Israel general discussion

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Gabay admitted that the falling of the Labour party on the polls is part of his fault,now he should step down and give to a real leader the chance to beat the corrupt Likud government.
My offer is Tzipi Livni-smart,talented,charismatic,experienced and beautiful women.

The leader of the ZU must be the leader of the Labour party. As to her appearance, I don't see how that's relevant, Shaked is rather attractive yet I would rather have Hazan as PM.

Well the news is all doom and gloom today with everyone asking when instead of if he should resign\be forced out. I think it will take a while but when it does it will be similar to the last 2 days, one crack in the dam and the coalition with his premiership will be dead and we'll have a snap election.

If Livni would decide to run separately from the Labour,she has my vote.
I am not ready to support right-winger even if he is from my party.
Snap election isn't going to happean! Kahlon made it pretty claer.

Livni isn't that much of a leftist either. I respect her, but she was a classical Likud member once, then she was a centrist, then she joined Netanyahu's government (and sat with Bennett) and now she's in an alliance with Labour. That's not a particularly leftist record.

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So, uh, is this, like, actually happening? Is Bibi finally leaving the premiership once and for all? This is surreal.

It will be a while still but legally I can’t see him escaping indictment now let alone actual jail time. I would caution that he’s going to burn every bridge and create every constitutional crisis he can along the way. Likud voters don’t care much for this anyway so they’ll support him even if he’s charged with murder. they are really the lowest form of citizens, I have more fruitful discussions with JH voters

But wouldn't he become toxic to Likud's chances in the next election? I say this because here we had, and still have, a similar situation involving the former PS PM José Sócrates. At the beginning almost everybody in the PS, except Costa, supported him and tried to defend him but as time passed, and the proofs became more and more irrefutable, the support some PS members were giving him was, in part, damaging the PS in the polls, leading to their defeat in the 2015 elections.

My point is that Bibi could become a liability to the party, but how powerfull is the Likud "establishment" in order to force him out in a way to save their chances in the next elections?

So, uh, is this, like, actually happening? Is Bibi finally leaving the premiership once and for all? This is surreal.

It will be a while still but legally I can’t see him escaping indictment now let alone actual jail time. I would caution that he’s going to burn every bridge and create every constitutional crisis he can along the way. Likud voters don’t care much for this anyway so they’ll support him even if he’s charged with murder. they are really the lowest form of citizens, I have more fruitful discussions with JH voters

But wouldn't he become toxic to Likud's chances in the next election? I say this because here we had, and still have, a similar situation involving the former PS PM José Sócrates. At the beginning almost everybody in the PS, except Costa, supported him and tried to defend him but as time passed, and the proofs became more and more irrefutable, the support some PS members were giving him was, in part, damaging the PS in the polls, leading to their defeat in the 2015 elections.

My point is that Bibi could become a liability to the party, but how powerfull is the Likud "establishment" in order to force him out in a way to save their chances in the next elections?

Unfourtunately, Israel isn't Portugal. It appears like you have an electorate with some morals that cares about corruption and wants its leaders to be... well, not criminals who act like mob leaders. In Israel, sadly, the electorate has been incited to see evil leftists everywhere- the media, the judiciary branch, and now even the police. For them, it's all the evil leftist elite trying to hunt their King. This is ironic, considering that of all people, Jews should know to recognize scapegoating and hatemongering. Hopefully I'm wrong, but this is my feeling about our political system right now, and why I find American politics more interesting. There's no hope in the end of the tunnel, not at the moment.

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Gabay admitted that the falling of the Labour party on the polls is part of his fault,now he should step down and give to a real leader the chance to beat the corrupt Likud government.
My offer is Tzipi Livni-smart,talented,charismatic,experienced and beautiful women.

The leader of the ZU must be the leader of the Labour party. As to her appearance, I don't see how that's relevant, Shaked is rather attractive yet I would rather have Hazan as PM.

Well the news is all doom and gloom today with everyone asking when instead of if he should resign\be forced out. I think it will take a while but when it does it will be similar to the last 2 days, one crack in the dam and the coalition with his premiership will be dead and we'll have a snap election.

