Talk Elections

https://mobile.twitter.com/Solwii/status/1117838050342645760?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

God, this is terrible. The fire looks really large too :(
So much culture and history....

Hopefully they can stop the flames from destroying too much of the interior. Just terrible.

The spires a goner.

That sucks.

Did they try water helicopters already, like Trump suggested ?

The steeple is gone. Collapsed in.

'Luckily' it's a 19th century replacement I think. But the roof is completely gutted.

Apparently it collapsed right down on to the alter.

Thankfully this doesn’t appear to be terrorism. That’s the last thing the world needs right now.

A lot of the building, particularly the interior, is/was. The 'good' news is that cathedrals are living buildings and the French state will presumably throw open the coffers to rebuild and restore what has to be. The bad news is that, being realistic, they're unlikely to do as good a job as their 19th century forebears did. Have to hope as much of the shell survives as possible. That aside the main worry has to be for the stained glass...

Holy sh***

This looks pretty terrible. What caused the fire is still unclear?

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Look at the rose window there. F**k.

It is being widely reported that the fire is linked to ongoing restoration work. If this turns out to be so, then I hope there are prosecutions.

:(

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The God Emperor has some advise

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1117844987293487104

Have you ever seen such an apocalyptic image? You can see the demons in the form of the ravens, circling menacingly around it.

NBC reporting no injuries. That’s a miracle.

Churches have burned down all the time, because they are ... old.

No sign of the apocalypse ...

Aww, I'm sorry about this France, please ignore our piece of totally useless shat and his stupid tweets, we love you.

I don’t mean that literally - we’ll not entirely at least. This event, though explainable by science, was demonic in nature. Every time a church burns, the presence of a demon is manifested. It doesn’t matter if that demon takes the form of a short circuiting electrical outlet or a sheriff’s racist son, the event itself transpired none the less.

But I admit I have an apostolic outlook on my faith.

Not familiar enough with French law to know for sure. But even if that is the case, then I'm sure exemptions can be made...

Glasgow's number one historical building burned down...twice (second time during the restoration). Having said that, the first time the Mackintosh Library was gutted they were able to recover a great deal of metalwork and glasswork from the fire.

Per the mayor, the focus is now no longer on suppressing the fire, but saving the art and relics that remain inside. The building may be completely gone...


Absolutely terrible. I hope they at least are successful in this.

It should be noted that European cities experienced an insane amount of fires already, especially during the 30 Years War and WW1 + 2.

Terrible, this happened last year to a cathedral in Milwaukee, was under renovation, people didn't have the right permits/experience to do it, lit the roof on fire somehow and ran away, gutted the place. Nothing compared to the likes of this though.

I'm sure the men and women fighting to save this cultural treasures are well aware if the tools available to them and are conducting the heart-rending job of balancing the damage being done by the flames, the damage that will be done by the various means to try and fight it, and the need to save as much as possible. I'm equally confident Little Donnie is incapable of understanding that. Perhaps his babysitters could get him a model cathedral and some plastic aircraft to play with as a distraction, before he says something even more unfortunate?

Just horrifying that such an important part of French history and culture is being destroyed. Awful, awful stuff. :(

I literally feel sick hearing and watching this occur. I can't believe an "accident" like this could happen in 2019. Hearing that they are basically giving up on saving the structure is heartbreaking.

Also I think of this happening after the tragic shootings Paris has had over the past decade, it just brings a tear to my eye for the city of Paris.

I went to Paris a number of years ago with my now wife, and every single morning we were in Paris we went to daily mass at the Cathedral. It was a series of moments that really felt life changing. It is really saddening to know that Notre Dame will never exist as we knew it ever again.

This is absolutely gut-wrenching. They can and will rebuild. Notre Dame has many scars from throughout its history and it has survived a lot. I truly hope and believe this won't be the end of Notre Dame as we know it, even if it takes decades to rebuild.

Just thought about it ...

I have been in there as well in 2005, while Interrailing through Europe with my girlfriend.

Will look for my old harddrive and dig out the pics from 14 years ago ... :(

Accidentally I've been just re-reading Victor Hugo, thinking I must go and see the Notre Dame when I have a chance.

Heartbreaking. Sad day.

Appalling. I don't know what else I can say about this.

I was trying to figure out what in the United States would be remotely comparable and the closest I could come up with was if the National Cathedral, the Lincoln Memorial, and more than one of the really old Puritan->Congregationalist->UCC/UU churches in Eastern Massachusetts all went out at once. Even that might not be as scarring.

