock again...

At least it looks like PP has improved a bit.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 04:54:37 PM
97.89% counted (I think we are pretty much done)

PSOE   28.02%  120   (-3)
PP        20.80%   88 (+22)
VOX     15.10%   52 (+28)
UP        12.82%  35   (-7)
C           6.79%   10  (-47)
Mas       2.40%     3   (new party)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: bigic on November 10, 2019, 04:57:19 PM
In Melilla it's currently very close between PP (6822 votes) and CpM (6781). 75,57% counted.
Edit: CpM now leads.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on November 10, 2019, 04:59:55 PM
In Melilla it's currently very close between PP (6822 votes) and CpM (6781). 75,57% counted.
Edit: CpM now leads.

If last time is any indicator, PP will regain the  lead. CpM led for a lot longer that time, but PP pulled it back because of how the segregated neighborhoods were counted.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 10, 2019, 05:06:37 PM
The sad thing is if you are Sanchez, this was a good election in your warped mind. You lose little seats, Podemos gets punished, and the combined right is near exactly the same as last time. Govt formation this time can only occur with cross bloc abstentions, be that PP or C's - which means Podemos  Coalition is automatically out. But these numbers are far more unstable.

Even if Sánchez has a warped mind, this outcome is dissapointing. Sánchez and his clique decided to go for a new election thinking that a "cautious majority" would reward 140 seats to the PSOE  Sánchez will survive, but the Spanish democracy steps back.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: bigic on November 10, 2019, 05:09:30 PM
In Melilla it's currently very close between PP (6822 votes) and CpM (6781). 75,57% counted.
Edit: CpM now leads.

If last time is any indicator, PP will regain the  lead. CpM led for a lot longer that time, but PP pulled it back because of how the segregated neighborhoods were counted.

The collapse of Cs and the decline of PSOE (over 4% down) might mean that this time it may not be true...
84,31% counted, CpM 38 votes more than PP


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Lechasseur on November 10, 2019, 05:11:26 PM
In Melilla it's currently very close between PP (6822 votes) and CpM (6781). 75,57% counted.
Edit: CpM now leads.

If last time is any indicator, PP will regain the  lead. CpM led for a lot longer that time, but PP pulled it back because of how the segregated neighborhoods were counted.

The collapse of Cs and the decline of PSOE (over 4% down) might mean that this time it may not be true...
84,31% counted, CpM 38 votes more than PP

Who are CpM?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 10, 2019, 05:12:36 PM
99% of the vote is in, and it seems that (once again) the main ideological blocs are roughly tied in terms of votes.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: skbl17 on November 10, 2019, 05:13:23 PM
In Melilla it's currently very close between PP (6822 votes) and CpM (6781). 75,57% counted.
Edit: CpM now leads.

If last time is any indicator, PP will regain the  lead. CpM led for a lot longer that time, but PP pulled it back because of how the segregated neighborhoods were counted.

The collapse of Cs and the decline of PSOE (over 4% down) might mean that this time it may not be true...
84,31% counted, CpM 38 votes more than PP

Who are CpM?

Local center-left party that gets significant support from Melilla's Muslim population.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 10, 2019, 05:17:29 PM
Albert Rivera is speaking. He will call an extraordinary party convention, but he is not resigning...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: bigic on November 10, 2019, 05:17:38 PM
PP again leading in Melilla. 7933-7848


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 10, 2019, 05:22:12 PM
Inés Arrimadas is crying and the crowd cheers ¡Vamos Ciudadanos!

Albert Rivera will likeky continue as the leader of his Fanclub. Amazing


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: El Betico on November 10, 2019, 05:30:09 PM
If the CpM lead in Melilla, now at 200, holds...

...PSOE+UP+MP+PRC+BNG+Teruel+CpM+PNV+Bildu+Canarians: 176

A majority without relying on Catalans in this scenario, exists...can we imagine the Basques on the train with a Yes vote as an anti-Vox measure?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on November 10, 2019, 05:32:39 PM
If the CpM lead in Melilla, now at 200, holds...

...PSOE+UP+MP+PRC+BNG+Teruel+CpM+PNV+Bildu: 176

A majority without relying on Catalans and Canarians, in this scenario, exists...can we imagine the Basques on the train with a Yes vote as an anti-Vox measure?

This govt, well this govt with less individual actors, was also an option back in April, it was technically the govt Sanchez and Podemos were  negotiating for. But there were problems with Bildu, and of course Podemos vs PSOE was an issue.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 10, 2019, 05:33:57 PM
That Melilla result is bouncing back and forth lol.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 10, 2019, 05:36:38 PM
PP seems open in talking to PSOE, according to Casado speech.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 10, 2019, 05:39:15 PM
Now PP back in the lead...47 votes at 92,33% of the count...E-V-E-R-Y V-O-T-E C-O-U-N-T-S.

Back CpM in the lead, by 254 votes...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: El Betico on November 10, 2019, 05:50:25 PM
If the CpM lead in Melilla, now at 200, holds...

...PSOE+UP+MP+PRC+BNG+Teruel+CpM+PNV+Bildu: 176

A majority without relying on Catalans in this scenario, exists...can we imagine the Basques on the train with a Yes vote as an anti-Vox measure?

This govt, well this govt with less individual actors, was also an option back in April, it was technically the govt Sanchez and Podemos were  negotiating for. But there were problems with Bildu, and of course Podemos vs PSOE was an issue.

Yes, but I have a bit of hope based on changing circumstances...not retaining the 176 without ERC was my fear, almost a certainty...if CpM holds, I was wrong, and I will have a (for now) small sense of relief.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on November 10, 2019, 05:52:20 PM
Interestingly, CpM looks to have gotten most of their votes from C's, though you never know with such a small community. But since turnout dropped, it's hard to imagine a massive trade of new voters and previous voters. Perhaps C's voters ended up repaying CpM for the local govt?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 10, 2019, 05:53:29 PM
PSOE supporters seem not willing to let Sanchéz speak...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 10, 2019, 06:01:19 PM
I hope the Spanish left has learned not to mess with the spectres of history.

I doubt the exhumation of Franco is the main reason behind the rise of the Francoists


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: P. Clodius Pulcher did nothing wrong on November 10, 2019, 06:02:18 PM
I hope the Spanish left has learned not to mess with the spectres of history.

I doubt the exhumation of Franco is the main reason behind the rise of the Francoists

the fact that PP stayed silent on the issue show tells us that the majority of people didn't give a f*** about the exhumation when there are actual issues that matter to worry about. Catalunya is what drove the rise of the right.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 10, 2019, 06:02:58 PM
I'm watching TVE, and almost every pundit in trouncing Sanchéz speech.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: bigic on November 10, 2019, 06:04:36 PM
I hope the Spanish left has learned not to mess with the spectres of history.
lol

BTW ~1500 votes more need to be counted in Melilla. Last update was at 23:48 and CpM leads by 152 votes.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 10, 2019, 06:07:03 PM
I'm watching TVE, and almost every pundit in trouncing Sanchéz speech.

Just like in April, there were cries of "With Casado No" and "With Iglesias Yes". Sánchez almost felt angry at his own party supporters during his victory speech lmao


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: skbl17 on November 10, 2019, 06:11:32 PM
PP back in the lead in Melilla (by 50 83 votes).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 10, 2019, 06:25:24 PM
Also, eldiario has a nice map of the election results by municipality

By party: https://www.eldiario.es/politica/MAPA-resultados-municipio-10n-elecciones_0_962054215.html

By bloc: https://www.eldiario.es/politica/MAPA-izquierda-resultados-ideologicos-municipio_0_962054275.html

Honestly among the funniest results imo is Teruel Existe getting in not because of rural voters, but rather because of a huge overperformance in the provincial capital of Teruel town lol. They got a whopping 42% of the vote there.

Granted, Teruel town only has 36k people, but considering that only 3 municipalities in Teruel (out of more than 200) have a population above 5000 people, it is still a hilarious thing to watch the "rural" party overperform in urban Teruel

Another observation: The suburban areas near Madrid and Zaragoza where Cs overperformed in April seem to have "gone home" for PP, though Vox gets some really interesting overperformances in more ex-urban places near Madrid (spilling well into Toledo and Guadalajara provinces) as well as in Zaragoza.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 10, 2019, 06:28:25 PM
A little bit of fun, how the Portuguese/Spanish border voted:

Results border Portugal-Spain:

Caminha/A Guarda:

38.8% PS/PP 31.9%
31.8% PSD/PSOE 25.0%
  9.5% BE/UP 16.3%
  3.9% CDU/BNG 10.4%

Valença/Tui:

39.9% PSD/PP 31.1%
35.6% PS/PSOE 29.6%
  6.8% BE/UP 11.8%
  3.5% CDS/Vox 9.3%

Chaves/Verín

38.3% PSD/PP 37.1%
37.1% PS/PSOE 32.5%
  6.2% BE/Vox 9.3%
  4.2% CDS/BNG 8.3%

Vilar Formoso/Fuentes de Oñoro

42.0% PS/PP 41.0%
33.0% PSD/Vox 26.0%
  6.2% CDS/PSOE 24.4%
  5.8% BE/C's 6.4%

Marvão/Valencia de Alcántara

47.6% PS/PSOE 35.4%
27.9% PSD/PP 28.3%
  6.2% BE/Vox 20.2%
  3.7% CDU/UP 7.8%

Elvas/Badajoz

45.7% PS/PP 28.3%
18.7% PSD/PSOE 28.0%
  8.7% BE/Vox 22.2%
  6.4% CDS/UP 9.8%

Elvas/Olivenza

45.7% PS/PSOE 45.7%
18.7% PSD/PP 20.0%
  8.7% BE/Vox 13.9%
  6.4% CDS/UP 12.1%

Mourão/Villanueva del Fresno

43.5% PS/PSOE 40.6%
26.0% PSD/PP 26.1%
10.7% CDU/Vox 19.4%
  5.0% BE/C's 6.4%

Alcoutim/Sanlúcar de Guadiana

48.0% PS/PP 36.6%
28.0% PSD/PSOE 30.9%
  5.7% BE/Vox 23.4%
  5.4% CDU/C's 4.6%

Vila Real de Santo António/Ayamonte

40.1% PS/PSOE 34.1%
16.7% PSD/PP 21.1%
13.2% BE/Vox 20.9%
12.6% CDU/UP 12.2%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on November 10, 2019, 06:30:21 PM
PEDRO SANCHEZ, TACTICAL MASTERMIND


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 10, 2019, 06:38:08 PM
I decided to do a bit of math to search for possible coalitions and here are the 2 most likely ones (for each possible route Sánchez can take)

Option 1:

Yes: 125 (PSOE+MP+PRC+Teruel Existe)
Abstain: 102 (PP+Cs+Navarra Suma+CC)
No: 123 (Vox+UP+ERC+JxCat+PNV+Bildu+CUP+BNG)

Option 2:

Yes: 167 (PSOE+UP+PNV+MP+PRC)
Abstain: 21 (ERC+Bildu+CC+Teruel Existe+BNG)
No: 162 (PP+Vox+Cs+JxCat+CUP+Navarra Suma)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 10, 2019, 06:48:21 PM
Melilla finally finished counting, and the PP kept the seat by 0.58%.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on November 10, 2019, 06:48:36 PM
PP wins Melilla: 29.6% vs 29.0% for CpM.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: El Betico on November 10, 2019, 06:50:03 PM
PP by 179 in Melilla.

No possible majorities without relying on ERC( except for a Grand Coalition, obviously).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: urutzizu on November 10, 2019, 07:09:46 PM

I would not say that its a tactical defeat for him. For those in the PSOE establishment, Podemos was always the greater threat than VOX cannibalizing the right. Just look how Susana Díaz/Gonzales did everything in their power (as far as conspiring with PP) to keep Podemos from Power. Podemos weakened and split, while PSOE stays practically stable, is tactically not a bad result for PSOE.
Although it is sad for the Spanish Left overall of course (and its state of being reduced to bitter factionalism), and not good for Spanish Democracy.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 10, 2019, 07:17:34 PM
Some rough math points to me that (barring the regions with those quirky indepenentist/regionalist parties) the left improved the most in Madrid. The left vote in Madrid is 45.5%, up from 43.5% in April. The Right is down from 53.3 to 52.3, so it's a 3.1 swing in the left's favor. Probably due to Errejon's relatively strong showing.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 07:18:27 PM

I would not say that its a tactical defeat for him. For those in the PSOE establishment, Podemos was always the greater threat than VOX cannibalizing the right. Just look how Susana Díaz/Gonzales did everything in their power (as far as conspiring with PP) to keep Podemos from Power. Podemos weakened and split, while PSOE stays practically stable, is tactically not a bad result for PSOE.
Although it is sad for the Spanish Left overall of course (and its state of being reduced to bitter factionalism), and not good for Spanish Democracy.

But PSOE lost 3 seats even as it got UP to lose 7.  Not sure how I read that as any sort of tactical victory.

In fact I suspect UP will become more obstinate after this election since their view might be: after PSOE threw everything at us the damage is 7 seats.  Bad but not disastrous.  We for sure have to stick to our guns. 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 07:28:18 PM
99.99% counted

PSOE   28.00%  120   (-3)
PP        20.82%   88 (+22)
VOX     15.09%   52 (+28)
UP        12.84%  35   (-7)
C           6.79%   10  (-47)
Mas       2.40%     3   (+2)

If you add in NA+ and Coalició Compromís in April 2019 the seats and vote share change in the Right and Left Blocs are

                   April                    Nov
            Vote       Seat      Vote       Seat
Left     43.65%    166     43.24%    158
Right   43.22%    149     43.11%    152

Pretty much no change with virtual tie.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: urutzizu on November 10, 2019, 07:29:03 PM
In fact I suspect UP will become more obstinate after this election since their view might be: after PSOE threw everything at us the damage is 7 seats.  Bad but not disastrous.  We for sure have to stick to our guns.  

Perhaps I am too cynical, but believe that this is what Sanchez tacitly wants: UP refusing to budge, so he can use the excuse to pass the Investure with help of Casado (who has already indicated tonight he is open to talks with PSOE) under the pretense of "creating a stable government in the national interest" or some bubbly statement like that.

If he wanted to govern with UP he would have done so. They agreed on almost everything, the policy paper, Podemos Ministers in Government, Iglesias out of Government, and then he just suddenly ends the talks. It just does not sound to me like someone who wants to govern with Podemos. Rather their marginalisation and delegitimisation seems his goal. But who knows. Speculation on my part. Its not like Podemos is entirely innocent in that whole saga either.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on November 10, 2019, 07:49:02 PM
In fact I suspect UP will become more obstinate after this election since their view might be: after PSOE threw everything at us the damage is 7 seats.  Bad but not disastrous.  We for sure have to stick to our guns.  

Perhaps I am too cynical, but believe that this is what Sanchez tacitly wants: UP refusing to budge, so he can use the excuse to pass the Investure with help of Casado (who has already indicated tonight he is open to talks with PSOE) under the pretense of "creating a stable government in the national interest" or some bubbly statement like that.

If he wanted to govern with UP he would have done so. They agreed on almost everything, the policy paper, Podemos Ministers in Government, Iglesias out of Government, and then he just suddenly ends the talks. It just does not sound to me like someone who wants to govern with Podemos. Rather their marginalisation and delegitimisation seems his goal. But who knows. Speculation on my part. Its not like Podemos is entirely innocent in that whole saga either.

The talks collapsed because the negotiations between PSOE and Podemos revealed that Sanchez and  Iglesias's egos were mutually incompatible. Both believed they had more to sell than the  other, and as any backing down could be interpreted as weakness. Even if this was ignored, it would come up again, and again in the future. There is a lot of pride here: one is the leader a long-lasting party who successfully utilized the grassroots to counter-coup his rivals. The other is a personalistic campaigner who heads an insurgent party with the goal of disrupting the old establishment. If neither was going to give way, then both were fated to go their separate ways. If Casado is to back PSOE's govt, it's because he is (and was recognized to be by everyone  last cycle) far more malleable and less personalistic than his rivals.  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 10, 2019, 07:55:02 PM
The pro-independence parties grew by less than I would have thought in Catalonia given recent events and rise of VOX in the rest of Spain.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 10, 2019, 08:20:00 PM
Catalonia:

ERC 22.56% (-2.03%) 13 (-2)
PSC-PSOE 20.51% (-2.7%) 12 (nc)
JxCAT 13.68% (+1.63%) 8 (+1)
ECP 14.18% (-0.71%) 7 (nc)
PP 7.43% (+2,58%) 2 (+1)
CUP 6.35% (FR 2.74%) 2 (+2)
VOX 6.3% (+2.7%) 2 (+1)
Cs 5.61% (-5,94%) 2 (-3)

Nationalists 42.59% (+3,21%) 23 (+1)
Left (incl MP) 35.77% (-2.33%) 19 (nc)
Right 19.35% (-0.65%) 6 (-1)



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 10, 2019, 08:36:20 PM
Results in my province, Las Palmas

PSOE 29,15% (+0.83%) 3 (nc)
PP 21.39% (+5.18%) 2 (nc)
UP 15.41% (-1.31%) 1 (-1)
VOX 13.3% (+6.3%) 1 (+1)
NC-CC 9.94% (-3.1%)* 1 (+1)
Cs 5.78% (-9.63%) 0 (-1)

NC and CC ran separately in April, getting 6.65% and 6.39% respectively

Finally UP lost the second seat to the regionalist coalition, with VOX winning the seat lost by Cs. MP got 1.7% of the vote; even adding UP+MP it's not enough to double the regionalist list. UP came second in April slightly ahead of PP (it was catastrophic result for the conservatives)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mr. Illini on November 10, 2019, 09:11:15 PM
While it seems like the far right is declining in influence in parts of central and Western Europe (even if slowly), Vox’s performance today is discouraging.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on November 10, 2019, 10:06:50 PM
it seems like the far right is declining in influence in parts of central and Western Europe

God I wish that were true.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: xelas81 on November 10, 2019, 10:28:15 PM
How come BNG made the comeback?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: H. Ross Peron on November 11, 2019, 12:11:41 AM
1) Was Vox's gains more due to direct transfers from the C's (as at least one post here indicates) or due to a "two-step" swing where PP voters swung to Vox but then C voters went over to the PP?

2) It seems like the C's have significant ideological affinity to the UPyD. Why did the former gain at the expense of the latter and are there differences in the compositions/worldviews of those two parties?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Tender Branson on November 11, 2019, 12:26:53 AM
Murcia: The Saxony of Spain.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: ericpolitico on November 11, 2019, 02:03:26 AM
Can anyone help to explain why did Ciudadanos lose 3/4 of their seats?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Good Habit on November 11, 2019, 04:10:49 AM
Can anyone help to explain why did Ciudadanos lose 3/4 of their seats?
Well, initially, C's seemed to fill a niche in the Center, to the left of PP. Then they tried to take over the leadership of the right, inheriting the place of PP. When this failed, they tried it even further to the right, thus legitimizing VOX. So they vacated the niche between PSOE and PP, couldn't replace PP, and didn't find a large enough niche between PP and VOX..


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 11, 2019, 07:39:02 AM
Rivera Quits, Gives Up Politics


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 11, 2019, 07:48:51 AM
Albert Rivera quits after electoral debacle

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/11/11/inenglish/1573467972_489207.html

Quote
The leader of Spanish political party Ciudadanos (Citizens), Albert Rivera, today resigned from his role in the wake of the center-right group’s dismal showing in Sunday’s repeat general election /...)

Speaking to reporters on Monday, Rivera explained his reasons for quitting. “Out of responsibility, I must resign from this position,” he said. “Bad results belong to the leader.” He went on to announce that he was also quitting as a deputy in Congress, saying that he was doing so “for the good of the project.” He added that he wanted to “make way for another deputy who is passionate about entering Congress. I have never been tied to a seat in politics.” He made clear that he was “leaving politics. Public life. I have enjoyed it, and I have learned.”
 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan on November 11, 2019, 08:05:47 AM
I still refuse to believe that Teruel actually exists.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Zinneke on November 11, 2019, 08:33:30 AM
I'm starting to think the countless elections benefit bipartisan politics and that C's collapse is also due to lack of resources, experience and obvious leadership outside of the broken record Rivera. How exactly is Arrimadas going to turn their fortunes around?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mr. Illini on November 11, 2019, 08:35:15 AM
it seems like the far right is declining in influence in parts of central and Western Europe

God I wish that were true.

I've been hopeful following results in Austria, Switzerland, German local elections, etc


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: DL on November 11, 2019, 09:02:25 AM
Is the Teruel member who was elected considered more right or left?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 11, 2019, 09:40:51 AM

The consequences of this fiasco in the years to come are unpredictable


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: VPH on November 11, 2019, 09:50:48 AM
Seems like Chega and Vox did well in peripheral suburbs of Lisbon and Madrid respectively.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 11, 2019, 09:58:19 AM
Seems like Chega and Vox did well in peripheral suburbs of Lisbon and Madrid respectively.

I guess that was to be expected, since C's performed really well there in the past election. Still,  the only medium sized municipality they won seems to be Valdemoro. The PP still beat them easily in the wealthier municipalities of northwestern Madrid.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: CumbrianLefty on November 11, 2019, 10:00:43 AM
Seems like Chega and Vox did well in peripheral suburbs of Lisbon and Madrid respectively.

Well, with Chega "doing well" is something of a relative term tbf.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 11, 2019, 10:17:29 AM
Also, I can't wait to for eldiario.es to upload their precincts map. I believe it took them a week for April's election.

They also have some useful maps here:

By blocs (also a swing map): https://www.eldiario.es/politica/MAPA-izquierda-resultados-ideologicos-municipio_0_962054275.html

Winners on the right: https://www.eldiario.es/politica/Vox-PP-comunidades-autonomas_0_962054238.html

Performance by party: https://www.eldiario.es/politica/MAPA-Espana-partido-municipio_0_962054225.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 11, 2019, 10:26:10 AM
You should be more precise when referring to the Madrid periphery. As Skye says, there is a wealthy periphery located NW of the capital city, while the peripheral suburbs and municipalities located south are working class and lean to the left. An interesting question is to determine whether Vox has managed to make inroads in working class areas.

Santiago Abascal was trying to follow the Salvini's handbook, appealing to the patriotism of the working class with a sentence copied to a leader of the old Falange (something like "the poor cannot afford not having a homeland"). Cs leader Albert Rivera previously used sentences resembling the words of the Falange's founder José Antonio Primo de Rivera (buried in Valle de los Caídos), either intentionally or ignoring their symbolism. "I see neither reds nor blues, I only see Spaniards". Rivera and his allegedly centrist and liberal party have been the biggest fiasco, alongside with the tactical irresponsibility of Pedro Sánchez.  The 'Macronista' alliance between PSOE and Cs had 180 seats in April for only 130 seats in November. Quoting journalist Enric Juliana, Albert Rivera has been the hare of the far right


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on November 11, 2019, 10:30:10 AM
I think the big issue for C's is they were borne from the outrage at the craven corruption of Rajot et al, but those scandals are starting to fade away into the past.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on November 11, 2019, 10:31:42 AM
Also, I can't wait to for eldiario.es to upload their precincts map. I believe it took them a week for April's election.

They also have some useful maps here:

By blocs (also a swing map): https://www.eldiario.es/politica/MAPA-izquierda-resultados-ideologicos-municipio_0_962054275.html

Winners on the right: https://www.eldiario.es/politica/Vox-PP-comunidades-autonomas_0_962054238.html

Performance by party: https://www.eldiario.es/politica/MAPA-Espana-partido-municipio_0_962054225.html

Disagree with how they lack seperatist or localist blocks but...whatever. Anyway, to round out the group here is El Pais's winner map:

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/11/10/actualidad/1573410266_570919.html

Most interesting results:

()

Madrid region. That suburban ring is so noticeable you would think we were in London or the Upper Midwest.

()

Teruel Existe's winning map. Also contains what I think are the only 2 C's municipalities nationwide.  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 11, 2019, 11:22:13 AM
Also, I can't wait to for eldiario.es to upload their precincts map. I believe it took them a week for April's election.

They also have some useful maps here:

By blocs (also a swing map): https://www.eldiario.es/politica/MAPA-izquierda-resultados-ideologicos-municipio_0_962054275.html

Winners on the right: https://www.eldiario.es/politica/Vox-PP-comunidades-autonomas_0_962054238.html

Performance by party: https://www.eldiario.es/politica/MAPA-Espana-partido-municipio_0_962054225.html

Disagree with how they lack seperatist or localist blocks but...whatever. Anyway, to round out the group here is El Pais's winner map:

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/11/10/actualidad/1573410266_570919.html

Most interesting results:

()

Madrid region. That suburban ring is so noticeable you would think we were in London or the Upper Midwest.

()

Teruel Existe's winning map. Also contains what I think are the only 2 C's municipalities nationwide. 

Regarding these 2 maps:

The Madrid map ring of suburbs for Vox is actually more ex-urban in character, extending well into Castille-La Mancha. That area also has seen relatively high population growth I think.

Madrid's closer (and larger) suburbs are the very affluent western suburbs (Las Rozas, Majadahonda, etc) which went to PP and the old and relatively working class "red belt" (Getafe, Rivas-Vaciamadrid, etc), which went to PSOE.

Also Teruel Existe's map is hilarious to me in that they won the province by winning big in the provincial capital of Teruel. Most of actually rural Teruel did not vote for them. Teruel town is not a large town by any means (35 000 inhabitants) but considering TE's platform it is funny how rural Teruel did not vote for them, while "urban" Teruel did. (though in the 2nd and 3rd largest towns in the province, the only 2 others above 5000 people, they did not do particularly well)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: afleitch on November 11, 2019, 01:01:13 PM
What's with Vox on the coast? Non Spanish nationals?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on November 11, 2019, 01:30:11 PM
Did Vox manage to win some traditional working class areas that normally go to PSOE like Trump, Le Pen, Salvini, etc.

Someone with better knowledge of this can enumerate more, but Vox is a different flavor then those guys. Vox is more reactionary and hearkening back to a 'glorious past' during the francoist regime, whereas those guys are arguing to build something something new. They are approaching a problem and say "we need new ideas" Vox looks at a problem and says "we need old ideas." It's been mentioned before that migration is a minor tenant on Vox's platform, the Falagist stuff, Castilian Nationalism, Centralism, and anti-Catalan rhetoric moves more voters. This all leads to Vox's (originally C's) voters being more wealthy, either Sub/Exurban or living in the exclusive Old City core, Middle-Aged, and Male, according to demographic surveys and previous exit polls. The only part of that list which is shared with the 'WWC' stereotype is Male.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 11, 2019, 01:52:47 PM
So, El Norte de Castilla has posted precinct maps for some Castillian provinces. Thing is, my hometown of Palencia saw very little change, other than the PP regaining ground and an improvement of the PSOE, and since VOX just barely improved from their April performance, the map has very few variations. The PP once again won resoundingly in the city centre, while the PSOE performed well in the more working class areas. Tale as old as time, I guess.

If anyone wants to check them: https://www.elnortedecastilla.es/elecciones/generales/consulta-votado-ciudad-20191111141632-nt.html



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: mgop on November 11, 2019, 03:27:21 PM
It's beautiful to see c's in ruins. Most evil party in Spain.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 11, 2019, 03:41:25 PM
Sorry for the double post, but eldiario.es has uploaded the national precinct map! Check it out: https://www.eldiario.es/politica/votaron-resultados-elecciones-generales-calle_0_962404599.html

Some Madrid pics:

Madrid City centre: Podemos wins Lavapiés again.
()

The wealthy Salamanca and Chamartín districts: Strongholds of the right.
()

The orange belt is gone: The PP wins in the northern PAUs of Madrid (Las Tablas, Sanchinarro, Montecarmelo, Valdebebas), where C's had one of their strongest performances in the past election.
()

La Moraleja: One of the (if not the?) wealthiest neighborhoods in Spain. Left who?
()

The wealthy suburbs to the northwest of Madrid: These are the urban municipalities where the right performs the best in the Community of Madrid. One of these, Pozuelo de Alarcón, is the wealthiest in Spain.
()

The red belt: These are the working class municipalities to the south of Madrid that Velasco mentioned. The left does well in these.
()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 11, 2019, 04:10:53 PM
I think the big issue for C's is they were borne from the outrage at the craven corruption of Rajot et al, but those scandals are starting to fade away into the past.

Cs lost credibility as champion against corruption when Rivera decided to support the PP in Madrid, Castilla y León and Murcia. All these regions have been in the PP hands for decades with numerous corruption scandals. While the oranges had the pretext of the ERE scandals to oust socialists from the Andalusian government with the help of the far right, it's very difficult to explain the deals with PP and Vox in the other regions. The Rivera's sectarianism against the left and his departure from the centre were at the expense of one of the Cs founding banners: the "democratic regeneration" (i.e cleanliness and fight against corruption). Obviously time plays in favour of the PP as people begins to forget...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 11, 2019, 04:27:02 PM
Sorry for the double post, but eldiario.es has uploaded the national precinct map! Check it out:

Wonderful news!

My precinct: PSOE 30.9, PP 22.1, UP 19.8, VOX 10.9, NC-CC 5.3, Cs 4.6

Turnout 60 (down 9)

I suspect that I mixed up my precinct with a neighbouring and more left leaning one in previous interactive maps. I checked the income map by precinct and mine is just on the national average.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: SPQR on November 11, 2019, 04:41:25 PM
It's very interesting how income is a significant predictor of left/right vote, even when accounting for Vox - the La Moraleja result is just startling...
Here in Italy for instance wealthy neighbourhoods in big cities have gone hard towards PD in the last year.


What's up with Teruel Existe instead? When was it founded? What's its platform? Which gov't would it support?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on November 11, 2019, 04:56:11 PM
It's very interesting how income is a significant predictor of left/right vote, even when accounting for Vox - the La Moraleja result is just startling...
Here in Italy for instance wealthy neighbourhoods in big cities have gone hard towards PD in the last year.


What's up with Teruel Existe instead? When was it founded? What's its platform? Which gov't would it support?

Income/class tends to be the superior indicator of partisan lines in those countries with a 'recent' authoritarian past. Those who are wealthy got their wealth during the regime and are more likely to have some fond memories or at least rose-tinted glasses in regards to it's failings. If you were not wealthy or successful during the regime, you look back on it's failings much harsher, and gravitate towards those who carry on the tradition of the opposition from those years. Its a trend in Latin America as well, regardless of which 'pole' the regime leaned towards. This is a simplistic  explanation why Madrid is a Right stronghold despite this decades global trend that has seen the youth increasingly urbanize and dominate cities, Madrid boomed during Franco's years.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 11, 2019, 05:09:11 PM
Its a trend in Latin America as well, regardless of which 'pole' the regime leaned towards.

Well, in Venezuela it isn't exactly due to that. Our last authoritarian regime lasted from 1952 to 1958, and the relevance that it may hold today is debatable (there are certainly some nostalgic for the era, but not nearly on Franco's level). Our voting patterns are probably more due to the fact that chavismo's main pillar is to fuel class warfare as much as possible lol.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 11, 2019, 11:49:55 PM
What's up with Teruel Existe instead? When was it founded? What's its platform? Which gov't would it support?

Teruel Existe (TE) is a citizens' platform founded 20 years ago to defend the interests of Teruel province, that is afflicted by depopulation and lack of infrastructures. It's the first time that TE contests an election. The "forgotten province" is part of the so-called "Emptied Spain" and many of its inhabitants have migrated the neighbouring Zaragoza and Valencia. Deputy elect Tomás Guitarte is an architect and says that he's neither leftwing nor rightwing, although back in 1987 and 1991 he ran as local candidate for the centre-left regionalist Aragonese Union (CHA). Guitarte will sponsor legislative measures in favour of his province and the Emptied Spain. TE also won two seats in the Senate that could be decisive, given that the PSOE lost its majority in the Upper Chamber. I guess that Guitarte will be a politician in the fashion of the PRC leader Miguel Ángel Revilla, the regionalist premier of Cantabria


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 12, 2019, 06:52:58 AM
Also, since we live in the same town, here are the results from my precinct, for an interesting comparison with Velasco's precinct:

Turnout: 69% (-4)

PSOE: 24% (+2)
PP: 24% (+6)
Vox: 18% (+8)
UP: 16% (-2)
CC: 7% (+3)
Cs: 5% (-15 !)
MP: 2% (+2)

So it seems in terms of right vs left basically nothing moved (if anything a tiny swing to the left), with Cs support going evenly to PP and Vox for some reason. Beyond that, Canarian regionalists win from basically everyone and not much change.

My precinct is a suburban middle class precinct quite far from the city center and with a rather rural "tone" to it (it feels more rural than areas that are even further away from the city).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 12, 2019, 07:50:45 AM
Sánchez and Iglesias have a "pre-agreement" to form a coalition government. *Insert clown emoji here*

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/11/12/actualidad/1573561378_089352.html

Question is, do they have the votes?



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on November 12, 2019, 08:02:14 AM
Sánchez and Iglesias have a "pre-agreement" to form a coalition government. *Insert clown emoji here*

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/11/12/actualidad/1573561378_089352.html

Question is, do they have the votes?



Haha. They should both be resigning from politics, not leading the country.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on November 12, 2019, 08:23:16 AM
Sánchez and Iglesias have a "pre-agreement" to form a coalition government. *Insert clown emoji here*

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/11/12/actualidad/1573561378_089352.html

Question is, do they have the votes?



THEN WHAT WAS THE POINT OF THIS ELECTION?!?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: jaichind on November 12, 2019, 08:36:50 AM
Sánchez and Iglesias have a "pre-agreement" to form a coalition government. *Insert clown emoji here*

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/11/12/actualidad/1573561378_089352.html

Question is, do they have the votes?



THEN WHAT WAS THE POINT OF THIS ELECTION?!?

To take PSOE-C off the table.  Having less choices clarifies the mind.   Research has shown that people are leas happy when their 401K gives them too many mutual funds to choose from.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 12, 2019, 08:38:26 AM
Sánchez and Iglesias have a "pre-agreement" to form a coalition government. *Insert clown emoji here*

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/11/12/actualidad/1573561378_089352.html

Question is, do they have the votes?



THEN WHAT WAS THE POINT OF THIS ELECTION?!?

*Clown emoji intensifies*


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 12, 2019, 10:01:03 AM
Preliminary deal between PSOE and UP (English version)

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/11/12/inenglish/1573562718_041862.html

Quote
Caretaker Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez and the leader of left-wing Unidas Podemos, Pablo Iglesias, have signed a preliminary agreement to form a coalition government after Sunday’s inconclusive repeat general election in Spain. Despite months of negotiations between the parties to strike a governing deal following the April poll, the two leaders have done this deal less than 48 hours after Sunday’s vote (...)  

Sánchez and Iglesias have a "pre-agreement" to form a coalition government. *Insert clown emoji here*

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/11/12/actualidad/1573561378_089352.html

Question is, do they have the votes?



THEN WHAT WAS THE POINT OF THIS ELECTION?!?

They have no other choice but making a virtue of need.

But yes: what was the point of this strategic fiasco, Mr Sánchez?

It won't be easy, but the deal will have the numbers to pass the investiture in a second vote. ERC spokesman Gabriel Rufián said on election night that they won't block the formation of a progressive government. On paper, ERC is willing to abstain. However, the situation in Catalonia is  very turbulent and the pragmatic ERC leadership faces pressure from the Puigdemont group (JxCAT) and the far left (CUP).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: 🦀🎂🦀🎂 on November 12, 2019, 11:33:00 AM
What is CUP's relationship with Podemos? Any far left solidarity, or are they literally never going to compromise?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Oryxslayer on November 12, 2019, 11:48:03 AM
If Podemos and PSOE actually have a deal then it still needs one of the following to at minimum abstain:

-PP
-C's
-Catalan Parties
-Mutually incompatible parties like NA+, CCa, and El Bildu

PSOE+Podemos+Mas+EAJ/PNV+BNQ+TE!+PRC+El Bildu = 173

Which you know wouldn't be a problem if we had this deal last time -_-


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Lumine on November 12, 2019, 11:55:33 AM
PP, C's and JxCat have said they'll vote against - CC hasn't ruled it out yet -, so it would seem they'll need ERC to abstain.

I know it's been said before, but still... Godd*mn, what was the point of the election then? Sanchez has made so many u-turns it's almost absurd.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Intell on November 12, 2019, 12:11:00 PM
What is CUP's relationship with Podemos? Any far left solidarity, or are they literally never going to compromise?

Isn't podemos a have a referendum, Catalonia independence is a frivolous issue that doesn't matter sort of party.

While CUP is a Catalonia needs to be independent and socialist because Spain is a fasicst state oppressing catalans/other groups.

Don't think such an alliance would work, but I might be completely wrong.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 12, 2019, 12:22:34 PM
I personally expect CC to abstain, if only because of their deal with NCa, but I could see also a split vote (NCa voting yes and CC proper voting no).

Either way, CC-NC are irrelevant. It all comes down to ERC now. If they abstain we have a government. If they do not, it is over (Catalans+PP+Cs+Vox are at 175).

What is CUP's relationship with Podemos? Any far left solidarity, or are they literally never going to compromise?

There is some sort of solidarity, but not much. CUP puts the national question first. They are a party for radical far left Catalans who will never compromise. Unless said compromise involves putting the party of big business, led by a corrupt politician as premier of Catalonia because muh independence.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: crals on November 12, 2019, 12:46:55 PM
Didn't ERC cause the first election by refusing to vote for the budget though? Even if they abstain now what's the point if the government is unable to pass a budget soon?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: SPQR on November 12, 2019, 02:02:25 PM
What's up with Teruel Existe instead? When was it founded? What's its platform? Which gov't would it support?

Teruel Existe (TE) is a citizens' platform founded 20 years ago to defend the interests of Teruel province, that is afflicted by depopulation and lack of infrastructures. It's the first time that TE contests an election. The "forgotten province" is part of the so-called "Emptied Spain" and many of its inhabitants have migrated the neighbouring Zaragoza and Valencia. Deputy elect Tomás Guitarte is an architect and says that he's neither leftwing nor rightwing, although back in 1987 and 1991 he ran as local candidate for the centre-left regionalist Aragonese Union (CHA). Guitarte will sponsor legislative measures in favour of his province and the Emptied Spain. TE also won two seats in the Senate that could be decisive, given that the PSOE lost its majority in the Upper Chamber. I guess that Guitarte will be a politician in the fashion of the PRC leader Miguel Ángel Revilla, the regionalist premier of Cantabria

Thanks!
It's fascinating really - heard a lot about "Emptied Spain", the fact that "forgotten lands" are now going all the way to elect their own place-based representatives is quite a step from simply voting for anti-establishment parties.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on November 12, 2019, 03:02:02 PM
How likely is the ERC to abstain?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese on November 12, 2019, 04:45:23 PM
THEN WHAT WAS THE POINT OF THIS ELECTION?!?

Pedro Sánchez, the Theresa May of Spain.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 12, 2019, 04:47:33 PM
THEN WHAT WAS THE POINT OF THIS ELECTION?!?

Pedro Sánchez, the Theresa May of Spain.

Your choice at this election: Strong and Stable leadership with the Socialist Party or a coalition of chaos led by (checks notes) the Socialist party


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: windjammer on November 12, 2019, 04:49:04 PM
I like Pedro Sanchez so much. He's such a bastard!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Lord Halifax on November 12, 2019, 09:26:01 PM
Preliminary deal between PSOE and UP (English version)

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/11/12/inenglish/1573562718_041862.html

Quote
Caretaker Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez and the leader of left-wing Unidas Podemos, Pablo Iglesias, have signed a preliminary agreement to form a coalition government after Sunday’s inconclusive repeat general election in Spain. Despite months of negotiations between the parties to strike a governing deal following the April poll, the two leaders have done this deal less than 48 hours after Sunday’s vote (...)  

Sánchez and Iglesias have a "pre-agreement" to form a coalition government. *Insert clown emoji here*

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/11/12/actualidad/1573561378_089352.html

Question is, do they have the votes?



THEN WHAT WAS THE POINT OF THIS ELECTION?!?

They have no other choice but making a virtue of need.

But yes: what was the point of this strategic fiasco, Mr Sánchez?

It won't be easy, but the deal will have the numbers to pass the investiture in a second vote. ERC spokesman Gabriel Rufián said on election night that they won't block the formation of a progressive government. On paper, ERC is willing to abstain. However, the situation in Catalonia is  very turbulent and the pragmatic ERC leadership faces pressure from the Puigdemont group (JxCAT) and the far left (CUP).

If Sanchez becomes PM is it likely they can finish the process and have the votes before Christmas?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on November 12, 2019, 10:18:26 PM
THEN WHAT WAS THE POINT OF THIS ELECTION?!?

Pedro Sánchez, the Theresa May of Spain.

Your choice at this election: Strong and Stable leadership with the Socialist Party or a coalition of chaos led by (checks notes) the Socialist party

tfw you are your own Ed Miliband


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: elephantower on November 13, 2019, 06:51:09 AM
It seems like there's two main barriers to Sanchez getting a government by Christmas (he'll probably agree one eventually), but I have no idea how long each will take:

1. Fleshing out the details of the Podemos deal, including a distribution of ministries
2. Negotiating an abstention from the ERC

What are the chances both get done by Christmas? #1 seems pretty likely to happen in time, but ERC might take their time and push hard for concessions?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 13, 2019, 07:35:47 AM
El País is reporting that the PNV lost a seat to the PP in Euskadi (I think it's from the province of Vizcaya). So now the PP has 89 deputies.

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/11/13/actualidad/1573633022_648788.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: BigSerg on November 13, 2019, 10:24:15 AM
The ERE case's sentence is November 19, sanchez's will be fu**ed


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 14, 2019, 08:24:03 AM
Remember a few weeks ago when the INE reported the median individual/household income by census blocks and we were discussing how it translated to electoral results by precinct? Well, eldiario.es has posted a great article today about it!

https://www.eldiario.es/politica/Vox-zonas-pobres-PP-Ciudadanos-10N_0_963104386.html

For example, this chart shows a clear correlation between, say, how the vote share for the PSOE drops steadily the higher the income percentile, or how the PP's vote share jumps dramatically in the highest income percentiles:
()

This one shows the overall left v. right vote as it relates to income on a national level:
()

And this one by autonomous community. Obviously, it's more complicated than it seems in some regions thanks to the strength of pro-independence parties (Looking at you, Catalonia and Basque Country):
()

Plus, a nifty precinct map that also includes income info by precinct, and also shows how the wealthier and poorer precincts vote: https://www.eldiario.es/politica/MAPAS-Espana-pobre-elecciones-calle-10N_0_963104406.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on November 14, 2019, 09:09:01 AM
Is Valencia basically Spain's Ohio?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: rob in cal on November 14, 2019, 03:44:45 PM
Couple questions.  Is there a PP or Vox politician who calls for a hard line on immigration, but is not for  a crackdown on Catalonia?  I would think there would be someone out there whose top concern would be keeping Spain ethnically about how it is now, but wouldn't be nearly concerned about whether Catalonia moves toward independence.

Also, among the Basque and Catalonian parties do any stake out any clear positions on the rightwing when it comes to immigration policy.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 14, 2019, 04:33:32 PM
Couple questions.  Is there a PP or Vox politician who calls for a hard line on immigration, but is not for  a crackdown on Catalonia?  I would think there would be someone out there whose top concern would be keeping Spain ethnically about how it is now, but wouldn't be nearly concerned about whether Catalonia moves toward independence.

Also, among the Basque and Catalonian parties do any stake out any clear positions on the rightwing when it comes to immigration policy.

Nope. The Spanish right is extremely well united into "the Unity of Spain" TM. It is hard to find individual politicians deviating much from the party line, but even then, there aren't really any politicians who want to advocate for a hard immigration policy but are more lenient on Catalonia, at least not in the Spanish right.

Closest thing I can think of is probably some people in the Basque branch of PP, particularly someone like Borja Sémper (leader of PP in San Sebastian town hall), who is indeed a moderate in the Catalan (and Basque) issue. However he is also very much anti-populist and also extremely moderate on immigration; not exactly what you are looking for. Similarly I imagine there must be some pro-immigration but anti-Catalonia politicians in the Spanish right (probably in Cs?)

As for the Catalan/Basque parties, in Catalonia JxCat would be the ones to look for regarding immigration. And in my opinion they have a lot of mixed signals. On one hand, they have attacked mayor of Barcelona Ada Colau on "law and order" a lot, claiming Barcelona is now a lawless city and what not. On the other hand, their November platform was very much to the left on immigration, even further left than PSOE's!

As for the Basque Country, PNV is probably what you are looking for. While they are still nowhere even close to being like say, Vox on immigration, they still adopt a relatively hard policy, definitely on the right and closer to PP than PSOE.

So other than PNV (and even there with some limitations), no, not really.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 14, 2019, 05:35:57 PM
What is CUP's relationship with Podemos? Any far left solidarity, or are they literally never going to compromise?

Podemos is something like a centrist and burgeois party for the CUP, but there is some solidarity or affinity between the Podemos far-left faction (Anticapitalistas) and the Catalan far-left separatists. Some people within Anticapitalistas is truly fascinated by the revolutionary wing of the Catalan independence movement. I recall some statement or support manifesto revoked due to pressure from the Podemos leadership.

Couple questions.  Is there a PP or Vox politician who calls for a hard line on immigration, but is not for  a crackdown on Catalonia?  I would think there would be someone out there whose top concern would be keeping Spain ethnically about how it is now, but wouldn't be nearly concerned about whether Catalonia moves toward independence.

Also, among the Basque and Catalonian parties do any stake out any clear positions on the rightwing when it comes to immigration policy.

Nope. The Spanish right is extremely well united into "the Unity of Spain" TM. It is hard to find individual politicians deviating much from the party line, but even then, there aren't really any politicians who want to advocate for a hard immigration policy but are more lenient on Catalonia, at least not in the Spanish right.

Closest thing I can think of is probably some people in the Basque branch of PP, particularly someone like Borja Sémper (leader of PP in San Sebastian town hall), who is indeed a moderate in the Catalan (and Basque) issue. However he is also very much anti-populist and also extremely moderate on immigration; not exactly what you are looking for. Similarly I imagine there must be some pro-immigration but anti-Catalonia politicians in the Spanish right (probably in Cs?)

As for the Catalan/Basque parties, in Catalonia JxCat would be the ones to look for regarding immigration. And in my opinion they have a lot of mixed signals. On one hand, they have attacked mayor of Barcelona Ada Colau on "law and order" a lot, claiming Barcelona is now a lawless city and what not. On the other hand, their November platform was very much to the left on immigration, even further left than PSOE's!

As for the Basque Country, PNV is probably what you are looking for. While they are still nowhere even close to being like say, Vox on immigration, they still adopt a relatively hard policy, definitely on the right and closer to PP than PSOE.

So other than PNV (and even there with some limitations), no, not really.

I would challenge the notion that PNV is "tough on immigration". I'm not implying Basque nationalists are "lenient" (there is a middle ground on such issues) but anyway. Another question is that the PNV is a broad tent party that may incorporate hardliners.

Possibly that combination between "tough on immigration" and "lenient on Catalonia" can be fpund in certain minority faction within the Catalan independence movement which has xenophobic traits. I mean, the kind of nationalists regarding people from the rest of Spain as "inferior" might be prone to support a tough stance against otherf foreigners.

Also, don't forget there is a connection brteeen Puigdemont and the Flemish nationalism. The latter is certainly hardcore...

EDIT: Now I recall a proposal made by the Basque premier Iñigo Urkullu about the people rescued from the sea. If I remember well, Urkullu said they should be distributed between EU regions using objective criteria such as population, income or regional GDP. It sounds pragmatic and common srnse, not hardcore


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Zinneke on November 15, 2019, 04:03:34 PM
how accurate is this map?

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 15, 2019, 06:50:55 PM

It's accurate for Madrid in April 2019 elections and I guess for urban areas in the rest of Spain, excluding regions with peripheral nationalism. The map shows the Podemos stronghold of Lavapies (old town, gentrifying, labyrinthic), the PP stronghold of Salamanca (old town expansion with luxury shops), the Cs strength in upper-middle class new urban developments (PAUs in Madrid). However, the working class leftist strongholds are located south of Madrid ("cheap housing blocks"), not in the NW (the wealthy and rightwing periphery beyond Moncloa). On any case, the poorer areas vote PSOE as a general rule. Also, military and police bases are likely Vox strongholds (blocks around Museo de la Guardia Civil in Madrid, for instance)

November elections changed this map. Now the PP recovered in Cs strongholds and Vox is very strong in the south and west of the Madrid region. The far right is still stronger in wealthy areas, but it has made inroads in the southern periphery of Madrid (second in Fuenlabrada, a PSOE stronghold ). The precinct maps in media outlets are excellent and very useful


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on November 16, 2019, 04:13:04 PM

Well, it was kinda accurate before, you know, C's got slaughtered everywhere.

I guess it also depends on the region. As far as I can tell, UP has weak performances in Castile and León city centres. Then again, city centres around here are full of old people, not exactly UP's constituency.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on November 17, 2019, 03:42:01 PM
Vote transfers, according to Sigma Dos

https://www.elmundo.es/espana/elecciones-generales/2019/11/14/5dcc73e0fdddff39ae8b4629.html

() (https://ibb.co/s1Y9PbK)
photo hosting (https://es.imgbb.com/)

PSOE: PP 0.9, UP 2.5, Others 4.4, Abst 12.7
PP: PSOE 0.9, Cs 0.5, Vox 9.5, Others 0.6, Abst 7.9
Cs: PSOE 4.9, PP 23.9, Vox 9.4, Others 3.7, Abst 25.2
UP: PSOE 9.3, Others 10.3, Abst 10.3

Cs loses: 990k to PP, 387k to Vox, 203k to PSOE, 1 million didn't show up

Vox gains: 453k from Abst, 415k from PP, 387k from Cs, 58k from Others, 36k from PSOE

() (https://ibb.co/NrkVRTq)



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Lumine on November 17, 2019, 03:56:23 PM
Vote transfers, according to Sigma Dos

Interesting! I can see why C's would lose so many votes to PP (and it's not difficult to explain why they'd lose some to PSOE and VOX), but what is the explanation for those levels of abstention? Is it a reaction to the swings of the party, the campaign, or something else?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 17, 2019, 06:23:37 PM
Vote transfers, according to Sigma Dos

Interesting! I can see why C's would lose so many votes to PP (and it's not difficult to explain why they'd lose some to PSOE and VOX), but what is the explanation for those levels of abstention? Is it a reaction to the swings of the party, the campaign, or something else?

The most common theory seems to be centrist and centre-left Cs voters who are disappointed at their right turn, but who also absolutely refuse to vote for PSOE, which means their only option was abstaining.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: BigSerg on November 19, 2019, 08:45:16 AM
https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/11/19/inenglish/1574153889_778519.amp.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: mileslunn on November 20, 2019, 02:29:51 AM
What are the odds of another election or do you think ERC will abstain.  Ironically had PSOE-Podemos had the deal before, they wouldn't have to rely on them and if government falls, I think a right wing one is quite possible although who knows.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan on November 20, 2019, 10:26:16 AM
So how is 20N going this year?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 25, 2019, 06:58:16 AM
For some bizarre reason a lot of people are expecting a regional election in Catalonia soon (there have been rumours going a very long time back).

Still, given ERC's kingmaker position, here is today's poll for a regional election in Catalonia, done by NC Report / La Razón

ERC: 21% (32)
JxCat: 19% (31)
PSC: 17% (24)
Cs: 12% (17)
PP: 9% (12)
CatComú: 8% (9)
CUP: 6% (7)
Vox: 6% (3)

To be honest the number of seats they are giving Vox is extremely low for 6%, I would probably give them 5 seat with that percentage. After all PP got 4 seats on 4% of the vote in 2017.

Secessionists: 46% (70)
CatComú: 8% (9)
Unionists: 43% (56)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Lord Halifax on November 25, 2019, 11:19:31 PM
How are the negotiations going? Is it likely Sanchez will be invested on the 2nd vote?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on December 01, 2019, 03:19:17 AM
How are the negotiations going? Is it likely Sanchez will be invested on the 2nd vote?

ERC is in "no hurry". Maybe in 2020...

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/11/29/inenglish/1575028809_259967.html

Quote
The Catalan Republican Left (ERC), a separatist party that could be pivotal to the formation of a new government in Spain, is in “no hurry” to reach a deal with caretaker prime minister Pedro Sánchez of the Socialist Party (PSOE), who is seeking to get confirmed in the post after winning the November 10 election.

“During our meeting they explained that they are working with a more rushed timetable, and we said that we are in no hurry,” said ERC spokeswoman Marta Vilalta on Friday, alluding to the PSOE’s desire to get a government up and running before Christmas (...) 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: PSOL on December 04, 2019, 08:59:14 PM
In other news, refugee housing center “singled out” by Vox targeted with a grenade  (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/04/grenade-thrown-at-migrant-childrens-centre-in-madrid)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: BigSerg on December 05, 2019, 09:42:27 AM
In other news, refugee housing center “singled out” by Vox targeted with a grenade  (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/04/grenade-thrown-at-migrant-childrens-centre-in-madrid)

the only thing confirmed is that it was an Arab


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on December 05, 2019, 09:59:05 AM
In other news, refugee housing center “singled out” by Vox targeted with a grenade  (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/04/grenade-thrown-at-migrant-childrens-centre-in-madrid)

PP and Vox blocked a statement in the Madrid regional assembly to condemn the "attempt" and the "hate speech", reports eldiario.es

https://www.eldiario.es/madrid/PP-Vox-Hortaleza-Asamblea-Madrid_0_970803031.html


the only thing confirmed is that it was an Arab

You must try harder if you want to be in the Steve Bannon's payroll. Thank you for the fake news, anyway



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: BigSerg on December 05, 2019, 05:19:36 PM
In other news, refugee housing center “singled out” by Vox targeted with a grenade  (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/04/grenade-thrown-at-migrant-childrens-centre-in-madrid)

PP and Vox blocked a statement in the Madrid regional assembly to condemn the "attempt" and the "hate speech", reports eldiario.es

https://www.eldiario.es/madrid/PP-Vox-Hortaleza-Asamblea-Madrid_0_970803031.html


the only thing confirmed is that it was an Arab

You must try harder if you want to be in the Steve Bannon's payroll. Thank you for the fake news, anyway



https://twitter.com/i/status/1202348462714564608


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on December 07, 2019, 02:21:05 AM
In other news, refugee housing center “singled out” by Vox targeted with a grenade  (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/04/grenade-thrown-at-migrant-childrens-centre-in-madrid)

PP and Vox blocked a statement in the Madrid regional assembly to condemn the "attempt" and the "hate speech", reports eldiario.es

https://www.eldiario.es/madrid/PP-Vox-Hortaleza-Asamblea-Madrid_0_970803031.html


the only thing confirmed is that it was an Arab

You must try harder if you want to be in the Steve Bannon's payroll. Thank you for the fake news, anyway



https://twitter.com/i/status/1202348462714564608

1) The news is fake. Police spokepersons have denied the authenticity of the gossip

2) Twitter is not a reliable news source

https://www.publico.es/sociedad/atentado-hortaleza-verdades-bulos-contexto-atentado-centro-menores-hortaleza.html

Quote
El bulo del atacante magrebí

Una de las informaciones que comenzaron a circular rápidamente el miércoles apuntaba a una persona de origen magrebí como presunto autor del atentado. La información fue difundida por web de La Sexta y precisaba: “Un hombre de nacionalidad magrebí que ha saltado la valla, del centro de menas de Hortaleza, en Madrid, ha lanzado una granada de entrenamiento cuando era expulsado por un vigilante de seguridad". Horas después, La Sexta corrigió su noticia y afirmaba que esta información apuntada por una fuente sin precisar no había sido confirmada. Fuentes policiales han desmentido a Público la veracidad de esta información y aseguran que la cadena de televisión nunca se puso en contacto con la Policía para contrastarlo. Por el momento, la Brigada Provincial de Información no ha hablado de sospechosos.

"Dr White" is a quite telling nickname, btw


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on December 07, 2019, 04:26:49 AM
In other news, PP has offered PSOE a proposal for electoral reform. The new electoral system would basically be a rip-off of Greece's election system; expanding Congress to 400 seats and giving 50 extra seats to the popular vote winner.

In any case such a proposal would almost definitely be unconstitutional because of 2 provisions in Article 68 of the Constitution

Quote
-68.2: The electoral constituency is the province. The cities of Ceuta and Melilla shall be represented by one Member each. The total number of Members shall be distributed in accordance with the law, each constituency being allotted a minimum initial representation and the remainder being distributed in proportion to the population

-68.3: The election in each constituency shall be conducted on the basis of proportional representation.

The Spanish constitution makes it extremely hard to reform the electoral system, especially to make it more majoritarian (proposals to make it more proportional have been floated by UP/Cs in the past though and they are compartively simple).

In any case it is extremely unlikely that Sánchez would agree to the proposal, even if it would theoretically benefit PSOE.

https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20191206/472073154629/casado-ley-electoral-acuerdo-prima-de-mayoria.html

In the extremely unlikely case it is somehow passed as a constitutional reform and gets a referendum I would probably vote no. I am not opposed to majoritarian systems, but bonus for winners like Greece or Italy's old system are not the way to go.

My "ideal" majoritarian system  would probably be a hybrid of the American election system (open primaries to all citizens, extremely loose party discipline) and the French election system (2 round elections, single member districts)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on December 07, 2019, 08:52:54 AM
Yesterday it was the anniversary of the Spanish Constitution.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/12/06/inenglish/1575623662_245117.html

Quote
As Spain observes the 41st anniversary of its Constitution, the surge of a far-right party that seeks to recentralize the country has effectively neutralized all political talk about constitutional reform (...)

But the plans for reform that had been mostly pushed by the Socialist Party (PSOE) have been relegated to the back burner, as Spain’s main parties seek to defend the country’s current structure, known as the estado de las autonomías and based on significant devolved powers to the regions.

On Friday the caretaker prime minister, Pedro Sánchez of the PSOE, said that Spain’s current constitutional framework has enough tools to resolve “social and political conflicts,” and to address “the political and territorial crisis in Catalonia."(...)

Vox, which first entered the national parliament in April with 24 lawmakers and more than doubled this figure in November, has clearly stated its desire to change the basic structures of government, eliminating regional parliaments and police forces, and returning powers over healthcare, education and security to Madrid.

Meanwhile, the Catalan independence movement has repeatedly expressed its rejection of the Spanish Constitution, and even separatist parties that might support Sánchez’s latest bid to form a government, such as the Catalan Republican Left (ERC), defend the right to decide in an official referendum that would also require constitutional change.

In other news, PP has offered PSOE a proposal for electoral reform. The new electoral system would basically be a rip-off of Greece's election system; expanding Congress to 400 seats and giving 50 extra seats to the popular vote winner.

This proposal is not new. Casado has defended the 'Greek bonus' on previous occasions. The PP leader also defends that Vox is a 'Constitutionalist' party, despite the far-right party wants to demolish the territorial structure consecrated by the Constitution. Amazing guy


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: xelas81 on December 07, 2019, 11:52:19 AM
In other news, PP has offered PSOE a proposal for electoral reform. The new electoral system would basically be a rip-off of Greece's election system; expanding Congress to 400 seats and giving 50 extra seats to the popular vote winner.

In any case such a proposal would almost definitely be unconstitutional because of 2 provisions in Article 68 of the Constitution

Quote
-68.2: The electoral constituency is the province. The cities of Ceuta and Melilla shall be represented by one Member each. The total number of Members shall be distributed in accordance with the law, each constituency being allotted a minimum initial representation and the remainder being distributed in proportion to the population

-68.3: The election in each constituency shall be conducted on the basis of proportional representation.

The Spanish constitution makes it extremely hard to reform the electoral system, especially to make it more majoritarian (proposals to make it more proportional have been floated by UP/Cs in the past though and they are compartively simple).

In any case it is extremely unlikely that Sánchez would agree to the proposal, even if it would theoretically benefit PSOE.

https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20191206/472073154629/casado-ley-electoral-acuerdo-prima-de-mayoria.html

In the extremely unlikely case it is somehow passed as a constitutional reform and gets a referendum I would probably vote no. I am not opposed to majoritarian systems, but bonus for winners like Greece or Italy's old system are not the way to go.

My "ideal" majoritarian system  would probably be a hybrid of the American election system (open primaries to all citizens, extremely loose party discipline) and the French election system (2 round elections, single member districts)

Would creating national PR list in additional to provincial PR lists to "make up" differences between seats and votes list be constitutional? It would increase seats for smaller national parties while slightly decrease seats for regional parties.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on December 07, 2019, 12:16:57 PM
In other news, PP has offered PSOE a proposal for electoral reform. The new electoral system would basically be a rip-off of Greece's election system; expanding Congress to 400 seats and giving 50 extra seats to the popular vote winner.

In any case such a proposal would almost definitely be unconstitutional because of 2 provisions in Article 68 of the Constitution

Quote
-68.2: The electoral constituency is the province. The cities of Ceuta and Melilla shall be represented by one Member each. The total number of Members shall be distributed in accordance with the law, each constituency being allotted a minimum initial representation and the remainder being distributed in proportion to the population

-68.3: The election in each constituency shall be conducted on the basis of proportional representation.

The Spanish constitution makes it extremely hard to reform the electoral system, especially to make it more majoritarian (proposals to make it more proportional have been floated by UP/Cs in the past though and they are compartively simple).

In any case it is extremely unlikely that Sánchez would agree to the proposal, even if it would theoretically benefit PSOE.

https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20191206/472073154629/casado-ley-electoral-acuerdo-prima-de-mayoria.html

In the extremely unlikely case it is somehow passed as a constitutional reform and gets a referendum I would probably vote no. I am not opposed to majoritarian systems, but bonus for winners like Greece or Italy's old system are not the way to go.

My "ideal" majoritarian system  would probably be a hybrid of the American election system (open primaries to all citizens, extremely loose party discipline) and the French election system (2 round elections, single member districts)

Would creating national PR list in additional to provincial PR lists to "make up" differences between seats and votes list be constitutional? It would increase seats for smaller national parties while slightly decrease seats for regional parties.

Probably not. The constitution is fairly clear in that the electoral constituency is the province, though I guess courts could try and do some mental gymnastics to justify that but I don't think they would.

Also, contrary to popular belief, regional parties are not overrepresented. Here are the results for the election if it was done with a single national constituency and no threshold:

()
https://www.eldiario.es/politica/GRAFICO-quedaria-Congreso-electoral-circunscripcion_0_962403820.html

Notice how "other parties" actually go up, not down!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on December 19, 2019, 07:16:01 AM
Well, today was a big day regarding Catalonia.

First of all, the EU Court of Justice ruled that Oriol Junqueras, currently in jail, should have been seen as posessing parliamentary immunity during the judicial process. Spanish Courts assumed he first needed to swear in, but the EU justices disagree

The EU court of justice did rule that the trial does not need to be repeated, and lets Spanish Courts choose whether to free Junqueras out of jail or not. Ironically this makes things easier for Puigdemont and Toni Comín (also elected as MEPs) to swear in and achieve parliamentary immunity than it helps Junqueras himself, who might see no changes in his situation.

https://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20191219/fallo-justicia-europea-inmunidad-junqueras-7780633
https://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20191219/sentencia-oriol-junqueras-7780832

At the same time, Superior Court of Justice of Catalonia ruled on a judicial process related to premier Quim Torra, accused of disobedience for not removing a yellow lace (a pro-secessionist symbol) from the balcony of the Catalan Government building. His sentence is 1 and a half years barred from holding public office.

This ruling is not a firm ruling as Torra could theoretically appeal to the Spanish Supreme Court. This does mean Torra will remain as premier for now, until the sentence is final or Torra declines to appeal. If he is eventually disqualified from holding public office, Deputy Premier Pere Aragonés (ERC) would become acting premier and the standard government-making process would begin, not unlike after a regional election.

It is rumoured that Torra might call a snap election, even if he will be banned from standing for reelection. This would also mean JxCat wouldn't need to give ERC (even if just temporarily) the premiership of Catalonia.

https://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20191219/inhabilitacion-torra-legislatura-catalunya-cuenta-atras-7741469


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: windjammer on December 21, 2019, 04:16:31 PM
Any news about Pedro Sanchez?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on December 21, 2019, 06:46:21 PM

About government formation? Not really other than negotiations still going on and an expected confidence vote happening some time after new Year's.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on December 29, 2019, 02:28:46 PM
It has been an extremely slow news cycle lately because of Christmas and what not. Politically we did have sort of a surprise in that in Leon town hall the PSOE+UP+UPL majority (UPL being Leon province regionalists) passed a motion to call for the region of Castille-Leon to be split into 2: A region of Castille and a region of Leon (made up of 3 provinces: Leon, Zamora and Salamanca, all 3 along the Portuguese border)

This motion is going nowhere, but it is still interesting to see that it happened. It is also interesting to note that both PSOE and PP are divided on the issue (though PSOE much more so than PP).

Spliting autonomous communities is of dubious constitutionality, but not 100% unconstitutional like say, Catalan independence.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on December 29, 2019, 02:46:51 PM
Well this is what I get for speaking too early. We just got big news regarding government negotiations.

Apparently during negotiations PSOE has leaked to ERC the contents of the reports Spanish government prosecutors will make regarding the jail situation of former ERC leader Oriol Junqueras.

ERC apparently has agreed with those prosecutor arguments and has agreed with them, and will abstain in the government confidence vote.

It is expected that the government confidence votes will take place during the first week of January 2020.

https://cadenaser.com/ser/2019/12/29/politica/1577638677_168479.html

In any case, you can see this as Sánchez meddling into the job of prosecutors and further neutering separation of powers (not exactly strong in Spain). Plus depending on how conspiratorial you are, you could see this as some sort of big betrayal to the unity of Spain.

Either way, it seems a government will be formed soon


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Mike88 on December 29, 2019, 02:55:37 PM
Well this is what I get for speaking too early. We just got big news regarding government negotiations.

Apparently during negotiations PSOE has leaked to ERC the contents of the reports Spanish government prosecutors will make regarding the jail situation of former ERC leader Oriol Junqueras.

ERC apparently has agreed with those prosecutor arguments and has agreed with them, and will abstain in the government confidence vote.

It is expected that the government confidence votes will take place during the first week of January 2020.

https://cadenaser.com/ser/2019/12/29/politica/1577638677_168479.html

In any case, you can see this as Sánchez meddling into the job of prosecutors and further neutering separation of powers (not exactly strong in Spain). Plus depending on how conspiratorial you are, you could see this as some sort of big betrayal to the unity of Spain.

Either way, it seems a government will be formed soon
Now, the question is if this government has any ground to last. Anyway, political stability will probably not be a characteristic of the next Sanchéz government.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Former President tack50 on December 29, 2019, 03:08:08 PM
Well this is what I get for speaking too early. We just got big news regarding government negotiations.

Apparently during negotiations PSOE has leaked to ERC the contents of the reports Spanish government prosecutors will make regarding the jail situation of former ERC leader Oriol Junqueras.

ERC apparently has agreed with those prosecutor arguments and has agreed with them, and will abstain in the government confidence vote.

It is expected that the government confidence votes will take place during the first week of January 2020.

https://cadenaser.com/ser/2019/12/29/politica/1577638677_168479.html

In any case, you can see this as Sánchez meddling into the job of prosecutors and further neutering separation of powers (not exactly strong in Spain). Plus depending on how conspiratorial you are, you could see this as some sort of big betrayal to the unity of Spain.

Either way, it seems a government will be formed soon
Now, the question is if this government has any ground to last. Anyway, political stability will probably not be a characteristic of the next Sanchéz government.

Oh, definitely not. Even passing a budget will be a huge challenge. I do expect Sánchez to pass a (late) budget for 2020. However a 2021 budget seems very hard to pass in my opinion, and 2022 and beyond is not happening.

I would expect this government to last for around 2-3 years; definitely nowhere near a full term. The next election will be some time in 2022 I believe.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Skye on December 29, 2019, 03:43:40 PM
Well this is what I get for speaking too early. We just got big news regarding government negotiations.

Apparently during negotiations PSOE has leaked to ERC the contents of the reports Spanish government prosecutors will make regarding the jail situation of former ERC leader Oriol Junqueras.

ERC apparently has agreed with those prosecutor arguments and has agreed with them, and will abstain in the government confidence vote.

It is expected that the government confidence votes will take place during the first week of January 2020.

https://cadenaser.com/ser/2019/12/29/politica/1577638677_168479.html

In any case, you can see this as Sánchez meddling into the job of prosecutors and further neutering separation of powers (not exactly strong in Spain). Plus depending on how conspiratorial you are, you could see this as some sort of big betrayal to the unity of Spain.

Either way, it seems a government will be formed soon
Now, the question is if this government has any ground to last. Anyway, political stability will probably not be a characteristic of the next Sanchéz government.

Oh, definitely not. Even passing a budget will be a huge challenge. I do expect Sánchez to pass a (late) budget for 2020. However a 2021 budget seems very hard to pass in my opinion, and 2022 and beyond is not happening.

I would expect this government to last for around 2-3 years; definitely nowhere near a full term. The next election will be some time in 2022 I believe.

Yikes. I assumed this was going to be the end of it.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Walmart_shopper on December 30, 2019, 08:52:05 AM
Well this is what I get for speaking too early. We just got big news regarding government negotiations.

Apparently during negotiations PSOE has leaked to ERC the contents of the reports Spanish government prosecutors will make regarding the jail situation of former ERC leader Oriol Junqueras.

ERC apparently has agreed with those prosecutor arguments and has agreed with them, and will abstain in the government confidence vote.

It is expected that the government confidence votes will take place during the first week of January 2020.

https://cadenaser.com/ser/2019/12/29/politica/1577638677_168479.html

In any case, you can see this as Sánchez meddling into the job of prosecutors and further neutering separation of powers (not exactly strong in Spain). Plus depending on how conspiratorial you are, you could see this as some sort of big betrayal to the unity of Spain.

Either way, it seems a government will be formed soon

A new election definitely worked for Sanchez, but not at all in the way he expected.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on December 31, 2019, 01:05:13 PM
Investiture debate on January 4, 5 and 7

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/12/31/inenglish/1577794241_173675.html

Hopefully we'll have a coalition government

Happy New Year to everybody


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY on January 01, 2020, 01:10:19 PM
Well this is what I get for speaking too early. We just got big news regarding government negotiations.

Apparently during negotiations PSOE has leaked to ERC the contents of the reports Spanish government prosecutors will make regarding the jail situation of former ERC leader Oriol Junqueras.

ERC apparently has agreed with those prosecutor arguments and has agreed with them, and will abstain in the government confidence vote.

It is expected that the government confidence votes will take place during the first week of January 2020.

https://cadenaser.com/ser/2019/12/29/politica/1577638677_168479.html

In any case, you can see this as Sánchez meddling into the job of prosecutors and further neutering separation of powers (not exactly strong in Spain). Plus depending on how conspiratorial you are, you could see this as some sort of big betrayal to the unity of Spain.

Either way, it seems a government will be formed soon

A new election definitely worked for Sanchez, but not at all in the way he expected.

This is like breaking up with your boyfriend to see other people but then it doesn’t work out and you get back together and also Gabriel Rufián is there.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (General Elections on November 10)
Post by: Velasco on January 02, 2020, 05:25:37 AM

Apparently during negotiations PSOE has leaked to ERC the contents of the reports Spanish government prosecutors will make regarding the jail situation of former ERC leader Oriol Junqueras.

ERC apparently has agreed with those prosecutor arguments and has agreed with them, and will abstain in the government confidence vote.

It is expected that the government confidence votes will take place during the first week of January

In any case, you can see this as Sánchez meddling into the job of prosecutors and further neutering separation of powers (not exactly strong in Spain). Plus depending on how conspiratorial you are, you could see this as some sort of big betrayal to the unity of Spain.

Either way, it seems a government will be formed soon
.

Betrayal? Of course the Spanish Right will cry treason, but that's a strong word. I get that PSOE and ERC agreed bilateral negotiations between the Generalitat and the central government. Also, they agreed to call a popular consultation to ratify an eventual agreement between the parts involved in the Catalan conflict. As far as I know, socialists are not going beyond constitutional limits. Their major concessions have been apparently: 1) agreeing a bilateral negotiation and 2) admitting the existence of a political conflict in Catalonia, not only a cohabitation problem.

As for the prosecutor, I don't know. The ruling of that Luxembourg court concerns a specific question regarding the election of Oriol Junqueras as MEP,  not the ruling of the Spanish Supreme Court. However, Spain must comply with EU courts. I think the prison sentences for the Catalan politicians are harsh and disproportionate. Also, the reason why the prosecutor was holding on to the charge of rebellion (dismissed by the Supreme Court's ruling) was to move the trial from Barcelona to Madrid, in search of harsher sentences. Dirty maneuver, imo.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: bigic on January 02, 2020, 01:46:42 PM

ERC will enable the proposed Sanchez government


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Skye on January 02, 2020, 03:52:21 PM


So the PRC is a no and ¡Teruel Existe! is a yes.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on January 02, 2020, 06:14:52 PM


It could be an outlier, but still.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Oryxslayer on January 02, 2020, 10:43:21 PM


It could be an outlier, but still.

RIP C's, they flew too close to the sun and now are  six feet under.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: CumbrianLefty on January 03, 2020, 06:32:05 AM
The hard right turn by Cs deserved no better, and now Vox have removed their reason to exist.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on January 03, 2020, 10:34:45 AM
ERC gives green light to the investiture

https://elpais.com/elpais/inenglish.html

Quote
 The national council of the Catalan Republican Left has agreed to abstain at the investiture vote of Pedro Sánchez, who will likely become prime minister once more on Tuesday7 que  

ERC's willingness to pass the budget might be conditioned by progress in negotiations. PSOE's third in line José Luis Abalos said the consultation on eventual agrements is by no means a referendum on self-determination.

EH Bildu agreed to abstain as well, decision ratified in a grassroot cionsultation.

It's worth noting this new government is not only sustained by the PSOE-UP coalition agreement. There is a deal with the PNV as well. The Basque nationalists are playing a key role in favour of stability, while defending their own interests.

As of now, Sánchez has the support of PSOE, UP,  PNV, MP, Compromis, Teruel Existe and New Canaries. BNG and Canary Coalition are in doubt, while PRC turned against when the deal with ERC was released. In case PRC votes against,  PSOE threatens to break the coalition govt in Cantabria.

PP,  VOX, Cs, NA+ and Foro, as well JxCAT and CUP, will vote against


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on January 03, 2020, 10:37:04 AM
Decided to map the support for the government in terms of the popular vote. While some parties are still unconfirmed, this map makes the following assumptions:

-BNG will abstain
-CC will vote no

CC's vote is counted as an abstention, as NCa's Yes vote neutralizes CC's no vote. A more accurate way of counting would split their vote more proportionally but it works as a first start.

First of all, here are the popular vote totals:

Yes: 44.7%
No: 44.9%
Abstain: 4.8%

So this government would technically lose if the vote was done based on the popular vote, albeit very narrowly and it is possible I have miscounted votes.

Anyways here is the map

() (https://ibb.co/6wX1pK9)

Interestingly, only 5 autonomous communities have the Sánchez coalition winning, and of those only Asturias and the Basque Country have him above 50%. Sánchez is almost exclusively being carried by the huge margin in the Basque Country, getting 67% support though PNV-PSOE-UP and Bildu abstaining.

Maybe a "margins" map would be more interesting? Might make one later.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on January 03, 2020, 11:07:55 AM


First of all, here are the popular vote totals:

Yes: 44.7%
No: 44.9%
Abstain: 4.8%

So this government would technically lose if the vote was done based on the popular vote, albeit very narrowly and it is possible I have miscounted votes.

PSOE 28+ UP 12.84+ MP 2.4+ PNV 1.57+ TE 0.08 = 44.89

It' s a vote share higher than the result obtained by Boris Johnson's party in the UK elections.

Obviously we have a different electoral system. In Spain the Left and the Right are virtually tied in popularvote, according to the results of past year's elections (April and November). We have a divided country. This is the relevant issue, alongside the role of peripheral nationalists (Catalan, Basque) and the varied regionalist forces.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: bigic on January 03, 2020, 02:48:37 PM
CC will abstain


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: urutzizu on January 03, 2020, 04:54:47 PM
So, um, Quim Torra has just been removed from his office by the Electoral Court?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on January 04, 2020, 05:10:56 AM
So, um, Quim Torra has just been removed from his office by the Electoral Court?


Yesterday the Electoral Court agreed by a narrow margin to withdraw the credential of Quim Torra as member of the Catalan parliament, which makes him ineligible as premier. The decision was motivated by a last month's ruling that sentenced him to be disqualified 1 1/2 year. Torra was found guilty of disobedience, because during electoral campaign last spring, he refused to withdraw some yellow ribbons (a vindicating symbol for the Catalan jailed politicians) from the balcony of the regional government building. Torra's departure won't be immediate, as his defence will appeal before the Supreme Court and the ruling might be suspended as precautionary measure by the latter within 24 hours.

At the moment Torra is still premier, but his possible removal from office shakes up Catalan politics and complicates the investiture of Pedro Sánchez, because ERC will be pressed from the independence movement to withdraw the deal with the socialists.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on January 04, 2020, 11:41:13 AM
CC deputy Ana Oramas will vote against the investiture, despite her la party leadership agreed to abstain. Oramas has been always very vocal against Podemos. She is is a veteran member of parliament and belongs to an affluent family from Tenerife island.

ERC leadership holds on to the agreement with the PSOE, despite the Electoral Court. Nothing is safe until Tuesday

Right now the investiture has167 in favour, 165 against and 18  abstentions


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on January 04, 2020, 11:46:55 AM
Like almost always, the Spanish political scene has basically no headlines in Portugal, until today when Portuguese media found this:


Quote
Spain: Spanish Government Agreement provides for Portuguese televisions and radios to be broadcast in Galicia

Quote
The agreement between the PSOE and the Galician Nationalist Block (BNG) for the Galician nationalist deputy, Néstor Rego, to vote in favor of Pedro Sánchez's investiture foresees that it will facilitate the broadcasting of Portuguese radio and television channels in Galicia. This was a measure that was already foreseen in the well-known “Paz-Andrade Law”, dated 2014, but was not implemented.

Plus, this:


Quote
The gaffe of the day. Does Vox want to attach Portugal to the Spanish territory?

Quote
The Vox wants the Spaniards to protest on 12 January in front of town councils to claim a government that respects the "Constitution and sovereignty," but the map of the country is raising many doubts.

Vox seems not only to be unhappy with the idea of Catalonia's independence in Spain, but also to aspire the aggregation of Portugal to the territory of our brothers. Or it may have just been a design problem in an image used to promote a rally scheduled for January 12th.

Also, about the investiture vote, will Bildu abstain? That seems odd.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: P. Clodius Pulcher did nothing wrong on January 04, 2020, 01:28:14 PM
CC deputy Ana Oramas will vote against the investiture, despite her la party leadership agreed to abstain. Oramas has been always very vocal against Podemos. She is is a veteran member of parliament and belongs to an affluent family from Tenerife island.

ERC leadership holds on to the agreement with the PSOE, despite the Electoral Court. Nothing is safe until Tuesday

Right now the investiture has167 in favour, 165 against and 18  abstentions

TVE was reporting that CC was gonna be en contra. Good to hear it's just one though!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on January 05, 2020, 10:32:01 AM
Pedro Sánchez loses first vote

https://elpais.com/elpais/2020/01/03/inenglish/1578066750_393888.html

Quote
Spain will not break up; there will be dialogue to deal with the “political conflict” with Catalonia, without straying beyond the confines of the Spanish Constitution; and a coalition government made up of the Socialist Party (PSOE) and Unidas Podemos will implement reformist policies that will cast aside measures from previous administrations with regard to the economy, employment and personal freedoms. Those were some of the commitments set out on Saturday by caretaker Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez, as he addressed Spain’s lower house of parliament, the Congress of Deputies, on the first day of his investiture debate (...)

Very tense moments during the speech of the EH Bildu spokeswoman, with the rightwing opposition calling her  ''terrorist'' while she deemed the Spanish State ''authoritarian''.

Teruel Existe deputy denounced pressure from the right. Someone painted a,graffiti at his village home and Vox leader Santiago Abascal called him traitor in Tweeter

Cs spokeswoman.Inés Arrimadas tried unsuccessfully to appeal rebel PSOE deputies. Adriana Lastra told to her that it's sad when you become irrelevant.

Yes 166 (PSOE, UP, PNV, MP, Compromis, BNG, NC, TE)
No 165 (PP, VOX, Cs, JxCAT, CUP, UPN, CC, PRC, Foro)
Abstain 18 (ERC, EH Bildu)

There's one vote missingin the ''yes'' camp, a deputy from Barcelona (ECP) is ill and could not attend nor register her telematic vote in time.

Second vote on Tuesday. Sánchez will pass if he retains his narrow simple majority






Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on January 05, 2020, 10:52:11 AM
UP members in next cabinet, providing second vote is successful

Pablo Iglesias (41): Deputy PM
Irene Montero (31): Equality
Yolanda Díaz (Galicia en Común, aged 41): Labour
Manuel Castells (proposed by ECP,  aged 77): Universities
Alberto Garzón (IU leader, aged 34): Consumer Affairs, including the regulation of gambling


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Skye on January 05, 2020, 12:59:03 PM
So it's very likely that Sánchez will win that vote, right? No last minute changes?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on January 05, 2020, 02:42:53 PM
So it's very likely that Sánchez will win that vote, right? No last minute changes?

It's likely, but people in the left is crossing fingers. There's always the possibility that someone's falling ill or missing a train or a plane. The majority is so narrow that every vote counts

Tomás Guitarte, the Teruel Existe member, states there's no way he's gonna switch sides

https://elpais.com/politica/2020/01/05/actualidad/1578241358_989427.html

On the other hand, it's unlikely that Ana Oramas changes her mind. Oramas might be expelled from CC and her decision might create a rift within Canarian regionalists. She represents the most conservative factiion based on Tenerife island. As I said before, she's very vocal against Podemos due to alleged chavista links. The influence of former Canarian emigrants returned from Venezuela is strong in some insular branches of CC. Also, Oramas and the conservatives within CC are not apparently in favour of a reunification with NC. Oramas won't resign her seat in case of being expelled.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Skye on January 05, 2020, 03:12:08 PM
As I said before, she's very vocal against Podemos due to alleged chavista links. The influence of former Canarian emigrants returned from Venezuela is strong in some insular branches of CC.

Keep in mind it's not just old emigrants returned from Venezuela, but young Venezuelans who migrated to Spain and hold Spanish citizenship. But yeah, I'd dare to say most Venezuelan expats in Spain that pay just a modicum of attention to politics don't have a positive image of Podemos, to say the least.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on January 05, 2020, 03:22:59 PM
Fun fact: the other Canarian nationalist in Congress (Pedro Quevedo, NCa), who is voting Yes on Sanchez, was born in nowhere other than Caracas, Venezuela :P

He came to Spain as a child in the early 1960s though; well before Chavismo was a thing, but still a fun statistic nontheless.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on January 05, 2020, 04:25:29 PM
As I said before, she's very vocal against Podemos due to alleged chavista links. The influence of former Canarian emigrants returned from Venezuela is strong in some insular branches of CC.

Keep in mind it's not just old emigrants returned from Venezuela, but young Venezuelans who migrated to Spain and hold Spanish citizenship. But yeah, I'd dare to say most Venezuelan expats in Spain that pay just a modicum of attention to politics don't have a positive image of Podemos, to say the least.

I know most Venezuelan expats are anti- Chavez and don't have a good opinion of Podemos, despite Pablo Iglesias and others began to take distance from the post-Chávez disaster some time ago. In any case, I was referring to the CC membership in Santa Cruz de Tenerife province. Curious fact: it surfaced the not so young Juan Guaido's father was a taxi driver in Tenerife (maybe he's still there). Anyway, the Canary Islands have close ties to Venezuela due to historical emigration. CC has a presence in the country via Canarian emigrants and their offspring (they can vote in our elections if they hold Spanish citizenship). In the case of Ana Oramas, she's from a family of landowners in Tenerife. I ignore if she has some relatives in Venezuela, as nearly everybody in her province. Another fun fact: the grandmother of the Podemos deputy Alberto Rodríguez (an engineer notorious because of his rastaman appearance, curently secretary for organization) was a humble seamstress who made seam works for the Oramas' family and other wealthy families in the beautiful historical town of La Laguna.

There were emigrants from Las Palmas province too (case of Quevedo s family), but their influence is not so strong. Personally I have met several Venezuelans from both sides (a majority here is anti-Chávez, but there are exceptions)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Skye on January 05, 2020, 04:54:37 PM
As I said before, she's very vocal against Podemos due to alleged chavista links. The influence of former Canarian emigrants returned from Venezuela is strong in some insular branches of CC.

Keep in mind it's not just old emigrants returned from Venezuela, but young Venezuelans who migrated to Spain and hold Spanish citizenship. But yeah, I'd dare to say most Venezuelan expats in Spain that pay just a modicum of attention to politics don't have a positive image of Podemos, to say the least.

I know most Venezuelan expats are anti- Chavez and don't have a good opinion of Podemos, despite Pablo Iglesias and others began to take distance from the post-Chávez disaster some time ago. In any case, I was referring to the CC membership in Santa Cruz de Tenerife province. Curious fact: it surfaced the not so young Juan Guaido's father was a taxi driver in Tenerife (maybe he's still there). Anyway, the Canary Islands have close ties to Venezuela due to historical emigration. CC has a presence in the country via Canarian emigrants and their offspring (they can vote in our elections if they hold Spanish citizenship). In the case of Ana Oramas, she's from a family of landowners in Tenerife. I ignore if she has some relatives in Venezuela, as nearly everybody in her province. Another fun fact: the grandmother of the Podemos deputy Alberto Rodríguez (an engineer notorious because of his rastaman appearance, curently secretary for organization) was a humble seamstress who made seam works for the Oramas' family and other wealthy families  elin La Laguna.

There were emigrants from Las Palmas province too (case of Quevedo s family), but their influence is not so strong. Personally I have met several Venezuelans from both sides (a majority here is anti-Chávez, but there are exceptions)


 P
to

I don't want to derail this thread further, but yes, ties to the Canary Islands in Venezuela are common. My father told me my great-grandmother was from there, but good luck trying to prove that now :P

I imagine now that the migration rate has exploded, it's more feasible that you meet pro-Chávez Venezuelans. A few years ago, when primarily wealthier folks migrated, that probably would have been more difficult. In the 2012 election, just before he died, Chávez received just under 7% of the vote from Venezuelans living in the Canary Islands: http://www.cne.gob.ve/resultado_presidencial_2012/r/2/reg_992603.html

Granted, turnout was low (I imagine it's because the only voting center for people in the region is in Tenerife so people from the other islands had to travel there to vote), plus there is the fact that there are few Venezuelans registered to vote abroad, not in minor part because chavismo likes to make it difficult for folks like us to vote.

To tie this to the thread, don't think us Venezuelans abroad are right wingers just because most of us hate Chávez and Maduro with a passion. I know for a fact some of my friends here are quite happy with the PSOE winning, even if they probably aren't exactly thrilled with the Podemos deal. After all, Venezuelan politics is vastly dominated by leftist parties. That said, many, if not most, will cringe at the mere prospect of having people with a history of praising chavismo in the government, and will vote accordingly; which in Spain, clearly means voting for the right wing parties.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: warandwar on January 05, 2020, 04:59:54 PM
UP members in next cabinet, providing second vote is successful

Pablo Iglesias (41): Deputy PM
Irene Montero (31): Equality
Yolanda Díaz (Galicia en Común, aged 41): Labour
Manuel Castells (proposed by ECP,  aged 77): Universities
Alberto Garzón (IU leader, aged 34): Consumer Affairs, including the regulation of gambling
That's *the* Manuel Castells, right? Very influential scholar, love his work.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on January 05, 2020, 06:00:27 PM
As I said before, she's very vocal against Podemos due to alleged chavista links. The influence of former Canarian emigrants returned from Venezuela is strong in some insular branches of CC.

Keep in mind it's not just old emigrants returned from Venezuela, but young Venezuelans who migrated to Spain and hold Spanish citizenship. But yeah, I'd dare to say most Venezuelan expats in Spain that pay just a modicum of attention to politics don't have a positive image of Podemos, to say the least.

I know most Venezuelan expats are anti- Chavez and don't have a good opinion of Podemos, despite Pablo Iglesias and others began to take distance from the post-Chávez disaster some time ago. In any case, I was referring to the CC membership in Santa Cruz de Tenerife province. Curious fact: it surfaced the not so young Juan Guaido's father was a taxi driver in Tenerife (maybe he's still there). Anyway, the Canary Islands have close ties to Venezuela due to historical emigration. CC has a presence in the country via Canarian emigrants and their offspring (they can vote in our elections if they hold Spanish citizenship). In the case of Ana Oramas, she's from a family of landowners in Tenerife. I ignore if she has some relatives in Venezuela, as nearly everybody in her province. Another fun fact: the grandmother of the Podemos deputy Alberto Rodríguez (an engineer notorious because of his rastaman appearance, curently secretary for organization) was a humble seamstress who made seam works for the Oramas' family and other wealthy families  elin La Laguna.

There were emigrants from Las Palmas province too (case of Quevedo s family), but their influence is not so strong. Personally I have met several Venezuelans from both sides (a majority here is anti-Chávez, but there are exceptions)

I don't want to derail this thread further, but yes, ties to the Canary Islands in Venezuela are common. My father told me my great-grandmother was from there, but good luck trying to prove that now :P

I imagine now that the migration rate has exploded, it's more feasible that you meet pro-Chávez Venezuelans. A few years ago, when primarily wealthier folks migrated, that probably would have been more difficult. In the 2012 election, just before he died, Chávez received just under 7% of the vote from Venezuelans living in the Canary Islands: http://www.cne.gob.ve/resultado_presidencial_2012/r/2/reg_992603.html

Granted, turnout was low (I imagine it's because the only voting center for people in the region is in Tenerife so people from the other islands had to travel there to vote), plus there is the fact that there are few Venezuelans registered to vote abroad, not in minor part because chavismo likes to make it difficult for folks like us to vote.

To tie this to the thread, don't think us Venezuelans abroad are right wingers just because most of us hate Chávez and Maduro with a passion. I know for a fact some of my friends here are quite happy with the PSOE winning, even if they probably aren't exactly thrilled with the Podemos deal. After all, Venezuelan politics is vastly dominated by leftist parties. That said, many, if not most, will cringe at the mere prospect of having people with a history of praising chavismo in the government, and will vote accordingly; which in Spain, clearly means voting for the right wing parties.

To be honest, the two or three Chavistas from Venezuela that I that I have met here were old men. A vast majority of Venezuelans I've seen here, old and young, are anti-Chávez.

It's possible to discuss about Venezuela here in relation to Spanish politics, because it's used as a weapon in our political battles. The Spanish Right in particular is very vocal against Maduro. The mainstream leftist parties don't support Maduro and even Podemos leadership takes some distance from him. Pedro Sánchez went further and recognized Guaido, move criticized by Podemos. I think the main difference is that the left favours dialogue and mediation in Venezuela, while the right supports a more aggresive policy in line with US administration. The attempts of mediation made by former socialist PM Zapatero in Venezuela were heavily criticized by the right.

My personal stance on the Venezuelan crisis is not far from my stance on the Catalan conflict. Third way. Equidistante. Let's sit and talk about the weather ;)

Anyway my father's family is,from La Palma and I had some distant relative in Venezuela whom I never met

UP members in next cabinet, providing second vote is successful

Pablo Iglesias (41): Deputy PM
Irene Montero (31): Equality
Yolanda Díaz (Galicia en Común, aged 41): Labour
Manuel Castells (proposed by ECP,  aged 77): Universities
Alberto Garzón (IU leader, aged 34): Consumer Affairs, including the regulation of gambling
That's *the* Manuel Castells, right? Very influential scholar, love his work.

Sociologist and economist. Berkeley


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan on January 06, 2020, 07:46:20 AM
So, with Garzón as potential minister I would like to ask: was there at any point in the past PCE minister in the government? Maybe in the 30s?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on January 06, 2020, 08:40:56 AM
So, with Garzón as potential minister I would like to ask: was there at any point in the past PCE minister in the government? Maybe in the 30s?

Yeah you have to go back to September 1936 to find PCE ministers again; after the cabinte reshuffle on the Republican government because of the start of the civil war.

But Garzon will be the first PCE minister during peace time I guess


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on January 06, 2020, 09:29:22 AM
So, with Garzón as potential minister I would like to ask: was there at any point in the past PCE minister in the government? Maybe in the 30s?

Good question. There were PCE ministers in the war cabinets between 1936 and 1939

Vicente Uribe (Agriculture) and Jesús Hernández Tomás (Education and Fine Arts) were appointed ministers in the Largo Caballero cabinet, in September 1936

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicente_Uribe

Quote
After the start of the Spanish Civil War Uribe was appointed Minister of Agriculture in the cabinet of Francisco Largo Caballero on 5 September 1936. For tactical reasons the communists supported small businessmen and peasants (...)

On 15 May 1937 Uribe and Hernández caused the collapse of Largo Caballero's government. The trigger was a disagreement in a cabinet meeting over the May Days violence in Barcelona, which the communists blamed on the Anarchist CNT and FAI and the dissident communist POUM.[13] They demanded that the POUM be banned and its leaders arrested as "fascists".[14] Largo Caballero refused to act, and most of the ministers walked out of the meeting.[13] On 17 May 1937 Manuel Azaña dismissed Largo and named Juan Negrín Prime Minister of Spain.[15] Negrín's government included the socialists Indalecio Prieto (War, Navy and Air) and Julián Zugazagoitia (Interior), the communists Hernández Tomás (Education) and Uribe (Agriculture), the Republicans José Giral (Foreign Affairs) and Bernardo Giner de los Ríos (Public Works), the Basque Manuel de Irujo (Justice) and the Catalan Nationalist Jaume Aiguader (Labor).[16] The Higher War Council was reorganized and consisted of Negrín, Giral, Uribe and Prieto.

n the second Negrín cabinet, formed on 5 April 1938, Uribe was the only communist representative.[ According to (Palmiro) Togliatti, the tactic of withdrawing from the government was to "convince English and French public opinion that the Communists are not interested in the conquest of power, not even in Spain, where we could do so with comparative ease. ... In this way, we shall strengthen Anglo-French ties with the Soviets. If Hitler should decide on war he will have to wage it against the USSR and the Western democracies.[19] Uribe remained Minister of Agriculture until 1 February 1939.

During the Second Republic the PCE was a small party with little support (it won a single seat in 1933 elections). The PCE was a member party of the Popular Front in 1936, winning 13 seats in parliament. With the outbreak of the Civil War, the party's popularity and membership rocketed due to the fact that the USSR was the only effective ally of the republican government (France and UK betrayed Spain in that conflict) and the prestige of the communist combat units. After the war, during Franco's dictatorship,  the Communist Party was the most organized clandestine opposition force.

Regarding Manuel Castells, he's very close to Ada Colau (the Barcelona Mayor). I think he's tecnically an idependent proposed by En Comú Podem. His curriculum as a scholar is impressive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Castells

Quote
Manuel Castells Oliván (born 9 February 1942) is a Spanish sociologist especially associated with research on the information society, communication and globalization.

The 2000–2014 research survey of the Social Sciences Citation Index ranks him as the world's fifth most-cited social science scholar, and the foremost-cited communication scholar.

He was awarded the 2012 Holberg Prize, for having "shaped our understanding of the political dynamics of urban and global economies in the network society." In 2013 he was awarded the Balzan Prize for Sociology.

"Spain’s Socialist Party on high alert ahead of tight investiture vote"

https://elpais.com/elpais/2020/01/06/inenglish/1578298498_582670.html

Quote
A day after Spain’s caretaker Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez lost the first round of a congressional vote to get confirmed in office, alarm bells have gone off in the Socialist Party (PSOE) ahead of a second vote that is expected to be very tight..



  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on January 07, 2020, 05:24:19 AM
The closest investiture vote of Spain's democracy

https://elpais.com/elpais/2020/01/07/inenglish/1578384836_555446.html

Quote
Spain is in for a congressional cliffhanger today, as lawmakers assemble for the second round of the investiture vote to confirm the caretaker prime minister, Pedro Sánchez of the Socialist Party (PSOE), in his post.

 Never before in the history of Spanish democracy have the margins been so tight: Sánchez is expected to win by a simple majority of just two more “yes” than “no” votes. His Socialist predecessor José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero was confirmed in office by a lead of 11 votes in 2008, and in 1989 Felipe González won by 12 votes. 

 If Sánchez passes the investiture, he will head the first coalition government since the Second Republic


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: bigic on January 07, 2020, 08:39:32 AM
Sanchez has passed the investiture vote by the expected margin.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on January 07, 2020, 01:37:51 PM
Pedro Sánchez has succeed at last and Spain gets a new PM. However, given the arithmetic in Congress and the aggressiveness of opposition, he is going to face problems from the start

https://elpais.com/elpais/2020/01/07/inenglish/1578410052_201884.html

Quote
His term in office is likely to come under all kinds of threats, right from the first days. The two-part investiture debate that took place over the weekend and concluded today has only confirmed fears of a highly charged atmosphere in Spain’s lower house of parliament going forward.

Many analysts point that we are at the beginning of a new era of extreme polarization, with the opposition parties challenging the legitimacy of the government and allegations of treason. Likewise the ERC folks are risking being branded traitors by the most radical elements of the independence movement. There is an abyss between the PSOE and ERC on the territorial question, but the horror of the worst version of Spanish nationalism unites them. The foundations of the new coalition government are very fragile, as well the unborn negotiation to find a way out from the Catalan labyrinth. All the players involved will need loads of luck and political intelligence.

Elections in basque Country and Galicia are scheduled in 2020, as well a snap election in Catalonia is likely.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: seb_pard on January 07, 2020, 02:38:47 PM
Pedro Sánchez has succeed at last and Spain gets a new PM. However, given the arithmetic in Congress and the aggressiveness of opposition, he is going to face problems from the start

https://elpais.com/elpais/2020/01/07/inenglish/1578410052_201884.html

Quote
His term in office is likely to come under all kinds of threats, right from the first days. The two-part investiture debate that took place over the weekend and concluded today has only confirmed fears of a highly charged atmosphere in Spain’s lower house of parliament going forward.

Many analysts point that we are at the beginning of a new era of extreme polarization, with the opposition parties challenging the legitimacy of the government and allegations of treason. Likewise the ERC folks are risking being branded traitors by the most radical elements of the independence movement. There is an abyss between the PSOE and ERC on the territorial question, but the horror of the worst version of Spanish nationalism unites them. The foundations of the new coalition government are very fragile, as well the unborn negotiation to find a way out from the Catalan labyrinth. All the players involved will need loads of luck and political intelligence.

Elections in basque Country and Galicia are scheduled in 2020, as well a snap election in Catalonia is likely.
Well, elections in Euskadi and Galicia are good news for the PSOE (and the coalition). The right wing presence in the basque country is bleeding. And in the case of Galicia, this community is one of the few that the PP's move to the right decreased the party's support without benefiting Cs nor Vox.

It would be worse for the government in communities like Extremadura/Asturias.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: brucejoel99 on January 07, 2020, 03:05:27 PM
So, with Garzón as potential minister I would like to ask: was there at any point in the past PCE minister in the government? Maybe in the 30s?

Yeah you have to go back to September 1936 to find PCE ministers again; after the cabinte reshuffle on the Republican government because of the start of the civil war.

But Garzon will be the first PCE minister during peace time I guess

Funnily enough, this is the most left-wing government that Spain has seen since 1936, & the most right-wing opposition that Spain has seen since (you guessed it) 1936.

Let's reeeeeally hope that history doesn't repeat itself any further.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: mileslunn on January 09, 2020, 01:15:00 AM
When will the budget be brought down as I figure the sooner that is done better the chances of it passing are.  If that fails then doesn't that mean more elections?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on January 09, 2020, 08:36:33 AM
Pedro Sánchez is completing a renovation of the second level of government. The full composition of his cabinet will be known next week. Today it was revealed that Environment minister Teresa Ribera will be upgraded to Deputy PM, focused on Ecologic Transition and Demographic Challenge. There will be four Deputy PMs in the government: Carmen Calvo (taking on Historical Memory and Secularism), Pablo Iglesias (Social Rights and 2030 Agenda), Nadia Calviño (Economy and Digital Transformation) and the aforementioned Ribera.

María Jesús Montero will continue as Finance minister and could be the new government spokeswoman.

The ministers proposed by UP (Irene Montero, Yolanda Díaz, Manuel Castells and Alberto Garzón) have been confirmed.

By the way, there will be two communists in the government. The next Labor minister Yolanda Diaz is also a PCE member.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Investiture on January 4, 5 and 7, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on January 13, 2020, 09:06:54 PM
Spain's new cabinet sworn yesterday

https://elpais.com/elpais/2020/01/13/inenglish/1578924634_936158.html

Quote
The four deputy prime ministers and 18 ministers in the new government of Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez were sworn in today before Spain’s King Felipe VI at the Zarzuela Palace. The monarch congratulated the lawmakers and wished them luck. The first Cabinet meeting is due to take place on Tuesday.

Composition of the 'Sánchez II Government (Pedro 2.0)'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1nchez_II_Government

Prime Minister: Pedro Sánchez (PSOE)
    
First Deputy Prime Minister - Minister of the Presidency, Relations with the Cortes and Democratic Memory: Carmen Calvo (PSOE)
   
Second Deputy Prime Minister - Minister of Social Rights and 2030 Agenda: Pablo Iglesias (Podemos)   

Third Deputy Prime Minister - Minister of Economic Affairs and Digital Transformation: Nadia Calviño (Independent)

Fourth Deputy Prime Minister - Minister for the Ecological Transition and Demographic Challenge: Teresa Ribera (PSOE)   

Minister of Foreign Affairs, European Union and Cooperation: Arancha González Laya (Independent)    

Minister of Justice: Juan Carlos Campo (Independent)

Minister of Defence : Margarita Robles (Independent)

Minister of Finance - Spokesperson of the Government: María Jesús Montero (PSOE)    

Minister of the Interior: Fernando Grande-Marlaska (Independent)

Minister of Transports, Mobility and Urban Agenda: José Luis Ábalos (PSOE)

Minister of Education and Vocational Training:n: Isabel Celaá (PSOE)
   
Minister of Labour and Social Economy: Yolanda Díaz (IU)
   
Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism : Reyes Maroto (PSOE)    
   
Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food: Luis Planas (PSOE)

Minister of Territorial Policy and Civil Service: Carolina Darias (PSOE)

Minister of Culture and Sports: José Manuel Rodríguez Uribes (PSOE)
   
Minister of Health: Salvador Illa (PSC)
   
Minister of Science and Innovation :Pedro Duque (Independent)

Minister of Equality: Irene Montero (Podemos)
    
Minister of Consumer Affairs:    Alberto Garzón (IU)

Minister of Inclusion, Social Security and Migration: José Luis Escrivá (Independent)

Minister of Universities: Manuel Castells (Independent, proposed by En Comú Podem)    

All independents except Manuel Castells are personal picks made by Pedro Sánchez. Many of them have a technocratic profile (Nadia Calvinño, Arancha onzález Laya, José Luis Escrivá).


A controversial appointment

Quote
Meanwhile, there was controversy today among the political opposition in reaction to news that Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez had proposed Dolores Delgado as the new attorney general. Delgado was appointed by Sánchez as justice minister in June 2018.

Since Spain returned to democracy in the late 1970s, there has only been one other occasion when a minister has become attorney general, and that was back in 1986 under PSOE Prime Minister Felipe González.

Delgado arrived in government as an independent – judges and prosecutors are barred from joining political parties under Spanish law – but in recent months she has consolidated her political role thanks to harsh clashes with the opposition and she has also campaigned for the PSOE. She was voted in as a deputy at the last elections. 

Vox stages marches against "traitor" Pedro Sánchez

https://elpais.com/elpais/2020/01/13/inenglish/1578905060_772427.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Apocalypse Now, 2020: PSOE-UP cabinet sworn)
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on January 13, 2020, 09:49:28 PM
Well good job Sanchez for wasting 9 months and making his government more precarious than it could have been under the previous election results. Now that that exercise in pointlessness is complete, maybe he can get around to actually governing for a while (not that he'll last long).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Apocalypse Now, 2020: PSOE-UP cabinet sworn)
Post by: mileslunn on January 13, 2020, 11:50:31 PM
How likely is it that the budget passes?  With narrow numbers I think there is still a risk it fails which I believe would trigger another election.  If it passes my understanding is Sanchez is safe until next year unless there is a standalone non-confidence.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Apocalypse Now, 2020: PSOE-UP cabinet sworn)
Post by: CumbrianLefty on January 14, 2020, 06:12:53 AM
Well good job Sanchez for wasting 9 months and making his government more precarious than it could have been under the previous election results. Now that that exercise in pointlessness is complete, maybe he can get around to actually governing for a while (not that he'll last long).

And giving a huge leg up to the far right in the process. Apart from that, great job.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Apocalypse Now, 2020: PSOE-UP cabinet sworn)
Post by: Velasco on January 15, 2020, 03:50:29 PM
Well good job Sanchez for wasting 9 months and making his government more precarious than it could have been under the previous election results. Now that that exercise in pointlessness is complete, maybe he can get around to actually governing for a while (not that he'll last long).

The repetition of elections was pointless and a huge tactical fiasco. Said this, don't understimate Sánchez. He's a hardened survivor, the embodiment of resilience. Personally I'm fed up with our political battles, but I guess they can be fascinating for informed outsiders. Horror is my motivation right now. We wil be much better under the 'Red Leviathan', so I hope Sánchez endures for a while (providing that ERC stays in a pragmatic line, in the midst of the Catalan blender, allowing to pass a budget). Fatalism is one of the greatest malaises of contemporary societies and I refuse to fall, at least not straightaway.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Apocalypse Now, 2020: PSOE-UP cabinet sworn)
Post by: xelas81 on January 17, 2020, 05:33:46 PM
Any updates on what is Mas Pais doing?
Is their goal to overtake Podemos and then PSOE?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Apocalypse Now, 2020: PSOE-UP cabinet sworn)
Post by: mileslunn on January 17, 2020, 05:43:50 PM
When is the budget supposed to come down?  Any chance it might trigger another election.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Apocalypse Now, 2020: The Red Leviathan)
Post by: Velasco on January 20, 2020, 07:40:04 PM
Vox is on 'cultural battle' mode. Pablo Casado buys the parental veto'

https://elpais.com/elpais/2020/01/20/inenglish/1579513966_679777.html

Quote
A policy from the far-right Spanish political party Vox is causing heated debate over education and the rights of children. Dubbed by Vox as the “parental pin,” the policy gives parents the right to stop their children from attending complementary workshops organized during school hours. The measure means that schools will need to ask for parents’ permission to give “talks, workshops or activities with an ideological or moral leaning against their convictions,” according to the text of policy. This includes talks on sex education and LGBTQ+ rights.  

A couple of personal observations

1) The parents are not the owners of their sons or daughters. In order to illustrate my point of view, I'll resort to a poem by the Lebanese Khalil Gibran entitled 'On Children'

     Your children are not your children.
     They are the sons and daughters of Life’s longing for itself.
     They come through you but not from you,
     And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

     You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
     For they have their own thoughts.
     You may house their bodies but not their souls,
     For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you
     cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
     You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them
     like you.


 2) This is an obvious attack against our public education system

In other news, our government will declare climate emergency tomorrow. So Bolivarian...



