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General Politics => International General Discussion => Topic started by: #TheShadowyAbyss on February 25, 2019, 09:49:33 pm



Title: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: #TheShadowyAbyss on February 25, 2019, 09:49:33 pm


 Pulwama attack: Pakistan warns India against military action (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-47290107)





Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Old School Republican on February 25, 2019, 10:02:30 pm
The US should recognize Kashmir as part of India, and tell Pakistan to back off.


US-India-Israel should form an alliance together to fight the threat of Radical Islam in the middle east






Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Gass3268 on February 25, 2019, 10:11:20 pm
This can't be good.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Old School Republican on February 25, 2019, 10:17:36 pm
India is perfectly justified here .




Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Bagel23 on February 26, 2019, 12:26:19 am
My cousin in law is a PAF F-16 fighter pilot, hopefully it does not escalate to a full on fight (highly doubt it will), I don't want him in harm's way.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Santander 🐸 on February 26, 2019, 04:09:57 am
Inshallah Pakistan zaroor jeetega.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: DavidB. on February 26, 2019, 04:33:22 am


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on February 26, 2019, 06:47:58 am
The habit of the international media to just ignore things in Kashmir - even when they are very serious like the other week - is a pretty serious dereliction of duty. But now they've noticed.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: PSOL on February 26, 2019, 08:50:56 am
I believe this is the first time aircraft has been involved in these border clashes. That by itself puts this incident on a different scale, but I am still skeptical that it will result in anything further that is more intense than the usual cross-border fighting.

The US should recognize Kashmir as part of India, and tell Pakistan to back off.


US-India-Israel should form an alliance together to fight the threat of Radical Islam in the middle east


India only cares about fighting Islamists if they have anything to do with Pakistan or attacks on India. India has been for a while mute and passive in being involved in our or their own misadventures in the Middle East, preferring neutrality for continued energy supplies.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Admiral Lord Horatio D'Ascoyne on February 26, 2019, 08:58:01 am


This is absolutely correct.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Ebsy on February 27, 2019, 02:04:43 am
Pakistan claims it has shot down two Indian jets violating its airspace/dropping bombs and has captured one pilot. India claims it has shot down a pakistani jet. Big escalation.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: kelestian on February 27, 2019, 05:35:59 am
Pakistan claims it has shot down two Indian jets violating its airspace/dropping bombs and has captured one pilot. India claims it has shot down a pakistani jet. Big escalation.

Confirmed: Pakistan shot down Indian MiG-21bis, pilot in custody


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Bagel23 on February 27, 2019, 08:38:41 am
Glad that the pakistani military got one of the pilots before the villagers got to him, otherwise the villagers probably would have like mob killed him, and that would be really bad.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Sbane on February 27, 2019, 09:25:37 am

Trump, please deport. Thanks!


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Cаквояжник on February 27, 2019, 10:28:41 am
Pakistan is either a failed state or a rogue state, I don't know which.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Sbane on February 27, 2019, 02:19:28 pm
Another thing we must keep in mind is that this is an election year in India. Don’t count on restraint from the Indian government.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: mgop on February 27, 2019, 03:00:35 pm
how and why countries and governments like india and pakistan have nuclear arsenal is beyond me...


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Admiral Lord Horatio D'Ascoyne on February 27, 2019, 03:09:13 pm
how and why countries and governments like india and pakistan have nuclear arsenal is beyond me...

What do you mean "how"?

And "why" should be pretty self-explanatory.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: dead0man on February 27, 2019, 03:11:22 pm
Pakistan is either a failed state or a rogue state, I don't know which.
can't it be both?


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Old School Republican on February 27, 2019, 03:15:13 pm
how and why countries and governments like india and pakistan have nuclear arsenal is beyond me...

India should have Nukes, Pakistan shouldnt


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: parochial boy on February 27, 2019, 04:01:38 pm


This is absolutely correct.

By bombing Kashmir? Unlikely tbh


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Bagel23 on February 27, 2019, 06:13:01 pm


Amen. God I hate war. I don’t wish Indians to be harmed either.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Cassandra :( on February 27, 2019, 07:49:40 pm
This crisis should NOT be downplayed.

Quote
THE GUARDIAN: India calls for immediate return of pilot shot down by Pakistan over Kashmir (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/27/pakistan-pm-imran-khan-appeals-talks-india-war-kashmir)

Delhi angered by ‘vulgar display’ of wing commander in bloodied uniform by Islamabad

...

By Wednesday evening, India’s prime minister, Narendra Modi, had yet to comment publicly on the fighting but was meeting military chiefs at his residence in Delhi.

Meanwhile, Pakistan’s prime minister, Imran Khan, appealed for talks, making reference to both countries’ nuclear arsenals.