They think that the pressure of the water drop could have buckled the walls.  However, nearly everyone was asking the same question. 

Probably something like the Statue of Liberty burning.

hmm, I'm supposed to be going from Gare de Lyon to Montparnasse on Wednesday.

Might get out and have a closer look.

The flying buttresses have counterweights on them; some of are on the roof.   The buttresses could fail, meaning the walls could collapse.

The right tower seems to be on fire now.

The equivalent in America would not even be a church. Notre Dame for the French and Parisians would be like the White House or Capitol for Americans. Its not a religion thing, its a national symbol.

Yes, but a national symbol without any functional (governmental) purpose, unlike the White House or Capitol.

Statue of Liberty is probably still the best analog. 

Apparently, the firefighters were stuck in a traffic jam and could only start with the work 30 minutes after the alert ...

Yeah, that’s really the only apt comparison I could think of.

The American analogy would have to be St Patrick's (NY), the National Cathedral (DC), the Moron Tabernacle (UT) and Independence Hall (PA) all burnt at the same time.   

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47941794

St Patricks, the National Cathedral and Mormon Tabernacle have no national significance to the vast majority of Americans.  Independence Hall probably isn't even recognizable by most Americans, much less internationally recognizable.

Notre Dame burning is eliciting such a strong reaction in France and around the world because it's probably the second most internationally-recognizable symbol of France, not (except for a small minority) for its religious significance.  The Statue of Liberty is perhaps the only similarly recognizable symbol of the United States. 

Like Rockhound would say in „Armageddon“:

More like Statue of Liberty + Smithsonian or Library of Congress. We don't store a lot of unique history at the Statue of Ljberty.

It would probably have to be something akin to the Statue of Liberty collapsing.

EDIT: I see theres consensus

I do wonder if the vaulted ceiling offered protection. If so, the damage might be contained.

This is very sad. The Cathedral of Our Lady of Paris has a rich history like the coronation of King Henry VI, King Louis XIV, Mary Stuart, the coronation of Napoleon, Nazi occupation of France, the liberation of France, and more. A symbol of Paris, a symbol of France, and a symbol of Gothic architecture. My condolences to the French people.

C'est très triste. La Cathédrale Notre-Dame de Paris a une histoire riche comme le couronnement du roi Henri VI, du roi Louis XIV, de Marie Stuart, le couronnement de Napoléon, l'occupation nazie de la France, la libération de la France, et plus encore. Un symbole de Paris, un symbole de la France, et un symbole de l'architecture Gothique. Mes condoléances au peuple français.

French Interior Ministry: saving Notre Dame is not certain.
The firefighters fear that the fire could reach and destroy the North Tower.

It looks increasingly likely that the fire has spread to the towers and if that's true then there is likely little hope of saving them.

Twitter's already full of idiots trying to spin it in a known way.

You could end that sentence after "idiots" and it would apply in almost any situation.

No one throws shade like the French.
https://twitter.com/SecCivileFrance/status/1117874924268376064

It looks like the fire is going down, at least modestly. I'm no engineer, but it looks like the stone frame, and hopefully some of the windows will stay intact. The bronze statues on the roof definitely were saved. The biggest question marks are the religious relics inside.

video:
https://twitter.com/Inaki_Gil/status/1117868382785802242?s=20

The towers are saved.

just heard that, i'm happy about that, apparently the structure in general will survive as well

According to Australian TV news.

Crown of Thorns is gone.

Wood from the Crucifixion Cross is gone.

I find it hard to believe they would keep this stuff in the attic of a wooden building, but who knows.

That is very good news. May I ask who is reporting this?

Now they're just saying they're optimistic that they'll save the towers, they aren't mentioning the rest of the structure anymore.

I'm watching the live feed on CBS (I'm on CBS just because it's the first live video that appeared on my facebook feed, otherwise normally I'd watch this type of thing on the BBC)

Apparently according to Paris Police, so that's something at least.

It was reported earlier that they were saved, but there could be conflicting reports.

Guys, please refrain from trying to spin it one way or the other to fit one's ideological message. This thread's been very respectful so far and I'd like to keep it this way.

I know they reported earlier that recovering the artifacts was the top priority above containing the fire, and I have to imagine those had top priority unless they were kept in a particularly dangerous area.