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Apocalypse Now, 2020: The Red Leviathan)
Post by: Velasco on January 23, 2020, 02:35:20 AM
Pedro Sánchez announced a meeting with Catalan premier Quim Torra next month and promised to have a new budget passed by summer

https://elpais.com/elpais/2020/01/21/inenglish/1579598106_545045.html

Quote
Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez will meet with Catalan premier Quim Torra the first week of February in Barcelona to discuss issues relating to Catalonia. The meeting is part of the agreement the leader of the Socialist Party (PSOE) made with the separatist Catalan Republican Left (ERC) in order to ensure he could be sworn back into office by Congress. The ERC agreed to abstain from Sánchez’s investiture bid on the condition that the PSOE commit to negotiations about the political situation in Catalonia and the future of the region

Also, the government is planning a reform of the criminal code. The crimes of rebellion and sedition could be modified, with the latter being punished by shorter prison sentences. Such reform is in an embryonic phase and will concern a broader range of crimes. In case of being implemented and the crime of sedition is modified, Oriol Junqueras and the other jailed Catalan politicians could be released earlier. It's worth noting that the charge of sedition has no equivalent in the legislation of most European countries. There are voices within the judiciary in favour of reforming both crimes (in the case of rebellion, not to reduce prison sentences but to adapt it to present times). The rightwing opposition claims the reform would be "a covert pardon"

Labour minister Yolanda Diaz negotiated a first increase of the minimum wage with representatives from employers and trade unions-

The government declared the state of climate emergency on Tuesday and committed to submit a draft law on Climate Change within 100 days


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Apocalypse Now, 2020: The Red Leviathan)
Post by: mileslunn on January 23, 2020, 01:21:44 PM
Pedro Sánchez announced a meeting with Catalan premier Quim Torra next month and promised to have a new budget passed by summer

https://elpais.com/elpais/2020/01/21/inenglish/1579598106_545045.html

Quote
Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez will meet with Catalan premier Quim Torra the first week of February in Barcelona to discuss issues relating to Catalonia. The meeting is part of the agreement the leader of the Socialist Party (PSOE) made with the separatist Catalan Republican Left (ERC) in order to ensure he could be sworn back into office by Congress. The ERC agreed to abstain from Sánchez’s investiture bid on the condition that the PSOE commit to negotiations about the political situation in Catalonia and the future of the region

Also, the government is planning a reform of the criminal code. The crimes of rebellion and sedition could be modified, with the latter being punished by shorter prison sentences. Such reform is in an embryonic phase and will concern a broader range of crimes. In case of being implemented and the crime of sedition is modified, Oriol Junqueras and the other jailed Catalan politicians could be released earlier. It's worth noting that the charge of sedition has no equivalent in the legislation of most European countries. There are voices within the judiciary in favour of reforming both crimes (in the case of rebellion, not to reduce prison sentences but to adapt it to present times). The rightwing opposition claims the reform would be "a covert pardon"

Labour minister Yolanda Diaz negotiated a first increase of the minimum wage with representatives from employers and trade unions-

The government declared the state of climate emergency on Tuesday and committed to submit a draft law on Climate Change within 100 days

When does the budget come down?  Any chance government falls or will it likely pass?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Apocalypse Now, 2020: The Red Leviathan)
Post by: Velasco on January 23, 2020, 02:01:11 PM
When does the budget come down?  Any chance government falls or will it likely pass?

Read the news I linked before

Quote
The negotiations are also key to ensuring that the PSOE and anti-austerity Unidas Podemos coalition is able to pass a new budget. The government, which lacks an absolute majority in Spain’s lower house of parliament, needs the ERC to abstain from the vote in order to push through its financial plans in Congress. But without talks, “there will be no political term,” warned ERC congressional spokesman Gabriel Rufián during the investiture debate to swear in Sánchez. The prime minister’s earlier failure to secure approval for his 2019 budget blueprint led to early elections in April of last year, followed by a repeat vote of November. The prime minister, however, said he is confident that he can have a new budget approved ''before the end of summer” in September

It depends on the progress of negotiations and on ERC's willingness, given that party holds the key with the current composition of parliament. I can't tell how likely is that the government falls, because  the bilateral commission between governments has not yet begun to work.

ERC and PNV would be willing to negotiate the reform of the criminal code in Congress, including lowering sedition sentences and possible changes on the crimes of rebellion and sexual assault

https://elpais.com/elpais/2020/01/23/inenglish/1579776759_701357.html

Quote
Spain’s coalition government is planning on reforming the country’s criminal code to lower the sentence for sedition, a crime that came into the spotlight following last year’s Supreme Court ruling on the Catalan separatist leaders involved with the 2017 breakaway bid in the northeastern region. Spain’s top court found nine of the defendants guilty of offenses including sedition and handed down lengthy prison sentences, sparking mass protests and disturbances in Catalonia.  

Personally I think the reform is alright, but it has been poorly communicated by Sánchez

Otoh, UP scored a point with the negotiation of the minimum wage rise conducted by Yolanda Diaz and Pablo Iglesias




Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Apocalypse Now, 2020: The Red Leviathan)
Post by: mileslunn on January 23, 2020, 04:47:05 PM
Is ERC likely to abstain on budget or could they vote it down triggering a fall election?  Also would budget apply retroactively or would it only kick in for 2021 if passed.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Apocalypse Now, 2020: The Red Leviathan)
Post by: Velasco on January 23, 2020, 06:27:24 PM
Is ERC likely to abstain on budget or could they vote it down triggering a fall election?  Also would budget apply retroactively or would it only kick in for 2021 if passed.

The political situation in Catalonia is too complicated to make predictions. ERC will be under pressure from the inside and the outside, in order to support the government or let it fall. On the one hand, there is a fierce competition within the Catalan independence movement for hegemony (ERC vs JxCAt, Junqueras vs Puigdemont). Since the imprisonment of Oriol Junqueras after the events in autumn 2017, ERC is supporting pragmatic stances and discarding unilateral path to ondependence. On the contrary, the faction supporting Puigdemont (who lives in Belgium, fugitive from justice) is suporting more radical stances and is seconded by civil associations (ANC, Omnium) and the far-left CUP. All 'intransigent' sectors, the radicalized grassroots or the buzz in social networks are elements that push ERC against the deal. Also, there are certain maneuvres from within the 'deep state' or the judiciary that try to make a PSOE-ERC deal fail (see the decision of the Electoral Court disqualifying Quim Torra just before the investiture of Sánchez). Divisions within the governing coalition in Catalonia (JxCAT-ERC), the lack of a majority to pass a budget and the legal situation of premier Torra may trigger new elections and perhaps a new balance of power. On the other hand, Sánchez has cards to play in order to convince ERC (either the bilateral commission or the reform of the penal code). The scenario is highly unpredictable.

I don't know how a budget can be applied retroactively, tbh. I guess budget extension is in force until the new budget is passed, and so on... I know the government is planning to submit the draft in March, in order to have it passed before September


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Apocalypse Now, 2020: The Red Leviathan)
Post by: Velasco on January 26, 2020, 12:16:58 AM
Little political storm this week concerning Venezuela. On the one hand, there has been controversy over the visit of opposition leader and "president in charge" Juan Guaidó. Pedro Sánchez decided not holding a meeting with Guaidó, whom met with Foreign Affairs minister instead. Obviously this has raised harsh criticism from the opposition, whose leader Pablo Casado held a brief meeting with the Venezuelan leader. Guaidó was also greeted by local and regional authorities in Madrid (governed by a PP-Cs coalition) as well attended a demonstration of Venezuelan expats against Maduro. The decision of Sánchez also exposed a rift between former socialist PMs José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero and Felipe González, with the latter unconditionally aligning with the Venezuelan opposition and the former advocating a negotiation that leads to democratic elections. On the other hand, a brief meeting between Transport minister José Luis Äbalos and the Venezuelan vice-president Delcy Rodríguez at Madrid airport generated considerable buzz in the media, with allegations of "secret talks"

https://elpais.com/elpais/2020/01/24/inenglish/1579861959_005340.html

Quote
Opposition parties in Spain are calling on the transportation minister, José Luis Ábalos, to confirm whether or not he met in secret with the Venezuelan vice-president, Delcy Rodríguez, in the early hours of Monday morning at Madrid’s Adolfo Suárez-Barajas airport. European Union sanctions prevent Rodríguez from entering the bloc’s airspace.

According to a story published on Spanish news website Vozpopuli, Ábalos held a meeting with President Nicolás Maduro’s second-in-command inside a private plane owned by the company Sky Valet, taking advantage of a technical stop in Spain on the way to Turkey.

The story also stated that Rodríguez and six of her traveling companions, including her chief of staff, entered one of the VIP lounges in Barajas. Vozpopuli reported that Ábalos denied having met with the Venezuelan lawmaker.

Ábalos, of the Socialist Party (PSOE), has told EL PAÍS that he was at the airport on private business, to meet the Venezuelan tourism minister, Félix Plasencia, with whom he has been friends for several years and who was traveling on the same plane as the Venezuelan vice-president.

Plasencia, who is a Spanish citizen, according to the minister, arrived in Madrid as the head of the Venezuelan delegation attending the Fitur tourism fair, currently taking place in the Spanish capital.

Ábalos told EL PAÍS that he did not have any formal contact with the Venezuelan vice-president and that a meeting with her was not his intention when he traveled to the airport. He added that in recent months he has had a number of meetings with members of the Venezuelan opposition, including the acting president, Juan Guiadó

But by Friday afternoon, police sources were telling a different story. According to their version of events, Ábalos was called to the scene given Rodríguez’s insistence that she be allowed to disembark from the aircraft. The minister is alleged to have boarded the plane to convince her not to step onto Spanish soil, given that such an action would cause a diplomatic incident (...)


Yet another communication error made by Sánchez and Ábalos


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Apocalypse Now, 2020: The Red Leviathan)
Post by: Skye on January 26, 2020, 06:09:39 AM
Little political storm this week concerning Venezuela. On the one hand, there has been controversy over the visit of opposition leader and "president in charge" Juan Guaidó. Pedro Sánchez decided not holding a meeting with Guaidó, whom met with Foreign Affairs minister instead. Obviously this has raised harsh criticism from the opposition, whose leader Pablo Casado held a brief meeting with the Venezuelan leader. Guaidó was also greeted by local and regional authorities in Madrid (governed by a PP-Cs coalition) as well attended a demonstration of Venezuelan expats against Maduro. The decision of Sánchez also exposed a rift between former socialist PMs José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero and Felipe González, with the latter unconditionally aligning with the Venezuelan opposition and the former advocating a negotiation that leads to democratic elections. On the other hand, a brief meeting between Transport minister José Luis Äbalos and the Venezuelan vice-president Delcy Rodríguez at Madrid airport generated considerable buzz in the media, with allegations of "secret talks"

https://elpais.com/elpais/2020/01/24/inenglish/1579861959_005340.html

Quote
Opposition parties in Spain are calling on the transportation minister, José Luis Ábalos, to confirm whether or not he met in secret with the Venezuelan vice-president, Delcy Rodríguez, in the early hours of Monday morning at Madrid’s Adolfo Suárez-Barajas airport. European Union sanctions prevent Rodríguez from entering the bloc’s airspace.

According to a story published on Spanish news website Vozpopuli, Ábalos held a meeting with President Nicolás Maduro’s second-in-command inside a private plane owned by the company Sky Valet, taking advantage of a technical stop in Spain on the way to Turkey.

The story also stated that Rodríguez and six of her traveling companions, including her chief of staff, entered one of the VIP lounges in Barajas. Vozpopuli reported that Ábalos denied having met with the Venezuelan lawmaker.

Ábalos, of the Socialist Party (PSOE), has told EL PAÍS that he was at the airport on private business, to meet the Venezuelan tourism minister, Félix Plasencia, with whom he has been friends for several years and who was traveling on the same plane as the Venezuelan vice-president.

Plasencia, who is a Spanish citizen, according to the minister, arrived in Madrid as the head of the Venezuelan delegation attending the Fitur tourism fair, currently taking place in the Spanish capital.

Ábalos told EL PAÍS that he did not have any formal contact with the Venezuelan vice-president and that a meeting with her was not his intention when he traveled to the airport. He added that in recent months he has had a number of meetings with members of the Venezuelan opposition, including the acting president, Juan Guiadó

But by Friday afternoon, police sources were telling a different story. According to their version of events, Ábalos was called to the scene given Rodríguez’s insistence that she be allowed to disembark from the aircraft. The minister is alleged to have boarded the plane to convince her not to step onto Spanish soil, given that such an action would cause a diplomatic incident (...)


Yet another communication error made by Sánchez and Ábalos

Yes, Venezuelans in Spain, at least those who pay attention to politics, aren't happy with Sánchez. His decision makes little sense considering he recognized Guaidó as interim president last year, and Guaidó met with BoJo and Macron earlier this week. So it's hard not to see this as Sánchez just wanting to avoid internal conflict within his administration, or worse, ceding to pressure from Podemos (Pablo Iglesias said this week that Guaidó is no longer president of the Venezuelan National Assembly, so much for distancing themselves from chavismo, huh?).

And the situation with Ávalos was just the icing on the cake.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Apocalypse Now, 2020: The Red Leviathan)
Post by: Velasco on January 26, 2020, 11:11:29 AM





Yet another communication error made by Sánchez and Ábalos

Yes, Venezuelans in Spain, at least those who pay attention to politics, aren't happy with Sánchez. His decision makes little sense considering he recognized Guaidó as interim president last year, and Guaidó met with BoJo and Macron earlier this week. So it's hard not to see this as Sánchez just wanting to avoid internal conflict within his administration, or worse, ceding to pressure from Podemos (Pablo Iglesias said this week that Guaidó is no longer president of the Venezuelan National Assembly, so much for distancing themselves from chavismo, huh?).

And the situation with Ávalos was just the icing on the cake.
[/quote]

Venezuela is always marshy ground and it became apparent the coalition government doesn't know how to handle with it. The problem with Sánchez is his lack of consistency (it's not only he recognized Guaidó, he pushed the EU to recognize the interim president as well). I don't know if Sánchez is seeking another kind of approach to the Venezuelan crisis, but he made a mistake. A courtesy meeting with Guaidó would have been better. Regarding Iglesias, he referred earlier to Guaidó as ''a very prominent oppositon leader''. I think the description is consistent. But stating that  Guaidó is longer the president of the National Assembly is going too far and an obvious mistake, given the recent incidents in Caracas. I believe the police's version of the meeting between Ábalos and the Maduro's vice-president, as it makes more sense than conspiracy theories. My conclusion is that coalition governments need to manage the differences between partners. Also, it's very important to communicate effectively. Especially when you make decisions on problematic questions like Catalonia or Venezuela, because it's easy to find yourself walking on a minefield with the enemy shooting from the outside.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Apocalypse Now, 2020: The Red Leviathan)
Post by: Velasco on January 31, 2020, 01:50:08 AM
Catalan premier Quim Torra made a public statement on Wednesday, announcing the term is over and a fresh election will be called at some unspecified date. Torra has been disqualified by the Electoral Court and is no longer member of the Catalan parliament, ruling ratified by the Supreme Court. The legal situation of the premier created a conflict within the governing coalition. Torra (JxCAT) refused to resign his seat in parliament, denying the legitimacy of the Spanish courts. But the Speaker of the Parliament Roger Torrent (ERC) had no other choice but to abide the ruling that strips Torra from his seat, otherwise he could be indicted for disobedience. There were fruitless talks between the coalition partners, in order to rectify the situation, involving the 'exiled' Carles Puigdemont and Marta Rovira. Torra stated the elections will take place after the budget plan agreed with CatComú-Podem is passed by the parliament.

The Spanish government announced afterwards the bilateral talks with the Catalan government would be postponed until the elections take place, a statement deemed by ERC as a ""flagrant breach" of the investiture deal. Pedro Sánchez rectified after a meeting with ERC spokesman in Congress Gabriel Rufián. A new statement was issued:

https://english.elpais.com/politics/catalonia_independence/2020-01-30/prime-minister-puts-talks-with-catalan-premier-on-hold-until-after-elections.html

Quote
“The government hopes to be able to start the said dialogue once the Catalan people have spoken and a new parliament has been formed, as well as a government,” the statement from La Moncloa said. “As soon as the elections are held and there is a new government, we will start the dialogue.”


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Fresh Catalan elections, unconfirmed date )
Post by: windjammer on January 31, 2020, 07:15:24 AM
Likeliest future coalition?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Fresh Catalan elections, unconfirmed date )
Post by: Estrella on January 31, 2020, 07:54:00 AM
Prediction: A nightmare result for PSOE/PSC where they end up holding the balance of power between the right and the separatists. They obviously refuse to support either side, which leads to ERC, JxCat and CUP withdrawing support in Congress and yet another national election.

(Seriously though, how realistic is this scenario?)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Fresh Catalan elections, unconfirmed date )
Post by: bigic on January 31, 2020, 08:19:36 AM
JxCat doesn't support the government, and neither does CUP. The only Catalan separatist party that supports the government is ERC.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Fresh Catalan elections, unconfirmed date )
Post by: Velasco on January 31, 2020, 08:35:20 AM

Hard to tell. Actually there are two options:

1) Repetition of the separatist coaltion. It's the likeliest scenario. In my opinion. However, it matters who's the first to come. ERC won the 2019 general elections in Catalonia and is the clear favourite, but Puigdemont was the leading candidate in the EP elections. The battle for hegemony will be tough in the nationalist camp

2) Leftwing tripartite coalition netween ERC, PSC and the 'Comuns' (Podemos allies in Catalonia). It'd be good for the governability of Spain and the resolution of the Catalan conflict, but there's still acrimony between republicans and socialists. Less likely, imo.

3) On a side note, Ines Arrimadas stated willingness for a PP-Cs coalition. A sign of desperation.

Prediction: A nightmare result for PSOE/PSC where they end up holding the balance of power between the right and the separatists. They obviously refuse to support either side, which leads to ERC, JxCat and CUP withdrawing support in Congress and yet another national election.

(Seriously though, how realistic is this scenario?)

JxCAT and CUP are not supporting the PSOE-UP government in Congress. On the other hand, there are little chances for a 'constitutionalist' majority in Catalonia. Cs is struggling to survive. The ERC support in Congress is key. The main goal of the republicans is gaining the leadership of the Catalan government. Results and subsequent alliances will have consequences for the governability of Spain, but I can't tell which consequences.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Fresh Catalan elections, unconfirmed date )
Post by: mileslunn on January 31, 2020, 03:36:04 PM
How likely is this to trigger another national election and looking at numbers unless one side budges seems unlikely to have a viable coalition on either side there.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Fresh Catalan elections, unconfirmed date )
Post by: Velasco on January 31, 2020, 04:26:28 PM
How likely is this to trigger another national election and looking at numbers unless one side budges seems unlikely to have a viable coalition on either side there.

I don't have a clue. How do you expect an answer when elections in Catalonia have not been fixed yet? We only know the Catalan premier made a statement and said there will be a snap election. The only thing we know for sure is this pre-campaign scenario complicates the budget negotiations in Congress. It would have been better for the Sánchez government that Torra would have called immediately. Also, PSOE and ERC have an investiture deal conditioned to a negotiation table between central and regional governments. Sánchez and Torra will have a first meeting on Thursday next week, if I'm not wrong.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Fresh Catalan elections, unconfirmed date )
Post by: Velasco on February 01, 2020, 01:01:35 PM
For more details: "Catalan premier announces snap election amid dispute over role as deputy''

https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2020/01/29/inenglish/1580292062_280050.html

Quote
Catalan premier Quim Torra announced on Wednesday that there will be a snap election in the northeastern Spanish region once the regional budget is passed by parliament, a process that could take between two and three months.

Torra made the announcement during a surprise institutional statement, after the Catalan parliament earlier this week decided to support a judicial ruling stripping the premier of his seat in the chamber. This move has evidenced a rift in the governing coalition, which is made up of the separatist parties Together for Catalonia (JxCAT) and the Catalan Republican Left (ERC) (...)

“The term had no political future if unity cannot be maintained,” he said on Wednesday. “No government can function without unity. [...] We have to recover the path of unity, resume our shared struggles.”

  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Fresh Catalan elections, unconfirmed date )
Post by: Velasco on February 01, 2020, 11:34:00 PM
GESOP poll for El Periódico; ERC would come first in Catalan elections and could choose between JxCAT and PSC to govern (more likely the first option, with the outside support of the CUP; CatComú would gladly join a leftwing coalition with ERC and the PSC)

ERC 33-34 seats (22%)
JxCAT 29-30 (19%)
PSC 22-23 (16.9%)
Cs 15-17 (12.8%)
CatComú 11-12 (9.4%)
CUP 8-9 (6.6%)
VOX 6-7 (5.5%)
PP 5-6 (4.8%)

Acting Deputy Premier and ERC second-in-line Pere Aragonès states his organization's goal is that pro-independence parties cross the 50% threshold, in order to put pressure on the Spanish government in upcoming negotiations. He criticized both PSC and JxCAT. Socialists are criticized because  their refusal to support the regional budget plan doesn't help to solve the problems of the people and coalition partners because pounding your chest does not make you more nationalist. Aragonès claims his party is honest the only one committed to the progress of Catalonia and the separatist cause (''that's why people vote for us"). On a side note, ERC backed the budget plan 0f the Colau local government in Barcelona (BComú-PSC) in exchange for the support of Catalunya en Comú[/i] to the regional budget plan


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Fresh Catalan elections, unconfirmed date )
Post by: windjammer on February 02, 2020, 07:41:00 AM
I guess it is likely the pro independence get the majority of seats?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Fresh Catalan elections, unconfirmed date )
Post by: Velasco on February 02, 2020, 08:17:05 AM
I guess it is likely the pro independence get the majority of seats?

Yes, it s very likely pro-independence parties get again a majority of seats. It shouldn't be surprising, given the good results of Catalan nationalist parties in past year's elections. Turnout among pro-independence constituency is usually high. Another question is that they manage to get a majority of votes. They came close in last regional elections, getting 47.5% with a massive overall turnout, and a bit closer in 2019 EP elections with a lower turnout. Crossing the 50% threshold, a psychological barrier, is a strategic goal for ERC leadership. It's neither easy nor impossible.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Fresh Catalan elections, unconfirmed date )
Post by: Oryxslayer on February 02, 2020, 09:39:16 AM
I guess it is likely the pro independence get the majority of seats?

Yes,it's not hard for the  pro-indie parties to get a majority presently. The electoral system and the party divisions (more non-indie parties than indie) mean that the Indie parties easily sweep the rural parts of the province, locking out almost all of the non-indies. The non-indie parties divide their vote, denying themselves seats and allowing the larger nationalists parties to gain representation.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Fresh Catalan elections, unconfirmed date )
Post by: Velasco on February 02, 2020, 10:15:37 AM
I guess it is likely the pro independence get the majority of seats?

Yes,it's not hard for the  pro-indie parties to get a majority presently. The electoral system and the party divisions (more non-indie parties than indie) mean that the Indie parties easily sweep the rural parts of the province, locking out almost all of the non-indies. The non-indie parties divide their vote, denying themselves seats and allowing the larger nationalists parties to gain representation.

Regarding the division of non-indies it's possible that PP and Cs will run together in Catalonia and the Basque Country this year, providing that conservatives accept the Cs candidate Lorena Roldán in Catalonia. Inés Arrimadas has already proposed 'constitutionalist' coalitions in those regions and Galicia. Arrimadas is the de facto Cs leader in the interregnum period opened between the departure of Albert Rivera and the next party convention. However, PP rejects the coalition in Galicia. Pablo Casado and premier Alberto Núñez Feijóo deem it unnecessary, given that currently PP has a majority and Cs is a non-parliamentary force in the NW region.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Fresh Catalan elections, unconfirmed date )
Post by: Velasco on February 04, 2020, 09:49:04 AM
Yesterday inaugural session in Congress, with institutional speech by King Felipe.

https://english.elpais.com/news/2020-02-03/king-felipe-vi-addressing-parliament-spain-must-be-for-everyone.html


Quote
 Spain’s King Felipe VI on Monday presided the official opening of the new political term, addressing a Congress of Deputies partly occupied by the first coalition government since the 1930s, and where separatist lawmakers were conspicuously absent.    

Separatist parties (ERC. JxCAT, EH Bildu, CUP and BNG) refused to attend the session. As veteran journalist Iñaki Gabilondo says, the throne of the ''Citizen Borbón'' won't be jeopardized as long as separatists are the standard bearers of the republican cause. Ironically the main threat for the monarchy comes from the most passionate suporters in the Spanish Right. It's not dufficult to imagine that an institution canibalized by Vox or PP could alienate a majority of the population.

Metroscopia monthly survey (Publico)

PSOE 26.8%, PP 20.5%, VOX 15.3%, UP 13.3%, Cs 6.1%, MP 2.7%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Fresh Catalan elections, unconfirmed date )
Post by: PSOL on February 07, 2020, 03:10:20 PM
Looks like the new government has a lot of work to do (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/07/spain-abandoning-poor-despite-economic-recovery-un-envoy-philip-alston)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Fresh Catalan elections, unconfirmed date )
Post by: Velasco on February 08, 2020, 01:58:32 PM
Spanish PM Pedro Sánchez met with Catalan premier* Quim Torra a couple of days ago. It was better than I expected. Hopefully and with due caution, this might be the beginning of a new and more constructive phase of the Catalan crisis. Anyway ten years of deadlock and polarization won't end in tendays and there is a long way ahead. Inés Arrimadas deemed the meeting as a "stab in the back", while PP and Vox made harsh statements. However, a poll released yesterday by La Sexta TV channel says dialogue is supported by 83% in Catalonia and 57% in Spain as a whole.  Sánchez also met with Barcelona Mayor Ada Colau and they agreed to develop projects that might enhance the role of the city.

https://english.elpais.com/politics/catalonia_independence/2020-02-06/spanish-pm-meets-with-catalan-premier-ahead-of-talks-on-regions-future.html

Quote
Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez held a much-anticipated meeting with the Catalan regional premier Quim Torra today, as part of promised talks on the future of the northeastern Spanish region. The two politicians met at the seat of the premier in Catalonia, the Palau de la Generalitat, in the regional capital of Barcelona, and during their encounter Sánchez proposed that political dialogue starts this very month.

Catalonia has for years now been immersed in an independence drive, which peaked in 2017 when an illegal referendum on secession from Spain was held, followed by the passing of a unilateral declaration of independence by the Catalan parliament. Last year saw nine of the pro-independence politicians and civil association leaders jailed for their involvement in the events of that year, while the trial of four figures connected to the regional police force, the Mossos d’Esquadra, for their role in the same events is ongoing (...)

Looks like the new government has a lot of work to do (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/07/spain-abandoning-poor-despite-economic-recovery-un-envoy-philip-alston)

Indeed. The UN envoy visited some impoverihed places in Spain, but I think his report is largely based on the periodical reports made by Cáritas,  the Catholic Church's official organization in Spain for charity and social relief, instituted by the Spanish Episcopal Conference

Quote
“Spain is a country with a grand history, a global leader in some areas, and a cultural beacon,” he said in a preliminary report published on Friday.

“But Spain today needs to take a close look at itself in the mirror. What it will see is not what most Spaniards would wish for. The self-image of a close family-based society rooted in deeply shared values and social solidarity has been badly fractured by an economic crisis and the implementation of neoliberal policies. The local and familial safety nets that had been historically important continue to work for the well-off, but have been undermined for a large part of the population.” 

I couldn't agree more

 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Fresh Catalan elections, unconfirmed date )
Post by: Velasco on February 09, 2020, 11:00:48 AM
Catalan elections: GAD3 poll for La Vanguardia

ERC 37 seats (24.9%)
JxCAT 31 (19.8%)
PSC 27 (20.3%)
Cs 12 (8.5%)
CatComú 10 (8.8%)
PP 8 (6.7%)
CUP 6 (5.1%)
VOX 4 (4.4%)

Coalitions (majority: 68 seats)

ERC+JxCAT 68 seats
ERC+PSC+CatComú  74 seats
PSC+PP+Cs 47 seats

Vote share with a PP-Cs coalition ('Catalunya Suma'):

ERC 24.9%, PSC 21.1%, JxCAT 20%, PP+Cs 14.5%, CatComú-Podem 8.9%, CUP 5.2%, VOX 3.7%

Preferred government:

ERC+JxCAT with outside support from the CUP (pro-independence): Yes 26.6%, No 66.1%
ERC+PSC+CatComú (leftwing): Yes 27.8%, No 64.6%
Cs+PSC+PP (constitutionalist): Yes 19.2%, No 74%
Minority government of the leading party: Yes 38.4%, No 54.6%

Pro-independence parties would reach nearly 50% of the vote, due to a 10% drop in turnout mostly affecting non-nationalist voers

Support for independence: In Favour 44%, Against 49%, Undecided 7%

(Most of the undecided are nationalist voters,, according to the poll)
 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Fresh Catalan elections, unconfirmed date )
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 10, 2020, 10:21:23 AM
Basque premier Iñigo Urkullu (PNV) has just called for a snap Basque election scheduled for the 5th of April. He has called the election 6 months early in order to separate it from the widely expected Catalan regional elections. It remains to be seen what Galician premier Alberto Núñez Feijoo (PP) will do, but I think he will try and expire his full term instead of calling the Galician election early.

In any case the Basque elections will be an absolute snoozefest barring any unexpected changes during the campaign. The PNV government will be easily reelected and propped up by PSE. (currently PNV-PSE is 1 seat short of a majority, and have done deals with PP and UP in a case by case basis).

I can't even think of any questions to ask regarding the other parties. Anyways, here are some of the most interesting things that could theoretically happen, even if they are all quite unlikely (in order of very unlikely to essencially impossible):

-Vox getting a seat
-UP beating PSE
-PSE overtaking Bildu
-Cs getting a seat
-PNV getting an overall majority

Yeah they are all very unlikely, but still it's the closest things that could happen to make the election fun

Anyways, while it is very outdated here is the last poll I was able to find (from October 2019, in other words before even the November general election)

75 seats, 38 for a majority

PNV 40% (30)
EH Bildu: 22% (17)
PSE: 15% (12)
UP: 12% (9)
PP: 8% (7)
Vox: 1% (0)
Cs: 1% (0)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Fresh Catalan elections, unconfirmed date )
Post by: Velasco on February 10, 2020, 10:51:09 AM
I think elections in Catalonia and Galicia will take place by October


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on February 10, 2020, 12:39:50 PM
Galicia premier Alberto Núñez Feijóo calls regional election on April 5, in coincidence with the Basque election


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 10, 2020, 01:05:56 PM
Unlike the Basque election snoozefest, the Galician election is a pure tossup where everything can happen.

One of the big questions is whether or not Vox will get any seats. The even bigger question is whether PP keeps its overall majority or not. And if PP does lose its majority, whether the left gets one of its own.

Anyways, my ratings for the 3 elections:

Galicia: Tossup
Basque Country: Safe PNV
Catalonia: Tossup (safe secessionist majority; lean broad left majority)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on February 10, 2020, 03:59:37 PM
PP leader Pablo Casado will confirm former Health minister Alfonso Alonso as candidate for the upcoming Basque elections, according to eldiario. Alonso is a moderate who supported Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría in the leadership contest. The current leader of the PP's Basque branch has shown little enthusiasm for the proposed 'constitutionalist' coalition with Cs (either 'España Suma' or 'Mejor Unidos'). There is little time to forge a deal, since the electoral legislation in the Basque Country gives 10 days from now on to register coalitions. On a side note, the moderate Borja Sémper quitted politics recently due to the climate of polarization in Spanish politics. Sémper wwas the PP spokesman in the Basque parliament and councilor in Donosti-San Sebastián. Both Alonso and Sémper are the opposite to radicals like Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo, the PP spokeswoman in Congress.

Meanwhile in Galicia Podemos, IU and Anova have neither a coalition deal nor a candidate. These parties ran together in 2016 within a coalition called 'En Marea', but later the parliamentary caucus splitted in two. The 2016 candidate Luis Villares and some deputies held the banner 'En Marea', which ran in the 2019 general elections with little success. Podemos, IU and Anova disassociated. The two former ran together in general elections within Galicia en Común, while Anova (a BNG split led by the charismatic Xosé Manuel Beiras) did not contest. The leftwing nationalist BNG is apparently on the rise again and might benefit from this situation. On the other hand, Alberto Núñez Feijóo rejects a coalition with Cs.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on February 12, 2020, 08:53:39 PM
Podemos secretary general Pablo Iglesias agrees an amicable separation with Teresa Rodríguez, the leader of the Andalusian branch and prominent member of the Anticapitalist faction. Rodríguez and her team won't run for reelection, paving the way for Iglesias to control the Andalusian organization. They will leave the party and Anticapitalistas won't be part of Podemos anymore. Differences on organizational model and the PSOE-UP coalition deal -much criticized by Teresa Rodríguez and her faction- have finally provoked rupture. Rodríguez always defended her autonomy and sought unsuccessfully to make her regional organization independent from Podemos, with a separate legal personality (similar to En Comú Podem in Catalonia). Rodríguez will remain as leader of Podemos Andalucía until the next regional convention taking onplace in May. The eleven Podemos members in the regional parliament will retain their seats, including Rodríguez. The decision to break with Podemos jeopardizes Adelante Andalucía, a project launched by Teresa Rodríguez and Antonio Maíllo, the former IU regional coordinator (replaced by Toni Valero). The relationship between the Rodríguez faction and IU has strained recently, due to the unconditional support of the latter to the PSOE-UP coalition government. Some IU spokesperson remarked they have a deal with Podemos in Andalusia and not with Rodríguez. It's unclear whether Rodríguez and her faction will compete against UP or seek alliances in the future, but anyway they have registered the Adelnte Analucía trademark.

Spanish Congress approves first step towards euthanasia law

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-02-12/spanish-congress-approves-first-step-toward-a-euthanasia-law.html

Quote
“Let whoever wants to live, live, but let the rest of us die with dignity.” With this quote uttered by Fernando Cuesta, a patient with Lou Gehrig’s disease who had to travel to Switzerland to end his life, Spain’s lower house of parliament on Tuesday began considering a bill to regulate euthanasia.

Introduced by the Socialist Party (PSOE), this is the first piece of legislation to reach the floor of the Congress of Deputies since the new government was sworn in last month. Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez, of the PSOE, heads a center-left coalition that also includes Unidas Podemos.

With 201 votes in favor, 140 against – from the conservative Popular Party (PP) and the far-right Vox – and two abstentions, Congress agreed to consider the initiative, which will now enter a period of amendments and go to the congressional Health Committee for negotiations.

This is the third time that the text has been taken into consideration by the Spanish parliament, but Health Minister Salvador Illa expressed confidence that it could secure final passage by June.

It was the Socialist lawmaker and former Health Minister María Luisa Carcedo who quoted Cuesta as a way of acknowledging “all the individuals and families who did not remain idle, but who fought so that others may benefit from this right.”

The debate was at times highly emotional. José Ignacio Echániz, a PP lawmaker, accused the promoters of this bill of wanting to save money on pensions and medical treatment at the expense of the most vulnerable people. “This is the foundation of the social-engineering project that you are trying to promote,” he said (...)

I have to say it's regrettable the PP spokesperson resorts to so such insidious argument. I think it's understandable -and even desirable ¡, because this is a delicate question worthy of a serious debate- to raise reasoned objections. Sadly ,the opposition parties opt to degrade themselves and the parliament.

Venezuela and José Luis Ábalos were the stars in the Session of Control held on Wednesday. Pedro Sánhez backed the minister of Transport, deeming that Ábalos averted a diplomatic incident

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-02-12/spanish-pm-backs-minister-over-meeting-with-venezuelan-vice-president-during-testy-session-in-congress.html

Quote
Spanish Transportation Minister José Luis Ábalos of the governing Socialist Party (PSOE) was called on to resign on Wednesday over his meeting with Venezuelan Vice-President Delcy Rodríguez at the end of January.

Ábalos had talks with the second-in-command to President Nicolás Maduro on January 20, when her plane made a controversial layover at Madrid’s Adolfo Suárez-Barajas airport. Ábalos said he saw Rodríguez inside her private aircraft to stop her from entering Spain, as she is one of 25 Venezuelan officials who are banned from entering the European Union due to the Maduro regime’s “political repression” against the civilian population. The Venezuelan vice-president “never stepped on Spanish soil,” according to security services from the airport, and after her meeting with Ábalos, took a commercial flight to Doha (...)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on February 16, 2020, 05:24:35 PM
Basque Country election  polls

Gizaker for EITB / GAD3 for ABC

EAJ-PNV 31-32 seats (40.9%) / 31-32 (40.5%)
EH Bildu 17-19 (22.6%) / 18-19 (22.4%)
PSE-EE 11-12 (14.4%) / 10 (12.3%)
Elkarrekin Podemos 8-9 (11.2%) / 7-9 (10.9%)
PP 5-6 (7.2%) / 7(7.9%)
VOX 0 (2.1%) / 0 (2.1%)
Cs 0 (0.7%) / 0 (0.8%)

Total seats: 75 (majority: 38)

Solid PNV lead and majority for the coalition between Basque nationalists and socialists

Galician election poll

Metroscopia for El Confidencial


PP 39 (46.6%)
PSOE 16 (20.1%)
BNG 14 (18.5%)
Esquerda* 6 (8.4%)
VOX 0 (2.7%)
Cs 0 (1.1%)

Total seats: 75 (majority: 38)


Narrow PP majority (solid lead) and BNG surge

*The "Left Common Group (Esquerda)" is aparliamentary group incorporating Podemos, IU, Anova, Equo and some grassroots movements such as Marea Atlántica (led by former A Coruña mayor Xulio Ferreiro) or Compostela Oberta. It's a split of the former En Marea group. For the moment (afaik), these parties and movements have not arranged candiate or coalition deal.


There have been relevant news with political implications this week, such as the cancellation of the World Mobile Congress in Barcelona (coronavirus panic, allegedly) and farmers protests in Valencia, León and elesewhere within a larger emerging protest movement of the countryside and the 'Emptied Spain'

https://english.elpais.com/economy_and_business/2020-02-14/spanish-farmers-stage-fresh-demonstrations-in-protest-at-low-prices-for-their-products.html

Quote
Spanish farmers staged a fresh demonstration on Friday in protest at the low prices of their produce, cutting off roads with their tractors in a number of parts of the country in a repeat of industrial action they have been taking since the end of January.

In Valencia, hundreds of farmers’ vehicles blocked the eastern Mediterranean city’s center, along a route that ended at the doors of the central government’s delegation there. There were also tractor protests in the province of Córdoba, where 5,000 vehicles blocked the freeway to Málaga.

Meanwhile, the Spanish government was today holding meetings with union representatives and bosses from leading supermarket chain Mercadona. The distribution sector is being blamed by farmers for slashing prices and using loss-leading strategies, as well as other similar methods that are having a negative effect on producers’ revenues.

The Friday protest in Valencia attracted 800 tractors, and was called by the main agrarian organizations. They are calling on the government to take measures to ensure that the prices they receive for their products at least cover their production costs. The farmers were planning to hand over their demands at the government delegation.

Wearing yellow jackets, protester Miguel Ángel Rosa explained to fellow farmer José Piles the problems he faced. “When this Casio gets to the store,” he said, pointing to his watch, “the production costs are already incorporated. But we, on the other hand, are the first who have to shell out, the last to get paid, and we don’t even make back what we have spent.” The pair are both 60 years old and started to work in the countryside at age 14. They produce oranges, persimmon and vegetables.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: TheSaint250 on February 19, 2020, 07:18:13 PM
Is the BNG surge likely to be maintained until the election, or is there a chance it wears off?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 20, 2020, 12:27:08 PM
Is the BNG surge likely to be maintained until the election, or is there a chance it wears off?

I personally think it will be maintained. BNG is coming from a very low point, as in 2016 most of their electorate went to UP, that was when UP was at its national peak. With UP going down a not insignificant part of their electorate will go back to BNG.

UP also sold themselves as a Galician nationalist lite party of sorts that election, or to be more precise; had alliances with people that did; most notably long time former long time BNG leader Xose Manuel Beiras, leader of Anova (a BNG split who ran with IU in 2012, and with UP in 2016).

Similarly, I would expect Bildu to rise in the Basque Country as well, albeit to a lesser extent


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 20, 2020, 12:39:44 PM
In other news, the government is preparing 2 new high profile bills.

The first one is a "Sexual Freedom Bill". Essencially, it is a big reform of all bills relating to rape, sexual assaults, gender violence and what not; including for example the inclusion of the always controversial "only yes is yes" principle (in other words, that explicit consent is needed in sexual relations).

Other changes include actually reducing the penalties for sexual abuse, adding gang rape, drugging a person to rape them and marital rape (this includes non-married couples) as aggravating circumstances and it will criminalize sexual street harrassing (the usual "yell sexist things at random women in the street" stuff)

https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020/02/14/actualidad/1581704814_345657.html

Another big bill will be a new education bill, this time called LOMLOE (Ley Orgánica de Modificación de la Ley Orgánica de Educación).

Apparently it will have 7 main points:

>Modify how people become teachers; including a mandatory internship lasting for one year
>Revise the public scolarships system, reducing the minimum GPA to get a scolarship to a 50/100 (the minimum passing grade in Spain in general) and lowering other requirements
>Implanting a mandatory subject of "Ethics and civic values"
>Parents get back a vote in School Councils
>A complete overhaul of the Vocational Training programs (Formación Profesional, FP)
>The Religion subject will no longer count towards a student's GPA
>Increasing the number of permanent teachers

As per usual, this is just another education bill rolling back whichever things the last education bill made. The biggest example here is the "Ethics and Civic Values" subject. It was first implemented by Zapatero as "Education for Citizenship". Then the Rajoy government deleted it and now Sánchez is bringing it back.

Since Spain became a democracy all PP and PSOE governments have passed at least one full overhaul of the education system. You have Gonzalez's LOGSE, Aznar's LOCE (never implemented), Zapatero's LOE, Rajoy's LOMCE and apparently now Sanchez's LOMLOE. Plus the Francoist bill from 1970.

In fact, had I been a year younger I would have studied under a whopping 4 different education bills! (LOGSE, LOCE, LOE and LOMCE); even if LOCE was never enacted.

https://electomania.es/lomloe-el-gobierno-prepara-una-nueva-ley-de-educacion/
https://www.eldiario.es/sociedad/Celaa-derogara-LOMCE-aprobara-Gobierno_0_997750543.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on February 21, 2020, 02:12:36 PM
PP and Cs have sealed today a coalition agreement for the Basque Country elections. Basically, it's an imposition of Pablo Casado to the leader of the regional branch Alfonso Alonso. The ticket will be called "PP+Cs" and oranges will be granted two electable positions. The text of the agreement says the coalition will be headed by the PP without naming the regional leader, who was opposed to a deal with Cs and bypassed by the PP national leadership. Galicia premier Alberto Núñez Feijóo also rejected a joint ticket with Cs, while oranges rejected the offer to integrate in the PP list. The reason why Pablo Casado imposed the coalition in the Basque Country and not in Galicia is obvious: Alberto Núñez Feijóo leads one of the strongest regional branches and governs with a majority in regional assembly, while PP is much weaker in the Basque Country and plays a marginal role in regional politics. The benefits of a coalition agreement with Cs are at best dubious (see recent polls), but possibly it's a sign of a future merger through absorption. The Galician PP is different from other regional branches, as it has regionalist traits incompatible with the centralism of Cs and Vox. On the other hand, the Basque PP supports the Basque economic agreement which Cs traditionally opposes. This stance was not an impediment for the coalition agreement in the neighbouring Navarre (NA+), as the oranges modulated total opposition to the Navarrese economic agreement.

In the news, Spain is about to introduce tougher requirements to asylum seekers...

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-02-19/spain-to-introduce-tougher-asylum-requirements.html

... and the Interior ministry announcement upsets UP

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-02-20/spains-coalition-government-clashes-over-immigration-crackdown.html

Quote
The Spanish coalition government between the Socialist Party (PSOE) and the anti-austerity Unidas Podemos is showing the first signs of tensions over plans to introduce tougher asylum requirements. Spain’s Interior Ministry is drafting a new law that will restrict the right to asylum, following the path taken by the European Union in recent years. A draft of the bill, to which EL PAÍS has had access, limits access to asylum application at migrant holding centers, and expands the list of legitimate reasons for denial.

But this is not the only source of conflict. Indeed, the tension between the two parties has been building for weeks in response to Interior Minister Fernando Grande-Marlaska’s tougher stance on immigration. In recent months, the minister has increased deportations of undocumented migrants to Mauritania to relieve pressure on Spain’s Canary Islands, which have seen a huge spike in irregular arrivals.

Story: "Why I voted for Vox"

https://english.elpais.com/eps/2020-02-21/why-i-voted-for-vox.html

Quote
As we enter the Murcia region, the sky becomes leaden. The area is on orange alert for severe weather conditions. There were several fatalities during the storms of last September, when torrential rains ruined crops and flooded streets and homes. There were millions of euros worth of damage, and the Mar Menor saltwater lagoon became poisoned, resulting in a carpet of dead marine life being washed ashore (...)

 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 23, 2020, 06:35:41 PM
The national PP executive has decided to sack the Basque PP leader Alfonso Alonso. He was opposed to the deal with Cs and was well known for being a moderate inside PP. He will be replaced by Carlos Iturgaiz, a hardliner who was already Basque PP leader in the early 00s.

In any case, this is definitely bad news for PP's already limited appeal in the Basque Country. Why would Casado shoot himself in the foot in this way?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Oryxslayer on February 23, 2020, 07:56:47 PM
The national PP executive has decided to sack the Basque PP leader Alfonso Alonso. He was opposed to the deal with Cs and was well known for being a moderate inside PP. He will be replaced by Carlos Iturgaiz, a hardliner who was already Basque PP leader in the early 00s.

In any case, this is definitely bad news for PP's already limited appeal in the Basque Country. Why would Casado shoot himself in the foot in this way?

You are probably looking at it the wrong way. You think the point of such a pact is to get more seats in a legislature that PP never has a shot at governing, at least currently. Casado sees the pact as the next step to incorporating the dying C's, so getting everything to work is more important.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on February 23, 2020, 08:35:09 PM
The national PP executive has decided to sack the Basque PP leader Alfonso Alonso. He was opposed to the deal with Cs and was well known for being a moderate inside PP. He will be replaced by Carlos Iturgaiz, a hardliner who was already Basque PP leader in the early 00s.

In any case, this is definitely bad news for PP's already limited appeal in the Basque Country. Why would Casado shoot himself in the foot in this way?

Pablo Casado sacrifices the already weak Basque PP in exchange for a deal with Cs that hopefully paves the way for the absorption of the orange remains. The incumbent PP leader is just following the road map of his master José María Aznar: ideological rearming and reunification of the Spanish Right under the PP banner. Alonso backed Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría in the leadership contest, as well dislikes Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo (Congress spokeswoman, protegée of Aznar). The man is completely unimportant for Casado. Of course the decision is a shot on the foot of the mediocre PP leadership, as well as disrespectful with a regional organization which suffered a lot during the ETA lead years. Carlos Iturgaiz is a veteran hardliner who has been many years in oblivion. This pick is somewhat surprising for me. I don't think a radical out of touch with the present day is the best choice to run. I guess Casado expects the untouchable Alberto Nuñez Feijóo renews his majority in Galicia, compensating the likely disaster in the Basque elections. By the way, it was rumoured former UPyD leader Rosa Diez could have been the candidate picked by Casado. Ms Diez is currently in the PP orbit. Yet another radical centralist out of touch with the Basque reality. The evolution of Basque politics since the ETA ceasefire has been remarkably opposite to that of Catalonia.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on February 24, 2020, 04:05:25 AM
Carlos Iturgaiz has made some statements already. He said in the hard right esradio that Vox leader Santiago Abascal is a ''wonderful person'' and made an appeal to the far right party: ''we are not together because Vox is unwilling to''

Mr Iturgaiz claims that we are under a ''fascist-communist'' government aimed to destroy Spain, a country that is currently in a ''very serious situation'' of national emergency.

As I said earlier, the man is out of touch. The question is, given that Casado is drifting again towards the far right, what the hell are doing Inés Arrimadas and the other fake centrists? Isn't there a window of opportunity for a moderate centre-right party? I'm afraid the Spanish Right is following the Hungarian path (PP-Cs= Fidesz; Vox= Jobbik)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 24, 2020, 12:55:54 PM
Well, following from Velasco's question about "What are Arrimadas and the fake centrists doing?", it seems the Cs leadership election got a lot more interesting today.

Francisco Igea, leader of the party in Castille-Leon and well known critic of the leadership of Rivera and Arrimadas, has jumped into the leadership race. Igea became leader in Castille-Leon after winning an election that was rigged against him, and has been the highest profile critic in Cs. He even wanted a PSOE-Cs deal in Castille-Leon but the party shut him down.

Anyways, here is what Igea is proposing. The biggest difference is that Igea is defending a much more decentralized party model, where regional leaders have more autonomy. Currently Cs (alongside Vox) are the most centralized parties in Spain, where regional leaders are little more than puppets to the national leadership. Opponents claim this model is too inflexible and rigid, while supporters claim the alternative of high profile regional leaders (like the infamous PSOE barons) is worse. Igea is also against the PP-Cs deals that have been negotiated for the Basque Country, Catalonia and Galicia.

In a way, this primary reminds me slightly of the 2017 PSOE primary. All the Cs leadership is backing Arrimadas, while the bases (particularly in Catalonia) are supporting Igea. However, Igea is no Pedro Sánchez and I expect him to handily lose, in a scale of 80-20 or something like that; and Cs will slowly but surely be absorbed into PP.

Others have instead put the UP 2017 primary as the example, claiming that Igea is to Cs what Errejón was to UP.

https://elpais.com/politica/2020/02/23/actualidad/1582488811_600629.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on March 01, 2020, 02:40:09 PM
PM Pedro Sánchez and Catalan premier Quim Torra were present in the first meeting of the "governments tabla" to discuss the future of Catalonia. The meeting took place in La Moncloa, the seat of government in Madrid. The scenography was impressive and elaborate. The result were three hours of "therapy" about the origins of the crisis

https://english.elpais.com/politics/catalonia_independence/2020-02-28/catalan-talks-start-with-three-hours-of-therapy-about-the-origins-of-the-crisis.html

Quote
Contrary to expectations, the first round of talks between Spain’s central government and the Catalan authorities on the future of the northeastern region did not focus on how to resolve the ongoing political crisis in Catalonia, or whether the region has the right to hold a referendum on independence. Instead, representatives from both sides – who until recently appeared irreconcilable – spent nearly three hours on Wednesday discussing a historical issue: what were the origins of the Catalan crisis, and when do they date from?

Although no agreement was reached on key issues such as the right to an independence referendum or a government pardon for jailed separatists, the 15 participants at the meeting underscored that the most important point was holding the meeting itself, and the fact that further negotiations will take place in the coming weeks and months.

The meeting ended with a joint statement, and several people who were present agreed that while there were major discrepancies, the tone was friendly and even seemed, at times, like a therapy session.

Holding these talks was a condition set by the Catalan Republican Left (ERC), a separatist party with 13 lawmakers in Spain’s Congress of Deputies, in exchange for its commitment to abstain at the congressional vote in January to confirm Pedro Sánchez, of the Socialist Party (PSOE), as the prime minister of Spain.

Opposition leader Pablo Casado claims this negotiation is "humiliating" and promised he will revoke -once in government- whatever agreement is reached.

On the other hand, the expenditure ceiling was passed in Congress with the PNV support and the abstention of EH Bildu, ERC and JxCAT. Finance minister María Jesús Montero looked relieved, because is the first and necessarystep to have the budget passed by summer,

However, the Catalan independence movement is disunited and the attitudes toward the negotiation table are different. While ERC supports it and favours a pragmatic and gradualist strategy, the "leader in exile" Carles Puigdemont downgrades its importance.

Puigdemont was the star of a massive rally taking place yesterday in Perpignan, on the French side of the Catalan border

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-catalonia/thousands-attend-rally-in-france-for-exiled-catalan-leader-idUSKBN20N0TK

Quote
Tens of thousands of Catalan independence supporters gathered in Perpignan, southern France, on Saturday at a rally in support of exiled former Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont, who called on the crowd to prepare for the “definitive struggle” for independence. (...)

Puigdemont, who is now a member of the European Parliament and lives in exile in Belgium, urged supporters waving Catalan flags not to give up on the fight for an independent Catalonia.

“We know that we won’t stop and they won’t stop us. We don’t have to wait for better times because they are here,” he said, to cheers from the crowd, which numbered around 70,000 according to local police, though organizers put the number closer to 150,000. 

Galicia elections: Sondaxe poll

PP 39 seats (43.7%)
PSOE 15 (18.7%)
BNG 13 (16.7%)
Left 8 (12.6%)
Cs 0 (2.7%)
VOX 0 (1.8%)

The PP+Cs coalition in the Basque Country is polling between 7% and 8%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on March 02, 2020, 07:32:16 AM
Well, following from Velasco's question about "What are Arrimadas and the fake centrists doing?", it seems the Cs leadership election got a lot more interesting today.

Francisco Igea, leader of the party in Castille-Leon and well known critic of the leadership of Rivera and Arrimadas, has jumped into the leadership race. Igea became leader in Castille-Leon after winning an election that was rigged against him, and has been the highest profile critic in Cs. He even wanted a PSOE-Cs deal in Castille-Leon but the party shut him down.

Anyways, here is what Igea is proposing. The biggest difference is that Igea is defending a much more decentralized party model, where regional leaders have more autonomy. Currently Cs (alongside Vox) are the most centralized parties in Spain, where regional leaders are little more than puppets to the national leadership. Opponents claim this model is too inflexible and rigid, while supporters claim the alternative of high profile regional leaders (like the infamous PSOE barons) is worse. Igea is also against the PP-Cs deals that have been negotiated for the Basque Country, Catalonia and Galicia.

In a way, this primary reminds me slightly of the 2017 PSOE primary. All the Cs leadership is backing Arrimadas, while the bases (particularly in Catalonia) are supporting Igea. However, Igea is no Pedro Sánchez and I expect him to handily lose, in a scale of 80-20 or something like that; and Cs will slowly but surely be absorbed into PP.

Others have instead put the UP 2017 primary as the example, claiming that Igea is to Cs what Errejón was to UP.

https://elpais.com/politica/2020/02/23/actualidad/1582488811_600629.html

On a brief note, party convention will take place on March 14 and 15. Inés Arrimadas is set to win by a landslide, as she has collected 277 of 355 delegates (78%). The current parliamentary spokeswoman and future Cs leader ruled out a merger with the PP. Apparently Arrimadas is attempting a controlled renewal of the party without Rivera's inner circle and with more women in positions of power. Most of Rivera's lieutenants resigned, but not the powerful secretary for organization Fran Hervias (aka ''The Wolf''). Arrimadas won't count with the latter. She is totally opposed to regional leaders elected by membership, so the hyper centralized organizational model remains. The strategy of electoral alliances with the PP at regional level is partly motivated by the bad electoral prospects, but Arrimadas claims that Cs has its own niche and will run in its own in next general elections.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: mileslunn on March 02, 2020, 06:26:04 PM
With expenditure ceiling passing, how likely is it that the budget passes?  My guess is any tax changes take effect in 2021 or do they impact 2020 tax year?  If budget fails it seems deadlock although like Israel election today possible last minute voters swing heavily in one direction to prevent another deadlock.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on March 03, 2020, 02:19:05 AM
With expenditure ceiling passing, how likely is it that the budget passes?  My guess is any tax changes take effect in 2021 or do they impact 2020 tax year?  If budget fails it seems deadlock although like Israel election today possible last minute voters swing heavily in one direction to prevent another deadlock.

The expenditure ceiling is a first step, but ERC has the key to pass the budget and has conditioned its abstention to the "success" of negotiations. They should say the "narrative" about negotiations, because it's highly unlikely there are meaningful advances before the Catalan elections. With the current composition of parliament, Spain's political stability is conditioned to the political situation in Catalonia and the latter is quite complex and conditioned by the competition between the two main separatist forces (ERC vs JxCAT, Junqueras vs Puigdemont). I think it's in the ERC interest that the PSOE-UP coalition lasts, but who knows...

Do you mean the "Google Tax" and the likes? As far as I know, Spain and other European countries have been pressed by the Trump administration (there's a commercial war going on, triggered by the US) and the Spanish government would like to coordinate the implementation of taxes to internet giants (please note that some enterprises are bigger than medium-sized states) with France and other countries. In case you are referring to other taxes, please specify.

Thankfully Spain is not Israel. In any case, we haven't the full results of the Israeli elections and it's a bit early to talk about conclusive outcomes (it's clear that Bibi won, but he's on the brink of majority). Even though Pablo Casado is a rightwinger with aggressive rhetoric, he lacks the malice and talent for confrontation of Donald Trump or Benjamin Netanyahu. I think that only a catastrophic and unpredicted event can provoke a heavy swing in public opinion. Such eventualities have happened before (Madrid bombings in 2004, for instance), but I don't have a crystal ball to predict them


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: mileslunn on March 03, 2020, 02:40:55 AM
With expenditure ceiling passing, how likely is it that the budget passes?  My guess is any tax changes take effect in 2021 or do they impact 2020 tax year?  If budget fails it seems deadlock although like Israel election today possible last minute voters swing heavily in one direction to prevent another deadlock.

The expenditure ceiling is a first step, but ERC has the key to pass the budget and has conditioned its abstention to the "success" of negotiations. They should say the "narrative" about negotiations, because it's highly unlikely there are meaningful advances before the Catalan elections. With the current composition of parliament, Spain's political stability is conditioned to the political situation in Catalonia and the latter is quite complex and conditioned by the competition between the two main separatist forces (ERC vs JxCAT, Junqueras vs Puigdemont). I think it's in the ERC interest that the PSOE-UP coalition lasts, but who knows...

Do you mean the "Google Tax" and the likes? As far as I know, Spain and other European countries have been pressed by the Trump administration (there's a commercial war going in, triggered by the US) and the Spanish government would like to coordinate the implementation of taxes to internet giants (please note that some enterprises are bigger than medium-sized states) with France and other countries. In case you are referring to other taxes, please specify.

Thankfully Spain is not Israel. In any case, we haven't the full results of the Israeli elections and it's a bit early to talk about conclusive outcomes (it's clear that Bibi won, but he's on the brink of majority). Even though Pablo Casado is a rightwinger with aggressive rhetoric, he lacks the malice andtalent for confrontation of Donald Trump or Benjamin Netanyahu. I think that only a catastrophic and unprotected event can provoke a heavy swing of public opinion. Such eventualities have happened before (Madrid bombings in 2004, for instance), but I don't have a crystal ball to predict them

I mean Bank tax and high earner's tax hike.  Last time high earners got hit some football players complained so would it impact 2020 salaries or only 2021?  Mind you even with hike top rates I believe will still be below France and Portugal while higher than Italy, Germany, and England and around the same as Netherlands.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on March 03, 2020, 02:37:43 PM
I mean Bank tax and high earner's tax hike.  Last time high earners got hit some football players complained so would it impact 2020 salaries or only 2021?  Mind you even with hike top rates I believe will still be below France and Portugal while higher than Italy, Germany, and England and around the same as Netherlands.

The government just submitted the draft in Congress to implement the so-called 'Tobin Tax', which will take effect three months after its release in the Official Journal (later in this year). Apparently the tax to financial transactions will be set at 0.2% (France would be at 0.3%). Finance minister expects to raise about 850 EUR millions, a drop in the ocean.

Regarding the big fortunes, enhancing tax revenue implies the reform of corporate and income taxes. I get from the news that the government is developing measures to tax SICAVs* , but I can't tell much more at this moment.

*SICAV: A SICAV is an open-ended collective investment scheme common in Western Europe, especially Luxembourg, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Malta, France and Czech Republic.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: mileslunn on March 03, 2020, 05:28:28 PM
I mean Bank tax and high earner's tax hike.  Last time high earners got hit some football players complained so would it impact 2020 salaries or only 2021?  Mind you even with hike top rates I believe will still be below France and Portugal while higher than Italy, Germany, and England and around the same as Netherlands.

The government just submitted the draft in Congress to implement the so-called 'Tobin Tax', which will take effect three months after its release in the Official Journal (later in this year). Apparently the tax to financial transactions will be set at 0.2% (France would be at 0.3%). Finance minister expects to raise about 850 EUR millions, a drop in the ocean.

Regarding the big fortunes, enhancing tax revenue implies the reform of corporate and income taxes. I get from the news that the government is developing measures to tax SICAVs* , but I can't tell much more at this moment.

*SICAV: A SICAV is an open-ended collective investment scheme common in Western Europe, especially Luxembourg, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Malta, France and Czech Republic.



I thought corporate tax rate would be 3% higher for banks than other corporations?  As for income taxes, isn't the plan a 2% hike on those making over 130,000 Euros and 4% on those making over 300,000 Euros and I know in past football players tend to complain every time top rates go up.  Depending on autonomous community, I believe football players would be taxed at 47.5% to 52% so not highest in Europe but as mentioned higher than Italy, Germany, and England while similar to Netherlands and slightly below Portugal and France.  So I was thinking more that.  I know in English speaking world, pushing top rates over 50% has often been criticized and I believe Sanchez's hike would put marginal rates over 300,000 Euros over 50% in majority of autonomous communities and over 50% on as little as 130,000 Euros in some, so I was wondering how likely this tax hike will be and if so, does it apply to 2020 year or only to 2021 year?  If to 2021 year, I would imagine some football players will want trades to lower taxed countries.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on March 03, 2020, 05:59:24 PM
Footballers will probably just dodge taxes. Both Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi (to put 2 famous examples) have been convicted of tax evasion, but were left free as they didn't have previous criminal records and their sentences were short.

Honestly I wish Messi and Ronaldo had gone behind bars for a while. It would have sent a powerful message to tax dodgers in the country; we should be more strict on that stuff.

I guess it also shows that I am not a soccer fan :P


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on March 04, 2020, 06:50:54 AM
Last polls show Galicia premier Alberto Núñez Feijóo on the brink of losing majority

Celeste-Tel/eldiario.es

PP 36-38 (43.9%)
PSOE 20-22 (25.2%)
BNG 9 (13.6%)
Galicia in Common 8 (11.1%)
VOX 0 (2.9%)
Cs 0 (1.3%)

Very good for the PSOE. 38 seats needed for majority



Sigma Dos for Antena 3 / Sociométrica for El Español


PP 37-39 (46.9%) / 37-38 (46.2%)
PSOE 18-20 (24.4%) / 19-20 (22.3%)
BNG 14 (19%) / 9 (13.9%)
Galicia in Common 3-6 (7.3%) / 8 (10.2%)
VOX 0 (2.4%) / 1 (4.9%)
Cs 0 (0.7%) / NA

Sigma Dos predicts a bombastic result for the BNG, while Sociométrica predicts that Vox will jump into parliament with a single seat. I think the disparities in the results of the BNG and Galicia in Common (GeC: Podemos, IU, Anova, Mareas) are due to the interconnected voter bases and the low name recognition of the GeC camdidate. Podemos leader in Galicia Antón Gómez-Reino. However GeC has a big asset in the Spanish government with Labour minister Yolanda Díaz (IU member and close ally of Pablo Iglesias), who is revealing as the most efficient of the UP cabiinet members.

The worst scenario for Alberto Núñez Feijóo is losing majority (obviously), but another nightmarish scenario for him is falling short by one seat with Vox in parliament. The Galicia premier is a moderate within PP and the Galician branch of the conservatives has a regionalist character incompatible with Vox. For instance, Feijóo claims that Galicia is a "historical nationality", which is a very constitutional definition (article 2 mentions the existence of "regions" and "historical nationalities" within Spain). However, the allegedly 'constitutionalist' Vox stands for the recentralization of the state and rejects that definition.  


Basque Country polls: Sigma Dos / Sociométrica

EAJ-PNV 32-34 (41.9%) / 27 (37.3%)
EH Bildu 18-21 (23.1%) / 18 (22.2%)
PSE-PSOE 10-11 (14.8%) / 12 (14.1%)
Elkarrekin Podemos 6-8 (10.3%) / 10 (12%)
PP+Cs 4-5 (7.5%) / 7 (9.3%)
VOX 0 (1.2%) / 1 (3.1%)

Disparities in the results. As it happens with Galicia, Sociométrica predicts a shocking result with Vox jumping into regional parliament winning a single seat (presumably for Álava). Bad prospects for the PP+Cs alliance headed by Carlos Iturgaiz.

The recent collapse of a landfill in the Basque Country, with a massive dumpslide (thousands of tones) and two casualties, might have eroded somewhat the solid PNV grip on the region

https://elpais.com/politica/2020/02/13/actualidad/1581592963_032517.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on March 04, 2020, 10:12:47 AM
Looking at polls I would actually be moving Galicia from tossup to Lean PP.

It seems to me the Vox vote will consolidate behind PP and that Feijoo is personally popular in a similar way to the Southern PSOE premiers like Guillermo Fernandez Vara (Extremadura) and Emiliano Garcia Page (Castille-La Mancha

Another interesting story in Galicia is the recent BNG surge. With a good campaign they could get a really good result, a big comeback from their miserable 2016 result

The Basque Country is still boring and a PNV lanfslide though I guess the recent landfill disaster mighg make them lose votes


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on March 05, 2020, 01:49:31 PM
The Spanish government approved recently a draft law to strengthen rape convictions

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/03/spain-approves-draft-law-to-strengthen-convictions

Quote
Spain’s leftwing government has approved a bill that would define all non-consensual sex as rape, acting on a pre-election promise to strengthen laws in defence of women’s rights.

Combating gender violence has been high on Spain’s political agenda since the 2016 “wolf pack” trial, in which five men were jailed for sexual abuse, but not rape, after gang-raping a young woman at the Pamplona running of the bulls festival.

Mass protests against that conviction, which attracted international attention in the wake of the global #MeToo movement, led to an appeal in 2019 in which the supreme court ruled the men had committed rape, not sexual abuse (...)  

The draft was prepared by the Equality minister Irene Montero (Podemos) and was presented after the cabinet meeting on Tuesday

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-03-03/spanish-cabinet-takes-first-step-toward-major-overhaul-of-sexual-assault-laws.html

Quote
The legislation underwent a series of changes as recently as Monday, after it was debated with other ministries – in particular the Justice Ministry required modifications. The law includes changes to the Criminal Code, such as the classification of street harassment as a misdemeanor, punishable by house arrest, community work or a fine, and also includes planned changes for the sentencing of sexual offenses.

The comprehensive law pays particular attention to the prevention of sexual offenses, and includes education on equality and diversity in all levels of the education system. The draft legislation sets out a time frame of a year to decide whether gender violence courts should judge a particular case or if they should be passed to other specialized tribunals, ministry sources added.  

Last minute modifications triggered an argument between Irene Montero and Deputy PM Carmen Calvo, who was mediating between Equality and Justice departments. The tension between PSOE and UP representatives during technical discussions reveals an underground conflict for the leadership of the feminist movement, which is very important for both coalition partners. According to PSOE and UP sources quoted by El País, this cracks the coalition. Pablo Iglesias amplified the sensation of crisis suggesting without saying his name that the Justice minister is a "frustrated male chauvinist". We'll see if they manage to save the situation, but this argument breaks the image of unity and collaborative spirit cultivated the first two months. Equality affairs were previously managed by Carmen Calvo, who was initially reluctant to cede them to UP.

On the other hand, the management of the coronavirus crisis is being coordinated by the Health minister Salvador Illa (PSC) and an expert with remarkable communication skills called Fernando Simón, who has been praised for his efficiency and transparency. Pedro Sánchez has reinforced the powers of the Health Ministry after a relatively minor controversy caused by a guide released by the labour Ministry in its own.

In other news, a Swiss prosecutor is investigating an alleged million-euro donation to Corinna Larsen, who was the "special friend" of former king Jun Carlos

https://english.elpais.com/international/2020-03-05/swiss-prosecutor-investigating-alleged-million-euro-donation-to-friend-of-spains-former-king.html

Quote
A public prosecutor in Switzerland has been investigating a multi-million-euro donation received by Corinna Larsen, a friend of former Spanish King Juan Carlos I, from a Swiss bank account linked to a Panamanian foundation, according to a number of sources close to the judicial probe who have been consulted by EL PAÍS.

The documents where these payments are reflected were found during searches ordered by the prosecutor, Yves Bertossa, in the offices of the Geneva-based asset manager Arturo Fasana and the lawyer Dante Canonica, both of whom are linked to the network of companies that is currently being investigated by the prosecutor. Fasana was also investigated as part of the sprawling “Gürtel” case, a kickbacks-for-contracts network involving Spain’s conservative Popular Party (PP). He was probed for having moved funds for the businessman at the center of that case, Francisco Correa.  

UP, Compromís and ERC have requested an inquiry commission in Congress, in order to investigate the "alleged corrupt activities" of the "emeritus" king Juan Carlos. This upsets the PSOE, which is nominally republican but supportive of constitutional monarchy. Socialists will oppose the commission arguing Juan Carlos is constitutionally inviolable.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on March 09, 2020, 02:03:37 PM
Well, it seems coronavirus is taking all the national attention recently. As of now, all schools will be closed for 14 days in the province of Vitoria (Basque Country). Madrid has also closed all schools in the region. (Madrid and Vitoria are 2 of the 3 main outbreak centers, the last one being centered around the town of Haro in La Rioja).

A Lombardy-like lockdown of Madrid, while I think is unlikely, would be absolutely massive, especially considering it is the nation's capital.

Much like stock markets around the world, the Spanish stock market is also in free fall.

Certainly not the greatest situation out there.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Skye on March 10, 2020, 06:27:20 AM


Holy crap VOX's Secretary General Javier Ortega Smith has Coronavirus.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on March 10, 2020, 09:46:13 AM
Vox is a virus, too


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on March 11, 2020, 05:30:00 AM
Pedro Sánchez made a statement yesterday calling for calm and announcing the government will do whatever necessary in the "difficult weeks" ahead. Extraordinary cabinet meeting today

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-03-11/spanish-pm-calls-for-calm-warns-of-difficult-weeks-ahead-in-face-of-coronavirus-crisis.html

Quote
In an atmosphere that reflected the complexity of the situation caused by the novel coronavirus crisis, Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez spoke on Tuesday evening from La Moncloa prime ministerial palace to announce economic assistance for companies and families who are suffering from the epidemic. The aid will be particularly aimed at parents who are unable to go to work and need to take care of their children, as well as the sectors that have been most affected by the outbreak.

The Socialist Party (PSOE) politician also promised liquidity for small- and medium-sized companies, and warned that there would be “difficult weeks” ahead in Spain. He did, however, announce that he had achieved progress in a meeting with his European partners: the European Union would be more flexible on the deficit targets for the countries most affected by Covid-19, as the disease caused by the virus is known. This will include Spain and Italy.

    Faced with a complex crisis, the Spanish  

Valencia premier Ximo Puig announced yesterday the world famous Fallas fiestas will be postponed. On the other hand, egardless their recent differences, PSOE and UP are working together. Also, it's remarkable the cooperation between the central government and the different regional administrations, including thoise governed by PP and Cs (propped up by Vox) and the Catalan government.

As said before, Vox secretary general Javier Ortega Smith tested positive for coronavirus. The Vox leader attended several events before, including a crowded rally taking place last Sunday with some 9000 people. Later, Vox apologized for that

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-03-10/secretary-general-of-spains-far-right-vox-party-tests-positive-for-coronavirus.html

Quote
The Spanish far-right party Vox confirmed on Tuesday that its secretary general, Javier Ortega Smith, has tested positive for the novel coronavirus. The group also apologized for organizing an event on Sunday in the Vistalegre arena in Madrid, which was attended by around 9,000 people.

The far-right party did not explain how Ortega Smith, who is a lawmaker in Spain’s lower house, the Congress of Deputies and member of the Madrid local government, contracted the virus. In response to the situation, Vox said in a statement that its 52 deputies will work from home and not enter  

Previosuly Vox was developing a narrative on an alleged government's  "inaction" and criricized heavily the leftist coalition for allowing feminist demonstartions on the Inernational Women's Day, which attracted mass numbers last Sunday despite coronavirus fears

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-03-09/womens-day-marches-in-spain-attract-mass-numbers-despite-coronavirus-fears.html

Quote
Tens of thousands of people took to the streets of Spain on Sunday evening to take part in marches called across the country for International Women’s Day. The reasons driving the protest were the same ones that inspired the mass demonstrations of the past two years: gender violence, the gender wage gap, sexism and the burden of non-remunerated work.

The strength of Spain’s feminist movement was just as evident as other years. From Bilbao in the northern Basque Country to the eastern region of Valencia, the streets were filled with people calling for greater gender equality. Turnout, however, was not as high as the 2018 and 2019 demonstrations, given the concerns over the coronavirus and the divisions within the women’s movement with respect to the transgender community.

Despite this, tens of thousands of people still took to the street – an indication that the feminist movement has perhaps the greatest capacity to mobilize, particularly in Spain which has some of the largest women’s marches in Europe. This year, all Spain’s political parties – with the exception of the far-right Vox – attended the demonstrations. Even the conservative Popular Party (PP), which did not attend previous marches, took part in the protest. Members of the center-right Ciudadanos were also present, but had to leave the march in Madrid after they were yelled at by some demonstrators for their dealings with Vox. Ciudadanos and the PP govern in several regional and local governments in Spain thanks to the support of the far-right group, which has used its parliamentary position as kingmaker to push for controversial policies like the so-called “parental veto,” which gives parents the right to stop their children from attending non-curricular classes on issues such as LGBTQ+ rights and teenage pregnancy.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Skye on March 12, 2020, 01:17:42 PM
So, the country seems to be having a 🔥THIS IS FINE🔥 moment regarding the Coronavirus pandemic. How are your cities? Mine is doing fine for now. There are no Coronavirus cases in my province AFAIK. Though I've seen pictures from Madrid that show empty supermarket shelves. I'd rather not go through that again, thanks.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: CumbrianLefty on March 12, 2020, 01:56:21 PM
So, the country seems to be having a 🔥THIS IS FINE🔥 moment regarding the Coronavirus pandemic. How are your cities? Mine is doing fine for now. There are no Coronavirus cases in my province AFAIK. Though I've seen pictures from Madrid that show empty supermarket shelves. I'd rather not go through that again, thanks.

You will probably have to, though.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on March 12, 2020, 03:05:28 PM
Emergency measures agaisnt coronavirus: Pedro Sánchez pledges millions in relief, recommends remote working and the closure of schools throughout Spain

https://english.elpais.com/economy_and_business/2020-03-12/spains-pm-pledges-millions-of-euros-in-relief-for-coronavirus-emergency.html

Quote
peaking via video conference, Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez of the Socialist Party (PSOE) said his government will inject €1 billion into the health system and transfer a further €2.8 billion to regional authorities to help them shore up their healthcare services.

The announcement came as the number of infections in Spain rose to 3,000 and deaths reached 84, with a further 189 people declared as having recovered from the Covid-19 disease. Meanwhile, investor fears caused Spain’s blue-chip Ibex 35 index to plunge by a record-setting 14.06%.

 ánchez said that besides the health package, the government will also introduce measures to provide economic relief to businesses, including a six-month moratorium on tax payments for small and medium enterprises (SMEs) and the self-employed.

“This is an important measure that will facilitate the injection of €14 billion into the productive system,” said Sánchez, whose Deputy Prime Minister Pablo Iglesias is currently quarantined at home after the latter’s partner, Equality Minister Irene Montero, tested positive for the coronavirus.

All the cabinet members took the coronavirus test this morning, as well as king Felipe and queen Letizia (recently she attended an event with Montero). Results will be released anytime

Many Spanish regions opt to close schools, in an attempt to slow coronavirus. Last time I heard about figures, there were more than 3000 positives and more than 80 dead. Presumably in the following weeks, Spain will follow the steps of Italy

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-03-12/basque-country-galicia-and-murcia-close-schools-in-bid-to-slow-coronavirus.html

Quote
The regional governments in Catalonia, the Basque Country, Galicia, Aragón, Castilla-La Mancha, Navarre, the Canary Islands, Valencia, Castilla y León and Murcia on Thursday all opted to close all of their universities, schools and kindergartens, following the lead of Madrid and La Rioja, which took the same measure earlier in the week. The move comes in a bid to slow the transmission of the novel coronavirus. In total, the measures will affect 6.57 million school pupils and 932,000 university students – 55% of the total in Spain.  

Spanish Health Ministry predicts the coronavirus epidemic will last between 2 and 5 months

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-03-11/spains-health-ministry-predicts-coronavirus-epidemic-will-last-between-two-and-five-months.html

Quote
Under ideal circumstances, if all of the measures being taken to control the spread of coronavirus work perfectly in Spain, the Health Ministry believes that the Covid-19 epidemic could come to an end in the country in two months. But this outcome is so idyllic that the experts consider it to be highly unlikely. “In the worst case, it could last four or five months,” said Fernando Simón, the director of the Health Ministry’s Coordination Center for Health Alerts and Emergencies. Speaking at a press conference on Wednesday  

Basque Country and Galicia regional governments are considering to postpone elections, but there are neither precedents nor a clear legal path to follow

In other news, Spanish Congress refusaed to investigate former king Juan Carlos (that obscure affair involving Saudi Arabia, corrupt businessmen and plicemen and Corinna Larsen)

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-03-11/spanish-congress-refuses-to-investigate-former-king-juan-carlos-for-alleged-irregular-donation.html

Quote
Spanish congressional leaders on Tuesday rejected the creation of an investigative committee to explore alleged irregularities committed by Spain’s emeritus king, Juan Carlos I, who abdicated from the throne in 2014.

The proposal for an inquiry came from the left-wing group Unidas Podemos, a partner in Spain’s governing coalition, and from several regional parties, including the separatist Catalan Republican Left (ERC) and Together for Catalonia (JxCat).

Unidas Podemos last week said that Congress should investigate “the alleged corrupt activities” of the emeritus king, after Swiss public prosecutors announced an investigation into a $65 million (€57 million) donation made in 2012 to Corinna Larsen, a Monaco-based businesswoman described as an old friend of Juan Carlos, from a Swiss account with ties to a Panama foundation, as this newspaper recently revealed.

Swiss prosecutors are trying to determine whether this donation was made by Juan Carlos and whether it is linked to the alleged payment of illegal commissions for the construction of a high-speed AVE train link in Saudi Arabia by a Spanish consortium.  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on March 12, 2020, 03:17:36 PM
So, the country seems to be having a 🔥THIS IS FINE🔥 moment regarding the Coronavirus pandemic. How are your cities? Mine is doing fine for now. There are no Coronavirus cases in my province AFAIK. Though I've seen pictures from Madrid that show empty supermarket shelves. I'd rather not go through that again, thanks.

Reportedly there have been about 50 cases so far in the Canary Islands. In the first stages of the coronavirus crisis there were some tourists isolated in hotels and hospitals, as well as some cases of Italian residents (we have a thriving Italian community here) and locals coming from Italy. Regional government has closed schools already and we will have to be prepared for harsher measures in the weeks to come


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on March 12, 2020, 05:58:02 PM
So, the country seems to be having a 🔥THIS IS FINE🔥 moment regarding the Coronavirus pandemic. How are your cities? Mine is doing fine for now. There are no Coronavirus cases in my province AFAIK. Though I've seen pictures from Madrid that show empty supermarket shelves. I'd rather not go through that again, thanks.

Guess living in "la España vaciada" has some perks after all :P

Also situation in my town is exactly the same as Velasco's (it is literally the same town lol). Classes at university are cancelled, everyone is on high alert and what not.

For the anectotal reports on supermarkets, everything seemed normal to me. Other anecdotal stuff includes students from the "minor" islands (everything that is not Gran Canaria or Tenerife) rushing to go to their homes; much like how all the Canarian students in Madrid and what not rushed to get back to the islands.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque and Galician elections: April 5, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on March 13, 2020, 01:59:14 PM
Spanish government declares the State of Alarm

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-03-13/spanish-government-declares-state-of-alarm-in-bid-to-combat-coronavirus-spread.html

Quote
The Spanish government announced on Friday that it was implementing a state of alarm for 15 days in a bid to control the spread of the coronavirus pandemic in the country. Speaking during a press conference at around 3.30pm, Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez informed the Spanish public that the Cabinet would meet tomorrow to put the measure into effect, allowing the government to temporarily restrict the movement of citizens. Fundamental rights, however, will not be affected.

We are only in the first phase of combatting the virus,” Sánchez said on Friday. “We have some very tough weeks ahead of us. We cannot rule out reaching 10,000 [infections] by next week.”

The Socialist Party leader went on to explain that the state of alarm “would allow for the maximum mobilization of resources against the virus, but victory will depend on each one of us. Heroism also consists of washing your hands and staying at home. We are going to stop the virus with responsibility, and with unity.

“We will overcome this emergency by relying on advice from science and with support from all or the resources of the state,” he continued. “But it is also undeniable that we will manage it sooner, and with the least human, economic and social damage possible if we do it together.”

State of Alarm allows the government to:

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-03-13/what-is-a-state-of-alarm-and-what-will-the-spanish-government-be-able-to-do.html

Quote
  1.Limit the circulation or presence of people or vehicles at determined times or in determined places, or oblige them to comply with certain requirements.

  2.Temporarily requisition all kinds of assets and impose mandatory services.

  3.Temporarily take over and occupy industries, factories, workshops, operations or commercial premises of any kind, with the exception of private households, informing the relevant ministry of such actions.

 4.Limit or ration the use of services or the consumption of essential items.

 5.Issue the necessary orders to ensure supply for the markets and the functioning of the services of production affected by article (4).

What’s more, the state of alarm works in a similar way to Article 155 of the Constitution, which allows the central government to suspend a region’s devolved powers. All civil authorities, regional and local police forces and other civil servants are placed under the orders of the competent authority as per the decree. The central government is able to require “extraordinary services,” according to the law.

I'm not sure what is going to happen with regional elections in Galicia and Basque Country. Stay tuned for updates



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Former President tack50 on March 13, 2020, 04:42:45 PM
For the record this is only the 2nd time ever that emergency powers (states of alarm, exception and siege) are activated. Last time was in 2010 during an illegal air controllers strike so even that is very different from this


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Former President tack50 on March 16, 2020, 07:09:31 AM
The Basque regional elections are officially delayed. I would expect the Galician elections to be similarly delayed. No new dates have been set.

Also many politicians are having coronavirus. The latest one being the premier of Madrid, Isabel Díaz Ayuso.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on March 16, 2020, 10:14:17 AM
Galicia premier Alberto Nuñez Feijóo agrees with representatives of the opposition parties to postpone regional elections. The path to postpone the Basque elections was similar. Lehendakari (premier) Iñigo Urkullu called the other parties and they reached a consensus. Additionally, Urkullu committed to call opposition representatives again in.order to call elections once the crisis is over. Previously Feijóo and Urkullu asked their respective regional electoral commissions to decree the suspension, but the answer was that such decision had to be agreed by all the contesting parties. Apparently the Galicia government will issue a decree to be ratified by the electoral commissuon, while the Basque government will issue a decree of suspension sustained by the Health department that will last until the Basque gpvernment declares the health emergency is over


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on March 17, 2020, 05:08:33 PM
Miracles like this don't happen every day; we'll see how long it lasts. Meanwhile we better enjoy this truce in our political wars from our home confinements

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-03-17/spanish-political-parties-close-ranks-around-the-government-in-battle-against-the-coronavirus.html

Quote

CORONAVIRUS
Spanish political parties close ranks around the government in battle against the coronavirus

With the Spanish (and global) economy in freefall, the coronavirus pandemic still spreading, and citizens in Spain on lockdown in their houses, Spain’s political parties – including the opposition – opted on Monday to close ranks around Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez. The leader of the conservative Popular Party (PP), Pablo Casado, stated yesterday that he would support all of the measures that the Socialist Party (PSOE) and Unidas Podemos coalition government is taking, and avoided criticizing the actions of the executive, which declared a state of alarm in the country on Saturday, giving it greater powers to combat the ongoing health crisis.

Pedro Sánchez announced today a 200 billion relief package. Stock markets recovered a bit from free fall

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-03-17/spain-announces-200-billion-relief-package-against-effects-of-coronavirus.html

Quote
The measures include delaying mortgage payments, easing social security contributions and allowing employees who need to care for dependent relatives to reduce their workday by as much as 100%.

The amount of this package, which comprises public and private funds, is the equivalent of 20% of Spain’s gross domestic product (GDP). “These are extraordinary times that require extraordinary measures,” said Sánchez, of the Socialist Party (PSOE), after the Cabinet meeting that greenlighted the financial assistance against the effects of the new coronavirus, which has already infected more than 11,000 people in Spain and caused close to 500 deaths.

Today's PM address was his best since the beginning of the crisis

On a side note, king Felipe VI will address the nation tomorrow. I think the monarchy will emerge fully discredited from this crisis. Felipe owes us a full explanation comcerning his father's activities (and his level of knowledge). Nobody expects he apologizes or says anything meaningful



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: CumbrianLefty on March 18, 2020, 09:33:03 AM
Certainly been a pretty big fall from grace for Juan Carlos.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on March 18, 2020, 10:22:50 AM
Certainly been a pretty big fall from grace for Juan Carlos.

The king is naked!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Former President tack50 on March 18, 2020, 12:43:32 PM
Certainly been a pretty big fall from grace for Juan Carlos.

Yeah, had he not been corrupt he probably goes down in history as one of the better monarchs in Spain; certainly the best since what, Alfonso XII? The short lived Amadeo I? Maybe Carlos III?

Now his legacy will be a lot more mixed. On one hand the will still be the king that turned Spain into a democracy and who voluntarily relinquished power; and who saved said democracy in a fateful night in 1981. On the other, he later became corrupt and surrounded by scandal.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on March 18, 2020, 01:31:17 PM


Yeah, had he not been corrupt he probably goes down in history as one of the better monarchs in Spain; certainly the best since what, Alfonso XII? The short lived Amadeo I? Maybe Carlos III

Leaving aside Amadeo of Savoy, who was only passing by, all the Spanish monarchs in the XIX and XX centuries were tyrannical, incompetent or irrelevant. Carlos III was the more palatable omong the XVIII century kings

Regarding Juan Carlos, even assuming the official hagiography, he has been.living off the rents since 1981. But lying in bed to rest or the Corinna affair would have not been an issue without the Saudi bribes. However, it's clear there's a close connection between Corinna, the Saudis and the rest of scumbags. There is a certain corruption and immorality inherent to these aristocrats and businessmen, as well a sense of impunity that maybe is related to the king's constitutional inviolability and the sycophants surrounding JC. Spanish media is guilty, too. Media enterprises always turned a blind eye on the king's irregular behaviour, until the hunting accident in Bostwana amidst a terrible economic crisis made it impossible


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Lumine on March 18, 2020, 02:08:02 PM
Certainly been a pretty big fall from grace for Juan Carlos.

Yeah, had he not been corrupt he probably goes down in history as one of the better monarchs in Spain; certainly the best since what, Alfonso XII? The short lived Amadeo I? Maybe Carlos III?

Now his legacy will be a lot more mixed. On one hand the will still be the king that turned Spain into a democracy and who voluntarily relinquished power; and who saved said democracy in a fateful night in 1981. On the other, he later became corrupt and surrounded by scandal.

One could even contend Juan Carlos's role in 1981 wasn't as heroic as it might seem, depending on the interpretation of what led Adolfo Suarez to resign on the first place (leaving aside more sinister conspiracy theories, which seem very hard to believe).

Could this bring down Felipe VI and the entire monarchy or is the King's political survival likely?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on March 18, 2020, 02:39:27 PM
One could even contend Juan Carlos's role in 1981 wasn't as heroic as it might seem, depending on the interpretation of what led Adolfo Suarez to resign on the first place (leaving aside more sinister conspiracy theories, which seem very hard to believe).

Could this bring down Felipe VI and the entire monarchy or is the King's political survival likely?

Exactly. I tend to be sceptic, both regarding hagiography and conspiracy theories. There is a grey zone in the events that led to the demise of Adolfo Suárez and their connection to the 1981 coup. There is an interpretation that says JC withdrew his support and let Suárez fall. Other plot stories are more obscure.

I think it's impossible to answer your question. I tend to think Felipe won't fall tomorrow. But the reputation of his family might be damaged beyond repair, making long term survival or succession less likely. Felipe will address the nation within half an hour, I believe. Let's wait until he speaks!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on March 18, 2020, 03:30:58 PM
The king's speech lasted only 7 minutes. He addressed the coronavirus crisis, after a meeting with the emergency cabinet. Felipe appealed to the nation's unity to fight the virus, in a Churchillian fashion (calls to resist). Unsurprisingly, he didn't say a word about his father. While it's true the coronavirus crisis and the JC affairs are totally unrelated issues, the King's House took advantage of the present state of shock to issue a note, saying Felipe cuts money grants to his father and rennounces inheritance . It uwas unnoticed. I could hear people hitting pots in my neighbourhood, and apparently people staged cacerolazos throughout Spain that lasted minutes. Maybe not massive*, but quite telling. People is upset

*Edit: The protest was massive in Catalonia and other places. In my neighbourhood it was audible, but not thundering


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Former President tack50 on March 19, 2020, 04:43:50 AM
First post-corona poll. It is not from the most reliable newspaper or pollster but it is better than nothing:

https://www.esdiario.com/92368796/Sondeo-ESdiario-el-PSOE-se-hunde-por-la-tardia-reaccion-de-Sanchez-al-Covid-19.html

ESdiario / Demoscopia y Servicios

PSOE: 24,5% (101)
PP: 23,9% (103)
VOX 14,5% (52)
UP 13,4% (37)
C's 8,3% (13)
MP 1,3%

Right: 46.7% (168)
Left: 37.9% (138)

First poll to have PP in the lead (in terms of seats at least) in over a year.

Honestly I think the left vs right gap is a bit too big, both in terms of votes and in terms of seats.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on March 19, 2020, 07:45:21 AM
That poll looks like rightwing propaganda. The prediction for PP and Cs is pure science fiction, while Vox is probably too low. I'd say the position of the PSOE-UP coalition is more consolidated under current corcumstances. The PP regional governments are cooperating, as well the Catalan separatists... even PP leader has stated willingness to pass an emergency ''reconstruction'' budget! In short, those jerks at esdiario are insulting our intelligence

On the other hand, the king's popularity must be reaching a nadir after recent developments and the uninspiring address last night. It's about time the CIS and the other pollsters ask about monarchy!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Skye on March 19, 2020, 07:59:04 AM
That poll looks like rightwing propaganda. The prediction for PP and Cs is pure science fiction, while Vox is probably too low. I'd say the position of the PSOE-UP coalition is more consolidated under current corcumstances. The PP regional governments are cooperating, as well the Catalan separatists... even PP leader has stated willingness to pass an emergency ''reconstruction'' budget! In short, those jerks at esdiario are insulting our intelligence

On the other hand, the king's popularity must be reaching a nadir after recent developments and the uninspiring address tonight. It's about time the CIS and the other pollsters ask about monarchy!

It would make sense if the people are dissatisfied with the government's response to the crisis. But we don't have any data on that yet, so it seems we'll have to wait for other polls for confirmation.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on March 19, 2020, 09:12:12 AM
Yes, we don't have reliable poll data to confirm. However, I don't see people is angry at the government's response out of some criticism that is logical. The signals are clear in what concerns the king, otoh


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on March 21, 2020, 12:02:15 PM
40Db poll for El Pais on the coronavirus crisis

Level of concern: 92.3% is very concerned pr fairly concerned

Tracking news about coronavirus:

-Media outlets: 36.7% is looking for all the time, 48.3% several times per day, 11.9% at least once a day, 1.2% every two days, 1.1% less frequently, 0.9% hardly ever or never

-Whatsapp and social networks: 27.8% all the time, 46.4% several times per day, 14.2% at least once a day, 1.5% every two days, 5.3% less frequently,  4-8% hardly ever or never

Probability of infection:

-Yourself getting infected: 4.8% very high, 24.6% fairly high, 45.6% low, 7.4% no likelihood

-You infecting others: 4.9% very high, 17.8% fairly high, 42.5% low, 18.2% no likelihoood (...)

-Recovery after contagion: 27.3% very high, 40.4% fairly high, 13.5% low, a tiny percent says no likelihood

-Someone in your near environment gets infected and dies: 8.7% very high, 21.7% fairly high, 32.8% low, 15.8% no lkelihood

Level of anxiety at home:  11.2% very nervous, 28.9% fairly nervous, 34.6% little nervous, 25.3% calm

Society after the coronoavirus crisis will be:

-Supportive: 4.5% less, 31.3% no change, 60.3% more

-Strong: 13.8% less, 32.4% no change, 47.7% more

 -Fearful; 7.6% less, 32.1% no change, 53.6% more

https://elpais.com/espana/2020-03-19/la-mitad-de-los-espanoles-teme-perder-el-empleo-por-la-crisis.html

Government's response to the crisis:

-All of Spain: 7.5% very good, 28.2% good, 29.1% average, 13.2% bad, 20.7% very bad

-Catalonia: 3.9% very good, 29.2% good, 28.2% average, 13.3% bad, 17.7% very bad

-Madrid: 7.7% very good, 24.4% good, 26.5% average, 16.6% bad, 24.8% very bad

-Andalusia: 9.6% very good, 29.6% good, 28.2% average, 13.3% bad, 17.7% very bad

The level of satisfaction/dissatisfaction in regions seems to be related to the impact of the crisis and the ideological lines. Madrid, for instance, is the equivalent to Lombardy in Spain and is right-leaning. The level of dissatisfaction in Catalonia is above average, but lower than Madrid. Andalusians are apparently more satisfied than the average.

  Regional premiers Isabel Díaz Ayuso (Madrid) and Quim Torra (Catalonia) have voiced complaints against the government. Quim Torra suggested to the BBC the Spanish government was not enforcing the confinement of the Catalan population, as well he sent a "letter to Europe''. The claim is obviously false (confinement has been enforced nationwide) and even ERC spokepersons have stated it's not time for "politicking", but anyway public opinion is influenced by the strong separatist feeling in part of the population. The situation in Madrid is worsening every day, with the regional healthcare system increasingly overburdened. Madrid premier claims central government is blocking medical provisions such as masks and respirators, but Healthcare minister Salvador Illa (a Catalan socialist) denied the accusations vigorously. On th other hand, people in the left criticizes the cuts in in the healthcare system implemented by the succesive conservative governments in Madrid during the last two decdes. The unity of action against the coronavirus has some breaches, which is sad but unsurprising.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Former President tack50 on March 26, 2020, 04:27:00 AM
Nobody has really mentioned it, but the 2 days ago PM Sánchez requested a 15 day extension of the state of alarm in order to deal with the coronavirus (otherwise it would expire this Sunday).

Unlike the first time, any extensions to the state of alarm must be voted by the Congress of Deputies. That vote happened yesterday, with the following result:

Yes: 321 (PSOE, PP, Vox, UP, Cs, PNV, MP, CC, NCa, NA+, Compromís, PRC, Foro, TEx)
Abstain: 28 (ERC, JxCat, Bildu, CUP)
No: 0

While the vote was unanimous, the debate wasn't, with the secessionist parties (JxCat, ERC, Bildu) wanting tougher measures and critizising how the government centralized the response; while the right wing parties critizise the government for acting late.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Skye on March 26, 2020, 07:21:37 AM
Nobody has really mentioned it, but the 2 days ago PM Sánchez requested a 15 day extension of the state of alarm in order to deal with the coronavirus (otherwise it would expire this Sunday).

And we are most likely headed for another one.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 05, 2020, 08:00:45 AM
While polling has almost completely stopped, and the few polling we have does not seem very consistent; it does seem Sánchez is not getting a "rally with the flag" effect. However a poll from Galicia today (which had to cancel its election scheduled for April) does show a "rally with the flag effect" for regional premier Alberto Núñez Feijoo:

Galician regional election poll by Infortécnica (38 seats for a majority)

PP: 39-42
PSOE: 17-20
BNG: 11-12
UP: 4-8

This changes my rating from Tossup -> Lean PP

Nobody has really mentioned it, but the 2 days ago PM Sánchez requested a 15 day extension of the state of alarm in order to deal with the coronavirus (otherwise it would expire this Sunday).

And we are most likely headed for another one.

Indeed, Sanchez is expected to pass another 15 day extension of the state of alarm. This needs to be ratified by Congress but PP has already said they are voting in favour so it does not matter.+

It does seem like the worst of the pandemic is behind us thankfully though, as the amounts of deaths and infections seem to have plateaued.

I believe the restriction on "only essencial workers are allowed to go to the street" will be lifted after the Easter holidays; though there will still be a "stay at home" order.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Mike88 on April 05, 2020, 11:56:04 AM
While polling has almost completely stopped, and the few polling we have does not seem very consistent; it does seem Sánchez is not getting a "rally with the flag" effect. However a poll from Galicia today (which had to cancel its election scheduled for April) does show a "rally with the flag effect" for regional premier Alberto Núñez Feijoo:

I've read that many newspapers and media outlets are boycotting the government's press conferences as questions seem to have to sent to the government before the conferences. Maybe this isn't helping Sanchéz poll numbers.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Skye on April 06, 2020, 04:27:06 AM
This may be a bit late, but I made a map of the November General election results in the city of Madrid by barrios. It's presented by ideological blocs, i.e. Blue = Right (PP+VOX+C's), Red = Left (PSOE+UP+MP). And yes, I'm using Atlas colors, because why not.

Anyway, the Ayuntamiento de Madrid had the results available by barrio and I obviously couldn't result the urge to map it. Hope you like it.

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: CumbrianLefty on April 06, 2020, 11:08:58 AM
Clear divide between East/West, as is the case with a lot of cities.

Is it connected with the prevailing wind direction in this instance, as is often true with the UK?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 06, 2020, 01:45:17 PM
Clear divide between East/West, as is the case with a lot of cities.

Is it connected with the prevailing wind direction in this instance, as is often true with the UK?

Actually the big divide in Madrid is North/South, not East/West, although as you notice a weaker East/West divide is still present.

Basically the southern neighbourhoods tend to be poorer and therefore vote for the left very hard while the northern neighbourhoods vote for the right. This even extends outside of the Madrid city limits.

Suburbs to the South of Madrid are left wing strongholds. Rivas-Vaciamadrid is relatively famous for IU controlling the mayorship there very often (I think it is the largest IU mayorship). However there are plenty of other southern left wing commuter towns/suburbs like Leganés, Getafe, Fuenlabrada or Parla.

Meanwhile, the Northern suburbs of Madrid lean towards the right (places like San Sebastián de los Reyes), though because Madrid is followed by mountains towards the north and northwest there are not that many suburbs in the north.

The most right wing suburbs are those located in the West indeed, with places like Pozuelo, Majadahonda or Las Rozas routinely giving the right 70% of the vote.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: TJ in Oregon on April 08, 2020, 01:27:37 AM
Is there a difference in climate between the wealthier and poorer areas? On google maps the northern and western suburbs look a little more lush.

I will say, Spain seems like it's one of most difficult countries to tell the upscale/right areas from the downscale/left areas just by appearance.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 08, 2020, 04:55:16 AM
Is there a difference in climate between the wealthier and poorer areas? On google maps the northern and western suburbs look a little more lush.

I will say, Spain seems like it's one of most difficult countries to tell the upscale/right areas from the downscale/left areas just by appearance.

Well, the wealthier suburbs should be closer to the "Central Range" mountains while the Southern suburbs are closer to Castille-La Mancha and the southern half of the "Meseta", so yeah, there is probably a difference in climate and geography.

Also on that point you might be interested on a combination of these 2 maps:

Spanish precincts by income: https://www.eldiario.es/economia/MAPA-dinero-vecinos-ingresos-calle_0_955405289.html

General election results by precinct: https://www.eldiario.es/politica/votaron-resultados-elecciones-generales-calle_0_962404599.html

So with this 2 maps combined you can probably see the strong correlation beween income and election results. And combining that with Google maps you can probably get an idea of how upscale and downscale areas look like.

Anyways, for Madrid in particular, here is how the look:

Rich/upscale areas

The neighbourhood of Salamanca in Madrid city proper (Madrid precinct 4-009; 91% right)
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4289068,-3.6824615,3a,75y,356.12h,102.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srhN5eFMOMqhoV9FJldMMdw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Most of Madrid's western suburbs* (Pozuelo de Alarcón precinct 1-019; 75% right)
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.418697,-3.8347416,3a,75y,39.54h,87.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sM36tnkgzMq_ZlGmWSacapg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

*: Note some of these are actual genuine gated communities, so Google Maps is not available. Also note you have to go to actual suburbs in these areas, as "downtown Pozuelo" is actually middle class or even leaning poor.

Poor/Downscale areas

Several neighbourhoods in Southern Madrid, most notably Vallecas, San Cristobal de los Ángeles and Usera (Madrid precinct 17-037; 75% left)
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3442557,-3.6913254,3a,75y,226.45h,97.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_r4lJaOESB0OwelouSAvLw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

These should be relatively good representations of how the upscale and downscale areas in Spain look like, at least in cities.

Rich people live either in suburbs with detached housing or in the 19th century city expansions just outside the old town center.

Poor people generally live in appartment blocks built during the 50s and 60s, often with precarious building conditions and what not (though there are some poor areas in Vallecas that do look nice from the outside, but are quite poor anyways)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Estrella on April 08, 2020, 01:55:38 PM
The class voting patterns and the parties' (especially PP) attitudes towards religion and social issues in general got me thinking: is there any information about religiosity by class? Basically, I know why urban upper class votes for the right, but I'm curious if it's despite their conservatism on non-economic matters, or if it's connected to it ("right wing on everything").


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Lechasseur on April 08, 2020, 04:30:21 PM
The class voting patterns and the parties' (especially PP) attitudes towards religion and social issues in general got me thinking: is there any information about religiosity by class? Basically, I know why urban upper class votes for the right, but I'm curious if it's despite their conservatism on non-economic matters, or if it's connected to it ("right wing on everything").

At anyrate in France I'd say the UMC are more religious. I'd assume it's the same in Spain.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on April 09, 2020, 07:44:49 AM
Is there a difference in climate between the wealthier and poorer areas? On google maps the northern and western suburbs look a little more lush.

I will say, Spain seems like it's one of most difficult countries to tell the upscale/right areas from the downscale/left areas just by appearance.

Madrid is one of the most unequal capitals in Europe and the class divide is easy to spot on geography. The lush in N and NW may well be Monte de El Pardo (a forest) or the housing typology (houses with gardens). Keep in mind Madrid is an European city with a higher population density, especially in central suburbs. Also, the areas closer to the Central Range are wetter and have more trees, while the southern plains are more arid

The class voting patterns and the parties' (especially PP) attitudes towards religion and social issues in general got me thinking: is there any information about religiosity by class? Basically, I know why urban upper class votes for the right, but I'm curious if it's despite their conservatism on non-economic matters, or if it's connected to it ("right wing on everything").
I
Spanish society has became fairly secular and the religious feelings are weak among young people. Older people have stronger religious convictions and this may be cortelated to the PP base of support (PP is the preferred party of people over 65, with support dropping sharply with the younger age groups) Vox, on the other hand, has the support of some ultra-conservative catholic sectors. The far right party is stronger in.middle aged groups (35-54)

Personally I am very angry at the disloyalty of the Spanish right in times of crisis. Despite some mistakes, the government is standing up to the people. PP and Vox are being miserable in their atracks, spreading fake news and creating dischord. Pablo Casado is clearly trailing the party led by Santiago Abascal, which benefits Vox at the expense of PP. The attitude of Inés Arrimadas is being more constructive, but her party is irrelevant now. Anyway I'm taking distance from constant news feed, in order to stay mentally healthy through this confinement.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 10, 2020, 06:27:48 AM
Personally I am very angry at the disloyalty of the Spanish right in times of crisis. Despite some mistakes, the government is standing up to the people. PP and Vox are being miserable in their atracks, spreading fake news and creating dischord. Pablo Casado is clearly trailing the party led by Santiago Abascal, which benefits Vox at the expense of PP. The attitude of Inés Arrimadas is being more constructive, but her party is irrelevant now. Anyway I'm taking distance from constant news feed, in order to stay mentally healthy through this confinement.

Yeah I totally agree, The opposition is being a very hard opposition, and several tweets and affirmations from Vox in particular are horrible.

However just like you I am trying to avoid most news related to the virus, as I am sick (lol) and tired of them.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on April 11, 2020, 12:08:03 AM
Congress backed PM's request for a new extension of the state of alarm, amidst heavy attacks from rightwing opposition

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-04-10/congress-backs-pms-request-to-extend-confinement-measures-in-spain-until-april-26-with-a-further-15-days-likely.html

Quote
 

Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez secured approval from the Congress of Deputies on Thursday for his decision to extend the state of alarm in Spain and current confinement measures until April 26. The move, which will keep residents of Spain mostly locked down in their homes for an additional two weeks from the previous deadline of April 12, is aimed at curbing the spread of the coronavirus.



During an acrimonious debate in the lower house of parliament over his government’s management of the crisis, Sánchez told Congress he is “convinced” that before the new deadline ends, he will have to ask the legislature “for another extension of 15 days, because by then we will not have put an end to the pandemic.” This would push the end of the state of alarm to May 10. It is not yet known, however, what the exact confinement conditions would be under this extension. The Spanish government has hinted that it is considering a very gradual deescalation of the measures (...)
 



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Skye on April 14, 2020, 03:05:44 PM
It's map time again! I know this it's late, and the map is a bit messy, but screw it. Here's a neighborhood level map of the 2019 Madrid City Council election, by ideological blocs.

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 22, 2020, 04:05:52 AM
Ok, so for some reason today I decided to look up the distribution of votes by age and gender, to see how they compare and what not.

I actually found an interesting report on that by El Español, so no need to actually calculate myself. And so, here it is:

()

This basically just confirms everything I have said up to this point but it is still a really fun watch.

So by gender, PSOE does much better among women than men, while Vox and UP do much better among men than women. Not much difference for Cs or PP.

As for age, PSOE and PP do better among old people while UP does better among young people. Weird correlations for Cs and Vox, though interestingly Vox does worst among the old.

Personally, I think we should only allow women boomers to vote and just disenfranchise everyone else :P


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: President Punxsutawney Phil on April 22, 2020, 04:08:38 AM
Why does Vox do better among men, while PP and Cs have no major gender gap at all? I assume it's a side-effect of the age gap?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 22, 2020, 04:42:06 AM
Why does Vox do better among men, while PP and Cs have no major gender gap at all? I assume it's a side-effect of the age gap?

Maybe, though also I suppose Cs and PP are seen as "moderate" while Vox very obviously isn't. I think back before the Vox rise they both had a male electorate (though nowhere near as much as Vox)

In my view women do not just lean to the left; but rather they tend to lean towards more moderate parties, while men tend to vote more for the extremes.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Skye on April 22, 2020, 05:02:54 AM
Why does Vox do better among men, while PP and Cs have no major gender gap at all? I assume it's a side-effect of the age gap?

If you know Spanish, this article details the profile of an average Vox voter: http://agendapublica.elpais.com/el-perfil-del-votante-de-vox/

Also, isn't the alt-right in America composed mainly by younger males? Vox is soooort of like that.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: President Punxsutawney Phil on April 22, 2020, 05:08:03 AM
Why does Vox do better among men, while PP and Cs have no major gender gap at all? I assume it's a side-effect of the age gap?

If you know Spanish, this article details the profile of an average Vox voter: http://agendapublica.elpais.com/el-perfil-del-votante-de-vox/

Also, isn't the alt-right in America composed mainly by younger males? Vox is soooort of like that.
That's a decent comparison.
Also, good find! It was imformative. Muchos gracias.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: CumbrianLefty on April 22, 2020, 09:26:55 AM
Vox does worst amongst old people - presumably because they actually remember the Franco era?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Intell on April 22, 2020, 09:29:33 AM
Vox does worst amongst old people - presumably because they actually remember the Franco era?

Don't radical right parties do worst amongst the old throughout Western Europe? It's generally the case that the very young (18-24) and the old (65+) have lowest vote share for radical right parties.

The gender divide being especially large amongst the youth is interesting but I think is also a phenomenon you see throughout the western  world?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Oryxslayer on April 22, 2020, 10:31:29 AM
Vox does worst amongst old people - presumably because they actually remember the Franco era?

Don't radical right parties do worst amongst the old throughout Western Europe? It's generally the case that the very young (18-24) and the old (65+) have lowest vote share for radical right parties.

The gender divide being especially large amongst the youth is interesting but I think is also a phenomenon you see throughout the western  world?

Yes, this is because the very young activists prefer Linke/Podemos style parties, and the very old are loyal to the declining Center-Right/Social-Left dichotomous machines of yesteryear.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 22, 2020, 11:27:53 AM
Vox does worst amongst old people - presumably because they actually remember the Franco era?

Maybe but I do not think this is the entire truth as plenty of old people would have a positive opinion of the Franco era.

I think it is just that older people have a sort of loyalty to the old 2 party machines that young people do not have. Oryxslayer is correct in this.


