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General Discussion => Religion & Philosophy => Topic started by: Compassion Fills the Void on June 20, 2008, 01:07:17 pm



Title: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: Compassion Fills the Void on June 20, 2008, 01:07:17 pm
Nope.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on June 20, 2008, 01:19:57 pm
why do we have to have these discussions?

Luke 6:5 For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.

Eph 5:3-4 3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for the Lord's people. 4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: Northam for Governor '17 on June 20, 2008, 01:21:26 pm
Nope.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: Compassion Fills the Void on June 20, 2008, 01:24:00 pm
Kevin Smith is a Christian. Take a look at his movies.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on June 20, 2008, 01:42:37 pm
Kevin Smith is a Christian. Take a look at his movies.

oh, I see, the actions of my fellow Christians are my standard, not scripture?!

look, I defend what is written in scripture; not the arguments of men


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: NDN on June 20, 2008, 02:06:46 pm
Does it harm anyone against their consent?

Yeah, that's what I thought. No.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: Keystone Phil on June 20, 2008, 02:10:36 pm
Does it harm anyone against their consent?

Yeah, that's what I thought. No.

That's not the definition of sin though.

Yes, I think it's sinful. That doesn't mean I don't do it (more than I should).

Kevin Smith is a Christian. Take a look at his movies.

Timothy McVeigh was a Christian right? In case you forgot, he was responsible for blowing up a federal building, killing nearly two hundred people. Does that make it acceptable by Christian standards?


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: John Dibble on June 20, 2008, 02:20:28 pm
Kevin Smith is a Christian. Take a look at his movies.

oh, I see, the actions of my fellow Christians are my standard, not scripture?!

look, I defend what is written in scripture; not the arguments of men
Kevin Smith is a Christian. Take a look at his movies.

Timothy McVeigh was a Christian right? In case you forgot, he was responsible for blowing up a federal building, killing nearly two hundred people. Does that make it acceptable by Christian standards?

Gotta agree with these two - the actions of people who claim to be members of a religion are not necessarily the standard by which that religion judges what is sinful/morally wrong. In the case of Christianity, as jmfcst points out, the Bible sets the standards.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: Alcon on June 20, 2008, 02:26:54 pm
Kevin Smith is a Christian. Take a look at his movies.

Tons of murders, probably most, are Christians too!


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on June 20, 2008, 02:30:00 pm
Does it harm anyone against their consent?

Yeah, that's what I thought. No.

that's the defintion of legality, not morality.  

The law doesn't, nor should it, make immorality illegal.  Otherwise, there would be no religious freedom.

What the law attempts to do, and what it should do, is defend the life and property of others.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on June 20, 2008, 02:30:17 pm
Kevin Smith is a Christian. Take a look at his movies.

Tons of murders, probably most, are Christians too!

No, only godless liberals are murderers.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: Alcon on June 20, 2008, 02:41:43 pm
that's the defintion of legality, not morality. 

Nah, not even the definition of legality.  It's the definition of morality to many of us secular folk.  The law is perfectly happy to sit idly by while you smoke and drink yourself to death with dependent children.  On the same token, it's happy to allow parents to do virtually anything short of beat their children to death, without legal intervention.  That ain't legality.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on June 20, 2008, 02:44:18 pm
that's the defintion of legality, not morality. 

Nah, not even the definition of legality.  It's the definition of morality to many of us secular folk.  The law is perfectly happy to sit idly by while you smoke and drink yourself to death with independent children.  On the same token, it's happy to allow parents to do virtually anything short of beat their children to death without legal intervention.  That ain't legality.

in your case, beatings are understandable

;)


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: Alcon on June 20, 2008, 03:06:06 pm
that's the defintion of legality, not morality. 

