Pew Research: Sweden might be 30% Muslim by 2050

[Famous Mortimer]

You guys really need to agree on a single argument. Right now some of you are saying "Don't be a conspiracy theorist, Sweden will never be run by sharia!", while others are saying "OK, so Sweden will be run by sharia, but you as a dhimmi can always just pay the jizya, so what's the problem, bigot?"

Or, here's a thought, it could be one complete argument: "This idea of Sweden becoming 30% Muslim is very unlikely and based on dodgy data, but even if it were true, this wouldn't actually be anywhere near as big a problem as you think it is."

I mean, by the time you get to the third generation, you're about as 'integrated' as any native person.

It's telling that even apologists for Muslim immigration use as a defense "don't worry, their children won't be THAT Muslim" implying that they realize Islam is a problem.

Anyway, with regards to your actual arguments about integration, as the other immigration apologists have pointed out, trends do not continue indefinitely.

You can not assume that millions of people living in self contained ghettos will assimilate to European culture at the same rate as people who came 30 years ago and were completely immersed in a 90% ethnic European population on arrival.

[Famous Mortimer]

Do these projects taken into account family reunification?

[Famous Mortimer]

You're the one telling us Israel is a perfect democracy. I'm asking you what the percentage of Muslims is there. Simple question.

[citation needed]

but surely you are too smart to believe that what has happened in Russia or even Turkey is possible in Israel. Surely you know even better than I that Israel is a mature democracy in which the population would not accept a crackdown on basic democratic rights and in which the system has enough checks and balances to prevent this from happening. Which does not mean that what Netanyahu is doing now is acceptable, of course, or that citizens should close their eyes for it -- on the contrary.

And where do I say that Israel is a perfect democracy? That's right -- nowhere, because it isn't and I would never claim it is. Still better than the Belgian one though...

You certainly seem to think it is extremely resilient and have regularly upheld it as an example. I'm simply asking you how Israel maintains such high standard (that I am not necessarily challenging) with such a large muslim minority. It could come in handy given we are apparently being invaded by "the Muslims"

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What a poor ad hominem this is. Not all of us are blindly loyal to our government policies; institutions and received identities the same way you are.

I mean, if you’re saying that these figures are overblown, you must be expecting Europe to severely restrict migration, particularly from refugees, as even the medium scenario assumes no future refugee crisis, when in reality war and increasingly climate change can be expected create large numbers of refugees in the Middle East and North Africa.

Exactly. Nobody in this thread is actually disputing these figures with arguments. Please, European lefties, ask yourselves whether you will be as free as you are right now in a country that is not 5% but 15-30% Muslim (and perhaps 50% or more in 2100). And if you are, will working-class people, or women, or gay people in your country be?

First tell us

1/ the proportion of Muslims in Israel
2/ which parts of Israel are under Sharia law, and which aspects of Israeli democracy are under threat because of point number 1.

Then I'm sure we'd love to hear about horseshoe theory again.

You're bringing up Israel as an example that a large Muslim population does not lead to problems? Love it! Hope you will continue to refer to this lovely country in a positive way. Please also continue your obsessive streak of always bringing up Israel whenever I'm discussing completely unrelated issues.

Didn't answer the questions.

You're the one telling us Israel is a perfect democracy. I'm asking you what the percentage of Muslims is there. Simple question.

But completely irrelevant to a European context, so please take it elsewhere.

His argument is that a permanent Muslim minority of around 20-30% would be a threat to our democracy.

Regardless of the number, I am asking him to demonstrate how a democracy he upholds as an example is struggling to maintain its values against the Muslim minority there?

I'm rather asking you my counter-question (egg/chicken or chicken/egg ?), before we can even debate your question ...

Why do you mass-immigration fetishists

I just told you that the issue of migration is one of straining public services and housing. That should indicate I am not in favour of "inviting the entire third world in my back garden", as you nutjobs regularly accuse people from the left of suggesting.

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I'm asking you to change the unit of analysis. As Crabcake says; it is often not an issue of religious identity but of education. If you frame it as a religious identity issue you will create political Islamism rather than actually fight it.

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 Irish people in the UK were considered culture hostile too. And Congolese in Belgium. Yugos in Germany. I could go on.

Israeli Arabs are constantly agitating to open the borders to millions of their co-ethnics who would demographically swamp the country. The only reason this doesn't happen is because the current government imposes discriminatory immigration laws and has declared the vast majority of popular Arab political discourse to be illegal and punishable by prison.

So yes, Israel is a good parallel to draw. Europe could definitely survive in more or less its current economic and cultural shape with a 20% Muslim population if it committed to only allowing white people to immigrate and outlawing Muslim political thought.

[Famous Mortimer]

More to the point, studies show that even 3rd generation immigrants are discriminated against in Europe. If we maybe stopped caring so much about identity and more about capability, there'd be more "Arab guys in suits", as you put it parochial.

You assume they don't become assimilated against because they are discriminated against.

It's probably the other way around.

[Famous Mortimer]

More to the point, studies show that even 3rd generation immigrants are discriminated against in Europe. If we maybe stopped caring so much about identity and more about capability, there'd be more "Arab guys in suits", as you put it parochial.

You assume they don't become assimilated against because they are discriminated against.

It's probably the other way around.

Regardless of your flawed logic, my main point is that you should judge people individually rather than as a group. You discriminate based on their own personal characteristics and their previous actions. Anything identity-related should be merely an accessory. It might be interesting but it does not have to define you as a person.

I have absolutely no interest in playing speleology with identity based on your ancestors, your culture of "origin", the religion you think you know like the back of your hand, even your god damn genetics. For me its just accessory.

And if you follow the logic above, you will understand why enacting policies that akin to collective punishment is a no-no in the opinion of many people on the Left.

An accessory to what? You yourself call being a Muslim "identity related" so you acknowledge that it plays a role in their identity as people.