Khan said in a televised address after the airstrikes that the time had come for a diplomatic solution to the crisis. “With the weapons you have and the weapons we have, can we afford miscalculation? Shouldn’t we think that if this escalates, what will it lead to?”

...

Quote
THE GUARDIAN: Who will pull India and Pakistan back from the edge this time? (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/27/who-will-pull-india-and-pakistan-back-from-the-edge-this-time)

...

It is doubtful that today either President Trump or his secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, has the same leverage in the region as their predecessors. The more unipolar world in which some recent American presidents operated has passed, replaced by a new era of Great Power competition between the US, Russia and China.

...

Ultimately though, it may be the existence of nuclear weapons that pulls the two countries back, rather than outside intervention. With an army more than twice as large, backed by superior weaponry and with an economy 8.5 times the size of Pakistan’s, India can strike hard. But military analysts say this imbalance means Pakistan’s threshold for the use of nuclear weapons is relatively low; a direct attack by India could have incalculable consequences.

I am currently reading Six Days of War: June 1967 and the Making of the Modern Middle East by Michael B. Oren. I have to say, Pakistan's situation vis a vis India reminds me a lot of Israel's with Egypt and the Arab world c. 1967. Both are dwarfed by their enemies, both feel any war may well be a war for survival, and thus both are in a situation where enough pressure could provoke them to strike first to knock out their enemy. I fear Modhi, with election-year myopia and public opinion whipped to a fevered pitch (first by the suicide bombing, then by the capture of this pilot), might push Pakistan over the edge.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: ○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└ on February 27, 2019, 08:31:20 pm
It's interesting timing that while Trump and Kim Jung Un meet to discuss nuclear weapons, 2 other nuclear powers go to war.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Admiral Lord Horatio D'Ascoyne on February 27, 2019, 09:33:58 pm
Pakistan's motivations to have nuclear weapons are understandable. Each time they were at war with India they got beaten pretty badly and this can be seen as a valuable deterrent. The problem, of course, is that Pakistan is inherently internally unstable, and there were also instances of trading nuclear technology.

As of India, their nuclear program started primarily as a way to keep the Chinese in check. After all there was more than two-decade gap between India and Pakistan reaching a nuclear capability. And, due to India's ambitions to be recognized as a full great power, they'll cling to their nukes.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Blue3 on February 27, 2019, 10:45:14 pm
Pakistan needs to be balkanized and de-nuked.

Maybe in 20 years, the independent countries of former Pakistan (plus maybe Bangladesh and a few other neighbors) can enter into an economic union with India.

Maybe 20 years after that, it becomes EU-style union.

Maybe 20 years after that, it's a reunified India.



That is the ideal situation, to me.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Sbane on February 27, 2019, 10:58:31 pm
how and why countries and governments like india and pakistan have nuclear arsenal is beyond me...

India would never use nukes first and they have said so. Pakistan in the other hand reserves the right to strike first.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Sbane on February 27, 2019, 11:03:11 pm
Also, why does Pakistan mind if India does the job they have been promising the world they would do themselves? Neither Pakistani civilians nor the military are being targeted, only terrorists are. Why would Pakistan have a problem with that?


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Beet on February 27, 2019, 11:11:19 pm
Pakistan, India and China should settle all of their border disputes with the Line of Control. Later on, Kashmir can be granted a referendum on what status to be and at the same time Tibet can be granted a referendum on independence. But the first line applies especially. I don't know why these countries insist on keeping open these pointless disputes where nobody ever gains anything.

Europe, North America, Australia, and Latin America have all left behind 19th century-style Great Power politics after seeing the end result, and they don't seem to be suffering for it. Why is Asia practically the only continent that still seems to think it's 1875?


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: ¢®🅰ß 🦀 ©@k€ 🎂 on February 28, 2019, 08:15:25 am
Pakistan needs to be balkanized and de-nuked.

Maybe in 20 years, the independent countries of former Pakistan (plus maybe Bangladesh and a few other neighbors) can enter into an economic union with India.

Maybe 20 years after that, it becomes EU-style union.

Maybe 20 years after that, it's a reunified India.



That is the ideal situation, to me.

It's all very well to sit in the west and comfortably opine on where the borders should and shouldn't based on a cursory understanding of different ethnicities in Pakistan (or elsewhere) but at the end of the day partition is a lazy and fraudulent solution for geopolitical issues. A divided Pakistan would not solve any of the problems the current nation has, and I wouldn't be surprised if the successor states would be even more failed.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Sir Mohamed on February 28, 2019, 09:13:05 am
Both should give up their nukes under a UN mission. This conflict has too much destructive potential, yet it is one that has long been under the radar worldwide.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Gass3268 on February 28, 2019, 11:02:07 am
All of the rouge NPT states (India, Israel, North Korea, and Pakistan) should be forced to give up their nuclear weapons.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on February 28, 2019, 11:02:59 am
And how do you propose this be done?


