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Title: English translations of the Bible
Post by: A18 on April 13, 2007, 01:51:13 PM
English Standard Version, at present. I was brought up on NIV, but the translation is rather loose, and the style a bit 'informal' for biblical prose.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Sam Spade on April 13, 2007, 01:56:14 PM
KJV.  Easily the best-written.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Bono on April 13, 2007, 01:57:55 PM
NASB and Young's Literal Translation for study, KJV for style.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: they don't love you like i love you on April 13, 2007, 02:04:58 PM
Whatever the Gideons use.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Josh/Devilman88 on April 14, 2007, 02:12:38 PM
KJV


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: A18 on April 14, 2007, 02:14:40 PM
The King James Version, in addition to being written in archaic, Jacobean language, contains some questionable material, due to its base text.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Dr. Cynic on April 14, 2007, 02:16:33 PM
I think my pap's bible was a KJV... I'm not really sure anymore... It's been awhile since I looked at it.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: KEmperor on April 14, 2007, 02:41:06 PM
The King James Version, in addition to being written in archaic, Jacobean language, contains some questionable material, due to its base text.

Glad to see you admit that the bible should be questioned.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: NewFederalist on April 14, 2007, 06:35:39 PM
Other- George Lamsa (from the original Aramaic)


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: jokerman on April 14, 2007, 07:22:21 PM
NKJV, generally


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: ?????????? on April 15, 2007, 11:47:23 AM

Yep, and pretty much the most accurate.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Richard on April 15, 2007, 02:56:14 PM
KJV.  The NIV is not a Bible.  Burn it.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Josh/Devilman88 on April 15, 2007, 05:06:44 PM
KJV.  The NIV is not a Bible.  Burn it.

:)  He said it not me :)


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on April 15, 2007, 06:50:15 PM

Best written.  Worst translation.

I use the New American Catholic Version.

If I want to go for style, I use the St. Ignatius


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Ban my account ffs! on April 15, 2007, 07:48:48 PM
New Revised Standard Edition...

I like newer translations as they tend to research the languages and meanings of the original texts and write from there.

But I don't believe that KJV is like a literal translation that should be followed like a strict law like so many conservative Christians out there.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: DWPerry on April 16, 2007, 01:56:36 AM
I use the New King James Version & LITV/KJ3


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: kashifsakhan on August 03, 2007, 06:08:18 PM
I dont read the bible. I read the Quran.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Ebowed on August 03, 2007, 06:15:15 PM
Skeptic's Annotated


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Josh/Devilman88 on August 03, 2007, 06:55:27 PM

Best written.  Worst translation.

I use the New American Catholic Version.

If I want to go for style, I use the St. Ignatius
How is the KJV the worst translation? All of the other versions are nothing but trash... The take out so many thing from the bible.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Ebowed on August 07, 2007, 03:20:26 AM
How is the KJV the worst translation? All of the other versions are nothing but trash... The take out so many thing from the bible.

Can you even understand the KJV?


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 07, 2007, 03:48:01 AM
Even if the King James Version were not a dreadfully bad translation, which is it (they changed a lot of the wording to try to shoehorn it into such a 'poetic' edition) the fact that the meanings of many words in the English language has change so much as to make interpriting it by anyone who is not familiar with these changes difficult, at best and impossible for most.

The meaning of words such as "silly", "wherefore", "censure", "wit" and many, many other words have all changed meaning since the time the KJV was first translated.

It is an all around useless translation.  I use the New American Version.  Every section was translated from the ealiest texts available into an exact translation that doesn't attempt to make the thing sound liek Shakespear.  If I really do desire something with better poetic flow, however, I use the St. Ignatius Catholic text.  It is similar to the KJV, but updated, so the words still have the same meaning as today, and the translation itself is far more faithful.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 07, 2007, 03:58:47 AM

Best written.  Worst translation.

I use the New American Catholic Version.

If I want to go for style, I use the St. Ignatius
How is the KJV the worst translation? All of the other versions are nothing but trash... The take out so many thing from the bible.

Hmmm, hadn't realized how old this topic is.  Very well, just for starters Josh, if you would, please give me the meaning of the following phrases from popular literature.

1) "Wherefore art thou Romeo?"

2) "Silly Scotland, for of God's mercy, it has much need"

3) "Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgement."

4) "He is wise enough to play the fool, and to do so requires a certain wit."

Moreover, would you please tell me what the difference between "you" and "thou" is?

How about the difference between "here", "there", "where" and "hither", "whither" and "thither"?


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Josh/Devilman88 on August 07, 2007, 06:01:10 AM
How is the KJV the worst translation? All of the other versions are nothing but trash... The take out so many thing from the bible.

Can you even understand the KJV?

Yes I can understand the KJV, I've been reading since I was born.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: opebo on August 07, 2007, 08:00:57 AM
How is the KJV the worst translation? All of the other versions are nothing but trash... The take out so many thing from the bible.

Can you even understand the KJV?

Yes I can understand the KJV, I've been reading since I was born.

Precocious weren't you?



Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 07, 2007, 12:56:32 PM
How is the KJV the worst translation? All of the other versions are nothing but trash... The take out so many thing from the bible.

Can you even understand the KJV?

Yes I can understand the KJV, I've been reading since I was born.

Oh can you?  Then why won't you answer my questions?


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: MODU on August 07, 2007, 01:34:33 PM
Quote from: Pierre Cardinal LaCroix link=topic=56064.msg1259461#msg1259461
Oh can you?  Then why won't you answer my questions?

Maybe he is one of the four that have you on ignore.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 07, 2007, 02:43:36 PM


I don't see any reason he would.  I just think he doesn't want to walk into an obvious trap.

Anyone else care to take an honest whack at it, so that way I can get my point accross?


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 07, 2007, 03:37:27 PM
Well, while I am waiting for someone to step-up to the plate, I guess I will get my second point about the KJV out of the way, and that is that the accuracy of the translations themselves is highly questionable.  Fans of the KJV will tell you that the scholars went back and translated it directly from the Greek texts.  Even if we never, historically, that this wasn't true, it would still be a mental stretch, because the Vatican, techincally the Lateran, at this time, held almost all the Greek texts at the time, and we know they didn't give them to the Protestants.

Acctually, the translation that the writters of the KJV came from Erasmus' Greek translations, which have not only been proven to be erroneous in several cases, but also add even another layer to the translation, as those then had to be translated into English (I believe the texts were in Latin, as Erasmus was know to write only in Latin).

Now, add onto that the political motives of those assembling the text.  Many say there weren't any, but one instance make it clear that there was at least one obvious case where this was not so.  Until fairly recently, the KJV had Paul saving "Man is justified through faith alone".  The problem is, Paul never said "alone".  That was something that was added by Luther because thought it "should" be there.  Luther was no scholar, and anyone who went back to the Greek can clearly see it isn't there.  The addition of the word "alone" completely changes the meaning of the text to suit the purposes of Protestants.  That one word means the Catholic Church must be wrong.  If only it were there... but wait, we can just put it there and pretend, right?  Well, that's what they did.

More over, the texts that do "paraphrase" (NAB, NIV) only do so where the passage of time has obscured the meaning of the text so much as to render it ununderstandable by the reader.  In otherwords, when the expanse of culture and language have changed so much that peopel simply won't understand what is being said.

A lot of people hold onto the KJV because with all its "formal" language, it just sounds holier than other version, which must be bastardized because they are written in vernacular.  Well, I seem to recall there was a time when Protestants attacked the Catholic Church for remaining Latin based because the Church supposedly presumed that Latin was a holier language.  What makes clinging to the KJV any different?


