Talk Elections

I thought this was interesting. I'm too tired to make an elaborate comment on this right now. But this doesn't surprise me at all....so...maybe that's why I have no  comment on this at this time.


Read this:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/01/08/sprj.nirq.wmd.report/index.html

This is not surprising at all.

i agree with beat

still looking and jury is still out.  If WMDs are found, game over for election though.

Plenty of countries have WMD. Look at Libya. That doesnt justify invasion.

Not saying it did either, but what would you say would justify the war?  That is the dem chief argument nowadays.

Plus it would just take it off the table like Saddam and would be big PR wise.

Nothing justifies the invasion of another sovereign country except for special humanitarian concerns. I dont think Bush went to war for humanitarian concerns no matter how they try to spin it now. He didn't care about the Iraqi people and still doesnt insofar as it doesnt affect his imperial designs.


That is true, but it really shouldn't given that the administration already admitted months ago that WMD may never be found, and that they don't really care.

Well the Iraq war still is very popular among the people and WMDs while not needed would still be a boost.  That is what I was trying to convey, just like getting OBL- I think if either one happens it will almost be game over.

Well Iraq was sponsering terrorism and not complying with the resolutions it agreed to comply with to end the first gulf war.  So one could argue strongly that the war was justified on those grounds alone, among many others.

Actually Saddam never ordered the execution of hundreds of innocent Americans like Moammar Qaddahfi. The worst terrorist threats come from the Arabian penninsula and Pakistan, but Bush gives them billions of dollars in taxpayer money every year. Also Israel has been in noncompliance with a lot more resolutions than Iraq. They also get billions of dollars in taxpayer money.

The problem is not that, but the fact that a rather specific reason was given for the war, and the fact that other reasons existed and have been repeated a number of times since then doesn't change that.

I agree with jravnsbro, if there is WMD found its game for the dems.... personally i think its over before it started anway especially witht he unelectable dean was the nominee

Dean is not the nominee for the DEMS. If he is the nominee already, when did the primary cycle end? I must have missed mine completely. But, I know they haven't even begun. So, how is Dean the Nominee? I do think that if President Clinton comes out to endorse Wesley Clark, it is over for the Dean Juggernaut and Bush's re-election bid. However, both Clintons have stated that they will support whoever becomes the Nominee, they will support him, but they will not come out with any pre-convention endorsement. However, the former President may change his mind and come out for Clark to endorse a fellow Little Rockian.

Okay so maybe you are right in the fact that Bush did not go to war for humanitarian reasons but that justifies invasion in most eyes of liberals and the invasion was the greatest relief for humanitarian conditions since WWII.

Personally, I think that the justification now given for the invasion, the establishment of a democratic state that would serve as a political alternative to religious tyranny in the Arab world, was the plan all along - this is what Bush really meant by a policy of "regime change".

However, because unilateralism was too politically unpopular here at home, the WMD argument had to be exaggerated.

The truth is, this deception only matters to the 20-30% of the population for whom throwing out the Republicans is a bigger priority than forming a realistic post 9/11 foreign policy.

Fred Barnes said last night Bush made a speech before the war about bringing democracy to the region.  That was a justification before the war.

attn EUROPEANS:

last night some belgium paper said they had reports and were writing a story ina  newspaper there that the WMDS had been sent out of Iraq and are being stored in Syria, heard anything about this?

Europe is not really a unit. I know as much about Belgian papers as I know about Syrian ones, that is to say, nothing. Sorry.  

worth a shot, since we have 4-5 people in here from Europe.

I don't think retroactive issues like 'justifications' for the war matter much in the election.  What matters is public perception of whether we're winning, casualties, and extrication.

Yes, that's right. Sadly, perception is all that matters... :(

True.

What is interesting to note is the public perception of what "casualties" truly represent.  Most reporters only count the total # dead (about 500).  What is ignored is the # that have needed to be evacuated due to major injury (that #, according to NPR and the US Military, is 9000).

Whether its 500 or 9,000, its still a very low number by historical standards.  Of course the public's willingness to commit to sacrifices is also at a historical low no doubt.

And the increasing unwillingness to sacrifice for the good of the country is being fueled by Americans being told that we can have both a massive war against terrorism globally and huge tax cuts, and oh yeah, we won't have to cut government spending on anything else either. And you can keep driving your gas-guzzling SUVs to the shopping mall too...that doesn't increase our dependence on oil from the Middle East or anything.
Where are the leaders who stand up and tell us the truth, that we all have to sacrifice for the good of the country? Let's elect a President who will be honest and straightforward with us about what is required on our part to combat terrorism. With this administration, it is truly ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you.

Nothing is required of the average American in the war against terrorism except to vote to re-elect GWBush.  If we have to give up SUVs and other integral aspects of what it is to be American, then what the devil are we fighting for?

What does SUV stand for and why is it an integral part of being American?

