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Election Archive => 2008 Elections => Topic started by: TheresNoMoney on January 03, 2008, 12:49:16 am



Title: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: TheresNoMoney on January 03, 2008, 12:49:16 am
"My name is Rudy Guiliani, and I'm here to scare the living sh*t out of you".....

Is it possible to produce an ad more over-the-top than the new Rudy ad? This reminds me of some of the most ridiculous ads from 2002, but even worse:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2iFhGtKO-Q&eurl=http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2008/1/3/0550/60229/33


Title: Re: Flipping Hilarous Rudy Ad: Are we back in 2002?
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on January 03, 2008, 12:54:15 am
Should we just pretend like these things aren't happening?


Title: Re: Flipping Hilarous Rudy Ad: Are we back in 2002?
Post by: 12th Doctor on January 03, 2008, 12:55:37 am
BUT ITS TRUE... WHAT IN THE HELL IS YOU PEOPLE'S PROBLEM?  WHY DO YOU INSIST ON STICKING YOU FINGERS IN YOUR EARS AND IGNORING THE HUGE PROBLEMS THAT ARE GOING ON AROUND US?  WHY?  RECENT EVENTS SHOULD ONLY REINFORCE THE POINT THAT THE WORLD IS BECOMING DANGEROUS VOLATILE! THE COLD WAR AIN'T GOT sh**t ON WHAT IS GOING ON TODAY... AND YET YOU PEOPLE ARE MORE WILLING TO IGNORE WHAT IS GOING ON NOW?  JESUS CHRIST CRUCIFIED... PRETENDING NOTHING IS WRONG IS WHAT GOT US HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE... WE CAN'T JUST IMAGINE OURSELVES BACK INTO THE 90'S.  F***!!!!


Title: Re: Flipping Hilarous Rudy Ad: Are we back in 2002?
Post by: Likely Voter on January 03, 2008, 12:55:45 am
omg...that is like a parody

I also dont understand what exactly is Rudy's argument....if worries over terrorism are top for you and you feel the country needs a 'tested' and 'ready' guy...then McCain is your man...not someone whose only foreign policy cred is dealing with parking tickets for UN diplomats


Title: Re: Flipping Hilarous Rudy Ad: Are we back in 2002?
Post by: TheresNoMoney on January 03, 2008, 12:56:42 am
Should we just pretend like these things aren't happening?

We shouldn't base political campaigns on trying to scare the sh*t out of people.


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: M on January 03, 2008, 12:59:59 am
I'm not the first to say it on this thread but... you don't like the ad because you don't want to think about these things. It's all not only true but the leading items on the world agenda. What the hell else are you going to vote on, saving the kangaroo rat?

The country is at war, and if our civilizational confidence is shaky, there's isn't.

Romney, Huckabee, Obama, and Edwards are singularly unequipped to handle a world in crisis.


Title: Re: Flipping Hilarous Rudy Ad: Are we back in 2002?
Post by: TheresNoMoney on January 03, 2008, 01:00:44 am
BUT ITS TRUE... WHAT IN THE HELL IS YOU PEOPLE'S PROBLEM?  WHY DO YOU INSIST ON STICKING YOU FINGERS IN YOUR EARS AND IGNORING THE HUGE PROBLEMS THAT ARE GOING ON AROUND US? 

No one's "ignoring" the problems going on in the world, they just want to handle them in a sensible manner. The Bush doctrine doesn't work, hasn't worked, and won't work in the future.

And we're sick of the Republican policy of trying to scare people to death so they will stop thinking.  And oh yeah, you need to settle down.....


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: TheresNoMoney on January 03, 2008, 01:02:15 am
I'm not the first to say it on this thread but... you don't like the ad because you don't want to think about these things.

I don't like the ad because it's sensationalized, over the top garbage designed to appeal to the worst instincts in people.  It also reminds me of a bad Saturday Night Live parody.