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Undisguised Sockpuppet on August 07, 2007, 03:39:34 PM
Not applicable.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Gabu on August 07, 2007, 03:41:13 PM
A lot of people hold onto the KJV because with all its "formal" language, it just sounds holier than other version

Don't get me started on the notion of "Biblical English"... :P


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 07, 2007, 03:45:36 PM
A lot of people hold onto the KJV because with all its "formal" language, it just sounds holier than other version

Don't get me started on the notion of "Biblical English"... :P

Thing is, there is nothing formal about it.  That was vernacular back then.  Just as Latin was the vernacular when the RCC started using it.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Undisguised Sockpuppet on August 07, 2007, 03:46:04 PM
Why don't they update for the times/


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Gabu on August 07, 2007, 03:47:00 PM
A lot of people hold onto the KJV because with all its "formal" language, it just sounds holier than other version

Don't get me started on the notion of "Biblical English"... :P

Thing is, there is nothing formal about it.  That was vernacular back then.  Just as Latin was the vernacular when the RCC started using it.

I know.  I'm just saying, I've heard people honest to God refer to the stuff in the KJV as "Biblical English", and I just shake my head at the ignorance.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 07, 2007, 03:50:08 PM
Why don't they update for the times/

Because, when they do, Pastor Bob at the First Bible Baptist throws a sh**t fit and claims that Catholics (read anti-Christ) are influencing the good Christians.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Undisguised Sockpuppet on August 07, 2007, 03:52:11 PM
The "joys" of fundies.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Josh/Devilman88 on August 07, 2007, 06:34:03 PM
How is the KJV the worst translation? All of the other versions are nothing but trash... The take out so many thing from the bible.

Can you even understand the KJV?

Yes I can understand the KJV, I've been reading since I was born.

Oh can you?  Then why won't you answer my questions?

Sorry, what was your question?


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 07, 2007, 08:25:21 PM
How is the KJV the worst translation? All of the other versions are nothing but trash... The take out so many thing from the bible.

Can you even understand the KJV?

Yes I can understand the KJV, I've been reading since I was born.

Oh can you?  Then why won't you answer my questions?

Sorry, what was your question?







Best written.  Worst translation.

I use the New American Catholic Version.

If I want to go for style, I use the St. Ignatius
How is the KJV the worst translation? All of the other versions are nothing but trash... The take out so many thing from the bible.

Hmmm, hadn't realized how old this topic is.  Very well, just for starters Josh, if you would, please give me the meaning of the following phrases from popular literature.

1) "Wherefore art thou Romeo?"

2) "Silly Scotland, for of God's mercy, it has much need"

3) "Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgement."

4) "He is wise enough to play the fool, and to do so requires a certain wit."

Moreover, would you please tell me what the difference between "you" and "thou" is?

How about the difference between "here", "there", "where" and "hither", "whither" and "thither"?


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Josh/Devilman88 on August 07, 2007, 09:33:40 PM
How is the KJV the worst translation? All of the other versions are nothing but trash... The take out so many thing from the bible.

Can you even understand the KJV?

Yes I can understand the KJV, I've been reading since I was born.

Oh can you?  Then why won't you answer my questions?

Sorry, what was your question?







Best written.  Worst translation.

I use the New American Catholic Version.

If I want to go for style, I use the St. Ignatius
How is the KJV the worst translation? All of the other versions are nothing but trash... The take out so many thing from the bible.

Hmmm, hadn't realized how old this topic is.  Very well, just for starters Josh, if you would, please give me the meaning of the following phrases from popular literature.

1) "Wherefore art thou Romeo?"

2) "Silly Scotland, for of God's mercy, it has much need"

3) "Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgement."

4) "He is wise enough to play the fool, and to do so requires a certain wit."

Moreover, would you please tell me what the difference between "you" and "thou" is?

How about the difference between "here", "there", "where" and "hither", "whither" and "thither"?

OK let see...

1)"Wherefore art thou Romeo?"-- Where are you Romeo?
2)"Silly Scotland, for of God's mercy, it has much need"-- That God's mercy is much needed in life, and person is talking to the people of Scotland.
3)"Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgement."-- When people make judgement on you, step back and see if the judgement they are making is true, but you don't judge other people because only God can judge others.
4)"He is wise enough to play the fool, and to do so requires a certain wit."-- One who is smart enough to play the role of a fool requires him to be very smart at the game.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Josh/Devilman88 on August 07, 2007, 09:52:53 PM
In the NACV I call Satan Jesus. The two versus below are from the NACV. They both are talking about the morning star

Isaiah
14:12 How have you fallen from the heavens, O morning star, son of the dawn! How are you cut down to the ground, you who mowed down the nations!


Rev
22 16 I, Jesus, sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the root and offspring of David,  the bright morning star


Now in the KJV this is what it says...
I
sa
14:12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Rev
22: 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.



Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: memphis on August 08, 2007, 01:23:07 AM
It doesn't really matter what Bible people own. Pastors, often with an overt political agenda, tell people what to believe, cherry picking verses out of context to suit their needs.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: MODU on August 08, 2007, 07:15:39 AM

I have a copy called the "Simple English" Bible, thinking it would be a good teaching tool for others.  Unfortunately, they try too hard to make the sentences short and simple that they cut out parts of the message and use words that don't provide the same meaning as the conventional translations.  Needless to say, it now sits on the shelf.  I use to use a Bible that had the four major translations all on one page.  So, say you open up to some chapter... in the first column was the King James version, then the American Standard.  On the other side of the crease was the New International Version and something else.  It proved to be a better study Bible, but way too big to carry around constantly.  I now have the New American Standard and a copy translated from one of the earlier Greek versions ... said to be more accurate.  They do have the correction of "Thou shall not murder" vice the incorrect translation "Thou shall not kill," for example.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 08, 2007, 12:43:44 PM
OK let see...

1)"Wherefore art thou Romeo?"-- Where are you Romeo?
2)"Silly Scotland, for of God's mercy, it has much need"-- That God's mercy is much needed in life, and person is talking to the people of Scotland.
3)"Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgement."-- When people make judgement on you, step back and see if the judgement they are making is true, but you don't judge other people because only God can judge others.
4)"He is wise enough to play the fool, and to do so requires a certain wit."-- One who is smart enough to play the role of a fool requires him to be very smart at the game.

1 1/2 out of 4, not bad at all, since most people wouldn't have gotten a single one.

1) No.  "Wherefore" back in that time did not mean "where" at all.  It meant "Why".  She is asking, "Why are you Romeo?"  In other words, "why couldn't you be anyone else".

2) I'll give you half on that one, because your answer didn't hit the point.  The word "silly" didn't start out meaning what it means today.  It started out as the English equivlent to the German "sehlig"(sp) which means "blessed".  So, we have sentences that go "Silly, art thou, Virgin Mary".  If something is "blessed" then it is thought to be "innocent", so the word changed to mean that.  So, when the guy says "Silly Scotland" he is saying "Innocent Scotland".  It then changed to mean helpless, which then came to mean foolish.

3) No.  Censure was not "comdemnation" back then.  To take someone censure meant to "size them up".  So, modern words, what is beign said is "Size each man up (or observe him), but don't talk about it" which is much better advice than what one thinks is being said.

4) Correct.  But wit back then meant, exclusively, knowledge or mind.  Today, of course, it means to be funny in a highbrow kind of way.