The gender divide being especially large amongst the youth is interesting but I think is also a phenomenon you see throughout the western  world?

Yeah the gender divide being especially large among the youth is interesting. And indeed it seems a common phenomenon throughout the western world.

However I do not think this fully applies in Spain? For this comparison in Spain, we get the following results:

Young men: 36-36 tie
Young women: 40-20 Left
Gap of 20 points

Old men: 47-39 right
Old women: 52-41 left
Gap of 19 points

So the difference does not seem all that significant to me? (it does mean that old people are basically even while young people lean to the left but that is not all that surprising tbh)

Granted the methodology is not great and I should probably be extrapolating all these values to 100% (it is kind of hard when you do not have data for secessionists and/or abstentions)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: CumbrianLefty on April 22, 2020, 11:39:07 AM
Vox does worst amongst old people - presumably because they actually remember the Franco era?

Maybe but I do not think this is the entire truth as plenty of old people would have a positive opinion of the Franco era.

Actually, roughly what proportion of Spaniards *are* positive about Franco?

Its a sensitive topic I know, but surely some polling has been done on it down the years.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Former President tack50 on April 22, 2020, 11:47:20 AM
Vox does worst amongst old people - presumably because they actually remember the Franco era?

Maybe but I do not think this is the entire truth as plenty of old people would have a positive opinion of the Franco era.

Actually, roughly what proportion of Spaniards *are* positive about Franco?

Its a sensitive topic I know, but surely some polling has been done on it down the years.

Actually we have not had a proper poll directly asking about the Franco dictatorship since 2008.

Doing a trip down memory lane, polls asking directly on Franco's "approval rating" in 2005 found that 51% of Spaniards had a negative opinion of him. And as you would expect, his approval rating was better among old people and low among the young.

https://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2005/11/19/espana/1132371627.html

The 2008 poll, with different methodology, found that a whopping 58% of Spaniards agreed with the sentence "Francoism had boths its positives and its negatives". 42% of Spaniards were against prosecuting crimes done by the dictatorship

https://www.abc.es/espana/abci-no-pregunta-sobre-franco-desde-hace-diez-anos-201808220158_noticia.html

Finally we saw a tiny bit of polling in 2018 when Franco was removed from his tomb. 57% of Spaniards were in favour and 26% against; with the partisan breakdown you would expect. More interestingly 13% of Spaniards disagreed that Franco was a dictator.

https://www.lasexta.com/noticias/nacional/barometro-lasexta-un-374-de-votantes-del-pp-y-un-585-de-los-de-vox-creen-que-franco-no-fue-un-dictador_201910245db1600c0cf2d4f059b98a13.html

In general it seems around 25% of Spaniards should have a relatively positve image of Franco, with probably a couple more that have a "neutral" opinion on him.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on April 24, 2020, 07:32:43 AM
Basque Country lehendakari (premier) Iñigo Urkullu is considering to call elections in July, avoiding a possible pandemic resurgence next autumn (term expires in September). Urkullu will talk with the other parties next week. Galicia premier Alberto Núñez Feijóo haven't said anything, but he could follow Urkullu eventually. A new extension of the State of Emergency begins within two days with a somewhat relaxed lockdown. A PNV-PSOE coalition governs in the Basque Country, while PP governs Galicia with a majority


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 04, 2020, 04:07:25 AM
We finally have a bit of polling and it seems that the government is dropping in approval, with PSOE and UP going down from 2019. PP also seems to be going up.

Here is an example, though other polls are finding similar results:

NC Report for La Razón

()

Right: 154 seats; 44.8%
Left: 147 seats; 39.3%

This poll, while not great news for the left also shows why it will be hard for the right to actually win. Basically, with a popular vote gap of more than 5 points (albeit probably more like 3.5 points once you account for whatever is left of Mas País) the right is still more than 20 seats away from a majority.

Under an scenario like this, Sánchez would need an explicit yes vote from ERC and Bildu, which is tough but doable I suppose. Meanwhile there would be no way for a hypothetical PM Casado; and there would still be none until he was at at the very least 172 seats or something like that.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: CumbrianLefty on May 04, 2020, 07:24:19 AM
So not that much of a "virus rally" for the Spanish government, like the US but unlike many others.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 04, 2020, 07:48:12 AM
So not that much of a "virus rally" for the Spanish government, like the US but unlike many others.

Indeed, if anything there is a slight "reverse virus rally" where the government is losing votes. Then again I cannot think of any event in modern Spanish history that actually was followed by a "rally with the flag" effect.

The most famous example of the Madrid bombings infamously resulted in the incumbent party losing but that is also because of Aznar's massive mistake with the handling of the attacks, blaming ETA and not Al Qaeda despite the evidence to the contrary.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: CumbrianLefty on May 04, 2020, 07:58:02 AM
So not that much of a "virus rally" for the Spanish government, like the US but unlike many others.

Indeed, if anything there is a slight "reverse virus rally" where the government is losing votes. Then again I cannot think of any event in modern Spanish history that actually was followed by a "rally with the flag" effect.

The most famous example of the Madrid bombings infamously resulted in the incumbent party losing but that is also because of Aznar's massive mistake with the handling of the attacks, blaming ETA and not Al Qaeda despite the evidence to the contrary.

Yes, you do wonder if things *might* have been different had he been honest then.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 04, 2020, 08:10:49 AM
So not that much of a "virus rally" for the Spanish government, like the US but unlike many others.

Indeed, if anything there is a slight "reverse virus rally" where the government is losing votes. Then again I cannot think of any event in modern Spanish history that actually was followed by a "rally with the flag" effect.

The most famous example of the Madrid bombings infamously resulted in the incumbent party losing but that is also because of Aznar's massive mistake with the handling of the attacks, blaming ETA and not Al Qaeda despite the evidence to the contrary.

Yes, you do wonder if things *might* have been different had he been honest then.

My personal theory is that polls were wrong in 2004 and not just because of the terrorist attacks. There were plenty of people angry at the Irak war, and both the 2003 local elections as well as the 2004 EU elections (only a couple months after the general elections) resulted in PSOE victories.

Now, we will obviously never know but I personally think that had the attacks not happened, probably ends up in a PP victory, but it would be a razor thin one of like 1 point (not unlike 1996); certainly losing its overall majority.

Of course this is all especulation. But "no terrorist attacks in 2004" is certainly one of the more interesting Alternate History scenarios for modern Spain, and I have had a couple conversations on it in fact.

There are certainly others I can think of (Aznar killed in 1995; González somehow winning in 1996; or for more recent ones, UP actually beating PSOE and becoming the main party of the Spanish left); but 2004 is certainly one of the more interesting elections for alternate history.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 05, 2020, 08:28:43 PM
Apparently there is a Spanish version of the Canada/Israel meme, so enjoy I suppose! :P

()

I am personally at the quad point between socialist, leftist cuñado, republican and europist


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Skye on May 06, 2020, 05:14:43 AM
Apparently there is a Spanish version of the Canada/Israel meme, so enjoy I suppose! :P

()

I am personally at the quad point between socialist, leftist cuñado, republican and europist

Why are the Basque Nationalists on the far right?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 06, 2020, 06:11:16 AM
Apparently there is a Spanish version of the Canada/Israel meme, so enjoy I suppose! :P

I am personally at the quad point between socialist, leftist cuñado, republican and europist

Why are the Basque Nationalists on the far right?

I have absolutely no idea tbh. I suppose that "because they care only about money" or something like that lol

Either way I did not make this.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on May 06, 2020, 07:10:02 AM
The government negotiated in extremis the support of Cs and PNV for a new extension of the State of Alarm. Basque nationalists gave their support once the government agreed to consult with regional governments de-escalation measures in the different territories, instead of the central command's diktat (minister of Health). The support of Arrimadas caused the Cs membership resignation of former Congress spokesman Juan Carlos Girauta (good riddance!). PP will abstain, despite Casado threatened to oppose creating a sanitary and economic chaos (finally averted by the support of Cs and PNV). ERC withdraws support and votes against with the other Catalan separatists and Vox. Remarkably En Comu Podem spokesman Jaume Asens thanked Cs for its 'responsibility', despite Asens and Cs leader Inés Arrimadas are politically on opposing sides.

The coalition government is not riding high, but don't forget to mention that La Razón and NC Report are strongly biased towards the PP. Anyway Casado is smelling the blood, so he is being extremely aggresive. He has apparently good polling (growing at the Vox expense) and there are political and economic circles in Madrid wishing to topple the government since Day One. My opinion is that Casado is being miserable, because he is going far beyond the logical criticism of government's mistakes. But Vox is going the furthest reaching grotesque extremes, so maybe some rightwingers are coming back to the PP ashamed by the foolish nonsrnse (even if you hate leftists, claiming the government is killing old people is too much). Madrid premier Isabel Diaz Ayuso is also worthy of mention, not only because of the management of retirement homes in her region (thousands of dead). Ayuso thinks that it's OK that poor children eat pizza... I miss a certain patriotism in these politicians and envy Portugal for its responsible opposition. At least Arrimadas is apparently moving to the centre. Being constructive and reasonable does not equate o unconditional support. Also, the important game is in the negotiations within the EU and I don't see Casado defending the nation's interest

EDIT  Metroscopia pollster is measuring public ipinion on a daly basis through this crisis. Apparently the government started with good approval rates, but figures dropped at the peak of the curve, improved when the curve stabilized and began to go down... but approval rates dropped again due to blatant communication errors related to the way children would be allowed go out with their parents. Polling figures say that a vast majority supports major agreements between parties. Possibly because of that Inés Arrimadas increased her approval rates in the last times. Rumours say PP is polling well, but there's a large number of undecided in these times of confusion. I mean pollsters make estimations, but we must take them with some grains of salt due to the changing situation and the big amount of undecided.

The government is not apparently in good shape, firstly because of the brutal impact of the crisis and,secondly because of errors. However, I don't think we are in a situation to determine there's a consolidated trend against or in favour the government. PP and certain Madrid circles are confident that Pedro Sánchez will fall in 2021 due to the terrible economic situation. I have not a clue, just wonder whether is pissible that Casado reaches power without Vox and the consequent democratic involution. The other way to reach power again would be a grand,coalition or a concentration government...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on May 06, 2020, 10:27:50 AM
Apparently there is a Spanish version of the Canada/Israel meme, so enjoy I suppose! :P

I am personally at the quad point between socialist, leftist cuñado, republican and europist

Why are the Basque Nationalists on the far right?

I have absolutely no idea tbh. I suppose that "because they care only about money" or something like that lol

Either way I did not make this.


How many Hapsburg nostalgics, CNT-FAI anarchists and Carlists remain in Spain nowadays? I would argue close to zero, even though I have met some anarchists (but they are very few). There are plenty of 'cuñados' and bad internet memes, that's for sure


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: CumbrianLefty on May 06, 2020, 11:36:33 AM
Apparently there is a Spanish version of the Canada/Israel meme, so enjoy I suppose! :P

I am personally at the quad point between socialist, leftist cuñado, republican and europist

Why are the Basque Nationalists on the far right?

I have absolutely no idea tbh. I suppose that "because they care only about money" or something like that lol

Either way I did not make this.


How many Hapsburg nostalgics, CNT-FAI anarchists and Carlists remain in Spain nowadays? I would argue close to zero, even though I have met some anarchists (but they are very few). There are plenty of 'cuñados' and bad internet memes, that's for sure

36 different categories, so a few will be fairly niche by definition ;)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on May 06, 2020, 01:23:06 PM
The government saves the day passing state of alarm extension in Congress

178 Yes: PSOE, UP, Cs, PNV, MP, Compromis, CC, PRC, NC, Teruel Existe

75 No: VOX, ERC, JxCAT, CUP

97 Abstain: PP, Bildu, Navarra Suma

PP backed previous extensions, but Casado pressed the fragile coalition government threatening to vote against. This move, alongside ERC moving from abstention to No, forced Sánchez to negotiate with Cs and PNV. Finally Casado had to justify the PP abstention because of the concessions made by the government to Cs and PNV, which is weird. ERC voting against is possibly a consequence of competition with the other Catalan separatists, while its Basque partner Bildu abstained. The government's deal with Cs angered ERC on the one hand and Vox on the opposing side. Momentary relief for Sánchez and momentary tactical defeat for Casado. However, the government lacks a solid majority, as the Cs and PNV support is conditioned. Arrimadas said she's still in the opposition and the government has only 155 seats, but offers to negotiate a reconstruction budget. The situation is extremely complicated for Sánchez, even though he clearly works better under extreme pressure. Needless to say the economic perspective is gloomy and that's not his fault, but he will be dead by next year unless some relief cones from the outside...

This month the government could approve the so-called Vital Minimum Income, opposed by the right but necessary for the poorer fanilies under current circumstances



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on May 06, 2020, 02:28:09 PM
Apparently there is a Spanish version of the Canada/Israel meme, so enjoy I suppose! :P

I am personally at the quad point between socialist, leftist cuñado, republican and europist

Why are the Basque Nationalists on the far right?

I have absolutely no idea tbh. I suppose that "because they care only about money" or something like that lol

Either way I did not make this.


How many Hapsburg nostalgics, CNT-FAI anarchists and Carlists remain in Spain nowadays? I would argue close to zero, even though I have met some anarchists (but they are very few). There are plenty of 'cuñados' and bad internet memes, that's for sure

36 different categories, so a few will be fairly niche by definition ;)

Contemporary societies and markets are increasingly fragmented into multiple niches. My problem with this meme is simply that it's not very good. Some of the types are way too anachronistic, such as the Carlist, the CNT-FAI member and obviously the Falangist: they only exist as relics from the past (I was in awe when an old anarchist friend once told me that Durruti's FAI still exists!) The Francoist boomer or the Francoist elder make sense, as there's still people saying that life under Franco was better and that's possibly a VOX base of support. Some of the types are not very well pirtrayed, such as 'The Rojo'. The word 'rojo' means ''red'' and applies to all leftists or republicans, generally as a Francoist insult. 'Facha' is just the opposite to 'Rojo', it's a derogatory word equivalent to ''fascist'' used by leftists to insult Francoists and rightwingers. For instance Vox leader Santiago Abascal is deemed a ''facha'', although the Podemos leader Pablo Iglesias told him recently he's not a fascist but a ''parasite''. The expression 'cuñado' (brother in law) is not used to describe a hack as the meme says, but to ridiculize certain ignorant people talking like experts in all subjects and pontificating about everything. Of course a pandemic is an excellent occasion to show the epidemiologist inside every one of us (we don't have a clue actually, we are just pathetic 'cuñados')


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: mileslunn on May 06, 2020, 02:41:18 PM
How likely is it that the budget will pass?  And if it fails will there be another election which could be dangerous if there is a second wave or do they just rollover the budget again from previous years which could problematic?  I think though after a vaccine is developed could be an election although doesn't look like either side would win a majority but things could change.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on May 09, 2020, 06:53:30 AM
How likely is it that the budget will pass?  And if it fails will there be another election which could be dangerous if there is a second wave or do they just rollover the budget again from previous years which could problematic?  I think though after a vaccine is developed could be an election although doesn't look like either side would win a majority but things could change.

Budget: Hard to tell. Last vote in Congress showed ERC is distancing from the government and approaching that strange convergence between the Spanish right and the Puigdemont faction of Catalan separatism. On the other hand, the move made by Cs opens new possibilities to negotiate a 'reconstruction budget' and also with regards the European stage (Cs is still within the EU liberals), even though the Arrimadas support to the state of alarm extension is by no means the beginning of a stable alliance. With regards the PP-Cs coalition governments in some regions, they will remain in place. Right now there is a crisis within the Madrid regional goverment led by Isabel Diaz Ayuso and the relationship between partners is strained, but Cs is not going to break

Elections: I think that by no means a general election will take place without a vaccine, but without a budget passed it's hard to see the government lasting beyond 2021

As part of the agreement with the PNV, Basque elections could take place in July 2020. By the moment the Galicia premier is not seconding. In what regards Catslonia, ERC would like elections as soon as possible (Puigdemont and Torra are not interested at all and election date will be potponed as far as possible)

In the news: next week half of Spain will move to phase 1 of de-escalation, but Madrid and Barcelona will stay in phase 0. All regions except Catalonia and Castilla y León requested passing to the next phase. The administration has rejected the Madrid region’s request to transition to Phase 1, “opting to wait until its primary care detection system is more robust”

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-05-08/spanish-government-announces-areas-that-will-move-to-the-next-phase-of-coronavirus-deescalation-plan-on-monday.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: parochial boy on May 09, 2020, 09:55:39 AM

That alliance needs to continue :D


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on May 09, 2020, 02:38:05 PM

These alignments are undoubtedly one of the wonders of Spanish politics

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-05-06/spanish-congress-approves-fourth-extension-to-state-of-alarm.html

Quote
Sánchez, who announced this morning that the country will have an official period of mourning for its Covid-19 victims “when most of the country is in Phase 1 of the deescalation,” sought to underscore his message that the state of alarm is necessary to defeat the coronavirus and that this legal tool is not encroaching on citizens’ freedoms.

“All rights remain intact, not a single liberty has been violated. Just two of them have been limited, freedom of movement and to ensure public health and save lives,” he said. “We need to limit freedom of movement a few weeks more.” Sánchez insisted this is meant to prevent the spread of the virus, not “as a ruse to curtail liberties.”

But his words did not appear to convince PP leader Casado, who announced that because of the government’s most recent concessions, his 88 lawmakers would abstain rather than cast no votes. Casado was highly critical of the government during his speech, telling Sánchez that “the exceptional situation does not allow for a constitutional dictatorship.”  

Pedro Sánchez has many flaws and he should treat better his parliamentary allies (he made the mistake to neglect dialogue with the Basque government, while ERC believed mistakenly the PNV was about to topple the government), but he's not a ''constitutional dictator'' in the fashion of Viktor Orban (whose authoritarianism Pablo Casado's party refuses to condemn)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Skye on May 14, 2020, 07:32:43 AM
So about electomanía's ElectoPanel... I know it's not the best thing to have around because of the methodology (I think it's an open-access online poll), but they recently began publishing municipal-level estimates. I think it's interesting, even if you just think about the municipal numbers as just "educated guesses". Though they weren't too far off in the Nov. 2019 election.

Anyways, here's this week's poll. It shows the right with a decent lead: https://electomania.es/ep13my20


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on May 14, 2020, 11:52:39 AM
So about electomanía's ElectoPanel... I know it's not the best thing to have around because of the methodology (I think it's an open-access online poll), but they recently began publishing municipal-level estimates. I think it's interesting, even if you just think about the municipal numbers as just "educated guesses". Though they weren't too far off in the Nov. 2019 election.

Anyways, here's this week's poll. It shows the right with a decent lead: https://electomania.es/ep13my20

I don't trust Electomania, rven though they are sometimes spotted on (not always). They lack transparency and accountability, imo. GAD3 pollster is releasing a 'barometer' for the conservative ABC newspaper. Narciso Michavila leans to the right, but is a good professional

https://www.gad3.com/single-post/2020/05/11/Nueva-entrega-del-Barometro-ABCGAD3-11-de-mayo

It seems that Feijóo is considering to call elections in July alongside Urkullu, so anyway we'll have polls for Galicia and Basque Country and actual election results to comment



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 14, 2020, 12:09:39 PM
So about electomanía's ElectoPanel... I know it's not the best thing to have around because of the methodology (I think it's an open-access online poll), but they recently began publishing municipal-level estimates. I think it's interesting, even if you just think about the municipal numbers as just "educated guesses". Though they weren't too far off in the Nov. 2019 election.

Anyways, here's this week's poll. It shows the right with a decent lead: https://electomania.es/ep13my20

Yeah, their methodology is not the greatest but it is still fun nontheless.

Anyways looking at the municipal level estimates is very fun, especially the "flips" from their last "panel". This one in particular seems to come with 2 big cities flipping: Las Palmas de Gran Canaria (my own home town) and Zaragoza


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on May 15, 2020, 04:52:17 PM
Spanish government passed a decree aimed at combating judicial standstill. Interestingly the majority was secured with the ERC support and Cs opposition. As posted before, the last state of alarm extension was passed with Cs support and ERC opposition. However, the Arrimadas party backed a second decree. These changing parliamentary majorities are called 'variable geometry' in Spain

https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2020-05-13/spain-passes-decree-aimed-at-combatting-standstill-in-justice-system-due-to-coronavirus-crisis.html

Quote
Spain’s Congress of Deputies has approved a government decree adapting the justice system to the Covid-19 crisis, which has brought legal activity nearly to a standstill.

The decree introduces new working practices and procedures to keep the judiciary functioning. The need to overhaul Spain’s slow legal system has long been the subject of political debate, but little had been done to date. Now, the coronavirus pandemic has prompted new responses such as video hearings for labor and family court proceedings.

Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez of the Socialist Party (PSOE), who heads a minority government in coalition with junior partner Unidas Podemos, has managed to secure enough congressional support for the decree despite opposition from right-of-center groups such as the Popular Party (PP) and Ciudadanos (Citizens).

Instead, the decree passed on Wednesday with 178 votes in favor, thanks to support from two smaller regional groups, the Basque Nationalist Party (PNV) and the Catalan Republican Left (ERC). This latter party did not support Sánchez’s recent request for a fourth extension to the state of alarm that underpins Spain’s gradual deescalation measures.

The government has also successfully pushed through a second decree containing emergency measures against the effects of the coronavirus crisis on jobs and the economy. Ciudadanos backed this second initiative, which passed with 201 votes in favor, but it did not vote for the justice decree. However, Ciudadanos did support prolonging the government’s emergency powers last week (...)

The region of Madrid and Metropolitan Barcelona will stay in Phase 0 this week despite the protests of Madrid premier Isabel Díaz Ayuso (involved in a controversy on the rent of a luxury apartment where she was confined after testing positive for coronavirus). I think Ayuso is following Trump's handbook on communication strategy advised by Miguel Ángel Rodríguez, a man who worked for José María Aznar since late 1980s. According to a GAD3 poll for the conservative ABC, the controversial and confrontational Ayuso would win handily regional elections. However, according to Metroscopia a vast majority contradicts Ayuso opposing to accelerate deescalation in Madrid. Given these contradictory signals, the changing situation and the extreme confusion, I'd take polls with loads of salt

Anyways looking at the municipal level estimates is very fun, especially the "flips" from their last "panel". This one in particular seems to come with 2 big cities flipping: Las Palmas de Gran Canaria (my own home town) and Zaragoza

I doubt the Electomania team has a clue with regard politics in the Canary Islands (most people in mainland Spain is completely ignorant on many aspects of the islands). Also, local elections are more difficult to predict than general elections. Anyway I don't have a high opinion of LPGC mayor Augusto Hidalgo (I admit he's rather unknown to me, despite he's been mayor for several years), but I appreciate the Canary Islands premier Ángel Víctor Torres. The PSOE regional leader showed remarkable leadership skills during the terrible Gran Canaria fires in August 2019.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on May 16, 2020, 09:44:13 AM
Former IU leader (1989-2000) and mayor of Córdoba (1979-1986) Julio Anguita has died. Anguita (aged 78) was hospitalized week ago for a cardiorespiratory arrest

https://elpais.com/espana/2020-05-16/julio-anguita-lider-historico-de-izquierda-unida-muere-a-los-78-anos.html?autoplay=1

Pedro Sánchez will request a last extension to the state of alarm

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-05-16/spanish-pm-will-request-one-last-extension-of-the-state-of-alarm-this-time-for-a-month.html

Quote
As has become customary during the coronavirus crisis, Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez made his weekly televised address on Saturday afternoon to offer an update on the current situation regarding the pandemic. He announced that he would be requesting a last extension to the state of alarm, this time for a month, and also said that the deescalation process could be completed in half of the country by the beginning of summer.

“This week we have received the first results from the seroprevalence survey,” he began by saying, in reference to testing being carried out among the Spanish population to determine how many people have been infected by the coronavirus. “It has brought three important pieces of data: the infection has affected different territories in very different ways, only 5% of Spaniards have been infected, and third, the death rate is at 1%.”

He also insisted that the state of alarm, which was implemented on March 14 in a bid to slow the spread of the coronavirus, had worked. “The path that we are taking is the only one possible,” he said, in reference to the use of the state of alarm to give the government special powers, including recentralizing healthcare from the regions to Madrid, and introducing the confinement measures that are still in place, and which have been among the strictest in the world.

The Socialist Party (PSOE) leader argued that the scientific facts have shown that a “herd immunity” approach would not have been successful, and defended the need to limit mobility and social contact. “That’s the logic behind the deescalation process,” he explained.


The revolt of the 1% against the 'coronavirus oppression' and the 'social-communist' regime. Interesting read

https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2020-05-16/the-revolt-of-the-1-against-the-coronavirus-oppression-in-spain.html

Quote
Residents of Madrid’s upscale Salamanca neighborhood have been making headlines since Sunday with a series of street protests against the government over its handling of the coronavirus crisis.

Demonstrators have been using the words “dictatorial” and “oppression” to describe their situation under the ongoing lockdown. Madrid, the epicenter of the coronavirus pandemic, is still in the early stages of a national deescalation plan that is expected to end in late June, if there are no new spikes in transmission.

The protests reflect a view, held by some in Spain, that the state of alarm introduced in mid-March to combat the coronavirus pandemic is really an excuse for the central government to grab extra powers. Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez, of the Socialist Party (PSOE), heads a minority government and he has been facing growing difficulty to secure enough congressional support for back-to-back extensions to the state of alarm. 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: CumbrianLefty on May 16, 2020, 11:39:01 AM
It must feel strange for the 1% to not be totally getting their way on everything, tbf.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on May 16, 2020, 03:04:58 PM
It must feel strange for the 1% to not be totally getting their way on everything, tbf.

It's funny because some of the protesters are actually Francoist (Vox is the second party in Núñez de Balboa street and the left gets below 10% of the vote there). Apparently Madrid premier Isabel Díaz Ayuso as seen at her luxury apartment hitting a saucepan, in protest against the 'social-communist' government. People in the Spanish right always look at the Republican Party and the communication strategies of the American right. Trump is an inspiration for Vox and for Ayuso


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: EastAnglianLefty on May 17, 2020, 04:53:30 AM
Quote
“We are in a dictatorial system, and I know what I’m talking about,” said Magdalena, a local resident who works as a lawyer.

Was I the only one mentally adding, "because I used to work for Franco" to this comment?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on May 17, 2020, 09:39:01 AM
Quote
“We are in a dictatorial system, and I know what I’m talking about,” said Magdalena, a local resident who works as a lawyer.

Was I the only one mentally adding, "because I used to work for Franco" to this comment?

Yes, I got the same impression. That Magdalena reminds me a bit someone that I know, a 60-something woman who openly says she's Francoist and supports Vox. The issue is that, despite our vast political differences, we are able to have a polite conversation and even to have a beer in a bar (providing that we avoid to engage in a political discussion, of course). I mean, there are still Francoists in Spain and a few of them (not all) can be polite enough to have a chat with them. The hyperbolic style of some politicians and the political polarization can give the impression that Spain is on the brink of another civil war, but currently the Spanish society is fairly tolerant. But political tension and confrontational attitudes (as well the social network poison) can affect the society during these times of crisis. The issue is that, despite the harsh rhetoric and insults, some politicians from opposing sides have a good personal relationship (case of Pablo Casado and Pablo Iglesias). So the only reason to fuel tension is electioneering. This tension (''crispación'' in Spanish) is not something new, it dates back to the 1990s and worsened after the Madrid bombings of 2004 (the PP launched a campaign against Zapatero resorting to conspiracy theories)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: CumbrianLefty on May 17, 2020, 10:05:34 AM
and worsened after the Madrid bombings of 2004 (the PP launched a campaign against Zapatero resorting to conspiracy theories)

Tbf it can't have been pleasant to have been caught red-handed days before an election like that.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on May 17, 2020, 11:19:53 AM
and worsened after the Madrid bombings of 2004 (the PP launched a campaign against Zapatero resorting to conspiracy theories)

Tbf it can't have been pleasant to have been caught red-handed days before an election like that.

I don't think "caught red-handed" is the right expression. The Spanish government decided in those tragic moments not to face the Al Qaeda authorship, believing that PP could win the election telling people it was ETA. People felt cheated and a wave of indignation spread through the country. Instead of admitting that error and assuming responsibility, the Spanish right launched a campaign aimed at delegitimizing Zapatero. Aznar wasn't "caught red-handed" as he didn't put the bombs in the trains, but tried to mislead people and is fully responsible for that. Alfredo Pérez Rubalcaba, the unsuccessful PSOE leader who lost to Rajoy in 2011, made a sentence in those days that still upsets the PP: "we deserve a government which doesn't lie to us". The Rubalcaba sentence had a devastating effect because it was said in the right moment. Pablo Casado repeated that sentence recently to tell Pedro Sánchez that he's a liar, but it sounds out of comtext. It's pretty obvious the PP is still resentful for that defeat


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 18, 2020, 07:36:55 AM
Galician premier Alberto Núñez Feijóo has finally called the new date for the next Galician regional election, for the 12th of July.

It is extremely likely that Basque premier Íñigo Urkullu will follow suit and call the election for the same date.

Edit: Yup, Basque election confirmed for the same day


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: CumbrianLefty on May 18, 2020, 07:50:46 AM
and worsened after the Madrid bombings of 2004 (the PP launched a campaign against Zapatero resorting to conspiracy theories)

Tbf it can't have been pleasant to have been caught red-handed days before an election like that.

I don't think "caught red-handed" is the right expression. The Spanish government decided in those tragic moments not to face the Al Qaeda authorship, believing that PP could win the election telling people it was ETA. People felt cheated and a wave of indignation spread through the country. Instead of admitting that error and assuming responsibility, the Spanish right launched a campaign aimed at delegitimizing Zapatero. Aznar wasn't "caught red-handed" as he didn't put the bombs in the trains, but tried to mislead people and is fully responsible for that. Alfredo Pérez Rubalcaba, the unsuccessful PSOE leader who lost to Rajoy in 2011, made a sentence in those days that still upsets the PP: "we deserve a government which doesn't lie to us". The Rubalcaba sentence had a devastating effect because it was said in the right moment. Pablo Casado repeated that sentence recently to tell Pedro Sánchez that he's a liar, but it sounds out of comtext. It's pretty obvious the PP is still resentful for that defeat

In this instance "caught red-handed" referred to the fibbing of course. I'm not one of the fringe cranks who suggests governments routinely bomb their own people in "false flag" operations ;)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: mileslunn on May 18, 2020, 11:43:33 PM
Galician premier Alberto Núñez Feijóo has finally called the new date for the next Galician regional election, for the 12th of July.

It is extremely likely that Basque premier Íñigo Urkullu will follow suit and call the election for the same date.

Edit: Yup, Basque election confirmed for the same day

With Spain still having over 1,000 new cases a day (they did fall below that today for one day), wouldn't it be better to wait until number of new cases close to zero?  Or at least ensure they have a mail in ballot option for those who don't want to risk going out, especially elderly and immune compromised.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 19, 2020, 06:06:59 AM
Galician premier Alberto Núñez Feijóo has finally called the new date for the next Galician regional election, for the 12th of July.

It is extremely likely that Basque premier Íñigo Urkullu will follow suit and call the election for the same date.

Edit: Yup, Basque election confirmed for the same day

With Spain still having over 1,000 new cases a day (they did fall below that today for one day), wouldn't it be better to wait until number of new cases close to zero?  Or at least ensure they have a mail in ballot option for those who don't want to risk going out, especially elderly and immune compromised.

In theory all elections in Spain have a vote by mail option, though it is opt in and not opt out.

As for why the election is so soon, common wisdom seems to suggest that Basque premier Urkullu wants the election as soon as possible so that he can run on what a great job the PNV has done over the past years and what not; instead of having to run with a bad economy. PNV has not had the greatest of performances during the coronavirus and they were coming off a couple corruption scandals.

PNV will win no doubt about it, but I suppose that the past few scandals will mean it will just be a standard landslide and not a massive blowout

As for Galicia, Feijoo seems to want the election on the same day as the Basques so that the Basque campaign overshadows the Galician campaign. He has done a good job with the coronavirus and does not really have many scandals as of late so having an early election also helps.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on May 19, 2020, 01:06:44 PM
The number of cases in Spain is dropping and the impact of the pandemic has been uneven, with some hardly beaten regions (Madrid, Catalonia, the two Castiles) and others relatively untouched (Asturias, Murcia, the islands and autonomous cities). The reasons to call regional elections this summer in Galicia and Basque Country are varied. Feijóo and Urkullu obviously think that calling elections is good for them, otherwise they would have invoked health emergency to postpone elections indefinitely. But they consider that elections can be held in relatively safe conditions, as it's expected the number of cases will be at the lowest point in summer. It's also true that the term expires in October 2020 in both regions and there exists the possibility of a new outbreak in autumn. Maybe postponing elections beyond the end of term could create some legal problems. Early July seems the best date to hold elections in time and minimize the risks, but I think both regions will add some clause in their decrees to cancel elections if something goes wrong. Vote by mail is a possibility, of course

I'm not following the management of the crisis in the different regions, except for the case of Ayuso in Madrid. I've ead that Ximo Puig is doing well in Valencia, but I don't know why tack50 thinks that Urkullu is underperforming in Basque Country. In any case, both regions are currently in Phase 1 of deescalation. Madrid, Metropolitan Barcelona and parts of Castilla y León remain in Phase 0


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Mike88 on May 19, 2020, 05:01:51 PM
Why did she said this?


Quote
Carmen Calvo's explanation about the expansion of the coronavirus: "New York, Madrid and Beijing are in a straight line, three of the big cities where there has been a problem with the devil"


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on May 19, 2020, 06:08:56 PM
Why did she said this?


Quote
Carmen Calvo's explanation about the expansion of the coronavirus: "New York, Madrid and Beijing are in a straight line, three of the big cities where there has been a problem with the devil"

I get from El Español that Carmen Calvo might be referring, with some inaccuracies, to a research pointing that some cities hardly beaten by coronavirus around the world have similitudes in humidity and temperature. Perhaps these factors might contribute to the coronavirus spread, but the research has not been revised. The cities mentioned in the research are Wuhan, NY, Tehran, Madrid and some others

Carnen Calvo also said that she supports aconstitutional reform to make the Senate more ''federal''

Apparently Pedro Sánchez will request another two-week extension for the state of alarm instead of a month, due to the Cs oppisition to the initial submission from the government


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Mike88 on May 19, 2020, 06:21:45 PM
I get from El Español that Carmen Calvo might be referring, with someinaccuracies, to some research pointing that some cities hardly beaten by coronavirus around the world have similitudes in humidity and temperature. Perhaps these factors might contribute to the coronavirus spread, but the research has not been revised. The cities mentioned in the research are Wuhan, NY, Tehran, Madrid and some others

Carnen Calvo also said that she supports aconstitutional reform to make the Senate ''federal''

Apparently Pedro Sánchez will request a two-week extension for the state of alarm instead of a month, due to the Cs oppisition to the initial submission.

Nonetheless it seems odd. I found this on social media with many comments mocking her. There has been some mocking of Spanish politicians on social media here in Portugal, even the media sometimes mentions it, not mock but a slight critic.

The extention of the state of alarm is just in some regions like Madrid and Catalonia, right? The rest of the country is already exiting the lockdown. That's the sense I have and I visit normally the El País and El Mundo websites.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on May 19, 2020, 06:38:14 PM
The State of Alarm is for all of Spain

Currently Madrid, Metropolitan Barcelona and much of Castilla-León are still in Phase 0 of deescalation, while the rest of the cpuntry moved to Phase 1. But all the country is under State of Alarm, which allows the government to limit mobility. In case the new extension is passed by the Congress, it will continue in force nationwide. The phases of,deescalation in the different territories are approved by the minister of Health, advised by an experts' committee that reviews the reports submitted by regional governments

Calvo has a tendency to say things in a strange way and I guess she's been mocked in Twitter, but that's only noise



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Skye on May 20, 2020, 05:00:48 AM
So... the CIS published its new poll:



I noticed El País's Kiko Llaneras is, again, criticizing the pollster (The thread's obvs in Spanish):



To sum up the tweets, he's roughly criticizing the way they are asking the questions, arguing they might be biased.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on May 20, 2020, 06:40:19 AM
The new extension of the state of alarm has been passed with the support of Cs and PNV, but the relationship between the government and ERC is strained. MP votes in favour given the situation, but warning the majority that voted the investiture is disbanding. Cs remarks that it's not a permanent ally of the government, while ERC complains that Sánchez is turning to the oranges and votes against the extension for the second time. Total opposition from PP and Vox with the usual rhetoric

Take the CIS estimation with tons of salt. I suspect that most polls will be ''performative'' from now on, so I'll put the whole polling industry in quarantine.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on May 23, 2020, 09:27:39 AM
A deal to repeal the Rajoy's labor reform was made with Bildu, in order to secure its abstention to pass the last extension of the state of alarm. While I'm personally in favour to repeal -totally or partially- that labour legislation, the deal was so awkwardly negotiated that has created a lot of confusion. A deal that irritates employers and unions equally, endangers social dialogue and weakens the coalition government is undoubtedly a huge political mistake. The negoiation with Bildu was conducted by Adfriana lastra (PSOE) and Pablo Echenique (Podemos), without the knowledge of most cabinet members including minister of Economy Nadia Calviño ( an independent technocrat who worked for the EU Commission) and Labour minister Yolanda Díaz (UP member linked to the CCOO union). Nadia Calviño voiced her opposition to the total repeal and has consolidated her position within the government, while Yolanda Díaz has been bypassed and weakened. The deal with its main rival in the basque Country has irritated the PNV as well, while the relationship with other allies like Compromís is strained. Cs has remained silent, but the government's blunder strengthen its position. A weker government is not good news for the country, considering the emergency situation and the destructiveness of PP and Vox.

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-05-21/confusion-reigns-over-government-deal-with-basque-nationalist-party-to-overturn-labor-reform.html

Quote
The approval of the fifth extension to the state of alarm by Spain’s Congress of Deputies yesterday ended with a political mess.

After the exceptional measures were approved by the lower house of parliament, news emerged of an agreement between the coalition government – led by the Socialist Party (PSOE) and junior partner Unidas Podemos – and the Basque nationalist group EH Bildu to repeal a 2012 labor reform. The pro-independence party, it emerged, had secured the deal with the government in exchange for abstaining at Wednesday’s key vote to push the end of the state of alarm to June 7.

The text of the agreement began with a commitment by the government to overturn the 2012 legislation, which was passed by the main opposition Popular Party (PP) while it was in power, and which, among other things, gave companies in Spain more flexibility to sack employees. The Wednesday agreement specified that the government should repeal the law before the end of the “extraordinary measures” that are in place to combat the coronavirus crisis – i.e. the state of alarm (...)

But given the controversy that the deal caused among the political opposition, hours later, at around midnight, the PSOE released an “explanatory note” in which it rectified what had been agreed in the first point of the deal. Instead of the complete repeal of the 2012 legislation, the PSOE and its junior partner agreed on a vague commitment to recover “the labor rights taken away by the 2012 labor reform.” The pledge is included in the governing pact reached by Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez and Unidas Podemos chief Pablo Iglesias in December, ahead of the creation of their coalition government.  

Madrid, Barcelona and the remaining parts of the country move to Phase 1 of deescalation, while half of Spain moves to Phase 2 next monday. Foreign tourist will be able to return in July (Spain is taking ore precautions than Italy)

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-05-23/spanish-pm-foreign-tourists-will-be-able-to-return-to-spain-from-july.html

Quote
Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez held a press conference on Saturday afternoon to discuss the latest measures being taken by his government during the ongoing coronavirus crisis, announcing, among other things, that the tourist sector should start to prepare for the upcoming summer season and that Spain’s top-flight La Liga soccer league would be restarting games at the beginning of next month.

“The hardest part is over,” the Socialist Party (PSOE) leader said about the Covid-19 epidemic, which has left more than 28,000 dead in Spain according to official figures. “We are seeing light at the end of the tunnel. Now the epicenter has moved to other parts of the planet, as is happening, for example, on the American continent. The response of the Spanish people has been formidable. Everyone has fulfilled their mission and they came together to deal with the epidemic (...)



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on May 27, 2020, 02:44:06 PM
Just another political storm, this time triggered by the decision of the Interior minister to dismiss a Civil Guard officer. I have to say that Grande Marlaska has every right to dismiss an officer he distrusts. Also, according to some media (El País or eldiario.es) the report on the March 8 marches is full of inaccuracies and half truths. Additionally this Pérez de los Cobos was one of the main culprits for the Spanish government's fiasco in Catalonia during the October 2017 mock referendum. Anyway the details concerning this new controversy are less relevant than the context. In a few words: the government is fragile and commits one mistake after the other, while the opposition is launching a fierce campaign of harassment and destabilization. Neither Spain is Venezuela nor the rightwing opposition represents a viable alternative for the country

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-05-27/civil-guard-dismissal-sparks-political-row-in-spain.html

Quote
he head of the Civil Guard command in Madrid, Colonel Diego Pérez de los Cobos, was sacked on Monday in a move that Interior Minister Fernando Grande-Marlaska described yesterday as part of “a reasonable, normal policy of building a new team.”

But the dismissal follows a report sent by the Civil Guard to a Madrid judge who is investigating alleged links between public events authorized by the government in early March and the spread of the coronavirus.

The Civil Guard’s second-in-command, Lieutenant General Laurentino Ceña, resigned shortly after learning of Pérez de los Cobos’ dismissal, and on Wednesday, a session inside Spanish Congress focused largely on the issue (...)  

Better news: Spain could get 140 billion from EU's recovery plan

https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2020-05-27/spain-could-get-140-billion-from-eus-covid-19-recovery-plan.html

Quote
Spain could be assigned €77 billion in grants and €63 billion in loans from a €750-billion Covid-19 recovery program that was announced by the European Commission on Wednesday.

EU sources said that Spain may be getting a total of €140 billion to help shore up its economy, which is expected to contract by anywhere between 9% and 13% as a result of the coronavirus lockdown, according to the latest estimates by the Bank of Spain.

This would make Spain the second top beneficiary of the financial assistance after Italy, EU sources told the EFE news agency.  

These things are the truly important, not the shameful debates in Congress between the Marchioness Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo and the Deputy PM Pablo Iglesias







Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on May 28, 2020, 04:31:25 PM
Basque Country poll: Gizaker/EiTB

EAJ-PNV 31 seats (41%)
EH Bildu 19 seats (23.4%)
PSE-EE / PSOE 12 seats (14.2%)
Elkarrekin Podemos 8 seats (11.4%)
PP+Cs 5 seats (7%)

Gains: PNV 3 seats (+3.6%), PSE-EE 3 seats (+2.8%), EH Bildu 1 seat (+2.3%)
Loses; PP+Cs 4 seats (-5.1%), Elkarrekin Podemos 3 seats (-3.5%)

https://www.eitb.eus/es/noticias/politica/detalle/7262013/eitb-focus-encuesta-intencion-voto-elecciones-vascas-12-julio-2020/

Galicia poll: NC Report / La Razón

PP 39/40 seats (46.2%)
PSOE 18/19 seats (22.8%)
BNG 11 seats (15.9%)
Galicia en Común 6 seats (7.6%)

Gains: BNG 5 seats (+7.6%), PSOE 4/5 seats (+4.9%)
Loses: GeC 8 seats (-11.5%), PP 1/2 seats (-1.4%)

 https://www.larazon.es/espana/20200525/7r3gazqa4fbj7omdkdi5icr65e.html

Both regional assemblies total 75 seats (majority: 38).

Vox would get 1.7% in Basque Country and 3.5% in Galiica. Cs would get 1.2% in Galicia

As for the rest of national parties, these results would be a great success for the PP moderate Núñez Feijoó in Galicia and a big failure for the Basque PP hardliner Carlos Iturgáiz (appointed by Pablo Casado in replacement of the dismissed regional leader Alfonso Alonso)

PSOE makes gains in both regions ar the expense of the UP allies

Nationalist advance in the Basque Country (PNV might be gaining some PP moderate voters, while EH Bildu might be gaining at Podemos expense) and BNG surge in Galicia at the expense of GeC (formerly En Marea)

Opinion polling for the next Spanish General Election

Average polling points to a increase around 3% for the PP (23.3% according to Key Data, which is a "poll of polls") and a slight decrease for PSOE (27.8%, Key Data), Vox (14.1%), UP (12.1%) and Cs (6.8%)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Spanish_general_election



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on May 29, 2020, 11:49:29 AM
The long awaited guaranteed minimum income scheme has been approved today

https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2020-05-29/spain-to-approve-guaranteed-minimum-income-scheme-for-vulnerable-families.html

Quote
he Spanish Cabinet approved on Friday a guaranteed minimum income scheme set to help 850,000 vulnerable families. It is not the first welfare program of its kind in Spain: there are already 17 different schemes in Spain run by each of the regional governments. But the distribution of this aid is very uneven and only reaches around 300,000 homes. The new scheme from the Social Security Ministry will nearly triple that figure. It will also be compatible with the regional aid, according to Social Security Ministry José Luis Escrivá.

Speaking at a press conference on Friday, Finance Minister María Jesús Montero called the guaranteed minimum income scheme “a giant step in the fight against inequality in our country.” The program aims to lift around 1.6 million people out of extreme poverty, a group that represents 12.4% of the population, compared with the EU average of 6.9%. And 26.1% of the population is at risk of poverty, meaning that they are living on less than 60% of the median income, or €8,871 a year.

“Today is a historic day for our democracy,” added Deputy Prime Minister Pablo Iglesias (...) 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Former President tack50 on May 29, 2020, 02:27:19 PM
Honestly I do not like that this stacks on top of the regional aid. I am in favour of this policy but it should replace the different regional minimum income schemes.

Tbh the lack of separation between regional powers and "federal" powers is one of my biggest complaints in terms of the current administrative structure of Spain but that is not getting solved any time soon


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on May 29, 2020, 04:34:40 PM
Honestly I do not like that this stacks on top of the regional aid. I am in favour of this policy but it should replace the different regional minimum income schemes.

Tbh the lack of separation between regional powers and "federal" powers is one of my biggest complaints in terms of the current administrative structure of Spain but that is not getting solved any time soon

I agree on the second part, but personally I do not mind the national scheme is complementing regional schemes (it's something like "co-governance"). As for the policy itself, it's necessary as long as our economies can't provide full employment (and it's going to be worse with the ongoing automation). I think it's a big hypocrisy to criticize subsidies without giving subsidized people opportunities to make a living. Poverty and social exclusion are too high in Spain for a developed country


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (State of Coronavirus Alarm declared)
Post by: Velasco on June 06, 2020, 01:03:33 AM
Pedro Sánchez secured the last state of alarm extension with 177 affirmative votes (including PNV and Cs) and 18 abstain (including ERC). While the pandemic is apparently under control and the country moves through the deescalation phases to the "new normality", there is a mountingpolitical tension with heavy attacks from PP and VOX. Regarding the controversy on the dismissal of the Guardia Civl top officer Pérez de los Cobos, the doltishness of a Director general gives ammunition to the right that demands the head of minister Grande Marlaska (writing in a document the reason to dismiss someone is not revealing the content of a report commissioned by the judge is blatantly stupid, even though there are good reasons to fire a man who is hostile to the government and is working to undermine it it from the inside).

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-06-03/after-bitter-debate-in-congress-spains-pm-secures-extension-to-state-of-alarm.html

Quote
  Spain’s Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez took advantage on Wednesday of a debate in the Congress of Deputies to call for support from other parties with the objective of “facilitating the transformation of the economy to another, more sustainable model,” in a bid to deal with the destruction caused by the coronavirus crisis.

The Socialist Party (PSOE) leader, who heads a coalition government with junior partner Unidas Podemos, was speaking in Spain’s lower house of parliament today at a vote to extend the state of alarm for a sixth and final time. The emergency powers have been in place since March 14, with the aim of halting the spread of the coronavirus. After an at times bitter debate, Sánchez won the vote to keep the state of alarm in place until June 21, with 177 votes in favor. The abstention of the Catalan Republican Left (ERC) and the support of the Basque Nationalist Party and Ciudadanos (Citizens) was key to the legislation passing.

Sánchez announced to lawmakers during the session that the Cabinet will next week approve a Royal Decree that will unite all of the measures and health regulations that will be in place as Spain exits the crisis, and that will be implemented jointly with the country’s regional governments until a vaccine against the Covid-19 disease is available.

As the coronavirus crisis has progressed, criticism of the government by the opposition at these debates – which have been held every two weeks during the state of alarm – has grown increasingly fierce.

Today Sánchez called on groups such as the conservative Popular Party (PP) and far-right Vox not to use the Spanish flag as a symbol against Spaniards. But his appeals did nothing to placate PP chief Pablo Casado, who once again delivered a relentless attack on the prime minister, citing all of the controversies and scandals that have affected the PSOE administration since Pedro Sánchez took power in 2018 thanks to a motion of no confidence he won against then-PP Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy. (...)

Some polls pointing there's a strong rejection to the climate of political tension. According to Metroscoia, VOX and PP are perceived as the parties that create more tension, followed by UP, PSOE and Cs. On the other hand, the conservative pollster Narciso Michavila (GAD3) warns that tension builders might have to pay a high electoral price. But Pablo Casado persists in the strategy disregarding these warnings and despite the displeasure of some people in his party like the Galicia premier Núñez Feijóo. Possibly the aim of the PP leader is to maintain tension and try to destabilize the government, with the focus on next autumn. Then Pedro Sánchez will have to face a critical moment, as he needs to negotiate a budget with the different parties and control possible pandemic outbreaks. I have read that maybe the goal of the PP's strategy is not to win an unlikely rightwing majority in Congress, but to replace the pSOE as the first party and lead a "concentration" government with the socialists in a subordinated position and the head of Sánchez severed. In any case, it's highly unlikely we go to general elections this year. 

Half of the country moving to phase 3 tomorrow

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-06-05/more-than-half-of-spain-moving-to-phase-3-of-coronavirus-deescalation-plan-on-monday.html

Quote
he Spanish Health Ministry announced on Friday that it had approved every region’s request to move to a new stage of the coronavirus deescalation plan. This means that more than half of the country will be in Phase 3 by Monday, June 8, while Madrid region and the city of Barcelona will be allowed to enter Phase 2.

“Fifty-two percent of the population will be in Phase 3,” said Health Minister Salvador Illa at a government press conference on Friday. “We are in the final stage, but we are still in the deescalation process,” he added.

The following areas will move to Phase 3: Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria, Basque Country, La Rioja, Navarre, Aragon, Extremadura, Andalusia, Murcia, the Balearic islands of Mallorca, Menorca and Ibiza, and the Canary islands of Tenerife, Gran Canaria, La Palma, Lanzarote and Fuerteventura.

The state of alarm will end in a couple of weeks and we'll have regional elections in Galicia and Basque Country on July 12 (if nothing untoward happens)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections:July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on June 22, 2020, 02:33:00 AM
Spain is no longer under the State of Alarm. The so-called 'new normality' began yesterday

https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2020-06-21/spains-new-normality-the-new-rules-region-by-region.html

Quote
Most of Spain left behind more than three months under a state of alarm on Sunday, entering the so-called “new normality,” in which social distancing of 1.5 meters is still required, and masks must be worn when that is not possible. Galicia was the first region to leave behind the government’s coronavirus deescalation phases, entering the new normality on Monday, while the Basque Country, Cantabria and Catalonia made the change on Friday.

Limits on capacity in commercial premises are now in place in nearly all regions, and this will remain the case until either an effective treatment or vaccine for the coronavirus is found. If there are major outbreaks in Spain, a state of alarm may well be introduced once more (...)

Sigma Dos poll for El Mundo

PSOE 28.7% (+0.7%)
PP 26% (+5.2%)
UP 12% (-0.8%)
VOX 11.7% (-3.4%)
Cs 8.3% (+1.5%)

PP leader Pablo Casado, Vox leader Santiago Abascal and Finance minister María Jesús Montero (PSOE) attended pre-campaign acts yesterday in Galicia. Premier Alberto Núñez Feijoó (PP) is strongly positioned, according to polls

Sondaxe poll for La Voz de Galicia

PP 46.7% (41 seats)
PSOE 21.3% (15 seats)
BNG 15.2% (12 seats)
GeC* 10.4% (7 seats)

*Galicia en Común: Podemos, IU, Anova, Mareas



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections:July 12, 2020)
Post by: Skye on June 22, 2020, 04:59:10 AM
If they PP loses the majority by, say, one seat, Feijoó is out right? No way they can reach a deal with the other parties I assume?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections:July 12, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on June 22, 2020, 05:13:33 AM
If they PP loses the majority by, say, one seat, Feijoó is out right? No way they can reach a deal with the other parties I assume?

Unless Vox or Cs somehow has said remaining seat (which is very unlikely) yeah, Feijoo is out. For him it is either 38 seats or bust.

In any other case, PSOE, BNG and UP will rule together.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on June 23, 2020, 01:37:54 AM
If they PP loses the majority by, say, one seat, Feijoó is out right? No way they can reach a deal with the other parties I assume?

Unless Vox or Cs somehow has said remaining seat (which is very unlikely) yeah, Feijoo is out. For him it is either 38 seats or bust.

In any other case, PSOE, BNG and UP will rule together.

Polls in Galicia show that regional PP collects nearly all the voters right of the centre, while the voters left of the centre are splitted in three viable parties. This factor gives a relative advantage to Feijóo under the D'Hondt system. Other factors working in his favour are the PP's grip on the region, a consolidated leadership, the low impact of the covid-19 in the region, the lack of sandals and controversies, the low appeal or name recognition of the opposition leaders, etcetera. The main threat to Feijóo is a big mobilization of the left, so it's not in his interest to exacerbate political tension and division. That's one of the main reasons why the Galician premier is not very happy with the aggressive tones of the national PP, even though polls suggest his position is fairly safe.  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on June 24, 2020, 10:52:51 AM
CIS pre-election survey

Apparently the controversial Félix Tezanos has adjusted the methodology to a more standard prediction. Despite most of the recent CIS surveys are "performative", Mr Tezanos tries to make good predictions in pre-election surveys and it's worth remembering the CIS was more spotted on than other pollsters in April 2019 (but not in the following elections)

Galicia

PP 46% (40-42 seats)
PSOE 19.5% (16-18 seats)
BNG 16.8% (12-14 seats)
GeC 7.2% (4-6 seats)

Prediction by province:

 -A Coruña: PP 47.3, PSOE 19.3, BNG 18.4, GeC 7.4, En Marea 2.1, Cs 1.9, Vox 0.7, Others 2.9
-Pontevedra: PP 43, PSOE 19.7, BNG 16.2, GeC 8.5, En Marea 4.1, Cs 2.3, Vox 1.7, Others 4.5
-Lugo: PP 48.1, PSOE 19.8, BNG 15.7, GeC 4.7, En Marea 2.8, Vox 2.0, Cs 1.4, Others 4.5
-Ourense: PP 48.1, PSOE 18.9, BNG 13.8, GeC 5.5, Cs 3-4, En Marea 2.6, Vox 2.6, Others 5.1

Vote transfers 2016-2020:

PP: PP 86, PSOE 1, BNG 1, Vox 2, Cs 1
En Marea: PP 1, PSOE 12, BNG 31, GeC 32, En Marea 9
PSOE: PP 10, PSOE 63, BNG 6, GeC 2, Cs 1, En Marea 1
BNG: PP 4, PSOE 6, BNG 72, GeC 3, En Marea 1
Didn't vote: PP 29, PSOE 8, BNG 10, GeC 4, Vox 2, En Marea 2

Average score (0-10 scale) and level of knowledge

Alberto Núñez Feijóo (PP) 5.9 100%
Gonzalo Caballero (PSOE) 4.9 84%
Ana Pontón (BNG) 5.1 75%
Antón Gómez-Reino (GeC) 3.9 51%
Beatriz Pinto (Cs) 3.2 30%
Pancho Casal (En Marea) 3.2 29%
Ricardo Moreno-Fajardo (Vox) 3.0 27%

Basque Country

EAJ-PNV  40.8% (31-34 seats)
EH Bildu 19% (16-18 seats)
PSE-EE 15.2% (11-13 seats)
Elkarrekin Podemos 14.9% (11-12 seats)
PP+Cs 5.9% (3-6 seats)

Results by province:

-Álava/Araba: EAJ-PNV 35.3, EH Bildu 18, PSE-EE 17.9, EP 14.7, PP+Cs 9
Guipúzcoa/Gipuzkoa: EAJ-PNV 41.8, EH Bildu 24.9, PSE-EE 13.7, EP 12,7, PP+Cs 3.7
Vizcaya/Bizkaia: EAJ-PNV 41.7, EH Bildu 15.7, PSE-EE 15.2, EP 16.3, PP+Cs 6.3

Vote transfers 2016-2020

EAJ-PNV: EAJ-PNV 78, EH Bildu 3, PSE-EE 3, EP 1, PP+Cs 1, Others 1
EH Bildu: EAJ-PNV 3, EH Bildu 84, PSE-EE 1, EP 3, Others 2
Elkarrekin Podemos: EAJ-PNV 7, EH Bildu 9, PSE-EE 3, EP 64, Others 5
PSOE: EAJ-PNV 7, EH Bildu 1, PSE-EE 75, EP 5, PP+Cs 1, Others 3
PP+Cs: EAJ-PNV 11, PSE-EE 7, PP+Cs 43, Others 8

Average score(0-10) and level of knowledge

Íñigo Urkullu 5.9 99%
Maddaln Iriarte (EH Bildu) 5.1 63%
Idoia Mendia (PSE-EE) 4.8 82%
Miren Gorrotxategi (EP) 4.7 57%
Carlos Iturgáiz (PP+Cs) 2.3 85%
Nicolás Gutiérrez (Vox) 2.6 35%

It's remarkable the low name recognition of Maddalen Iriarte, but keep in mind the actual EH Bildu leader is Arnaldo Otegi. Take for granted everybody in the Basque Country knows him. On the opposite side, the veteran Carlos Iturgáiz is well known and broadly disliked

Edit: I misnaned Mr Otegi before. It was the ghost of Xabier Arzalluz




Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on June 24, 2020, 12:48:55 PM
Well, looks like the 2 elections will be snoozefests unfortunately (there is a small chance of an upset in Galicia but not much)

Anyways, it is worth noting that Catalonia will probably have an election at some point this year so I will be looking forward to that one more than these 2


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: crals on June 24, 2020, 12:55:04 PM
Is there any major difference between BNG, GeC and En Marea?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on June 24, 2020, 02:16:46 PM
Is there any major difference between BNG, GeC and En Marea?

That's a good question, I think there are little differences between the three and they are mostly related to their degree of regionalism or Galician nationalism. The BNG is a leftwing nationalist organization that has shifted in recent years to more a more accentuated sovereigntism, in the line of EH Bildu in the Basque Country and ERC in Catalonia. En Marea (2016) and Galicia en Común (2020) are heterogeneous coalitions incorporating federalist or soft nationalist organizations like Podemos and IU (Esquerda Unida), alongside nationalist or sovereigntist elements like Anova (a BNG split) and the current En Marea group (a breakaway bound to fail that may hurt the chances of the viable parties in the left). Additionally Galicia en Común (and En Marea in 2016) incorporates some local parties also called Mareas ("Tides"), such as Marea Atlántica (led by former A Coruña mayor Xulio Ferreiro) or Compostela Oberta. There have been fruitless calls in previous months to unite all the forces to the left of the PSOE.

Well, looks like the 2 elections will be snoozefests unfortunately (there is a small chance of an upset in Galicia but not much)

Anyways, it is worth noting that Catalonia will probably have an election at some point this year so I will be looking forward to that one more than these 2

Maybe they don't look very exciting on paper, but they are actual elections and I wouldn't rule out some surprises in this strange world of today. Of course it's important to keep an eye in Catalonia. The coronavirus crisis gave Torra a respite, but the relationship between JxCAT and ERC is completely strained to the point their cabinet members are no longer a united government. The PP-Cs coalition government in Madrid is also splitted in two and premier Isabel Díaz Ayuso was considering to call elections. She was told not to move forward, in order to preserve the PP-Cs coalitions in Andalusia, Castilla y León and Murcia. Regarding to this, it's worth noting that the regions ruled by the PP (all in coalition with Cs usually propped up by Vox, except Galicia) represent more than a half of the Spain's population. This is the main base of power for a party that has performed very bad in recent times. All the PP premiers tend to be more moderate than Pablo Casado, with the notable exception of Ayuso in Madrid. Regarding the two upcoming elections, one of the main points of interest will be the predictably uneven PP performance...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on June 24, 2020, 08:02:46 PM
Sigma Dos poll for the región of Madrid

PP 43 seats (31.9%)
PSOE 40 seats (29.5%)
Cs 14 seats (10.8%)
Más Madrid 14 seats (10.3%)
Vox 11 seats (8 4%)
UP 10 seats (7.8%)

Gains (seats): PP 13, PSOE 3, UP 3
Loses (seats): Cs 12, MM 6, Vox 1

Cs would still hold the keys of the regional assembly


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on June 25, 2020, 01:44:36 PM
The last Gizaker poll for the EITB (Basque Country public broadcaster) predicts a slightly different result from the CIS. The main divergence is the Elkarrekin Podemos (EP) performance.

EAJ-PNV 32 seats (41.7%)
EH Bildu 19 (22.6%)
PSE-EE 11 (14.4%)
EP 8 (11.4%)
PP+Cs 5 (6.9%)
Vox 0 (2%)

Comfortable majority for the PNV-PSOE coalition. The PNV would get a result similar to that of Carlos Garaikoetxea in 1984, one seat below the best historical result (Juan José Ibarretxe in 2001, PNV-EA coalition). Certain corruption scandals in Alava involving PNV members and a recent landfill disaster haven't damaged the acting government. There is also a narrow leftwing majority with EH Bildu, PSOE and EP totalling 38 seats. The main advocate of this alternative is Podemos, but EH Bildu and PSOE reject it. Similarly the Podemos allies in Catalonia advocate a leftwing tripartite alliance, rejected by ERC and PSC. It's up to see if alliances could change in Catalonia, but it seems very unlikely a change in the Basque Country after this election


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on June 26, 2020, 04:25:28 PM
Ok so today there were incidents at a Vox rally in Sestao (Basque Country), which is basically a suburb of Bilbao located on the "márgen izquierda" (the most Spanish unionist area of Viscay and the Bilbao metropolitan area, although it is also very left wing)

The police had to intervene to stop protestors from causing violence and what not, with said protestors throwing food, eggs and even stones to the Vox people. Vox MP Rocío de Meer was injured.

Vox is blaming PNV for allowing the protest to take place and criticizing the police response for not ensuring their safety.

https://www.20minutos.es/noticia/4305916/0/cargas-policiales-antifascistas-boicotear-mitin-abascal-sestao/



In other news, the Spanish government is starting to prepare a "Telecommuting bill" as part of the response to the coronavirus, but also to generally improve telecommuting and put in placer a bill to regulate how it can be done. The bill has been criticized by Spanish Confederation of Business Organizations (CEOE), basically the main voice of business inn the country.

The main points of the bill seem to be:

> Telecommuting must be voluntary and not forced by the company.
> The company must pay for all the necessary equipment to telecommute, and the employee must not pay for any of the necessary things to be able to telecommute. This is the point where the Government and business organizations are clashing the most by far; and the most controversial point of the bill
> People telecommuting shall have the right to flexibility in their working hours
> While corporations can put in placer some controls, these controls must not be intrusive or dipsproportionate and attack the employee's right to intimacy. However the controls are put in place by the employer.
> The employee has a right to be completely disconnected outside their working hours and this right must be guaranteed by their employer

Telecommuting is intended to be voluntary, but prioritary for people with small children and victims of terrorism or gender violence

Tbh I hate telecommuting but a bill like this is a great idea and a bill I fully support.

https://www.20minutos.es/noticia/4305239/0/claves-ley-teletrabajo-prepara-gobierno-sanchez-podemos-trabajo/


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on June 26, 2020, 04:31:49 PM
Congress greenlighted the 'new normality' decree and this time the PP didn't vote with Vox and the separatists. New outbreaks raise concern and provoke a partial lockdown comeback in some parts of Aragon

https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2020-06-25/spain-approves-new-normality-rules-as-covid-19-cases-rise.html

Quote
The World Health Organization (WHO)‘s regional director for Europe, Hans Kluge, on Thursday praised Spain and several other countries for responding quickly to new coronavirus outbreaks, but warned that the continent is experiencing a resurgence in cases as restrictions are lifted.

Spain, which lifted its state of alarm on Sunday, yesterday reported the highest number of new daily infections in three weeks, and health experts are expressing concern about the public’s increasingly relaxed attitude towards prevention measures.

A Red Cross refugee center in Málaga has had an outbreak with 80 positive cases, including workers, volunteers and migrants living at the facility. In Navalmoral de la Mata (Cáceres), authorities have launched a search for an individual at the origin of an outbreak with 20 confirmed and 30 suspected cases who has gone missing. And in Andalusia, authorities are investigating two potential outbreaks in Granada and Huelva. Officials have reported five active clusters across the southern region.

The spike in infections comes as the lower house of parliament, the Congress of Deputies, on Thursday approved a government decree setting out the rules of Spain’s “new normality” following one of the world’s strictest lockdowns.

The decree was introduced by the coalition government of the Socialist Party (PSOE) and the leftist Unidas Podemos group, and backed by the main opposition Popular Party (PP), Ciudadanos (Citizens) and the Basque Nationalist Party (PNV) for a total of 265 votes in favor. The far-right Vox, the far-left Basque party EH Bildu, and the Catalan separatists of Together for Catalonia and Catalan Republican Left (ERC) voted against.  

The official electoral campaign began today at 00:00 CET in Galicia and the Basque Country. Pedro Sánchez will be tomorrow in Ourense (Galicia) and the following day in San Sebastián (Basque Country). Some socialist cabinet members will be involved in the campaign, including Health minister Salvador Illa. Pablo Iglesias will attend at least one campaign act in Galicia and labour minister Yolanda Díaz will also campaign for Galicia en Común in her home region. Pablo Casado was in Galicia the first day after the state of alarm and will come back this weekend, with a rally scheduled tomorrow in Pontevedra with Alberto Núlez Feijóo and Mariano Rajoy. The PP leader will move to Vitoria on Sunday to support Carlos Iturgaiz. Vox leader Santiago Abascal attended a pre-campaign at in Mos (Pontevedra, Galicia) and secretary general Javier Ortega Smith attended an a rally past Sunday in Gipuzkoa and was booed by radical Basque nationalists. The number of persons attending rallies is restricted in order to preserve safety distance.

Galicia and the Basque Country were the first regions moving from the state of alarm to the 'new normality, Galicia on June 15 and Basque Country on June 19 alongside Cantabria and Catalonia. Basque premier Iñigo Urkullu met Cantabria premier Miguel Ángel Revilla at the border of their regions and melted in a symbolic hug to celebrate the recovered interregional mobility. Despite the pandemic is apparently under control, there is concern in both regions due to recent outbreaks in the three Basque provinces (50 cases in Basauri, Biscay), Lugo and A Coruña.

In other news, tomorrow will start the inaugural convention of the newly formed Nationalist Party of Catalonia (Partit Nacionalista de Catalunya, PNC). The main promoter of this party is a think tank called "The Country of Tomorrow" (El País de Demà) launched in September w2019 with 200 attendants convened, elements of the civil society and members of organizations like Lliure, Lliga Democràtica (Barcelona councilor Eva Parera) and Units per Avançar (the heir of the extinct UDC led by Ramon Espadaler). The leader of the new party will be in all likelihood Marta Pascal, the former coordinator of the PDECat (successor of CDC) that was replaced by the exiled leader Puigemont due to her pragmatic stance. Pascal was a senator and played a key role in the motion of no confidence against Mariano Rajoy, supporting the bid of Pedro Sánchez against the wishes of Puigdemont. Additionally former deputies and CDC veterans Carles Campuzano and Jordi Xuclà have left the PDECat recently. The new party intends to be the Catalan version of the PNV, a "centrist liberal" force supporting a pragmatic sovereigntism and a legal path for an agreed referendum. The PNC wants to run in the next Catalan elections and could eventually ally with Units per Avançar, which ran in recent elections incorporated in the PSC lists. Barcelona security councilor Albert Battle (elected in the PSC list) is member of the last organization and could be one of the contenders to lead the moderate nationalist space. The chances of success for the PNC are very uncertain, but it's an interesting development in the polarized Catalan politics


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on June 26, 2020, 04:44:36 PM
Ok so today there were incidents at a Vox rally in Sestao (Basque Country), which is basically a suburb of Bilbao located on the "márgen izquierda" (the most Spanish unionist area of Viscay and the Bilbao metropolitan area, although it is also very left wing)

Sestao is possibly more left-wing than "unionist", even though the support for nationalist parties is lower than average due to the population with origins in other Spanish regions. The Left Side (Margen Izquierda) of the River Nervión is a traditional PSOE stronghold associated to the once thriving iron mining and steel industry. On the contrary, the Right Side (Margen Derecha) is more upper class and municipalities like Getxo had traditionally a strong PP vote. Aside from Getxo, the main PP strongholds are located in Álava and inner city districts like Abando in Bilbao.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on June 27, 2020, 05:19:45 AM
Ok so today there were incidents at a Vox rally in Sestao (Basque Country), which is basically a suburb of Bilbao located on the "márgen izquierda" (the most Spanish unionist area of Viscay and the Bilbao metropolitan area, although it is also very left wing)

Sestao is possibly more left-wing than "unionist", even though the support for nationalist parties is lower than average due to the population with origins in other Spanish regions. The Left Side (Margen Izquierda) of the River Nervión is a traditional PSOE stronghold associated to the once thriving iron mining and steel industry. On the contrary, the Right Side (Margen Derecha) is more upper class and municipalities like Getxo had traditionally a strong PP vote. Aside from Getxo, the main PP strongholds are located in Álava and inner city districts like Abando in Bilbao.

Yeah, the Abando neighbourhood might be arguably the most PP place in all of the Basque Country outside Álava. Iirc despite PP's bad result in 2016, they managed to get in 2nd there (a distant 2nd after PNV but still 2nd)



As for the PNC in Catalonia, they are going nowhere imo. If Unió in 2015 could not make it, in an era of Catalan politics that was less polarized than it is now, I doubt PNC makes it. I think they get like 1 or 1.5% of the vote.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on June 27, 2020, 10:51:42 AM
As for the PNC in Catalonia, they are going nowhere imo. If Unió in 2015 could not make it, in an era of Catalan politics that was less polarized than it is now, I doubt PNC makes it. I think they get like 1 or 1.5% of the vote.

The 2015 Catalán elections were hyper polarized, with a joint pro-independence list called Junts pel Si (CDC, ERC, independent associations) running and deemed a plebiscite by the supporters of Catalan independence. UDC managed to get. 2.5% of the vote (102k votes), which wasn't enough to win seats in the Parliament of Catalonia. Unió leader Josep Antoni Durán i Lleida ran unsuccessfully for Barcelona in the 2015 general elections and quitted politics thereafter.

Currently the Catalan nationalist and separatist forces are stronger than ever, but there is division within this camp. Polarization has diminished somewhat and there is certain fatigue after 10 or 12 years of procés. There is also an undetermined contingent of moderate nationalist voters that could embrace the proposals of the PNC. In order to have a chance of success, the new party coming from the moderate sector of the CDC must join forces with the heirs of Unió and other small groups emerged after the collapse of CiU. On the other hand, there is an ongoing process of reconfiguration within JxCAT. Tension between the PDECat (heir if CDC) and the Crida Nacional (group led by Jordi Sánchez, hardline separatist and more socially conservative) is increasing. The Crida and the independents close to Puigdemont demand that the PDECat dissolves into JxCAT, while there is division within the heirs of Convergencia. PDECat leadership refuses to dissapear, while the imprisoned Jordi Rull, Jordi Turull and Joaquim Forn allingn with Jordi Sánchez and the Crida. Currently the PDECat is openly pro-independence, but there are moderate and pragmatic elements coexisting with moreb hardline stances.

Who is who in the Catalan centre-right nationalism

https://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/politica/PDeCAT-Units-Lliga-Partit-Nacionalista_0_1042196280.html

Marta Pascal has been elected leader of the PNC. She calls to unite the different groups

https://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/politica/Marta-Pascal-Partit-Nacionalista-Catala_0_1042546030.html





Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on June 28, 2020, 06:19:46 AM
As I always try to do, here are the campaign posters and slogans from all main candidates. I don't know how widespread they are (because Coronavirus) but there are still certainly some out there. Though this time it was a lot harder for me to find them:

Using spoiler tags for the images for the first time ever as well, in order not to obstruct the page much (plus I think the PP one breaks the forum)

Galicia

PP: Galicia, Galicia, Galicia
Spoiler alert! Click Show to show the content.



PSOE: The time for a change / Make Galicia
Spoiler alert! Click Show to show the content.



BNG: A New Galicia
Spoiler alert! Click Show to show the content.



Galicia in Common (UP+allies): The time is now / Building the future
Spoiler alert! Click Show to show the content.



Vox: Galicia is Green
Spoiler alert! Click Show to show the content.



Cs: A lot to win
Spoiler alert! Click Show to show the content.



Analysing the posters here are some things:

> Feijoo, as is traditional for him, tries to hide the PP logo and make it as small as realistically possible. He already has done this in his previous elections
> PSOE meanwhile seems to be trying to nationalize the campaign, using marketing materials very similar to those used by Sánchez in 2019
>Vox's slogan is downright bizarre. It almost looks like they are an ecologist party :P
> Cs is even weirder. For a party that has a reputation for being pro-centralism and what not, it is very weird to see them use the Galician flag as a background, as well as to make their marketing materials in Galician and not Spanish (like Vox did). I suppose this ties nicely into their "turn to the centre" though


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on June 28, 2020, 06:34:55 AM
And here are the ones for the other election campaign:

Basque Country

PNV: Euskadi Stand Up / We will come out
Spoiler alert! Click Show to show the content.



Bildu: Ready to do
Spoiler alert! Click Show to show the content.



UP: We can govern
Spoiler alert! Click Show to show the content.



PSE-EE: Solucions
Spoiler alert! Click Show to show the content.




Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on June 28, 2020, 02:53:06 PM
Feijóo is clearly the best campaigner. He is going to win because he's Galicia. Vox is not Equo, but polls suggest it will perform nearly as bad as the true greens. Didn't you find a poster of Carlos Iturgaiz?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on June 28, 2020, 04:02:19 PM
Feijóo is clearly the best campaigner. He is going to win because he's Galicia. Vox is not Equo, but polls suggest it will perform nearly as bad as the true greens. Didn't you find a poster of Carlos Iturgaiz?

Oh yeah I did but I forgot to post it lol

Here it is

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbZBmRbXgAEFlV1?format=jpg&name=large

Slogan: A plan for the future

Here is also the Vox poster for the Basque Country

https://static3.diariovasco.com/www/multimedia/202006/19/media/cortadas/56186677--624x426.jpg

Slogan: Speak for yourself


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Skye on June 28, 2020, 05:32:53 PM
I'm still accustomed with campaigns where the candidate is the main selling point, so I don't find the Feijóo poster that weird.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on June 28, 2020, 07:31:33 PM
I'm still accustomed with campaigns where the candidate is the main selling point, so I don't find the Feijóo poster that weird.

Nobody said it's weird. Campaigns focused on the personality of the candidate are not uncommon in Spain. Manuel Fraga identified himself with Galicia before Feijóo and the slogan "Galicia, Galicia, Galicia" is not very different drom the Susana Díaz slogan in the 2018 campaign ("+Andalucía"). Anyway the size of the PP logo in the Feijóo poster is strikingly small.

I take advantage to post one of my favourite campaign slogans: "Zapatero Presidente". He promised "solutions now" 12 years before the PSE candidate Idoia Mendia

() (https://ibb.co/DYB8wgr)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: BigSerg on June 28, 2020, 08:12:03 PM
I really want Vox to be the key to government. Feijoo is an arrogant nationalist who needs humility.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Skye on June 29, 2020, 04:58:09 AM
I really want Vox to be the key to government. Feijoo is an arrogant nationalist who needs humility.

The VOX people are anything but humble lol.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: crals on June 29, 2020, 10:38:04 AM
I really want Vox to be the key to government. Feijoo is an arrogant nationalist who needs humility.

The VOX people are anything but humble lol.
And far more nationalistic than PP


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on June 29, 2020, 03:36:32 PM
I really want Vox to be the key to government. Feijoo is an arrogant nationalist who needs humility.

The VOX people are anything but humble lol.
And far more nationalistic than PP

Vox is indeed nationalistic, but Spanish rightwingers never call themselves "nationalists". Such people deem themselves "patriots" and leave the word "nationalist" to Catalans, Basques or Galicians (the "peripheral nationalisms")

There's a distinctive trait of the Galician PP, which has incorporated centre-right regionalist elements. The latter are mostly rural and Galician speaking (they were called boinas or "berets") opposed to urban and Castilian speaking elements (called birretes, which is a word for a square academic cap). The division between boinas and birretes was a characteristic of the Galician PP in past decades. Feijóo is a representative of the urban elites traditionally opposed to rural caciques like the Baltar brothers in Ourense province. Currently Feijoo has an absolute control of the Galician PP and those factions are integrated. Feijóo speaks in Galician and adopts a discourse that is partially regionalist, appealing to the rural and aged PP base. It's plausible that Feijóo can be seen as a Galician nationalist by a Vox supporter, but obviously he has little or nothing in common with the BNG


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on June 30, 2020, 12:45:00 AM
According to Sondaxe Feijóo is catching nearly all the voters right of the centre, while the BNG is coming increasingly closer to the PSOE (Click to enlarge. Source: Electograph)

() (https://ibb.co/7N8hZLN)





Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on June 30, 2020, 05:27:56 AM
Wow. While still rather unlikely, at this point it is not inconcievable that BNG actually beats PSOE for 2nd in Galicia. That would certainly be a huge upset and a big comeback for a party that many people considered dead back in 2016 (with almost all their voters moving to UP)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 03, 2020, 05:34:36 PM
It is rumoured that Carles Puigdemont and Quim Torra are considering to call snap elections in Catalonia (either September 27 or October 4)

Currently there is a conflict within JxCAT between Puigdemont loyalists and the current leadership of the PDeCAT (the heir of CDC), inscribed in a general reconfiguration of the Catalan centre-right nationalism. PDeCAT chairman David Bonvehí opposes to dissolve the party into JxCAT and is supported by a majority in the party's executive body and some important mayors. Puigdemont (a PDeCAT member himself) is backed by most cabinet members, deputies, mayors and other elected officials, as well by Torra and other independents, the imprisoned leaders and the Jordi Sánchez's Crida Nacional. According to recent news, Puigdemont is planning to create a new party bypassing the PDeCAT leadership. PDeCAT and Crida members would be invited to join the new Puigdemont artifact on an individual basis. The date for the inaugural convention is July 25, one day before a previously scheduled meeting of the PDeCAT's executive body. The main problem for Puigdemont is that the PDeCAT holds the rights of the JxCAT trademark, as well the public funds and the free advertising space in public broadcasters.

 The climate of political tension has cooled down in the last weeks, in coincidence with the summer season and the quiet Basque and Galician campaigns. Analysts say tension will increase again by autumn. It's worth noting there's something 'theatrical' and 'baroque' behind the harsh and disgusting rhetoric displayed in Congress ("constitutional dictatorship", "illegitimate government", etcetera)

Meanwhile government, unions and business leaders sign a deal to "reactivate Spain"

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-07-03/government-unions-and-business-leaders-sign-deal-to-reactivate-spanish-economy.html

Quote
The Spanish government, business leaders and unions met today in La Moncloa prime ministerial palace to sign a deal to reactivate the economy and create employment in the wake of the coronavirus crisis, which has left more than 28,000 official victims in Spain and has devastated the economy.

The signing ceremony, led by Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez, took place in the gardens of La Moncloa after an extraordinary Cabinet meeting, at which ministers approved a number of economic measures, including financing the digital transformation of firms and assistance for the country’s ailing tourism sector.

GESOP poll for El Periódico (General elections. Source: Electograph)

() (https://ibb.co/5hCW7Sd)

Invymark poll: PSOE 27.8%, PP 21%, Vox 14.1%, UP 12.8%, Cs 8.7%
DYM poll: PSOE 26%, PP 22.4%, Vox 15.1%, UP 11.3%, Cs 8.3%

Leaving aside the DYM poll (outlier or right-wing bias, imo), there is a divergence in the Cs estimation. There are no great differences between the left and the right (presumably MP adds between 1% and 2% ti the left block)




Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 04, 2020, 02:15:38 AM
The Postal Service admits 125,255 applications to vote by mail in the Basque Country elections, which represents 7% of the electoral roll and a 140% increase with regard previous elections. 98.5% of the applications were submitted at post offices and only 1.5% were submitted telematically (option available due to the Covid-19)

In Galiicia 76,907 applications have been admitted (67975 at post offices, 8932 telematically) , which is a historic high. The deadline for applications was July 2


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 05, 2020, 12:16:10 AM
Galicia: 40 dB poll for El País (click to eenlarge)

() (https://ibb.co/ZS56NhC)

Basque Country: GAD3 poll for ABC (click to enlarge)

() (https://ibb.co/2chqDTB)




Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 06, 2020, 12:46:14 AM
The rise of coronavirus cases has provoked the confinement of about 280k people this weekend. On Saturday, the Catalan government decreed lockdown in the region around the city of Lleida (Segrià comarca, a division roughly equivalent to a county in the US with 210k residents)

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-07-04/catalan-government-confines-residents-of-segria-in-lleida-due-to-rising-coronavirus-cases.html

Quote
The Catalan regional government on Saturday confined residents of the comarca of Segrià, in Lleida, given the rising number of coronavirus cases that have been detected there. The affected area is in the south of the province, on the border with neighboring Huesca and Zaragoza provinces, and contains 38 municipalities, including the city of Lleida.

The comarca – a traditional administrative division in parts of Spain – holds a population of slightly more than 200,000 inhabitants, and occupies 1,400 square (kilo)meters of land.

Catalan regional premier Quim Torra announced the measure at midday after a meeting with the Catalan Civil Protection Territorial Plan (Procicat), as well as deputy premier Pere Aragonès and other government ministers.

The confinement of Segrià began at 12pm on Saturday, and until 4pm any non-residents in the area were permitted to leave, while residents were allowed to enter. From that deadline onward, no one has been able to enter or leave, with the exception of those who need to for work. The restrictions also affect transport, trade and business activities (...)

On the following day, the Galician government decreed a lockdown in the coastal region of Lugo province (A Mariña comarca) that will last five days (until Friday, two days before regional elections) and affects 70k people. The lockdown raises concern on the voting conditions in that area (A Mariña has 56k enrolled voters, which is 20% of Lugo province) and its effect in the overall turnout. Polls have been suggesting that Feijóo will easily win over the demoralized opposition. The team of the Galician premier was expecting a slight turnout decrease (from 64% to 59%). However, in case turnout plummets across Galicia due to coronavirus panic, Feijóo's majority could be at stake. PP has a heavy reliance upon aged voters, the most vulnerable to the pandemic. The electoral consequences of a turnout below 50% could be rather unpredictable. A new suspension of the elections is out if question, unless there is a rise of coronavirus cases in the rest of Galicia. In case of aggravation, there is the possibility to postpone elections in A Mariña.





Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Skye on July 06, 2020, 04:52:36 AM
So I found the Community of Madrid has shapefiles for its region, so now that I barely know how to make maps using QGIS I decided to try my hand around other Madrid maps. This is the November 2019 General election in the Madrid Metropolitan Area. I'm using a key you should all be familiar with. Click on the spoiler to reveal the map:

Spoiler alert! Click Show to show the content.



Anyway, the working class red belt is on full display here, while the wealthier northwestern suburbs show just how much they are on board with the Right, considering all of them were over 60% and 70% pro-Right, while none of the red belt municipalities went above 60% for the Left.

Overall, 3 million votes were cast and these were the results:

PP: 25.3%
VOX: 17.3%
C's: 9.1%

Overall Right: 51.7%

PSOE: 27.3%
Unidas Podemos: 13.1%
Más País: 5.8%

Overall Left: 46.2%

All in all, the Metro area voted slightly a bit to the left of the overall Community of Madrid (52.3R-45.5L)

I wish I could have divided the Madrid municipality into districts to further show the vote disparity in the South, but I'm afraid I'm not that skilled yet.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 06, 2020, 06:34:11 AM
I have this old map of the 2003 Madrid regional elections (the infamous Tamayazo). The municipal districts are displayed within the Madrid mega municipality and the north-south divide can be seen easily. The municipality won by IU is Rivas-Vaciamadrid, the Gaul Village of the alternative left SE of the capital (it's different from nearby leftwing strongholds like Leganés or Getafe)

()

I have maps in my gallery of old Basque, Galician and other regional elections in my gallery, too


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Skye on July 06, 2020, 06:44:12 AM
I have this old map of the 2003 Madrid regional elections (the infamous Tamayazo). The municipal districts are displayed within the Madrid mega municipality and the north-south divide can be seen easily. The municipality won by IU is Rivas-Vaciamadrid, the Gaul Village of the alternative left SE of the capital (it's different from nearby leftwing strongholds like Leganés or Getafe)

()

I have maps in my gallery of old Basque, Galician and other regional elections in my gallery, too

This map is useful. Unfortunately, one shapefile I found also divided some of the surrounding municipalities into districts as well, and good luck mapping those.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Oryxslayer on July 06, 2020, 08:10:20 AM
Here, I'll help you display the Madrid Breakdown only, while leaving the municipal suburbs intact.

You should have both Layers loaded into QGIS: the one for municipalities and the one for districts. Municipalities is on top of districts.

For both of these go to Settings in the Layer Properties window. Go to Query Builder in the bottom right.

For the Municipal one you want to add: NOT "x" = 'y'

For the district one you want to add: "z" = 'a'

x and z are the field names which should be in the upper left box.

y and a are values in those fields that distinguish everything. Since shapefiles are constructed by govt  or watchdog officials, they often contain distinguishing variables to show where a polygon belongs in the official administration tiers. y in this scenario is going to Madrid, or something similar that uniquely identifies the Madrid city and only removes that from the view. The district wants 'a' to be an  identifier that all the madrid districts have but no others. Most likely this would just be a column that signifies which locality the districts are part of, and you just stick Madrid in for 'a.'

Now join or add the election data to the district shapefile.

If z and a do not exist, you create a new column to act as z and a. Highlight all the districts outside in Madrid using the Select features tool in the upper bar. Then go to the attribute table, and go to field calculator. Create a new field, and be sure to type something like 'Madrid' into the expression box before creating said field. Now repeat the above steps using this new column.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Skye on July 06, 2020, 09:27:24 AM
Here, I'll help you display the Madrid Breakdown only, while leaving the municipal suburbs intact.

You should have both Layers loaded into QGIS: the one for municipalities and the one for districts. Municipalities is on top of districts.

For both of these go to Settings in the Layer Properties window. Go to Query Builder in the bottom right.

For the Municipal one you want to add: NOT "x" = 'y'

For the district one you want to add: "z" = 'a'

x and z are the field names which should be in the upper left box.

y and a are values in those fields that distinguish everything. Since shapefiles are constructed by govt  or watchdog officials, they often contain distinguishing variables to show where a polygon belongs in the official administration tiers. y in this scenario is going to Madrid, or something similar that uniquely identifies the Madrid city and only removes that from the view. The district wants 'a' to be an  identifier that all the madrid districts have but no others. Most likely this would just be a column that signifies which locality the districts are part of, and you just stick Madrid in for 'a.'

Now join or add the election data to the district shapefile.

If z and a do not exist, you create a new column to act as z and a. Highlight all the districts outside in Madrid using the Select features tool in the upper bar. Then go to the attribute table, and go to field calculator. Create a new field, and be sure to type something like 'Madrid' into the expression box before creating said field. Now repeat the above steps using this new column.

()

Thank you very much Oryx. This map makes the disparity clearer.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Keep Calm and ... on July 12, 2020, 07:02:55 AM
Turnout at 12:00 CEST

Basque Country
2020: 14.1% (-1.3)
2016: 15.4%

Galicia
2020: 19.3% (+4.3)
2016: 15.0%



https://www.euskadielecciones.eus/participacion
https://resultados2020.xunta.gal/avances/0/galicia


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 12, 2020, 07:08:12 AM
Surprising to see turnout up in Galicia. I suppose we might be in for a surprise there.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 10:30:07 AM
Turnout at 5pm in Galicia is basically the same as in 2016:

2020 - 42.95% (+0.46)
2016 - 42.49%

Change by province:

A Coruña: +0.82%
Lugo: -0.93%
Ourense: -1.84%
Pontevedra: +1.30%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 11:10:54 AM
Turnout at 5pm in the Basque Country colapses compared with 2016:

2020 - 36.02% (-8.36)
2016 - 44.38%

Change by province:

Araba/Álava: -9.27%
Bizkaia: -8.46%
Gipuzkoa: -7.79%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 11:15:59 AM
Important note from the Basque country turnout reports:


Quote
Attention, in EUSK there has been a very high rate of mail voting, which will raise the participation rate at the end of the day.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 12, 2020, 12:13:27 PM
It' s a pity but turnout in Galicia may end being a bit lower than the preceding election. On paper this points to no change

Turnout reports from the Basque Country suggest me a good result for EH Bildu, but I'm just speculating.

The face mask campaign was extremely boring and unremarkable, except for the coronavirus outbreaks in A Mariña (Lugo province, Galicia) and Ordizia (Gipuzkoa, BC). Pablo Iglesias has been particularly erratic and out of focus, regarding a Twitter controversy sparked by Pablo Echenique (a deplorable politician, imo). It's a huge mistake attacking journalists instead of focusing on achievements like the vital minimum income or social dialogue developments  (Yolanda Díaz is an asset). I don't know if such things will affect the Galicia en Común and Elkarrekin Podemos results (polls weren't good anyway). The PSOE is risking to be humliated in Galicia, in case the BNG comes second surpassing the socialists. The PP results will be uneven and interesting to analyze in terms of internecine wars. Vox has a chance of winning a seat for Alava in the Basque Country with that low turnout. Anything but a PNV-PSE majority in the BC would be a failure,  but that looks as unlikely as Feijoo losing majority in Galicia


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 12:24:34 PM
It' s a pity but turnout in Galicia may end being a bit lower than the preceding election. On paper this points to no change

Turnout reports from the Basque Country suggest me a good result for EH Bildu, but I'm just speculating.

The face mask campaign was extremely boring and unremarkable, except for the coronavirus outbreaks in A Mariña (Lugo province, Galicia) and Ordizia (Gipuzkoa, BC). Pablo Iglesias has been particularly erratic and out of focus, regarding a Twitter controversy sparked by Pablo Echenique (a deplorable politician, imo). It's a huge mistake attacking journalists instead of focusing on achievements like the vital minimum income or social dialogue developments  (Yolanda Díaz is an asset). I don't know if such things will affect the Galicia en Común and Elkarrekin Podemos results (polls weren't good anyway). The PSOE is risking to be humliated in Galicia, in case the BNG comes second surpassing the socialists. The PP results will be uneven and interesting to analyze in terms of internecine wars. Vox has a chance to win a seat for Alava in the Basque Country with that low turnout. Anything but a PNV-PSE majority in the BC would be a failure,  but that looks as unlikely as Feijoo losing majority in Galicia

I wouldn't be surprised if BNG surpasses PSOE in Galicia. The turnout figures from their strongholds seem to be way up compared with the PSOE ones. I believe Podemos in Galicia will not have a good night. It seems their voters have gone to BNG.

About turnout in the Basque Country, like in the post above, mail voting seems to be quite high but I don't know if they will be counted tonight or in the next few days. That could change some seats, like for Vox.

In half a hour we will know.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: jaichind on July 12, 2020, 12:28:12 PM
When will polls close and any links to results ?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 12:30:11 PM
When will polls close and any links to results ?

Polls close in half a hour, at 8pm local time, 2pm in NY.

Results pages:

Basque Country:
https://www.euskadielecciones.eus/resultados

Galicia:
https://resultados2020.xunta.gal/resultados/0/galicia


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 01:01:56 PM
Galicia Exit Poll: (TV Galicia/GfK)

37-40 PP
19-22 BNG
12-14 PSOE
        2 GeC



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: jaichind on July 12, 2020, 01:02:42 PM
Galicia Exit Poll

37-40 PP
19-22 BNG
12-14 PSOE
        2 GeC



Looks like PP underperformed


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 01:04:06 PM
Galicia Exit Poll

37-40 PP
19-22 BNG
12-14 PSOE
        2 GeC



Looks like PP underperformed

And the PSOE crashed.

Also, another exit poll gives the PP a clear majority and BNG ahead of PSOE:

GAD3-ABC exit poll:

40-42 PP
16-18 BNG
     16 PSOE
       2 GeC


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 12, 2020, 01:07:37 PM
Vote by mail is counted on the very election night, alongside ordinary votes. Votes from abroad are counted days later, but usually they don't change anything


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 01:10:00 PM
Another exit poll for Galicia: (Sondaxe - La Voz)

42 PP
15 BNG
14 PSOE
  4 GeC

Exit poll for the Basque Country:

31 PNV
20 Bildu
11 PSOE
  7 Podemos
  5 PP+C's
  1 Vox


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 12, 2020, 01:11:41 PM
There is room for surprise in Galicia, according to that exit poll. Ana Ponton as premier would be a shock. BNG looks like the big winner, even if Feijoo holds


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 01:13:24 PM
There is room for surprise in Galicia, according to that exit poll. Ana Ponton as premier would be a shock. BNG looks like the big winner, even if Feijoo holds

Would the PSOE acept that?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 12, 2020, 01:14:50 PM
There is room for surprise in Galicia, according to that exit poll. Ana Ponton as premier would be a shock. BNG looks like the big winner, even if Feijoo holds

Would the PSOE acept that?

It would be suicidal for the PSOE in Galicia not accepting that


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 01:21:35 PM
There is room for surprise in Galicia, according to that exit poll. Ana Ponton as premier would be a shock. BNG looks like the big winner, even if Feijoo holds

Would the PSOE acept that?

It would be suicidal for the PSOE in Galicia not accepting that

Well, becoming a junior partner of BNG could also be suicidal for them, IMO. It seems a lose-lose situation for them. But we'll see. PP could lose its majority but I'm still saying they will hold on with their majority at maybe 39 seats.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 12, 2020, 01:28:12 PM
It seems Feijoo will probably (but not 100% sure) keep his majority.

The Basque Country went as expected really

The big surprise of tonight will be that BNG beats PSOE for 2nd.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Skye on July 12, 2020, 01:30:00 PM
First votes are coming in.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 12, 2020, 01:34:34 PM
I'd bet that Feijoo holds, but in case PP loses majority progressive Galicians would demand a leftwing coalition. The PSOE is already a junior partner in the Basque Country and Cantabria. Anyway, a BNG premier would be a shock. Let's wait


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 01:36:15 PM
The results page is quite lame. Insted of having, to compare to, the total final vote and share of 4 years ago, they could had the actual vote count of 4 years ago with the current precincts reporting.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 01:51:16 PM
Results from Galicia: 7.43% in

58.4% PP
19.2% BNG
16.7% PSOE
   2.0% GeC
   1.7% Vox
   0.4% C's

Nothing yet from the Basque Country.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 12, 2020, 01:58:55 PM
Results from Galicia: 7.43% in

58.4% PP
19.2% BNG
16.7% PSOE
   2.0% GeC
   1.7% Vox
   0.4% C's

Nothing yet from the Basque Country.

I guess that 7% sample are overwhelmingly rural precincts. Basques must be waiting to have a more advanced count. It will be quick anyway


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: jaichind on July 12, 2020, 02:00:04 PM
The results page is quite lame. Insted of having, to compare to, the total final vote and share of 4 years ago, they could had the actual vote count of 4 years ago with the current precincts reporting.

It also deceptively (no on purpose of course) list Podemos as a new party and does not show the sharp vote share drop from 2016


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Skye on July 12, 2020, 02:02:47 PM
The results page is quite lame. Insted of having, to compare to, the total final vote and share of 4 years ago, they could had the actual vote count of 4 years ago with the current precincts reporting.

It also deceptively (no on purpose of course) list Podemos as a new party and does not show the sharp vote share drop from 2016

Hardly deceptive. It's a different coalition, and usually, official sources will count them as new parties.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 02:08:48 PM
The results page is quite lame. Insted of having, to compare to, the total final vote and share of 4 years ago, they could had the actual vote count of 4 years ago with the current precincts reporting.

It also deceptively (no on purpose of course) list Podemos as a new party and does not show the sharp vote share drop from 2016

Hardly deceptive. It's a different coalition, and usually, official sources will count them as new parties.

Well, because Marea split they are presenting them differently. They could have put Marea compared with "EN MAREA-COMPROMISO POR GALICIA-PARTIDO GALEGUISTA-MAREA GALEGUISTA", but still.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: jaichind on July 12, 2020, 02:13:37 PM
So far the results looks pretty good for PP in Galicia.  I assume the count so far as a rural lean?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Skye on July 12, 2020, 02:16:28 PM
So far the results looks pretty good for PP in Galicia.  I assume the count so far as a rural lean?

Correct, I just checked and the cities are way behind in the count (except for Ourense). The PP has nowhere to go but down from here, since in Galicia the cities for the most part lean to the left.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 02:16:44 PM
So far the results looks pretty good for PP in Galicia.  I assume the count so far as a rural lean?

Yes, the vote so far is more rural, but some urban vote is already in, like from Vigo and A Coruña. In Vigo, the PSOE is in the lead, although with very few precincts reporting. However, the PSOE candidate uncle is the mayor, or rather, the king of Vigo. This may had an influence.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 12, 2020, 02:18:18 PM
With the count at 30%, the PP is still at 45 and GeC is at 0 eaten by the BNG. PP seats will drop, but Feijoo will hold in all likelihood. No room for surprise, sadly


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 02:24:21 PM
Results from the Basque Country: (51.1% counted)

40.1% PNV, 32 seats
27.6% Blidu, 22
13.5% PSOE, 9
  7.8% Podemos, 5
  6.8% PP+C's, 5
  1.9% Vox, 1


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: jaichind on July 12, 2020, 02:24:24 PM
With the count at 30%, the PP is still at 45 and GeC is at 0 eaten by the BNG. PP seats will drop, but Feijoo will hold in all likelihood. No room for surprise, sadly

Would there not be another seat drop for PP once Podemos gets above the threshold to get seats ?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: BigSerg on July 12, 2020, 02:26:09 PM
Results from the Basque Country: (51.1% counted)

40.1% PNV, 32 seats
27.6% Blidu, 22
13.5% PSOE, 9
  7.8% Podemos, 5
  6.8% PP+C's, 5
  1.9% Vox, 1

Vox!!!!!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 12, 2020, 02:27:47 PM
BNG and EH Bildu get great results. Podemos is the big loser


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: jaichind on July 12, 2020, 02:28:08 PM
Results from the Basque Country: (51.1% counted)

40.1% PNV, 32 seats
27.6% Blidu, 22
13.5% PSOE, 9
  7.8% Podemos, 5
  6.8% PP+C's, 5
  1.9% Vox, 1

Vox!!!!!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 02:28:38 PM
With the count at 30%, the PP is still at 45 and GeC is at 0 eaten by the BNG. PP seats will drop, but Feijoo will hold in all likelihood. No room for surprise, sadly

Would there not be another seat drop for PP once Podemos gets above the threshold to get seats ?

Yes, PP, in may view, will lose 3/4 seats, from their current 43 in the count, and CeG will gain 1/2 seats.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 12, 2020, 02:30:44 PM
The Vox results are ridiculous, even if it ends winning that cheap seat for Alava


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 02:31:00 PM
BNG and EH Bildu get great results. Podemos is the big loser

And PP+C's are also big losers, as Casado imposed his own candidate against the wishes of the regional PP.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: jaichind on July 12, 2020, 02:34:01 PM
The Vox results are ridiculous, even if it ends winning that cheap seat for Alava

Wait, how did VOX win a seat with 1.9% of the vote. What is the threshold to win seats in Basque Country ?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: BigSerg on July 12, 2020, 02:34:31 PM
The Vox results are ridiculous, even if it ends winning that cheap seat for Alava

Lol, do you really know about the political situation in Spain?

That result is pretty good and very, very symbolic.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Skye on July 12, 2020, 02:35:07 PM
Galicia, 60% in:

Feijóo: 49.7% - 42
BNG: 22.8% - 19
PSdeG: 19.3% - 14
GeC: 3.5% - 0
Vox: 2% - 0


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 02:37:32 PM
The Vox results are ridiculous, even if it ends winning that cheap seat for Alava

Wait, how did VOX win a seat with 1.9% of the vote. What is the threshold to win seats in Basque Country ?

They won a seat in Araba province where they are polling at 3.6%.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 12, 2020, 02:37:52 PM
The Vox results are ridiculous, even if it ends winning that cheap seat for Alava

Wait, how did VOX win a seat with 1.9% of the vote. What is the threshold to win seats in Basque Country ?

Legally the threshold is at 3% in any of the three provinces. Vox is above threshold in Alava, the less populated province. All provinces return 25 seats each regardless population


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: BigSerg on July 12, 2020, 02:38:55 PM
Galicia, 60% in:

Feijóo: 49.7% - 42
BNG: 22.8% - 19
PSdeG: 19.3% - 14
GeC: 3.5% - 0
Vox: 2% - 0


Hahahaha podemos out of Parliament!!!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Skye on July 12, 2020, 02:39:30 PM
The Vox results are ridiculous, even if it ends winning that cheap seat for Alava

Wait, how did VOX win a seat with 1.9% of the vote. What is the threshold to win seats in Basque Country ?

Legally the threshold is at 3% in any of the three provinces. Vox is above threshold in Alava, the less populated province. All provinces return 25 seats each regardless population

Really? The seats are not proportional to population? Huh. TIL.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: jaichind on July 12, 2020, 02:41:47 PM
The Vox results are ridiculous, even if it ends winning that cheap seat for Alava

Wait, how did VOX win a seat with 1.9% of the vote. What is the threshold to win seats in Basque Country ?

Legally the threshold is at 3% in any of the three provinces. Vox is above threshold in Alava, the less populated province. All provinces return 25 seats each regardless population

Thanks for explaining


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 02:44:33 PM
With 71% of the vote counted, it starts to become stronger the possibility that GeC will not win a single seat.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: BigSerg on July 12, 2020, 02:46:08 PM
With 71% of the vote counted, it starts to become stronger the possibility that GeC will not win a single seat.


Hahahaha ❤️❤️❤️❤️🥰🥰


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 12, 2020, 02:47:19 PM
The Vox results are ridiculous, even if it ends winning that cheap seat for Alava

Wait, how did VOX win a seat with 1.9% of the vote. What is the threshold to win seats in Basque Country ?

Legally the threshold is at 3% in any of the three provinces. Vox is above threshold in Alava, the less populated province. All provinces return 25 seats each regardless population

Really? The seats are not proportional to population? Huh. TIL.

Yes. It' s a peculiarity of the Basque Country that the three "historical territories" have equal representation. It was promoted by the PNV, despite the system does not benefit the jeltzales. The PNV is traditionally stronger in the most populated province, that is Biscay


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: jaichind on July 12, 2020, 02:48:02 PM
With 71% of the vote counted, it starts to become stronger the possibility that GeC will not win a single seat.

Same question.  What is the threshold for winning seats?   I think there are 4 provinces so I would think GeC would cross the threshold somewhere.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Skye on July 12, 2020, 02:49:14 PM
With 71% of the vote counted, it starts to become stronger the possibility that GeC will not win a single seat.

Same question.  What is the threshold for winning seats?   I think there are 4 provinces so I would think GeC would cross the threshold somewhere.

5%. Currently (77% in), they're at 4.2% in A Coruña, and 4.4% in Pontevedra.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: jaichind on July 12, 2020, 02:53:19 PM
BNG and EH Bildu get great results. Podemos is the big loser

And PP+C's are also big losers, as Casado imposed his own candidate against the wishes of the regional PP.

It seems the trend is the decline of national parties losing ground to regional parties.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Skye on July 12, 2020, 02:56:01 PM
82% in and the PSdeG is trailing the BNG by an astounding 4 point margin. Needless to say they probably won't overcome it.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 12, 2020, 03:07:35 PM
BNG and EH Bildu get great results. Podemos is the big loser

And PP+C's are also big losers, as Casado imposed his own candidate against the wishes of the regional PP.

It seems the trend is the decline of national parties losing ground to regional parties.

Yes this is correct. In the Basque Country the 2 nationalist parties have a 2/3 supermajority (not like it matters since the Basque regional statute can be reformed by a standard majority) and they are getting their best result ever

And of course, BNG is beating PSOE in Galicia


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Skye on July 12, 2020, 03:11:49 PM
Galicia, 90% in

Feijóo: 48.2% - 41
BNG: 23.7% - 19
PSdeG: 19.4% - 15 seats
GeC: 3.9% - 0 seats


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 12, 2020, 03:21:26 PM
With 71% of the vote counted, it starts to become stronger the possibility that GeC will not win a single seat.

Same question.  What is the threshold for winning seats?   I think there are 4 provinces so I would think GeC would cross the threshold somewhere.

5%. Currently (77% in), they're at 4.2% in A Coruña, and 4.4% in Pontevedra.

Yes, it's 5% in any of the provinces (not in the region as a whole)

BNG and EH Bildu get great results. Podemos is the big loser

And PP+C's are also big losers, as Casado imposed his own candidate against the wishes of the regional PP.

It seems the trend is the decline of national parties losing ground to regional parties.

Yes. The big winners are Feijóo (PP in Galicia ismore 'regionalist' than national PP), the PNV and Urkullu (the PNV is currently a 'technocratic' catch-all-party that attracts nationalist and non-nationalist voters) and of course the leftwing nationalist/searatist BNG and EH Bildu.

The big losers are Podemos (following the catastrophic regional elections in May 2019), PSOE (surpassed in Galicia  ad stagnant in BC), the Basque PP (Inés Arrimadas made a good deal, as Cs will get 2 of the 6 coalition seats), Vox (winning a seat in Álava has a symbolic importance,. though) and Cs (not their elections)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 12, 2020, 03:22:40 PM
With 71% of the vote counted, it starts to become stronger the possibility that GeC will not win a single seat.

Same question.  What is the threshold for winning seats?   I think there are 4 provinces so I would think GeC would cross the threshold somewhere.

5%. Currently (77% in), they're at 4.2% in A Coruña, and 4.4% in Pontevedra.

Yes, it's 5% in any of the provinces (not in the region as a whole)

BNG and EH Bildu get great results. Podemos is the big loser

And PP+C's are also big losers, as Casado imposed his own candidate against the wishes of the regional PP.

It seems the trend is the decline of national parties losing ground to regional parties.

Yes. The big winners are Feijóo (PP in Galicia ismore 'regionalist' than national PP), the PNV and Urkullu (the PNV is currently a 'technocratic' catch-all-party that attracts nationalist and non-nationalist voters) and of course the leftwing nationalists/searatists BNG and EH Bildu.

The big losers are Podemos (following the catastrophic regional elections in May 2019), PSOE (surpassed in Galicia  ad stagnant in BC), the Basque PP (Inés Arrimadas made a good deal, as Cs will get 2 of the 6 coalition seats), Vox (winning a seat in Álava has a symbolic importance,. though) and Cs (not their elections)

I would argue Vox is actually a winner tonight. Not a big one but they got the only prize they had a chance to get.

The big loser is Podemos of course.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 12, 2020, 03:26:31 PM

I would argue Vox is actually a winner tonight. Not a big one but they got the only prize they had a chance to get.

Cs won two seats in the Basque Parliament thanks to the joint venture with the PP. They are Pyrrhic victoriies, in any case


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Skye on July 12, 2020, 03:29:18 PM
Hold up. Over 96% in Galicia and the total vote count is 1.265 million compared to the 1.448 million of 2016. But turnout is up by 5 points since then. Velasco, are you sure the vote by mail is being counted at the moment?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 12, 2020, 03:34:14 PM
Hold up. Over 96% in Galicia and the total vote count is 1.265 million compared to the 1.448 million of 2016. But turnout is up by 5 points since then. Velasco, are you sure the vote by mail is being counted at the moment?

