Talk Elections

Over the 4th of July weekend, as I was hanging an American flag out of my bedroom window, which is on the house's facade, I looked around my San Francisco neighborhood for an American flag. I was only able to find one, and that was by a recently immigrated Catholic Chinese couple across the street, who were very happy to live in this country and anticipated putting up the American flag, and hung it with excitement. However, nobody on my street which has about 42 homes had a single visiable flag. As we passed through the city, I was only able to find two American flags. Whenever I saw an American flag, I was astonished and told a family member or friend when I got back home.

As you all know, I'm going to be leaving to Minneapolis and New York tommorrow, so I went to Wal-Mart to get some supplies. The closest Wal-Mart is in Alameda county, which although is a liberal county, is much more conservative than San Francisco. As we passed through Pleasenton, which is a pretty conservative town, we saw flags everywhere. They wern't nessecarily on every door, but they were certainly much more than in San Francisco- at least one for every five or six homes. I'm sure that in the entire city of San Francisco only a few hundred homes had flags, and the only people who did were Asian immigrants, especially the Vietnamese and Koreans.

Now, traditionally on the 4th of July you hang out your American flag. This is not a 9-11 type thing (interestingly enough, nobody hung their American flags that day either), this is not a Iraqi-war supporting this. This shows that you are an American. You really must be ignorant or lazy not to put out your American flag.

Why is the left so hostile towards the American flag? Are they unpatriotic?

Believe it or not, but their are other ways to be patriotic then fltin the flag and pledging allegiance to it.

Come to Australia. On Australia Day.

You on't see a flag. Why? Because we don't need them to feel patriotic, and neither do the liberals of SanFran.

Get off your high horse and celebrate your nation's most important day, just asthe SanFran liberals were-with joy and patriotism-in a real and deep way, not an overt and audacious way.

BTW, in the last sentence of the third paragraph, you say:

"You realy must be ignorant or lazy not to put out your american flag."

This presumes two falsities:

1) That everyone hs an american flag
2) That people who don't put out their flag are ignorant, lazy or, as you said earlier, unpatriotic.

Before you start flaming, consider your arguments a bit more carefully.

Hugh,

Firstly, I was asking a question, NOT flaming. Secondly, Australians don't wave flags because that's not their tradition. It's very much an American tradition to hold your flags out. Everyone used to do it up till Mascone was mayor of San Francisco and Harvy Milk his supervisor. Not even buisnesses hold out flags. Further, as I've stated, during 9/11 very few took out their flags.

Flags are cheap- that shouldn't be an issue. If they bother to buy anti-war signs they should have enough time and money to buy flags, which are constantly on sale at so many stores.

By expressing their politcs they have participated in the freedom of this nation, so how could liberals be unpatriotic?

I would say that MOST liberals are NOT unpatriotic. However, there is absolutely no question that FAR MORE liberals are unpatriotic than conservatives or moderates. Also, liberals are far more likely to be disdainful of the very concept of patriotism.

Apparantly, I'm not patriotic because, even though I have the money, I have not bought a flag.

Hmm.

Patriotism, when overt and audacious, can become ugly.

Not always, but sometimes. Maybe tyou remember that thread about the aussie woman in Florida who went to put out an aussie flag because all the neighbours had american flags and they wouldn't let her?

Liberals may be more likely to be unpatriotic, but conservatives are more likely to be jingoistic and audacious in patriotsm. Not every conservative, but more then the liberals.

All the neighbors did not have american flags. The issue was a zoning rule, plain and simple.

My mother is a liberal, and she puts out a flag. I agree with the sentiment that patriotism is good, but too much patriotism can lead to bad things. After all, during WWII the Germans and the Japanese were all extremely patriotic, and look at the crimes commited in the names of those countries. Patriotism has to be earned.

Not to mention the Japanese-Americans and German-Americans, many of whom were patriotic, who were rounded up and sent to 'camps'.

They did that out of concern for national security. We are getting to the point where it's not unwarranted now.

I disagree. The Germans were evil, and practically admitted it. The Japanese less so, but their tactics were quite evil. I wouldn't say patriotism had anything to do with it.

No, the Nazis were evil. The Germans, meaning the citizens, were manipulated by those evil people. Anyone can be manipulated to do evil, you and me included(you'd be surprised how easy it is if you know how, look up the experiments of Stanley Milgram, a bit of authority can go a long way in getting people to do what you want). Germany was recovering from an extreme economic depression, and the Nazis were helping get the country out of said depression(Before the war, Hitler was named Man of the Year by Time). They encouraged patriotism and pride in Germany. In other words, it was the perfect conditions to encourage blind obedience in the masses.

The Japanese - they believed their emporer was a living God and that they could gain great honor for their families by dying in battle for their emperor and their country. That's how great their patriotism was. Think of them as the suicide bombers of the day, who blindly follow terrorist leaders who claim to follow the word of Allah(who, to them, is the ultimate authority).