You didn't answer the other parts, so I will just go through those.

People think of "thou" as being this formal thing, when in reality, it is nothing of the sort.  "Thou" acctually used to be the 2nd Person Singular in the English language.  "You" was the 2nd person plural.  "You" was also used as the formal singular, in otherwords, when you were talking to someone of a recongnizably higher social station, whereas "Thou" was used in informal situations.  Almost all Indo-European languages make an established distinction between "you" singular (and familiar) and "you" plural (and formal) except Modern English.  For some reason (I have a theory) "thou" fell out of the language and was taken over by "you".  People today try to compensate for the loss with "yous", "yinz" and "y'all".

As for here, there and where and hither, thither and whither:

"Here" was only used to describe where you were, right now.  If you wanted someone to come to you, you would say "come hither".  "There" was only to describe the location of a place.  If you wanted someone to "go there" you would say "go thither".  Same idea with "whither".

The point I am trying to make is that, it isn't just bad translation that murks the KJV.  The KJV is rife with these little examples of places where the language has changed.  Not understanding those changes can completely change the way someone views a passage of the Bible (and Shakespear, for that matter).  Most peeple have to go through years of training in English Language history to understand the changes.  Something tells me that Pastor Bob at the First Bible Baptist KJV only church doesn't understand these changes.

That is the only advantage that the Catholic Church had over the Protestants for all those years having Bibles in Latin.  Latin is a dead language.  If no longer changes or evolves.  English is changing all the time.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Democratic Hawk on August 08, 2007, 12:57:41 PM
I'm certain the one on my bedside cabinet is the Authorized / King James Version

Dave


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Josh/Devilman88 on August 08, 2007, 05:07:00 PM
In the NACV I call Satan Jesus. The two versus below are from the NACV. They both are talking about the morning star

Isaiah
14:12 How have you fallen from the heavens, O morning star, son of the dawn! How are you cut down to the ground, you who mowed down the nations!


Rev
22 16 I, Jesus, sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the root and offspring of David,  the bright morning star


Now in the KJV this is what it says...
I
sa
14:12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Rev
22: 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.



Supersoulty.. what do you have to say about this?


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 08, 2007, 05:34:33 PM
In the NACV I call Satan Jesus. The two versus below are from the NACV. They both are talking about the morning star

Isaiah
14:12 How have you fallen from the heavens, O morning star, son of the dawn! How are you cut down to the ground, you who mowed down the nations!


Rev
22 16 I, Jesus, sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the root and offspring of David,  the bright morning star


Now in the KJV this is what it says...
I
sa
14:12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Rev
22: 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.



Supersoulty.. what do you have to say about this?

This is what happens where you try to take two completely different texts, with two seperate contexts and run a comparison.

It is an established fact that Satan was known as the Morning Star.  Lucifer means "The Light Bringer" or, in context "The Morning Star".  It is a direct translation.  DIRECT.  The NACV simply translated it out of Latin.

The two passages probably have nothing to do with one another, theologically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Bacon King on August 08, 2007, 05:36:48 PM
http://www.crivoice.org/lucifer.html

But this is not quite as obvious as it sounds even in Latin. The term Lucifer in fourth century Latin was a name for Venus, especially as the morning star. The Latin word Lucifer is composed of two words:  lux, or in the genitive form used lucis, (meaning "light") and ferre, which means "to bear" or "to bring."  So, the word Lucifer means bearer of light.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 08, 2007, 05:41:41 PM
http://www.crivoice.org/lucifer.html

But this is not quite as obvious as it sounds even in Latin. The term Lucifer in fourth century Latin was a name for Venus, especially as the morning star. The Latin word Lucifer is composed of two words:  lux, or in the genitive form used lucis, (meaning "light") and ferre, which means "to bear" or "to bring."  So, the word Lucifer means bearer of light.

Indeed.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Josh/Devilman88 on August 08, 2007, 06:08:15 PM
supersoulty how do you get saved?


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 08, 2007, 06:09:14 PM

Alright, now we are talking.  I was waiting for this thing to get moving.  Let me assemble my resources.  This shoudln't take too long.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 08, 2007, 06:18:28 PM

Acctually, if I might, I would like to ask for your opinion first.

Its a thing with me, I always like the other person to shoot first, it gives me a place to start from.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Josh/Devilman88 on August 08, 2007, 06:49:35 PM
First off you have to know that we all are sinners damned to Hell, as stated in the verse below
Romans 3:23 -For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
It says we ALL have sinned...

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

This verse tell you the only way to heaven is through Jesus. Jesus is the one and only way to heaven. You can't get there by being a good person or works or saints.

Romans10:
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This says that if you believe Jesus raised from the dead and as ask him into your heart then you will be say, but you have to truly mean it.


* So you have to know that you are a sinner, and truly want Jesus to come into your life to save you to be save*


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 08, 2007, 07:10:22 PM
First off you have to know that we all are sinners damned to Hell, as stated in the verse below
Romans 3:23 -For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
It says we ALL have sinned...

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

This verse tell you the only way to heaven is through Jesus. Jesus is the one and only way to heaven. You can't get there by being a good person or works or saints.

Romans10:
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This says that if you believe Jesus raised from the dead and as ask him into your heart then you will be say, but you have to truly mean it.


* So you have to know that you are a sinner, and truly want Jesus to come into your life to save you to be save*

Okayy, well, I agree with part of your premise... that we are saved through Jesus.  And it has never never been the position of any mainstream Church that we are ever "saved" through saints, so I don't know where you go that.

This has raised to the level of a cliche, but what do you make of the book of James.  It is, James tells us:

James 1 & 2

22
Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves.
23
For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror.
24
He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like.
25
But the one who peers into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does.
26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, his religion is vain.
27
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows  in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world

1
My brothers, show no partiality as you adhere to the faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ.
2
For if a man with gold rings on his fingers and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and a poor person in shabby clothes also comes in,
3
and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say, "Sit here, please," while you say to the poor one, "Stand there," or "Sit at my feet,"
4
have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil designs? 
5
Listen, my beloved brothers. Did not God choose those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him?
6
But you dishonored the poor person. Are not the rich oppressing you? And do they themselves not haul you off to court?
7
Is it not they who blaspheme the noble name that was invoked over you?
8
However, if you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.
9
But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10
For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it.
11
For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not kill." Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12
So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom.
13
For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly, James is talking about acts here, along with faith.  Faith without works is dead.  Faith is justified through works.  Treat others as fellow brothers, regardless of station, etc.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 08, 2007, 07:11:34 PM
In fact, it is worth noting that James is so direct here, that, in the Study Bible, this passage carries only about 5 footnotes, the fewest I think I have seen in one of such length.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Josh/Devilman88 on August 08, 2007, 07:19:15 PM
First off you have to know that we all are sinners damned to Hell, as stated in the verse below
Romans 3:23 -For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
It says we ALL have sinned...

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

This verse tell you the only way to heaven is through Jesus. Jesus is the one and only way to heaven. You can't get there by being a good person or works or saints.

Romans10:
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This says that if you believe Jesus raised from the dead and as ask him into your heart then you will be say, but you have to truly mean it.


* So you have to know that you are a sinner, and truly want Jesus to come into your life to save you to be save*

Okayy, well, I agree with part of your premise... that we are saved through Jesus.  And it has never never been the position of any mainstream Church that we are ever "saved" through saints, so I don't know where you go that.