Nah, not even the definition of legality.  It's the definition of morality to many of us secular folk.  The law is perfectly happy to sit idly by while you smoke and drink yourself to death with independent children.  On the same token, it's happy to allow parents to do virtually anything short of beat their children to death without legal intervention.  That ain't legality.

in your case, beatings are understandable

;)

Yeah, I'd whup me too


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: NDN on June 20, 2008, 03:30:43 pm
Does it harm anyone against their consent?

Yeah, that's what I thought. No.

That's not the definition of sin though.

Yes, I think it's sinful. That doesn't mean I don't do it (more than I should).
The question could also be interpreted as asking if it's simply morally wrong.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: ?????????? on June 20, 2008, 04:27:25 pm
It's probably wrong to do but certainly not the worst thing a human could offend God with. Plus, some words we use now were non-existent during biblical times. Are those banned by the Bible as well?


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: Boris on June 20, 2008, 04:57:03 pm
The Bible clearly states that it is, so therefore, within a Christian context, jmfcst is correct.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: Keystone Phil on June 20, 2008, 09:24:27 pm
Does it harm anyone against their consent?

Yeah, that's what I thought. No.

That's not the definition of sin though.

Yes, I think it's sinful. That doesn't mean I don't do it (more than I should).
The question could also be interpreted as asking if it's simply morally wrong.

Well, I don't believe that morality is simply based on whether or not we willing go against another's wishes but I guess that's another discussion.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: Compassion Fills the Void on June 20, 2008, 10:59:47 pm
Timothy McVeigh was a Christian right?

No. He was an agnostic.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: Albus Dumbledore on June 21, 2008, 12:01:25 am
The real question is this: Is it the state's duty to enforce laws against sin?


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: Keystone Phil on June 21, 2008, 01:31:03 am
Timothy McVeigh was a Christian right?

No. He was an agnostic.

Wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh#Religious_beliefs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh#Religious_beliefs)

Religious beliefs

After his parents' divorce, McVeigh lived with his father; his sisters moved to Florida with their mother. He and his father were devout Roman Catholics who often attended daily Mass. In a recorded interview with Time Magazine[3] McVeigh professed his belief in "a God", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "never really picked it [back] up". The Guardian reported that McVeigh wrote a letter claiming to be an agnostic.[4] He was given a Catholic ritual before his execution.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: © tweed on June 21, 2008, 05:39:38 am
that blurb doesn't really contradict what BRTD said


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: dead0man on June 21, 2008, 08:37:22 am
I don't put that much power in individual words.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: JSojourner on June 21, 2008, 10:34:27 am
that's the defintion of legality, not morality. 

Nah, not even the definition of legality.  It's the definition of morality to many of us secular folk.  The law is perfectly happy to sit idly by while you smoke and drink yourself to death with independent children.  On the same token, it's happy to allow parents to do virtually anything short of beat their children to death without legal intervention.  That ain't legality.

in your case, beatings are understandable

;)

Yeah, I'd whup me too

It doesn't count if you enjoy it.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: Keystone Phil on June 21, 2008, 11:47:49 am
that blurb doesn't really contradict what BRTD said

I didn't notice the part where he claimed to be an agnostic but at the same time, he professes a faith in "a God."

Whatever the case, BRTD is a total moron for using the example of behavior of a Christian as justification for such behavior.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: PUT YOUR POM POMS DOWN on June 21, 2008, 12:31:45 pm
I don't put that much power in individual words.

This was always the correct stance to me. The intent and meaning behind the use of arbitrarily deemed "profane" words in its context is what I always regarded as potentially sinful. I've held this position steadfastly for a long time and convinced many devout believers (including my own family) that this was scripture's intention.

In the same breath, our culture has deemed these words offensive for whatever reason (or lack thereof, more often than that). With that in mind, it's probably best to abstain in order not to cause a fellow believer to stumble or confuse the mind of a non-believer into thinking you are being a hypocrite if they don't understand the nuances. See Romans 14 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+14), which, while not specifically addressing the use of culturally offensive words (such an idea did not exist when scripture was written), contains tenets that I think aptly apply.