I thought it was about democray, freedom and other trivial things, but what do I know about being American...

It's not the SUV that is integral, it is the ability to choose whatever we want to drive.  I think the idea was that we shouldn't have to give up that freedom.  Of course, as an American, I do have to say that we really love big cars.

SUV = Sport Utility Vehicle, a vehicle that operates as a cross between the comforts and space of a large car and the utility and capacity of a truck.   Now you have XUVs that convert between an SUV and a truck.

SUV=Stupid, Useless, Vehicle ;)

There was a report I saw on CNN today about the Danish army stumbling acorss about 120 mortar shells with possible chemical weapons inside of them. There was a statement about it from CentCom but nothing from the White House. This is big for Bush in reelection issues.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/01/10/sprj.irq.chemicals/index.html

Don't bring that up again. The Danes doing something helpful in Iraq is a ridiculous idea. :)

Now it's my turn to be obtuse.   Do you have something against the Danes?

I think this is an issue that's a boost for Bush if we uncover something, but it's not a negative if we don't. Polls show that voters just don't care-- at least not enough to vote against Bush because of it.  They also think that Saddam was behind 9/11, so there's no accounting for the public's education on public policy I guess.

I'd agree that the WMD seems to have simmered down considerably, and I doubt anything else is going to come out of it, unless it HELPS Bush in some way.

The issue of whether there was WMDs will be brought back up again for a short time during the next state of the union, when the media starts talking about the africa/uranium comment of last year's SOU, which will prompt discussion on WMDs, etc, and it'll go away again with the NH primary. Of course, the Democratic nominee will bring it up during the general election, but I don't think it'll have that much impact, unfortunatley.

Well even if they are not a huge cache of WMDs found by the Danes, it is still good they were found and removed.  Even if they are old they need to be destroyed instead of falling into the wrong hands.  Positive find.

Speaking of the SOU, I heard that Wes Clark will hold a town hall broadcast of the SOU speech. I don't know if he'll be giving a play-by-play or wait until the speech is over and then talk. It should be an interesting exercise.

They tried to conquer us for centuries and is the country we have fought the most wars with, lol. You might not know the background, but Denmark entered the war in Iraq by sending a submarine to the Gulf. Now, most Swedes were schocked to hear that the Danes actually HAD an army at all, not to mention a submarine. And then sending a submarine to a desert war, well it just looked funny. So it became a joke in Sweden, and if they actually accomplished something, it would ruin the joke.

I am not really being that serious, you know, I wish we had been on the same side as the Danes... ;)

Beware the Danes are coming! Gustaf, wait until they invade ya :) :) :)

They gave us the danish. How can a food so good come from a country so bad? I rest my case. The Danes are our friends for life. So let it be written, so let it be done.

Bring it on! We have beaten them before, we will do so again... ;) :)

Hm, Belgium gave you the French Fries, remember? Danish sure isn't called that in Swedish, and we ought to know...Denmark isn't that bad, they're nice people who drink a lot and make deep movies with shaky cameras. They also block EU-centralization every now and then, for which I am very thankful. But they've never been good at wars, that's more our field really, or was anyway.

A senior Syrian journalist reports Iraq’s WMD located in three Syrian sites.

Special report by DEBKAfile

January 8, 2004, 8:57 PM (GMT+02:00)

 
 
 
 
Nizar Najoef, a Syrian journalist who recently defected from Syria to Western Europe and is known for bravely challenging the Syrian regime, said in a letter Monday, January 5, to Dutch newspaper “De Telegraaf,” that he knows the three sites where Iraq’s WMD are kept. The storage places are:

1. Tunnels dug under the town of al-Baida near the city of Hama in northern Syria. These tunnels are an integral part of an underground factory, built by the North Koreans, for producing Syrian Scud missiles. Iraqi chemical weapons and long-range missiles are stored in these tunnels.

2. The village of Tal Snan, north of the town of Salamija, where there is a big Syrian airforce camp. Vital parts of Iraq’s WMD are stored there.

3. The city of Sjinsjar on the Syrian border with the Lebanon, south of the city Homs.

Najoef writes that the transfer of Iraqi WMD to Syria was organized by the commanders of Saddam Hussein’s Special Republican Guard, including General Shalish, with the help of Assif Shoakat , Bashar NixonNow’s cousin. Shoakat is the CEO of Bhaha, an import/export company owned by the NixonNow family.

In February 2003, a month before America’s invasion in Iraq, DEBKAfile and DEBKA-Net-Weekly were the only media to report the movement of Iraqi WMD, the efforts to bring them from Iraq to Syria, and the personal involvement of Bashar NixonNow and his family in the operation.

Najoef, who has won prizes for journalistic integrity, says he wrote his letter because he has terminal cancer.

yes this is what I heard the other day.  What is the source for this, do you have a link to it?