This has raised to the level of a cliche, but what do you make of the book of James.  It is, James tells us:

James 1 & 2

22
Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves.
23
For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror.
24
He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like.
25
But the one who peers into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does.
26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, his religion is vain.
27
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows  in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world

1
My brothers, show no partiality as you adhere to the faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ.
2
For if a man with gold rings on his fingers and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and a poor person in shabby clothes also comes in,
3
and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say, "Sit here, please," while you say to the poor one, "Stand there," or "Sit at my feet,"
4
have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil designs? 
5
Listen, my beloved brothers. Did not God choose those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him?
6
But you dishonored the poor person. Are not the rich oppressing you? And do they themselves not haul you off to court?
7
Is it not they who blaspheme the noble name that was invoked over you?
8
However, if you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.
9
But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10
For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it.
11
For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not kill." Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12
So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom.
13
For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly, James is talking about acts here, along with faith.  Faith without works is dead.  Faith is justified through works.  Treat others as fellow brothers, regardless of station, etc.

It should be works with faith is dead.  Yes, you should do works for God and if you are truly saved then you will want to do works for God. But nowhere does it say if you don't do work for God means you are not saved... I believe once saved always saved.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 08, 2007, 07:24:44 PM
First off you have to know that we all are sinners damned to Hell, as stated in the verse below
Romans 3:23 -For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
It says we ALL have sinned...

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

This verse tell you the only way to heaven is through Jesus. Jesus is the one and only way to heaven. You can't get there by being a good person or works or saints.

Romans10:
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This says that if you believe Jesus raised from the dead and as ask him into your heart then you will be say, but you have to truly mean it.


* So you have to know that you are a sinner, and truly want Jesus to come into your life to save you to be save*

Okayy, well, I agree with part of your premise... that we are saved through Jesus.  And it has never never been the position of any mainstream Church that we are ever "saved" through saints, so I don't know where you go that.

This has raised to the level of a cliche, but what do you make of the book of James.  It is, James tells us:

James 1 & 2

22
Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves.
23
For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror.
24
He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like.
25
But the one who peers into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does.
26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, his religion is vain.
27
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows  in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world

1
My brothers, show no partiality as you adhere to the faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ.
2
For if a man with gold rings on his fingers and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and a poor person in shabby clothes also comes in,
3
and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say, "Sit here, please," while you say to the poor one, "Stand there," or "Sit at my feet,"
4
have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil designs? 
5
Listen, my beloved brothers. Did not God choose those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him?
6
But you dishonored the poor person. Are not the rich oppressing you? And do they themselves not haul you off to court?
7
Is it not they who blaspheme the noble name that was invoked over you?
8
However, if you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.
9
But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10
For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it.
11
For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not kill." Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12
So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom.
13
For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly, James is talking about acts here, along with faith.  Faith without works is dead.  Faith is justified through works.  Treat others as fellow brothers, regardless of station, etc.

It should be works without faith is dead.  Yes, you should do works for God and if you are truly saved then you will want to do works for God. But nowhere does it say if you don't do work for God means you are not saved... I believe once saved always saved.

I assume you meant "without".  Well, you know what, that's great.  Luther thought it shoudl be that too.  In fact, he tried to have the book of James deleted from the Bible, that created an outcry, even amounst his supporters, though, so Protestant theology just found a way to ignore it for 400 years.

I don't want to know what you think it should be.  That's what it IS.  And you can't ignore it, because the context is obvious.  Now, do you accept the definitivness of the Bible, or don't you?

After you answer that, we can move onto this "Once saved, always saved" thing


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Josh/Devilman88 on August 08, 2007, 07:38:13 PM
First off you have to know that we all are sinners damned to Hell, as stated in the verse below
Romans 3:23 -For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
It says we ALL have sinned...

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

This verse tell you the only way to heaven is through Jesus. Jesus is the one and only way to heaven. You can't get there by being a good person or works or saints.

Romans10:
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This says that if you believe Jesus raised from the dead and as ask him into your heart then you will be say, but you have to truly mean it.


* So you have to know that you are a sinner, and truly want Jesus to come into your life to save you to be save*

Okayy, well, I agree with part of your premise... that we are saved through Jesus.  And it has never never been the position of any mainstream Church that we are ever "saved" through saints, so I don't know where you go that.

This has raised to the level of a cliche, but what do you make of the book of James.  It is, James tells us:

James 1 & 2

22
Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves.
23
For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror.
24
He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like.
25
But the one who peers into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does.
26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, his religion is vain.
27
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows  in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world

1
My brothers, show no partiality as you adhere to the faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ.
2
For if a man with gold rings on his fingers and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and a poor person in shabby clothes also comes in,
3
and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say, "Sit here, please," while you say to the poor one, "Stand there," or "Sit at my feet,"
4
have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil designs? 
5
Listen, my beloved brothers. Did not God choose those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him?
6
But you dishonored the poor person. Are not the rich oppressing you? And do they themselves not haul you off to court?
7
Is it not they who blaspheme the noble name that was invoked over you?
8
However, if you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.
9
But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10
For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it.
11
For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not kill." Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12
So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom.
13
For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly, James is talking about acts here, along with faith.  Faith without works is dead.  Faith is justified through works.  Treat others as fellow brothers, regardless of station, etc.

It should be works without faith is dead.  Yes, you should do works for God and if you are truly saved then you will want to do works for God. But nowhere does it say if you don't do work for God means you are not saved... I believe once saved always saved.

I assume you meant "without".  Well, you know what, that's great.  Luther thought it shoudl be that too.  In fact, he tried to have the book of James deleted from the Bible, that created an outcry, even amounst his supporters, though, so Protestant theology just found a way to ignore it for 400 years.

I don't want to know what you think it should be.  That's what it IS.  And you can't ignore it, because the context is obvious.  Now, do you accept the definitivness of the Bible, or don't you?

After you answer that, we can move onto this "Once saved, always saved" thing

Your right it should be faith without works is dead.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 08, 2007, 07:40:02 PM
First off you have to know that we all are sinners damned to Hell, as stated in the verse below
Romans 3:23 -For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
It says we ALL have sinned...

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

This verse tell you the only way to heaven is through Jesus. Jesus is the one and only way to heaven. You can't get there by being a good person or works or saints.

Romans10:
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This says that if you believe Jesus raised from the dead and as ask him into your heart then you will be say, but you have to truly mean it.


* So you have to know that you are a sinner, and truly want Jesus to come into your life to save you to be save*

Okayy, well, I agree with part of your premise... that we are saved through Jesus.  And it has never never been the position of any mainstream Church that we are ever "saved" through saints, so I don't know where you go that.

This has raised to the level of a cliche, but what do you make of the book of James.  It is, James tells us:

James 1 & 2

22
Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves.
23
For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror.
24
He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like.
25
But the one who peers into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does.
26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, his religion is vain.
27
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows  in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world

1
My brothers, show no partiality as you adhere to the faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ.
2
For if a man with gold rings on his fingers and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and a poor person in shabby clothes also comes in,
3
and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say, "Sit here, please," while you say to the poor one, "Stand there," or "Sit at my feet,"
4
have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil designs? 
5
Listen, my beloved brothers. Did not God choose those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him?
6
But you dishonored the poor person. Are not the rich oppressing you? And do they themselves not haul you off to court?
7
Is it not they who blaspheme the noble name that was invoked over you?
8
However, if you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.
9
But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10
For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it.
11
For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not kill." Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12
So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom.
13
For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly, James is talking about acts here, along with faith.  Faith without works is dead.  Faith is justified through works.  Treat others as fellow brothers, regardless of station, etc.

