LC 2.2 Transportation Improvement Bill (Rejected)

[Former President tack50]

Transportation Improvement Bill

Sponsor: Councilor Suburban NJ Conservative (F-NJ)

This bill calls for building a tolled closed system mega highway with a toll of $0.75 per mile, from Philadelphia to Buffalo

It also calls to add tolls to the following interstate highways at the price of $0.80 per mile: I-80 (PA), I-95 (RI), I-70 (IN)

It also calls to add express toll lanes at the price of $1.25 per mile on the following highways in the New York City area (I-495, I-278, I-95 (until Exit 14), I-695, I-295) and in the Philadelphia area (I-276, I-95, I-76 (until Schuykill Haven)

This bill also calls for renovating the Verrazano Narrows Bridge and mandating a toll hike of 50% on all existing Lincoln tolls to pay for it

The money generated from this toll revenue, will be used to make repairs to roads in poor conditions and also to make improvements to major airports, such as Chicago O’Hare, New York City’s JFK, and Boston Logan.

Sponsor: Suburban New Jersey Conservative

Debate time for this bill has started and shall last for no less than 72 hours

[Former President tack50]

Ammendment L 2:18 by S019

Transportation Improvement Bill

This bill calls for building a tolled closed system mega highway with a toll of $0.75 per mile, from Philadelphia to Buffalo

It also calls to add tolls to the following interstate highways at the price of $0.80 per mile: I-80 (PA), I-95 (RI), I-70 (IN)

It also calls to add express toll lanes at the price of $1.25 per mile on the following highways in the New York City area (I-495, I-278, I-95 (until from Exit 14 in NJ (Newark Airport), north to exit 6A in NY (I-678 (Bronx-Whitestone Bridge)), I-695 I-678, I-295) and in the Philadelphia area (I-276, I-95 from Exit 37 (PA-132 (Bensalem)) south to Exit 4 (US-322 (Chester)), I-76 (from the PA state line heading west until Schuykill Haven Exit 320 (PA-29 (Malvern)).


This bill also calls for renovating the Verrazano Narrows Bridge and mandating a toll hike of 50% on all existing Lincoln tolls to pay for it

The money generated from this toll revenue, will be used to make repairs to roads in poor conditions and also to make improvements to major airports, such as Chicago O’Hare, New York City’s JFK, and Boston Logan.

All tolls are to be collected in both directions. The tolls are for the entirety of the road, unless otherwise specified

Sponsor Feedback: Origination
Status: Added to the bill

[Former President tack50]

Also, I agree with Griff and ASV. This would be prohibitively expensive for the average Lincolnite. I am not 100% against toll roads, but they are a necessary evil that should be limited, not expanded.

I would prefer raising the gas tax or introducing some sort of road conservation tax if we want to make drivers pay for roads.

[Former President tack50]

Ok, decided to do a bit of analysis.

First of all, after looking a bit in Google Maps, I realized there is already a highway between Philadelphia and Buffalo for the entire length of the route.

Said route involves taking I-476 north up to Scranton, I-81 further north up to Syracuse and finally I-90 west to Buffalo. Said route is 400 miles long. Of course, it's not a straight line, so a road (or more likely, widening an existing road) could be built, but I have to wonder if there is enough demand for such a construction project. Anyone from the are who could tell us? I certainly can't see the need for this new construction.

I also decided to take a look at toll prices here just to see their prices (and because they are more accessible to me). Most tolls are on the ball park of 0.20$ per mile.

Even the most expensive one I was able to find was only around 0.26 $ per mile. Even if you take the heavy truck prices (this bill doesn't discriminate between trucks and cars) you still only get to 40 $ cents per mile.

Ninja also mentioned his local toll road being 0.25$ per mile. These new tolls are more than 3 times that. While I don't fully disagree with tolls depending on circumstances, the tolls proposed in this bill are way too high.

[Former President tack50]

I assume this amendment replaces this bill in its entirety.