What we arrive at is, not surprisingly, that their usage as sinfully or morally wrong (from a Christian perspective) is a grey area. In mixed company, however, it is better to abstain for their sake.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: War on Want on June 21, 2008, 12:46:14 pm
Nope, my Mom thinks it is but she doesn't count.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: The Mikado on June 21, 2008, 01:14:38 pm
Are we talking about profanity or obscenity?


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: dead0man on June 21, 2008, 07:23:31 pm
I don't put that much power in individual words.

This was always the correct stance to me. The intent and meaning behind the use of arbitrarily deemed "profane" words in its context is what I always regarded as potentially sinful. I've held this position steadfastly for a long time and convinced many devout believers (including my own family) that this was scripture's intention.

In the same breath, our culture has deemed these words offensive for whatever reason (or lack thereof, more often than that). With that in mind, it's probably best to abstain in order not to cause a fellow believer to stumble or confuse the mind of a non-believer into thinking you are being a hypocrite if they don't understand the nuances. See Romans 14 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+14), which, while not specifically addressing the use of culturally offensive words (such an idea did not exist when scripture was written), contains tenets that I think aptly apply.

What we arrive at is, not surprisingly, that their usage as sinfully or morally wrong (from a Christian perspective) is a grey area. In mixed company, however, it is better to abstain for their sake.
Yep, that's what I would have said if I wasn't lazy :)


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: Compassion Fills the Void on June 22, 2008, 01:01:47 am
that blurb doesn't really contradict what BRTD said

I didn't notice the part where he claimed to be an agnostic but at the same time, he professes a faith in "a God."

Whatever the case, BRTD is a total moron for using the example of behavior of a Christian as justification for such behavior.

Not the first time. Don't you remember my "It's OK to go to strip clubs, because I've seen strippers wearing crosses." post?


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: John Dibble on June 22, 2008, 08:12:16 am
that blurb doesn't really contradict what BRTD said

I didn't notice the part where he claimed to be an agnostic but at the same time, he professes a faith in "a God."

Whatever the case, BRTD is a total moron for using the example of behavior of a Christian as justification for such behavior.

Not the first time. Don't you remember my "It's OK to go to strip clubs, because I've seen strippers wearing crosses." post?

Yeah, and we also remember calling you a moron that time as well.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: Keystone Phil on June 22, 2008, 11:23:08 am
that blurb doesn't really contradict what BRTD said

I didn't notice the part where he claimed to be an agnostic but at the same time, he professes a faith in "a God."

Whatever the case, BRTD is a total moron for using the example of behavior of a Christian as justification for such behavior.

Not the first time. Don't you remember my "It's OK to go to strip clubs, because I've seen strippers wearing crosses." post?

So you're proving that you're simply a joke poster? Ok, fair enough.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: nclib on June 23, 2008, 09:28:03 pm
I won't address the issue of sin, since I am not religious, but I'd say profanity is morally wrong when used as harassment, but not otherwise. Also, non-profane speech used as harassment would also not be justified.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on June 24, 2008, 10:52:18 am
In the same breath, our culture has deemed these words offensive for whatever reason (or lack thereof, more often than that). With that in mind, it's probably best to abstain in order not to cause a fellow believer to stumble or confuse the mind of a non-believer into thinking you are being a hypocrite if they don't understand the nuances. See Romans 14 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+14), which, while not specifically addressing the use of culturally offensive words (such an idea did not exist when scripture was written), contains tenets that I think aptly apply.

I agree Romans 14 commands us not to offend others over non-salvational issues.  The commands of Romans 14 are situational and apply only to situations where you are in the company of those who may take offense.

---

What we arrive at is, not surprisingly, that their usage as sinfully or morally wrong (from a Christian perspective) is a grey area. In mixed company, however, it is better to abstain for their sake.

fine, but that doesn't mean profanity is acceptable when NOT in mixed company.  Example:  it wouldn't be morally acceptable for a group equally yoked believers to curse up a storm while golfing.