French officials announced that the structure has survived
https://mobile.twitter.com/HalaGorani/status/1117898351830130688?ref_src=twsrc%5...

https://twitter.com/koliadelesalle/status/1117865987670364160?s=21

Translation: “Good News: All the works of art have survived. Thee treasure of the cathedral, the crown of thorns, the holy sacraments”.


(At least I’m assuming that’s what ‘saints sacraments’ means, someone please correct me if I’m wrong.)

Macron: "This cathedral, we will rebuild it, because it's our destiny, because that's what the French expect"

Clearly, not all of the artworks are saved. But looks like the major ones are now safe.

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Hope they laser-scanned the spire.

But this cathedral has been looted and robbed before. This next one will be about the 4th major restoration attempt.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-16/notre-dame-cathedral-paris-engulfed-by-fire-roof-collapses/11018158

"It was ransacked by rioting Protestant Huguenots in the 16th century, pillaged again during the French Revolution of the 1790s and left in a state of semi-neglect."

Religion is not the issue here. I'll repost the part in question:


The dog-whistling here is obvious. The same would go for somebody using the fire to attack the right or people of faith.

You're free to email Dave, because I'm standing by my action.

The spire's a big loss and I can imagine a lot of the interior has had it. The rebuild will be very expensive, that's for sure.

I was criticizing no one but ourselves. It does not violate the TOS and I will e-mail Dave about it.

With all the irreperable loss let's just be grateful the structure is saved. It would be absolutely heathwrenching to see Paris without Notre Dame.

Thank God the fire is under controled. Paris without Notre-Dame is unthinkable.

This is absolutely terrible, but it looks like it won’t be as catastrophic as originally predicted. They seemed to be indicating they thought the whole structure would be lost just two hours ago. Losing the spires and the stain-glassed windows is a huge blow, though. Very sad, but thankfully the structure as a whole has survived.

I wonder if wouldn't it be better, due to impossibility of reconstructing the interior without it reeking artificiality, to turn the renovated cathedral into some sort of museum. Just a thought.

Why would it seem artificial? So many churches have burned down over the centuries and have been rebuilt perfectly and beautifully. Turning it into a museum means accepting to close the chapter on this church and, by extension, on Paris' and France's Christian identity. Which would seem completely unacceptable to me. In that case, it would not just be a metaphor for European civilization burning (fully expecting this to be deleted again) - it would literally be that.

Seeing from the TV images, it seems that the vaults of the cathedral have survived almost intact, although i'm not quite sure about that.    

A Cathedral is a living building; there's no reason why it cannot be a restoration of a restoration (as it would be: and almost certainly will be). The memory, meaning and history lost won't be replaceable and it won't be as good - even if we ignore the difficulties of replicating techniques of the Middle Ages, even replicating those used in the great restoration of the 19th century will be hard going - but it will still be Notre-Dame, the great Cathedral of Paris. Consider the rebuilding of Reims Cathedral a century ago now.

Anyway, the survival of the West End is, all things considered, something to be extraordinarily thankful for.

Some parts of the vaults have colapsed, but the majority seems intact.
https://twitter.com/euronews/status/1117919759511826432

If that is the full extent of the damages, that is a remarkable relief. Though I imagine the building must be greatly weakened.

Wow. The altar survived? That's amazing! I'm not a religious person, but that absolutely warms my heart.

You're right. I posted this because I'm admittedly not very familiar with the business of reconstruction of really old and historically invaluable objects, items. I overlooked the spiritual factor too.

Now that you've mentioned all this, I'm reminded of people wondering whether there was any point of rebuilding Warsaw, or at least its historical parts. Not so long ago I actually had a conversation with an old man raised in pre-1944 Warsaw, who can't stand the reconstructed Old Town because it's artificial for him. But he too admitted it was a correct decision to rebuild. There were plans to just move capital to Łodź on a permanent basis and leave the rabbles as a reminder, but the rabbles were still Warsaw.

Wonderful! :)

You're right. It's important for such symbols to endure. While writting this post I've been under the impression the interior is completely lost and forgot about long history of rebuilding ruined landmarks.

If the Warsaw Cathedral of St. John was destroyed (it already was destroyed once, in 1944), I most likely wouldn't entertain any other thought than rebuilding.

Donald Trump:

"The cause of the fire appears to be due to ...... RESTORATION.

Restoration....what's going on with that?"

The irony is that most of the restoration was funded by money from the USA.