The Japanese were not less evil. the were just a one-race state.

What they did when the came across other races was just as evil as the Germans.

Btw, internment of the japanese was not necessary.  J Edgar Hoover, no civil libertarian, opposed the move because he basically knew who most of the spies were anyway.

And no, liberals are not inherently unpatriotic.  Some liberals are, though.

I'm a very patriotic liberal. So clearly, I say no. :)

This is esecially true of a city as outrageously affluent as San Fran.  There where plenty of flags out in the poor rural area that I come from.

I think some city halls even offer them for free.

I suppose the question has to be asked: what does patriotism mean to you?  Miriam Webster online (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=Patriotism) defines it as "love for or devotion to one's country".  Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism)  has a somewhat longer definition, which also includes selflessness, along with some philosophical musings and quotes on Patriotism.

One thing I do believe quite strongly, blind loyalty to a political party is very different than patriotism.  Yet people who perpetuate this sort of nonsense will use arguements along such lines (Politicians from opposing parties are sometimes even viewed as traitors for simply having a different view, while those in agreement are labled 'patriots').

As to the flag - I wish more liberals would have the guts to stand up and show the colors of pride - after all it is not the flag of the Republican party, but the flag of the United States of America - and when certain individuals come out and claim that disagreeing with them is somehow unpatriotic, it is those people who are acting against the great ideals that our great nation is founded on.

So I beleive that true patriotism is standing up for the great ideals that our nation stands for - The right for people to speak their opinion no matter how unpopular. The right for people to worship God in their own way, or not at all.  The right for people to defend themselves.  The right for people to be secure in their homes, and not to be forced to quarter soldiers in peacetime.  The rights of those opposed of a crime to be given due process.  The enforcement of checks and ballances which is designed to prevent power grabs from people who might not have the people's best interests at heart.

I love America.  We are a nation founded on the principle that the common man is smart enough to make reasonable decisions as to our leadership - and that said leaders should answer to the people for their actions.

Flag waving is great.  But it in itself is not patriotism, merely an outward symbol of it.

Famed (or infamous depending on your view) liberal Michael Moore (http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/mikeinthenews/index.php?id=61) has his own take on loving America.  It is, at the least, an interesting read.

http://www.uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?board=14;action=display;threadid=5527;start=15

Michael Moore doesn't love America.  Scroll down to the movie review near the bottom of the page.  Its in three parts.

I'm gonna be red, white and bluer then you.
I'm gonna be the proud and the fewer than you.
The most star-spangledest you ever knew.
I'm the most Americanest ( Americanist ).
When we become afraid,
will we admit to the role we play in these darkened days ?
The folly of all world leaders, the blessed and the damned, bottom-feeders.
Apathetic, untill the things we've ignored come knocking at our door.
I'm gonna snatch you right out of that ing comfort zone.
Because the things you've ignored don't wana be ignored no more.
Wear your flag like a badge, like it matters.
You just happened to be born here.

As Friends Rust - The Most Americanest

These lyrics, especially the first four lines, basically sum up why I don't consider myself patriotic. In this country, the line between patriotism and nationalism has become too blured, and like the first lines say, too many people like to show off by putting as many flags and "God Bless America" bumper stickers on their car as possible. But in the end does that really prove anything? This strikes as trying to prove that you are more patriotic than the guy without those flags and bumper stickers on his car. This culture of jingoinism has gone too far, and it is blinding our nation.

I'll admit to having a lot of REGIONAL pride. You all know how I feel about Minnesota. But that doesn't mean that I think the state is perfect, or that Norm Coleman isn't a worthless heaping sack of sh*t. Just that I like the state. And I can't really feel a connection to a country as large as the US, which is another reason. But if Minnesota was an independent nation, there would be no Minnesota flag on my car. I have nothing to prove. I won't show off any sort of pride for the same reason I won't brag about the number of girls I've bedded or all the rare, out of print stuff in my music collection.

Believe it or not, you should try to learn a little more about American traditions before you start comparing them to Australia.  There was a valid point being made here.

Not everyone decides not to fly the flag because of philosophical reasons. I don't fly one because I'm afraid it would clash with the exterior color scheme of my house, not to mention the garish contrast between the red and blue and the soft green of the foliage.

Depends on the defintion of patriotism.

Alameda county is one of the most liberal counties in the country. I live in a pretty liberal county as well, and there have been flags on 100% of the houses since last week. It's very consistent. I agree with James... one of the most important achievements of the nation state modelled on classical liberalism has been to extend basic rights through the definition of citizenship; the creation of a national community. Without that all we would have are family names, religion, or ethnicity to identify with. The nation-state idea has to be put in a larger developmental model. It can be a force for either utilitarian-style nationalism or classical liberalism. It is its use in the former sense that some modern liberals are suspcisious of it, but in the latter sense these same people are among its greatest defenders.

Beet,

The nation-state is BOTH a force for classical liberalism AND a force for the utilitarian-style nationalism that you seem to equate with fascism, but is really just an expression of faith in the value system of your country.