Title: Re: Flipping Hilarous Rudy Ad: Are we back in 2002?
Post by: ○∙◄☻tπ[╪AV┼cV└ on January 03, 2008, 01:04:23 am
BUT ITS TRUE... WHAT IN THE HELL IS YOU PEOPLE'S PROBLEM?  WHY DO YOU INSIST ON STICKING YOU FINGERS IN YOUR EARS AND IGNORING THE HUGE PROBLEMS THAT ARE GOING ON AROUND US?  WHY?  RECENT EVENTS SHOULD ONLY REINFORCE THE POINT THAT THE WORLD IS BECOMING DANGEROUS VOLATILE! THE COLD WAR AIN'T GOT sh**t ON WHAT IS GOING ON TODAY... AND YET YOU PEOPLE ARE MORE WILLING TO IGNORE WHAT IS GOING ON NOW?  JESUS CHRIST CRUCIFIED... PRETENDING NOTHING IS WRONG IS WHAT GOT US HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE... WE CAN'T JUST IMAGINE OURSELVES BACK INTO THE 90'S.  F***!!!!

That was some good satire...... Right?


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: YRABNNRM on January 03, 2008, 01:05:02 am
BUT ITS TRUE... WHAT IN THE HELL IS YOU PEOPLE'S PROBLEM?  WHY DO YOU INSIST ON STICKING YOU FINGERS IN YOUR EARS AND IGNORING THE HUGE PROBLEMS THAT ARE GOING ON AROUND US?  WHY?  RECENT EVENTS SHOULD ONLY REINFORCE THE POINT THAT THE WORLD IS BECOMING DANGEROUS VOLATILE! THE COLD WAR AIN'T GOT sh**t ON WHAT IS GOING ON TODAY... AND YET YOU PEOPLE ARE MORE WILLING TO IGNORE WHAT IS GOING ON NOW?  JESUS CHRIST CRUCIFIED... PRETENDING NOTHING IS WRONG IS WHAT GOT US HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE... WE CAN'T JUST IMAGINE OURSELVES BACK INTO THE 90'S.  F***!!!!

I'm sorry but I think you've just topped anything Naso has ever posted.

No one is trying to forget about what is going on in the world but that Giuliani ad is nothing but scare tactics and it won't work.

I'm still trying to understand what Rudy Giuliani has done to show he knows how to deal with these problems. He was Mayor after 9/11...ok....

If these are the issues that we face today it's clear that McCain is the candidate best suited to deal with them, based on his experiences.


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: The love that set me free on January 03, 2008, 01:05:37 am
If I didn't know any better I would've thought that ad was some spoof of Giuliani's campaign made by a liberal.

And yes, what gives Giuliani special qualification to handle all this?


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: M on January 03, 2008, 01:08:34 am
Giuliani gets it. His foreign policy team, led by Norman Podhoretz, is composed of people who understand that only freedom counteracts tyranny and terror.

It's a new twilit stuggle, and America can't survive a sunshine patriot. McCain gets it, but there's no doubting that Rudy does, too.


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: Everett on January 03, 2008, 01:19:16 am
oh god this is going to give me nightmares for, like, the rest of my life

i guess i have no choice but to vote for rudolph william louis "9/11" giuliani otherwise california might get set on fire :-\ :-\ :-\


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: Verily on January 03, 2008, 01:27:03 am
Giuliani gets it. His foreign policy team, led by Norman Podhoretz, is composed of people who understand that only freedom counteracts tyranny and terror.

Freedom, yes. But what freedom does Giuliani endorse? Never-ending warfare? He certainly wasn't fast to condemn Musharraf and has no intent to loosen ties with Saudi Arabia. If we are supposed to be combating terrorism with freedom, and we should be, we need to be looking at allying with democracies, not dictatorships which only further fuel the image of the US as aggressive and imperialist (regardless of whether the US actually is aggressive and imperialist; this seems to be a key blind spot).


