Talk Elections

A man who has fathered four children by his sister lost his bid to have incest struck off the German penal code.

Germany's top court ruled that the law which makes incest a punishable offence is in line with Germany's constitution.

The Federal Constitutional Court said the law was designed to guard families against the damaging effects of incest and protect the "weaker" partner in incestuous relationships.

The court also took into consideration that children born from relationships between brothers and sisters had a greater risk of suffering genetic effects, the judges said in their 7-1 ruling.

The case was brought by Patrick S, 31, who has four daughters with sister, Susan. Two of the children are handicapped.

The couple are seeking a declaration that brothers and sisters have a right to sexual relations with one another.

Patrick S earlier received a suspended jail term for incest, then served a 25-month actual jail term and now faces a 30-month sentence because he refuses to end the relationship.

The sister has received a first conviction of incest and was placed on probation for one year.

The brother and sister have posed in the German media for romantic photos together and some Berlin politicians have supported them, contending that incest might be immoral but should not be punished by law.

The couple did not grow up together, but first met in 2000 when Patrick S, who had been adopted as a baby, looked up his birth mother and first met his sister.

The relationship began when the sister was 16. Under German law, incest is only punishable after the age of 18.

German media reports said S began caring for his sister when she was orphaned by the death of their widowed mother at 50.

Intimacy quickly followed. They now have four daughters who are aged between six years and 34 months.

The sister has also had a child by another man whom she met while Patrick S was in jail.

http://news.smh.com.au/incest-still-illegal-in-germany/20080313-1z90.html

Um... good?

And he's had a vasectomy done by now. Which the law doesn't care about.

Wacky nazis.

They can move to Portugal, it's not illegal here.

It's not banned becuase it's immoral.

Who dissented?

No, the ban was (at least officially) upheld not because it's immoral, but it was originally passed largely on such grounds.
The court's vice president, Winfried Hassemer.

()

Now this:

VIENNA, Austria (AP) -- A woman has told police that she was held prisoner in a cellar for almost 24 years by her father, who repeatedly raped her and fathered her seven children.

Lower Austria police said in a statement that the 42-year-old woman, identified as Elisabeth F., had been missing since August 29, 1984 and was found by police in the town of Amstetten on Saturday evening following a tip.

Franz Polzer, head of the Lower Austrian Bureau of Criminal Affairs, told reporters that the 73-year-old father, identified in a separate police statement as Josef F., had been taken into custody.

In a chronology of events outlined in a statement, police said Elisabeth F. had apparently sent a letter a month after her disappearance asking her parents not to search for her.

During police questioning, Elisabeth F. told police her father began sexually abusing her when she was 11 and locked her in a room in the cellar on August 28, 1984.

During the 24 years that followed, she said she was continually abused by her father and gave birth to six children, the statement said.

In 1996, she gave birth to twins but one died several days later because it was not appropriately cared for. Josef F. had then apparently removed the corpse from the cellar and burned it, the statement said.

 Police said Elisabeth F. appeared "greatly disturbed" psychologically during questioning.

She agreed to talk only after authorities assured her that she would no longer have to have contact with her father and that her children would be taken care of.

One of her children, identified as 19-year-old Kerstin F., is currently hospitalized in the Lower Austrian town of Amstetten in very serious condition.

APA cited police as saying Josef F. has been arrested but had not confessed.

APA quoted Gerhard Sedlacek, spokesman for the public prosecutor's office in St. Poelten, as saying that the surviving children -- three boys and three girls -- are aged between 5 and 20.

DNA tests are expected to determine whether Josef F. is the father of the children.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/04/27/austria.cellar.ap/index.html

Apart from wishing to note that this case would be quite illegal even without the incest ban...

What did the kids grow up like? Locked into the cellar, too?

According to what I've read so far, the 73-year old had 7 children with his daughter, of which one died right after birth in 1996. 3 of the 6 other kids were never registered with any local authority, just like their mother - who "pretended" to flee in 1984 - but was actually locked up by her father.
The 3 other children were registered and attended school. The other 3 were also locked up in the cellar and never attended school. I don´t know though if all 6 children had to live in the cellar ...
There´s also the possibility that the 73-year old raped his grandchildren. He must have been a very authoritarian personality and very abusing to his grandchildren/daughter/wife, because I can't imagine how the kids never said a word during school. Also, his wife said she experienced things at home as "common" ... :P

[shakes head in wonder] Ah, Western Europeans. Classy bunch.

That guy who locked his daughter up in the cellar just plain looks creepy:

()

Stop posting pictures of Opebo without his permission.

And now this:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/05/14/austria.family/index.html

Now, will any of you EURO 2008 fans still visit Austria, or are you going to "prefer" Switzerland ?

At least people will stop confusing us with Australians and if you decide to visit our country for the EURO, don´t get too excited if people sing "Land of the dungeons" or "Land of the Ax-Killers" instead of the Austrian national anthem "Land of the mountains, land on the river" ...

"Austria is one of those happy countries where a woman can walk across a park at night in perfect safety. It's only when she gets home when the danger begins."

No, bad. Incest should be legal.

You bumped a year and ahalf old thread just to proclaim your love of incest.

That's both a waste of time and creepy.

Face, bovvered?

While I personally find the thought of incest disgusting, what two consenting parties choose to do in the privacy of their homes is their business.

I think people will be shocked with the level of incest in the homo community.  It is treated differently.

Mind speaking English?

It's a reference to the Catherine Tate character Lauren.

Her face ein't bovvered.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DChlns6DfnU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DChlns6DfnU)

Really, bro?

Good.

Nice to see it's okay to be narrowminded on SOME issues.

Why should incest be legal? It is absolutely sickening.

Because government shouldn't enforce moral and subjective standards.

wait, doesn't the government enforce no murdering? Isn't that moral as well?

So, since there is a victim. The victim didn't consent to be killed.

Ok I get what you are getting at.
If you think of it that way, then I am inclined to agree with you. But my mind is to narrow minded, and I was raised to believe it was immoral to have sex with family members. So I will go with how I was raised on this one.

I'm not saying than this is not immoral and I don't have a opinion on incest. But, an example, I think than adultery is immoral, but I don't want to outlaw it!

I understand. But I think inset would be worse. Since adultery is more common and sort of normal. You are comparing one that is common to one that is sort of rare.

Brother-Sister incest has really only become "rare" quite recently.

Making it illegal is both useless, and utterly stupid. Consensual incest is not something the state should concern themselves with.

Looks like they appealed and lost:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17690997


^^ Isn't this inconsistent though?

That justification for a ban may apply to other unions, but those do not have the weight of traditional instincts already against them. 

Yeah, plus the whole skeeviness of the power dynamics at play almost inherently within any preexisting family unit...

Very difficult to rationally justify why incestuous relationships should be illegal.

Why are you assuming that it is being justified rationally? Or that they should be?

I don't. I was pointing out a difficulty for exaggerated rationalism, not one that I myself am struggling with. 

Understand. Misread post. I'm tired.

No problem.