Yes, I'm pretty sure

https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20190428/461841350117/elecciones-generales-espana-2019-voto-por-correo-presenciales.html

Quote
El recuento de votos es el momento más esperado de cada jornada electoral. Se trata de un proceso que se realiza de manera manual mesa a mesa en cada colegio electoral del país. Debemos tener en cuenta que existen tres tipos de votos, los presenciales, los emitidos por correo desde España y los que llegan de fuera procedentes de los residentes en el extranjero.

Los dos primeros, se cuantifican de forma conjunta el mismo día de las elecciones, una vez concluye la jornada. Las oficinas de Correos entregan todos los votos emitidos a las 9 de la mañana, justo antes de abrir el colegio electoral y se guardan hasta que cierren, a las 20h. En ese momento, el presidente de la mesa introduce las papeletas del voto por correo en las urnas en las que se han depositado todos los votos presenciales a lo largo del día.  

I think the divergence in turnout figures is due to the sizeable migrant population, There are a lot of  gallegos abroad (particularly in Latin America) and turnout is abysmal due to the system of "requested vote" (voto rogado). Votes from abroad have not been counted tonight


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 12, 2020, 04:24:32 PM
For the record, I made three "predictions" that proved to be right

1) No change in Galicia: Feijoo wins
2) Good results for EH Bildu (historical high)
3) Vox wins a seat for Alava

It's not that I'm a genius, because they were very easy oredictions. I think Mike 88 predicted that the BNG would come second based on turnout reports

Sorry for the self-congratulations, but I'm a bit bored for the lack of emotions tonight ;)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Skye on July 12, 2020, 04:30:54 PM
Since the vote counting in Galicia is now progressing at a snail's pace, I mapped the election in the meantime.

First, with the parties that obtained seats:

()

Second, with broader ideological blocs including the parties that didn't get seats at all.

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 04:38:25 PM
Results by muncipality:

https://www.eldiario.es/galicia/mapa-resultados-12j-galicia-municipio_1_6098421.html

And the map:



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 12, 2020, 05:07:52 PM
In the last map Vigo is in colour red. I checked and the PSOE came close of winning, but it came second behind the PP. Vigo is the most populated town in Galicia and it has a popular socialist mayor that wins by landslide (the singular Abel Caballero). It's generically left-wing and En Marea came first in the 2015 general elections

Tonight results for Vigo

PP 32.6, PSOE 31 9, BNG 23 3, GeC 6.1, Vox 2 2, Cs 1 2


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 05:10:36 PM
In the last map Vigo is in colour red. I checked and the PSOE came close of winning, but it came second behind the PP. Vigo is the most populated town in Galicia and it has a popular sociakist mayor that wins by landslide (the singular Abel Caballero). It's generically left-wing and En Marea came first in the 2015 general elections

Tonight results for Vigo

PP 32.6, PSOE 31 9, BNG 23 3, GeC 6.1, Vox 2 2, Cs 1 2

Yeah, the map has that error. Weird. And the PSOE candidate for the Presidency of Galicia was his nephew.

And a seat is still in play in Pontevedra province. The PP currently leads the 11th seat by just 160 votes. The PP and PSOE are fighting for the seat


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 05:14:31 PM
The results in the Basque Country are also final:

39.1% PNV, 31 seats
27.8% Bildu, 22
13.6% PSOE, 10
  8.0% Podemos, 6
  6.7% PP+C's, 5
  2.0% Vox, 1

Map:


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 12, 2020, 05:20:22 PM
In the last map Vigo is in colour red. I checked and the PSOE came close of winning, but it came second behind the PP. Vigo is the most populated town in Galicia and it has a popular socialist mayor that wins by landslide (the singular Abel Caballero). It's generically left-wing and En Marea came first in the 2015 general elections

Tonight results for Vigo

PP 32.6, PSOE 31 9, BNG 23 3, GeC 6.1, Vox 2 2, Cs 1 2

Yeah, the map has that error. Weird. And the PSOE candidate for the Presidency of Galicia was his nephew.

Leading party maps of Galicia are overwhelmingly blue due to the PP hegemony and the division of the left

I checked Cangas too, a left-wing nationalist stronghold in Pontevedra province

.PP 34.2, BNG 34.1, PSOE 17.8, GeC 8.4, Vox 1 6, Cs 1

Pretty leftwing overall, but the PP beats the BNG by a hair  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 05:28:12 PM
In the last map Vigo is in colour red. I checked and the PSOE came close of winning, but it came second behind the PP. Vigo is the most populated town in Galicia and it has a popular socialist mayor that wins by landslide (the singular Abel Caballero). It's generically left-wing and En Marea came first in the 2015 general elections

Tonight results for Vigo

PP 32.6, PSOE 31 9, BNG 23 3, GeC 6.1, Vox 2 2, Cs 1 2

Yeah, the map has that error. Weird. And the PSOE candidate for the Presidency of Galicia was his nephew.

Leading party maps of Galicia are ocerwhelmingly blue due to the PP gegemony and the division of the left

I checked Cangas too, a left-wing nationalist stronghold in Pontevedra province

.PP 34.2, BNG 34.1, PSOE 17.8, GeC 8.4, Vox 1 6, Cs 1

Pretty leftwing overall, but the PP beats the BNG by a hair  

Also, in the Portuguese border, BNG polled above 30% between Tui and A Guarda. Also polled well in the border city of Verín.

The 11th PP in Pontevedra seat has gone back to PSOE. PSOE leads now by 121 votes. Let's see if it stands or will PP gain it back.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 05:32:43 PM
Down to 57 votes the lead by PSOE in that seat in Pontevedra with 99.16% of the votes counted


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 12, 2020, 05:35:03 PM
In the Basque Country map I see that the PSOE manages to win a single municipality. It's Ermua, a small town in Biscay close to the town of Eibar in Gipuzkoa. Ermua has a large amount of people with origins in other regions (Galicia, for instance). Miguel Angel Blanco, a PP councillor killed by ETA in 1997, was from Ermua

Tonight results in Ermua

PSE-EE 26 6, PNV 24.9, EH Bildu 21 2, EP 11 9, PP+Cs 10 1, Vox 1.9


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 05:40:25 PM
Down to 57 votes the lead by PSOE in that seat in Pontevedra with 99.16% of the votes counted

The PP takes again this seat, now with 110 votes ahead of PSOE. 0.52% of the vote still to be counted in Pontevedra.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 05:43:23 PM
In the Basque Country map I see that the PSOE manages to win a single municipality. It's Ermua, a small town in Biscay close to the town of Eibar in Gipuzkoa. Ermua has a large amount of people with origins in other regions (Galicia, for instance). Miguel Angel Blanco, a PP councillor killed by ETA in 1997, was from Ermua

Tonight results in Ermua

PSE-EE 26 6, PNV 24.9, EH Bildu 21 2, EP 11 9, PP+Cs 10 1, Vox 1.9

The PP was quite strong there in the past, polling at above 20%.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 12, 2020, 07:41:33 PM
Final results from Galicia. The PP failed to win the 42nd seat by 45 votes in Pontevedra.

48.0% PP, 41 seats
23.8% BNG, 19
19.4% PSOE, 15
   3.9% GeC, 0
   2.0% Vox, 0
   0.8% C's, 0
   0.5% PACMA, 0
   0.2% Mareas, 0
   0.5% Other parties, 0
  0.9% Blank ballots

58.9% Turnout


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 12, 2020, 08:43:16 PM
With all the close calls I think we will need to wait for the mailed votes from Spaniards permanently abroad (CERA vote) to get an idea of the final result for good


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: CumbrianLefty on July 13, 2020, 05:57:40 AM
Final results from Galicia. The PP failed to win the 42nd seat by 45 votes in Pontevedra.

48.0% PP, 41 seats
23.8% BNG, 19
19.4% PSOE, 15
   3.9% GeC, 0
   2.0% Vox, 0
   0.8% C's, 0
   0.5% PACMA, 0
   0.2% Mareas, 0
   0.5% Other parties, 0
  0.9% Blank ballots

58.9% Turnout

Only three parties winning seats much be pretty unusual in Spanish elections these days?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 13, 2020, 07:03:16 AM
UP collapse / rise of leftwing nationalists

Galicia: GeC + Marea Galeguista 4.15% (-14.92%) / BNG 23.8% (+15.44%)
Basque Country: EP + Equo 9.33% (-5.53%) / EH Bildu 27.84% (+6.58%)

PSOE + UP / Overall Left

Galicia: PSOE + GeC 23.31% (-13.64%) / Left (incl. BNG) 47.11% (+1.8%)
Basque Country: PSOE + EP 21.67% (-5.13%) / Left (incl. EH Bildu and Equo) 50.81% (+2.75%)

Feijóo Vs PP+Cs

Galicia: PP 47.98% (+0.45%)
Basque Country: PP+Cs 6.75% (-5.46%)

In the Basque Country map I see that the PSOE manages to win a single municipality. It's Ermua, a small town in Biscay close to the town of Eibar in Gipuzkoa. Ermua has a large amount of people with origins in other regions (Galicia, for instance). Miguel Angel Blanco, a PP councillor killed by ETA in 1997, was from Ermua

Tonight results in Ermua

PSE-EE 26 6, PNV 24.9, EH Bildu 21 2, EP 11 9, PP+Cs 10 1, Vox 1.9

The PP was quite strong there in the past, polling at above 20%.

 PP still got 13.55% in 2016 plus 2.75% for Cs in Ermua

In Getxo, an affluent municipality close to Bilbao (Margen Derecha), PP got 20.49% in 2016 (second behind the PNV) and Cs got 2.98%. PP+Cs still get 17.09% in 2020 (3rd behind PNV and EH Bildu), while Vox gets 3.19%
 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 13, 2020, 07:10:00 AM
Final results from Galicia. The PP failed to win the 42nd seat by 45 votes in Pontevedra.

48.0% PP, 41 seats
23.8% BNG, 19
19.4% PSOE, 15
   3.9% GeC, 0
   2.0% Vox, 0
   0.8% C's, 0
   0.5% PACMA, 0
   0.2% Mareas, 0
   0.5% Other parties, 0
  0.9% Blank ballots

58.9% Turnout

Only three parties winning seats much be pretty unusual in Spanish elections these days?

It can still happen but yeah it is the exception and not the norm at all.

In 2019 for example it only happened in Castille-La Mancha (which elected 19 PSOE, 14 PP and 2 Cs and nothing else), which simultaneously:

A) Is very unfriendly to the "new parties" and a stronghold of the old 2 party system
B) Has no notable regional parties
C) Has an extremely hostile electoral system towards third parties, with a de facto threshold of like 9% (PR by province, but no province elects more than 9 seats)

Really this was a big surprise and something that can't really happen outside Castille-La Mancha and maybe Extremadura (an even stronger stronghold of the old 2 party system, but with a much friendlier electoral system for third parties). Maybe in La Rioja as well.

In both cases it would depend on whether the UP collapse repeats itself in these regions without nationalist parties or not tbh. But they are not up until 2023 so the question is a bit irrelevant now I suppose


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Skye on July 13, 2020, 08:18:46 AM
I'm honestly shocked that Podemos was shut out of the Galician Parliament. It's as if half their voters fled straight to the BNG and pollsters didn't notice.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 13, 2020, 08:21:01 AM
I'm honestly shocked that Podemos was shut out of the Galician Parliament. It's as if half their voters fled straight to the BNG and pollsters didn't notice.

More like all their voters to be precise :P


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 13, 2020, 08:45:32 AM
With all the close calls I think we will need to wait for the mailed votes from Spaniards permanently abroad (CERA vote) to get an idea of the final result for good

Ah yes, forgot about that. Yes, that could change the seat. In 2008, in the general election, didn't PP lose a seat after the votes from abroad were counted? I recall something like that.

I'm honestly shocked that Podemos was shut out of the Galician Parliament. It's as if half their voters fled straight to the BNG and pollsters didn't notice.

More like all their voters to be precise :P

Yeah, it was quite a shock. I had a feeling that BNG would be ahead of PSOE, but the colapse of Podemos was a surprise. Even if you add the votes for the Mareas, they don't make it. Quite astonishing.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 13, 2020, 08:48:25 AM
With all the close calls I think we will need to wait for the mailed votes from Spaniards permanently abroad (CERA vote) to get an idea of the final result for good

Ah yes, forgot about that. Yes, that could change the seat. In 2008, in the general election, didn't PP lose a seat after the votes from abroad were counted? I recall something like that.

No idea about 2008, but in 2019 after the foreign votes were counted PP narrowly won 1 seat in the Basque Country from Bildu iirc. This meant that the Spanish right got at least 1 Basque MP even if very narrowly


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 17, 2020, 06:54:49 AM
Well, today was the day when the final foreign votes are tallied, as well as some recounts done just in case in the Basque Country and Galicia. There were several seats at play in both regions and one in Galicia, though in the end only one change has happened.

PP+Cs ended up winning one seat in the province of Biscay (Basque Country) from PNV. Final results are:

PNV: 31
Bildu: 21
PSE: 10
UP: 6
PPCs: 6
Vox: 1

This actually matters slightly more than you think, as a left wing coalition of Bildu+UP+PSOE is now short of a majority, with conservative parties (PNV+PPCs+Vox) having a majority now

Of course in practice, such a left wing coalition was never going to happen even if Podemos was pushing for it quite hard, PSOE had discarded it a long time ago and everyone expects that PNV and PSOE will choose to rule together again. Let alone the conservative coalition with PNV and Vox lmao. Though there are rumours that PSOE may choose to just give out external support to a minority PNV government instead of opting for a formal coalition this time.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 17, 2020, 07:30:49 AM
()

EDIT: changed boundary colours


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 17, 2020, 08:36:04 AM
Well, today was the day when the final foreign votes are tallied, as well as some recounts done just in case in the Basque Country and Galicia. There were several seats at play in both regions and one in Galicia, though in the end only one change has happened.

PP+Cs ended up winning one seat in the province of Biscay (Basque Country) from PNV. Final results are:

PNV: 31
Bildu: 21
PSE: 10
UP: 6
PPCs: 6
Vox: 1

This actually matters slightly more than you think, as a left wing coalition of Bildu+UP+PSOE is now short of a majority, with conservative parties (PNV+PPCs+Vox) having a majority now

Of course in practice, such a left wing coalition was never going to happen even if Podemos was pushing for it quite hard, PSOE had discarded it a long time ago and everyone expects that PNV and PSOE will choose to rule together again. Let alone the conservative coalition with PNV and Vox lmao. Though there are rumours that PSOE may choose to just give out external support to a minority PNV government instead of opting for a formal coalition this time.

Ir's interesting, indeed. Even though a coalition between EH Bildu and PSOE with Elkarrekin Podemos was not going to happen, the possibility of an alterbative and advance of the Basque nationalist left haven't go unnoticed for the PNV.

What happened with that seat in Pomtevedra disputed between PSOE and PP?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 17, 2020, 08:44:23 AM
Well, today was the day when the final foreign votes are tallied, as well as some recounts done just in case in the Basque Country and Galicia. There were several seats at play in both regions and one in Galicia, though in the end only one change has happened.

PP+Cs ended up winning one seat in the province of Biscay (Basque Country) from PNV. Final results are:

PNV: 31
Bildu: 21
PSE: 10
UP: 6
PPCs: 6
Vox: 1

This actually matters slightly more than you think, as a left wing coalition of Bildu+UP+PSOE is now short of a majority, with conservative parties (PNV+PPCs+Vox) having a majority now

Of course in practice, such a left wing coalition was never going to happen even if Podemos was pushing for it quite hard, PSOE had discarded it a long time ago and everyone expects that PNV and PSOE will choose to rule together again. Let alone the conservative coalition with PNV and Vox lmao. Though there are rumours that PSOE may choose to just give out external support to a minority PNV government instead of opting for a formal coalition this time.

Ir's interesting, indeed. Even though a coalition between EH Bildu and PSOE with Elkarrekin Podemos was not going to happen, the possibility of an alterbative and advance of the Basque nationalist left haven't go unnoticed for the PNV.

What happened with that seat in Pomtevedra disputed between PSOE and PP?

I think the Pontevedra seat ended up with no changes if I am not mistaken


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Mike88 on July 17, 2020, 09:14:12 AM
Well, today was the day when the final foreign votes are tallied, as well as some recounts done just in case in the Basque Country and Galicia. There were several seats at play in both regions and one in Galicia, though in the end only one change has happened.

PP+Cs ended up winning one seat in the province of Biscay (Basque Country) from PNV. Final results are:

PNV: 31
Bildu: 21
PSE: 10
UP: 6
PPCs: 6
Vox: 1

This actually matters slightly more than you think, as a left wing coalition of Bildu+UP+PSOE is now short of a majority, with conservative parties (PNV+PPCs+Vox) having a majority now

Of course in practice, such a left wing coalition was never going to happen even if Podemos was pushing for it quite hard, PSOE had discarded it a long time ago and everyone expects that PNV and PSOE will choose to rule together again. Let alone the conservative coalition with PNV and Vox lmao. Though there are rumours that PSOE may choose to just give out external support to a minority PNV government instead of opting for a formal coalition this time.

Ir's interesting, indeed. Even though a coalition between EH Bildu and PSOE with Elkarrekin Podemos was not going to happen, the possibility of an alterbative and advance of the Basque nationalist left haven't go unnoticed for the PNV.

What happened with that seat in Pomtevedra disputed between PSOE and PP?

I think the Pontevedra seat ended up with no changes if I am not mistaken

Electomania says that the Galicia CERA votes will only be counted next Monday.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 19, 2020, 04:40:20 AM
()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 19, 2020, 06:27:26 AM
The year is 2020 AD. The Basque Country is entirely occupied by the Nationalists and Socialists. Well, not entirely... One small village of indomitable PP supporters still holds out against the invaders. And life is not easy for the Spanish legionaries who garrison the fortified camps of Navaridas


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: CumbrianLefty on July 19, 2020, 07:41:19 AM
Just the one PSOE enclave as well I think?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 19, 2020, 08:17:48 AM
Just the one PSOE enclave as well I think?

Yes, the PSOE came first in Ermua (Bizkaia) getting 26.64% of the vote. The Basque socialists still get more than 20% in some places that used to be strongholds, like the municipalities of the Margen Izquierda next to Bilbao or some industrial towns near to San Sebastián (Donostia). I'll put some examples

Bizkaia: Barakaldo (22.45% , second), Portugalete (24.06%, second), Sestao (20.85%, second)

Gipuzkoa: Eibar (21.66%, third), Errenteria (20.09% , third), Irun (21.85%, second), Lasarte- Oria (25.7%, third)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 19, 2020, 12:41:56 PM
The year is 2020 AD. The Basque Country is entirely occupied by the Nationalists and Socialists. Well, not entirely... One small village of indomitable PP supporters still holds out against the invaders. And life is not easy for the Spanish legionaries who garrison the fortified camps of Navaridas

Navaridas is a rather tiny village (200 people), much smaller than the PSE enclave of Ermua (15080 people living in 6 square kilometers). The full results in Navaridas suggest there are enemies living among the legionaries: PP+Cs 32 votes, PNV 30 votes, EH Bildu 9 votes, Vox 5 votes, PSE-EE 4 votes, Elkarrekin Podemos 2 votes and Equo 2 votes. There are a lot of municipalities in the Basque Country with less than 1000 inhabitants and many of them are overwhelmingly nationalist, with PNV and Bildu getting 80% or 90% of the vote together. The municipality of Orexa in Gipuzkoa (121 people) is the main sanctuary of the abertzale left, with Bildu getting 70 votes (94.6%) and the PNV 4 votes (5.4%) with no ballots cast for other parties. Try to imagine you are the single PP or Vox voter in some small village of the Goierri county, besieged like the Last of the Philippines. By the way, the Vox leader Santiago Abascal was born in Bilbao, but his family is from Amurrio (Araba). Basque nationalist parties got more than 75% of the vote in Amurrio (10350 inhabitants) and the Vox result was poor (2.2%, below the province average)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Skye on July 20, 2020, 04:35:09 AM
So now the "voto CERA" has been counted in Galicia and indeed, the PP has managed to take a seat away from the PSdeG. New seat distribution:

PP 42
BNG 19
PSdeG 14

https://www.eldiario.es/galicia/politica/feijoo-mejor-resultado-escano-42-le-otorga-voto-exterior-pontevedra_1_6115019.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Logical on July 26, 2020, 04:17:33 PM
Is there a reason why late counted votes tend to lean right?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: BigSerg on July 28, 2020, 07:07:02 AM
Is there a reason why late counted votes tend to lean right?

ZAPATERO


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 28, 2020, 07:49:27 AM
Is there a reason why late counted votes tend to lean right?

ZAPATERO

Lol what?

Anyways there is no particular reason why the Spaniards abroad vote (which is what these late votes are really) tends to lean right to my knowledge.

Ironically common wisdom would expect it to actually lean left (young people leaving Spain and what not) but I suppose turnout among these kinds of people is abysmal.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 28, 2020, 10:18:41 AM
Podemos came first among Spaniards abroad (voto CERA) in the 2015 general elections and quite possibly UP did the same in 2016. Since then turnout has dropped to abysmal levels due to the "requested vote" system (voto rogado). However Galicia is different and the PP is traditionally hegemonic among the Galician communities abroad, particularly in Latin America (to a lesser extent, CC dominates the vote of the Canatians abroad in countries like Venezuela). The PP "stole" a seat to the BNG thanks after the CERA vote was counted in another election years ago, during the previous nationalist heyday under Xose Manuel Beiras. The current BNG leader Ana Ponton led her party to an extraordinary performance this year and believes she will be the next premier by 2024


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 28, 2020, 11:35:27 AM
Podemos came first among Spaniards abroad (voto CERA) in the 2015 general elections and quite possibly UP did the same in 2016. Since then turnout has dropped to abysmal levels due to the "requested vote" system (voto rogado). However Galicia is different and the PP is traditionally hegemonic among the Galician communities abroad, particularly in Latin America (to a lesser extent, CC dominates the vote of the Canatians abroad in countries like Venezuela). The PP "stole" a seat to the BNG thanks after the CERA vote was counted in another election years ago, during the previous nationalist heyday under Xose Manuel Beiras. The current BNG leader Ana Ponton led her party to an extraordinary performance this year and believes she will be the next premier by 2024


This is an incredibly great explanation. However it still does not explain PP gaining seats from Bildu in the Basque Country?

I am less confident on Ponton becoming premier in 2024 though. If the left wins she probably will indeed become premier (though 4 years is an incredibly long time; 4 years ago everyone thought PSOE would go the way of PASOK for instance :P ); but the thing is that I think Feijoo will just rule for a very, very long time. He seems to me like the kind of regional premier that just sticks on for incredibly long no matter what; much like Jordi Pujol or his PP predecessor Manuel Fraga (though Fraga was eventually defeated in 2005).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 28, 2020, 12:45:11 PM
This is an incredibly great explanation. However it still does not explain PP gaining seats from Bildu in the Basque Country?

I am less confident on Ponton becoming premier in 2024 though. If the left wins she probably will indeed become premier (though 4 years is an incredibly long time; 4 years ago everyone thought PSOE would go the way of PASOK for instance :P ); but the thing is that I think Feijoo will just rule for a very, very long time. He seems to me like the kind of regional premier that just sticks on for incredibly long no matter what; much like Jordi Pujol or his PP predecessor Manuel Fraga (though Fraga was eventually defeated in 2005).

I don't know if Basque expats are more right-leaning. In may case the roll of CERA voters is small in the Basque Country, while the roll in Galicia is so large that it turns down considerably the overall turnout percentage. I doubt the PP is remotely close to hegemony among the Basque expats, but it has apparently a higher share and that seat was won by a very narrow margin. I know there is an amount of people whom fled the Basque Country to other parts of Spain during the ETA years, but I know nothing about people abroad and ETA ceased to exist years ago. On the other hand, the Podemos success among young Spanish expats n 2015 is easily understandable: the appeal of the indignados movement to people leaving the country due to the lack of opportunities at home, in the midst of the economic crisis. In what regards the PP hegemony among the Galician expats, there have been always allegations on patronage networks.

Four years is a long time, yes. Feijoo could stay in Galicia for a long time or could try to jump into national politics. According to some rumours, Feijoo was prevented to contest the PP leadership because someone threatened to release a dossier against him featuring some photos with Feijoo in the yatch of a smuggler called Marcial Dorado in the 1990s that are "hard to explain". Just remember that former Madrid premier Cristina Cifuentes fell definitely from grace when someone decided to leak a video of her stealing beauty creams in a supermarket next to the regional assembly...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Astatine on July 28, 2020, 01:01:58 PM
Four years is a long time, yes. Feijoo could stay in Galicia for a long time or could try to jump into national politics. According to some rumours, Feijoo was prevented to contest the PP leadership because someone threatened to release a dossier against him featuring some photos with Feijoo in the yatch of a smuggler called Marcial Dorado in the 1990s that are "hard to explain". Just remember that former Madrid premier Cristina Cifuentes fell definitely from grace when someone decided to leak a video of her stealing beauty creams in a supermarket next to the regional assembly...
Wasn't this rather the tip of the iceberg of a whole scandal where she was caught having a fake University degree?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 28, 2020, 01:13:51 PM
Four years is a long time, yes. Feijoo could stay in Galicia for a long time or could try to jump into national politics. According to some rumours, Feijoo was prevented to contest the PP leadership because someone threatened to release a dossier against him featuring some photos with Feijoo in the yatch of a smuggler called Marcial Dorado in the 1990s that are "hard to explain". Just remember that former Madrid premier Cristina Cifuentes fell definitely from grace when someone decided to leak a video of her stealing beauty creams in a supermarket next to the regional assembly...
Wasn't this rather the tip of the iceberg of a whole scandal where she was caught having a fake University degree?

Yes, although the incident was unrelated to her fake master degree (people apparently forgot Pablo Casado has the same problem). Allegedly someone leaked the video because Cifuentes refused to resign and her stubborness was damaging the PP in Madrid. The video was released by the right-wing sensationalist OK Diario, if I remember well


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 28, 2020, 03:06:53 PM
Is there a reason why late counted votes tend to lean right?

ZAPATERO

Lol what?

Anyways there is no particular reason why the Spaniards abroad vote (which is what these late votes are really) tends to lean right to my knowledge.

Ironically common wisdom would expect it to actually lean left (young people leaving Spain and what not) but I suppose turnout among these kinds of people is abysmal.

ZAPATERO was literally the creator of the exodus of Spaniards, and his support for totalitarian regimes makes him toxic.

Thanks to ZAPATERO, Podemos won among Spaniards abroad in the 2015 and 2016 general elections

https://www.20minutos.es/noticia/2790713/0/elecciones-generales-2016-voto-cera-exterior/

and the party of Pedro Sánchez won the CERA vote in 2019

https://www.lainformacion.com/espana/se-confirma-maroto-se-queda-sin-escano-tras-el-recuento-de-votos-del-extranjero/6499009/

CERA voters in Galicia lean to the right, but not in Spain as a whole.






Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 29, 2020, 12:06:01 AM
BNG vote by municipality

() (https://ibb.co/3S7Xmh9)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 29, 2020, 06:24:55 AM
Vox has announced today that they will present a no confidence vote on the Sánchez government in September because reasons.

Needless to say, it will not go anywhere and tbh it further devalues the point of no confidence votes (which are supposed to be solemn occasions). Even PP has said they will not support it.

Sánchez may not have a majority, but his government is safe from a no confidence vote as such a vote requires the support from ERC, Bildu or CUP (and that assumes that Vox could somehow get the support of JxCat which is obviously not going to happen)

Anyways this is just a repeat of what we saw in 2017, but from the right this time. Back in 2017 UP presented a no confidence vote and it failed miserably (and even hurt the party's standing a bit)

Which in turn was a repeat of the 1987 no confidence vote from Hernández Mancha (who presented one against the González government, which had an overall majority at the time). And which again hurt AP quite a bit (Hernández Mancha in fact did not even make it to the 1989 election as leader and was replaced by Fraga briefly and later Aznar as party leader of the new unified PP)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 29, 2020, 07:06:58 AM

Anyways this is just a repeat of what we saw in 2017, but from the right this time. Back in 2017 UP presented a no confidence vote and it failed miserably (and even hurt the party's standing a bit)

Which in turn was a repeat of the 1987 no confidence vote from Hernández Mancha (who presented one against the González government, which had an overall majority at the time). And which again hurt AP quite a bit (Hernández Mancha in fact did not even make it to the 1989 election as leader and was replaced by Fraga briefly and later Aznar as party leader of the new unified PP)
.
Disagree. A motion of no confidence may not succeed, but that doesn't imply the motion fails miserably. Felipe Gonzalez presented a motion of no confidence in against Adolfo Suarez which was unsuccessful, but it served its purpose presenting Gonzakez as an alternative. Hernandez Mancha failed miserably in 1987 because he lacked the skills to confront Felipe Gonzalez in parliament. The 2017 motion was not that kind of failure and I remember well a devastating intervention by the UP spokeswoman Irene Montero on the PP corruption. The motion was unsuccessful because it lacked enough parliamentary support, but it was a draw in what regards the dialectical battle between Pablo Iglesias and Mariano Rajoy

(Emeritus king Juan Carlos might leave La Zarzuela)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: BigSerg on July 29, 2020, 07:26:22 AM

Anyways this is just a repeat of what we saw in 2017, but from the right this time. Back in 2017 UP presented a no confidence vote and it failed miserably (and even hurt the party's standing a bit)

Which in turn was a repeat of the 1987 no confidence vote from Hernández Mancha (who presented one against the González government, which had an overall majority at the time). And which again hurt AP quite a bit (Hernández Mancha in fact did not even make it to the 1989 election as leader and was replaced by Fraga briefly and later Aznar as party leader of the new unified PP)
.
Disagree. A motion of no confidence may not succeed, but that doesn't imply the motion fails miserably. Felipe Gonzalez presented a motion of no confidence in against Adolfo Suarez which was unsuccessful, but it served its purpose presenting Gonzakez as an alternative. Hernandez Mancha failed miserably in 1987 because he lacked the skills to confront Felipe Gonzalez in parliament. The 2017 motion was not that kind of failure and I remember well a devastating intervention by the UP spokeswoman Irene Montero on the PP corruption. The motion was unsuccessful because it lacked enough parliamentary support, but it was a draw in what regards the dialectical battle between Pablo Iglesias and Mariano Rajoy

(Emeritus king Juan Carlos might leave La Zarzuela)


At that moment Pablo iglesias made a fool of himself, lost support, and never got it back.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Former President tack50 on July 29, 2020, 07:33:21 AM

Anyways this is just a repeat of what we saw in 2017, but from the right this time. Back in 2017 UP presented a no confidence vote and it failed miserably (and even hurt the party's standing a bit)

Which in turn was a repeat of the 1987 no confidence vote from Hernández Mancha (who presented one against the González government, which had an overall majority at the time). And which again hurt AP quite a bit (Hernández Mancha in fact did not even make it to the 1989 election as leader and was replaced by Fraga briefly and later Aznar as party leader of the new unified PP)
.
Disagree. A motion of no confidence may not succeed, but that doesn't imply the motion fails miserably. Felipe Gonzalez presented a motion of no confidence in against Adolfo Suarez which was unsuccessful, but it served its purpose presenting Gonzakez as an alternative. Hernandez Mancha failed miserably in 1987 because he lacked the skills to confront Felipe Gonzalez in parliament. The 2017 motion was not that kind of failure and I remember well a devastating intervention by the UP spokeswoman Irene Montero on the PP corruption. The motion was unsuccessful because it lacked enough parliamentary support, but it was a draw in what regards the dialectical battle between Pablo Iglesias and Mariano Rajoy

(Emeritus king Juan Carlos might leave La Zarzuela)


At that moment Pablo iglesias made a fool of himself, lost support, and never got it back.

Yeah I agree with that. Not all the support Podemos lost comes from that, but it (alonside Sanchez winning the PSOE primaries) was "the beginning of the end" for UP, where it started the gradual decline it has been for a while now

What I remember most from the 2017 no confidence debate was the brutal intervention from Ana Oramas against Iglesias. I am not the biggest fan of CC (even if I've warmed up to them a bit now that they were finally ousted regionally), but that intervention was absolutely brutal




I remember a lot of people being surprised that a party with a whopping 1 MP and 0.3% of the vote had the best intervention lol

I will also note that the 1980 no confidence vote was done in much different circumstances. At the time there was already quite a bit of infighting in UCD and Suarez was becoming more and more "bunkerized" in a way. The closest comparison to 1980 would actually be the Sanchez one, if it had failed for some reason (let's say that, for example, the Catalan secessionists do not support it). The 2018 vote also showed a bunkerized Rajoy.

I certainly do not think Abascal (or even Casado) would be successful at replicating what González did in 1980. That came from extraordinary circumstances that are hard to replicate now.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: BigSerg on July 29, 2020, 07:40:17 AM

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 29, 2020, 07:47:23 AM

Anyways this is just a repeat of what we saw in 2017, but from the right this time. Back in 2017 UP presented a no confidence vote and it failed miserably (and even hurt the party's standing a bit)

Which in turn was a repeat of the 1987 no confidence vote from Hernández Mancha (who presented one against the González government, which had an overall majority at the time). And which again hurt AP quite a bit (Hernández Mancha in fact did not even make it to the 1989 election as leader and was replaced by Fraga briefly and later Aznar as party leader of the new unified PP)
.
Disagree. A motion of no confidence may not succeed, but that doesn't imply the motion fails miserably. Felipe Gonzalez presented a motion of no confidence in against Adolfo Suarez which was unsuccessful, but it served its purpose presenting Gonzakez as an alternative. Hernandez Mancha failed miserably in 1987 because he lacked the skills to confront Felipe Gonzalez in parliament. The 2017 motion was not that kind of failure and I remember well a devastating intervention by the UP spokeswoman Irene Montero on the PP corruption. The motion was unsuccessful because it lacked enough parliamentary support, but it was a draw in what regards the dialectical battle between Pablo Iglesias and Mariano Rajoy

(Emeritus king Juan Carlos might leave La Zarzuela)


At that moment Pablo iglesias made a fool of himself, lost support, and never got it back.

The motion of no confidence against Mariano Rajoy is not the reason why Pablo Iglesias lost support. On the contrary, I think Pablo Iglesias tried to compensate his errors between the December 2015 and June 2016 elections. Among other reasons, Iglesias lost ground because he disappointed his voters paving the way for the continuity of the corrupt PP in government after the electoral repetition of 2016. Simultaneously UP failed in surpassing the PSOE as the main party of the left. Since then, Pablo Iglesias worked hard to oust Rajoy from power and played a key role in the success of the motion presented by Pedro Sanchez. Later Sanchez made another error going to the electoral repetition of 2019, which proved to be a fiasco of unpredictable consequences


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: CumbrianLefty on July 29, 2020, 07:49:04 AM
Simultaneously UP failed in surpassing the PSOE as the main party of the left

Yes, its easy to forget now but there was a time when that seemed not just possible but even likely.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II (Basque Country and Galicia elections: July 12, 2020)
Post by: Velasco on July 29, 2020, 08:52:15 AM

Yeah I agree with that. Not all the support Podemos lost comes from that, but it (alonside Sanchez winning the PSOE primaries) was "the beginning of the end" for UP, where it started the gradual decline it has been for a while now

What I remember most from the 2017 no confidence debate was the brutal intervention from Ana Oramas against Iglesias. I am not the biggest fan of CC (even if I've warmed up to them a bit now that they were finally ousted regionally), but that intervention was absolutely brutal




I remember a lot of people being surprised that a party with a whopping 1 MP and 0.3% of the vote had the best intervention lol

I will also note that the 1980 no confidence vote was done in much different circumstances. At the time there was already quite a bit of infighting in UCD and Suarez was becoming more and more "bunkerized" in a way. The closest comparison to 1980 would actually be the Sanchez one, if it had failed for some reason (let's say that, for example, the Catalan secessionists do not support it). The 2018 vote also showed a bunkerized Rajoy.

I certainly do not think Abascal (or even Casado) would be successful at replicating what González did in 1980. That came from extraordinary circumstances that are hard to replicate now.

Ana Oramas is good on stage, but she's the last person who should criticize the waste of public money coming from a party with a good expertise in squandering. Her argument sounds demagogic to someone who is familiar to the CC style of government in the Canary Islands, but I concede it's effective for an audience unfamiliar to the CC regime and broadly hostile to Podemos. In what regards the argument of the lost opportunity for a "centre-left government", I'd only buy half of it because it's a half truth. I concur with people like Errejon that it would have been better to allow the investiture of Sanchez as a lesser evil, but that PSOE-Cs joint venture lacked a majority in Congress and did not represent the progressive majority of that time. Also, Sanchez had his hands tied by a party which wasn't controlled by him at that time. The 'barons' and Gonzalez told Sanchez that he could not make deals with the Catalan nationalists and banned implicitly deals with Podemos. Again, the decline of the Podemos fortunes came from the errors of that 2015-2016 interregnum (partly due to the arrogance of Iglesias, but the situation was very complex) and from the infighting ( Iglesias vs Errejon), not from that motion in 2017. And Irene Montero was excellent in her denunciation of corruption. Nobody compared the 2017 motion to the 1980 motion, but the comparison with 1987 seems totally inaccurate to me


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: motion of no confidence in Sept, catalan elections (?)
Post by: Skye on July 31, 2020, 06:10:29 AM
Why September? They're going to put on a show for months only for it to fail miserably. They're probably (obviously?) doing it to denounce Sánchez for a while, then accuse the PP of not being anti-Sánchez enough for not supporting the motion as a way to capitalize the right wing vote. I just don't think it's particularly clever.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: motion of no confidence in Sept, catalan elections (?)
Post by: Velasco on July 31, 2020, 07:30:23 AM
Today is the 125th anniversary of the PNV- For many people, the Basque Nationalist Party is the most efficient and successful among the political organizations operating in Spain (or the "Spanish State"). Basque premier Ïñigo Urkullu is finally attending a meeting in oerson (not videoconference) scheduled today at San Millán de la Cogolla (a monastery in La Rioja), with Pedro Sánchez and the regional premiers except Joaquim Torra. The Catalan premier refused the invitation in protest for the presence of king Felipe, while Urkullu accepted after the Spanish and Basque governments reached a last minute agreement to allow the diputaciones forales (provincial governments) get into debt.

Why September? They're going to put on a show for months only for it to fail miserably. They're probably (obviously?) doing it to denounce Sánchez for a while, then accuse the PP of not being anti-Sánchez enough for not supporting the motion as a way to capitalize the right wing vote. I just don't think it's particularly clever.


Pedro Sánchez looked happy when Santiago Abascal announced the motion in Congress, while Pablo Casado could hardly hide his displeasure behind the face mask. Sánchez said the motion is really against Casado, implying the motivation is to dispute the leadership of the anti-Sánchez feeling.
 
Personally I think the overacting and the politics of the spectacle prevent an effective opposition. The current outbreaks suggest the government is not managing well the deescalation (the responsibility was fully transferred to regional governments, possibly too fast). During the worst stages, PP and Vox have been devoted to hyperbole, harassment and destabilization. Now they are apparently too busy to see the actual errors of the government and propose credible alternatives


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: motion of no confidence in Sept, catalan elections (?)
Post by: Velasco on August 01, 2020, 03:23:55 AM
According to rumours, Catalan premier Quim Torra is considering to call elections next autumn. However, the pandemic makes said rumours uncertain: there will be elections only in case it's possible to hold them. Torra is a Puigdemont loyalist who ran as an independent in the JxCAT list. Currently JxCAT is involved in a process that will transform the coalition in a new party or political movement under the leadership of Carles Puigdemoont, without the parties that formed said coalition: PDeCAT and CDC. Puigdemont seeks breaking the links with the CiU legacy (tarnished by the corruption of the Pujol family), in order to launch big tent separatist movement free from partisan and ideological chains.  PDeCAT members are invited to join the new JxCAT on individual basis, in what the Catalan nationalist press calls a "hostile bid". Puigdemont is seeking to dispute the next Catalan elections to ERC and Oriol Junqueras. Despite ERC has been consistently leading the polls, the ousted premier has serious chances of success. The man who is living in Waterloo is undeniably the great illusionist of the present day Catalan politics.

The last CEO (aka "the Catalan CIS") poll shows that JxCAT is closing in

ERC 33-34 seats (22.1%)
JxCAT 32-33 (20.9%)
PSC 24 (17%)
Cs 19 (14.4%)
CatComu-Podem 9-10 (8.2%)
PP 5-7 (5.5%)
CUP 6-7 (4.9%)
VOX 3-4 (4%)

The poll projects resultts for the general elections in Catalonia (Congress of Deputies) that are similar in essence to theNovember 2019 results.

Despite the projected solid pro-independence majority in the Parliament of Catalonia, the poll says support for independence is not growing and the percentage of people answering "No" reaches historical levels in the CEO series: 42% Yes Vs 50.5% No


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: motion of no confidence in Sept, catalan elections (?)
Post by: crals on August 01, 2020, 08:07:03 AM
So there are still some people left who vote for nationalists but don't support independence? A relic of when CiU was merely a regionalist party I guess?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: motion of no confidence in Sept, catalan elections (?)
Post by: Velasco on August 01, 2020, 01:37:37 PM
So there are still some people left who vote for nationalists but don't support independence? A relic of when CiU was merely a regionalist party I guess?

There are supporters of independence that reject unilateralism and supporters of nationalist parties that could accept alternative solutions to independence. Possibly hardcore independence supporters amount 30% and the remaining percentage is nationalist or sovereigntist in varying degrees, but such feelings are not easy to measure


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 03, 2020, 03:55:55 PM
Embattled 'emeritus' king Juan Carlos to leave the country

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53642283

Quote
Juan Carlos, 82, made the announcement in a letter to his son, Felipe, to whom he handed power six years ago.

He said he would be available if prosecutors needed to interview him.

In June, Spain's Supreme Court opened an investigation into the alleged involvement of Juan Carlos in a high-speed rail contract in Saudi Arabia.

It was not immediately clear when the former monarch would leave Spain and where he would reside.

It is a humiliating exit for a king who had seemed set to go down in history as the leader who skilfully guided Spain from dictatorship to democracy after the death of General Franco in 1975, BBC Europe correspondent Nick Beake says.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Lumine on August 03, 2020, 04:13:56 PM
Quote
He said he would be available if prosecutors needed to interview him.



All jokes aside, quite a dramatic step. I'd call it regrettable, but in light of his multiple scandals and how his democratic credentials are overrated, I rather hope they eventually catch him.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Mike88 on August 03, 2020, 04:44:32 PM
Embattled 'emeritus' king Juan Carlos to leave the country

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53642283

Quote
Juan Carlos, 82, made the announcement in a letter to his son, Felipe, to whom he handed power six years ago.

He said he would be available if prosecutors needed to interview him.

In June, Spain's Supreme Court opened an investigation into the alleged involvement of Juan Carlos in a high-speed rail contract in Saudi Arabia.

It was not immediately clear when the former monarch would leave Spain and where he would reside.

It is a humiliating exit for a king who had seemed set to go down in history as the leader who skilfully guided Spain from dictatorship to democracy after the death of General Franco in 1975, BBC Europe correspondent Nick Beake says.

According to Portuguese media, he's going to exile in Cascais in the house the royal family owns there. Don't know if it is the same as his childhood one.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Former President tack50 on August 03, 2020, 08:25:33 PM
Quote
He said he would be available if prosecutors needed to interview him.



All jokes aside, quite a dramatic step. I'd call it regrettable, but in light of his multiple scandals and how his democratic credentials are overrated, I rather hope they eventually catch him.

For what is worth the Spanish constitution unfortunately grants him immunity from any crimes commited while he was the actual king

So Juan Carlos' chances of ending behind bars are close to 0


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 03, 2020, 09:34:33 PM
Embattled 'emeritus' king Juan Carlos to leave the country

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53642283

Quote
Juan Carlos, 82, made the announcement in a letter to his son, Felipe, to whom he handed power six years ago.

He said he would be available if prosecutors needed to interview him.

In June, Spain's Supreme Court opened an investigation into the alleged involvement of Juan Carlos in a high-speed rail contract in Saudi Arabia.

It was not immediately clear when the former monarch would leave Spain and where he would reside.

It is a humiliating exit for a king who had seemed set to go down in history as the leader who skilfully guided Spain from dictatorship to democracy after the death of General Franco in 1975, BBC Europe correspondent Nick Beake says.

According to Portuguese media, he's going to exile in Cascais in the house the royal family owns there. Don't know if it is the same as his childhood one.

Juan Carlos departed on Sunday, according to Spanish media, but his destination is unknown. His father Juan de Borbón was exiled in Portugal during the Franco regime. The exiled prince and the Caudillo arranged that Juan Carlos would get his education in Spain and the future king made his first visit to the country in 1948. Maybe he will return to Portugal, it'd be interesting...

I'd be happy if Juan Carlos pays taxes for the illegal money as a service to the country, but that is not going to happen. The chances that Juan Carlos ends his days behind the bars are virtually nonexistent. He has a legal shield and the judiciary in Spain is mostly monarchist and leans to the right.

At this point I'd say the PSOE support is key for the monarchy, as the institution could hardly resist if it's only backed by the rightwing parties. However, I suspect that PSOE voters are not very monarchist nowadays


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: PSOL on August 04, 2020, 12:46:21 AM
Y’all better wise up and embrace Republicanism. This is the perfect moment.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 04, 2020, 04:11:22 AM

I would gladly embrace republicanism, but I don't think this moment is so perfect. Right now Spain is embattled by multiple crises: health emergency, dire economic situation, deteriorated prestige of parties and institutions (once upon a time, the monarchy was the most valued), the Catalan mess... Like the journalist Enric Juliana says, the country stands up thanks to the unequivocal democratic will of a majority of the population (most of the people was born after Franco) and the European safety net (the EU's reconstruction deal is vital for Spain, literally). This context is not the best to shake up institutional stability, so I understand that the socialist part of the government is backing king Felipe right now. Also, constitutional reforms need a consensus that is impossible to reach in a context of political polarization (Spain's perennial problem). I'm far from being a monarchist and l think it's no longer possible refusing to discuss the matter, but I don't see Spain proclaiming the Third Republic tomorrow (maybe the following day)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Skye on August 04, 2020, 04:17:01 AM
I wonder if this is gasoline to the fire that is the Catalonia issue and its upcoming election.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: mgop on August 04, 2020, 05:29:55 AM
why is criminal allowed to leave? in western europe, in 21st century, there are still first class and second class citizens, sad.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 04, 2020, 05:50:01 AM
I wonder if this is gasoline to the fire that is the Catalonia issue and its upcoming election.

The monarchy was massively unpopular in Catalonia already, so who knows. The speech of King Felipe after the sham referendum in October 2017 didn't help. He spoke in defence of the State and the rule of the law, but many people inside and outside Catalonia think he wasn't empathetic with the victims of the police brutality (he didn't say a word about them). Felipe and his daughter speak Catalan, though.

I've just just read this article by Javier Pérez Royo stating the obvious: this is not a family affair. The Constitution says that the Crown belongs to the Nation , so the Congress must have a say as the representative of the popular sovereignty. It's time that the royals become fully transparent and accountable and the Congress should decide what to do with them in the present circumstances

https://www.eldiario.es/contracorriente/momento-cortes-generales_132_6145838.html



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 04, 2020, 06:38:08 AM
According to La Vanguardia, Juan Carlos is taking up temporary residence in the Dominican Republic. The 'emeritus' king left the royal residence of La Zarzuela on Sunday, then moved to Sanxenxo in Galicia and spent the night there. On the following day, he drove south and crossed the Portuguese border towards Porto. There he took a flight to the Caribbean country. Juan Carlos will be hosted by the rich Fanjul family (sugarcane growers) at Casa de Campo complex in La Romana


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Former President tack50 on August 04, 2020, 07:15:04 AM
Something to note about Juan Carlos I is that he was incredibly popular in the 80s, 90s and even the 00s. He was seen, alongside Prime Minister Adolfo Suárez as one of the 2 people that successfully transitioned Spain into a proper modern European democracy; as well as the person who saved the country from regressing back into a dictatorship in the dark day of the 23rd of February 1981.

All the corruption scandals have made the monarchy now divisive at best and unpopular at worst; in fact I am relatively sure that Spain is the only European country where the monarchy would lose a referendum (though it'd be close).

Though I will say that the entire Transition process is viewed a lot more critically by everyone now, especially by people in the left. Even Suarez has lost a lot of his appeal nowadays and is viewed more critically.

Still, Juan Carlos I could have gone into history as one of the best Kings in Spanish history, possibly even the best since Carlos III all the way back in the 1700s. Instead he will go down as a corrupt and shady king only marginally better than his predecessor Alfonso XIII


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: CumbrianLefty on August 04, 2020, 07:19:37 AM
why is criminal allowed to leave?

Well for one thing, however damning the evidence he hasn't actually been convicted of anything - or indeed yet charged? If that had happened, things would doubtless be different.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Former President tack50 on August 04, 2020, 07:26:54 AM
why is criminal allowed to leave?

Well for one thing, however damning the evidence he hasn't actually been convicted of anything - or indeed yet charged? If that had happened, things would doubtless be different.

Not sure if this applies to the British Queen, but it is worth noting that it is actually impossible to charge the king for any crime commited while he was the head of state. So any bribes he took up until 2014 are 100% legal and he cannot be prosecuted for it.

Juan Carlos I could have murdered somebody in broad daylight and he would not have spent a single day in prison.

The fact that the king cannot be judged or sentenced to anything is also recognized in the Spanish Constitution:

Quote from: Article 56.3
The person of the King is inviolable and shall not be held accountable.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: EastAnglianLefty on August 04, 2020, 08:18:18 AM
why is criminal allowed to leave?

Well for one thing, however damning the evidence he hasn't actually been convicted of anything - or indeed yet charged? If that had happened, things would doubtless be different.

Not sure if this applies to the British Queen, but it is worth noting that it is actually impossible to charge the king for any crime commited while he was the head of state. So any bribes he took up until 2014 are 100% legal and he cannot be prosecuted for it.

Juan Carlos I could have murdered somebody in broad daylight and he would not have spent a single day in prison.

The fact that the king cannot be judged or sentenced to anything is also recognized in the Spanish Constitution:

Quote from: Article 56.3
The person of the King is inviolable and shall not be held accountable.

As we don't have a written constitution, I don't think there's a clear answer to that. It probably depends upon whether you think the trial of Charles I was legally valid or not.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Skye on August 04, 2020, 08:41:25 AM
Juan Carlos I could have murdered somebody in broad daylight and he would not have spent a single day in prison.

Trump will be announcing his intention to run for King of Spain shortly after he loses the US election.

As we don't have a written constitution, I don't think there's a clear answer to that. It probably depends upon whether you think the trial of Charles I was legally valid or not.

I'm sure the King would have loved to hear it wasn't legally valid before he, you know, got his head chopped off.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: EastAnglianLefty on August 04, 2020, 08:43:48 AM
Oh, arguing that the court had no right to try him was Charles' entire defence. His problem was that the court very much did not agree with him.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: jeron on August 04, 2020, 11:07:07 AM
why is criminal allowed to leave?

Well for one thing, however damning the evidence he hasn't actually been convicted of anything - or indeed yet charged? If that had happened, things would doubtless be different.

Not sure if this applies to the British Queen, but it is worth noting that it is actually impossible to charge the king for any crime commited while he was the head of state. So any bribes he took up until 2014 are 100% legal and he cannot be prosecuted for it.

Juan Carlos I could have murdered somebody in broad daylight and he would not have spent a single day in prison.

The fact that the king cannot be judged or sentenced to anything is also recognized in the Spanish Constitution:

Quote from: Article 56.3
The person of the King is inviolable and shall not be held accountable.



I think this is the same in most monarchies. Common law has the same rule, although it is not written down


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: CumbrianLefty on August 04, 2020, 11:25:55 AM
A good argument against monarchy, if so.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 05, 2020, 07:09:24 AM

This context is not the best to shake up institutional stability, so I understand that the socialist part of the government is backing king Felipe right now.

In the light of recent news, I'd like to nuance a little:  

Despite I'm not monarchist and I'm not in love with the Bourbons, I can understand that Pedro Sánchez or the PSOE are backing king Felipe, for the sake of institutional stability, because the country is facing many problems. However, by no means I approve the secrecy and the opacity surrounding the exit of the allegedly corrupt 'emeritus king'. One of the main problems of the Spanish monarchy is the lack of transparency and accountability, as well the pact of silence that allowed Juan Carlos to develop his irregular activities with total impunity for many years, until the Botswana incident opened the Pandora's box. Sadly I'm getting the impression that the attitude of Sánchez towards the royal family is not very different from the attitude of the preceding PMs


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Former President tack50 on August 05, 2020, 07:23:22 AM
For the record, I will say that reforming the constitution to get rid of the monarchy is nearly impossible. Even if PP was to support it (lmao) and they agreed to overhaul the constitution for that, the process has some insane barriers. Basically the process is:

1) Get a 2/3 majority in both the Congress of Deputies and the Senate. This means, at the absolute minimum, PSOE+PP+UP need to support it.

2) After the reform gets passed with the 2/3 supermajority; a snap election gets immediately called.

3) After the snap election, you need again a 2/3 supermajority in both the Congress and the Senate to finally pass the reform and put it up to a referendum

4) Once the 2/3 supermajority is achieved twice; a referendum needs to be called. If the referendum is successful, the reform is finally approved

This is because the monarchy is part of the "entrenched" clauses of the constitution, for some bizarre reason.



There is an alternative option that goes against the spirit of the constitution but that would be technically legal, since the entrenching clause (article 168.1) is technically not entrenched itself.

Basically it would involve first removing the monarchy from the list of entrenched clauses, then reforming the constitution again to remove the monarchy. The process would be:

1) Get either a 3/5 majority in both houses of the Cortes Generales; or a 2/3 majority in the Congress of Deputies and 50%+1 in the Senate. This is the standard reform procedure, which has already been performed twice (1992 and 2011). Use this to remove the entrenchment clause from the constitution

2) If at least 35 MPs or 27 Senators request it (1/10 of either chamber), there will be a referendum. While this did not happen in 1992 or 2011 as the reforms passed with over 90% support in both chambers, it is almost certain to happen this time. So the referendum would need to happen

3) After the referendum, reform the constitution again to get rid of the monarchy. Same procedure as in point 1 (unless that got changed)

4) Again if 1/10 of either chamber asks for it, a referendum happens

Worth noting you still need PP support for this, so it is not going to happen, especially not in this way.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: CumbrianLefty on August 05, 2020, 07:39:38 AM
I suppose the monarchy is partly "entrenched" in that way for historical reasons.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on August 05, 2020, 07:53:41 AM
For the record, I will say that reforming the constitution to get rid of the monarchy is nearly impossible. Even if PP was to support it (lmao) and they agreed to overhaul the constitution for that, the process has some insane barriers. Basically the process is:

1) Get a 2/3 majority in both the Congress of Deputies and the Senate. This means, at the absolute minimum, PSOE+PP+UP need to support it.

2) After the reform gets passed with the 2/3 supermajority; a snap election gets immediately called.

3) After the snap election, you need again a 2/3 supermajority in both the Congress and the Senate to finally pass the reform and put it up to a referendum

4) Once the 2/3 supermajority is achieved twice; a referendum needs to be called. If the referendum is successful, the reform is finally approved

This is because the monarchy is part of the "entrenched" clauses of the constitution, for some bizarre reason.



There is an alternative option that goes against the spirit of the constitution but that would be technically legal, since the entrenching clause (article 168.1) is technically not entrenched itself.

Basically it would involve first removing the monarchy from the list of entrenched clauses, then reforming the constitution again to remove the monarchy. The process would be:

1) Get either a 3/5 majority in both houses of the Cortes Generales; or a 2/3 majority in the Congress of Deputies and 50%+1 in the Senate. This is the standard reform procedure, which has already been performed twice (1992 and 2011). Use this to remove the entrenchment clause from the constitution

2) If at least 35 MPs or 27 Senators request it (1/10 of either chamber), there will be a referendum. While this did not happen in 1992 or 2011 as the reforms passed with over 90% support in both chambers, it is almost certain to happen this time. So the referendum would need to happen

3) After the referendum, reform the constitution again to get rid of the monarchy. Same procedure as in point 1 (unless that got changed)

4) Again if 1/10 of either chamber asks for it, a referendum happens

Worth noting you still need PP support for this, so it is not going to happen, especially not in this way.



Well it could be more difficult than this.

Italy has an entrenching clause about the form of government too (Article 139) except that instead of rendering the process more difficult and complicated, it directly says that it cannot be changed in any way.

And trying to remove the entrenching clause would be more difficult, because constitutional reform in general in Italy is more difficult.
(not to mention that the Constitutional Court would likely immediately block whatever attempt to remove/change Article 139)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Mike88 on August 05, 2020, 09:44:53 AM
Well it could be more difficult than this.

Italy has an entrenching clause about the form of government too (Article 139) except that instead of rendering the process more difficult and complicated, it directly says that it cannot be changed in any way.

And trying to remove the entrenching clause would be more difficult, because constitutional reform in general in Italy is more difficult.
(not to mention that the Constitutional Court would likely immediately block whatever attempt to remove/change Article 139)

In Portugal the Constitution doesn't allow any change of the political system, according to article 288:

Quote
Article 288 - (Material limits of revision)

Constitutional review laws will have to respect:

(...)
b)  The republican form of government;
(...)

I believe this kind of Constitutional rules, forbidding or making almost impossible to change the political system, are quite common in every country.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on August 05, 2020, 09:48:29 AM
Well it could be more difficult than this.

Italy has an entrenching clause about the form of government too (Article 139) except that instead of rendering the process more difficult and complicated, it directly says that it cannot be changed in any way.

And trying to remove the entrenching clause would be more difficult, because constitutional reform in general in Italy is more difficult.
(not to mention that the Constitutional Court would likely immediately block whatever attempt to remove/change Article 139)

In Portugal the Constitution doesn't allow any change of the political system, according to article 288:

Quote
Article 288 - (Material limits of revision)

Constitutional review laws will have to respect:

(...)
b)  The republican form of government;
(...)

Yes in Italy it is the same.
Article 139 is very short, it just states:
"The republican form of government cannot be subject to constitutional review"


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 05, 2020, 10:57:05 AM
Blocked all the legal paths, apparently the only effective ways to change a political systen are: war, revolution, or a dictator dying in his bed (Franco did not die peacefully, because the 'Official Medical Team' opted for therapeutic obstinacy)   Interesting


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Mike88 on August 05, 2020, 05:11:54 PM
According to La Vanguardia, Juan Carlos is taking up temporary residence in the Dominican Republic. The 'emeritus' king left the royal residence of La Zarzuela on Sunday, then moved to Sanxenxo in Galicia and spent the night there. On the following day, he drove south and crossed the Portuguese border towards Porto. There he took a flight to the Caribbean country. Juan Carlos will be hosted by the rich Fanjul family (sugarcane growers) at Casa de Campo complex in La Romana

The new theory is that he's in Quinta do Perú, a luxurious golf club/neighborhood in the Peninsula of Setúbal, in a house owned by the Espírito Santo family.

That... doesn't look good., but it seems it's a house from a branch of the Espirito Santo family that is in a legal battle with the former chairman of the extinct Espírito Santo Bank, Ricardo Salgado.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 05, 2020, 05:17:09 PM
According to La Vanguardia, Juan Carlos is taking up temporary residence in the Dominican Republic. The 'emeritus' king left the royal residence of La Zarzuela on Sunday, then moved to Sanxenxo in Galicia and spent the night there. On the following day, he drove south and crossed the Portuguese border towards Porto. There he took a flight to the Caribbean country. Juan Carlos will be hosted by the rich Fanjul family (sugarcane growers) at Casa de Campo complex in La Romana

The new theory is that he's in Quinta do Perú, a luxurious golf club/neighborhood in the Peninsula of Setúbal, in a house owned by the Espírito Santo family.

That... doesn't look good.


Can you tell us something about the Espirito Santo family?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Mike88 on August 05, 2020, 05:30:09 PM
According to La Vanguardia, Juan Carlos is taking up temporary residence in the Dominican Republic. The 'emeritus' king left the royal residence of La Zarzuela on Sunday, then moved to Sanxenxo in Galicia and spent the night there. On the following day, he drove south and crossed the Portuguese border towards Porto. There he took a flight to the Caribbean country. Juan Carlos will be hosted by the rich Fanjul family (sugarcane growers) at Casa de Campo complex in La Romana

The new theory is that he's in Quinta do Perú, a luxurious golf club/neighborhood in the Peninsula of Setúbal, in a house owned by the Espírito Santo family.

That... doesn't look good.


Can you tell us sometthing about the Espirito Santo fannily?

Like I said above, the house seems to be from a branch of the family that is in a legal battle with Ricardo Salgado, former CEO of the extinct Espírito Santo Bank. The family is a very old one and the family was quite close of the Spanish Royal family when they were exiled in Cascais, in the 50's and 60's. The Espírito Santos were one of Portugal's richest families owning a lot of properties and the Espírito Santo Bank, which was Portugal's largest private bank.

The Bank went into bankruptcy in 2014 as illegal money schemes literally destroyed the bank and the former CEO, Ricardo Salgado, is being accused of several crimes that cost the bank almost 12 billion euros in losses. Many illegal funds were created to fund things and divert money. Plus, taxpayers are still bailing out the bank created by the wreckage of the old one, the Novo Banco, almost every year and it's almost always in the political arena. But, the family is split right now. Many parts of the family didn't have any responsibilities in the bank and lost a lot of their fortunes and some branches are in legal fights to receive compensations.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 06, 2020, 01:28:32 AM
How the departure of Juan Carlos was planned

https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2020-08-05/how-the-departure-of-spains-former-king-was-planned.html

Quote
The departure from Spain of former king Juan Carlos I was decided at a face-to-face meeting between himself and his son, the reigning Felipe VI.

On Monday it emerged that Juan Carlos, who reigned for nearly 40 years and guided the country through a peaceful transition to democracy following the death of dictator Francisco Franco, had left Spain for an unknown destination (...)

The Spanish government was aware of the conversations, but the final decision was in the hands of Felipe VI

The downfall of Juan Carlos

https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2020-08-04/the-downfall-of-spains-juan-carlos-i.html

Quote
The annus horribilis of the Spanish monarchy began in April 2012 in Botswana, 7,200 kilometers from Zarzuela Palace, Spain’s royal residence. But it lasted much longer than 365 days. Indeed, it hasn’t ended, despite the fact that Spain’s emeritus king, Juan Carlos I, announced on Monday that he would leave Spain to ensure his reputation would not continue to harm his son, King Felipe VI, who became head of state in 2014. Juan Carlos’ trip to Botswana was not his first safari, nor was the woman he was photographed with, Corinna Larsen, his first female friend. But the royal household would soon discover that this trip would mark a “before and after” for the monarchy  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: BigSerg on August 07, 2020, 04:12:26 PM
Embattled 'emeritus' king Juan Carlos to leave the country

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53642283

Quote
Juan Carlos, 82, made the announcement in a letter to his son, Felipe, to whom he handed power six years ago.

He said he would be available if prosecutors needed to interview him.

In June, Spain's Supreme Court opened an investigation into the alleged involvement of Juan Carlos in a high-speed rail contract in Saudi Arabia.

It was not immediately clear when the former monarch would leave Spain and where he would reside.

It is a humiliating exit for a king who had seemed set to go down in history as the leader who skilfully guided Spain from dictatorship to democracy after the death of General Franco in 1975, BBC Europe correspondent Nick Beake says.

According to Portuguese media, he's going to exile in Cascais in the house the royal family owns there. Don't know if it is the same as his childhood one.

Juan Carlos departed on Sunday, according to Spanish media, but his destination is unknown. His father Juan de Borbón was exiled in Portugal during the Franco regime. The exiled prince and the Caudillo arranged that Juan Carlos would get his education in Spain and the future king made his first visit to the country in 1948. Maybe he will return to Portugal, it'd be interesting...

I'd be happy if Juan Carlos pays taxes for the illegal money as a service to the country, but that is not going to happen. The chances that Juan Carlos ends his days behind the bars are virtually nonexistent. He has a legal shield and the judiciary in Spain is mostly monarchist and leans to the right.

At this point I'd say the PSOE support is key for the monarchy, as the institution could hardly resist if it's only backed by the rightwing parties. However, I suspect that PSOE voters are not very monarchist nowadays

Lol no https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vanitatis.elconfidencial.com/amp/casas-reales/2019-06-20/monarquia-encuesta-vanitatis-votantes-psoe-aprueban-rey_2077678/


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 08, 2020, 01:31:35 AM
Lol no https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vanitatis.elconfidencial.com/amp/casas-reales/2019-06-20/monarquia-encuesta-vanitatis-votantes-psoe-aprueban-rey_2077678/

Great news! I see that poll is one year old and there's another released by Publico this year saying republicans win by a landslide. The question is who do you trust

https://www.publico.es/politica/sondeo-espanoles-prefieren-republica-monarquia-mayoria-absoluta.html

As far as I know, the most recent polls on the monarchy have been conducted by Invymark (La Sexta) and Sociometrica (El Español). Both say the king's approval rates are at the lowest point in recent times.

On July 14 this year (La Bastille day*), it was released an Invymark poll asking some questions related to the monarchy. On the question "how do you feel to this day?" results were the following: 31.2% monarchist, 39% republican and 29.3% neither

https://electomania.es/invymark14jul20/

There are two recent Sociometrica polls. The poll released by El Español in July said that republicans were winning by a narrow margin (49.3% to 48.9%). In the following month the same pollster assures the support for the monarchy skyrocketed due to the departure of the former king (40.8% republic, 54.9% monarchy), which is honestly hard to believe.

https://www.elespanol.com/espana/politica/20200806/salida-espana-juan-carlos-provoca-vuelco-monarquia/510700195_0.html

There are polls for internal consumption commissioned by the royal household, while the CIS raises criticism because the public institute ceased to ask about the monarchy with the access to the throne of Felipe VI.

The lack of reliable polls is another sign of the opacity surrounding the monarchy, in my opinion. I tend to think (as the invymark result suggests) that the monarchsit feeling is increasingly weaker, but republicans are not strong enough and there's a big pocket of undecided and indifferent

* The anniversary of the Spanish Second Republic is on April 14


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Former President tack50 on August 08, 2020, 05:48:39 AM
Worth noting that while they are not really all that reliable, Electomanía's "surveys" found the exact opposite result, with Republicans winning 55-39 on a hypothetical referendum.

https://electomania.es/epmonarquia2a20/

Though I personally find Electomanía's "surveys" quite a bit sensationalistic and clickbaity.

On the flip side, there is this poll from right wing (and pro-monarchy) La Razón, which found a similar result to that of El Español (Monarchy wins 56-37, with young people being Republicans and old people being monarchists)

https://www.larazon.es/espana/20200726/54ezvv4marbgxdheublbbtledm.html

Honestly, the monarchy is just a divisive issue and Spain is divided almost exactly 50-50. Maybe there is a small advantage for monarchists, but even 40% in opposition to the monarchy is an awful data point, especially compared to other monarchies in Europe.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 08, 2020, 11:30:22 PM
El País reports today the decision to move Juan Carlos out of the country, "at this point in time", was made by king Felipe. The main motivation was not pressure from the government, but the collapse in prestige of the monarchy shown by the polls for internal consumption commissioned by the royal household. Pedro Sanchez and some ministers advised the king to distance from his father (Sanchez said that recent revelations were "disturbing"), but the PM would have preferred the 'emeritus king' to remain in the country

https://elpais.com/espana/2020-08-08/la-decision-de-juan-carlos-i.html

In the unlikely eventuality of a referendum, I gather at this moment king Felipe would have a good chance to lose


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Mike88 on August 09, 2020, 05:36:28 PM
What is El Mundo drinking?

Quote
'Operation Cascais': a mansion for Juan Carlos (https://www.elmundo.es/cronica/2020/08/08/5f2dbd7e21efa0cb2a8b45e3.html)

The Portuguese plans of King Emeritus and the three key people who prepare him for his final landing after the summer: an old friend, a woman and the President of the Republic.

This story is a bit ludicrous. The Brito e Cunha branch of the Espirito Santo family helping the King I can believe, now Lili Caneças? Really? And Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa meddling in all of this? That would likely be a violation of the role of the President.

Anyway, Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa has already said this report is madness and any sensible and intelligent person would realize he's the last person in Portugal to intervene in this situation.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Former President tack50 on August 09, 2020, 05:56:26 PM
What is El Mundo drinking?

Quote
'Operation Cascais': a mansion for Juan Carlos (https://www.elmundo.es/cronica/2020/08/08/5f2dbd7e21efa0cb2a8b45e3.html)

The Portuguese plans of King Emeritus and the three key people who prepare him for his final landing after the summer: an old friend, a woman and the President of the Republic.

This story is a bit ludicrous. The Brito e Cunha branch of the Espirito Santo family helping the King I can believe, now Lili Caneças? Really? And Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa meddling in all of this? That would likely be a violation of the role of the President.

Anyway, Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa has already said this report is madness and any sensible and intelligent person would realize he's the last person in Portugal to intervene in this situation.


To be honest despite being the neighbouring country I do not think the Spanish press pays much attention to Portugal (if at all). So no wonder the story is commpletely false


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 09, 2020, 11:15:57 PM
Anyway, Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa has already said this report is madness and any sensible and intelligent person would realize he's the last person in Portugal to intervene in this situation.

Indeed. I know little about the constitutional attributions of the presidency, but it makes no sense that Rebelo de Sousa intervenes. I would have felt embarrassed reading that news


According to first rumours, Juan Carlos went from Porto to the Dominican Republic. Now there's a picture of the emeritus king allegedly taken at his arrival to Abu Dhabi airport on past Monday. I've read in La Vanguardia yesterday that his stay in the Persian Gulf Emirates is provisional and he might be considering New Zealand, a covid-free paradise for sailors, but the journalist is careful enough to say that's only a speculation. Regarding Juan Carlos' passion for sailing, it seems well established that he moved from La Zarzuela (the royal residence near Madrid) to Sanxenxo (a coastal town in Galicia) on Sunday. Juan Carlos has a 'court' of loyal friends there, a reduced circle including a local businessman and members of the Sanxenxo yacht club. People in that town is apparently convinced that Juan Carlos will be back in September to participate in the sailing regattas. Juan Carlos would have said to his close friends the departure is provisional and he "will be back soon", but possibly that's the kind of statements you can expect from someone who is assimilating his new condition. From what I'm gathering, I think it's not correct to say the emeritus king has fled the country escaping justice. I believe, concurring with the last article I linked from El País, that Juan Carlos has been forced to leave the country against his wishes. But Juan Carlos is not going to be obedient in 'exile' and he will go wherever he pleases, even if his movements are embarrassing for the government or the royal household. Expect all kinds of incredible stories


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Mike88 on August 10, 2020, 05:46:14 AM
Anyway, Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa has already said this report is madness and any sensible and intelligent person would realize he's the last person in Portugal to intervene in this situation.

Indeed. I know little about the constitutional attributions of the presidency, but it makes no sense that Rebelo de Sousa intervenes. I would have felt embarrassed reading that news


According to first rumours, Juan Carlos went from Porto to the Dominican Republic. Now there's a picture of the emeritus king allegedly taken at his arrival to Abu Dhabi airport on past Monday. I've read in La Vanguardia yesterday that his stay in the Persian Gulf Emirates is provisional and he might be considering New Zealand, a covid-free paradise for sailors, but the journalist is careful enough to say that's only a speculation. Regarding Juan Carlos' passion for sailing, it seems well established that he moved from La Zarzuela (the royal residence near Madrid) to Sanxenxo (a coastal town in Galicia) on Sunday. Juan Carlos has a 'court' of loyal friends there, a reduced circle including a local businessman and members of the Sanxenxo yacht club. People in that town is apparently convinced that Juan Carlos will be back in September to participate in the sailing regattas. Juan Carlos would have said to his close friends the departure is provisional and he "will be back soon", but possibly that's the kind of statements you can expect from someone who is assimilating his new condition. From what I'm gathering, I think it's not correct to say the emeritus king has fled the country escaping justice. I believe, concurring with the last article I linked from El País, that Juan Carlos has been forced to leave the country against his wishes. But Juan Carlos is not going to be obedient in 'exile' and he will go wherever he pleases, even if his movements are embarrassing for the government or the royal household. Expect all kinds of incredible stories

The President has no executive powers and the "big powers" he/she has is vetoing laws, which can be surpassed by Parliament at the 3rd consecutive veto, nominate/dismiss the PM and "the atomic bomb" of dissolving Parliament by his own decision, which is rarely used, and only once happened. Even foreign trips of the President need to be approved by Parliament or he cannot leave the country.

The stories about are becoming very silly and this whole secrecy is becoming stupid. There's no reason, right now, for not announcing where he is and Juan Carlos could easily give a written, or even a in person, statement describing his reasons to do this and that he will return to Spain several times in the future. Prolonging isn't going to help.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Former President tack50 on August 10, 2020, 05:55:16 AM
Regarding where King Juan Carlos is located now I will say that tons of possible destinations have been rumoured. Indeed, Portugal is one of them. However, the Dominican Republic and Abu Dhabi have also been discussed as destinations for him.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 10, 2020, 07:50:12 AM
The stories about are becoming very silly and this whole secrecy is becoming stupid. There's no reason, right now, for not announcing where he is and Juan Carlos could easily give a written, or even a in person, statement describing his reasons to do this and that he will return to Spain several times in the future. Prolonging isn't going to help.

I agree, but it's not clear that Juan Carlos is going to return unless he's requested to appear in court. Keep in mind that apparently Juan Carlos was persuaded to leave Spain, because members of the royal household found this arrangement the least bad in order to try to save the institution. I don't think Juan Carlos accepts his 'sacrifice' willingly, it's just that he's been 'persuaded' in a similar manner he had to apologize grudgingly for his hunting incident in Botswana. It's not easy for a person that has been sanctified in life -thus allowed to do whatever he pleased, protected by the country's elite- to accept his current situation. Personally I would have preferred that the aged Juan Carlos was just allowed to retire in Sanxenxo, but apparently that's not in the best interest of the monarchy

Regarding the mythicizing of the Hero of the Transition, I think it's interesting this interview with the historian Julian Casanova in La Voz de Galicia. Personally I consider he puts the things right. Juan Carlos was not the man sent by the providence to guide us towards democracy, but a man who played a very important role as the head of the state designated by Franco. He made correct and transcendental decisions, such as appearing on television dressed in full uniform by February 1981. Quite possibly he had the history of his family in mind, as well as the precedent of his brother-in-law Costantine of Greece (who sided with the Greek junta and later had to leave his country). Maybe the root of his late problems and bad decisions is the aura of sanctity his supporters bestowed upon him

https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/espana/2020/08/08/julian-casanova-juan-carlos-i-dio-aureola-santidad-sacralizacion-permitia-/00031596875297517553495.htm


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: CumbrianLefty on August 10, 2020, 09:37:38 AM
Maybe the root of his late problems and bad decisions is the aura of sanctity his supporters bestowed upon him

https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/espana/2020/08/08/julian-casanova-juan-carlos-i-dio-aureola-santidad-sacralizacion-permitia-/00031596875297517553495.htm

Oh, there must be little doubt there.

Being quasi-sanctified as "the man who saved democracy" would likely go to most people's heads tbf.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Mike88 on August 10, 2020, 09:41:27 AM
Regarding the mythicizing of the Hero of the Transition, I think it's interesting this interview with the historian Julian Casanova in La Voz de Galicia. Personally I consider he puts the things right. Juan Carlos was not the man sent by the providence to guide us towards democracy, but a man who played a very important role as the head of the state designated by Franco. He made correct and transcendental decisions, such as appearing on television dressed in full uniform by February 1981. Quite possibly he had the history of his family in mind, as well as the precedent of his brother-in-law Costantine of Greece (who sided with the Greek junta and later had to leave his country). Maybe the root of his late problems and bad decisions is the aura of sanctity his supporters bestowed upon him

https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/espana/2020/08/08/julian-casanova-juan-carlos-i-dio-aureola-santidad-sacralizacion-permitia-/00031596875297517553495.htm

The article is quite neutral and it gives a good assessment of Juan Carlos. He did in fact good things for Spain but that doesn't meant he was a"saint", no one is. There's many examples across history of good leaders that by the end did many mistakes as they thought they were untouchable.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Former President tack50 on August 10, 2020, 10:36:09 AM
When France sends its royalty, they are not sending their best. They are not sending you. They're sending people that have a lot of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on August 10, 2020, 10:54:43 AM
When France sends its royalty, they are not sending their best. They are not sending you. They're sending people that have a lot of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.

Thanks, now I know what to say in case I meet a neo-Bourbonist.

(neo-Bourbonists = a small group of crazy revisionist junkies nostalgic for the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 10, 2020, 12:28:23 PM
The article is quite neutral and it gives a good assessment of Juan Carlos. He did in fact good , actually for Spain but that doesn't meant he was a"saint", no one is. There's many examples across history of good leaders that by the end did many mistakes as they thought they were untouchable.

There's a difference between neutrality and objectivity. Nobody is neutral, actually. Anyway we have been taught in this country that Juan Carlos was a person of great virtues and vision, a providential man who guided his country through the transition. Any deviation from that narrative may be deemed heretic by certain people. The fact is that he wasn't alone in that journey, as Casanova remarks, but accompanied by a certain Francoist elite willing to transition and opposition leaders unwilling a violent confrontation. Juan Carlos was neither a saint nor a genius, but he made some correct decisions in the past that were good for democracy in this country.


Thanks, now I know what to say in case I meet a neo-Bourbonist.

(neo-Bourbonists = a small group of crazy revisionist junkies nostalgic for the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies)

FTR the full name of the emeritus king is Juan Carlos Alfonso Víctor María de Borbón y Borbón-Dos Sicilias


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: BigSerg on August 11, 2020, 07:57:14 AM
Podemos collapses and senior officials are charged in an investigation

https://www.abc.es/espana/abci-juez-imputa-estrecho-colaborador-pablo-iglesias-y-tesorero-podemos-financiacion-partido-202008111113_noticia_amp.html?__twitter_impression=true


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: CumbrianLefty on August 11, 2020, 08:06:57 AM
For those of us who can't read Spanish, a summary?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Former President tack50 on August 11, 2020, 08:18:30 AM
For those of us who can't read Spanish, a summary?

Well, that is actually an exaggeration, especially the "Podemos collapses" lol

Anyways, the summary is that the Treasurer and the Campaign Managers from Podemos have been charged with illegally financing the party

This is somewhat reminiscent of the Gürtel case from PP a while back, where the PP tresurer was also accused of illegally financing the party as well. (or if you really care to go back that far, the Filesa case where PSOE was also accused of illegal financing in the late 80s)

In any case, they've just been charged. Now it will take a long while until those charges are actually confirmed or dropped. And if confirmed it will take years until the trial finally ends. So we are here for a long while.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Mike88 on August 11, 2020, 09:15:50 AM
For those of us who can't read Spanish, a summary?

Well, that is actually an exaggeration, especially the "Podemos collapses" lol

Anyways, the summary is that the Treasurer and the Campaign Managers from Podemos have been charged with illegally financing the party

This is somewhat reminiscent of the Gürtel case from PP a while back, where the PP tresurer was also accused of illegally financing the party as well. (or if you really care to go back that far, the Filesa case where PSOE was also accused of illegal financing in the late 80s)

In any case, they've just been charged. Now it will take a long while until those charges are actually confirmed or dropped. And if confirmed it will take years until the trial finally ends. So we are here for a long while.

Or a more simpler summary is that Podemos is just another member of the "caste", alongside PP, PSOE and others.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on August 11, 2020, 09:46:17 AM
For those of us who can't read Spanish, a summary?

Well, that is actually an exaggeration, especially the "Podemos collapses" lol

Anyways, the summary is that the Treasurer and the Campaign Managers from Podemos have been charged with illegally financing the party

This is somewhat reminiscent of the Gürtel case from PP a while back, where the PP tresurer was also accused of illegally financing the party as well. (or if you really care to go back that far, the Filesa case where PSOE was also accused of illegal financing in the late 80s)

In any case, they've just been charged. Now it will take a long while until those charges are actually confirmed or dropped. And if confirmed it will take years until the trial finally ends. So we are here for a long while.

Or a more simpler summary is that Podemos is just another member of the "caste", alongside PP, PSOE and others.

Wow, I didn't know that we had exported the term "caste" in that sense.
The phrase "X is just another member of the caste alongside Y and Z" sounds just SO Italian.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 11, 2020, 09:53:13 AM
For those of us who can't read Spanish, a summary?

Well, that is actually an exaggeration, especially the "Podemos collapses" lol

Anyways, the summary is that the Treasurer and the Campaign Managers from Podemos have been charged with illegally financing the party

This is somewhat reminiscent of the Gürtel case from PP a while back, where the PP tresurer was also accused of illegally financing the party as well. (or if you really care to go back that far, the Filesa case where PSOE was also accused of illegal financing in the late 80s)

In any case, they've just been charged. Now it will take a long while until those charges are actually confirmed or dropped. And if confirmed it will take years until the trial finally ends. So we are here for a long while.

Or a more simpler summary is that Podemos is just another member of the "caste", alongside PP, PSOE and others.

"La Casta" was a popular expression reflective of a particular moment of anger, but it' s a bit outdated now. "Juancarlistas" are a bit old-fashioned, too. I never bought the simplistic vision, but I think that slogan had a raison d'être. It served the purpose of catalyzing a desire for change and as a revulsive against the conformist political elites, in a moment of terrible economic crisis and poverty of expectations (especially for young people). The Podemos momentum passed away and nowadays Pablo Iglesias has become a member of the establishment, something like an Euro-communist


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: BigSerg on August 11, 2020, 10:20:39 AM
For those of us who can't read Spanish, a summary?

Well, that is actually an exaggeration, especially the "Podemos collapses" lol

Anyways, the summary is that the Treasurer and the Campaign Managers from Podemos have been charged with illegally financing the party

This is somewhat reminiscent of the Gürtel case from PP a while back, where the PP tresurer was also accused of illegally financing the party as well. (or if you really care to go back that far, the Filesa case where PSOE was also accused of illegal financing in the late 80s)

In any case, they've just been charged. Now it will take a long while until those charges are actually confirmed or dropped. And if confirmed it will take years until the trial finally ends. So we are here for a long while.

Or a more simpler summary is that Podemos is just another member of the "caste", alongside PP, PSOE and others.

The investigation is horrific, it is an almost unique case in Spain. Specific people are not being charged. The whole political party is being charged.

It should be noted that in the history of Spain, only the PP has been condemned as a political party.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 11, 2020, 10:23:31 AM
For those of us who can't read Spanish, a summary?

Well, that is actually an exaggeration, especially the "Podemos collapses" lol

Anyways, the summary is that the Treasurer and the Campaign Managers from Podemos have been charged with illegally financing the party

This is somewhat reminiscent of the Gürtel case from PP a while back, where the PP tresurer was also accused of illegally financing the party as well. (or if you really care to go back that far, the Filesa case where PSOE was also accused of illegal financing in the late 80s)

In any case, they've just been charged. Now it will take a long while until those charges are actually confirmed or dropped. And if confirmed it will take years until the trial finally ends. So we are here for a long while.

Wait. I think there is a difference between "imputar" ("investigate") and "acusar" ("charge"). Judicial inquiry may end in formal charges or not, it depends on the conclusions. Even in the case inquiry leads to formal accusation, I doubt the alleged wrongdoings would be comparable to the colossal corruption scheme known as the "Gürtel case", that ultimately caused the fall of Mariano Rajoy. I'll wait a little to give an opinion, because I haven't paid too much attention and there's too much media noise

By the moment I can tell the inquiry is motivated by the accusations made by a lawyer who was employed by Podemos and sacked on alleged sexaul harassment. I know this particular lawyer has made his accusations against Podemos in some media (for instance, El Mundo), but as I said before I haven't paid attention until now.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: BigSerg on August 11, 2020, 10:26:48 AM
For those of us who can't read Spanish, a summary?

Well, that is actually an exaggeration, especially the "Podemos collapses" lol

Anyways, the summary is that the Treasurer and the Campaign Managers from Podemos have been charged with illegally financing the party

This is somewhat reminiscent of the Gürtel case from PP a while back, where the PP tresurer was also accused of illegally financing the party as well. (or if you really care to go back that far, the Filesa case where PSOE was also accused of illegal financing in the late 80s)

In any case, they've just been charged. Now it will take a long while until those charges are actually confirmed or dropped. And if confirmed it will take years until the trial finally ends. So we are here for a long while.

Wait. I think there is a difference between "imputar" ("investigate") and "acusar" ("charge"). Judicial inquiry may end in formal charges or not, it depends on the conclusions. Even in the case inquiry leads to formal accusation, I doubt the alleged wrongdoings would be comparable to the colossal corruption scheme known as the "Gürtel case", that ultimately caused the fall of Mariano Rajoy. I'll wait a little to give an opinion, because I haven't paid too much attention and there's too much media noise
It's exactly the same as the case Gürtel, the whole party is being investigated not just a few people.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.europapress.es/nacional/noticia-juez-imputa-tambien-podemos-persona-juridica-causa-financiacion-partido-20200811153314.html

"Juridical person"


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 11, 2020, 10:40:47 AM
No. Court proceedings have a timing. The Gürtel case" is already over and this one of Podemos is only in a phase pf judicial inquiry. On the other hand, the magnitude of the Gürtel scheme is so enormous, that comparisons seem disproportionate or disingenuous. In case there are proven wrongdoings, there will be a verdict and a sentence


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Mike88 on August 11, 2020, 11:14:52 AM
For those of us who can't read Spanish, a summary?

Well, that is actually an exaggeration, especially the "Podemos collapses" lol

Anyways, the summary is that the Treasurer and the Campaign Managers from Podemos have been charged with illegally financing the party

This is somewhat reminiscent of the Gürtel case from PP a while back, where the PP tresurer was also accused of illegally financing the party as well. (or if you really care to go back that far, the Filesa case where PSOE was also accused of illegal financing in the late 80s)

In any case, they've just been charged. Now it will take a long while until those charges are actually confirmed or dropped. And if confirmed it will take years until the trial finally ends. So we are here for a long while.

Or a more simpler summary is that Podemos is just another member of the "caste", alongside PP, PSOE and others.

"La Casta" was a popular expression reflective of a particular moment of anger, but it' s a bit outdated now. "Juancarlistas" are a bit old-fashioned, too. I never bought the simplistic vision, but I think that slogan had a raison d'être. It served the purpose of catalyzing a desire for change and as a revulsive against the conformist political elites, in a moment of terrible economic crisis and poverty of expectations (especially for young people). The Podemos momentum passed away and nowadays Pablo Iglesias has become a member of the establishment, something like an Euro-communist

Yes, I know it's a bit outdated, from 2014/15. I wrote it because it was a trademark of Podemos, alongside the "tick tock" one, and it played over and over around here.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Former President tack50 on August 11, 2020, 11:43:14 AM


Wow, I didn't know that we had exported the term "caste" in that sense.
The phrase "X is just another member of the caste alongside Y and Z" sounds just SO Italian.

Worth noting that, during their early and meteoric rise (2014-2015), many Spanish political commentators noted the similarities between the Italian M5S and the Spanish Podemos. The early Podemos essencially called the old parties "the caste", claimed to be "neither left nor right; but the people vs those in power" and was very populist

Of course, unlike M5S, eventually Podemos moved into a more generic left wing populist party, but those similarities were there.

(the other main comparison of Podemos at the time was with the Greek Syriza I think)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: BigSerg on August 11, 2020, 12:12:44 PM
Podemos 2017 🤡🤡



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 11, 2020, 12:15:34 PM


Wow, I didn't know that we had exported the term "caste" in that sense.
The phrase "X is just another member of the caste alongside Y and Z" sounds just SO Italian.

Worth noting that, during their early and meteoric rise (2014-2015), many Spanish political commentators noted the similarities between the Italian M5S and the Spanish Podemos. The early Podemos essencially called the old parties "the caste", claimed to be "neither left nor right; but the people vs those in power" and was very populist

Of course, unlike M5S, eventually Podemos moved into a more generic left wing populist party, but those similarities were there.

(the other main comparison of Podemos at the time was with the Greek Syriza I think)

Never forget that Podemos was founded by political scientists. You may like or dislike them (I have mixed feelings), but it's undeniable Iglesias, Errejon, Monedero and the others are intelectually more brilliant than the average politicians in this country. They launched Podemos in the right moment and with a clear purpose, and they were astoundingly successful provoking a panic attack to the elites labelled "La Casta". The similitudes between M5S and Podemos are only superficial. The Grillini are anti-political in nature, a pure protest party. The initial Podemos was highly influenced by sophisticated political theories (Ernesto Laclau's theory of populism) and the main advocate of this path was Errejon. They said they were "neither left nor right" to appeal a broader audience, but Podemos was always left-wing and hyper-political. Later there were differences between Iglesias and Errejon (partly strategic and political, party personal). With the defeat of Errejon at Vistalegre II (early 2017), Podemos abandoned the left-wing populist path to become a somewhat more orthodox leftwing organization.

 Anyway the present organizational weakness is one of the main causes of the bad results of Podemos at local and regional level. I don't know if organizational disfunctions are related to that recent inquiry


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on August 11, 2020, 12:43:22 PM

Wow, I didn't know that we had exported the term "caste" in that sense.
The phrase "X is just another member of the caste alongside Y and Z" sounds just SO Italian.

Worth noting that, during their early and meteoric rise (2014-2015), many Spanish political commentators noted the similarities between the Italian M5S and the Spanish Podemos. The early Podemos essencially called the old parties "the caste", claimed to be "neither left nor right; but the people vs those in power" and was very populist

Of course, unlike M5S, eventually Podemos moved into a more generic left wing populist party, but those similarities were there.

(the other main comparison of Podemos at the time was with the Greek Syriza I think)

A party started by a comedian and a party started by political scientists are... pretty different.
Anyway, M5S has become part of the caste, too.
M5S is also most noted in Italy for their absurdly strict internal rules.
In the previous legislature, M5S lost 21 Deputies out of 109 and 19 Senators out of 54 in five years.
In the current legislature, they have lost 22 Deputies out of 222 and 14 Senators out of 109 in slightly more than two years.
I don't know if there is anything similar in Podemos.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Skye on August 11, 2020, 01:03:40 PM
They said they were "neither left nor right" to appeal a broader audience, but Podemos was always left-wing and hyper-political.

To put things from a different perspective, back when Podemos was experiencing their meteoric rise, in Venezuela they were immediately linked to chavismo (the ties existed, after all), talking about "chavistas in Spain" was all the rage in pro-opposition circles back then, and among them, many watched the results to the 2015 election nervously.

In other words, in Venezuela, they were seen as far leftists there from the get-go.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 11, 2020, 01:36:28 PM
They said they were "neither left nor right" to appeal a broader audience, but Podemos was always left-wing and hyper-political.

To put things from a different perspective, back when Podemos was experiencing their meteoric rise, in Venezuela they were immediately linked to chavismo (the ties existed, after all), talking about "chavistas in Spain" was all the rage in pro-opposition circles back then, and among them, many watched the results to the 2015 election nervously.

In other words, in Venezuela, they were seen as far leftists there from the get-go.

I know. Some ties existed and the Podemos founders were sympathizers sometime (and maybe some of them still are). I think they never denied that. There were allegations on Venezuelan funding as well that have never been proven, but made a lot of noise in media. On the alleged chavismo, Iglesias and Errejon have stated the path is following Venezuela is undesirable for Spain. They are smart enough to realize that's a trainwreck and I doubt that embracing chavismo is compatible with electoral success in Spain. A total abjuration would have not been credible (Carmena has labelled Maduro a dictator, Errejon can't do that)  On the alleged and unproven financing, well... I said before they provoked a panic attack. As for their ideological background, it was always clear they came from the left and even from the far-left.

With regard to M5S, it's obvious the Podemos founders noticed their communication tactics and quite possibly adapted some of them ("La Casta!")


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 12, 2020, 08:26:47 AM
How the fate of Juan Carlos was decided (it's the English version of an article I linked before, worth reading)

https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2020-08-12/how-the-fate-of-spains-juan-carlos-i-was-decided.html

Quote
It’s Friday, July 31 and Spain’s regional leaders are gathering in San Millán de la Cogolla in La Rioja for the first face-to-face meeting with Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez in 14 weeks – during the coronavirus lockdown, the weekly discussions had been held via video link.

Sánchez wants to put forward an image of cohesion and unity in the face of an economic crisis of historic proportions, and a growing number Covid-19 outbreaks that are threatening to unleash a second wave of the pandemic. Even Basque leader Iñigo Urkullu – originally reticent to attend – is at the event, making Catalan premier Quim Torra the only absentee.

King Felipe VI, having just finished his tour of Spain’s 17 regions with a visit to Asturias the day before, is on hand to inaugurate the conference. The program has been worked out in meticulous detail, but at the last minute everything changes to accommodate a private meeting between the king and Sánchez. No one knows what it is about (...)  

Twitter storm triggered by a comment of Pablo Iglesias on Plot Against America, a series directed by David Simon (the creator of the legendary 'The Wire')

https://english.elpais.com/verne/2020-08-12/the-weekend-that-the-creator-of-the-wire-spent-arguing-with-twitter-users-about-spain.html

Quote
 Pablo Iglesias, the leader of anti-austerity political party Unidas Podemos and one of Spain’s four deputy prime ministers, enjoys a good TV show. A few years ago, he gave a box set of the HBO hit Game of Thrones to King Felipe VI, and has used his Twitter account to rave about the French series Baron Noir, Italian drama Gomorrah and US classic The Wire. Last Friday, Iglesias took to his Twitter account again to recommend another series by The Wire creator, David Simon, called The Plot Against America.

“I just finished watching The Plot Against America. David Simon and Ed Burns never disappoint but the moment in which the series has come out gives it special meaning. Sometimes, the success of fascism seems inconceivable to us, and yet sympathizers are always close.”

(...)

The Twitter storm began on Saturday, when Simon discovered that he had been mentioned in hundreds of messages thanks to Iglesias’s tweet recommending The Plot Against America. Retweeting Iglesias’s message, Simon wrote: “So, if my poor Spanish holds, this fellow liked the bent of a miniseries and tagged me. And so now into a second day, my Twitter feed is full of Francoists and Catalunyans screaming at each other in languages not my own. Well okay. It’s 1937 again.  the fascists. No pasaran [sic]” – a reference to the anti-fascist slogan “They shall not pass.”

But this was not the only message The Wire creator shared; he subsequently spent most of Saturday and a good part of Sunday arguing with Twitter users about fascism. He insulted Franco and the Francoists and criticized the United States for having supported dictators during the Cold War. The matter of Catalan independence was also brought up with Simon saying that a referendum, where leaders are “willing to count votes,” was preferable to the coup of July 1936 (...)

Simon said there's a script for a drama series following the international Brigades during the Spanish Civil War and said calling "fellow" to Iglesias didn't mean anything, claiming that he's not a "commie" but a "socie". He said something about the "fascie madre" of some troll and discussed about Catalan independence with another user...



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 14, 2020, 01:08:33 AM
José Manuel Calvente, the lawyer who worked for Podemos and filed a complaint for alleged mususe of funds, declared before the judge on July 29 for more than three hours. The full audio was sent to the parties at trial after Vox requested it (the Abascal party is acting as private prosecutor, something that is allowed in Spain for some weird reason). Calvente ratified his accusations, alleging the party billed "false services", paid "unjustified bonus" and transferred money in nontransparent ways. However, when the judge asked him to go into details, Mr Calvente said he has no evidence and is basing his accusations on things he heard to other party employees. They told him about the alleged irregularities, such as the alleged fake billings in favour of Neurona consulting (owned or participated by Podemos co-founder JC Monedero). When the judge asked him about five campaign contracts deemed false in the complaint, Mr Calvente rectified saying "they could be false". "I'm not making a definitive statement", said Calvente to the judge, but talking about "a number of indications" told to him by others. Podemos filed a motion to dismiss the complaint, claiming it's based on "rumours and speculations".

By the moment it doesn't look like theere's a solid case against Podemos, leaving aside that Calvente saw "strange things" and some people told him about alleged wrongdoings. It's true that Podemos is the second party after the PP under investigation* as a legal person, but I don't see anything remotely comparable to the Gürtel scheme regardless what the plaintiff says. Another question is that the inquiry finds evidence of irregularities by other means.

* The current legal term in Spain is investigado ("investigated"), but the press is still using the old term imputado, which is a word not easy to translate as it has a connotation of "accused" without actually meaning a formal accusation


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: BigSerg on August 15, 2020, 07:35:23 AM
José Manuel Calvente, the lawyer who worked for Podemos and filed a complaint for alleged mususe of funds, declared before the judge on July 29 for more than three hours. The full audio was sent to the parties at trial after Vox requested it (the Abascal party is acting as private prosecutor, something that is allowed in Spain for some weird reason). Calvente ratified his accusations, alleging the party billed "false services", paid "unjustified bonus" and transferred money in nontransparent ways. However, when the judge asked him to go into details, Mr Calvente said he has no evidence and is basing his accusations on things he heard to other party employees. They told him about the alleged irregularities, such as the alleged fake billings in favour of Neurona consulting (owned or participated by Podemos co-founder JC Monedero). When the judge asked him about five campaign contracts deemed false in the complaint, Mr Calvente rectified saying "they could be false". "I'm not making a definitive statement", said Calvente to the judge, but talking about "a number of indications" told to him by others. Podemos filed a motion to dismiss the complaint, claiming it's based on "rumours and speculations".

By the moment it doesn't look like theere's a solid case against Podemos, leaving aside that Calvente saw "strange things" and some people told him about alleged wrongdoings. It's true that Podemos is the second party after the PP under investigation* as a legal person, but I don't see anything remotely comparable to the Gürtel scheme regardless what the plaintiff says. Another question is that the inquiry finds evidence of irregularities by other means.

* The current legal term in Spain is investigado ("investigated"), but the press is still using the old term imputado, which is a word not easy to translate as it has a connotation of "accused" without actually meaning a formal accusation

Other senior officials have described irregular payments as "solidarity," excusing themselves without denying anything.

You definitely don't say those things unless you're guilty.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffingtonpost.es/amp/entry/monedero-caja-b-podemos_es_5f34fb63c5b6fc009a61ddec/



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 15, 2020, 08:54:52 AM
Lol, is that the real account of Pablo Echenique? It's not that I'm a fan of Echenique and Monedero (actually I can't stand them), but re-tweeting lame impersonators to back your arguments is not a great idea. As for the caja de solidaridad ( "solidarity fund"), my qualified opinion as a comunista de chalé ("villa Communist") is that there's no case


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: BigSerg on August 15, 2020, 09:15:06 AM
Lol, is that the real account of Pablo Echenique? It's not that I'm a fan of Echenique and Monedero (actually I can't stand them), but re-tweeting lame impersonators to back your arguments is not a great idea. As for the caja de solidaridad ( "solidarity fund"), my qualified opinion as a comunista de chalé ("villa Communist") is that there's no case

Of course...

https://amp.elmundo.es/madrid/2020/08/12/5f341ea8fdddff62668b456e.html?__twitter_impression=true

Monedero, who is also a contributor to the program presented this Thursday by Ana Terradillos, has explained that "as there is a limitation of salary" in Podemos, "the part that members do not receive" "goes to a solidarity box that is distributed".

🤡🤡🤡


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Former President tack50 on August 15, 2020, 09:37:51 AM
For what is worth, while Monedero was one of the founders of Podemos and indeed a big figure early on, he was also one of the earliest to get "purged". Indeed he did not even last to Podemos' 2nd election as a party, and resigned all his positions on April of 2015.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: BigSerg on August 15, 2020, 09:55:07 AM
For what is worth, while Monedero was one of the founders of Podemos and indeed a big figure early on, he was also one of the earliest to get "purged". Indeed he did not even last to Podemos' 2nd election as a party, and resigned all his positions on April of 2015.

That means nothing, he claims that the "solidarity fund" exists, no matter if it was in 2015.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 15, 2020, 10:14:37 AM
But there's nothing wrong with that. Neither wage ceiling nor the solidarity fund are illegal.

 I find the comparison between the Podemos "solidarity fund" and the PP's "B fund" (parallel accounting) quite disingenuous, to be honest. I see El Mundo is trying to involve Manuela Carmena, too (I suspect it's based on speculations, without actual evidence). On the one hand it's funny because the relationship between Podemos and the former Mayor of Madrid became so strained, on the other hand I dislike very much sensationalism and partisan journalism.

 It is well established with actual evidence that the Vox leader Santiago Abascal earned a good salary as the chairman of a public foundation without employees or real functions, funded by the Madrid regional government under Esperanza Aguirre. But reaching the top heights of hypocrisy, one of the main Vox banners is crying for the waste of public funds. Vox leaders are notorious for their absolute disregard of truth -as good pupils of the Trump's academy- and part of the Vox success is due to the fact that voters don't care at all about the truth. Vox was funded by an obscure Iranian group, as Javier Ortega Smith admitted, but now it's acting as a private prosecutor against Podemos...

I think it's alright the judiciary investigates alleged wrongdoings, but I don't like double standards


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: BigSerg on August 15, 2020, 12:45:18 PM
"solidarity fund"








Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 17, 2020, 04:33:29 AM
Two weeks after the departure of former king Juan Carlos, the government's discomfort increases due to the secrecy surrounding his whereabouts. Pedro Sanchez is committed not to reveal where is Juan Carlos, claiming it's up the royal household or the emeritus king himself to inform the public

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-08-13/spanish-pm-refuses-to-reveal-whereabouts-of-emeritus-king-juan-carlos.html

Quote
Since August 4, the whereabouts of the father of the current monarch, Felipe VI, have been unknown, something that is becoming an uncomfortable issue for the central government. Questioned by reporters on Wednesday, Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez said that the responsibility for providing information as to the former king’s whereabouts lie with the royal household and Juan Carlos himself. “We are different institutions,” he insisted

Sánchez went as far as to say he didn't know JC's whereabouts, despite the government provides escort to the former king. Later the PM argued his cabinet and the royal household represent different branches of the government (executive power and head of the state), the same argument used to avoid questions about the Podemos inquiry (in more recent news, El País reports the government closes tanks before the accusations). Basically government sources think the secrecy and the subsequent rumours and speculations don't benefit the monarchy at all. The more likely reason for that secrecy is the personal interest of the former king, who does not want to be disturbed. Maybe king Felipe respects his wishes because his father's sacrifice going to 'exile' is hard enough. Sooner or later some photographer will take a picture somewhere, or some journalist will discover the whereabouts of Juan Carlos



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: BigSerg on August 17, 2020, 10:48:08 AM


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: It's Perro Sanxe wot won it on August 17, 2020, 10:54:27 AM
The Royal Household has finally confirmed the whereabouts of former King Juan Carlos: He's been in the United Arab Emirates since August 3, which is the same place where the photo of him disembarking a plane was allegedly taken.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 17, 2020, 11:02:27 AM
The Royal Household has finally confirmed the whereabouts of former King Juan Carlos: He's been in the United Arab Emirates since August 3, which is the same place where the photo of him disembarking a plane was allegedly taken.

Excellent news! I hope our friends in the Emirates are treating him like a king!

Welcome to the forum, btw


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Skye on August 17, 2020, 11:40:20 AM
Rather big news. Pablo Casado has removed the controversial Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo from her post as spokesman (?) of the PP in Congress. Her post will go to Cuca Gamarra. Jose Luis Martínez-Almeida, the mayor of Madrid, was also made the national spokesman for the party:



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 17, 2020, 11:55:14 AM
Wow. Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo is a hardliner and a free verse, too. She has been advocating a "concentration government" with the PSOE at her own peril and despite she has been very harsh with Sánchez. The current Mayor of Madrid has a better public image and is less controversial than the Madrid premier. Cuca Gamarra is a former mayor of Logroño and has been the PP's Deputy Secretary for Social Affairs until now. Ana Pastor is a former Health minister, quite moderate in her manners and a Rajoy loyalist. It's up to see what is going to be the tone and the strategy of the PP from now on...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: It's Perro Sanxe wot won it on August 17, 2020, 12:06:21 PM
Wow. Cayetana Álvarez de?Toledo is a hardliner and a free verse, too. She has been advocating a "concentration government" with the PSOE at her own peril and despite she has been very harsh with Sánchez. The current Mayor of Madrid has a better public image and is less controversial than the Madrid premier. Cuca Gamarra is a former mayor of Logroño and has been the PP's Deputy Secretary for Social Affairs until now. It's up to see what is going to be the tone and the strategy of the PP from now on...

I think that with these changes, Casado is signaling a more centrist tone and strategy. After Feijóo's success in Galicia and Iturgaiz's failure in the Basque Country, it seems like the logical course of action. Capitalizing on Almeida's cross-party appeal is also a smart move.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: It's Perro Sanxe wot won it on August 17, 2020, 01:31:47 PM
Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo just held a very belligerent press conference, coherent with her style. She harshly criticized the leadership of the PP and revealed details about her private conversation with Pablo Casado (who she kept referring to as "Mr. Casado") this morning and about internal affairs of the party (she revealed that she wanted to allow a conscience vote on moral issues for MPs and that the parliamentary leadership lacked autonomy due to the personal interference of General Secretary Teodoro García-Egea, among other things).

She stated her clear opposition to Pablo Casado's decision to sack her, which according to her is bad for the party and the country. She said that Casado told her he was unhappy about her outspokenness (which he considers a challenge to his authority) and her opposition to talks with the Government on the Budget and the appointment of judges (from which she was completely excluded). She also claimed that he disliked her focus on "culture war" issues like feminism and the legacy of Franco's dictatorship.

In regards to her future, she didn't say whether she would resign from her seat or leave the party. She will spend a couple of days with her daughters before making any decision.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Skye on August 17, 2020, 02:19:32 PM
Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo just held a very belligerent press conference, coherent with her style. She harshly criticized the leadership of the PP and revealed details about her private conversation with Pablo Casado (who she kept referring to as "Mr. Casado") this morning and about internal affairs of the party (she revealed that she wanted to allow a conscience vote on moral issues for MPs and that the parliamentary leadership lacked autonomy due to the personal interference of General Secretary Teodoro García-Egea, among other things).

She stated her clear opposition to Pablo Casado's decision to sack her, which according to her is bad for the party and the country. She said that Casado told her he was unhappy about her outspokenness (which he considers a challenge to his authority) and her opposition to talks with the Government on the Budget and the appointment of judges (from which she was completely excluded). She also claimed that he disliked her focus on "culture war" issues like feminism and the legacy of Franco's dictatorship.

In regards to her future, she didn't say whether she would resign from her seat or leave the party. She will spend a couple of days with her daughters before making any decision.

I mean, I do believe party members don't need to behave in a monolithic manner, but if you are a party's spokesperson in Congress, your statements probably need to reflect the direction the party leaders want.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 18, 2020, 06:19:26 AM
Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo just held a very belligerent press conference, coherent with her style. She harshly criticized the leadership of the PP and revealed details about her private conversation with Pablo Casado (who she kept referring to as "Mr. Casado") this morning and about internal affairs of the party (she revealed that she wanted to allow a conscience vote on moral issues for MPs and that the parliamentary leadership lacked autonomy due to the personal interference of General Secretary Teodoro García-Egea, among other things).

She stated her clear opposition to Pablo Casado's decision to sack her, which according to her is bad for the party and the country. She said that Casado told her he was unhappy about her outspokenness (which he considers a challenge to his authority) and her opposition to talks with the Government on the Budget and the appointment of judges (from which she was completely excluded). She also claimed that he disliked her focus on "culture war" issues like feminism and the legacy of Franco's dictatorship.

In regards to her future, she didn't say whether she would resign from her seat or leave the party. She will spend a couple of days with her daughters before making any decision.

I mean, I do believe party members don't need to behave in a monolithic manner, but if you are a party's spokesperson in Congress, your statements probably need to reflect the direction the party leaders want.

