Talk Elections

Election Archive => Survivor => Topic started by: big bad fab on June 09, 2009, 05:32:45 PM



Title: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- winner: Willy BRANDT, over Adenauer !
Post by: big bad fab on June 09, 2009, 05:32:45 PM
1. Otto von Bismarck (1867-1890) eliminated round seven
2. Leo von Caprivi (1890-1894) eliminated round eleven
3. Chlodwig zu Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst (1894-1900) eliminated round ten
4. Bernhard von Bülow (1900-1909) eliminated round nine
5. Theobald von Bethmann-Hollweg (1909-1917) eliminated round eight
6. Georg Michaelis (1917) eliminated round six
7. Georg von Hertling (1917-1918) eliminated round fourteen
8. Maximilian von Baden (1918) eliminated round fifteen
9. Friedrich Ebert (1918-1919) eliminated round twenty-six
10. Philipp Scheidemann (1919) eliminated round thirty
11. Gustav Bauer (1919-1920) eliminated round seventeen
12. Hermann Müller (1920 and 1928-1930) eliminated round nineteen
13. Konstantin Fehrenbach (1920-1921) eliminated round twenty-three
14. Joseph Wirth (1921-1922) eliminated round twenty-seven
15. Wilhelm Cuno (1922-1923) eliminated round thirteen
16. Gustav Stresemann (1923) eliminated round twenty-four
17. Wilhelm Marx (1923-1925 and 1926-1928) eliminated round thirty-one
18. Hans Luther (1925-1926) eliminated round twelve
19. Heinrich Brüning (1930-1932) eliminated round sixteen
20. Franz von Papen (1932) eliminated round four
21. Kurt von Schleicher (1932-1933) eliminated round five
22. Adolf Hitler (1933-1945) eliminated round one
23. Joseph Goebbels (1945) eliminated round two
24. Lutz Schwerin von Krosigk (1945) eliminated round three
25. Konrad Adenauer (1949-1963) eliminated round thirty-two
26. Ludwig Erhard (1963-1966) eliminated round twenty-two
27. Kurt Georg Kiesinger (1966-1969) eliminated round eighteen
Winner
28. Willy Brandt (1969-1974)
Winner
29. Walter Scheel (1974) eliminated round twenty-one
30. Helmut Schmidt (1974-1982) eliminated round twenty-nine
31. Helmut Kohl (1982-1998) eliminated round twenty
32. Gerhard Schröder (1998-2005) eliminated round twenty-five
33. Angela Merkel (2005- ?) eliminated round twenty-eight

Results :
round one: Hitler 9, Bismarck 1
round two: Goebbels 8, Bismarck 1, Scheel 1, Merkel 1
round three: Krosigk 4, Bismarck 2, Schleicher 2, Merkel 1
round four: Papen 3, Bismarck 2, Schleicher 2
round five: Schleicher 4, Bismarck 1, Michaelis 1
round six: Michaelis 4, Bismarck 2, Erhard 1
round seven: Bismarck 2, Bülow 1, Bethmann-Hollweg 1, von Baden 1
round eight: Bethmann-Hollweg 2, Bülow 1, Caprivi 1, Hertling 1
round nine: Bülow 3, von Baden 1, Hohenlohe 1
round ten: Hohenlohe 3, Caprivi 2, Luther 1
round eleven: Caprivi 5, Luther 1
round twelve: Luther 3, Cuno 2
round thirteen: Cuno 4, Hertling 3
round fourteen: Hertling 8, Cuno 1 (invalid)
round fifteen: von Baden 4, Bauer 1, Müller 1, Erhard 1, Stresemann 1
round sixteen: Brüning 5, Bauer 4, Erhard 2
round seventeen: Bauer 3, Erhard 1, Kohl 1
round eighteen: Kiesinger 3, Kohl 2, Müller 1, Stresemann 1
round nineteen: Müller 4, Erhard 3, Stresemann 1
round twenty: Kohl 5, Schröder 2
round twenty-one: Scheel 9, Schmidt 1
round twenty-two: Erhard 6, Schröder 4, Schmidt 1
round twenty-three: Fehrenbach 3, Schröder 1, Stresemann 1
round twenty-four: Stresemann 5, Schröder 1
round twenty-five: Schröder 5, Wirth 3, Ebert 1, Merkel 1
round twenty-six: Ebert 3, Wirth 2, Merkel 1, Schmidt 1
round twenty-seven: Wirth 6, Schmidt 4, Merkel 1
round twenty-eight: Merkel 7, Schmidt 3
round twenty-nine: Schmidt 5, Brandt 1, Marx 1, Scheidemann 1
round thirty: Scheidemann 5, Marx 2, Adenauer 2
round thirty-one: Marx 4, Adenauer 3
round thirty-two: Adenauer 10, Brandt 8
winner: Brandt



Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round TWO
Post by: big bad fab on June 09, 2009, 05:34:11 PM
Yep, Hitler hasn't received 100 % in round one....
See, Lief, nothing is absolutely sure :)

Anyway, without any surprise for this round:
Goebbels


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round TWO
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on June 09, 2009, 05:36:22 PM
     Goebbels


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round TWO
Post by: Hash on June 09, 2009, 05:42:42 PM
Joseph Goebbels


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round TWO
Post by: Platypus on June 09, 2009, 06:25:50 PM
Please please please keep it in one thread, Filliatre.

Also, Goebbels


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round TWO
Post by: Sensei on June 09, 2009, 06:28:48 PM
Merkel, duh


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round TWO
Post by: big bad fab on June 10, 2009, 02:02:28 AM
Please please please keep it in one thread, Filliatre.

Why not, but what's the problem ? Does it take too much space and push other threads on the 2nd page too quickly ? Or do you want votes' "history" in the same thread ?
Looking forward to your answer !


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round TWO
Post by: Platypus on June 10, 2009, 02:03:17 AM
Both, but particularly the first concern.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round TWO
Post by: GMantis on June 10, 2009, 03:01:57 AM
Joseph Goebbels


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round TWO
Post by: Middle-aged Europe on June 10, 2009, 05:23:22 AM
Walter Scheel, because he was no Chancellor.

(There's no formal position of "Acting chancellor" in Germany and almost nobody in Germany would claim that Scheel was Chancellor once. He was foreign minister and vice chancellor and for a few days during his term there wasn't a Chancellor, so he was the highest-ranking government official for this period of time. If we pursue the nitpicking even further: Scheel wasn't acting chancellor, he was acting head of government. You're Chancellor if you're elected by the Bundestag. No election, no Chancellor. :P )


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round TWO
Post by: Magic 8-Ball on June 10, 2009, 05:41:03 AM
Joseph Goebbels


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round TWO
Post by: Franzl on June 10, 2009, 06:26:07 AM
Goebbels


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round TWO
Post by: big bad fab on June 10, 2009, 08:39:05 AM
Walter Scheel, because he was no Chancellor.

(There's no formal position of "Acting chancellor" in Germany and almost nobody in Germany would claim that Scheel was Chancellor once. He was foreign minister and vice chancellor and for a few days during his term there wasn't a Chancellor, so he was the highest-ranking government official for this period of time. If we pursue the nitpicking even further: Scheel wasn't acting chancellor, he was acting head of government. You're Chancellor if you're elected by the Bundestag. No election, no Chancellor. :P )

True, there isn't any "acting chancellor", but article 69 of German Basic Law is about the deputy federal Chancellor and about the fact that the president is able to ask a minister to take care of business during a vacancy. Hasn't Scheel been asked to rule the transition ?

One more evidence that it's better to ask everyone before launching a Survivor which is more than a list completely decided only by its "creator"...

Anyway, I won't change the list now and, as I've said before, Scheidemann hadn't the title of Chancellor.
And I may add that Krosigk refused to hold the title of Chancellor of the Reich, but it was pointless since he acted during only a few days and his government wasn't agreed by the Allies.

So let's keep those 3 exceptions, in one way or another.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round TWO
Post by: You kip if you want to... on June 10, 2009, 10:16:44 AM
23. Joseph Goebbels (1945)


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round TWO
Post by: minionofmidas on June 10, 2009, 10:40:32 AM
Bismarck. Same reasoning as before.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round THREE
Post by: big bad fab on June 10, 2009, 05:30:54 PM
Results of round two: Goebbels is out, but not with all the votes.

ROUND THREE IS OPEN

And I vote for Krosigk,

judged at Nuremberg, not exactly a nice guy, another hypocritical man, who wasn't a member of the NSDAP, but who was a real supporter and an actor.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round THREE
Post by: Hash on June 10, 2009, 07:23:27 PM
Otto von Bismarck


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round THREE
Post by: GMantis on June 11, 2009, 12:27:58 AM
Lutz Schwerin von Krosigk


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round THREE
Post by: Platypus on June 11, 2009, 01:11:29 AM
Krosigk


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round THREE
Post by: Magic 8-Ball on June 11, 2009, 01:16:42 AM
Krosigk


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round THREE
Post by: minionofmidas on June 11, 2009, 04:18:34 AM
Bismarck.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round THREE
Post by: Middle-aged Europe on June 11, 2009, 09:30:47 AM
Kurt von Schleicher


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round THREE
Post by: You kip if you want to... on June 11, 2009, 10:12:42 AM
Merkel


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round THREE
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on June 11, 2009, 04:15:03 PM
Kurt von Schleicher


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round FOUR
Post by: big bad fab on June 11, 2009, 06:12:20 PM
Krosigk fell in round 3.

ROUND FOUR IS OPEN

And I vote fo Franz von Papen,

a bad conservative, one of those who paved the way for Hitler.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round THREE
Post by: Hash on June 11, 2009, 06:18:46 PM
Krosigk fell in round 2.

ROUND THREE IS OPEN

And I vote fo Franz von Papen,

a bad conservative, one of those who paved the way for Hitler.

Four, actually.

I second your vote for Franz von Papen. An horrible piece of crap.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round FOUR
Post by: SUSAN CRUSHBONE on June 11, 2009, 07:07:24 PM
Krosigk fell in round 2.

ROUND THREE IS OPEN

And I vote fo Franz von Papen,

a bad conservative, one of those who paved the way for Hitler.

Four, actually.

I second your vote for Franz von Papen. An horrible piece of crap.
I third.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round THREE
Post by: Platypus on June 11, 2009, 08:32:23 PM
Otto von Bismarck


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round THREE
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on June 12, 2009, 02:09:16 AM
Kurt von Schleicher


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round THREE
Post by: minionofmidas on June 12, 2009, 02:59:21 AM
Bismarck


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round FOUR
Post by: big bad fab on June 12, 2009, 03:09:40 AM
Krosigk fell in round 2.

ROUND THREE IS OPEN

And I vote fo Franz von Papen,

a bad conservative, one of those who paved the way for Hitler.

Four, actually.

I second your vote for Franz von Papen. An horrible piece of crap.
I third.

Thanks guys.
Yep, I don't sleep enough these times...
Fixed.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round FOUR
Post by: big bad fab on June 12, 2009, 03:16:10 AM
I'm surprised about votes on Bismarck so early.

He was, granted, a Prussian militarist. And his images with his helmet aren't very smiling :)

But, on the other hand, a sort of small Welfare State was born under his rule in Germany.
Republican France, enlightened Italy, sophisticated Britain came later on this path. And eternal Russia never.

As for Schleicher, he was the last attempt to avoid Hitler. Sure, not a perfect democrat, but different from Papen, who supported Hitler and took a part in his regime, at least in the beginning.

Of course, it's fine to have some suspense after the 3 obvious Nazis or proxies !


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round FOUR
Post by: minionofmidas on June 12, 2009, 03:40:45 AM
Bismarck ended my country's independence. What do you expect? (Yeah, I know. My ancestors only started moving here twenty years after that. :) )
Frankfurt remained a city under very real military occupation for half the "German Empire" period of Prussia's history.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round FOUR
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on June 12, 2009, 06:12:35 AM

As for Schleicher, he was the last attempt to avoid Hitler. Sure, not a perfect democrat, but different from Papen, who supported Hitler and took a part in his regime, at least in the beginning.