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: MarkWarner08 on January 03, 2008, 01:34:40 am
Giuliani exploits the death of Benazir Bhutto, a true stateswoman, to win the votes of some uninformed xenophobes. This why I'll never vote for him. He's cynically manipulating the emotion of fear, he surrounds himself with neocons and considers 9/11 his reason d'etre. Once the NYC firefighters swiftboat Rudy, the Hizzoner's numbers will collapse. Unfortunately for him, they already dropped.



Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: Gabu on January 03, 2008, 01:34:51 am
Well that settles it, I'm obviously voting Giuliani now because clearly we need more of what we got with Bush in power.


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: JSojourner on January 03, 2008, 01:39:34 am
>>Giuliani gets it. His foreign policy team, led by Norman Podhoretz<<

That's all I need to hear to know Giuliani doesn't have a clue.  The neocons completely, utterly dropped the ball in Afghanistan and refused to confront Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.  These are the places where the real threats were.

Podhoretz was one of the architects of the Bush "attention span of a 7 year old" policy.  In short, can't get Osama? Convince people Saddam is the problem.  We CAN get him.  And in the process, we get to test drive lots of other lemons like...

** They will welcome us as liberators **

** We can win this "on the cheap" **

** A mushroom cloud over Washington **

** Fundamentalist Osama's in bed with Secularist Saddam **

** Mission accomplished **

Yeah -- he's  a real genius alright.  

Opponents of the war in Iraq do not have their heads in the sand, individually or collectively.  They include such radical, left wing subversives as Bob Novak, Pat Buchanan, Brent Scowcroft, Hugh Shelton, Rep. Walter Jones, Doug Bandow and Senator Chuck Hagel.

Podhoretz is a one-trick pony with one simple agenda: use the United States to destroy any and all enemies of Israel.  He's Reverend John Hagee, without the tongues-speaking and the faith healing.



Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: 12th Doctor on January 03, 2008, 01:43:28 am
>>Giuliani gets it. His foreign policy team, led by Norman Podhoretz<<

That's all I need to hear to know Giuliani doesn't have a clue.  The neocons completely, utterly dropped the ball in Afghanistan and refused to confront Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.  These are the places where the real threats were.

Podhoretz was one of the architects of the Bush "attention span of a 7 year old" policy.  In short, can't get Osama? Convince people Saddam is the problem.  We CAN get him.  And in the process, we get to test drive lots of other lemons like...

** They will welcome us as liberators **

** We can win this "on the cheap" **

** A mushroom cloud over Washington **

** Fundamentalist Osama's in bed with Secularist Saddam **

** Mission accomplished **

Yeah -- he's  a real genius alright. 

Opponents of the war in Iraq do not have their heads in the sand, individually or collectively.  They include such radical, left wing subversives as Bob Novak, Pat Buchanan, Brent Scowcroft, Hugh Shelton, Rep. Walter Jones, Doug Bandow and Senator Chuck Hagel.

Podhoretz is a one-trick pony with one simple agenda: use the United States to destroy any and all enemies of Israel.  He's Reverend John Hagee, without the tongues-speaking and the faith healing.



You know, I have met Norman Podhoretz... he helped me out with my paper for the Center of the Study of the Presidency... and he didn't seem like the Jewish Hitler, but I guess you would have more insight into that then I would.


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: 12th Doctor on January 03, 2008, 01:47:38 am
The Bush policy has failed because Bush is a total idiot who listened to some smart people, got about 1/8 of what they were saying and then put his "plan" into action.  Bush is too simple minded to understand the intellectual complexity of what other people were telling him in the beginning which is why we are in such bad shape now.  If McCain had won in 2000 the same situation would have turned out way better... and don't say "McCain wouldn't have listened to the neocons because he was their man in 2000.


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: 12th Doctor on January 03, 2008, 01:53:41 am
Giuliani exploits the death of Benazir Bhutto, a true stateswoman, to win the votes of some uninformed xenophobes. This why I'll never vote for him. He's cynically manipulating the emotion of fear, he surrounds himself with neocons and considers 9/11 his reason d'etre. Once the NYC firefighters swiftboat Rudy, the Hizzoner's numbers will collapse. Unfortunately for him, they already dropped.