Agreed. Same with my wifes home country of new zealand. You won't see a flag unless its atop a major bridge or on top of the House of Representatives.

It matters not whether you outwardly show your patriotism or not. Its a personal choise.

For me, personally. I hang both an American and a New Zealand flag outside my home, and I ordered an american flag outside my precint. I also have one in my office. I think its unfair to say that if i didn't have a flag then I'm un-patriotic. I consider that highly offensive.

So, let me get this straight - because you disagree with his politics, he must be unpatriotic (well, I suppose that sort of logic would work in one-party states like China, but here in the good ol' US of A we like to debate the issues of the day vigorously.)

And are you only making an aside, or are you trying to imply that my whole arguement is somehow flawed because I tacked on a link to someone elses essay on the same subject at the end.

Please tell me how flying a flag demonstrates patriotism? Surely working hard, contributing to society and being a generous, thoughtful person are more important than hanging a piece of cloth out of your window. In Britain you tend to find the people who drape themselves in England flags at every oportunity are usually dimwits.  

Flying an American flag (made in China) is a gesture which makes one feel good but it really doesn't make you patriotic.

If you really want to be patriotic go donate blood and save the life of a fellow American.

I'm not a fan of flag waving, it's just a cynical gesture to somehow prove you're more patriotic than someone else. As Brambila has just demonstrated. It means absolutely nothing. As Wakie said, giving blood or an organ to save a fellow countryman is surely far more precious than waving a flag?

I once heard a remark (sorry I don't have the citation) that radicals actually love their country the most because one must deeply love their country in order to want to change it.

Yeah..or destroy it.

Of course waving the flag doesn't prove any persons patriotism because we don't know what they feel in their heart. But waving a flag certainly doesn't make one a dimwit. I fly my flag out of pride for the greatest nation in history.

As do I.

I think you`d find the same hard-left liberals in SF less likely to eat turkey dinners on Thanksgiving.  SF is sort of anti-tradition in a conformist type of way, enough to make them not hang up their flags but not enough to make them hate their country.

Long time no see Lunar!

Brambila,

I was visiting a friend in San Francisco last week and I too noticed the lack of American Flags.  I saw 10 rainbow flags for every 1 American flag I saw.  My friend said that he had had 2 flags taken down in the last couple of weeks.  He felt that the city had a anti-american mood at the moment.  

San Francisco is something else.  It's interesting to me that a city that prides itself in being liberal has perhaps the greates gap between the haves and have nots.  What liberalism really does is destroy the middle class and the small businessman.  The only business that can be run profitably in this environment are the corporations. (that the liberals love to hate) Kinda sketzophrenic (sp?).  The white folks seem to be generally socially and economically far left.  The immigrants are far more socially conservative.  The only families I saw (besides tourists) were non-white families.    

Still in Germany and typing on one of these hateful German Keyboards.  11 pm here, means about 1 pm in California.  Should be back to using a keyboard with the stuff in the right place by next Saturday.

patriatism is dumb.  because of it the goverment can read your emails, IMs,etc.  did you know that because of "patriatism" after 9/11 we affrested hundreds of middle easterns who had nothing to do with 9/11.  were could break the 5th and 6th amendments (they just sat in jail and got laughed at by the cops), but ancroft wouldnt let the fbi,cia,etc. search for there weapon history

Very good points John Engle. lol

If a draft-dodging Democrat President led us to overthrow a foreign dictator who was in no way an immediate security threat, requiring hundreds of servicemen's lives in order to rebuild the country, and his administration had ties to civilian corporations who were given multi-billion-dollar contracts to rebuild the country, and the Democrat-controlled Congress passed laws curbing 1st, 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendment rights, what do you think the reaction of America's conservatives would be?

Would they "patriotically" stand behind their president?

Or would Charlton Heston currently be leading them in a mass movement to overthrow the government?

I'm not saying Bush is as bad as all that.  It's just some food for thought.  It's easy to be "patriotic" when you agree with your leaders ideologically.  But true patriotism means standing up for what you think is best for our country.  In this way liberals are by no means unpatriotic.

well put beef

It all depends on what you mean by patriotism. If your idea of patriotism is akin to rooting for your favorite athletic club, then it might be important to you to show it to people by demanding displays of flags and pledges. In my opinion, this kind of patriotism shows immaturity and a tendency towards political hooliganism.

My idea of patriotism is a love not for some abstract idea of country but a specific hope for the well-being of the people and the land of my country and caring that my government act rightly and morally at home and abroad and an interest in supporting policies that will benefit all.

In my idea of patriotism, displays of flags and pledges are non sequitur -- they are simply irrelevant. Doing it or not doing it simply has nothing to do with patriotism. I do own a flag and on occasion I have displayed it, but it has nothing to do with when or why "tradition" dictates that I should.

As Johnson said -- appeal to patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. The person who won't shut up about patriotism is the guy who's trying to put one over on you.