Far more of the interior structure has survived than seemed plausible a couple of hours ago. Quite the credit to the original builders, and the 19th century restorers too.

It's crazy to think just hours ago most of us thing that even if the structure somehow holds, there's nothing left of the interior. A great relief.

Pretty sad when I first heard this fire I thought it was a fire in Notre Dame Indiana.

Am heading reports that the lower North rose window appears to have survived. Also sounds like it’s the only one that did.

Agreed, it's my favorite Parisian monument (and frankly the one real French people care about the most)

NO!

Exactly, Notre Dame will not be the new Coventry!

Exactly

Yes, if there was a part of the cathedral that had to survive above all others, it was the West end.

If true that could almost be called miraculous. North rose is/was actually the one with the most material from the Middle Ages.

Good to see some heart muscle from our French compratiots.

Is the cathedral in Amiens built in a similar fashion, and a possibility that is will also eventually suffer a similar fate?

I was under the impression it was larger in size.

 

Did the communist government of Poland drag their feet over rebuilding the Warsaw Cathedral of St. John?

^^^Hero

<3 <3 <3 thank you so much to this Father.

What a tragic scene. I regret that during the hubbub of Holy Week in 2013 I did not take the extra time to go inside. I will have to rely on my memories of the interior from my visit in Jan 1992, one of the most compelling spaces I've been in.

For now I will salute those memories by opening and enjoying a snifter or two of Hine rare VSOP Cognac.

Told you the stone vaulted ceiling would offer protection :D The fire was clearly ripping through the ceiling void and the wood. The fire service doused it with the right intensity to not bring it down further but no doubt the whole stone vault will need to be secured internally if it's been warped by the heat.

It's still a five year plus restoration at least but much less damage than was feared.

And, outing myself further as an architectural geek, while the stained glass has been saved it may have internally shattered as happened with York Minster, so they'll need to check that out first and secure it with adhesive plastic before removal.

Interestingly the St. John's Archcathedral (forgot to mention it's an archcathedral) was reconstructed rather quickly, between 1948 and 1956.

It was the Warsaw Royal Castle that was only rebuilt in the 70s.


By the way, speaking of remaining structures here's the Old Town Market after liberation:

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And currently:

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Sorry for an ocassional polishposting. Not trying to hijack the thread.

Communist governments have often done a better job at rebuilding cities in their old state following WW2 than Western governments. Think about the implications of that.

Well, after the war most of Soviet-backed governments in Eastern Europe were trying very hard to pretend they're not "really that communist" (hell, Bierut's membership in the PPR was kept "secret" for some time). There still was the illusion of honest elections to follow and maintaining full sovereignty, which was especially evident in Poland. Dragging one's feet over rebuilding Warsaw would be too risky, even though many commies really preferred to just start over in Łódź, as much easier to control among other things. The idea of rebuilding the capital was just too important to the millions.

Yes, it shouldn't be assumed that the glass that has survived will be in a good way, or that any restoration required on the glass will be quick (it certainly wasn't at York Minister). But I'm - is it possible to have bittersweet delight? - that any survived at all, let alone a decent proportion (it seems). The extent to which the building protected itself (as you say, vaulting in a cathedral isn't just there because it is extremely pretty) is remarkable.

I'm glad I got to see it when I did.

Those 13th century stonemasons who designed and built that vault deserve a sainthood, and I'm only barely joking. Their work has saved so much for their church, country, and God.

Thanks to all the architecture nerds here providing some much-needed perspective *hughughug*

So actually all three of the main rose windows appear to have survived.

Remarkable:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfNHaBeirYc

If the spire fell on the walls, it may have been a different story.

The way the fire looked on the news, that is a great result.

$1 Billion dollars in donations should get some nice new bench seats.

Yay 💥 🎈 🧁

What was lost and what survived
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/europe/what-was-lost-what-survived-devastating-notre-dame-fire-n995026 (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/europe/what-was-lost-what-survived-devastating-notre-dame-fire-n995026)


Saved
The Crown of Thorns was recovered when Paris fire chaplain Jean-Marc Fournier accompanied firefighters into the burning cathedral to recover the ancient relic, said Philippe Goujon, mayor of Paris' 15th District.

The artifact, which was brought to Paris by King Louis IX in the 13th century, is purported to have been pressed on to Jesus' head during the crucifixion.