Amendment L 2:25 by Adam Griffin

Transportation Improvement Bill

Section 1 (Title & Definitions)
1. For the purposes of this legislation, the word "road" refers to any avenue of transit.
2. For the purposes of this legislation, the word "toll" refers to any fee collected in exchange for access to a public or private avenue of transit.

Section 2 (Regulation of Toll Roads)
1. As of July 1, 2019, the practice of collecting tolls on any roads that are built and/or maintained with public funding shall be abolished.
2. As of July 1, 2019, any roads built and maintained exclusively with private funding may charge tolls, not to exceed $0.10 per mile.
3. As of July 1, 2019, all profits collected from tolls shall be taxed at a rate of 50%.

[/quote]

Sponsor feedback: Hostile
Status: 24h for debate

[Former President tack50]

I have to say that I do not support this amendment either. While SNJC's original bill is very bad, this amendment goes too far in the opposite direction. Tolls have a purpose in transportation and while they should be avoided, they are not the end of the world and are a decent idea depending on the circumstances, in order to raise revenue for road repairs, make construction cheaper (many times road construction is paid by giving a toll concession to the construction company) and even as a way to handle traffic.

[Former President tack50]

Councillors, a vote is now open on the following amendment

Amendment L 2:25 by Adam Griffin

Transportation Improvement Bill

Section 1 (Title & Definitions)
1. For the purposes of this legislation, the word "road" refers to any avenue of transit.
2. For the purposes of this legislation, the word "toll" refers to any fee collected in exchange for access to a public or private avenue of transit.

Section 2 (Regulation of Toll Roads)
1. As of July 1, 2019, the practice of collecting tolls on any roads that are built and/or maintained with public funding shall be abolished.
2. As of July 1, 2019, any roads built and maintained exclusively with private funding may charge tolls, not to exceed $0.10 per mile.
3. As of July 1, 2019, all profits collected from tolls shall be taxed at a rate of 50%.

[/quote]

Please vote AYE, NAY or Abstain
This vote shall last for 24h or until all councillors have voted
This amendment shall replace the bill in its entirety

[Former President tack50]

Nay

[Former President tack50]

Toll roads serve practically no effective purpose, their creation leads to much higher costs for consumers than the increase in taxes would require per capita, and a combination of $0.10 per mile + increased taxes for justified road work in my amendment is far less than pinging people the better part of a dollar per mile across a variety of arterial roadways.

Likewise, we do not have the capacity for feasibility studies that are actually worthwhile; we're talking about building new highways and converting major highways into toll roads that cost 2-3x per mile what gas + car maintenance costs. It's ridiculous, and the original bill as-is is all fluff and no substance.

If there is a need for new highways and roads, the public sector is more than capable of making those decisions based on the good of the people. If not - but there is a desire for such - then a private company can choose to build a road and maintain it on their own to supply such a service. Why so many are in favor of handouts to corporations and taxpayer burdens that line the pockets of a few is beyond me. Taxpayers shouldn't be subsidizing private businesses when there is a clear, defined and well-established public sector alternative. All it ends up creating is waste and price-gouging.

As I've said before, toll roads to serve a purpose in transportation.

In public roads, as I've said, you can either not pay (or pay less) for the actual construction, in exchange for tolls. You might argue that is a handout to construction companies and in fact this is a very common avenue for corruption, but with proper studies it can actually save taxpayers money.

It's also a decent idea to raise money for the government by putting tolls in public roads, and can work as an interesting alternative to raising the gas tax (though you may argue that gas taxes are better and more effective).

Finally, I will remind everyone that pretty much all roads are built with public money. Big construction projects are usually ordered by the state and not private corporations. So this amendment pretty much eliminates all tolls from Lincoln. I believe the current toll road policies are working fine and see no need for changes in either direction.