If Livni would decide to run separately from the Labour,she has my vote.
I am not ready to support right-winger even if he is from my party.
Snap election isn't going to happean! Kahlon made it pretty claer.

Livni isn't that much of a leftist either. I respect her, but she was a classical Likud member once, then she was a centrist, then she joined Netanyahu's government (and sat with Bennett) and now she's in an alliance with Labour. That's not a particularly leftist record.

Maybe your idol mister kibin**at Margalit sees that being a former Likud member/voter
as a bad thing,but i don't see any problem.
Livni committed to the peace since she left the Liked with Sharon,Olmert and others.
She joined to a Liked govermont for a peace deal.

Lol, I'm just saying that if you accuse Gabbay of being a right-winger, Livni isn't some leftist hero either. That's all.

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On Wednesday the Haredi party want to pass in first hearing a new Basic Law that says Yeshiva study is a supreme value above equality so the SC will not be able to strike down draft exemption bills. Lieberman and Kachlon oppose this move (so should Bibi, most Likud members would like it either).

Jeez, living in a Theocracy is going to be so fun.

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The theocracy is inevitable as the Haredi are the only ones actually having kids

It's too bad that the secular right would rather be in bed with the ultraorthodox wing for their own goals rather than work with the centre/centre-left in order to maintain secularism.

Nah. There are a number of trends which I believe will counter that- Haredi youths are secularizing and leaving their sect in record numbers with the help of the information revolution, and the deaths of major Haredi leaders, which will lead to more and more fracturing and less and less authority for their heirs, will significantly weaken that community. In the end, the bubble will burst. There's a reason their leaders are panicking about Iphones and calling for them to be destroyed- they're shaking in fear that their zombies will start learning about the world and realize how outdated their sect is.

Just this week, the leader of an extremist Jerusalemite sect of the Litheanian Haredi community (which fractured after the death of their last leader into that one and a relatively more moderate one, whose leader also recently passed away) died. He constantly commanded mass protests against conscription, which completely jammed Jerusalem (and thus made him very hated by many, including myself), so he had control of his people. Now, he died without a clear heir afaik.

[America Needs R'hllor]

The theocracy is inevitable as the Haredi are the only ones actually having kids

It's too bad that the secular right would rather be in bed with the ultraorthodox wing for their own goals rather than work with the centre/centre-left in order to maintain secularism.

Nah. There are a number of trends which I believe will counter that- Haredi youths are secularizing and leaving their sect in record numbers with the help of the information revolution, and the deaths of major Haredi leaders, which will lead to more and more fracturing and less and less authority for their heirs, will significantly weaken that community. In the end, the bubble will burst. There's a reason their leaders are panicking about Iphones and calling for them to be destroyed- they're shaking in fear that their zombies will start learning about the world and realize how outdated their sect is.

Well, that's hopeful. I might actually move back to Israel if that's the case.

It's kinda sad, though, to see the death of the left wing in Israel. Maybe after Likud's troubles with Netayahu and the possible Lapid ministry (which will undoubtedly be a failure seeing as he has no spine or ideology), maybe the Left can roar back to life. 

Agreed, one can only hope. Right now, our political situation is very bleak- the people seem completely blind to Bibi's horridness and keep supporting him, and the left is miserable. There is, pretty much, no good option. But we'll see what happens in the future, I guess.

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Zehava Galon just dropped out of the Meretz leadership race.
I guess I'm endorsing Zandberg, but the chances I'm voting for Meretz in the election have just grown significantly lower.

@Vosem: This is an interesting post. Indeed, a more religious society doesn't mean one more friendly to the Haredim- we saw, for example, in the last mayoral race in the City of Beit Shemesh, that it was basically a proxy war between the Haredi population that invaded the city and claimed it as its own (represented by the incumbent, Mr. "There Are No Gays In Beit Shemesh") and a kippa-wearing candidate supported by both secular and religious voters who aren't Haredim- aka Datiim). The incumbent won, but in any case, we saw all stripes of Israeli society uniting against the Haredim. On the question of the draft, it makes sense that you'll see more support than, say, for public transportation in Shabbat- after all, the religious group ("religious zionism") are frevently pro-IDF. My points weren't backed by any statistics- I guess I'm just an optimist, but I believe that, with their powerful leaders dying off, the Haredi sect ultimately cannot survive in the modern world, kinda like primitive tribes in Brazil. There's simply no way to keep such a huge population enslaved to strict rules and restrictions on technology, sexuality and, for about a half of this population (women), their very independence as human beings, without that bubble bursting in the end.

