Talk Elections

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-politics-extradition/huge-hong-kong-protest-expected-in-last-push-to-scrap-extradition-bill-idUSKCN1T9097
The Extradition bill would be killing off democracy far earlier than the official reintegration date, 2046 or so. I hope for the best that things change for the best of all Hong Kongers, the insane censorship should not stifle what is the great experiment in that little abode.

More Information on what the bill specifically entails (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-politics-extradition/why-hong-kongs-extradition-law-changes-are-fueling-fears-idUSKCN1T70OA)

More the 1 million turned out to protest (according to organizers), way more then expected and more then double  those that protested against the national security legislation 2002.
Like the national security bill 2002, it seems to me as very sensible piece of legislation that has many safeguards that are barely mentioned in the media, such as:
-local independent judges will hear any case before extradition can take place
-noone can be extradited for political or religious offences
-noone can be extradited if they can face the death penalty

But rather it seems that the demonisation of this bill is focused solely on the issue that it is china and not its content, which is to ensure that violent criminals from the mainland cannot flee to HK to escape justice.

The issue becomes apparent when people are arrested for “inciting violence and separatist ideas” or some other euphemism. This could work against many who don’t want to be tried in the mainland by local judges pressured to hand them over by an ever-flexing, uncompromising central government. I’d say the protesters have some merit of fear for such a transitory legislation.

Exactly this. Just look at China's well-documented abuse of the Interpol red notice system against political dissidents. (https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/09/25/interpol-address-chinas-red-notice-abuses#)  It's clear that they'll use whatever charges they can to get their opponents sent to the mainland.

Hong Kong cannot be "reintegrated" into China because Hong Kong was founded by Britain. Hong Kong's liberal traditions are not an "experiment" - they are transplanted British values. The abomination known as "one country, two systems" is the experiment.

It also seems you have no idea what abode means.

Decades ago, there was a common saying, "Big Shanghai, Little Hong Kong." Now Hong Kong is an even more important city than Shanghai. The Mainland should be learning from Hong Kong's success and emulating it, not trying to make Hong Kong more like itself.

Sadly, Shanghai has already re-eclipsed Hong Kong.

The Extradition Bill has been put on indefinite hold (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-extradition/bowing-to-pressure-hong-kong-leader-suspends-extradition-bill-idUSKCN1TG01Z)

Swings and justice and whatnot.

Fantastic news!

Methinks the real reason the government backed off was because the Communist Party bigwigs use HK as a conduit to stash their gains. Xi Jinping's niece owns a luxury villa in one of its most luxurious areas, and any damage to the city's reputation as a global financial hub would damage their own portfolio. So it wasn't because they had a change of heart, they were merely protecting their own investments.

In the end big capital blinked.  The Pro-CCP bloc in HK is a coalition of the old pro-CCP trade unions/associations, Chinese ultra-nationalists  like myself, and big capital.  Unlike 2014 umbrella protests where this coalition held together and saw off of the protests this time around big capital is not playing ball on the premise the ROI of such a move does not justify the protests it provoked.  Carrie Lam might have to go not to please the protesters but big capital.  The pro-CCP bloc in HK pretty much want to get this behind them so the can minimize the fallout into the 2019 fall district council elections.  If Carrie Lam have to fall on the sword for this to take this then so be it from the pro-CCP alliance point of view.

One can hope the protesters will one day place your ilk to the dustbins of history.

Big capital lining up behind a communist party is one of the largest jokes of the 21st century. 

fat cats of all stripes should go to the gulag tbh

Last Week - Pompeo Urges China to ‘Do the Right Thing’ in Hong Kong Protests (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-25/pompeo-urges-china-to-do-the-right-thing-in-hong-kong-protests)

Today - https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1157025123511283712

Glad to see that the Chinese government seems to want to avoid any reprise of the Tiananmen Square Massacre in Hong Kong. 

Liberate Hong Kong!

Just a matter of time until Mainland China invades the city, buses the demonstrators to concentration camps where they will join the Uygurs and then re-educate them to become proper brainwashed Chinese citizens ...

The British should have given Hong Kong it's independence instead of handing it over to China.

I legitimately can't tell if Trump is trying to take credit for the protests here, or denying involvement because he supports the repression of the protests.

https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1161324294800121857

Ummm....

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1161325870516264961

Wait...what? This leaves me with so many questions. Did he just reveal secret/classified information on Twitter (I know a Chinese state media newspaper already reported this, so maybe not?)? Why would people stay calm if troops are moving to the border? Why is he tweeting about this in a manner that does not mean really anything (pledging support for the protesters, saying there will be consequences for military intervention, etc.)? Is he just trying to get attention for himself?

Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Macao should form their own prosperous, democratic country.

It is indeed not classified information, it has been spread by the official chinese media (http://) already. Most likely the Beijing leadership is only trying to show strength, and trying to intimidate protesters, similar to the drills near Taiwan 1996. Chinese Troops are already stationed in HK since the handover, and they would simply use the Garrison there if they wanted to intervene. People are overreacting to this, they are not going to do another Tiannamen Square here. It is show, the Chinese government do this often.

Makes a lot of sense. Also keep in mind that if a show of force scares people away, it'll mostly be scaring away the most moderate/calm-headed people, and it'll mean the protests will be a smaller, more hardcore group of people who might be prone to causing acts of violence that can be easily broadcasted all over state media, further justifying to the public a harsher crackdown (which will only continue the cycle).

Trump is doing the bidding of the Chinese government.  Trying to intimidate the protestors.

PRC would just have invaded.

The body count would have been immense and I cannot even imagine how bad the international fallout for the British would have been.

It is clear that during the airport shutdowns the protesters went to far as their actions was pretty much racketeering. Even factions of the mostly leaderless protesters  realized this  and started to apologize for their actions and not risk losing the popular support they do have.

Of course the core of the issue is the the popular support for these protesters are not about abstract ideas like "democracy" or "autonomy".  I agree that the protesters themselves genuinely believe in those ideals but the popular support they have, which might now start to ebb, could not give a hoot about these ideals.  The root issue is the surge in housing prices are pushing a good part of the youth and even now middle age population out of a solid middle class lifestyle. 

The segment of the population that are frustrated about this and is the core support base for the protesters direct their anger at the CCP.  To some extend they are right.  The HK government very conservative approach of zoning limits the amount of land at any point in time to be available for development for residential and commercial building.  While this pre-dates 1997 the fact is that landed big capital which is part of the the current pro-CCP bloc in HK (Chinese ultra-nationalists like myself, big capital, and pro-CCP trade unions) exerts a large influence on HK government policy to keep land prices high.  The CCP already have to manage a unwieldy and unstable Establishment bloc (the Chinese ultra-nationalists Right like myself have links to the KMT and were enemies of the pro-CCP trade unions until the 1990s) so the interests of big capital has to be accommodated creating the current situation.

To some extent the CCP is trapped.  The need HK big capital to maintain their indirect rule in HK and to throw them under the bus might not attract more supporters only serve to blow up your own coalition.  The CCP situation is similar to what the KMT experienced in their Civil War with the CCP in Northern Rural China.  One of the many reasons why we ROC were defeated by the CCP bandits where they they won the issue of land reform, especially in places like Shandong which ROC armed forces and PLA traded positions repeatedly.    When the PLA took over a county, they would drive out land owners and redistribute the land to peasants.  When the ROC armed forces retook the county the landowners who were part of the KMT coalition expected their land to be returned.  The KMT knew doing this would alienate the landless peasants but the landowner base was powerful linked to the KMT at the hip and KMT betraying them would disrupt the KMT power structure and it was not clear if the KMT would actually win enough peasant support to replace the loss of such a power structure.    Ironically the KMT rule on Taiwan Province which was occupied by Japan until 1945 land reform was easier since the KMT had no links to the local landed interest.   Some Taiwan Province land owners after land reform because urban based small to medium capital and backed the KMT while other stayed on the land and continued their opposition to the KMT and became one of the pillars of the Taiwan Right Independence.   The CCP is now in a similar situation as the KMT in 1947 Shandong Province.

Ironically the protests will most likely create such an economic disruption to create an economic recession in HK which would serve to lower land prices and indirectly give some short term relief to the core issue of high land prices.

ROC pro-Green pollster 品觀點 (Pinview) also shows an ebb in more support for the HK protesters after the airport protests and confrontation.

Question: Should the government (ROC government) take action to further support the HK protesters.
Yes/No 40.9/43.1
()

 

Declaration of the Establishment of the Provisional Government of Hong Kong (https://telegra.ph/Declaration-of-the-Establishment-of-the-Provisional-Government-of-Hong-Kong-10-04)

This was HK yesterday after the Government passed a anti-mask law by means of the emergency ordinance, a colonial-era martial law legislation.

It seems increasingly difficult to argue that the description "rioters" used by the Chinese Government does not perhaps hold some merit. The protesters have radicalized beyond the point of no return. There is a very legitimate debate to be had on who is responsible for radicalizing them, but this violence... in response to something that is law in most major democracies? They are just discrediting themselves in the eyes of the HK public and internationally. Playing right into Xi Jinpings hands.

