America is becoming MORE homophobic (new polls)

[Hydera]

So I'm a white-nationalist Nazi.  I'm jewish dude.

  

No your Arkansas Yankee.

I'm not surprised at the polls results, and I think there's definitely been some backlash to homosexuality in the last few years. Gay people have appeared with increasing frequency in media and have gained new legal rights with Obergefell. In this country, basically any time something progressive happens (see e.g. Obamacare, Roe v. Wade, civil rights), there's usually a conservative backlash. Two steps forward, one step back.

George Bush's crusade against gay marriage in 2004 made people think consenting gay relationships should be illegal and it took three years for should be legal to be majority again.  Politics does have an impact.

[Hydera]

True, I have no evidence. Or if I do, it's only anecdotal.

I know a lot of my friends, apolitical or even left-wing people, have shifted from being full on pro-gay liberation back to a sort of moderate liberal from the 90s position, like "I'm glad they have equal rights but it's kind of creepy that my facebook feed is full of transgender children, do they have to push this stuff so actively?"  Of course, this is the minority position I've encountered but it's a significant and growing one. I suspect even more people would back it in an anonymous survey. No proof, just a guess.

Well, your friends are pretty dumb for associating trans issues with general gay issues. I can certainly understand getting creeped out by trans kids, but how would that roll over to having negative views of your average gay man?

People in the 00's were creeped out by parents allowing their gay kids be gay. It was a scandal in Fox News a lot of times. Since homophobes targeted transgender people after losing the battle to shame gay people into being straight. Transgender people are just getting the full blunt of the same negative prejudices that gays had. ex: being called faking for attention, creeping on kids(soc-cons used this for decades, being a threat to non-transgender people as gay people were considered potential rapists of men or women if lesbian).

[Hydera]

I don't know why liberals on this board engage in bad faith interpretations so often. It doesn't make your argument look stronger, it make you look stupid.

Perhaps because your statement left room for interpretation, and in making that interpretation I applied Occam's Razor?

People came around on gay marriage because it was an abstract issue that only affected other people. Many of those who support gay marriage would go apesh**t if their kid came out. It just goes to show you that “tolerance” means you’re okay with gays, blacks, Muslims, etc. as long as they don’t move next door.

This is true. Exposure to other types of people tends to make people less tolerant. You're going against liberal orthodoxy by admitting this.

You're also going against science.

but now we see that it's a mainstream liberal position that children should be given sex change hormones and puberty blockers.

There obviously was a slippery slope and people feel like they were tricked into supporting gays under false pretenses.

I don't know why liberals on this board engage in bad faith interpretations so often. It doesn't make your argument look stronger, it make you look stupid.

This is true. Exposure to other types of people tends to make people less tolerant. You're going against liberal orthodoxy by admitting this.

Why does an ostensible Democrat from New York(!) dislike liberals so much? Honest question, one which I asked before and which you ignored.

You have socially consevative but economically leftwing democrats and economically neoliberal social liberal democrats just as you have anti trump republicans who care more about tax cuts and side with social liberals on social issues. and pro trump republicans who care more about their rightwing position on social issues.

[Hydera]

This is basically entirely a result of the new prominence of the transgender movement.

A lot of people came around to acceptance of gays because they were convinced by arguments that "gays just want the same rights as you, there's no slippery slope"

but now we see that it's a mainstream liberal position that children should be given sex change hormones and puberty blockers.

There obviously was a slippery slope and people feel like they were tricked into supporting gays under false pretenses.

progressive cultural shifts engender backlash. advocating for social equality and acceptance for ethnic, religious, and sexual minorities wakes people up. seeing opposition to these movements should inspire a greater push to advance equal rights and acceptance, not cowardice and retreat (like mortimer's explanation).

if someone was supportive of homosexuality, but then heard about transgender people and got turned off, then lemme say this: i understand the hesitance to accept and understand people who are different from you. especially when those ppl are different in a way that seems new, that you're unfamiliar with. but the challenge for all of us, morally, is to have open minds and seek to understand people who are different from us.

the lgbt movement pushed for acceptance of gays and lesbians. they were on the right side of history and morality in the 50s and 60s, and they still are. transgender people have only pushed for acceptance more recently. understandably, more people are hesitant to accept them. but with greater understanding, things will change. and ppl pushing for transgender acceptance are on the right side of history and morality too.

there are differing opinions within the lgbt movement and within the left about how to understand and accept transgender people. most want to be open minded and sensitive to the experiences of those who feel differently with their gender identity. children understand their gender identity at the same time, regardless of whether they're transgender or not. children who are transgender should be treated appropriately with the consultation of parents and doctors. treatment to help them live their true gender identity may be necessary, especially to treat gender dysphoria (distress/harm caused by gender-sex mismatch).

regardless, for every theoretical parent who gives their child hormone therapy and puberty blockers, there are dozens of transgender children and young adults who kill themselves because their families reject them or kick them out. it's imperative that regardless of how you feel about treating these kids, they are real; being transgender is real, natural, and kids should be accepted and loved.