EDIT: Looks like Ilan Gilon dropped out too?! All hail Queen Zandberg, I guess, but I have no idea what's happening and what deal they wrought.

EDIT2: Gilon dropped out because of health reasons. His voice seemed a bit slurred in the announcement video, but he didn't say the specific reason. I guess he felt free to drop out after he saw Zehava did.

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Breaking: it’s a coronation but the race is not over, Buskila is trying to pull the Galon supporters. I’m also suspicious when both this bitter rivals who can stand each others presence drop out within 20 minutes

Any chance someone new enters or nah?

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So the Haredi parties "suddenly" woke up and are threatening with an election sometime this year if some outrageous basic law that says, essentially, "studying Torah is a more important value than equality" isn't passed. The target is to prevent the Court from overturning the Haredi anti-conscription laws on the basis of the basic value of equality. But the timing is very, very suspicious. It's very clear that this was triggered by Bibi, the most blatantly corrupt and cynical man to ever set foot in the Knesset, trying to trigger a snap election and get himself a mandate.

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Dat Meretz tho. Also, these numbers are of course depressing etc. The only way to get rid of the wannabe despot is throwing him to jail, it seems, because our people are mind-controlled fanatics who don't care about corruption or basic democratic values.

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Dat Meretz tho. Also, these numbers are of course depressing etc. The only way to get rid of the wannabe despot is throwing him to jail, it seems, because our people are mind-controlled fanatics who don't care about corruption or basic democratic values.

Also because that the alternatives are weak,Amir Peretz would done much better in the polls.

I agree that the alternatives are weak, but I think that Peretz would've just been a stable leader rather than a gaffe-prone mess like Herzog or Gabbay (which, tbh, we already should've anticipated after how Margalit humiliated him), and would've constantly polled in the mid-to-high teens. The fact that Liked is at 30 mandates while the depths and darkness of the Netanyahu corruption are being revealed shows how hopeless our electorate is.

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Dat Meretz tho. Also, these numbers are of course depressing etc. The only way to get rid of the wannabe despot is throwing him to jail, it seems, because our people are mind-controlled fanatics who don't care about corruption or basic democratic values.

Also because that the alternatives are weak,Amir Peretz would done much better in the polls.

I agree that the alternatives are weak, but I think that Peretz would've just been a stable leader rather than a gaffe-prone mess like Herzog or Gabbay (which, tbh, we already should've anticipated after how Margalit humiliated him), and would've constantly polled in the mid-to-high teens. The fact that Liked is at 30 mandates while the depths and darkness of the Netanyahu corruption are being revealed shows how hopeless our electorate is.

You voted fot Gabbay in the second round,no?
I remeber the part of the debate that you talking about,it's probably hurted Margalit more than it hurted Gabbay.
The kibini**t video,his aggressive behavior cost him the leadership.
If he want to return to politicts he should hire other communications consultants.
It is not only Netanyahu's expected victory in the next elections that depresses me,i really don't know if the Labour Party in israel has a future.
Who will replace Gabbay after the next elections?
Peretz probably won't run again,Bar Lev has Charisma of a fish,Shapir too young.
Gantz? we saw how the last four Chiefs of Staff "succeeded" in politics.
I thought about Svetlova but i don't think that she will leave Livni.
What a depression.

I voted for Gabbay in the second round, yes, but I regret it. And maybe Margalit's attack against Gabbay did hurt him- it shouldn't have, because it caught Gabbay lying. And yes, I agree that the kibinimat videos were stupid. As for Labour... I agree that the future seems bleak, but they're still the party with the best slate of candidates overall, in my opinion. Maybe Shaffir is an option, I don't know. We'll see.