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: TDAS04 on February 28, 2019, 11:07:13 am
If India gives up its nukes, then how is it supposed to deal with China?


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Gass3268 on February 28, 2019, 11:20:09 am

Very carefully


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Admiral Lord Horatio D'Ascoyne on February 28, 2019, 11:49:10 am
All of the rouge NPT states (India, Israel, North Korea, and Pakistan) should be forced to give up their nuclear weapons.

Nuclear proliferation in a nutshell. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUbqbpBX1Us)


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Old School Republican on February 28, 2019, 01:41:52 pm
All of the rouge NPT states (India, Israel, North Korea, and Pakistan) should be forced to give up their nuclear weapons.

Imagine seriously putting India and Israel in the same sentence as North Korea and Pakistan like this


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Bagel23 on February 28, 2019, 05:58:03 pm

()


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Admiral Lord Horatio D'Ascoyne on February 28, 2019, 06:05:01 pm

Your answer (which honestly can hardly he considered one) is like a politician promising to solve the solve crime problem.

"What are you planning to do?", someone asks.

"A lot," he replies.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Gass3268 on February 28, 2019, 06:33:46 pm

Your answer (which honestly can hardly he considered one) is like a politician promising to solve the solve crime problem.

"What are you planning to do?", someone asks.

"A lot," he replies.

It was mainly a joke to symbolize the point that I really don't have any idea how we could force the those four to get rid of their nukes.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Devout Centrist on February 28, 2019, 06:45:42 pm


Some good news, at least


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Blue3 on February 28, 2019, 11:27:31 pm
Pakistan needs to be balkanized and de-nuked.

Maybe in 20 years, the independent countries of former Pakistan (plus maybe Bangladesh and a few other neighbors) can enter into an economic union with India.

Maybe 20 years after that, it becomes EU-style union.

Maybe 20 years after that, it's a reunified India.



That is the ideal situation, to me.

It's all very well to sit in the west and comfortably opine on where the borders should and shouldn't based on a cursory understanding of different ethnicities in Pakistan (or elsewhere) but at the end of the day partition is a lazy and fraudulent solution for geopolitical issues. A divided Pakistan would not solve any of the problems the current nation has, and I wouldn't be surprised if the successor states would be even more failed.

I said I want them to eventually become reunified with India.

Also, I've been to the region.

And Pakistan is already a loose confederation in reality.

()


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Bagel23 on March 01, 2019, 12:24:08 am


Some good news, at least

They should tattoo a giant shaheen falcon on him before giving him back, just kidding, don't do that, that would just be abuse and wrong.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Big Abraham on March 01, 2019, 01:34:22 am
All of the rouge NPT states (India, Israel, North Korea, and Pakistan) should be forced to give up their nuclear weapons.

Imagine seriously putting India and Israel in the same sentence as North Korea and Pakistan like this

Imagine seriously believing that India and Israel haven't refused to sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty and that India and Israel do not possess a weapons programme abetted by the United States


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Old School Republican on March 01, 2019, 02:01:18 am
All of the rouge NPT states (India, Israel, North Korea, and Pakistan) should be forced to give up their nuclear weapons.

Imagine seriously putting India and Israel in the same sentence as North Korea and Pakistan like this

Imagine seriously believing that India and Israel haven't refused to sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty and that India and Israel do not possess a weapons programme abetted by the United States

I was objecting to the rogue part:


By the way I consider India and Israel to be the good guys in the Region while I consider Pakistan and the terrorists trying to destroy Israel(There are multiple groups) to the be the bad guys in the region .


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Big Abraham on March 01, 2019, 02:34:26 pm
All of the rouge NPT states (India, Israel, North Korea, and Pakistan) should be forced to give up their nuclear weapons.

Imagine seriously putting India and Israel in the same sentence as North Korea and Pakistan like this

Imagine seriously believing that India and Israel haven't refused to sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty and that India and Israel do not possess a weapons programme abetted by the United States

I was objecting to the rogue part:


By the way I consider India and Israel to be the good guys in the Region while I consider Pakistan and the terrorists trying to destroy Israel(There are multiple groups) to the be the bad guys in the region .


You do realise the United States supported Pakistan's nuclear programme, right?


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Bagel23 on March 01, 2019, 02:37:49 pm
All of the rouge NPT states (India, Israel, North Korea, and Pakistan) should be forced to give up their nuclear weapons.

Imagine seriously putting India and Israel in the same sentence as North Korea and Pakistan like this

Imagine seriously believing that India and Israel haven't refused to sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty and that India and Israel do not possess a weapons programme abetted by the United States

I was objecting to the rogue part:


By the way I consider India and Israel to be the good guys in the Region while I consider Pakistan and the terrorists trying to destroy Israel(There are multiple groups) to the be the bad guys in the region .