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A priest wipes the Crown of Thorns, a relic housed at Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, in April 2017.Philippe Lopez / AFP/Getty Images file
Le Grand Orgue, or "the great organ," and its 8,000 pipes also survived, authorities said. The instrument, which dates to the 1730s, was constructed by Francois Thierry.

The organ is "a very fragile instrument, especially its pipes," according to Bertrand de Feydeau, vice president of the preservation group Fondation du Patrimoine.

"It has not burnt, but no one can tell whether it has been damaged by water. Nobody knows if it is (in) a functioning state or will need to be restored," de Feydeau said.

()
Philippe Lefebvre plays the organ at Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris in May 2013.Christophe Ena / AP file
A famed piece of stained glass known as the South Rose window also survived, as did the Tunic of Saint Louis, a long, shirt-like garment from the 13th century, officials said.

"The crown of thorns, the tunic of St. Louis and many other major artifacts are now in a safe place," Paris Mayor Anne Hidalgo tweeted, thanking first responders for their work in saving the treasures.

Sixteen copper statues of saints that could have been in harm's way Monday had been removed just days earlier as part of the restoration efforts.

[...]


Sorry, but had to modify this due to the "copyright violation" rule - K.

Couldn't some other countries donate the wood necessary to rebuild the roof if France does not have the requisite number of trees?

Great post Blue.

Given modern forestry practices, the only oaks likely to be of the requisite size to rebuild the roof exactly as it was will be in protected areas. There also isn't any other tree suited to the task than an oak. Those that produce wood of sufficient strength don't produce beams the size of those that were in Notre Dame.

It would be possible to plant oaks and let them grow to the requisite size and age, but I think we don't want to wait until the 23rd or 24th century to rebuild the roof.

Maybe I'm weird, but hearing about this problem over the last couple days just has me daydreaming just how different Europe was back then. Even our movies and TV shows, which have tried to be historically accurate, have probably overlooked things like this. Just imagine a Europe that was covered in these giant trees less than a millennium ago.

Yup. A major reason why Britain turned to coal in the 17th century was that the island was suffering a shortage of charcoal due to overuse of the forests. For most purposes, charcoal is superior to the coal found in Britain.

In other (kinda) unrelated news, a man with two gas canisters was arrested in NYC trying to enter Saint Patrick’s Cathedral.

It wasn't though. The approximate balance between farmland and woodland has been roughly the same in most of Western Europe since the Bronze Age (with a degree of fluctuation over time) and woods have been managed environments throughout the period. 'Wildwood' disappeared a long, long time ago: we don't even really know what it would have looked like. What is true is that the spread of modern Prussian forestry methods (as opposed to the traditional irregular systems of timber trees here, and coppices for wood there etc.) from the late 18th century has resulted in more uniformity within woodlands and in considerably less very old trees than would otherwise be the case* - but very old European broadleaf trees of any species are generally not suitable for use as timber trees!

_{*I think a majority of trees over a certain age in all of Western Europe are in just one country; i.e. Britain.}

No, completely untrue. Old (and self-evidently ridiculous if you know anything about charcoal production) myth.

So the charcoal of Britain was poor quality also, or was the bottleneck in iron and steel production the poor quality of British iron ore? It wasn't until the invention of the blast furnace that British iron was considered even comparable to that of other places in quality.

So what do you all think of Macron's architectural competition to design a new roof and spire for Notre Dame?

I think it's a Massive HP move.

Tbh different materials will most likely have to be used and I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to a new design being used (although rebuilding them to the closest design possible to the old ones would be my preference), but the roof and spire need to be rebuilt in Gothic style at the very least. On the other hand, I think Macron wants a "modern" design built in glass or something like that. If that's the case, I'd rather just not have the roof or spire rebuilt.

Agreed. It's been pretty clear everybody wants the Notre Dame to be rebuilt as closely to what it was before, because it's freaking Notre Dame, because of continuity and preservance, because of its iconic look, etc. Sure, it can't be done in exactly the same way as you've pointed out, but if this is the intention, you might just as well erect a whole new structure and call it "Notre Dame".

Yeah. Obviously it can’t be the exact same materials, but the closer the better for this.

Cause of fire officially confirmed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c8DEK3I3pU

https://www.nouvelobs.com/societe/20190503.OBS12448/les-francais-seront-consultes-sur-la-reconstruction-de-notre-dame-de-paris.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1rvzUc9-0xyukeFnuwIlLC25BON3nrJIozK1UcjNozyeO101Xs2xv_XLY#Echobox=1556899022

"The French (people) will be consulted on the reconstruction of Notre Dame"

I’ve always found Gothic architecture to be grotesque and sinister, but I can only imagine the cosmopolitan monument to secularism that will replace it. Surely it’ll be an architectural abortion.