Both, von Schleicher and von Papen were very bad politicans. There is no big difference. I know there is a book from Friedrich-Karl von Plehwe with the name "Kurt von Schleicher. Weimars letzte Chance gegen Hitler" (Kurt von Schleicher. Weimars last chance against Hitler), but this is more a joke. When Schleicher was the last chance, then there was no chance.

Schleicher and Papen were in the first big friends, after Hindenburg fires Papen they were no friends anymore. Schleicher had a big influence to Hindenburg and with the election of this man it was the beginning of the end.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round FOUR
Post by: GMantis on June 12, 2009, 07:47:10 AM
Kurt von Schleicher


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round FIVE
Post by: big bad fab on June 12, 2009, 05:54:45 PM
Von Papen out after round four, but with only a plurality of votes. Granted, our electorate is tinier and tinier... Please vote, guys !

ROUND FIVE IS OPEN

Now that Papen is out and even if some WWI chancellors are "tempting" choices, I vote for

Kurt von Schleicher


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round FIVE
Post by: Hash on June 12, 2009, 06:11:45 PM
Kurt von Schleicher


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round FIVE
Post by: Platypus on June 12, 2009, 09:53:44 PM
Georg Michaelis


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round FIVE
Post by: GMantis on June 13, 2009, 03:23:34 AM
Kurt von Schleicher


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round FIVE
Post by: minionofmidas on June 13, 2009, 03:35:03 AM
Bismarck


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round FIVE
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on June 13, 2009, 07:58:34 AM
Kurt von Schleicher


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round SIX
Post by: big bad fab on June 14, 2009, 03:08:52 AM
Schleicher is out after round five.

ROUND SIX IS OPEN

I vote for Michaelis.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round SIX
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on June 14, 2009, 03:43:24 AM
Now it will be more interesting, after all nazi and pre-nazi chancellor are eleminated.

I vote for: Georg Michaelis

He was a very incompetent chancellor.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round SIX
Post by: minionofmidas on June 14, 2009, 03:46:57 AM
Bismarck


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round SIX
Post by: Middle-aged Europe on June 14, 2009, 05:44:43 AM
Ludwig Erhard

Reason: Mediocre Chancellor. His whole reputation stems from his time as Minister of Economics.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round SIX
Post by: minionofmidas on June 14, 2009, 05:51:16 AM
Ludwig Erhard

Reason: Mediocre Chancellor. His whole reputation stems from his time as Minister of Economics.
Actually, his reputation mostly stems from his time as Director of Economics of the Bizonal Economic Council... the most powerful German-held position in Germany at the time.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round SIX
Post by: Hash on June 14, 2009, 06:30:16 AM
Georg Michaelis. An incompetent fool.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round SIX
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on June 14, 2009, 09:34:54 AM
quote author=Old Europe link=topic=97206.msg2034002#msg2034002 date=1244976283]
Ludwig Erhard

Reason: Mediocre Chancellor. His whole reputation stems from his time as Minister of Economics.
[/quote]

Ludwig Erhard was the worst chancellor after the WW2, but when you see at some chancellor in the empire or Weimar times he wasn't so bad.

Okay, he was a good minister of economics and a bad chancellor, but to vote so early him is to much.


I'm from Bavaria and here exists not so many fans of Bismark (maybe in my region franconia more like in old Bavaria), but he was a very good man.

@ Lewis

Hessen and Frankfurt was in the time before Bismark official independent, but in reality nothing. The big countries like Prussia,  Austria and France make with them what they want. This isn't independent.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round SIX
Post by: GMantis on June 14, 2009, 12:23:19 PM
Bismarck organized the Berlin congress, so I'm voting for him.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round SIX
Post by: minionofmidas on June 14, 2009, 01:12:35 PM
Hessen and Frankfurt was in the time before Bismark official independent, but in reality nothing. The big countries like Prussia,  Austria and France make with them what they want. This isn't independent.
That's just as independent as most of the world's countries today.

Frankfurt's last head of state hanged himself after annexation, btw. He has a short residential street named after him. ;D


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round SIX
Post by: GMantis on June 14, 2009, 03:04:41 PM
Hessen and Frankfurt was in the time before Bismark official independent, but in reality nothing. The big countries like Prussia,  Austria and France make with them what they want. This isn't independent.
That's just as independent as most of the world's countries today.

Frankfurt's last head of state hanged himself after annexation, btw. He has a short residential street named after him. ;D
Didn't the unification of Germany enjoy popular suppport? At least in the central parts of the country?


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round SIX
Post by: minionofmidas on June 14, 2009, 03:15:47 PM
Didn't the unification of Germany enjoy popular suppport? At least in the central parts of the country?
There was no opinion polling at the time. There was very little tradition of mass popular turnout in elections, too - that only began soon after.
Broadly speaking, and in as far as these things can be determined, there was popular support for  unification of Germany under Prussian leadership, but not for the annexations that went at the same time (Hesse Kassel partially excepted due to the immense unpopularity of its own inbred and incompetent ruling family) - A Hanoverian regionalist party protesting annexation by Prussia would continue into the 20th century. And there were misgivings about just how much power Prussia wielded within the new state, especially about Bismarck leading both governments at once.
Feelings on leaving Austria out entirely were probably much more mixed - the idea was certainly not what you'd call "popular", but the issue had festered for 20-odd years and there was no easy alternative solution. More of a case of people accepting the seemingly inevitable.
Of course, in 1866 it was the "North German Federation" as yet, not the "German Empire". Prussian dominance would be checked to a degree by the inclusion of Bavaria etc, but in 1866 just *how* short an episode the North German Federation would prove could not be foreseen.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round SIX
Post by: Platypus on June 14, 2009, 10:32:28 PM
Michaelis, and now i'm going to stop voting until I know who the majority of the remaining chancellors are.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round SIX
Post by: big bad fab on June 15, 2009, 02:14:24 AM
Michaelis, and now i'm going to stop voting until I know who the majority of the remaining chancellors are.
Do you mean you need some time to read on them ?


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round SIX
Post by: big bad fab on June 15, 2009, 03:43:40 AM
Michaelis is down after round six.

ROUND SEVEN IS OPEN

I vote for Bethmann-Hollweg.
Sure, more moderate than Hindenburg and Ludendorff, but, still, WWI chancellor.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round SEVEN
Post by: Hash on June 15, 2009, 06:46:13 AM
Maximilian von Baden

Erich Eyck isn't too bad on Bethmann-Hollweg, and considering how much of a Democrat and monarchy-hater he was, that must mean something.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round SEVEN
Post by: big bad fab on June 15, 2009, 07:35:09 AM
Maximilian von Baden

Erich Eyck isn't too bad on Bethmann-Hollweg, and considering how much of a Democrat and monarchy-hater he was, that must mean something.
You're right and we are here in periods on which my knowledge is weak.

On the other hand, Maximilian von Baden gathered ministers from all parties, IIRC. So, not too bad considering the edge on which Germany was at the time.
And he didn't contribute to the myth of the "knife stabbing in the back" (or whatever the English equivalent for "le coup de poignard dans le dos").


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round SEVEN
Post by: Hash on June 15, 2009, 07:38:01 AM
Maximilian von Baden

Erich Eyck isn't too bad on Bethmann-Hollweg, and considering how much of a Democrat and monarchy-hater he was, that must mean something.
You're right and we are here in periods on which my knowledge is weak.

Oh, Bethmann-Hollweg isn't a Saint, far from it. All World War I chancellors sucked, and their power was extremely limited thanks to the Supreme Command's quasi-dictatorship.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round SEVEN
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on June 15, 2009, 10:19:20 AM
Bernhard von Bülow

I think he destroys all relations to the other European powers.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round SEVEN
Post by: GMantis on June 15, 2009, 10:39:44 AM
Otto von Bismarck


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round SEVEN
Post by: minionofmidas on June 15, 2009, 12:22:26 PM
Bismarck


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round EIGHT
Post by: big bad fab on June 16, 2009, 05:16:07 AM
Bismarck is out !
With 2 votes out of 5... OMG, quite difficult to grasp the attention of forumers...

ROUND EIGHT IS OPEN.

And I vote for Bethmann-Hollweg.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round EIGHT
Post by: Hash on June 16, 2009, 07:42:45 AM
Georg von Hertling


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round EIGHT
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on June 16, 2009, 08:36:42 AM
Bernhard von Bülow


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round EIGHT
Post by: minionofmidas on June 16, 2009, 12:14:50 PM
VICTORY!

Leo von Caprivi


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round EIGHT
Post by: big bad fab on June 16, 2009, 03:37:50 PM
I'm afraid we will face a 1-1-1-1-1 result...
Please send PM to other forumers... we need voters !


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round EIGHT - All of you can vote !
Post by: Hash on June 16, 2009, 03:53:31 PM
I'm perfectly ready to change my vote if a 1-1-1-1-1 tie arises.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round EIGHT - All of you can vote !
Post by: big bad fab on June 16, 2009, 04:02:10 PM
I'm perfectly ready to change my vote if a 1-1-1-1-1 tie arises.
We'll see, let's wait for the 24 hours.

In this tiny Survivor, I don't want to break a tie myself (I intend to do a far bigger Survivor and one with many likely voters... there, I will break ties myself !).


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round EIGHT - All of you can vote !
Post by: Nhoj on June 16, 2009, 04:53:08 PM
Theobald von Bethmann-Hollweg
ill break the tie for you.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round NINE - All of you can vote !
Post by: big bad fab on June 17, 2009, 05:38:31 AM
Bethmann-Hollweg was finally ousted during round eight.
(I must say I have NOT sent a message to our dear tie-breaker ! In fact, I only wrote to Old Europe, as he's in Germany, just to remind him of our Survivor).

ROUND NINE IS OPEN

And I vote for Bülow.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round NINE - All of you can vote !
Post by: Hash on June 17, 2009, 07:01:43 AM
Bernhard von Bülow


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round NINE - All of you can vote !
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on June 17, 2009, 08:47:11 AM
Bernhard von Bülow


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round NINE - All of you can vote !
Post by: Middle-aged Europe on June 17, 2009, 02:12:09 PM
Max von Baden


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round TEN - All of you can vote !
Post by: big bad fab on June 18, 2009, 07:06:06 AM
Bülow is out.

ROUND TEN IS OPEN

And I vote for Hohenlohe.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round TEN - All of you can vote !
Post by: Hash on June 18, 2009, 07:11:59 AM
Chlodwig zu Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round TEN - All of you can vote !
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on June 18, 2009, 09:58:24 AM
18. Hans Luther (1925-1926)


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round TEN - All of you can vote !
Post by: minionofmidas on June 18, 2009, 11:29:17 AM
Caprivi


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round TEN - All of you can vote !
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on June 18, 2009, 07:57:29 PM
Caprivi


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round ELEVEN - All of you can vote !
Post by: big bad fab on June 19, 2009, 06:50:57 AM
Prinz Hohenlohe is out.

ROUND ELEVEN IS OPEN

And, without any surprise, I vote for Caprivi.


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round ELEVEN - All of you can vote !
Post by: Hash on June 19, 2009, 06:53:35 AM
Caprivi Strip


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round ELEVEN - All of you can vote !
Post by: big bad fab on June 19, 2009, 07:42:56 AM

By grasping this territory inside the German South-West of Africa, Caprivi appears to be on par with Stalin in fine territorial cutting... (see Ferghana)


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round ELEVEN - All of you can vote !
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on June 19, 2009, 09:51:42 AM
Hans Luther


Title: Re: German Chancellors Survivor - Round ELEVEN - All of you can vote !
Post by: Edu on June 19, 2009, 09:54:34 AM
Caprivi


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR - Round Eleven - all of you can vote !
Post by: minionofmidas on June 19, 2009, 12:16:53 PM
Caprivi


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR - Round Eleven - all of you can vote !
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on June 19, 2009, 08:44:35 PM
Caprivi


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR - Round Twelve - all of you can vote !
Post by: big bad fab on June 20, 2009, 01:52:02 PM
Caprivi is out and nearly all "Kaiserish" chancellors are down.