This is my point dammit... saying "there is a problem and this proves it" is not exploitation.  When I think of all the ways that Clinton exploited... everyone... especially the military, I have to wonder why you people aren't up in arms over what he did... well, no, I don't have to wonder, I know... I'm not gonna bother being polite... blind partisanship is the answer.

As for your question, you are right, McCain is just as qualified... perhaps more so, but I have other reasons for supporting Rudy over McCain.


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: JSojourner on January 03, 2008, 02:03:39 am
The Bush policy has failed because Bush is a total idiot who listened to some smart people, got about 1/8 of what they were saying and then put his "plan" into action.  Bush is too simple minded to understand the intellectual complexity of what other people were telling him in the beginning which is why we are in such bad shape now.  If McCain had won in 2000 the same situation would have turned out way better... and don't say "McCain wouldn't have listened to the neocons because he was their man in 2000.

The policy failed because it's malignant and arrogant.  It reverses the strong, but humble foreign policy practiced by Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, H.W. Bush and Clinton.

We always attack those who attack us.   We attack those who attack, or at least invade and occupy, nations allied closely to us.  We do not attack (to say nothing of invading, occupying and attempting to Americanize) those who have not attacked us.

Weapons of mass destruction?  Yeah, the USSR had em.  Most of them pointed directly at our cities.  I still thank God Ronald Reagan had both the toughness and the humility to dually stand up to and dialogue with the Soviet monster.  The Chinese had and continue to have them.  But President Nixon and subsequent Presidents were smart enough to contain the threat.  

Saddam DIDN'T have them.  But still we invaded and occupied.  Meanwhile, the putrid sack of pus who DID attack us continues to live somewhere in Afghanistan or Pakistan.  Because the neocons enabled and emboldened the Decider to take his eye off the ball.  Moving the 10th Mountain Division out of Tora-Bora and into the desert makes about as much sense as transferring Norwegian ski troops to Cuba or some other tropical clime.

And rather than humbly admit they got it wrong...rather than suggesting we redouble our efforts in places where Al Qaeda actually IS...the neocons want to start a third war, with Iran.  And some favor a fourth war, with Syria.  All without a draft...without increasing taxes...without building a coalition.  They're sure if we just "step out on faith" the democracy fairies will make it all work out to our advantage in the end.

Jewish neocons are simply all about Israel, when Israel is right and when Israel is wrong.
Christian neocons are simply all about Armageddon.

I've never been so ashamed to be an American. Hopefully, voters will get it right this time.  Rudy McRompson is banking on fear getting the best of courage once again.  


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: Verily on January 03, 2008, 02:09:42 am
The Bush policy has failed because Bush is a total idiot who listened to some smart people, got about 1/8 of what they were saying and then put his "plan" into action.  Bush is too simple minded to understand the intellectual complexity of what other people were telling him in the beginning which is why we are in such bad shape now.

This is, very possibly, the biggest "stick my head in the sand and cry 'la la la'" post I have ever seen on this forum.

When the invasion of Iraq was begun, not a single neoconservative complained that their plan was not being fully followed or that Bush was messing things up. No, they cheered incessantly and uproariously. The final victory was at hand in spring of 2003.

If these were really people of "intellectual complexity" who made a fool-proof plan for the end of terrorism once and for all, don't you think they'd have objected when only 1/8 of it was being carried out? Don't you think they'd have quickly become aware that the Bush administration was incompetent? They did neither; they supported him in 2004, in 2005, and in 2006. Sure, some fell by the wayside, but those who did were not suddenly disaffected neoconservatives, they were people who changed their minds about neoconservativism altogether; Thomas Friedman springs to mind.

No, the Bush administration followed the neoconservative playbook by rote, at least until things got so bad that continuing the plan (Iran) was no longer feasible. And the neoconservatives supported him right up until he decided Iran was not getting invaded after all. If the invasion of Iran is what the great and glorious victory requires, then I am afraid you have simply lost touch with reality.