It should be works without faith is dead.  Yes, you should do works for God and if you are truly saved then you will want to do works for God. But nowhere does it say if you don't do work for God means you are not saved... I believe once saved always saved.

I assume you meant "without".  Well, you know what, that's great.  Luther thought it shoudl be that too.  In fact, he tried to have the book of James deleted from the Bible, that created an outcry, even amounst his supporters, though, so Protestant theology just found a way to ignore it for 400 years.

I don't want to know what you think it should be.  That's what it IS.  And you can't ignore it, because the context is obvious.  Now, do you accept the definitivness of the Bible, or don't you?

After you answer that, we can move onto this "Once saved, always saved" thing

Your right it should be faith without works is dead.

Okay, well, what say you to my other questions?


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 7,052,770 on August 08, 2007, 07:40:57 PM
There's nothing more irritating that people pulling out random Bible verses and quoting them, without giving the context.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Josh/Devilman88 on August 08, 2007, 07:47:35 PM
First off you have to know that we all are sinners damned to Hell, as stated in the verse below
Romans 3:23 -For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
It says we ALL have sinned...

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

This verse tell you the only way to heaven is through Jesus. Jesus is the one and only way to heaven. You can't get there by being a good person or works or saints.

Romans10:
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This says that if you believe Jesus raised from the dead and as ask him into your heart then you will be say, but you have to truly mean it.


* So you have to know that you are a sinner, and truly want Jesus to come into your life to save you to be save*

Okayy, well, I agree with part of your premise... that we are saved through Jesus.  And it has never never been the position of any mainstream Church that we are ever "saved" through saints, so I don't know where you go that.

This has raised to the level of a cliche, but what do you make of the book of James.  It is, James tells us:

James 1 & 2

22
Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves.
23
For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror.
24
He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like.
25
But the one who peers into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does.
26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, his religion is vain.
27
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows  in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world

1
My brothers, show no partiality as you adhere to the faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ.
2
For if a man with gold rings on his fingers and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and a poor person in shabby clothes also comes in,
3
and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say, "Sit here, please," while you say to the poor one, "Stand there," or "Sit at my feet,"
4
have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil designs? 
5
Listen, my beloved brothers. Did not God choose those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him?
6
But you dishonored the poor person. Are not the rich oppressing you? And do they themselves not haul you off to court?
7
Is it not they who blaspheme the noble name that was invoked over you?
8
However, if you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.
9
But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10
For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it.
11
For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not kill." Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12
So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom.
13
For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly, James is talking about acts here, along with faith.  Faith without works is dead.  Faith is justified through works.  Treat others as fellow brothers, regardless of station, etc.

It should be works without faith is dead.  Yes, you should do works for God and if you are truly saved then you will want to do works for God. But nowhere does it say if you don't do work for God means you are not saved... I believe once saved always saved.

I assume you meant "without".  Well, you know what, that's great.  Luther thought it shoudl be that too.  In fact, he tried to have the book of James deleted from the Bible, that created an outcry, even amounst his supporters, though, so Protestant theology just found a way to ignore it for 400 years.

I don't want to know what you think it should be.  That's what it IS.  And you can't ignore it, because the context is obvious.  Now, do you accept the definitivness of the Bible, or don't you?

After you answer that, we can move onto this "Once saved, always saved" thing

Your right it should be faith without works is dead.

Okay, well, what say you to my other questions?


Sorry, but I don't understand your other question..


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 08, 2007, 07:52:32 PM
First off you have to know that we all are sinners damned to Hell, as stated in the verse below
Romans 3:23 -For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
It says we ALL have sinned...

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

This verse tell you the only way to heaven is through Jesus. Jesus is the one and only way to heaven. You can't get there by being a good person or works or saints.

Romans10:
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This says that if you believe Jesus raised from the dead and as ask him into your heart then you will be say, but you have to truly mean it.


* So you have to know that you are a sinner, and truly want Jesus to come into your life to save you to be save*

Okayy, well, I agree with part of your premise... that we are saved through Jesus.  And it has never never been the position of any mainstream Church that we are ever "saved" through saints, so I don't know where you go that.

This has raised to the level of a cliche, but what do you make of the book of James.  It is, James tells us:

James 1 & 2

22
Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves.
23
For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror.
24
He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like.
25
But the one who peers into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does.
26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, his religion is vain.
27
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows  in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world

1
My brothers, show no partiality as you adhere to the faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ.
2
For if a man with gold rings on his fingers and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and a poor person in shabby clothes also comes in,
3
and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say, "Sit here, please," while you say to the poor one, "Stand there," or "Sit at my feet,"
4
have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil designs? 
5
Listen, my beloved brothers. Did not God choose those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him?
6
But you dishonored the poor person. Are not the rich oppressing you? And do they themselves not haul you off to court?
7
Is it not they who blaspheme the noble name that was invoked over you?
8
However, if you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.
9
But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10
For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it.
11
For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not kill." Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12
So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom.
13
For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly, James is talking about acts here, along with faith.  Faith without works is dead.  Faith is justified through works.  Treat others as fellow brothers, regardless of station, etc.

It should be works without faith is dead.  Yes, you should do works for God and if you are truly saved then you will want to do works for God. But nowhere does it say if you don't do work for God means you are not saved... I believe once saved always saved.

I assume you meant "without".  Well, you know what, that's great.  Luther thought it shoudl be that too.  In fact, he tried to have the book of James deleted from the Bible, that created an outcry, even amounst his supporters, though, so Protestant theology just found a way to ignore it for 400 years.

I don't want to know what you think it should be.  That's what it IS.  And you can't ignore it, because the context is obvious.  Now, do you accept the definitivness of the Bible, or don't you?

After you answer that, we can move onto this "Once saved, always saved" thing

Your right it should be faith without works is dead.

Okay, well, what say you to my other questions?


Sorry, but I don't understand your other question..

Do you believe the Bible is definitive?  Meaning that, when things are taking into context, do you believe scripture is infallable?


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Josh/Devilman88 on August 08, 2007, 07:59:28 PM
First off you have to know that we all are sinners damned to Hell, as stated in the verse below
Romans 3:23 -For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
It says we ALL have sinned...

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

This verse tell you the only way to heaven is through Jesus. Jesus is the one and only way to heaven. You can't get there by being a good person or works or saints.

Romans10:
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This says that if you believe Jesus raised from the dead and as ask him into your heart then you will be say, but you have to truly mean it.


* So you have to know that you are a sinner, and truly want Jesus to come into your life to save you to be save*

Okayy, well, I agree with part of your premise... that we are saved through Jesus.  And it has never never been the position of any mainstream Church that we are ever "saved" through saints, so I don't know where you go that.

This has raised to the level of a cliche, but what do you make of the book of James.  It is, James tells us:

James 1 & 2

22
Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves.
23
For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror.
24
He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like.
25
But the one who peers into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does.
26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, his religion is vain.
27
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows  in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world

1
My brothers, show no partiality as you adhere to the faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ.
2
For if a man with gold rings on his fingers and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and a poor person in shabby clothes also comes in,
3
and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say, "Sit here, please," while you say to the poor one, "Stand there," or "Sit at my feet,"
4
have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil designs? 
5
Listen, my beloved brothers. Did not God choose those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him?
6
But you dishonored the poor person. Are not the rich oppressing you? And do they themselves not haul you off to court?
7
Is it not they who blaspheme the noble name that was invoked over you?
8
However, if you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.
9
But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10
For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it.
11
For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not kill." Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12
So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom.
13
For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly, James is talking about acts here, along with faith.  Faith without works is dead.  Faith is justified through works.  Treat others as fellow brothers, regardless of station, etc.