ROUND TWELVE IS OPEN
(with a little delay due to my elder son's birthday... 9 years old !)

Hertling is tempting in order to finish all those old chancellors, but Hans-im-Glück is right: Luther was an ambassador of Nazi Germany from 1933 to 1937.

So, I vote for Luther.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR - Round Twelve - all of you can vote !
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on June 20, 2009, 02:43:10 PM

Hertling is tempting in order to finish all those old chancellors, but Hans-im-Glück is right: Luther was an ambassador of Nazi Germany from 1933 to 1937.

So, I vote for Luther.

I vote also for Hans Luther ;)

Not only that he was an ambassador for the Nazi. In his chancellorship he makes many wrong decisions. Maybe he was a good president of the Reichsbank, but as chancellor a terrible politician.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR - Round Twelve - all of you can vote !
Post by: big bad fab on June 20, 2009, 03:45:21 PM

Hertling is tempting in order to finish all those old chancellors, but Hans-im-Glück is right: Luther was an ambassador of Nazi Germany from 1933 to 1937.

So, I vote for Luther.

I vote also for Hans Luther ;)

Not only that he was an ambassador for the Nazi. In his chancellorship he makes many wrong decisions. Maybe he was a good president of the Reichsbank, but as chancellor a terrible politician.
Hertling and Cuno are next on my list !
I'm eager to come to "fine" (or less bad) Weimar and modern chancellors.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR - Round Twelve - all of you can vote !
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on June 20, 2009, 04:49:10 PM

Hertling is tempting in order to finish all those old chancellors, but Hans-im-Glück is right: Luther was an ambassador of Nazi Germany from 1933 to 1937.

So, I vote for Luther.

I vote also for Hans Luther ;)

Not only that he was an ambassador for the Nazi. In his chancellorship he makes many wrong decisions. Maybe he was a good president of the Reichsbank, but as chancellor a terrible politician.
Hertling and Cuno are next on my list !
I'm eager to come to "fine" (or less bad) Weimar and modern chancellors.

That is quite the same like my opinion. Cuno and Herting are on my list the next too. The interesting thing is more what is the list of the democratic Weimar chancellor (especial when comes Brüning) and who's the best of the modern time.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR - Round Twelve - all of you can vote !
Post by: minionofmidas on June 21, 2009, 04:18:36 AM
Oh, whatever. Hans Luther.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR - Round Twelve - all of you can vote !
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on June 21, 2009, 10:04:57 AM
Cuno, a total failure as Chancellor.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR - Round Twelve - all of you can vote !
Post by: Hash on June 21, 2009, 12:33:53 PM
Cuno, the first of the incompetent "expert" failures.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR - Round Thirteen - all of you can vote !
Post by: big bad fab on June 21, 2009, 03:01:58 PM
Luther is down, but Cuno not far behind (oh, well, we were only five to vote...)

ROUND THIRTEEN IS OPEN

Herting, Cuno, Hertling, Cuno,... mmmmh

Let's have some suspense: I vote for Hertling.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR - Round Thirteen - all of you can vote !
Post by: minionofmidas on June 21, 2009, 03:04:18 PM
Hertling


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR - Round Thirteen - all of you can vote !
Post by: Hash on June 21, 2009, 03:54:13 PM
Cuno


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR - Round Thirteen - all of you can vote !
Post by: big bad fab on June 22, 2009, 06:22:23 AM
Bump
(no, there isn't any chancellor named Horst von Bump... that's just we don't have enough voters)


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR - Round Thirteen - all of you can vote !
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on June 22, 2009, 09:05:58 AM
It's no question for me:

Cuno


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR - Round Thirteen - all of you can vote !
Post by: tmthforu94 on June 22, 2009, 11:01:02 AM
Hertling


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR - Round Thirteen - all of you can vote !
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on June 22, 2009, 11:35:22 AM
Cuno again.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR - Round Thirteen - all of you can vote !
Post by: big bad fab on June 23, 2009, 01:44:57 AM
Guys, feel free to PM some other forumers, so that we can resolve our tie: I prefer it to be resolved by more voters, even though I'm OK to break it if we can't add more of them.

EDIT: I've just PMed Old Europe, as he's German, Hughento as he promised to vote again one day, and most recent voters: Jarl, Edu and Nhoj.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR - Round Thirteen - all of you can vote !
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on June 23, 2009, 02:31:43 AM
     Hertling


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR - Round Thirteen - HELP US BREAK A TIE !
Post by: big bad fab on June 23, 2009, 06:21:55 AM
Gosh, tied again...

We aren't in a hurry and it's beginning to be interesting, so I'll wait until tonight (European continental time), i.e. 10 hours from now.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor - Round Thirteen - HELP US BREAK A TIE !
Post by: Franzl on June 23, 2009, 10:43:50 AM
I'll say Cuno.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor - Round Fourteen - all of you can vote !
Post by: big bad fab on June 23, 2009, 11:16:10 AM
The hyper-inflation chancellor is out !

After a very close round... and some neutral PMs from your organizer... who stupidly wasted his own possibility to vote for Cuno...

Thanks to those who took their part in helping to break the tie.

ROUND FOURTEEN IS OPEN

And I vote for Hertling again.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor - Round Fourteen - all of you can vote !
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on June 23, 2009, 02:57:19 PM
Georg von Hertling

This round it'll be not close race ;)


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor - Round Fourteen - all of you can vote !
Post by: minionofmidas on June 23, 2009, 03:09:00 PM
Hertling


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor - Round Fourteen - all of you can vote !
Post by: Hash on June 23, 2009, 03:41:32 PM
Georg von Hertling


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor - Round Fourteen - all of you can vote !
Post by: tmthforu94 on June 23, 2009, 04:44:56 PM
Hertling


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor - Round Fourteen - all of you can vote !
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on June 23, 2009, 05:28:17 PM
Hertling


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor - Round Fourteen - all of you can vote !
Post by: Edu on June 24, 2009, 12:17:46 AM
Georg von Hertling


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor - Round Fourteen - all of you can vote !
Post by: Magic 8-Ball on June 24, 2009, 01:13:10 AM
Cuno.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor - Round Fourteen - all of you can vote !
Post by: GMantis on June 24, 2009, 01:17:30 AM
Georg von Hertling


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor - Round Fourteen - all of you can vote !
Post by: big bad fab on June 24, 2009, 03:16:54 AM
Cuno is already out.
You can change your vote if you want.
;)


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor - Round Fifteen - just WEIMAR and MODERN ones left !
Post by: big bad fab on June 24, 2009, 10:56:39 AM
Hertling is beaten with a Hitler-like majority, if I can write it like that...

One invalid vote for Cuno, but our dear pal was PMed as a former voter in this survivor, when we had a tie during last round, but he probably came too late: that would have meant a even clearer victory for Cuno in round 13.
So, no regret.

ROUND FIFTEEN IS OPEN

Difficult choices, now.

But I vote for Gustav Bauer: not a very charismatic guy and some scandals around him.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor- Round 15- come & vote: just WEIMAR + MODERN left !
Post by: big bad fab on June 24, 2009, 02:57:55 PM
For the "old timers" of this survivor: topic's title is not entirely accurate, as Max von Baden isn't a Weimar chancellor.
But I need to appeal to the biggest number of voters...

I hope you'll forgive me ! ;)


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor- Round 15- come & vote: just WEIMAR + MODERN left !
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on June 24, 2009, 03:45:58 PM
No question.

Ludwig Erhard (1963-1966)

He was a good minister of economy, but a very bad chancellor. He had no qualification for this job. He was the worse in the federal republic.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor- Round 15- come & vote: just WEIMAR + MODERN left !
Post by: GMantis on June 24, 2009, 03:54:54 PM
Maximilian von Baden
For being completely powerless.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor - Round Fifteen - just WEIMAR and MODERN ones left !
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on June 24, 2009, 04:02:11 PM
Stresemann

Not a bad Foreign Minister, but a failure as Chancellor.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor- Round 15- come & vote: just WEIMAR + MODERN left !
Post by: big bad fab on June 24, 2009, 04:59:31 PM
But, still, his behaviour helped the Republic to emerge.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor- Round 15- come & vote: just WEIMAR + MODERN left !
Post by: Platypus on June 24, 2009, 11:53:34 PM
Müller


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor- Round 15- come & vote: just WEIMAR + MODERN left !
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on June 25, 2009, 12:46:07 AM
     Maximilian von Baden


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor- Round 15- come & vote: just WEIMAR + MODERN left !
Post by: Hash on June 25, 2009, 10:01:37 AM
Max


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor- Round 15- come & vote: just WEIMAR + MODERN left !
Post by: minionofmidas on June 25, 2009, 11:07:04 AM
Max von Baden


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor- Round 16- come & vote: just WEIMAR + MODERN left !
Post by: big bad fab on June 25, 2009, 04:37:47 PM
Maximilian von Baden is clearly out after round 15,
and this topic's title is now exact... ;)

ROUND SIXTEEN IS OPEN

Brüning is so difficult to understand and to gauge...

I stick to my previous vote:
Gustav Bauer


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor- Round 16- come & vote: just WEIMAR + MODERN left !
Post by: SUSAN CRUSHBONE on June 25, 2009, 04:41:15 PM
Bauer


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor- Round 16- come & vote: just WEIMAR + MODERN left !
Post by: big bad fab on June 26, 2009, 01:48:41 AM
Maximilian von Baden is clearly out after round 15,

Michael Jackson also out after round 15.

Couldn't probably stand to live anymore after Max von Baden's ousting in this Survivor :D


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor- Round 16- come & vote: just WEIMAR + MODERN left !
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on June 26, 2009, 02:16:53 AM
Ludwig Erhard

In the last round it was not fair. Maximilian von Baden was better like many in this forum think. He was for the time he lived a moderate progressive. He makes the way free that germany become to a republic.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS Survivor- Round 16- come & vote: just WEIMAR + MODERN left !
Post by: Hash on June 26, 2009, 06:41:30 AM
Heinrich Brüning


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 16- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern lef
Post by: minionofmidas on June 26, 2009, 12:28:31 PM
Brüning


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 16- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on June 26, 2009, 08:17:13 PM
     Gustav Bauer


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 16- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Nhoj on June 26, 2009, 08:29:31 PM
Heinrich Brüning


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 16- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: big bad fab on June 27, 2009, 08:26:43 AM
Mmmmm....
Hardly fought !
We need your vote to break the tie !


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 16- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on June 27, 2009, 08:39:48 AM
One SPD and the other Zentrum... I absolutely don't know the people, so I will choose in terms of parties.

Heinrich Brüning


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 16- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on June 27, 2009, 09:29:19 AM
Brüning


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 16- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: tmthforu94 on June 27, 2009, 10:00:14 AM
Gustav Bauer


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 16- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: GMantis on June 27, 2009, 03:24:29 PM
Ludwig Erhard


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 17- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: big bad fab on June 27, 2009, 04:00:45 PM
The most complex politician of Germany, Brüning, is out, with Bauer not far behind and a fine total of votes.

ROUND SEVENTEEN IS OPEN

I vote again for Gustav Bauer, not a great leader and a corrupt one.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 17- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on June 27, 2009, 04:10:36 PM
I don't vote for Brüning, but it's a good decision.

Now I vote again for:

Ludwig Erhard


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 17- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: minionofmidas on June 28, 2009, 06:37:35 AM
Helmut Kohl, not a great leader and a corrupt one.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 17- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Hash on June 28, 2009, 09:09:14 AM
Gustav Bauer


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 17- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: GMantis on June 28, 2009, 02:28:59 PM
Gustav Bauer
I don't think he was as bad as Bauer.
And it's rather ironic that someone with his name led a white-collar trade union.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 18- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: big bad fab on June 28, 2009, 05:04:16 PM
Gustav Bauer is eventually out.

ROUND EIGHTEEN IS OPEN

I vote for Kiesinger.