Sure, but remember that Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo was personally chosen by Pablo Casado (as well the Madrid premier Isabel Díaz Ayuso). Casado picked the Marchioness of Casa Fuerte (that's the nobility title held by the sacked spokeswoman) due to ideological affinity, because both are hardliners and heirs of José María Aznar and Esperanza Aguirre. Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo is an educated woman, articulate and good in rhetorics. But she's also a radical rightwinger sometimes too close to Vox, as well too outspoken and undisciplined for a party spokesperson. Now Casado finds out that Álvarez de Toledo, the woman he called "the Messi of the PP", is a free verse that is challenging his authority while reading an interview in El País

https://elpais.com/espana/2020-08-15/urge-un-gobierno-de-concentracion-moral-y-constitucional-en-espana.html

Quote
No soporta la etiqueta de verso suelto pero reafirma que necesita la libertad de pensar y opinar dentro de su partido para hacer política, su pasión. Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo (Madrid, 1974) es la escrutada portavoz del PP en el Congreso, desde hace un año, pero quiere ser el ariete de la “batalla cultural” en la derecha contra la izquierda dominante.  
 

"She can't stand the 'free verse' label but affirms she needs freedom to think and give her opinion to make politics, her passion. Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo has been the spokeswoman of the PP in Congress for a year, but she wants to be the battering ram of the right in the 'cultural battle' against the left"

I mean, that's entirely Casado's fault because Álvarez de Toledo has never deceived anyone about her intentions. When you pick someone like her, you must be ready to deal with the consequences. Cuca Gamarra, the new party spokeswoman in Congress, is more disciplined and moderate in tone. The former Mayor of Logroño backed Soraya Sáez de Santamaría in the leadership contest, but she has been loyal to Casado since his election. Ana Pastor replaces Gamarra in her party roles, which is remarkable because the Congress' Deputy Speaker and former Health minister is a staunch Rajoy loyalist. The current Mayor of Madrid, José Luis Martínez Almeida, was not the Casado's personal choice. He ran in the last local elections because he was the PP's spokesman in the Madrid City Hall by the time, after the retirement of Esperanza Aguirre. He appeals to me as a good public relations, but I suspect he's a staunch conservative like his predecessor Alberto Ruiz Gallardón, who was once the PP member preferred by the left due to his moderate tone.

In sum, these new appointments are not the profiles promoted by Casado when he reached party leadership advocating an "ideological rearmament". After the disastrous election in April 2019, Casado was forced to a somewhat 'moderate turn' by his 'barons'. But he turned again to a harsher tone and a frontal opposition to the government, promoting the hardliner aznarista Carlos Iturgaiz at the head of a failed España Suma experiment in the Basque Country. Possibly Casado has been pressed by his 'barons'' again after the success of Feijóo in Galicia and the catastrophe of his appointee Iturgaiz in Euskadi. My impression is that the PP will continue being erratic and directionless as long as Casado remains, but in politics you never know


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Former President tack50 on August 18, 2020, 08:35:34 AM
Worth noting that Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo being fired and replaced with Cuca Gamarra also reinforces the turn towards moderation and the center that PP has done since the pandemic started.

Basically it seems PP will be adopting a much less belligerant and much more concilliatory tone. Whether it works or not is a question nobody knows the answer to of course.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 18, 2020, 09:06:46 AM
Worth noting that Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo being fired and replaced with Cuca Gamarra also reinforces the turn towards moderation and the center that PP has done since the pandemic started.

Do you really think the PP turned to "moderation" when the pandemic started? Seriously? Perhaps the harsh attacks during the worst stages, with 800 or 900 dead every day, were product of my imagination. I'll welcome any sign of "moderation" and "common sense", in any case. "United before adversity"


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Former President tack50 on August 18, 2020, 09:21:34 AM
Worth noting that Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo being fired and replaced with Cuca Gamarra also reinforces the turn towards moderation and the center that PP has done since the pandemic started.

Do you really think the PP turned to "moderation" when the pandrmic started? Seriously? Perhaps the harsh attacks during the worst stages, with 800 or 900 dead every day, were product of my imagination. I'll welcome any sign of "moderation" and "common sense", in any case. "United before adversity"
I said during, not at the start. There were several agreements signed by all parties minus Vox not too long ago after all


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: BigSerg on August 18, 2020, 10:38:06 AM
Worth noting that Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo being fired and replaced with Cuca Gamarra also reinforces the turn towards moderation and the center that PP has done since the pandemic started.

Do you really think the PP turned to "moderation" when the pandemic started? Seriously? Perhaps the harsh attacks during the worst stages, with 800 or 900 dead every day, were product of my imagination. I'll welcome any sign of "moderation" and "common sense", in any case. "United before adversity"

So it's "radical" to question the government?

It seems that "moderation" means saying nothing and agreeing with everything the government says... During the Ebola crisis there was no moderation.










Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 18, 2020, 11:18:40 AM
Worth noting that Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo being fired and replaced with Cuca Gamarra also reinforces the turn towards moderation and the center that PP has done since the pandemic started.

Do you really think the PP turned to "moderation" when the pandemic started? Seriously? Perhaps the harsh attacks during the worst stages, with 800 or 900 dead every day, were product of my imagination. I'll welcome any sign of "moderation" and "common sense", in any case. "United before adversity"

So it's "radical" to question the government?

It seems that "moderation" means saying nothing and agreeing with everything the government says.

No, you are wrong. Uniting before adversity is a matter of patriotism, at least during the worst moments. You have the example of Portugal to see how a responsible opposition leader must behave in these situations. Rui Rio has been praised in some Spanish media for good reasons:

https://www.lavanguardia.com/internacional/20200516/481163162534/rui-rio-portugal-oposocion-gobierno-gestion-crisis.html

Quote
La disrupción provocada por la pandemia resulta tan intensa que la política española ha descubierto que Portugal existe, de manera que pierde un poco de vigencia la máxima de Pi i Margall de que en España se sabe mejor quién gobierna en Rusia que quién lo hace al otro lado de la frontera lusa.

Con el primer ministro António Costa casi convertido en un héroe popular por su defensa de España frente a las críticas de Holanda y con el Partido Popular usando las mucho mejores cifras oficiales de Portugal como arma arrojadiza, el Gobierno de Pedro Sánchez encontró en el jefe de la oposición, el conservador Rui Rio, el modelo que contraponer a la actitud de Pablo Casado, con su apuesta por ser un “soldado” en la colaboración con el Ejecutivo socialista de Lisboa (...)

Que el país sepa que el PSD apoya al Gobierno en este combate. Estamos en una emergencia nacional. Tenemos una amenaza que combatir. Lo que se exige es unidad, solidaridad y responsabilidad, en el nombre del interés nacional”.  
 

Rui Rio stated he's is not backping the socialists, he's backing the government of Portugal in a situation of emergency.

Meanwhile in the government of Spain was dealing with an unprecedented situation with more or less success, surely trying to do its best while suffering a campaign of harassment and destabilization consisting in vicious attacks and hyperbole. There is a big difference between criticizing the possible errors of the government (for sure they existed, mixed with some successes) and the baseless accusations of criminal behaviour. A responsible opposition leader never claims the government is killing its citizens without clear evidence, because making such baseless accusations  is an execrable sin named slander. A loyal and responsible opposition leader oversees the government's management and bases criticism on verifiable data.

On the other hand, I'd be curious to know the reaction of rightwingers if the opposition in Madrid was using the same tactics against Ayuso, because there's mounting evidence suggesting her management has been disastrous on many fronts


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: BigSerg on August 18, 2020, 11:20:51 AM
Worth noting that Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo being fired and replaced with Cuca Gamarra also reinforces the turn towards moderation and the center that PP has done since the pandemic started.

Do you really think the PP turned to "moderation" when the pandemic started? Seriously? Perhaps the harsh attacks during the worst stages, with 800 or 900 dead every day, were product of my imagination. I'll welcome any sign of "moderation" and "common sense", in any case. "United before adversity"

So it's "radical" to question the government?

It seems that "moderation" means saying nothing and agreeing with everything the government says.

No, you are wrong. Uniting before adversity is a matter of patriotism, at least during the worst moments. You have the example of Portugal to see how a responsible opposition leader must behave in these situations. Rui Rio hs been praised in some Spanish media for good reasons:

https://www.lavanguardia.com/internacional/20200516/481163162534/rui-rio-portugal-oposocion-gobierno-gestion-crisis.html

Quote
La disrupción provocada por la pandemia resulta tan intensa que la política española ha descubierto que Portugal existe, de manera que pierde un poco de vigencia la máxima de Pi i Margall de que en España se sabe mejor quién gobierna en Rusia que quién lo hace al otro lado de la frontera lusa.

Con el primer ministro António Costa casi convertido en un héroe popular por su defensa de España frente a las críticas de Holanda y con el Partido Popular usando las mucho mejores cifras oficiales de Portugal como arma arrojadiza, el Gobierno de Pedro Sánchez encontró en el jefe de la oposición, el conservador Rui Rio, el modelo que contraponer a la actitud de Pablo Casado, con su apuesta por ser un “soldado” en la colaboración con el Ejecutivo socialista de Lisboa (...)

Que el país sepa que el PSD apoya al Gobierno en este combate. Estamos en una emergencia nacional. Tenemos una amenaza que combatir. Lo que se exige es unidad, solidaridad y responsabilidad, en el nombre del interés nacional”.  
 

Rui Rio steted he's is not bacing the socialists, he's backing the government of Portugal in a situation of emergency.

Meanwhile in the government of Spain was dealing with an unprecedented situation with more or less success, surely trying to do its best while suffering a campaign of harassment and destabilization consisting in vicious attacks and hyperbole. There is a big difference between criticizing the possible errors of the government (for sure they existed, mixed with some successes) and the baseless accusations of criminal behaviour. A responsible opposition leader never claims the government is killing its citizens without clear evidence, because making such baseless accusations  is an execrable sin named slander. A responisble and efficient opposition leader oversees the government's management and bases criticism on verifiable data.

On the other hand, I'd be curious to know the reaction of rightwingers if the opposition in Madrid was using the same tactics against Ayuso, because there's mounting evidence suggesting her management has been disastrous on many fronts









🤡


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 18, 2020, 11:31:02 AM
Are you trying to compare the situation created by the Ebola virus with the ongoing crisis? Good luck with that. Also, Pedro Sánchez said "the government is responsible". He did not accuse the Rajoy administration of killing Spanish citizens. This is a very serious accusation that can't be done lightly. If Casado and Abascal were honest persons moved by the national interest. not by ideological hatred or the desire to topple the government, they should apologize and resign their seats immediately

Please, don't spam the thread posting loads of tweets. I have nothing against freedom of speech, but I prefer if you limit your re-tweets to the strictly necessary


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: BigSerg on August 18, 2020, 11:35:03 AM
Are you trying to compare the situation created by the Evola virus with the ongoing crisis? Good luck with that. Also, Pedro Sánchez said "the government is responsible". He did not accused the Rajoy administration of killing Spanish citizens. This is a very serious accusation that can't be done lightly. If Casado and Abascal were decent persons moved by the national interest. not by ideological hatred or the desire to topple the government, they should apologize and resign their seats immediately

In short,

Ebola was Rajoy's fault.
(0 deaths)

The coronavirus is the fault of... let's not politice such a serious issue!
(40000 deaths)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: BigSerg on August 18, 2020, 11:40:12 AM
Are you trying to compare the situation created by the Evola virus with the ongoing crisis? Good luck with that. Also, Pedro Sánchez said "the government is responsible". He did not accused the Rajoy administration of killing Spanish citizens. This is a very serious accusation that can't be done lightly. If Casado and Abascal were honest persons moved by the national interest. not by ideological hatred or the desire to topple the government, they should apologize and resign their seats immediately

Please, don't spam the thread posting loads of tweets. I have nothing against freedom of speech, but I prefer if you limit your re-tweets to the strictly necessary
They are necessary since they highlight your hypocrisy.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 18, 2020, 11:50:32 AM

If you want to highlight my hypocrisy, please resort to arguments. I don't pay attention to many tweets because they mean nothing to me. It's better that you elaborate your thoughts, in order to support your views. Right now you are spamming and I don't want to report your excessive re-tweets. Use your own words, links or whatever


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Former President tack50 on August 18, 2020, 01:31:29 PM
As always, worth noting Ebola is an extremely hard to transmit virus, while Covid is extremely contagious. You can only get infected with Ebola through direct contact with the bodily fluids of an infected person. Ebola is also a much deadlier disease as well. Iirc the death rate for Ebola was around 50%, compared to around 2% for covid.

Had Rajoy not brought to Spain that nurse who got infected (I think), there would have been 0 cases whatsoever (though she probably would have died, I don't think Sierra Leone's or Liberia's healthcare systems are all that great)

On hindsight, Rajoy took a gamble that paid off, but Spain could have also ended with a small outbreak and an amount of cases in the low double digits, with around 7-8 deaths or so.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 19, 2020, 04:00:25 AM
The government welcomes the replacement of Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo, hoping that the PP is more open to reach deals. However, government sources quoted by El País believe that the appointment of a new spokesperson reflects internal power struggles within the PP and not a strategic turn. Socialists consider the controversial Álvarez de Toledo is a gift for them while in campaign, but there are no elections in the horizon. Now the priority is to reach deals with the PP, in order to renew constitutional bodies like the General Council of the Judiciary (CGPJ in Spanish, its members should have been replaced nearly two years ago), the Board of the RTVE (thepublic broadcaster) and the Ombudsman. According to Álvarez de Toledo, Casado told to her that she could be an obstacle to solve these issues. More importantly, it's necessary discuss the allocation of the European Reconstruction Fund, which is key for economic recovery (and very important for the regions governed by PP and Cs). Government sources deem impossible that the PP is open to facilitate the first reading of the budget, but hope that a less hostile attitude allows more room for manoeuvre to negotiate with Cs


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: BigSerg on August 19, 2020, 10:38:24 AM
Coronavirus




Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: BigSerg on August 20, 2020, 07:11:02 AM
"Spain has re-emerged as the epicenter of the coronavirus pandemic in Europe and its government appears largely in denial over it.

Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez is on vacation with his family and hasn’t come out to address the public after Spain, over the course of this week, recorded the highest number of daily infections per million people in Europe. Each day brings more bad news"

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-08-19/spain-s-coronavirus-infections-rise-by-the-most-in-four-months?__twitter_impression=true


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 20, 2020, 08:42:36 AM
Likely the choice made by former king Juan Carlos to take temporary residence in the Emirates is not the best, in order to help his son and current king Felipe. The stay of Juan Carlos in the UAE reminds us his past activities as lobbyist for the Arab despots

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/13/opinion/king-juan-carlos-exile.html

Quote
(...)An outdated culture of allegiance, the opacity surrounding the Spanish monarchy and a Constitution that exempts our kings from any criminal responsibility sent the monarch the message that he was above the law. His immunity from prosecution, designed to give stability to the institution of the crown, was used to amass a fortune primarily through millions of dollars in presumed kickbacks from Arab dictators. He acquired such wealth that in 2012, in the middle of the Great Recession that left 25 percent of Spaniards unemployed, he transferred 65 million euros to his lover Corinna Larsen, a German businesswoman (...)  

Making things worse, Corina Larsen emerges again with very embarrassing statements in an extensive BBC interview

https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-53749630

Quote
"He called me up and said the king had come see him and told him he was very much in love with me, and intended to marry me," she says. "He also told my father he couldn't do it straight away, it might take some time. He wanted my father to know he was very serious about me."

(...)

"Obviously, it's a very emotional moment when something like that happens," she says. "And I was very much in love with him, but I foresaw - I'm a political strategist - that this would be very difficult. And I thought it might destabilise the monarchy.

(...)

Later in 2012, she claims she was visited in London by the head of Spanish intelligence, Félix Sanz Roldán.

"He said he was sent by the king," she says. "The primary warning was not to talk to the media.

"He said if I didn't follow these instructions, he would not guarantee my physical safety or the physical safety of my children."

(...)

he is one of the individuals being investigated by the Swiss prosecutor. And that is because in 2012, after the Botswana debacle, the then-King Juan Carlos transferred what was left of that $100 million from Saudi Arabia - around €65m - to her.

"I was very surprised because it's obviously an enormously generous gift," she says. "I will say, though, that conversations about him managing his will during his lifetime had taken place in 2011. He started to talk about his death and what he wanted to leave in his will (...)

"I don't know if this money is illegal," she says. But if the ongoing investigations establish an illegal origin for this money, "they should return it".

And zu Sayn-Wittgenstein's response?

"I will leave this up to the Swiss prosecutor," she says. "Putting me under pressure on that is not the right way to go forward.

"Because I think in that case, everybody needs to return everything. What I find extraordinary is they're rolling 40 years of the modus operandi of a family enterprise into a focus on one person. And that's me… Because there will be hundreds of other accounts in other jurisdictions."
  

In other news, the Spanish government ups security over concerns for safety of ministers. Podemos politicians Pablo Iglesias and Irene Montero have been subjected to four months of harassment outside their home in Madrid, and this week were forced to cut short their vacation

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-08-20/spanish-government-ups-security-measures-over-concerns-for-safety-of-ministers.html

Quote
he government is taking the ongoing harassment that is being suffered by Unidas Podemos politicians Pablo Iglesias and Irene Montero very seriously, considering it not to be an isolated incident but rather the result of a political climate that is being fanned by the far right. The executive is opting to increase the security measures outside the Madrid home of the deputy prime minister and his partner, who is the equality minister in the coalition government, and is preparing for a potential worsening of the situation this coming fall.

Coronavirus outbreaks: Health minister reported 131 dead last week

https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2020-08-20/coronavirus-deaths-reported-by-spains-health-ministry-beginning-to-rise.html

Quote
The rise in coronavirus infections that Spain has been seeing in recent weeks has prompted a spike in the number of Covid-19-related deaths due to the serious pneumonia that the pathogen causes. According to the data released on Wednesday by the Health Ministry, 131 people with the coronavirus have died in the last seven days, a figure that is twice that released by the ministry on Tuesday, and 11 times greater than the 12 deaths that were reported in the third week of July, just a month ago.

The deaths being caused by the virus are, however, even greater in number, but the delays in the notification of the data that the regions send to the ministry and that are subsequently made public mean that changes in trend are trickling through slowly (...)

Pere Godoy, the president of the Spanish Epidemiological Society (SEE), believes that this increase in mortality is “the expected result in the rise of the circulation of the virus registered in recent weeks, with a number of outbreaks and community transmission present in a number of areas.” Despite this, “these sudden increases in mortality can also be due to delays in notification,” the expert explains.

“But there is no doubt that if the incidence increases, mortality will end up rising too,” Godoy adds, saying that “it is to be expected that this rise is not as steep as that registered in the spring, given that many of the people being diagnosed now are young, healthy and even asymptomatic.”

Madrid is still at the top of the list of new positives, with 2,207 in total and 1,535 in the last 24 hours





Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 20, 2020, 09:14:08 AM
Catalan elections: Cs replaces Lorena Roldán by Carlos Carrizosa as the candidate for the upcoming elections in Catalonia (without specific date as yet)

Carrizosa is currently the Cs spokesman in the Parliament of Catalonia, while Lorena Roldán is the Cs spokeswoman in the Spanish Senate. The reason alleged by Cs is the need for a candidate holding public offices only in Catalonia, as well someone "less identified with the Cs acronym" (astoundingly, Carrizosa is regarded less partisan than Roldán), in order to form a 'constitutionalist' alliance with PP and the PSC. Such alliance is very unlikely, as it's totally rejected by the Catalan socialists and the PP is not very interested (except maybe for joint lists in Girona and Lleida, where the PP has very few chances of winning seats in its own).

 Lorena Roldán was appointed candidate in July 2019, when Inés Arrimadas decided to jump into national politics to second former Cs leader Albert Rivera. I don't now the actual reaasons for this replacement atm


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Skye on August 20, 2020, 10:09:49 AM
Catalan elections: Cs replaces Lorena Roldán by Carlos Carrizosa as the candidate for the upcoming elections in Catalonia (without specific date as yet)

Carrizosa is currently the Cs spokesman in the Parliament of Catalonia, while Lorena Roldán is the Cs spokeswoman in the Spanish Senate. The reason alleged by Cs is the need for a candidate holding public offices only in Catalonia, as well someone "less identified with the Cs acronym" (astoundingly, Carrizosa is regarded less partisan than Roldán), in order to form a 'constitutionalist' alliance with PP and the PSC. Such alliance is very unlikely, as it's totally rejected by the Catalan socialists and the PP is not very interested (except maybe for joint lists in Girona and Lleida, where the PP has very few chances of winning seats in its own).

 Lorena Roldán was appointed candidate in July 2019, when Inés Arrimadas decided to jump into national politics to second former Cs leader Albert Rivera. I don't now the actual reaasons for this replacement atm

I don't know what they are thinking with that alliance. Why should the PSC agree to it? It's not gonna happen.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Former President tack50 on August 20, 2020, 12:31:26 PM
Catalan elections: Cs replaces Lorena Roldán by Carlos Carrizosa as the candidate for the upcoming elections in Catalonia (without specific date as yet)

Carrizosa is currently the Cs spokesman in the Parliament of Catalonia, while Lorena Roldán is the Cs spokeswoman in the Spanish Senate. The reason alleged by Cs is the need for a candidate holding public offices only in Catalonia, as well someone "less identified with the Cs acronym" (astoundingly, Carrizosa is regarded less partisan than Roldán), in order to form a 'constitutionalist' alliance with PP and the PSC. Such alliance is very unlikely, as it's totally rejected by the Catalan socialists and the PP is not very interested (except maybe for joint lists in Girona and Lleida, where the PP has very few chances of winning seats in its own).

 Lorena Roldán was appointed candidate in July 2019, when Inés Arrimadas decided to jump into national politics to second former Cs leader Albert Rivera. I don't now the actual reaasons for this replacement atm

I don't know what they are thinking with that alliance. Why should the PSC agree to it? It's not gonna happen.

Yeah an alliance has a 0% chance of happening. I do think a limited PP+Cs (and only PP+Cs) alliance might work if limited to Girona and Lleida, maybe that means they keep 1 seat in each of the 2.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 20, 2020, 12:31:52 PM

The "constitutionalist front" with Cs, PSC and PP makes no sense in Catalonia. Leaving aside other ideological differences, their attitude towards Catalan nationalism and/or identity (the expression catalanisme may refer to both) has never been the same. PP and Cs are parties that oppose Catalan nationalism, especially the party once led by Albert Rivera (the PP attempted a soft catalanista approach for a short period, when Josep Piqué was the regional leader). The PSC has always been federalist and catalanista since the late 1970s , when the PSOE branch merged with some other small socialist parties operating in Catalonia by that time. The PSC always had a catalanista or soft nationalist wing. Actually Cs was founded in Catalonia by a group of intellectuals that in many cases were close to the socialists, but grew disappointed by the excessive (in their view) nationalist leanings of the PSC under Pasqual Maragall

The sovereigntist process, or the conflict on Catalan independence, distressed the PSC and many of the most catalanista members fled to ERC and even JxCAT. Currently the PSC advocates a federal state and seeks to build bridges with moderate nationalists contrary to secession. The PSC has integrated in party lists members of Units per Avançar (the heir of Unió), despite that group is ideologically christian-democrat (centre-right)

On pure electoral calculus, a constitutionalist front would be unprofitable. I can imagine leftwing PSC voters switching to CatComu-Podem, as it happened with ERC voters that switched to the CUP when the Oriol Junqueras party joined JxSI with CDC. The fiasco of the PP+Cs coalition in the Basque Country is another solid reason to oppose and the PP leader in Catalonia asked the national leadership to dismiss the idea (except maybe for Girona and Lleida)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: BigSerg on August 20, 2020, 03:48:56 PM
The Popular Party has on Thursday denounced a meeting on the beach between the Minister of Justice, Juan Carlos Campo, and the former Andalusian President Manuel Chaves, sentenced to nine years for the case of the ERE and pending appeal in the Supreme.



https://www.google.com/amp/amp.vozpopuli.com/espana/ministro-justicia-chaves-ere_0_1384362403.html

But King Juan Carlos....


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Niemeyerite on August 20, 2020, 04:18:57 PM
The Popular Party has on Thursday denounced a meeting on the beach between the Minister of Justice, Juan Carlos Campo, and the former Andalusian President Manuel Chaves, sentenced to nine years for the case of the ERE and pending appeal in the Supreme.



https://www.google.com/amp/amp.vozpopuli.com/espana/ministro-justicia-chaves-ere_0_1384362403.html

But King Juan Carlos....

Yeah, King Juan Carlos has been hiding (and stealing) hundreds of millions of € but of course a "beach chat" that may even be the result of a pure coincidence is much, much worse. Also, they weren't wearing masks!!1!1!1!1!!!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: BigSerg on August 20, 2020, 06:00:04 PM
The Popular Party has on Thursday denounced a meeting on the beach between the Minister of Justice, Juan Carlos Campo, and the former Andalusian President Manuel Chaves, sentenced to nine years for the case of the ERE and pending appeal in the Supreme.



https://www.google.com/amp/amp.vozpopuli.com/espana/ministro-justicia-chaves-ere_0_1384362403.html

But King Juan Carlos....

Yeah, King Juan Carlos has been hiding (and stealing) hundreds of millions of € but of course a "beach chat" that may even be the result of a pure coincidence is much, much worse. Also, they weren't wearing masks!!1!1!1!1!!!

The king is not under investigation, he has not fled.

On the other hand, there's a convicted felon in the photo.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 20, 2020, 06:40:21 PM
Yeah, King Juan Carlos has been hiding (and stealing) hundreds of millions of € but of course a "beach chat" that may even be the result of a pure coincidence is much, much worse. Also, they weren't wearing masks!!1!1!1!1!!!

They don't wear masks because they are followers of Miguel Bosé and his conspiracy theories.

More seriously, I ignore the circumstances. Maybe it was a casual encounter, aa you say. Would you refuse to say hello or to have a chat with an old acquaintance, in case you are minister and he is convicted on corruption? Is that chat so relevant? I don't have an answer  Not wearing mask seems to be a more serious issue in these times.

Apparently the affairs of Juan Carlos are not very important. I think Corinna Larsen talked extensively with a BBC journalist because she will have to appear in court pretty soon.

The Spanish monarchy is certainly not in good shape, but it will be definitely done the day it's perceived as a partisan institution. So if I was the king, I would be worried at the attempts of the Spanish right to appropiate that institution. Right now Sánchez is backing the king Felipe, either for the sake of stability or for personal conviction. It'd be in the interest of Felipe that our rightwing MPs did not use the "viva el rey" against the government. That's not good for him.

Welcome back, Julio



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 21, 2020, 11:20:46 AM
Catalan elections: Cs replaces Lorena Roldán by Carlos Carrizosa as the candidate for the upcoming elections in Catalonia (without specific date as yet)

Carrizosa is currently the Cs spokesman in the Parliament of Catalonia, while Lorena Roldán is the Cs spokeswoman in the Spanish Senate. The reason alleged by Cs is the need for a candidate holding public offices only in Catalonia, as well someone "less identified with the Cs acronym" (astoundingly, Carrizosa is regarded less partisan than Roldán), in order to form a 'constitutionalist' alliance with PP and the PSC. Such alliance is very unlikely, as it's totally rejected by the Catalan socialists and the PP is not very interested (except maybe for joint lists in Girona and Lleida, where the PP has very few chances of winning seats in its own).

 Lorena Roldán was appointed candidate in July 2019, when Inés Arrimadas decided to jump into national politics to second former Cs leader Albert Rivera. I don't now the actual reaasons for this replacement atm

Apparently the change of candidate is an attempt to prevent a debacle and is not the product of infighting. Lorena Roldán was elected candidate a year ago, proposed by Albert Rivera and ratified in a primary election with 86.6% of the vote. She is a member for Tarragona in he Parliament of Catalonia since 2015 and member of the Spanish Senate since May 2018 (designated by the Catalan parliament), where she was promoted to the position of spokeswoman. In sum, she was regarded a rising star and was chosen to replace the charismatic Ines Arrimadas because she had a similar profile on paper. However, Roldán has been unable to position herself in the turbulent and complicated political scene of Catalonia. She has been gradually replaced in the role of leader of the opposition by the veteran Carlos Carrizosa, who is one of the Cs founders as well a hardliner and a razor-tongued spokesman. Carrizosa attended a recent interview with the director of the public channel TV3 and was the Cs spokesperson who confronted premier Quim Torra in a recent parliamentary debate to reprove the king (a sort of propagandístic declaration without legal implications, because it's not constitutional) triggered by the recent scandals affecting the monarchy.  The decision was made by Inés Arrimadas and her little executive committee, with the knowledge of Roldan and Carrizosa. All the polls released until now point to a Cs decline that it's worrying, but it could be even worse if polls are failing to measure the magnitude of the fall (as it happened in the last general elections that led ti the demise of Albert Rivera)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Niemeyerite on August 21, 2020, 07:20:21 PM
Gracias Dani.

And I won't even answer to the guy saying that the King isn't being investigated so we shouldn't be concerned about the hundreds of millions he got but never declared... representing our country. It's sooo normal and nice to have your own Head of State literally hiding money from the Treasury.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) on August 22, 2020, 04:03:24 AM
Gracias Dani.

And I won't even answer to the guy saying that the King isn't being investigated so we shouldn't be concerned about the hundreds of millions he got but never declared... representing our country. It's sooo normal and nice to have your own Head of State literally hiding money from the Treasury.

While certainly not nice, it is unfortunately quite normal.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 22, 2020, 06:12:27 AM
It's sooo normal and nice to have your own Head of State literally hiding money from the Treasury.

Right now I'm reading in the news that Pablo Casado orderred to cease negotiations to renew the General Council of the Judiciary (CGPJ) because of the "ambiguous attitude" of Pedro Sánchez towards the emeritus king, as well because UP advocates a republican state and apparently being republican is an outrage. Keep in kind that Sánchez has stated the form of the state is not under discussion and is backing the current king, although he also stated the news on the Juan Carlos' affairs were "disturbing". Well, I think "disturbing" is the least that can be said. None of the parties right of the centre have said a word about the irregular activities of former king Juan Carlos. They remain very attached to the old culture of allegiance that allowed Juan Carlos' impunity (and the PSOE is not much better in this regard).

https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20200822/482928962009/pablo-casado-pp-cgpj-rey.html

 Said this, in my opinion the debate monarchy vs republic is not the most important question. There are many corrupt and authoritarian republics all around the world. The main issue to discuss should be the transparency and accountability of the institutions; stop overprotecting Felipe and demand the royal hosehold open doors and windows. On the other hand, I find some 'republicans' a bit hypocritical. Some Catalan separatists are taking advantage to say Spain is corrupt and unreformable (Oriol Junqueras, for instance), while forgetting the "father" of the Catalan nationalism Jordi Pujol and his family are corrupt too. I have republican leanings, but no sympathy for hypocrites


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: BigSerg on August 22, 2020, 07:57:13 AM
The Attorney's Office of the Court of Auditors sees evidence of crime in Podemos electoral accounts

The company Neurona, precisely, was mentioned by the lawyer of Podemos José Manuel Calvente, dismissed last December by the party of Pablo Iglesias, in his statement before the judge investigating his allegation of alleged irregularities in purple formation.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.rtve.es/noticias/20200821/fiscalia-tribunal-cuentas-indicios-delito/2040663.shtml



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 28, 2020, 04:27:25 PM
Political discussion in Spain has been focused on the reopening of schools, amidst a surge in coronvirus that points to a second wave. Central and regional governments agreed measures to reopen the schools closed since the first upsurge in March, including:

- Mandatory face masks for school staff and students aged six and over, measure extensive to school transport

- Physical distancing between students set at 1.5 meters

- Students and teachers will have their temperature taken before school day starts

-  Students will wash their hands "frequently and vigorously" at least 5 times a day

  Cleaning of school buildings will be stepped up, particularly bathrooms and areas frequently used

- Creation of "bubble groups" to limit the contact between classes

- Health and Education ministries call to avoid activities involving different groups of students

- The use of open-air spaces for activities will be prioritized

- Reduction of the physical presence on site of school staff to the "essential minimum", prioritizing remote work wherever possible

  Authorities recommend communication with students by phone, email, messages or posts, facilitating administrative tasks by remote means

- Any staff particularly vulnerable will have to "rigorously respect" protection measures

- Schools will be open for the whole, term, as will as canteens and services for students with special needs,  "provided that the epidemiological situation allows for it"

(...)

These measures are "the lowest common denominator" agreed between central and peripheral administrations and were signed by all regions except  the Basque Country. The Basque government is not opposed to them, but it's very protective of regional autonomy and devolved competences thus opting to introduce its own measures separately.  

In-person classes are deemed not only preferable to remote teaching, but necessary for the economically disadvantaged students with less access to the internet and technological devices. In other words, it's a matter concerning equality of opportunities. Even though there's little discussion about that, central and peripheral governments of different political colours are facing heavy criticism. For instance, there is a devastating opinion article by David Jiménez in the NYT, accusing all administrations of neglect and improvisation in a depth charge against the political class. The opinion article is only available in the Spanish edition atm, but I guess there will be an English translation too (I linked an insightful article on Juan Carlos by the same author before)

https://www.nytimes.com/es/2020/08/27/espanol/opinion/vuelta-cole-espana.html


During the state of alarm, the central government took control, centralizing decisions and coordinating the efforts of the regional administrations. The Health minister Salvador Illa became the highest authority. But given the high degree of decentralization of the healthcare system, the minister acted like an overall coordinator in permanent contact with his regional counterparts. When the state of alarm came to an end, the central government devolved deescalation measures to the regional administrations with mixed results. Recently Pedro Sánchez offered support to the regions that require to implement the state of alarm, in case of aggravation. However, regional premiers are very reluctant to accept that offer, opting for less strict measures. The state of alarm implies the government takes full control and a strong erosion

The news concerning the new upsurge are somewhat alarming

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-08-28/the-reopening-of-schools-in-spain-here-are-the-measures-agreed-by-the-government-and-the-regions.html

Quote
The Spanish Health Ministry reported on Thursday that 9,658 new coronavirus cases had been detected by the regions. This is the largest spike in infections that Spain has seen since it entered a second wave of the virus, and confirms the upward trend of Covid-19 transmission, which has been rising since the beginning of August.

The news came on the same day that Spain’s 17 regions and the Health and Education ministries met to establish protocols for how to safely reopen schools in September. According to Fernando Simón, the director of the Health Ministry’s Coordination Center for Health Alerts, students will be able to return to class even if there is “community transmission” of the virus in Spain.

After sternly warning last week that citizens should “have no doubts” that “things are not going well,” Simón offered a more temperate message at Thursday’s press conference. He highlighted that although some regions are seeing a noticeable rise in cases (for instance those along the Mediterranean coast) or are continuing to report very high infection numbers (mainly in Madrid), in other regions, such as Aragón, Catalonia, Basque Country and Navarre, the “trend is stabilizing or even falling.” (...)
  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 28, 2020, 11:09:26 PM
The negotiations on the 2021 budget are creating tension between PSOE and Podemos, even though government sources quoted by El País rule out the coalition is going to break. The reason is the apparently definitive veto of Podemos to negotiate the Cs support. Despite Pedro Sánchez has made explicit calls for unity, in order to pass some sort of 'patriotic' budget to overcome the crisis, PP leader Pablo Casado has rejected the proposal. Cs is open to engage in negotiations, but the orange party is asking Sánchez that the budget is as far from the Podemos ideas as possible. It's the classical hostility between the two parties, that continues after the departure of Albert Rivera. Cs representatives often make disdainful remarks about the "populists", while Podemos spokespersons openly state they prefer a negotiation with ERC. The problem is that the ERC support is very hard to achieve before elections take place in Catalonia. There is not a date fixed for the elections and everything depends on political calculations (on the part pf premier Quim Torra and the 'exiled' Carles Puigdemont, both from JxCAT) and the evolution of the pandemic this autumn. In the midst of this uncertain scenario of pre-electoral tension, JxCAT and ERC are engaging in a war of words (premier Torra called for a "smart confrontation" with the Spanish state, while some ERC spokesperson replied they prefer a "smart negotiation"). In this context the ERC support might be impossible, in case the Catalan party is demanding too much. On the other hand, the round table on the Catalan conflict agreed between the pSOE and ERC is paralyzed due to the pre-electoral climate. Given these complex circumstances, the PSOE is approaching Cs to the displeasure of ERC and Podemos. The purples are asking Sánchez to lo take care of the parties that voted his investiture. But socialists fear the Podemos stance contrary to deals with Cs gives ERC veto power on the budget negotiations


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on August 31, 2020, 07:29:21 PM
Pedro Sánchez made a call for unity and a "new political climate" before an audience of big corporation leaders

https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2020-08-31/spains-business-elite-turns-out-to-hear-pms-call-for-a-new-political-climate.html

Quote
panish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez held an unusual public event on Monday: instead of organizing a political rally attended by grassroots supporters, he marked the end of parliament’s summer recess with a speech given in the presence of the country’s top business leaders. His message was one of unity amid the ongoing coronavirus crisis, and it was aimed squarely at the main opposition Popular Party (PP).

The mere presence of the business leaders was, in itself, a political statement. Major figures such as Ana Patricia Botín from the Santander banking group, José María Álvarez Pallete from telecommunications giant Telefónica, Carlos Torres from lender BBVA, Florentino Pérez from construction group ACS, and Pablo Isla from fashion giant Inditex – which owns the popular brand Zara – were all in attendance to hear Sánchez call for unity and a “new political climate.”

Despite the internal tensions in the governing coalition over the budget negotiations and the aperture to Cs, Sánchez guaranteed the business leaders stability for the next 40 months.

Quote
“The government is choosing unity, not division, nor conflict, nor confrontation,” the prime minister said during his speech. “Spain must come to an understanding with Spain, just like Europe came to an understanding with Europe in July,” he said, in reference to the agreement hammered out by European Union countries over the bloc’s financial response to the coronavirus crisis. “This is the biggest challenge in a century,” he continued. “We can’t overcome it with half of Spain turning its back on the other half, or, what’s even worse, pitted against the other half. There is no such thing as a right-wing virus or a left-wing virus.”

I'm not a big fan of his rhetoric style, but for sure we need unity before adversity. However, this generation of Spanish politicians appears to be "the least prepared and most intolerant" of the present democratic period (the words between quotation marks belong to David Jiménez)

The new slogan aired by Sánchez is España Puede ("Spain Can"). I'm full of hope and goodwill.

Catalan affairs: Carles Puigdemont and a bunch of public officials (members of regional government, deputies, senators, mayors...) have broken officially their ties with the PDeCAT. The party launched by former premier Artur Mas* to replace the old CDC will presumably suffer a member drain. The Puuigdemont supporters and the PDeCAT leadership are now engaged in a judicial battle over the ownership of the JxCAT trademark. The split is inevitable and they will run separately in the upcoming elections: Puigdemont and his people in the new big tent cross-ideological project under the JxCAT banner (unless judges rule otherwise) on the one hand, and the PDeCAT in its own or allied to other splinters of the old Convergència (for instance, the new Catalan Nationalist Party led by Marta Pascal) on the other hand.

*Artur Mas stays in the PDeCAT atm.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: BigSerg on September 01, 2020, 03:26:42 PM




Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on September 01, 2020, 04:37:05 PM
According to Pedro Sánchez, the minor crisis between the coalition partners over the budget plan is over. Sánchez said that he had a meeting with Pablo Iglesias. On Friday past week UP threatened to vote against any budget agreement between PSOE and Cs

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-09-01/spains-prime-minister-plays-down-crisis-with-coalition-partner-over-upcoming-budget.html

Quote
Instead, Iglesias wants Sánchez to reach a deal with his own partners first; he is also demanding for Unidas Podemos representatives to be present at any future talks with Ciudadanos. On Tuesday, Sánchez said that “there has been no Unidas Podemos veto against Ciudadanos.”

“We are going to make a budget that incorporates the governing agreement with Unidas Podemos,” said the prime minister. “The draft budget will be a government agreement, but later we will have to talk to other parties. We will not veto anyone.”  

PSOE and UP are about to restart bilateral talks, with the repeal of the PP's Labour Reform as the main difference between coalition partners. UP wants a total repeal, while the PSOE prefers a partial repeal concerning the most harmful elements of the current labour legislation. Tax increases to the big fortunes and corporations have been postponed, although Sánchez said weeks ago it's needed an incease in revenue and that's only possible through a tax reform.

On the other hand, the appeals to Pablo Casado and the PP for support will be unheard. Pablo Casado will attend a meeting with Pedro Sánchez, but he has made clear his unwillingness to reach deals with the government. Now the pretext is UP, claiming that its presence in the government is an outrage because the Igesias' folks are "communists", "republicans" and "support the independence of Catalonia" (lol). Apparently Casado is not even willing to negotiate the much needed renewal of the General Council of the Judiciary, unless UP is expelled from the government (the actual reason is related to the PP's share of power, that should be diminished based on election results). Both PP and Cs perceive that UP is the weak link of the coalition government and press there. The Arrimadas party is apparently seeking to create inner dissension in the coalition government and arrange a more 'orthodox' budget with the socialists. Seemingly Pablo Casado is still in a dreamlike state, hoping that the failure of the budget negotiations leads to a snap election. Casado rejected the statements made by his former spokeswoman Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo, who advocated a Grand Coalition with the PSOE to defend the Spanish Constitution against evil communists and separatists, However, I suspect Casado would be glad to be the PM with the PSOE as junior partner. The problem is that he needs to win the next general elections. I think there's little concern for the general interest





Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on September 03, 2020, 06:26:45 PM
As said in the previous post, PP leader Pablo Casado rejects deals on budget and renewal of institutions

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-09-03/pp-chief-rules-out-deals-with-government-on-budget-renewal-of-institutions.html

Quote
Not even the coronavirus pandemic has changed the political dynamics between the two main parties in Spain. The leader of the main opposition Popular Party (PP), Pablo Casado, spent two hours in talks on Wednesday with Socialist Party (PSOE) Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez, only to announce afterwards that his group would not lend the support needed in order to make new appointments in key institutions such as the Constitutional Court and the CGPJ legal watchdog.

Casado said that the PP would not provide the votes needed for such changes while the PSOE continued to govern in a coalition with junior partner Unidas Podemos, the leftist bloc headed by Pablo Iglesias and made up of his Podemos party and the United Left (IU).

In response, the Sánchez government has accused Casado of refusing to recognize the legitimacy of the coalition government. With his actions, Casado is also rejecting the “political truce” that the leader of the center-right Ciudadanos party, Inés Arrimadas, called for on Wednesday after having met with Sánchez. “We will all be judged for our actions during the pandemic,” Arrimadas said after her talks with the prime minister, at which the possibility of her party supporting the upcoming budget plan was a key issue.  

Casado is arguing that he is putting the brakes on the appointments in order to defend the constitutional structure of Spain. This argument is not only fallacious, it reveals contempt for the constitution and a deliberate strategy. Pablo Casado rejects to renew the General Council of the Judiciary or the Constitutional Court in order to preserve their conservative majorities, aiming to use the courts as a political battering ram against the government.

Pedro Sánchez has been meeting with other parliamentary leaders including Inés Arrimadas (Cs), Gabriel Rufián (ERC) and Aitor Esteban (PNV). Arrimadas is open to negotiate, despite she doesn't like the incumbent government

Quote
Casado’s attitude is in contrast to that of Ciudadanos leader Inés Arrimadas, who yesterday confirmed her “firm and real” commitment to negotiate a “moderate, sensible” budget, one that incorporates the financial assistance from the European Union to deal with the coronavirus pandemic and accompanying economic crisis, “and that do not contain ideologies contrary to what this country needs.” She accepted that Unidas Podemos would form part of these talks. “We may make mistakes,” she said of the need for the aforementioned “political truce,” but “we will be able to sleep with a clear conscience,” she concluded.

Sánchez and Rufián agreed to reactivate the bilateral round table between the central government and the Generalitat, arranging a meeting in mid September. This is a prerequisite to negotiate demanded by ERC and accepted by Sánchez. But there is a problem with that meeting, as the imminent rule of the Supreme Court on September 17 could disqualify premier Quim Torra from office. The Catalan premier is accused of disobedience because of the yellow ribbons in support of the jailed politicians that were hanging from the Generalitat balconies during the 2019 election campaign, ignoring the requests of the electoral commission (Junta Electoral). On the other hand, Torra has been never an enthusiast of the round tables with the Sánchez government, arguing that there's little to talk about when the right to self-determination is not recognized. Rufián stressed that ERC is incompatible with Cs, adding that party that "governs with Ayuso in Madrid and Vox in Andalusia" dhould not be compatible with the left. Other parties urge Sánchez to seek the support of those that voted or allowed his investiture, while socialists say they want to seek the broadest support possible.

Related to the pre-electoral tension and the conflict between the Puigdemont supporters (JxCAT) and the reminder of the PDeCAT (heir of CDC), premier Quim Torra made a little cabinet reshuffle sacking three members of the government from the JxCAT side. The most prominent members are Interior minister Miquel Buch (criticized by Torra during the October 2019 riots in Barcelona, only because the regional police tried to do its work and the role of Buch was cleaning the dirty dishes) and the last remaining PDeCAT member, the Enterprises minister Angels Chacón (mentioned as a possible top candidate for the upcoming elections). PDeCAT spokespersons claim this is a "political purge". In any case, this move made by Torra puts back the possibility of calling elections (speculations say the date will be postponed from autumn 2020 to early 2021, because a later date suits better Puigdemont's interests). The imminent rule of the Supreme Court and the likely disqualification of Torra add loads of uncertainty.

In contrast, the political climate in other places is calmer. Alberto Núñez Feijóo (PP) and Íñigo Urkullu (PNV) have been reelected in Galicia and Basque Country by their respective legislative assemblies. Feijóo was elected on a renewed majority, while Urkullu was elected on a renewed PNV-PSE coalition deal. Unlike in 2016, the PSE leader Idoia Mendia is going enter the Basque government this time (maybe as deputy premier)



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on September 08, 2020, 05:21:04 PM
The prosecutor's office rejects to initiate an overall inquiry on the Podemos financing, but accepts to investigate the contract between the party and Neurona consulting. The complaint filed by the former Podemos lawyer José Manuel Calvente is deemed baseless and motivated by ill will*. The office also criticized thejudge who ordered proceedings preliminary to a trial based on that complaint. However the prosecutor agrees to investigate the contract with Neurona consulting prior to the 2019 campaign, based on a previous report by the Court of Auditors pointing to possible contractual irregularities. A relatively minor issue unrelated to big corruption schemes, in any case. Opening a legal case based solely on rumours and speculations is contrary to democratic principles, on the other hand.

*Calvente was sacked in early 2019 on alleged sexual harassment to a colleague, which was later dismissed by a judge. He was in the Podemos' staff since the very beginning in 2014.

Another judge has lifted the seal on an inquiry affecting the PP

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-09-08/spanish-spying-probe-points-at-top-popular-party-ex-officials.html

Quote
A court investigation codenamed Operation Kitchen has become a new time bomb for Spain’s conservative Popular Party (PP).

A judge at Spain’s High Court, the Audiencia Nacional, on Monday lifted the seal on an inquiry into an alleged spying operation designed within the Interior Ministry under the PP government of Mariano Rajoy (2011-2018), and aimed against the party’s own former treasurer Luis Bárcenas.

Bárcenas was a key figure in a long-running scandal involving allegations of illegal corporate donations and under-the-table cash bonuses for top party officials. In early 2013, this newspaper revealed the existence of handwritten ledgers, known as los papeles de Bárcenas, suggesting a parallel bookkeeping system for undeclared party funds. The former treasurer was also found to have millions of euros stashed away in Swiss bank accounts.  

In other news, the PDeCAT representatives in the Congress of Deputies and the Parliament of Catalonia will split from the JxCAT parliamentary groups in order to gain visibility. The party holds 4 seats in each parliament (out of 8 in Congress and out of 34 in the Catalan parliament). Contrary to the JxCAT stance, the PDeCAT is open to negotiate budget support with the Spanish government. The remaining PDeCAT members int eh Caralan parliament could hold the balance of power, but they won't jeopardize the incumbent government. On the other hand, the electoral viability of the pragmatic center-right nationalist parties seems dubious. A recent GAD3 poll released by La Vanguarida points to a pro-independence majority in popular vote, caused by a low turnout among the non-nationalists. The chances of the PDeCAT or the PNC to break into the parliament are slim on paper.





Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on September 09, 2020, 03:11:22 AM

In other news, the PDeCAT representatives in the Congress of Deputies and the Parliament of Catalonia will split from the JxCAT parliamentary groups

 I posted earlier the PDeCAT deputies will split from the JxCAT parliamentary groups,  but that's incorrect.  Apparently the PDeCAT members in the Catalan parliament want to remain in the JxCAT group, but acting independently. As for the PDeCAT representatives in Congress, I forgot that currently JxCAT lacks a parliamentary group there (possibly because JxCAT didn't reach 15% of the vote in all the Catalan provinces contested in general elections). The JxCAT deputies incorporated the so-called Plural group (created to clear the overcrowded Mixed Group) alongside Más País, BNG and Compromís. The composition of the Plural Group stands as follows; 4 JxCAT, 4 PDeCAT, 2 MP, 1 BNG and 1 Compromís


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: It's Perro Sanxe wot won it on September 10, 2020, 11:17:13 AM
Today, the government suffered its first major parliamentary defeat over a decree that forced local administrations to turn their surpluses over to the central government if they wanted to have access to a 5 billion euro aid fund. Congress overturned it, with PSOE and UP only managing to convince Teruel Existe's one MP to vote with them.

Mayors from all across the country have voiced their dissatisfaction with the plan, arguing that taking away their surpluses would hamper their ability so satisfy local needs at a moment where they are bigger and more urgent than ever and that it was unfair to deny aid to administrations without surpluses or unwilling to turn them over.

During the last-minute negotiations, the coalition agreed to give administrations that did not turn over their surpluses access to 40% of the funds, but it refused to suspend a rule from the previous PP government that limits the ability of municipalities to produce a deficit; which ended up being the main reason for its defeat. It is only the fourth time since 1979 that a government decree has been overturned.

The Finance Ministry has already announced that after this defeat all municipalities will have access to the aid fund.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Skye on September 12, 2020, 03:15:45 PM
Oh yeah, I should have mentioned the next CIS poll must not be far away, they tried to poll me a few days ago. Obviously had to decline since I'm not a citizen :P


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 12, 2020, 08:41:00 PM
Oh yeah, I should have mentioned the next CIS poll must not be far away, they tried to poll me a few days ago. Obviously had to decline since I'm not a citizen :P

I assume they could have still had some questions for you? Obviously none relating to politics but at least some along the lines of "What are the 3 biggest problems Spain faces?"


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Skye on September 13, 2020, 05:57:41 AM
Oh yeah, I should have mentioned the next CIS poll must not be far away, they tried to poll me a few days ago. Obviously had to decline since I'm not a citizen :P

I assume they could have still had some questions for you? Obviously none relating to politics but at least some along the lines of "What are the 3 biggest problems Spain faces?"

I thought so as well, but the interviewer specifically told me I had to be a citizen, so...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on September 13, 2020, 02:09:23 PM
Invymark poll

PSOE 28.6, PP 22.4, Vox 14.5, UP 11.3, Cs 7.3

A majority of the PSOE voters prefers budget deals with Cs, while a majority of UP voters favors ERC

There are rumours pointing to a change of alliances in Madrid. Ousting Ayuso would be a wonderful dream, but I won't believe it's possible until I see it. Ayuso's incompetence in handling the coronavirus crisis in Madrid is not the biggest of the PP's problems. The 'Kitchen' case might bring new surprises. Some people says it's going to be the Rajoy's Watergate


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on September 14, 2020, 09:17:34 AM
NC Report poll released by La Razón for the region of Madrid

PP 39 seats (28 4%)
PSOE 37 seats (27.4%)
Cs 19 seats (14%)
MM 17 seats (13%)
VOX 12 seats (9 4%)
UP 8 seats (5 9%)

Swings: PP +9, UP +1, PSOE n.c, VOX n.c. MM -3, Cs -7

The PP led by Isabel Diaz Ayuso would increase with regard the May 2019 election, which was a historical low for the conservative party in Madrid. However, a GAD3 poll released by ABC four months ago (May 2020) was rewarding 57 seats to the PP. Ciudadanos and Mas Madrid are down with regard May 2019, but they are seemingly recovering ground if we compare NC Report and GAD3 polls. These projections might suggest that the confrontational attitude of Ayuso was initially successful, but the management of the covid ceisis is eroding her party (PP holds healthcare and education departments in the regional government). Deputy premier Ignacio Aguado (Cs) is taking a more cooperative aporoach with the central government, in order to take distance from Ayuso ( it's not asecret the relationship between PP and Cs regional leaders is bad). Mas Madrid was going down in the polls after the last general elections and the departure of Manuela Carmena, but apparently the healthcare spokesperson Monica Garcia is scoring points (it's remarkable the cooperative stance of the municipal spokeswoman Rita Maestre, otoh).

According to the NC Report poll Mas Madrid is the preferred party in the age group between 18 and 29, the PSOE comes first in the age group between 30 and 44 and the PP wins in the age groups above 45



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 15, 2020, 09:33:04 AM
Today the Spanish government introduced the "Democratic Memory Act", which seems to be basically an expansion of the "Historic Memory Act" passed by the Zapatero government way back in 2005, involving how to deal with the Franco dictatorship; as well as tying in nicely with moving Franco's grave outside of the "Valle de los Caídos".

This bill will then need to be debated and passed by the Congress, but I imagine its passage is extremely likely as I can't see Catalan/Basque nationalists voting against it.

Some of the main points of the new law seem to be:

> The Valle de los Caídos will be reworked into a sort of museum that will honor the dead people during the Civil War in a less partisan way.

> Exhalting the old Francoist regime will be punished by a fine of up to 150 000€.

> The "Francisco Franco National Foundation", as well as any other associations that publicly support the old fascist regime, are outlawed

> All ideological, partisan or religiously motivated court sentences during the Franco era are considered null and void. This includes all sentences given out by the old "Court for the Repression of Freemasonry and Communism" and the "Public Order Court"

> Digging up the common graves of civil war victims will receive public funding, and a national census of victims and DNA will be created to help people identify their relatives killed during the war

> Some nobility titles given out by the Francoist authorities to civil war generals and what not will be removed

> The infamous francoist torturer "Billy El Niño" will have his medals posthumously taken out from him. This was planned to be done while he was still alive but he recently died.

> School curriculums will be updated to account for this historic memory.


https://www.elespanol.com/espana/20200914/franco-congreso-ley-memoria-democratica-preferido-sanchez/520448613_0.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on September 15, 2020, 01:19:48 PM
Yesterday night I watched the news at Canal 24h and heard the retired general Juan Chicharro, chairman of the Francoist foundation, who was interviewed by phone in order to know his opinion of the historical memory draft bill. The man was truly angry and claimed the bill is a liberticide perpetrated by the 'social-communist regime'. Then the news show host asked Mr Chicharro if he thinks there was more freedom under the Franco regime, as well as reminded him that apologists for Nazism are banned in Germany (this was challenged by Chicharro, amazingly). Juan Chicharro will consider to relocate his foundation in a "free country", in case this draft bill goes forward

There's some degree of kinship between Juan Chicharro and the Vox secretary general Javier Ortega Smith. Both are cousins of a female general recently appointed by the incumbent Defence minister of the 'social-communist regime' Margarita Robles

https://www.elmundo.es/loc/famosos/2019/08/31/5d67c594fc6c833c058b4619.html

The Benedictine monks will be expelled from Valle de los Caidos and the descendants of the International Brigades members will be offered Spanish citizenship

https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2020-09-15/spain-drafts-bill-against-remaining-legacy-of-franco-era.html

Quote
The Spanish Cabinet on Tuesday approved a draft bill containing a raft of measures that address the legacy of the civil war (1936-39) and the Francisco Franco regime, which lasted until the dictator’s death in 1975.

The Democratic Memory bill, which builds on existing historical memory legislation, contemplates closing down associations that still glorify the late dictator’s memory, including the Francisco Franco Foundation, which will be declared illegal (...)
 



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: BigSerg on September 16, 2020, 10:04:35 PM


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on September 17, 2020, 02:18:36 AM
Today the Spanish government introduced the "Democratic Memory Act", which seems to be basically an expansion of the "Historic Memory Act" passed by the Zapatero government way back in 2005, involving how to deal with the Franco dictatorship; as well as tying in nicely with moving Franco's grave outside of the "Valle de los Caídos".

This bill will then need to be debated and passed by the Congress, but I imagine its passage is extremely likely as I can't see Catalan/Basque nationalists voting against it.

Some of the main points of the new law seem to be:

> The Valle de los Caídos will be reworked into a sort of museum that will honor the dead people during the Civil War in a less partisan way.

> Exhalting the old Francoist regime will be punished by a fine of up to 150 000€.

> The "Francisco Franco National Foundation", as well as any other associations that publicly support the old fascist regime, are outlawed

> All ideological, partisan or religiously motivated court sentences during the Franco era are considered null and void. This includes all sentences given out by the old "Court for the Repression of Freemasonry and Communism" and the "Public Order Court"

> Digging up the common graves of civil war victims will receive public funding, and a national census of victims and DNA will be created to help people identify their relatives killed during the war

> Some nobility titles given out by the Francoist authorities to civil war generals and what not will be removed

> The infamous francoist torturer "Billy El Niño" will have his medals posthumously taken out from him. This was planned to be done while he was still alive but he recently died.

> School curriculums will be updated to account for this historic memory.


https://www.elespanol.com/espana/20200914/franco-congreso-ley-memoria-democratica-preferido-sanchez/520448613_0.html

Glorious news!

Franco's grave had already been moved last year, right?

Will PP / Cs / Vox vote against the bill?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on September 17, 2020, 05:01:52 AM


Glorious news!

Franco's grave had already been moved last year, right?

Will PP / Cs / Vox vote against the bill?

Yes, the Franco's grave was finally moved from Valle de los Caídos on October 24 past year.

Vox will oppose the draft bill in all likelihood, claiming that this is a revenge of the illegitimate social-communist regime. The attitude of PP and Cs with regard the historical memory is usually ranging between indifference, ambivalence and hostility. I expect that both parties abstain, claiming as usual that we don't need to go back on the past. Their spokespersons are already saying that the government throws up a smokescreen as a distraction from more pressing issues. These parties are uncomfortable for different reasons. Vox is the Francoist party (even though they would reject that label) and a radical right-wing split from the PP; the PP is the big party of the Spanish right with roots in the Francoist regime; Cs is a new party with leaders like Albert Rivera and Inés Arrimadas born in the democratic period that don't care about the past.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Skye on September 17, 2020, 05:49:16 AM
So, like I told you a few days ago, the new CIS is out. It, unsurprisingly, shows a strong lead for the PSOE:



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Samof94 on September 17, 2020, 06:11:53 AM
I read this thread and I was surprised to find out that Spain is considering banning an organization I am surprised even exists. The Francoist foundation doesn’t sound like a friend of democracy and probably appeals to ultra conservative Catholics and xenophobes.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on September 17, 2020, 07:21:21 AM
I read this thread and I was surprised to find out that Spain is considering banning an organization I am surprised even exists. The Francoist foundation doesn’t sound like a friend of democracy and probably appeals to ultra conservative Catholics and xenophobes.

You can bet the Francisco Franco National Foundation is not a friend of the democratic regime.

Unlike other countries, Spain is not a "militant democracy". Parties and organizations are not obliged to accept the constitutional regime in order to exist. Elected officials must promise or pledge to observe the Constitution. However, advocating a republican regime instead of the constitutional monarchy or the independence of a region from Spain are permitted. There's a Political Parties Law aimed at "guarantee the functioning of the democratic system". That legislation allows to ban parties that "repeatedly and severely"attempt against the democratic regime, advocate racism and xenophobia, or support violence and the activities of terrorist groups. But this law was passed in order to pave the way to outlaw Herri Batasuna, regarded the political wing of the Basque terrorist group ETA (the law was passed in June 2002 and Herri Batasuna was banned in March 2003).

Until now Spain lacked a legislation that bans organizations advocating the past dictatorial regime. Worse still: the Francoist foundation received public funds from the Aznar administration, while historians comlain because the personal files of Francisco Franco guarded by the foundation are not accessible for researchers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Franco_National_Foundation

Quote
The Francisco Franco National Foundation[ (Spanish: Fundación Nacional Francisco Franco, FNFF for short[4]) or National Francisco Franco Foundation is a foundation created in 1976[5] which promotes a positive interpretation of the Spanish dictator Francisco Franco. The only child of Franco, Carmen Franco (1926-2017) led the organisation and later became its honorary president.

In 2017 200,000 people signed a petition, calling on the Spanish government to ban the organisation.

In 2018, after new Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez promised that Franco's remains would be removed from the Valley of the Fallen, the Foundation collected a petition with 24,000 signatures to oppose the proposal, with its leader, General Juan Chicharro Ortega, calling the site a "monument to reconciliation".  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 17, 2020, 07:34:07 AM


Glorious news!

Franco's grave had already been moved last year, right?

Will PP / Cs / Vox vote against the bill?

Yes, the Franco's grave was finally moved from Valle de los Caídos on October 24 past year.

Vox will oppose the draft bill in all likelihood, claiming that this is a revenge of the illegitimate social-communist regime. The attitude of PP and Cs with regard the historical memory is usually ranging between indifference, ambivalence and hostility. I expect that both parties abstain, claiming as usual that we don't need to go back on the past. Their spokespersons are already saying that the government throws up a smokescreen as a distraction from more pressing issues. These parties are uncomfortable for different reasons. Vox is the Francoist party (even though they would reject that label) and a radical right-wing split from the PP; the PP is the big party of the Spanish right with roots in the Francoist regime; Cs is a new party with leaders like Albert Rivera and Inés Arrimadas born in the democratic period that don't care about the past.

Worth noting that when the Congress voted to dig up Franco's grave the result was 172 yes, 164 abstain. It was supported by all parties except PP and Cs (which abstained).

Though this was in 2018, before the elections. I personally think Cs will abstain and Vox will vote against. PP is a wildcard, they can either vote against or abstain.

Back in 2007 the "Historic Memory Law" was passed by PSOE, IU, CiU and PNV as well as the minor parties. PP voted against while ERC abstained because it did not go far enough.

CC and PRC might also be a possibility for abstaining but I think they will vote in favour.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: CumbrianLefty on September 17, 2020, 07:58:00 AM

Well I know they have moved to the right, but I would still be surprised if Cs did at least.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on September 17, 2020, 08:03:57 AM
CC and PRC might also be a possibility for abstaining but I think they will vote in favour.

Why should they abstain? I find it strange for regionalist parties not to agree with this.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 17, 2020, 08:06:31 AM
CC and PRC might also be a possibility for abstaining but I think they will vote in favour.

Why should they abstain? I find it strange for regionalist parties not to agree with this.

Well, CC is still a centre-right party at the end of the day so while unlikely it is not inconcievable that they abstain. PRC probably votes in favour though I guess.

Also there are some regionalist parties that are almost certain to abstain or vote no: UPN and Foro Asturias, though they both are little more than PP puppets at this point, especially the latter.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on September 17, 2020, 08:08:04 AM
CC and PRC might also be a possibility for abstaining but I think they will vote in favour.

Why should they abstain? I find it strange for regionalist parties not to agree with this.

Well, CC is still a centre-right party at the end of the day so while unlikely it is not inconcievable that they abstain. PRC probably votes in favour though I guess.

Also there are some regionalist parties that are almost certain to abstain or vote no: UPN and Foro Asturias, though they both are little more than PP puppets at this point, especially the latter.

Are they (UPN and Foro Asturias) even represented in the Cortes Generales? I have never heard of them.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 17, 2020, 08:23:08 AM
CC and PRC might also be a possibility for abstaining but I think they will vote in favour.

Why should they abstain? I find it strange for regionalist parties not to agree with this.

Well, CC is still a centre-right party at the end of the day so while unlikely it is not inconcievable that they abstain. PRC probably votes in favour though I guess.

Also there are some regionalist parties that are almost certain to abstain or vote no: UPN and Foro Asturias, though they both are little more than PP puppets at this point, especially the latter.

Are they (UPN and Foro Asturias) even represented in the Cortes Generales? I have never heard of them.

Yeah UPN has 2 seats as "Navarra Suma". I think Foro Asturias also has 1 seat but I am not completely sure, the party was on the verge of extinction or fully merging into PP lately. (and has a rather big internal divide on whether they should evolve into a centre-right regionalist party or should just merge back into PP)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on September 17, 2020, 08:30:05 AM
CC and PRC might also be a possibility for abstaining but I think they will vote in favour.

Why should they abstain? I find it strange for regionalist parties not to agree with this.

Well, CC is still a centre-right party at the end of the day so while unlikely it is not inconcievable that they abstain. PRC probably votes in favour though I guess.

Also there are some regionalist parties that are almost certain to abstain or vote no: UPN and Foro Asturias, though they both are little more than PP puppets at this point, especially the latter.

Are they (UPN and Foro Asturias) even represented in the Cortes Generales? I have never heard of them.

Yeah UPN has 2 seats as "Navarra Suma". I think Foro Asturias also has 1 seat but I am not completely sure, the party was on the verge of extinction or fully merging into PP lately. (and has a rather big internal divide on whether they should evolve into a centre-right regionalist party or should just merge back into PP)

Ahhh so UPN is the mythical Navarra +

Are Madrid and the two Castilles the only autonomous communities without any regional parties?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: kaoras on September 17, 2020, 08:40:55 AM
The Castilles have but they don't get traction outside of UPL (Unión del Pueblo Leonés) which is not Castillian but rather Leonese-regionalist.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on September 17, 2020, 08:46:41 AM
Regarding the CIS poll, it's the first time Cs is in double digits since 2019. Given the questioned credibility of Mr Tezanos, I guess the figure reveals that it's important to treat well the party of Ms Arrimadas at this juncture. Pedro Sánchez wishes to attract Cs to his orbit, not only because he needs the votes to pass the budget.

 Appatently Cs is unwilling to break the troubled coalition with the PP in Madrid, despite it was rumoured that the PSOE would be willing to reinforce Cs granting the region's presidency to the oranges ( with the neccessary cooperation of Más Madrid). According to the PSOE candidate Ángel Gabilondo, Cs refuses to talk with him about a motion of no confidence. However the premier Isabel Díaz Ayuso looked very worried in a recent debate on the state of the Madrid region. She was considering to call a snap election months ago, when she had favourable polls, but Pablo Casado prevented her to do so. In case she feels her position is unsecure because Cs has the intent to break away, she would prefer a snap election to a no confidence motion. Apparently there are not going to be new developments and the PP-Cs coalición will continue to handle with the coronavirus outbreaks in Madrid, quite possibly the hardest hit European region at this moment


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on September 17, 2020, 09:11:44 AM
The Castilles have but they don't get traction outside of UPL (Unión del Pueblo Leonés) which is not Castillian but rather Leonese-regionalist.

Castilian regionalism is indeed irrelevant, aside the Leonese People's Unión (UPL) that advocates the separation of León in order to regain its former regional status. There are small fringe parties like Tierra Comunera or the Castilian Party, though

Más Madrid could be regarded a regional party, too. In the beginning it was a party founded to run in local and regional elections, even though Íñigo Errejón launched the Más País experiment months later in order to run in the last general elections. I think Más Madrid is a fully autonomous organization. Currently the MM leader is Mónica Garcia, who is also a doctor and the party's healthcare spokesperson. The spokesman in the regional assembly is Pablo Gómez Perpinyà , a close friend of Errejón, while the leader of the municipal group is Rita Maestre. I don't have a clue about the future of Más País


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Skye on September 17, 2020, 10:23:45 AM
CC and PRC might also be a possibility for abstaining but I think they will vote in favour.

Why should they abstain? I find it strange for regionalist parties not to agree with this.

Well, CC is still a centre-right party at the end of the day so while unlikely it is not inconcievable that they abstain. PRC probably votes in favour though I guess.

Also there are some regionalist parties that are almost certain to abstain or vote no: UPN and Foro Asturias, though they both are little more than PP puppets at this point, especially the latter.

Are they (UPN and Foro Asturias) even represented in the Cortes Generales? I have never heard of them.

Yeah UPN has 2 seats as "Navarra Suma". I think Foro Asturias also has 1 seat but I am not completely sure, the party was on the verge of extinction or fully merging into PP lately. (and has a rather big internal divide on whether they should evolve into a centre-right regionalist party or should just merge back into PP)

Ahhh so UPN is the mythical Navarra +

Are Madrid and the two Castilles the only autonomous communities without any regional parties?

To add to that, the PP goes to elections in Asturias as PP-Foro.

The Castilles have but they don't get traction outside of UPL (Unión del Pueblo Leonés) which is not Castillian but rather Leonese-regionalist.

Castilian regionalism is indeed irrelevant, aside the Leonese People's Unión (UPL) that advocates the separation of León in order to regain its former regional status. There are small fringe parties like Tierra Comunera or the Castilian Party, though

Más Madrid could be regarded a regional party, too. In the beginning it was a party founded to run in local and regional elections, even though Íñigo Errejón launched the Más País experiment months later in order to run in the last general elections. I think Más Madrid is a fully autonomous organization. Currently the MM leader is Mónica Garcia, who is also a doctor and the party's healthcare spokesperson. The spokesman in the regional assembly is Pablo Gómez Perpinyà , a close friend of Errejón, while the leader of the municipal group is Rita Maestre. I don't have a clue about the future of Más País

I mean, they're regional alright, but regionalist?

Also is Andalusian regionalism even relevant? I do know Adelante Andalusia was sooooooort of that, but it was mainly Podemos in the end, right?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 17, 2020, 11:27:14 AM
I actually did once an analysis of which autonomous communities had never had a regionalist party with any sort of regional representation and my answer was actually very surprising. There have been only 2 of them: Castille-La Mancha and Murcia.

Castille-La Mancha gets helped by an absolutely horrible electoral system that harms 3rd parties by a lot.

Murcia has actually had some attempts at regionalist parties, like the "Cartagena Citizens Movement" in 2015 (Cartagena area only though) and the PP splitter party "Somos Región"

However all other regions have had some sort of regionalist party represented at some point.

Madrid of course has Mas Madrid (though it only barely counts). Castille-Leon not only has UPL; but also X Ávila (PP splitter in that province).

Better yet, the "Commoners Land - Castillian Nationalist Party" somehow managed to get 1 seat in the 1999 regional elections. They have always been a fringe party before and since then, so how they got in in 1999 is a mystery to me.

Here is the list of nationalist/regionalist parties with representation, for each region:

Basque Country: PNV (1980-present), EA (1986-2001), HB (1980-2005), EHAK (2005-2009), Bildu (2012-present)

Catalonia: CiU/JxCat (1980-present), ERC (1980-present), PSA (1980-1984), SI (2010-2012), CUP (2012-present)

Galicia: BNG (1981-present), CG (1985-1993)

Andalucia: PA (1982-2008)

Aragon: PAR (1983-present), ChA (1995-present)

Asturias: URAS (1999-2003), PAS (1991-1999), Foro (2011-present)

Balearic Islands: PSM/Mes (1983-present), UM (1983-1991; 1995-2011), PI (2015-present)

Canary Islands: UPC/ICAN (1983-1993), AIC (1987-1993), CC (1993-present), PCN/FNC (1995-1999; 2003-2007) NCa (2011-present)

Cantabria: PRC (1983-present); UPCA (1991-1999)

Castille-La Mancha: Never

Castille-Leon: SI (1987-1991), UPL (1995-present), TC-PNC (1999-2003), X Ávila (2019-present)

Extremadura: ExU (1983-1991; 1995-1999)

Madrid: MM (2019-present)

Murcia: Never

Navarra: UPN (1979-present), HB (1979-2003), Bildu (2011-present), Aralar/NaBai/GBai (2003-present), EA (1987-2007), PNV (1979-1987), CDN (1995-2011)

La Rioja: PR+ (1983-2015)

Valencia: UV (1987-1999); Compromís (2011-present)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on September 17, 2020, 11:43:04 AM
Well, no. I wouldn't say that Más Madrid is regionalist in a traditional sense, even though Errejón is sympathetic with the notion of of "plurinational" state and speaks Catalan fluently. The case of Adelante Andalucía is different.

The Andalusian regionalism was relevant in the past, particularly the Andalusian Socialist Party (PSA) during the first years of the transition (late 1970s and early 1980s) with leaders like Alejandro Rojas-Marcos. The PSA won 5 seats in the 1979 general elections and even contested the first elections to the Parliament of Catalonia in 1980, winning two seats thanks to the vote of people with Andalusian ascent in the Barcelona 's 'red belt'. The decadence began in 1982 with the PSOE landslide in general elections. The Andalusian regionalists lost representation in Congress in 1982; later they regained 2 seats in 1989 and 1 seat in 2000. However the rebranded Andalusian Party (PA, 1984) still achieved some successes, retaining its status of parliamentary force at regional level and even participating in coalition governments led by the Socialist Manuel Chaves (1996-2004). The PA also governed important cities in Andalusia, including the Pedro Pacheco's stronghold of Jerez, the port town of Algeciras and even Sevilla (the aforementioned Rojas-Marcos was mayor of the Andalusian capital between 1991 and 1995, in coalition with the PP). With the turn of the century the PA became increasingly irrelevant, losing parliamentary status in the 2008 regional elections. The PA was dissolved in 2015.

Adelante Andalucía was initially the brand for the coalition between Podemos, IU and small left-wing regionalist parties ( partly PA remnants). I think that AA was registered as a political party by Teresa Rodríguez or her supporters. Teresa Rodríguez was the Podemos regional leader and candidate, as well as one of the leading figures of the Anticapitalistas faction (they were like the Trots within Podemos, the far-left wing) Disagreements over the participation in the coalition government led by Pedro Sánchez, as well as the unwillingness of Pablo Iglesias to grant AA independent status (similar to that of the ECP in Catalonia) , led to the departure of Anticapitalistas. Now Teresa Rodriguez and her supporters tare trying to launch a left-wing regionalist party with a strong focus on Andalusian identity using the Adelante. Andalucía trademark. The relationship within the AA parliamentary group between the Rodriguez faction, Podemos and IU is strained and rather confusing. The departure of Rodríguez allowed Pablo Iglesias to take full control of the Podemos regional organization in Andalusia, though. Podemos, IU and AA could even try to form a new coalition, who knows


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on September 18, 2020, 10:27:32 AM
Chaos in Madrid: deputy premier Aguado asks central givernment for help. Pedro Sánchez offers a face-to-face meeting with premier Ayuso at regional government HQs in Puerta del Sol. Ayuso accepts the offer and is expected to announce measures to tackle the outbreaks right now

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-09-17/madrid-calls-on-central-government-for-help-amid-chaotic-management-of-worsening-coronavirus-situation.html

Quote
The deputy premier of Madrid, Ignacio Aguado, on Thursday called on the central government to “actively get involved” in efforts to contain the spread of the coronavirus in the region. The politician from center-right party Ciudadanos (Citizens) held a news conference during which he recognized that “the situation of the epidemic in Madrid is not going well. It is getting worse. We are going to have to make greater efforts.”

(...)

 Shortly after Aguado’s public statements, Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez sent a letter to Madrid regional premier Isabel Díaz Ayuso, of the PP, to suggest a face-to-face meeting at her office. On Friday afternoon, authorities announced that the Sánchez-Ayuso meeting will take place at noon on Monday at the headquarters of the Madrid regional government  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: parochial boy on September 20, 2020, 01:46:41 PM
Could you make an actual contribution please, instead of just obsessively posting tweets about podemos?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on September 20, 2020, 02:38:36 PM
Could you make an actual contribution please, instead of just obsessively posting tweets about podemos?

The funny thing is that most tweets are in Spanish and this is?an Anglo forum. This one says that Podemos and Más Madrid are supporting protests against the restrictions to mobility announced yesterday by the Madrid premier Isabel Díaz Ayuso. I know that both parties have protested because restrictions are selective and affect primarily low income areas south of Madrid. The management of the coronavirus crisis by the regional government is regarded chaotic by nearly everybody. You cimplain about how bad is BoJo because you know very little about our Ayuso

"Madrid announces new restrictions on mobility to curb spike in Covid-19 cases"

 https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-09-18/madrid-announces-new-restrictions-on-mobility-to-curb-spike-in-covid-19.html

Quote
 The Madrid regional government on Friday announced new restrictions aimed at curbing the rising number of coronavirus cases in the region. The order will go into effect on Monday and last for at least 14 days.

The restrictions on mobility affect people living within 37 basic health areas, of which 26 are located in six districts of the city of Madrid, and the rest in other municipalities in the Madrid region. People will be allowed in and out for essential activities such as going to school or work, or to care for dependents. Social gatherings are reduced to six people and public parks will remain closed. Capacity at stores and other commercial establishments is set at 50% and closing time is 10pm with the exception of pharmacies and gas stations.

The affected areas are home to around 855,193 people or 17% of the population of the Madrid region, although they account for 25% of detected coronavirus cases. “We are aware that if don’t take these measures, the situation will be worse in a few days," said the deputy premier of the Madrid region, Ignacio Aguado.

A basic health area is much smaller than a city district and can include several primary healthcare centers. There are around 286 basic health areas in the Madrid region, according to the regional health department.

Affected municipalities besides the capital are Fuenlabrada (the health areas of Alicante, Cuzco and Francia), Parla (San Blas and Isabel II), San Sebastián de los Reyes (Reyes Católicos), Getafe (Las Margaritas and Sánchez Morate), Alcobendas (Chopera and Miraflores) and the entire towns of Humanes and Moraleja de Enmedio.

In the city of Madrid, the affected health areas are located in the city districts of Carabanchel (the health areas of Puerta Bonita, Vista Alegre and Guayaba), Usera (Almendrales, Las Calesas, Zofío, Orcasur and San Fermín), Villaverde (San Andrés, San Cristóbal, El Espinillo and Los Rosales), Villa de Vallecas, Puente de Vallecas (Entrevías, Martínez de la Riva, San Diego, Numancia, Peña Prieta, Pozo del Tío Raimundo, Ángela Uriarte, Alcalá de Guadaira and Federica Montseny), and Ciudad Lineal (Doctor Cirajas, Ghandi, Daroca and La Elipa). t
  

As said before most of the municipalities, districts, and areas listed above are low income and located south.

Madrid is the epicenter of the crisis in Spain

Quote
 After it was badly hit during the first wave, Madrid has once again become the epicenter of the coronavirus crisis in Spain. According to the latest epidemiological monitoring report published on Thursday by the Spanish Health Ministry, the average incidence of the coronavirus in the last 14 days in the Madrid region came in at 659 cases per 100,000 people. This is more than double the national average of 260 cases.  



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Niemeyerite on September 21, 2020, 12:02:43 PM
Could you make an actual contribution please, instead of just obsessively posting tweets about podemos?

Lol " actual contribution". Velasco only says bad PP or vox things, I've never seen him criticize left

Did he say anything about the ERE scandal?

criticizing the political right all the time, it's no "actual contribution"

I don't know if you are intelligent enough for that, but you could contribute a bit more than random tweets in Spanish even if your only purpose is saying s**t about Podemos.

Even if Velasco were actually a PSOE or Podemos hack (hint: he isn't), you can see he's able to elaborate, express his opinion, share information about the latest events and polling... On the other hand, you're barely able to write two sentences and act as if this Forum were Twitter or the comment section of a Facebook post.

So please if you're just going to troll, go on "whataboutism" and accuse people who actually contribute of having an ideology, I think it'd be actually better to abstain from posting the same s**t over and over again. You're convincing no one and it makes  you look stupid. So do like me and just read and lurk till you're prepared to make an actual contribution. Again, this is not Twitter.

Thanks!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: BigSerg on September 21, 2020, 12:09:24 PM
Could you make an actual contribution please, instead of just obsessively posting tweets about podemos?

Lol " actual contribution". Velasco only says bad PP or vox things, I've never seen him criticize left

Did he say anything about the ERE scandal?

criticizing the political right all the time, it's no "actual contribution"

I don't know if you are intelligent enough for that, but you could contribute a bit more than random tweets in Spanish even if your only purpose is saying s**t about Podemos.

Even if Velasco were actually a PSOE or Podemos hack (hint: he isn't), you can see he's able to elaborate, express his opinion, share information about the latest events and polling... On the other hand, you're barely able to write two sentences and act as if this Forum were Twitter or the comment section of a Facebook post.

So please if you're just going to troll, go on "whataboutism" and accuse people who actually contribute of having an ideology, I think it'd be actually better to abstain from posting the same s**t over and over again. You're convincing no one and it makes  you look stupid. So do like me and just read and lurk till you're prepared to make an actual contribution. Again, this is not Twitter.

Thanks!

No.

La rioja
23.228 (cases per millon)
5,40 (fatality rate)

Castilla la mancha
17.11 (cases per millon)
8,80 (fatality rate)

Extremadura
7.668 (cases per millon)
6,6 (fatality rate)

Madrid
28.008 (cases per millon)
4,81 (fatality rate)

The epidemiological situation in La Rioja worsens, with 90% of the ICU occupied
https://www.lavanguardia.com/local/la-rioja/20200916/483514031142/la-rioja-coronavirus-uci-evolucion-restricciones.html

It would seem that it is somewhat ideological to go against the Community of Madrid (PP) and forget Aragon, La Rioja, Castilla la Mancha and Navarra (the 4 ruled on the left)

In fact, Madrid, being much higher in population than all of them, becomes the community with the lowest mortality rate by coronavirus and per 100,000 inhabitants in the second wave.

It is very false to say that Madrid has the highest growth rate of coronavirus, the community that has the greatest growth in cases, is Extremadura (Psoe).
()

But Ayuso!!!!!!!!!!!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: BigSerg on September 21, 2020, 12:12:35 PM
Thus live the confinement by neighborhoods in Palma de Mallorca: "We do not know if we can cross a street or not"

While in Madrid the selective confinement of neighborhoods is being shuffled to slow the expansion of the coronavirus, this experiment has already been put into practice this week in a large city such as Palma de Mallorca, the eighth largest in Spain with about half a million inhabitants.

Autonomy with restrictions
These are the restrictions that other communities have approved so far to stop the coronavirus
9.5% of its neighbors have been left within one of six confined areas, more than 40,000 people who cannot leave their neighborhoods except for good cause and who must live again with restrictions.


https://www.20minutos.es/noticia/4384554/0/confinamiento-selectivo-palma-mallorca-no-sabemos-podemos-cruzar-calle/


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Niemeyerite on September 21, 2020, 12:52:52 PM
That's some good cherry-picking there, but hey, I won't criticize it too much. At least, it's an improvement over "tweeting". Well done 💪

But just to clarify, Madrid is the region with the most cases, cases per capita, deaths and deaths per capita. Fatality (deaths/cases) is not the best indicator when you consider in some places they're not doing that many PCR tests (that means less cases detected - -> higher fatality) because they don't have the horrible situation we have here in Madrid (once you detect a positive, you start testing everyone involved with him, so that increases dramatically the number of cases which reduces fatality).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Former President tack50 on September 22, 2020, 04:09:13 AM
I will add that, while Madrid does have the worst numbers and is therefore more deserving of attention, Spanish media (and this goes for both conservative and left leaning media) does have a big problem of being too Madrid-centric in most cases, so Madrid gets an oversized amount of attention.

My theory is that this is caused because 90% of national Spanish media are based off of Madrid; with the only real exceptions I know of being La Vanguardia and El Periódico (both based in Barcelona, and they tend to cater more to a Catalan audience)

But unless Velasco is secretly the head of El Mundo or something, I doubt that he is responsible for that bias :P


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on September 22, 2020, 07:35:48 AM
More news from Madrid, sorry.

Spanish PM Pedro Sánchez and Madrid premier Isabel Díaz Ayuso met yesyerday.

Sánchez: "Together we will prevail. This is an epidemiological battle, not an ideological one"

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-09-21/spanish-pm-meets-madrid-chief-over-covid-19-measures-warns-of-very-tough-weeks-ahead.html

Quote
Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez on Monday warned about the need to consider “other scenarios” and warned of “very tough weeks up ahead” as the coronavirus epidemic continued to escalate in the Madrid region.

Speaking after a face-to-face meeting with Madrid regional premier Isabel Díaz Ayuso to coordinate measures against the spread of the coronavirus, Sánchez indirectly alluded to the state of alarm that kept Spaniards mostly confined to their homes between mid-March and mid-June.

“We must be prepared to consider other scenarios if necessary,” said the leader of the Socialist Party (PSOE), who heads a minority government in coalition with the leftist Unidas Podemos. Sánchez added that because of its situation and characteristics, “Madrid needs a special plan.”  

There were protests in the Madrid areas affected by lockdowns. Protesters deem the measures arbitrary and discriminatory (my beloved Errejón adds they are not based on scientific approach). Madrid premier Ayuso and mayor Almeida say it's no time to protest, but both approved the demonstrations against the Sánchez government that took place in the affluent Salamanca district during the first corinavirus wave.

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-09-21/protestors-take-to-the-streets-to-oppose-new-selective-lockdowns-in-areas-of-madrid-calling-for-regional-premier-to-quit.html

Quote
Several demonstrations took place over the weekend in Madrid in protest at the regional government’s plans to impose selective coronavirus confinements due to the rising numbers of Covid-19 cases and deaths that are being registered in the area.

After a protest on Friday evening in the capital’s central Puerta de Sol square, Sunday saw thousands of people take to the streets in a wave of demonstrations in many of the 37 areas of the city of Madrid and the surrounding region where, from Monday onward, there will be restrictions on mobility.

Called to protest by organizations from a number of neighborhoods, with instructions to wear masks and to respect social distancing, the demonstrators denounced the regional government’s plans as “ineffective and discriminatory,” claiming that they were focused on southern satellite cities such as Fuenlabrada and humble, working-class neighborhoods. They also called for greater investment and resources for local healthcare centers and for public transportation.

Today the English version of El País is full of headlines concerning the situation in Maadrid. You may think there's a conspiracy against Ayuso, but that's not my fault

"Covid-19 incidence exceeds 1,000 cases per 100,000 inhabitants in 16 areas of Madrid with no new restrictions "

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-09-22/covid-19-incidence-exceeds-1000-cases-per-100000-inhabitants-in-16-areas-of-madrid-with-no-new-restrictions.html

"Health Ministry reports 31,000 new coronavirus cases detected this weekend, a third of them in Madrid"

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-09-22/health-ministry-reports-31000-new-coronavirus-cases-detected-this-weekend-a-third-of-them-in-madrid.html



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on September 22, 2020, 08:05:51 AM
Even if Velasco were actually a PSOE or Podemos hack (hint: he isn't)

I try not being a hack. but I don't hide my ideology and opinions. I have stated in this thread that I had certain sympathy for Errejón, but ended voting tactically for one of the parties of the coalition government. I don't feel very enthusiastic with the government, which coronavirus record has arguably more errors than successes. The problem is that the opposition is much worse. I have criticized the aggressive tone of Pablo Casado (that's expected in Santiago Abascal) because I think in times of crisis we need unity and constructive attitude. Aside the national leaders. the ,main antagonists to the central government have been Catalan premier Quim Torra and Madrid premier Isabel Díaz Ayuso. Both have accused the Sánchez government of bad management and authoritarianism, but when the government left room to the regional governments to act in their own (it was an error, because deescalation should have been more gradual) both Torra and Ayuso have demonstrated great incompetence. The result is that Torra refuses to call elections in Catalonia because Junts is fearing to lose, while Ayuso is asking for help to the central government after her harsh attacks. She has every right to demand support from the cetral government, but she did nothing in previous months to reinforce the health system in advance of the second wave- let alone the chaos in schools-. As journalist Iñaki Gabilondo says, neither Sánchez nor Ayuso have reasons to feel proud and should be more humble. What is certain is that this is no time for cultural wars.

You should participate in discussions more frequently, Julio.

I will add that, while Madrid does have the worst numbers and is therefore more deserving of attention, Spanish media (and this goes for both conservative and left leaning media) does have a big problem of being too Madrid-centric in most cases, so Madrid gets an oversized amount of attention.

My theory is that this is caused because 90% of national Spanish media are based off of Madrid; with the only real exceptions I know of being La Vanguardia and El Periódico (both based in Barcelona, and they tend to cater more to a Catalan audience)

But unless Velasco is secretly the head of El Mundo or something, I doubt that he is responsible for that bias :P

I'm editing El Mundo in my spare time, that's the reason why he newspaper is now called The Carmena's Village Voice, or The Bolivarian Gazette ;D


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Niemeyerite on September 22, 2020, 12:51:50 PM
Thanks for all your contributions here Andi. It's nice to know that Spain is well-represented in this forum and that our American friends have complete, reliable information about what's happening here because of you. Congratulations for that!

Unfortunately I don't have much free time right now and I barely read or watch the news (I still watch El Intermedio though hahaha) so I don't feel I have much to say 😔


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on September 28, 2020, 06:29:05 PM
Flash update. Supreme Court bars Catalan premier from office for disobedience

https://english.elpais.com/politics/catalonia_independence/2020-09-28/spanish-supreme-court-bars-catalan-premier-from-public-office-for-disobedience.html

Quote
The Spanish Supreme Court on Monday upheld an 18-month ban from public office handed down to Catalan premier Quim Torra for disobedience. The unanimous sentence is definitive and means that Torra will have to step down as premier, paving the way for a fresh institutional crisis in Catalonia.

The Catalan High Court – which first found the Catalan premier guilty of the accusations – has already begun the process to execute the sentence and has notified Torra’s attorney that the politician is barred from office from today onward.

On December 19, the Catalan High Court found Torra, a hard-line supporter of Catalan independence, guilty of disobedience for failing to remove banners supporting jailed separatist leaders from public buildings during campaigning ahead of the 2018 municipal and European elections. The Catalan premier was ordered to take down the signs by Spain’s National Electoral Board (JEC), which argued they violated the rules on maintaining neutrality during election campaigns.

The Catalan High Court barred Torra from public office for 18 months and ordered him to pay a fine of €30,000 and the legal costs of the trial. Torra appealed the decision at the Supreme Court, but on Monday, its magistrates upheld the sentence, arguing that the Catalan premier had “stubbornly and obstinately” refused to observe the orders from the JEC.

In the lead up to the May 26 elections, Torra refused to take down a banner from the Palau de la Generalitat, the seat of the Catalan government, which carried messages calling for the release of the politicians and civic association leaders involved in the 2017 secessionist drive in Catalonia. These individuals were being held in custody while their trial for offenses including sedition and misuse of funds was heard in the Supreme Court. In October of last year, the defendants were found guilty and nine of them were given lengthy prison sentences.

Torra also refused to remove esteladas – the unofficial flag adopted by supporters of Catalan independence – and yellow ribbons – a symbol of support for the jailed separatist leaders – from buildings belonging to the regional government.

The Supreme Court’s decision means that Torra will be barred for 18 months from both public office, be it at a local, regional, state or European level, and from local, regional and national government (...)  

I've been busy with other affairs and don't know the details of the deal between coalition partners JxCAT and ERC atm. I heard that deputy premier Pere Aragonés (ERC) will take the role of "interim president"  Elections in Catalonia could take place on Febriary 7, 2021.

Ayuso wars. "Government intervention of Madrid looms as regional administration refuses to implement stricter coronavirus measures "

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-09-28/government-intervention-of-madrid-looms-as-regional-administration-refuses-to-implement-stricter-coronavirus-measures.html

Quote
The Spanish government and the Madrid regional administration are currently engaged in last-minute negotiations in a bid to avoid the former from intervening in the latter, given the resistance of the region’s premier, Isabel Díaz Ayuso, to implement stricter coronavirus measures despite having the worst infection rates in Europe.

The government of Socialist Party (PSOE) Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez has been preparing a way to strengthen the restrictions across Madrid, after it emerged on Friday that the regional government – run by the conservative Popular Party (PP) in coalition with center-right Ciudadanos (Citizens) and propped up by far-right Vox – had rejected the recommendations of the Health Ministry to combat the spread of the coronavirus in the region, and was limiting itself to rolling out existing restrictions in 37 basic healthcare areas to a handful of other zones (...)  


Leaving aside the endless Catalan conundrum and the battle over Madrid, the govern)met faces the hostility of the General Council of the Judiciary (which renewal is blocked by the PP). The council's chairman Carlos Lesmes leaked that king Felipe phoned and said that he would liked to attend the appointment of a new promotion in judges, which takes place annually in Barcelona with the presence of the head of state and all the general council members. The problem is that the event was going to coincide with the Supreme Couurt rule on Torra, so the government asked the judiciary to postpone it. Given that the government couldn't secure that the event and the rule were on different dates, the presence of king Felipe was banned in order to not exposing the head of state to public disturbances (I get there was no concern on the king's security, but on not worsening his negative image in Catalonia). Leaving aside the usual communication errors of the government, the indiscretion and the animosity of the conservative judge Lesmes look pretty obvious. The king's household racted saying that king Felipe made a courtesy call to Lesmes and they hold an informal conversation without political implications. However, Consumer Affairs minister Alberto Garzón openly criticized the king interpreting he was meddling in the conflict, as well as deputy premier Pablo Iglesias in a less overt manner. Opposition leader Pablo casado reacted demnding the resignation of Garzón and accusing the government of mistreatment to the king's figure.

The qestion is that, at this juncture, the burden of the state settles on the shoulders of Pedro Sánchez and the PSOE and nobody knows how resistent they are...

There have been some rotests on Catalonia, although not as serious as the protests after the rule that imprisoned the leaders of the (sort of) unilateral secession attempt

I enjoyed reading this profile of the "militant president" Torra in La Vamgiardia, on the other hand. Among other things, I discovered that he worked for a Swiss insurance company and lived in Switzerland for more than a year. Spanish, sorry

https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20200928/483650956311/quim-torra-perfil-president-generalitat-activista.html



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on October 02, 2020, 09:17:28 AM
Pere Aragones, who is acting as caretaker premier, points that elections in Catalonia could take place on February 14 next year

Ayuso Wars. "New coronavirus restrictions in Madrid will be implemented tonight despite regional court appeal"

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-10-02/new-coronavirus-restrictions-in-madrid-will-be-implemented-tonight-despite-regional-court-appeal.html

Quote
The Madrid regional government today filed an appeal at Spain’s High Court, the Audiencia Nacional, against the measures that the Health Ministry has introduced across Spain in a bid to halt the spread of the coronavirus. The Madrid premier, Isabel Díaz Ayuso of the conservative Popular Party (PP), has opted for legal action that includes an injunction that could suspend the new restrictions within the next 10 days, despite them having been voted for by a majority of Spain’s regions on Wednesday. The restrictions are due to be applied from 10pm on Friday in municipalities of more than 100,000 residents where certain requisites are met.

As it did during the first wave, Madrid has once again become the epicenter of the coronavirus crisis in Spain, and according to the latest Health Ministry data, currently accounts for 35% of new cases despite having just 14% of the country’s population. 



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on October 09, 2020, 03:07:17 PM
Spanish government declares state of alarm in the region of Madrid

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-10-09/spanish-cabinet-declares-state-of-alarm-in-madrid-region-in-bid-to-slow-spread-of-coronavirus.html

Quote
The Spanish Cabinet on Friday decided to declare a state of alarm in the Madrid region for a 15-day period, in a bid to get coronavirus infections under control. It did so despite the fierce opposition of the regional government, which has been resisting the central administration’s calls in recent weeks to implement stricter measures to control the epidemic. The restrictions will be applied in the municipalities of Alcobendas, Alcorcón, Fuenlabrada, Getafe, Leganés, Madrid, Móstoles, Parla and Torrejón de Ardoz.

A legal and political battle over how to contain the virus while protecting the economy has been openly playing out between the central government, headed by a center-left coalition of the Socialist Party (PSOE) and Unidas Podemos, and the Madrid regional government, run by a center-right alliance of the Popular Party (PP) and Ciudadanos (Citizens), propped up by the far-right Vox.

New measures were agreed on last week by a majority of the country’s regions, and involved a perimetral confinement for municipalities with more than 100,000 residents should a series of criteria be met, as well as other rules such as early closing times for establishments and limited capacity in bars and restaurants. Last Friday, amid the opposition of the regional government, 10 cities in Madrid – those listed above, plus Alcalá de Henares, which has not been removed from the list due to an improvement in its coronavirus data – saw the measures introduced.

But the Madrid High Court on Thursday struck down the confinement measures in the government’s restrictions, meaning that the 4,786,948 Madrileños who had been subject to the lockdowns in their municipalities were free to move around once more and could not be fined for doing so. The court ruled that the government could not limit the fundamental right of freedom of movement without resorting to a state of alarm. The Castilla y León High Court, however, today ratified the implementation of the same measures in the municipalities of León, Palencia and San Andrés del Rabanedo.

Article 116 of the Spanish Constitution describes three legal categories for emergency situations: a state of alarm, state of emergency and state of siege (in Spanish: estado de alarma, estado de excepción and estado de sitio). It was the first of these scenarios that was implemented by the central government on a nationwide basis in March, at the outset of the pandemic, and that was used to lock down residents of Spain in their homes to flatten the curve of the coronavirus. In this case, the government has made clear that the restrictions will not be as severe: they will just be applied to the Madrid region, and will involve the aforementioned perimetral confinement of municipalities, along with other previously implemented measures aimed at reducing social contact.

According to La Moncloa prime ministerial palace, after returning late last night from a visit to Algeria, Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez of the PSOE called the regional premier of Madrid, Isabel Díaz Ayuso of the PP, to offer her three possible ways out. Her administration could either implement restrictions based on a 1986 public health law; it could request the declaration of a state of alarm, so that the central and regional governments implement it on a joint basis; or the Spanish government would unilaterally declare the state of alarm, without the need for the regional authorities to previously file a request to do so. Sánchez gave Ayuso until 12pm today to come up with a response (...)

Spain is more than Madrid, Barcelona, the Catalan conundrum and the Ayuso Wars. There are regions that are performing better and get little media coverage such as Asturias, Galicia, Valencia or the Canary Islands.

 Valencia premier Ximo Puig would win regional elections handlily. According to a poll released by Levante EMV, the left bloc would strengthen its majority from 52 to 60 seats (out of 99)

PSOE 36 (32.7%)
PP 21 (19.6%)
Compromís 15 (14.8%)
VOX 11 (11.1%)
UP 9 (9.9%)
Cs 7 (7.5%)

A DYM poll released by 20 minutos shows premier Ayuso losing ground to the benefit of VOX. The PSOE would win the elections again and Más Madrid matches the May 2019 results, but the left bloc would fall short of a majority (Left 63-64 / Right 68-69). Cs is still holding the key, having to opt between the PSOE and the PP with the increasing VOX influence. The VOX regional leader Rocío Monasterio is remarkably smarter than premier Ayuso, which is not a common trait in the far-wight party and makes her potentially more dangerous. Monasterio is wife of the VOX spokesman in Congress Iván Espinosa de los Monteros.

PSOE 38/39 (28.5%)
PP 33 (24.3%)
MM 19 (14.0%)
Cs 18/19 (13.9%)
VOX 17 (12.7%)
UP 6 (5.1%)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on October 12, 2020, 04:44:43 AM
Today is the Spain's National Holiday

According to a 40dB poll commissioned by a platform of independent media, 40.9% would support the republic and only 34.9% the monarchy in a referendum. The poll asks questions about other issues like interest in politics or habits of consuming political news. I'll post only the results related to monarchy and democracy.

- Value the importance of living in a country with  democratic regime (0-10 scale): average response rate is 8.7

- Value your level of satisfaction with the functioning of democracy in Spain (0-10 scale): average response 4.5

- Value your level of satisfaction with the monarchy in Spain (0-10 scale): average response 4.6

Trust in the institutions (0-10 scale):

Parliament 4.2, Armed Forces 6.2, Monarchy 4.3, Parties 3.0, Catholic Church 3.2, Judiciary 4.7, Media 4.3, Trade Unions 3.7

- Do you think it's necessary a constitutional reform? Yes 71.9%, No 13.8%, Don't Know 14.2%

- - Do you think it's necessary a referendum on monarchy? Yes 47.8%, No 36.1%, Don't Know 16.1%

- What Would you vote in a referendum between monarchy and republic?

Monarchy 34.9%, Republic 40.9%, Blank 4.9%, Won't Vote 6.4%, Don't Know 12.9%

Monarchy / Republic breakdown by party

PSOE 29.9 / 55.0, PP 76.0 /11.0, VOX 79.2 / 9.6, UP 2.0 / 91.0, Cs 59.8 / 23.5

Andalusia: Monarchy 41.1%, Republic 31.5%
Catalonia: Monarchy 14.6%, Republic 66.5%
Madrid: Monarchy 46.3%, Republic 32.2%
Valencian Community: Monarchy 37.0%, Republic 32.4%

As you can see, monarchy is highly divisive and the cleavage is both ideological and geographical. Also, Spaniards believe in democracy but not in their institutions. Highly disturbing but unsurprising results.

This is an internet poll and the sample size is 3000. The 40 dB pollster is headed by Belén Barreiro, a prestigious sociologist who once directed the CIS. It usually works for El País



https://es.scribd.com/document/479571924/Informe-monarqui-a-PMI-2020#from_embed


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on October 12, 2020, 05:18:55 AM
Today the conservative paper La Razón releases a NC Report poll that says the opposite of the DYM poll posted earlier. Ayuso landslide!

PP 45 (33.1%)
PSOE 37 (26.9%)
Cs 18/19 (13.9%)
MM 16 (12.1%)
VOX 11 (8.7%)
UP 7 (5.4%)

The right bloc would get almost 55% of the vote and the controversial Ayuso would be strengthened. If I was her, I'd call a snap election now. The question is wether this poll is accurate or it's just as friendly with Isabel Díaz Ayuso as the CIS is friendly with Pedro Sánche<


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Skye on October 12, 2020, 06:05:56 AM
Is a snap election the best tactical choice for Ayuso? There's a chance voting preferences are skewed because of the impact of the pandemic in Madrid. No guarantee how things will look from now until a hypothetical election is held.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on October 12, 2020, 07:49:00 AM
Is a snap election the best tactical choice for Ayuso? There's a chance voting preferences are skewed because of the impact of the pandemic in Madrid. No guarantee how things will look from now until a hypothetical election is held.

I'd call a snap election if the NC Report poll was true, but of course there's a lot of uncertainty and no guarantees of success. The point is that the impact of the coronavirus pandemic comes along with a tough polítical battle, which responds to a deliberate strategy (fingers point to Miguel Angel Rodriguez, a former advisor of Aznar who works for Ayuso). In addition, the telationship between the coalition partners PP and Cs is increasingly strained, partly because of growing chaos and confrontation. It was rumoured that Ayuso was planning to call elections earlier this year, but Pablo Casado stopped her. Ayuso could still move forward in case she suspects Cs is tempted to switch alliances. But a snap election is a hazardous move, not only because of the uncertain electoral result. The PP could also risk the coalition governments in other regions that are more stable: Andalusia, Castilla y León and Murcia. I don't think thay Ayuso has the full support of the PP's nacional leadership rught now, and for sure she has not the support of the other governing regional leaders. On the other hand, my intuition tells me that playing the game of Trump and Bolsonaro benefits VOX and not the PP.

Also, despite the claims of Ayuso, I don't think the central government was willing to intervene in Madrid. On the contrary, it was forced to take control because of the deliberate attitude of Ayuso. The Sanchez government is fully aware that it's lacking the parliamentary support to extend the state of alarm in Madrid, on case the situation does not improve.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Former President tack50 on October 12, 2020, 10:30:01 AM
Today the conservative paper La Razón releases a NC Report poll that says the opposite of the DYM poll posted earlier. Ayuso landslide!

PP 45 (33.1%)
PSOE 37 (26.9%)
Cs 18/19 (13.9%)
MM 16 (12.1%)
VOX 11 (8.7%)
UP 7 (5.4%)

The right bloc would get almost 55% of the vote and the controversial Ayuso would be strengthened. If I was her, I'd call a snap election now. The question is wether this poll is accurate or it's just as friendly with Isabel Díaz Ayuso as the CIS is friendly with Pedro Sánche<

Worth noting Madrid is one of the regions of Spain that, even if it calls a snap election, the new parliament's term will be shortened to whenever the current parliament would expire.

So while Ayuso could call a snap election now, she'd still need to face the voters in 2023. Which is kind of pointless imo but whatever.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: former king Juan Carlos leaves Spain
Post by: Velasco on October 12, 2020, 04:17:15 PM
Worth noting Madrid is one of the regions of Spain that, even if it calls a snap election, the new parliament's term will be shortened to whenever the current parliament would expire.

So while Ayuso could call a snap election now, she'd still need to face the voters in 2023. Which is kind of pointless imo but whatever.

Calling elections would make sense in order to prevent that Cs supports a no confidence motion against Isabel Diaz Ayuso. Ignacio Aguado and Cs are very uncomfortable, but they don't want a snap election and try to appease Ayuso. On the other hand, I don't believe in a PP landslide because I'm not Paco Marhuenda. I think the political climate favors Rocio Monasterio.

I hear the no confidence motion sponsored by VOX against Pedro Sánchez is scheduled on October 21 and 22. PP and Cs won't support it. The far-right party aims to capitalize the fear, unrest and increasing polarization


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Former President tack50 on October 14, 2020, 08:30:55 PM
On some news, the biggest government initiative now seems to be something that should be very relatable to our US posters: Court packing :P

The Sanchez government is preparing a reform of the current mechanism to name part of the "General Council of the Judiciary", which in turn names the justices of the Supreme Court and a part of the Constitutional court.

Basically up until now, based off a 1985 law, naming those justices requires a 3/5 majority. However PP has deliberately deadlocked the negotiations for 2 years now, so that the Council from the Rajoy era, with its conservative majority, can keep naming conservative justices.

The reform is very simple and will basically reduce the required majority from 3/5 to 50%+1, so PP would not be necessary anymore.

https://www.vozpopuli.com/espana/reforma-poder-judicial_0_1400560520.html

Tbh I might be slightly biased here for once. I do think it is kind of worrying but since PP has repeatedly blocked negotiations I understand that the government has no alternative, even if it has to go with a Poland/Hungary style solution. It worries me a bit but I understand why it is being pursued.

I do wonder if the EU will prosecute Spain (in fact some Polish politician openly asked that lol).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Zinneke on October 15, 2020, 01:04:34 AM
Of course the EU will say nothing. The Spanish legal system has been a joke for years and they have said nothing. For the EU the Rule of Law as a concept is the Rule of a certain status quo, roughly what I would describe as ordo-liberal and saving face, with heavy doses of being in the right circles helping your case (which Spain has managed effectively in Brussels). They only care about the Central European countries because it suits certain narratives and it embarrasses the EU Soft Power machine, not because they actually care.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on October 15, 2020, 06:21:25 AM
I don't even understand why the EU should consider prosecuting Spain lol.

Who is that Polish politician?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Former President tack50 on October 15, 2020, 06:40:12 AM
I don't even understand why the EU should consider prosecuting Spain lol.

Who is that Polish politician?

Well the alternative brought up by the opposition is that instead the judiciary should be depoliticized and the Concil of the Judiciary elected by the judges themselves. The problem is that the judges that would do the election are mostly conservatives appointed under Rajoy and who were up for "retention" now but PP has been blocking their renewal.

Indeed not too unlike McConnell blocking the SC justices on the other side of the pond (thankfully the Spanish judiciary is way less politicized than the American one, but it is still not 100% independent from politics)

The thing is that this reform, if passed, would on paper mean that Spain's judiciary would be appointed in a similar-ish manner to those of Poland or Hungary, so that is why they ask if the EU will prosecute Spain.´

Here is the Polish politician in question. He is apparently the "Undersecretary of State of the Polish department of Foreign Affairs", so a very low level job but his tweet got some coverage on right wing Spanish media:



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on October 15, 2020, 06:54:23 AM
I don't even understand why the EU should consider prosecuting Spain lol.

Who is that Polish politician?

Well the alternative brought up by the opposition is that instead the judiciary should be depoliticized and the Concil of the Judiciary elected by the judges themselves. The problem is that the judges that would do the election are mostly conservatives appointed under Rajoy and who were up for "retention" now but PP has been blocking their renewal.

Indeed not too unlike McConnell blocking the SC justices on the other side of the pond (thankfully the Spanish judiciary is way less politicized than the American one, but it is still not 100% independent from politics)

The thing is that this reform, if passed, would on paper mean that Spain's judiciary would be appointed in a similar-ish manner to those of Poland or Hungary, so that is why they ask if the EU will prosecute Spain.