It should be works without faith is dead.  Yes, you should do works for God and if you are truly saved then you will want to do works for God. But nowhere does it say if you don't do work for God means you are not saved... I believe once saved always saved.

I assume you meant "without".  Well, you know what, that's great.  Luther thought it shoudl be that too.  In fact, he tried to have the book of James deleted from the Bible, that created an outcry, even amounst his supporters, though, so Protestant theology just found a way to ignore it for 400 years.

I don't want to know what you think it should be.  That's what it IS.  And you can't ignore it, because the context is obvious.  Now, do you accept the definitivness of the Bible, or don't you?

After you answer that, we can move onto this "Once saved, always saved" thing

Your right it should be faith without works is dead.

Okay, well, what say you to my other questions?


Sorry, but I don't understand your other question..

Do you believe the Bible is definitive?  Meaning that, when things are taking into context, do you believe scripture is infallable?

Yes I do believe the bible is infallable.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 08, 2007, 08:03:36 PM
First off you have to know that we all are sinners damned to Hell, as stated in the verse below
Romans 3:23 -For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
It says we ALL have sinned...

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

This verse tell you the only way to heaven is through Jesus. Jesus is the one and only way to heaven. You can't get there by being a good person or works or saints.

Romans10:
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This says that if you believe Jesus raised from the dead and as ask him into your heart then you will be say, but you have to truly mean it.


* So you have to know that you are a sinner, and truly want Jesus to come into your life to save you to be save*

Okayy, well, I agree with part of your premise... that we are saved through Jesus.  And it has never never been the position of any mainstream Church that we are ever "saved" through saints, so I don't know where you go that.

This has raised to the level of a cliche, but what do you make of the book of James.  It is, James tells us:

James 1 & 2

22
Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves.
23
For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror.
24
He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like.
25
But the one who peers into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does.
26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, his religion is vain.
27
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows  in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world

1
My brothers, show no partiality as you adhere to the faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ.
2
For if a man with gold rings on his fingers and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and a poor person in shabby clothes also comes in,
3
and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say, "Sit here, please," while you say to the poor one, "Stand there," or "Sit at my feet,"
4
have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil designs? 
5
Listen, my beloved brothers. Did not God choose those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him?
6
But you dishonored the poor person. Are not the rich oppressing you? And do they themselves not haul you off to court?
7
Is it not they who blaspheme the noble name that was invoked over you?
8
However, if you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.
9
But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10
For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it.
11
For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not kill." Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12
So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom.
13
For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly, James is talking about acts here, along with faith.  Faith without works is dead.  Faith is justified through works.  Treat others as fellow brothers, regardless of station, etc.

It should be works without faith is dead.  Yes, you should do works for God and if you are truly saved then you will want to do works for God. But nowhere does it say if you don't do work for God means you are not saved... I believe once saved always saved.

I assume you meant "without".  Well, you know what, that's great.  Luther thought it shoudl be that too.  In fact, he tried to have the book of James deleted from the Bible, that created an outcry, even amounst his supporters, though, so Protestant theology just found a way to ignore it for 400 years.

I don't want to know what you think it should be.  That's what it IS.  And you can't ignore it, because the context is obvious.  Now, do you accept the definitivness of the Bible, or don't you?

After you answer that, we can move onto this "Once saved, always saved" thing

Your right it should be faith without works is dead.

Okay, well, what say you to my other questions?


Sorry, but I don't understand your other question..

Do you believe the Bible is definitive?  Meaning that, when things are taking into context, do you believe scripture is infallable?

Yes I do believe the bible is infallable.

And you still stick by sola fide


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Josh/Devilman88 on August 08, 2007, 08:06:12 PM
yes


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 08, 2007, 08:10:49 PM

What if I told you that I can prove to you, using only scripture that sola fide is wrong, that, in fact, it is not even the most important part of salvation?


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Josh/Devilman88 on August 08, 2007, 08:26:22 PM

What if I told you that I can prove to you, using only scripture that sola fide is wrong, that, in fact, it is not even the most important part of salvation?

Show me where it says that(in the kjv).


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 08, 2007, 08:53:46 PM
So that you know I am not just pulling out something totally random here, I want to give some context first.  In Galatians 5, Paul tells us:

6
For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

This doesn't say much, admitedly, but Paul explains it a little further in 1 Corinthians.

Again, I will give the context.  Paul, for whatever reason, feels compeled to talk about Christian Spiritual gifts.  In chapter 12, he breezes over the other gifts.  He finishes in another famous passage, which I am sure will be important later:

27
Now you are Christ's body, and individually parts of it.
28
Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.
29
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work mighty deeds?
30
Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
31
Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts. But I shall show you a still more excellent way.

We then turn to Chapter 13... I'll give you the whole thing, for purposes of context, but I will bold the important parts:

1
If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
2
And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
3
If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4
3 Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,
5
it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,
6
it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
7
It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8
Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
9
For we know partially and we prophesy partially,
10
but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
11
When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
12
At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
13
So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.


Now, the mention of the other two (faith and hope) is kinda random, but they were a well known triad at the time.  The fact that it is so random though, suggests that Paul is going to an extra length to make his point, after contrasting Love to all the other minor gifts.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 08, 2007, 08:54:09 PM

What if I told you that I can prove to you, using only scripture that sola fide is wrong, that, in fact, it is not even the most important part of salvation?

Show me where it says that(in the kjv).



Site for an online KJV?  I want you to pick your preference.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: ?????????? on August 09, 2007, 05:48:40 AM
Interestingly enough 13:8 of what you just quoted completely discredits the Pentecostal Church.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Josh/Devilman88 on August 09, 2007, 11:03:12 AM
So that you know I am not just pulling out something totally random here, I want to give some context first.  In Galatians 5, Paul tells us:

6
For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

This doesn't say much, admitedly, but Paul explains it a little further in 1 Corinthians.

Again, I will give the context.  Paul, for whatever reason, feels compeled to talk about Christian Spiritual gifts.  In chapter 12, he breezes over the other gifts.  He finishes in another famous passage, which I am sure will be important later:

27
Now you are Christ's body, and individually parts of it.
28
Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.
29
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work mighty deeds?
30
Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
31
Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts. But I shall show you a still more excellent way.

We then turn to Chapter 13... I'll give you the whole thing, for purposes of context, but I will bold the important parts:

1
If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
2
And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
3
If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4
3 Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,
5
it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,
6
it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
7
It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8
Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
9
For we know partially and we prophesy partially,
10
but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
11
When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
12
At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
13
So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.


Now, the mention of the other two (faith and hope) is kinda random, but they were a well known triad at the time.  The fact that it is so random though, suggests that Paul is going to an extra length to make his point, after contrasting Love to all the other minor gifts.

What is your point? That still don't say anything about works helping you get to heaven.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 09, 2007, 12:11:57 PM
So that you know I am not just pulling out something totally random here, I want to give some context first.  In Galatians 5, Paul tells us:

6
For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

This doesn't say much, admitedly, but Paul explains it a little further in 1 Corinthians.