Wrong. This happened.

https://youtu.be/0NYO9O5Md5o

"Consultation" is a wonderfully vague term.

Yeah, Macron is going to do whatever he likes, regardless of what the people think.

Seriously that guy is so egotistical it isn't funny. I'm absolutely sick and tired of him, I'd vote for the left just to get him out at this point.

I love Gothic architecture, but yeah I agree with the rest of what you said.

I reject the notion that cosmopolitcan secularism would want to ruin Notre Dame by building some IM Pei-style monstrosity. I really don't know if that trend really has a demographic supporting it beyond architects who want to make a name for themselves.

The government wants it. Macron for one has no respect for France's heritage, and then "Jupiter" wants to leave his mark on history by making a big modification to Notre Dame.

For a while Merkel was my least favorite European leader, but now it's pretty easily "Jupiter" Macron.

Do you have any evidence for that? You know I'm no fan of FBM, but I don't think it's fair to just assume he has some ridiculous plans for Notre Dame just because he's a he's a megalomaniacal creep (which he is).

Well he is holding a comeption to choose the new design and did say he'd consider modern designs, if he's holding a competition and said that, we know what he wants.

This is ridiculous.


If the Statue of Liberty (which actually already IS a secular monument) was partially destroyed, no politician in the mainstream would be calling for a "competition to choose a new design". Anyone who did would be laughed out of the room.

Wtf is Macron doing?

Well, the US did with the WTC.

Counterpoint being that the WTC was legitimately ugly, while Notre Dame is renowned for its beauty.

https://www.rtbf.be/info/monde/detail_l-architecte-belgo-parisien-vincent-callebaut-propose-son-projet-pour-notre-dame?id=10216877&fbclid=IwAR15bCg0vvWW__Ih4Kvt0IiiHWkDsGLZJqHrPENg1h2nwRL8eGOFJDhQvQk

A serious proposal for the restauration of Notre Dame...it's disgusting!

I actually don't mind this, but that's primarily because I really, really love the interior of the Sagrada Familia.

If they actually build that glass monstrosity then frankly they should just raze the whole thing.

It is very pretty, but it's not Notre Dame. Let this architect build his own cathedral somewhere else.

Exactly, I'd rather see it be left as a ruin at this point.

Most French people want it restored the way it was, or at least have it fit the original style, but Macron and LREM don't care, they're adamant on having a modern monstrosity built.

EXACTLY! You don't mix styles like that

https://www.francetvinfo.fr/culture/arts-expos/architecture/notre-dame-de-paris-les-francais-majoritairement-opposes-a-une-loi-d-exception-pour-accelerer-la-reconstruction-selon-un-sondage_3435847.html?fbclid=IwAR2SujHYEfTl6s9KqQgT0ABD9YUx53VSLHmOm_rN3cEOgResAUWZMwTZnP4

The proof the French are opposed to "reconstruction" in a modern design, and with these abortions called "designs" being submitted, that number will continue to rise. Anyone with decent taste will be opposed soon.

You'd be surprised.

Our government and LREM fit that demographic and they support it.

That new spire is probably intended to represent Macron's manhood. He'll probably like it to be furnished with gold too.

mfw Macron attempts to rebuild Notre Dame as some modernist disaster

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What I'm most worried about is if they super rush the rebuild so Macron can be in charge of opening it in his second term, which would doubtless cause an embarrassingly shoddy bit of workmanship.

Eh, I actually think that mixing styles of architecture like this can work quite well in some instances.


But this really isn't the proper scenario to be doing it. As someone said above, it's not Notre Dame.

The last thing we need is to see another fire because someone screws up.

I think a modern rebuild could be the right call, if done correctly. Look to the Reichstag for more. Trying to make it like it was as if the fire never happened and it was still the 1300s just seems disingenuous. Preserve and salvage all that stands, but build the roof to represent contemporary France (and TBF, I've always found the interior of the Notre Dame far too dark.)

Eww gross no!