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: 12th Doctor on January 03, 2008, 02:50:51 am

The policy failed because it's malignant and arrogant.  It reverses the strong, but humble foreign policy practiced by Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, H.W. Bush and Clinton.

Ummm... those people were far, far, far from being of the same mind on foriegn policy.  I have an a habit of overgeneralizing, but that's just laughable.

Quote
We always attack those who attack us.   We attack those who attack, or at least invade and occupy, nations allied closely to us.  We do not attack (to say nothing of invading, occupying and attempting to Americanize) those who have not attacked us.

Look up some of the CIA's actions during the 50', 60's and 70's and then look at what you just said.  If you could, I would tell you to look up "Track One" and "Track Two" you can, but you won't find much.

Quote
Weapons of mass destruction?  Yeah, the USSR had em.  Most of them pointed directly at our cities.  I still thank God Ronald Reagan had both the toughness and the humility to dually stand up to and dialogue with the Soviet monster.  The Chinese had and continue to have them.  But President Nixon and subsequent Presidents were smart enough to contain the threat.

Reagan was listening to the exact same people (or at least the direct intellectual decedents) that you now deride as being terrible.  Reagan gave to hearing to people like Kissinger.  As for the issue of WMD... I refuse to accept that Saddam didn't have at least some, and there is, indeed, evidence that some existed.  The Pentagon was not completely wrong.  And at the risk of being laughed at I believe that there was a concerted effort inside the Federal Government, by groups unnamed (though not "unpatriotic liberals") to discredit Military Intelligence and derail the Bush Administrations efforts internationally... a well funded, well organized fifth column, not beholden to the the people and indifferent about the Constitution.  Though I am sure this will come back to bite me in the ass (or blow my head off) later in life, I will paraphrase John McCain and say that if you want to look into the eyes of the United States' current failures internationally, you will see three letters...

A "C". An "I". And an "A".


As for the rest of what you say, there were strategic, historical and immediate reasons for the choice of Iraq.

As for the response to the current situation in Iraq and possible invasion of Iran... I love how you think the neocons are somehow more organized than America's real enemies, but I assure you they aren't.  Even a quick and dispassionate glance at what various neocons are saying on these issues would show you that "their" opinion is actually all over the map.

And actually, many neocons have objected loudly to the way the war was carried out, and the total lack of real strategic planning on the side of the Bush Administration, particularly the "rush to Baghdad" which totally ignored that the objective of war is to destroy the enemies army, not to capture cities.  They should have used Baghdad as a albatross for the Republican Guard to hold them down and destroy them.  It would have cost more soldiers from the  outset, but it would have given us a whole year to build up before the foriegn insurgents showed up.  Many of "us" realized this at the time, but were largely ignored.

Moreover, the extend to which neocon influence has existed in the Bush Administration has been vastly exaggerated... neocons opposed many of Rumsfeld's policies, just as they opposed Cheney's dismantling of the armed forces when he was Sec. of Defense.

And, BTW... we had a coalition... a bigger one than the one that went into Iraq in 1991... sadly, it has since vanished, another product of Bush and his neglect of the State Dept with his appointment of Condi Rice... also not a neocon.


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: 12th Doctor on January 03, 2008, 02:55:01 am
Oh... and of course, the Jews never have their home countries interests in mind, right?  After all that Germany... I mean... America has done for them, they have stabbed us in the back in favor of there Jewery.


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: Lief 🐋 on January 03, 2008, 03:03:41 am
I've never understood why people pointed to Giuliani as someone with foreign policy experience. Certainly no more than a first-term Senator. He was mayor of New York City during the largest attack on that city, on any American city, in American history. Why does that suddenly make him a terrorism-fighter?  And then he walked around for a few hours before telling the firefighters to stop searching for their dead comrades. Woop-dee-doo.