Also the medical community regards sex hormone blockers(testosterone blockers for possibly mtf children and estrogen blockers for ftm children) to be safe. Liberal parents in the 00s got a lot of hatred and abuse when they had a child who was gay and they decided to accept their child. Conservatives attacked these parents for "brainwashing their children into being gay". Nobody remembers it now. But the same people who attacked gay children are now attacking transgender children with the same "their too young!!" argument.

The reason why possibly transgender kids are given medicine to block secondary sexual characteristics from occurring is to give them more time untill their around the 16-18 range and decide if they were transgender or not.

So lets say of kids who had been brought to a gender clinic at a young age. well 60-65% desist. The ones who don't are the ones who were grouped with gender nonconforming kids who later conformed and desisted by age 10-11.  However what do we do with the transgender kids who are persistently trans? do we just tell them to bugger off? Giving these kids who continued to persist with gender dysphoria and likely are not the ones who persisted. Sexual hormone blockers. it ensures that the child does not develop features of their birth sex. For mtf kids(no deep voice, no masculine facial structure, no facial and excessive body hair) for ftm kids(no breasts).

Because these blockers which if they decide they weren't transgender after all they could simply stop taking them and they get the puberty of their birth sex.

However if they are transgender then because of the medication they didn't need to spent money as a ftm for $5000-6000 for breast removal. or for mtf a magnitude of surgeries like Vocal surgery, facial surgery and laser hair removal. of which costs $25,000.   

Giving them blockers which cost $300-3000 a year depending on the medication. saves them much more money then they otherwise would of had to save for surgery.

Just saying they should wait until their adults to get medicine is making them go through struggle that never needed to happen just because people find transgender people icky.

[Hydera]

"These drugs we just started using are safe. Please don't ask how we know they are safe. We just know, it's bigotry to ask. Well yes, they cause you to have a micropenis and that can never be undone but they're still safe because they don't kill you that we know of, except for the fact that people claiming to be transgender actually become more likely to kill themselves the more they medically transition but that doesn't count. The drugs themselves don't kill you. Probably."

https://www.endocrine.org/news-room/press-release-archives/2013/medical-intervention-in-transgender-adolescents-appears-to-be-safe-and-effective

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https://endocrinenews.endocrine.org/blocking-puberty-in-transgender-youth/

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https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/102/11/3869/4157558


https://www.endocrine.org/news-room/current-press-releases/experts-issue-recommendations-for-gender-affirmation-treatment-for-transgender-individuals

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If somebody is transgender and they have a micro-penis like.... how is that even a bad thing to them? Do you think their upset about the size of their penis?   It seems like your projecting your own mentality onto transgender people.



Also for suicide the suicide is over how society treats transgender people like sh**t. Being mocked, physically assaulted for looking transgender if they sadly don't pass, not being hired, being homeless. The same things that happened to most gay people. In fact the suicide attempt rate of transgender people is no different from the rates of gays in the 1990's of 40%.  And it only went down when gay acceptance went higher and higher. but i guess those gays who killed themselves shouldnt have been gay in the first place in your opinion right?

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/859583

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[Hydera]

Why does every thread relating to gays become a debate about trans rights with one person playing the "trans is bad" side? This happened on the damn thread about Nancy Pelosi guest judging on Drag Race, too.

Because  of 'Famous Mortimer'.


Basically conservatives are giving up fighting gays and turning to fighting transgender people. Because transgender people are a new concept to a lot of people it means that not all of the people who accept gays also accept transgender people and theres also people who have a no-opinion on transgender people. And then you have people who are fine or claim they are but arent, with gay people but against trans rights because to them transgender people are "icky".

[Hydera]

This might have something to do with the attacks on religious freedoms of businesses.

I Guess muslims should be able to refuse service to non-muslims huh,