Leave it as it is now if that's your plan

http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/notre-dame-hidalgo-veut-une-renovation-a-l-identique-de-la-toiture-et-la-charpente-20190526?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3-GdnN9xkldBg737CTQuitbgQ5Dgr5KplKfcPEWA383vvJY2u3Nk8c5L8#Echobox=1558869035

Even the PS mayor of Paris, Anne Hidalgo, wants Notre Dame restored identically to how it was before. Jupiter needs to listen.

https://www.thelocal.fr/20190528/french-senate-says-notre-dame-must-be-restored-exactly-to-how-it-was?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&fbclid=IwAR2aFFGIb_O1rjm5Lv9kBbmzI4MxbFg41O0HcYs29j8MnTdYf71jDhrSg8E

The French Senate says Notre Dame must be restored exactly how it was

Good. I'm fine with some internal structural updates, since it's not like we have a lot of enormous 800 year old oak trees laying around, but the restoration should be as close to original as possible.

https://www.lemonde.fr/culture/article/2019/06/05/notre-dame-desaccord-profond-entre-l-assemblee-et-le-senat_5471717_3246.html

The National Assembly and the Senate can't come up with a compromise on the Notre Dame restoration (or as LREM would say, "reconstruction") bill, and given in France if both houses can't agree, the lower house has the last word, it looks like Macron will get the bill he wants and will be able to do whatever he wants to Notre Dame.

AP: Notre Dame celebrates 1st Mass since devastating April fire (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/notre-dame-celebrates-1st-mass-since-devastating-april-fire/ar-AACVbbU?ocid=spartanntp)

Great write-up from NYT on the fire and the firefighters who saved the bell towers:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/07/16/world/europe/notre-dame.html

To me, it looked like all of the experts on the news were bracing for it to collapse & were shocked when it didn't.

For the record, not the same article I posted in the France thread (so I don't get any new complaints):

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.la-croix.com/amp/1201053673

According to the dean of Notre Dame Cathedral, the design competition will only concern the spire and the square in front of the Cathedral, so if he's right there's no chance of a monstrosity being built to replace the roof.

Also, the design competition will normally be held in November or December.

Careful! The 18 Brumaire is coming up soon enough. ‘Twould be a shame if something happened again.

The Senate is right. I hope Macron doesn't ruin this valuable piece of French heritage.

Macron's special representative for the ''reconstruction'' of Notre Dame told the chief architect of Notre Dame to ''shut up'' at a Senate culture committee hearing due to his views on Notre Dame's spire. Macron's representative, Jean-Louis Georgelin, wants a modern spire built while Philippe Villeneuve, the chief architect, wants the spire rebuilt the way it was before the fire and said that if a modern spire is to be built, then a different architect will have to do it.

The Senate culture committee has implied that Georgelin should be removed from the project while the Minister of Culture Franck Riester criticized him as well.

https://www.lemonde.fr/culture/article/2019/11/15/tolle-politique-apres-le-derapage-du-representant-de-macron-sur-la-reconstruction-de-notre-dame-de-paris_6019233_3246.html

Un-f**king-believable

Yeah the current government clearly has no respect for anyone that even slightly disagrees with them

From the treatment of some of their allies, I thnk that's more accurate.

The really bizarre part is that it is the hired architect who is talking sense, while the other people insist on the viability of making monuments to themselves.

Marcon probably wants to outdone Napoleon III in leaving his "imprint" on Paris. However Napoleon/Hausmann renovation of Paris actually made sense.

For those of us whose French is limited, is Macron still trying to rebuild the cathedral as the Temple of the Supreme Being (with the Supreme Being presumably being Macron himself)?

Does he know what happened to the last guy in France who tried to promote the cult of the Supreme Being?

Probably not, he was too busy with his French classes.

Just the spire. Which, as the architect has pointed out, is structurally important not a mere decoration...

Ok the organization that will be dealing with Notre Dame's restoration has been officially created and the guy from the previous story I posted here will be it's president...

The decision on what to do with the spire should be made at the beginning of 2021.

The government also still insists on finishing the work in 5 years.

That being said, the stabilization of the building won't be finished for another year.

https://www.la-croix.com/amp/1201063759

Tbh with what I said about the decision on the spire, I think it will be a modern one.

Macron has been very adamant on that and his choice of leader of this organization I think proves he won't budge.

How long did the original building take to construct?

1163-1330: 167 years (which was actually pretty quick for a medieval cathedral, although I believe if the funds were there a cathedral could generally be built in 40 years or so, and there are some examples of quickly built cathedrals like that, say Salisbury or Chartres iirc).