[Former President tack50]

The vote on Amendment L 2:25 by Adam Griffin is now closed

Aye: 4 (Pyro, thr33, Griff, Zaybay)
Abstain: 0
Nay: 3 (tack50, S019, lfromnj)
Not voting: 2 (Dipper Josh, Ninja)

So this amendment passes

[Former President tack50]

Well, it seems thanks to SNJC we have pretty much found a way for a sponsor of a given bill to unilaterally nullify any amendments he wants, even if the rest of the Council is in favour of them.

That seems to be something that can be easily abused and should be fixed. In any case, I am afraid as per the current rules I must do this:

Amendment L 2:29 by S019 to LC 2.2 Transportation Improvement Bill

This bill calls for building a tolled closed system mega highway with a toll of $0.75 $0.30 per mile, from Philadelphia to Buffalo

It also calls to add tolls to the following interstate highways at the price of $0.80 $0.40 per mile: I-80 (PA), I-95 (RI), I-70 (IN)

It also calls to add express toll lanes at the price of $1.25 $0.75 per mile on the following highways in the New York City area (I-495, I-278, I-95 (until Exit 14), I-695, I-295) and in the Philadelphia area (I-276, I-95, I-76 (until Schuykill Haven)

This bill also calls for renovating the Verrazano Narrows Bridge and mandating a toll hike of 50% on all existing Lincoln tolls to pay for it

The money generated from this toll revenue, will be used to make repairs to roads in poor conditions and also to make improvements to major airports, such as Chicago O’Hare, New York City’s JFK, and Boston Logan.

Sponsor feedback: Origination
Status: Added into the bill

This amendment replaces the bill in its entirety

[Former President tack50]

Seeing how SNJC could pretty much nullify any amendment (and this applies to any sponsor of any bill mind you), I guess this will be the best course of action:

I motion for a final vote. 24h to object

[Former President tack50]

Councillors, a vote on the objection to a final vote has started

Please vote AYE, NAY or Abstain
Since there is nothing in the rules specifying length, this vote shall last for 48h or until all Councillors have voted

As this piece of legislation has been on the floor of the Council for more than 240 hours, a simple majority is needed

[Former President tack50]

Aye

Do the people voting “AYE,” support this, or do you just want to kill the bill

Can't speak for anyone else, but I personally do want to kill this bill.

[Former President tack50]

The vote on the objection is now closed

Aye: 6 (Griffin, S019, Ninja, thr33, tack50, Pyro)
Abstain: 0
Nay: 0
Not voting: 3 (lfromnj, Dipper Josh, Zaybay)

So the objection has been overruled and we shall proceed to a final vote

[Former President tack50]

Councillors, a FINAL vote is now open on the following legislation

Transportation improvement Bill

This bill calls for building a tolled closed system mega highway with a toll of $0.30 per mile, from Philadelphia to Buffalo

It also calls to add tolls to the following interstate highways at the price of $0.40 per mile: I-80 (PA), I-95 (RI), I-70 (IN)

It also calls to add express toll lanes at the price of $0.75 per mile on the following highways in the New York City area (I-495, I-278, I-95 (until Exit 14), I-695, I-295) and in the Philadelphia area (I-276, I-95, I-76 (until Schuykill Haven)

Please vote AYE, NAY or Abstain
This vote shall last for 48h or untill all Councillors have voted

[Former President tack50]

Nay

[Former President tack50]

The FINAL vote on LC 2.2 Transportation Improvement Bill is now closed

Aye: 1 (S019)
Abstain: 0
Nay: 8 (tack50, Ninja, Pyro, thr33, Griff, lfromnj, Dipper Josh, Zaybay)
Not voting: 0

So this bill is rejected

Honestly, I'm impressed that we managed to have a full attendance vote with all 9 Councillors voting, congratulations everyone!

[Former President tack50]

Suffice it to say, there is no reason why this bill should have come to a vote.
Councilors, I would urge you to table your bills if they have zero chance of passage.

Well, thing is, the Chancellor is the only one who can table a bill in Lincoln

I guess I will notify you whenever tabling is needed instead of pushing for a final vote that is soundly rejected