Again, I will give the context.  Paul, for whatever reason, feels compeled to talk about Christian Spiritual gifts.  In chapter 12, he breezes over the other gifts.  He finishes in another famous passage, which I am sure will be important later:

27
Now you are Christ's body, and individually parts of it.
28
Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.
29
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work mighty deeds?
30
Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
31
Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts. But I shall show you a still more excellent way.

We then turn to Chapter 13... I'll give you the whole thing, for purposes of context, but I will bold the important parts:

1
If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
2
And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
3
If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4
3 Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,
5
it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,
6
it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
7
It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8
Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
9
For we know partially and we prophesy partially,
10
but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
11
When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
12
At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
13
So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.


Now, the mention of the other two (faith and hope) is kinda random, but they were a well known triad at the time.  The fact that it is so random though, suggests that Paul is going to an extra length to make his point, after contrasting Love to all the other minor gifts.

What is your point? That still don't say anything about works helping you get to heaven.

I said I was going to prove that sola fide was wrong.  Did I not just do that?


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 09, 2007, 12:13:01 PM
My argument isn't over yet, BTW.  I am simply working up to the point.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 09, 2007, 12:18:36 PM
Sorry, I forgot, I had already given you James, I went backwards.  Okay, Paul clearly defeats the notion on sola fide, correct?

Then I have James telling us to be doers and not only hearers of the word, correct?

So how does one be a doer of the word?  James tells us.  Good works. 

Love and good works are connected, correct?  Because how does one show their love?

And I'm not even done yet, I just want to see if you agree with me on these points.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Josh/Devilman88 on August 09, 2007, 12:28:14 PM
So that you know I am not just pulling out something totally random here, I want to give some context first.  In Galatians 5, Paul tells us:

6
For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

This doesn't say much, admitedly, but Paul explains it a little further in 1 Corinthians.

Again, I will give the context.  Paul, for whatever reason, feels compeled to talk about Christian Spiritual gifts.  In chapter 12, he breezes over the other gifts.  He finishes in another famous passage, which I am sure will be important later:

27
Now you are Christ's body, and individually parts of it.
28
Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.
29
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work mighty deeds?
30
Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
31
Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts. But I shall show you a still more excellent way.

We then turn to Chapter 13... I'll give you the whole thing, for purposes of context, but I will bold the important parts:

1
If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
2
And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
3
If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4
3 Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,
5
it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,
6
it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
7
It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8
Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
9
For we know partially and we prophesy partially,
10
but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
11
When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
12
At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
13
So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.


Now, the mention of the other two (faith and hope) is kinda random, but they were a well known triad at the time.  The fact that it is so random though, suggests that Paul is going to an extra length to make his point, after contrasting Love to all the other minor gifts.

What is your point? That still don't say anything about works helping you get to heaven.

No, this is not talking about getting saved. This is talking about a Christian should have these qualities, but it is not required to have to be saved.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Josh/Devilman88 on August 09, 2007, 12:32:55 PM
Sorry, I forgot, I had already given you James, I went backwards.  Okay, Paul clearly defeats the notion on sola fide, correct?

Then I have James telling us to be doers and not only hearers of the word, correct?

So how does one be a doer of the word?  James tells us.  Good works. 

Love and good works are connected, correct?  Because how does one show their love?

And I'm not even done yet, I just want to see if you agree with me on these points.

Like I have been saying all this time, if you are truly saved by the grace of God, then you will want do thing to spread the message of God.

James is not saying anything about works with faith helps you go to heaven. He is telling us not just take in the message of God, but help spread it through out the world.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 09, 2007, 12:47:21 PM
Sorry, I forgot, I had already given you James, I went backwards.  Okay, Paul clearly defeats the notion on sola fide, correct?

Then I have James telling us to be doers and not only hearers of the word, correct?

So how does one be a doer of the word?  James tells us.  Good works. 

Love and good works are connected, correct?  Because how does one show their love?

And I'm not even done yet, I just want to see if you agree with me on these points.

Like I have been saying all this time, if you are truly saved by the grace of God, then you will want do thing to spread the message of God.

James is not saying anything about works with faith helps you go to heaven. He is telling us not just take in the message of God, but help spread it through out the world.

Hang on... I agree, we are saved through God's grace.  That's not the point.  That is not up for discussion.


No, this is not talking about getting saved. This is talking about a Christian should have these qualities, but it is not required to have to be saved.

First off, Dude, it says it right there.  Faith without works is dead.  Paul places Love over Faith in terms of importance.  You can't deny it. 

Those passages have NOTHING to do with spreading the "message".  Nothing at all.  Even if you can't grab that by reading them, the context of the surrounding passages has nothing to do with spreading the message.  James is addressing a Christian Jewish convert community who, at least wonder if faith alone is enough.  It's true that James goes onto talk about teaching the word, but the two thoughts show no connection. The reasons I gave you the context leading up to each in both of them was so you couldn't say that. Were either Paul or James talking about "spreading the words" per se, then they would have mentioned it somewhere in those passages, don't you think.  If you look at James the entire lead up to my primary point has to do with actions, not words.

But, I figured you wouldn't believe me, so I will prepare round 2.  Give me a moment.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 09, 2007, 01:05:14 PM
Okay, so let us turn to John 14.  This is the famous chaper that is always quoted by sola fideists to back up their claims.  Here, Jesus is talking about salvation.  I will give you the entire chapter so that you can see all the context surrounding what he is saying, once again, I will highlight the main points.

1
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You have faith in God; have faith also in me.
2
In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you?
3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be.
4
Where (I) am going you know the way." 
5
Thomas said to him, "Master, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?"
6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, most Protestant stop right there and say "AHA".  But what happens after that is just as important, because it puts what Jesus has said into context.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7
If you know me, then you will also know my Father. From now on you do know him and have seen him."
8
Philip said to him, "Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us."
9
Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.
11
Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves.
12
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father.
13
And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14
If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.
15
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always,
17
the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.
18
I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

19
In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me, because I live and you will live.
20
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I in you.
21
Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him."
22
Judas, not the Iscariot, said to him, "Master, (then) what happened that you will reveal yourself to us and not to the world?"
23
Jesus answered and said to him, "Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him.
24
Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me.
25
"I have told you this while I am with you.
26
The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name--he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you.
27
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid.
28
13 You heard me tell you, 'I am going away and I will come back to you.' If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.
29
And now I have told you this before it happens, so that when it happens you may believe.
30
I will no longer speak much with you, for the ruler of the world is coming. He has no power over me,
31
but the world must know that I love the Father and that I do just as the Father has commanded me. Get up, let us go.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Verse 16 etc isn't important right now, it might be important later, which is why I have highlighted it.  The important parts here are 12 and 15.

Jesus says that "he who believes in me will do works".  Now Protestant logic says "well, that means that anyone who has faith in Christ will be consumed by the Spirit and do as Christ would.  But... and this is the real significance of James in this puzzle... James tells use that that does NOT logically follow.  That one can have faith without works, though it is a dead faith.

Finally, Jesus doesn't say "if you love me, you will believe in me".  He says "If you love me keep my commandments."  That's an action oreinted command.  He is telling the disciples to do things, not just have faith.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: MODU on August 09, 2007, 01:56:08 PM

Waits for the discussion of _____ in order to be saved.  Just to see if you two actually get to that point.  :P


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 09, 2007, 02:15:34 PM

Waits for the discussion of _____ in order to be saved.  Just to see if you two actually get to that point.  :P

I am getting there.  The Grace of God is what "saves".  But the notion that all you need is faith is bunk.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 09, 2007, 02:16:13 PM
Unless you are talking about "once saved always saved" in which case I am working up to that.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: MODU on August 09, 2007, 02:18:08 PM

Waits for the discussion of _____ in order to be saved.  Just to see if you two actually get to that point.  :P

I am getting there.  The Grace of God is what "saves".  But the notion that all you need is faith is bunk.