At any rate 5 seems to really be rushing it to me. I'd imagine 10-20 would probably be more realistic if you want the building to stay in good shape long term.

Viollet-le-Duc's restoration took twenty years. Of course that is including lengthy periods in which there was no work because the money had run out.

As of now, the scaffolding that was in place when the fire erupted, is being taken down this month.

The scaffolding is considered to be the biggest risk to the cathedral's stability. The dismantling of the scaffolding is supposed to be complete by the end of the month I believe.

Also, Parvis Notre Dame (the square in front of Notre Dame) is supposed to be reopened at the end of the month.

The archeological museum below the square is also supposed to reopen then.

.

http://www.leparisien.fr/paris-75/le-parvis-de-notre-dame-ouvre-a-15-heures-31-05-2020-8327127.php

Parvis Notre Dame, the square in front of the Cathedral, reopened today after having been closed for over a year.

It was originally supposed to reopen at the end of March but the reopening got delayed due to the quarantine.

I went to see Parvis Notre Dame yesterday evening and it was actually looking OK. The area around Notre Dame is a lot less depressing now with the square reopened.

I'd post a photo I took of the square now, but I can't figure out how to upload my photos onto here from my phone.

Post it on discord and use that image link.

Upload the photo on Imgur and post it here via link :)

Culture minister: a "broad consensus" to rebuild the spine identically.

https://www.lemonde.fr/incendie-de-notre-dame/article/2020/07/09/notre-dame-un-large-consensus-se-degage-pour-une-reconstruction-de-la-fleche-a-l-identique_6045695_5450561.html

Thank goodness.

https://actu.orange.fr/france/notre-dame-de-paris-emmanuel-macron-renonce-a-son-idee-de-geste-architectural-contemporain-magic-CNT000001ruJKR.html

Emmanuel Macron has finally decided to restore Notre Dame identically to the way it was before and not build a modern spire. The roof and spire will be rebuilt according to Viollet-le-Duc's plans (the architect of the roof and spire destroyed during the fire last year). The roof and spire will be rebuilt identically.

The scaffolding will be taken down by the end of September and the rebuilding is still planned to be completed in 2024.

The chief architect stated rebuilding the roof and spire identically would be quicker than building a new, modern spire, which probably factored into the President's decision.

I honestly also suspect part of the reason he renounced the modern design plan for Notre Dame is because he knows at this point his base are former UMP/LR voters, and they generally didn't like the idea.

He wasn't going to burn political capital over it. Tbh it wasn't really popular with anyone except for the "PS" wing of LREM really.

The vast majority of people I know wanted the roof and spire rebuilt identically and that was surely the case for the French overall and I think Macron finally got that.

You need to know which fights are worth fighting and which ones aren't, and this wasn't one that was worth fighting in his case, given overall people wanted it rebuilt like the original.

I'm still shocked that he ever wanted to fight that fight in the first place. That was such a frivolous bullsh*t idea. Then again this is a guy who thinks he's Jupiter.

Well, at any rate his decision to go with identical reconstruction of the roof and spire of Notre Dame is great news

Agreed.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.lci.fr/amp/police/un-feu-important-en-cours-dans-la-cathedrale-de-nantes-2159581.html

Major fire in Nantes Cathedral

That's horrible. Thankfully the building itself is sound, but the organ and several stained glass windows are gone.

And apparently it's suspected to be intentional. They'd better catch who did this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzPVCeJbhug

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P5JDfelKPc

A progress update on Notre Dame from ABC News

https://www.archdaily.com/966058/notre-dame-update-restoration-work-advances-and-us-students-rebuild-one-of-its-roof-trusses-using-medieval-techniques (https://www.archdaily.com/966058/notre-dame-update-restoration-work-advances-and-us-students-rebuild-one-of-its-roof-trusses-using-medieval-techniques)

The "safety" phase of the Notre Dame restoration project is winding down and the real restoration work is supposed to start later this year, and reconstruction of the roof and spire is supposed to start next year.

The goal is still to have the building reopened for the 2024 Olympics.

https://www.euronews.com/2022/09/17/notre-dame-restoration-work-goes-on-display (https://www.euronews.com/2022/09/17/notre-dame-restoration-work-goes-on-display)

Rebuilding of Notre Dame's spire and roof has started. The spire is scheduled to be finished in mid-2023 and the cathedral is due to reopen on December 8th 2024 as of now.

Probably time to update the title :D

Or close this thread and start a brand new one, starting with Lechasseur's post above?