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Dat Meretz tho. Also, these numbers are of course depressing etc. The only way to get rid of the wannabe despot is throwing him to jail, it seems, because our people are mind-controlled fanatics who don't care about corruption or basic democratic values.

Also because that the alternatives are weak,Amir Peretz would done much better in the polls.

I agree that the alternatives are weak, but I think that Peretz would've just been a stable leader rather than a gaffe-prone mess like Herzog or Gabbay (which, tbh, we already should've anticipated after how Margalit humiliated him), and would've constantly polled in the mid-to-high teens. The fact that Liked is at 30 mandates while the depths and darkness of the Netanyahu corruption are being revealed shows how hopeless our electorate is.

You voted fot Gabbay in the second round,no?
I remeber the part of the debate that you talking about,it's probably hurted Margalit more than it hurted Gabbay.
The kibini**t video,his aggressive behavior cost him the leadership.
If he want to return to politicts he should hire other communications consultants.
It is not only Netanyahu's expected victory in the next elections that depresses me,i really don't know if the Labour Party in israel has a future.
Who will replace Gabbay after the next elections?
Peretz probably won't run again,Bar Lev has Charisma of a fish,Shapir too young.
Gantz? we saw how the last four Chiefs of Staff "succeeded" in politics.
I thought about Svetlova but i don't think that she will leave Livni.
What a depression.

I voted for Gabbay in the second round, yes, but I regret it. And maybe Margalit's attack against Gabbay did hurt him- it shouldn't have, because it caught Gabbay lying. And yes, I agree that the kibinimat videos were stupid. As for Labour... I agree that the future seems bleak, but they're still the party with the best slate of candidates overall, in my opinion. Maybe Shaffir is an option, I don't know. We'll see.

Shaffir (like a lot of Labor youth) is a crypto-one stater. I don't think she would help the party in the polls but even if she did though, a Prime Minister Shaffir would be the last Prime Minister of Israel.

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Just an interesting tidbit that shows why I'm voting based on social issues...
Apparently, our Ministry of Education (headed by leader of the Jewish Home religious party) has allowed schools to take additional money from parents for anything more than the most basic bagrut certificate (our high school graduation exams). That means, advanced math and English and a second choice subject that pretty much every student takes. So basically, discouraging our nation's youth from succeeding, an extremely dumb move
Why did it happen? Is capitalism at fault? Corporations? Why, no, it's once again the religious interest groups. A group of parents discovered that the money charged in some fee or another was being used not just for its purpose, but to fund salaries and other things in the religious education system. The Ministry confirmed it as illegal, the directors of these religious schools that are connected to the Jewish Home demanded the Minister find some way to let them keep charging this money, and viola. Just another way the greed and outrageous superior rights religious interest groups and organizations have over secular ones, forgive me for language, f***ed everyone else.

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Just an interesting tidbit that shows why I'm voting based on social issues...
Apparently, our Ministry of Education (headed by leader of the Jewish Home religious party) has allowed schools to take additional money from parents for anything more than the most basic bagrut certificate (our high school graduation exams). That means, advanced math and English and a second choice subject that pretty much every student takes. So basically, discouraging our nation's youth from succeeding, an extremely dumb move
Why did it happen? Is capitalism at fault? Corporations? Why, no, it's once again the religious interest groups. A group of parents discovered that the money charged in some fee or another was being used not just for its purpose, but to fund salaries and other things in the religious education system. The Ministry confirmed it as illegal, the directors of these religious schools that are connected to the Jewish Home demanded the Minister find some way to let them keep charging this money, and viola. Just another way the greed and outrageous superior rights religious interest groups and organizations have over secular ones, forgive me for language, f***ed everyone else.

Tbh if my memory serves me right parents used to pay for Bagruit during the Mapai-Labour era due to the law of mandatory education extending until the 9th grade then (it was like that with my old sister). Actually I think it was the Begin government that changed it

It's a very welcome change, then. I mostly brought this story to show why I'm voting mostly based on social issues- religious interest and pressure groups, whether they're Haredi or not, are just terrible.

