Is this a justifiable reason to support LGBT normality as a Christian? (user search)
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  Is this a justifiable reason to support LGBT normality as a Christian? (search mode)
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Author Topic: Is this a justifiable reason to support LGBT normality as a Christian?  (Read 2720 times)
Kingpoleon
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« on: November 09, 2017, 05:29:17 PM »

I haven't studied the passages in depth, but you'd certainly have some verses in Romans and 1 Corinthians to contend with.  If you don't consider those books of the Bible as inspired, then it's very reasonable to support LGBT normality in the church as a Christian, but it's a trickier proposition if you do.

Again:

As far as Romans goes, the Bible makes it very clear that the sin there was lust. This is the sin - they were having homosexual relations not because of their sexuality, but because of their lust. Desire is the root of all our sin, as James makes clear repeatedly. As far as being unnatural, that’s also a phrase Paul uses for men with long hair - that most Christians say is a synonym for “unconvential.” Overall, though, I must note that the love in a marriage, gay or straight, is very different from (im)pure, unadulterated lust.


Let me quote Matthe Vines on 1 Corinthians 6:9-10,
“In this text, Paul uses two Greek words—malakoi and arsenokoitai—that likely refer to some forms of male same-sex behavior, but not the modern concept of homosexuality. The predominant forms of same-sex behavior in the ancient world were sex between masters and slaves, sex between adult men and adolescent boys, and prostitution. In all those cases, men used sex to express power, dominance and lustfulness, not self-giving love and mutuality. Committed same-sex unions between social equals represent very different values than the types of same-sex behavior Paul would have had in view in 1 Corinthians 6.”

The German word for homosexual there is “Kinderschänder” - literally, boy-molester. The NRSV, the most accurate version of the Bible according to many, uses the term “male prostitutes.”
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2017, 02:42:11 PM »

Concept of gay and straight didn't exist at the time-exactly, Paul condemns having sex with the same sex and he condemns it for everyone.  The early Christians, who understood the Ancient Greek text better than any of us ever could, universally understood this.  While much of ancient Greek and Roman homosexuality was child molestation, not all of it was.  Same-sex marriages were occasionally performed (Nero was involved in same-sex weddings).  Nero was known to have relationships with men, both adults and children.  Elagabalus played the part of the bride in a marriage to another man.  There is also the story of Hadrian and his male lover.  To say that nothing resembling modern homosexuality existed in ancient times is inaccurate.  To say that God only put a condemnation of homosexual relations in the Bible because such relations were exploitative implies that God couldn't have foreseen modern homosexual relations.

The text says that natural relations for men are with women, and states that the men abandoned relations with women for relations with the same gender.  There is no mention of prostitutes.  There is no mention of young boys.  It refers to men having sex with men, not boys.  It also said that the women were doing the same thing that the men were.  Were women seeking out prostitutes?  It says Even their women, implying that what the women were doing was typically a male vice.  And homosexuality certainly seems to have been more common among men than it was among women in ancient times.

Furthermore, look at 1 Corinthians 6:9-10:

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ἀρσενοκοῖται means men having sex with men.  In the Greek translation of Leviticus (which Paul almost certainly had access to), the same word is used in the condemnation of homosexual relations.  With all this in mind, I can't come to any other conclusion than that the Bible opposes homosexual relations.

In Romans, the sin is lust. How do you not see this?

As for 1 Corinthians 6, let’s look at who he is writing to, as he seems to have made up the word “ἀρσενοκοῖται” as a combination of “men” and “bed”. This would seem to give a variety of meanings, including male prostitution or pederasty. The latter makes the most sense, as pederasty was a Greek practice, and Corinth was in Greece. In context, this makes the most sense as a reference to pederasty. Besides the potential meaning of pederasty or idol/ritual sex, there is also the potential for this to mean same sex rapists.
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