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: Meeker on January 03, 2008, 03:17:46 am
Umm... question. The explosion at 0:15 - isn't that the place where that statue of Saddam once stood? I'm not really criticizing him for it, it's a minor detail... I just find it a little ironic that "Democracy under attack" as the voiceover said is the place where Saddam's statue stood for decades.


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: Likely Voter on January 03, 2008, 03:26:10 am
yes there are very bad men out there who like to kill americans. But what qualifies Rudy as the one who can do anything about it.

Also realistically is terrorism the biggest issue for the next president? What about the economy, health care, immigration, trade, etc.



Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: Eraserhead on January 03, 2008, 03:41:58 am
Well I loled.


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: Fmr President & Senator Polnut on January 03, 2008, 07:28:06 am
There's nothing wrong with highlighting your strength in an election campaign... except when all it does is expose that you've got NOTHING else to offer.

He's a one-trick pony, and even that trick is growing dull.


Title: Re: Flipping Hilarous Rudy Ad: Are we back in 2002?
Post by: tweed on January 03, 2008, 07:30:14 am
BUT ITS TRUE... WHAT IN THE HELL IS YOU PEOPLE'S PROBLEM?  WHY DO YOU INSIST ON STICKING YOU FINGERS IN YOUR EARS AND IGNORING THE HUGE PROBLEMS THAT ARE GOING ON AROUND US?  WHY?  RECENT EVENTS SHOULD ONLY REINFORCE THE POINT THAT THE WORLD IS BECOMING DANGEROUS VOLATILE! THE COLD WAR AIN'T GOT sh**t ON WHAT IS GOING ON TODAY... AND YET YOU PEOPLE ARE MORE WILLING TO IGNORE WHAT IS GOING ON NOW?  JESUS CHRIST CRUCIFIED... PRETENDING NOTHING IS WRONG IS WHAT GOT US HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE... WE CAN'T JUST IMAGINE OURSELVES BACK INTO THE 90'S.  F***!!!!

2004


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: Ye Olde Europe on January 03, 2008, 07:36:52 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2iFhGtKO-Q&eurl=http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2008/1/3/0550/60229/33

OMG, rapture is indeed coming in 2008!!!


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: Gabu on January 03, 2008, 07:37:44 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2iFhGtKO-Q&eurl=http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2008/1/3/0550/60229/33

OMG, rapture is indeed coming in 2008!!!

Pah, it came in the 1940s; didn't you play BioShock?


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: Ye Olde Europe on January 03, 2008, 07:53:41 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2iFhGtKO-Q&eurl=http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2008/1/3/0550/60229/33

OMG, rapture is indeed coming in 2008!!!

Pah, it came in the 1940s; didn't you play BioShock?

Nope, I didn't. :)


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: JSojourner on January 03, 2008, 12:13:50 pm

The policy failed because it's malignant and arrogant.  It reverses the strong, but humble foreign policy practiced by Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, H.W. Bush and Clinton.

Ummm... those people were far, far, far from being of the same mind on foriegn policy.  I have an a habit of overgeneralizing, but that's just laughable.

I never said they all had the same foreign policy. Hardly.  But with regard to the maniacs who had weapons of mass destruction (namely, the Soviets and the Red Chinese) they did.  Contain.  Negotiate. Be prepared to retaliate massively if necessary. We did fight on the battlefield in Korea, in defense of an ally who was invaded and occupied.  And because U.S. troops were attacked in the process.  We did fight in Greneda, but it was a very contained space and U.S. citizens were directly at risk. We did fight in Vietnam and, in part, that is why I did not include Lyndon Johnson in the list. Though there are many differences between Iraq and Vietnam, both are examples of unecessary, failed American interventionism.

Quote
We always attack those who attack us.   We attack those who attack, or at least invade and occupy, nations allied closely to us.  We do not attack (to say nothing of invading, occupying and attempting to Americanize) those who have not attacked us.

Look up some of the CIA's actions during the 50', 60's and 70's and then look at what you just said.  If you could, I would tell you to look up "Track One" and "Track Two" you can, but you won't find much.