Somehow I have the feeling that the biggest democratic problem in Poland (and especially in Hungary) is not how they choose judges.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Velasco on October 15, 2020, 10:41:41 AM
The reform proposed by the government is a terrible idea, but the corporativist solution is equally bad. In the end the main culprit is the PP, which is breaching the Constitución in delaying the replacement if the council members for spurious motivations. However, the government is going to make a big mistake going forward with this proposal .

Spain is by no means comparable to Turkey, Poland or Hungary. That's a nonsense. It's true that most of the members of the judiciary are conservative and there are some ideologybiased elements that have declared war on the government. However, it's worth noting that there are judges regarded conservative that refuse to engage in political wars and try to act with the professionaljty and impartiality they are supposed to have.

Yesterday the Supreme Court confirmed convictions in Gürtel graft case

https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2020-10-14/spains-supreme-court-confirms-convictions-in-gurtel-graft-case.html

Quote
confirmed 29 convictions handed down in 2018 against leading members of Gürtel, a corrupt bribes-for-contracts network that operated across six Spanish regions between 1999 and 2005.

Justices have also backed the national High Court (Audiencia Nacional)'s decision declaring the Popular Party (PP) civilly liable in connection with the case, and telling it to return €245,000 obtained through unlawful channels.  

The news is not updated on this point

Quote
 But the Supreme Court has also found that the Audiencia Nacional’s wording was “excessive” when it repeatedly mentioned the PP’s “caja B,” a reference to a parallel accounting system allegedly maintained by the conservative party for years.  

Later the Supreme Court released a statement correcting that. The rule does not find "rxcessive" the mebtiobs to the "cala B" (parallel accounting). It' s in ny the separate opinión if one if the justices. However, that apparent mistake was?enough for the PP to launch a counter atrack, claining that the motion if no confidence ahainstMariano Rajoy was based on a false premise. Even Rajoy broke his silence supporting that claim. But leaving aside a separate vote, the rule if Supreme Court does not say a word about the aforementioned "caja B". Ny understanding is that issue is being investigated in a separate case

Ayuso Wars. Lamentable spectacle in Congress; stifling political atmosphere, in the words of Economy minister Nadia Calviño. PP andandVox Vox, alongside the incredible Madrid premier, accuse the government of authoritarianism. If doesn't matter if Paris, Berlín or whatever EU capital implement restrictions with less cases than Madrid.

Health minister Salvador Illa said yesterday the situarlon In the Spain's capital is "worrying, unstable and fragile"

 https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-10-15/spanish-health-minister-on-pandemic-the-situation-is-worrying-unstable-and-fragile.html

Quote

Public health is the only thing that is prompting the Spanish government to act, and that is why measures must be taken to avoid new coronavirus infections and flatten the curve. That was the argument cited by the health minister, Salvador Illa, during a session in Spain’s lower house of parliament today to justify the declaration on Friday of a state of alarm in Madrid, despite the fierce opposition of the regional government there to such a move.

Illa was required by the Constitution to appear in the Congress of Deputies in order to explain the decision taken by the coalition government, which is headed up by the Socialist Party (PSOE) and supported by junior partner Unidas Podemos. There was no vote required on the state of alarm in Congress today, but the support of deputies will be needed should the government opt to extend it beyond this initial two-week period (...)







Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: mileslunn on October 15, 2020, 12:30:25 PM
Any chance that the budget fails and another election gets triggered (not that it would solve anything though)?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: BigSerg on October 15, 2020, 12:41:15 PM
I don't even understand why the EU should consider prosecuting Spain lol.

Who is that Polish politician?

Well the alternative brought up by the opposition is that instead the judiciary should be depoliticized and the Concil of the Judiciary elected by the judges themselves. The problem is that the judges that would do the election are mostly conservatives appointed under Rajoy and who were up for "retention" now but PP has been blocking their renewal.

Indeed not too unlike McConnell blocking the SC justices on the other side of the pond (thankfully the Spanish judiciary is way less politicized than the American one, but it is still not 100% independent from politics)

The thing is that this reform, if passed, would on paper mean that Spain's judiciary would be appointed in a similar-ish manner to those of Poland or Hungary, so that is why they ask if the EU will prosecute Spain.´

Here is the Polish politician in question. He is apparently the "Undersecretary of State of the Polish department of Foreign Affairs", so a very low level job but his tweet got some coverage on right wing Spanish media:



The situation is not at all comparable to the U.S. Supreme Court. "Progressive judges" mostly support the appointments of conservatives (PP).

https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20181112/452888446687/pp-y-psoe-pactan-un-cgpj-de-mayoria-progresista-presidido-por-manuel-marchena.html

https://www.eldiario.es/politica/division-bloque-progresista-permitira-judicial-funciones-aprobar-nombramientos-supremo_1_6255845.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Former President tack50 on October 15, 2020, 12:46:18 PM
The situation is not at all comparable to the U.S. Supreme Court. "Progressive judges" mostly support the appointments of conservatives (PP).

2018: "PSOE has guaranteed a progressive majority within the judiciary, as confirmed by sources of the Government and PP. The Socialists and their partners in Podemos will have 11 members. The popular ones, only nine"


https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20181112/452888446687/pp-y-psoe-pactan-un-cgpj-de-mayoria-progresista-presidido-por-manuel-marchena.html

https://www.eldiario.es/politica/division-bloque-progresista-permitira-judicial-funciones-aprobar-nombramientos-supremo_1_6255845.html

Actually that deal was eventually broken? In fact precisely because PP broke the deals and negotiations (both in 2018 and this summer) the government was forced to do this. And it was PP who broke it

https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20181120/pp-da-roto-pacto-para-renovar-cgpj/1840963.shtml



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: BigSerg on October 15, 2020, 12:50:31 PM
The situation is not at all comparable to the U.S. Supreme Court. "Progressive judges" mostly support the appointments of conservatives (PP).

2018: "PSOE has guaranteed a progressive majority within the judiciary, as confirmed by sources of the Government and PP. The Socialists and their partners in Podemos will have 11 members. The popular ones, only nine"

https://www.eldiario.es/politica/division-bloque-progresista-permitira-judicial-funciones-aprobar-nombramientos-supremo_1_6255845.html
https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20181112/452888446687/pp-y-psoe-pactan-un-cgpj-de-mayoria-progresista-presidido-por-manuel-marchena.html


Actually that deal was eventually broken? In fact precisely because PP broke the deals and negotiations (both in 2018 and this summer) the government was forced to do this. And it was PP who broke it

https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20181120/pp-da-roto-pacto-para-renovar-cgpj/1840963.shtml



Well, now explain to me how Spain's situation is comparable to that of the United States. The same "progressive judges" are supporting conservative appointments.

"Two progressive members will vote blank to consider that there should be no appointments in this interim situation, while the rest are willing to agree with the conservative majority, who do not have enough votes to place their candidates"

https://www.eldiario.es/politica/division-bloque-progresista-permitira-judicial-funciones-aprobar-nombramientos-supremo_1_6255845.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Former President tack50 on October 15, 2020, 12:56:46 PM
The situation is not at all comparable to the U.S. Supreme Court. "Progressive judges" mostly support the appointments of conservatives (PP).

2018: "PSOE has guaranteed a progressive majority within the judiciary, as confirmed by sources of the Government and PP. The Socialists and their partners in Podemos will have 11 members. The popular ones, only nine"

https://www.eldiario.es/politica/division-bloque-progresista-permitira-judicial-funciones-aprobar-nombramientos-supremo_1_6255845.html
https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20181112/452888446687/pp-y-psoe-pactan-un-cgpj-de-mayoria-progresista-presidido-por-manuel-marchena.html


Actually that deal was eventually broken? In fact precisely because PP broke the deals and negotiations (both in 2018 and this summer) the government was forced to do this. And it was PP who broke it

https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20181120/pp-da-roto-pacto-para-renovar-cgpj/1840963.shtml



Well, now explain to me how Spain's situation is comparable to that of the United States. The same "progressive judges" are supporting conservative appointments.

"Two progressive members will vote blank to consider that there should be no appointments in this interim situation, while the rest are willing to agree with the conservative majority, who do not have enough votes to place their candidates"

https://www.eldiario.es/politica/division-bloque-progresista-permitira-judicial-funciones-aprobar-nombramientos-supremo_1_6255845.html


Oh thankfully our judiciary still has some sense of non-partisanship and fairness, even if it is quickly diminishing in an escalating arms race.

I was drawing the comparison because it is still accurate, even if thankfully our judiciary is way less partisan.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: BigSerg on October 16, 2020, 08:16:20 AM


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Velasco on October 16, 2020, 09:51:09 AM
Pedro Sánchez warned this morning from Brussrls that he will go forward with the judicial reform plans, unless the PP accepts to negotiate the renewal of the General Council

 https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2020-10-16/spain-defends-its-judicial-reform-plans-despite-warning-from-brussels.html

Quote
 
The European Commission has warned Spain against its plan to reform the way appointments are made to its judicial regulatory body, the General Council of the Judiciary (CGPJ). Brussels says the move could endanger judicial independence and exacerbate the impression that the Spanish judiciary may be “vulnerable to politicization.”

The Spanish government has not officially responded, but in private it has said that the plan will not be altered. Sources at La Moncloa, the seat of government, said that Brussels has not understood the reform adequately, and that the Spanish executive will clarify how it wants to change the way members are elected to the body that oversees the independence of judges.

 The European Union has long been urging Spain to renew the membership of the CGJP, where appointments have been on hold since 2018 due to to insufficient parliamentary support. Under current legislation, appointments require a qualified majority of three-fifths of lawmakers in both chambers of parliament.

The reform would maintain the need for a three-fifths majority, but add the possibility of a second round of voting 48 hours later that would only require an absolute majority. In the 350-seat Congress, this would mean 176 affirmative votes in the second round instead of 210 required in the first.

The budget plan submitted by the Spanish government forecasts a 33 4 billion increase in revenues, including a 6 8 billion increase in taxt revenues

 https://english.elpais.com/economy_and_business/2020-10-16/spanish-government-planning-to-increase-taxes-by-6-billion-in-2021.html

Quote
After the devastating effects that the coronavirus crisis has had on the Spanish economy, the government is predicting that there will soon be light at the end of the tunnel. According to a budget plan sent to Brussels on Thursday, public revenues will rise by €33.4 billion in 2021 thanks to a sharp rebound in gross domestic product that is forecast, and the introduction of new fiscal measures including a hike on sales tax of sugary drinks and a “plastic tax.”

The pandemic has prompted the Spanish government – a coalition of the Socialist Party (PSOE) and junior partner Unidas Podemos – to put the “extensive fiscal reforms” it had planned on hold. But there will be tax changes next year, as Finance Minister María Jesús Montero had already announced. According to the plan sent to Brussels on Thursday, these will boost revenues by €6.8 billion in 2021 and €2.3 billion in 2022. Not including a new law combatting tax fraud, which is expected to bring in around €830 million a year, revenues will be boosted by around €6 billion in 2021 and €8.4 billion over the two years combined.  

Some experts deem the forecast too optimistic. The deails of the tax changes have not been disclosed yet

On the other hand, there are clouds in the horizon concerning blocks or delays to the EU reconstruction funds. The proposed reform to unblock the renewal of the General Council of the Judiciary comes in a bad moment, as it gives ammunition to the Polish and Hungarian governments in their opposition to be closely scrutinized.

The PP has been campaigning in Brussels against the Spanish government, while refuses to renew the Council and voted against a resolution of the EU parliament in support of the threatened independence of the judiciary in Poland


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Velasco on October 21, 2020, 04:38:13 AM
Today we'll have a mud shower.

What you need to know about the Vox's motion of no confidence

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-10-21/voxs-motion-of-no-confidence-against-the-government-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-two-day-debate.html

Quote
No one knows how far the coronavirus pandemic will spread, and equally no one knows just how high the political tension will rise in Spain. With talk this week of a possible curfew in a bid to curb infection rates, today will see the Congress of Deputies immersed in its everyday battles, albeit dressed up with the solemnity of an extraordinary debate: a motion of no confidence tabled against the prime minister, the fifth in Spain’s democratic history.

After months of fomenting protests and animosity in the streets, far-right party Vox – currently the third-biggest group in Spain’s lower house of parliament – this morning began a debate that will last two days, and will see its deputies take to the podium to proclaim that the group is an alternative to the current government, a coalition of the Socialist Party (PSOE) and junior partner Unidas Podemos. Vox and its leader, Santiago Abascal, are viewing their motion of no confidence as a springboard, but the effects could be contradictory: the vote, which is almost certainly guaranteed to fail due to a lack of support among deputies, is likely to divide the opposition and push the government and its partners – the coalition lacks a working majority in Congress – to put aside their differences.  

Yesterday we had our dose of garbage in parliament with the PP focused on attacking Pablo Iglesias and Irene Montero, the Podemos leading couple. The most shameful to hear was a PP female senator asking Equality minister Irene Montero, "from one woman to another", if she was ashamed to share her bed with an alleged male chauvinist (Pablo Iglesias). Montero replied that she shares her bed with whom she wants, because thankfully she's in a position to do so. She added that, due to PP's intolerance and discriminatory policies, many women and non-heterosexuals are not allowed to have a lifetime project.

Add these vicious attacks in parliament with the harassment that Iglesias and Montero have been suffering at their home by far-right activists. When the expression of ideological differences crosses the red line and turns into personal attacks, invasion of privacy and physical bullying, something is going wrong with our democracy.

Right now the rightwing opposition is a serious national problem. On the other hand, this motion of no confidence is actually a dramatization of the contest for the leadership of the Spanish Right. No matter that we are amidst a huge national crisis, we are doomed to suffer another lamentable spectacle with loads of garbage


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: CumbrianLefty on October 21, 2020, 08:54:54 AM
17% for Vox in that poll - thought they were on a downward trend not so long ago?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Velasco on October 21, 2020, 09:44:05 AM
17% for Vox in that poll - thought they were on a downward trend not so long ago?

They have reversed the trend in the last months, proving that the climate of polarization favors the extremes. I'd say that the PP is following a wrong strategy, but it' s clear that Pablo Casado and Isabel Diaz Ayuso prefer Donald Trump and Jair Bolsonaro to Angela Merkel


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Velasco on October 21, 2020, 11:14:22 AM
By the moment, the parliamentary debate is extremely boring. Santiago Abascal is totally devoid of rhetoric brilliance and does not have a single original idea. Journalists following the whole speech note that Abascal hasn't been interrupted at all during his initial exposition, full of abhorrent statements against immigrants, climate scepticism and the usual hateful things you can hear to Trump or Bolsonaro. This is temarkable, because interruptions from rightwing benches are usual in parliamentary debates in Spain. Errejón went viral recently asking them to keep quite, while saying they haven't been taught good manners in their private schools. The hardest thing against Abascal I heard so far is that the New Canaries deputy called him "fascist". Abascal replied to the EH Bildu spokeswoman reading the names of the 800+ ETA victims. Snooze Fest

Brilliant reply from PNV spokesman Aitor Esteban in 1 minute: "simpleton"


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Velasco on October 21, 2020, 11:35:10 AM
Some tweeter copy-paste







Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Velasco on October 22, 2020, 04:02:15 AM
Finally PP leader Pablo Casado reveals that his party will vote "No" to Santiago Abascal and launches an attack on VOX.

Defensive movement?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Former President tack50 on October 22, 2020, 04:26:17 AM
Finally PP leader Pablo Casado reveals that his party will vote "No" to Santiago Abascal and launches an attack on VOX.

Defensive movement?

Listening to it, Casado's speech sounds very very moderate, especially compared to what we are used to.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Velasco on October 22, 2020, 05:03:28 AM
Now Casado is claiming that Sánchez is a radical and his party represents moderation and common sense. He also said that Spain does not deserve a loony like Santiago Abascal and his rants against Europe and the "Chinese virus"

Moderation is always welcomed, even though it's inconsistent with Casado's previous speeches

Pablo Iglesias on stage


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Velasco on October 22, 2020, 07:08:33 AM
Reactions to Casado's speech

Pedro Sánchez offers to stop the application of the controversial judicial reform, while he expects that Casado accepts for once to negotiate the renewal of the General Council of the Judiciary and other institutions

Vox announces a stop in the budget negotiation with the Andalusian government, warning that the PP can't govern the Spain's nist populated region without the far-right



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Velasco on October 22, 2020, 07:12:48 AM
It's all over

The motion fails with the only support of the 52 Vox deputies


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Velasco on October 22, 2020, 08:51:33 AM
The speech of Pablo Casado this morning was important, so here's a video for those who understand Spanish




And the reply from Pablo Iglesias






Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: CumbrianLefty on October 22, 2020, 08:55:05 AM
It's all over

The motion fails with the only support of the 52 Vox deputies

As a certain "friend" of theirs might say - SAD!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Velasco on October 22, 2020, 08:57:02 AM
It's all over

The motion fails with the only support of the 52 Vox deputies

As a certain "friend" of theirs might say - SAD!

Forgot to say there were 298 votes against and no abstentions


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian. on October 22, 2020, 09:16:11 AM
You come at the king, you best not miss. Or, you know, whatever.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Velasco on October 22, 2020, 10:39:24 AM
Velasco sinceramente pienso que deberías guardarte tus "opiniones" infundadas, comprendo que es fácil decir cosas obviamente falsas ya que nadie aquí tiene conocimiento de España, además de otros 2 usuarios izquierdistas. Pero me preguntó si tú entusiasmo contra el acoso se aplicaba contra lo vivido por Cifuentes y Rita Barbera (¡Fue a una peluquería madre de dios!), los llamados "escraches" democráticos. Y sobre el "supuesto muchísimo" ya ni hablar, por fortuna muchos recordamos el "la azotaria hasta que sangrase".

Es fácil decir lo que quieras cuando nadie te replica nada pero para alguien que tiene el suficiente conocimiento, simplemente suenas como un hipócrita (Y si, el mensaje está en español porque es dirigido a ti y si realmente eres español, lo comprenderás sin problema).

Lo de "crisis nacional" sobra, en especial considerando los ataques de podemos a Rajoy con la pandemia de Ébola o los del Psoe a Aznar en los atentados del 11 de marzo.

No te confundas y creas que me falta capacidad para discutir con personas ideológicamente contrarias, y además sin recurrir al insulto. Cualquiera que visite las redes sociales y lea comentarios de gente de extrema derecha sabe cómo está el patio y cuál es el clima imperante. La gente de izquierdas o independentista que insulta o cae en provocacionesprovocaciones tampoco me inspira demasiado, a decir verdad

Nadie me verá nunca apoyar los "escraches" (una práctica importada de Argentina, por cierto) pero, sinceramente, los ejemplos que mencionas son caricias de monja comparados con el acoso que sufren actualmente Pablo Iglesias e Irene Montero por parte de la extrema derecha. Es intolerable que tengan que aguantar continuamente insultos, amenazas e improperios y que ni siquiera puedan disfrutar de unos días de vacaciones por el odio ideológico de los herederos de Franco. De la misma forma, las alusiones personales de la senadora del PP son repugnantes. Tanto Iglesias como Montero, que en algunos aspectos no son santos de mi devoción, están demostrando un aguante y una contención admirables ante la avalancha de odio.

Echa un vistazo a las intervenciones de Casado e iglesias está mañana y luego vuelve al discurso simplón, incoherente y lleno de odio de Santiago Abascal. Escucha el silencio respetuoso de la bancada de la izquierda cuando hablan Casado y Abascal, a pesar de los insultos. Vuelve después a la intervención de Iglesias y escucha cómo patalean algunos diputados de derechas. El contraste avergonzaria a cualquiera con un mínimo de honestidad intelectual. Y es que ya lo dice Íñigo Errejón, a algunos señoritos de Vox y del PP no les enseñaron modales en sus exclusivos colegios de pago.

No sé cómo se puede poner en duda que atravesamos una crisis global sin precedentes, que está afectando a este país de una forma más intensa que a otros. Lo que se necesita en momentos como estos es unidad de acción y no campañas de desestabilización irresponsables que agitan el odio y las bajas pasiones. Espero que el revolcón parlamentario de hoy tenga consecuencias y cruzo los dedos esperando que noviembre traiga buenas noticias de Estados Unidos

Remember that English is the language of this forum, in case you want to follow this discussion. Some people here is fluent in Spanish or have reading comprehension, but most forum members don't know what are we talking about


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Velasco on October 22, 2020, 11:37:41 AM
"No Step Backward. The Last Barrier. Vox"



Sorry but this poster has an aged flavor. Spain in Black and White, Civil War, Franco. It scares me


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Skye on October 22, 2020, 11:58:36 AM
Why do they post stuff that comes across like it was made by edgy 15 year-olds.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: PSOL on October 22, 2020, 12:09:06 PM
Why do they post stuff that comes across like it was made by edgy 15 year-olds.
Well they need to appeal to the younger demographic somehow.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Leading Political Consultant Ma Anand Sheela on October 22, 2020, 02:09:34 PM
Why do they post stuff that comes across like it was made by edgy 15 year-olds.
They are political cosplayers.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Former President tack50 on October 22, 2020, 02:30:36 PM
Why do they post stuff that comes across like it was made by edgy 15 year-olds.
Well they need to appeal to the younger demographic somehow.

Something that goes rather underrated is that Vox is actually quite weak among old people. They seem to peak among the 30-44 demographic.

However Vox also has an extremely strong vote among young men; and in fact Vox won a narrow plurality among said demographic.

I never know how accurate this is and I tend to post it more often than I should tbh, but here is the graph of vote split by age and gender:

()

Of course, with Vox the big story is actually the huge gender split and not the age split, but a significant age split still exists.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Velasco on October 22, 2020, 02:49:23 PM
Santiago Abascal said yesterday that "thousands upon thousands" of women and homosexuals support Vox and not the left. Literally it's true that Vox has thousands of female voters, but all post-election analyses say that Vox is the party with a lowest proportion of female vote (30% or even less). It was somewhat hilarious to see the comments of Vox supporters over that sentence. The question is, what's the relative value of "thousands upon thousands" compared to the millions who are against Vox


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: BigSerg on October 22, 2020, 02:54:55 PM

https://www.infobae.com/america/agencias/2020/10/22/espana-suma-21000-casos-nuevos-de-coronavirus-y-155-muertos/

Navarra
La Rioja
Aragón   

All these autonomous communities are controlled by the PSOE and currently have a much worse situation than Madrid (especially Navarra).

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on October 22, 2020, 03:06:16 PM
Why do they post stuff that comes across like it was made by edgy 15 year-olds.
Well they need to appeal to the younger demographic somehow.

Something that goes rather underrated is that Vox is actually quite weak among old people. They seem to peak among the 30-44 demographic.

However Vox also has an extremely strong vote among young men; and in fact Vox won a narrow plurality among said demographic.

I never know how accurate this is and I tend to post it more often than I should tbh, but here is the graph of vote split by age and gender:

https://s3.eestatic.com/2019/11/16/actualidad/Actualidad_444967936_138163750_1024x576.jpg

Of course, with Vox the big story is actually the huge gender split and not the age split, but a significant age split still exists.

As someone who comes from another Southern European country, gotta say that this graphic is decidedly unsurprising. By the way, is there data on party preference by religious attendance?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: BigSerg on October 22, 2020, 03:17:35 PM
Why do they post stuff that comes across like it was made by edgy 15 year-olds.
Well they need to appeal to the younger demographic somehow.

Something that goes rather underrated is that Vox is actually quite weak among old people. They seem to peak among the 30-44 demographic.

However Vox also has an extremely strong vote among young men; and in fact Vox won a narrow plurality among said demographic.

I never know how accurate this is and I tend to post it more often than I should tbh, but here is the graph of vote split by age and gender:

https://s3.eestatic.com/2019/11/16/actualidad/Actualidad_444967936_138163750_1024x576.jpg

Of course, with Vox the big story is actually the huge gender split and not the age split, but a significant age split still exists.

As someone who comes from another Southern European country, gotta say that this graphic is decidedly unsurprising. By the way, is there data on party preference by religious attendance?

()
()

https://elpais.com/politica/2019/04/19/sepa_usted/1555672471_473310.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Former President tack50 on October 22, 2020, 03:27:19 PM
As someone who comes from another Southern European country, gotta say that this graphic is decidedly unsurprising. By the way, is there data on party preference by religious attendance?
Not really, religion is an extremely underrepresented issue on Spanish politics. Still to add to what Sergi said:

With the CIS polls we can get an idea since they have a ton of questions. They are PSOE leaning so the "top line" number will be wrong; but I think the general pattern should still hold.

Anyways, here is the crosstabs chart for the religion question, with people also being asked who they voted for on November 2019; according to the latest CIS poll:

Not sure if the image will display properly

()

Options from top to bottom:
>Practising Catholic
>Non-Practising Catholic
>Another Religion
>Agnostic
>Indifferent/Non-believer
>Atheist
>Refuse to Answer

Excluding the parties with super small sample sizes, my conclusions would be:

  • PSOE seems fairly representative of the Spanish population at large
  • PP extremely overperforming among religious Catholics
  • Vox slightly overperforms among Non-practising Catholics and slightly underperforms among non-religious people
  • UP extremely overperforms among agnostics and atheists and underperforms among all Catholics
  • Cs overperforms by a lot among Non-practising Catholics, and slightly underperforms among atheists (but interestingly not the other 2 non-religious categories)

So for the question you are going to ask, devout Catholics are a titanium PP demographic :P

Then again that's definitely at least partially a function of old people being extremely heavily for the 2 traditional parties (PSOE and PP).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Former President tack50 on October 22, 2020, 03:34:13 PM
Santiago Abascal said yesterday that "thousands upon thousands" of women and homosexuals support Vox and not the left. Literally it's true that Vox has thousands of female voters, but all post-election analyses say that Vox is the party with a lowest proportion of female vote (30% or even less). It was somewhat hilarious to see the comments of Vox supporters over that sentence. The question is, what's the relative value of "thousands upon thousands" compared to the millions who are against Vox

To be fair, for all their talk about feminism and what not, Podemos is the party with the 2nd lowest percentage of female voters.

Honestly for all the talk about young women being super left wing and what not (whether in Spain or abroad); I honestly just think that men are more "extremist" and women are more moderate in their political leanings; whether on the left or on the right.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: BigSerg on October 22, 2020, 03:39:38 PM
As someone who comes from another Southern European country, gotta say that this graphic is decidedly unsurprising. By the way, is there data on party preference by religious attendance?
Not really, religion is an extremely underrepresented issue on Spanish politics. Still to add to what Sergi said:

With the CIS polls we can get an idea since they have a ton of questions. They are PSOE leaning so the "top line" number will be wrong; but I think the general pattern should still hold.

Anyways, here is the crosstabs chart for the religion question, with people also being asked who they voted for on November 2019; according to the latest CIS poll:

Not sure if the image will display properly

()

Options from top to bottom:
>Practising Catholic
>Non-Practising Catholic
>Another Religion
>Agnostic
>Indifferent/Non-believer
>Atheist
>Refuse to Answer

Excluding the parties with super small sample sizes, my conclusions would be:

  • PSOE seems fairly representative of the Spanish population at large
  • PP extremely overperforming among religious Catholics
  • Vox slightly overperforms among Non-practising Catholics and slightly underperforms among non-religious people
  • UP extremely overperforms among agnostics and atheists and underperforms among all Catholics
  • Cs overperforms by a lot among Non-practising Catholics, and slightly underperforms among atheists (but interestingly not the other 2 non-religious categories)

So for the question you are going to ask, devout Catholics are a titanium PP demographic :P

Then again that's definitely at least partially a function of old people being extremely heavily for the 2 traditional parties (PSOE and PP).

"Catholic voters do not decide by faith, Catholic voters say they decide at the ballot box on the economic proposals of the parties (74.8%), social policies (59%), the unity of Spain (56.8%) or family policies (55.7%)".


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on October 22, 2020, 03:46:17 PM
Excluding the parties with super small sample sizes, my conclusions would be:

  • PSOE seems fairly representative of the Spanish population at large
  • PP extremely overperforming among religious Catholics
  • Vox slightly overperforms among Non-practising Catholics and slightly underperforms among non-religious people
  • UP extremely overperforms among agnostics and atheists and underperforms among all Catholics
  • Cs overperforms by a lot among Non-practising Catholics, and slightly underperforms among atheists (but interestingly not the other 2 non-religious categories)

So for the question you are going to ask, devout Catholics are a titanium PP demographic :P

Then again that's definitely at least partially a function of old people being extremely heavily for the 2 traditional parties (PSOE and PP).

I was mainly trying to see if my priors ("practicing Catholics" being Titanium Major Parties with a heavy edge for PP and "non-practicing Catholics" being Vox's best group) were correct and they seem to have been confimed.

I was also hoping for data where religious attendance groups are broken by party and not vice versa (i.e. data like what 7sergi9 posted)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Skye on October 22, 2020, 04:49:45 PM
Why do they post stuff that comes across like it was made by edgy 15 year-olds.
Well they need to appeal to the younger demographic somehow.

Something that goes rather underrated is that Vox is actually quite weak among old people. They seem to peak among the 30-44 demographic.

However Vox also has an extremely strong vote among young men; and in fact Vox won a narrow plurality among said demographic.

I never know how accurate this is and I tend to post it more often than I should tbh, but here is the graph of vote split by age and gender:

()

Of course, with Vox the big story is actually the huge gender split and not the age split, but a significant age split still exists.

Am I missing something here? All of the parties except the PSOE have a lower % of the vote than what they obtained.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Former President tack50 on October 22, 2020, 04:57:30 PM
Why do they post stuff that comes across like it was made by edgy 15 year-olds.
Well they need to appeal to the younger demographic somehow.

Something that goes rather underrated is that Vox is actually quite weak among old people. They seem to peak among the 30-44 demographic.

However Vox also has an extremely strong vote among young men; and in fact Vox won a narrow plurality among said demographic.

I never know how accurate this is and I tend to post it more often than I should tbh, but here is the graph of vote split by age and gender:

()

Of course, with Vox the big story is actually the huge gender split and not the age split, but a significant age split still exists.

Am I missing something here? All of the parties except the PSOE have a lower % of the vote than what they obtained.

I have absolutely no idea why El Español put the data like that.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Velasco on October 22, 2020, 06:43:51 PM
Santiago Abascal said yesterday that "thousands upon thousands" of women and homosexuals support Vox and not the left. Literally it's true that Vox has thousands of female voters, but all post-election analyses say that Vox is the party with a lowest proportion of female vote (30% or even less). It was somewhat hilarious to see the comments of Vox supporters over that sentence. The question is, what's the relative value of "thousands upon thousands" compared to the millions who are against Vox

To be fair, for all their talk about feminism and what not, Podemos is the party with the 2nd lowest percentage of female voters.

Honestly for all the talk about young women being super left wing and what not (whether in Spain or abroad); I honestly just think that men are more "extremist" and women are more moderate in their political leanings; whether on the left or on the right.

I know that Podenios has the second lowest percentage of female vote (it's a bit higher among young women anyway). Women as a whole support traditional parties (PP and PSOE) in a higher degree than men. The PSOE usually appears as the first party in all age groups, except among the women over 65 where the PP is highly competitive.

The PSOE is a party with a feminst tradition and feminist stances anyway. Actually there's a competition between PSOE and UP for the hegemony in the feminist movement. It was not easy for the Deputy PM Carmen Calvo to grant the Equality portfolio to Irene Montero. Both women belong to different branches of the feminist movement and their views are not neccessarily the same. Let's say that Calvo is more a 'traditional' feminist and Montero embraces 'intersectionalism'


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Velasco on October 23, 2020, 05:55:48 AM
Motion of no confidence fails; in a surprise move, Casado launches a scathing attack on Vox

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-10-22/voxs-motion-of-no-confidence-fails-securing-only-the-votes-of-its-own-deputies.html

Quote
 At the end of a two-day debate, the motion of no-confidence tabled by far-right party Vox failed on Thursday, as was expected. The group only managed to secure the votes of its own deputies in Congress in its bid to oust Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez from power, with all other parties voting against the initiative. A total of 350 votes were cast, with 52 in favor and 298 against.

Party leader Santiago Abascal, who was the candidate to replace Sánchez, thus obtained the worst result ever from the five motions of no confidence that have been debated in Spain’s Congress of Deputies since the country returned to democracy at the end of the 1970s.

Given the extremely high political tensions in Spanish politics since the coronavirus pandemic took hold, the debates on Wednesday and Thursday were surprisingly controlled, albeit reflecting extremely deep rifts between the groups in Congress.

The big surprise of today was the much-anticipated appearance of Popular Party (PP) leader Pablo Casado. After two years of trying to keep Vox in check, Casado definitely broke off with the far-right group on Thursday, launching a scathing attack on its proposals and its leader, Santiago Abascal (...)  

Vox leader didn't expect Casado's attack, admitting on stage that he was "touched" and "perplexed". It was particularly hard for Abascal to hear Casado telling the Vox leader that the PP provided him a paid employment (with public funds) for 15 years. There is a lot of irritation at the Vox HQs, but there's little room for reprisals given that voters would never forgive that Vox hands the governments of Andalusia and Madrid to the left (the only way to sack Ayuso is that Cs makes a move; I don't see it). The rhetorical rupture between PP (the 'father') and Vox (the radical scion) won't turn into a political divorce.

It was nice to imagine how would a civilized PP look like anyway. Casado made a good speech and won the combat against Abascal. Iglesias, Sanchez. Esteban (PNV) and others made good interventions as well and the climate was not as poisonous as I was fearing. For once the cordon sanitaire worked in Spain, but I'm not sure at all this is going to set a precedent

(Btw the sentence in the Vox tweet I shared yesterday is apparently a Bruce Lee quote)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: mileslunn on October 23, 2020, 03:44:57 PM
Why do they post stuff that comes across like it was made by edgy 15 year-olds.
Well they need to appeal to the younger demographic somehow.

Something that goes rather underrated is that Vox is actually quite weak among old people. They seem to peak among the 30-44 demographic.

However Vox also has an extremely strong vote among young men; and in fact Vox won a narrow plurality among said demographic.

I never know how accurate this is and I tend to post it more often than I should tbh, but here is the graph of vote split by age and gender:

()

Of course, with Vox the big story is actually the huge gender split and not the age split, but a significant age split still exists.

Am I missing something here? All of the parties except the PSOE have a lower % of the vote than what they obtained.

Not really surprise.  I've found elsewhere, right wing populists tend to do well amongst young males but struggle with young females.  Many young males are angry at poor prospects and right has tapped into this well.  Females tend to express frustration different way.  Also many under 30 are unmarried and if unmarried larger gender gap then when married as influenced by spouse.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: Velasco on October 24, 2020, 11:24:35 AM
CEO poll: Parliament of Catalonia

ERC 35/36 seats (23.4%)
JxCAT 31/32 seats (19.4%)
PSC 24/25 seats (18.0%)
Cs 16/17 seats (12.0%)
ECP 8/9 srats (7.6%)
PP 7/8 seats (6.0%)
CUP 6/7 seats (4.9%)
VOX 4/6 seats (4.5%)

ERC and Junts on the brink of majority eithout the CUP. Pro-independence parties wouldn't cross the 50% threshold (other recent polls say they will)

Spain is on rhe brink of another state of alarm. Eight regions, including Catalonia and Basque Country, called the central government to implement that measure. State of alarm is a tool that allows the regions to restrict mobility. It doesn't imply neccessarily lockdowns. Cases are rising everywhere except in the Canaries

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-10-23/spain-heads-toward-another-state-of-alarm.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Vox motion of no confidence (Oct 21st and 22nd)
Post by: BigSerg on October 24, 2020, 12:38:45 PM
CEO poll: Parliament of Catalonia

ERC 35/36 seats (23.4%)
JxCAT 31/32 seats (19.4%)
PSC 24/25 seats (18.0%)
Cs 16/17 seats (12.0%)
ECP 8/9 srats (7.6%)
PP 7/8 seats (6.0%)
CUP 6/7 seats (4.9%)
VOX 4/6 seats (4.5%)

ERC and Junts on the brink of majority eithout the CUP. Pro-independence parties wouldn't cross the 50% threshold (other recent polls say they will)

Spain is on rhe brink of another state of alarm. Eight regions, including Catalonia and Basque Country, called the central government to implement that measure. State of alarm is a tool that allows the regions to restrict mobility. It doesn't imply neccessarily lockdowns. Cases are rising everywhere except in the Canaries

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-10-23/spain-heads-toward-another-state-of-alarm.html

wow vox+pp = 10.5%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Velasco on October 25, 2020, 12:11:53 PM
It's official: we are under state of alarm again

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-10-25/spanish-prime-minister-approves-new-state-of-alarm-with-plans-to-keep-it-in-place-until-may.html

Quote
The Spanish Cabinet on Sunday morning approved a new national state of alarm for the country, aimed at giving Spain’s regional governments the legal framework they need to limit mobility – in particular nighttime socialising – in a bid to combat the second wave of the coronavirus.

 The government is introducing an obligatory curfew for the entire country from 11pm to 6am, with regional premiers having a margin of one hour to bring forward or back the curfew times. They will not, however, be able to scrap the measure altogether.

Regions will also have the possibility of restricting the entrance to and exit from their territories unless this is for essential reasons such as going to work or to get to the doctor. This would allow regions to close their borders should they have a neighboring territory that is particularly hard hit by the virus. This is an idea that had been floated in the past by the regions that border Madrid, but until now was impossible to implement.

The decree will not see the closure of Spain’s borders, as was the case during the first wave of the pandemic. There are also exceptions, with the Canary Islands – the Spanish region that currently has the best coronavirus data – exempted from the nighttime curfew in a bid to aid the tourism sector. The text also limits social meetings between citizens to six people for the entire country.  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Skye on October 25, 2020, 12:13:34 PM
Just kill me.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Former President tack50 on October 25, 2020, 12:25:59 PM
Nice that my region is the only one that won't have a curfew, though I fear that just means we will have it later.

Still the islands have been doing pretty good so hopefully we won't need it. Ironically I am somewhat worried about tourists coming here since Europe is in horrible shape, there should be tons of controls in place.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Niemeyerite on October 25, 2020, 01:33:05 PM
Nice that my region is the only one that won't have a curfew, though I fear that just means we will have it later.

Still the islands have been doing pretty good so hopefully we won't need it. Ironically I am somewhat worried about tourists coming here since Europe is in horrible shape, there should be tons of controls in place.

Don't be too hopeful. When you start fearing the cases are increasing it's already too late 😂

But at least you don't have a crazy, stupid person in charge like we do here in Madrid. Keep safe!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Former President tack50 on October 25, 2020, 01:50:21 PM
On that note, here is a ranking of the COVID performance by autonomous community. I used the same methodology I used for the countries ranking I did a while back.

Basically, take Cases/100k as a % of the national average and Deaths/100k as a % of the national average; and then average the 2.

So, here it goes. This even divides quite well into tiers! Colours represent the party in power regionally.

Madrid
Madrid: 202%

Very bad
La Rioja: 175%
Castille La Mancha: 175%
Navarra: 165%
Castille-Leon: 163%
Aragon: 163%

Worse than the national average
Basque Country: 121%
Catalonia: 109%

Better than the national average
Extremadura: 77%

Very good
Melilla: 63%
Cantabria: 62%
Murcia: 57%
Balearic Islands: 54%
Valencia: 47%
Andalucia: 47%
Asturias: 46%
Galicia: 45%
Ceuta: 41%

Canary Islands
Canary Islands: 26%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: BigSerg on October 25, 2020, 05:27:50 PM
Lol, it's obviously a smear campaign.


(Spanish public radio and television service)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Estrella on October 25, 2020, 06:06:18 PM
Lol, it's obviously a smear campaign.


(Spanish public radio and television service)


Guess it was just a question of time when Spanish right turns into crazy and stupid quasi-Republicans. They already have the ideological extremism and now also persecution complex. I wonder what comes next.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Former President tack50 on October 25, 2020, 06:14:14 PM
Lol, it's obviously a smear campaign.

https://twitter.com/GirautaOficial/status/1320358681641422848?s=20
(Spanish public radio and television service)


I don't even know what you are trying to say by this. Taking Girauta's tweet at face value; I don't think anyone, not even Vox, would support outright closing down RTVE. I have a hard time imagining even privatizing RTVE; it fulfills several roles that wouldn't be served by private channels.

Even if we restrict ourselves to TV, TVE has channels that aren't replicated elsewhere like 24h (which is still the only 24/7 news station in Spain, bias or not), TDP (niche sports), most content in La 2 or even Clan to an extent (which has a niche in "small" children aged like 3-7; compared to Disney Channel and Boing catering to a slightly older audience of like 7-13 year olds). La 1 is the iffiest one and even it works by puglishing several Spanish TV series and what not (though it has the weakest argument)

Plus, do we really need Atresmedia or Mediaset controlling our TV even more?

As for bias, well, may I remind you that TVE has always been biased towards the party in government. The most infamous right wing bias example is the "ce ce o o" thing during the Aznar years. And of course there were tons of examples during the González and Rajoy eras.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: mileslunn on October 25, 2020, 08:37:23 PM
What are odds budget fails.  I believe sticking points are rent as Podemos want immediate action on that as well as smaller regionalist party but PSOE reluctant.  On tax hikes on high incomes, my understanding is both parties favour it but debate over timing.  PSOE wants to wait until economy recovers and this year limit it to only those over 300,000 Euros (which is largely symbolic as I believe something like 0.1% of Spaniards make over that so not a lot of revenue) while Podemos initially wanted it on every one over 130,000 Euros, but now willing to settle at 200,000 Euros.  Also haven't said if hike will by the full 4 points as promised or a smaller amount.  C's I believe okay with supporting budget but are opposed to tax hikes, but would reluctantly accept on high incomes if cut for middle class.  So what are thoughts on this.  I doubt it triggers an election, but could be delayed I suppose.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: BigSerg on October 26, 2020, 08:30:58 AM
What are odds budget fails.  I believe sticking points are rent as Podemos want immediate action on that as well as smaller regionalist party but PSOE reluctant.  On tax hikes on high incomes, my understanding is both parties favour it but debate over timing.  PSOE wants to wait until economy recovers and this year limit it to only those over 300,000 Euros (which is largely symbolic as I believe something like 0.1% of Spaniards make over that so not a lot of revenue) while Podemos initially wanted it on every one over 130,000 Euros, but now willing to settle at 200,000 Euros.  Also haven't said if hike will by the full 4 points as promised or a smaller amount.  C's I believe okay with supporting budget but are opposed to tax hikes, but would reluctantly accept on high incomes if cut for middle class.  So what are thoughts on this.  I doubt it triggers an election, but could be delayed I suppose.

Mmm, no.

"The president of Cs, Inés Arrimadas, has stated that her party defends policies "very different" from those of Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya (ERC) and EH Bildu and therefore does not believe that the next General Budgets of the State (PGE) can be approved with the votes of these three formations at once"

https://www.europapress.es/nacional/noticia-arrimadas-no-imagina-presupuestos-aprobados-votos-cs-erc-bildu-sanchez-tendra-elegir-20201026114249.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Velasco on October 26, 2020, 12:51:52 PM
Also haven't said if hike will by the full 4 points as promised or a smaller amount.  C's I believe okay with supporting budget but are opposed to tax hikes, but would reluctantly accept on high incomes if cut for middle class.  So what are thoughts on this.  I doubt it triggers an election, but could be delayed I suppose.

Mmm, no.

"The president of Cs, Inés Arrimadas, has stated that her party defends policies "very different" from those of Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya (ERC) and EH Bildu and therefore does not believe that the next General Budgets of the State (PGE) can be approved with the votes of these three formations at once"

https://www.europapress.es/nacional/noticia-arrimadas-no-imagina-presupuestos-aprobados-votos-cs-erc-bildu-sanchez-tendra-elegir-20201026114249.html

ERC spokespersons have stated the same about Cs

The issue is that there are two alternative majorities to pass the budget. Both involve the parties that voted "Yes" to the investiture of Sánchez (PSOE, UP, PNV, MP, assorted regionalists). Given these parties fall short, there are two ways to complete a majority or to pass the budget in a second vote. The first way is that ERC -and incidentally EH Bildu- vote "yes" or abstain. Both ERC and Bildu abstained in the investiture, enabling Sánchez to pass in a second vote. The second way is that Cs reaches an agreement with the socialists and supports the budget. Additionally the government could count with four additional votes from the PDeCAT deputies (split from JxCAT), which are open to negotiate with Sánchez (this move alongside the Vox's motion might favor ERC's support)

The different combinations give the government more margin for manoeuvre. It looks rather impossible an agreement involving Cs alongside ERC and Bildu, though

The government will approve the budget draft tomorrow in a cabinet meeting


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: mileslunn on October 26, 2020, 03:44:25 PM
I believe rent and raise in taxes on high incomes is the dispute.  PSOE favours both but believes now is not time and wants to postpone while Podemos wants them now.  I believe on high incomes, PSOE is open to raising them, but only on those over 300,000 Euros, not 130,000 as originally planned or 200,000 Euros as Podemos wants.  That being said so few make over 300,000 Euros largely symbolic so basically a few to symbolically give Podemos their desire to tax rich more but also ensure it has limited impact. 

Also most in high incomes usually speak a foreign language and due to free mobility in EU can just easily re-locate.  Although in Madrid where the financial sector is, their top rates are quite low compared to most of Western Europe and even after hike will only be in line with Germany, still below neighbouring Portugal and France.  Some autonomous states like Catalonia a bit higher, but my understanding is even after hikes, all will still be below both Portugal and France, but some of the higher ones well above Italy and Germany. 

For rents not an expert on that, but I thought real estate in Spain was quite cheap, at least compared to elsewhere in Europe.  A big reason many British retirees buy property there.  Still this seems an issue in a lot of large cities, especially for millennials.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Velasco on October 27, 2020, 07:35:50 AM
Spain planning tax hikes for highest earners as part of expansive budget

https://english.elpais.com/economy_and_business/2020-10-27/spain-planning-tax-hikes-for-highest-earners-as-part-of-expansive-budget.html

Quote
 Spain’s governing coalition partners have agreed on a set of tax hikes for high-income individuals and corporations that will affect a small number of taxpayers but which is meant to carry political and symbolic value.

The extra revenue is meant to help fund an ultra-expansive budget to lift Spain out of a deep crisis caused by the coronavirus pandemic, with a special focus on shoring up the healthcare system. The budget plan contains a record public investment of nearly €239.8 billion.

After reaching their own internal deal, the partners in the minority government, led by the Socialist Party (PSOE) and the leftist Unidas Podemos, must now seek wider congressional support for their blueprint.

“This is a progressive budget; it is exceptional due to the situation and because of the amount of public investment involved,” said Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez of the PSOE. “The first goal is to rebuild what the crisis took away from us due to the pandemic. The second is to modernize our productive model. And the third is to shore up our welfare state.” (...)  

PSOE and UP have also agreed measures to limit rent prices, as well as measures to fix the problems in the implementation of the Minimum Living  Income (IMV in Spanish).  Very few applicants have received the IMV so far due to bureaucratic problems, which reveal that it's neccessary a public administration reform involving computerization and more funds. New taxes on sugary drinks were announced weeks ago...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: mileslunn on October 27, 2020, 11:16:16 AM
Looks like on tax hike, smaller than initial plan, but my understanding is PSOE wants to postpone tax hikes until economy recovers so if I am not mistaken isn't tax hike on high earners supposed to be larger once economy recovers and this was more just symbolic to get Podemos on side?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Velasco on October 27, 2020, 01:19:15 PM
Looks like on tax hike, smaller than initial plan, but my understanding is PSOE wants to postpone tax hikes until economy recovers so if I am not mistaken isn't tax hike on high earners supposed to be larger once economy recovers and this was more just symbolic to get Podemos on side?

Possibly. It's obvious that PSOE and UP had differences and negotiated until they found a common ground. But the parties are not homogeneous blocks and there are differences between cabinet members from the 'socialist side' of the governmebt (PSOE members and independents). Economy and Finance ministers (Nadia Calviño and María Jesús Montero) tend to be more cautious and reluctant with tax hikes and expansive policies, while other cabinet members are sometimes closer to their colleagues from the UP side.

At first sight the policies agreed in the budget plan make less posible a deal with Cs. Even though there's an obvious hostility between Cs and UP, both Pedro Sánchez and Inés Arrimadas have a tactic and strategic interest to leave the door open for negotiations. ERC would be a more fitting option, but there's a political quagmire that complicates everything. Anyway signals point to a relative deescalation of conflicts and political tension at this stage of the pandemic. We'll see


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Former President tack50 on October 27, 2020, 01:53:49 PM
I am personally very pessimistic at a deal with ERC, considering the Catalan elections are just around the corner and what not.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: BigSerg on November 03, 2020, 05:18:10 PM


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 04, 2020, 06:51:48 AM
Haha, take that Greece! :P


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: It's Perro Sanxe wot won it on November 13, 2020, 02:41:14 PM
The Government easily won a vote to start the process of passing the 2021 budget, gaining the backing of both C’s and the left-wing nationalists (ERC and Bildu), though this simultaneous support is almost certainly not going to repeat itself in the final vote (which will probably take place in January) and PSOE-UP will have to choose between them.

Bildu’s support was especially controversial, since part of the coalition of parties that composes it is a successor to Herri Batasuna, the former political wing of the Basque separatist terrorist organization ETA. Vox, unsurprisingly, lambasted the Government and accused it of cooperating with terrorists, while Pablo Casado attacked the PSOE affirming that the agreement was proof that Pablo Iglesias is really in charge.

There was also some pushback from inside the PSOE itself, with regional president Guillermo Fernández-Vara from Extremadura saying the inclusion of Bildu was “nauseating” and Castilla La Mancha regional president Emiliano García Page going as far as echoing the PP’s claims that Podemos is setting the Government’s agenda.

Personally, I believe it is good that Bildu is finally being included in the democratic system, ignoring hundreds of thousands of Basques who are trying to make their voices heard is not fair to them nor beneficial to the country. In fact, we should be very happy that they are doing it through ballots instead of bullets. Violence could once again become appealing to them if they are constantly blocked from participating in the political process peacefully.

I understand the large segment of Spaniards who despise Bildu and everything it stands for, but if we want true reconciliation, we have to learn to live with each other. To keep loathing them is going to backfire if their objective is to mantain Spanish unity, it will only make Basques feel more excluded and increase separatist sentiment.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: BigSerg on November 13, 2020, 06:23:44 PM
The Government easily won a vote to start the process of passing the 2021 budget, gaining the backing of both C’s and the left-wing nationalists (ERC and Bildu), though this simultaneous support is almost certainly not going to repeat itself in the final vote (which will probably take place in January) and PSOE-UP will have to choose between them.

Bildu’s support was especially controversial, since part of the coalition of parties that composes it is a successor to Herri Batasuna, the former political wing of the Basque separatist terrorist organization ETA. Vox, unsurprisingly, lambasted the Government and accused it of cooperating with terrorists, while Pablo Casado attacked the PSOE affirming that the agreement was proof that Pablo Iglesias is really in charge.

There was also some pushback from inside the PSOE itself, with regional president Guillermo Fernández-Vara from Extremadura saying the inclusion of Bildu was “nauseating” and Castilla La Mancha regional president Emiliano García Page going as far as echoing the PP’s claims that Podemos is setting the Government’s agenda.

Personally, I believe it is good that Bildu is finally being included in the democratic system, ignoring hundreds of thousands of Basques who are trying to make their voices heard is not fair to them nor beneficial to the country. In fact, we should be very happy that they are doing it through ballots instead of bullets. Violence could once again become appealing to them if they are constantly blocked from participating in the political process peacefully.

I understand the large segment of Spaniards who despise Bildu and everything it stands for, but if we want true reconciliation, we have to learn to live with each other. To keep loathing them is going to backfire if their objective is to mantain Spanish unity, it will only make Basques feel more excluded and increase separatist sentiment.




Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 14, 2020, 06:08:29 AM
Yeah, I mostly agree with Mimoha here. I personally do not like Bildu. However, I am also not too worried about it. I'd rather not have the Sanchez government do deals with them but I the math is what it is, and unfortunately it seems having support from both ERC and Cs will be impossible.

As for the ETA victims, of course one of the concessions has to be that Bildu condemns violence more emphatically. I think they already do, but still probably not enough.

In a way, I consider Bildu roughly an equivalent to Sinn Fein, another party I absolutely despise.

To be honest, I have no idea how PSOE should deal with Bildu. On one hand they are a party whose voters and seats are just as valid as those of Vox. This is no longer the 80s and 90s when the HB=ETA association was clear and ETA was murdering dozens of people every year. Bildu is a coalition of several parties, some who are spiritual successors to the old Batasuna; but others were in opposition to it and clearly condemned ETA's terrorism in the 90s and 00s (Aralar, Eusko Alkartasuna).

On the other hand, it is still an extremely hard pill to swallow for PSOE to negotiate with a party that, only 12 years ago, had some of its members murdering your own representatives in cold blood.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Velasco on November 14, 2020, 10:00:33 AM
It's a question of maths: ERC+Bildu have 18 seats and Cs only has 10.  Additionally the former are not compatible with the latter and UP has a strong interest in marginalizing Cs.

The diminished Arrimadas gang is struggling to survive as a centrist party, able to make deals with PP and PSOE. The PSOE and Pedro Sánchez would like to include Cs in the budget negotiation, in order to strengthen the parliamentary majority. Cs could be interesting as a future ally of the socialists, providing the party can survive and they have the mumbers (again). Bildu, ERC and UP don't want that Cs svsurvive for different reasons. Finally, the former leader Albert Rivera made a statement yesterday or the day before, which is a thinly veiled attack to his heir and former deputy leader Inés Arrimadas. Rivera, who is the main culprit for the Cs debacle six months after its heyday, says that there's no dignity in making deals with the Public Enemy Number One, who is Pedro Sánchez. It's been a hard week for Arrimadas

We all know that Bildu is the heir of the political wing of ETA. For sure the Otegi folks need to take more steps away from that past, but EH Bildu it's a legal party because they made the decision to engage in politics discarding the "armed struggle".  A vote for EH Bildu weighs exactly the same as a vote for any other party, including the ideological heirs of the Franco regime. ETA killed 800+ during its 50 years of existence, in the last decades of the Franco dictatorship and the democratic period afterwards. The Franco regime killed tens of hundreds of thousands. Consider that the same people crying it's an outrage to make deals with separatists and heirs of ETA usually remains silent about the deals with Francoists.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: BigSerg on November 14, 2020, 10:28:21 AM
It's a question of maths: ERC+Bildu have 18 seats and Cs only has 10.  Additionally the former are not compatible with the latter and UP has a strong interest in marginalizing Cs.

The diminished Arrimadas gang is struggling to survive as a centrist party, able to make deals with PP and PSOE. The PSOE and Pedro Sánchez would like to include Cs in the budget negotiation, in order to strengthen the parliamentary majority. Cs could be interesting as a future ally of the socialists, providing the party can survive and they have the mumbers (again). Bildu, ERC and UP don't want that Cs svsurvive for different reasons. Finally, the former leader Albert Rivera made a statement yesterday or the day before, which is a thinly veiled attack to his heir and former deputy leader Inés Arrimadas. Rivera, who is the main culprit for the Cs debacle six months after its heyday, says that there's no dignity in making deals with the Public Enemy Number One, who is Pedro Sánchez. It's been a hard week for Arrimadas

We all know that Bildu is the heir of the political wing of ETA. For sure the Otegi folks need to take more steps away from that past, but EH Bildu it's a legal party because they made the decision to engage in politics discarding the "armed struggle".  A vote for EH Bildu weighs exactly the same as a vote for any other party, including the ideological heirs of the Franco regime. ETA killed 800+ during its 50 years of existence, in the last decades of the Franco dictatorship and the democratic period afterwards. The Franco regime killed tens of hundreds of thousands. Consider that the same people crying it's an outrage to make deals with separatists and heirs of ETA usually remains silent about the deals with Francoists.
Just when I thought you couldn't go any lower...






Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Velasco on November 14, 2020, 11:28:33 AM
It's important to know that the votes of EH Bildu are not neccessary for a majority. The parties that voted "yes" to the investiture of Sánchez add 167 sests, which is 9 seats short of a majority. The key parties to form a majority are ERC (13} and Cs (10). EH Bildu has only 5 seats and plays a minor role in the parliamentary arithmetic. Possibly the Bildu folks announced their probable support to discourage negotiations with Cs, which is in the UP but not in the PSOE interest. The socialists are not in a position to reject Bildu, which is usually alligned with ERC, but I don't think they were looking after the Otegi bunch


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 14, 2020, 12:35:53 PM
Yeah, I think the Bildu active support was not negotiated by PSOE (maybe by UP, but even that's far from certain)

In fact, their support almost feels to me as a blank cheque lol.

It's not like the Navarra "big brain" maths to get Chivite elected regional premier, where GBai negotiated with Bildu to abstain while PSOE negotiated with GBai or something like that.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Velasco on November 14, 2020, 06:42:42 PM
Yeah, I think the Bildu active support was not negotiated by PSOE (maybe by UP, but even that's far from certain)

In fact, their support almost feels to me as a blank cheque lol.

It's not like the Navarra "big brain" maths to get Chivite elected regional premier, where GBai negotiated with Bildu to abstain while PSOE negotiated with GBai or sothing like that.

It's not exactly a blank cheque, but it's not that PSOE and UP sold themselves to Otegi. Pablo Iglesias celebrated the Otegi statements, because the Bildu support helps UP to keep Cs out of the deal. I don't know if Bildu and UP negotiated anything (probably not), but Iglesias has good contacts with separatist and nationalist parties and he talks with everybody, with the likely exception of Santiago Abascal

PSOE and GBai form a coalition government in Navarra. They need to negotiate that Bildu votes in favour or abstain, because NA+ is not going to help to pass the budget. That's not strictly necessary in the Congress of Deputies. But again we have a case of double standards. The Spanish Right demonizes the "heirs of ETA" and the " communists*" (saying that Podemos us "populist" and "Bolivarian" is old-fashioned, apparently), while bleaches the Francoist agents of Trump (Casado once said the Vox dudes are "constitutionalists"). I concur that it's positive to normalize Bildu, which has a leftwing platform compatible with other psrties on social and economic issues, regar yo criticize Otegi's ambiguity on other issues related to ETA or the victims (not forgetting on the other side that GAL victims need recognition, too). Anyway there's no big difference between Arnakdi Otegi and Gerry Adams (they are good friends)

* I heard the new PP spokeswoman Cuca Gamarra arguing that limiting rent prices is a communist measure, so I guess Berlin has gone back behind the Iron Curtain


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Skye on November 17, 2020, 07:19:55 AM


Thanks, Pablo, this is really the tweet I needed right now 🙄


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Velasco on November 17, 2020, 09:47:57 AM
Pablo Iglesias is clearly mocking all his haters in Tweeter; whom apparently use that hashtag. Not a fan of Iglesias wearing his hair in a  bun (moño), but far right trolls are gonna hate regardless his hairstyle


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Skye on November 17, 2020, 09:51:49 AM
Pablo Iglesias is clearly mocking all his haters in Tweeter; whom apparently use that hashtag. Not a fan of Iglesias wearing his hair in a  bun (moño), but far right trolls are gonna hate regardless his hairstyle

Wasn't his nickname "El Coletas"?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: BigSerg on November 17, 2020, 09:52:35 AM
Yeah, I think the Bildu active support was not negotiated by PSOE (maybe by UP, but even that's far from certain)

In fact, their support almost feels to me as a blank cheque lol.

It's not like the Navarra "big brain" maths to get Chivite elected regional premier, where GBai negotiated with Bildu to abstain while PSOE negotiated with GBai or sothing like that.

It's not exactly a blank cheque, but it's not that PSOE and UP sold themselves to Otegi. Pablo Iglesias celebrated the Otegi statements, because the Bildu support helps UP to keep Cs out of the deal. I don't know if Bildu and UP negotiated anything (probably not), but Iglesias has good contacts with separatist and nationalist parties and he talks with everybody, with the likely exception of Santiago Abascal

PSOE and GBai form a coalition government in Navarra. They need to negotiate that Bildu votes in favour or abstain, because NA+ is not going to help to pass the budget. That's not strictly necessary in the Congress of Deputies. But again we have a case of double standards. The Spanish Right demonizes the "heirs of ETA" and the " communists*" (saying that Podemos us "populist" and "Bolivarian" is old-fashioned, apparently), while bleaches the Francoist agents of Trump (Casado once said the Vox dudes are "constitutionalists"). I concur that it's positive to normalize Bildu, which has a leftwing platform compatible with other psrties on social and economic issues, regar yo criticize Otegi's ambiguity on other issues related to ETA or the victims (not forgetting on the other side that GAL victims need recognition, too). Anyway there's no big difference between Arnakdi Otegi and Gerry Adams (they are good friends)

* I heard the new PP spokeswoman Cuca Gamarra arguing that limiting rent prices is a communist measure, so I guess Berlin has gone back behind the Iron Curtain

lol, what a ridiculous argument is this? lying also has a limit


()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: BigSerg on November 17, 2020, 10:08:10 AM
Yeah, I think the Bildu active support was not negotiated by PSOE (maybe by UP, but even that's far from certain)

In fact, their support almost feels to me as a blank cheque lol.

It's not like the Navarra "big brain" maths to get Chivite elected regional premier, where GBai negotiated with Bildu to abstain while PSOE negotiated with GBai or sothing like that.

It's not exactly a blank cheque, but it's not that PSOE and UP sold themselves to Otegi. Pablo Iglesias celebrated the Otegi statements, because the Bildu support helps UP to keep Cs out of the deal. I don't know if Bildu and UP negotiated anything (probably not), but Iglesias has good contacts with separatist and nationalist parties and he talks with everybody, with the likely exception of Santiago Abascal

PSOE and GBai form a coalition government in Navarra. They need to negotiate that Bildu votes in favour or abstain, because NA+ is not going to help to pass the budget. That's not strictly necessary in the Congress of Deputies. But again we have a case of double standards. The Spanish Right demonizes the "heirs of ETA" and the " communists*" (saying that Podemos us "populist" and "Bolivarian" is old-fashioned, apparently), while bleaches the Francoist agents of Trump (Casado once said the Vox dudes are "constitutionalists"). I concur that it's positive to normalize Bildu, which has a leftwing platform compatible with other psrties on social and economic issues, regar yo criticize Otegi's ambiguity on other issues related to ETA or the victims (not forgetting on the other side that GAL victims need recognition, too). Anyway there's no big difference between Arnakdi Otegi and Gerry Adams (they are good friends)

* I heard the new PP spokeswoman Cuca Gamarra arguing that limiting rent prices is a communist measure, so I guess Berlin has gone back behind the Iron Curtain

lol, what a ridiculous argument is this? lying also has a limit


()


Arnaldo Otegi: Otegi has been imprisoned up to five times. The last, in 2009, for an armed gang membership offence in the Bateragune case.

Arkaitz Rodríguez: He was convicted along with Arnaldo Otegi for belonging to the terrorist gang ETA in the Bateragune case. Rodriguez was arrested in 2009 and sentenced to six years in prison.

Bergoi Madernaz del Pozo: served time for integration into the terrorist gang ETA. Madernaz was arrested in France with other young people by French police authorities in February 2011 after escaped from the Basque Country. He spent four years in prison.

https://www.elespanol.com/espana/20200714/politica-miembros-bildu-pagaron-prision-colaboracion-eta/504979503_3.html#img_2

Vox Francoists...
()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Zinneke on November 17, 2020, 10:35:26 AM
You are the internet equivalent of a cani. Pipe down and put your gelpot and white polo tshirt away.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Velasco on November 17, 2020, 10:46:50 AM
See, ETA ceased operations in October 2011 and disbanded in May 2018. The terrorist group was DEFEATED by the Spanish democracy, with a very special mention to Interior minister Rubalcaba and PM Zapatero (thank you!). The "heirs of ETA" have engaged in politics; which is another extraordinary achievement of our democratic regime, imperfect but more sólid than many people think. Sortu, the successor of Batasuna and the main party within EH Bildu, is a legal party because its manifesto explicitly rejects violence as a mean to achieve the independence of Euskal Herria. Likewise the "heirs of Franco" are engaged in polítics within PP and Vox; which is also extraordinary

I mean, our current problems arserious and tricky enough to mess around with the shadow of a defunct terrorist group. We must remember our history and honor the victims of Franco or ETA, but EH Bildu, PP and Vox have the right to exist as polítical organizations

ETA was DEFEATED


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Velasco on November 17, 2020, 11:10:06 AM
Pablo Iglesias is clearly mocking all his haters in Tweeter; whom apparently use that hashtag. Not a fan of Iglesias wearing his hair in a  bun (moño), but far right trolls are gonna hate regardless his hairstyle

Wasn't his nickname "El Coletas"?

Yes, but recently he has removed his ponytail and wears his hair in a bun. I think the former hairstyle is better


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: BigSerg on November 17, 2020, 11:29:24 AM


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 17, 2020, 12:13:05 PM
Pablo Iglesias is clearly mocking all his haters in Tweeter; whom apparently use that hashtag. Not a fan of Iglesias wearing his hair in a  bun (moño), but far right trolls are gonna hate regardless his hairstyle

Wasn't his nickname "El Coletas"?

It was and still is called that way often.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 17, 2020, 12:33:17 PM
You are the internet equivalent of a cani. Pipe down and put your gelpot and white polo tshirt away.

I mean, most canis would actually not wear polo tshirts but rather sports tracksuits or other similar stuff :P





Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Zinneke on November 17, 2020, 01:14:55 PM
You are the internet equivalent of a cani. Pipe down and put your gelpot and white polo tshirt away.

I mean, most canis would actually not wear polo tshirts but rather sports tracksuits or other similar stuff :P





()

i regret to inform you this is now a trend


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 20, 2020, 08:42:36 AM
Yesterday, the "Organic Law for the Modification of the Organic Education Law", but more commonly known as the "Celaá Act" after minister of education Isabel Celaá, passed the parliamentary comisions and will shortly be voted upon by the entire Congress.

This is a very controversial education law which the Spanish right has critizised a lot recently, and has even seen some protests and concentrations against it. Here are some of the main points from the bill:

> Spanish will no longer be recognized as the "Vehicular language" of education. This basically means that a right to get a Spanish education in Catalonia is no longer guaranteed. Catalonia's education laws, unlike those from the other regions with cooficial languages mandate that catalan is the only language of education. The other regions give parents the choice of language to educate their kids.

> The Religion class will no longer count towards your GPA equivalent, for the purposes of university access and what not.

> A new Ethic and Civic values class gets added to the primary and middle school curriculum

> Repeating a school year shall be considered exceptional and is no longer automatic. Basically, rules about repeating a school year have been loosened and now it won't be an automatic thing (More than X failed classes = repeat year) and students may pass with 1-2 failed classes

> Following from the above, students are now able to get their "Bachillerato title" (year 12) with up to 1 failed class

> Charter schools may not segregate students based upon gender

> 10 years from now, schools must be able to give classes to disabled students

> The main criteria for school choice when demand overtakes supply shall be siblings in the school, rent and proximity

> The "social demand" criteria when deciding whether or not to authorize the creation of new charter schools is abolished

https://www.20minutos.es/noticia/4479611/0/ley-celaa-lomloe-espanol-lengua-vehicular-eleccion-centro-educacion-especial/



My personal opinion on this bill is that it is rather meh. I do not oppose it, but given it is a partial repeal of the older Wert act from the Rajoy government, it doesn't really tackle other important points I think, like the infamous examinations and what not.

The right wing criticism comes in 3 flavours I think:

1) An "attack" on charter schools: I am personally in favour of most of the measures here. Public education should be the norm and defended by the state over charter schools. In fact the entire concept of charer schools was thought of as a temporary bandaid in the 1980s! There is nothing as permanent as a temporary solution

2) Spanish being removed from schools in Catalonia: The usual nationalist stuff, this was after an amendment from ERC was accepted. I don't care that much given that the status quo in Catalonia was already little to no Spanish education on public schools. Though I will say that I prefer the Basque model of school choice over Catalonia forcing everyone to learn in Catalan

3) The Socialists promoting mediocrity and allowing people with failed subjects to pass: The only criticism I agree with, this bill will make classes even easier to pass. There is a reason why university professors say (rightly) that their students each year get dumber and dumber. School contents and difficulty have been gradually reduced.

When I was in high school, to study I actually used my parents' BUP and COU books from the 1970s instead of my very own books! Why? Because the things my parents did were harder and that way I was better prepared. Having to do math exercises with pesetas was certainly weird but still.

I don't think we should make school easier tbh. Bachillerato and especially ESO are not that hard to pass. I am not saying we should make it harder either, but certainly not any easier. The LOGSE from 1990 probably already reduced education difficulty more than enough.



Fun fact: This will be the 8th education law passed since 1970, and 7th since democracy started.

The fact that so many education bills have been passed is hilarious. In fact, my brother has actually studied under 4 different education bills from 4 different governments! (Granted Aznar's LOCE was never fully implemented but still)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Velasco on November 22, 2020, 01:46:41 PM
The last CEO poll for Catalonia was released two days ago

Congress of Deputies (47 seats of 350)

ERC 15 (23.9%), PSC 12/13 (21.7%), JxCAT 7/8 (12.3%), ECP 6 (12 5%), PP 3 (8.4%), VOX 2 (6.7%), CUP 1/2 (5.3%), Cs 1 (4.6%), PDeCAT 0 (1.5%)

Parliament of Catalonia (135 seats)

ERC 36/37 (24.4%), JxCAT 28/30 (18.7%), PSC 22/23 (16.8%), Cs 13/14 (10.0%); PP 8/9 (7.0%), CATCOMU-PODEM  7/9 (7.2%), VOX 7/8 (6.4%), CUP 6/8 (5.3%), PDeCAT 0/1 (2.4%)

Support for independence: Yes 43.6%  No 49%, Undecided 5.8%, Don't Answer 1.8%

https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20201120/49552464295/ceo-barometro-erc-ganaria-elecciones-catalanas-independentismo-50-de-votos.html

As for the polítical situación in Spain, it's absurdly complicated as usual. Thankfully there are a few individuals able to decipher it for me. Hats off to máster analyst Enric Juliana


https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20201122/49595535754/gobierno-pactos-iglesias-sanchez-ciudadanos-psoe-podemos.html




Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: NewYorkExpress on November 24, 2020, 03:35:27 PM
King Felipe VI in quarantine after COVID exposure. (https://thehill.com/policy/international/527294-spains-king-in-quarantine-after-coronavirus-exposure-report)

Quote
Spanish King Felipe VI began 10 days in quarantine on Monday after being in close contact with someone who later tested positive for COVID-19, Reuters reported.

A Royal House source told the news agency that the 52-year-old canceled his public appearances during the 10-day period. The cancellations came after the close contact tested positive on Monday after being with the king on Sunday.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Velasco on November 25, 2020, 08:53:46 AM
Spanish government secures enough support to have the budget passed

https://english.elpais.com/economy_and_business/2020-11-25/spanish-government-secures-pledge-for-budget-deal-with-catalan-basque-support.html

Quote
Spanish executive has secured enough support to get its 2021 budget plan approved in Congress, bringing added stability to the minority center-left government of the Socialist Party (PSOE) and Unidas Podemos.

 Spain has been functioning since 2018 with a budget that was approved by the previous Popular Party (PP) administration. The country held a snap election in April of last year after parliament voted down an earlier draft, and this was followed by another early election in November. Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez of the PSOE is hoping that this new budget deal will see him through the remainder of the political term.

Support is being provided by three regional parties that also backed Sánchez’s return to the prime minister’s office in January of this year. The executive said it has reached a “preliminary deal” with the Catalan Republican Left (ERC), and ensured backing from the Basque Nationalist Party (PNV) and Bildu, a far-left Basque party. Together with the governing coalition partners, they represent 179 seats, three more than required for an absolute majority.

The preliminary ideal with ERC incorporates the creation of a "bilateral commission" and a "work group" to develop a fiscal reform and measures of fiscal harmonization between regions, in order to put an end to the Madrid's "tax oasis". Madrid is often accused of tax dumping by other Spanish regions, which deem tax exemptions as unfair competition and lack of solidarity. Madrid's lower taxes might favor the concentration of resources and investment in its region, already favored by the capital estatus, to the detriment of the surrounding regions that are facing increasing depopulation. The PP regional governments have implemented tax cuts since the days of Esperanza Aguirre. Premier Isabel Diaz Ayuso is ready to fight a new battle to defend the "oasis", which is a core value of the rightwing parties in Madrid. Pablo Casado will second her neoliberal crusade, obviously


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 25, 2020, 02:15:00 PM
Tbh I find it kind of ironic that ERC is now supporting centralization and meddling on the affairs of the regions


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on November 25, 2020, 02:25:23 PM
Tbh I find it kind of ironic that ERC is now supporting centralization and meddling on the affairs of the regions

Ironic? This cannot be the first time a Spanish regional party promotes "regionalism for me but not for thee", is it?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Skye on November 25, 2020, 02:38:16 PM
At the risk of derailing the thread, this is just way too funny not to share:



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Velasco on November 25, 2020, 03:16:55 PM
Tbh I find it kind of ironic that ERC is now supporting centralization and meddling on the affairs of the regions

Ironic? This cannot be the first time a Spanish regional party promotes "regionalism for me but not for thee", is it?


Maybe ir seems ironic coming from ERC, but tax dumping affects Catalonia too. On the other hand, fiscal harmonization does not strike as a centralist measure to me. Rather I think federal countries should embarace it and discourage policies that create fiscal imbalances. Moreover, Madrid is the region containing the capital of Spain and should lead by example. But the Madrid regional governments have chosen instead to become a tax haven for millionaires, at the expense of public services (years of budget cuts affect public healthcare in times of pandemic) and the rest of Spain. It's quite ironic and hypocritical to see rightwing leaders in Madrid crying at the lack of solidarity of Catalans and Basques, while taking advantage of dumping practices and the advantages of being the capital.  Some people is beginning to compare the 'rebel' Ayuso with the Catalan separatist leaders, because there's a common ground in what concerns the lack of solidarity and sense of state. If ERC is truly interested in tax reform and harmonization, that's excellent news. I fear the ongoing conflict will benefit Ayuso in Madrid, though. The Spanish Right will claim there's an attack on Madrid based on hatred from Catalonia, as it happened when Health minister Salvador Illa was accused by the PP of hating Madrid when he enforced the state of emergency in the region


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 26, 2020, 05:36:48 AM
Tbh I find it kind of ironic that ERC is now supporting centralization and meddling on the affairs of the regions

Ironic? This cannot be the first time a Spanish regional party promotes "regionalism for me but not for thee", is it?


Maybe ir seems ironic coming from ERC, but tax dumping affects Catalonia too. On the other hand, fiscal harmonization does not strike as a centralist measure to me. Rather I think federal countries should embarace it and discourage policies that create fiscal imbalances. Moreover, Madrid is the region containing the capital of Spain and should lead by example. But the Madrid regional governments have chosen instead to become a tax haven for millionaires, at the expense of public services (years of budget cuts affect public healthcare in times of pandemic) and the rest of Spain. It's quite ironic and hypocritical to see rightwing leaders in Madrid crying at the lack of solidarity of Catalans and Basques, while taking advantage of dumping practices and the advantages of being the capital.  Some people is beginning to compare the 'rebel' Ayuso with the Catalan separatist leaders, because there's a common ground in what concerns the lack of solidarity and sense of state. If ERC is truly interested in tax reform and harmonization, that's excellent news. I fear the ongoing conflict will benefit Ayuso in Madrid, though. The Spanish Right will claim there's an attack on Madrid based on hatred from Catalonia, as it happened when Health minister Salvador Illa was accused by the PP of hating Madrid when he enforced the state of emergency in the region

The people of Madrid have voted PP for decades now (Tamayazo not withstanding); on a platform of austerity + tax cuts. I do not agree with that platform, but the people of Madrid have decided that is the model they want for their region. Who is ERC to deny them such privilege?

I am in favour of fiscal balancing, and of rich regions supporting the poorer ones (this is something the EU actually does quite well and that we could pull off nationally too). But this should not be done by the federal government meddling on the affairs of the regions. If the people of Madrid want low taxes and sh*tty healthcare, let them have it. Just likehow Catalonia probably prefers higher taxes and a good safety net.

Bonus points when you consider that the Basque Country has a special tax model that is much closer to "tax dumping" than whatever Madrid does, yet I don't see ERC wanting to abolish it (ftr I do not support abolishing it, but that just adds to the hypocresy)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 26, 2020, 05:39:18 AM
Tbh I find it kind of ironic that ERC is now supporting centralization and meddling on the affairs of the regions

Ironic? This cannot be the first time a Spanish regional party promotes "regionalism for me but not for thee", is it?

Probably not, but I can't think of all that many examples. The only one I can remember right now is that the Catalan statute of 2006, as originally written, had a provision that directly meddled in the affairs of other regions, saying something like:

-The financial resources of Catalonia may be adjusted to better balance regional development in Spain, provided other regions do a similar fiscal effort

That was one of the 14 articles that were completely deleted as unconstitutional though. (unsurprising as that was blatantly unconstitutional)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on November 26, 2020, 06:06:17 AM
Tbh I find it kind of ironic that ERC is now supporting centralization and meddling on the affairs of the regions

Ironic? This cannot be the first time a Spanish regional party promotes "regionalism for me but not for thee", is it?

Probably not, but I can't think of all that many examples. The only one I can remember right now is that the Catalan statute of 2006, as originally written, had a provision that directly meddled in the affairs of other regions, saying something like:

-The financial resources of Catalonia may be adjusted to better balance regional development in Spain, provided other regions do a similar fiscal effort

That was one of the 14 articles that were completely deleted as unconstitutional though. (unsurprising as that was blatantly unconstitutional)

Wow that was blatant Catalan supremacism lol.

Anyway:
1. I'm surprised #trends haven't hit the region of Madrid yet.
2. [citation needed] on your comment about the EU, because it seems to me that it's always damn complicated to get that.
3. Your above post is a good explanation (not that I needed any - we are on a mainly American forum) of why I think federalism generally sucks.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 26, 2020, 06:40:55 AM
Anyway:
1. I'm surprised #trends haven't hit the region of Madrid yet.
2. [citation needed] on your comment about the EU, because it seems to me that it's always damn complicated to get that.
3. Your above post is a good explanation (not that I needed any - we are on a mainly American forum) of why I think federalism generally sucks.

1) Yeah, while there has been movement in Madrid lately, it is not the usual #trends of the cities going far left. The posh areas of Madrid (Salamanca neighbourhood) and upper class western suburbs (Las Rozas, Majadahonda, etc) thankfully still give the right routinely 70% or more. As things should be :P

Iirc Madrid is one of very few European capitals (maybe the only one?) that votes to the right of the country.

Whether or not #trends will eventually hit is a mystery, but for now Madrid remains something like 7 points to the right of Spain at large. Winnable in a wave, but not by much.

2) My thought was that the EU's regional development funds do a great job at propping up the less developed areas of the EU. Spain certainly benefited from this in the 80s and 90s; and nowadays it is Eastern Europe that is catching up very fast to Western Europe.

We just need a similar scheme at the national level.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: CumbrianLefty on November 26, 2020, 08:36:48 AM
Stockholm still votes to the right of the country as a whole, no? Oslo as well, possibly.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Velasco on November 26, 2020, 11:14:41 AM
Tbh I find it kind of ironic that ERC is now supporting centralization and meddling on the affairs of the regions

Ironic? This cannot be the first time a Spanish regional party promotes "regionalism for me but not for thee", is it?


Maybe ir seems ironic coming from ERC, but tax dumping affects Catalonia too. On the other hand, fiscal harmonization does not strike as a centralist measure to me. Rather I think federal countries should embarace it and discourage policies that create fiscal imbalances. Moreover, Madrid is the region containing the capital of Spain and should lead by example. But the Madrid regional governments have chosen instead to become a tax haven for millionaires, at the expense of public services (years of budget cuts affect public healthcare in times of pandemic) and the rest of Spain. It's quite ironic and hypocritical to see rightwing leaders in Madrid crying at the lack of solidarity of Catalans and Basques, while taking advantage of dumping practices and the advantages of being the capital.  Some people is beginning to compare the 'rebel' Ayuso with the Catalan separatist leaders, because there's a common ground in what concerns the lack of solidarity and sense of state. If ERC is truly interested in tax reform and harmonization, that's excellent news. I fear the ongoing conflict will benefit Ayuso in Madrid, though. The Spanish Right will claim there's an attack on Madrid based on hatred from Catalonia, as it happened when Health minister Salvador Illa was accused by the PP of hating Madrid when he enforced the state of emergency in the region

The people of Madrid have voted PP for decades now (Tamayazo not withstanding); on a platform of austerity + tax cuts. I do not agree with that platform, but the people of Madrid have decided that is the model they want for their region. Who is ERC to deny them such privilege?

I am in favour of fiscal balancing, and of rich regions supporting the poorer ones (this is something the EU actually does quite well and that we could pull off nationally too). But this should not be done by the federal government meddling on the affairs of the regions. If the people of Madrid want low taxes and sh*tty healthcare, let them have it. Just likehow Catalonia probably prefers higher taxes and a good safety net.

Bonus points when you consider that the Basque Country has a special tax model that is much closer to "tax dumping" than whatever Madrid does, yet I don't see ERC wanting to abolish it (ftr I do not support abolishing it, but that just adds to the hypocresy)

1) The PP was not the winner of the last regional elecction, it was the PSOE the party with the most votes. However, the parties right of the centre won a majority and they certainly support los taxes. Nevertheless the people of Madrid did not give a clear mandate yo Ayuso: she governs because the "centrist liberals" opted for our kitsch version of Donald Trump instead of the reasonable Ángel Gabilondo. Right now the region of Madrid and the whole Spain could have been governed by a centrist 'social-liberal' coalition. Never forget it was the decision of Albert Rivera, not the will of the people of Madrid

2) I heard Spain is the only European country where income and inheritance taxes are decentralized. There are good reasons yo think that's a mistake. Madrid is a central region containing the capital of Spain, as well a wealthy region that can afford lowering faxes, attracting top earners from elsewhere in Spain. Other regiones lack the resources avalaible in Madrid and cannot afford such low taxes nor compete with the wealthy capital. That's a clear example of tax dumping. Key principales of a federal state should be solidarity and corresponsobility. Fiscal harmonization consists in establishing superior and inferior limits to taxes. That's not meddling un regional affairs, but establishing the game rules. The government has been considering harmonization before the deal with ERC. It's not only Catalonia; Valencia premier Ximo Puig already complained against tax dumping.However, it was a clear mistake on the part of ERC spokesman Gabriel Rufián to raise the question of harmonization as a battle against the Madrid's "fiscal oasis". Rufián has made a big favor to Ayuso, who is a big fan of cultural battles. Such conflicts could lead eventually to the failure of reform attempts

3) The Concierto Económico, the tax system ruling un Basque Country and Navarra, is completely unrelated to this question. These regions collect taxes in a different way, but a tax harmonization would affect them regardless. By no means the Concierto Económico is a form of tax dumping: we are talking about tax rates, not about tax systems. As for the solidarity, these regions put money into the joint fund through the "cupo", which is an amount is negotiated with the central government. It's a systems deeply entrenched in the tradition of these regions that works well. It does not neccessarily imply privilege or  lack of solidarity, as some centralist folks claim. Remember that we have in the Canaries another kind of special tax system, too

Spain as a whole has a lot of pending reforms, including administration, tax system and the functioning of the decentralized state


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on November 26, 2020, 12:54:20 PM
Stockholm still votes to the right of the country as a whole, no? Oslo as well, possibly.

I am not sure about Stockholm proper, but its suburbs seem to be the only places where the Moderate Party tops the poll, together with the suburbs of Malmö.
Oslo seems to be right-leaning too, yes.

I wonder when various capitals last voted to the right of their nation.
Rome has never done in the Second Republic Party System. Things get obviously messy before 1994... the margin between DC and PCI was generally closer (actually PCI won Rome in 1976 and 1983) but Rome was also peculiarly good for the far-right. Last time Rome uncontrovertibly voted to the right of Italy appears to be 1948.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Mike88 on November 26, 2020, 01:05:53 PM
Stockholm still votes to the right of the country as a whole, no? Oslo as well, possibly.

I am not sure about Stockholm proper, but its suburbs seem to be the only places where the Moderate Party tops the poll, together with the suburbs of Malmö.
Oslo seems to be right-leaning too, yes.

I wonder when various capitals last voted to the right of their nation.
Rome has never done in the Second Republic Party System. Things get obviously messy before 1994... the margin between DC and PCI was generally closer (actually PCI won Rome in 1976 and 1983) but Rome was also peculiarly good for the far-right. Last time Rome uncontrovertibly voted to the right of Italy appears to be 1948.
Lisbon is a swing city as it has voted for the winner in every general election since 1975, but more recently the city tends to give a slight higher share for the rightwing parties than the country as a whole, in general elections of course. Local elections are a whole different championship.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: President Punxsutawney Phil on November 26, 2020, 01:06:58 PM
Stockholm still votes to the right of the country as a whole, no? Oslo as well, possibly.

I am not sure about Stockholm proper, but its suburbs seem to be the only places where the Moderate Party tops the poll, together with the suburbs of Malmö.
Oslo seems to be right-leaning too, yes.

I wonder when various capitals last voted to the right of their nation.
Rome has never done in the Second Republic Party System. Things get obviously messy before 1994... the margin between DC and PCI was generally closer (actually PCI won Rome in 1976 and 1983) but Rome was also peculiarly good for the far-right. Last time Rome uncontrovertibly voted to the right of Italy appears to be 1948.
Lisbon is a swing city as it has voted for the winner in every general election since 1975, but more recently the city tends to give a slight higher share for the rightwing parties than the country as a whole, in general elections of course. Local elections are a whole different championship.
is Lisbon trending to the right?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Mike88 on November 26, 2020, 01:16:33 PM
Stockholm still votes to the right of the country as a whole, no? Oslo as well, possibly.

I am not sure about Stockholm proper, but its suburbs seem to be the only places where the Moderate Party tops the poll, together with the suburbs of Malmö.
Oslo seems to be right-leaning too, yes.

I wonder when various capitals last voted to the right of their nation.
Rome has never done in the Second Republic Party System. Things get obviously messy before 1994... the margin between DC and PCI was generally closer (actually PCI won Rome in 1976 and 1983) but Rome was also peculiarly good for the far-right. Last time Rome uncontrovertibly voted to the right of Italy appears to be 1948.
Lisbon is a swing city as it has voted for the winner in every general election since 1975, but more recently the city tends to give a slight higher share for the rightwing parties than the country as a whole, in general elections of course. Local elections are a whole different championship.
is Lisbon trending to the right?
Like I said, it's a swing city as it goes left to right quite rapidly, but, for example, the overall rightwing vote in Lisbon city grew a tiny bit from 2015 to 2019, 37.5% to 38.2%. Nationwide, the rightwing vote in 2015 and 2019 was 38.6% and 35.4% respectively. Porto city is trending right much more rapidly and strongly.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: CumbrianLefty on November 26, 2020, 03:08:26 PM
(Greater) London last - narrowly - voted to the right of Britain as a whole as recently as 1992.

(and more decisively so in 1987)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Skye on November 26, 2020, 03:16:47 PM
Anyway:
1. I'm surprised #trends haven't hit the region of Madrid yet.
2. [citation needed] on your comment about the EU, because it seems to me that it's always damn complicated to get that.
3. Your above post is a good explanation (not that I needed any - we are on a mainly American forum) of why I think federalism generally sucks.

1) Yeah, while there has been movement in Madrid lately, it is not the usual #trends of the cities going far left. The posh areas of Madrid (Salamanca neighbourhood) and upper class western suburbs (Las Rozas, Majadahonda, etc) thankfully still give the right routinely 70% or more. As things should be :P

Iirc Madrid is one of very few European capitals (maybe the only one?) that votes to the right of the country.

Whether or not #trends will eventually hit is a mystery, but for now Madrid remains something like 7 points to the right of Spain at large. Winnable in a wave, but not by much.

2) My thought was that the EU's regional development funds do a great job at propping up the less developed areas of the EU. Spain certainly benefited from this in the 80s and 90s; and nowadays it is Eastern Europe that is catching up very fast to Western Europe.

We just need a similar scheme at the national level.

Yes, actually, this map is titled "Spot the fancy neighborhoods":

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 26, 2020, 04:55:18 PM

1) The PP was not the winner of the last regional elecction, it was the PSOE the party with the most votes. However, the parties right of the centre won a majority and they certainly support los taxes. Nevertheless the people of Madrid did not give a clear mandate yo Ayuso: she governs because the "centrist liberals" opted for our kitsch version of Donald Trump instead of the reasonable Ángel Gabilondo. Right now the region of Madrid and the whole Spain could have been governed by a centrist 'social-liberal' coalition. Never forget it was the decision of Albert Rivera, not the will of the people of Madrid

2) I heard Spain is the only European country where income and inheritance taxes are decentralized. There are good reasons yo think that's a mistake. Madrid is a central region containing the capital of Spain, as well a wealthy region that can afford lowering faxes, attracting top earners from elsewhere in Spain. Other regiones lack the resources avalaible in Madrid and cannot afford such low taxes nor compete with the wealthy capital. That's a clear example of tax dumping. Key principales of a federal state should be solidarity and corresponsobility. Fiscal harmonization consists in establishing superior and inferior limits to taxes. That's not meddling un regional affairs, but establishing the game rules. The government has been considering harmonization before the deal with ERC. It's not only Catalonia; Valencia premier Ximo Puig already complained against tax dumping.However, it was a clear mistake on the part of ERC spokesman Gabriel Rufián to raise the question of harmonization as a battle against the Madrid's "fiscal oasis". Rufián has made a big favor to Ayuso, who is a big fan of cultural battles. Such conflicts could lead eventually to the failure of reform attempts

3) The Concierto Económico, the tax system ruling un Basque Country and Navarra, is completely unrelated to this question. These regions collect taxes in a different way, but a tax harmonization would affect them regardless. By no means the Concierto Económico is a form of tax dumping: we are talking about tax rates, not about tax systems. As for the solidarity, these regions put money into the joint fund through the "cupo", which is an amount is negotiated with the central government. It's a systems deeply entrenched in the tradition of these regions that works well. It does not neccessarily imply privilege or  lack of solidarity, as some centralist folks claim. Remember that we have in the Canaries another kind of special tax system, too

Spain as a whole has a lot of pending reforms, including administration, tax system and the functioning of the decentralized state

1) I mean, for better or worse Spain is locked into a 2 blocks policy right now; and the right won a comfortable majority in 2019 (they also won the popular vote). You'd have good arguments for 2015 (the right loses the popular vote but gets a majority due to IU falling below the threshold) or 2003 (see: Tamayazo). Of course, that still conveniently forgets about the 2 times the Madrid voters gave PP massive majorities under notoriously right wing premier Esperanza Aguirre (2007 & 2011); or 1995 & 1999 for that matter.

Cs decided to go with a right wing coalition in Madrid and that's their choice. Voters will reward (or punish) them accordingly 4 years from now. But the mandate is certainly there for further tax cuts and what not.

2) I mean, this is an American forum, where even sales tax is decentralized! :P But the US aren't in Europe so fair point.

I do know Madrid is a rich region and that is why I want strong rebalancing programs to counter that, but taxation should still be quite decentralized (more than now in fact, not less). Madrid, for virtue of being the capital and biggest metropolitan area is always going to be richer than average, but that is not a reason to kill its autonomy? It is a reason for better rebalancing programs, but not for centralism.

3) I used the Concierto as an example where the tax dumping is arguably clearer than in Madrid's case. Madrid at least gives more in taxes than it gets back from the central government. But despite the Basque Country (and Navarra) being 2 of the richest regions in Spain, they also take more in taxes than they give in return!

I also remember some takes about how the concierto allows the 2 regions to change corporation tax, and a lower corporation tax means that companies prefer to operate in Álava than in La Rioja across the border; leading to negative effects on La Rioja's economy.

I do agree on the need for reforms though; as the Catalonia situation shows very clearly. But when 35% of the country wants recentralization and a further 20% wants independence, I think the status quo is likely to stay as a lesser evil.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Velasco on November 26, 2020, 06:33:14 PM
[

1) I mean, for better or worse Spain is locked into a 2 blocks policy right now; and the right won a comfortable majority in 2019 (they also won the popular vote). You'd have good arguments for 2015 (the right loses the popular vote but gets a majority due to IU falling below the threshold) or 2003 (see: Tamayazo). Of course, that still conveniently forgets about the 2 times the Madrid voters gave PP massive majorities under notoriously right wing premier Esperanza Aguirre (2007 & 2011); or 1995 & 1999 for that matter.

Cs decided to go with a right wing coalition in Madrid and that's their choice. Voters will reward (or punish) them accordingly 4 years from now. But the mandate is certainly there for further tax cuts and what not.

2) I mean, this is an American forum, where even sales tax is decentralized! :P But the US aren't in Europe so fair point.

I do know Madrid is a rich region and that is why I want strong rebalancing programs to counter that, but taxation should still be quite decentralized (more than now in fact, not less). Madrid, for virtue of being the capital and biggest metropolitan area is always going to be richer than average, but that is not a reason to kill its autonomy? It is a reason for better rebalancing programs, but not for centralism.

3) I used the Concierto as an example where the tax dumping is arguably clearer than in Madrid's case. Madrid at least gives more in taxes than it gets back from the central government. But despite the Basque Country (and Navarra) being 2 of the richest regions in Spain, they also take more in taxes than they give in return!

I also remember some takes about how the concierto allows the 2 regions to change corporation tax, and a lower corporation tax means that companies prefer to operate in Álava than in La Rioja across the border; leading to negative effects on La Rioja's economy.

I do agree on the need for reforms though; as the Catalonia situation shows very clearly. But when 35% of the country wants recentralization and a further 20% wants independence, I think the status quo is likely to stay as a lesser evil.

1) Being locked in leftwing and rightwing blocs is not an inevitability. While the parties right of the centre considered as a block won more votes and seats in the 2019 elections, voters in Madrid did not cast their ballots for specific coalitions; they just determined the composition of the regional assembly.  The election result gave Cs the role of kingmaker. Being allegedly a centrist liberal party, Cs had two choices: a) joining the centre-left party that won a plurality and entering a coalition government led by a prestigious professor and a former Education minister, propoed up by a leftwing democrátic party advocating ecologism and feminism; b) joining the rightwing party that came second with its worst result ever, after many years in government and multiple corruption scandals, led by an unqualified and fanatic scion of Esperanza Aguirre and propoed up by the likes of Trump, Bolsonaro and Franco. Voters have already punished Albert Rivera, who could have been a powerful deputy PM in a government led by Pedro Sánchez but opted for confrontation and sectarianism paving the way for the far right. It seems unlikely that Inés Arrimadas will manage to save Cs despite her efforts

2) Our model in federalism should be Germany and not the USA. Decentralizing income and inheritance taxes fosters inequality and the concentration of wealth in a few areas to the detriment of the rest. The concentration of wealth in Madrid is to the detriment of the rest of the country. The prosperity of Madrid will be sustained on a firmer ground if the other regions can thrive as well, otherwise the capital could be like a disproportionately big head over a weak and feeble body. On the other hand; it's important in times of crisis that the rich pay taxes and the policies of the Madrid regional government alongside the imperfect Spanish tax system give too much advantages to the top earners.  That's unfair and must be reformed

3) Tax rates and fiscal balances are different issues. Madrid, -alongside Catalonia, Valencia and the Balearic Islands- pays a higher amount in taxes than the investment received in return, while Andalusia and other poor regions receive more than they pay. Basque Country and Navarra receive apparently slightly more, which is an advantage considering they are wealthier than average. Valencia is regarded the least favored region by the current financing system and its regional government has comisioned studies analyzing the impact of the Madrid's"tax oadis" un the rest of Spain. The question is to prevent the excessive concentration of wealth and the subsequent territorial imbalances; that's the reason why tax harmonization is neccessary and the rich folks in Madrid should pay more taxes. The amount that Basque Country and Navarra put into the joint fund can be negotiated, eventually


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 27, 2020, 07:45:01 PM
Velasco simplemente es un hackish lo he dicho desde siempre. Lol imagina creer que los votantes de Cs querían un gobierno con el Psoe.

Solo mira lo que dice de el supuesto "castigo a Rivera", Cs obtuvo su mejor resultado histórico después de la foto de colon, no antes. Ese supuesto "castigo" sin fundamento alguno, se debió en gran medida a la vuelta de votantes de Cs al PP o a Vox. De ser cierto ese supuesto "castigo" por apoyar a la derecha, entonces esos votantes habrían acudido en masa al Psoe, el partido que Velasco define como "Benevolente de centro izquierda (Con el mayor caso de corrupción de la historia de España y además de terrorismo institucionalizado), no a la "extrema derecha" de Vox y el PP.

Lo suyo me imagino que sería usar el inglés aquí no? Yo también me sentiría más cómodo en español pero es lo que hay. Aunque sea por educación al resto de foreros.

That being said...

First of all, Velasco is a perfectly fine poster with whom I agree on some topics and disagree on others, just like everyone else. He is far from the biggest hack on the forum.

Regarding a PSOE-Cs deal, I will note that a big amount of Cs voters outright didn't vote in November 2019. Sure, a lot of them went to PP and Vox because they feared a deal with PSOE and Cs last ditch flip flops. But an amount just as large stayed at home on election day because they were disappointed at the so-called centrists not doing a deal with PSOE.

The 2nd group is arguably smaller than the first, but not by that much. Polling from the time gave roughly a 60-40 split between those who wanted Cs to stick with Sanchez rejection, and those who wanted a PSOE-Cs deal.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Velasco on November 28, 2020, 03:49:17 PM
Voters had very little reasons to fear a PSOE-Cs deal after the November 2019 elections, given that Albert Rivera made clear that Pedro Sánchez was the Public Enemy Number One. How can you think that Rivera is going to join the leader of "La Banda" when he refuses to have a courtesy meeting with him at La Moncloa (even Pablo Casado went there when Sánchez invited him, for God's sake!)

The reasons for the success in April 2019 are related to the disintegration of the PP after the Gurtel ruling and the success of the no-confidence motion, in addition to the weak leadership of Pablo Casado. Rivera almost became the leader of the Spanish Right, falling short by some 300k votes. However, that result might seem underwhelming considering that Cs led some national polls at the peak of the Catalan conflict. The picture of the three leaders of the Right at Colón Square led Sánchez to call elections and helped the socialists to succeed.

There are several post-election analyses on vote transfers. Acording to Sociométrica 19% of the Cs voters switched ro  PP in November, 20% to Vox, 4% to PSOE and 30% didn't show up. Figures vary slightly depending on the pollster, but not so much

The PP regained nearly 1 million voters from Cs. In all likelihood former PP voters coming back. Remember that the campaign of Pablo Casado had a slightly more moderate tone. That helped to regain those voters, but also favored transfers to VOX in  the polarized environment of those days (and Rivera contributed a lot in that). The gains from Cs were higher than the losses VOX, so the PP improved slightly its disastrous April result

Some 400k switched from Cs to VOX. In all likelihood these voters are more nationalist or centralist and contrary to peripheral nationalists and separatists

Some 250k switched from CS to PSOE, much les than stratehists at La Moncloa were hoping to catch

More than 1 million didn't show up and stayed at home. Analysts think these voters are mostly centrists disappointed by polarization. Centrist voters are more volatile and prone to stay at home than voters places closer to the extremes

In my opinion, the strategy of polarization followed by Rivera was a big failure that provoked: a) his own polítical demise in poly 6 months; b) the radicalization of the rightwing bloc with the rise the far right

Pedro Sánchez and his inner circle are guilty for that electoral repetition that nobody wanted, but certainly Rivera's intransigence paved the way for the likes of Trump in Spain. On the other hand, I never believed Rivera was a centrist



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Velasco on November 29, 2020, 02:53:45 AM
"American-style libertarianism comes to Spain"

https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2020-11-27/american-style-libertarianism-comes-to-spain.html

Quote
The restrictions applied by governments around the world to address the coronavirus pandemic have triggered ubiquitous popular protests. In Spain, the first ones began on May 10, on Núñez de Balboa street, in the upscale Salamanca district of Madrid.

Others have since followed, besides those staged by professional sectors; there have been protests by the extreme right, by coronavirus deniers and even by vandals, not to mention the marches organized specifically by the far-right party Vox. What they all have in common is the word “freedom” in their slogans. The concept is striking – it clashes with defending the general public interest with regard to controlling the virus. It is also an exotic concept within the Spanish political scene, which is unaccustomed to the extreme demand for individual freedom that holds such sway in the US.

is a concept has been incorporated into the general discourse adopted by the Spanish opposition, which has for months been accusing the center-left government of taking advantage of the pandemic to establish something akin to an authoritarian regime (...)
  

As certain polítical analyst said recently, Spain could be a funny place if we forget the coronavirus crisis. We have the Catalan separatists advocating tax harmonization (the idea is not theirs: socialists Ximo Puig and Susana Diaz taised the question previously), Spanish unitarians advocating tax decentralization and the heirs of Franco crying "freedom"




Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Former President tack50 on November 29, 2020, 06:54:28 AM
You know the old saying that "Libertarians are Republicans that like to smoke weed"?. Well seems like we are doing it the opposite way around :P


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Former President tack50 on December 03, 2020, 10:29:32 AM
So today the Spanish budget finally passed the Congress of Deputies. It still needs to pass the Senate but that should be comparatively easy (and if needed, the Congress can override the Senate anyways)

The vote ended up going like this:

Aye: 188 (PSOE, UP, ERC, Bildu, PNV, Más País, Compromís, NCa, PRC, TEx and PDECat*
Nay: 154 (PP, Vox, Cs, CUP, CC, UPN, Foro and JxCat*)
Abstain: 1 (BNG)

Here is a list of the main changes the budget brings:

> Income Tax is increased for high earners: Goes up by 3 points for salaries over 200k€ and by a further 2 points on salaries over 300k€
> Wealth Tax increase: Goes up by 1 point for people with over 10 million € in wealth
> Loopholes regarding corporate tax are closed
> Real Estate Investment Trusts must pay at least 15% in corporate taxes

> Pensions will be raised: Standard pensions go up by 0.9% and "non contributive pensions" (intended for widows who were stay at home mums their entire lives and what not, generally lower than regular pensions) go up by 1.8%. This is despite inflation in Spain being negative in 2020 (because COVID)
> Tax deductions for private pension plans are cut

> University scolarship money is increased by 250 million
> Paternity leave is increased: It will now be equal to maternity leave at 16 weeks, with 100% pay.

> IPREM (an income value used to calculate certain benefits) goes up by 5%, so more people will be able to request public funds
> Local administrations and autonomous communities will be allowed to impose rent control if they want. Already existing rent control bills (most notably in Catalonia) are grandfathered in.

https://www.20minutos.es/noticia/4432564/0/limites-al-precio-del-alquiler-ampliacion-del-ingreso-minimo-y-subida-fiscal-las-claves-del-proyecto-de-presupuestos/?autoref=true
https://www.20minutos.es/noticia/4498192/0/el-congreso-da-luz-verde-a-los-presupuestos-y-el-gobierno-ya-acaricia-su-aprobacion-final/?autoref=true

Regarding PDECat/JxCat*:

Spoiler alert! Click Show to show the content.




Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: second state of alarm declared
Post by: Velasco on December 04, 2020, 09:26:14 AM
Minister asks for probe of online chat where ex-army officials discuss ‘executing 26 million Spaniards (that is to say all the eligible citizens not voting for the right)

https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2020-12-04/spains-defense-minister-asks-for-probe-of-online-chat-where-ex-army-officials-discuss-executing-26-million-spaniards.html


Quote
 Spain’s Defense Minister, Margarita Robles, has sent prosecutors at the Madrid regional High Court information about a WhatsApp chat group in which retired military officials appear to show support for military uprisings and mass executions.

Robles is asking prosecutors to determine whether the messages exchanged by members of the 19th graduating class of the Air Force Academy constitute a crime “by individuals who additionally may have posed as members of the military in active duty service without being so,” said ministry sources.

The minister’s request is backed by information published on Wednesday by the online daily Infolibre, which reported two messages in the private chat group as stating the following: “There is no other choice but to start executing 26 million sons-of-bitches,” and: “What a pity not to be in active duty service in order to reroute a hot flight [carrying real ammunition] from Bárdenas [firing range] to the headquarters of those sons-of-bitches,” alluding to the separatist organization Catalan National Assembly (ANC), which played a leading role in the 2017 attempt at the Catalonia region’s unilateral secession from Spain. These two quotes have been attributed to Division General Francisco Beca Casanova and to Colonel Andrés González Espinar, respectively (...)
 

VOX MP Macarena Olona said in Congress that "of course" these retired army officers -whom also sent a letter to King Felipe warning about the dangers of the "social-communist" government- are "our people", in case anyone has doubts conceening the undemocratic nature of the far-right party

https://elpais.com/espana/2020-12-02/vox-sobre-la-carta-de-los-exmilitares-al-rey-por-supuesto-que-es-nuestra-gente.html


In other news, the Supreme Court revoked yhe one prison regime granted to the Catalan separatist leaders

https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2020-12-04/supreme-court-revokes-open-prison-regime-granted-to-jailed-catalan-separatist leaders


https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2020-12-04/supreme-court-revokes-open-prison-regime-granted-to-jailed-catalan-separatist-leaders.html

Quote
Catalan separatist leaders who were convicted for their role in the 2017 unilateral breakaway attempt will remain in prison after the Spanish Supreme Court revoked the open regime granted to them by the Catalan government. That move had been appealed and was pending a decision by the court..

Supreme Court justices said it is “premature” for the prisoners to be moved to a flexible regime, and that more time needs to elapse in order to assess the inmates’ progress, especially in light of the fact that they have served less than half of their prison terms.

The alternatives for the jailed politicians are either pardon from the government or a reform of the penal code abolishing the obsolete charge of sedition


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on December 22, 2020, 03:45:03 AM
Deputy premier Pere Aragonès signed yesterday the decree calling elections in Catalonia on February14 next year

Leading Candidates

Cs: Carlos Carrizosa, the spokesman in the Catalan Parliament replacing the candidate-elect Lorena Roldan (who was intended to be the replacement of Inés Arrimadas) as a measure of damage control. Bad prospects for the oranges in this election.


ERC: Pere Aragonès, deputy premier until premier Quim Torra was disqualified from office. "Interim premier" since then. Backed by party leader Oriol Junqueras, who is in jail since 2017. ERC is leading in the polls.

JUNTS: Laura Borràs, member of the Spanish Congress and minister of Culture in the regional government. Party leader is former premier Carles Puigdemont, who lives in Waterloo (Belgium) since 2017 in a self imposed exile. Puigdemont announced he will the head of the Barcelona list, but not the candidate

PSC-PSOE: Salvador Illa. The candidacy of the Health minister and PSC's second-in-command was announced by the end of 2020. Illa replaces the veteran secretary general Miquel Iceta,un an attempt to take advantage of Illa's high visibility during the pandemic to mobilize voters and boost the PSC chances

CATCOMU-PODEM: Jessica Albiach, the leader of the Catalan branch of Podemos. Not good prospects given that the natural leader of the  'comuns' ("commons") and Barcelona mayor Ada Colau is not at her best moment

CUP-Guanyem: Dolors Sabater, a fomer Badalona mayor and leader of Guanyem Catalunya with a profile higher than the people placed on top by the CUP in previous elections

PP: Alejandro Fernández, replacing Badalona mayor and 2017 candidate Xavier García Albiol. The contest between Cs, PP and Vox in Catalonia could be tight and it will have repercusions at national level. The PP hired the former Cs candidate Lorena Roldan, a surprise move announced the same day it was known that Salvador Illa would be the PSC candidate

PDeCAT: Angels Chacón, a former member of the regional government who was fired by Quim Torra after the split between JxCAT (Junts) and PDeCAT. The heir of Convergencia will struggle to win seats

VOX: ignacio Garriga, whom intervened briefly in the debate of the Vox's no confidence motion introducing Santiago Abascal. VOX will win seats in all likelihood according to polls

PNC: Marta Pascal, former coordinator of the PDeCAT whom played a key role in the success of the no confidence motion against Mariano Rajoy in 2018 and was fired by Carles Puigdemont afterwards. It'd be a surprise that Pascal enters in the next parliament, despite she is regarded a brave and valuable polítician by some people (mostly non-separatist). Pragmatic centre-right sovereigntism appears weak and divided



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on December 22, 2020, 02:58:53 PM
Last CEO poll (total;135 seats)

ERC 35 (23.0%)
JxCAT 30-32 (19.6%)
PSC 25 (18.5%)
Cs 14-16 (11 6%)
CUP 8-9 (6 4%)
CatComu 7-9 (6.9%)
PP 7-9 (6.0%)
Vox 4-6 (4.6%)
PDeCAT 0-1 (1.9%)



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on December 23, 2020, 06:23:31 AM
The 2021 budget is formally approved after a vote that took place yesterday right in the Senate. The Upper House rejected all amendments and the budget plan was passed with 145 votes in favour, 118 against and 2 abstentions

Madrid mayor José Luis Martinez Almeida (PP) signed a budget deal with Vox spokesman Javier Ortega Smith. Deputy mayor Begoña Villacis (Cs) was not present in the signing before the photographers, despite the budget plan is endorsed by her party. Almeida argued that the presence of Villacis was not neccessary because PP and Cs form a single government.