The following passage is NOT situational:

Eph 5:3-4 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: Northam for Governor '17 on June 24, 2008, 11:11:21 am
I have to wonder what the Biblical definition of obscenity was.  I doubt saying "F**k you!" counts as an obscenity in the eyes of G-d.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home. on June 24, 2008, 11:25:44 am
I have to wonder what the Biblical definition of obscenity was.  I doubt saying "F**k you!" counts as an obscenity in the eyes of G-d.

Matthew 5:37
Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

James 5:12  Above all, my brothers, do not swear—not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. Let your "Yes" be yes, and your "No," no, or you will be condemned.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: opebo on June 24, 2008, 11:42:11 am
Kevin Smith is a Christian. Take a look at his movies.

oh, I see, the actions of my fellow Christians are my standard, not scripture?!

look, I defend what is written in scripture; not the arguments of men

No, 'scripture' is an argument of men.


Title: Re: Is profanity sinful/morally wrong?
Post by: PUT YOUR POM POMS DOWN on June 26, 2008, 01:04:25 am
In the same breath, our culture has deemed these words offensive for whatever reason (or lack thereof, more often than that). With that in mind, it's probably best to abstain in order not to cause a fellow believer to stumble or confuse the mind of a non-believer into thinking you are being a hypocrite if they don't understand the nuances. See Romans 14 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+14), which, while not specifically addressing the use of culturally offensive words (such an idea did not exist when scripture was written), contains tenets that I think aptly apply.

I agree Romans 14 commands us not to offend others over non-salvational issues.  The commands of Romans 14 are situational and apply only to situations where you are in the company of those who may take offense.

I... I think I need a glass of water.

Quote
What we arrive at is, not surprisingly, that their usage as sinfully or morally wrong (from a Christian perspective) is a grey area. In mixed company, however, it is better to abstain for their sake.

fine, but that doesn't mean profanity is acceptable when NOT in mixed company.  Example:  it wouldn't be morally acceptable for a group equally yoked believers to curse up a storm while golfing.

The following passage is NOT situational:

Eph 5:3-4 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.

That's a fun one. The addition of "obscenity" is a curious translation that the NIV carries. Here are some alternative translations of that list in Ephesians 5:4..

Quote from: KJV
Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Quote from: NAS
and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.
Quote from: The Message
Though some tongues just love the taste of gossip, those who follow Jesus have better uses for language than that. Don't talk dirty or silly. That kind of talk doesn't fit our style. Thanksgiving is our dialect.
Quote from: Amplified
Let there be no filthiness (obscenity, indecency) nor foolish and sinful (silly and corrupt) talk, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting or becoming; but instead voice your thankfulness [to God]
Quote from: New Living
Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God.
Quote from: Contemporary English Translation
Don't use dirty or foolish or filthy words. Instead, say how thankful you are.

I think this passage has a larger meaning than to avoid certain words. These particular words have an extremely wide variety of uses in our language - sometimes they are used crudely and indecently while sometimes they are used simply to express surprise, amazement, or just to stress the intensity of something. They have legitimate uses. What I have always believed that this verse is getting at is to avoid larger sins of the tongue - gossip, especially. Communication is much broader than simple, individual words. What are you actually saying? What are you trying to actually express? What is the meaning of the statement? The words that compose the statement are powerless if you take away their status - but the statement itself can be devastating or uplifting, with whatever it is composed. That is the beauty of language. Now, then, "swear" words are never really necessary for communication. You don't have to use them. But by getting offended because of their presence alone, besides the intent and meaning behind a statement - that is missing the entire point. It is reinforcing a petty cultural rule.

And, I might add, when the Bible talks about "swearing" it is talking about taking oaths. When it talks about "cursing" it is referring to damning. Every time you misinterpret Scripture to reinforce your own selfish biases, baby Jesus cries.