Covert action is one area where the aforementioned administrations did differ.  And each took different approaches to backing various insurgencies. I have my own opinions about CIA and general American backing of coups, covert armies and revolutions. But you're equating apples to oranges.  I am talking about attacking en masse, invading and occupying an entire nation. I don't excuse the behavior or policy of past administrations, Democrat or Republican.  But no President has attacked, invaded and occupied a country that did not first attack the United States.  

I am just baffled at the neocons' inability to distinguish between Afghanistan and Iraq.


Quote
Weapons of mass destruction?  Yeah, the USSR had em.  Most of them pointed directly at our cities.  I still thank God Ronald Reagan had both the toughness and the humility to dually stand up to and dialogue with the Soviet monster.  The Chinese had and continue to have them.  But President Nixon and subsequent Presidents were smart enough to contain the threat.

Reagan was listening to the exact same people (or at least the direct intellectual decedents) that you now deride as being terrible.  Reagan gave to hearing to people like Kissinger. 

Listening is always good. I am sure Reagan, like every President UNTIL The Decider, listened to a panoply of voices. But prudence was a hallmark of his foreign and military policy. Early neocons urged him to take action against Poland when Moscow ordered the destruction of solidarity.  He did not. He certainly aided anti-Communist insurgencies.  In retrospect, some of those decision might not have been the wisest.  But I cannot blame him.  He did strike Libya.  But Libya in 1986, like Afghanistan in 2001, harbored and encouraged terrorists to attack Americans.  Specifically, U.S. troops in Germany were targeted by murdering terrorists.  Reagan took action.  Not swiftly, but thoughtfully and with input from a chorus of advisors.  When the Soviets deployed brand new, top-of-the-line weapons of mass destruction in Eastern Europe, Ronald Reagan responded.  Not by invading and occupying the Socviet Union.  But by deploying Pershing missiles in Western Europe. Gorbachev blinked and removed the SS series missiles.  And Reagan, more diplomat than cowboy, responded in kind.

But the greatest difference between Reagan and today's neocon is in outlook.  Reagan had a sunny, serene confidence.  He KNEW good would triumph over evil.  He knew Communism (at least, the putrid, oppressive Soviet and Maoist Communism) would die on the vine in the face of American strength, optimism and courage.  Neocons wring their hands, sweat bullets and cry like babies at the thought of third world religious fundamentalist bringing America to her knees. Neocons thrive on and are motivated by fear and a deep-seated belief that America can't.  Reagan, along with many other Republicans and most Democrats, know that America CAN and WILL.  If they attack us (and they very well may), we'll slaughter them. But we won't allow ourselves to become 21st century Hitlers, who are forced to invent provocations (see Operation Canned Goods) to justify uncessary wars based on fear at the best and corporate greed at the worst.

Reagan's foreign policy was hardly perfect.  Operation Sitting Duck in Lebanon was a huge mistake.  And he knew it. To this day, neocons demonize Reagan for not invading and occupying Lebanon and Syria.  (Didn't Podhoretz himself call Reagan a coward?  I can't remember.)


As for the issue of WMD... I refuse to accept that Saddam didn't have at least some, and there is, indeed, evidence that some existed. 

I am one liberal who won't discount the possibility entirely.  But so what?  As I have pointed out repeatedly, no nation ever bore such hate or malice for us as the Soviet Union. Their weapons of mass destruction could reach Chicago and Washington and Dallas and Los Angeles.  Even if Saddam had them, his WMDs might not even have been able to reach Tel Aviv.  But never mind.  We confronted the insane, maniacal Soviet dictators by matching and exceeding their strength...and by diplomatically engaging them.  If there were WMDs in Iraq, fine.  There are WMDs in Pakistan and India, too.  There are loose nukes in the former Soviet Republics. The Decider was a mindless, easily-led toy of the neocons.  And they wanted Iraqi scalps hanging from their lodgepoles because there were spectacular amonts of money to be made or because they come from a mindset believing Israel can never do wrong.