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Netanyahu getting indicted will in no way cause middle Israel to suddenly turn to the left. The left can't "win"/form a government as long as they don't have a credible argument regarding the peace process and the security situation, with which they can win over middle Israel. Most people want a 2SS (the "Lieberman plan" with landswaps is probably the best and most popular one) but don't trust the Palestinian Authority not to turn the West Bank into a second Gaza and therefore prefer the status-quo, which Likud offers, over (perceived) uncertainty. Just like left-wingers are the best ones to implement budget cuts, right-wingers are the best ones to broker a peace deal. But as one-staters become more dominant on the right, it is doubtful whether a 2SS will ever happen. Only a dramatic change in the status-quo can alter the current trajectory.

What Labour needs to do is to show middle Israel that they are committed to Zionism, which means purging "post-Zionist" (BtS, Peace Now, the whole NGO world) elements from Labour. Let them go to Meretz. Make sure the "on whose side are you?" question is not on people's minds anymore. Meanwhile, credibly advocate for lasting peace and security in a 2SS from a Zionist perspective, provide an unashamedly Social Democratic alternative to Likud's agenda of economic inequality and oligarchy, and be committed to upholding freedom of and from religion. Become a party that credibly aims to unite Jewish Israelis from different backgrounds instead of ignoring all Jews outside the Tel Aviv metro.

That sounds sensible on paper, but it simply doesn't seem to work. I mean, Gabbay is trying exactly that, and the polls are making it clear that it's having a negative effect (though, admittedly, his gaffes about religion probably contributed to that). Netanyahu has, for years, effectively branded the left as illegitimate traitors who must be purged. He's a vicious politician, ready to trample over everyone and everything to keep his power, and so far it worked for him, at least politically if not personally. That's why he needs to go- a corrupt despot is definitely not what Israel needs. Without him, I agree that the Israeli population won't suddenly turn left, but who knows what'll happen? A new leader for Likud might not be able to keep the magic going. In my view, Bibi desperately needs to go, even if just to clean up and make our political system healthy again.

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Dumb question: how hard is it to tell Ashkenazi and Sephardic people apart? Is it really obvious to the eye, or would you need to listen to their accent or ask them directly to know?

In some cases it's clear, in many (and increasingly many, as intermarriage has become common) it isn't. You can sometimes tell from people's surnames, but even then these people might be mixed nowadays.

From the picture on the right it would be difficult for me to see whether she is Ashkenazi or Mizrahi. On the picture on the left it is clearer.

Most Ashkenazim of course do not look like the blonde model at all.

Most people generally don't look like models But yeah, many Israelis today are mixed anyway, which I think created the distinct "Israeli look" rather than just "European look" or "Arabic look".

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Knesset channel reported that Kachlon going to return to the Likud.

What? This is extremely bizarre right now. Would make sense after Bibi is indicted with the intention of running for leadership but this?

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*Snore*
I wish Galon and Gilon had stayed in, if only to make this more exciting.

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I don't know what the hell is going on in Israel, but I read that Netanyahu wants to retract the plan of deporting 37.000 illegal African immigrants to Rwanda and Uganda; instead, he now wants half of them to stay in Israel and half of them to be assigned a country through the UN refugee quota thing. For the latter category, Netanyahu apparently explicitly said that countries like Germany, Italy and Canada could take them, which is bafflingly stupid diplomatically, especially given how toxic this subject is. What's more, antisemites always say Israel/teh j00z want "diversity for thee, but not for me", which has always been easy for me to debunk; however, this action basically leaves me speechless when confronted with such accusations. If these people are not welcome in Israel (and they should not be welcome imo), why the hell does Netanyahu think Germany and Italy should take them in? Everything about this story seems to be outrageous, in addition to the fact that everyone involved here appears to be extremely incompetent, but I really hope the Dutch NRC Handelsblad has informed me wrongly, which tends to happen on issues regarding Israel. Could anybody explain to me why the original plan was cancelled? Who in the Knesset now stopped supporting it?