Maybe he should have been ousted before...
A real Nazi past (not one of a forced soldier), a dull chancellor, an unsuccessful "great" coalition.
Im' honored to be the first one to vote for him ! :)


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 18- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on June 28, 2009, 11:07:52 PM
Stresemann, again.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 18- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Platypus on June 29, 2009, 02:26:36 AM
Hermann Müller


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 18- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on June 29, 2009, 02:45:27 AM
Helmut Kohl


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 18- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: GMantis on June 29, 2009, 04:02:47 AM
Kurt Georg Kiesinger
He desrved the slap.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 18- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on June 29, 2009, 05:30:16 AM
Kurt Georg Kiesinger


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 18- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: minionofmidas on June 29, 2009, 10:40:06 AM
Kohl. Not that I mind if Kiesinger is ousted. Not that I minded that Bauer was ousted. But gotta get the ball rolling...


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: big bad fab on June 30, 2009, 03:14:52 AM
Kiesinger is out, but we can feel things are more open, now.

ROUND NINETEEN IS OPEN

I vote for Hermann Müller,
not a clear politician and surely one that took part in the weakening of democracy during those years. Tactics, always tactics... but no principles. He wasn't a social-democrat as Ebert and Scheidemann.

(Wikipedia refers to a racist speech on French Senegalese troops, but that's Wikipedia and I'm unable to read a speech in German and xenophobia and racism were widespread in the 20s.)



Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Platypus on June 30, 2009, 03:18:11 AM
Müller


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Hash on June 30, 2009, 08:06:47 AM
Hermann Müller


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: GMantis on June 30, 2009, 08:09:31 AM
Ludwig Erhard


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: minionofmidas on June 30, 2009, 01:20:29 PM
Tactics, always tactics... but no principles.
That'd be Ebert in a nutshell. But not Müller.

Oh whatever. Erhard.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on June 30, 2009, 02:39:08 PM
Ludwig Erhard

Müller isn't the best, but not so bad. There gives others they must go. Kohl (see what lewis wrote), Stesemann (a big foreign minister, but no good chancellor), Scheel (he wasn't chancellor), Ebert (maybe he was the first president in the Weimar Republic, but he was a bad politician)


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on June 30, 2009, 04:35:09 PM
Not Müller!

Stresemann


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: big bad fab on July 02, 2009, 08:46:18 AM
Anyone to break our tie between Müller and Erhard ?...

I don't want to do it myself, but I'm ready if need be.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: tmthforu94 on July 02, 2009, 09:28:23 AM
Müller


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: big bad fab on July 02, 2009, 09:51:30 AM
A very difficult round... Müller is eventually out.
I have PMed a bit, but more likely voters for Erhard than for Müller, believe me !

ROUND TWENTY IS OPEN

And I vote for Gerhard Schröder.

Maybe leftists would view him as too rightist in his reforms. But, for me, that's not a problem of course.
No, I hated his hugely opportunistic behaviour (Irak war e.g.).
And I hated his pro-Putin stance and when you end paid by Putin, that's really ugly for the head of the 3rd or 4th economic power in the world...
All this to by-pass poor Poland.

Schröder out !


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 20- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Hash on July 02, 2009, 09:59:20 AM
Helmut Kohl


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 20- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern lef
Post by: minionofmidas on July 02, 2009, 12:07:44 PM
Kohl


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on July 02, 2009, 04:29:28 PM
Helmut Kohl

A very difficult round... Müller is eventually out.
I have PMed a bit, but more likely voters for Erhard than for Müller, believe me !

ROUND TWENTY IS OPEN

And I vote for Gerhard Schröder.

Maybe leftists would view him as too rightist in his reforms. But, for me, that's not a problem of course.
No, I hated his hugely opportunistic behaviour (Iraq war e.g.).
And I hated his pro-Putin stance and when you end paid by Putin, that's really ugly for the head of the 3rd or 4th economic power in the world...
All this to by-pass poor Poland.

Schröder out !

 :D That's very funny. There gives many parts to criticise the politics of Schröder, but only in the pro-Putin part you are right. All the other things you said is nonsens.

1) All politicans are opportunistic
2) He made nothing against Poland and when you mean the pipeline than it's more than funny
3) That he don't make your favourite politics is one thing, but he make very difficult reforms against his own party and changes the social system more than Kohl in his time. He risk his majority for economic reforms and this you can say about no other chancellor.

Schröder don't believe the lies from Bush and was against his Iraq War. Yes he used it for his campain, but only a very stupid politician wouldn't do this. Only Republican nutheads are this opinion.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 20- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Franzl on July 02, 2009, 04:34:44 PM
Gerhard Schröder, a disgusting human being.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 20- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on July 02, 2009, 06:11:57 PM
Kohl


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: big bad fab on July 03, 2009, 04:23:21 AM
Helmut Kohl

A very difficult round... Müller is eventually out.
I have PMed a bit, but more likely voters for Erhard than for Müller, believe me !

ROUND TWENTY IS OPEN

And I vote for Gerhard Schröder.

Maybe leftists would view him as too rightist in his reforms. But, for me, that's not a problem of course.
No, I hated his hugely opportunistic behaviour (Iraq war e.g.).
And I hated his pro-Putin stance and when you end paid by Putin, that's really ugly for the head of the 3rd or 4th economic power in the world...
All this to by-pass poor Poland.

Schröder out !

 :D That's very funny. There gives many parts to criticise the politics of Schröder, but only in the pro-Putin part you are right. All the other things you said is nonsens.

1) All politicans are opportunistic
2) He made nothing against Poland and when you mean the pipeline than it's more than funny
3) That he don't make your favourite politics is one thing, but he make very difficult reforms against his own party and changes the social system more than Kohl in his time. He risk his majority for economic reforms and this you can say about no other chancellor.

Schröder don't believe the lies from Bush and was against his Iraq War. Yes he used it for his campain, but only a very stupid politician wouldn't do this. Only Republican nutheads are this opinion.

1) OK but there are levels in opportunism...

2) Being pro-Putin is enough for me not to be very favorable to Poland. Some may say Poland was too pro-American at the time and so, Schröder wasn't responsible. But I think that, on the contrayr, Poland was pushed even more towards the US because of Chirac-Berlusconi-Schröder pro-Russian trio.

3) Maybe I wasn't clear, but he did the right economic policy for me: on the contrary I acknowledge that he was able to fight his own party.

Anyways, I don't like his personality.
At least, Kohl, who wasn't able to let the place soon enough, who ended too proud of himself, etc, was a real pro-European leader and relaunched the EU with Mitterrand and Delors in a way we have alreadt forgotten.
And Kohl managed well the international aspect of the reunification with Gorbachev and Shevardnadze (the internal side of the story is another thing).

Sure, I may see modern chancellors too much from an outside viewpoint.
But that's the game ;)
and it's nice to see that there are surprises in here, with Kohl suddenly becoming the "favorite" this round, even though I will be a bit sad...


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on July 03, 2009, 04:42:52 AM
Kohl

No, I hated his hugely opportunistic behaviour (Irak war e.g.).

You just seem to forget that Chirac, Villepin, Schröder were right and that Bush, Rumsfeld, H. Clinton and Blair were wrong ( or even liars for the first two ) on Iraq. You can't honestly blame someone for having been right just because you supported those who were wrong.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Franzl on July 03, 2009, 05:33:18 AM
Kohl

No, I hated his hugely opportunistic behaviour (Irak war e.g.).

You just seem to forget that Chirac, Villepin, Schröder were right and that Bush, Rumsfeld, H. Clinton and Blair were wrong ( or even liars for the first two ) on Iraq. You can't honestly blame someone for having been right just because you supported those who were wrong.

Being "right" doesn't have anything to do with Schröder's opportunism.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on July 03, 2009, 05:33:43 AM
At least, Kohl, who wasn't able to let the place soon enough, who ended too proud of himself, etc, was a real pro-European leader and relaunched the EU with Mitterrand and Delors in a way we have alreadt forgotten.
And Kohl managed well the international aspect of the reunification with Gorbachev and Shevardnadze (the internal side of the story is another thing).


European Union:
Kohl's EU politics wasn't very bad, special for the other countries. He says to everything Okay and Germany must pay it. When I'm from France I see Kohl as a better chancellor, maybe.

German Reunification:
I don't think he made something very good. The politics of him in this time was to react not to operate. Every German Politician, the best and the worst from every party, would do the same.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on July 03, 2009, 05:45:29 AM
Kohl

No, I hated his hugely opportunistic behaviour (Irak war e.g.).

You just seem to forget that Chirac, Villepin, Schröder were right and that Bush, Rumsfeld, H. Clinton and Blair were wrong ( or even liars for the first two ) on Iraq. You can't honestly blame someone for having been right just because you supported those who were wrong.

Being "right" doesn't have anything to do with Schröder's opportunism.

@Franzl
He was right in the question of the Iraq war and only this is important. That he is a opportunistic politician is a other problem, but I wrote it before, you can say it about every chancellor.

By the way, Schröder's economic politics was nearly FDP politics. You must love him :D


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Franzl on July 03, 2009, 05:49:23 AM
Kohl

No, I hated his hugely opportunistic behaviour (Irak war e.g.).

You just seem to forget that Chirac, Villepin, Schröder were right and that Bush, Rumsfeld, H. Clinton and Blair were wrong ( or even liars for the first two ) on Iraq. You can't honestly blame someone for having been right just because you supported those who were wrong.

Being "right" doesn't have anything to do with Schröder's opportunism.

@Franzl
He was right in the question of the Iraq war and only this is important. That he is a opportunistic politician is a other problem, but I wrote it before, you can say it about every chancellor.

By the way, Schröder's economic politics was nearly FDP politics. You must love him :D

well now FDP..? :)

Still, I think Schröder's reforms were necessary and I do commend him for going against his party, but I have major issues with his overall character and especially his connections to Russia.

For what it's worth, I probably would have voted SPD in 2002.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: big bad fab on July 03, 2009, 06:34:33 AM
Kohl

No, I hated his hugely opportunistic behaviour (Irak war e.g.).

You just seem to forget that Chirac, Villepin, Schröder were right and that Bush, Rumsfeld, H. Clinton and Blair were wrong ( or even liars for the first two ) on Iraq. You can't honestly blame someone for having been right just because you supported those who were wrong.

Be careful: I've said that Chirac, Schröder, Berlusconi were pro-Putin. I haven't refered to Iraq on this.
And on Iraq, I'm not saying that Schröder was wrong, I'm saying that he over-exploited this in his own advantage.
He was so glad to hide his own unpopular reforms -especially in his own camp- behind the Iraq war.
Without a warmonger in the WH, Schröder would probably have been beaten.

Even Chirac hasn't tried to use Iraq in 2004 elections (granted, they were local; except that the socialists made them national, so he could have used Villepin and all this foreign stuff).

Again, I agree with many things and policies Schröder led. And I'm of course convinced that the Iraq war was a big strategic mistake, based on a big lie.

I just don't like the man and his "career" afterwards...


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: big bad fab on July 03, 2009, 06:59:27 AM
At least, Kohl, who wasn't able to let the place soon enough, who ended too proud of himself, etc, was a real pro-European leader and relaunched the EU with Mitterrand and Delors in a way we have alreadt forgotten.
And Kohl managed well the international aspect of the reunification with Gorbachev and Shevardnadze (the internal side of the story is another thing).


European Union:
Kohl's EU politics wasn't very bad, special for the other countries. He says to everything Okay and Germany must pay it. When I'm from France I see Kohl as a better chancellor, maybe.

German Reunification:
I don't think he made something very good. The politics of him in this time was to react not to operate. Every German Politician, the best and the worst from every party, would do the same.

Everybody reacted in the West: the only actors were the Baltic and East European people, some Polish leaders (opposition and government), some Hungarian leaders and Gorbachev, Shevardnadze and even Kriuchkov by not stopping things.
When Kohl gathered with Gorbachev and Shevardnadze in North Caucasus, he was alone to gain Soviet OK for German reunification and for a quick one.

Bush Sr wouldn't have obtained it so early. He was too careful for this.
And Mitterrand tried to slow things as much as he could, which was unfair and historically stupid.
Thatcher wasn't really in it, even though her good relations with Gorbachev might have helped a bit.