The Pentagon was not completely wrong.  And at the risk of being laughed at I believe that there was a concerted effort inside the Federal Government, by groups unnamed (though not "unpatriotic liberals") to discredit Military Intelligence and derail the Bush Administrations efforts internationally... a well funded, well organized fifth column, not beholden to the the people and indifferent about the Constitution.  Though I am sure this will come back to bite me in the ass (or blow my head off) later in life, I will paraphrase John McCain and say that if you want to look into the eyes of the United States' current failures internationally, you will see three letters...

A "C". An "I". And an "A".

I don't know enough to comment.


As for the rest of what you say, there were strategic, historical and immediate reasons for the choice of Iraq.

Strategic? Feeding the coffers of Halliburton, Blackwater and other major Bush campaign donors was certainly strategic.  It paid off in spades in 2004. Historical? Saddam did want to assassinate the first President Bush.  I suppose he could repeat his Kuwaiti adventure.  But wait -- we took care of that, didn't we?  Pretty effectively, as I remember. Immediate?  No.  The immediate threat was that filthy waste of skin named Osama.  Who we had boxed in when The Decider pulled the 10th Mountain out of Tora Bora to put them in Iraq.

As for the response to the current situation in Iraq and possible invasion of Iran... I love how you think the neocons are somehow more organized than America's real enemies, but I assure you they aren't.  Even a quick and dispassionate glance at what various neocons are saying on these issues would show you that "their" opinion is actually all over the map.

Which neocons are on record opposing an attack on Iran?

And actually, many neocons have objected loudly to the way the war was carried out, and the total lack of real strategic planning on the side of the Bush Administration, particularly the "rush to Baghdad" which totally ignored that the objective of war is to destroy the enemies army, not to capture cities.  They should have used Baghdad as a albatross for the Republican Guard to hold them down and destroy them.  It would have cost more soldiers from the  outset, but it would have given us a whole year to build up before the foriegn insurgents showed up.  Many of "us" realized this at the time, but were largely ignored.

I've heard neocons say this in retrospect.  I didn't hear a single one, unless you consider John McCain a neocon, voice these concerns before the war. And I didn't hear ANY neocons call for reinstatement of the draft or a rollback of the Bush tax cuts to help pay for the war.  But I could have missed it.


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: JSojourner on January 03, 2008, 12:15:46 pm


More from Soulty ---

And, BTW... we had a coalition... a bigger one than the one that went into Iraq in 1991... sadly, it has since vanished, another product of Bush and his neglect of the State Dept with his appointment of Condi Rice... also not a neocon.

The coalition was nothing like what invaded Iraq in 1991. For one thing, the 1991 coalition included other Arabs.  Other Muslims.  Combat troops, even.  Syrian tanks and Saudi planes. French, Saudi, and Egyptian combat troops were seriously engaged. The Decider's coalition -- at its strongest -- consisted of a powerful British force and a token Australian contingent.  The rest?  A few bomb-clearing units from Denmark and Bulgaria...some Italians guarding our planes...some Spaniards doing construction.  And most of them, as you honestly point out, are gone.  But hey -- The Decider still claims there are what?  37 nations in the coalition?  The Marshal Islands, Albania, Togo?  We can all rest easy...

I do hope you know, Soulty, that though this exchange is vigorous and sharply contentious, I really do like you and appreciate your input.  I hope you know it's not personal and if I have been nasty, accept my apologies.  Any Pennsylvanians is A-OK with me!


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: Angel of Death on January 04, 2008, 08:19:38 pm
Answer video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Pa56rwR_Qos


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on January 04, 2008, 08:27:46 pm
Answer video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Pa56rwR_Qos

HAHAH! what a wonderful video! Very original!


Title: Re: New Rudy Ad: Smell the Fear!
Post by: The love that set me free on April 15, 2009, 12:55:13 pm
What a joke old Mr. Fascist was.