Just to be clear.  On ROC after a series of protest against pension reform back in 2016-2017 laws were also passed banning facial masks during protests.  I guess the difference is that in HK it was an executive ordinance and on ROC it was passed with in the legislature.  I suspect the protesters will no more accept this if LEGCO passed this law as oppose to an executive ordinance.

For me the protesters lost any sympathy from me when they commemorated 911 but did nothing for 918 a few days later (The 1931/9/18 Mukden Incident which is really the start of Sino-Japanese war.)  I have no problems with the protesters being against CCP as I have my own beef with the CCP.  But they refused to commemorate an even from the pro-PRC era but commemorate an event from USA they are just saying they are just not politically Chinese but not culturally Chinese.   

Fly the ROC flag from the Legislative Council Complex please.

Sounds good to me.  At least that is better than flying the UK or USA flag.  HK is Chinese territory after all.  If you do not like PRC, fine, but don't turn into Quislings or separatists in your fight against the PRC. 

I think we can all agree that whatever Jaichind thinks is for the best of the situation is, in fact, the complete opposite. So go CCP, eff the carpetbagging Mainlanders I guess?

The USA and Old Hong Kong flags are not (at least in my views) are supposed to be literal support for imperialism or foreign intervention. It's more about symbols of rebellion against the political establishment.

But yes, in my ideal world, Hong Kong is merely a city in the reconstituted, democratic, constitutional, federative, Republic of China.

Agreed.  But from a PR point of view using the USA and UK flags  is a disaster from the point of view of getting support of the Mainland population on their side.

Whereas Taiwan is so much more popular in mainland China?

Fair enough.

Well, while it's unlikely to be perceived as such, it is truly the flag of the Republic of China. The Republic brought into being in large part by the brilliant mind of Sun Yat Sen, who is still widely revered in the mainland. The CCP officially recognizes him, but in reality, they fear his ghost.

Interesting article on said ghost.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/03/08/the-chinese-communist-party-is-still-afraid-of-sun-yat-sens-shadow/

Of course.  The general assessment of the Mainland ROC (pre-1949) era is getting fairly positive these days and for sure the ROC flag will be viewed as a legitimately Chinese flag.  

For example back in 2010 PRC and ROC activists joined forces to plant the ROC and PRC flags on the disputed Diaoyutai Islands (釣魚台群島) (what we Chinese call it)/Senkaku (尖閣諸島) (what the Japanese calls it) as a way of asserting Chinese sovereignty over the disputed islands.

()

Beyond the Islands dispute...


One of those flags is the flag of the legitimate democratic government and one is of a crooked and murderous cabal....

(whistles and walks away)

Hong Kong protests: President Winne the Pooh warns of 'crushed bodies' (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50035229)

Does anyone know if spleen tastes like honey?

If so it might make the cartoon I'm linking understandable as humor, tho there's no mistaking the commentary.

http://www.sandraandwoo.com/2019/10/11/1122-masters-and-slaves/
 (http://www.sandraandwoo.com/2019/10/11/1122-masters-and-slaves/)

I think the message is a bit more subtle then that.  The terminology Xi used was an ancient Chinese idiom that has it origins in the Three Kingdoms Period (220-280) 粉身碎骨 which literally translated means "Body smashed into dust and bones shattered."  

The way this idiom is used is not in the literal sense but to convey that one is ready to sacrifice all for a likely worthy cause despite most likely impossible odds.  Uses of this idiom would be "For my belief I am willing to endure 粉身碎骨" or From a Chinese Buddhist  text of the Sung Dynasty "The way of the Buddha is to be willing to endure 粉身碎骨 for the greater truth"
()

 
What Xi mean to convey is the hopelessness of any separatist movements.  My objection to Xi's use of words is from the opposite side which is the use  粉身碎骨 tends to imply a honorable even if hopeless goal.  Why Xi is assigning such high moral virtue of what I (and I assume Xi) consider treason I do not know and I object to.  I think Xi is better of using 必敗無疑 or "Certain to meet defeat" which as a Chinese idiom implies a neutral or even negative connotation of the underlying cause.  

For me the issue is that Pooh is calling himself "President" of China and giving "official" "statements."

Now they are pleading for American intervention:

Tens of thousands of Hong Kong protesters plead for U.S. help (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/tens-of-thousands-of-hong-kong-protesters-plead-for-us-help/ar-AAIKSmW?ocid=spartanntp)

China now treatens retaliation if congress passes bills in support of protesters:

Newsweek: China Vows to Retaliate Against U.S. for Supporting Hong Kong Human Rights, Condemns Congress' 'Shocking Hypocrisy' (https://www.newsweek.com/china-vows-retaliate-against-u-s-supporting-hong-kong-human-rights-bill-congress-1465594)