Kohl was able to grasp an historic moment to make a political BlitzKrieg. That's not too bad.

About 1:1 exchange rate between Ostmark and DM, it was economically awful, but politically unavoidable. Who could have done better ?

The 6 last months of 1989 and the 3 first months of 1990 were really crazy: Poland's Mazowiecki government, East Europeans fleeing through Hungary, Hungary's communists reforming themselves, fall of the Berlin wall, fall of communists elesewhere, Romania "revolution" and coup, first end of Yugoslavia through the end of the Communist League, German reunification, first "free" elections in Russia and Soviet Union, comeback of Eltsin, first troubles in the Baltic States, death of Sakharov, nationalist troubles in the Caucasus.
Remember that nothing was sure. We now view reunification as obvious but it wasn't even in December 1989.

Come on, Kohl, Gorbachev, John Paul II, Walesa were good in this absolutely fantastic period, with not many dead (except in Romania). Bush, Baker, Thatcher were correct. Mitterrand was bad.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on July 03, 2009, 08:09:07 AM
Kohl

No, I hated his hugely opportunistic behaviour (Irak war e.g.).

You just seem to forget that Chirac, Villepin, Schröder were right and that Bush, Rumsfeld, H. Clinton and Blair were wrong ( or even liars for the first two ) on Iraq. You can't honestly blame someone for having been right just because you supported those who were wrong.

Be careful: I've said that Chirac, Schröder, Berlusconi were pro-Putin. I haven't refered to Iraq on this.
And on Iraq, I'm not saying that Schröder was wrong, I'm saying that he over-exploited this in his own advantage.
He was so glad to hide his own unpopular reforms -especially in his own camp- behind the Iraq war.
Without a warmonger in the WH, Schröder would probably have been beaten.

Even Chirac hasn't tried to use Iraq in 2004 elections (granted, they were local; except that the socialists made them national, so he could have used Villepin and all this foreign stuff).

Again, I agree with many things and policies Schröder led. And I'm of course convinced that the Iraq war was a big strategic mistake, based on a big lie.

I just don't like the man and his "career" afterwards...

So what you are doing is judging him on mere intent, saying "yes, I would have done what he did, but he did it for the bad reasons". Probably you are right and he did it for political reasons, and so what ? The only thing that counts is that he refused to follow Bush and Blair in their crusade against the Evil, and I would prefer a crook that takes the good decision in order to be elected, than an honest idealist who really thought he was going to free Iraq but in fact ruined his country and destroyed all the Middle East.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Franzl on July 03, 2009, 08:29:31 AM
but in fact ruined his country and destroyed all the Middle East.

Please explain.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: big bad fab on July 03, 2009, 08:37:13 AM
Kohl

No, I hated his hugely opportunistic behaviour (Irak war e.g.).

You just seem to forget that Chirac, Villepin, Schröder were right and that Bush, Rumsfeld, H. Clinton and Blair were wrong ( or even liars for the first two ) on Iraq. You can't honestly blame someone for having been right just because you supported those who were wrong.

Be careful: I've said that Chirac, Schröder, Berlusconi were pro-Putin. I haven't refered to Iraq on this.
And on Iraq, I'm not saying that Schröder was wrong, I'm saying that he over-exploited this in his own advantage.
He was so glad to hide his own unpopular reforms -especially in his own camp- behind the Iraq war.
Without a warmonger in the WH, Schröder would probably have been beaten.

Even Chirac hasn't tried to use Iraq in 2004 elections (granted, they were local; except that the socialists made them national, so he could have used Villepin and all this foreign stuff).

Again, I agree with many things and policies Schröder led. And I'm of course convinced that the Iraq war was a big strategic mistake, based on a big lie.

I just don't like the man and his "career" afterwards...

So what you are doing is judging him on mere intent, saying "yes, I would have done what he did, but he did it for the bad reasons". Probably you are right and he did it for political reasons, and so what ? The only thing that counts is that he refused to follow Bush and Blair in their crusade against the Evil, and I would prefer a crook that takes the good decision in order to be elected, than an honest idealist who really thought he was going to free Iraq but in fact ruined his country and destroyed all the Middle East.
No, no, that's not the point.

Don't mix the decision to say "no" to Bush and the campaign. Refusing to take part in the war was a good decision based on good motives, no problem. I don't have any remark on this: I agree with you, with Schröder, with Chirac (even though the personal behaviour of Villepin was ridiculous... many French thought he was almost a hero then because he "resisted" the USA; I thought about REAL acts of resistance: those of de Gaulle, Moulin, Frenay, Aubrac, etc).

No. I'm talking about the over-exploitation of this subject during the campaign. I.e. I'm talking about the fact that, during the campaign, he tried to hide any other debate about any other question than Iraq. That's the point.

Anyway, if Schröder is able to beat Brandt in this survivor, I will be happy ;D


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: big bad fab on July 03, 2009, 08:43:21 AM
but in fact ruined his country and destroyed all the Middle East.

Please explain.

Errrr.... no, please, do not explain, Antonio, as it's a German Chancellors Survivor... not a topic on the Middle East.
I agree with Franzl, who will probably tell you that the Middle East has been a mess for, well, many centuries, but at least since 1917 (Sykes-Picot) and that the evil Bush (yes, he was a bad, a very bad president) isn't the only and first cause of all this.
But you'll start again on the only question that gathered all French people in modern times... (and so not an interesting question....) and discuss on Palestine/Israël, etc, the most sterile debate in the world ever !

So, no, please, don't explain.... :)

It's already hard for me to see Kohl go so early, please stick to the topic ! ;)


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on July 03, 2009, 08:50:21 AM
Kohl

No, I hated his hugely opportunistic behaviour (Irak war e.g.).

You just seem to forget that Chirac, Villepin, Schröder were right and that Bush, Rumsfeld, H. Clinton and Blair were wrong ( or even liars for the first two ) on Iraq. You can't honestly blame someone for having been right just because you supported those who were wrong.

Be careful: I've said that Chirac, Schröder, Berlusconi were pro-Putin. I haven't refered to Iraq on this.
And on Iraq, I'm not saying that Schröder was wrong, I'm saying that he over-exploited this in his own advantage.
He was so glad to hide his own unpopular reforms -especially in his own camp- behind the Iraq war.
Without a warmonger in the WH, Schröder would probably have been beaten.

Even Chirac hasn't tried to use Iraq in 2004 elections (granted, they were local; except that the socialists made them national, so he could have used Villepin and all this foreign stuff).

Again, I agree with many things and policies Schröder led. And I'm of course convinced that the Iraq war was a big strategic mistake, based on a big lie.

I just don't like the man and his "career" afterwards...

So what you are doing is judging him on mere intent, saying "yes, I would have done what he did, but he did it for the bad reasons". Probably you are right and he did it for political reasons, and so what ? The only thing that counts is that he refused to follow Bush and Blair in their crusade against the Evil, and I would prefer a crook that takes the good decision in order to be elected, than an honest idealist who really thought he was going to free Iraq but in fact ruined his country and destroyed all the Middle East.
No, no, that's not the point.

Don't mix the decision to say "no" to Bush and the campaign. Refusing to take part in the war was a good decision based on good motives, no problem. I don't have any remark on this: I agree with you, with Schröder, with Chirac (even though the personal behaviour of Villepin was ridiculous... many French thought he was almost a hero then because he "resisted" the USA; I thought about REAL acts of resistance: those of de Gaulle, Moulin, Frenay, Aubrac, etc).

No. I'm talking about the over-exploitation of this subject during the campaign. I.e. I'm talking about the fact that, during the campaign, he tried to hide any other debate about any other question than Iraq. That's the point.

OK, understood. Thanks for explanations. ;)


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on July 03, 2009, 09:30:06 AM
but in fact ruined his country and destroyed all the Middle East.

Please explain.
I agree with Franzl, who will probably tell you that the Middle East has been a mess for, well, many centuries, but at least since 1917 (Sykes-Picot) and that the evil Bush (yes, he was a bad, a very bad president) isn't the only and first cause of all this.
But you'll start again on the only question that gathered all French people in modern times... (and so not an interesting question....) and discuss on Palestine/Israël, etc, the most sterile debate in the world ever !

Please, don't make me play the part of the primarily anti-american french idiot. What the hell would I do on this forum if I believed that USA were the Empire of Evil ? I think it's a great nation, a nation that could promote democracy in the world, but only on condition that his actions are intelligent and considered, not simplistic and ideologic.

Bush is not the Lord of Evil, he is just an idiot.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: big bad fab on July 03, 2009, 09:50:43 AM
but in fact ruined his country and destroyed all the Middle East.

Please explain.
I agree with Franzl, who will probably tell you that the Middle East has been a mess for, well, many centuries, but at least since 1917 (Sykes-Picot) and that the evil Bush (yes, he was a bad, a very bad president) isn't the only and first cause of all this.
But you'll start again on the only question that gathered all French people in modern times... (and so not an interesting question....) and discuss on Palestine/Israël, etc, the most sterile debate in the world ever !

Please, don't make me play the part of the primarily anti-american french idiot. What the hell would I do on this forum if I believed that USA were the Empire of Evil ? I think it's a great nation, a nation that could promote democracy in the world, but only on condition that his actions are intelligent and considered, not simplistic and ideologic.

Bush is not the Lord of Evil, he is just an idiot.
That wasn't my aim. No offense.
Just that Bush didn't "destroy all the Middle East": he screwed many things up, but not everything.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 21- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: big bad fab on July 03, 2009, 09:54:48 AM
Back to Germany and an horrible round for your organizer-in-chief, forced to acknowledge that Kohl is clearly out, even before Fehrenbach, Marx or Scheel... Bouhouhou...

ROUND TWENTY-ONE IS OPEN

I vote for Scheel.

Not a real chancellor as Old Europe explained us once.
Another big opportunistic guy (;)) when, in 1966, he broke the coalition with CDU, resulting in the wonderful great coalition under the wonderful Kiesinger...
Did he have a real influence on Germany's policies ? I'm not so sure.
So, useless to keep him alive here.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 21- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Franzl on July 03, 2009, 10:05:14 AM
Scheel I guess :)

For the simple reason that he was never chancellor.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 21- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: tmthforu94 on July 03, 2009, 10:07:59 AM
Scheel


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 21- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Hash on July 03, 2009, 12:45:08 PM
Walter Scheel


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 21- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: minionofmidas on July 03, 2009, 02:13:47 PM
Oh yes. We ought to have taken care of that long ago.

Scheel.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 21- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Edu on July 03, 2009, 02:15:42 PM
Walter Scheel


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 21- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: big bad fab on July 03, 2009, 05:31:45 PM
A unanimous vote in sight ?
We would have a breathing round before fighting on those left (but without Kohl :().


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 19- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Antonio the Sixth on July 03, 2009, 05:36:44 PM
So, I'm not going to break this wonderful unanimity...
Scheel

but in fact ruined his country and destroyed all the Middle East.

Please explain.
I agree with Franzl, who will probably tell you that the Middle East has been a mess for, well, many centuries, but at least since 1917 (Sykes-Picot) and that the evil Bush (yes, he was a bad, a very bad president) isn't the only and first cause of all this.
But you'll start again on the only question that gathered all French people in modern times... (and so not an interesting question....) and discuss on Palestine/Israël, etc, the most sterile debate in the world ever !

Please, don't make me play the part of the primarily anti-american french idiot. What the hell would I do on this forum if I believed that USA were the Empire of Evil ? I think it's a great nation, a nation that could promote democracy in the world, but only on condition that his actions are intelligent and considered, not simplistic and ideologic.

Bush is not the Lord of Evil, he is just an idiot.
That wasn't my aim. No offense.
Just that Bush didn't "destroy all the Middle East": he screwed many things up, but not everything.

Yes, I certainly used a too emphatic tone. I obviousily exaggerated saying that, and I didn't want to mean what you understood. Really sorry ;).


