looks like Tsipras has folded

[ag]

And, mind it, I find it extraordinarily lenient that the Greeks have not been forced to sell the Parthenon, the contents of the National Arqueological Museum, or, say, a few islands, instead.

You realize that you're, shall we say, rather exceptional in considering those at all permissible or even plausible options.

I know these are not plausible. And find that unfortunate

[ag]

nor does it really redeem eating-the-seed-corn measures like selling off $50 billion in assets

THAT, is, actually, simply ridiculous. Government has no business owning that stuff in the first place.

And, mind it, I find it extraordinarily lenient that the Greeks have not been forced to sell the Parthenon, the contents of the National Arqueological Museum, or, say, a few islands, instead.

So, US government should sell Mt. Rushmore and the original Constitution paper to balance the budget?

US has no problem servicing its debt, does it?

Also, frankly, I do not believe you would find a good price on Mt. Rushmore - it is just too ugly. But, if one were to be found, why not?

[ag]

nor does it really redeem eating-the-seed-corn measures like selling off $50 billion in assets

THAT, is, actually, simply ridiculous. Government has no business owning that stuff in the first place.

And, mind it, I find it extraordinarily lenient that the Greeks have not been forced to sell the Parthenon, the contents of the National Arqueological Museum, or, say, a few islands, instead.

SERIOUSLY? Should Germany have sold their castles after the World Wars to pay its debt? Should Colonge Castle be stripped apart and moved to France for the occupation?

Your claims of not being anti-Greek seem very shoddy here.

Well, if we were back in 1921 or 1947, I would not be particularly averse to any of that. Hey, if anything got spared in bombing, that was already a mitzvah, was it not? And, most definitely, shipping of bits of arquitecture would have had a lot less of an impact on German economy than the reparations they were, actually, forced to pay post WWI.

The Cloisters in NY, BTW, is a masterpiece of museum work. And even in Mexico City, right next to where I live, there is a Spanish Chapel from the 12th century. Enjoy the view almost daily. Love it.

[ag]

I'm just not getting how these sorts of suggestions are supposed to be less objectionable than just forgiving Greece's debt or something would be.

Which suggestions?

If you can persuade German voters that their government should "forgive Greek debt", it would be forgiven. I guess, Germans find it objectionable.

[ag]

Selling the Parthenon, et cetera.

Selling Parthenon hurts exactly nobody. It is an expensive heirloom, that could fetch a good load of cash. You are out of cash. Why not sell it?

Now, all I have inherited from my remote ancestors is some obscure shoe-making equipment, which I have no clue how to use. Hard for me to see why anybody would not want Parthenon in the British Museum anyway.  Unless, of course, it is becasue they want it at the Pergamon

[ag]

I really don't understand where the German public is coming from on this, and it's difficult for me to wrap my head around whatever individual or crowd psychology it is that leads to such a relentlessly hardline stance. Maybe I'm just too softhearted.

Because you are asking them to pay for it. Either through taxes, or through seignorage. And, like most people out there, they do not want to pay for somebody else.

[ag]

Selling Parthenon hurts exactly nobody. It is an expensive heirloom, that could fetch a good load of cash. You are out of cash. Why not sell it?

You know, I think this is probably one of those 'if you don't get it, there's no way to explain it to you' sorts of things.

I'm pretty sure he grew up in the USSR, then made a career for himself in the West.  probably has a nice portfolio and everything.  such people hold "property rights" sacrosanct above all other rights.  the post-Castro Cuban emigres are horrible too.  I went to college with one -- she was really hot, but both of us saw fate pass us by as I apologized for Castro.

Wrong on most counts. Did grow up in the USSR. Studied in the US, true. Is Mexico "West"? Because that is where I have been since. Have very little saved: none invested in the market (university sallary, kids, schools cost money).  And, though I do have healthy respect private property, I do not view it as "sacrosant", nor do I consider it more important than basic human rights: quite the contrary. I do, however, find that private property is frequently very useful in protecting those rights - but that is another matter.

National pride, though, is not a human right

[ag]

Greek Kerensky prepares to expel SYRIZA rebels from the party

Yeah, you would prefer a Greek "for god's sake, shoot somebody" Lenin.

[ag]

Selling Parthenon hurts exactly nobody. It is an expensive heirloom, that could fetch a good load of cash. You are out of cash. Why not sell it?

You know, I think this is probably one of those 'if you don't get it, there's no way to explain it to you' sorts of things.

I'm pretty sure he grew up in the USSR, then made a career for himself in the West.  probably has a nice portfolio and everything.  such people hold "property rights" sacrosanct above all other rights.  the post-Castro Cuban emigres are horrible too.  I went to college with one -- she was really hot, but both of us saw fate pass us by as I apologized for Castro.

Wrong on most counts. Did grow up in the USSR. Studied in the US, true. Is Mexico "West"? Because that is where I have been since. Have very little saved: none invested in the market (university sallary, kids, schools cost money).  And, though I do have healthy respect private property, I do not view it as "sacrosant", nor do I consider it more important than basic human rights: quite the contrary. I do, however, find that private property is frequently very useful in protecting those rights - but that is another matter.

that's even worse then; property has a psychological hold on you and it hasn't even treated you all that well.

I am an economist. I know what role it plays   I also remember the Soviet Union too well. Which provides ample empirical confirmation for what happens if you are flippant with property rights. Trust me, it is not at all pretty.