Recently the Spanish Congress approved the first euthanasia bill in our country with a broad majority. This time Cs voted in favour while PP, Vox and UPN opposed

https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2020-12-17/spanish-congress-approves-first-euthanasia-bill-with-broad-majority.html

Quote
In a historic vote, Spain’s lower house of parliament on Thursday (Dec. 17) gave majority backing to the country’s first euthanasia law.

The bill regulating the right to a dignified death attracted cross-party support and was approved on first reading with 198-138 votes and two abstentions. It will now go to the Senate, and if no amendments are introduced, it could go into effect in the early months of 2021. This would make Spain the sixth country in the world to recognize this right after the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Canada and New Zealand. In Switzerland, assisted suicide “from non-selfish motives” is legal.

The law will allow people suffering from a serious, incurable condition to request and receive assistance to end their lives. The petition must be made on four occasions and be backed by medical reports, and healthcare workers will retain their right to conscientious objection. After the procedure is approved by an evaluating committee, the patient must give final consent again. Supporters said these provisions guarantee that euthanasia will be an option but never an imposition as its detractors have claimed (...)

 The leader of Ciudadanos (Citizens), Inés Arrimadas, said it was an honor to support the bill, which began as an initiative of leftist parties. “We are liberal and we support liberty,” she said, asking detractors to refrain from turning the bill’s contents into “a caricature.”



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on December 23, 2020, 11:41:00 AM
Recent nationwide opinion polls show signs of weariness in the electoral base affecting the PSOE-UP coalition government, which is unsurprising given the dramatic context.The PSOE remains relatively stable gaining some voters from UP,  but according to the CIS it'd be losing moderate voters to Cs (the type ofvoter disliking deals with ERC and Bildu still listening to Felipe González). Surprisingly Pedro Sánchez gets his highest approval rate among the UP voters, even surpassing the score of Pablo Iglesias. The PSOE is polling between 27.4% (lnvymark) and 29.5% (CIS) in the most recent polls.  The tactical manoeuvres of Pablo Iglesias in order to diferentiate from the socialists appealing to republicanism, the "Plural Spain" or social policies to tackle poverty are not paying off. UP voters appear demobilized with some of them prone to switch to PSOE or not showing up. UP is polling between 9.5% (GAD3) and 10.8% (CIS). Voters right of the centre are more mobilized in the polarized environment. The PP is seemingly gaining ground without major Vox losses.  PP is polling between 19 2% (CIS) and 25.2% (GAD3); Vox is polling between 13.1% (GAD3) and 16.1% (Invymark). The Cs voter base is the most volatile and hard to predict;  I'd take the CIS double digits with a grain of salt. Cs is polling between 7.1% (GAD3) and 10.5% (CIS)

Once the budget has been passed with the support of ERC and Bildu, ensuring stability for the next couple of years, the tactical moves of the PSOE will be driven to appeal its moderate base. Disssent between coalition partners is not well received by public opinion, so the governments needs to convey an image of unity. But on the other hand the minor partner UP needs to struggle against the Sánchez 's bear hug...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on December 23, 2020, 01:59:41 PM
To get an idea of Catalonia's political geography, here is a map I recently did of the 2017 election by block (secessionists vs unionists; UP was ignored):

()

The graduations go in blocks of 10, so the lightest colour is 40-50%; then 50-60%; etc

Most unionist county of Catalonia (only one where they break 60%) is the Aran Valley in the Pyrinees, though the bigger unionist counties over 50% are Baix Llobregat (Barcelona suburbs), Tarragones (Tarragona) and Baix Penedes (coastal county near Tarragona, surprisingly unionist for a rural-ish area)

Most secessionist areas are of course the rurals, with Pla de l'Estany (small county in Girona province), Priorat (inland county in Tarragona province) and Pallars Sobira (in the Pyrinees); though most of inland rural Catalonia is super secessionist anyways. Only exceptions being Segrià (home to the provincial capital and border town of Lleida) and Alta Ribagorça (very small population, probably home to rich skiers from Castille or with influence from the Aran Valley or something)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on December 23, 2020, 03:55:36 PM
Breaking news: Carles Puigdemont announced he will be the Junts head of list in Barcelona, in order to support the candidacy of Laura Borràs. In other words, Puigdemont puts his name but he has no plans to return to Catalonia risking an arrest. Puigdemont was already the head of list from exile in the 2017 Catalan elections and in the 2019 EP elections, with remarkable success in both cases. He is undeniably the most popular figure in the Catalan independence  movement, someone akin to a legitimist populist  

In other news, the Senate ratified the Education Law sponsored by minister Isabel Celaá. I think I heard a claxon demonstration against this bill the day before yesterday


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on December 24, 2020, 12:00:40 AM

Most unionist county of Catalonia (only one where they break 60%) is the Aran Valley in the Pyrinees, though the bigger unionist counties over 50% are Baix Llobregat (Barcelona suburbs), Tarragones (Tarragona) and Baix Penedes (coastal county near Tarragona, surprisingly unionist for a rural-ish area)

Most secessionist areas are of course the rurals, with Pla de l'Estany (small county in Girona province), Priorat (inland county in Tarragona province) and Pallars Sobira (in the Pyrinees); though most of inland rural Catalonia is super secessionist anyways. Only exceptions being Segrià (home to the provincial capital and border town of Lleida) and Alta Ribagorça (very small population, probably home to rich skiers from Castille or with influence from the Aran Valley or something)

I don't think there are important ski resorts in Alta Ribagorça, but I might be wrong. Val d'Aran is special because it's a comarca* geographically isolated from the rest of Catalonia; a valley located on the other side of the Pyrenees looking towards France (Upper Garonne). The Aranese (Occitan) is a proper language different from Catalan or French. There are ski resorts in Val d'Aran and a sizeable amount of population coming from other Spanish regions. Alta Ribagorça is connected to Val d'Aran through the Vielha tunnel. It's sparsely populated due to the rugged mountain terrain. Peoole there speaks a Catalan dialect with some Aragonese elements and the economy is based on livestock, agriculture and rural tourism

*Aran is a  semi-autonomous territorial entity within Catalonia; governed by a General Council established in 1991. The main parties are Unity of Aran (UA, local chapter of the PSC) and Aranese Democratic Convergence (CDA, it was the local chapter of CDC). There's also local chapter of ERC called Occitan Republican Left (ERO)

 The Aranese General Council has 13 seats allocated in 6 wards (terçons) with 1, 2; 3 or 4 members. The result of the 2019 elections was 9 councilors for the UA (¡ed by incumbent Sindic d'Aran Francés Boya) and 4 councilors for the CDA (!ed by former Sindic Carles Barrera) . Amassa Aran, led by the occitan nationalist and former CUP deputy Mireia Boya, came on third place.

https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleccions_al_Consell_General_d%27Aran_de_2019
.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on December 25, 2020, 11:07:00 AM
There was certain expectation around the words of king Felipe in his traditional Christmas Eve speech. People speculated whether he would make veiled or more explicit mentions to his father's behaviour

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-12-25/king-felipe-vi-ethical-principles-are-above-all-other-considerations-including-personal-or-family-ones.html

Quote
Moral and ethical principles “are an obligation for everyone without exception” and “are above all other considerations, including personal or family ones.” Those were the words uttered by Spain’s King Felipe VI on Thursday night during his televised Christmas Eve speech, in a veiled reference to the allegations of financial wrongdoing that have been mounting against his father, former monarch Juan Carlos I. The king dedicated just 87 words to the issue from a total of 1,697, the longest Christmas speech so far of his reign. The majority of the text was aimed at transmitting encouragement to a society after the suffering caused this year by the coronavirus pamic, with Felipe calling for a “great national effort” to overcome the consequences of the health crisis.  

PSOE backs this speech*, among other things because its contents were supervised by the government and negotiated between deputy PM Carmen Calvo and the royal household. The support of PP, Vox and Cs to the monarch is taken for granted. However, Unidas Podemos and the peripheral nationalists criticize that Felipe was not explicit enough with regard to his father Juan Carlos. Different opinions on the King's speech enlarge distance between PSOE and UP, entitles elDiario.es

*EDIT: PSOE backs this speech officially, bi
Ut apparently some ministers and party members complain privately because the king is not taking enough steps and the monarchy splits the PSOE in two

The opinion in the tweet posted below is more or less coincident with mine,  but on the other hand my criticism does not entail I endorse Podemos on this (the strategy is not paying off and we are not even close to proclaim a republic). The main issue should be demanding transparency and accountability to the head of state and not sterile discussions between monarchists and republicans






Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on December 26, 2020, 07:20:07 AM
Given the current rethoric and debate about the monarchy, I wonder if a constitutional amendment to repeal immunity would be able to pass in the nearby future.

Cs has at times paid some lip service to such a reform, and I imagine all the secessionists as well as PSOE/UP would support such a reform. Not like it matters since PP+Vox alone have just barely enough MPs to block even the smallest of constitutional reforms (reforming the monarchy requires 234 votes to even begin the process; all non PP/Vox parties hold only 209).

To be fair an argument I've seen from some right wingers seems to be along the lines of "I am in favour of a Republic, but I am not in favour of Pablo Iglesias' Democratic Bolivarian Republic of Spain". Which seems like a very cheap excuse to me but still.

However I could easily see Cs using an argument like that to vote down such a reform.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: windjammer on December 26, 2020, 07:28:39 AM
Juan Carlos should be prosecuted. But Felipe is innocent and he shouldn't paid for his father's crimes.
Long live King Felipe and long live the monarchy.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on December 26, 2020, 08:19:57 AM
Juan Carlos should be prosecuted. But Felipe is innocent and he shouldn't paid for his father's crimes.

I heard some people stating the same opinion, including members of my family. The issue is that, even if Felipe is not personally responsible (I have no reasons to think he is guilty, but he had knowledge of his father's behaviour before it surfaced), he represents a dynasty and an hereditary institution. I'm not saying he should pay for his father, but I think there exists an institutional responsibility and he should take more resolute actions for the sake of the continuity of constitutional monarchy. For instance, Felipe could take the initiative in the reform of the institution he embodies. Rightwing parties could not oppose a constitutioonal amendment if the king is supporting reforms

Apparently the popularity of King Felipe and the support for monarchy are higher now than months before, even though the approval rate of Juan Carlos is abysmal. My impression is that there are issues much more pressing than monarchy vs republic in the reyes of public opinion.  However, ir would be a mistake thinking that secrecy and legal onviolability can continue. Also, the monarchy continues being divisive across ideological and territorial* lines and the Spanish Right is doing no favors to the king

*Felipe is very unpopular in Catalonia and this is a huge problem for him


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on December 26, 2020, 08:52:19 AM
Juan Carlos should be prosecuted. But Felipe is innocent and he shouldn't paid for his father's crimes.

I heard some people stating this the same opinion, including members of my family. The issue is that, even if Felipe is not personally responsible (I have no reasons to think he is guilty, but he had knowledge of his father's behaviour before it surfaced), he represents a dynasty and an hereditary institution. I'm not saying he should pay for his father, but I think there exists an institutional responsibility and he should take more resolute actions for the sake of the continuity of constitutional monarchy. For instance, Felipe could take the initiative in the reform of the institution he embodies. Rightwing parties could not oppose a constitutioonal amendment if the king is supporting reforms

Apparently the popularity of King Felipe and the support for monarchy are higher now than months before, even though the approval rate of Juan Carlos is abysmal. My impression is that there are issues much more pressing than monarchy vs republic in the reyes of public opinion.  However, ir would be a mistake thinking that secrecy and legal onviolability can continue. Also, the monarchy continues being divisive across ideological and territorial* lines and the Spanish Right is doing no favors to the king

*Felipe is very unpopular in Catalonia and this is a huge problem for him

To be fair, given its origins and all the events that have happened in Spain since circa 2007; any king is going to be deeply unpopular in Catalonia/Basque Country as well as among many parts of the Spanish left (99% of UP and at least 50% of PSOE)

The king (much like the 1978 consensus) isn't going to have the sky high approval ratings it used to have in the 90s and 00s.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on December 26, 2020, 09:31:37 AM
[
To be fair, given its origins and all the events that have happened in Spain since circa 2007; any king is going to be deeply unpopular in Catalonia/Basque Country as well as among many parts of the Spanish left (99% of UP and at least 50% of PSOE)

The king (much like the 1978 consensus) isn't going to have the sky high approval ratings it used to have in the 90s and 00s.

Felipe needs to struggle to be seen as the king of all Spaniards, regardless his approval rates among UP and ERC voters. He also needs to improve his image in Catalonia and Basque Country. Granted, he's not going to be loved by leftwing republicans in the periphery nor amass nearly universal consensus as in the past. But he has to try harder anyway and avoid the reactionary bear hug. Felipe is already being perceived as "the king of the right" and this is potentially very dangerous for the continuity of constitutional monarchy, as well as the deep wound of Catalonia


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on December 29, 2020, 05:09:03 PM
I'm sceptical about the willingness of king Felipe, but Pedro Sánchez said he leaves the door open to a new law that modernizes the monarchy. Obviously the king has no legislative power, but Sánchez will never do anything without the consent of the monarch. Little signs from there ATM, regardless what the PM ssys

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2020-12-29/spains-pm-opens-the-door-to-a-new-law-covering-the-crown-in-a-bid-to-further-modernize-the-monarchy.html

Quote
Speaking during a press conference on Tuesday, Spain’s Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez offered a summary of his government’s achievements over the past year, citing a report prepared by the seat of power, La Moncloa, and backed by a group of a dozen or so experts that concludes that of 1,238 commitments, 23.4% have been achieved and a further 90% are underway.

During the Socialist Party (PSOE) leader’s lengthy appearance today, he stated that the government – a coalition with junior partner Unidas Podemos – is working on a project to continue the modernization of the Spanish monarchy that has been put in motion by King Felipe VI. Questioned by reporters, Sánchez also left open the possibility of a new law that would cover the Crown, although he did not go into more detail. “We are going step by step,” the prime minister said, describing the king’s Christmas Eve speech this year as “brave.” There was much expectation ahead of the traditional televised appearance by the monarch on December 24 given the allegations of financial impropriety that have been mounting this year against his father, emeritus king Juan Carlos I.

The prime minister opened the door to new developments regarding the monarchy in the coming months, but also stopped short of giving more details ahead of La Zarzuela royal household confirming what steps would be taken.

“The king wants a constitutional monarchy that is adapted to 21st-century Spain,” Sánchez said on Tuesday. “Renewal, accountability… that’s where Felipe VI is working. We are going step by step. And you will be getting more information about how this road map for the renewal of the crown in terms of transparency and leading by example as it materializes,” he added

Sanchez said the coalition government will last, despite the "different voices "

Sensible issue: Brussels urges Spain to reform pensions and jobs in return for EU funds. "We are not in 2012: we are not asking for fiscal adjustments that could have negative short-term effects, nor are we imposing a solution. But Spain must specify measures" according to some anonymous source

https://english.elpais.com/economy_and_business/2020-12-08/brussels-urges-spain-to-reform-pensions-and-jobs-in-return-for-eu-funds.html

Quote
The European Commission wants Spain to address its unresolved structural problems on three fronts – pensions, jobs and market unity – and it is demanding to see a credible and coherent plan setting out Madrid’s reform agenda as part of the deal to release a recently approved package of European stimulus aid.

Reform” is a loaded word, because in recent years it has been used as a euphemism to avoid the term “cuts,” and because it is associated with the austerity imposed during the 2008 financial crisis by the so-called Troika made up of the European Commission, the European Central Bank (ECB) and the International Monetary Fund (IMF).

Brussels has since changed its approach: instead of seeking to impose reforms, it is asking countries to approve structural changes in exchange for a flood of money included in Next Generation EU, a European recovery fund aimed at addressing the fallout of the coronavirus crisis that will allocate €750 million in total, half of it in grants. Spain has secured €140 billion of that amount, making it one of the biggest beneficiaries.
 

Jailed Catalan separatists’ prospects of early release grow dim

https://english.elpais.com/politics/catalonia_independence/2020-12-24/jailed-catalan-separatists-prospects-of-early-release-grow-dim.html

Quote
(...) A government pardon would be the quickest path to freedom, but it is also the most complicated. Although the decision lies exclusively with the central executive, it requires a report by the Supreme Court that will not be ready before the end of the year, and possibly not by February 14 either, the expected date for regional elections in Catalonia.

The four prosecutors who took part in the 2019 trial feel there is “no acceptable legal reason” for granting clemency to the jailed separatists, and they have suggested that such a move would be tied to “political agreements.” Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez was voted back into the prime minister’s office following the November 2019 election partly thanks to the Catalan Republican Left (ERC), whose leader Oriol Junqueras is one of the jailed separatists. More recently, this party also provided much-needed support for the government’s budget plan (...)

Unlike other issues such as monarchy, raise of mínimum wage or reform of pensions, apparently PSOE and UP agree on this delicate question for the sake of reconciliation. However, ir seems very unlikely (virtually impossible) a government pardon before Catalan elections  on Valentine's Day next year. A pardon will raise a fierce opposition from the right and elements of the judiciary (see the assesment of the prosecutors)



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on December 30, 2020, 02:57:44 PM
Breaking: Health minister Salvador Illa will be the PSC leading candidate in the upcpming Cstalan elections, replacing the veteran secretary general Miquel Iceta. This move has been apparently planned months ago, although socialists always dismissed rumours. The main reasons to place Illa are his current popularity and the relationship with ERC. Salvador Illa has become unexpectedly a popular figure after the outbreak of the Covid-19 with approval rates hIgher than those of Miquel Iceta. Also, the relationship between Salvador Illa and Oriol Junqueras or the ERC leadership is more fluid. One of the main roles of Salvador Illa was actually participating in the round table with the Catalan government, a task well suited for a quite and discreet peacemaker. Before the pandemic Health was regarded a light ministry, given the high degree of decentralization with nearly all competences devolved to the regions. This changed dramatically since March, when  Illa took the centrilized command of the Health Emergency under the first state of alarm. On the other hand, the relationship between Miquel Iceta and Oriol Junqueras is tense and the enmiity of ERC towards him led the party to vero his election as senator by the Psrliament of Catalonia, frustrating the intent of Pedro Sanchez to make his loyal friend Speaker of the Upper House.

Salvador Illa remains as Heath minister for a while, but he will be eventually replaced. Incumbent Territorial Policy minister Carolina Darias would be the favourite to take the Health portfolio  while Miquel Iceta could enter the government in replacement of Darias


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Lumine on December 30, 2020, 04:01:20 PM
Lorena Roldan has also defected from C's to PP, yet another blow to Arrimadas. The way things are going, I wonder if C's will even be able to contest the next general election.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Skye on December 30, 2020, 04:12:17 PM
Breaking: Health minister Salvador Illa will be the PSC leading candidate in the upcpming Cstalan elections, replacing the veteran secretary general Miquel Iceta. This move has been apparently planned months ago, although socialists always dismissed rumours. The main reasons to place Illa are his current popularity and the relationship with ERC. Salvador Illa has become unexpectedly a popular figure after the outbreak of the Covid-19 with approval rates hIgher than those of Miquel Iceta. Also, the relationship between Salvador Illa and Oriol Junqueras or the ERC leadership is more fluid. One of the main roles of Salvador Illa was actually participating in the round table with the Catalan government, a task well suited for a quite and discreet peacemaker. Before the pandemic Health was regarded a light ministry, given the high degree of decentralization with nearly all competences devolved to the regions. This changed dramatically since March, when  Illa took the centrilized command of the Health Emergency under the first state of alarm. On the other hand, the relationship between Miquel Iceta and Oriol Junqueras is tense and the enmiity of ERC towards him led the party to vero his election as senator by the Psrliament of Catalonia, frustrating the intent of Pedro Sanchez to make his loyal friend Speaker of the Upper House.

Salvador Illa remains as Heath minister for a while, but he will be eventually replaced. Incumbent Territorial Policy minister Carolina Darias would be the favourite to take the Health portfolio  while Miquel Iceta could enter the government in replacement of Darias

This honestly surprised me, and I'm not sure if it's because I'm not paying too much attention to politics atm, or if it was a real surprise.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on December 30, 2020, 06:31:32 PM
.
This honestly surprised me, and I'm not sure if it's because I'm not paying too much attention to politics atm, or if it was a real surprise.

I've been hearing or reading that Salvador Illa could be the candidate for months, so it's not very surprising for me. However, we are in a very delicate moment with the start of the vaccination campaign and a third covid wave at the gates.  Right now Illa is not excercising a centralized command but coordinating the regional administrations. But his task is very important and delicate, as well as not compatible with his candidacy. He should be replaced by Carolina Darias as soon as possible (Darias has been sttending coordination meetings and seems the natural replacement). Said this Salvador Illa looks like a good candidate atm and some analysts say he could catch votes in the centre from Cs. Miquel Iceta is toasted because he had to deal with the defence of the implementation of article 155 (suspension of regional autonomy in autumn 2017) and some nationalists will never forgive him. If the socialists are looking for distension in the Catalan conflict and maybe coalition deals with ERC (very unlikely right now), Illa could be better. From what I've heard, Illa is a very adaptable individual who has adopted firm stances against nationalists at times, but he is open to dialog and listens to contraries. People in the opposition criticize his management of the pandemic, while admitting he is very polite and well-mannered (despite he suffered harsh atracks in parliament). Illa is by no means a charismatic polítician, though

Lorena Roldan has also defected from C's to PP, yet another blow to Arrimadas. The way things are going, I wonder if C's will even be able to contest the next general election.

Cold revenge.  Lorena Roldan was elected in a primary election and replaced somewhat arbitrarily by Arrimadas, in order to place the more combative Carlos Carrizosa and save what they can. Roldan stepped aside and didn't say a word until now. She will be placed second in the PP list for Barcelona. This move resembles the defection of Angel Garrido  (briefly Madrid premier after Cristina Cifuentes) from PP to Cs when he was relegated in favour of Isabel Diaz Ayuso. Now Garrido is a member of the Ayuso government

Arrimadas has been performing a complicate dance (openness to deal with PSOE, while maintaining the coalition governments with the PP) and facing criticism in her party because of this. I'm not her fan nor like some of her methods, but appreciate the efforts to re-position Cs on the centre. It doesn't look good for Cs right now and who knows ,the plans of Rivera'for the near future. Rumours of next moves in Andalusia or Madrid. Risk of disintegration if there's a massive collapse in Catalonia




Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on December 30, 2020, 08:39:20 PM
To be honest given how he has been the face of the Covid response, I think Illa is a bad candidate. Under normal circumstances the Healthcare ministry would be a good pick, but not during a pandemic. And Spain is not exactly a country that can be proud of its response to Covid, we are literally on par with Donald Trump's US in terms of being bad at handling Covid in terms of numbers.

I guess opinions like this must not be too common given PSC has replaced Iceta with Illa, but still Iceta seems like the better pick to me.

The best pick may have been to just pick a random PSC backbencher; or better yet some high-profile mayor from one of the suburbs of Barcelona.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on December 31, 2020, 07:07:43 AM
To be honest given how he has been the face of the Covid response, I think Illa is a bad candidate. Under normal circumstances the Healthcare ministry would be a good pick, but not during a pandemic. And Spain is not exactly a country that can be proud of its response to Covid, we are literally on par with Donald Trump's US in terms of being bad at handling Covid in terms of numbers.

I guess opinions like this must not be too common given PSC has replaced Iceta with Illa, but still Iceta seems like the better pick to me.

The best pick may have been to just pick a random PSC backbencher; or better yet some high-profile mayor from one of the suburbs of Barcelona.

Socialists think that Salvador Ila is a good candidate because he has the second highest approval rate among the cabinet members (behind Econony minister Nadia Calviño), as well as among the Catalan politicians (behind Oriol Junqueras). I think many people appreciate his patience and good manners in the climate of permanent confrontation that prevails in Spanish politics. Certainly Spain has been hit hard by the pandemic. The question is whether people blame the Health minister and in what degree. As you know, Healthcare is devolved to the regions and the role of the central government is very límited. During the first state of alarm Salvador Illa took exceptionally the centralized command and that implied bearing the political costs. Since May illa has played a role of coordination, while the initiative was handed to the regional governments. The response to the Covid has not been uniform across Spain, not even among the regions governed by the same party (either PP or PSOE). I think that people realize and is able to see when certain regional leaders use the pandemic as a weapon, but in the end judgements are often conditioned by ideology. For instance Quim Torra was constantly attacking the central government while the handling of the pandemic by the regional governmentwas chaotic and raised protests, until the appointment of a professional to coordinate the response helped to stabilize the situation in Catalonia. Iceta is also a good candidate, but he has been in the complicated Catalan arena for some time and that implies a cost. Salvador Illa may be a revulsive that boosts somewhat the PSC chances somewhat, but I don't think socialists are going to win under him. Polls suggest that the non-nationalist voters are demobilized and many of the Cs voters in Dec. 2017 are not going to show up. However, given his visibility, traits and name recognition, Illa is better than a low profile candidate or the mayor of Hospitalet


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Skye on January 04, 2021, 01:50:57 PM
So since the Catalan Regional election is in little more than a month I wanted to do a fun little project: The results of the 2017 Election by precinct in the city of Barcelona.

Naturally, I failed miserably, since OFC the Ajuntament de Barcelona doesn't have the results available in a format that I could work with.

They did, for some reason, have the precinct results of the Nov. 2019 General Election in a format that was relatively easy to work with, so I decided to give it a go. I was an extremely tedious process but I was able to produce this:

()

So this is a map that has 3 different blocs: The Spanish Right (blue), which is composed of PP, VOX, and Cs, the Spanish Left (red), composed of the PSC and ECP, and the Catalan Nationalists (Yellow), composed of ERC, JxCat, and CUP.

I know this isn't an "ideal" way to separate the blocs. For starters, as I understand, CUP and JxCat don't exactly see eye to eye, to put it mildly. Also, ECP which isn't exactly aligned with any group on the Catalan Independence issue. There's also Más País, which got 1.6% of the vote in the city and is missing in the "Left" bloc. The Ajuntament groups the party with other minor parties into the "Other" vote category, and as such, I wasn't able to include the party with the PSOE and ECP, which would've maybe won them a few more precincts, but alas.

I felt like this was a good place to start, since PP+C's+VOX and PSOE+UP are usually grouped together in the national level, and the pro-Independence parties are kind of their own thing. Plus, eldiario.es already has a precinct map which groups PP+C's+VOX+JxCat for the overall right wing % and the rest of the parties for the overall left wing %, if you wanted a map of that.

So overall in the city, we have:

Nationalists: 40.3%
Left: 35.6% (37.2% if MP is included)
Right: 20.5%

I'd appreciate feedback if you think this is (or isn't) an acceptable way of placing the Blocs.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on January 04, 2021, 02:01:12 PM
Very nice map Skye! Congrats!. The colours are fine by me. Grácia and Eixample are really bastions of the pro-Independence. Les Cots and Sarrià are the most affluent areas of the city, right?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Skye on January 04, 2021, 02:20:51 PM
Very nice map Skye! Congrats!. The colours are fine by me. Grácia and Eixample are really bastions of the pro-Independence. Les Cots and Sarrià are the most affluent areas of the city, right?

Thank you. Yes, parts of Les Corts and Sarria are among the most affluent in the city. The PP (by itself) easily won a few precincts there.

Though the precincts around the Passeig de Gracia in the Eixample district are very affluent as well, but the right doesn't nearly have the same strength there. That said, all of the precincts there were won by JxCat instead of the more left wing ERC, so there's that.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on January 04, 2021, 02:29:30 PM
Very nice map Skye! Congrats!. The colours are fine by me. Grácia and Eixample are really bastions of the pro-Independence. Les Cots and Sara are the most affluent areas of the city, right?

Thank you. Yes, parts of Les Corts and Sarria are among the most affluent in the city. The PP (by itself) easily won a few precincts there.

Though the precincts around the Passeig de Gracia in the Eixample district are very affluent as well, but the right doesn't nearly have the same strength there. That said, all of the precincts there were won by JxCat instead of the more left wing ERC, so there's that.
Yeah, the only thing uniting ERC and Junts is independence, in the rest they are miles apart: one is a leftwing party and the other a center-right one, heir of the late CiU.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 04, 2021, 03:42:00 PM
.
I'd appreciate feedback if you think this is (or isn't) an acceptable way of placing the Blocs.

I made a map of the April 2019 elections with the same blocs, so obviously their composition is acceptable for me

Regarding the left and the so-called 'constiturionalist' bloc.

 -En Comu Podem (or Catalunya en Comu-Podem) is obviously leftwing and it's part of the coalition government (Manuel Castells, minister of Universities, was proposed by Ada Colau). Catalunya en Comu is an independent organization aliied to Podemos. Clearly CatComu is alligned with the Spanish left, although ERC seeks to attract the Colau party to the pro-independence bloc. CatComu and its voter base are neither nationalist nor pro-independence (80% of the voters oppose independence, according to some polls). Howeve it supports a referendum and the right to self-determination ("derecho a decidir"), as well as overcoming the "state of the autonomies" and turning towards some sort of confederalism. This is the so-called "third way" in the Catalan conflict, which had a rightwing representative in the now defunct Unio (its heirs are aliied to the PSC) . CatComu-Podem is not usually included in the 'constitutionalist' bloc because confederalism and referendum on independence go beyond the Spanish Constitution, but it's not a separatist party. The CatComu membership (the 'comuns') ranges between federalism and sovereigntism

-The PSC is traditionally federalist and supports a constitutioonal reform that turns Spain into a full federal state. The PSC used to have a strong 'catalanist'faction more close to nationalist stances, but many of its members defected to ERC and the 'Comuns' or disappeared in the shadows during the last 10 years. The party os usually alligned in the 'constitutionalist' bloc alongside PP and Cs, but it could actually be included in a 'central bloc' alongside CatComu and some moderate nationalists (non-separatists)

-On the other hand, placing the current incarnation of Junts per Catalunya (after 2020) in any ideological bloc is problematic. Most of the JxCAT members come from the centre-right CDC and the PDeCAT was still there in 2019. However the new Junts is a vehicle of Carles Puigdemont that rejects the legacy of Convergencia and claims to be "progressive". Junts right now is a staunchly pro-independence party with populist tones that lacks a clear ideology.

Nice map. Have you found precinct data for regional elections?

Very nice map Skye! Congrats!. The colours are fine by me. Grácia and Eixample are really bastions of the pro-Independence. Les Cots and Sarrià are the most affluent areas of the city, right?

Right. The most affluent neighbourhood un Barcelona is Pedralbes (Les Corts), followed by Sarria and Sant Gervasi. Gracia is traditionally the district with the strongest nationalist vote and the worst place for PP or Cs

The pattern that you can see in that map is the usual. The blue precincts are located in the affluent upoer city neighbourhoids, the left is stronger in the low income periphery and the middle-class neighbourhoods support the nationalists

Ciutat Vella looks interesting, azul it's apparently splitted between the left and the nationalists. The left is apparently stronger in El Raval and parrs of Barri Gotic, while nationalists win in Barceloneta (ERC stronghold) and other parts of the district. Barri Gotic is usually the strongest place for the 'alternative left' (ECP, CatComu, ICV or whatever)
  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Skye on January 04, 2021, 03:53:33 PM
Nice map. Have you found precinct data for regional elections?

Thanks for your input, as well as the added context. Catalan politics is such an exhausting topic lol.

Regarding precinct data for regional elections, the data for the 2017 election is here:

http://www.bcn.cat/estadistica/catala/dades/telec/aut/aut17/caut1004.htm

So as you can see, the data is there, but trying to copy and paste it into excel just brings up a bunch of formatting issues that I simply wasn't able to solve. Maybe it's just that I'm not that savvy with this kind of stuff, but I just couldn't do it.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Oryxslayer on January 04, 2021, 04:09:29 PM
Nice map. Have you found precinct data for regional elections?

Thanks for your input, as well as the added context. Catalan politics is such an exhausting topic lol.

Regarding precinct data for regional elections, the data for the 2017 election is here:

http://www.bcn.cat/estadistica/catala/dades/telec/aut/aut17/caut1004.htm

So as you can see, the data is there, but trying to copy and paste it into excel just brings up a bunch of formatting issues that I simply wasn't able to solve. Maybe it's just that I'm not that savvy with this kind of stuff, but I just couldn't do it.

I trust this can work for you?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PwXVJC36t7l2FF10YrJoAZwXKMZpQjD1/view?usp=sharing

It's not that hard to get into Excel, just need to know how set things up before you paste so it reads the table correctly. Also, can I recommend the next step after your block map? It seems the obvious follow-up would be comparisons of parties within the blocks - PSC vs Comu-Podem, PP vs C's vs VOX, ERC vs JxCAT vs CUP - since they are accepted be tenuous groupings, albeit the best ones for this situation.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Skye on January 04, 2021, 04:28:18 PM
Nice map. Have you found precinct data for regional elections?

Thanks for your input, as well as the added context. Catalan politics is such an exhausting topic lol.

Regarding precinct data for regional elections, the data for the 2017 election is here:

http://www.bcn.cat/estadistica/catala/dades/telec/aut/aut17/caut1004.htm

So as you can see, the data is there, but trying to copy and paste it into excel just brings up a bunch of formatting issues that I simply wasn't able to solve. Maybe it's just that I'm not that savvy with this kind of stuff, but I just couldn't do it.

I trust this can work for you?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QhSAJrQ9DQkYRq6vhHmcdO3R3cXpBrpU/view?usp=sharing

It's not that hard to get into Excel, just need to know how set things up before you paste so it reads the table correctly. Also, can I recommend the next step after your block map? It seems the obvious follow-up would be comparisons of parties within the blocks - PSC vs Comu-Podem, PP vs C's vs VOX, ERC vs JxCAT vs CUP - since they are accepted be tenuous groupings, albeit the best ones for this situation.

Your spreadsheet is pretty much what I had. Here's the thing. There are two spaces after each number of votes in every cell with a vote. So I have to delete the spaces for the program to be able to recognize the numbers. I run a simple formula to do it. Bang, the number doesn't have the spaces afterwards. Yet it still doesn't work I don't know why. I run a formula to calculate the votes but it's like the program doesn't recognize it as number. I've tried messing with the number format but it doesn't seem to work. It only recognizes it as a number after I click on each number in its formula bar. And well, that's not gonna do it lol. I'll admit I'm not an Excel expert, but damn, I was frustrated with this one and just gave up. If you know of any way to work around it, let me know please.

Regarding the comparisons, it is indeed something I wanted to work on. However, I have to work first on a color scheme. I only have a red-blue color scheme that worked well enough for me for US maps, Spanish maps where only the left and right parties were involved, and Venezuelan maps. I had to make one for a third party for this map! Considering we're talking about 8 parties for this alone, that color scheme gonna take a bit of time. Hopefully I'll be able to have it ready by the time the election comes.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Oryxslayer on January 04, 2021, 05:25:14 PM
Nice map. Have you found precinct data for regional elections?

Thanks for your input, as well as the added context. Catalan politics is such an exhausting topic lol.

Regarding precinct data for regional elections, the data for the 2017 election is here:

http://www.bcn.cat/estadistica/catala/dades/telec/aut/aut17/caut1004.htm

So as you can see, the data is there, but trying to copy and paste it into excel just brings up a bunch of formatting issues that I simply wasn't able to solve. Maybe it's just that I'm not that savvy with this kind of stuff, but I just couldn't do it.

I trust this can work for you?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QhSAJrQ9DQkYRq6vhHmcdO3R3cXpBrpU/view?usp=sharing

It's not that hard to get into Excel, just need to know how set things up before you paste so it reads the table correctly. Also, can I recommend the next step after your block map? It seems the obvious follow-up would be comparisons of parties within the blocks - PSC vs Comu-Podem, PP vs C's vs VOX, ERC vs JxCAT vs CUP - since they are accepted be tenuous groupings, albeit the best ones for this situation.

Your spreadsheet is pretty much what I had. Here's the thing. There are two spaces after each number of votes in every cell with a vote. So I have to delete the spaces for the program to be able to recognize the numbers. I run a simple formula to do it. Bang, the number doesn't have the spaces afterwards. Yet it still doesn't work I don't know why. I run a formula to calculate the votes but it's like the program doesn't recognize it as number. I've tried messing with the number format but it doesn't seem to work. It only recognizes it as a number after I click on each number in its formula bar. And well, that's not gonna do it lol. I'll admit I'm not an Excel expert, but damn, I was frustrated with this one and just gave up. If you know of any way to work around it, let me know please.


Try the link now. I believe I have solved your problem, and I uploaded a new version.

What you have described is a bit common when you CTRL+C/V straight from older websites. These websites have characters that separate the values which Excel does not recognize and are not spaces. ALT+0160 is the most common. Here's my quick and easy way to clean for these, since excel will do nothing with these characters.

-CTRL+C/V to new Excel Doc
-Remove any Commas/periods in numbers over 1000 with a CTRL-F. This may not be needed, and since they can be added back later with formatting, but I just do it for safety during future steps.
-Save it as UTF-8 CSV
-Open CSV in Notepad++. You will notice that there are characters (might appear as spaces/tabs) which are not numeric, a ", or a comma.
-Copy the characters and select everything in Notepad++. Do a CTRL+F and replace these characters with nothing. You could also remove all ", but it changes nothing.
-When the lines in the Notepad++ doc look like the following, you are done: ,"72","68","104",,,,,,,,
-Ctrl+C/V this into a new excel sheet and it will now work.

There are ways to set things up with a cleaning script to remove these things solely in excel, but this is quicker since you are just doing CTRL+F removals.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Skye on January 04, 2021, 05:36:16 PM
Try the link now. I believe I have solved your problem, and I uploaded a new version.

What you have described is a bit common when you CTRL+C/V straight from older websites. These websites have characters that separate the values which Excel does not recognize and are not spaces. ALT+0160 is the most common. Here's my quick and easy way to clean for these, since excel will do nothing with these characters.

-CTRL+C/V to new Excel Doc
-Remove any Commas/periods in numbers over 1000 with a CTRL-F. This may not be needed, and since they can be added back later with formatting, but I just do it for safety during future steps.
-Save it as UTF-8 CSV
-Open CSV in Notepad++. You will notice that there are characters (might appear as spaces/tabs) which are not numeric, a ", or a comma.
-Copy the characters and select everything in Notepad++. Do a CTRL+F and replace these characters with nothing. You could also remove all ", but it changes nothing.
-When the lines in the Notepad++ doc look like the following, you are done: ,"72","68","104",,,,,,,,
-Ctrl+C/V this into a new excel sheet and it will now work.

There are ways to set things up with a cleaning script to remove these things solely in excel, but this is quicker since you are just doing CTRL+F removals.

Wow, it really is fixed. Thanks for the steps, I'll try to do them myself to see if I understood them correctly.

Since the spreadsheet works, this map will be even easier to do than the previous one. But that'll have to wait until tomorrow, I'm gonna hit the bed now. Again, thanks!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 04, 2021, 05:40:33 PM
PSC candidate Salvador Illa will remain as Health minister until the end of January, which is perfectly legal bit will raise fierce criticism from the rest of parties (including Podemos). There exists the possibility that elections in Catalonia are postponed, in case the pandemic gets worse. Right now the situation is complicated and the Health department of theregionalgovernment (controlled by ERC) is implementing more restrictions. Apparently Junts (JxCAT before summer 2020) has an interest in postponing elections, while ERC wants that elections take place on the scheduled date. Curves ahead


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 04, 2021, 07:06:26 PM
For the sake of comparison, I repost this map of the last two local elections in Barcelona. The map shows the leading parties by neighbourhood in 2015 and 2019. The neighbourhood is an unit larger than the precinct, but smaller than the municipal district. There are 10 districts and 72 neighbourhoods  in BCN

()

Take the 2019 map and compare with the map in the previous page. Notice the neighbourhoods won by Cs (Manuel Valls) in Pedralbes, Sarria pr Sant Gervasi are approximately the same areas where the right bloc came first in the general elections. The ring of low income neighbourhoods won by the PSC (Antoni Collboni) went to the left bloc six months later, as well as many of the neighbourhoods won by Barcelona en Comu (BComu, Ada Colau). However, there is a remarkable exception in Vila de Gracia, where BComu won a plurality in the local elections (it's very likely the different pro-independence lists were the largest bloc). The neighbourhoods won by ERC (Ernest Maragall) are more or less coincident with the yellow areas in the other map. Local elections took place in May and the last general elections in November 2019


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Skye on January 05, 2021, 09:41:03 AM
Thanks to Oryx for his spreadsheet. Here's the 2017 Catalan Regional Election in Barcelona by precincts:

()

Same dynamic as the last time for the blocs, except VOX wasn't a thing back then so the right is only C's+PP. So in the city, we have:

Nationalists: 45.8%
Right: 29.0%
Left: 23.8%

The Spanish left posted poor numbers that year, and it shows. At glance, it seems it was only able to win 6 or so precincts. I made a gif to compare the 2017 to the 2019N one, and look how the most of the areas where the right performed well in 2017 were won by the left in 2019 (except in Ciutat Vella):

()

Wondering how will it go this year. Polls show the pro-Independence parties doing well (sometimes even earning around 50% of the vote combined), the Right almost certainly falling from its 2017 performance, and the Left in a middling position.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 05, 2021, 10:57:48 AM
Thanks to Oryx for his spreadsheet. Here's the 2017 Catalan Regional Election in Barcelona by precincts:

Same dynamic as the last time for the blocs, except VOX wasn't a thing back then so the right is only C's+PP. So in the city, we have:

Nationalists: 45.8%
Right: 29.0%
Left: 23.8%

The Spanish left posted poor numbers that year, and it shows. At glance, it seems it was only able to win 6 or so precincts. I made a gif to compare the 2017 to the 2019N one, and look how the most of the areas where the right performed well in 2017 were won by the left in 2019 (except in Ciutat Vella):

The issue with regional elections in Catalonia (specially since 2012) is that they haven't been fought on the ideological axis. Rather they have been contests focused on the sovereigntist process, between supporters and opponents of the Catalan independence. The 2017 election in particular came after the events in autumn 2017 (unilateral attempt of seccession) that led to the temporary suspension of the regional autónomy. Unlike the general elections, the most obvious bloc division for me is pro-independence (JxCAT, ERC, CUP) vs constitutionalist* (Cs, PSC, PP). Catalunya en Comu-Podem would be in no-man's land on this axis, as they represent a "third way" . Other alternative division would be Nationalists vs non-nationalists, including the 'comuns' in the second group (or sovereigntists vs non-sovereigntists with CatComu-Pidem in the first group)

Worth noting that the Cs success in 2015 and 2017 is the direct consequence of the climate of polarization around the national question. Cs was perceived as the party that more firmly opposed separatism and catched voters from all the non-nationalist forces; PSC, PP and even the likes of CatComu. You can appreciate that the PSC strongholds in the periphery turn blue in your second map, because there was a vote transfer from the other non-nationalist parties to Cs. There is an amount of leftwing voters identifying themselves as Spanish that gave Cs a borrowed vote, but they don't neccessarily agree that Cs positions itself in the rightwing bloc. Anyway the main victim of polarization and Ines Arrimadas was the PP, which was reduced to only 4 seats in parliament

*Catalan separatists call these parties "the bloc of the 155", which is a derogatory way to say they support the implementaron of article 155 and the oppression of the Spanish state

With regard to Vox the party is obviously anti-separatist, but I eould challenge the motion that a party seeking to abolish the "state of the autonomies" is constitutionalist


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Skye on January 05, 2021, 11:13:40 AM
The issue with regional elections in Catalonia (specially since 2012) is that they haven't been fought on the ideological axis. Rather they have been contests focused on the sovereigntist process, between supporters and opponents of the Catalan independence. The 2017 election in particular came after the events in autumn 2017 (unilateral attempt of seccession) that led to the temporary suspension of the regional autónomy. Unlike the general elections, the most obvious bloc division for me is pro-independence (JxCAT, ERC, CUP) vs constitutionalist* (Cs, PSC, PP). Caralunya en Comu-Podem would be un no-man's land on this axis, as they represent a "third way" .

I could do a map of "Unionists" v. "Separatists" using the blocs you outlined. I just don't know about excluding CatComu-Podem.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on January 05, 2021, 11:41:43 AM
The issue with regional elections in Catalonia (specially since 2012) is that they haven't been fought on the ideological axis. Rather they have been contests focused on the sovereigntist process, between supporters and opponents of the Catalan independence. The 2017 election in particular came after the events in autumn 2017 (unilateral attempt of seccession) that led to the temporary suspension of the regional autónomy. Unlike the general elections, the most obvious bloc division for me is pro-independence (JxCAT, ERC, CUP) vs constitutionalist* (Cs, PSC, PP). Caralunya en Comu-Podem would be un no-man's land on this axis, as they represent a "third way" .

I could do a map of "Unionists" v. "Separatists" using the blocs you outlined. I just don't know about excluding CatComu-Podem.

Most Spanish news media tends to exclude CatComu, and treats them as their own thing, just too weak to win anywhere. I think that is the most accurate way to place them too

Maybe you can try and make clear the "plurality secessionist/unionist" vs "majority secessionist/unionist" areas


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 05, 2021, 05:27:49 PM
Interesting article in Foreign Policy about the letters certain retired officers sent to King Felipe against the "social-communist" government. It covers important political events in Spain's recent history,  so if you read it you'll get some context.

"Retired officers nostalgic for the Franco dictatorship are denouncing the country’s elected government. King Felipe should condemn these anti-democratic forces just as his father
did in 1981".

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/01/04/spain-military-espana-ejercito-franco-juan-carlos-king-felipe-sanchez-generals-no-time-for-democracy/

Quote

For all but the most reactionary elements of Spain’s political class and military, these letters constitute an unpleasant reminder of the past. In July 1936, an armed rebellion led by Gen. Francisco Franco was launched against the Popular Front government, a leftist coalition of Socialists and communists that had won the general election in February that year. After three years of brutal civil war, Franco’s forces triumphed over the Republicans in 1939, replacing the elected government with a military dictatorship that lasted for the next four decades.

Ominously, the vision hinted at in the letters recently sent to the royal household and the open statement—of the military and monarchy standing united against Spain’s imperfect yet democratically elected government—sounds similar to that which inspired Franco’s rebellion 84 years ago.  

Quote
  Spain's unity andintegrity has not been damaged or threatened by cross-party compromise, but rather by the military's intervention in its politics



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 06, 2021, 08:00:09 AM
After the recruitment of Lorena Roldan, the woman who was going to be the Cs candidate, the PP hires BCN councilor Eva Parera. This is relevant because Ms Parera is the right hand of Manuel Valls in the Barcelona City Hall. Eva Parera was previously in UDC (Unio, the CiU minor partner) and was senator from 2011 to 2014. Maniel Valls hired Eva Parera to run as an independent for Barcelona pel Canvi, the list led by the former French PM and supported by Cs in the 2019 local elections. So the backgrounds of Lorena Roldan and Eva Parera are different. Parera represents a certain conservative catalanism contrary to the sovereigntist process, while Roldan claims that she joins the PP because "Cs have lost its essence". In any case, there is a tough competition for the orange spoils going on. Parera will be placed third in the Barcelona list,  behind PP candidate Alejandro Fernandez and Lorena Roldan

Labour minister Yolanda Diaz (UP) suggested yesterday, in a polite tone and with mild manners, that Salvador Illa should resign as Health minister. The PSC candidate stated he will remain until the official campaign starts, but Ms Diaz says "we are in campaign already"


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 06, 2021, 10:46:22 AM

Try to spot a small precinct in Sant Marti district that is light blue in the first map and dark blue in the second. It's an old housing block for national police agents.  The block is a PP bastion in Barcelona and I think it was the only precinct where the party came first in April 2019


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Skye on January 06, 2021, 11:18:19 AM

Try to spot a small precinct in Sant Marti district that is light blue in the first map and dark blue in the second. It's an old housing block for national police agents.  The block is a PP bastion in Barcelona and I think it was the only precinct where the party came first in April 2019

I read about this during the election! Something along the lines of "No matter what happens, the PP will always win that precinct". Not sure if it was here or somewhere else.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 06, 2021, 03:16:48 PM
We only have the Sociometrica polls for El Español to measure the impact of Salvador Illa as PSC candidate. Not my favourite pollster, but anyway I'll post the vote estimation (swing with regard the previous poll in brackets)

ERC 20.1 (-1.6)
JUNTS 19.9 (-0.4)
PSC 19 3 (+2.6)
Cs 12.0 (-1.2)
CatComu-Podem 7.0 (-0.7)
VOX 6.3 (+0.2)
PP 6 1 (-0.2)
CUP 5 2 (+0.3)
PDeCAT N/A (1.6*)

To be honest, I don't buy this estimation. But interestingly there is a table with a vote transfer matrix

Cs transfers: Cs 32.3, Junts 1.8, PSC 28.0, PP 6.9, Vox 19.9, PDeCAT 0.3, PNC 1.2, Others/Undecided 9.6

https://www.elespanol.com/espana/20210106/salvador-illa-acerca-socialistas-cataluna-elegido-candidato/548946221_0.html

I get the impression that Cs will perform in single digits and Vox is a wild card. On the other hand, the PSC candidate will suffer heavy attacks. In what concerns the tough competition in the pro-independence bloc, Junts has chances of beating ERC and winning the contest. All these things providing the elections are not postponed by the pandemic


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Oryxslayer on January 06, 2021, 04:55:22 PM

Try to spot a small precinct in Sant Marti district that is light blue in the first map and dark blue in the second. It's an old housing block for national police agents.  The block is a PP bastion in Barcelona and I think it was the only precinct where the party came first in April 2019

I read about this during the election! Something along the lines of "No matter what happens, the PP will always win that precinct". Not sure if it was here or somewhere else.
I wonder if VOX will win that precinct in the future...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 06, 2021, 09:12:01 PM
ere the party came first in April 2019
I wonder if VOX will win that precinct in the future...

I made a search in the interactive map, out of curiosity. VOX performed strongly, but the PP took a big lead in the November 2019 general elections. The precinct is in the Sant Martí de Provençals neighbourhood, surrounded by PSC and ERC precincts like the gaul village in the Asterix stories

Barcelona: section 10-108

PP  249 (31.8%)
PSC-PSOE 127 (16.2%)
ECP 105 (13.4%)
VOX 98 (11.5%)
ERC 76 (9.7%)
Cs 56 (7.2%)
(...)

https://www.eldiario.es/politica/votaron-resultados-elecciones-generales-calle_1_1257177.html

 Precinct resullts in the December 2017 regional elections. Turnout was 11% higher with regard the last general elections

Cs 393 (43.5%)
ERC 104 (11.5%)
JxCAT 42 (4.7%)
PSC 121 (13.4%)
CatComu-Podem 63 (7.0%)
CUP 18 (2.0%)
PP 150 (16.6%)
PACMA 9 (1.0%)
Zero Cuts 2 (0.2%)
Blank 1 (0.1%)
Total Valid Votes 903
Turnout 905 (85.1%)

I made the calculation myself with the data linked by Skye. Wno knows where are going to be all those orange votes. Some of them are not going to show up...     




Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Skye on January 08, 2021, 05:57:46 AM
So this little poll caught my eye. It’s a general election poll of Asturias, a usually left-leaning province, done by SyM:



It shows the right leading the left by a 51-44 margin. I guess it shouldn’t be *too* surprising since the left (especially UP) isn’t polling that well on national polls, but still.

For comparison, Asturias voted 51.5-45.8 for the left during the Nov. 2019 General election.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on January 08, 2021, 06:26:17 AM
Yeah, that poll is impressive and very bad for PSOE/UP and especially good for Vox. Worth noting Asturias is the last "culturally Castillian" region that still votes to the left of Spain at large. I wonder if the Asturian domino will fall in 2023 or whenever, much like the Andalusian one fell in 2019.

For what is worth national polling shows a slightly better picture for the left though. In the popular vote it is down by roughly 46-40; however, that only translates to 169 seats or so for the right, compared to 137 for the left. Here is a recent Sociométrica poll for example:

()

That is very bad for the left, but still short of what would be needed for a conservative working majority. This isn't 1996 anymore so for the Spanish right it is "176 or bust". Parties like Junts, PNV or even CC and TEx are probably not going to support the right.

As of now, opinion polling would make it a near certainty that Spain would see a repeat election. The right would lack a majority and a left wing government would need to involve Junts; and I can't see the Puigdemont cult even abstaining, let alone voting yes.

Of course, that assumes that polls are 100% accurate, which they won't be. A right wing majority under current polling would probably have something like a 40% chance of happening; even a small polling error in its favour would do it; while a polling error in favour of the left wouldn't exactly mean an easy Sanchez victory.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 08, 2021, 09:08:29 AM
I don't know that pollster and hope the Asturias poll is an outlier, because Vox polling that high draws a nightmarish picture. Sociométrica leans a bit to the right, but anyway polling average suggests a wear of the government. Stii, there's not an alternative rightwing majority. The government needs to stay at least a couple of years, in the hope that economy rebounds after the end of the pandemic

Preferred Catalan premier, according to GESOP. Being the preferred premier or having the highest approval rate does not imply the candidate's party is the favourite to win the elections, but it may help to boost chances. I guess El Periódico will release the vote estimation tomorrow

() (https://ibb.co/dWVs3Bw)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: kaoras on January 08, 2021, 09:39:40 AM
That poll from Asturias is from SyM, honestly all of you should know better than to pay attention to that :P


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: It's Perro Sanxe wot won it on January 08, 2021, 09:40:18 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about the SyM Consulting survey, it's a pretty trashy pollster. In November 2019 they were the only ones who predicted an outright PP-Vox-C's majority (with C's holding 35-40 seats).

About the GESOP poll, El Periódico polls usually are a bit too rosy for the PSC, but I do buy that Salvador Illa is the preferred candidate by a large margin. Name recognition is probably a significant factor though, since the other candidates are relative newcomers to the political scene and he has received enormous amounts of media attention due to the pandemic.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 08, 2021, 11:03:17 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about the SyM Consulting survey, it's a pretty trashy pollster. In November 2019 they were the only ones who predicted an outright PP-Vox-C's majority (with C's holding 35-40 seats).

About the GESOP poll, El Periódico polls usually are a bit too rosy for the PSC, but I do buy that Salvador Illa is the preferred candidate by a large margin. Name recognition is probably a significant factor though, since the other candidates are relative newcomers to the political scene and he has received enormous amounts of media attention due to the pandemic.

To be honest, I didn't realize it was SyM consulting. Low credibility indeed

You are right about the GESOP polls for El Periódico; they tend to be rosy for the socialists. The funny thing is that I believe GESOP is also working for the CEO, the Catalan counterpart of the CIS. There are other pollsters that work for various commissioners,  such as GAD3 (Narciso Michavila). I always wonder if the  estimations are influenced by the leanings of the commissioners. In any case GESOP and GAD3 are more reliable than that SyM.

Trying to predict a result right now is too hazardous, but I think a thtree-cornered contest between ERC, Junts and PSC is plausible. Also, I suspect that Junts has been quite successful in undermining Pere Aragonès and I am afraid the Puigdemont party has many chances of surpassing ERC. The latter will get more nervous as the election date gets closer. Junts coming first and leading the Catalan government would be an upsetting outcome for those seeking a deescalation of the Catalan conflict. On the other hand, some people claim that Salvador Illa has been placed there to seek a new tripartite alliance with ERC and ECP. I'm highly sceptical about the possibility of a leftwing coalition, but it's not entirely impossible. A new edition of the Tripartite that governed between 2003 and 2010 would be assailed from every side,  both from the pro-independence camp (Junts and CUP) and the Spanish Right  (PP, Vox and Cs)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Skye on January 08, 2021, 01:24:24 PM
I wouldn't worry too much about the SyM Consulting survey, it's a pretty trashy pollster. In November 2019 they were the only ones who predicted an outright PP-Vox-C's majority (with C's holding 35-40 seats).

About the GESOP poll, El Periódico polls usually are a bit too rosy for the PSC, but I do buy that Salvador Illa is the preferred candidate by a large margin. Name recognition is probably a significant factor though, since the other candidates are relative newcomers to the political scene and he has received enormous amounts of media attention due to the pandemic.

To be honest, I didn't realize it was SyM consulting. Low credibility indeed

You are right about the GESOP polls for El Periódico; they tend to be rosy for the socialists. The funny thing is that I believe GESOP is also working for the CEO, the Catalan counterpart of the CIS. There are other pollsters that work for various commissioners,  such as GAD3 (Narciso Michavila). I always wonder if the  estimations are influenced by the leanings of the commissioners. In any case GESOP and GAD3 are more reliable than that SyM.

Trying to predict a result right now is too hazardous, but I think a thtree-cornered contest between ERC, Junts and PSC is plausible. Also, I suspect that Junts has been quite successful in undermining Pere Aragonès and I am afraid the Puigdemont party has many chances of surpassing ERC. The latter will get more nervous as the election date gets closer. Junts coming first and leading the Catalan government would be an upsetting outcome for those seeking a deescalation of the Catalan conflict. On the other hand, some people claim that Salvador Illa has been placed there to seek a new tripartite alliance with ERC and ECP. I'm highly sceptical about the possibility of a leftwing coalition, but it's not entirely impossible. A new edition of the Tripartite that governed between 2003 and 2010 would be assailed from every side,  both from the pro-independence camp (Junts and CUP) and the Spanish Right  (PP, Vox and Cs)

Oh I didn't know the pollster was trash. Disregard, then.

But speaking of GESOP polls that are rosy for the socialists, here's the latest from them for the Catalonia elections:


Sadly, no popular vote numbers, but still, I don't think I've seen any polls that had the PSC winning the most seats, at least during the past few weeks.

EDIT: Ok we got the popular vote numbers now:



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 08, 2021, 02:32:21 PM

But speaking of GESOP polls that are rosy for the socialists, here's the latest from them for the Catalonia elections:


Sadly, no popular vote numbers, but still, I don't think I've seen any polls that had the PSC winning the most seats, at least during the past few weeks.

EDIT: Ok we got the popular vote numbers now:



I'm totally sure this is the first poll where the PSC takes the lead

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Catalan_regional_election#Opinion_polls

Personally I think it'd be amazing that Salvador Illa comes ahead in the next Catalan elections, because he's a nice person and quite possibly I'd be voting for his party if I was eligible. But maybe this poll is a bit rosy and January is going to be tough. No doubt his candidacy is having an impact and adding interest to the election, let's see how long it lasts the 'Illa effect'

https://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20210108/encuesta-elecciones-cataluna-2021-11442083


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on January 08, 2021, 02:42:11 PM
With this result, what kind of majority is possible? A PSC-ERC-Comun coalition like the graphic says or something different? It seems the only solution.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 08, 2021, 03:31:27 PM
With this result, what kind of majority is possible? A PSC-ERC-Comun coalition like the graphic says or something different? It seems the only solution.

ERC+Junts propped up by the CUP would have the numbers


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on January 08, 2021, 03:35:16 PM
With this result, what kind of majority is possible? A PSC-ERC-Comun coalition like the graphic says or something different? It seems the only solution.

ERC+Junts propped up by the CUP would have the numbers
Aren't ERC and Junts at odds with each other? My impression was that the relation between both parties is very bad now.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 08, 2021, 03:44:53 PM
With this result, what kind of majority is possible? A PSC-ERC-Comun coalition like the graphic says or something different? It seems the only solution.

ERC+Junts propped up by the CUP would have the numbers
Aren't ERC and Junts at odds with each other? My impression was that the relation between both parties is very bad now.

The Puigdemont crew and ERC have been at odds for years, but they have been sharing government for the sake of nationalist unity. The candidacy of Salvador Illa is aimed at boosting the PSC chances and breaking the current bloc dynamics.  With Miquel Iceta a leftwing tripartite was impossible because the ERC folks hate him. There is a little chance with Illa, but I remain a bit sceptical.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on January 08, 2021, 04:57:08 PM
As someone who'd definitely support PSC in Catalonia, that poll is 100% wishful thinking :P

GESOP / El Periódico polls do indeed tend to be very rosy for the socialists. Back in 2017 they predicted PSC would only narrowly trail Cs for instance. El Periódico, while a decent newspaper in some aspects, is extremely biased towards PSC-PSOE and that translates to its polls*

*: Worth noting that a newspaper's editorial bias does not always translate to its polls. La Razón and ABC are both quite right wing, PP supporting newspapers for instance. But while La Razón's pollster (NC Report) tends to be rather rosy for PP, ABC's pollster (GAD3) tends to be the most accurate in Spain. Or for a left wing example, La Sexta is a TV station with a heavy left wing bias, but its polls (Invymark) are reasonably fair and accurate.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on January 08, 2021, 08:30:23 PM
Skye's Barcelona maps are very informative and neat, thank you!

Anyway, I have never followed the Catalan crisis in any particular detail (although from what I know it looks just... ahem, completely insane), but I'm certainly interested in these next elections.

*: Worth noting that a newspaper's editorial bias does not always translate to its polls. La Razón and ABC are both quite right wing, PP supporting newspapers for instance. But while La Razón's pollster (NC Report) tends to be rather rosy for PP, ABC's pollster (GAD3) tends to be the most accurate in Spain. Or for a left wing example, La Sexta is a TV station with a heavy left wing bias, but its polls (Invymark) are reasonably fair and accurate.

Not surprising, it's like Fox News polls which are generally pretty fair and accurate, whereas we all know the bias of Fox News as a TV station.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: It's Perro Sanxe wot won it on January 09, 2021, 12:28:58 PM
Yeah that PSC result is extremely unlikely, way too rosy. I’ll believe the socialists have actually surged ahead when other pollsters confirm it. If the pattern set by the Galician and Basque regional elections held, we should expect mediocre results for the PSC and disastrous results for ECP, along with a rise of the nationalist left, ERC in Catalonia’s case, at the expense of both (more ECP than the socialists).

However, Catalonia differs from Galicia and the Basque Country in that C’s has a very strong presence, meaning that the PSC has a large batch of centrist unionist voters to make inroads into. ECP doesn’t have any obvious place to gain new voters, so my guess is that they’ll do even worse than polls are currently predicting, bleeding voters in three directions: towards ERC and, to a lesser extent, CUP (voters in favor of independence who voted ECP because they thought they could be a force in favor of holding a referendum agreed with Madrid, now disenchanted due to the lack of progress in that area even with UP in government), PSC (left-wing voters who like the current national government and gravitate towards the senior partner) and towards abstention (disillusioned voters in general).

About Illa, I’m not convinced by him. Looking at the circumstances, it’s clear why he was chosen, plus the initial reaction to his candidacy has been quite positive. What concerns me is his lack of charisma and lack of experience heading an electoral list, he could flounder in the campaign. That would add to the PSC’s tendency of doing worse than expected on election day (they only bucked the trend in 2015, probably due to the fact that they hit rock bottom that time and couldn’t get any lower).

My prediction is another nationalist coalition (led by ERC, my gut tells me the Puigdemont effect won’t be as strong as it used to be, especially since he isn’t the candidate this time) and another four years of hopeless deadlock in the Catalan situation.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: It's Perro Sanxe wot won it on January 09, 2021, 02:17:51 PM
GAD3 poll for La Vanguardia:

Turnout: 64% (-18% compared with 2017)

ERC: 24,1% (-3,2), 37-39 seats
PSC: 20,5% (+1,4), 30-31 seats
Junts: 18,5% (-1,4), 31 seats
C’s: 9,7% (-0,5), 13 seats
PP: 6,2% (-0,2), 8 seats
ECP: 6,0% (-0,7), 6-7 seats
CUP: 4,3% (+0,4), 4-5 seats
Vox: 4,0% (-0,2), 4 seats
PDECAT: 2,9% (+2,9), 0-1 seats

Comparisons with last GAD3 poll, conducted in September.
The nationalists would have a majority without relying on CUP, while ERC-PSC-ECP would also have a comfortable majority.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 09, 2021, 05:12:47 PM
The GAD3 poll looks plausible, but I am afraid the result will be tighter in the pro-independence bloc (ERC down a bit and Junts up). The PSC might well get 20% or 21% of the vote, which is a decent result compared to all the precedent elections since 2010. With ERC, Junts and the PSC in the low 20s it'd be a three-cornered contest for the first place. Cs is heading to a single digit performance and the result may be even worse. Modest gains for the PP, which main concern is coming ahead of the Vox's wildcard (both PP and Vox have a low ceiling in Catalonia, but Vox coming ahead of the PP would jeopardize the Pablo Casado's strategy towards the far-right). ECP is set to lose ground, mainly to the PSC (and to a minor extent to ERC or CUP). The PDeCAT would need the explicit support from Artur Mas in the struggle to survive. In case turnout is in the low 60s, we can take for granted the pro-independence parties will get more than 50% of the vote...

However, Catalonia differs from Galicia and the Basque Country in that C’s has a very strong presence, meaning that the PSC has a large batch of centrist unionist voters to make inroads into. ECP doesn’t have any obvious place to gain new voters, so my guess is that they’ll do even worse than polls are currently predicting, bleeding voters in three directions: towards ERC and, to a lesser extent, CUP (voters in favor of independence who voted ECP because they thought they could be a force in favor of holding a referendum agreed with Madrid, now disenchanted due to the lack of progress in that area even with UP in government), PSC (left-wing voters who like the current national government and gravitate towards the senior partner) and towards abstention (disillusioned voters in general).

Some pro-independence voters gave a tactical vote for ECP in past general elections, but in the last Catalan elections the 'comuns' were pretty much reduced to the bone due to polarization. ECP won the 2015 and 2016 general elections in Catalonia and still got a decent result in 2019, but regional elections are a different issue and nationalists are always going to get better results. I don't think that ECP is going to lose support because voters are disappointed on the referendum (realistically they know Podemos alone can't do anything in that regard), but being in no man's land and lacking a clear discourse obviously hurt. Personally I have met a few individuals from Barcelona and surroundings whom switch between ECP and ERC, without being necessarily hardcore separatists (there is a grey area between 'unionists' and 'separatists', people who is sovereigntist and support a referendum). Another problem is that voters in Catalonia have a lot of leftwing parties to choose, from the far-left separatist CUP to the centre-left constitutionalist/federalist PSC. ECP might well get 5% or 6% of the vote, which is a pretty dismal result. Performing below 5% would be simply catastrophic.

Quote
About Illa, I’m not convinced by him. Looking at the circumstances, it’s clear why he was chosen, plus the initial reaction to his candidacy has been quite positive. What concerns me is his lack of charisma and lack of experience heading an electoral list, he could flounder in the campaign. That would add to the PSC’s tendency of doing worse than expected on election day (they only bucked the trend in 2015, probably due to the fact that they hit rock bottom that time and couldn’t get any lower).
 


Socialists needed to shake things a bit and Salvador Illa is the best card they have. I'm not initially in favour that Mr Illa continues as Health minister, but I understand why he won't resign until the end of January. Among other things, elections could be delayed and there's a vaccination campaign going on. The main asset of Salvador Illa is his politeness and good disposition. Luckily for him, the other candidates (Pere Aragonès, Laura Borràs, Carlos Carrizosa) are not particularly charismatic. He is obviously less galvanizing than Inés Arrimadas, but he has the advantage of being much less confrontational and divisive. The problem is that many voters don't perceive there's a threat like in 2017, so they are not going to show up. Otherwise the GESOP poll would be more realistic


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 11, 2021, 10:24:05 AM
Support for the Catalan independence decreases slowly, according to the GAD3 poll for La Vanguardia

-What would you vote in a referendum on independence (previous poll percentage in brackets)?

Yes 42.6 (45.2)
No 48.9 (46.7)
Don't know/ don't answer 8.5 (8.1)

Gender gap in the support for independence: men +4, women -16
Support for independence is stronger among the youngsters and decreases with age. Unemployed and people with lower income are more contrary to independence. Unilateral seccession is overwhelmingly rejected rejected, including nationalist voters

- Should pardon be granted for the jailed politicians?

Yes 60.6
No 32.6

A majority of the PSC and ECP voters support pardon, while a majority of Cs, PP and Vox voters rejects it. Pardon is one of the preferred ways to deescalate the conflict

- Do you think the round table between (Spanish and Catalan) governments will be useful to solve the conflict?

Yes 48.9
No 46.2

-- Which way would you prefer to solve the conflict in case of a bilateral negotiation?

Improvement of the financing system 27.5
Referendum on independence 26.8
Reform of the Spanish Constitution 24.0
New Catalan Statute 10.8
Don't know / don't answer 10.9

- Which is the best solution to deescalate the conflict?

Pardon to the jailed politicians  27.8
Amnesty 25.6
Do nothing: jailed politicians must serve their full sentences 21.6
Reform of the charge of sedition 15.1
Don't know / don't answer 9.9

The Spanish government is apparently favourable to grant pardon to the jailed politicians, which is rejected by the rightwing opposition parties. Catalan nationalist parties demand amnesty

https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20210111/6179204/apoyo-independencia-sondeo-encuesta-gad-3.html







Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Skye on January 11, 2021, 10:40:42 AM
Support for the Catalan independence decreases slowly, according to the GAD3 poll for La Vanguardia

-What would you vote in a referendum on independence (previous poll percentage in brackets)?

Yes 42.6 (45.2)
No 48.9 (46.7)
Don't know/ don't answer 8.5 (8.1)

Gender gap in the support for independence: men +4, women -16
Support for independence is stronger among the youngsters and decreases with age. Unemployed and people with lower income are more contrary to independence. Unilateral seccession is overwhelmingly rejected rejected, including nationalist voters

A shame we don't have crosstabs. I'd like to see support levels among voters of each party, especially since the poll has the Nationalists at 50% for the election.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on January 13, 2021, 11:19:49 AM
The Catalan regional elections could be postponed until May:


Quote
The Catalan Government is willing to postpone the elections to the Parliament of Catalonia, scheduled for February 14, given the advance of the coronavirus pandemic, according to TVE.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: It's Perro Sanxe wot won it on January 13, 2021, 11:53:54 AM
The Catalan regional elections could be postponed until May:


Quote
The Catalan Government is willing to postpone the elections to the Parliament of Catalonia, scheduled for February 14, given the advance of the coronavirus pandemic, according to TVE.

Yeah, it looks like Catalan elections are going to be postponed to the second half of May due to the mounting third wave of coronavirus. All parties have expressed doubt at the prospect of keeping the February 14 date, given the status of the pandemic; the only exception being the socialists, who of course stand to lose the most in a delayed election scenario (they are the ones with all the momentum right now). In any case, the decision won’t be taken until Friday.

In other news, a couple of significant rifts have occurred within the coalition government. The first one is over skyrocketing electricity prices (which have doubled in the past few days) due to the cold wave the country is currently experiencing. UP is calling for increased regulation and even partial nationalization of the energy sector, while the PSOE’s line is to maintain the status quo, arguing that the spike is a momentary occurrence caused by the historically low temperatures and has nothing to do with the way the electricity supply system is structured. UP is also pointing out that the government program agreed between both parties called for reform of the energy market.

The other one is over former King Juan Carlos. The PSOE sided with the right and effectively blocked a parliamentary investigative commission proposed by UP into the alleged use of so-called “black cards” by the former monarch, in spite of advice by the Congress’s legal counsel that stated that such an investigation would be legal. The junior partners in the coalition sharply criticized the socialists for this decision, especially Minister of Defense Margarita Robles, who has been the most outspoken defender of the monarchy within the PSOE.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 13, 2021, 12:21:08 PM
PSC PSC secretary general Miquel Iceta said that Salvador Illa would continue as Health minister, in case elections are postponed.  Bye to the 'Illa momentum' 😪


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on January 13, 2021, 01:03:17 PM
Well, here's hoping for 'Illa momentum 2.0' in May or something. ;D But likely it won't happen. Damn, it's sad to see elections postponed because of the pandemic.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 13, 2021, 01:22:56 PM
Well, here's hoping for 'Illa momentum 2.0' in May or something. ;D But likely it won't happen.

Don't give up the hope


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Skye on January 13, 2021, 01:38:39 PM
So I know that the Autonomous Communities are the most responsible for the response to the pandemic, but I can't help but to think how bad it could look for Illa to go from the Ministry of Health to the campaign trail supposedly to capitalize on his popularity and then have the election postponed due to how bad the COVID situation is.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 14, 2021, 09:20:23 PM
Central and regional governments clash on the election delay. Justice minister Juan Carlos Campo said the delay is not covered in law and is "serious for democracy", stressing that Catalonia needs a government. The PSC has been trying that elections take place as planned, arguing that only a strict lockdown would justify elections are postponed (as it happened in April past year with Basque and Galician elections postponed to July) and offering logistic support from central government. However, all the parties from Cs to the CUP support the delay, so the socialists are now proposing that elections take place in March instead of late May.

The spokeswoman of the Catalan government Meritxell Budó said that they have the competences to postpone elections. Also she reminded back in September 2020 an independent commission of jurists, taking into account the precedents of Basque Country and Galicia, said the Catalan government could postpone for health emergency reasons. The precedents are clear, but there a couple of key differences: a) there is not a strict lockdown, and b) after the disqualification of Quim Torra later that year no premier has been elected to replace him and Pere Aragonès is only interim premier. In other words, the elections were called because the term to elect a new premier expired (JxCAT and ERC agreed things were in that way, instead of voting a candidate from Torra). So apparently there are elements for a legal quagmire.  In any case, the Catalan government will make a decision on Friday and remarks that decision needs to be consensual.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on January 15, 2021, 06:47:45 AM
Didn't the Basque and Galician elections get delayed by a lot anyways? I fail to see what is the big issue here, especially not juridically like the Spanish government / PSOE is claiming

Just do the same that was done in the Basque Country and Galicia.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on January 15, 2021, 07:39:15 AM
It seems that the PSC is proposing postponing the election to 14 or 21 March. A decision will be made during the day, it seems.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 15, 2021, 08:06:04 AM
Didn't the Basque and Galician elections get delayed by a lot anyways? I fail to see what is the big issue here, especially not juridically like the Spanish government / PSOE is claiming

Just do the same that was done in the Basque Country and Galicia.

The big issue is that elections were called automatically because, when Quim Torra was disqualified from office, the Parliament of Catalonia failed to elect a new premier within the legal timeframe. The reason is that JxCAT and ERC agreed they were not going to present a candidate and just wait until the term expired. The situation of the pandemic was not good by late 2020 and they should have known better. If you ask my opinion, I'll tell you that holding elections in February is not a good idea. But it's so obvious the ERC folks changed their minds when the last polls were not so favourable... It's undeniable the 'Illa effect' has played a major role and the presidential elections are going on under similar circumstances in Portugal,  so the socialists (not all the government, as the UP allies have bad electoral prospects) have their reasons to raise objections. The situation now is not exactly the same of Galicia and the Basque Country, as Catalonia has an interim government and there is no consensus between all the parties


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on Feb.14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 15, 2021, 08:31:47 AM
Elections in Catalonia will be postponed to May 30. The Catalan government will sign the decree in a meeting today at 17:00 CET.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections postponed to May 30, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 19, 2021, 06:58:52 AM
The High Court of Catalonia orders the precautionary suspension of the regional government decree postponing elections to May 30. The previous decree calling elections on February 14 remains in force until the judiciary rules

Meanwhile Pablo Iglesias raised controversy comparing the self-imposed exile of Carles Puigdemont to the Spanish republican exilees after 1939. Go and dig your own hole,  comrade Iglesias


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections postponed to May 30, 2021
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on January 19, 2021, 07:06:45 AM
The High Court of Catalonia orders the precautionary suspension of the regional government decree postponing elections to May 30. The previous decree calling elections on February 14 remains in force until the judiciary rules

Meanwhile Pablo Iglesias raised controversy comparing the self-imposed exile of Carles Puigdemont to the Spanish republican exilees after 1939. Go and dig your own hole,  comrade Iglesias

So... what happens to the Catalonian elections? February 14 is pretty close.

Oof Iglesias.
We all know who is the one true great Pablo Iglesias: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pablo_Iglesias_Posse


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections postponed to May 30, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 19, 2021, 07:20:54 AM
The High Court of Catalonia orders the precautionary suspension of the regional government decree postponing elections to May 30. The previous decree calling elections on February 14 remains in force until the judiciary rules

So... what happens to the Catalonian elections? February 14 is pretty close.

Nobody knows

I read the other day that Catalonia is the westernmost region of Italy. It's a metaphor, of course.

Welcome to the conundrum


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections postponed to May 30, 2021
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on January 19, 2021, 07:25:14 AM
The High Court of Catalonia orders the precautionary suspension of the regional government decree postponing elections to May 30. The previous decree calling elections on February 14 remains in force until the judiciary rules

So... what happens to the Catalonian elections? February 14 is pretty close.

Nobody knows

I read the other day that Catalonia is the westernmost Italian region. It's a metaphor, of course.

Lmao

Nah, beating the slowness of our judiciary is basically impossible.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on unknown date, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 19, 2021, 07:40:55 AM
Our judiciary is usually very slow,  but the decision on the election date is urgent and I guess we'll have a rule pretty soon

The 2017 elections were called by the Spanish government, after the unilateral seccession attempt and the suspension of Catalan autonomy.

The date of the 2021 will be determined by the judges

Regardless of whether you support the cause or not  it's undeniable that one of the (undesired) consequences of the sovereigntist process is the weakening of Catalan institutions. Isn't it amazing?

In what concerns comrade Iglesias,  he is desperately attempting to differentiate from the PSOE. Huge blunder


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on unknown date, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 19, 2021, 09:03:17 AM
There is something related to the decree that I should clarify. From what I heard last night to some journalists in a radio podcast, (I havem't read the text), the decree suspends the elections scheduled on February. I mean, unlike I posted before, it does not postpone the election to May 30. That date would be merely an indication and there exists the possibility that elections could be postponed even further and take place by autumn. This is highly irregular from a legal standpoint, as the decision goes beyond the attributions of an interim government. As I said before, elections were called automatically when the legal timeframe to elect a regional president (premier) un replacement of Joaquim Torra expired. Mr Torra was disqualified from office by the judiciary and the coalition partners weren't unable to designate a new candidate due to their big differences (besides, they need the cooperation of the CUP). JxCAT and ERC agreed that deputy premier Pere Aragonés (ERC, Torra is from JxCAT) would act as interim premier with limited powers until elections were called automatically at the end of the timeframe, putting an end to the legislative term.

Despite all parties knew it was irregular, most of them agreed to postpone elections. It was fairly predictable that the High Court could suspend the new decree in case of some organization or particular was appealing. Certainly there exists a health emergency caused by the pandemic, but the decision was also motivated by electoral calculus.  ERC panicked at the 'Illa effect' and its slight decline in the polls, adding to the cause the fears and electoral interests of JxCAT, CUP, PP, Cs and ECP. This absurd situation is also due to lack of foresight. The Portuguese have found ways to go ahead with elections, but Spain is just too complicated and Catalonia is the most complex and surrealistic place of all in our blessed country


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on unknown date, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 21, 2021, 07:29:54 AM
Fantastic CIS poll. Maybe there is a PSC bias, but the 'Illa effect' is apparently real. At this point I think the PSC coming first is feasible, but I think the estimation for Junts (too low) and ECP (too high) is not creídible. Anyway everything is up in the air until the judges speak

PSC 23.9%  30-35 seats
ERC 20.6% 32-34
Junts 12.5% 20-27
ECP 9.7% 9-12
Cs 9.6% 13-15
Vox 6.6% 6-10
CUP 6.0% 8-11
PP 5.8% 7

The rule of the High Court is expected for tomorrow.  Election date will be either February 14 or (perhaps) May 30




Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on unknown date, 2021
Post by: Skye on January 21, 2021, 07:40:39 AM
Our friend Tezanos has a new CIS poll for the Catalan election and well...

()

I think it'd be alright to call this an outlier. Not just because of the PSC number, the most eye popping number is for Junts, who only have 12.5% of the vote, well below what they've gotten in other polls.

Link to the poll: http://datos.cis.es/pdf/3306_Estimacion.pdf

Also BREAKING NEWS while I was typing this: The TSJC will keep February 14 as the date for the election, but the decision isn't final. They have until Feb. 8 to announce a definitive date.

EDIT: Well Velasco beat me to it.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on unknown date, 2021
Post by: Zinneke on January 21, 2021, 07:49:34 AM
Junts and their previous incarnations recently seem to be underpolled for some reason. Maybe too many respondents in BCN-metro area.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on unknown date, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on January 21, 2021, 07:56:58 AM
World elections according to CIS, 2021

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on unknown date, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 21, 2021, 08:17:22 AM
OMG. This is Catalan conundrum amazingly surreal

Junts and their previous incarnations recently seem to be underpolled for some reason. Maybe too many respondents in BCN-metro area.

Sure. The CIS is obviously an outlier. I think Junts will be much closer to the 20% mark and will win around 30 seats... unless the PDeCAT gets more support than expected. The PDeCAT owns the electoral rights of the previous JxCAT incarnation, including free ads in TV. Artur Mas campaigning for the CDC heirs might boost the PDeCAT a little, but he is very reluctant and unwilling to clash with Carles Puigdemont.  On a separate mote,  Pablo Iglesias is doing no favors to Ada Colau granting Puigdemont the title of "republican refugee". Junts represents the opposite things Colau stands for, despite the seemingly populist and post-ideological turn of the new Junts (I don't believe Junts actually "progressive", despite some ERC and PSC splinters have joined the Puigdemont's big tent)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on unknown date, 2021
Post by: CumbrianLefty on January 21, 2021, 08:57:13 AM

Its (almost) like that Jeb! map, but for real ;)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on unknown date, 2021
Post by: Skye on January 21, 2021, 09:01:25 AM

Pain.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Velasco on January 21, 2021, 09:45:06 AM
El Mundo Today has announced several times that North Korea hired the CIS director José Félix Tezanos to conduct government polls, but aparently the man loves our country too much for leaving

https://www.elmundotoday.com/2020/05/corea-del-norte-ficha-a-tezanos-para-sus-encuestas-gubernamentales/



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Velasco on January 22, 2021, 01:31:04 AM
PSC sources say that Health minister Salvaor Illa will resign within next week, in order to contest the Catalan elections. Official campaign begins next Friday, on January 29. The definitive rule of the High Court is expected before February 8

List of parties and coalitions ikely to contest, according to the Catalan Wikipedia

Citizens (Ciutadans, Cs)
Candidate: Carlos Carrizosa
Ideology: liberalism
Position: centre-right, constitutionalist

Republican Left of Catalonia (Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya, ERC)
Candidate: Pere Aragonès (deputy premier, acting as interim premier)
Ideology: social democracy, democratic socialism
Position: centre-left to left-wing, pro-independence
Allied organizations: Nova and Sobiranistes (both splinters of the 'comuns')

Together for Catalonia (Junts per Catalunya, JUNTS)
Candidate: Laura Borràs
Ideology: big tent nationalism, populism
Position: centre-right to centre-left, catch-all-oarty, pro-independence
Allied organizations: Democrats of Catalonia (DC, Unió split), Left Movement (MÉS, PSC split), The Greens-Green Alternative (EV-AV), Independentistes d'Esquerres, Rally for the Independence (RI, ERC split), Catalan Solidarity for the Independence (SI), Action for the Republic (AxR)

Socialists' Party of Catalonia (Partit dels Socialistes de Catalunya, PSC)
Candidate: Salvador Illa (Health minister)
Ideology: social democracy
Position: centre-left, federalist, constitutionalist
Allied organizations: United to Go Forward (Units per Avançar, the heirs of Unió), Unitat d'Aran

In Common We Can (En Comú Podem, ECP)
Candidate: Jessica Albiach
Ideology: democratic socialism, ecosocialism, direct democracy, left-wing populism
Position: left-wing, sovereigntist, confederalist
Member organizations: Catalunya en Comú (CatComú), Podem, United Left Catalonia (EUCat), Equo

Popular Unity Candidacy (Candidatura d'Unitat Popular, CUP)
Candidate: Dolors Sabater
Ideology: socialism, anti-capitalism, direct democracy
Position: far-left, pancatalanist, pro-independence
Allied organizations: Guanyem Catalunya (municipalist alliance), Capgirem, Pirates of Catalonia, Aran Amassa (Occitan nationalist)

People's Party of Catalonia (Partit Popular Catalá, PP)
Candidate: Alejandro Fernández
Ideology: conservatism, christian democracy
Position: centre-right to right-wing, constitutionalist
Allied organizations: Barcelona pel Canvi (the platform led by Manuel Valls)

Catalan European Democratic Party (Partit Demòcrata Europeu Catalá, PDeCAT)  
Candidate: Angels Chacón
Ideology: liberalism
Position: centre-right, pro-independence
Allied organizations: Convergents (CNV)

Vox (VOX)
Candidate: Ignacio Garriga
Ideology: national conservatism, right-wing populsim
Position: right-wing to far-right, centralist

Nationalist Party of Catalonia (Partit Nacionalista de Catalunya, PNC)
Candidate: Marta Pascal
Ideology: liberalism
Position: centre or centre-right, sovereigntist, pro-independence

National Front of Catalonia (Front Nacional de Catalunya, FNC)
Candidate: Albert Pont
Ideology: anti-immigration
Position: far-right, pro-indpendence

Primaries Movement for the Independence of Catalonia (Moviment Primàries per la Independència de Catalunya, MPIC)
ICandidate: Laura Ormella
Ideology: October 1 spirit
Position: pro-independence

Other lists contesting for Barcelona (source GenCat):

Communist Workers' Party of Catalonia (Partit Comunista dels Treballadors de Catalunya, PCTC)

Left in Positive (Izquierda en Positivo, IZQP)

Zero Cuts-Green Group-Municipalists ( Recortes cero - Grup Verd - Municipalistes, RECORTES CERO-GV-M)

https://exteriors.gencat.cat/ca/detalls/noticia/not_210122_candidatures



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: crals on January 22, 2021, 08:29:47 AM
Why did Junts and PDeCat split?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Velasco on January 22, 2021, 10:27:46 AM

The short answer is that the PDeCAT refused to merge in the big tent pro-independence movement Carles Puigdemont wanted to create, while the latter rejected a formal coalition with the heirs of CDC. Rather Puigdemont asked PDeCAT membership to join the new Junts on a individual basis and, as a result of the hostile takeover, the PDeCAT ranks diminished dramatically. You can read the PDeCAT Wikipedia entry for more details, namely the chapter about the reorganization of the post-CDC space

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_European_Democratic_Party

Quote
Throughout 2019, discussions took place on the future of the post-CDC political space, leading to negotiations between the PDeCAT and Puigdemont to bring all three entities resulting from CDC's demise—PDeCAT, JxCat and CNxR—into a single unitary platform under the umbrella of Together for Catalonia, whose naming rights belonged to the PDeCAT.[42][43] Some sectors within the party had been weary of Puigdemont's growing influence and rupturist discourse taking over the traditional moderate political space of the late CDC, as well as his frequent use of independent candidates unrelated to the party's structure (...)  



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Velasco on January 23, 2021, 03:55:05 AM
"Catalan election date uncertainty adds fuel to coronavirus, political crises"

https://english.elpais.com/politics/catalonia_independence/2021-01-22/catalan-election-date-uncertainty-adds-fuel-to-health-political-crises.html

Quote
Catalonia is facing a regional election on February 14 without knowing if there will actually be a vote that day. A legal challenge against the regional government’s recent decision to postpone voting until May 30 means that the final date will remain unclear for days to come. Catalan officials say the postponement is due to the coronavirus health crisis, but the central government suspects electoral calculations: surveys show the Socialist Party (PSOE) candidate rivaling with separatist nominees in voter intention.

Catalonia’s regional High Court (TSJC) this week upheld the original decree calling elections for February 14, and voiding the Catalan government’s postponement. But a final ruling could come as late as February 8 – just six days before voters are asked to go to the polls. Until the definitive decision is in, campaign preparations must resume regardless.

The regional executive, which said it had pushed back the date for public health reasons amid a third wave of the coronavirus, says that the court’s decision “forces Catalans to choose between the right to health and the right to vote.”

According to the Catalan government’s technical reports, the occupation of intensive care beds in the region is due to peak three days before the February election date, and the around 200,000 people estimated to be quarantining or self-isolating around that time would have trouble voting.

Catalonia’s acting premier, Pere Aragonès of the Catalan Republican Left (ERC), said on Wednesday that the court’s actions are affecting the election campaign. Both governing partners, ERC and Junts per Catalunya (Together for Catalonia), view this judicial decision as the latest example of the courts “meddling in Catalonia’s political and institutional life.”

I think that I tried to explain this in a previous post. Apparently one of the main problems is that the Catalan government didn't issue a decree postponing elections to May 30 (date agreed by all parliamentary forces except the PSC). Rather, the decree suspends elections indefinitely and May 30 is merely an indicative date; elections could be further postponed, depending on the pandemic circumstances. This suspension might set a disturbing precedent, moreover a suspension decreed by an interim government. The High Court argues the last decree delaying elections is provisionally suspended because of a "very intense public interest" and in order to prevent falling into "a prolonged period of provisionality". Additionally the judges deem the current state of alarm and the measures to contain the pandemic are not preventing that elections can take place with the due guarantees, but leave the door open to postpone elections in case restrictions intensify (remember that lockdown was in force when Basque and Galician elections were postponed from April to July, 2020).

La Vanguardia reports the Catalan govrnment is resignedly accepting that elections will finally take place on February 14, given that it's unlikely the central government is going to modify the state of alarm decree and enforce a lockdown. So the coalition partners Junts and ERC are beginning to launch attacks on Salvador Illa and the PSC, with Pere Aragonès claiming there is an operation orchestrated by the State ("the PSC points and others do the work"). Vox enters in the scene stating openness to facilitate the investiture of Salvador Illa, in order to prevent the golpistas (the separatist "coup plotters") govern. Of course there's la negligible chance to see the Vox folks becoming the kingmakers of Catalan politics. Meanwhile in Madrid, the PP attacks Illa because he's "disappeared" and hasn't resigned yet

National repercussions of the Catalan elections

Quote
The Catalan election affects more than just the northeastern region. Politicians across Spain were anxiously awaiting a poll that would give way to nearly two whole election-less years in a country that, since 2015, has been through four national elections, a European vote, regional and municipal polls, and two no-confidence motions in parliament.

This long period of rest was meant to facilitate cross-party deals on long-unresolved issues such as judicial reform. It was also hoped that the reduced political tension would benefit relations within the governing coalition of PSOE and Unidas Podemos, and even temper the battle for right-wing supremacy between the PP and Vox.

One of the Spanish government’s top goals for this term, besides getting a budget passed after years of gridlock, was to deal with the Catalan independence crisis. A regular dialogue with ERC, placed on hold until after February 14, is now postponed until an unknown date. And a decision on government pardons for jailed leaders of the 2017 unilateral secession attempt might now have to be taken before the election, adding layers of political complexity to an already sensitive issue.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Velasco on January 24, 2021, 03:52:43 PM
Gonna try to summarize, because the blitzkrieg campaign is already going on

On Saturday the PSOE held a meeting of the Fedreal Committee in Barcelona with Pedro Sánchez, Salvador Illa and a few members on-site and the rest attending on-line or telematically. Obviously the meeting was designed to boost the candidacy of the incumbent Health minister. Pedro Sánchez said in his speech that Salvador Illa is "the change that cannot be prevented" and accused the pro-independence regional government of inventing pretexts for delaying the inevitable. Sánchez did not take for granted that elections will be held on February 14, but remarked that the election date is not as important as the "respect for the rules". While Sánchez used the concept pf "change"; the speech of Illa afterwards was focused in the idea of reunion or re-encounter. Illa claims to be a candidate that seeks to turn the page of a "lost decade" ruled by the sovereigntist process. He's not going to lose a single minute in blaming others, nor asking what they did in the past ten years. He promises neither revenge nor setting the scores, but focusing on the important things: "decent work, public healthcare and social advancements". The leitmotiv of the PSC campaign is that Illa is the best candidate to reunite the Catalans

On that day Nació Digital leaked some texts documenting disagreements within the CUP-Guanyem candidacy. The leading candidate Dolors Sabater, who is a former mayor of Badalona and the leader of Guanyem Catalunya ("Let's Win Catalonia"), stated in previous days that the CUP was ready to enter in a pro-independence coalition government. This created unrest among some factions within the CUP, particularly the influential Endavant ("Forward"). The texts are endorsed by the CUP leadership and opt for disengaging from governability, because it's "a dangerous and irresponsible narrative" that "fosters autonomism" and jeopardizes the rupturist character of the CUP

Vox secretary general Javier Ortega-Smith stated his party would allow the investiture of Salvador Illa, in order to prevent a pro-independence government. ERC, Junts and ECP took asked Salvador Illa to reject the Vox support. Socialists said in no way they will accept the Vox support. The ERC candidate said the Vox statements confirm the existence of a plot orchestrated by the Spanish state to oust nationalists from government.

Seemingly ERC is tempted by or within a strategy to challenge the legitimacy of elections. The candidate and interim premier Pere Aragonès says to El País: "the best way to avoid suspicions on February 14 is to postpone it"

Meanwhile the Junts head of list Carles Puigdemont called for the mobilization of the pro-independence voters, stating this election is under the shadow of the infamous article 155. Puigdemont also said that Pedro Sánchez and Mariano Rajoy are the same thing and trashed Salvador Illa ("one of the worst Health ministers within the EU"). He claims to be embarrassing and bringing the Spanish state down in the EU parliament, thanks to the votes of the Catalan people. The former Catalan premier attended telematically the inaugural campaign act of Junts, with the attendance of candidate Laura Borràs and secretary general Jordi Sánchez.

Cs leader Inés Arrimadas said today in Sabadell that the best chance for a "moderate and sensible" government in Catalonia is a coalition between her party and the PSC, asking to concentrate the constitutionalist vote in Cs



-


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Former President tack50 on January 24, 2021, 05:10:08 PM
Come to think about it, Puigdemont was a pioneer in terms of telematic interventions :P

Before Covid telematic stuff was seen as "oh look at Puigdemont trying to do a rally via Skype from Belgium" while now it is normalized lol


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Velasco on January 25, 2021, 02:11:35 AM
NC Report for La Razón: there is no 'Illa effect'

ERC 33 seats (20.5%)
Junts 32 (19.2%)
PSC 25 (18.7%)
Cs 14 (11.1%)
ECP 8 (7.3%)
PP 8 (6.7%)
CUP 8 (6.1%)
VOX 7 (6.0%)

I think this poll might be biased in the opposite way of the CIS. Or maybe not. Extreme uncertainty makes the outcome unpredictable, but the fact all rival candidates are focusing attacks on Salvador Illa is telling. Regardless he succeeds or not, the move made by Pedro Sánchez and Iván Redondo placing Illa in the last minute caught Junts and ERC unaware


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Skye on January 25, 2021, 06:46:28 AM
Well there's also a new poll from Socométrica:

PSC 21.5 (30-31)
Junts 19.7 (31-33)
ERC 19.3 (29-31)
Cs 11.2 (15-17)
ECP 7.2 (7-8)
PP 5.8 (6-7)
VOX 5.8 (6-7)
CUP 4.9 (5-6)

https://www.elespanol.com/espana/politica/20210125/psc-salvador-illa-empataria-junts-escanos-erc/553695247_0.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1611562578


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Velasco on January 25, 2021, 07:21:45 AM
In my humble opinion, both NC Report and Sociométrica are overestimating Cs. My impression is that Cs will perform in single digits, due to the voters that are not going to show up and heavy losses to the PSC and to the right (unlike other parts of Spain, a good chunk of the Cs support in 2015 and 2017 are centre-left voters opposed to the sovereigntist process).

Sociometrica is also understimating the support for nationalist pro-independence parties. It's highly unlikely they are going to get less than 45%, unless there is a massive 'Illa effect'. I can see a three-cornered contest between ERC, PSC and Junts around the 20% mark, with the rest of parties trailing far behind in the single digits.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Velasco on January 25, 2021, 12:33:35 PM
Salvador Illa will attend his last cabinet meeting tomorrow. Then he will resign his post, not without controversy

https://english.elpais.com/politics/2021-01-25/spains-health-minister-to-bow-out-in-midst-of-third-coronavirus-wave-to-run-in-catalan-elections.html

Quote
Spain’s central government on Monday officially confirmed that the current health minister, Salvador Illa, will leave his role this week and that tomorrow’s Cabinet meeting will be his last. Illa, who has been in charge of the Health Ministry for just over a year, will be running as the candidate for the Catalan Socialist Party (PSC) in the upcoming elections in the northeastern region, which are due to be held on February 14.

The decision is a controversial one, given that he will be leaving the government in the midst of the third wave of the coronavirus pandemic in Spain. Illa has, however, met his promise of remaining in the role until the start of the electoral campaign, which will officially begin on Thursday.

His successor as health minister will assume the role on Wednesday. The most likely person to replace Illa is Carolina Darias, currently the territorial policy minister. Darias has also been in the spotlight during the ongoing health crisis and for weeks has been the government representative who speaks to the press after meetings of the Inter-Territorial Council of the National Health System (CISNS), which brings together the regional health departments and the central Health Ministry to coordinate the handling of the pandemic in Spain.

Government sources have suggested that Darias, in turn, will be replaced by Miquel Iceta, who is currently the head of the PSC and will be relieved by Illa. However, there has been no official confirmation of this. The handover is likely to be announced after Tuesday’s Cabinet meeting, and the ministers will be sworn in the following day



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Velasco on January 26, 2021, 08:18:36 AM
The main candidates contesting Catalan elections are concerned by the expected decrease in turnout, caused by the pandemic and a widespread sense of political weariness. The director of the GESOP polling institute Angels Pont says that "weariness" is the key word to describe the general mood, which is resulting from years of political conflict and deadlock. That weariness is aggravated by the prolonged situation of health emergency- By December 2020 GESOP estimated a turnout between 60% and &5%, down from the record 79% in the hyper-polarized 2017 elections

Turnout in Catalan elections 1980-2017. There has been a sustained increase in the past decade ruled by the sovereigntist process

() (https://imgbb.com/)

Pont says the decrease in turnout will affect all parties, except those with a clear upward trend (which is the case of the PSC right now). The Sci Po professor Lluís Orriols thinks the 'IIla effect' is important right now, but the question is how long it will last because this kind of honeymoon tend to deteriorate pretty fast. The PSC is working to facilitate postal vote, especially for elderly people. Orriols says the loss of aged voters not showing up due to fear of contagion could be compensated by gains from Cs and ECP

Junts is trying to mobilize the pro-independence base conveying a message similar to that of 2017. The problem is that Puigdemont folks were advocating to postpone elections and now they need to convince the most fearful to show up. Thus they resort to indignation and grievance to motivate voters, claiming that democracy is intervened once again by the Spanish state

ERC analysts think that a turnout decrease is not going to affect them in a greater degree than rivals. On the one hand, they deem the lesser significance and dramaticism of this election will demobilize many constitutionalist voters affecting the PSC; on the other hand, the fear of contagion will demobilize aged voters affecting the PSC and Junts.

 
 



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Velasco on January 26, 2021, 09:18:43 AM
Junts candidate Laura Borràs said to journalists that, in case pro-independence parties get more than 50% of the vote, they will implement the "October 1 mandate" (it refers to the irregular referendum held on October 1, 2017). Borràs said that "we exist for this (...) it's in our manifesto (...) the loyalty to October1 and the will to implement its results". Party sources say the statements of Borràs don't imply the automatic proclamation of independence. Borràs also referred to a Junts paper, which lacks mentions to independence proclamation and just states this election will open the door for "a new onslaught for the republic"

Elsa Artadi, the Junts camapign director and a detached Puigdemont loyalist, says this election is a duel between her party and the PSC. Like one of the Junts slogans says, it's a choice between Ella ("She", Laura Borràs) and "Illa" (the PSC candidate). Artadi days that Illa represents the artcle 155 (the repression of the Spanish state), the fascism and the status quo. Illa should resign and go home, according to Artadi

One of the most controversial characters in Junts is Joan Canadell. who is the chair of the Barcelona's Chamber of Commerce. Canadell is placed third in the Junts list after Puigdemont and Borràs. The man is a radical separatist loved by the Junts base. Canadell tweeted some messages sympathizing with Trump by 2016, but after the Capitol events he has denied being a Trumpist

https://www.lavanguardia.com/opinion/20210107/6173098/canadell-trump.html

Much more unpleasant and openly xenophobic is the Josep Sort, placed  the 65th in the Junts slate. Mr Sort has resigned as leader of Reagrupament (Rally for the Independence) over a series of racist and isulting tweets targetting the Barcelona mayor Ada Colau ("a Spanish whore") and promising a cleansing of Spaniards. Sort's nickname is "graccus"



I'd like to know if Pablo Iglesias has anything to say about the fascist allies of Carles Puigdemont, the "republican refugee" exiled in Waterloo



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on January 26, 2021, 12:09:12 PM
I'm sorry to inform Josep Sort that Catalans are, in fact, Spaniards.

I wonder if he meant just Castilians or all non-Catalans though. I have always wondered whether different Spanish regionalist movements and non-Castilian regional identities have resentment towards each other.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Former President tack50 on January 26, 2021, 12:48:12 PM
I'm sorry to inform Josep Sort that Catalans are, in fact, Spaniards.

I wonder if he meant just Castilians or all non-Catalans though. I have always wondered whether different Spanish regionalist movements and non-Castilian regional identities have resentment towards each other.

For what is worth, Catalan nationalists and Basque nationalists (and to a lesser extent, Galician nationalists) have good relations between them

ERC and Bildu are certainly very friendly between them.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Astatine on January 26, 2021, 12:53:27 PM
It fell under the radar, and is a bit off-topic, but RIP UPyD (2007-2020). The party became irrelevant over the last years, but was represented in Parliament from 2008 until 2015. At the point of its dissolution, it had still 1 MEP (Maite Pagazaurtundúa - elected over the Cs list in the 2019 EU elections) and 1 local councillor (out of 67,515).

Apparently, the party was in deep debts and couldn't pay its bills, so a court disbanded it in November, and in December UPyD dropped its appeal against the ruling and officially ceased to exist.
As far as I know, UPyD's last leader Cristiano Brown ran as part of the Cs list in Madrid in the 2019 general elections and could still make it into Parliament if a Cs MP from Madrid resigns from his/her seat.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Velasco on January 26, 2021, 01:40:39 PM
I'm sorry to inform Josep Sort that Catalans are, in fact, Spaniards.

I wonder if he meant just Castilians or all non-Catalans though. I have always wondered whether different Spanish regionalist movements and non-Castilian regional identities have resentment towards each other.

To be fair, Sort represents a minority within the independence movement -or at least that's what I'd like to believe-. But this kind of racist and xenophobic speech exists and deserves to be condemned, as well as similar remarks made by Spanish nationalists. My personal opinion is that the confrontational rhetoric of some nationalist leaders favors more extreme xenophobic stances (and I'm pointing to Puigdemont here, even though I have no evidence that he is personally a racist or a xenophobe)

Catalans are Spaniards under a legal point of view, but the sense of belonging is free and I think those Catalans not identifying themselves as Spaniards deserve respect and their rights must be protected in a democratic state.

The rest of Spain is broader than Castile. I think that, out of the more extreme nationalist elements, the relationship between the different regional identities is not extremely conflictive. There have been always a certain classist attitude of some Catalans towards immigrants from other regions, as well as certain anti-Catalan attitude among certain people in the rest of Spain. The Spanish society is much more civil that the Spanish politicians, as a general rule. However, many people fear that political tension is permeating slowly into the civil society...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Lord Halifax on January 26, 2021, 01:46:06 PM
I'm sorry to inform Josep Sort that Catalans are, in fact, Spaniards.


They are Spanish citizens, but many aren't native Spanish speakers and don't identify as Spaniards. I don't think it's up to foreigners to define who are Spanish.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: It's Perro Sanxe wot won it on January 26, 2021, 02:07:26 PM
I have always wondered whether different Spanish regionalist movements and non-Castilian regional identities have resentment towards each other.

One example of regional resentment, which I happen to know well because I live in Castille and Leon, is the vitriol that many Leonese have for the rest of Castille, and more specifically, Valladolid. The main reason is the fact that León has its own identity but not its own Autonomous Community, being lumped together with what used to be Castilla La Nueva in 1978. They complain that since then Valladolid has had a centralist attitude towards them.

"León sin Castilla es una maravilla" (Leon without Castille is a marvel), or "León capital, Pucela sucursal" (Leon capital, Pucela (Valladolid's nickname) subsidiary) are some of the phrases you might hear if you go to León. Also, be careful if you call a Leonese "Castillian", they may not react very well.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Astatine on January 26, 2021, 02:47:25 PM
It fell under the radar, and is a bit off-topic, but RIP UPyD (2007-2020). The party became irrelevant over the last years, but was represented in Parliament from 2008 until 2015. At the point of its dissolution, it had still 1 MEP (Maite Pagazaurtundúa - elected over the Cs list in the 2019 EU elections) and 1 local councillor (out of 67,515).

Apparently, the party was in deep debts and couldn't pay its bills, so a court disbanded it in November, and in December UPyD dropped its appeal against the ruling and officially ceased to exist.
As far as I know, UPyD's last leader Cristiano Brown ran as part of the Cs list in Madrid in the 2019 general elections and could still make it into Parliament if a Cs MP from Madrid resigns from his/her seat.


A final homage to this obscure, centrist and irrelevant party whose founder went from PSOE to UPyD, only to endorse PP in the last elections.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Velasco on January 26, 2021, 03:28:48 PM
It fell under the radar, and is a bit off-topic, but RIP UPyD (2007-2020). The party became irrelevant over the last years, but was represented in Parliament from 2008 until 2015. At the point of its dissolution, it had still 1 MEP (Maite Pagazaurtundúa - elected over the Cs list in the 2019 EU elections) and 1 local councillor (out of 67,515).

Apparently, the party was in deep debts and couldn't pay its bills, so a court disbanded it in November, and in December UPyD dropped its appeal against the ruling and officially ceased to exist.
As far as I know, UPyD's last leader Cristiano Brown ran as part of the Cs list in Madrid in the 2019 general elections and could still make it into Parliament if a Cs MP from Madrid resigns from his/her seat.
[
A final homage to this obscure, centrist and irrelevant party whose founder went from PSOE to UPyD, only to endorse PP in the last elections.

To be honest, I was unaware of the UPYD's legal demise. So yes, I admit the news fell under my radar. But in no way it's off-topic in this thread. I don't know where is Maite Pagaza now, but certainly the last news I read about Rosa Díez is that she endorsed the PP (Diez had resigned from the party she founded some time before).  Rest In Peace

I remember that I felt a bit sad when I read the news about the dissolution of ICV in 2019, due to a debt amounting to 9.2 million euros. Currently some of the ICV membership is active within Catalunya en Comú (part of En Comú Podem). Iniciativa per Catalunya began as the legal heir of the PSUC, the Catalan communist party counterpart of the Spanish PCE. The post-communists evolved to ecosocialism and ICV became a member party of the European Greens. Some former members talked about the possibility of a refoundation inder the name Esquerra Verda ("Green Left")


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Astatine on January 26, 2021, 04:19:42 PM
It fell under the radar, and is a bit off-topic, but RIP UPyD (2007-2020). The party became irrelevant over the last years, but was represented in Parliament from 2008 until 2015. At the point of its dissolution, it had still 1 MEP (Maite Pagazaurtundúa - elected over the Cs list in the 2019 EU elections) and 1 local councillor (out of 67,515).