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 21- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: big bad fab on July 03, 2009, 06:17:51 PM
You're welcome :)

I've written about unanimity only because I think we'll find someone who will break it :)


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 21- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Lincoln Republican on July 03, 2009, 07:33:05 PM
Helmut Schmidt


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 21- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: big bad fab on July 03, 2009, 07:51:29 PM
Winfield the great broke our grey unanimity !
And without having been PMed on this subject !


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 21- come & vote: just Weimar + Modern left !
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on July 04, 2009, 03:15:14 AM
Back to Germany and an horrible round for your organizer-in-chief, forced to acknowledge that Kohl is clearly out, even before Fehrenbach, Marx or Scheel... Bouhouhou...

In the last round we had only the choice between Kohl and Schröder. Then it's no surprise that Kohl was eliminated. Bismarck must go earlier and wasn't a bad chancellor. He was better as 50% of the remaining  ;)

This Round:

Walter Scheel


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 21- come & vote ! left: just Weimar + Modern
Post by: Lincoln Republican on July 04, 2009, 11:04:30 AM
Unanimity voting smacks of authoritarianism.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 22- come & vote ! left: just Weimar + Modern
Post by: big bad fab on July 04, 2009, 12:09:06 PM
The non-chancellor is out.

ROUND TWENTY-TWO IS OPEN

I vote for Schröder.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 22- come & vote ! left: just Weimar + Modern
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on July 04, 2009, 01:39:17 PM
I vote for Ludwig Erhard

He had no qualification as chancellor.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 22- come & vote ! left: just Weimar + Modern
Post by: minionofmidas on July 04, 2009, 01:44:11 PM
Erhard


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 22- come & vote ! left: just Weimar + Modern
Post by: Franzl on July 04, 2009, 01:46:27 PM
Schröder


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 22- come & vote ! left: just Weimar + Modern
Post by: big bad fab on July 04, 2009, 02:01:07 PM
Thanks for keeping voting in this, despite the World Leaders Survivor events :)


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 22- come & vote ! left: just Weimar + Modern
Post by: Edu on July 04, 2009, 02:06:27 PM
Ludwig Erhard


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 22- come & vote ! left: just Weimar + Modern
Post by: minionofmidas on July 04, 2009, 02:10:24 PM
Thanks for keeping voting in this, despite the World Leaders Survivor events :)
Of course.

You're a dirty conservative hack, but it's nothing personal as far as I'm concerned. :)

Besides, gotta save Schröder's ass for at least two or three more rounds yet. His economic policies sucked, by and large and with exceptions, but he dragged the federal government out of 16 years of effective nonexistence as far as any kind of answers to or even awareness of societal changes are concerned (including what the US calls social issues, but not limited to that). Heck, he even dragged the CDU ('s leading personnel) out of that - not that all of the answers they're giving now are better than no answer at all.

But deep down, the reason I still have a soft spot for the Patrons' Comrade is that he was, undeniably, of the Common People. And couldn't have denied it if he tried (so he made an act of it instead - part of it was an act, of course.)



Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 22- come & vote ! left: just Weimar + Modern
Post by: big bad fab on July 04, 2009, 02:25:54 PM
Thanks for keeping voting in this, despite the World Leaders Survivor events :)
Of course.

You're a dirty conservative hack, but it's nothing personal as far as I'm concerned. :)

Besides, gotta save Schröder's ass for at least two or three more rounds yet. His economic policies sucked, by and large and with exceptions, but he dragged the federal government out of 16 years of effective nonexistence as far as any kind of answers to or even awareness of societal changes are concerned (including what the US calls social issues, but not limited to that). Heck, he even dragged the CDU ('s leading personnel) out of that - not that all of the answers they're giving now are better than no answer at all.

But deep down, the reason I still have a soft spot for the Patrons' Comrade is that he was, undeniably, of the Common People. And couldn't have denied it if he tried (so he made an act of it instead - part of it was an act, of course.)


Nice advocating of Schröder: I almost regret my vote. And I say it without any irony.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 22- come & vote ! left: just Weimar + Modern
Post by: tmthforu94 on July 04, 2009, 02:31:09 PM
Schröder


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 22- come & vote ! left: just Weimar + Modern
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on July 05, 2009, 03:25:05 PM
Erhard


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 22- come & vote ! left: just Weimar + Modern
Post by: Hash on July 05, 2009, 03:39:22 PM
Gerhard Schröder


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 22- come & vote ! left: just Weimar + Modern
Post by: Lincoln Republican on July 05, 2009, 05:20:30 PM
Helmut Schmidt


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 22- come & vote ! left: just Weimar + Modern
Post by: Platypus on July 06, 2009, 06:59:37 AM
Erhard


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 22- come & vote ! left: just Weimar + Modern
Post by: GMantis on July 06, 2009, 08:10:06 AM
Ludwig Erhard


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 23- come & vote ! left: just Weimar + Modern
Post by: big bad fab on July 07, 2009, 03:49:23 PM
Erhard is out after a fiercely fought round !

ROUND TWENTY-THREE IS OPEN

I vote for Fehrenbach.
Not a bad one, but I have a stupid reason to vote for him: his name... The same as one of my "colleagues" in the ENA...
Anyway, Fehrenbach is not a brilliant one and maybe Schröder can wait for one more round...


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 23- come & vote ! left: just Weimar + Modern
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on July 07, 2009, 05:37:15 PM
Stresemann


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 23- come & vote ! left: just Weimar + Modern
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on July 08, 2009, 03:32:31 AM
     Gerhard Schroder


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 23- come & vote ! left: just Weimar + Modern
Post by: minionofmidas on July 08, 2009, 03:35:29 AM
Fehrenbach

Yeah, some weird elderly compromise who was neither the leader of his party nor a member of the strongest party... not quite the same as a "nonpartisan" interim prime minister, but close.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 23- come & vote ! left: just Weimar + Modern
Post by: Edu on July 08, 2009, 01:36:47 PM
Fehrenbach


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 23- come & vote ! left: just Weimar + Modern
Post by: big bad fab on July 08, 2009, 04:59:48 PM
A low turnout for the moment and not our usual voters: I let it open for some more hours.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 23- come & vote ! left: just Weimar + Modern
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on July 08, 2009, 05:51:08 PM
Yeah, some weird elderly compromise who was neither the leader of his party nor a member of the strongest party... not quite the same as a "nonpartisan" interim prime minister, but close.

This could apply for much of Weimar.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 24- come & vote in our top 10 !
Post by: big bad fab on July 09, 2009, 02:55:47 AM
Fehrenbach is out in a peaceful round, with a very low turnout.

ROUND TWENTY-FOUR IS OPEN

I vote for Gerhard Schröder.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 23- come & vote ! left: just Weimar + Modern
Post by: minionofmidas on July 09, 2009, 06:03:06 AM
Yeah, some weird elderly compromise who was neither the leader of his party nor a member of the strongest party... not quite the same as a "nonpartisan" interim prime minister, but close.

This could apply for much of Weimar.
Not to those left, though. Though Stresemann's party was so weak that he too should be considered a joke chancellor (besides, he was a failure as chancellor).

Stresemann.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 24- come & vote in our top 10 !
Post by: Platypus on July 09, 2009, 06:08:57 AM
Stresemann


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 24- come & vote in our top 10 !
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on July 09, 2009, 01:18:47 PM
Finally!

Stresemann


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 24- come & vote in our top 10 !
Post by: Edu on July 09, 2009, 01:30:14 PM
Stresemann


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 24- come & vote in our top 10 !
Post by: Hash on July 09, 2009, 01:52:47 PM
Stresemann


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 24- come & vote in our top 10 !
Post by: big bad fab on July 09, 2009, 04:57:05 PM
Well, well, well...
I should have voted Merkel !
In this survivor, I mean :)


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 25- come & vote in our top 9 !
Post by: big bad fab on July 10, 2009, 08:48:44 AM
Stresemann has been clearly defeated. I must have seen more the foreign minister than the chancellor and was wrong.

ROUND TWENTY-FIVE IS OPEN

I vote for Merkel !! EDIT: Schröder !! Of course !!


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 25- come & vote in our top 9 !
Post by: minionofmidas on July 10, 2009, 08:58:33 AM

NO NO NO LEAVE THAT FOR T'OTHER SURVIVOR PLEASE!

I still got two people in these one I want gone before her. And (shock, perhaps :) ) they're both Social Democrats. If SDinos.

I vote for Friedrich Ebert.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 25- come & vote in our top 9 !
Post by: Platypus on July 10, 2009, 09:16:46 AM
Wirth


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 25- come & vote in our top 9 !
Post by: Hash on July 10, 2009, 02:55:32 PM
Gerhard Schröder


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 25- come & vote in our top 9 !
Post by: minionofmidas on July 10, 2009, 03:26:27 PM
Check the opening post. Or just help vote Ebert off. :)


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 25- come & vote in our top 9 !
Post by: MASHED POTATOES. VOTE! on July 10, 2009, 03:30:32 PM
Thanks :)

Well, hard choice... No one I trurly dislike left here. Let it be Merkel


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 25- come & vote in our top 9 !
Post by: big bad fab on July 10, 2009, 05:13:38 PM
Do you remember there is no precise rule in this survivor ?

So, in order to please Lewis (or not), I change my vote in... Schröder !


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 25- come & vote in our top 9 !
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on July 10, 2009, 06:08:30 PM
Wirth


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 25- come & vote in our top 9 !
Post by: Edu on July 10, 2009, 07:32:46 PM
Wirth


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 25- come & vote in our top 9 !
Post by: Nhoj on July 10, 2009, 07:54:26 PM
Gerhard Schröder


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 25- come & vote in our top 9 !
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on July 11, 2009, 03:23:53 PM
     Gerhard Schröder


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 26- come & vote in our top 8 !
Post by: big bad fab on July 11, 2009, 04:17:43 PM
May I say I'm happy that Schröder is finally out ? Even with my vote remaining Merkel, he would have lost.

ROUND TWENTY-SIX IS OPEN
(list of contenders in opening post)

I vote for Merkel,
as I find difficult to oust the 2 first Chancellors of the Republic, as Wirth and Marx weren't bad men and as I know Brandt is an iconic image though he wasn't really a very good chancellor in internal affairs.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 26- come & vote in our top 8 !
Post by: Hash on July 11, 2009, 06:13:12 PM
Friedrich Ebert


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 26- come & vote in our top 8 !
Post by: Platypus on July 11, 2009, 10:16:11 PM
Wirth


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 26- come & vote in our top 8 !
Post by: Lincoln Republican on July 11, 2009, 10:27:13 PM
Helmut Schmidt


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 26- come & vote in our top 8 !
Post by: Edu on July 11, 2009, 11:18:03 PM
Wirth


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 26- come & vote in our top 8 !
Post by: minionofmidas on July 12, 2009, 05:32:59 AM
Ebert


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 26- come & vote in our top 8 !
Post by: k-onmmunist on July 12, 2009, 07:16:14 AM
Ebert


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 26- come & vote in our top 8 !
Post by: big bad fab on July 12, 2009, 08:36:25 AM
Some statistics up to now:

Biggest total of votes in the round when eliminated:
Hitler, Scheel: 9

Lowest total of votes in the round when eliminated:
Bismarck, Bethmann-Hollweg: 2

Biggest vote in a round though not being eliminated:
Bauer, Schröder: 4

Biggest total of votes up to elimination:
Erhard: 14
(Schröder: 13)

Biggest rate of valid votes:
Hertling: 100% (88,9% with invalid vote included)
(Hitler, Scheel: 90%)

Eliminated with less votes than in his "best" round:
Bauer 3 (vs 4 previously)

Eliminated with only a plurality of votes:
Krosigk: 4 out of 9
Papen: 3 out of 7
Bismarck: 2 out of 5
Bethmann-Hollweg: 2 out of 5
Brüning: 5 out of 11
Kiesinger: 3 out of 7

Eliminated without having received votes in previous rounds:
(Hitler), Goebbels, Krosigk, Papen, Brüning, Kiesinger, Fehrenbach

Biggest delay between first vote and ousting:
Scheel: 2->21
(Merkel: 2->? still in)


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 27- come & vote in our top 7 !
Post by: big bad fab on July 12, 2009, 04:56:00 PM
Old Dad Ebert is out...

