We have a Pope

[Joe Republic]

Out with the old, in with the old.

[Joe Republic]

The liberal cardinals are already demanding a recount.

[Joe Republic]

Hopefully, the church does split over this.  The true believers can stay in the church and those who don't follow Catholic teachings will leave like they should.

Here's one for you Josh:

Funny thing, though, Bush wouldn't make a good Catholic.
They are against things like war, capital punishment and economic injustice.

I'm a Catholic and I'm for all those things.

That's certainly a pickle.  If the Catholic Church does split, and like you say, the 'true' Catholics stay behind, that'll include most neo-cons in America then I guess.

[Joe Republic]

Any conservative Catholics feel like responding to my last post?

[Joe Republic]

I don't think the Iraq War was wrong, because from my analysis, it meets the criteria of the just war theory.

I disagree on that.  I don't really think the idea of 'just war' was really on Bush's mind when he began the war.

As far economic injustice, I donate my money, time, and talents to volunteer work and that's about all you can do other than pay taxes.

I would go as far as to say that Catholic teaching on 'economic justice' would support the idea of economic socialism over capitalism, but that would be a very weighty philosophical argument that I'm not really in the mood for.

On the death penalty, I feel it should only be used on the worst and still dangerous criminals and that it needs major reform to make sure we execute only guilty people. I've discussed this with my priest and while he disagreed with me, he acknowledged that he knew where I was coming from on this issue.

I appreciate your dissent with the Catholic church on this, because everybody should be free to disagree with aspects of the doctrine if they disagree with it.

By the same logic other Catholics should be free to disagree with different portions of their church's teachings without fear of being called 'untrue Catholics'.  Nobody should really have the right to say that IMO.

[Joe Republic]

I don't think the Iraq War was wrong, because from my analysis, it meets the criteria of the just war theory.

I disagree on that.  I don't really think the idea of 'just war' was really on Bush's mind when he began the war.

There is such a thing as a just war, but if the Pope said try peace before war, then I would have done just that. However, I think we should have waited until we finished in Afghanistan, making whether or not to go to war with Iraq a moot point.

As far economic injustice, I donate my money, time, and talents to volunteer work and that's about all you can do other than pay taxes.

I would go as far as to say that Catholic teaching on 'economic justice' would support the idea of economic socialism over capitalism, but that would be a very weighty philosophical argument that I'm not really in the mood for.

I think each person should do what they can to help those in need, but it is not the responsibility of the government to force people to do that. A Church / non-profit, a business, and the government should not all be run in the same manner.

On the death penalty, I feel it should only be used on the worst and still dangerous criminals and that it needs major reform to make sure we execute only guilty people. I've discussed this with my priest and while he disagreed with me, he acknowledged that he knew where I was coming from on this issue.

I appreciate your dissent with the Catholic church on this, because everybody should be free to disagree with aspects of the doctrine if they disagree with it.

By the same logic other Catholics should be free to disagree with different portions of their church's teachings without fear of being called 'untrue Catholics'.  Nobody should really have the right to say that IMO.

This is a tough one for me. The death penalty is used too often. I think there are cases such as the Kidnap, Rape, and Murder cases of people younger than 10 (3 in the last month) that deserve the death penalty. However, the church says we should oppose the death penalty. Although opposition to the death penalty is not emphasised as much as opposition to abortion, it is the same prinicipal. I do worry about being an 'untrue Catholic'. A true or untrue Catholic has been referred to as in union with the Holy See meaning Catholics must respect the authority of the Pope.

Since the legalization of abortion and the death penalty, it has generally been conservatives and liberals both favoring one and opposing the other, with there usually not being a candidate opposed to both. While we should not pick and choose which parts of Catholic doctrine we agree and disagree with, our choices are limited by what is on the ballot so either we choose one or we don't vote.

An excellent post, especially the last paragraph.

[Joe Republic]

I disagree on that.  I don't really think the idea of 'just war' was really on Bush's mind when he began the war.

I could care less what was on Bush's mind. The fact was that it meets the criteria under the Just War theory.  The Holy Father was wrong on this one.

I don't mean to sound facetious, but I thought the Holy Father was never wrong?  Either you support his position or you disagree with Catholic teaching - that's my understanding.

[Joe Republic]

Joe Republic,

As I have been informed by Phil and Supersoulty, the Pope is only infallible because the Church is infallible, and he is therefore only infallible when speaking on behalf of the Church from the Chair of St. Peter.  As a non-Catholic, I too misunderstood this doctrine.  Apparently, the Pope's words are rarely considered infallible and his infallible statements are only issued on rare occaisions.

The last Pope had effectively abandoned Just War Theory (flawed as it may be) and become a pacifist for all practical purposes, though he pretended that Just War Theory supported his opposition to both the 1991 and 2003 Gulf Wars.

This may be true, but if I chose to listen to Catholic doctrine on the subject of war, I would prefer to listen to the views of the Pope himself than the actual theory as outlined in the various teachings.  Reason being that after all, the Pope is supposed to have the highest understanding of the church's teachings and of God's will.