You do realise the United States supported Pakistan's nuclear programme, right?

We also supported the Afghan Mujahideen in the 1980s.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Big Abraham on March 01, 2019, 02:58:56 pm
All of the rouge NPT states (India, Israel, North Korea, and Pakistan) should be forced to give up their nuclear weapons.

Imagine seriously putting India and Israel in the same sentence as North Korea and Pakistan like this

Imagine seriously believing that India and Israel haven't refused to sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty and that India and Israel do not possess a weapons programme abetted by the United States

I was objecting to the rogue part:


By the way I consider India and Israel to be the good guys in the Region while I consider Pakistan and the terrorists trying to destroy Israel(There are multiple groups) to the be the bad guys in the region .


You do realise the United States supported Pakistan's nuclear programme, right?

We also supported the Afghan Mujahideen in the 1980s.

This is true. America has been the world's leading terrorist state for many decades now.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on March 01, 2019, 04:54:31 pm
You know, sometimes it isn't all about you?


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: L.D. Smith on March 02, 2019, 02:06:15 pm
You think this is bad? Just wait until the water supply [in Kashmir] becomes more valuable.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Kingpoleon on March 03, 2019, 04:26:34 pm
China and Russia will watch this very carefully. They can’t afford a major war in their backyard.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: SirWoodbury on March 05, 2019, 11:44:15 am
China and Russia will watch this very carefully. They can’t afford a major war in their backyard.
India is in Russia's backyard??


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: DINGO Joe stands on Sanchez on March 06, 2019, 11:26:05 am
Turns out the India bombing completely missed it's target

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-kashmir-pakistan-airstrike-insi/satellite-images-show-buildings-still-standing-at-indian-bombing-site-idUSKCN1QN00V


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: dead0man on March 06, 2019, 01:37:00 pm
That's rather embarrassing for the IAF and Modi.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Admiral Lord Horatio D'Ascoyne on March 06, 2019, 02:29:53 pm
China and Russia will watch this very carefully. They can’t afford a major war in their backyard.
India is in Russia's backyard??

It would affect them, though, shared border or not. Pakistan has long been a China's ally, while Russia maintains a "special relationship" with India, going back all the way to the Soviet era.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: ¢®🅰ß 🦀 ©@k€ 🎂 on March 06, 2019, 03:03:27 pm
China and Russia will watch this very carefully. They can’t afford a major war in their backyard.
India is in Russia's backyard??

It would affect them, though, shared border or not. Pakistan has long been a China's ally, while Russia maintains a "special relationship" with India, going back all the way to the Soviet era.

Isn't the Chinese alliance relatively recent given that Pakistan was on the US side in the Cold War?


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Old School Republican on March 06, 2019, 03:58:42 pm
China and Russia will watch this very carefully. They can’t afford a major war in their backyard.
India is in Russia's backyard??

It would affect them, though, shared border or not. Pakistan has long been a China's ally, while Russia maintains a "special relationship" with India, going back all the way to the Soviet era.

Isn't the Chinese alliance relatively recent given that Pakistan was on the US side in the Cold War?

The reason US supported Pakistan in 1971 was because of China. There were already talks going on between the US and China at the time to potentially normalize relations between the nations at the time and the US didn't want to alienate the Chinese.

India was considered a nonaligned state even by 1980: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War_(1979%E2%80%931985)


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: TDAS04 on March 06, 2019, 04:10:17 pm
China and Russia will watch this very carefully. They can’t afford a major war in their backyard.
India is in Russia's backyard??

It would affect them, though, shared border or not. Pakistan has long been a China's ally, while Russia maintains a "special relationship" with India, going back all the way to the Soviet era.

Isn't the Chinese alliance relatively recent given that Pakistan was on the US side in the Cold War?

China and Pakistan have been allies since the early 1960s.  The US and China were practically allies against the USSR from Nixon onward.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: ○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└ on March 07, 2019, 05:46:21 pm
China and Russia will watch this very carefully. They can’t afford a major war in their backyard.
India is in Russia's backyard??

It would affect them, though, shared border or not. Pakistan has long been a China's ally, while Russia maintains a "special relationship" with India, going back all the way to the Soviet era.

Isn't the Chinese alliance relatively recent given that Pakistan was on the US side in the Cold War?

Nope. When Bangladesh got its independence, there was some talk of a Bangladesh /  India / USSR vs USA / China / Pakistan war.


Title: Re: Tensions between India-Pakistan escalating
Post by: Bagel23 on March 07, 2019, 08:53:16 pm
I mean it was a lie, but it was a calculated political move for Modi, and it will pay off. He will win reelection big. This also makes me doubt the claim that they took down an F16.