ROUND TWENTY-SEVEN IS OPEN
(list of contenders in opening post)

I vote for Joseph Wirth, as nobody wants to eliminate Merkel... At least, she'll be saved in one Survivor !


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 27- come & vote in our top 7 !
Post by: minionofmidas on July 12, 2009, 04:57:04 PM
Helmut Schmidt.

I'll go for Merkel after he's off, so Merkel lovers, you know the way to torture me.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 27- come & vote in our top 7 !
Post by: big bad fab on July 12, 2009, 05:02:10 PM
Helmut Schmidt.

I'll go for Merkel after he's off, so Merkel lovers, you know the way to torture me.

A Machiavelian way to save Schmidt !
"No problemo", we'll all vote for Brandt ! :D


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 27- come & vote in our top 7 !
Post by: Lincoln Republican on July 12, 2009, 08:38:32 PM
Helmut Schmidt


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 27- come & vote in our top 7 !
Post by: Platypus on July 13, 2009, 10:27:34 AM
Wirth


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 27- come & vote in our top 7 !
Post by: big bad fab on July 13, 2009, 05:13:04 PM
Hey guys !

Hash has just launched a French Leaders Survivor, with many names you know: vote in it, it's interesting, even though you think you're not good in French politics.

But, even with this one and the unavoidable World Leaders Survivor from Hughento,

don't forget to vote in here !
Now is the time !


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 27- come & vote in our top 7 !
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on July 13, 2009, 05:39:58 PM
     Helmut Schmidt


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 27- come & vote in our top 7 !
Post by: Edu on July 13, 2009, 05:52:01 PM
Ok, Schmidt


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 27- come & vote in our top 7 !
Post by: tmthforu94 on July 13, 2009, 06:39:31 PM
Wirth


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 27- come & vote in our top 7 !
Post by: Nhoj on July 13, 2009, 07:58:37 PM
Joseph Wirth


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 27- come & vote in our top 7 !
Post by: MASHED POTATOES. VOTE! on July 13, 2009, 08:16:30 PM
Merkel


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 27- come & vote in our top 7 !
Post by: Hash on July 14, 2009, 08:20:50 AM
Wirth


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 28- come & vote in our top 6 !
Post by: big bad fab on July 14, 2009, 05:17:58 PM
Wirth is out after a fiercely fought round

ROUND TWENTY-EIGHT IS OPEN

I vote for Merkel !


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 28- come & vote in our top 6 !
Post by: Nhoj on July 14, 2009, 06:34:15 PM
Angela Merkel


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 28- come & vote in our top 6 !
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on July 14, 2009, 08:10:54 PM
Merkel


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 28- come & vote in our top 6 !
Post by: Hash on July 14, 2009, 08:13:29 PM
Angela Merkel, I guess.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 28- come & vote in our top 6 !
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on July 14, 2009, 09:53:22 PM
     Helmut Schmidt


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 28- come & vote in our top 6 !
Post by: Lincoln Republican on July 15, 2009, 12:14:41 AM
Helmut Schmidt


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 28- come & vote in our top 6 !
Post by: minionofmidas on July 15, 2009, 05:22:31 AM
Hmmm.... oh well, Merkel. The chance for Schmidt will come back. Merkel might not. After all, the next obvious alternative is Adenauer. :)


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 28- come & vote in our top 6 !
Post by: GMantis on July 15, 2009, 06:00:14 AM
Angela Merkel


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 28- come & vote in our top 6 !
Post by: Edu on July 15, 2009, 07:38:25 AM
Merkel


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 29- come & vote in our top 5 !
Post by: big bad fab on July 15, 2009, 04:35:04 PM
Merkel is eventually out, after having received one vote as soon as round 2 ! She was a big fighter, betrayed by myself !

ROUND TWENTY-NINE IS OPEN

I vote for Willy Brandt.

Granted, there was this great Ostpolitik.
BUT, in internal affairs, Germany didn't do very good with him, in terms of economics and public finances.
He wasn't able to find that Guillaume was a spy.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 29- come & vote in our top 5 !
Post by: Edu on July 15, 2009, 04:39:03 PM
Schmidt


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 29- come & vote in our top 5 !
Post by: minionofmidas on July 15, 2009, 04:39:48 PM
BUT, in internal affairs, Germany didn't do very good with him, in terms of economics and public finances.
Cite?

Schmidt, of course.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 29- come & vote in our top 5 !
Post by: Nhoj on July 15, 2009, 04:45:08 PM
Helmut Schmidt


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 29- come & vote in our top 5 !
Post by: Hash on July 15, 2009, 04:47:17 PM
Helmut Schmidt


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 29- come & vote in our top 5 !
Post by: big bad fab on July 15, 2009, 05:03:03 PM
BUT, in internal affairs, Germany didn't do very good with him, in terms of economics and public finances.
Cite?

Schmidt, of course.

Big inflation throughout the period.
Failed experience of floating DM in 1971 (Schiller resigned in 1972).
Small recession in industrial output in late 1971, beginning 1972, less than 1% growth in 1973, almost 0 in 1974.
Of course, there was the monetary crisis and then the oil crisis.
But I think Brandt wasn't a great manager.

And don't forget we have only 5 chancellors left. I need to give some motives to eliminate Brandt now... ;)

And I quite like Schmidt, a moderate guy, very pro-European. He did all that he could in a very tough time.
I know he is going to be ousted. But it will be without my vote, as in Bismarck and Kohl cases. And I don't want to see an unanimous vote against him. So sad ;)


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 29- come & vote in our top 5 !
Post by: Hash on July 15, 2009, 05:56:56 PM
I'd like to change my vote to Philipp Scheidemann, mar plij.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 29- come & vote in our top 5 !
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on July 15, 2009, 05:57:35 PM
     Helmut Schmidt


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 29- come & vote in our top 5 !
Post by: Lincoln Republican on July 15, 2009, 07:16:52 PM
Helmut Schmidt


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 29- come & vote in our top 5 !
Post by: big bad fab on July 16, 2009, 02:56:31 AM
I'd like to change my vote to Philipp Scheidemann, mar plij.
OK, as I haven't fixed any rule on this :)


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 29- come & vote in our top 5 !
Post by: MASHED POTATOES. VOTE! on July 16, 2009, 03:01:11 PM
Oh, just great, no one who I really dislike left :(

By elimination Wilhelm Marx


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 30- come & vote in our top 4 !
Post by: big bad fab on July 16, 2009, 05:06:34 PM
Helmut Schmidt is out, without any surprise.

ROUND THIRTY IS OPEN

I vote for Scheidemann.

Well, with 4 chancellors left, things are getting really hard.
My provocative vote against Brandt wasn't a success. I must try someone else !
And Marx, well, he was faced with so harsh a context...


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 30- come & vote in our top 4 !
Post by: Hash on July 16, 2009, 05:54:57 PM
Scheidemann


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 30- come & vote in our top 4 !
Post by: minionofmidas on July 17, 2009, 02:55:29 AM
Adenauer.

A weird one, that yin. An old-world 19th century catholic authoritarian whose old-world hatred of Prussian authoriarianism led him to dabble in high treason in the early 20s (Rhenanian Separatism, lol)... and who seized the chance of defeating Prussian authoritarianism that the division of Germany provided. And who therefore, despite all the lip service to "German Unity", set about perpetuating that division.
It was a great success. You have to grant him that. I'm glad it worked out that way. Though the work would of course have remained incomplete without the 68ers. (And though it set the CDU on its incredibly twisted course of condemning and all the same propping up the GDR regime, and collecting the votes of those who condemned it most unreasoningly. A course it still hasn't come off off, and that's not doing Germany any good.)
But that doesn't make the man at all likeable.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 30- come & vote in our top 4 !
Post by: Edu on July 17, 2009, 03:17:01 AM
Scheidemann


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 30- come & vote in our top 4 !
Post by: Nhoj on July 17, 2009, 12:28:47 PM
Scheidemann


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 30- come & vote in our top 4 !
Post by: big bad fab on July 17, 2009, 01:54:14 PM
Adenauer.

A weird one, that yin. An old-world 19th century catholic authoritarian whose old-world hatred of Prussian authoriarianism led him to dabble in high treason in the early 20s (Rhenanian Separatism, lol)... and who seized the chance of defeating Prussian authoritarianism that the division of Germany provided. And who therefore, despite all the lip service to "German Unity", set about perpetuating that division.
It was a great success. You have to grant him that. I'm glad it worked out that way. Though the work would of course have remained incomplete without the 68ers. (And though it set the CDU on its incredibly twisted course of condemning and all the same propping up the GDR regime, and collecting the votes of those who condemned it most unreasoningly. A course it still hasn't come off off, and that's not doing Germany any good.)
But that doesn't make the man at all likeable.


You're right in a sense: Brandt completed Adenauer's work, in foreign relations.

But, well, would there have been 68ers without, first, Adenauer ?...

In the East, Dubcek and Palach (take them as symbols of course) weren't able to "complete" the work, who wasn't even begun.



Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 30- come & vote in our top 4 !
Post by: Lincoln Republican on July 17, 2009, 10:33:09 PM
Konrad Adenauer


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 30- come & vote in our top 4 !
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on July 17, 2009, 11:09:41 PM
     Scheidemann


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 31- come & vote in our top 3 !
Post by: big bad fab on July 18, 2009, 07:45:11 AM
Sorry for the delay...
The Man of the Republic is out.

ROUND THIRTY-ONE IS OPEN

I vote for Wilhelm Marx, who can be seen as the surprise of our top 3.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 31- come & vote in our top 3 !
Post by: Hash on July 18, 2009, 08:22:49 AM
Ugh. We're down to good people... let me think this over.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 30- come & vote in our top 4 !
Post by: minionofmidas on July 18, 2009, 10:19:04 AM
But, well, would there have been 68ers without, first, Adenauer ?...
Ah, who knows. It is quite likely the partition would have happened even without a leading West German politician who actively wanted it (without saying so out loud - that's the part that I'm holding against him). But perhaps not. It's impossible to say with any certainty.
A bloc-free (more or less) united Germany would have likely developped somewhat along the ways of Austria or Finland, one would reckon. Both of which had their major economic development jump, and their major social liberal paradigm shifts, somewhat later than the countries of (North)western Europe. The question is whether such a large and still potentially powerful country as Germany would have been allowed to develop that way.

Obviously, I had my reasons for not voting for Adenauer earlier, but it's time now.

Adenauer again.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 31- come & vote in our top 3 !
Post by: Nhoj on July 18, 2009, 12:24:44 PM
Wilhelm Marx


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 31- come & vote in our top 3 !
Post by: MASHED POTATOES. VOTE! on July 18, 2009, 04:32:31 PM
Adenauer


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 30- come & vote in our top 4 !
Post by: big bad fab on July 18, 2009, 04:51:51 PM
But, well, would there have been 68ers without, first, Adenauer ?...
Ah, who knows. It is quite likely the partition would have happened even without a leading West German politician who actively wanted it (without saying so out loud - that's the part that I'm holding against him). But perhaps not. It's impossible to say with any certainty.
A bloc-free (more or less) united Germany would have likely developped somewhat along the ways of Austria or Finland, one would reckon. Both of which had their major economic development jump, and their major social liberal paradigm shifts, somewhat later than the countries of (North)western Europe. The question is whether such a large and still potentially powerful country as Germany would have been allowed to develop that way.

Obviously, I had my reasons for not voting for Adenauer earlier, but it's time now.

Adenauer again.


Finland is one thing (economically dependent from Russia, abuting Russia, not a strategic situation), Austria is another (in case of conventional war, Wien would have been located far too much in the East to be effectively defended. Only some valleys betwen West Germany and Italy would have been taken by Western troops).

But they have one thing in common: they have been able to be neutral because of the US presence in Europe, especially at the heart of Europe: West Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Italy (mountainous Switzerland is a no-go zone).
And because of Norway, Denmark, Italy inside NATO and Sweden only formally neutral and shadow member of NATO.
Even with Yugoslavia, secret plans existed of possible NATO intervention (with government's approval) in case of Soviet invasion.