I know.  I just want to see if you actually cover a key point of salvation.  Don't want to say what it is (yet) though.  :)


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 09, 2007, 02:30:49 PM

Waits for the discussion of _____ in order to be saved.  Just to see if you two actually get to that point.  :P

I am getting there.  The Grace of God is what "saves".  But the notion that all you need is faith is bunk.

I know.  I just want to see if you actually cover a key point of salvation.  Don't want to say what it is (yet) though.  :)

I see.  Well, I am waiting for Josh to either agree or disagree with me.  I have a feeling such things won't be worthcoming though.  Josh is probably doing the same thing now that most people do when their belief system is challenged.

"WHAT TRICKERY IS THIS!?  LISTEN NOT TO THIS MAN!"


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Gabu on August 09, 2007, 02:33:40 PM
If I may ask, what is your opinion of Matthew 25:31-46?  I've always found it interesting, as it seems to me like the most direct statement I can think of where Jesus says that faith is not enough, but perhaps, as usual, there's something I don't "get". :P


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 09, 2007, 02:36:28 PM
If I may ask, what is your opinion of Matthew 25:31-46?  I've always found it interesting, as it seems to me like the most direct statement I can think of where Jesus says that faith is not enough, but perhaps, as usual, there's something I don't "get". :P

That answers it, more or less.  I was getting to that part though.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Gabu on August 09, 2007, 02:40:13 PM
If I may ask, what is your opinion of Matthew 25:31-46?  I've always found it interesting, as it seems to me like the most direct statement I can think of where Jesus says that faith is not enough, but perhaps, as usual, there's something I don't "get". :P

That answers it, more or less.  I was getting to that part though.

Oh, okay... I'll wait and see then. :)


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 09, 2007, 03:27:00 PM
Well, just to keep things moving, I am going to assume that Josh believes the Bible says what it says that if we love Jesus, we will keep his commandments, and I will just go ahead.  Now, lets look at what some of those direct commandments are, shall we?  And I will even give them to you in KJV.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 5:16)

This is from the "don't hide your light under a bushel part".  Don't hide your goodworks, do them for God.
---------------------------------

Ye have heard that it hath been said," An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth": But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
                      (Matthew 5:38-39)

---------------------------------

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 6:1)

---------------------------------

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. (Matthew 6:5-7)

In otherwords, don't show off to others how pius you are.
---------------------------------
wink and nod to Gabu


Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.  (Matthew 25:34-36)

---------------------------------

Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 18:10)

Not only does this prove this point, but also goes against the Protestant belief that Gaurdian Angels are herecy.

--------------------------------

Here is a good one for the fundies to remember that Catholics have already come to terms with

And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw on a man casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part. (Mark 9:38-40)

In otherwords, just because they are not in your group doesn't mean they aren't Christians.

------------------------------

After telling the tale of the Good Samaritan

Then Jesus said unto him, Go, and do thou likewise. (Luke 10:37)

------------------------------

And to wrap it all up:

This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. (John 15:12)

The fact that Jesus specifically says "This is my commandment" seems to indicate this is the most important of them all.







Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 09, 2007, 03:35:54 PM
Now, you will note in each of these that Jesus is commanding an action of his disciples.  There are many more, but I picked out these ones, just because.

If you love Jesus, you will do these things.

Its a stretch, but Paul tells us love is more improtant than Faith, right?  So... wouldn't you rather love Jesus and do good things for him, as he commanded you to?


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Gabu on August 09, 2007, 03:38:52 PM
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 5:16)

...

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 6:1)

Just a random question... this probably has to do with the English in the KJV, but how are these two not mutually contradictory?


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 09, 2007, 03:49:35 PM
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 5:16)

...

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 6:1)

Just a random question... this probably has to do with the English in the KJV, but how are these two not mutually contradictory?

Context... the first one is talking about setting a good example.  The Second is talking about giving yourself a big public pat on the back.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Gabu on August 09, 2007, 03:54:55 PM
Context... the first one is talking about setting a good example.  The Second is talking about giving yourself a big public pat on the back.

Ah, okay, makes sense.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 09, 2007, 03:57:40 PM
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 5:16)

...

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 6:1)

Just a random question... this probably has to do with the English in the KJV, but how are these two not mutually contradictory?

Context... the first one is talking about setting a good example.  The Second is talking about giving yourself a big public pat on the back.

Yeah, kinda hard to think Matthew would completely contradict himself in just 30 or so verses


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Josh/Devilman88 on August 10, 2007, 05:40:51 PM
So, supersoulty you are trying to say if you don't do works for God then you can't go to even?


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 10, 2007, 07:11:25 PM
So, supersoulty you are trying to say if you don't do works for God then you can't go to even?

I am not "trying" to say anything.  I am saying that it is by our treatment of others, our love for one another and not earthly faith, per se, by which we will ultimately be judged.

 
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

Matthew 7:21

To say that I am "trying" to say anythign implies some sorta ambiguity in my statements, of which there is none.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Josh/Devilman88 on August 10, 2007, 08:52:14 PM
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

 26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.



If you read the whole thing, it is talking about the "friut" of someones life. How some people think they are saved because they have done good thing and lived a good life.
Again I say unto you, this whole chapter is talking about the friut of someones life.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 10, 2007, 09:49:42 PM
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

 26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.



If you read the whole thing, it is talking about the "friut" of someones life. How some people think they are saved because they have done good thing and lived a good life.
Again I say unto you, this whole chapter is talking about the friut of someones life.

You are attemping to use the "once saved always saved" idea to attack what I have just said.  It doesn't apply.  What Christ is saying is that we cannot think that, just because we do great thing (such as build a Church) that means we are going to go to Heaven.  I agree with oyu there,  You have to view it in temrs of first Corinthians, in that your acts must be legit acts of love, not just attempts to buy of God's judgment.

What if I could prove to you that "once saved always saved" is not correct?


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Person Man on August 10, 2007, 10:01:02 PM
Gee... I see you are debating the nature of salvation. I love those types of arguments. Josh  is trying to say that this debate doesn't exist because those who have asked for forgiveness are naturally going to do good things. Then again....

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Just because they claimed to be saved, doesn't mean that you are inside. The works of Martin Luther speak to this fact. 


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Gabu on August 10, 2007, 11:19:10 PM
This debate has pretty much convinced me of one thing: no matter what your opinion is, you can find a justification for it in the Bible. :P


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Ebowed on August 10, 2007, 11:55:55 PM
This debate has pretty much convinced me of one thing: no matter what your opinion is, you can find a justification for it in the Bible. :P

Actually, God's Word is consistent, clear, and unchanging.  Stfu hellbound heathen.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: MODU on August 12, 2007, 06:31:46 PM
This debate has pretty much convinced me of one thing: no matter what your opinion is, you can find a justification for it in the Bible. :P

Like with everything, you take a small snippet of text and you can make it mean anything.  That's why context is important.


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Frodo on August 12, 2007, 06:47:49 PM
King James' version. 


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: Person Man on August 12, 2007, 06:50:40 PM

^


Title: Re: English translations of the Bible
Post by: 12th Doctor on August 13, 2007, 10:44:17 PM
My friends, I have been delayed by my travels, but I assure you, I will advance my point, even if Josh seems to have dropped out of the debate.