I believe that your media informed you fairly well. But, I mean, it's quite simple, no? Israel is a tiny country. These migrants are a big, real, and very well-felt problem that make life in many big cities and neighbourhoods horrible. Norway, Germany, Canada etc are large countries with plenty of space where this amount of African immigrants will be barely felt if at all. So I wholeheartedly support this agreement. But yes, it was stupidly done because it appears as if, like always, Bibi spoke before getting the permission of the countries he mentioned. In simple words, he lied. Like always.
What this tells you about Bibi, whether you support the agreement or not, whether your left or right, is that he's not a leader- he's not bold and brave like he pretends to be, but rather a coward, a pathetic straw swaying with the winds who gets scared by a few statements from Bennet.

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I agree that this was a PR disaster and done very incompetently by the Netanyahu government (like pretty much everything else). However, I'd argue that in substance this is a good deal for Israel- whether it's a good deal for other countries is another question, but I wouldn't fault my government for signing such a good deal. Forced deportations are not just terrible optics, but also very inhumane, and I wouldn't want to see them happening in my country, so this is in my opinion the only way to solve this problem. I'd also argue that landmass matters- these migrants have basically ruined the lives of Southern Tel Aviv residents, and it's a big problem. I don't know Norway enough, but I think they have the space to spread them enough so that it doesn't disrupt people's lives. If not, well, countries like Canada exist. Generally, it is my opinion that Canada and the U.S. are by far the most superior countries to take immigration, making me left-wing in regards to U.S. immigration matters and at the very least center-right in regards to European immigration.
But that's besides the point. I don't think that Israel should make decisions based on what a few right-wingers in Europe think (or for that matter, left-wingers too), it should make decision based on what's good for its citizens. I also believe that your friend's argument is pretty weak, because, indeed, it's much easier to strike a deal for a small number of immigrants than strike a deal that changes the location of a 'a much bigger number'.

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You say you are opposed to forced deportations and therefore support this deal. I am not sure what you think would happen to these 16k people who would be relocated through the UN deal. They would be forcefully deported from Israel too.

Meanwhile, is there anybody who could answer my initial question?

Somehow I think that the immigrants would happily agree to go to Canada or Germany without any need to use force The problem with sending them to African countries was that you couldn't guarantee their safety. The strategic argument has a point, but in my opinion the PR damage wouldn't be large enough to make this deal uncompelling.
As for the initial question, it's probably a combination of Netanyahu bending to the slightest of right-wing pressure and not actually talking to the leaders of the host countries before announcing, but I'm not 100% sure.

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You say you are opposed to forced deportations and therefore support this deal. I am not sure what you think would happen to these 16k people who would be relocated through the UN deal. They would be forcefully deported from Israel too.

Meanwhile, is there anybody who could answer my initial question?

Somehow I think that the immigrants would happily agree to go to Canada or Germany without any need to use force The problem with sending them to African countries was that you couldn't guarantee their safety. The strategic argument has a point, but in my opinion the PR damage wouldn't be large enough to make this deal uncompelling.
As for the initial question, it's probably a combination of Netanyahu bending to the slightest of right-wing pressure and not actually talking to the leaders of the host countries before announcing, but I'm not 100% sure.

He did the talking, Canada confirmed we were talking with Israel since a month. However, not  much has happened except than people with private sponsors will be allowed to stay in Canada until their immigration demand is ruled on (when the usual process is for them to stay where they were before, i.e. Israel).

Yeah, I meant actually reaching sustainable agreements before announcing stuff.

Re: Norway- I understand, but that's kind of besides the point, when countries like Canada (and Germany, though I personally do not believe it's a good country to receive immigration) exist.

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No discussion on Israel murdering unarmed protesters and journalists this week? Cool.

No, people who comment here are usually informed by local media with some knowledge of the issue rather than biased, misinformed international media like you consume.

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No discussion on Israel murdering unarmed protesters and journalists this week? Cool.

anyway I said to a friend a year ago that when Palestinians will march in their hundreds of thousands to the border it will be the end, we're not for from there. 

Well, if this becomes a tactic then we're gonna need to build a big, beautiful, powerful wall, and we'll have a large, beautiful door so that we can come in whenever we need to stop them from firing rockets at our civilians.