Finland and Austria were small countries and acted a bit as de facto "free-riders".

So, a neutral Germany was a dream, as Stalin would have never withdrawn from the eastern part. Only the western half bloc-free and neutral wouldn't have worked.

To go back to my point, it was to say:
a Brandt wouldn't have been possible in Czechoslovakia (in my example).
But, I add that he wouldn't have been possible in Finland, which produced rather a Kekkonen.

A clear Western stance, with US (and French) nuclear umbrella and a strong economy, paved the way for a society that was, afterwards, able to demand evolutions and transformations and to manage itself in a sense.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 31- come & vote in our top 3 !
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on July 18, 2009, 05:43:01 PM
     Wilhelm Marx.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 31- come & vote in our top 3 !
Post by: Hash on July 18, 2009, 06:46:29 PM
Marx


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 31- come & vote in our top 3 !
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on July 19, 2009, 01:55:28 AM
Adenauer


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 30- come & vote in our top 4 !
Post by: minionofmidas on July 19, 2009, 05:16:47 AM
Finland and Austria were small countries and acted a bit as de facto "free-riders".
Of course.

Quote
a Brandt wouldn't have been possible in Czechoslovakia (in my example).
Of course.

Quote
So, a neutral Germany was a dream, as Stalin would have never withdrawn from the eastern part. Only the western half bloc-free and neutral wouldn't have worked.
This - both parts, actually - is much less clear. Propping up those goddam Germans' economy so they don't embarass you by all running away to the West was an absolute money loser. It was also quite unpopular the whole eastern bloc over - these were the very people who'd waged that murderous war, after all. And getting both sides out of both parts would have benefitted the East far more than the West. Especially as West Germany's impending NATO entry had the Russians running absolutely scared - ever heard of the March 10th, 52 offer? Anticommunists like to forget that the Russians were playing purely a holding game in Europe from as early as 1947, and knew it. They liked to ignore it at the time, too.

Another question is whether the Americans would have permitted it. And whether West Germans would have even wanted it if the choices would have been set squarely before them.
Quite possibly not.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- come & vote in our Big Final: ADENAUER - BRANDT
Post by: big bad fab on July 19, 2009, 07:53:28 AM
Marx is out, but with a small majority.

ROUND THIRTY-TWO IS OPEN

Our big final between Konrad Adenauer and Willy Brandt.

Not really a surprise, but it's quite logical.
I'm a bit sad, as this Survivor is almost over and as I know who is going to win...
But, at least, no weird winner !

Oh, wait, nothing is done before it's done... So, it's up to you for 48 hours !

We keep voting in order to ELIMINATE.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- come & vote in our Big Final: ADENAUER - BRANDT
Post by: minionofmidas on July 19, 2009, 07:55:15 AM
Alright, Adenauer again.

And yes, predictable final. :)


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- come & vote in our Big Final: ADENAUER - BRANDT
Post by: MASHED POTATOES. VOTE! on July 19, 2009, 08:06:13 AM
Adenauer!


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 26- come & vote in our top 8 !
Post by: big bad fab on July 19, 2009, 08:14:10 AM
Some statistics up to now:

Biggest total of votes in the round when eliminated:
Hitler, Scheel: 9

Lowest total of votes in the round when eliminated:
Bismarck, Bethmann-Hollweg: 2

Biggest vote in a round though not being eliminated:
Bauer, Schröder, Schmidt: 4

Biggest total of votes up to elimination:
Schmidt 15
Erhard: 14
Schröder: 13
Merkel: 12

Biggest rate of valid votes:
Hertling: 100% (88,9% with invalid vote included)
(Hitler, Scheel: 90%)

Eliminated with less votes than in his "best" round:
Bauer 3 (vs 4 previously)

Eliminated with only a plurality of votes:
Krosigk: 4 out of 9
Papen: 3 out of 7
Bismarck: 2 out of 5
Bethmann-Hollweg: 2 out of 5
Brüning: 5 out of 11
Kiesinger: 3 out of 7

Eliminated without having received votes in previous rounds:
(Hitler), Goebbels, Krosigk, Papen, Brüning, Kiesinger, Fehrenbach

Biggest delay between first vote and ousting:
Merkel: 2->28
Scheel: 2->21

Biggest delay without any vote:
Adenauer: 1->30

Lowest number of votes up to final:
Brandt: 1
Papen, Bethmann-Hollweg, Kiesinger, Fehrenbach: 3

Biggest turnout: 11
(rounds 2-Goebbels, 16-Brüning, 22-Erhard, 27-Wirth)

Lowest turnout: 5
(rounds 7-Bismarck, 8-Bethmann-Hollweg, 9-Bülow, 12-Luther, 17-Bauer)


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- come & vote in our Big Final: ADENAUER - BRANDT
Post by: big bad fab on July 19, 2009, 08:15:51 AM
Willy Brandt


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- come & vote in our Big Final: ADENAUER - BRANDT
Post by: Middle-aged Europe on July 19, 2009, 10:14:02 AM
Adenauer... mainly for hackish partisan reasons. :P


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- come & vote in our Big Final: ADENAUER - BRANDT
Post by: Hatman 🍁 on July 19, 2009, 11:09:58 AM
eliminate Adenauer


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- come & vote in our Big Final: ADENAUER - BRANDT
Post by: Nhoj on July 19, 2009, 11:36:31 AM
Willy brandt


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- come & vote in our Big Final: ADENAUER - BRANDT
Post by: Filuwaúrdjan on July 19, 2009, 12:09:40 PM
Adenauer


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- come & vote in our Big Final: ADENAUER - BRANDT
Post by: CO-OWL on July 19, 2009, 02:38:02 PM
Adenauer... mainly for hackish partisan reasons. :P

Herbert Frahm :P


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- come & vote in our Big Final: ADENAUER - BRANDT
Post by: Middle-aged Europe on July 19, 2009, 02:45:10 PM
Adenauer... mainly for hackish partisan reasons. :P

Herbert Frahm :P

So what? Willy Brandt is the cooler name anyway. :D


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- come & vote in our Big Final: ADENAUER - BRANDT
Post by: Hans-im-Glück on July 19, 2009, 03:51:58 PM
Adenauer


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- come & vote in our Big Final: ADENAUER - BRANDT
Post by: Franzl on July 19, 2009, 03:55:52 PM
Brandt


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- come & vote in our Big Final: ADENAUER - BRANDT
Post by: Hash on July 19, 2009, 04:25:57 PM
Brandt


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- come & vote in our Big Final: ADENAUER - BRANDT
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on July 19, 2009, 04:51:09 PM
     Willy Brandt


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- come & vote in our Big Final: ADENAUER - BRANDT
Post by: Хahar 🤔 on July 19, 2009, 05:13:43 PM
Adenauer


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- come & vote in our Big Final: ADENAUER - BRANDT
Post by: Edu on July 20, 2009, 11:43:52 AM
Adenauer


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- come & vote in our Big Final: ADENAUER - BRANDT
Post by: big bad fab on July 20, 2009, 04:17:45 PM
Already our biggest turnout !
Very fine !
And it's very competitive... suspenseful until the end, I like it !

Come & vote, go & make forumers vote !


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- come & vote in our Big Final: ADENAUER - BRANDT
Post by: Lief 🗽 on July 20, 2009, 05:03:30 PM
eliminate Adenauer


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- come & vote in our Big Final: ADENAUER - BRANDT
Post by: tmthforu94 on July 20, 2009, 06:51:48 PM
Brandt


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- come & vote in our Big Final: ADENAUER - BRANDT
Post by: Lincoln Republican on July 20, 2009, 09:55:56 PM
Adenauer


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- winner: Willy BRANDT, over Adenauer !
Post by: big bad fab on July 21, 2009, 09:25:36 AM
IT'S OVER !

And, after a very competitive final round, with our biggest turnout, Willy Brandt eventually prevailed over Konrad Adenauer !

()

Not a big surprise, but it was a fine Survivor, I think,
with some early oustings: Bismarck, Brüning, Kohl,...
and some late ones: Kiesinger, Fehrenbach,...

And don't forget fine Survivors are "on": World Leaders, French 20th century, US governors
And more other Survivors will also come soon !

I let this topic open for any comment....


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- winner: Willy BRANDT, over Adenauer !
Post by: minionofmidas on July 21, 2009, 12:52:43 PM
Total of 9-8.

Hey OWL, willkommen zurück! Lange nicht gesehen.

(I hope you counted his vote, otherwise it's 9-7.)


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- winner: Willy BRANDT, over Adenauer !
Post by: big bad fab on July 21, 2009, 12:56:11 PM
Total of 9-8.

Hey OWL, willkommen zurück! Lange nicht gesehen.

(I hope you counted his vote, otherwise it's 9-7.)

Nope, it's 10-8, including OWL's vote, of course.
(see opening post)


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- winner: Willy BRANDT, over Adenauer !
Post by: minionofmidas on July 21, 2009, 12:58:06 PM
Alright, so I miscounted. (Or you did. I'm not going to check. Probably me, anyways. :P )


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- winner: Willy BRANDT, over Adenauer !
Post by: minionofmidas on July 21, 2009, 02:48:08 PM
The point that this is the Warsaw ghetto uprising, and not the Warsaw uprising, and that apparently some people in Poland found this wrong (or at least lacking in a similar gesture for the ethnic Poles) was quite missed by the German public, btw.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- Round 26- come & vote in our top 8 !
Post by: big bad fab on July 21, 2009, 05:08:26 PM
Some statistics:

Biggest total of votes in the round when eliminated:
Adenauer: 10 (but in the final)
Hitler, Scheel: 9

Lowest total of votes in the round when eliminated:
Bismarck, Bethmann-Hollweg: 2

Biggest vote in a round though not being eliminated:
Brandt: 8 (but in the final)
Bauer, Schröder, Schmidt: 4

Biggest total of votes up to elimination:
Schmidt, Adenauer (with the final): 15
Erhard: 14
Schröder: 13
Merkel: 12

Biggest rate of valid votes:
Hertling: 100% (88,9% with invalid vote included)
(Hitler, Scheel: 90%)

Eliminated with less votes than in his "best" round:
Bauer 3 (vs 4 previously)

Eliminated with only a plurality of votes:
Krosigk: 4 out of 9
Papen: 3 out of 7
Bismarck: 2 out of 5
Bethmann-Hollweg: 2 out of 5
Brüning: 5 out of 11
Kiesinger: 3 out of 7

Eliminated without having received votes in previous rounds:
(Hitler), Goebbels, Krosigk, Papen, Brüning, Kiesinger, Fehrenbach

Biggest delay between first vote and ousting:
Merkel: 2->28
Scheel: 2->21

Biggest delay without any vote:
Adenauer: 1->30

Lowest number of votes:
(Brandt: 1 without the final)
Papen, Bethmann-Hollweg, Kiesinger, Fehrenbach: 3

Biggest turnout:
18 (final)
11 (rounds 2-Goebbels, 16-Brüning, 22-Erhard, 27-Wirth)

Lowest turnout: 5
(rounds 7-Bismarck, 8-Bethmann-Hollweg, 9-Bülow, 12-Luther, 17-Bauer)


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- winner: Willy BRANDT, over Adenauer !
Post by: Lief 🗽 on July 21, 2009, 05:13:54 PM
Yay! Brandt is one of my favorite world leaders/politicians ever. Glad to see he won.


Title: Re: GERMAN CHANCELLORS SURVIVOR- winner: Willy BRANDT, over Adenauer !
Post by: MASHED POTATOES. VOTE! on July 21, 2009, 05:49:14 PM
The point that this is the Warsaw ghetto uprising, and not the Warsaw uprising, and that apparently some people in Poland found this wrong (or at least lacking in a similar gesture for the ethnic Poles) was quite missed by the German public, btw.

Yes, I know, but still I highly respect Brandt for his ghetto gesture.

After all, this was not a common gesture.