[ag]

Perhaps not, but it is a fact in most countries around the world, and you must agree that a blow to national pride as severe as selling symbols of the country (like the Parthenon for Greece) would cause would create a much more powerful, and possibly violent, backlash than raising the same amount of money from slightly higher taxes or spending slightly less money on public services, even if a robot might calculate that the people would be better off in the first case.

This is, of course, why I am not serious about the Parthenon. I find this to be ridiculous, but I know the world I live in

[ag]

I think the disturbing thing for Eurozone countries is that, relatively speaking, Syriza is a moderate party. Greece has (and always has) an unusually strong far-left and far-right blocs both in and (more importantly, but less obvious for foreigners) out of parliament forces that oppose liberal democratic capitalism itself. Perhaps the EU bigwigs are under the impression that the humiliation of Tsipras et al. will lead the Greeks to swing back to the ND-centrist-PASOK block, especially with shiny young leaders for all three wings. This is playing with fire, to be honest; if a more disturbing and violent party arises Merkel, Rutte, Stubb and the like may regret their populist kneejerk anti-Syrizism.

I am afraid, they do not much care. That would provide unimpeachable grounds for kicking Greece out of the EU. From which point on it is not their responsibility. No matter who governs Grecce, Greek jackboots are unlikely to march across Europe - that is, unfortunately, the difference between Greece and Germany.

[ag]

Greek Kerensky prepares to expel SYRIZA rebels from the party

Yeah, you would prefer a Greek "for god's sake, shoot somebody" Lenin.

Of course it was Lenin who signed humiliating peace terms with the Germans. Kerensky is the guy who tried to continue fighting a losing war.

Kerensky was a guy who did not believe he had the right to make major decisions, as he was an unelected caretaker (he was only in - very limited - power for a few months anyway - the original Provisional PM was Prince Lvov). Elections to the Constituent Convention were held, as planned, shortly after the Bolshevik coup. And the Bolsheviks lost miserably (got about a quarter of the seats) - upon which loss they send in the guards to kick out the duly elected representatives of the people.

BTW, not that I care much about it, but the war was hardly losing - within a year the Germans collapsed themselves, and Russia would have been on the winning side.

[ag]

Even in that respect, the loss of such a key geostrategic country to nationalistic demagoguery would be quite a blow to what little remains of idealism in the European project, no? I also imagine the knock-on effects upon the Baltics would be pretty serious and ominous; Greece would be like a larger, more powerful and even more sullen Serbia.

In what sense is Greece "key" these days? It could be more than replaced with Turkey, anyway

The main effect on the Baltics would be to make them much more stringently pro-Western in general, and pro-German in particular.

[ag]

I understand that. But there should have been some limit, some point beyond which people started to realize that debt forgiveness would help Greece vastly more than it would hurt Germany, some point at which the insistence on taking the harshest imaginable line gave way to, if nothing else, pity. The fact that this didn't even come close to happening puts one in mind more of the attitudes that people have towards enemy Others than towards European partners, and I'm honestly outright repulsed by the nature and tone of political discourse within Germany. Again, maybe I'm too softhearted.

In the history of interactions between creditors and debtors, even when forgiving debt would help the debtor far more than it would hurt the creditor (as you say), normally the creditor does not forgive the debt, and in fact normally no one even expects him to. Germany is behaving the same way people have behaved basically since the invention of money.

The sensibility that debt should be forgiven under such circumstances, even if it's historically very atypical, has been common on the non-useless left for a while now, is the thing.

1. Persuade the German voters, and you will get it.

2. Forgiving the debts would not be enough, unfortunately.

[ag]

Greek Kerensky prepares to expel SYRIZA rebels from the party

Yeah, you would prefer a Greek "for god's sake, shoot somebody" Lenin.

Of course it was Lenin who signed humiliating peace terms with the Germans. Kerensky is the guy who tried to continue fighting a losing war.

Kerensky was a guy who did not believe he had the right to make major decisions, as he was an unelected caretaker (he was only in - very limited - power for a few months anyway - the original Provisional PM was Prince Lvov). Elections to the Constituent Convention were held, as planned, shortly after the Bolshevik coup. And the Bolsheviks lost miserably (got about a quarter of the seats) - upon which loss they send in the guards to kick out the duly elected representatives of the people.

BTW, not that I care much about it, but the war was hardly losing - within a year the Germans collapsed themselves, and Russia would have been on the winning side.

as someone who does care - the Bolsheviks had to use every last cigarette to win the civil war.  or at least had to prepare that way. and they were waiting on the German (and pan-European) revolution, etc.  and besides they might not have held power for a full year if they continued war that whole time.

all of which makes it hard to regard Brest-Litovsk as a Bolshevik tactical error.

The civil war did not start until 7 or 8 months after the events we are talking about. Except in a few places, the independence of which they claimed to recognize, they were in full control. They were able to kick out the freshly elected popular representatives with barely a murmur. The war started seriously after June 1918.

I am not saying BL was their error. The army was in no shape to fight - and, more importantly, they did not care about the treaties before the world revolution. It was not an error: it was ideology. And, of course, it was their ticket to power: the decision to stop was popular among the soldiers. Tellingly, at that point it was their main popular support (as confirmed by voting returns in November). Basically, their take-over was a military coup by the low ranks.

[ag]

Ultimately, Germany owes a lot to the Eurozone. It allows them to have a weak currency and boosts their exports. You'd think they'd be interested in making sure it sticks together...

If Germans wanted a week currency, they would have found a cheaper way of doing this without giving up the Mark. It seems pretty obvious they do not want a week currency.