Apparently, the party was in deep debts and couldn't pay its bills, so a court disbanded it in November, and in December UPyD dropped its appeal against the ruling and officially ceased to exist.
As far as I know, UPyD's last leader Cristiano Brown ran as part of the Cs list in Madrid in the 2019 general elections and could still make it into Parliament if a Cs MP from Madrid resigns from his/her seat.
[
A final homage to this obscure, centrist and irrelevant party whose founder went from PSOE to UPyD, only to endorse PP in the last elections.

To be honest, I was unaware of the UPYD's legal demise. So yes, I admit the news fell under my radar. But in no way it's off-topic in this thread. I don't know where is Maite Pagaza now, but certainly the last news I read about Rosa Díez is that she endorsed the PP (Diez had resigned from the party she founded some time before).  Rest In Peace

I remember that I felt a bit sad when I read the news about the dissolution of ICV in 2019, due to a debt amounting to 9.2 million euros. Currently some of the ICV membership is active within Catalunya en Comú (part of En Comú Podem). Iniciativa per Catalunya began as the legal heir of the PSUC, the Catalan communist party counterpart of the Spanish PCE. The post-communists evolved to ecosocialism and ICV became a member party of the European Greens. Some former members talked about the possibility of a refoundation inder the name Esquerra Verda ("Green Left")
Maite Pagaza is still a Member of the European Parliament within Renew Europe and part of the Ciudadanos delegation. She never withdrew her membership, so she was truly the "last woman standing", but with the dissolution of UPyD, she should be a nominal independent? Might wonder whether she'd join Cs officially. Don't know about the last municipal representative tho.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: crals on January 26, 2021, 06:04:04 PM
I have always wondered whether different Spanish regionalist movements and non-Castilian regional identities have resentment towards each other.

One example of regional resentment, which I happen to know well because I live in Castille and Leon, is the vitriol that many Leonese have for the rest of Castille, and more specifically, Valladolid. The main reason is the fact that León has its own identity but not its own Autonomous Community, being lumped together with what used to be Castilla La Nueva in 1978. They complain that since then Valladolid has had a centralist attitude towards them.

"León sin Castilla es una maravilla" (Leon without Castille is a marvel), or "León capital, Pucela sucursal" (Leon capital, Pucela (Valladolid's nickname) subsidiary) are some of the phrases you might hear if you go to León. Also, be careful if you call a Leonese "Castillian", they may not react very well.
I've always wondered, why isn't León its own autonomous region?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Velasco on January 26, 2021, 06:25:19 PM
Maite Pagaza is still a Member of the European Parliament within Renew Europe and part of the Ciudadanos delegation. She never withdrew her membership, so she was truly the "last woman standing", but with the dissolution of UPyD, she should be a nominal independent? Might wonder whether she'd join Cs officially. Don't know about the last municipal representative tho.

I forgot she was in the Cs list for the 2019 EP elections. Maite Pagaza was placed as high as the second
In the slate (the head of list was economist Luis Garicano), possibly because of her name recognition as a leading representative of the ETA victims. Her brother Joseba was a local police chief in Andoain (Gipuzkoa, Basque Country) and a PSOE member when he was murdered. I ignore if she has requested formally the Cs membership, the Wikipedia entry does not provide enough information. Anyway the future of Cs doesn't look very bright right now and a collapse in the upcoming elections in Catalonia would jeopardize the continuity of the orange party. The last UPYD leader Cristiano Brown was councilor in Las Rozas  (Madrid) until 2019. I made a Google search and found out the last UPYD councilor was a certain Luis Polanco from Mejorada del Campo,  a small town in the region of Madrid


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Velasco on January 27, 2021, 03:17:55 AM
I have always wondered whether different Spanish regionalist movements and non-Castilian regional identities have resentment towards each other.

One example of regional resentment, which I happen to know well because I live in Castille and Leon, is the vitriol that many Leonese have for the rest of Castille, and more specifically, Valladolid. The main reason is the fact that León has its own identity but not its own Autonomous Community, being lumped together with what used to be Castilla La Nueva in 1978. They complain that since then Valladolid has had a centralist attitude towards them.

"León sin Castilla es una maravilla" (Leon without Castille is a marvel), or "León capital, Pucela sucursal" (Leon capital, Pucela (Valladolid's nickname) subsidiary) are some of the phrases you might hear if you go to León. Also, be careful if you call a Leonese "Castillian", they may not react very well.
I've always wondered, why isn't León its own autonomous region?

I'm not sure, but probably the creation of the Castille and Leon region was motivated by economic reasons. I guess that it made more sense a new region encompassing the northern half of the Spanish inner plateau (Meseta Central), instead of maintaining the "historical regions" of Leon and the Old Castille (Castilla La Vieja). Actually the provinces of Logroño and Santander secceeded from Castilla La Vieja to become the autonomous communities of La Rioja and Cantabria, which makes sense from a geographical point of view as La Rioja is located in the Ebro valley and Cantabria on the northern coast. Valladolid is located in the middle of the northern plateau, so it's the main transport hub and the natural centre of the region. It's not strange that the rest of the region resents the Valladolid centralism, especially the parts that once were in the old Kingdom of Leon (which eventually merged with Castiille in 1230)

On the other hand, intra-regional rivalry is very common in Spain. In the Canary Islands (my region) there exists the historical antagonism between the two main islands containing the regional capitals: Tenerife (Santa Cruz) and Gran Canaria (Las Palmas). Las Palmas province was created as late as 1927, spltting from the old province that encompassed all the archipelago with capital in Tenerife. There have been advocates of creating two separate autonomous communities in the Canaries, actually


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Zinneke on January 27, 2021, 03:38:11 AM
Gijon-Oviedo is another example.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Velasco on January 28, 2021, 04:25:42 PM
No surprises in the cabinet reshuffle triggered by the departure of Salvador Illa. Carolina Darias, who was serving as minister of Territorial Policy, has replaced Illa at the head of the Health Ministry. Darias is a rather unknown Canarian socialist with a vast experience in public administration. The new minister of Territorial Policy, in replacement of Darias, is the leader of the PSC Miquel Iceta. Both will have to work close to each other in the coordination of the response to the pandemic. The new Health minister will head a meeting to discuss coronavirus issues

https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2021-01-28/spanish-health-ministry-wants-corrective-measures-against-vaccination-irregularities.html

Quote
The Spanish Health Ministry will ask regional governments to closely monitor the Covid-19 vaccine administration process, to avoid new cases of people getting immunized ahead of time thanks to their influence or contacts.

Spain is struggling to contain a surge in coronavirus cases that is stretching hospitals to the breaking point in several parts of the country. On Thursday afternoon, Portugal said it will close its border with Spain on Friday for at least two weeks in a bid to curb its own soaring caseload.

A draft ministry document first reported by the daily El Mundo and which EL PAÍS has seen asks regional authorities for “preventive and corrective measures” to guarantee that shots are administered according to the government’s list of priority groups. What these measures should be is not specified.

The first stage of the vaccination campaign seeks to immunize care home residents and employees, healthcare workers and people with need for daily assistance who are not living in care facilities. But in recent days there have been reports about hundreds of ineligible individuals who managed to get vaccinated ahead of time – including politicians, a bishop and an army general.

“This is not just about responsibility, it’s also about solidarity with the most vulnerable segment of the population and with those who are most exposed to the virus,” reads the document, to be presented at a meeting of central and regional health officials on Thursday afternoon.

The official campaign starts at midnight in Catalonia.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Velasco on January 29, 2021, 06:12:47 AM
A potential meme source: Catalonia’s new space program will begin with nanosatellite launch from Kazakhstan

https://english.elpais.com/science_tech/2021-01-28/catalonias-new-space-program-will-begin-with-nanosatellite-launch-from-kazakhstan.html

Quote
A date has been set for the launch of Catalonia’s first nanosatellite.

 On March 20, at 7.07am Spanish time, a rocket will lift off from Baikonur, in Kazakhstan, to release the first spacecraft built as part of the New Space strategy developed by the Catalan government, which is expected to pour €18 million into the program over the next four years.

This first launch will improve connectivity in the Spanish northeastern region, while a second nanosatellite due to go into space late this year or in early 2022 will provide images of the Earth and help fight climate change.

In late October the Catalan government announced plans to create its own space agency and develop a new sector that is expected to create 1,200 jobs. The tiny satellites, which are the size of a shoebox, weigh between one and 10 kilograms, and cost a fraction of conventional ones, are packed with technology and have become very popular since 2014.

But the decision to create a Catalan space program at a time of economic crisis has drawn criticism. At a news conference on Wednesday, the Catalan chief of digital policy, Jordi Puigneró, defended the initiative.

“Some people may wonder if, against the backdrop of the [coronavirus] pandemic, it is necessary for the [Catalan] government to spend its time launching nanosatellites,” he said. “The answer is yes: we have to do it because we need to transform the country’s economy. We are also told that this money would buy untold amounts of school lunch subsidies, but what we need to do is to create wealth so that we do not have to hand out so many.”

Maybe Puigneró has a point in what concerns the investment in technology to create wealth (neoliberals fail to understand that school lunch subsidies are a priority, though) but, on the other hand, one of the main criticisms to the Catalan government is that the focus on the sovereigntist process distracts from day-to-day management. The most important issue in times to come is how to invest the EU reconstruction funds, in order to create a base for the modernization of the economy. This is not at the heart of the discussions right now, neither in Barcelona nor in Madrid. Catalonia is still one of the wealthiest Spanish regions, bit it began to lose weight before the start of the sovereigntist process and it has been surpassed by Madrid. There exists a fear of decadence



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Velasco on January 29, 2021, 06:46:20 AM
CEO

ERC 22.0% (35-37)
Junts 20.7% (32-34)
PSC 19.6% (26-29)
Cs 9.6% (12-13)
PP 7.0% (9)
ECP 6.5% (6-8)
CUP 6.2% ( 8 )
Vox 4.8% (5-6)
PDeCAT 2.3% ( - )


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Former President tack50 on January 29, 2021, 07:25:44 AM
As I always try to do, here is a list of all the election posters for the 2021 Catalan elections, as well as the various campaign slogans.

ERC: Al costat de la gent (Alongside the people)

()

Junts: Junts per fer, Junts per ser (Together to do, Together to be)

()

Cs: Para que ganemos TODOS (so that EVERYONE wins)

(Huge image that breaks the site, so it gets inside a spoiler tag)

Spoiler alert! Click Show to show the content.



PSC: Fem-ho (Let's do it)

(huge image that breaks the site, gets inside spoiler tag)

Spoiler alert! Click Show to show the content.



CUP: Per guanyar (To win)

()

En Comú Podem: El canvi que Catalunya mereix (The change that Catalonia deserves)

()

PP: Una Cataluña mejor (A better Catalonia)

(big image, spoiler tags)

Spoiler alert! Click Show to show the content.



Not sure if the emoji appears in the actual campaign posters or not but it is hilarious

Vox: Recuperem Catalunya (Take back Catalonia)

()



Interesting things to note:

1) ERC has plenty of posters for the different ERC members of the regional cabinet and other high profile figures. I took the main poster (with candidate Pere Aragones)

2) Junts seems to have backed down on the Puigdemont mania, though there are still plenty of campaign materials with Puigdemont

3) PSC's election posters seem very bland and boring to me

4) For the first time ever, CUP does some personality based posters. Because of their non-hierarchical structure and strict term limits; CUP always went with posters without the main candidate in them

5) WTF was PP thinking with that emoji? By the way, their Twitter header (https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_banners/77963344/1610038145/600x200) is just as bad or even worse

6) Surprisingly, Vox has decided to use their slogan in Catalan, instead of Spanish.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: kaoras on January 29, 2021, 07:41:23 AM
The new version of the Cs heart is really ugly. In the same note, I hate that the boring /♥️ is the new PSOE logo. Their traditional logo with the fist and the rose is so good, they should keep that. (I think even the red square alone is better)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Velasco on January 29, 2021, 07:51:49 AM
I don't have a great opinion of any of these campaign posters. Quite possibly the best, in terms of graphic design, is the Junts affiche ("Laura Presidenta")

Thanks for the pics, but I miss the PDeCAT poster with Angels Chacón


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Former President tack50 on January 29, 2021, 07:59:37 AM
I don't have a great opinion of any of these campaign posters. Quite possibly the best, in terms of graphic design, is the Junts affiche ("Laura Presidenta")

Thanks for the pics, but I miss the PDeCAT poster with Angels Chacón

Interestingly, I don't think the Junts one is all that good. My favourite (or more accurately, least bad) might be the Vox and ERC ones to me. Vox is perhaps a bit too repetitive given they always use that style for almost everything, but still looks good to me. ERC is the best and has a fairly imaginative design; though I think they should use a darker shade of yellow

Per requested, here is a PDeCat poster:

PDeCat: Si t'ho penses, PDeCat (if you are thinking about it, PDeCat)

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Velasco on January 29, 2021, 08:02:39 AM
The Vox poster scares me. Loads of aggressiveness and testosterone. Abascal and Garriga look like two Salvini clones. Condottieri

The PP emoji is awful, definitely


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Skye on January 29, 2021, 08:38:09 AM
The Vox poster scares me. Loads of aggressiveness and testosterone. Abascal and Garriga look like two Salvini clones. Condottieri

The PP emoji is awful, definitely

That PP emoji is extremely cursed.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Velasco on January 29, 2021, 09:26:34 AM
The Vox poster scares me. Loads of aggressiveness and testosterone. Abascal and Garriga look like two Salvini clones. Condottieri

The PP emoji is awful, definitely

That PP emoji is extremely cursed.

Indeed. The funny thing is that the Alejandro Fernández emoji is real and, according to the suspicious 'vozpopuli', some people within the PP is complaining because it's... yellow. Mind that yellow is the color of the Catalan separatists. Maybe Vox will use the emoji against the PP. Hilarious


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Lexii, harbinger of chaos and sexual anarchy on January 29, 2021, 09:39:43 AM
The Vox poster scares me. Loads of aggressiveness and testosterone. Abascal and Garriga look like two Salvini clones. Condottieri

The PP emoji is awful, definitely

That PP emoji is extremely cursed.

Indeed. The funny thing is that the Alejandro Fernández emoji is real and, according to the suspicious 'vozpopuli', some people within the PP is complaining because it's... yellow. Mind that yellow is the color of the Catalan separatists. Maybe Vox will use the emoji against the PP. Hilarious

I concur with kaoras on the socialist logo. I think I would have preserved the rose

Yep, Fernández's emoji thing is real indeed, I'll post some proof mainly because it so ...uh... 🙄



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on January 29, 2021, 01:18:07 PM
I just can't

The PP emoji, in terms of electoral campaign moments, is Dukakis-tank-photo-op tier of bad, I suppose.

Este #14F vota cualquier partido excepto el PP por una Cataluña sin emojis atroces


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Velasco on January 29, 2021, 03:18:19 PM
Interesringly the CEO poll released today shows that independence is the preferred solution to the territorial conflict for 33.5% of Catalans, the lowest percentage since the beginning of the sovereigntist process (the peak was 48.5% in November 2013).  The federal solution gets 26.5% ad the status quo (autonomous community) gets 26%. The reason, according to Ignacio Molina (Elcano Institute), is that ERC voters are becoming more pragmatic. Junts voters go in the opposite direction and turn to be increasingly rupturist. The conclusion is that separatism as a phenomenon is drifting rightwards

Independence as preferred option among nationalist voters:

1T 2014
CiU/JxC: 74'7%
ERC: 88'3%

1T 2015
CiU/JxC: 72'3%
ERC: 88'2%

1T 2018
CiU/JxC: 79'2%
ERC: 70'8%

1T 2020
CiU/JxC: 84'3%
ERC: 60'3%

#CEO d'avui (Jan. 2021)
CiU/JxC: 90'3%
ERC: 51'5%  




Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Velasco on January 30, 2021, 02:22:26 PM
The emoji of the PP candidate Alejandro Fernández is impressive, but I need to mention the glorious Cs campaign: Vota Abrazo ("Vote Hug"). The posters showed different persons hugging themselves ("it would be so nice we could hug to each other"), but sadly they have been removed from the streets. Apparently the brilliant publicists hired by Cs stole the images appearing in the posters from Shutterstock, an image bank that bans the use of stuff for political purposes. Loads of memes

 

I remember the Cs campaign posters in 2017 were excellent, the best alongside JxCAT. What a decadence, let's hug ourselves

On a separate note I heard in the Piedras de  Papel Twitch channel (Lluís Orriols et alii) that Junts voters are apparently the most motivated, or the least demobilized. Someone said that JxCAT is like Real Madrid, the team that wins matches in the last minute. I wouldn't underestimate the chances of victory of Puigdemont troupe. Personally I think a Junts upset victory would be terrific, both for Catalonia and the governabilbity of Spain. Additionally candidate Laura Borràs is promising to implement the "October 1 mandate" and make the Spanish state disappear from Catalonia. In my opinion Junts is going full populist


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021 (provisionally)
Post by: Former President tack50 on January 30, 2021, 03:40:59 PM
Not sure if Velasco already mentioned it, but courts have ruled that the election will be on the 14th of February, for sure now.

https://www.elperiodico.com/es/elecciones-catalunya/20210129/fiscalia-tsjc-fecha-elecciones-catalanas-11484508


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 31, 2021, 10:48:34 AM
Interesting analysis in La Vanguardia about the evolution of the ideological self-placement of Catalan nationalists

https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20210131/6209640/independentismo-izquierda.html

Currently only 1/5 of Catalans identify themselves as centre-right or right-wing, the remaining 4/5 identify as centre-left or left-wing. Decades ago CiU represented a good share of the electorate which identified as ascentre-right and Catalanist. Nowadays there are virtually no Catalan nationalists placing in that side of the ideological spectrum. In the 1990s more than a half of CiU voters identitied as centre-right, amounting some 800k (in addition to 400k PP voters to their right); curently nearly all the JxCAT constituency (amounting 900k) identify as centre-left, nearly on par with the PSC. Nowadays an overwhelming majority of the voters identifying as centre-right and right-wing are supporters of the Spanish right (Cs, PP and Vox)

The question is whether that turn to the Left of the Catalan nationalism is real. The ideological evolution of the CiU/JxCAT supporters could be the result of a genuine perception, as well as a consequence of generational replacement. However, there exists the possibility of a false perception induced by the association of conservative ideology and Spanish nationalism, which is the narrative promoted by the Catalan independence movement. Evidence of the latter is that, when asked about ideological issues such as taxation or the role of the State, many of these alleged leftists answer like centrists or rightists. The sovereigntist process might have provoked a metamorphosis in the ideological identity of the Catalans (particularly those placed in the post-CDC space), creating a strange and unrecognizable landscape (like in Kafka)

Personally I deem Junts a post-modern party


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on January 31, 2021, 05:39:36 PM
New GESOP poll. The PSC is still leading, but the competition between ERC and Junts for the leadership of the pro-independence camp tightens the contest. Undecided amount 31.6% (52.2% contrary to independence and 29.6% pro independence)

PSC 24.0% (34-35 seats)
ERC 19.8% (31-32)
Junts 19.1% (30-31)
Cs 9.0% (11-12)
PP 6.3% (8-9)
ECP 6.3% (6-7)
CUP 5.3% (6-7)
VOX 5.2% (5-6)
PDeCAT 1.1% (0)

Possible coalitions /majority: 68 seats)
PSC+ERC+ECP 71-72 seats (PSC+ERC 65-67)*
ERC+Junts+CUP 67-70 seats (ERC+Junts 61-63)**

https://www.elperiodico.com/es/elecciones-catalunya/20210131/encuesta-elecciones-cataluna-2021-indecisos-suben-11488422

Personally I prefer this scenario, but think the CEO projected result is more plausible (discounting a possible nationalist bias)

* ERC and PSC candidates have ruled out the possibility of a coalition. Some analysts say that a clear victory of either party could open the door to a minority left-wing government led by one of the two and tolerated by the other (more likely in case ERC was the winner, I think). ECP is openly advocating a left.wing tripartite coalition with ERC and PSC, deemed by Pere Aragonès (ERC) as a "Frankenstein coalition" in a recent debate (Aragonès stole that expression to the deceased PSOE leader Alfredo Pérez Rubalcaba)

** The relationship between ERC and Junts is increasingly strained, but most analysts still deem a coalition between the two nationalist rivals as the most likely post-election outcome. However, in case ERC and Junts are lacking a majority, getting the outside support of the CUP is bot going to be easy. The rupturist rhetoric of Junts (Laura Borràs says now that "implementing the October 1 mandate" would be just another symbolic gesture) promises the perpetuation of political stalemate. In case Junts is the winner, this trend aggravates with likely repercussions in national politics. A Junts victory over ERC would imply an amendment of the ERC's strategy of relative moderation in search of broadening the pro-independence base. The willingness of ERC to reach agreements with the PSOE-UP government in the Spanish parliament would be affected


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 01, 2021, 06:22:17 AM
Sigma Dos / NC Report polls

PSC 22.5% (29-32) / 19.6% (29)
ERC 21 2% (31-32) / 21.2 % (32)
JUNTS 20.7% (30-32) / 19.6% (32)
CS 10 3% (12-14) / 10.8% (13)
ECP 7.3% (7-8) / 6.9%  ( 8 )
PP 5.6% (6-7) / 6.7% ( 8 )
CUP 5.3% (5-7) / 5.8% (7)
VOX 5.1% (6-7) / 5.6% (6)

Last night there was a debate with the 9 main candidates  (all parliamentary forces plus Vox) broadcasted by TVE for all Spain. The candidates of ERC, Junts, CUP, PDeCAT and sometimes ECP refused to speak in Spanish, so TVE resorted to simultaneous translation. The workers of the public broadcaster complained because the language diversity of Spain was not taken into account and the chosen moderator was not a member of the TVE staff in Catalonia  I didn't watch it, but press reports say PSC candidate Salvador Illa was the target of most attacks, followed by the ERC candidate Pere Aragonès. The latter proposed Illa a face-to-face debate to discuss Catalan independenc and the socialist candidate apparently accepted, but it's not likely he will find room in the agenda.

In the news, Barcelona mayor Ada Colau says that PSC and ERC must allow that one of the two governs. Singer/songwriter and former JxSi candidate for Girona Lluís Llach endorses the CUP because "it defends public healthcare"


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 03, 2021, 04:09:41 PM
The Eix Transversal ("transversal axis") will be a battleground for the duel between ERC and Junts (JxCAT), the struggle for hegemony within the Catalan pro-independence camp. This "transversal axis" connects the provincial capitals of Lleida and Girona bypassing the Barcelona metroplitan region (see map below), forming the main road of the rere-país ("back country"). The article in El Periódico linked below analyzes the 2019 General Election results (April and November) in the regional centres along that important corridor, focusing on ERC and JxCAT

https://www.elperiodico.com/es/elecciones-catalunya/20210203/batalla-eix-transversal-erc-junts-elecciones-cataluna-2021-11495688

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The Eix Transversal crosses 9 comarcas (counties) ñocated in 3 provinces (Barcelona, Girona and Lleida). ERC came first in the two general elections that took place in 2019. However ERC lost votes between April and November, while JxCAT got more votes in November despite turnout decreased by 8%.

Results in the Eix Transversdal comarcas

April 2019: ERC 183,038 votes / JCAT 122,020 votes

November 2019: ERC 148,942 / JxCAT 123,890

In November JxCAT surpassed ERC in the comarcas and regional centres located north in this corridor: Gironès (Girona) and Osona (Vic)

Possible reasons:

The ERC's leading candidate in the April 2019 elections was Oriol Junqueras, while the ledading candidate in November 2019 was Gabriel Rufián. Junqueras is the party leader and was the deputy premier during the events of September and October 2017. In October 2019 the ERC leader was sentenced to 13 years in prison and disqualified, so he couldn't be candidate in the November 2019 electins. Junqueras has more appeal among the nationst voters of inland Catalonia, while Gabriel Rufián is a candidate with more appeal in Metropoloitan Barcelona (Rufián has Andalusian origins and his command of Catalan is not perfect). The wave of indignation after the rule of the Supreme Court favored the more intransigent JxCAT over ERC  in November; additionally the CUP decided to contest disputing the left-wing natinalist vote.

You can see the graphs with the ERC and JxCAT general election results in the article, so I'll post the 2017 regional election results

Lleida (provincial capital)

JxCAT 23.05%
 ERC 22.82%
 (leading party Cs 24.54%)

Mollerussa

JxCAT 39.17%
ERC 22.86%

Tàrrega

JxCAT 37.87%
ERC 26.41%

Cervera

JxCAT 36.37%
ERC 24.9%

Manresa (main town in Central catalonia, located in Barcelona province)

JxCAT 33.13%
ERC 23.93%

Vic (nationalist stronghold in Osona, Barcelona province)

JxCAT 44.39%
ERC 23.76%

Girona (provincial capital)

JxCAT 36.85%
ERC 18.65% (third party behind Cs)

As you can see JxcAT achieved a clear lead in all the main towns of the corridor, with the exception of Lleida (three-cornered contest with Cs and ERC). JxCAT got an advantage of only 12k over ERC in the overall result, because the hegemony of the Puigdemont party in these inland comarcas was compensated by stronger ERC performances in Metropolitan Barcelona and the southernmost comarcas of Tarragona province


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 03, 2021, 04:24:12 PM
Leading party by municipality in 2017

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Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 04, 2021, 09:24:49 AM
PP's structural corruption: former treasurer Luis Bárcenas sents a letter to prosecutor promising to cooperate with new revelations

https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2021-02-04/ex-treasurers-revelations-rattle-spains-popular-party-ahead-of-illegal-funding-trial.html

Quote
New revelations from the former treasurer of Spain’s Popular Party (PP), Luis Bárcenas, who is serving a 29-year sentence over a sweeping graft case known as Gürtel, could affect the outcome of a new trial probing an illegal funding system run by the conservative group (...)

Now, with less than a week to go before the start of a trial over the PP’s alleged illegal funding – in which Bárcenas is the main accused party and faces a five-year sentence – the former treasurer has sent prosecutors a letter expressing his “desire to cooperate with the justice system.” José María Aznar and Mariano Rajoy, two former prime ministers who served at the time when the PP was allegedly running this parallel accounting system, will appear in court as witnesses.

In the letter, to which EL PAÍS has had access, Bárcenas suggests that several public contracts may have been awarded to companies in exchange for corporate donations under Aznar, who was in office between 1996 and 2004.

Judge Santiago Pedraz of Spain’s High Court, the Audiencia Nacional, is investigating 23 contracts worth a combined €600 million awarded by five ministries under the Aznar administration between 2000 and 2004. Many contracts went to a building company named Constructora Hispánica, whose owner, Alfonso García Pozuelo, was a major party donor who made nine contributions in different years (...)


In his written confession to corruption prosecutors, Bárcenas also says that in 2009 he showed documents proving the PP’s illegal financing to then-prime minister Mariano Rajoy, and that the latter put the papers in a shredder, unaware that Bárcenas had made copies, “many of which were stolen from my wife’s studio when it was broken into.” According to Bárcenas, Rajoy was “perfectly aware” of the existence of this parallel accounting system.
  

It has surfaced that far-right journalist Federico Jiménez Losantos was in the PP's payroll to spread conspiracy theories on the authorship of the Madrid bombings (March 11, 2004). Ironically the Bárcenas revelations might favor Vox, the party that Losantos currently supports

In other news, a new performative poll conducted by the Tezanos institute puts Salvador Illa's PSC ahead in the Catalan contest. Meanwhile ERC and Junts are falling out because Laura Borràs said that Oriol Junqueras was in prison for corruption charges. Borràs is being investigated by the Supreme Court  for alleged prevarication, fraud and emblezzement . The ERC secretary general Marta Rovira, who lives in Geneva since March 2018, demanded Borràs an apology


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on February 04, 2021, 09:31:19 AM
It has surfaced that far-right journalist Federico Jiménez Losantos was in the PP's payroll to spread conspiracy theories on the authorship of the Madrid bombings (March 11, 2004). Ironically the Bárcenas revelations might favor Vox, the party that Losantos currently supports

In other news, a new performative poll conducted by the Tezanos institute puts Salvador Illa's PSC ahead in the Catalan contest. Meanwhile ERC and Junts are falling out because Laura Borràs said that Oriol Junqueras was in prison for corruption charges. Borràs is being investigated by the Supreme Court  for alleged prevarication, fraud and emblezzement . The ERC secretary general Marta Rovira, who lives in Geneva since March 2018, demanded Borràs an apology

Likelihood that either of these news has any significant impact at the polls?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 04, 2021, 11:05:51 AM

Likelihood that either of these news has any significant impact at the polls?

The revelations of former treasurer Luis  Bárcenas might affect the PP and favor Vox in Catalonia. Both parties are polling low nombers and have obviously no chances of winning, but they have a particilar contest. If Vox gets more votes than the PP, that will have some repercussions in the contest for the leadership of the Spanish Right.  The PP has a huge problem, because its corruption is structural and the party has been irregularly funded since its very foundation.

The electoral impact of the squabble between ERC and Junts will be negligible, if there's any. ERC leader Oriol Junqueras is jailed because of his role in the events of September and October 2017. He is not a corrupt, despite one of the charges against him was emblezzement (distracting funds for the illegal referendum). In any case, Junqueras is one of the martyrs of the sovereigntist process. Currently he and the other jailed politicians are under a third grade regime (until Supreme Court says otherwise) , so they can go out and participate in rallies and campaign acts. On the other hand, Junts candidate Laura Borràs is under investigation for alleged irregularities in contract awards during her tenure as director of the Catalan Letters Institute. But the allegations were known before she was selected candidate and there is not going to be s court rule before elections take place. Junts is not polling that bad and has chances of winning, so...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 06, 2021, 08:44:30 AM
Here is a very interesting report on the electorates of the different parties for the upcoming Catalan elections

https://www.naciodigital.cat/noticia/215437/perfil-votant-quins-son-mes-formats-rics-envellits-amb-mes-funcionaris

My summary:

By gender: PSC and (surprisingly) PDECat have a rather feminized electorate, while as you may expect, the radical parties of CUP on one side and Vox on the other have very masculine electorates. All the other parties are essencially 50-50.

By age: Again as you may expect the parties that rely the heaviest on young voters are UP and CUP; but interestingly also Vox. On the opposite end, the oldest electorates are those of PP, PDECat and to a lesser extent Junts and PSC

By rural vs urban: The parties that have their biggest bases in small municipalities (under 10k people) are as you may expect the secessionists of ERC, Junts and PDECat. Interestingly, Vox has the biggest rural base among unionists. On the opposite end of the scale, the most Barcelona city heavy electorates are those of Comuns, Cs, PP and CUP.

By (self identified) religion: The most devoutly Catholic electorates are those of PP, PDECat, Cs and to a lesser extent Junts and PSC. There are 2 parties that stick out a lot by having extremely secular electorates, CUP and Comuns.

As for minor religions, most evangelic/protestant heavy parties are the unionist parties of PP, PSC, Cs and Vox. Most muslim heavy parties meanwhile are surprisingly PSC and PP. Though I imagine these two must have very small sample sizes

By education: 3 parties stick out for having bases that are extremely heavily reliant on uneducated voters, with only a year 10 education or less: PP, PSC and Vox. On the opposite end of the scale, CUP's electorate is by far the most college educated one; it's not even close

By income: The parties most reliant on poor voters is PSC by far, followed by PP and Vox. The ones with the richest voters are Junts, but interestingly also CUP (parents' cash?)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on February 06, 2021, 08:51:09 AM
1. So well-off Catalans are separatists and poorer ones are unionists? Shocked, shocked I tell you. Who could have guessed?

2. How many Evangelicals live in Spain exactly? And are they particularly overrepresented in Catalonia?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 06, 2021, 09:04:16 AM
1. So well-off Catalans are separatists and poorer ones are unionists? Shocked, shocked I tell you. Who could have guessed?

2. How many Evangelicals live in Spain exactly? And are they particularly overrepresented in Catalonia?

1) Well yes and no. Poor Catalans are unionists indeed. However, the super super rich Catalans (literally the 1%) are also unionists, the richest precincts in Catalonia give PP/Cs their best results in the region.

However yeah, the average unionist is poorer than the average secessionist. This is a 2017 poll but shows the point pretty well. Note how secessionism peaks on the "Upper middle class" before dipping down slightly among the wealthiest (and how people who don't want to disclose their income lean heavily unionist)

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2) If I am not mistaken, somewhere around 1% of Spain's population is evangelical or protestant; and that number rises to around 2% in Catalonia. However they are just such a small sample size that I would not trust the numbers much



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 06, 2021, 01:53:36 PM
2) If I am not mistaken, somewhere around 1% of Spain's population is evangelical or protestant; and that number rises to around 2% in Catalonia. However they are just such a small sample size that I would not trust the numbers much

 According to the 2008 census there were 1.2 million of protestants, of which 0.4 were Spanish citizens and 0 8 foreign residents (mainly from UK, USA and Germany).  Possibly there are more protestants now in 2021. It's important to note that many Spanish Evangelicals are gypsy. There were massive conversions in late XX century, to the point that currently there are more Evangelicals than Catholics among the Spanish gypsies. The most famous evangelical gypsy is the Catalan singer Peret,  the father of the Rumba Catalana.




According to the same 2008 census, there were 1 million of residents coming from countries with Orthodox tradition (Tomania  Bulgaria  Rissia, Ukraine) and 0.9 million coming from Muslim countries.

The Islamic population in 2020 was estimated in more than 2 million, of which 0.8 or 0.9 would be Spanish citizens and 1.2 million foreign citizens (Morocco and others). Catalonia is the region with the largest Muslim community and it has the highest proportion of Muslims in mainland Spain. Ceuta and Melilla are obviously the territories with the highest share, to the point that Melilla has a Muslim majority


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 06, 2021, 03:12:54 PM
The Feedback poll released by the pro-independence El Nacional is remarkable

PSC 23.1% (33-34)
JxCAT 20.0% (31-34)
ERC 19.4% (29-32)
CUP 7.7% (9-11)
Cs 7.4% (9-10)
ECP 7.3% (8-10)
VOX 6.1% (6-9)
PP 3.9% (3-4)

Not sure if I buy this estimation. However, there are interesting trends.  From what I heard in the last transmission of the Piedras de Papel Twicht channel:

a) Analyzing CIS and CEO data, JxCAT and CUP voters are apparently the most motivated to show up

b) Transfers from JxCAT to ERC are negligible, so the Puigdemont party has recovered all the voters swinging to ERC in previous polls. JxCAT or JUNTS is more an electoral machine than a party

c) Transfers from Cs to PSC are higher than transfers from ECP to PSC. Transfers between blocs are negligible, likewise transfers between ERC and PSC or viceversa (CIS and CEO figures differ on the direction of said transfers)

d) PP and Cs voters are the more demobilized. Cs is losing a lot of Spanish nationalist voters to Vox


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 06, 2021, 03:13:05 PM
Since many will want one as well, here is one of the classic "Who should you vote for?" tests for the Catalan election. Only available in Spanish and Catalan unfortunately

https://politigram.cat/

I am not sure if the GIFs make it the best or the worst such test ever :P I genuinely recommend that even if Google translate breaks the test, you should still take it only to watch the cringe GIFs

Here are my results for reference:

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Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 06, 2021, 03:38:53 PM
ECP 90.2, PSC 80.4, ERC 76.5, CUP 74.3, JxCAT 52.6, Cs 45.0, PP 41.7, Vox 31.2

I don't disagree with the results, but not a fan of the GIFs



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 07, 2021, 08:44:58 PM
The GESOP poll released this weekend predicts a sharp decrease in turnout (estimated between 56% and 58%, more than 20% below 2017) motivated by pandemic fear, with devastating effects for PP and Cs. Sigma Dos (El Mundo) and Opinómetre (Ara) predict a three-cirnered contest. I think predicting which party will come first is hazardous; my bet right now is that PSC gets more popular vote and Junts wins more seats. The trend is that Vox will surpass the PP, which is terrible news for Pablo Casado

GESOP/Sigma Dos/Opinómetre

PSC  23.0/22.9/20.7
ERC  20.8/20.8/21.8
Junts 18.8/21.4/19.7
Cs 7.6/9.2/8.4
ECP 7.7/7.0/6.9
CUP 6.3/5.7/6.6
VOX 6.9/5.4/5.2
PP  3.8/5.6/5.0

Mail vote requests have increased exponentially. Meanwhile more than 1/4 of the people appointed to be members of the polling stations have appealed, creating uncertainty on the formation of the different polling stations. The usual practice is to appoint substitute members, in order to cover possible absences. In case a polling station cannot be formed on election day, the vote is postponed teo days. A Catalan government official has raised the possibility of tsuspending the publication of results, in case there are many polling stations failing to be formed. On paper substitute members should suffice to cover absences on election day, but the climate discourages participation


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Zinneke on February 08, 2021, 02:57:22 AM
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Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 08, 2021, 07:01:24 AM
Apparently Junts is now identifying in some election posters as "Democratic Socialists". Can't wait for Bernie Sanders to attend a Junts rally any time now :P

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Yes, the poster is real


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: kaoras on February 08, 2021, 07:10:58 AM
Well, is not Junts itself but Moviment de Esquerres which is technically a different party running on Junts lists. They used to run with ERC.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 08, 2021, 07:35:36 AM
Well, is not Junts itself but Moviment de Esquerres which is technically a different party running on Junts lists. They used to run with ERC.

Ah ok, that makes more sense then


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 08, 2021, 07:52:56 AM
Well, is not Junts itself but Movement de Esquerres which is technically a different party running on Junts lists. They used to run with ERC.

Moviment d'Esquerres is the merger of a couple of groups splitted from the PSC, people from the Catalanist faction that joined the independence movement in the first stages of the sovereigntist process.  Marina Geli is a former Health minister of the Generalitat (under Pasqual Maragall and José Montilla). She is ine of the founders alongside Ernest Maragall, the brother of Pasqual Maragall and a former cabinet member with Quim Torra (JxCAT) and José Montilla (PSC). Ernest Maragall is also a former PSC member and remains in ERC, while Geli and other MES folks joined the Puigdemont list. Maragall was the ERC candidate for Mayor of Barcelona in 2019; his list won a plurality, but Ada Colau retained the mayoralty thanks to a coalition agreement between BComú and PSC with the outside support of councilors Manuel Valls and Eva Parera (Barcelona pl Canvi-Cs) . Toni Comín, who appears in that poster,  is currently a JxCAT MEP and a former regional minister when he was in the ERC ranks. Pere Albó is a former PSC mayor of Sant Feliu de Guíxols (Girona province)


In my opinion the poster reveals that Junts is basically a catch-all-party, or a big tent nationalist movement (electoral machine rather than traditonal party). MES is only a small group within the broader Junts per Catalunya and it's delusional the idea that Puigdemont is embracing democratic socialism  or that MES is the main standard bearer of democratic socialism in Catalonia. There are plenty of neoliberals within Junts and even some alleged Trumpists like Joan Canadell


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: crals on February 08, 2021, 08:31:10 AM
Truly a bizarre party. Do they do any governing other than grandstanding about independence? Do Catalans care at this point?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 09, 2021, 01:33:00 AM
From now on the only polls available will be the GESOP daily trackings released by El Periòdic d'Andorra

Cs and PP are having serious troubles, while Vox is on the rise. The decline of the orange party was expected already, but the new revelations of the former PP treasurer Luis Bárcenas may lead the Spanish conservatives to a collapse in Catalonia. Vox could reap the benefits of the PP's structural corruption, with the additional help of the self-styled pro-indpendence "anti-fascists" (Vox is taking advantage of their sabotage attempts and attacks to play the role of victim in social networks). The outcome of the Catalan elections is promising to have serious repercussions for the Spanish Right and complicate Spanish politics to a greater extent. It's not clear that the socialists are going to benefit from this context

https://english.elpais.com/politics/catalonia_independence/2021-02-08/spains-far-right-gains-ground-ahead-of-catalan-regional-election.html

Quote
The upcoming election in Catalonia on February 14 is poised to change the political landscape of the northeastern region. At the last regional poll in 2017, the center-right party Ciudadanos received the highest number of votes, but did not win enough seats to form a government. Two pro-Catalan independence parties, Junts per Catalunya (Together for Catalonia) and the Catalan Republican Left (ERC), with the support of the anti-capitalist party CUP, instead joined forces to take office.

But four years on, the situation has changed dramatically. The most striking difference is that this year the far-right party Vox is set to enter the Catalan parliament for the first time. Vox is gaining in the polls by using the same strategy that made Ciudadanos the most-voted party in 2017 – taking a hardline stance against the pro-independence movement. Last Wednesday, on the news program Els Matins, Vox’s candidate for premier, Ignacio Garriga, threatened to close down TV3, Catalonia’s public television channel, “for being a means of manipulation.” In 2018, the then-leader of Ciudadanos, Albert Rivera, made the same threats. On Saturday, around 50 protesters demonstrated at a Vox event in the city of Vic, throwing rocks, eggs, beer cans and packets of flour at Garriga and Vox general secretary Javier Ortega Smith. The situation had echoes of a similar protest two years ago when Inés Arrimadas, now the national leader of Ciudadanos, was insulted and jeered. The story is the same, but the protagonists are different. Now it is Vox that is leading the campaign for the political right, while Ciudadanos is desperately searching for a way to stop their advance (...)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Zinneke on February 09, 2021, 05:29:01 AM
Truly a bizarre party. Do they do any governing other than grandstanding about independence? Do Catalans care at this point?

They all converge (hey, what a coincidence) on one point though : for them Spanish institutions are rotten and a tabula rasa is the only solution. I think its difficult for people to understand this from the outside.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: FrancoAgo on February 09, 2021, 05:40:39 AM
ERC 84,1%, CUP 81,8%, ECP 79,8%, PSC 65,5%, JxC 65,1%, C's 35,3%, PP 31,8%, Vox 21,9%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Skye on February 09, 2021, 05:47:14 AM
Hello friends. I've been a little busy with some stuff in real life. I just wanted to pop in for a moment to say I finally managed to do a project I've long wanted to: A Madrid precinct map. I know it has little to do with the current election (The Catalan regional election), but I thought you'd find it interesting.

Anyways, here are the precinct results for the November 2019 General Election in Madrid, presented by ideological blocs.

Blue: Right (PP+Cs+VOX), 52.2%
Red: Left (PSOE, UP, MP), 45.8%

Atlas colors, though I've painted the tied precincts in purple.

()
 
This is the small version, here's a link for the super big (11938 x 11208) version if you want to see it in more detail: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_cvlPwH2hKi79LyVHKlnqi2k0qunD9qN/view?usp=sharing


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: President Punxsutawney Phil on February 09, 2021, 06:07:07 AM
PSC 80,6%
ECP 68,7%
C's 67,9%
PP 66,7%
VOX 56,8%
ERC 55,2%
CUP 49,2%
JxC 49,2%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 09, 2021, 01:19:38 PM
GESOP/Andorra Market

PSC 22.6 (31/33)
ERC 20.6 (31/33)
Junts 20.6 (31/33)
VOX 7.1 (8/9)
ECP 7.0 (8/9)
CUP 6.7 (8/9)
Cs 6.5  (7/8)
PP 4.4 (4/5)
PDeCAT 1.1 (0)

https://sondeos.elperiodic.ad/primer-sondeo-elecciones-catalanas-14f.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 11, 2021, 02:58:56 AM
Pro-independence parties signed a document committing themselves not to arrange coalition deals with the PSC, following the tradition of cordon sanitaire for socialdemocrats inaugurated in Spanish politics by the former Cs leader Albert Rivera. The document is promoted by a group of former ANC (Catalan National Assembly)members to the parties in a surprise move. The signatories are Junts (JxCAT), ERC, CUP, PDeCAT and the non-parliamentary Primàries, stating there won't be any agreement to form government with Salvador Illa regardless the correlation of forces resulting from the elections. The document says this election is "an opportunity to achieve the necessary strength that allows to enforce the Catalan Republic"

 This deal seems aimed at preventing that ERC feels tempted to make deals with the socialists and En Comú Podem. ERC and PSC candidates have been ruling out that possibility during the campaign; Salvador Illa says that he would like to form a government with ECP, while Pere Aragonès says his priority is reaching agreements with ECP and the CUP. Furthermore, ERC leader Oriol Junqueras  has stated that ERC and PSC are "antagonistic". The attacks against the socialists have increased as of late , possibly motivated by the threat posed by the rise of JxcAT in recent polling. ERC and JxCAT compete against each other, in order to determine which party will lead the next regional government

Yesterday it was the second anniversary of the famous picture with the three leaders f the Spanish Right at Colón square in Madrid. This picture, in addition to the ERC's sabotage to the budget draft agreed between PSOE and UP, triggered the April 2019 elections. Colón was the Vox's launching pad (Cape Canaveral). Currently the far right is on the rise (despite the recent humiliation in the non-confidence motion), while the PP struggles with serious problems (the ghost of structural corruption) and Cs is on the brink to disappear. Meanwhile Albert Rivera tweets from a limb after one of the most terrible political gaffes in the present democratic period



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 11, 2021, 10:30:51 AM
GESOP/Andorra Market

PSC 23.0 (32/34)
ERC 20.8 (31/33)
Junts 18.8 (29/31)
Vox 7.5 (9/10)
ECP 6.9 (8/9)
Cs 6.7 (7/8)
CUP 6 4 (8/9)
PP 4.4 (4/5)
PDeCAT 3.0 (0/2)

Turnout 56/58


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Skye on February 11, 2021, 10:37:38 AM
GESOP/Andorra Market

PSC 23.0 (32/34)
ERC 20.8 (31/33)
Junts 18.8 (29/31)
Vox 7.5 (9/10)
ECP 6.9 (8/9)
Cs 6.7 (7/8)
CUP 6 4 (8/9)
PP 4.4 (4/5)
PDeCAT 3.0 (0/2)

Turnout 56/58

Well VOX placing 4th would make this election a complete dumpster fire.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 11, 2021, 04:29:01 PM
Watching the live debate in La Sexta. All the candidates are speaking in Spanish. "Everybody against Illa"

The CUP candidate Dolors Sabater has been replaced by Laia Estrada (leading candidate for Tarragona). Estrada called "fascist" the Vox candidate ignacio Garriga

The PP candidate Alejandro Fernández is not bad in debates.  He and the ECP candidate Jessica Albiach were the best n the TV3 debate held two days ago, according to some media reports

I've been watching the debate for a while and find all candidates terrible except Albiach. Surprisingly I find the PP candidate is a decent folk, considering that I don't share his ideas. Right now Illa is saying "it's enough". Garriga warns about the Islamic invasion shortly afterwards. Poor Catalans...


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: jaichind on February 11, 2021, 07:55:57 PM
Looks like there are a lot of polls being de facto released after the legal ban on polls.  If so what is the point of this law ?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 11, 2021, 08:11:15 PM
Looks like there are a lot of polls being de facto released after the legal ban on polls.  If so what is the point of this law ?

In the modern age? There really isn't a point, and parties have sometimes talked about repealing it but it isn't really worth it.

Back in the day it was meant to have people decide their vote without any opinion polling, but rather people choosing the party genuinely on their merits and avoiding tactical voting.

However, in recent times it has become a trend to either publish "The Andorran fruit shop that predicts the Catalan elections"; or alternatively to simply just publish polls in foreign media (El Periodic d'Andorra, or some Scottish nationalist publications)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: TheSaint250 on February 11, 2021, 08:52:22 PM
GESOP/Andorra Market

PSC 23.0 (32/34)
ERC 20.8 (31/33)
Junts 18.8 (29/31)
Vox 7.5 (9/10)
ECP 6.9 (8/9)
Cs 6.7 (7/8)
CUP 6 4 (8/9)
PP 4.4 (4/5)
PDeCAT 3.0 (0/2)

Turnout 56/58

Vox at fourth--would not have expected that


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 11, 2021, 09:48:02 PM

Vox at fourth--would not have expected that

It's apparently a last minute surge that resembles the last Andalusian election. Possible causes: former Cs voters with a stronger Spanish identity* are switching en masse to Vox, the impact of the PP corruption scandals prevent transfers from Cs to PP. Some pro-independence "antifa" groups (allegedly linked ti the CUP) have tried to sabotage Vox rallies throwing stones and such. These actions have helped to boost the Vox campaign; Cs candidate condemned the attackers during the last night debate reminding his party has suffered similar Vandal actions, as it's is the pioneering force in the fight against separatism. The Cs downfall is apparently unstoppable

*The percentage of Catalans identifying only as Spaniards is about 6%, while the percentage saying they feel more Spaniard than Catalan is also small. The point is that Vox is seemingly catching all those voters primarily driven by identity feelings opposed to those of the Catalan separatists

The dumpster fires in Barcelona after the Supreme Court rule on the jailed Catalan politicians, days before the November 2019 elections, contributed to boost Vox in many parts of Spain.  Vandalism broadcast live in TV can be impressive


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 12, 2021, 03:54:34 AM
Feedback/The National

Junts 20.3 (32/35)
PSC 20.3 (29/30)
ERC 17.8 (27/28)
Cs 10.3 (13/14)
ECP 8.6 (10/12)
CUP 7.1 (9)
VOX 5.1 (5/6)
PP 4.1 (3/5)
PDeCAT 2.2 (0)

GESOP/Andorra Market (3)

PSC 23.1 (32/34)
ERC 20.8 (311/33)
Junts 18.8 (28/30)
Vox 7.0 (8/9)
ECP 7.0 (8/9)
Cs 7.0 (8/9)
CUP 6.1 (8/9)
PP 4.4 (4/5)
PDeCAT 3.4 (0/3)

Three questions:

1) Which party comes first: PSC, ERC or Junts

2) Which party leads the pro-independence camp (and presumably the next Catalan government)

3) Which party leads the Spanish Right bloc: the effect of a Vox result like the one predicted by GESOP could be devastating for Casado and Arrimadas


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 12, 2021, 09:58:40 AM
Curiously, the other poll by GESOP, published in Andorra, has Junts crashing at 18.8%.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 12, 2021, 10:09:25 AM
Curiously, the other poll by GESOP, published in Andorra, has Junts crashing at 18.8%.

According to GESOP, the PDeCAT would be gaining some ground at the expense of Junts. It makes a big difference getting 2% or 3% of the vote, given that the last figure is the threshold to win seats in parliament


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 12, 2021, 11:28:59 AM
Candidates clash in acrimonious debate

https://english.elpais.com/politics/catalonia_independence/2021-02-12/candidates-clash-in-acrimonious-debate-ahead-of-catalan-election.html

Quote
 Candidates for the Catalan regional election sparred Thursday night at the last televised debate before voters go to the polls on Sunday. Former Health Minister Salvador Illa was the target of most of the attacks, reflecting that surveys show a tie between his Catalan Socialist Party (PSC) and separatist groups.

The nine contenders exchanged insults ranging from “fascist” to “terrorist” and the debate at times descended into a shouting match, with moderator Ana Pastor struggling to contain the speakers.

The election campaign in Spain’s northeastern region, where nearly six million people are eligible to vote, has been marked by the coronavirus pandemic. Applications for mail-in ballots have tripled since the previous election in 2017, according to the postal service. And a quarter of the 82,251 citizens who were randomly selected to man the voting stations have requested to be excused from their duty, reflecting widespread fear about contracting the virus (...)

Since then, all the other contenders have treated Illa as the candidate to beat, and this strategy was on clear display at the two-hour debate on Thursday, organized by the private television station La Sexta. Illa was the target of numerous verbal attacks from the other candidates to head the region, which is currently governed by a separatist coalition of the Catalan Republican Left (ERC) and Together for Catalonia (Junts).

I watched it last night and it was a lamentable spectacle.  The only candidate with whom I got a good impression was Jéssica Albiach, because she was the only one who didn't go to the bottom of the mud pit. Albiach regretted that ERC is tied to Junts andxdeened a farce the document that commit pro-independence parties to reject deals with the PSC; " you arecgoing to make Joan Canadell president one day". Canadell is the alleged Trumpist who chairs the Chamber of Commerce and says that people coming from other regions are "colonists". Albiach is from Valencia, so probably she's not a "foreigner" for a CUP pancatalanist

Salvador Illa was target of many attacks and was heavily criticized because he refused to take a PCR test arguing that he's following the protocols of the Health ministry. Given that hechas no symptoms and had no recent contact with infected persons, Illa deems that taking the rest is "overacting" and a "privilege".  The health ministry denied that he is vaccinated, because Pablo Casado suggested that was the reason he refused to take the test in the previous debate in TV3.  Someone said that Illa should have wear a mask during the debate.  Terrible

Quote
The attacks began straight away when Laura Borràs (Junts), Carlos Carrizosa (Citizens) and Alejandro Fernández (PP) all demanded that Illa wear a facemask due to the fact that he refused to take a coronavirus test ahead of an earlier debate on regional Catalan television channel TV3. Since then, both right-wing and pro-independence politicians have been circulating unfounded claims that Illa may have cheated his way into early Covid-19 vaccination and that this would explain his refusal to be tested. The Health Ministry has refuted this claim.

The former minister hit back: “Anything goes against Illa, even defamation. Of course I haven’t been vaccinated. I hope you will apologize to Catalans. This is the kind of thing I want to change: the confrontation, the lies.”
 

The Vox candidate told many lies. He made the usual claims linking immigration and crime and said there is an Islamic invasion going on on Catalonia. He attacked separatists, too

Quote
Meanwhile, Ignacio Garriga of Vox promised to end “the ideological ravings” of the independence parties, accusing them of cutting back on public healthcare spending. “If doctors in Catalonia did not have facemasks, it’s because you’ve been robbing Catalans for decades and using the money to fund your parties and Puigdemont’s mansion,” he said.  

That's the level of Catalan politics nowadays



  


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 12, 2021, 12:46:25 PM
Curiously, the other poll by GESOP, published in Andorra, has Junts crashing at 18.8%.

According to GESOP, the PDeCAT would be gaining some ground at the expense of Junts. It makes a big difference getting 2% or 3% of the vote, given that the last figure is the threshold to win seats in parliament
Is PDeCAT more soft on Independence or not? I see their are clearly a center-right party, not the mess Junts seems to be, ideologically, at least.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 12, 2021, 01:37:23 PM
Curiously, the other poll by GESOP, published in Andorra, has Junts crashing at 18.8%.

According to GESOP, the PDeCAT would be gaining some ground at the expense of Junts. It makes a big difference getting 2% or 3% of the vote, given that the last figure is the threshold to win seats in parliament
Is PDeCAT more soft on Independence or not? I see their are clearly a center-right party, not the mess Junts seems to be, ideologically, at least.

The PDeCAT is openly pro-independence, but rejects unilateralism and deals with the far-left CUP.  Candidate Angels Chacón also signed the document committing her party not to make deals with the PSC. The party advocates 'business friendly' policies, such as low taxes and support to entrepeneurs, styling as a group of competent people with experience in government. As the legal heir of CDC the party tries to appeal the traditional CiU voters, whom used to be people of order. Junts is indeed a mess, as it's a party with a majority of former CDC members but incorporates many other groups with different ideologies. Junts styles itself as "progressive" to differentiate from the "reactionary" Spanish nationalists and its candidate Laura Borràs claims to be more leftist than Salvador Illa. But that's likely a delusion and the sudden conversion of all the ex-CDC to progressivism is dubious for some. One of the main goals of Junts is to prevent that ERC becomes the hegemonic force of Catalan nationalism. Given that a majority of voters is self-placing on the centre-left,  Junts tries to be identified as such. In order to he perceived as progressive, Junts withdrew the proosal to abolish the inheritance tax and diminished the protagonism of figures like Joan Canadell, who is the number three behind Puigdemont and Borràs


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 12, 2021, 01:51:02 PM
Curiously, the other poll by GESOP, published in Andorra, has Junts crashing at 18.8%.

According to GESOP, the PDeCAT would be gaining some ground at the expense of Junts. It makes a big difference getting 2% or 3% of the vote, given that the last figure is the threshold to win seats in parliament
Is PDeCAT more soft on Independence or not? I see their are clearly a center-right party, not the mess Junts seems to be, ideologically, at least.

The PDeCAT is openly pro-independence, but rejects unilateralism and deals with the far-left CUP.  Candidate Angels Chacón also signed the document committing her party not to make deals with the PSC. The party advocates 'business friendly' policies, such as low taxes and support to entrepeneurs, styling as a group of competent people with experience in government. As the legal heir of CDC the party tries to appeal the traditional CiU voters, whom used to be people of order. Junts is indeed a mess, as it's a party with a majority of former CDC members but incorporates many other groups with different ideologies. Junts styles itself as "progressive" to differentiate from the "reactionary" Spanish nationalists and its candidate Laura Borràs claims to be more leftist than Salvador Illa. But that's likely a delusion and the sudden conversion of all the ex-CDC to progressivism is dubious for some. One of the main goals of Junts is to prevent that ERC becomes the hegemonic force of Catalan nationalism. Given that a majority of voters is self-placing on the centre-left,  Junts tries to be identified as such. In order to he perceived as progressive, Junts withdrew the proosal to abolish the inheritance tax and diminished the protagonism of figures like Joan Canadell, who is the number three behind Puigdemont and Borràs
Interesting. And that "document" committing parties to not make deals with PSC, will parties follow it or is it just a BS? Because it seems like a it.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 12, 2021, 02:34:47 PM
Interesting. And that "document" committing parties to not make deals with PSC, will parties follow it or is it just a BS? Because it seems like a it.

Some people is in your opinion,  adding that document sealed the PSC victory next Sunday.  We'll see if Illa succeeds and how long it lasts the pact against him. The PSC is arguing that deal is the "Colón square picture" of the Catalan nationalists


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Oryxslayer on February 12, 2021, 05:11:15 PM
Interesting. And that "document" committing parties to not make deals with PSC, will parties follow it or is it just a BS? Because it seems like a it.

Some people is in your opinion,  adding that document sealed the PSC victory next Sunday.  We'll see if Illa succeeds and how long it lasts the pact against him. The PSC is arguing that deal is the "Colón square picture" of the Catalan nationalists

There's also the implicit assumption baked into that deal that the nationalists will once again get a majority of seats, and 2021 will just be 2017 but with the C's swapped for PSC. If they don't, which admittedly is unlikely but not the strangest thing possible, there would definitely be a push of some kind to avoid a Madrid/Israel situation where no government can be formed. Ignoring everything else PSC and VOX will never work together, so the nationalists failing to get a majority but standing by their pact basically ensures round 2 in a few months.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 12, 2021, 06:18:37 PM
Interesting. And that "document" committing parties to not make deals with PSC, will parties follow it or is it just a BS? Because it seems like a it.

Some people is in your opinion,  adding that document sealed the PSC victory next Sunday.  We'll see if Illa succeeds and how long it lasts the pact against him. The PSC is arguing that deal is the "Colón square picture" of the Catalan nationalists

There's also the implicit assumption baked into that deal that the nationalists will once again get a majority of seats, and 2021 will just be 2017 but with the C's swapped for PSC. If they don't, which admittedly is unlikely but not the strangest thing possible, there would definitely be a push of some kind to avoid a Madrid/Israel situation where no government can be formed. Ignoring everything else PSC and VOX will never work together, so the nationalists failing to get a majority but standing by their pact basically ensures round 2 in a few months.

A nationalist majority is practically inevitable when those parties combined get more than 45% of the vote, due to the overrepresentation of the rest of provinces with regards Barcelona. Turnout is expected to decrease by 20% or more and, depending on which groups of voters and geographical areas are the most affected, pto-independence parties could reach the 50% mark. According to pollsters Junts, CUP and VOX voters are the most motivated and these parties could get extraordinary results in case turnout falls below 60%. The PSC has chances of winning, but it will get a result below the 25% mark reached by Cs in 2017. The VOX surge makes even more impossible any coalition excluding nationalist parties. ERC has been always the key element in government formation. The goal of the people that promoted the anti-PSC deal is to ensure that ERC is tied permanently to Junts and perpetuate the identity bloc dynamics


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 12, 2021, 08:21:29 PM
Ok, TV3 is just... well, weird:


Quote
Catalonia: TV3's results prediction hamster predicts victory for Junts and a pact with CUP

The hamster has called it. ;)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 12, 2021, 09:47:33 PM
Ok, TV3 is just... well, weird:

Quote
Catalonia: TV3's results prediction hamster predicts victory for Junts and a pact with CUP

The hamster has called it. ;)

The hamster has developed an acute political instinct


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 13, 2021, 03:17:09 PM
Feedback/The National

Junts 20.7 (33/34)
PSC 20.0 (28/29)
ERC 18.8 (28/29)
Cs 9 3 (12/13)
ECP 8.5 (11)
CUP 5.6 (7/8)
VOX 5.4 (5/6)
PP 4.7 (5)
PDeCAT 2.8 (0/2)

GESOP/Andorra Market (4)

PSC 22.9 (31/33)
ERC 20.3 (31/33)
Junts 18.8 (28/30)
Cs 7.5 (8/9)
ECP 6.9 (8/9)
CUP 6.9 (8/9)
VOX 6.3 (7/8)
PP 5 5 (6/7)
PDeCAT 3.0 (0/2)


TV3 hamster: JUNTS


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 14, 2021, 07:19:46 AM
Well, it's election day in Catalonia.

Polling stations started opening at 9am, but only at around 11am did all polling station were ready to receive voters.

Election results can be followed here: https://resultats.parlament2021.cat/resultados/0/catalunya

At 1pm, around 22.8% of voters had already cast a ballot, a drop of almost 12% compared with 2017.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: jaichind on February 14, 2021, 07:29:39 AM
I assume exit polls will come out 8PM ?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 14, 2021, 08:08:55 AM
I assume exit polls will come out 8PM ?
I don't think in Spain they do exit polls. I think they present "predictions" based on polls in the days before polling day. But, not 100% sure.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: jaichind on February 14, 2021, 08:11:31 AM
I assume exit polls will come out 8PM ?
I don't think in Spain they do exit polls. I think they present "predictions" based on polls in the days before polling day. But, not 100% sure.

Historically I believe Spain does have exit polls although some of them are, as you say, predictions based on last minute polling.  I was asking mostly in the context of the rules this year seems to be the last your of voting is reserved for those under quarantine which I imagine could delay or even cancel exit polls. 


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 14, 2021, 08:46:41 AM

Historically I believe Spain does have exit polls although some of them are, as you say, predictions based on last minute polling.  I was asking mostly in the context of the rules this year seems to be the last your of voting is reserved for those under quarantine which I imagine could delay or even cancel exit polls. 

Like you say, Spain did indeed use to have "proper" exit polling. However, after it failed miserably twice in a row in 2015 and 2016; Spanish news media decided to drop traditional exit polling.

Here is the 2016 exit poll (https://www.lavanguardia.com/files/og_thumbnail/uploads/2016/06/27/5fa2d6954a43b.jpeg), compared to the real 2016 results (https://static1.abc.es/media/elecciones/2019/04/28/resultados-generales-anteriores--620x349-kdAH--620x349@abc.jpg) to see just how miserably it failed

Instead, we started getting just good old regular telephone polls that were performed outside the legal period and published on election night. Though tbh I don't think they add much compared to the Andorra or Scotland based polls and are susceptible to the exact kinds of mistakes that regular polling can have.



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on February 14, 2021, 09:14:23 AM
What does our Spanish posters' gut feeling say today, on election day?

Also, at which hour do polling stations close?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 14, 2021, 10:44:00 AM
Allowing voters in quarantine to vote in person in the last hour of voting is just insane, IMO. Why didn't they impose vote by mail for these voters? It's allowed in Spain.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 14, 2021, 11:00:11 AM
Allowing voters in quarantine to vote in person in the last hour of voting is just insane, IMO. Why didn't they impose vote by mail for these voters? It's allowed in Spain.

Worth noting that in Spain vote by mail still requires you to either:

a) Physically go to the post office to deliver your ballot
b) Give the ballot in person to the mail delivery man when he gets to your house

So really you are only moving the problem. Spain's "vote by mail" system works less like what Americans understand by vote by mail and more like a glorified version of early voting.

Worth noting that during the Galician/Basque elections people under quarantine were not allowed to vote period, which was the way to go this time imo; but I guess it was just too many people and courts would not have accepted de facto disenfranchising so many people

Fun fact #1: While you can request the necessary documents to vote by mail online, you are required to have an electronic ID or other equivalent forms of documentation. I am not sure how many people actually have them but I think that a large amount of people certainly don't (not to mention old people who are technologically illiterate)

Fun fact #2: Before COVID times you would need to visit the post office a whopping 3 times to vote by mail! Once to request voting by mail, a second time to take your ballots and documents and a final time to actually vote.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Flyersfan232 on February 14, 2021, 11:01:47 AM
what are the various end game to catalan quest for freedom?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 14, 2021, 11:04:51 AM
What does our Spanish posters' gut feeling say today, on election day?

Also, at which hour do polling stations close?

Polling stations will close at 20:00 local time, but results are expected to take longer to come in than usual. Still Spain tends to count ballots very fast so by midnight we should have upwards of 99% of the vote counted if all things go to plan.

My gut feeling (though I've had this the entire campaign) is that PSC will underperform and Junts will overperform but that's not really based on anything and I have not paid too much attention.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 14, 2021, 11:06:30 AM
Allowing voters in quarantine to vote in person in the last hour of voting is just insane, IMO. Why didn't they impose vote by mail for these voters? It's allowed in Spain.

Worth noting that in Spain vote by mail still requires you to either:

a) Physically go to the post office to deliver your ballot
b) Give the ballot in person to the mail delivery man when he gets to your house

So really you are only moving the problem. Spain's "vote by mail" system works less like what Americans understand by vote by mail and more like a glorified version of early voting.

Worth noting that during the Galician/Basque elections people under quarantine were not allowed to vote period, which was the way to go this time imo; but I guess it was just too many people and courts would not have accepted de facto disenfranchising so many people

Fun fact #1: While you can request the necessary documents to vote by mail online, you are required to have an electronic ID or other equivalent forms of documentation. I am not sure how many people actually have them but I think that a large amount of people certainly don't (not to mention old people who are technologically illiterate)

Fun fact #2: Before COVID times you would need to visit the post office a whopping 3 times to vote by mail! Once to request voting by mail, a second time to take your ballots and documents and a final time to actually vote.
Ohhh... I see. I thought mail voting in Spain was American like. And I thought that the "quarantine" vote in Portugal, last January, was weird and complicated, forget about that, it wasn't that bad now. There was no change of the laws in order to ease voting, then?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 14, 2021, 11:11:58 AM
Allowing voters in quarantine to vote in person in the last hour of voting is just insane, IMO. Why didn't they impose vote by mail for these voters? It's allowed in Spain.

Worth noting that in Spain vote by mail still requires you to either:

a) Physically go to the post office to deliver your ballot
b) Give the ballot in person to the mail delivery man when he gets to your house

So really you are only moving the problem. Spain's "vote by mail" system works less like what Americans understand by vote by mail and more like a glorified version of early voting.

Worth noting that during the Galician/Basque elections people under quarantine were not allowed to vote period, which was the way to go this time imo; but I guess it was just too many people and courts would not have accepted de facto disenfranchising so many people

Fun fact #1: While you can request the necessary documents to vote by mail online, you are required to have an electronic ID or other equivalent forms of documentation. I am not sure how many people actually have them but I think that a large amount of people certainly don't (not to mention old people who are technologically illiterate)

Fun fact #2: Before COVID times you would need to visit the post office a whopping 3 times to vote by mail! Once to request voting by mail, a second time to take your ballots and documents and a final time to actually vote.
Ohhh... I see. I thought mail voting in Spain was American like. And I thought that the "quarantine" vote in Portugal, last January, was weird and complicated, forget about that, it wasn't that bad now. There was no change of the laws in order to ease voting, then?

Compared to the Basque/Galician elections last summer yeah there have been no changes whatsoever.

Compared to pre-COVID times the main differences seem to be

a) You don't need to physically go to a post office to request to vote by mail; you can instead do that online
b) You no longer need to physically sign a document to verify that you received your ballots
c) Instead of physically going to the post office to deliver your ballot, you can just give it to the mailman when he gives you your ballots.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 14, 2021, 11:27:08 AM
Allowing voters in quarantine to vote in person in the last hour of voting is just insane, IMO. Why didn't they impose vote by mail for these voters? It's allowed in Spain.

Worth noting that in Spain vote by mail still requires you to either:

a) Physically go to the post office to deliver your ballot
b) Give the ballot in person to the mail delivery man when he gets to your house

So really you are only moving the problem. Spain's "vote by mail" system works less like what Americans understand by vote by mail and more like a glorified version of early voting.

Worth noting that during the Galician/Basque elections people under quarantine were not allowed to vote period, which was the way to go this time imo; but I guess it was just too many people and courts would not have accepted de facto disenfranchising so many people

Fun fact #1: While you can request the necessary documents to vote by mail online, you are required to have an electronic ID or other equivalent forms of documentation. I am not sure how many people actually have them but I think that a large amount of people certainly don't (not to mention old people who are technologically illiterate)

Fun fact #2: Before COVID times you would need to visit the post office a whopping 3 times to vote by mail! Once to request voting by mail, a second time to take your ballots and documents and a final time to actually vote.
Ohhh... I see. I thought mail voting in Spain was American like. And I thought that the "quarantine" vote in Portugal, last January, was weird and complicated, forget about that, it wasn't that bad now. There was no change of the laws in order to ease voting, then?

Compared to the Basque/Galician elections last summer yeah there have been no changes whatsoever.

Compared to pre-COVID times the main differences seem to be

a) You don't need to physically go to a post office to request to vote by mail; you can instead do that online
b) You no longer need to physically sign a document to verify that you received your ballots
c) Instead of physically going to the post office to deliver your ballot, you can just give it to the mailman when he gives you your ballots.
Hmm... you cannot even put the ballot in the mail box? It has to be delivered personally to the mailman, right?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 14, 2021, 11:41:33 AM

Hmm... you cannot even put the ballot in the mail box? It has to be delivered personally to the mailman, right?

Yeah, in order to verify your identity you need to give the ballot to the mailman; whether when he gets to your house, or by you physically going to the post office.

You can't just simply put a ballot in the mail box.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 14, 2021, 12:14:43 PM
Turnout at 6pm seems around 45.7%, minus 22% compared with 2017.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 14, 2021, 12:20:00 PM
Why not? 8)


Quote
Catalonia: voter arrives at the electoral college disguised as Bert from Sesame Street carrying a sign that says "no politician will protect you, put on an PPE".


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 14, 2021, 01:18:13 PM
Right now is the intended turn for Covid infected people to vote. Therefore if you are curious, this is how polling stations look right now

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 14, 2021, 01:22:52 PM
I'm watching the TVE live broadcast and they are saying that basically no one is showing up to vote after 7pm, the time for people infected/in quarantine.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on February 14, 2021, 01:43:08 PM
What does our Spanish posters' gut feeling say today, on election day?

Also, at which hour do polling stations close?

Polling stations will close at 20:00 local time, but results are expected to take longer to come in than usual. Still Spain tends to count ballots very fast so by midnight we should have upwards of 99% of the vote counted if all things go to plan.

My gut feeling (though I've had this the entire campaign) is that PSC will underperform and Junts will overperform but that's not really based on anything and I have not paid too much attention.

Looking forward to an eventful evening, then. The mail votes are counted together with the regular votes, I suppose?

And I hope your gut feeling is wrong (actually given what I know about your politics you should hope it is wrong as well - are you a pessimist now?).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 14, 2021, 01:50:24 PM
What does our Spanish posters' gut feeling say today, on election day?

Also, at which hour do polling stations close?

Polling stations will close at 20:00 local time, but results are expected to take longer to come in than usual. Still Spain tends to count ballots very fast so by midnight we should have upwards of 99% of the vote counted if all things go to plan.

My gut feeling (though I've had this the entire campaign) is that PSC will underperform and Junts will overperform but that's not really based on anything and I have not paid too much attention.

Looking forward to an eventful evening, then. The mail votes are counted together with the regular votes, I suppose?

And I hope your gut feeling is wrong (actually given what I know about your politics you should hope it is wrong as well - are you a pessimist now?).

I have always been a pessimist :P Hoping I am proven wrong though! Here is my prediction (which I made like a week ago and haven't bothered to update):

Junts: 34
ERC: 32
PSC: 26
Cs: 15
Comuns: 9
CUP: 7
Vox: 7
PP: 5
PDECat: 0

I will say that I am extremely likely to get Cs wrong, it seems to me that they've just gone downhill instead of up like I predicted when I did my prediction at the start of the campaign

And yeah mail votes are counted along the regular votes. Mail votes issued abroad are counted 48 hours later if I am not mistaken, but they won't change more than 1 seat, maybe 2 at most.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Oryxslayer on February 14, 2021, 01:53:29 PM
Generalitat results page: https://resultados.parlament2021.cat/resultados/resumen/AUCI

El pais: https://resultados.elpais.com/elecciones/cataluna.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: jaichind on February 14, 2021, 01:56:17 PM
Which parties would be hurt by lower turnout?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 14, 2021, 02:02:00 PM
TVE prediction:

36-38 ERC
34-36 PSC
30-33 Junts
       7 CUP
    6-7 Podem
    6-7 Vox
    6-7 C's
    4-5 PP
    0-2 PDeCat


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: jaichind on February 14, 2021, 02:02:19 PM
Exit poll
Socialists 35
Junts 30-33
Esquerra 36-38
VOX 6-7


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 14, 2021, 02:03:39 PM
Other prediction:



Too early to call.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: jaichind on February 14, 2021, 02:04:55 PM
One things seems to be for sure: C underperformed.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 14, 2021, 02:05:51 PM
TV3-GAD3 poll, popular vote:

PSC: 24.5%
ERC: 24.3%
Junts: 20.5%
Comuns: 6%
Vox 5.9%
CUP: 5.4%
Cs 5.3%
PP 4.6%
PDeCat: 2.5%

Secessionists >50% for the first time ever


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Oryxslayer on February 14, 2021, 02:05:58 PM
RTV "Exit" (Late) Poll:

()


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Oryxslayer on February 14, 2021, 02:08:51 PM
So yeah two takeaway's if the exits are correct:

- Catalan Nationalists >50%. Potential for a Junts+ERC govt on their own.

- The Ball is in truly ERC's court on what govt gets formed. Pre-election, it was a case of a Junts led govt or a PSC led left govt.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: kaoras on February 14, 2021, 02:10:18 PM
I absolutely refuse to believe that ERC is capable of winning a real election (european doesn't count)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 14, 2021, 02:10:28 PM
First polling place reporting, some random place in Tarragona province (almost certainly super rural):

JxCat: 42.86%
ERC: 28.57%
PSC: 7.14%
CUP: 7.14%
Primaries: 7.14%
Vox: 3.57%


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: jaichind on February 14, 2021, 02:13:04 PM
The seats are still allocated by D'Hondt method over 4 separate districts right ?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 14, 2021, 02:13:33 PM
Another one: (this with Junts ahead)



48.73% Independentists
48.15% Non-Independentists


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: jaichind on February 14, 2021, 02:15:42 PM
I guess the battle between JxCat, ERC and PSC activated their voters to come out and lower turnout are about the rest not turning out as much.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Lumine on February 14, 2021, 02:17:55 PM
RIP C's. It was fun while it lasted.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: kaoras on February 14, 2021, 02:19:02 PM
The seats are still allocated by D'Hondt method over 4 separate districts right ?

Yes


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 14, 2021, 02:22:48 PM
Pundits are saying, on TVE, that if ERC wins, Junts is out of government and ERC will make a deal with Cómun and the outside support of PSC. If Junts wins, a government is impossible. New elections? Who knows at this point.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 14, 2021, 02:23:47 PM
Pundits are saying, on TVE, that if ERC wins, Junts is out of government and ERC will make a deal with Cómun and the outside support of PSC. If Junts wins, a government is impossible. New elections? Who knows at this point.

IMO ERC and Junts will just do a deal one way or the other. Then if need be CUP will provide outside support.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 14, 2021, 02:24:46 PM
Anyways, finally we have votes from all provinces.

0.01% of the vote in

JxCat 60
ERC 32
CUP 16
PDECat 12
PSC 8
ECP 3
PP 2
Vox 1

Needless to say, this won't last and secessionist areas count first :P


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Oryxslayer on February 14, 2021, 02:26:51 PM
()

Showed for a moment, so I snapped a pic. The parties voter base this year broken down by age cohort, according to the exit poll. I don't think theres anything too surprising here.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: jaichind on February 14, 2021, 02:28:44 PM
Pundits are saying, on TVE, that if ERC wins, Junts is out of government and ERC will make a deal with Cómun and the outside support of PSC. If Junts wins, a government is impossible. New elections? Who knows at this point.

What if PSC comes in first ?  I thought that Junts and ERC were going to make a deal no matter what and the election is more about which of the two is top dog.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 14, 2021, 02:28:53 PM
Pundits are saying, on TVE, that if ERC wins, Junts is out of government and ERC will make a deal with Cómun and the outside support of PSC. If Junts wins, a government is impossible. New elections? Who knows at this point.

IMO ERC and Junts will just do a deal one way or the other. Then if need be CUP will provide outside support.
Maybe, everything is open. I like the guy, on TVE, who said he's an independentist abstainer, and that it doesn't matter if either Junts or ERC win, there're both liars.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Oryxslayer on February 14, 2021, 02:48:10 PM
Pundits are saying, on TVE, that if ERC wins, Junts is out of government and ERC will make a deal with Cómun and the outside support of PSC. If Junts wins, a government is impossible. New elections? Who knows at this point.

IMO ERC and Junts will just do a deal one way or the other. Then if need be CUP will provide outside support.
Maybe, everything is open. I like the guy, on TVE, who said he's an independentist abstainer, and that it doesn't matter if either Junts or ERC win, there're both liars.

I mean we know that the ERC's base is my more in favor of persuing a legal form of independence, rather than the clean break Junts and Pudigmont pinned themselves to these past few years. It's just that they are duty bound to follow them since Junts leads the nationalist block. If ERC tops the polls, then maybe they'll look for an alternative separate from Junts ideal.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 14, 2021, 02:54:14 PM
It's still very, very early, but, IMO, it seems that Junts is not performing very well. ERC seems to be on the verge of surpassing them, with less than 2% counted and PSC continues creeping up.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Zinneke on February 14, 2021, 02:58:55 PM
Wonderful strategy from the 155 hardliners. Really worked wonders! 15 seats overall? lmfao


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 14, 2021, 03:01:21 PM
Junts just fell to 3rd place in terms of seats. ERC and PSC surpasses them.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 14, 2021, 03:03:40 PM
Wonderful strategy from the 155 hardliners. Really worked wonders! 15 seats overall? lmfao

In fairness to the "trifachito", that is pretty much PP's historical base from back in the day; 15 seats or so were the norm for them.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Oryxslayer on February 14, 2021, 03:04:30 PM
It's still very, very early, but, IMO, it seems that Junts is not performing very well. ERC seems to be on the verge of surpassing them, with less than 2% counted and PSC continues creeping up.

Which of course is notable cause the ERC does comparatively better in Tarragona and Barcelona when compared to the rurals, and the rurals count faster. Maybe they will pass Junts. There is the possibility in the cards for an electoral fluke, where Junts wins Lledia and Girona and the PSC wins Barcelona and Tarragona, but the ERC wins cause it came in second in all 4. Its very unlikely of course.

Wonderful strategy from the 155 hardliners. Really worked wonders! 15 seats overall? lmfao

The goal for those guys is Spain and Spanish nationalism, not Catalonia. Catalonia is a triagable scapegoat.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: jaichind on February 14, 2021, 03:07:10 PM
3 way tie for first in terms of seats.  How exciting.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Oryxslayer on February 14, 2021, 03:15:05 PM
()

Map of what's reporting right now. Obviously not everything colored in is 100% reporting, or we will be at >70% counted because of Barcelona and her suburbs.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 14, 2021, 03:20:14 PM
Map of what's reporting right now. Obviously not everything colored in is 100% reporting, or we will be at >70% counted because of Barcelona and her suburbs.
Yes, but it seems that the predictions overestimated the support for the pro-independent parties. The vote counted later normally is more pro-unionist and there's still a huge amount yet to count.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Oryxslayer on February 14, 2021, 03:23:41 PM
Just checked on Barcelona (city) and Junts+PDeCAT is down 4% there compared to JxC, more than in rural areas. It's early, but I wonder if at the end of the day we will see that oh so common trend (yes US but its across the west) where the ERC gains from the nationalist voter pool in Urban areas compared to Junts in Rurals.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Skye on February 14, 2021, 03:26:12 PM
21% in and the PSC is almost at 25% of the vote, much like how C's won back in 2017.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 14, 2021, 03:31:48 PM
21% in and the PSC is almost at 25% of the vote, much like how C's won back in 2017.
With the almost same counted in 2017, C's was at 34 seats, Junts also at 34 and ERC at 32. It ended C's 36, Junts 34 and ERC 32.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: jaichind on February 14, 2021, 03:41:10 PM
So most likely no two parties can form a majority.  Plenty room for all sorts of post-election maneuvers.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 14, 2021, 03:42:12 PM
This result in the Spanish right camp is the consequence of:

a) The incompetence of the Rajoy government handling the crisis in Catalonia, which had a tragic conclusion in October 2017

b) That picture at Colón Square in Madrid, which consecrated two antagonistic blocs in Spain and whitewashed Vox. The Cape Canaveral of Vox and the tomb of Cs (Albert Rivera had the chance of approaching Pedro Sánchez after the April 2019 elections; it would have been anotherstory)

C) PP's structural corruption

The Spanish centre-right (excluding Vox) needs a refoundation


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Oryxslayer on February 14, 2021, 03:42:57 PM
Oh and I know we are talking about PSC/ERC/Junts, but the other story is that VOX is right now at 8%. Yes they, and the right overall, has a ceiling and PP+C's+VOX is basically at it, but does anyone know if that percentage goes up or down? More non-Catalan Nationalist votes later on, but they are from urban areas that are not equivalent to Madrid.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Skye on February 14, 2021, 04:09:51 PM
Oh and I know we are talking about PSC/ERC/Junts, but the other story is that VOX is right now at 8%. Yes they, and the right overall, has a ceiling and PP+C's+VOX is basically at it, but does anyone know if that percentage goes up or down? More non-Catalan Nationalist votes later on, but they are from urban areas that are not equivalent to Madrid.

I've been paying attention to both VOX and the PSC's % for the past few updates and they seem to be losing a bit of ground. With 71% in, the PSC is now at 23.8% of the vote with 33 seats while VOX is at 7.8% but still with 11 seats. The PDeCAT was fighting for a seat in Lleida, but they're at 4.7% of the vote (and falling with each update) while VOX is taking that last seat with 5.3% of the vote.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: jaichind on February 14, 2021, 04:18:02 PM
Looks like the pro-independence vote will exceed 50% but seat wise the result were more lukewarm.  I guess to many votes got wasted on PDeCAT.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Oryxslayer on February 14, 2021, 04:41:32 PM
()

#TrendsAreGlobal



/s


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Skye on February 14, 2021, 04:44:58 PM
C's at 5.6% with 92% in.


Their poll numbers were at double digits as late as two weeks ago.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 14, 2021, 04:46:26 PM
The PSC is back, but it's a different party.

Back in 1999 and 2003 elections, when the PSC was the leading party in popular vote under Pasqual Maragall (CiU won more seats due to malapportionment), 30% of its base had a predominantly Catalan identity ("more Catalan than Spaniard")

The 2021 PSC under Salvador Illa has lost 2/3 of the catalanist base: only 10% identify as "more Catalan than Spaniard".

The catalanist middle-class has turned to sovereigntism since 2010


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Alcibiades on February 14, 2021, 04:54:13 PM
The PSC is back, but it's a different party.

Back in 1999 and 2003 elections, when the PSC was the leading party in popular vote under Pasqual Maragall (CiU won more seats due to malapportionment), 30% of its base had a predominantly Catalan identity ("more Catalan than Spaniard")

The 2021 PSC under Salvador Illa has lost 2/3 of the catalanist base: only 10% identify as "more Catalan than Spaniard".

The catalanist middle-class has turned to sovereigntism since 2010

To what extent have the PSC taken most of the C’s voters from the last election? The map would suggest that this is basically what has happened (although the ERC has also been able to gain some coastal areas which voted C’s last time).


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Oryxslayer on February 14, 2021, 04:57:46 PM
The PSC is back, but it's a different party.

Back in 1999 and 2003 elections, when the PSC was the leading party in popular vote under Pasqual Maragall (CiU won more seats due to malapportionment), 30% of its base had a predominantly Catalan identity ("more Catalan than Spaniard")

The 2021 PSC under Salvador Illa has lost 2/3 of the catalanist base: only 10% identify as "more Catalan than Spaniard".

The catalanist middle-class has turned to sovereigntism since 2010

To what extent have the PSC taken most of the C’s voters from the last election? The map would suggest that this is basically what has happened.

This is basically what happened among certain voters, but do remember that a good number of these voters were either PSOE/PSC voters previous to 2017 (the Red suburbs around Barcelona for example) or hopped on the train in the 2019 federal elections.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Alcibiades on February 14, 2021, 04:59:38 PM
The PSC is back, but it's a different party.

Back in 1999 and 2003 elections, when the PSC was the leading party in popular vote under Pasqual Maragall (CiU won more seats due to malapportionment), 30% of its base had a predominantly Catalan identity ("more Catalan than Spaniard")

The 2021 PSC under Salvador Illa has lost 2/3 of the catalanist base: only 10% identify as "more Catalan than Spaniard".

The catalanist middle-class has turned to sovereigntism since 2010

To what extent have the PSC taken most of the C’s voters from the last election? The map would suggest that this is basically what has happened.

This is basically what happened among certain voters, but do remember that a good number of these voters were either PSOE/PSC voters previously (the Red suburbs around Barcelona for example) or hopped on the train in the 2019 federal elections.

So it was essentially a combination of being able to consolidate the less right-wing anti-independence vote and riding the national party’s increased popularity since 2017, as well as passions around the independence issue having somewhat cooled since the very heated circumstances in which the last election was held?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 14, 2021, 05:02:39 PM
The PSC is back, but it's a different party.

Back in 1999 and 2003 elections, when the PSC was the leading party in popular vote under Pasqual Maragall (CiU won more seats due to malapportionment), 30% of its base had a predominantly Catalan identity ("more Catalan than Spaniard")

The 2021 PSC under Salvador Illa has lost 2/3 of the catalanist base: only 10% identify as "more Catalan than Spaniard".

The catalanist middle-class has turned to sovereigntism since 2010

To what extent have the PSC taken most of the C’s voters from the last election? The map would suggest that this is basically what has happened (although the ERC has also been able to gain some coastal areas which voted C’s last time).

Many Cs voters in 2015 and 2017 were borrowed. In the last elections Cs was the leading party in Metropolitan Barcelona, which has been always a socialist stronghold known as the 'red belt'. Many of these centre-left voters identifying "more Spaniard than Catalan" or "equally Spaniard and Catalan" are back. On the other hand, the most right-wing and Spanish nationalist voters have gone from Cs to Vox


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 14, 2021, 05:17:58 PM
PP delegation in the Parliament of Catalonia

1. Alejandro Fernández  (Mr Emoji)
2. Lorena Roldán (the Cs candidate-elect until her replacement by Carlos Carrizosa)
3. Eva Parera (ex-UDC, Barcelona councilor elected in the Manuel Valls list)


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 14, 2021, 05:23:22 PM
I was believing that the PSC lead would grow with the late returns but it seems that the opposite happened. Now, what kind of government will come out of this is anyone's guess.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 14, 2021, 05:36:09 PM
98.5 counted

PSC 23.0 (+9.1) 33 (+16)
ERC 21.3 (=) 33 (+1)
JxCAT 20.1 (-1.6) 32 (-2)
VOX 7.7 (+7.7) 11 (+11)
CUP 6.7 (+2.2) 9 (+5)
ECP 6.9 (-0.6) 8 (=)
Cs 5.6 ( -19.8 ) 6 (-30)
PP 3.8 (-0.4) 3 (-1)
PDeCAT 2.7 (+2.7, split from JxCAT)

Turnout 53.6


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 14, 2021, 05:36:43 PM
In Lleida, PDeCAT could still "steal" a seat from PSC. It unlikely, but possible.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: palandio on February 14, 2021, 05:37:20 PM
The PSC is back, but it's a different party.

Back in 1999 and 2003 elections, when the PSC was the leading party in popular vote under Pasqual Maragall (CiU won more seats due to malapportionment), 30% of its base had a predominantly Catalan identity ("more Catalan than Spaniard")

The 2021 PSC under Salvador Illa has lost 2/3 of the catalanist base: only 10% identify as "more Catalan than Spaniard".

The catalanist middle-class has turned to sovereigntism since 2010

To what extent have the PSC taken most of the C’s voters from the last election? The map would suggest that this is basically what has happened.

This is basically what happened among certain voters, but do remember that a good number of these voters were either PSOE/PSC voters previously (the Red suburbs around Barcelona for example) or hopped on the train in the 2019 federal elections.

So it was essentially a combination of being able to consolidate the less right-wing anti-independence vote and riding the national party’s increased popularity since 2017, as well as passions around the independence issue having somewhat cooled since the very heated circumstances in which the last election was held?
Turnout fell from 79.1% to ca. 53-54%, i.e. almost one third of 2017 voters stayed at home in 2021, which means that C's -> abstention, JxCat -> abstention and ERC -> abstention were probably numerically the strongest voter movements. When all votes are counted, PSC will have gained a mere ca. 40k votes on top of its 607k votes in 2017. Significantly CUP was able to more than double its seat share despite getting less overall votes than in 2017.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 14, 2021, 05:40:00 PM
I was believing that the PSC lead would grow with the late returns but it seems that the opposite happened. Now, what kind of government will come out of this is anyone's guess.

I think the most likely option is  ERC+JxCAT, with Pere Aragonès  as President de la Generalitat and a Junts member as Speaker of the Parliament


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Oryxslayer on February 14, 2021, 05:50:39 PM
I was believing that the PSC lead would grow with the late returns but it seems that the opposite happened. Now, what kind of government will come out of this is anyone's guess.

I think the most likely option is  ERC+JxCAT, with Pere Aragonès  as President de la Generalitat and a Junts member as Speaker of the Parliament

I mean the fact the the ERC leads Junts means that there are other options if they want to pursue a different path to independence than Pudigmont's. ERC+CUP (+ECP?) with outside Junts votes for example.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 14, 2021, 06:09:52 PM
I was believing that the PSC lead would grow with the late returns but it seems that the opposite happened. Now, what kind of government will come out of this is anyone's guess.

I think the most likely option is  ERC+JxCAT, with Pere Aragonès  as President de la Generalitat and a Junts member as Speaker of the Parliament

I mean the fact the the ERC leads Junts means that there are other options if they want to pursue a different path to independence than Pudigmont's. ERC+CUP (+ECP?) with outside Junts votes for example.

I think there's no chance that JxCAT supports an ERC minority government from the outside

ERC+ECP propped up by the PSC is a remote possibility, in case ERC and JxCAT fail to reach an agreement or the CUP refuses to prop them up

But ERC, Junts and the CUP are vindicating pro-independence parties got more than 50% of the vote. They have a lot of differences on strategy and personal quarrels, but they will be pressed by the independence movement to reach a compromise and banish the PSC. Presumably it won't be an easy investiture nor a stable government


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 14, 2021, 06:48:37 PM
 ERC candidate Pere  Aragonès says that he will seek a broad alliance with the parties supporting the right to self-determination and amnesty for the jailed politicians. Aragonès has contacted JxCAT, CUP, ECP and PDeCAT candidates. He has not contacted aSalvador Illa. The problem is that JxCAT and ECP are totally incompatible.  On the other hand, the hostility of many JxCAT leading figures towards ERC makes a coalition agreement and the future cohabitation very difficult. But still, the most likely option is that ERC and JxCAT continue sharing the government

Initially ERC would seek a minority government with CUP and ECP,  propped up by Junts. I doubt the Puigdemont party is willing to be left putside the government


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 14, 2021, 06:53:40 PM
Only Barcelona is now yet to finish. But, it won't change the final results.

ERC candidate Pere  Aragonès says that he will seek a broad alliance with the parties supporting the right to self-determination and amnesty for the jailed politicians. Aragonès has contacted JxCAT, CUP, ECP and PDeCAT candidates. He has not contacted aSalvador Illa. The problem is that JxCAT and ECP are totally incompatible.  On the other hand, the hostility of many JxCAT leading figures towards ERC makes a coalition agreement and the future cohabitation very difficult. But still, the most likely option is that ERC and JxCAT continue sharing the government
His words seem to be pointing that way. I agree that ECP and Junts are completely incompatible, ideological and working wise. But, we'll see what happens. Elections in October could still be also a possibility.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 14, 2021, 06:56:47 PM
JxCAT and ECP are antagonistic in Catalonia

Albiach is still calling for a left-wing tripartite with ERC and PSC

The ECP result is not bad, given the circumstances


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P! on February 14, 2021, 07:39:32 PM
It looks like PDeCAT ate a solid chunk of Junts' support and increased the secessionist vote overall but they appear to have fallen just short of actually winning seats. Curious what they do next and whether their vote consolidates back behind Junts or not.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 14, 2021, 08:13:17 PM
It looks like PDeCAT ate a solid chunk of Junts' support and increased the secessionist vote overall but they appear to have fallen just short of actually winning seats. Curious what they do next and whether their vote consolidates back behind Junts or not.

The pro-independence share grew because turnout decrease affected differently the different 'national communities'. Overall turnout on election day fell abruptly from some 82% in 2017 to 53.5% in 2021. If you go to te elections website, you'll notice that nearly all parties are losing votes. Only the PSC gained some, while Vox didn't contest the 2017 elections

PSC +44,368
ERC -333,203
JxCAT + PDeCAT -303,845 (JUNTSxCAT in 2017)
VOX +217,371 (new)
CUP -6,416
ECP -132,249
Cs -952,203
PP -76,289

With 'national communities' I refer to the different answers on identity respondents give in polls. The identity categories in CIS and CEO surveys are: "Only Catalan", More Catalan than Spaniard", "Equally Catalan and Spaniard", More Spaniard than Catalan" and "Only Spaniard"

The PDeCAT is the remnant of the formerly hegemonic CDC (major partner of CiU), which was a consttuent party of the Junts per Catalunya coalition in 2017 but parted ways with Puigdemont in 2020


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 14, 2021, 08:47:13 PM
I don't have a clue about the future of the PDeCAT. Maybe the party will disappear like Unió after the 2015 elections. It's possible that many PDeCAT members will join JxCAT on a individual basis, even if the party remains. Apparently there is no ground for moderate nationalism in today's Catalonia. The failure of the PNC led by Marta Pascal is tragic. The remnants of Unió are integrated in the PSC list


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 14, 2021, 10:50:05 PM
Results in Barcelona (Turnout 57.13%)

PSC 23.56, ERC 19.07, JxCAT 17.87, ECP 9.19, VOX 7.15, CUP 6.92, Cs 6.23, PP 5.3, PDeCAT 2.84

The PSC comes first in 6 distructs: Ciutat Vella, Sants-Montjüic, Horta-Guinardó, Nou Barris, Sant Andreu and Sant Martí

JxCAT comes first in 4: Eixample, Les Corts, Sarrià-Sant Gervasi and Gràcia

As usual the best district for the PSC is Nou Barris (33.55), but this time the worst is not the affluent Sarrià-Sant Gervasi (18.44) but the nationalistic Gràcia (17.51). The vote for JxCAT is more concentrated in the uptown districts, where the Puigdemont party leads with results in the low 20s. The best JxCAT district is Gràcia (23.45) and the worst Nou Barris (8.92). The vote for ERC is more evenly distributed, which explains why the Junqueras party gets more more votes than JxCAT in the municipality without leading a single district. The best district for ERC is Sants-Montjüic (22.13) and the worst is Sarrià-Sant Gervasi (11.06). En Comú Podem gets its best result in Ciutat Vella (14.18) and the worst in Sarrià-Sant Gervasi (4.46). VOX, PP and Cs follow a similar pattern: better results in the sociological extremes (upper class neighbourhoods and low income periphery) and worse in the middle-class areas. In Sariià-Sant Gervasi, the most affluent district of Barcelona, PP gets 11.56, VOX 11.23 and Cs 8.47. In the upper-middle class Gràcia Vox gets 4.34, Cs 4.17 and PP 3.31. Following the opposite pattern, the CUP gets its best result in Gràcia (10.6) and the worst in Sarrià-Sant Gervasi (3.94). The PDeCAT gets 7.43 in the upppity Sarrià-Sant Gervasi and 0.96 in the low income Nou Barris

Hospitalet de Llobregat (Turnout 47.03%)

PSC 38.96, ERC 15.73, VOX 9.65, ECP 8.87, Cs 7.96, JxCAT 7.18, PP 5.36, CUP 3.51, PDeCAT 0.68

Badalona (Turnout 45.75%)

PSC 30.16, ERC 18.86, JxCAT 12.01, VOX 9.75, ECP 8.04, Cs 6.67, PP 5.73, CUP 5.48, PDeCAT 1.31

Terrassa (Turnout 50.59%)

PSC 25.89, ERC 20.98, JxCAT 16.65, VOX 9.18, ECP 7.56, Cs 6.4, CUP 5.51, PP 3.35, PDeCAT 2.03

Sabadell (Turnout 52.72%)

PSC 27.01, ERC 20.09, JxCAT 17.61, VOX 7.83, ECP 7.83, CUP 6.26, Cs 6.11, PP 3.17, PDeCAT 2.13

Mataró (Turnout 49.9%)

PSC 24.72, ERC 20.13, JxCAT 18.67, VOX 10.7, ECP 6.66, Cs 5.9, CUP 5.45, PP 3.49, PDeCAT 2.33

Santa Coloma de Gramenet (Turnout 44.42%)

PSC 41.67, ERC 14.93, VOX 9.88, ECP 9.81, Cs 8.48, JxCAT 4.77, PP 4.49, CUP 3.4, PDeCAT 0.55

Manresa (Turnout 52.82%)

JxCAT 30.0, ERC 23.72, PSC 15.68, CUP 8.57, VOX 5.53, ECP 4.68, PDeCAT 4.11, Cs 3.26, PP 2.3

Tarragona (Turnout 52.41%)

PSC 24.49, ERC 18.92, JxCAT 14.29, VOX 12.04, PP 7.83, Cs 7.1, ECP 5.85, CUP 5.59, PDeCAT 1.71

Reus (Turnout 46.7%)

ERC 21.1, PSC 20.82, JxCAT 20.0, VOX 10.16, CUP 7.45, Cs 5.79, ECP 4.5, PP 4.48, PDeCAT 3.04

Lleida (Turnout 50.09%)

ERC 21.91, JxCAT 21.17, PSC 20.79, VOX 9.04, CUP 6.12, PP 5.63, Cs 5.29, ECP 4.36, PDeCAT 2.85

Girona (Turnout 57.62%)

JxCAT 32.79, ERC 17.41, PSC 16.59, CUP 10.82, VOX 6.11, ECP 4.36, Cs 3.46, PDeCAT 3.01, PP 2.42



Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Logical on February 15, 2021, 01:07:42 AM
Vox is an urban party but their best result percentage wise was in Val d'Arran.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Zinneke on February 15, 2021, 04:07:23 AM
Vox is an urban party but their best result percentage wise was in Val d'Arran.

I mean, Val d'Arran is an outlier where the overall "unionist" vote share in % is going to be far higher than most places.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on February 15, 2021, 10:17:03 AM
Hey.

So the result was an almost three-way tie between PSC, ERC and Junts (in this order).

Basically 1/4 of the seats to PSC, 1/4 to ERC, 1/4 to Junts, and 1/4 to everyone else combined (mostly unionists).

I have no idea what will happen next. If a continuation of the current alliance between ERC and Junts while difficult is still the most likely scenario, since it would remain a minority government, how would the investiture work? CUP abstention again as a matter of course?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 15, 2021, 10:19:11 AM
CUP abstention is the likeliest scenario yeah; woth Comuns abstaining being a very distant second


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Oryxslayer on February 15, 2021, 10:29:38 AM
I mean if I was in in the ERC I would use the threat of alternative govts, which do exist unlike when Junts tops the polls, to squeeze Junts for everything possible. Basically if you force Junts to decide between abandoning the 50% and forcing the ERC explore anything with the PSC, or accepting a different Nationalist govt with their prominence greatly reduced, one assumes that they will go Nationalist every time - allowing the ERC to play hardball.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Skye on February 15, 2021, 01:21:37 PM
Precinct map from eldiario.es:

https://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/resultados-elecciones-catalanas-calle-calle-consulta-gano-manzana_1_7220231.html


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: palandio on February 15, 2021, 03:24:04 PM
Precinct map from eldiario.es:

https://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/resultados-elecciones-catalanas-calle-calle-consulta-gano-manzana_1_7220231.html
Very interesting!

What are the reasons that in many precincts with strong PSC results (and strong 2017 C's results) the ERC is relatively strong (often in second place) whereas Junts is basically non-existent? Who are these voters? Are they like most of their neighbors when it comes to language, class, family history, etc.?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on February 15, 2021, 03:40:58 PM
Precinct map from eldiario.es:

https://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/resultados-elecciones-catalanas-calle-calle-consulta-gano-manzana_1_7220231.html
Very interesting!

What are the reasons that in many precincts with strong PSC results (and strong 2017 C's results) the ERC is relatively strong (often in second place) whereas Junts is basically non-existent? Who are these voters? Are they like most of their neighbors when it comes to language, class, family history, etc.?

The explanation may well be more complicated than this, but wouldn't you expect a place that leans left unionist-speaking to also lean left separatist-speaking?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: palandio on February 15, 2021, 04:13:18 PM
Precinct map from eldiario.es:

https://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/resultados-elecciones-catalanas-calle-calle-consulta-gano-manzana_1_7220231.html
Very interesting!

What are the reasons that in many precincts with strong PSC results (and strong 2017 C's results) the ERC is relatively strong (often in second place) whereas Junts is basically non-existent? Who are these voters? Are they like most of their neighbors when it comes to language, class, family history, etc.?

The explanation may well be more complicated than this, but wouldn't you expect a place that leans left unionist-speaking to also lean left separatist-speaking?
Good point. In the end if you did a principal component analysis on the precinct results you would probably get two main components (left-right and unionist-separatist) and then it would be completely logical for a precinct in the left-unionist quadrant to have ERC in second place (and sometimes ERC and Vox fighting for second place).

Class is probably correlated with the components, too, with the gradient generally going from poor left-unionist to wealthy (or rural) right-separatist, but with a non-linear bent at the end that puts right-unionist areas in Western Barcelona on top.

But I was also trying to immagine the voters behind the numbers and that's why I originally asked the question.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Former President tack50 on February 15, 2021, 08:10:14 PM
Precinct map from eldiario.es:

https://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/resultados-elecciones-catalanas-calle-calle-consulta-gano-manzana_1_7220231.html
Very interesting!

What are the reasons that in many precincts with strong PSC results (and strong 2017 C's results) the ERC is relatively strong (often in second place) whereas Junts is basically non-existent? Who are these voters? Are they like most of their neighbors when it comes to language, class, family history, etc.?

The explanation may well be more complicated than this, but wouldn't you expect a place that leans left unionist-speaking to also lean left separatist-speaking?

Actually this is correct. As of now, ERC is probably the party in Catalonia that has the broadest coalition and is the most evenly spread by far.

Instead of having very strong strongholds and being weak elsewhere, it manages to get decent minorities everywhere.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Mike88 on February 15, 2021, 08:51:36 PM
When will the CERA votes be counted? Have they had a historical trend or not?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 16, 2021, 02:25:28 AM
I invite you to explore these interesting vlickable interactive graphs explaining the demographics of the February 14 vote, by bloc (pro-independence vs rest of parties) and party

https://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/demografia-14f-vota-grupo-social-elecciones-catalanas_1_7218718.html#click=https://t.co/PVSniqliOP


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Oryxslayer on February 16, 2021, 07:12:59 PM
()


Remember the Police housing precinct we were discussing two months ago? Well, PSC topped the poll, but only because VOX and PP split the conservative vote.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: 𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆 on February 16, 2021, 07:29:26 PM
https://i.ibb.co/qs2m7j8/cops.png


Remember the Police housing precinct we were discussing two months ago? Well, PSC topped the poll, but only because VOX and PP split the conservative vote.

That has to be the most hilarious result of this election. Although of course the Right bloc still beat the Left bloc easily.
Interesting how hard C's was destroyed here, much harder than the average.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Astatine on February 16, 2021, 09:52:32 PM
https://i.ibb.co/qs2m7j8/cops.png


Remember the Police housing precinct we were discussing two months ago? Well, PSC topped the poll, but only because VOX and PP split the conservative vote.

That has to be the most hilarious result of this election. Although of course the Right bloc still beat the Left bloc easily.
Interesting how hard C's was destroyed here, much harder than the average.
The turnout drop is also... something.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Zinneke on February 17, 2021, 10:39:37 AM
https://i.ibb.co/qs2m7j8/cops.png


Remember the Police housing precinct we were discussing two months ago? Well, PSC topped the poll, but only because VOX and PP split the conservative vote.

That has to be the most hilarious result of this election. Although of course the Right bloc still beat the Left bloc easily.
Interesting how hard C's was destroyed here, much harder than the average.
The turnout drop is also... something.

I imagine given its functions are mostly bureaucratic...a lot of the CNP based there work from home these days


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Ex-Assemblyman Steelers on February 18, 2021, 02:44:55 PM
Elsa presidenta!


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on February 18, 2021, 11:36:28 PM
Wow, that is a MASSIVE drop-off in turnout. That's an absolutely disheartening result regardless of who won. And even besides that, with independentists still in the majority, it's hard being very optimistic about a negotiated solution to this mess. Here's hoping, though.


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: njwes on February 19, 2021, 03:39:54 PM
When does government formation begin?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 20, 2021, 11:19:02 AM
When does government formation begin?

ERC and Junts had a first meeting already,  but  negotiations might take some time


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Ex-Assemblyman Steelers on February 20, 2021, 12:54:29 PM
When does government formation begin?

ERC and Junts had a first meeting already,  but  negotiations might take some time

Who else?


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Velasco on February 21, 2021, 01:26:42 AM
When does government formation begin?

ERC and Junts had a first meeting already,  but  negotiations might take some time

Who else?

Once ERC and Junts reach an agreement, they will need to negotiate with the CUP. It's not going to be easy, because the relationship between the two main pro-independence parties is rather strained and they have differences on strategy. Junts and CUP have a rupturist rhetoric,  while ERC currently supports a gradualist approach to independence and rejects unilateralism. Anyway I yhink the most likely outcome is that they will reach some compromise,  because the alternative is calling a new election

There exists other alternative on paper that is politically impossible at this juncture: the PSC-ERC-ECP tripartite. ERC signed a document alongside the other pro-independence parties compromising they are not going to deal with the PSC. On the other hand, ECP won't support a coalition government incorporating Junts. So the only politically viable coalition is the one I mentioned earlier.

It is believed the Spanish government is going to issue a pardon of the Catalan  jailed politicians, maybe before summer.  This gesture would have political repercussions and quite possibly it's a neccessary step towards some kind of reconciliation, but the rift between 'national communities' is too deep in today's Catalonia


Title: Re: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
Post by: Flyersfan232 on February 21, 2021, 07:45:52 PM
When does government formation begin?

ERC and Junts had a first meeting already,  but  negotiations might take some time

Who else?

Once ERC and Junts reach an agreement, they will need to negotiate with the CUP. It's not going to be easy, because the relationship between the two main pro-independence parties is rather strained and they have differences on strategy. Junts and CUP have a rupturist rhetoric,  while ERC currently supports a gradualist approach to independence and rejects unilateralism. Anyway I yhink the most likely outcome is that they will reach some compromise,  because the alternative is calling a new election

There exists other alternative on paper that is politically impossible at this juncture: the PSC-ERC-ECP tripartite. ERC signed a document alongside the other pro-independence parties compromising they are not going to deal with the PSC. On the other hand, ECP won't support a coalition government incorporating Junts. So the only politically viable coalition is the one I mentioned earlier.

It is believed the Spanish government is going to issue a pardon of the Catalan  jailed politicians, maybe before summer.  This gesture would have political repercussions and quite possibly it's a neccessary step towards some kind of reconciliation, but the rift between 'national communities' is too deep in today's Catalonia
that is a very stupid idea